Tucker Confronts Mike Huckabee on America’s Toxic Relationship With Israel

The Mike Huckabee interview, and the truth about America’s deeply unhealthy relationship with Israel. (00:00) Why We Were Interrogated in Israel (25:38) Why Did Huckabee Meet With American Traitor Jonathan Pollard? (40:26) Why Are There Still Classified Epstein Files? (1:30:50) The Killing of Christians in Gaza (1:59:01) Why Is the US Sending Israel So Much Money? Paid partnerships: Masa Chips: Get 25% off with code TUCKER at http://masachips.com/tucker Paleovalley: Use code TUCKER & get 20% off your first order at http://paleovalley.com Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at http://Hallow.com/Tucker Brooklyn Bedding: Get 30% off sitewide with promo code TUCKER at http://brooklynbedding.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Tucker Carlson?

  We're about to play you an interview we did with U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, two days ago in Israel. In general, it's never worth talking about the backstory behind an interview. It's kind of not the point. Makes it about the interviewer, not the person being interviewed. For one thing, for another, it's not that interesting most of the time. And for another, it's kind of off the record. You know, the other person hasn't consented to you telling the story. So in general, we don't do that. Who'd want to hear that? Let the interview speak for itself. But in this case, we want to tell you just a few things about how this interview came about because they are pretty interesting,

• 1:11Tucker Carlson?

  revealing, and now weirdly relevant, apparently. So this interview with Mike Huckabee came about a couple of weeks ago. On Twitter, one of our producers showed me. He said something to the effect of, "You're talking to Middle Eastern Christians, Tucker Carlson. Maybe you should talk to me. Why don't you come do an interview?" And I paused for a minute. I've thought in the past about trying to interview Mike Huckabee, whom I've known for over 30 years and worked adjacent to at Fox. And I had mixed feelings about it, mostly because it's hard, if you're me, to interview Mike Huckabee because of just the personal affect. Mike Huckabee is jovial, comes off as friendly. He's a grandfather. When annoyed, I can be nasty in interviews.

• 1:56Tucker Carlson?

  And so it's, it takes a lot of self-control to interview someone like Mike Huckabee. Not, not because I hate him, but because it's hard to ask him tough questions and not come off as a jerk, which I often am. So, but I thought in this case, yeah, I should definitely do this. For a bunch of different reasons. Mainly, the United States is moving toward a big war, a real war with Iran, a regime change war. The biggest war we've had since the invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003. And Israel is driving that. We are doing this at the behest of the demand of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. So it seems like now is the time for more Americans to understand the dynamic between

• 2:38Tucker Carlson?

  the US and Israel and to call attention to that. And for another, Huckabee's behavior in the last year in Jerusalem as the ambassador has been very, very striking. He famously had a meeting with the most damaging spy in American history. And why did he do that? He hadn't been asked by anybody up until two days ago, why did you do that? So I, I wanted to be able to ask him that. And so we accepted and then began the usual negotiations about when and where the interview would take place. And we were constrained because we weren't expecting this. We wanted to do it quickly, but we had tons of travel. So we threw them a date, them being the American Embassy.

• 3:23Tucker Carlson?

  We can do it on this date. And they were very accommodating. And then the question became, well, where do we do it? And maybe a Christian holy site? We said, we've got to get in and out really quick, got to be back to do a bunch of other interviews, but we've got this timeframe. They said, well, why don't you do it at the US Embassy? Or maybe we set that great US Embassy. So the US Embassy is about an hour, 55 minutes from the big airport in Israel, Ben Gurion. So we said, okay, what about security? Now, at this time, the Israeli government, the Prime Minister included, were attacking me in this show. Netanyahu suggested I was a Nazi, for example. And so we thought, you know, how about security? Obviously.

• 4:05Tucker Carlson?

  Not because the Israeli government necessarily would do something bad, because there are a lot of people in Israel who think, because they've been told, you know, that I'm an anti Semite, or a Nazi, or want to kill Jews. This kind of crazy overstatement, all untrue, obviously, but it would be good to have security. And I should say, having done interviews on six out of seven continents over 35 years, I'm not very security conscious at all, never really feel uncomfortable, but this seemed like a prudent thing to do. So we were told by the embassy spokesman, no, we're not going to provide security. And so we said, okay, I guess we'll get private security. But could we get someone from the embassy to ride in the car with us from the airport to the interview?

• 4:49Tucker Carlson?

  And we were told, no, could we get what they call a control officer, just an American, with us, in an official capacity, as an embassy employee with us? No, quote, "For legal reasons, we can't do that." So I thought, well, that's very strange. And then they said, but instead, we're turning you over to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, MFA, and they're going to arrange everything in Israel. Well, this was within 24 hours of the deputy foreign minister, Sharon Haskell, releasing a video calling me an anti Semite and an enemy of Israel. This was the person who the embassy was telling us was going to handle all of our travel. So it was at this point that I just called.

• 5:31Tucker Carlson?

  I called the spokesman for the US Embassy in Israel, and I said, okay, I'm an American citizen, responding to an invitation from the American ambassador to Israel, and by the way, I'm the son of a US ambassador, so I have some sense, not an expert, obviously, but I have some sense of how this works, and I think that the US ambassador has discretion to send somebody from his office to the airport to accompany someone in. I think that's right, and if it's not right, tell me what law you're talking about, what legal reason you're talking about that would prevent that. And now you're sending me over to a government official who's been calling me a Nazi? That's the person in charge of getting us to the embassy? Like, what is going on here?

• 6:14Tucker Carlson?

  And the embassy spokesman, who's totally nice, said, well, this was a decision of someone called David Brownstein, he's the DCM, the number two guy in the embassy. And I said, well, put him on a text exchange. Like, what is going on here? And so Bernstein got on and didn't answer the question, but basically said, well, okay, let's just do the interview at the airport in the diplomatic reception area at the airport. Okay, I said, um, we're going to be flying in from Europe. And we had to be in and out really quickly. So at great expense, we chartered a plane, which I never do because I'm cheap. But we did. And so then I said to them, okay, I want to send you the flight information, tail number, flight number, route.

• 6:59Tucker Carlson?

  And I want you to pass that on to the Israeli military, just so, you know, they don't mistake us for an Iranian drone or something. I mean, not to be paranoid, but again, this is probably the most violent country in the world, Israel. Is there a country in the world where a higher percentage of the population has held a gun or shot someone? I mean, I don't know the answer, but this is a country famously waging a seven-front war with all of its neighbors. You know, so this is also the country that bombed the USS Liberty, knowing, we know this from NSA intercepts, that it was an American ship. So don't, you know, just send the military our flight information and, uh, you know,

• 7:41Tucker Carlson?

  we can all just sort of know it's on the record and we can all calm down a little bit. No, they said, the US Embassy said, no, this is, your flight is not a matter of concern to the Israeli military. I said, okay, now, now you're making me uncomfortable. Isn't the airspace of Israel, the purview of the Israeli military? Aren't they in charge of maintaining the integrity of their airspace when you fly over the country of Israel or any country? Its military keeps track of you because that's their job. So why wouldn't you send our flight information to the Israeli military? You're making me nervous.

• 8:18Tucker Carlson?

  I sent this exchange, I took a screenshot of it and sent it to a bunch of people, including in the US government, because I'm not a paranoid person and I'm not a jumpy person. I said, "Is this weird behavior?" "Yeah, it's really weird behavior." All of them said that. So I got pretty aggressive and just said, "Look, you gotta do this." "Okay." And they, to their credit, got back to us and said, "Yes, we will do that." But I just thought that was completely bizarre and menacing, by the way. Now, at the same time, and I think this is relevant, certainly it goes to motive, I was attempting to set up a meeting, as I have been for the past three months, with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, who I've dealt with a lot in the past and

• 9:02Tucker Carlson?

  who denounced me as a Nazi in public, a member of the woke Reich. And why was I trying to do that? Not an interview, I knew he wouldn't sit for an interview, but I wanted just to meet with him in person. One, to show that I'm willing to go to Israel, I don't hate Israel as a country. But two, just to say directly to him, "This is bad, this should be de-escalated, this kind of rhetoric doesn't help anybody," calling people, calling me specifically, "a Nazi and an anti-Semite," when you know that I'm not. By the way, if I was, I would just admit it. I've said many times, "I think antisemitism is immoral, it's against my religion," just as hating any group on the basis of their bloodline is immoral.

• 9:44Tucker Carlson?

  So the new year is here, but that does not mean you've got to overhaul your whole life, despite claims to the contrary. You don't have to take drastic measures, make a few changes here and there, and you'll be a lot better off, and you can start with the snacks in your pantry. Now, products from standard American chip brands are, let's be honest, pretty repulsive, filled with chemicals that make you feel heavy and bloated, they don't even taste that good, they're not good for you. We recommend an upgrade with Masa Chips. Masa is the easiest way to eat clean without feeling like you're on a diet. The chips contain three ingredients, that's it, organic corn, sea salt, 100% grass-fed beef towel, and that is it. No seed oils, no mystery chemicals, just food, actual food. And they're amazing, and you feel great after, you don't feel weighed down.

• 10:29Tucker Carlson?

  Particularly enjoyed the Cobanero flavor lately, but they're all great. You want to give them a try? Visit masa chips.com, M A S A chips.com slash Tucker. Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order, or you can click the link in the video description, or you can scan the QR code to claim this outstanding offer. And so I really pushed hard for this meeting and I called a lot of people who know him and who were in regular contact with him. In fact, I went to go see some of those people directly. Please, can you help me get a sit down for five minutes with Benjamin Netanyahu?

• 11:08Tucker Carlson?

  And I probably called or met with six, seven, eight, maybe more people on this question. People in official capacities, people in the Israeli government. I know, I know a number of people in the Israeli government, people in Israel, a friend of mine in California, who knows him. I mean, I really, really tried and I did so for two reasons. One, because there's a threat to my family. The Israeli government and Netanyahu himself tried to punish two members of my family. I won't be more specific, but actually punished two members of my family. Because he is, he has said in public many times, believes in blood guilt, Amalek. You know, when someone commits a crime against you, you punish not just him, but his family, his bloodline. There's no idea that's less Western than that, more anti-Christian than that.

• 11:54Tucker Carlson?

  Christians reject that. Netanyahu doesn't. That's why he's talking about Amalek. And he was going after my family, literally. So I felt very threatened by that. But moreover, I think it's bad for my country to have people using that kind of language. Round them up, bring them to the camps, gas chambers, Nazis, antisemitism. It scares the heck out of people. It makes people crazy and hysterical. And certainly in my case, none of that is true. I hate collective punishment. I hate attacking people on the basis of their bloodline. I hate antisemitism and anti weight racism and all of this, or any kind of racism, period. And I've said that a lot.

• 12:34Tucker Carlson?

  So using that kind of language against someone who is not fundamentally your enemy, who just, in my case, I want Christians in areas controlled by Israel to be treated with dignity, to have rights, and I don't want the US government involved in a war, a regime change war with Iran. Those are my priorities, and I've said them out loud, I have no secret agenda. So to attack me as a Nazi for saying that suggests a total unwillingness to compromise. You know, anyone who doesn't agree with us 100% must be destroyed, his family must be attacked, my family, and must be written off as a Nazi.

• 13:17Tucker Carlson?

  Well, when you do that, it makes people hysterical, it increases the temperature to a point that, you know, someone's gonna get hurt if you keep talking that way, and it's just bad. It's bad for the United States, it's bad for the world. So I wanted to deliver that message. I finally wound up talking to a guy called Yoram Hazony, who is an Israeli who famously organizes the American national conservatism conferences. And I said to him, "Look, you're having a national conservatism conference in Jerusalem this summer, you asked me to speak at the first, I think the first, national conservatism conference in the United States." And I did, obviously I believe in national conservatism, America first, I think every

• 14:00Tucker Carlson?

  nation should put its own people first, that's why you have governments. And I would like to speak at this one, and moreover, I would like you to ask your friend Benjamin Netanyahu to meet with me. And we had this sort of long back and forth, and it was, "No, you cannot speak at the national conservatism conference because you're an anti-Semite." "No, I'm not," I said. "Yes, you are," he said. And I said, "Well, I really would like to speak to Bibi to kind of de-escalate this." And he said, "It would not be in his political interest to meet with you." It's almost verbatim what he said, "Therefore, no." So then I realized, you know, you're dealing with people who are unreasonable, who are inflexible, who are in fact fanatical. And then add to that, of course, that my tax dollars are paying them.

• 14:43Tucker Carlson?

  It's all pretty distressing. So that was the backdrop behind our very brief and highly intense trip to Israel. So we show up on Wednesday, flying from Europe, again, at great expense, and show up at the diplomatic terminal at Ben-Gurion Airport, where this interview is going to take place, which is bizarre in itself. Filthy building. The windows are so dirty in the terminal, you can't see out them barely. There's like exposed drywall. The whole thing is depressing and grim. There's litter outside, like, what is this? This is the diplomatic terminal in Israel. I thought that was very strange. Having been in a lot of diplomatic terminals, I've never seen a radder one.

• 15:27Tucker Carlson?

  We go in and Huckabee's there, and of course, he's totally friendly, as he always is. Very, very friendly guy and cheerful, and we sort of chat. And the whole place is filled with these guys in t-shirts, thuggish-looking guys in t-shirts who are some kind of security. So we do the interview. You're about to watch it. It's very long, two and a half hours-ish, and I try my hardest to be friendly. I think I kind of succeeded. You can judge for yourself. But I really got the sense, and again, you can decide as you watch it, that Huckabee was not able to answer any of the questions, but also not really in charge.

• 16:10Tucker Carlson?

  You really got the feeling of a guy sort of trying his best to repeat the talking points, but very constrained, like unable to say certain things. Not because those things might harm the interest of the US government. He was happy to attack, for example, the US military and say they're more brutal than the Israeli military. Okay. But unwilling to say certain things because they might reflect poorly on the Israeli government. And you sort of thinking about this for a second, you're like, wait, you're the US ambassador. You're our representative to a foreign country. Why is your red line criticism of that country? Shouldn't you be representing us? And it was very obvious he was representing the Israelis. Obvious. And again, you can judge for yourself.

• 16:55Tucker Carlson?

  But anyway, so we do this interview. It was cordial. And at the end, we're set to fly out. We have a time, we have to get out. And the plane is sitting right outside and we're ready to go. And for some reason, the Israelis still have our passports. There are five of us there. And four of us are flying out on this plane. One's flying out commercial with our gear. So my business partner and I, we're standing there. We've never left the airport, never went anywhere. But our two producers have spent the night before in Tel Aviv. And they're called into rooms and given the third degree. Now, keep in mind, they're about to get on a plane and leave. In fact, we're late. We have to get out of there.

• 17:40Tucker Carlson?

  We have a slot to get out. And security, whoever this is, won't let them go. So I don't really know what's going on at this point. I'm like, where are our guys? We've got to get out of here. So one of them comes out and he says, that was the weirdest experience of my life. They asked me questions about the interview. Who did you speak to? Keep in mind, this was like eight feet from where we did the interview. Well, the US ambassador, I'm like Huckabee, what did you talk about? Why did you ask those questions? Was it a hostile interview? And of course, everything in the diplomatic terminal is taped. Everything in Israel is taped. It's a police state. It's a surveillance state, obviously. You go to Israel, they put software on your phone. Everybody knows this. They're constantly spying on you, more than probably any other country. And so they know the answers to these questions.

• 18:25Tucker Carlson?

  But they're asking my producer, like, where do you work? How many people work there? Do you go to the office? Where is the office? What are their names? They're doing like an intel op and humiliation exercise on my producer. This isn't security. We're leaving right now. And they're holding his passport. The interrogator is holding the passport in his hand as he's asking these questions. So he's telling me this. And I said, this is the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. Huckabee's gone by this point.

• 18:59Tucker Carlson?

  You're an American citizen who's just had a conversation with the US ambassador, and some thug is demanding details of that conversation? And I hope he didn't answer. And he's like, no, I didn't. I don't know what to say. Meanwhile, our last guy, the youngest man who was traveling with us, our last producer, is still in a room being questioned. So I pull over one of the guys and said, we gotta get out of here. So I don't know what this is about. It's outrageous. And, you know, there's nothing I can do about this point, but we gotta go. And this woman comes up to me and says, look, let's just go. We're gonna bring you to the plane and he'll come later. I said, no, it's my producer.

• 19:40Tucker Carlson?

  He's being interrogated, asked totally over the top, fully inappropriate questions that have nothing to do with security at all. You know, pull up your website. Show us your text exchanges with other people on your staff. What are your politics like? And again, what did you say to the US ambassador? And what did he say back to you? Those are not relevant questions if you're trying to keep your country secure. Those are intel questions. And they're over the top. And I said, I want this guy out now. Let's go, you know, we gotta go. And they said, no, no, just leave him here. We'll bring him to the plane later. Twice they told me that. Just leave your guy behind. No, I don't think so. So I was enraged by this. Get on the plane.

• 20:25Tucker Carlson?

  We get a text from a reporter who somehow knew that this had happened. I have no idea how. I had no interest in publicizing it, actually. There was, you know, a long trail that showed that the US embassy had been coordinating against us in a, in a public relations battle before we even got there. You know, they were leaking that we demanded to do it at the airport because we were afraid to go into Israel. We're cowards. Okay, we're cowards. Right. And so I just said to the reporter by text, you know, they pulled my guys into a room, interrogating them. This is outrageous, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

• 21:08Tucker Carlson?

  The interesting thing is, I never heard from Huckabee or anybody to this moment from the US embassy about what security did to my producers. They didn't ask us. And instead Huckabee went out and called me a liar.

• 21:25Tucker Carlson?

  So it raises, again, the question, who exactly is Huckabee working for? We're American citizens in a foreign country. He's our ambassador. He represents our country. We pay his salary, but he's taking the side of the foreign government without even calling to say, "Hey, what happened to you at the airport? Did you get hassled? Did your guys get hassled?" No. He just immediately repeats their lies without even consulting us. So like, what are we looking at here? We're looking at the reality, which is, if you're an American in Israel, you can be certain that your government will take the side of the Israeli government and not your

• 22:10Tucker Carlson?

  side. And really, is that so different from the experience of Americans in the United States? Can you be sure that your government will take your side over the Israeli government? No, of course not. They will always take the Israeli government's side over yours. And that's the core problem. Even if you support a war with Iran, I think we, really, the most pressing issue for Americans is that we kill the Ayatollah or whatever, you still have a fair expectation that your government, because it is yours, you pay for it, it exists to serve you and for no other reason, you have an expectation that your government will take your side against a foreign government.

• 22:54Tucker Carlson?

  But the daily lived reality, the obvious truth, visible to every single American, is that's the opposite of reality. In fact, if you criticize Israel in your country, your government will work to censor you. If there's a standoff between you and Bibi, you know whose side your government's going to take, Bibi's side. That is not sustainable. That is too humiliating. It's too clearly an inversion of the natural order. Your government exists for you, not for a foreign government. But that's not how we live in this country or in Israel. So that's what we learned. And one last thing.

• 23:40Tucker Carlson?

  Israelis apparently went, maybe probably with the help of Mike Huckabee, went to the surveillance tape inside the diplomatic terminal and pulled some clip. And of course, getting all their little bots online to promote it of me with my arm around somebody to show that actually I'm lying about what happened.

• 24:05Tucker Carlson?

  That person was our driver who drove us from the plane to the terminal, a short drive. Very nice guy, good guy, Israeli guy. And right when we arrived and he said, could I get a picture? Of course. He's a nice man. So I just put my arm around him, took a picture. That's what that is. That was before the interview was before our producers were hassled by the thugs and asked ridiculous questions. So before any of this happened. So that's just another installment of the propaganda war. Thought we'd give you the backstory on that. People seem to be more inflamed, not just emotionally, but physically and more tired than ever. And food is part of the reason. Bad food. Oh, tastes good, but not good for you.

• 24:47Tucker Carlson?

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• 25:31Tucker Carlson?

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• 25:58Speaker 02

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• 27:52Tucker Carlson?

  So with that, here is our interview with Ambassador Mike Huckabee.

• 27:59Tucker Carlson?

  I hope it's informative. Ambassador, thank you very much for having us, for inviting me. I was grateful to be invited.

• 28:06Speaker 04

  Well, thank you.

• 28:07Tucker Carlson?

  I was grateful, because I don't like all the name-calling. I've engaged in some of it. I want to apologize for that. But in general, I don't think people should be going immediately to motive, calling each other Nazis or anti-Semites. I said I hate the Christian Zionists. I lost control of myself. Of course, I don't. I've apologized for that. I have problems with my anger. And so I just want to apologize to you, since you are a Christian Zionist.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  You and I have known each other for over 30 years.

• 28:33Tucker Carlson?

  Over 30 years! That is totally true.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  Back when you were in Little Rock.

• 28:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. The newspaper.

• 28:38Speaker 04

  It's why I wanted us to have a conversation, talk to each other, and not about each other. And I appreciate very much your coming here to...

• 28:45Tucker Carlson?

  Of course. And I'm only staying a couple hours, unfortunately, because I kind of shoehorned this in. But I hope that I will be back soon. And I hope that I can come back soon, because I want to... I actually like, despite what you may hear, I actually like the country. I've been here a lot. And there are a lot of things I love about it. And I want to talk to people in it for like a week.

• 29:05Speaker 04

  Good.

• 29:06Tucker Carlson?

  And get a better sense of it. So I want to ask you, everyone I've talked to in preparation for this has said the same thing. Jonathan Pollard?

• 29:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:16Tucker Carlson?

  Can... I'm just going to show the name to you and have you explain.

• 29:19Speaker 04

  No, I'm glad you asked.

• 29:20Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 29:21Speaker 04

  Interestingly, there's been a lot of things about it. You're the first person who has asked me about it, which I find amazing. So I'm glad you did.

• 29:29Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 29:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, the very first person.

• 29:30Tucker Carlson?

  Good, well, it's better to like, hear it.

• 29:32Speaker 04

  Sure. I met Jonathan Pollard two times. Once, I was making a speech in Jerusalem. This has been a few years ago. His wife was still alive at the time. And he was there. And someone introduced me to him and his wife. I said hello to them. That was it. Hi, nice to meet Esther, his wife. And that was it. I went and made my speech, and I left. Later, his wife passed away here in Israel. And I sent him a note and just said, "I'm sorry to hear about your wife. I remember meeting her at the hotel, and sorry to hear it." He then asked, "Could he come and see me?" He wanted to come and thank me for being kind to him. He came to the embassy. I think we met for maybe 30 minutes.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  We had a nice, pleasant visit. The funny thing was, the New York Times reported that it was a "secret" meeting. Tucker, if you've ever been to the US Embassy, you would know. There's no such thing as a "secret" meeting at the US Embassy. There are cameras everywhere. You walk through Marines, you walk through security, you walk through the front office, and there's a dozen or more people that are gonna check you out when you come. And before you get there, you're gonna have to give us your passport information. You're gonna have to be vetted and screened and all of this stuff. So the idea that it was secret was ludicrous. The whole idea is, look, Jonathan Pollard did something that was terribly wrong. He sold secrets. He shouldn't have done it. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison and spent 30...

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Actually, he was, I think, yeah, I think he was sentenced to maybe more than 30 years, but he spent 30 years in prison. Most people convicted of something similar, which was one count, I believe, would have spent two to four, but he spent 30. I don't have a problem with him spending 30, because I think what he did was despicable. I'm not defending anything about what he did. But even people like the former director of the CIA, a number of other senators on the Senate Foreign Relations or the Senate Intel Committee, said that he should be allowed to leave and move to Israel if he wanted to. So it, to me, was not as big a deal that I had this, basically, courtesy meeting.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  He wanted to thank me for being nice to him when his wife died. That's pretty much the...

• 31:49Tucker Carlson?

  You advocated for his release when you ran for... I remember it, in 2011, long before he had served 30 years. And I agree with you that there are a lot of people languishing in prison, you know, in our country and in this country, in many countries, you know, for longer periods than they deserve. And I think it's a Christian impulse to want to see them free. But this was the greatest traitor in modern American history who sold our battle plans, sold our battle plans against the Soviet Union, our main enemy in the Cold War, to the... The Israeli government, which according to our Reagan CIA director, Bill Casey, then gave them to the Soviet Union. So this was the most profound betrayal of the United States in my lifetime.

• 32:34Tucker Carlson?

  Why advocate for that guy's release before he serves his full sentence?

• 32:39Speaker 04

  If that were the case in 2011, it would have been because I had a number of friends that suggested that he had more than served time, and he didn't want to live in the US anymore. He wanted to live in Israel. And, but my association with him, again, I had never met him until I met him in Jerusalem at a hotel. That was the first time I had ever encountered him.

• 33:01Tucker Carlson?

  I'm friends with a million bad people, or I've talked to a million bad people.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm sitting here with you. I mean, come on.

• 33:07Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, Jesus, hate with tax collectors. So I, trust me, I do not judge people who are friends, or know, or enjoy the company of immoral people, because it's not an endorsement of their immoral behavior. Pollard is different. I think, once you become US ambassador, the representative of the President of the United States and the United States of America in a foreign country, and then you invite not only the most damaging betrayer in our lifetimes, but also a guy who continues to advocate for betrayal. So he gave an interview, as I know you know, in 2021 to Israeli media, in which he said, "I would encourage Jewish Americans with security clearances to spy for Mossad against

• 33:51Tucker Carlson?

  their own country, the United States, because," and I'm pretty much quoting him, "all Jews should have dual loyalty." That's a, I mean, that's not repentance. That's not someone who feels bad about what he did. That's someone who's encouraging American Jews to betray their country? That's pretty heavy, don't you think?

• 34:09Speaker 04

  Oh, I do, and I disagree with that, wholeheartedly. I think, let's remember, it was President Trump who probably facilitated his departure. And... I'm certainly supportive of President Trump, I think you are.

• 34:23Tucker Carlson?

  Pollard's not, he called him a madman after your meeting.

• 34:26Speaker 04

  That's why I say Pollard is not for me the real issue. It was the fact that he did something that was despicable. I'm not denying that, of course he did. And he paid dearly for it, 30 years in prison, and he should have. That's what he should have done, no question about that.

• 34:42Tucker Carlson?

  But why meet with him in the US Embassy? Your colleagues said they were shocked, they said...

• 34:47Speaker 04

  Who were the colleagues that said they were shocked?

• 34:49Tucker Carlson?

  Quoted on background in the New York Times. I think the meeting was in August. This could all be fake, that's why I'm asking you.

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Well, the same New York Times said it was a secret meeting. And I'm telling you, there's no such thing as a secret meeting in the US Embassy.

• 35:02Tucker Carlson?

  Do you see why the US Ambassador hosting a convicted betrayer of his own country who's encouraging Americans to continue to betray their country would seem shocking?

• 35:12Speaker 04

  Well, I would say that it wasn't that I... You make it sound like I'm hosting a meeting. I simply met with him. I meet with people all the time, some of whom...

• 35:20Tucker Carlson?

  They can just walk in without a...

• 35:21Speaker 04

  No, they have to have an appointment, of course they do.

• 35:23Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, so it is hosting him then, I think.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know if it was hosting, but it was certainly... He was able to come to the US Embassy to have a meeting at his request. I did. And frankly, I don't regret it. I met with a lot of people over the course of the time I've been here, and we'll meet with a lot more.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 35:44Tucker Carlson?

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• 36:26Tucker Carlson?

  even if you behaved in deeply unholy ways, and we all have. Mercy still awaits you.

• 36:34Tucker Carlson?

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• 36:49Speaker 00

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• 37:48Tucker Carlson?

  There've been Americans in prison in Israel. There have also been, and there continue to be, dozens and dozens and dozens of sex offenders, accused sex offenders from the United States who fled to Israel, including one recently, an Israeli government official who was caught trying to molest a 15-year-old girl, and fled to Israel and is not going back to the United States to stand charges for attempted molestation of a child. Have you advocated for the Israeli government to return him to the United States?

• 38:20Speaker 04

  I'm not familiar with that case. It has not come to us at the embassy. So I'm not aware. Is this the person in Nevada?

• 38:27Tucker Carlson?

  That is correct.

• 38:28Speaker 04

  Okay, I heard about it.

• 38:29Tucker Carlson?

  In Clark County, I would imagine so.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I heard about it, but I heard about it through open-source media. It was never something that was presented to us, but I would have no problem with him being extradited back to the US.

• 38:39Tucker Carlson?

  You're the president's and our country's representative in the state of Israel, so I think it would fall to you to advocate with your friend, the prime minister, to say, "Wait a second. We have a very close relationship. We're obviously the single largest source of outside funding for this country." How can you take an accused child molester and shield him from American justice? Send him back to the United States? Have you ever had that conversation?

• 39:04Speaker 04

  No, because the Prime Minister would not be the proper person in Israel.

• 39:08Tucker Carlson?

  That may be right, pardon my ignorance.

• 39:09Speaker 04

  That would deal with an extradition. It would go through their court system. And so the Prime Minister is separate, very similar to what we have in the US where there is a separation of powers. So it would go through something other than the Prime Minister.

• 39:23Tucker Carlson?

  Have you advocated to the courts, to judges, to anybody in the Israeli justice system?

• 39:28Speaker 04

  There has never been a request for me to engage in that. I would be happy to do it if the White House sent a message to me. I do work for the President. I serve at his pleasure. If anyone at the White House were to say to me, "Would you please go and make a case for it?" But probably, if that were to happen, it wouldn't come through the embassy as much as it would likely come from the Department of Justice at the US in DC. They would make the request. They might involve us, but they very likely would not.

• 39:57Tucker Carlson?

  Does it seem strange to you that people accused of child molestation in the United States are allowed to have refuge within the borders of our closest ally? That doesn't make sense to me.

• 40:12Speaker 04

  Well, I would say that...

• 40:13Tucker Carlson?

  If you've molested an American child, shouldn't you be required to stand justice?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  It's an allegation. Let's be clear. One of the things about our system of jurisprudence, you're innocent until you're proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So if the charges are there, should he be extradited? I would say so.

• 40:29Tucker Carlson?

  The charges are there.

• 40:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay, so they should be. But that's a Justice Department decision, and they're the ones who should be pursuing it. To my knowledge, they haven't, they certainly haven't engaged the US Embassy over.

• 40:39Tucker Carlson?

  Why would the Israeli government harbor fugitives from justice in the United States?

• 40:44Speaker 04

  I'm not sure that...

• 40:46Tucker Carlson?

  There are dozens and dozens and dozens. In fact, there's an Israeli group that keeps track of them, that is dedicated, Jewish-Israeli group dedicated to combating the molestation of children, and keeps a long list, and you can look it up.

• 40:58Speaker 04

  Tucker, I hope you're not saying that you think the Israelis support the molestation of children.

• 41:03Tucker Carlson?

  Obviously, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the Israeli government allows shields. Accused child molesters from Justice in the United States.

• 41:11Speaker 04

  I'm not sure I could say that that's something that is provable. I don't know. But I am not aware that the Israeli government is shielding people.

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• 42:03Tucker Carlson?

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• 42:31Speaker 00

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• 43:01Speaker 06

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• 43:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they are, and I'll give you a per— and I just want to make sure that I pronounce this— this man's name correctly. It's Tom, I believe, Alexandrovich? Um, I think that's right, and I've written it down, but of course, my handwriting is so terrible, I can't, uh, read it. But, yes, he is an Israeli, I believe, cybersecurity official who was at a conference in Las Vegas last year and was caught up in a sting, uh, designed to catch people soliciting sex from children. He was one of a number of people arrested for this. He was arraigned and charged. And then, two days later, he fled to Israel and did his first hearing by Zoom. He was allowed, for some reason,

• 44:13Tucker Carlson?

  to leave for a foreign country, having already been charged for a— attempted molestation of a child. And he remains here now. And the— and there have been many news stories about this. And I just wonder if you would ask the Israeli government to send—to put him on a plane and send him back to face justice for attempting to molest an American child. It doesn't seem complicated.

• 44:36Speaker 04

  No, I wouldn't mind doing that, but I want to find out if the Justice Department in the US has already sought to extradite him. Is there anything in process? I don't know.

• 44:45Tucker Carlson?

  Why wouldn't they seek to extradite?

• 44:46Speaker 04

  I have no idea. That's a question for the Justice Department.

• 44:49Tucker Carlson?

  I have many questions for the Justice Department. Like, why are millions of Epstein files still classified? Why do you think that is?

• 44:56Speaker 04

  I have no idea. I haven't kept up with that. I've never met the man. I don't know him.

• 45:01Tucker Carlson?

  You haven't kept up with the Epstein disclosures?

• 45:02Speaker 04

  I mean, only from a distance. I'm 6,000 miles away from DC these days.

• 45:06Tucker Carlson?

  You attacked me personally for suggesting that Jeffrey Epstein had ties to Mossad. I'm not saying he worked for Mossad. I don't think—we know that. But there's no question that he had extensive contact with CIA.

• 45:18Speaker 04

  I think you said it— a turning point event. Everybody knows Jeffrey Epstein.

• 45:23Tucker Carlson?

  I said, "Everyone thinks." And it turns out, everyone was right, that he did have—

• 45:26Speaker 04

  I'm not sure everyone was right or everyone thinks.

• 45:29Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but you said that I was lying, and I don't want to make this about me—

• 45:33Speaker 04

  I don't think I said you were lying, Tucker. I don't recall.

• 45:35Tucker Carlson?

  I'm just saying, why don't we release all the files, and then we don't need to guess?

• 45:40Speaker 04

  I got no problem with that. Go ahead.

• 45:42Tucker Carlson?

  Would you call on it— well, because you weighed in on it and said that this was not true, when of course—

• 45:47Speaker 04

  I said there was no evidence.

• 45:49Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there's quite a bit of evidence, but you haven't apparently bothered to read any of the files, is that what you're saying?

• 45:54Speaker 04

  I have not read the Epstein files, apparently you have.

• 46:00Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they're on the internet.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  But when you say that there's, that everybody knows that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossadist.

• 46:06Tucker Carlson?

  That everyone believes that.

• 46:07Speaker 04

  I don't think everybody does. I don't know.

• 46:09Tucker Carlson?

  Well, everyone knows that he had contact with, and by the way, not just Israeli intelligence, American intelligence, which is much more distressing for me. I'm not Israeli, I'm American. I don't want my government having any contact with someone like Jeffrey Epstein. So the shame

• 46:23Speaker 04

  I wouldn't either.

• 46:24Tucker Carlson?

  is on the United States, as far as I'm concerned, just to be totally clear about that. Everyone's very sensitive about the Israel connection, not at all sensitive about the US connection, which I find very revealing. We should care about what our government does first, I think. But since you weighed in on it and said there's no evidence, I'm surprised that since that evidence has been open to the public for a month, since you've already weighed in publicly on this question, that you've made no effort to evaluate that evidence. Why is that?

• 46:55Speaker 04

  I just told you, I was certainly not aware that there were some specific allegations. I knew about the former prime minister, but I don't know him. I'm not sure I ever met him in my many times. You know, I've been to Israel over 100 times since 1973. The first time I came here was 1973, July. And it's almost 53 years of coming and going to this country. So I know the country well, I know a lot of people here. But I don't know everything, and I don't know everybody, but I do a lot of people.

• 47:25Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, no, and I can see your love for it, and I think that's great. But I'm talking about the US government and its responsibility to, you know, there's a lot of complaint about conspiracy theories and everyone, you know, he's a hater. Everyone's assigning motive. But there's a way to end these conversations very quickly with facts, and I'm highly confused by

• 47:50Speaker 04

  Have you brought this up to the president?

• 47:53Tucker Carlson?

  Uh, no, I don't, I don't work for him. I've said this many times.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  I know, you don't work for him, but you, you go to the White House and you see people there. You and J.D. Vance are very good friends. So have you brought this up to them?

• 48:04Tucker Carlson?

  I have brought this up in public many times.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  It's not on my portfolio, but apparently it's highly, very strongly on your mind.

• 48:11Tucker Carlson?

  Child molestation is a significant concern for me?

• 48:14Speaker 04

  Well, it should be for everybody, but if you're particularly...

• 48:17Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there's an accused, there is a charged child molester.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  But I'm saying if you are very involved in the details of this...

• 48:23Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not.

• 48:24Speaker 04

  And you think it's the U.S. government that's hiding and shielding somebody, then bring it up to the people that you personally know.

• 48:29Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I don't, I don't think that. I know it because the Justice Department has said, "We have millions of documents we're not releasing."

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Why are they not releasing them?

• 48:36Tucker Carlson?

  I, I'm asking you as a U.S. government official, what the answer might be.

• 48:40Speaker 04

  Well, but I'm a government official at the embassy in Jerusalem that has not one thing to do with the Justice Department and what they're investigating on any given day.

• 48:50Tucker Carlson?

  Again, and I don't want to argue or talk in circles, but you were the one who brought it up and said it's absolutely not true.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  I was only responding to what I've heard you say.

• 49:02Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but now that you know there's evidence and we can settle this debate, you haven't looked at the evidence and you're not pushing for the release of the total corpus of evidence. And I'm confused because I want to believe that your goal is to get to the truth and the fastest way to do that is by releasing the evidence, don't you think?

• 49:19Speaker 04

  You suggest that I can release the evidence?

• 49:21Tucker Carlson?

  I'm suggesting that you could call for it right now.

• 49:23Speaker 04

  Well, I, fine, call for it. I would, let's, let's have it all open. I thought it was being all opened up for everything I knew.

• 49:30Tucker Carlson?

  And once it's open, I hope you'll read it because it's, it's really interesting and then it puts to rest a lot of the, the debate and it ends the name-calling because we can say, "Here it is right there." And we don't have to call people names. We can just assess the documents.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  Let me ask you... But you bring it up, I hope you will bring it up to people at the White House that you know.

• 49:49Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I've brought, I've brought, I'm bringing it up right now. I'm bringing it up now. And I'm asking, I just want to say this one last time, as the U.S. ambassador to Israel, I hope that you will make a formal request to the Israeli government to send every accused sex offender in this country back to the United States to face justice. And I don't understand why that hasn't been done. I, I'm confused.

• 50:17Speaker 04

  Well, we'll try to clear up all the confusion that we have.

• 50:19Tucker Carlson?

  Well, if someone's been accused of trying to molest a child, I think it's...

• 50:22Speaker 04

  Then certainly, and I'll check with the Justice Department because it is a DOJ issue and it would be handled through DOJ, the US, to the court systems in Israel. That's how it would be handled.

• 50:34Tucker Carlson?

  But the first step is the Israeli government saying, "Yes, we will allow you to extradite this person back." The person is being shielded by the government. That's why the person's here. That's why he fled here, so he wouldn't have to stand trial for trying to molest a child. I want to get to the... As I said at the outset, I said something awful that I regret, that my wife barked at me about. I lashed out at Christian Zionists and evangelicals, and I just want to say again that I'm sorry. I've always liked them because they're pro-life and they're also really nice people, so, for the third time, I'm sorry that I said that. I think part of my problem was I don't understand the theology. And you are not a fake Baptist minister, you're an actual minister.

• 51:17Tucker Carlson?

  You had a church for many years, you're an actual theologian, so... And I mean this with sincerity. I hear people say, "Those who bless Israel will be blessed." I know it's a reference to Genesis. I don't understand the connection between that concept and modern Israel and the geopolitical world. And so I'm going to stand back and ask you two points.

• 51:38Speaker 04

  Well, let's first define, because, you know, from my days as a debater in high school and college, one of the things I knew, you didn't start the debate till you defined the terms.

• 51:46Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  Let's define the terms.

• 51:48Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  What is a Christian Zionist?

• 51:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 51:51Speaker 04

  What does that mean to you? What does it mean?

• 51:54Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. It's the people who call me a Nazi for asking what Israel means? I mean, that's kind of my problem. I don't even know!

• 52:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, but here's the point. If you say a Christian Zionist is a person who has a brain virus and is guilty of heresy, that's a pretty big charge.

• 52:10Tucker Carlson?

  I know! I shouldn't have made it. I shouldn't have made it. I made it out of anger and ignorance, and I'm...

• 52:15Speaker 04

  So, Christian, I think we can agree, is somebody who follows Jesus Christ...

• 52:19Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 52:20Speaker 04

  ...has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, believes in his death, burial, resurrection... Has repented of one's sins and have accepted him as one's savior.

• 52:30Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 52:31Speaker 04

  Christian. Define that. Zionist. A Zionist simply means a person who believes that the Jewish people have a right to have a homeland where they have security and safety. Did you believe that the Jews have a right to live in Israel? Do you believe the Jews have a right to live in Israel?

• 52:51Tucker Carlson?

  I...

• 52:52Speaker 04

  That would be a Zionist. That's all a Zionist is.

• 52:54Tucker Carlson?

  I have a million questions about what all of those terms mean.

• 52:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:59Tucker Carlson?

  But conceptually, I wish Israel no harm. I don't want to see them very...

• 53:04Speaker 04

  Do you want them to have a place where they could live with safety and security?

• 53:08Tucker Carlson?

  So I saw this recently in an extremely telling exchange between the lieutenant governor of Texas, who I know and have always liked, and a woman I don't know, never met, who's on the Religious Liberty Commission or something. And she said, "I'm a Catholic, but I'm not a Zionist." And they had this ferocious exchange. And he kept saying, and everyone on the panel seemed to keep saying, "You have to believe in Israel's right to exist." I've never kind of questioned, just for the record, but it did raise two questions I think are really important, and I hope you'll answer them. One is, where does that right come from?

• 53:45Speaker 04

  I would think it comes from, essentially, you could say it comes from the Bible. I would say that it does. But it comes also from a long iteration of historical precedents going to the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It comes from the League of Nations, 1927. It comes from the United Nations, 1947.

• 54:05Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 54:05Speaker 04

  The Declaration of Independence of the Israel State in May of 1948. They were immediately attacked. They won the war. They were attacked again in 1956. They won the war. They were attacked again in 1967 by five countries. They won the war. They were attacked again in 1973 in the Yom Kippur War. They won the war. The point is, does Israel have a right to exist? They also had wars in 1982 in Lebanon.

• 54:29Tucker Carlson?

  I remember.

• 54:29Speaker 04

  The Dafadas, two of those. They've had war in 2014.

• 54:33Tucker Carlson?

  Lebanon again in 06? I was there. No, I'm very familiar with the modern history of the state.

• 54:37Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 54:37Tucker Carlson?

  Pretty familiar, I think.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  But design is simply means somebody who believes that Israel has a right to exist. Now, the question is, do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

• 54:46Tucker Carlson?

  I guess. I mean, I want Israel to exist. Well, no, but I want to know what that means. So like, do other countries have a right to exist?

• 54:52Speaker 04

  Well, they do exist.

• 54:54Tucker Carlson?

  Do they have a right to exist? You keep saying Israel has a right to exist. And I want to know what other countries have a right to exist.

• 54:59Speaker 04

  They have a legal right because every international body in the last 100 years has said the Jewish people have a right to their indigenous homeland. So that's a legal right. Do they have a biblical right? I would say that, yes, but you may say they don't.

• 55:13Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. I'm actually sincerely interested in finding out what you mean by a biblical right. But first, to the legal right. Does any other country on the planet have the same right that Israel has to exist?

• 55:26Speaker 04

  Well, you could say, does Jordan have a right to exist? When it was Transjordan and the Brits came and divided up the Middle East and they gave some land to Jordanians and they gave some land to the Saudis and they gave some land to various Middle Eastern countries. And it was all carved up. And the French gave Lebanon its right to exist. Do they have a right to exist?

• 55:48Tucker Carlson?

  Do they?

• 55:49Speaker 04

  Well, why not?

• 55:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so that's my... So every country...

• 55:53Speaker 04

  Does the US have a right to exist?

• 55:54Tucker Carlson?

  I'm asking you.

• 55:55Speaker 04

  Okay, and I'm telling you, I think the US has a right to exist.

• 55:58Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 55:59Speaker 04

  We came here, we came there, we're in Israel now talking. But does the US have a right to exist? Does anyone question whether we have a right to exist?

• 56:07Tucker Carlson?

  I don't... Yeah, but I... Of course, I'm for America, you know?

• 56:11Speaker 04

  Good for you.

• 56:12Tucker Carlson?

  But I... So every current country on the map has the same right to exist that Israel has? Is that what you're saying?

• 56:20Speaker 04

  I think what we're saying is that when a country has established itself and it is following international law, it has been deemed by numerous bodies that it is indigenous to its homeland, as Israel is. This is its homeland. It goes back 3,800 years to the time of Abraham. It's not that the Jewish people just showed up here in 1948 and said, "We're gonna have some land here."

• 56:46Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on, so those are two different tracks, and I just want to make sure that we separate them, so I understand each one separately.

• 56:51Speaker 04

  Alright.

• 56:51Tucker Carlson?

  So you're saying there's the modern legal framework, and so you said a country that abides by international law has a right to exist?

• 56:58Speaker 04

  I would say that that is a part of its existence.

• 57:02Tucker Carlson?

  Would the inverse be true, that a country that does not abide by international law forfeits its right to exist?

• 57:07Speaker 04

  Not necessarily, if it has the capacity to stay and make its case known. But there have been Jewish people in this land, in this very land, for 3,800 years.

• 57:19Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so, but you're saying as the modern nation-state, with borders and a military and a knesset, and just all the kind of trappings of a modern country, all of which I support, that country has, every country on the planet, has the same right as Israel to exist, because it does exist. Is that what you're saying? I'm just trying to understand the concept here.

• 57:44Speaker 04

  Well, I think what we're trying to get to is Christian Zionism, and you've taken this way off the road here.

• 57:50Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know that I have, I don't mean to. Christian Zionism is a separate thing, but I just keep hearing people say Zionism is the belief that...

• 57:57Speaker 04

  That's the fundamental argument that's going on. Does Israel have a right to live in their indigenous, ancient, historical land? A land that has been affirmed throughout international organizations? A land that has direct ties to the Jewish people?

• 58:14Tucker Carlson?

  I just want to know if this is a universal principle. I guess that's what I'm getting at, because if it's not, then it's meaningless to me, because as a Christian, I believe in universal principles. Something is right for everyone, or it's wrong for everyone. We don't believe in special cases, I don't think.

• 58:29Speaker 04

  But here's the question, if the Jews didn't have this land, would the Jews have a right to any land?

• 58:34Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know, I'm not attacking the Jews. I'm asking if this applies to every people and every nation. Does every nation have the same right to its own homeland, to its own physical land, that you say Israel does?

• 58:48Speaker 04

  I feel like we're in a rabbit hole here.

• 58:49Tucker Carlson?

  No, I think it's a very straightforward question. Does that right extend to other countries other than Israel?

• 58:54Speaker 04

  But the most important thing that is going on in our culture right now is whether or not the people that are yelling in the streets from the river to the sea, whether that that's a legitimate point of view to say that there should not be a Jewish homeland. There should not be a Jewish state.

• 59:09Tucker Carlson?

  You'll never hear me say that. I just want to know.

• 59:11Speaker 04

  I know you haven't said it, but that's the argument.

• 59:13Tucker Carlson?

  It's one of the arguments going on globally. And the United States, excuse me, has a pretty narrow view, I would say, in our media culture, what's happening around the world. There are plenty of countries having this debate. Stonehenge is a lot older than the first temple in Israel, and it was built by the same people who live there now. It's the same people. And they are being pushed off their island and outnumbered by people from other places. And so in Great Britain, in Ireland, which is also a country with a nation of people, a race, if you will, that is being displaced, replaced.

• 59:49Speaker 04

  Who are they being replaced by?

• 59:50Tucker Carlson?

  Immigrants.

• 59:51Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 59:51Tucker Carlson?

  From other places.

• 59:52Speaker 04

  I just wanted to clarify, because I was one of the...

• 59:54Tucker Carlson?

  Well, just as a demographic matter, it's just like you can look at the numbers, it's not controversial, just look at the numbers. There'll be a minority in their country. And their people have been there longer than the Jews have been in Israel, and so they're having this debate too, that's all I'm saying. And lots of places are having this debate.

• 1:00:10Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:00:11Tucker Carlson?

  So, does that principle apply to everyone? Or is it specific just to Israel?

• 1:00:17Speaker 04

  I think it applies specifically to Israel. It applies to anyone who can prove that they have some connection to the land, and connection to the history, and connection to international law. But Israel, I think, does have an extraordinary...

• 1:00:29Tucker Carlson?

  Why do you keep bringing up international law? So if, again...

• 1:00:32Speaker 04

  No, but let me finish this, sir. Because here's the point, we're talking about Christian Zionism. The idea that as a Christian, I believe in both the Old and the New Testament. Why wouldn't I? I'm a person of the book. There are 80 million evangelical Christians in the United States. What makes us who we are is our adherence to the Scripture. Our belief that the Bible, all of it, not part of it, but all of it, is the word of the living God.

• 1:00:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 04

  So if I believe in the Old and the New Testament, I do believe that... There is a very specific call to the Jewish people that started with Abraham. And he called him out of what is now modern day Iraq, said, "Come where I send you." He came, this is the land, Genesis 12, 3. He says, "I will bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you." In Genesis 17, he looks out of the world, he says, "Look, and this is where I'm giving you the land." And since that time, there have been people living in this land,

• 1:01:31Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:01:32Speaker 04

  Connected to that moment of history. So there is a historical connection that is unbroken.

• 1:01:38Tucker Carlson?

  I, I, you've said that, and I want to ask you what that means a little more specifically, if that's okay, but first, let me just say that you could say the same thing of Britons who've been there in their land longer.

• 1:01:48Speaker 04

  Is anybody trying to tell the Britons, the Brits, they can't live there anymore?

• 1:01:52Tucker Carlson?

  No, what's happening is-

• 1:01:53Speaker 04

  But they are saying that to the Jews.

• 1:01:56Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, okay, but I just wonder if you would extend, extend the same sympathy or the same principle? You don't, you seem like this is, you think I'm trying to trap you? I'm not, I'm at all trying to trap you. It'd be as simple as saying, "Native Britons have the same-"

• 1:02:08Speaker 04

  I've got no problem with the native Brits having their land.

• 1:02:11Tucker Carlson?

  Having the right to their land.

• 1:02:12Speaker 04

  But my point is, I don't know that there is a biblical connection for the Brits.

• 1:02:15Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:02:15Speaker 04

  But I would say-

• 1:02:16Tucker Carlson?

  So that's what it comes down to.

• 1:02:17Speaker 04

  To take that off the table. And I think there's still a basis for the Jews having this little bitty strip of real estate.

• 1:02:24Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not even arguing with you, I'm just trying to, at all. I'm just trying to understand what it is that you're saying, because it's, it's not obvious to me. And maybe it's an IQ problem, but I'm having trouble understanding this. But let me just go back to, just clarify one thing. You've brought up international law at least twice, maybe three times, as a basis for Israel's legitimacy. If Israel was out of compliance with international law, whatever that is, would it be less legitimate?

• 1:02:51Speaker 04

  Depends on if the law and the way it's applied is legitimate. There are some applications of so-called international law that are not legitimate.

• 1:02:58Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:02:59Speaker 04

  Look at the ICC or the ICJ.

• 1:03:00Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  Utterly ridiculous. One of the reasons I'm so grateful President Trump and Secretary Rubio are pushing hard, trying to get rid of the ICC and the ICJ, is because they have become rogue organizations that are no longer really about an equal application of law and justice.

• 1:03:17Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know enough about it to say if that's true or not. But I'm interested that you yourself appeal to international law as a basis if Israel's legitimate.

• 1:03:28Speaker 04

  Well, what I'm looking at is the whole of the last 100 years.

• 1:03:31Tucker Carlson?

  The Balfour Declaration is not exactly international law, by the way. It was a letter, I think.

• 1:03:35Speaker 04

  It was maybe not law, but it was a declaration. It was an assumption and a declaration that was done by Lord Balfour in Great Britain. At that time, this land was under the British mandate. And he said the Jews should have the land that was theirs from 3,800 years ago. It was simple as that.

• 1:03:57Tucker Carlson?

  Right. And I'm not debating that. I'm just... It was not international law. It was a colonial power saying, okay, here's how we're gonna divide up the world after...

• 1:04:05Speaker 04

  But then later, it was international law, under the League of Nations, under the United Nations. And then, because of the victories that Israel had against those who tried to annihilate them, and it wasn't just that they were trying to take a little piece of their land, they tried to annihilate them.

• 1:04:16Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:04:17Speaker 04

  And there is still, to this day, the shouts of "From the river to the sea." And Tucker, that means only one thing. Not the shrinking of Israel, but the annihilation of Israel.

• 1:04:27Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think you can say that you know what it means, actually, because you don't know what's in people's hearts. So, why don't we just deal with the facts? Maybe some people mean it to mean that.

• 1:04:36Speaker 04

  I know it's in their mouths, I know it's in their minds.

• 1:04:38Tucker Carlson?

  But I'm not... Look, you'll never hear me say that. What you will hear me say is I'm confused by what the definitions are. So, let's go through this. You've appealed to Genesis. Genesis 15 says it's Abram, it's pre-Abraham, it's Abram.

• 1:04:51Tucker Carlson?

  Receives from God the news that his descendants will inherit the land and you tell me as the theologian if I'm getting this wrong, but from the Euphrates to the Nile. I think that's right. And that would include like basically the entire Middle East. That would be the Levant, so that would be Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, it would also be big parts of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

• 1:05:17Speaker 04

  Not sure it would go that far. I mean, it would be a big piece of land, but here's the point.

• 1:05:21Tucker Carlson?

  It would be a lot of places that are now countries.

• 1:05:23Speaker 04

  But this particular area that we're talking about now, Israel, is is a land that God gave through Abraham to a people that he chose. It was a people, a place, and a purpose. We can look at it that way. Christian Zionism, I want to go back because that's where we started on this.

• 1:05:44Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not going to let you off on this because you have said it three times that God gave this land to this people. And so it is entirely fair for me with respect to ask, what land are you talking about? Because I just read Genesis 15, as I have many times. And that land, I think it says, from the Nile to the Euphrates, which is, once again, basically the entire Middle East. So God gave that land to his people, the Jews, or he didn't. You're saying he did. What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land? Because you're appealing to Genesis, you're saying that's the original deed.

• 1:06:23Speaker 04

  It would be fine if they took it all, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here today.

• 1:06:28Tucker Carlson?

  What would be fine, well, it's exactly what we're talking about today.

• 1:06:30Speaker 04

  But here's what I don't think you're...

• 1:06:31Tucker Carlson?

  You think it would be fine if the state of Israel took over all of Jordan?

• 1:06:34Speaker 04

  They don't want to take it over. They're not asking to take it over.

• 1:06:37Tucker Carlson?

  But you're saying that the reason that Israel is legitimate, has this inherent right to exist is in part because God gave it to his people. And I am going to the same Bible that you're referring to and noticing that that is a huge piece of land. So if God gave them that land, then they have a right to take it now by your definition, unless I'm missing something completely.

• 1:06:57Speaker 04

  I think you're missing something because they're not asking to go back to take all of that, but they are asking to at least take the land that they now occupy, they now live in, they now own legitimately. And it is a safe haven for them.

• 1:07:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, may I ask though, because you're appealing, you're explaining what Christian Zionism is and your theological beliefs. And I think you just said it would be fine with you if the state of Israel took all of Jordan, all of Syria, all of Lebanon.

• 1:07:28Speaker 04

  That's, that's really not exactly what I'm trying to say.

• 1:07:31Tucker Carlson?

  I'm asking, is that what you said? I thought that's what you just said.

• 1:07:33Speaker 04

  It was somewhat of a hyperbolic statement in that, you know, if that's what you feel like that we're talking about, but it isn't. We're talking about this land that Israel, the state of Israel, now lives in and wants to have peace in. They're not trying to take over Jordan, they're not trying to take over Syria, they're not trying to take over Iraq or anywhere else. But they do want to protect their people, and they're not trying to take over Lebanon.

• 1:08:01Tucker Carlson?

  But you're saying that as a religious man, as a Christian, a Christian Zionist, you agree with a lot of religious communities here in Israel, that the justification for this country is theological. It's a, it's a contract between God and his people. And I'm telling you that that contract includes a tract of land that is much larger than the current nation-state, the current order.

• 1:08:23Speaker 04

  So you may be a bigger Zionist than even the Jews are that live in Israel.

• 1:08:26Tucker Carlson?

  I'm trying to understand the implications of your theology for geopolitics.

• 1:08:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Tucker Carlson?

  Because you're saying that the present government of Israel has a moral right to take over what are now other people's countries.

• 1:08:37Speaker 04

  No, I didn't say that.

• 1:08:39Tucker Carlson?

  Then what are you saying?

• 1:08:39Speaker 04

  I'm simply saying that the people who live in Israel, I think, have a right to have security, have safety. They have a right to be able to live in this land that they have a connection to for 3800 years.

• 1:08:54Tucker Carlson?

  I told myself, and I said a prayer that I would not get annoyed, but as someone who is, you know, the father of daughters, when I see child molesters hiding in Israel and escaping American justice, I think I have a right to safety in my country too. So you can understand that, I think, most people feel they have a right to safety. I do think Israel has a right to safety, and I, I hope that for them. And I'm sincere. But I'm an American, and I have a right to safety in my country too.

• 1:09:24Speaker 04

  Of course you do.

• 1:09:24Tucker Carlson?

  Don't you agree? And I think, so, but I just want to get to this point.

• 1:09:29Tucker Carlson?

  If Israel were to say, "God gave us in Genesis 15, all of Lebanon, all of Syria, all the way up to Iraq," would that be legitimate, in your view?

• 1:09:41Speaker 04

  I don't think in this particular day and time, they're asking for it.

• 1:09:45Tucker Carlson?

  Would it be legitimate?

• 1:09:46Speaker 04

  I'm not sure that it would be.

• 1:09:47Tucker Carlson?

  Why? Because you just said that God gave it to them.

• 1:09:50Speaker 04

  Because I think that there is an understanding that the people of Israel today, now if they end up getting attacked by all these places, and they win that war, and they take that land, then, okay, that's a whole nother, whole nother discussion. But you and I started out...

• 1:10:06Tucker Carlson?

  So if they win in a war, it's okay?

• 1:10:08Speaker 04

  We started talking about something simple: Christian Zionism.

• 1:10:11Tucker Carlson?

  But it turns out it's not simple? Because I don't, the core of Christian Zionism, you said, and I'm quoting you, is the understanding, the belief, the theological understanding, that Jews have a moral and legal, we went through the legal...

• 1:10:24Speaker 04

  And biblical.

• 1:10:25Tucker Carlson?

  Moral deriving from the biblical, from the promises. In our Bible, which we share with the Jewish people, the first part of the Old Testament, that it derives from God's promise to the Jews. And so I have two questions. What are the borders of that? And who are those people in 2026? And you're not the first person I've asked, but you're the most reasonable, most gentle, most theologically informed person, so I'm really hoping for an answer. The first question was the borders. I can't get an answer what those borders are. So I'm gonna give up. But the second question is every bit as pressing, which is, who are the people? Who are the modern, yes, who are the descendants? So we know, and I believe, and I agree with you,

• 1:11:09Tucker Carlson?

  as a Christian, that God promised this land, from modern-day Iraq to modern-day Egypt, to this people, the Jews, to Abrams, actually, not to the, to Abrams descendants, as it says in Genesis 15. Who are his descendants now and how do we know who they are?

• 1:11:27Speaker 04

  I think they're the Jews and we know who they are because they've always been a Jewish people. There has been an unbroken line of Jewish people and they've lived in this land for 3,800 years. Sometimes not very many of them because they were chased out all over the world, they were hunted down. They were almost annihilated during the Holocaust. They came back. To this day, Tucker, they represent... You know how many Jews there are in a whole world?

• 1:11:50Tucker Carlson?

  Please, I understand. First of all, the greatest genocide of Jews no one ever mentions was by the Romans, where they were literally banned from Jerusalem for 500 years.

• 1:12:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:12:01Tucker Carlson?

  And it's all awful and I'm opposed to all of that. I'm opposed to mass killing of anybody, period.

• 1:12:07Speaker 04

  I like to hear you say that.

• 1:12:09Tucker Carlson?

  I mean it.

• 1:12:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I believe that.

• 1:12:12Tucker Carlson?

  My question is, and it's not a bumper sticker answer, it's a sincere answer. How do we know? Because what you're saying is that certain people have a title to a highly contested region. They own it in some deep sense. So I think it's fair to ask, who are they and how do we know? So the current Prime Minister's ancestors weren't from here within recorded history. He has no deed. Bibi Netanyahu, on one side, is a family from Poland. They're from Eastern Europe. So how do we know that he has a connection to the people who God promised the land to, Abram's descendants? How do we know that?

• 1:12:49Speaker 04

  Well, if you take the genealogies that come not only from the Old but the New Testament, you see that there is a historical connection through the entirety of the Old and the New Testament that details the Jewish connection to this land.

• 1:13:03Tucker Carlson?

  Does that include Bibi's family? How do we know that if his family comes here? But how do we know it's the same people? No, why is that crazy? If you say to me...

• 1:13:13Speaker 04

  If they speak the same language, if they worship the same God, if they follow the same Bible, if they follow the same cultures and traditions, and they always pray next year in Jerusalem, and they pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and they pray facing toward Jerusalem, does that not give you a little bit of a clue as to who they are?

• 1:13:29Tucker Carlson?

  Let's go through those things because I would like to have a rational conversation. This is the conversation I've wanted. Bless you. Thank you for doing this. Let's just go through those things.

• 1:13:38Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:13:38Tucker Carlson?

  So, one of the things I admire most about Israel is they resurrected a dead language in 1948. Good for them.

• 1:13:44Speaker 04

  Well, they really didn't resurrect it. It was existent.

• 1:13:48Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I'm not, that's not, that's a compliment, I'm not slighting.

• 1:13:51Speaker 04

  No, no, no, but it is the first time in all of human history that a language has survived through this length of time. It's, I would call it, you might not, but I would call it a miracle. One of many.

• 1:14:02Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:14:03Speaker 04

  That you can attribute to this.

• 1:14:04Tucker Carlson?

  Netanyahu, I think it's wonderful as someone who loves language. Netanyahu's parents did not speak Hebrew. Okay, they didn't live in this region. Netanyahu, the founders of this country, were mostly secular. Some of them were avowed atheists. They were not praying for the peace of Jerusalem. They weren't praying at all because they didn't believe in God. There's no genealogy linking their families to the people of this land 3,000 years ago. There are none. So, how do we know, since they didn't share a language, they didn't share a religion, they had no religion whatsoever, how do we know that they had a right to come here from Eastern Europe and

• 1:14:43Speaker 04

  But they were scattered.

• 1:14:44Tucker Carlson?

  Take the land.

• 1:14:45Speaker 04

  They were scattered to Eastern Europe.

• 1:14:46Tucker Carlson?

  I understand that.

• 1:14:47Speaker 04

  They were scattered all over the world. There were many in Ethiopia, they were in Russia, they were in Poland. They were throughout Asia. Jews were all over the place, but they were still Jews. They were still Jews.

• 1:14:59Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so then, let me get to the nub of the question, since, again, a lot is at stake, a lot of money is at stake, land is very valuable. Israel has a lot of resources. By the way, if you're accused of a crime, you can hide here. That's a pretty good passport to have. It's a good thing, right? So, who's entitled to it? I don't understand, and you're very discouraged in the United States from asking this question for some reason, it's a totally rational question.

• 1:15:22Speaker 04

  No, I'm not discouraged.

• 1:15:23Tucker Carlson?

  No, you're not discouraged. Others do. You're like the only person I can have this conversation with. Governor will just be like, "Shut up, Nazi!" It's a foundational question. Are you speaking of an ethnic group? Or a religious group?

• 1:15:35Speaker 04

  Well, I think you're looking at, for many people, it is religious. There are people who may not have a deep religious connection to Judaism, but they're still Jews.

• 1:15:45Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so it's an ethnic category.

• 1:15:46Speaker 04

  It is ethnic, but it is also religious. It is rooted in religion. You can't take it out of it.

• 1:15:52Tucker Carlson?

  And then how can an atheist...

• 1:15:54Speaker 04

  Well, I will tell you this, there are some people who say, "I'm Christian." They never go to church. They never pray. They never read their Bible. They don't tithe.

• 1:16:01Tucker Carlson?

  But they're not entitled to citizenship on the basis of that.

• 1:16:04Speaker 04

  Well, but I'm saying, they still call themselves Christian, even though they identify in that way.

• 1:16:09Tucker Carlson?

  Here's the difference. You're saying that people who have this identification have a deed to a huge chunk of land on the Mediterranean, okay? So there's, you know, it's a right. You keep telling me it's a right. And so it's totally fair to say, if you come to my house and say, "I've got the title to your house," I get to ask, "May I see it? Where'd you get it?" And that's exactly what happened here. People from Europe, Eastern Europe, came here, in a lot of cases atheists, and kicked out a lot of people who lived here.

• 1:16:43Speaker 04

  They bought land. They did not just throw people out.

• 1:16:47Tucker Carlson?

  They bought a lot of land, there's no question about that.

• 1:16:48Speaker 04

  They did buy a lot of land.

• 1:16:49Tucker Carlson?

  But they also, in 1948, kicked out a lot of people.

• 1:16:53Speaker 04

  In the war?

• 1:16:55Tucker Carlson?

  It was a war, I agree. I'm not, look, I'm not, I don't want to re-litigate the history, I'm just saying it's a fact.

• 1:16:59Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:17:00Tucker Carlson?

  Including a lot of Christians, a lot of Christians, wound up fleeing. And they lost their homes, and they've never been allowed back. And all of this was justified on the basis of this identity that forms, that is the ticket to the right that you keep referring to. So my question is very simple, and I'm gonna wait patiently for an answer. Does this right derive from religious affiliation? Or from genetics?

• 1:17:24Speaker 04

  And I would say it's both. But I would also say that when you said that Christians were kicked out, Tucker, Christianity is growing in Israel.

• 1:17:31Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but...

• 1:17:32Speaker 04

  And there is a big lie that goes out there, but let me finish this, because I keep hearing that Christians are really not treated well in Israel. That's simply, that's a lie.

• 1:17:43Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there are lots of different...

• 1:17:44Speaker 04

  It is a lie. There were 34,000 Christians in Israel in 1948. There are 184,000 Christians here today.

• 1:17:50Tucker Carlson?

  And by Israel, what are you counting?

• 1:17:52Speaker 04

  You're talking about the land?

• 1:17:55Tucker Carlson?

  What territory are you counting? You're counting Israel proper? Are you counting the West Bank as well and Gaza? I mean, when you say Israel, those numbers apply to what landmass?

• 1:18:05Speaker 04

  It would be in Israel proper.

• 1:18:07Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:18:07Speaker 04

  There are 184,000. Now, I'll tell you where Christians are not doing very well. They're not doing very well in the Muslim-controlled countries. There's almost no Christians in Qatar, for example, except those who live in the Christian ghetto, who are the service workers.

• 1:18:23Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sorry. Look, I don't want to argue with you. There are many more Christians in Qatar than there are in Israel.

• 1:18:28Speaker 04

  That's not true.

• 1:18:29Tucker Carlson?

  It actually is true. And I refer you to Wikipedia, Mr. Ambassador.

• 1:18:32Speaker 04

  Wikipedia, the...

• 1:18:34Tucker Carlson?

  I refer you to the government of Qatar, the government of Israel. These are knowable facts.

• 1:18:38Speaker 04

  In Jordan, the numbers are down. In Syria, the numbers are down. In Lebanon, the numbers are down.

• 1:18:42Tucker Carlson?

  I'm just saying, there are about twice as many Christians.

• 1:18:45Speaker 04

  But they live in the enclave. They are not native Qataris.

• 1:18:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. We're mixing so many different categories here. I'm just saying, I get things wrong all the time. You've just gotten something wrong. And I think it's important to acknowledge it. There are many more Christians in Qatar than there are in Israel. Fact.

• 1:18:59Speaker 04

  How many?

• 1:19:01Tucker Carlson?

  Now, you caught me. I don't know. I can look at my phone, but I was just there. And there are many more. Like, whatever. But I just want to get to the point that forms the basis of this whole conversation, which is, who has a right to the land? And you said it's a mixture of religion and ethnicity. Because, as I noted, and you agree, many of the founders, maybe the majority of the founders of modern Israel, did not believe in God at all. So they were not religious Jews. They weren't religious at all. They were atheists. They were atheists, I believe them. So that suggests it's ethnic. But it's also true, as you well know, because there was a famous court case about this, that ethnic Jews who convert to Christianity do not have the right of return. That was settled by the Israeli Supreme Court.

• 1:19:44Tucker Carlson?

  I'm very confused. So that would suggest it's not ethnicity? Because you invalidate your Jewishness by converting to Christianity?

• 1:19:52Speaker 04

  There are a number of Messianic Jews who live in Israel.

• 1:19:56Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I'm aware of that.

• 1:19:58Speaker 04

  It's a significant number.

• 1:19:59Tucker Carlson?

  But you're not contesting what I'm saying, because it's a very famous court case.

• 1:20:04Speaker 04

  The right of return has to do with your mother, your grandmother, it has to do with family ties. There is a lot of... Sure, ethnicity is a big part of the right of return.

• 1:20:14Tucker Carlson?

  Great.

• 1:20:15Speaker 04

  To make Aliyah, to come to Israel, to live here.

• 1:20:18Tucker Carlson?

  Then if both of your parents are Jewish, and you have an ethnic right to live, you are one of Abram's descendants, but you convert to Christianity, how is it you don't have the right to return? I'm totally confused.

• 1:20:30Speaker 04

  But I know a number of people who have returned as Christians, but have Jewish history or Jewish ethnicity.

• 1:20:38Tucker Carlson?

  Are you saying that Jews who convert to Christianity have a right, a legal right to return?

• 1:20:44Speaker 04

  I know that they do. Whether... When you say, "Do they have a right to return?", do they prove?

• 1:20:50Tucker Carlson?

  It's a legal category, as in in government.

• 1:20:52Speaker 04

  Which is by their family history, their grandmother, their mother, and there are many aspects of that.

• 1:21:00Tucker Carlson?

  I've read it. I think at this point it's one Jewish grandparent.

• 1:21:03Speaker 04

  But I know that these are people who are Christian, and they came here, made Aliyah, they had Jewish blood, Jewish history, they were Christian, Messianic, but they came here, and they were welcomed here.

• 1:21:15Tucker Carlson?

  And they were given full legal rights?

• 1:21:16Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 1:21:17Tucker Carlson?

  And a passport?

• 1:21:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Tucker Carlson?

  So clearly, that's not... It's not true that you invalidate your right of return by converting to Christianity. That's just false.

• 1:21:26Speaker 04

  I'm not aware of that. I know that there are a number of Christians here. I go to church with Christians every week here.

• 1:21:31Tucker Carlson?

  Of course. But do you have a right to come and say, "I am an ethnic Jew, even though I practice Christianity, therefore I have every bit as much right to move into a settlement in the West Bank, or into East Jerusalem, or anywhere I want"? Galilee, anywhere, because I'm returning to the land of my forefathers. I have a legal right in the state of Israel, even though I've converted to Christianity. You're saying that's true?

• 1:21:56Speaker 04

  I'm saying I know people have done it. Now, can I tell you what the law specifically is? I'm not sure because I'm a Christian. I'm not, I don't have any Jewish roots, so therefore, I cannot quote you the law. If you want me to do that, I'll look it up and tell you.

• 1:22:10Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it really matters, because you're saying, in fact, people in the United States are being called antisemites. A lot of them, including me, because they somehow don't believe that Israel has a right to this land.

• 1:22:24Speaker 04

  Do you think Israel has a right to this land?

• 1:22:26Tucker Carlson?

  No, you haven't defined what the land is, and you haven't defined who Israel is. So I really don't know.

• 1:22:31Speaker 04

  It is the land they're living in now, the borders that they have.

• 1:22:34Tucker Carlson?

  The borders are moving. The borders have moved in the last year.

• 1:22:37Speaker 04

  What do you mean the borders have moved in the last year?

• 1:22:39Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they are the 1967 borders. I'm including, you know, the west.

• 1:22:43Speaker 04

  East Jerusalem and today in Samaria.

• 1:22:47Tucker Carlson?

  What are the borders of Judea and Samaria?

• 1:22:49Speaker 04

  Well, you basically take the Jordan River, and it's west of the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, to the Lebanon border, and Israel did have control of the Sinai. They gave that to Egypt. They had control of it.

• 1:23:05Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:23:06Speaker 04

  They gave it away in 1979 in the peace agreement.

• 1:23:10Tucker Carlson?

  But, okay, whatever you call it, the land that was taken from Jordan in 1967, you call it Judea and Samaria, there's a significance to that that I don't fully understand. I'm not against it.

• 1:23:23Speaker 04

  It's the biblical.

• 1:23:24Tucker Carlson?

  It's the biblical.

• 1:23:25Speaker 04

  Eighty percent of the Bible happened in Judea and Samaria.

• 1:23:28Tucker Carlson?

  But we've also established that the Bible gives Jews the right to occupy the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. So I'm very confused by why we've shrunk the land and why we're dis-

• 1:23:39Speaker 04

  Israel has shrunk the land. They have made that decision. That's why, they gave away Gaza.

• 1:23:45Tucker Carlson?

  Now's my, now's, now's the part for the real question.

• 1:23:50Tucker Carlson?

  Abram's descendants are the ones who have the right to have this land, correct?

• 1:23:54Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:23:55Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. Why don't we do genetic testing on everybody in the land and find out who Abram's descendants are? It's really simple. We've cracked the human genome, we can do that. Why don't we do that? Would you be against doing that?

• 1:24:07Speaker 04

  I have no idea what that would prove. I mean, maybe it would be...

• 1:24:12Tucker Carlson?

  What do you mean? It would prove who Abram's descendants are and who has a right to live here and who doesn't, according to the theology that you yourself just explained. And so, I'm very confused as to why we don't do that, if you believe the theology that you've just explained to me.

• 1:24:28Speaker 04

  Would we do that all over the world?

• 1:24:30Tucker Carlson?

  Well, this is the only country in the world that you've said has this covenant with God, that this people have a moral and legal right to the land.

• 1:24:40Speaker 04

  What about people who convert to Judaism? Would they have a right?

• 1:24:43Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you've just... You've just said that it's not...

• 1:24:47Speaker 04

  I mean, there are converts to Judaism, so...

• 1:24:48Tucker Carlson?

  You just told...

• 1:24:49Speaker 04

  They can make aliyah, they may not have DNA.

• 1:24:51Tucker Carlson?

  You've just told me that it doesn't matter... You told me moments ago, I'm trying to keep track, that it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in God or whether or not you practice Torah Judaism or rabbinic Judaism, which is something else that I don't even know if we should... I don't even know what that means. But it doesn't matter whether you're, quote, "a religious Jew" or not. What matters is that you are part of the Jewish people to whom God gave this land that extends from the Nile to the Euphrates. And so, if you believe that, wouldn't you want to know with a burning passion who those people are? And because of science, we can now know who those people are. So, why aren't we finding out?

• 1:25:36Speaker 04

  I guess you could propose a DNA test for everybody who comes here, everybody who lives here.

• 1:25:41Tucker Carlson?

  I'm comfortable with secular nation-states where it's... None of this is done on the basis of blood. I'm uncomfortable with that, I'll just say that.

• 1:25:49Speaker 04

  But there are people who may not have bloodlines but who have converted to Judaism. Are they going to be able to live here? Are you going to kick them out?

• 1:25:57Tucker Carlson?

  By your standards, they can't live here. Because you've just told me that they have a right to live here because God gave them the land because they're the descendants of Abram.

• 1:26:06Speaker 04

  They're the descendants of Abraham. But if they're the spiritual descendants of Abraham and they've now decided that they're converting to Judaism?

• 1:26:16Speaker 04

  Then do they have a right to live in Israel?

• 1:26:18Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there's a whole legal literature in Israel on that question. And my understanding is that certain types of modern Judaism qualify a person, and other types don't. Is that your understanding?

• 1:26:34Tucker Carlson?

  I don't believe that people converted, and I could have this wrong, but I know people who've faced this personally, people. I don't believe people who've converted in a Reform synagogue have the right of return. I don't think that is, because I know people who've married into Jewish families, and they find out they don't have the right of return. So that is perplexing to me.

• 1:26:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know, you know, my experience is a little different than yours. I know people who have definite Jewish connections, family relations, but now they're Christian. Some are not necessarily practicing Jews. They're not, they're more secular Jews, as you've discussed. But they come back here.

• 1:27:18Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I'm not against that. I'm just, I'm just wondering, since you have, since you began this conversation by asking me, did I think they had a right to come here?

• 1:27:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:25Tucker Carlson?

  And my question was, on what basis do they have the right? And you said, because God granted it to them.

• 1:27:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I also said, because that there should be a land where Jews could live in peace and safety.

• 1:27:36Tucker Carlson?

  And I asked you what a Jew was, and you couldn't answer it. You said, it partly is religious, but it doesn't have to be. It's partly genetic, but it doesn't have to be. And so that, you can see why I'm confused.

• 1:27:45Speaker 04

  I think I was very clear, that being Jewish is an identification, either through blood or through faith, that you're Jewish. It may be that you're a blood Jew, but you don't necessarily practice Judaism, just like there are people who say they're Christian, but they don't do a thing to demonstrate what Christianity is.

• 1:28:04Tucker Carlson?

  There are a lot of bad Christians, including me, some of the time, a lot of the time. But I don't have a right to real estate on the basis of my claim of Christianity.

• 1:28:12Speaker 04

  You don't have a right to real estate if you're talking about a specific parcel. But if you're talking about a land, I think what we're talking about is...

• 1:28:19Tucker Carlson?

  That's all I'm, all I'm saying.

• 1:28:21Speaker 04

  And there was a designation to the family of nations of the world, that there would be a Jewish homeland. Let's, let's get to that point, because I think you've taken us on several trails here, and I'm not sure we can... Follow them all. But is there a reason that the Jewish people that represent, and I want to get back to this because you didn't let me finish a while ago. They represent 0.2% of the world's population. In the entirety of the world, there are about 16 million Jews total. And 8 million of them live here. The rest live mostly in New York or South Florida and a few other places.

• 1:28:57Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:28:58Speaker 04

  So this is a small population of people. They have connection to this land historically, biblically.

• 1:29:08Tucker Carlson?

  Do they?

• 1:29:09Speaker 04

  Yes, they do.

• 1:29:10Tucker Carlson?

  If Bibi's family, we know they lived in Eastern Europe. There's no evidence they ever lived here. He's not religious.

• 1:29:17Speaker 04

  But ancestrally.

• 1:29:18Tucker Carlson?

  How do we know that? Do you have his family tree? No, we don't.

• 1:29:21Speaker 04

  Do you?

• 1:29:22Tucker Carlson?

  He doesn't. So no one does. That's the point. So how do we know that he has any connection to this land at all?

• 1:29:27Speaker 04

  And if there has been a practice of Judaism and a connection to the language, the Bible, the land.

• 1:29:32Tucker Carlson?

  His ancestors didn't. He doesn't practice Judaism in any rigorous way. His ancestors didn't live here. They didn't speak the language and there's no evidence they ever lived here. So on what basis does he have a right to be here?

• 1:29:43Speaker 04

  He very much speaks the language. He has fought for the land. His family has fought for the land.

• 1:29:48Tucker Carlson?

  I feel like you're dodging a very obvious question, which is where does this right come from? And the reason it's meaningful is because there are a lot of people in the territory that Israel controls today, particularly in the West Bank, who through genetic testing we can know their families have been here for thousands of years. We don't know whether they practiced Judaism, whether they were Samaritans, pre-Islam. We don't know that. A lot of them we know have been Christians for 2,000 years. They have less of a right to the land than someone whose ancestors, the only thing we know about them is they lived in Latvia or Poland. They're Eastern European. How does that work?

• 1:30:30Speaker 04

  They're Jewish.

• 1:30:31Tucker Carlson?

  By what definition?

• 1:30:33Speaker 04

  They're Jewish by their ethnicity.

• 1:30:35Tucker Carlson?

  But how do we know they have any connection to the use of the Bible?

• 1:30:37Speaker 04

  They're Jewish by their faith. They're Jewish by the connection to the language. Jewish by the connection to the Torah?

• 1:30:42Tucker Carlson?

  But how do we know that Bibi, specifically Bibi's ancestors, ever lived here? How do we know that?

• 1:30:50Speaker 04

  I'm not sure if I understand your question.

• 1:30:53Tucker Carlson?

  How do we know if the Prime Minister of Israel's ancestors ever lived?

• 1:30:58Speaker 04

  Maybe I could ask you, how do we know they didn't?

• 1:31:01Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's on the basis of the claim that they did that all kinds of things happen. People are displaced, there's a money flow. I mean, it's a big question. A lot hangs on this. It's not some theoretical thing like, "Oh, you know, do my grandparents do this or do that?" It's like, "No, no, we have a right to be here because my ancestors were here." Okay, how do we know they were here?

• 1:31:21Speaker 04

  I'm totally unable to process what you're trying to get at. It goes back, do Jewish people have any land on this planet that should be theirs?

• 1:31:35Tucker Carlson?

  I feel that way about all peoples. I feel that way about Jewish peoples. I feel that way about...

• 1:31:39Speaker 04

  Okay, then you don't mind them having this little sliver of land?

• 1:31:43Tucker Carlson?

  Let me ask you this bluntly. Is there any country that European peoples have a right to exclusively?

• 1:31:51Speaker 04

  I think they have attained their land through conquest. I mean, let's ask ourselves...

• 1:31:58Tucker Carlson?

  Have the Britons attained their land through conquest? No, they've always been there.

• 1:32:01Speaker 04

  The Romans, the Greeks, we've had all these civilizations.

• 1:32:03Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, well, you could certainly say that here. The Romans controlled this, as you know, and they expelled all the Jews from Jerusalem. Amen. I don't want them to control it. I'm anti-Roman. Okay, we're on the same page.

• 1:32:13Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:32:13Tucker Carlson?

  But my question is very simple. Is there any European peoples that possesses the same right to their land that the Jews, including people whose ancestors lived in Eastern Europe, possess here? The Britons, we know, the British people, the Scandinavian people, the Irish people, their ancestors have been there for thousands of years. That's provable through genetic testing. Do they have a right to their land exclusively?

• 1:32:40Speaker 04

  Is anyone saying they don't?

• 1:32:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, of course. Yes. No one will say they will. And I'm asking you, do they have that right?

• 1:32:48Speaker 04

  And I'm not sure what that question involves because no one is trying to force them out of their land, of their homes. But here-

• 1:32:58Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on, why won't you answer that question?

• 1:33:00Speaker 04

  Because I just did.

• 1:33:02Tucker Carlson?

  So the Irish people have the same right to their land that the Jews have-

• 1:33:07Speaker 04

  I don't know that they have a biblical connection.

• 1:33:09Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:33:09Speaker 04

  But I'm a Bible believer.

• 1:33:11Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:33:11Speaker 04

  So that is important to me.

• 1:33:12Tucker Carlson?

  But it's also a principle. And that is, and you've said it 15 times-

• 1:33:16Speaker 04

  Sometimes people have land because they were able to attain it through war. They were able to attain it when it was challenged.

• 1:33:23Tucker Carlson?

  I understand that. There's all kinds of consequences. But we can't say that about the Irish-

• 1:33:26Speaker 04

  The world's borders change all the time.

• 1:33:28Tucker Carlson?

  Actually, the borders of the island of England have not changed, nor-

• 1:33:34Speaker 04

  But the-

• 1:33:35Tucker Carlson?

  Ireland. Those are just two examples. So you've got the indigenous people there. Do they have a moral right to that as their homeland?

• 1:33:43Speaker 04

  And I think they would probably say, yes, we do because we have ancient history to it.

• 1:33:47Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think?

• 1:33:49Speaker 04

  I've never thought about whether they-

• 1:33:50Tucker Carlson?

  Now that I'm raising the question and you've spent a lot of time thinking about the right of the Jewish people to their homeland, do the Irish have the same right to a homeland?

• 1:33:58Speaker 04

  As long as they can defend it. And as long as they, you know-

• 1:34:01Tucker Carlson?

  As long as they can defend it?

• 1:34:02Speaker 04

  But Tucker, here's the point. I'm telling you-

• 1:34:04Tucker Carlson?

  Wait a second. Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. Now you just flipped category. You're the minister here.

• 1:34:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I'm telling you-

• 1:34:08Tucker Carlson?

  As long as they can defend it. And if they can't defend it, they lose the right.

• 1:34:11Speaker 04

  And you're not allowing me to tell you that I think that what is very, very special here is that there is a biblical, as well as an ethnic, and a historical. So you can take any one, but if you add them all together, biblical, historical, and ethnic, you have a very strong case that the Jewish people are living in a land that is indigenous to them, that has been their historic homeland for 3,800 years.

• 1:34:35Tucker Carlson?

  You can repeat it as much as you want.

• 1:34:36Speaker 04

  And you can also look in the archaeology. The stones cry out-

• 1:34:39Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  Have you been to the city of David?

• 1:34:40Tucker Carlson?

  I have, oh yeah.

• 1:34:41Speaker 04

  So you know then that

• 1:34:43Tucker Carlson?

  And I love it.

• 1:34:44Speaker 04

  It's amazing place. It may be the greatest archaeological discovery in all of history.

• 1:34:49Tucker Carlson?

  It's pretty great.

• 1:34:49Speaker 04

  It's stunning. And they still continue to find things that date the Jewish people to this land archaeologically for 3,800 years.

• 1:34:59Tucker Carlson?

  We can date the Britain, the British people to their land much longer. Much thousands of years longer. Stonehenge is 3,000 years older than any building built by the descendants of Abram in this country. And so I just, it's fine.

• 1:35:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:14Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's right. I'm just wanting you to affirm that right, but it makes you uncomfortable and you won't. And I don't know why.

• 1:35:21Speaker 04

  Because I've never honestly sat down and asked myself, are the lines around the

• 1:35:27Tucker Carlson?

  It's an island, so we know what the lines are.

• 1:35:29Speaker 04

  I'm saying, but are those lines, are those rooted in something other than the historical connection? Well, great, then they should have it.

• 1:35:39Tucker Carlson?

  And they have a right to have it. But then you said if they can defend it, and if they can't defend it, they lose the right.

• 1:35:44Speaker 04

  But I didn't say it was exclusive one or the other. I think you're really going off the trail.

• 1:35:48Tucker Carlson?

  I just want to know if these principles apply universally or if they only apply to the people of Israel. And my answer appears to be just the people of Israel. They're the only ones with these rights. And I just reject that as a Christian.

• 1:35:57Speaker 04

  I didn't say that. But I'm saying, we are talking about Israel. We're in Israel. We're talking about Christian Zionism because you've made some disparaging statements about Christian Zionists. You've apologized for them, for which I appreciate. And now we're trying to define Christian and Zionist. And it seems like we've gone way, way off of that.

• 1:36:17Tucker Carlson?

  I'm trying to get, as you suggested, as a former debater at the outset, I'm trying to get to terms and a common understanding of what the words mean.

• 1:36:23Speaker 04

  And the term Christian.

• 1:36:24Tucker Carlson?

  And I'm no closer to that than I was when I began.

• 1:36:27Speaker 04

  You're not closer to the term of Christian, what that means?

• 1:36:29Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's someone who follows Jesus. And that's my next question. There are a lot of Christians in the West Bank. And, um...

• 1:36:39Tucker Carlson?

  There were a fair amount of Christians in Gaza. And some of them had been killed.

• 1:36:44Speaker 04

  There were 5,000 in Gaza?

• 1:36:45Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Tucker Carlson?

  And church, two different churches were hit by the IDF. Christian Hospital was hit seven times by the IDF. And I don't understand.

• 1:36:56Speaker 04

  They were not hit seven times. They were, there were different. I know. And one of the times, it was a rocket that was shot by Hamas. And all the news agencies reported that the IDF shot the rocket.

• 1:37:09Tucker Carlson?

  Did the IDF ever hit the hospital or the churches?

• 1:37:12Speaker 04

  They did.

• 1:37:13Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:37:13Speaker 04

  Accidentally. And they apologized for it. And it was very unfortunate. But I also, you've got to remember, there were times Hamas often hid caches of arms under hospitals.

• 1:37:26Tucker Carlson?

  Were you bothered by the fact that the IDF hit Christians?

• 1:37:31Speaker 04

  I'm bothered that anyone got killed in Gaza, but you know why I'm bothered?

• 1:37:34Tucker Carlson?

  You're a Christian minister and you can't say that the Christians are Islamic extremists.

• 1:37:39Speaker 04

  No, but I can say that the reason that the-

• 1:37:40Tucker Carlson?

  I would expect you to side with the Christians over the secular government of Israel.

• 1:37:43Speaker 04

  But I would look at it even more broadly. I would ask you this. Why was there so much suffering and continues to be suffering in Gaza? It's because Hamas, which could have built a Singapore, built a Haiti. They had a landmass the size of Las Vegas. They built tunnels underneath that are larger than the London Underground, over 500 miles of tunnels. They didn't build it to move people from one hospital to the other, one marketplace to the other, but to hide terrorists, to hide weaponry. And on October the 7th, they went over there and they massacred 1,200 civilians. Massacred, mutilated, humiliated them.

• 1:38:22Tucker Carlson?

  You're never going to get me to defend Hamas. Sorry.

• 1:38:24Speaker 04

  Please don't.

• 1:38:25Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not going to.

• 1:38:26Speaker 04

  But I'm telling you.

• 1:38:27Tucker Carlson?

  I'm appalled by it. How many civilians have been killed by the IDF in Gaza?

• 1:38:30Speaker 04

  We don't know. You know why we don't know?

• 1:38:33Tucker Carlson?

  What's your guess?

• 1:38:33Speaker 04

  Well, the only numbers we have come from this dubious entity called the Gaza Health Ministry. You know who that is?

• 1:38:39Tucker Carlson?

  Well, why doesn't Israel have a, have a, some kind of count on it?

• 1:38:43Speaker 04

  We also know that a lot of the people who were killed were, in fact, warriors. Sadly-

• 1:38:48Tucker Carlson?

  How many kids were killed?

• 1:38:49Speaker 04

  We don't know.

• 1:38:50Tucker Carlson?

  What's your guess?

• 1:38:52Speaker 04

  I don't know. I'm sure it was thousands. And it's thousands too many.

• 1:38:57Tucker Carlson?

  Thousands of kids were killed?

• 1:38:57Speaker 04

  Some of the kids who were killed had been recruited to be in the military. Kids as young as 14 years old.

• 1:39:07Tucker Carlson?

  Do you hear yourself? I wonder?

• 1:39:09Speaker 04

  I just said that there were kids as young as 14 that were recruited to be Hamas soldiers who were given arms.

• 1:39:15Tucker Carlson?

  How do you feel about the kids being killed?

• 1:39:17Speaker 04

  I think it's horrible. You know what I also think is horrible? I think it's horrible that 1,200 people were slaughtered by people across the border and 252 people were taken hostage. Forty-eight of the 1,200 were Americans.

• 1:39:30Tucker Carlson?

  Couldn't agree more.

• 1:39:30Speaker 04

  And then when Hamas...

• 1:39:31Tucker Carlson?

  Are all lives equal?

• 1:39:32Speaker 04

  When Hamas could have ended this on October the 8th and given all the hostages up, they didn't, leaving no choice.

• 1:39:40Tucker Carlson?

  You're never gonna get me to defend Hamas.

• 1:39:42Speaker 04

  I hope not.

• 1:39:42Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not pro Hamas.

• 1:39:43Speaker 04

  I hope not.

• 1:39:44Tucker Carlson?

  I'm totally opposed to slaughtering innocents, whether Hamas does it or whether the government of Israel does it in much larger numbers. And the reason I'm opposed to it is because I'm a Christian and I believe that all souls are created by God.

• 1:39:57Speaker 04

  I do not disagree with that wholeheartedly.

• 1:40:00Tucker Carlson?

  But I said, how many children have been killed?

• 1:40:02Speaker 04

  War is a horrible thing, period. And we don't know. We know that a lot of the numbers were reported by Hamas.

• 1:40:08Tucker Carlson?

  But you said you think thousands of children have been killed.

• 1:40:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, and a lot of times, you know why they got killed? Because Hamas would gather up the children and put them in the targets. Do you know what Israel does? They send page messages and they send texts to every cellphone in Gaza and they say, "We're gonna hit this particular target." They drop leaflets and they announce where they're gonna hit. Nobody does that. The US doesn't do that. Israel does that in order to prevent...

• 1:40:37Tucker Carlson?

  Are you saying that?

• 1:40:38Speaker 04

  Let me finish this. They do this in order to prevent civilian casualties. What Hamas does, they say, "Oh, this is the target." And by gunpoint, they push people into those various places. And then when people get killed, they say, "Look, Israel just slaughtered these people." Even though it was Hamas who moved them into harm's way, knowing that it was going to put them in a place of danger and death and destruction. And they do that because they don't care. You say you care about life, I care about life.

• 1:41:10Tucker Carlson?

  It's interesting that...

• 1:41:11Speaker 04

  Tucker, they don't care about life.

• 1:41:12Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not saying that Hamas does. You're never gonna get me to defend Hamas.

• 1:41:15Speaker 04

  Good.

• 1:41:16Tucker Carlson?

  I'm anti Hamas.

• 1:41:17Speaker 04

  You've said that three times and I believe it.

• 1:41:18Tucker Carlson?

  Your dig at the United States is very revealing.

• 1:41:21Speaker 04

  Why is it revealing?

• 1:41:23Tucker Carlson?

  Because your priorities are very clear.

• 1:41:25Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:41:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, they are.

• 1:41:26Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 1:41:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, they are. And as an American, permit me a moment of outrage. Because I said... Many civilians have been killed.

• 1:41:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:41:35Tucker Carlson?

  And you said, right in the middle of your elaborate defense of the IDF's killing of civilians, including children, you said, "They do a better job than the United States does." That's my country and my government.

• 1:41:46Speaker 04

  It's my country. What flag am I wearing here?

• 1:41:49Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I'm asking, why is it so...

• 1:41:51Speaker 04

  What flag am I wearing?

• 1:41:52Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's, of course, my flag as well.

• 1:41:54Speaker 04

  And it's my flag. It's who I serve.

• 1:41:56Tucker Carlson?

  So why the dig at the United States?

• 1:41:57Speaker 04

  It's not a dig at them.

• 1:41:58Tucker Carlson?

  It was.

• 1:41:59Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no. You've totally misrepresented that.

• 1:42:01Tucker Carlson?

  What did you mean by that?

• 1:42:02Speaker 04

  I did not take a dig at the US. What I'm saying is...

• 1:42:05Tucker Carlson?

  You said the IDF is more humane than the US.

• 1:42:07Speaker 04

  I'm saying...

• 1:42:08Tucker Carlson?

  Military. Do you believe that?

• 1:42:09Speaker 04

  No, I'm just saying that Israel takes steps that we don't take and no other country that I'm aware of takes to try to prevent, because no matter what Israel does, they're going to get accused of genocide.

• 1:42:20Tucker Carlson?

  That may be right, and I'm...

• 1:42:21Speaker 04

  I'm just telling you that they...

• 1:42:22Tucker Carlson?

  But then let me ask you on that question.

• 1:42:24Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:42:25Tucker Carlson?

  You know, that's such a politically loaded...

• 1:42:26Speaker 04

  But I resent the idea that you think that I'm not loyal to the US.

• 1:42:29Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you just said... Look, I'm not... Say you're not loyal. I'm merely noting what you just said, which was that the IDF takes greater pains than the US, our military does, to spare civilian lives. And I guess my question is, when was the last time the US military killed this many civilians? Do you know?

• 1:42:50Speaker 04

  Well, it could have been Nagasaki, Hiroshima. Could have been Iraq, Afghanistan. We don't know the full numbers.

• 1:42:57Tucker Carlson?

  And I think most Christians would say all of those things were atrocities, because innocents were killed in large numbers, and we don't believe in that. And so that's not really a defense, is it?

• 1:43:08Speaker 04

  War is a horrible thing, Tucker, and there are people who end up, unfortunately, being killed that shouldn't have been. I would tell you that I wish that none of those people in Gaza had been killed after October 8th. Well, I say not none of them. I'm glad Mohammed Sinwar was killed. I'm glad that some of those warriors, the people who masterminded and carried out the atrocities on October 7th...

• 1:43:29Tucker Carlson?

  The 14-year-old Hamas operatives? How do you feel about their deaths?

• 1:43:32Speaker 04

  If they participated in that, then...

• 1:43:36Speaker 04

  God help them. I'm telling you Tucker.

• 1:43:38Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean, God help them?

• 1:43:38Speaker 04

  I don't know that they were 14 years. No, but I'm telling you that when someone commits the acts of atrocity, and then they hold hostages. If these were your children being held hostage in Gaza, what would you do to get them out?

• 1:43:51Tucker Carlson?

  I wouldn't want to kill 14-year-olds, I'll tell you that.

• 1:43:53Speaker 04

  Let me ask you something. Would you do whatever it took to get your kids back if they were being tortured, raped, starved?

• 1:43:58Tucker Carlson?

  I would not kill children, period.

• 1:44:00Speaker 04

  Well, I'm just telling you.

• 1:44:01Tucker Carlson?

  And I would never make excuses for killing children either.

• 1:44:04Speaker 04

  And I'm not talking about targeting children, I'm talking about...

• 1:44:07Tucker Carlson?

  You told me that 14-year-olds deserve to die because they're working for Hamas.

• 1:44:10Speaker 04

  I'm telling you...

• 1:44:10Tucker Carlson?

  And my question is, can you hear yourself?

• 1:44:12Speaker 04

  I do hear myself.

• 1:44:13Tucker Carlson?

  So do you think a 14-year-old child has agency? Do you think that he deserves to die because he's being used by adults? Isn't his death a crushing tragedy?

• 1:44:21Speaker 04

  If he's holding a gun, and he's pointing it at someone who's trying to save a hostage, and the only way to save that hostage... I'm telling you, war is a horrible thing. It's a horrible thing, and a lot of innocent people die.

• 1:44:34Tucker Carlson?

  I'm the one who thinks war is a horrible thing.

• 1:44:36Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no. I think what you don't understand...

• 1:44:37Tucker Carlson?

  I'm trying to explain how horrible it is, and you're saying that the 14-year-old deserved to die. We don't execute 14-year-olds in our country.

• 1:44:43Speaker 04

  You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't...

• 1:44:44Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know what you're saying, you said.

• 1:44:45Speaker 04

  I never said "deserve to die."

• 1:44:47Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:44:47Speaker 04

  I say there are people who die that is unfortunate.

• 1:44:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:44:51Speaker 04

  But I'm saying that you are not giving Israel credit for having done everything they possibly could to a level that, quite frankly, in urban warfare, there has never been a war that has been documented.

• 1:45:02Tucker Carlson?

  I don't mean to criticize Israel, but it's a foreign country, and I would much rather criticize a foreign country than my own.

• 1:45:06Speaker 04

  Feel free to do that, they can handle it.

• 1:45:08Tucker Carlson?

  But you pivoted against our country by saying Israel's done a better job than our military has.

• 1:45:13Speaker 04

  No, I simply gave you the illustration, and I helped you understand that Israel goes to lengths that no other country, including ours, goes to in the middle of an urban war, and yet, Israel ended up with fewer civilian deaths in an urban war than any urban war of record.

• 1:45:33Tucker Carlson?

  You said you didn't know how many civilian deaths there were, so how can you say that?

• 1:45:36Speaker 04

  If you took Gaza's numbers, Hamas's numbers, it would still be...

• 1:45:40Tucker Carlson?

  You said you didn't know what the numbers are.

• 1:45:41Speaker 04

  We don't.

• 1:45:41Tucker Carlson?

  You just told me that, then how can you say it's a lower number?

• 1:45:43Speaker 04

  But if you took the numbers that they report... Which is like 50,000, 24,000, 25,000 of those were actual warriors. How many civilians? If you, if you took all of their numbers.

• 1:45:53Tucker Carlson?

  I think the numbers range from 120 to 78. Those are the ones I just read. I don't know if that's real. I don't know either. I'm asking you.

• 1:46:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I'm telling you, those numbers I've not heard, have not read. The numbers that I think are more reportable are somewhere in the 60,000 range.

• 1:46:08Tucker Carlson?

  Where do those come from?

• 1:46:10Speaker 04

  From the Gaza Health Ministry.

• 1:46:11Tucker Carlson?

  But you said those were valid numbers.

• 1:46:13Speaker 04

  I think they are. I don't think that they're accurate, but I'm saying, let's just assume.

• 1:46:17Tucker Carlson?

  You're saying they're inaccurate, but they prove that Israel's doing a great job?

• 1:46:20Speaker 04

  No, I'm saying, let's assume that the most widespread numbers, the largest numbers that have been reported out of Gaza by Hamas.

• 1:46:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:46:28Speaker 04

  Let's assume they're true. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying they are true, but assume they're true. Let's just take them at their word. Then you still have a lower number of civilians killed than in any urban warfare environment in modern history. Fact.

• 1:46:46Tucker Carlson?

  Is that a fact?

• 1:46:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:46:47Tucker Carlson?

  What are you comparing it to?

• 1:46:49Speaker 04

  To any urban warfare.

• 1:46:51Tucker Carlson?

  Name one.

• 1:46:52Speaker 04

  Iraq?

• 1:46:53Tucker Carlson?

  Where in Iraq?

• 1:46:54Speaker 04

  Afghanistan?

• 1:46:54Tucker Carlson?

  Where in Iraq? Where in Afghanistan? There aren't many urban areas in Afghanistan. I don't think there was any fighting in urban areas in Afghanistan.

• 1:46:59Speaker 04

  Kabul?

• 1:47:01Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. Was there, was there, were there pitched battles in Kabul over long periods of time? I, I don't.

• 1:47:04Speaker 04

  20 years.

• 1:47:06Tucker Carlson?

  In Kabul? I don't think.

• 1:47:07Speaker 04

  Throughout all of Afghanistan.

• 1:47:08Tucker Carlson?

  But what, so what were those rates?

• 1:47:11Speaker 04

  You're talking about what are the rates there?

• 1:47:13Tucker Carlson?

  You just.

• 1:47:14Speaker 04

  The number of people who were killed.

• 1:47:16Tucker Carlson?

  Uh huh.

• 1:47:16Speaker 04

  Into the tens of thousands. I'm, I'm asking you to.

• 1:47:21Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know the answer. I'd have never heard of any of this. You brought it up. You said, "The IDF has killed a lower proportion of civilians in urban warfare than in any urban conflict in modern history." I'd never heard that before. I don't know what your, what are the controls for that? And you said, "Well, America, the US military killed more civilians."

• 1:47:40Speaker 04

  Would you agree that the real tragedy was that Hamas continued to force this war?

• 1:47:45Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on. You just once again said that the IDF is more humane than the United States military. You just said that. You said, "In Iraq and Afghanistan, the US military killed more civilians than the IDF did in Gaza." You just told me that. I'd never heard that before. And my question is, how do you know that? What are those numbers?

• 1:48:02Speaker 04

  And I'm trying to explain to you that there were. Extraordinary efforts to keep the number.

• 1:48:08Tucker Carlson?

  You don't know the numbers, do you?

• 1:48:10Speaker 04

  I think there were tens of thousands. I'll get them for you.

• 1:48:12Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you brought it up. That's the only reason I'm pushing you.

• 1:48:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, but you... I'm wearing a flag. I work for a country. And you pretended or alleged that somehow I'm not loyal to this and I'm criticizing my own country.

• 1:48:23Tucker Carlson?

  You just said they did a better job than the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I said, "What are the numbers?" And you said, "I don't know." So on what basis are you making the claim that the IDF Gaza spared more civilians than the US Army and Marine Corps did in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why are you saying that? Like, on what basis are you saying that?

• 1:48:45Speaker 04

  From the conversations that I've had with the people who fought there. And I don't have the exact numbers for you. But what I'm trying to help you to understand, and I don't think you're willing to go there, is that there was no desire to kill people indiscriminately in Gaza. I don't think there was any desire to kill people indiscriminately in Iraq, Afghanistan.

• 1:49:05Tucker Carlson?

  So here's my question. Let me just say, I think, and I know a bunch of people who serve in the IDF, and I don't believe your average IDF soldier wants to kill innocents. I just want to be really clear about that.

• 1:49:14Speaker 04

  Good.

• 1:49:14Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think most soldiers want to do that.

• 1:49:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:49:16Tucker Carlson?

  I think a lot of them in our country, in Israel, wind up doing that because that's what war is about, and it really hurts them. And I know people who've done it personally, know them really well, and it wrecks their lives. But I don't think your average soldier wants that, in this country or any other. Leadership is a different question, and I want to refer you very specifically to a number of speeches the Prime Minister, your friend Benjamin Netanyahu, gave in the aftermath of October 7th, including one in November of that year, when he referred to Amalek. Now, Amalek is a reference, a biblical reference, so of course you'll be very familiar with that. The Amalekites were a tribe described throughout the Bible, particularly in 1 Samuel, that obstructed the Jews as they fled Egypt.

• 1:49:59Tucker Carlson?

  And God tells Samuel to give the instructions to Saul to kill the Amalekites.

• 1:50:09Tucker Carlson?

  And he says, and I'm sure you remember this, this is in 1 Samuel 15, of course, I'm sure, I know you know it. He says, "Kill the men, kill the women, kill the children, kill the infants, kill the donkeys, kill the camels, kill everything." And Saul spares the king, and he spares the animals. And for that, he is punished by God. That is genocide. God is calling for genocide of the Amalekites, of Amalek. And the prime minister of Israel, at least once, I believe on other occasions, described the Palestinians in Gaza as Amalek. That's calling for genocide. And you know that.

• 1:50:51Speaker 04

  I totally disagree.

• 1:50:54Tucker Carlson?

  Tell me then, what it means.

• 1:50:55Speaker 04

  Because to say that Israel was attempting to commit genocide, first of all, that's simply not true.

• 1:51:02Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not saying, I'm saying, what is the prime minister talking about? Why would he refer to the Palestinians as Amalek? What is Amalek?

• 1:51:07Speaker 04

  You would have to ask him. I don't know. I know what Amalek is. I do understand 1 Samuel 16, I get all that.

• 1:51:14Tucker Carlson?

  1 Samuel 15.

• 1:51:15Speaker 04

  15. But I do understand.

• 1:51:17Tucker Carlson?

  And it's widely known. So if you say, "Our enemy is Amalek, and we are proceeding on the basis of God's commands to us," you are calling for genocide. Tell me how I'm missing something.

• 1:51:28Speaker 04

  Because if Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could have done it in two and a half hours.

• 1:51:32Tucker Carlson?

  We can debate what's happened in Gaza. I'm asking you why the leader of this country...

• 1:51:37Speaker 04

  Ask him.

• 1:51:38Tucker Carlson?

  Well, what do you think?

• 1:51:39Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 1:51:40Tucker Carlson?

  Does that bother you at all?

• 1:51:42Speaker 04

  People, I don't know what he meant. I don't know if it was an illustrative metaphor. I think what he was saying was that we're not going to let anything keep us from getting our hostages back, their sons and their daughters, who are being brutalized, raped, tortured, starved, beaten.

• 1:51:59Tucker Carlson?

  Come on, Mr. Mess.

• 1:52:00Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:52:01Tucker Carlson?

  There are many examples of justice in the Bible.

• 1:52:04Speaker 04

  Israel gets accused of genocide regularly.

• 1:52:07Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not accusing Israel of anything. I'm saying that the prime minister of Israel described the Palestinians as Amalek.

• 1:52:14Speaker 04

  Do you think he attempted to do genocide?

• 1:52:16Tucker Carlson?

  I'm asking why, of all the references in the Bible, and there are many to justice, and there are many to reconciliation, that is a reference to genocide, as you know, killing every man, woman, child, and infant, I'm quoting, and their animals, wiping them from the earth. And when they don't do that, they're punished.

• 1:52:38Tucker Carlson?

  When you say that at the outset of a war, and then you wind up with massive civilian casualties, maybe not as big as they were in Iraq, then I have to ask you, what is that? And is that kind of thinking consistent with Western values and with Christianity? Do we as Christians believe it's okay to kill people's children?

• 1:52:58Speaker 04

  No, we don't. And neither do the Israelis, because they didn't go after their children. If they'd have wanted to kill all their children, Tucker, they've got the military capacity. They could have done it in less than a day.

• 1:53:09Tucker Carlson?

  I've heard you say that.

• 1:53:10Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:53:10Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, I guess they could have done it.

• 1:53:11Speaker 04

  Okay, but why didn't they? Why didn't they?

• 1:53:13Tucker Carlson?

  I think there are a lot of decent people in Israel who don't want that, but I'm talking...

• 1:53:16Speaker 04

  Do you think that the Prime Minister wanted to wipe out every single person in Gaza? Do you really think that?

• 1:53:21Tucker Carlson?

  I'm asking you what you think is the US representative of our government.

• 1:53:25Speaker 04

  I don't think that that's what he wanted to do.

• 1:53:27Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ask him? Why are you referring...

• 1:53:29Speaker 04

  I never had to ask him that.

• 1:53:31Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:53:31Speaker 04

  Because I never saw any evidence, any evidence, that Israel tried to wipe out every single person. I just gave you examples that they tried to save civilian lives.

• 1:53:42Tucker Carlson?

  But I'm not... By the way, I'm not... As I've said, and I mean this, I think most soldiers in most armies, including the Israel Defense Force, don't want to kill civilians. I just don't believe that. I think there are some lunatics who do.

• 1:53:55Speaker 04

  Can I ask you something?

• 1:53:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:53:56Speaker 04

  You platformed a guy. You had him on your show, Tony Aguilar.

• 1:53:59Tucker Carlson?

  Don't platform anyone.

• 1:54:01Speaker 04

  Well, you interviewed...

• 1:54:02Tucker Carlson?

  Not a liberal, so I don't platform people.

• 1:54:03Speaker 04

  Okay, you interviewed Tony Aguilar, who claimed that IDF soldiers killed a little boy in his presence.

• 1:54:14Tucker Carlson?

  Uh huh.

• 1:54:15Speaker 04

  That didn't happen.

• 1:54:16Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:54:16Speaker 04

  It did not happen.

• 1:54:17Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know if you know whether it happened or not.

• 1:54:21Speaker 04

  Well, I can tell you why I know it didn't happen. Because we found that little boy less than a week later.

• 1:54:26Tucker Carlson?

  All right.

• 1:54:27Speaker 04

  I was involved, heavily involved, in helping to extricate him from Gaza. Four different countries were involved in getting he and his mother to safety, get them out of there. Tony Aguilar is a liar.

• 1:54:40Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:54:40Speaker 04

  Tony Aguilar claimed that he saw an IDF soldier shoot the little boy. He was fired from the GHF for cause, and he begged for his job back. And they wouldn't give it back, because they didn't want him. And he told them that if they didn't give his job back, that he would burn them down.

• 1:55:00Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:55:00Speaker 04

  So he goes out... No, let me finish this, because it's important for you to understand.

• 1:55:04Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:55:05Speaker 04

  So this guy then goes out and makes up this story that he witnessed IDF soldiers shooting a little boy.

• 1:55:12Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know that he made it up. He seemed to believe it to me. It's possible he's wrong. I've been wrong many times.

• 1:55:17Speaker 04

  Well, this is a little bit more than just missing a fact. He claimed to be an eyewitness to the murder of a little boy. A little boy that a week later, we found.

• 1:55:26Tucker Carlson?

  And you're sure it's the same little boy?

• 1:55:27Speaker 04

  We're absolutely certain.

• 1:55:28Tucker Carlson?

  How do you know that?

• 1:55:29Speaker 04

  Because we have pictures of him. We had descriptions of him. We know his name. We know his mother.

• 1:55:37Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:55:38Speaker 04

  He was extricated out of Gaza. It was a very delicate situation to get him out because if Hamas had found out that he was still alive, they would have killed him in order to validate Aguilar's story.

• 1:55:47Tucker Carlson?

  How do you know that?

• 1:55:48Speaker 04

  So he gets out.

• 1:55:49Tucker Carlson?

  How do you know Hamas would have killed him?

• 1:55:51Speaker 04

  Why wouldn't they? Wouldn't they have wanted to kill him? Because that way, they could have said that this story was true.

• 1:55:56Tucker Carlson?

  Look, I'm just telling you that this kid is alive today. If what you're saying is true and I have no basis of knowing, I'm really glad. Because I don't want little kids to get killed, even 14-year-olds, okay?

• 1:56:04Speaker 04

  You shouldn't want anyone to get killed.

• 1:56:05Tucker Carlson?

  But let me ask you, is it true? He also made the claim, and he had audio of it, and video too, that US contractors were using live ammunition to disperse crowds. And he had video of that. Do you know if, did he make up that video?

• 1:56:23Speaker 04

  There were times, here's what happened. Crowds would come toward the sites. They were given verbal warnings, and then they were given additional verbal warnings, and they were, shots were fired, either in the air, sometimes in the ground. And if they continued to come and threaten, there were times when there were people who were engaged in firefight. That happened.

• 1:56:47Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, they were armed?

• 1:56:48Speaker 04

  Sometimes they were.

• 1:56:49Tucker Carlson?

  They were. Do you know of specific instances where they were armed?

• 1:56:53Speaker 04

  I can probably get you some specific information about that.

• 1:56:56Tucker Carlson?

  I think I know the answer to that. I don't think there's any evidence at all that they were armed.

• 1:56:59Speaker 04

  But I also know that the new...

• 1:57:00Tucker Carlson?

  Are you okay with using live ammunition at aid distribution sites for families, women, and children?

• 1:57:07Speaker 04

  Very rarely did this happen near aid distribution.

• 1:57:09Tucker Carlson?

  How about at all? Are you okay with that?

• 1:57:11Speaker 04

  No. I'll tell you what, I'm not okay with it.

• 1:57:13Tucker Carlson?

  You seem like you're okay with it.

• 1:57:14Speaker 04

  No, no, no. I think you are so trying to put words in my mouth.

• 1:57:16Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not. You said that they were firing back, but then there's no evidence that they were.

• 1:57:19Speaker 04

  On a Sunday afternoon, I can remember when there was widespread reports on BBC, CNN, and the New York Times, and they said that 27 people were killed at a feeding site. We had video extensively over that site. Not one single person, not only were they not shot, nobody was shot at. There was not one bit of violence that happened at that feeding site.

• 1:57:39Tucker Carlson?

  Trying to get me to defend BBC? Not gonna do that. It's like defending Hamas. I agree with you. I don't believe anything I see in the media. It's just that, it's really simple. If people are using, and these were American contractors, by the way, these are not Israelis that I'm aware of. American contractors run by some crypto minister or something was running the group. If they're using live ammunition at an aid distribution site, that strikes me as totally unacceptable.

• 1:58:06Speaker 04

  They were not firing at crowds.

• 1:58:08Tucker Carlson?

  Does it seem acceptable to you?

• 1:58:09Speaker 04

  They were not firing at crowds.

• 1:58:10Tucker Carlson?

  If people got killed, there's way to...

• 1:58:13Speaker 04

  And some of those people got killed because Hamas were trying to keep them from getting to the aid distribution sites because Hamas was controlling the food. Hamas made $500 million selling the food that was supposed to be given away for free.

• 1:58:25Tucker Carlson?

  Not gonna defend Hamas.

• 1:58:26Speaker 04

  And what they were trying to do is to keep people from going to the sites where they were getting food for free. When we said GHF up, the first thing that happened... I know, but I'm telling you, the first thing that people said was, wow, this is the first time we've had food that we got for free.

• 1:58:40Tucker Carlson?

  Is it okay to shoot unarmed people?

• 1:58:42Speaker 04

  I just told you it wasn't.

• 1:58:43Tucker Carlson?

  That's awful.

• 1:58:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:58:45Tucker Carlson?

  That's awful.

• 1:58:45Speaker 04

  Of course it's awful.

• 1:58:46Tucker Carlson?

  Are all lives equal, do you think?

• 1:58:49Speaker 04

  Of course they are.

• 1:58:50Tucker Carlson?

  So the death of a Palestinian is every bit as important, significant as the death of Israel?

• 1:58:55Speaker 04

  Why wouldn't it be? Of course it is.

• 1:58:56Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know.

• 1:58:57Speaker 04

  Of course it is. There's no such thing as a human soul that God made that is less valuable than another. I'm pro-life.

• 1:59:04Tucker Carlson?

  Me too.

• 1:59:05Speaker 04

  So I believe that every life has intrinsic worth and value. There's no such thing as a worthless or a completely disposable life. That's what makes me pro-life, Tucker.

• 1:59:13Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree.

• 1:59:14Speaker 04

  And I believe that from the conception until the end of natural life.

• 1:59:19Tucker Carlson?

  Why, I would never say, when confronted with the death of children, war is terrible because it minimizes the deaths of those children. It's awful.

• 1:59:26Speaker 04

  I don't think it minimizes. I think it is outrageous. It's a terrible thing. I wish we never had war. Why do we have war?

• 1:59:34Tucker Carlson?

  We're about to have one with Iran, it looks like. How many Americans do you think will die in that war?

• 1:59:40Speaker 04

  I hope none. None died last year when we participated in the 12-day war. Not one. You said 20,000 would die, and they didn't.

• 1:59:47Tucker Carlson?

  I said could, and they could have. And they could die now, and that's a real risk.

• 1:59:51Speaker 04

  How many boots on the ground do you think the US has supplied for Israel over the course of its life?

• 1:59:58Speaker 04

  How many times have we put soldiers on the ground for Israel?

• 2:00:00Tucker Carlson?

  Well, we had the Iraq War, which was for Israel.

• 2:00:03Speaker 04

  No, it wasn't for Israel.

• 2:00:04Tucker Carlson?

  How was it for us?

• 2:00:06Speaker 04

  Well, because it was a retribution against 9/11. Now, was it the best idea?

• 2:00:10Tucker Carlson?

  Was Iraq involved in 9/11?

• 2:00:13Speaker 04

  Our government thought so.

• 2:00:15Tucker Carlson?

  Why are 9/11 documents still classified?

• 2:00:17Speaker 04

  I have no idea.

• 2:00:18Tucker Carlson?

  Should they be unclassified?

• 2:00:19Speaker 04

  I think so.

• 2:00:20Tucker Carlson?

  All of them, right?

• 2:00:21Speaker 04

  I have no problem with that.

• 2:00:22Tucker Carlson?

  Me too.

• 2:00:23Speaker 04

  I like transparency. I like sunlight. I do.

• 2:00:25Tucker Carlson?

  I hope you'll call for that.

• 2:00:26Speaker 04

  I like free press. I like free speech.

• 2:00:28Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree.

• 2:00:28Speaker 04

  I really, I like all of that.

• 2:00:30Tucker Carlson?

  But if no, if there was no connect, I've never seen, I'm open to anything, but I've never seen any connection between the government of Saddam Hussein, the secular Ba'athist government of Saddam Hussein, and the terror attacks of 9/11.

• 2:00:42Speaker 04

  I don't know that there were. I don't know. So I'm not sure, but I don't know how that, why was that Israel's fault?

• 2:00:48Tucker Carlson?

  Well, Benjamin Netanyahu, now Prime Minister, of course, exerted lots of pressure openly on the US government to take out, to regime change the Saddam government. I was there. It was in Washington. And, and they complied. I don't think there's any way to read it.

• 2:01:03Speaker 04

  Do you think Israel leads the US and pushes them and tells them what to do?

• 2:01:09Tucker Carlson?

  Not on everything, of course, but I think, let me be specific. I think the Israeli government strongly pushed the United States to take out Saddam Hussein. There's no question about that. I think the Israeli government right now, on Bibi Netanyahu, who's been in the White House seven times in one year, pushing for regime change in Iran. I think they're on the verge of convincing this administration to effect regime change.

• 2:01:36Speaker 04

  You think the president is weak and is being pushed?

• 2:01:39Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not saying that. I know, I know the president's being pushed. Why do you think a foreign leader was in the White House seven times in one year? Are you okay with that? That's a lot.

• 2:01:48Speaker 04

  You know, Israel is not just a friend or an ally. It is a real partner. We have an incredible relationship with Israel in intelligence and in military, in culture, in values. You know, to be shocked that the Israeli prime minister would have that many meetings, it's a lot. But I want to ask you the question: Do you think President Trump is weak enough to let Bibi Netanyahu push him into something that he doesn't want to do?

• 2:02:15Tucker Carlson?

  I don't. Look, I think, and I don't know, of course, the answer to every question, including this one, but I think that President Trump really doesn't like nuclear proliferation, and I don't think he wants Iran to have a bomb. I think he really sincerely means that.

• 2:02:29Speaker 04

  I hope you don't want them to have a bomb.

• 2:02:31Tucker Carlson?

  Want them to have a bomb? I don't want anyone to have a bomb, including Israel. I don't know why we're okay with Israel having nuclear weapons. I'm not. I'm not okay with Pakistan having them. I'm not okay with Saudi having them. Israel's nuclear weapons were created, of course, with nuclear materials stolen from the United States, from a nuclear plant in Pennsylvania, as I know you know. I'm opposed to all of it. I don't like nuclear weapons. It's mass murder, as far as I'm concerned. So, no, I don't want Iran to have a bomb, obviously. The question is, what are the potential costs? And you have to factor that into any decision.

• 2:03:05Speaker 04

  And what are the costs if they were to get a nuclear bomb? They've said for 47 years, "Death to America."

• 2:03:11Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't think that...

• 2:03:12Speaker 04

  They'd target us.

• 2:03:13Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think Israel's...

• 2:03:14Speaker 04

  They've targeted President Trump specifically.

• 2:03:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm...

• 2:03:17Speaker 04

  They'd hired a person to assassinate...

• 2:03:18Tucker Carlson?

  Not for Iran. Iran, BBC, and Hamas, not defending him.

• 2:03:21Speaker 04

  Good.

• 2:03:22Tucker Carlson?

  All I'm saying is...

• 2:03:23Speaker 04

  We're in agreement on that.

• 2:03:24Tucker Carlson?

  I want, our country is not thriving, and we're spending, you know, tens and tens and tens of billions of dollars over time defending Israel and helping it prosecute all these...

• 2:03:35Speaker 04

  Do you know where that money goes?

• 2:03:36Tucker Carlson?

  Goes to a lot of places.

• 2:03:37Speaker 04

  But let's talk about that a minute. $3.8 billion a year. That money goes right back to the US to purchase weapon systems. For example, every round of ammo that the IDF shoots is manufactured just outside where I live, in Little Rock, Arkansas. The components, a lot of them for the Iron Dome and the Arrow III missile defense systems are manufactured near Camden, Arkansas.

• 2:04:02Tucker Carlson?

  Which needs it, by the way. Camden's economically depressed.

• 2:04:05Speaker 04

  You know the area.

• 2:04:05Tucker Carlson?

  I do.

• 2:04:06Speaker 04

  And there are thousands and thousands of American jobs, and there are billions and billions of dollars of expenditures that Israel makes in the US and buys the things that we try to sell them.

• 2:04:21Tucker Carlson?

  I know how defense contracting works. I'm from Washington. No, I know this. I guess what I'm saying is America's not thriving at all.

• 2:04:27Speaker 04

  You think it's Israel's fault?

• 2:04:29Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think it's Israel's fault.

• 2:04:30Speaker 04

  Okay, well, good.

• 2:04:31Tucker Carlson?

  I just think that what we're doing isn't working at all, and America's not richer.

• 2:04:36Speaker 04

  I think the president is doing some amazing things to get us back on track.

• 2:04:39Tucker Carlson?

  Not attacking Trump.

• 2:04:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:04:41Tucker Carlson?

  I'm merely saying that over, say, the last 20 years, America's not gotten richer or freer at all. And I come to Israel and the infrastructure, we're flying in, and I said to my buddy, I was like, "Man, it first of all, it looks great. I love the agriculture in Israel because it's beautiful. I love green. I love plants."

• 2:04:58Speaker 04

  I remember when it didn't look like that.

• 2:04:59Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:00Speaker 04

  First time I came in 53 years ago.

• 2:05:02Tucker Carlson?

  It's great.

• 2:05:02Speaker 04

  It did not look like that.

• 2:05:03Tucker Carlson?

  Great. Looks a lot nicer than our country, and it has higher standard of living. It has nicer roads than the United States. And so it's like, okay, why are we sending all this money to a country that has a higher standard of living than ours?

• 2:05:18Speaker 04

  I don't know that they have a higher standard of living.

• 2:05:19Tucker Carlson?

  They do, actually. They have free healthcare. They also have free abortion. Are you okay with that?

• 2:05:24Speaker 04

  I personally don't like that.

• 2:05:25Tucker Carlson?

  Why would we be subsidizing? Why would we send any money?

• 2:05:27Speaker 04

  We're not.

• 2:05:28Tucker Carlson?

  Why would we send any money to a country that provides free abortion?

• 2:05:31Speaker 04

  Because the money that we send does not pay for healthcare. It does not pay for abortion. It pays for military things.

• 2:05:37Tucker Carlson?

  It's like if they don't spend it on this, they'll spend it on that.

• 2:05:39Speaker 04

  But they do spend it on that, and then we get many more times back in the return of the investment.

• 2:05:44Tucker Carlson?

  Why don't we say we're not sending you any more money as long as you have free abortion?

• 2:05:48Speaker 04

  Well, that would be a policy decision.

• 2:05:50Tucker Carlson?

  Would you be for that?

• 2:05:51Speaker 04

  I would be okay with it because I hate abortion. I think it's horrible.

• 2:05:54Tucker Carlson?

  How much do you hate it?

• 2:05:55Speaker 04

  I hate it a lot.

• 2:05:55Tucker Carlson?

  Why are we sending them money if they're paying for free abortions?

• 2:05:58Speaker 04

  Because they're not paying for abortions with the money. And because we, in turn, get billions of dollars. The return on investment is estimated somewhere between 400 and 1200 percent.

• 2:06:07Tucker Carlson?

  I've heard these numbers. I just live there and I know, and I'm, by the way, I'm for American manufacturing. The defense industry is totally corrupt in CD, as you know. However, I like to see American companies thrive. Like, it's complicated. I'm not an extremist or an absolutist on really anything other than abortion. However, net-net, as we say, our country's not really thriving. And we're also totally broke.

• 2:06:34Speaker 04

  But why is that the case? Is it because we've done a lousy job controlling our borders? A lousy job of controlling our economy?

• 2:06:40Tucker Carlson?

  It's lots of things.

• 2:06:41Speaker 04

  It's a lot of things.

• 2:06:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:42Speaker 04

  But we own that. I think President Trump is doing remarkable things to turn it around. I cannot imagine any President--

• 2:06:48Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not attacking Trump.

• 2:06:49Speaker 04

  I know, but if you're saying the country is in trouble--

• 2:06:51Tucker Carlson?

  Saying we're out of money, actually, is what I'm--

• 2:06:53Speaker 04

  Let's give credit to what the President is doing to get us out of debt because I think that what he's doing economically--

• 2:06:58Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not supporting Hamas and I'm not attacking Trump.

• 2:07:01Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:07:01Tucker Carlson?

  Just with those baseline agreements. It's also true that, like, our debt is not sustainable. And so, given that, like, what do you think it will cost? What did it cost to move all these, to move the fleet off Iran into the Persian Gulf?

• 2:07:16Speaker 04

  A lot less than it would to bury a lot of Americans if they ever got a long-range ballistic missile. A lot less.

• 2:07:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I don't--

• 2:07:23Speaker 04

  Tucker, I want you to understand that when Iran has told us for 47 years they're going to kill us, do you think they would do it if they had the capacity militarily?

• 2:07:31Tucker Carlson?

  What would happen if Iran took out any of the--

• 2:07:38Tucker Carlson?

  Energy facilities in the Gulf, took out a bunch of them. What would happen to the United States economy, do you think?

• 2:07:46Speaker 04

  Well, our economy probably would survive because we have energy independence, thanks to President Trump.

• 2:07:51Tucker Carlson?

  It would survive?

• 2:07:52Speaker 04

  Our economy is based on our own energy.

• 2:07:55Tucker Carlson?

  What would happen to markets? What do you think?

• 2:07:57Speaker 04

  It would be a terrible thing to happen globally. It's why Iran is a global threat. It's why Iran threw its proxies, Tucker. This is another thing.

• 2:08:04Tucker Carlson?

  They're not blowing up energy infrastructure right now, but if we try to regime change them, they have said that they will. I don't know if they will or not.

• 2:08:10Speaker 04

  I don't either.

• 2:08:11Tucker Carlson?

  Is that a risk that...

• 2:08:12Speaker 04

  But they have their own problems to defend. If they try to do that, and they lose their own energy capacity...

• 2:08:18Tucker Carlson?

  But are you worried about... So if they took out... And again, I don't know what's gonna happen. And I guess we're not supposed to think about worst case, because that makes us pro-Islamic or something. But I'm an American, and I don't want a depression in our country. It's too fractured and unstable right now. I don't think we want that at all.

• 2:08:33Speaker 04

  None of us want that. None of us want that.

• 2:08:36Tucker Carlson?

  Not right now, we don't. Not at all.

• 2:08:37Speaker 04

  No, I don't want it next year, next week, 10 years from now.

• 2:08:41Tucker Carlson?

  Especially now. All these states are basically in a state of insurrection against the federal government. They're not enforcing the most basic law of the land, which is immigration.

• 2:08:48Speaker 04

  And thank goodness President Trump is pushing back and he's...

• 2:08:51Tucker Carlson?

  I agree, I'm just saying...

• 2:08:52Speaker 04

  ...speaking to force that compliance.

• 2:08:55Tucker Carlson?

  If all of a sudden markets just tanked and gas crippled, or whatever, and you had, you know, like a severe recession or something worse, that's a massive cost. And I don't see anybody factoring in that possibility. Iran has said it will do it. You've said 10 times they're evil. Okay, I believe you. Then why wouldn't they take out the Qatari gas fields they share with Qatar? Or refining, petrochemicals, extraction, in any of the Gulf countries? That would cripple us!

• 2:09:23Speaker 04

  Well, energy-wise, again, we have independence because President Trump put measures in place that gave us the capacity...

• 2:09:33Tucker Carlson?

  Do we set international energy prices in the United States?

• 2:09:36Speaker 04

  In some ways, we do, because our own market and our own production has a whole lot to do with what those world costs are gonna be.

• 2:09:43Tucker Carlson?

  If you took Saudi energy production, or Qatari energy production, or Emirati energy production offline...

• 2:09:48Speaker 04

  And that is making an assumption that if there were regime change, that they would be more effective at attacking than we would be defending. And that's a pretty tough...

• 2:09:58Tucker Carlson?

  Can we defend the Straits of Hormuz? Can we defend all of that energy infrastructure? Is anyone even asking these questions? Or it's all like a Mark Levin episode, where they're like, "They're bad."

• 2:10:06Speaker 04

  They're certainly asking the questions. That's part of the whole process.

• 2:10:10Tucker Carlson?

  I'm just saying, I've raised this before, and it's like, "Shut up, Qataralson. You're taking money from the jihadis." I've never taken a dime from anybody, obviously. I just care about the United States, and it freaks me out, and no one else seems worried about this.

• 2:10:26Speaker 04

  In caring about the US, you should care about the fact that the proxies of Iran have moved globally. Twelve Central and South American countries have Hezbollah deeply embedded. Venezuela, one of the worst. They're in the Western Hemisphere already. Do we know how many...

• 2:10:41Tucker Carlson?

  Where would you rank that on the list of concerns for the average American? Hezbollah in South America?

• 2:10:47Speaker 04

  I doubt if most Americans think about it. I think about it, because I know what they do. I know that if it weren't for Iran, there wouldn't be Hamas, there wouldn't be the Houthis, there wouldn't be Hezbollah. We wouldn't have the problem on the border with Lebanon, we wouldn't have the problem with Yemen, we wouldn't have the difficult...

• 2:11:01Tucker Carlson?

  What problem on the border with Lebanon? I'm an American, I'm not having any problems on the border with Lebanon right now. I live in Maine. We don't have problems on the border of Lebanon. Like, what are you even talking about? No offense.

• 2:11:11Speaker 04

  There's 700,000 Americans who live in Israel, for one thing. Does that matter to you?

• 2:11:15Tucker Carlson?

  Well, of course, every American life matters to me.

• 2:11:17Speaker 04

  Okay, well, good. Every life, you say, matters the same, so that should matter.

• 2:11:20Tucker Carlson?

  But my country, like, I'm just saying, like...

• 2:11:22Speaker 04

  When they start shelling civilians, and civilians get killed and displaced, that should matter to all of us.

• 2:11:28Tucker Carlson?

  But, I mean, there's a genocide going on, like, in all kinds of different countries. There's a lot that's sad and broken about the world. We know that as Christians, Satan rules the world. But our job as like members of a nation state is to look after our community or families, right? So I don't think any of the concerns that you've just raised, which I think are all real, I'm not disputing them at all, are even in like the top 100 for Americans. So how can the US government be spending this much time and money worrying about things that are not on the list of Americans' concerns? Do we have self-government? Does it matter what Americans actually think, or doesn't it?

• 2:12:05Speaker 04

  Of course it does, but it also matters

• 2:12:07Tucker Carlson?

  How much does it matter?

• 2:12:07Speaker 04

  What the threat is to Americans. Do you think there's a threat to Americans because of the proliferation of the proxies in Iran?

• 2:12:14Tucker Carlson?

  Conceivably there is. I'm not pro-Iran!

• 2:12:17Speaker 04

  But beyond conceivably, do you think that they mean it when they say for 47 years?

• 2:12:22Tucker Carlson?

  We've got a threat from drug cartels like in my town, and no one's doing anything about it at all.

• 2:12:26Speaker 04

  You don't think the president's doing anything about that?

• 2:12:28Tucker Carlson?

  No one's doing anything about it at all, okay? That's a fact. We have a huge country. This is a country the size of New Jersey with no resources. You know, it's just a tiny little country. We're from a huge continental-sized country that's totally diverse, very, very hard to manage and police, and we have a lot of problems. And I just think if you ask Americans, what do they want to spend their time and money worrying about fixing, improving? No one's going to mention the border with Lebanon that I know, do you think?

• 2:13:02Speaker 04

  I doubt they will.

• 2:13:03Tucker Carlson?

  Then why are we doing this? Don't their opinions matter?

• 2:13:06Speaker 04

  I would like to think that there are people that the US government has monitoring what the threats are to Americans long-term.

• 2:13:12Tucker Carlson?

  Sure, yeah, I agree.

• 2:13:13Speaker 04

  Do you think there's a threat? The question is, when people tell you for 47 years... Well, but I don't know that Saddam ever said he was going to take down America. But the Iranian regime has said for 47 years they are. If they had the capacity of a long-range ballistic missile and nuclear capability, do you think they'd light that puppy up and send it to us?

• 2:13:35Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know.

• 2:13:37Speaker 04

  Well, I know this from sitting here last year, four wars that I went through in less than a year. The Iranians rained down ballistic missiles.

• 2:13:44Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask you a question? Like, how much does it matter what Americans think?

• 2:13:49Speaker 04

  Well, it matters every bit what Americans think. That's why Americans vote. It's why Americans have the opportunity to have free speech. We want them to have that.

• 2:13:56Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so what percentage of Americans support a war with Iran?

• 2:14:01Speaker 04

  I don't know. Do you know?

• 2:14:02Tucker Carlson?

  I do. I think it's Ron. I saw the numbers yesterday. I think it was like 21%.

• 2:14:05Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:14:07Tucker Carlson?

  Is that enough to have a war with Ron?

• 2:14:09Speaker 04

  We don't live in a world where you have a poll taken to find out whether our policy should be a particular direction.

• 2:14:18Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I thought, I thought you just said that we vote.

• 2:14:21Speaker 04

  That's direct democracy. No, we care deeply about it. But on the other hand, do we make the decisions of foreign policy and even domestic policy based on what the latest poll number is?

• 2:14:30Tucker Carlson?

  We care deeply about it in what sense? If we're ignoring it, then in what sense do we quote "care deeply about it"?

• 2:14:36Speaker 04

  Well, I think we care deeply when we see there's a threat.

• 2:14:38Tucker Carlson?

  No, but about Americans' opinions. So you've got 350 million Americans. They vote. They voted in this last election on the basis, in part, of the promise, no more wars. So now we're about to have a war, it looks like. 80% of people are against it, in that range, let's say 70%, but nowhere near majority support for this war. And it's not direct democracy, but it is a form of democracy. It's representative democracy.

• 2:15:02Speaker 04

  The ultimate form of democracy in our system, in a republic, because we're not a true democracy, we're a republic.

• 2:15:07Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. Right? It's a mediated democracy.

• 2:15:09Speaker 04

  It'll be an opportunity for Americans to vote if they think that we've made the wrong policy decisions. I personally think the president is making the right policy decisions.

• 2:15:17Tucker Carlson?

  But I guess, but you just said it matters deeply what Americans think. And if the overall majority are against it, in what sense does it matter? Because what I hear is, it matters what they think, but it really doesn't matter what they think because...

• 2:15:30Speaker 04

  No, you take it in. You certainly ingest that.

• 2:15:32Tucker Carlson?

  And then what do you do with it, once you ingest it?

• 2:15:34Speaker 04

  Then you make sure that you have...

• 2:15:37Tucker Carlson?

  You just gotta, it goes out the other end, obviously.

• 2:15:40Speaker 04

  No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't, Tucker. But you also have information that the average American may not have. They may not know what the threat is. How many Americans know that Hezbollah is in 12 Western Hemisphere countries?

• 2:15:53Tucker Carlson?

  How many Americans care?

• 2:15:54Speaker 04

  Well, I would hope they would all care. How many Americans know how many people from Iran, from terrorist cells, have come across Joe Biden's open border? How many Americans care about that?

• 2:16:05Tucker Carlson?

  I definitely care about that.

• 2:16:06Speaker 04

  Okay, you care about it.

• 2:16:07Tucker Carlson?

  Why haven't they been rounded up?

• 2:16:08Speaker 04

  But they're trying. But you've got all these blue state mayors and governors making it very difficult.

• 2:16:14Tucker Carlson?

  I get it.

• 2:16:14Speaker 04

  But thank God President Trump is trying to get it done.

• 2:16:17Tucker Carlson?

  Look, I'm totally all for that, completely. I guess what I'm saying is that... Most Americans, overall, I've never met an American who thinks, other than like the people who have ideological reasons to pretend they think it, that the imminent threat to America is anything having to do with Iran. The imminent threats to America include like bankruptcy from too much debt, your son ODing on fentanyl, your neighborhood completely changing because unlike Israel, Americans don't have a right to their country, it can just be completely changed by their legislature. New people can show up from foreign countries and not speak your language and there's nothing you can do about it because you don't have a right, because you're not Bibi. Can you feel the resentment because it's real? I'm not against Israel, I'm against the total destruction-

• 2:16:58Speaker 04

  You hide that very well.

• 2:17:00Tucker Carlson?

  I'm mad at my lawmakers for not protecting my country with the care they've protected Israel.

• 2:17:06Speaker 04

  I don't think that your country, my country, our country, has spent that much time protecting Israel. I asked you a little bit ago-

• 2:17:14Tucker Carlson?

  They spent no time protecting my country!

• 2:17:16Speaker 04

  No, I ask you, well, actually, they do.

• 2:17:19Tucker Carlson?

  How?

• 2:17:20Speaker 04

  They are the tip of the spear. Every enemy they have is our enemy.

• 2:17:23Tucker Carlson?

  Protecting our country?

• 2:17:24Speaker 04

  Things that are targeted toward us often go through them.

• 2:17:27Tucker Carlson?

  How do we have 60 million illegal aliens if they protected my country?

• 2:17:30Speaker 04

  Well, that we didn't protect our country because we had a president that opened up the borders and didn't give a rip that many people coming in.

• 2:17:36Tucker Carlson?

  This has been going on since Reagan, since Reagan, 1986. That's 40 years this year.

• 2:17:39Speaker 04

  Give President Trump the credit for having closed the border.

• 2:17:41Tucker Carlson?

  I'm giving, I love the fact, I campaigned for Trump because he said he would close the border, he did. Amen, thank you, Trump. But we had Reagan, then we had Bush, then we had Clinton, then we had Bush again, ugh, then we had that guy, Obama, and then, you know the presidents? And they all presided over my country's total transformation from a nice, clean, affluent, orderly society into like, pretty kind of third world, actually. That's not protecting us, that's behaving with total contempt for my country.

• 2:18:15Speaker 04

  You said a moment ago that we do more, are you inferred, that we do more for Israel than we do for ourselves? Do you believe that?

• 2:18:23Tucker Carlson?

  No, I didn't say we do more for Israel. It's like, but where's the care? Where's the concern? Where's the, holy smokes, there are drug cartels in your neighborhood? You're telling me about the border with Lebanon and Hezbollah, or Hezbollah, or whatever you call it, in some Latin American country? I don't care. There are drug cartels in my neighborhood. I know people who've died of fentanyl ODs.

• 2:18:42Speaker 04

  Where did the fentanyl come from? Probably from China.

• 2:18:44Tucker Carlson?

  From Mexico.

• 2:18:46Speaker 04

  From China through Mexico?

• 2:18:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, the precursors chemicals, they say, come from China. I get it.

• 2:18:50Speaker 04

  And who's in that axis with China? Iran?

• 2:18:53Tucker Carlson?

  Larry Fink is in that axis with, no, actually, actually, the heads of our biggest corporations are in that axis with China. I don't care about Iran at all. I care about America. And if blowing up Iran makes my country richer and safer, I'm for it. And if it doesn't, I'm totally opposed. It's that simple. I think most Americans feel that way, no?

• 2:19:16Speaker 04

  I asked you a question a little bit ago, you never got back to, because I think it's an important one. Because one of the things that I sense a tension with you, you feel like that we do too much for Israel, we're getting nothing from it. And I ask you, how many?

• 2:19:29Tucker Carlson?

  No, I don't think we're getting nothing from it.

• 2:19:30Speaker 04

  How many boots on the ground has the US placed on behalf of Israel?

• 2:19:37Tucker Carlson?

  However many went to Iraq, we did that for Israel.

• 2:19:39Speaker 04

  No, I don't think we did.

• 2:19:41Tucker Carlson?

  But you said we did it because of 9/11?

• 2:19:43Speaker 04

  That was the US justification for it.

• 2:19:46Tucker Carlson?

  But it wasn't for 9/11. So what was the actual reason?

• 2:19:50Speaker 04

  Well, that's, the US government told us it was for 9/11. They told us that they were part of it, that they had weapons of mass destruction.

• 2:19:56Tucker Carlson?

  But they knew they had nothing to do with 9/11, obviously. There's no evidence. So what was the actual reason?

• 2:20:00Speaker 04

  Israel was not in that component.

• 2:20:02Tucker Carlson?

  Israel had no influence on our decision to invade Iraq? That's not what the people who made the decision say. They say, Israel.

• 2:20:09Speaker 04

  Well, let me get back to the point.

• 2:20:10Tucker Carlson?

  Gave us that information about the fake weapons of mass destruction. Where do you think that came from? It came from Bibi.

• 2:20:14Speaker 04

  The question was, how many Americans put their boots on the ground for Israel? The answer is zero.

• 2:20:18Tucker Carlson?

  Everybody who served in Iraq put their boots on the ground for Israel.

• 2:20:21Speaker 04

  No, they did not.

• 2:20:23Tucker Carlson?

  Where did we get the information about the weapons of mass destruction that wasn't real?

• 2:20:26Speaker 04

  We didn't get that from, you're saying we got that from Israel? That Israel was one pushed us into that?

• 2:20:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, absolutely.

• 2:20:32Speaker 04

  You really believe that?

• 2:20:33Tucker Carlson?

  I know that for a fact. And so does every- Yes, this has been widely written about and discussed. And I'm not attacking Israel. They thought it was in their interest to take out a government that was paying the families to suicide bombers. I get it. I'm not mad at Israel about that. I never have been. I'm mad at the Bush administration and all the people who went along with this to the detriment of my country. That's who I'm mad at, not Israel. Bibi is doing what he can for his country, whether you agree with him or not. I want my leaders to do the same for my country. That's it.

• 2:21:03Speaker 04

  I think the present leadership is doing just that. I truly do. And I don't think that it's at all accurate to even intimate that tiny little Israel is pushing the US into something it does not want to do. I totally...

• 2:21:18Tucker Carlson?

  Our leaders appear to want to do it. Our public does not want to do it at all. The public does not want war with Iran. Bibi does. He's gotten seven, seven trips to the White House. The average American doesn't...

• 2:21:32Speaker 04

  But the question would be...

• 2:21:33Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on. The average American doesn't have that level of access, and a foreign leader does. Seven in one year, and now we're moving toward war with Iran. The average American doesn't want that war. The average American is outraged. Don't you understand? I'm not attacking Bibi at all.

• 2:21:49Speaker 04

  I understand that we have the strongest president I've ever seen in my lifetime, going back to Eisenhower, for gosh sake.

• 2:21:54Tucker Carlson?

  For a second, if you're an American...

• 2:21:55Speaker 04

  No, no, no. Listen to me, Tucker, for gosh sake.

• 2:21:57Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not attacking Trump. I like Trump.

• 2:21:59Speaker 04

  I know, but you're making it sound like that he is being pulled into something that he really doesn't want to do, or pulled into something because he's persuaded...

• 2:22:07Tucker Carlson?

  I'm neither saying that nor implying it.

• 2:22:09Speaker 04

  I was in the meeting last week. I was in the meetings last summer. I can assure you, President Trump is not being led into something at all by Prime Minister Netanyahu.

• 2:22:20Tucker Carlson?

  To be clear, I'm neither saying that nor implying it. What I am stating out loud is true, and that's that Prime Minister Netanyahu, Bibi Netanyahu, has way more influence over Americans' foreign policy than Americans do. And we know this because he wants a war with Iran, the overwhelming majority of Americans don't want a war with Iran, and we're very likely to get a war with Iran. So who has more influence, Benjamin Netanyahu or 80% of Americans? And I'm saying that's outrageous. That's all I'm saying.

• 2:22:51Speaker 04

  I would counter that. Bibi Netanyahu does not want a war with Iran. To say that he wants a war? You know who's going to be at the very front of that? His people. And I don't agree with that. I'm with him enough to know, he does not want a war.

• 2:23:07Tucker Carlson?

  He doesn't.

• 2:23:08Speaker 04

  Does he think that there may be a necessity of taking a war? In order to prevent an attack on not just Israel, but on the United States?

• 2:23:18Tucker Carlson?

  But I think I know too much. I mean, let's be real, okay? So there was, you know, Steve Witkoff, in my opinion, is just a sterling guy, just a good guy.

• 2:23:25Speaker 04

  He's a good guy.

• 2:23:26Tucker Carlson?

  That's my view. And kind of pro-American and just couldn't be nicer. And wants the right thing, and he's probably Trump's best friend. He, and maybe Jared too, are involved in a negotiation with Hamas.

• 2:23:41Speaker 04

  Are you mean with Iran?

• 2:23:42Tucker Carlson?

  With Iran, I'm so sorry. And the Israeli government short-circus it by hitting Iran. So like, they-

• 2:23:54Speaker 04

  What do you mean, they short-circuited by hitting Iran?

• 2:23:58Tucker Carlson?

  They did everything they could to shut down the negotiations between the United States, the Trump administration, and Iran. And, look, I wouldn't, they're acting, again, in their own interest. But our country should also act in its own interest, that's all I'm saying. And so don't tell me that Bibi doesn't want a war with Iran.

• 2:24:21Speaker 04

  He doesn't. If Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff could be successful in getting the president's demands, and keep in mind, these are the president's demands.

• 2:24:30Tucker Carlson?

  What are those demands?

• 2:24:31Speaker 04

  No enrichment, no nuclear weapon, quit killing your own people in the streets, but the tens of thousands, you and I both agree that it's a horrible thing to kill your own citizens, which Iran is doing.

• 2:24:41Tucker Carlson?

  It's a horrible thing to kill anybody's citizens.

• 2:24:43Speaker 04

  Anybody's citizens, we agree on that.

• 2:24:45Tucker Carlson?

  Except that they're 14-year-olds, working for Hamas, but whatever.

• 2:24:49Speaker 04

  It's still a tragedy.

• 2:24:50Tucker Carlson?

  No, it is, sorry, I'm being a jerk, okay?

• 2:24:52Speaker 04

  You really are being a jerk.

• 2:24:53Tucker Carlson?

  I am, I know, I know, I know. I'm such a jerk!

• 2:24:56Speaker 04

  I'm gonna write down, Tucker Carlson admitted, he's a jerk.

• 2:25:00Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I am a jerk, everyone knows that, I mean, I'm trying to, really trying, okay. No, but I agree with you 100%, of course it's a tragedy.

• 2:25:06Speaker 04

  If that could be done, and I pray it can.

• 2:25:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:25:09Speaker 04

  And you know why? Number one, because it would be wonderful for everybody. Number two, if there is a war, you're gonna be 6,000 miles from it. You know where I'm gonna be? In the Bullseye. Do I want there to be a war? No. Do Israelis want there to be a war? No.

• 2:25:23Tucker Carlson?

  How many, I keep hearing Israel's fighting a seven-front war. Right now, what are those seven fronts?

• 2:25:31Speaker 04

  Well, you've got Lebanon, you have Egypt. Now, Egypt is not an active war, but you have the Muslim Brotherhood within Egypt. You've got the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, you've got Syria.

• 2:25:42Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, they're fighting a war with Jordan?

• 2:25:44Speaker 04

  With the Muslim Brotherhood that is in Jordan, not directly with Jordan, not the government of Jordan.

• 2:25:49Tucker Carlson?

  But are they?

• 2:25:49Speaker 04

  You've got Hezbollah, you've got?

• 2:25:51Tucker Carlson?

  In Lebanon.

• 2:25:52Speaker 04

  Houthis.

• 2:25:53Tucker Carlson?

  In Yemen.

• 2:25:53Speaker 04

  You have Hamas in Gaza. You have the threats that come from Iran. And how many is that?

• 2:26:02Tucker Carlson?

  That's seven.

• 2:26:02Speaker 04

  That's seven, okay. I'd give you an eighth one, you know the eighth one? The media. Now, I would tell you, there's an eighth front war, they fight-

• 2:26:11Tucker Carlson?

  How many journalists has Israel killed in Gaza?

• 2:26:14Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 2:26:15Tucker Carlson?

  Over 200. It seems like a lot.

• 2:26:17Speaker 04

  Now, are they real journalists? Because a lot of those people that were supposedly journalists were actually Hamas fighters that are documented Hamas fighters, so that's why I ask you, how many are actual journalists?

• 2:26:26Tucker Carlson?

  You know, I don't know, but a lot of them were. I mean, they worked for big news organizations and they had press written on their chests.

• 2:26:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, some of them had UNRWA cars and they were also working for Hamas.

• 2:26:36Tucker Carlson?

  So, are you concerned, so do you think that over 200 journalists killed in Gaza are all fake journalists who deserve to be killed?

• 2:26:41Speaker 04

  I have no idea how many, the total number is, I don't have their credentials, but I know that there were quite a few that were actually Hamas fighters that protected Hamas. Ask the hostages. The hostages came back and they started telling about the number of people that were doctors in hospitals that held them hostage in their homes. Or the number of people who were pretending to be journalists who were actually holding them hostage. I'm just telling you that there's, there's a lot more to what-

• 2:27:06Tucker Carlson?

  As someone whose tax dollars helped pay for killing all those civilians in Gaza, I feel like I have a right to know how many were killed. And Israel won't let outside observers in to figure it out. And I'm frustrated, I just want to say that. My last question's about Christians. Both Christians who visit and Christians who live here, particularly in the West Bank. I spoke to someone recently, a Christian minister who grew up in a town right outside Bethlehem. We would know it as Shepherd's Field. In the New Testament where the shepherds were tending their flocks in Matthew. And of course, the angels come and announce the arrival of Jesus in nearby Bethlehem. His family's been Christian, he says, for 2,000 years.

• 2:27:52Tucker Carlson?

  He says where he grew up is now surrounded by settlements of people who are not from Israel at all. A lot of them are from the United States, Jewish settlements. They have different roads that the native Christians are not allowed to use. I don't quite know how that works. And he described a story where his mother was shot outside their house by an IDF soldier for reasons no one ever explained. She survived, but no one was ever punished for it or even explained why they did it. And he basically described being terrorized by settlers.

• 2:28:27Tucker Carlson?

  And I wonder if that's a concern for you, for the native population, the indigenous population?

• 2:28:32Speaker 04

  Did you say this happened in Bethlehem?

• 2:28:36Tucker Carlson?

  It happened in Shepherd's Field, so it's a Christian village. Bet Sahur, I think, is its name, right outside Bethlehem.

• 2:28:44Speaker 04

  If it's in Bethlehem...

• 2:28:46Tucker Carlson?

  It's not in Bethlehem. Again, I think it's Bet Sahur, I believe, is the name of the village.

• 2:28:50Speaker 04

  Because there are no Israelis in Bethlehem, none. There are no Jews in Bethlehem.

• 2:28:56Tucker Carlson?

  Are there new settlements outside Bethlehem where he is from?

• 2:28:58Speaker 04

  Over in Area C, but not in Area A. There are none.

• 2:29:03Tucker Carlson?

  Well, he describes the town he grew up in. And I guess I wonder why a Christian, whose family's been there for 2,000 years...

• 2:29:12Speaker 04

  There are Palestinian Christians throughout today in Samaria. That's true. I've been over to visit them.

• 2:29:18Tucker Carlson?

  I know you have. I know you have, and some have been, you know...

• 2:29:22Speaker 04

  We've advocated for some that are Muslim, but they're American citizens. And we advocated because there was...

• 2:29:28Tucker Carlson?

  But why can't they just drive into Jerusalem to go to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre? Why do they need a permit to do that if they're from there?

• 2:29:34Speaker 04

  Because of the acts of terrorism that has made it impossible to do it. You know how many suicide...

• 2:29:39Tucker Carlson?

  But they're Christians.

• 2:29:40Speaker 04

  You asked this question. So what do we do? Just say, "You're a Christian?" "Oh, yeah, I'm a Christian, but you're wearing a suicide bomb?"

• 2:29:46Tucker Carlson?

  Do Christians do suicide bombs?

• 2:29:49Speaker 04

  They could, they could. If all they have to do is just say, announce, "I'm a Christian." There were over a thousand-

• 2:29:55Tucker Carlson?

  Why not just get an identity card that says, "I'm Christian"?

• 2:29:56Speaker 04

  Let me just finish this. Before Israel put the green line up, and before they took great care to put checkpoints in place, there were over a thousand suicide bombers in one year.

• 2:30:11Tucker Carlson?

  It was awful. I remember it, but I don't think any of them were Christians and-

• 2:30:15Speaker 04

  They may not have been.

• 2:30:16Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but-

• 2:30:17Speaker 04

  But my point is-

• 2:30:17Tucker Carlson?

  We could find out if they were.

• 2:30:19Speaker 04

  So you're saying we just trust somebody if they come up and say, "I'm a Christian. I just want to go to the Holy Sepulcher. Let me in"?

• 2:30:24Tucker Carlson?

  What I'm saying is that Christians have a right to go to the Holy Sepulcher. Israel does not own it. They've had possession of it since 1967. It doesn't belong to Bibi. It belongs to me and you and every other Christian.

• 2:30:34Speaker 04

  Bibi was probably a young person. I'm not even sure if he was-

• 2:30:38Tucker Carlson?

  No Christian should ever be barred from the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.

• 2:30:42Speaker 04

  Should Christians be barred from Joseph's tomb in Nablus?

• 2:30:46Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. Let's just start with the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.

• 2:30:47Speaker 04

  Okay, let's start with the church.

• 2:30:48Tucker Carlson?

  And I don't understand on what grounds they are barred. Well, they can't if they're Christians at Bet Sahur. So I don't understand why. They're a threat? They're not a threat. And why won't you, as the Christian minister, US ambassador to the state of Israel, say to the prime minister, "You can't allow this. Your country exists in part because American Christians support you, so you have to treat us well."

• 2:31:12Speaker 04

  Part of the problem, Tucker, is that in the Palestinian Authority, and that's what we're talking about, there are Christians. Look, I know some Christians who live in Bethlehem, and that is Area A. Bethlehem was 80-plus percent Christian before Oslo. 80% Christian, less than 20% Muslim. Today it's flipped. It's now 80-plus percent Muslim. It's very few Christians. And some of the Christians that I personally know and know well are Zionist. Let that surprise you. They're Zionists. They're hardcore Zionists.

• 2:31:43Tucker Carlson?

  And some are really anti-Zionist.

• 2:31:45Speaker 04

  Let me finish my train of thought here. Okay. So in the Palestinian Authority- They still teach children, from the time they're five years old, that the greatest thing in the world is to kill Jews. And if they end up being a martyr, and if they kill Jews, they will get a pension for life if they die. And if they don't, they'll get a paycheck for life, and their families will. And it's called the Prisoners and Martyrs Fund. It's, we call it Pay for Slay in the US. It is against our law.

• 2:32:12Tucker Carlson?

  Are a lot of Christians collecting on that?

• 2:32:13Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 2:32:14Tucker Carlson?

  Zero. So my question remains, and I'm a little bit frustrated at this point. Because I'm not defending Hamas. I hate suicide bombing. I hate suicide. I hate violence. I hate the killing of children, period. Why can't a Christian who was born there, whose family's been there for 2,000 years, following Jesus for 2,000 years, drive, because it's really close, to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher? He poses no threat. And why can't the United States government advocate for him to do that?

• 2:32:41Speaker 04

  We do advocate for Americans, because that's our job. And it doesn't matter whether Palestinian or Israeli. We do that. But as far as when they...

• 2:32:51Tucker Carlson?

  How many Americans are being held in Israeli prisons right now?

• 2:32:54Speaker 04

  Total, I don't have an exact number on that. I don't know.

• 2:32:59Tucker Carlson?

  How can you advocate for them if you don't know how many there are?

• 2:33:01Speaker 04

  Well, everyone that we know, we go visit. Our consular goes there almost every week and visits the Americans. It's not a large number, as far as Americans. But when we have them, we go. We go to their trials, when they're on trial. So yeah, we do a lot more than you've given us credit for.

• 2:33:16Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I'm giving you credit? No, no, you understand.

• 2:33:18Speaker 04

  Okay, please. Thank you for doing that, because we don't get much. We don't get much.

• 2:33:21Tucker Carlson?

  By the way, not every embassy does that. I happen to know for a fact. They don't advocate for Americans in jail.

• 2:33:26Speaker 04

  We take our consular services across into the Palestinian Authority and help people over there. Some of those are Christians, some are not. Some are Muslim. But if they're Americans, and they have American citizenship, an American passport, we help them.

• 2:33:41Tucker Carlson?

  That makes me so happy to hear.

• 2:33:42Speaker 04

  I go to Ramallah. I sit down with the Vice President and the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority. We try to work ways to make things better. But the reason that sometimes it's not just a absolute free passage, I'll tell you why, because there are too many incidences of terrorist acts, and Israel is not going to allow themselves...

• 2:34:06Tucker Carlson?

  But the Christians didn't do it, and they're not going to do it. And Christians pay for all of this. They pay for a lot of this.

• 2:34:13Speaker 04

  It's very, you can say it's unfair, but here's...

• 2:34:15Tucker Carlson?

  You can't punish the innocent. How's that?

• 2:34:17Speaker 04

  But you gotta somehow make sure that you screen people, and that's why the checkpoints... Let me tell you what happened not too very long ago. We had a humanitarian aid truck that came across from Jordan. The driver was supposedly vetted. He was a former Jordanian military person. He came across the checkpoint. Everything should be fine, right? He gets out of his truck, he takes a gun, and he shoots two of the people...

• 2:34:40Tucker Carlson?

  I believe it.

• 2:34:41Speaker 04

  ...who are the Israelis at the checkpoint, one of whom was a young person, less than a year in the job. His mother teaches in the American school, where our embassy people go in Herzliya. I get to make the phone call to the mother. I'm gonna tell you something, it was not the most pleasant day of my life.

• 2:34:57Tucker Carlson?

  It sounds awful.

• 2:34:57Speaker 04

  It is awful. And so those kind of incidences are the reason that it is difficult to go from Judea-Samaria, or the West Bank, call it whatever you want, but if you're in Area A, which is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, and your education has been that killing Jews is a wonderful thing...

• 2:35:16Tucker Carlson?

  I'm talking about the Christians.

• 2:35:17Speaker 04

  But the Christians, if they go to those schools, they're still gonna get that education.

• 2:35:20Tucker Carlson?

  When was the last time there was a suicide bomb detonated by a Christian?

• 2:35:23Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 2:35:24Tucker Carlson?

  Never? Let me ask you this...

• 2:35:26Speaker 04

  Look, I'm not trying to defend, but I'm saying to you that if the curriculum doesn't get changed, if the pay-for-slay doesn't get changed...

• 2:35:32Tucker Carlson?

  That doesn't apply.

• 2:35:33Speaker 04

  You have a culture. Well, you say it doesn't apply. Maybe it never has happened. I don't know whether it has ever happened.

• 2:35:41Tucker Carlson?

  When will Palestinians in the West Bank have the same rights as Israelis in the West Bank?

• 2:35:46Speaker 04

  Are you talking about the ones that live in the Palestinian Authority?

• 2:35:49Tucker Carlson?

  I'm talking about people who live in the villages they grew up in. They changed hands, went from one government to another in 1967.

• 2:35:54Speaker 04

  It makes the difference whether they live under the Palestinian Authority government or whether they live under Israeli. If they live under Area A, do you know the difference?

• 2:35:59Tucker Carlson?

  I do.

• 2:36:00Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:36:01Tucker Carlson?

  I'm saying...

• 2:36:01Speaker 04

  If they live under Area A, they live under the Palestinian Authority government. They don't live under Israeli government.

• 2:36:05Tucker Carlson?

  But it's controlled by the Israeli government, completely. There's no airport, they control utilities. I mean, this is... it's silly. I understand there's a form of self-government, but the big decisions are made by the Israeli government, obviously. I've been there, I know this. And you know it too. So, how long does this go on? You say that God gave the nation of Israel the right to this land. Why not just take it, declare it Israel, and make everyone a citizen? I don't understand why that's not happening.

• 2:36:27Speaker 04

  Well, you know what? There are people who think that that would be a much better future.

• 2:36:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, what do you think?

• 2:36:32Speaker 04

  I think it very well could be, and if you ask certain people living in the PA, under their very corrupt government, where 91% of the people think the government is hopelessly corrupt, that's what the numbers are, they would tell you that they would be better off if the Israelis were the governing authority.

• 2:36:48Tucker Carlson?

  Everyone gets voting rights. Would that be the case?

• 2:36:51Speaker 04

  If they were all under Israeli authority? You know, there are... do you... you realize there are lots of Arab Israelis?

• 2:36:58Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 2:36:59Speaker 04

  And they vote? Do you know they serve in the Knesset?

• 2:37:02Tucker Carlson?

  I'm very aware of that, and I'm just wondering...

• 2:37:04Speaker 04

  And they serve on the Supreme Court? And did you know that it was an Arab who sentenced a former president and prime minister to prison?

• 2:37:11Tucker Carlson?

  I know, so the question... I just want to know what's gonna happen.

• 2:37:13Speaker 04

  Do you know how many Jews get to help govern Saudi Arabia, or Qatar, or Syria?

• 2:37:20Tucker Carlson?

  I... I'm not... I'm not attacking Jews, I'm just saying...

• 2:37:23Speaker 04

  This is a much more open government in society, and you make it sound like that the Israelis...

• 2:37:28Tucker Carlson?

  I don't make it sound that way, I'm just asking... I... no, I'm not attacking the nation of Israel, I'm just wondering what the plan is. So I've been hearing my whole life how bad the PA is, okay, great, but what's the plan here? So they're moving all these Americans, people from around the world, into settlements subsidized by Americans in the West Bank?

• 2:37:47Speaker 04

  No, they're not moving them from around the world to the settlements, they're people who make aliyah, they come.

• 2:37:52Tucker Carlson?

  I'm just saying... I get it.

• 2:37:53Speaker 04

  And these are Israelis who live in Israel.

• 2:37:56Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there are a lot of people who come...

• 2:37:57Speaker 04

  And Aria Sea is Israel.

• 2:37:58Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 2:37:59Speaker 04

  Okay?

• 2:38:00Tucker Carlson?

  But, does it remain a territory under military control forever? Does it just become part of the state?

• 2:38:06Speaker 04

  You're talking about the Palestinian Authority?

• 2:38:08Tucker Carlson?

  Correct.

• 2:38:09Speaker 04

  That's the big question. Do you believe in a two-state solution? And if you do, I would... I would show you a map. And I would ask you, because this is...

• 2:38:18Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. I don't know what I think. I just think you need to treat people like human beings, and that's not happening, obviously.

• 2:38:24Speaker 04

  And that would be, you don't glorify their killing.

• 2:38:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, let them go to their church if they want.

• 2:38:29Speaker 04

  See the yellow parts?

• 2:38:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:31Speaker 04

  That's Palestinian Authority. The tan parts? That's Area B. That's the area that is mixed. Israel has military authority, but the Palestinians can live anywhere they want to in there. And the blue area, that's Area C.

• 2:38:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:47Speaker 04

  Area C is Israel. And Israelis can live in Israel. That's what it is. Now, when people say they want a two-state solution, I love to show them a map like this, and I ask them, "Where does that state line up?" There is no contiguous way in which it works.

• 2:39:03Tucker Carlson?

  You know, we've got a lot of states in the United States that need help, so I'm not going to weigh in on other people's states, to be totally honest. I just don't want to pay for it anymore, and just want to fix our own country. But let me ask you one last question, which is, how Christians are treated in Jerusalem. I've talked to so many who've been spit on.

• 2:39:18Speaker 04

  Really? So many? How many?

• 2:39:21Tucker Carlson?

  Uh, well, two yesterday.

• 2:39:23Speaker 04

  Two, okay.

• 2:39:23Tucker Carlson?

  Both Catholic clergy, and both told me the same thing. Anglican clergy, I interviewed.

• 2:39:29Speaker 04

  I just had dinner recently with a Greek patriarch.

• 2:39:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there have been a million stories about this.

• 2:39:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know. There are instances where Christians get heckled. Usually, it's people who are wearing clerical robes, and they're wearing crosses, and it shouldn't happen. It's horrible. It's as bad for that to happen as it is to spit on somebody wearing a kippah in New York City.

• 2:39:46Tucker Carlson?

  Hey, great.

• 2:39:47Speaker 04

  Terrible. It's horrible.

• 2:39:48Tucker Carlson?

  And actually, I should, to be fair, there is, and I just learned this, a Jewish-Israeli group that keeps track of Christians being spit on in Jerusalem, because they're offended by it. And God bless them for keeping track and for being offended by it. But there are an awful lot of examples of that. And my question to you, you're against it, of course. You're a Christian clergy.

• 2:40:09Speaker 04

  Horribly against it.

• 2:40:10Tucker Carlson?

  What is that?

• 2:40:11Speaker 04

  But so is the Prime Minister, the President, the Foreign Minister. So is...

• 2:40:14Tucker Carlson?

  I get it.

• 2:40:15Speaker 04

  I think every decent-thinking person is.

• 2:40:18Tucker Carlson?

  But what is it? Why are they spitting on Christians?

• 2:40:20Speaker 04

  It's very limited. It's very, very isolated.

• 2:40:23Tucker Carlson?

  But where does it come from?

• 2:40:23Speaker 04

  But for the most part, you know what? As Christians, we have freedom of movement here. Tucker, I go to church every Sunday. I play bass guitar in my church band.

• 2:40:31Tucker Carlson?

  I get it.

• 2:40:31Speaker 04

  I don't get hassled being a Christian. Everyone here knows I'm the first evangelical to be ambassador to Israel. Do you think they hate me here? No.

• 2:40:40Tucker Carlson?

  Are evangelicals recognized by the State of Israel?

• 2:40:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:40:43Tucker Carlson?

  They are?

• 2:40:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:40:45Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 2:40:45Speaker 04

  And welcomed and appreciated.

• 2:40:48Tucker Carlson?

  No, but like as a religious, like are there evangelical churches in Israel?

• 2:40:53Speaker 04

  My gosh, yes. There's 184,000 Christians in Israel.

• 2:40:57Tucker Carlson?

  I know, I know.

• 2:40:58Speaker 04

  Much larger than.

• 2:40:59Tucker Carlson?

  But there are churches that are non-denominational evangelical here.

• 2:41:03Speaker 04

  Of course. There are, and it ranges from, when you say non-denominational, some of them are affiliated Baptist Assembly of God. Some of them are truly non-denominational, Pentecostal, some are Messianic churches.

• 2:41:15Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:41:16Speaker 04

  Where most of the people are ethnically Jewish, but they are Messianic.

• 2:41:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:41:23Speaker 04

  They believe in Jesus. There are a lot of those churches, and they're spread out all over Israel.

• 2:41:27Tucker Carlson?

  So, um.

• 2:41:28Speaker 04

  And there's freedom.

• 2:41:29Tucker Carlson?

  You don't, oh, I know a lot of Christians in Israel, by the way, yes. And as I said, I really hope I can come back and talk to more.

• 2:41:37Speaker 04

  But. And come to church with me.

• 2:41:39Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I definitely would love that. Why, and I mean it too.

• 2:41:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:41:42Tucker Carlson?

  Why would people spit on, like where does that come from?

• 2:41:45Speaker 04

  I think it's from an evil heart.

• 2:41:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:48Speaker 04

  What else would it be?

• 2:41:49Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 2:41:50Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't think anybody would ever spit on another person, even if it was, you know, I don't care what a person's religion is or what a person's nationality is. I don't hate anybody. I wouldn't spit on anybody. I wouldn't heckle anyone. And I find it repulsive. Nothing about it is defensible.

• 2:42:05Tucker Carlson?

  I will say that the one, this was off camera, but I interviewed this Christian leader here. And I said, oh, that's so awful. And he goes, you know, I feel blessed because Jesus was spit on. And it's an opportunity for humility for me. And I thought, wow, that's a Christian.

• 2:42:22Speaker 04

  Let me say this, I've been coming in and out of Jerusalem and Israel for 50, well, soon to be 53 years. Before I came as ambassador, I made over 100 trips here. I've never been spat on. I've never had someone yell at me. I've never had an experience where I felt uncomfortable or that I was unwelcome.

• 2:42:46Tucker Carlson?

  If you spit on someone wearing a yarmulke in New York City, you go right to jail. They would not put up with that for one second. And they do put up with it here because it still happens.

• 2:42:53Speaker 04

  I'm not sure they do go to jail in New York City. They should. And they should go to jail here.

• 2:42:58Tucker Carlson?

  I'm against it.

• 2:42:59Speaker 04

  They should go to jail here.

• 2:43:00Tucker Carlson?

  Amen. So there were all these Christian ministers who were brought over here evangelicals in December. And I think mostly to attack me, but also probably that other- Oh, they really weren't here to attack you. I'm just joking. They were attacking me, but whatever. Yeah. And, but they were flown over by the state, the state paid for it, and they had a conference here. I got one of the guides that they received when they arrived, and I think it's real. And it says, "Don't preach about Jesus when you're in Israel. We don't, we don't allow that." "Don't do that." Really? Yep. Why would a Christian minister agree not to preach about Jesus?

• 2:43:42Speaker 04

  I'm not sure, because I have, I've never heard someone tell another Christian minister not to do that.

• 2:43:47Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting. Good. Well, I was, I was totally baffled.

• 2:43:51Speaker 04

  What would be the purpose of going to church as a Christian if you didn't talk about Jesus here?

• 2:43:55Tucker Carlson?

  Couldn't agree more. Thank you.

• 2:43:56Speaker 04

  I can assure you that the church I attend, we talk about Jesus. I mean, we pray in the name of Jesus.

• 2:44:01Tucker Carlson?

  No, no.

• 2:44:01Speaker 04

  I don't get it.

• 2:44:02Tucker Carlson?

  To anyone else outside the church. Are you allowed, like, could I stand in the corner and just tell people about Jesus here?

• 2:44:09Speaker 04

  You could. I'm not saying you'd get applause, or that people-

• 2:44:12Tucker Carlson?

  Right, that's fine.

• 2:44:12Speaker 04

  But I'm, but I'm saying, there are people that-

• 2:44:15Tucker Carlson?

  There's no law against that, though.

• 2:44:16Speaker 04

  Not that I'm aware of. The only laws that, that I know of, you can't proselytize someone under the age of 18, and you cannot offer people things of value in order to cause them to listen to your presentation. For example, I can't say, "Hey, for $10, would you let me give you this gospel track and, and scream at you?" Can't do that.

• 2:44:37Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:44:37Speaker 04

  I don't know if it's enforced. I'm not sure. I don't ever hear anyone arrested for it.

• 2:44:41Tucker Carlson?

  But there're no, there's no law against just like preaching to people.

• 2:44:44Speaker 04

  Walk down to the old city. You'll hear people, you know, out there preaching on the street.

• 2:44:49Tucker Carlson?

  Good.

• 2:44:49Speaker 04

  Now, are they effective? I don't know. I'm not sure that people are stopping and falling on their knees and saying, "This is what I've been waiting for." I don't know. But what I'm telling you is that the idea that you can't say it, I know that there are places- In the rest of this region where you can't do that.

• 2:45:05Tucker Carlson?

  For sure.

• 2:45:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. Qatar, you can't wear a cross in public.

• 2:45:09Tucker Carlson?

  For sure.

• 2:45:09Speaker 04

  You can't pray in public.

• 2:45:11Tucker Carlson?

  I've seen a lot of people wearing crosses in Qatar, but.

• 2:45:14Speaker 04

  In Qatar?

• 2:45:14Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. I have, but I don't know what the laws are. Yeah.

• 2:45:17Speaker 04

  In Saudi Arabia? Don't think so.

• 2:45:20Tucker Carlson?

  I doubt it.

• 2:45:20Speaker 04

  The one place is an exception is the Emiratis, and I love those folks because they are so progressive and they're doing so many things to change the template of things. They have an Abraham house that is, it is a combination synagogue, church, and mosque. That's pretty amazing, isn't it, that they have the same building and they use it for all three of the major religions of the world? And I think that's incredible. But they're really trying to do things that are beyond what anyone else in the region. They changed their textbooks. They teach that Israel is not a nation they should hate or seek to annihilate. They've done some remarkable things.

• 2:46:04Tucker Carlson?

  Have you been following all this stuff in the, I agree with that. They have a Hindu temple in Abu Dhabi. You've been following all this like hate the Muslim stuff going on in the United States on the right?

• 2:46:14Speaker 04

  I hear some of it and it's unpleasant. We shouldn't hate anybody.

• 2:46:18Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 2:46:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's not a good thing. Hate is an evil thing.

• 2:46:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:22Speaker 04

  I don't, you know, sometimes you say, "I don't support child killing." Okay, I don't either, but I don't support hate in any form. I think it's a horrible thing.

• 2:46:31Tucker Carlson?

  That is such a great standard and I want to hold myself to that. And thank you for saying that out loud.

• 2:46:37Speaker 04

  I don't hate you.

• 2:46:39Tucker Carlson?

  I hope not! Governor, Ambassador, thank you very much for spending all this time. I appreciate it.

• 2:46:44Speaker 04

  I'm glad you came.

• 2:46:45Tucker Carlson?

  Oh.

• 2:46:46Speaker 04

  Please come back.

• 2:46:47Tucker Carlson?

  I will.

• 2:46:47Speaker 04

  Go with me to some places and a church. I want you to see. That is, Christians, we're pretty free here.

• 2:46:56Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 2:46:56Speaker 04

  Appreciate it.

• 2:46:58Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 2:46:58Speaker 04

  And welcome.