390: How to Sabotage The Enemy, But Also Yourself. With JP Dinnell

>Join Jocko UNDERGROUND < https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content Jocko and JP Dinnell discuss sabotage and the protocols to effectively sabotage the enemy. Also, yourself. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 390 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Also joining us tonight JP Danelle. Good evening JP. Good evening. The President of the United States of America authorized by Act of Congress July 9th, 1918 takes pleasure in presenting the distinguished service cross to Colonel William Joseph Wild Bill Donovan, United States Army for extraordinary heroism in action while serving with 165th Infantry Regiment, 42nd Division in France, July 28th through the 21st, 1918.

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Donovan led his battalion across the River Arc and captured important enemy strongholds. He was in advance of the division for four days.

• 0:58Jocko Willink?

  All the while, under shell and machine gun fire from the enemy who were on three sides of him. And he was repeated repeatedly and persistently counterattacked, being wounded twice.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Donovan's coolness and efficient leadership rendered possible the maintenance of this position.

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  The President of the United States of America in the name of Congress takes pleasure in presenting the Medal of Honor to Lieutenant Colonel William Joseph Wild Bill Donovan, United States Army for extraordinary heroism on 14 and 15 October, 1918, while serving as commanding officer 165th Infantry, 42nd Division, American Expeditionary Forces in action at Landres, A St. George, France. Lieutenant Colonel Donovan personally led the assaulting wave in an attack upon a very strongly organized

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  position. And when our troops were suffering heavy casualties, he encouraged all near him by his example, moving among his men in exposed positions, reorganizing decimated platoons and accompanying them forward in attacks.

• 2:17Jocko Willink?

  When he was wounded in the leg by machine gun bullets, he refused to be evacuated and continued with his unit until it withdrew to a less exposed position.

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. The nation's two highest awards for one man. And by the way, I've written a lot of awards in my time and you don't get to just throw someone's nickname in there. You don't get to say Joseph, William Joseph Wild Bill Donovan. That's in both those official copies.

• 2:54Jocko Willink?

  Guy's awarded the Disseminate Service Medal, Medal of Honor, the National Security Medal, the Silver Star, Purple Heart for actions in World War II as well.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  When he was awarded the Medal of Honor, he actually received it. He was awarded it in New York City in front of about 4,000 veterans.

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  And what he said when he received the award was the award belonged not to him, but quote, "to the boys who are not here, the boys resting under white crosses in France or in the cemeteries in New York."

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  So that's Wild Bill Donovan.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  And he did all kinds of things after World War I and before World War II. So in between, he got out of the army for a while. He became a lawyer. He kind of was a spy. He was a businessman. He was a US attorney. He ran for the governor, governorship of New York, lost. Then once World War II started, he was reinstated in the army as a colonel. And he became, eventually became the Director of the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, which conducted intelligence gathering and recruiting and training of indigenous forces and sabotage and all kinds of espionage and warfare of all kinds in World War II. He was the Director of that.

• 4:17Jocko Willink?

  The OSS was eventually disbanded in 1945 by Truman, but it, the, the beginning or the end of the OSS was where the seeds got planted for what would become the CIG, which is the Central Intelligence Group, which eventually became the CIA, including the CIA Special Activities Division. And the OSS also passed on some lineage theoretically to US SOCOM, which was formed in 1987, but it also unified special operations under one of command. And US SOCOM uses the same symbol for their insignia at, at US SOCOM. And at some point, I'm sure I will do a podcast about William Donovan and about the OSS, or I'll probably

• 5:02Jocko Willink?

  do a bunch of them. But tonight I wanted to discuss a field manual that they published in 1944. And the field manual is called Simple Sabotage. And I think what's so interesting about this, and, and basically, there's a part of this, there's a part of this field manual that's very important from a leadership perspective. And almost everything in there is pertinent from a sabotage perspective. I know I went to a, I went to classes when I was in the military that were basically sabotage classes. I went to, we learned about

• 5:43Jocko Willink?

  targeting, we learned about how to do this type of thing. But you're going to see, as we talk through this, that like everything else, it applies to everything that we do. But what's interesting, I think the way that this applies, it replies almost in a reverse engineering way. Because as you hear about how to screw things up, you can realize that you might be screwing things up that you don't want to screw up. So, let's get into it. JP, Little Sabotage. I figured you liked this one.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  So here we go. Published in 1944, Office of Strategic Services, Washington DC, 17 January 1944. So we're talking Middle World War II. It says, "This simple sabotage field manual, Strategic Services Provisional, is published for the information and guidance of all concerned and will be used as the basic doctrine for Strategic Services training for this subject. The contents of this manual should be carefully controlled and should not be allowed to come into unauthorized hands." There you go. It's been declassified. That's why we got it here.

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, and I was parsing through this, thinking, okay, I'm just gonna not have to cover too much of this stuff. And we'll get to the meat of what I wanted to talk about, which is towards the end. But then this is just also important. It says this, "The purpose of this paper is to characterize simple sabotage, to outline its possible effects, and to present suggestions for inciting and executing it. Sabotage varies from highly technical coup de main, acts that require detailed planning and the use of specially trained operatives, to innumerable simple acts, which the ordinary individual citizen saboteur can perform." And this is what I noticed when I was reading this, all this stuff, and this is why I got

• 7:38Jocko Willink?

  even more into it and decided to cover it, because you realize, when you're running sabotage, all you have to do is screw up a lot of little things.

• 7:49JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  That's all you gotta do. You gotta just screw up a little thing here, little thing there, little something somewhere else. And all of a sudden, those problems compound. And it turns, you know, you just trash things. And sometimes they're so subtle, and that's one of the things that's talked about, so subtle.

• 8:07JP Dinnell?

  I don't even notice.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  You don't even notice it. It's just like, hmm, looks like we're not gonna be able to make payroll. Generally, it's not one big thing. You know, I had this thing with safety. One of my old commanding officers said this. He called it the Swiss cheese effect. And what it was, most when you have a safety incident, oftentimes, it's not due to one catastrophic failure.

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  It's due to a bunch of little failures. And he called it the Swiss cheese effect because he said, listen, Jocko, if you take a piece of Swiss cheese and you put it on a plate, and you take another piece of Swiss cheese and put it on the plate, and you take another piece of Swiss cheese and put it on the plate, and you put four or five pieces of Swiss cheese, you stack them on a plate, most likely, there's not going to be a hole that goes all the way through. But when they line up, that's when you have a problem. And that's oftentimes what happens when there's a safety incident. Again, if you reverse engineer that, and you are trying to make someone have a problem, all you have to do is put some holes in the Swiss cheese.

• 9:19Jocko Willink?

  Now, we as leaders, what we're trying to do is we're trying to stop those holes. So this is one of those things, you've got to look at it from both perspectives. Goes on to say here, this paper is primarily concerned with the latter type, a simple sabotage, does not require specially prepared tools or equipment, is executed by an ordinary citizen who may or may not act individually and without the necessity for active connection with an organized group. And it is carried out in such a way as to involve a minimum danger of injury, detection, or reprisal. Once again, these are things that you don't even know are happening. Little tiny things.

• 10:01Jocko Willink?

  And again, it's important to think about your life. What little things are going on in your life? That you don't really notice. It's just sabotage. Continuing, where destruction is involved, the weapons of the citizen saboteur are salt, nails, candles, pebbles, thread, or any other material he might normally be expected to possess as a householder or as a worker in his particular occupation. His arsenal is the kitchen shelf, the trash pile, his own usual kit of tools and supplies.

• 10:46Jocko Willink?

  The targets of his sabotage are usually objects to which he has normal and inconspicuous access in everyday life.

• 10:54JP Dinnell?

  Just those little things that are out there.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  A second type of simple sabotage requires no destruction, no destructive tools whatsoever, and produces physical damage. If any, by highly indirect means. It is based on universal opportunities to make faulty decisions, to adopt the non-cooperative attitude, and to induce others to follow suit. This is when you start thinking it from a business perspective, when you start talking to the leadership perspective. Making a faulty decision may be simply a matter of placing tools in one spot instead of another. A non-cooperative attitude may involve nothing more than creating an unpleasant situation

• 11:40Jocko Willink?

  among one's fellow workers, engaging in bickerings, or displaying surliness and stupidity. Isn't that weird? Isn't that interesting? That we, that these things can cause such disruption, that the Office of Strategic Service is saying, hey, if you can create bickering within a team, they're gonna have problems. Remember in Trade Ed?

• 12:06JP Dinnell?

  What a weird correlation for what's going on with this nation right now.

• 12:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you think?

• 12:13JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 12:14Jocko Willink?

  Weird? Coincidental, could it be? Or could it be that we're getting fed social media that's actually creating?

• 12:22JP Dinnell?

  Creating hate and discontent, and just arguing, just because as we know, our egos get in the way, and we just can't let stuff go. Instead of people just ignoring it, imagine if we all just ignored it.

• 12:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 12:35JP Dinnell?

  How powerful that would be.

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and you know what? Listen to someone else's perspective and say, oh yeah, they think a little bit different than me. Okay.

• 12:43JP Dinnell?

  I, I was talking with somebody recently, and stole your line, gave you credit, though.

• 12:47Jocko Willink?

  You better give me credit.

• 12:48JP Dinnell?

  You better give me credit. When somebody says something that you don't agree with, or, you know, it was along the lines of, you know, I've never thought of it that way. And that's it.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 13:00JP Dinnell?

  Don't engage, don't argue, don't push anything else. He's like, hey, you know what? I've never thought of it that way. And you can have a respectful tone. You don't have to be like, I've never thought of it that way. Dumb, you know, like, hey, you know, I've never thought of it that way. Completely disarm them, completely disarm them. And if they keep pushing, be like, yeah, you know what? You're right. I've legitimately never thought of it that way. And man, I really, I appreciate your, appreciate your input.

• 13:23Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 13:23JP Dinnell?

  Let it be.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  Gosh. And by the way, the thing that you're so in disagreement with is probably not that big of a deal. It's probably not that big of a thing.

• 13:34JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's not something you should be fighting about. Okay, let me ask you this. When we were in trade at.

• 13:41JP Dinnell?

  Okay.

• 13:43Jocko Willink?

  How, how, how much of a strong sign was it that we as trade at was winning? When you'd see a platoon start fighting each other.

• 13:54JP Dinnell?

  It was beautiful.

• 13:55Jocko Willink?

  It was like the, this is, this is the exact example that they're talking about. When you have a platoon and the platoon chief and the lieutenant are yelling at each other, or the LPOs yelling at the guys and they're yelling back at him, or the whatever combination of chaos and, and bickering, that destroys a platoon. It destroys a platoon. And like you're saying, if someone can take the high ground and say, you know what? Actually, that, that's a good point. I didn't think of that. And deescalate that situation, that platoon can then get back together and move forward.

• 14:32JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 14:33Jocko Willink?

  Towards the target as opposed to attacking each other, which is insane. It was insane to watch that.

• 14:40JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Jocko Willink?

  And we get to see it, I would say 50% of the time. 50% of the time you'd have some kind of a small.

• 14:50Jocko Willink?

  Conflict in the platoon that escalated to the point where it started to detriment their performance.

• 14:58JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Jocko Willink?

  And we talked to him about it, you know, we talked to him about it, but the reason that they're having a problem is because their egos. And so when you talk to him about it, they'd be like, well, he just needs to talk to what I'm saying. He's not listening to me. Like, that's the response you get. Okay.

• 15:12JP Dinnell?

  Cool. The best was when they would turn around and ask them, well, you guys are cheating and like, all right, let's, let's have an actual conversation. Come on, man. Like, what do you think our intent is to cheat or to actually prepare you for war? Like, what do you think our biggest priority is? And when you could like, show people that just by asking them those simple questions, they'd be like,

• 15:36JP Dinnell?

  and they would realize, well, it'd take them some time, but man, it's crazy how emotionally connected and or not connected, but emotionally just sucked in and charged guys would get over. And then we would just, just poke that a little bit more, a little bit more, spin them up.

• 15:52Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yeah. What we were doing was we were following this manual for sabotage to see if we could get that platoon to freaking start. You know, going after each other. Cause this is the things you want to have happen in training. You don't, you want them to, to get through that.

• 16:07JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  And recognize it here. So when they're overseas, they can freaking get along and work shit out. All right.

• 16:17Jocko Willink?

  This type of activity, sometimes referred to as the human element, is frequently responsible for accidents, delays and general obstruction. Even, even under normal conditions, the potential saboteur should discover what types of faulty decisions and non-cooperation are normally found in this kind of work and then should devise his sabotage as to enlarge that margin for error. It's crazy.

• 16:44Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy. I was on Huberman's podcast and I said, hey, if I had a, if I had a team of 10 people and you had a 10 team of 10 people and my team all hated each other and your team all loved each other and got along great, who's gonna win? He's like, yeah, absolutely. My team would still be arguing about what the mission was, about who we're gonna take, about who's gonna do what job. And JP's like, yo, I wanna lead this assault. And Echo's like, no, I should be leading this assault. And you two are fighting. And then finally, I'm like, okay, Echo's gonna lead it. And then JP spends the rest of the time undermining Echo's plan.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  That happens, man. It's insane.

• 17:17Jocko Willink?

  Possible effects. Acts of sabotage are occurring throughout Europe. An effort should be made to add to their efficiency, lessen their detectability, increase their number. Acts of simple sabotage multiplied by thousands of citizen saboteurs can be an effective weapon against any enemy. Slashing tires, draining fuel tanks, starting fires, starting arguments, acting stupidly, short-circuiting electrical systems. Abrading machine parts will waste materials, manpower, and time. Occurring on a wide scale, simple sabotage will be a constant and tangible drag on the war effort of the enemy. And again, why am I saying this? Why does this matter? Is anyone that's listening to this podcast right now thinking about how they're gonna slash tires and drain fuel tanks? No.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  No. But do you think that there's draining fuel somewhere in your life? Yeah, the energy. Do you think that there's energy leaking out, right? Do you think there's some short circuits going on in your life somewhere? Do you think there's some stupid acting somewhere in your life?

• 18:18Jocko Willink?

  And it's little, but then you multiply that across time and you got problems.

• 18:25Jocko Willink?

  Simple sabotage may have also have secondary results of more or less value. Widespread practice of simple sabotage will harass and demoralize enemy administrators and police. Further success may embolden the citizen saboteurs eventually to find colleagues who can assist him in sabotage or of greater dimension. Finally, the very practice of simple sabotage by natives in enemy occupied territory may make these individuals identify themselves actively with the United Nations war effort and encourage them to assist openly in periods of allied invasion and occupation. So everything compounds. And these little problems that you have, they get worse. This is what happens when you...

• 19:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, you're late for work and the your boss like is a little bit negative with you because you were late. And then you're a little bit negative back, but you're also you were a little bit late. So now you're trying to catch up and now you make a little mistake. And now your boss is on you that cause that mistake and he gives you a bad evaluation. You can see where these things go wrong. In life. From little tiny acts of sabotage. Which were perpetrated by you, by the way. That's the worst part of it. You know, people, they know the whole thing about, we've talked about self sabotage, right? And they make self sabotage into this thing where like, you know. I really thought I was gonna be a rock star.

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, I could, I was gonna be a rock star, but I just self sabotaged. You know, I just, I just, you know, every time I was about to get that record deal. I'd, I'd go get drunk and just, you know, wouldn't show up to the, people say that kind of stuff. And I'm sure it happens, you know, I'm sure there's people that are like that. But to me, self sabotage is not like, oh, I didn't wanna be so successful. So I said. Self sabotage is like, oh, I cut a corner. I didn't control my emotions. I let my ego get in the way. Those are all yourself. But it's almost like an unintentional self.

• 20:30JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. What do you think causes people to keep going down that path though? Because we all make those mistakes, like you said, and then there are people that just will legitimately start.

• 20:39Jocko Willink?

  Now, there's a difference between self sabotage and playing the victim card. The victim card is easy to play because you don't have to have any responsibility or accountability. You blame everybody else and then. We all have enough people in our lives that actually support playing the victim card, but like, oh, you know, and then they comfort you and it's not your fault. You're like, yeah, you know, so. But then when it comes to self sabotage, I mean, I mean, I've talked about this before on this podcast and at the muster and everything else like that. I mean.

• 21:06JP Dinnell?

  Like I ruined my marriage with Amanda. I did 100%.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  Temporarily.

• 21:12JP Dinnell?

  Yes, I was gonna get there. Yes, 100%. Yeah, actually, I'm glad you said that because I think one podcast, we talked about how Amanda and I were divorced and we never brought it back full circle to her back together.

• 21:24Jocko Willink?

  Sorry, Amanda.

• 21:24JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. No, I mean, a year later, by the grace of God, we had a second chance. You know, we made, we went to church and I've, I've shared that story before, like literally the pastor was talking about letting go of anger and resentment in your heart. And I'm like, okay, I'm listening to God and you know, we, we went to a small group of the church and we got into counseling and you know, more importantly, all that stuff was great, but we both decided to make the effort. We both, we both had to be all in. We both took ownership over things in our life. And that's, you know, I've told you this, like, that's what I read Extreme Ownership before I was a part of this team during this time. I read Extreme Ownership and I was like,

• 22:03JP Dinnell?

  oh yeah, knucklehead. But I'm just wondering, like the whole sabotage thing, like what causes people to keep going down that path? Or making it worse and worse?

• 22:13Jocko Willink?

  In my opinion, it's because they actually don't want bad enough to have that thing, whatever that thing.

• 22:22JP Dinnell?

  I agree.

• 22:23Jocko Willink?

  So like you just said, you said you and Amanda, you both decided you actually wanted to be married and have a life together.

• 22:30JP Dinnell?

  Yes, 100%.

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  If you don't do that, then everything else is just a way to split it apart.

• 22:36JP Dinnell?

  Because everything, everything great in life is hard. Going through BUDs is hard, but you know what? There's greatness with having that trident pinned on your chest. And you know, and, and this isn't just about the SEAL teams. I mean, we've worked with every branch of the military and they all have outstanding soldiers and Marines and airmen and great selection processes that they all get a lot of benefit from going through that stuff, you know? And, and so I, but like marriage, marriage is hard, but you can make it easy if you decide it's what you want to do. Because when you decide that it's what you want to do, then those little things, it's like, okay, yeah, that's actually not that big of a deal. You can make it hard or you can make it easy. And it's, it's like, I think we're aligning with what you just said. It's, it's a, it's a mindset thing of like, hey, do you really want it?

• 23:21JP Dinnell?

  If you do, you'll work through it. If you don't, then you'll just keep making mistakes because making mistakes is easy. You don't have to think.

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm in the process of preparing a podcast about why America has lost wars. We're on a losing streak. And one of the reasons, I got a bunch of reasons, one of the reasons

• 23:48Jocko Willink?

  that we lose wars is we lose wars that we didn't have to win.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  We've never lost a war that we had to win, but the minute we get in a war that we don't have to win,

• 24:03Jocko Willink?

  it's not important enough and we do this to ourselves. Look, when you have to win a war, if we, if, if we have to win a war. We will win that. Do we say, hey, you know what? After one year, the soldiers can go home. No, we don't say that. We say you'll fight until we win. That's World War Two. Do we say, hey, you know what? We're not sure, uh, how many troops we're going to deploy. No, we're going to deploy all of them. Oh, we don't know if a draft is the proper thing to do. No, we're going to draft everyone. If you're, if you're between the ages of 18 and 50 year old male, you're going to go fight. That's, that's when we, one of the reasons that we lose wars is because we lose wars that we don't have to win. Look, there's a chance we can win.

• 24:46Jocko Willink?

  Like we can go into the first Iraq war, we build up and we go, cool. And we play that first quarter and we're up by freaking 40 points. And we're like, cool. And we, the other team just says, we're not even coming back out. We go, see, we won. Cool. High five. We can do, we do that. But we get into wars that we don't have to win. And that is one of the reasons why we lose. So just like you're saying in life, if you expect someone to be able to put forth the effort and make the small sacrifices on a daily basis and the large sacrifice on a daily basis in order to get somewhere where they want to be. There's if they don't really want to be there, they won't be. I mean, you just talked about SEAL training.

• 25:31JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 25:32Jocko Willink?

  Why do you guys quit SEAL training?

• 25:33JP Dinnell?

  Cause they don't want to be there anymore.

• 25:34Jocko Willink?

  And why do you guys not quit?

• 25:36JP Dinnell?

  Because that's all they want.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 25:37JP Dinnell?

  It's just not an option for them.

• 25:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 25:39JP Dinnell?

  And they don't allow that complacency to creep into their lives. And it's like, like the premise of what you're just talking about, we, we lose wars that we didn't need to fight. That's because we get complacent and we start getting lazy and we just make stupid mistakes or and or things aren't a priority anymore. And, you know, which it, I mean, from there we can go down how many rabbit holes?

• 25:57Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 25:58JP Dinnell?

  And it's the same thing in marriage, same relationship with your kids, parents, like training jujitsu, all, all aspects of your life.

• 26:04Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yeah. And really that's as I started working on this, these various reasons why we lose wars. They all stem from that. Here's another thing and I'll just, when we have to win, guess what we do with generals that aren't good?

• 26:22JP Dinnell?

  Get rid of them.

• 26:23Jocko Willink?

  We fire them.

• 26:23JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 26:24Jocko Willink?

  We fire them. We just go, oh yeah, you, you, you lost that battle, you're fired. That doesn't happen. If we don't have to win, it's like playing in a football game, Echo Charles. If you're playing in a football game that you don't have to win, are you going to put your star player in there?

• 26:40Jocko Willink?

  Well, you might, but you might save him. I mean, that happens, right? With the pre preseason games, right? They're not putting the, the big stud in there. Maybe he'll play half the game. Am I right?

• 26:50JP Dinnell?

  Yep, you are right.

• 26:51Jocko Willink?

  So what if, what if it's the state finals? What if it's the state finals? He's playing. He's playing.

• 27:00JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 27:00Jocko Willink?

  Pete just showed me this kid, lacrosse kid. Did you see this? They taped this kid, they taped like a band, you know, the band, like the stretchy bands for working out?

• 27:10JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 27:10Jocko Willink?

  The guy tore, the kid tore his hamstring. So they taped, they taped this band.

• 27:17JP Dinnell?

  It's incredible.

• 27:18Jocko Willink?

  To like the top of his thigh and to the top of his calf. So he had an artificial external hamstring.

• 27:25Jocko Willink?

  To function.

• 27:26JP Dinnell?

  Because he was needed to win.

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  Because he needed to win his state championships. Or maybe it was the collegiate finals. But he had to win. There was no, there was nothing else.

• 27:35JP Dinnell?

  I, I love that mindset and just the mindset of that kid as well of just being like, yep, let's go.

• 27:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. That kid in that game had to win. So if you're entering into wars, you're going to make all kinds of decisions that are a little bit off. Little bit off. Hey, I've done that. Like, oh, we're in tasking a bruiser. We're in a training mission. And one of my junior officers does something stupid. Do I say like, hey, stop you, I'm going to take over? No, let them keep going. Do something stupid in the field, like on a mission? Like, hey, get in the Humvee, I got that. Like, you're not, you're not playing around. So that's when you ask these questions, when you ask that question about like, what causes a person to not do the right things?

• 28:27Jocko Willink?

  Cause they don't have to win. And when you don't have to win, you make the easy, make little, cut little corners.

• 28:32JP Dinnell?

  I mean, how many times do we see this with our clients? The businesses we work with.

• 28:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:37JP Dinnell?

  Like, and they just get complacent, they get comfortable and they start making all those mistakes because the, they have allowed the disease of victory to creep in as well.

• 28:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  you need almost an existential threat, a threat to your very existence. That happens with companies.

• 28:55JP Dinnell?

  Yep.

• 28:55Jocko Willink?

  Companies are, they're hiring a bunch of people, they got a bunch of overhead, everything's going good. Maybe they're, oh, like they take a little, they take a little hit, maybe they make as much money, but it's okay. As soon as that, things go upside down and they're losing money. All of a sudden you'll see them making real decisions. Like, hey, we're firing these number of people, we're cutting this division away. Like, this is what we're doing.

• 29:16JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Jocko Willink?

  They didn't do it when there wasn't an existential, when there wasn't a threat to their existence. So these are important things to think about. Because you, you get in this habit of allowing sabotage to happen in your team, in your business, in your life.

• 29:34Jocko Willink?

  And it sneaks up on you.

• 29:39Jocko Willink?

  Section here, motivating the saboteur. To incite the citizen to the active practice of simple sabotage and to keep him practicing that sabotage over sustained periods is a special problem. Simple sabotage is often an act which the citizen performs according to his own initiative and inclination. Acts of destruction do not bring him any personal gain and may completely and may be completely foreign to his habitual conservative attitude toward materials and tools. Purposeful stupidity is contrary to human nature. He frequently needs pressure, stimulation, or assurance and information and suggestions regarding reasonable and feasible methods of simple sabotage.

• 30:24Jocko Willink?

  So what he's saying, you're, you're asking someone, you know, in, let's say occupied France to go out and, and conduct sabotage. What do they have to gain from it? Well, they can get caught by the Nazis, they can get killed, right? There's, there's all those things. Now you should be conducting sabotage where it's hard to catch you, but that's what they're up against. So how do you motivate them? It says here, personal motives. The ordinary citizen very probably has no immediate personal motive for committing simple sabotage. Instead, he must be made to anticipate indirect personal gain, such as might come with the enemy evacuation or destruction of the ruling government group. Gain should be stated as specifically as possible for the area addressed.

• 31:06Jocko Willink?

  So what they're saying is you gotta say, listen, hey, French Resistance fighter, when we get the Nazis out of there, you're gonna be elevated into a heroic position, you're gonna be elevated into the new government position, like you're gonna be given rewards. You need to let them know that. This was interesting. Abstract verbalizations about personal liberty, freedom of the press and so on will not be convincing in most parts of the world. In many areas, they will not even be comprehensible. That's pretty interesting. That you can be saying, don't you want freedom? And there are some people in the world that are like, no, dude, I want just to like be left alone with my family. I just want to grow my crops or whatever. It's the only thing they know. Yeah. Yep.

• 31:51Jocko Willink?

  So think about these things when, and I wrote about this in Leadership Strategy and Tactics, I called it the threat of why? People got to understand how it impact, how it's going to help you JP. So when I'm saying to JP, hey JP, if you could sell more of these widgets, you could make more of these widgets every day. That'd be great. And JP's like, well, I'm making 20 a day. I'm getting my paycheck. How am I benefit by working extra hard and making 25? What do I get from that? Still, I worked this, do I work the same amount of hours, but I worked harder the whole time? I didn't take extra breaks. I was a little bit stressed. Well, how does that, I don't care. What if I say, hey JP? If you can make these things, if you can make 25 a day? We're going to be able to sell them for a little bit cheaper. If we can sell them for a little bit cheaper, we're going to sell more of them.

• 32:35Jocko Willink?

  If we sell more of them, we're going to need more people to work here. If we need more people to work here, guess who's going to be in charge of them? You. Guess what that means? More money and you won't be on that line anymore. You'll be in charge of it. And all of a sudden I show you the opportunity that you might have. I can't motivate you by saying, hey JP, if you can really make some extra widgets every day? Our shareholders are going to get a bigger dividend. Oh, I can't wait. Right? That doesn't mean you don't care about that. Why would you? So make sure that you're motivating people with things that actually make sense to them and have a real impact with them.

• 33:10Jocko Willink?

  Going on, since the effect of his own acts is limited, the saboteur may become discouraged unless he feels that he is a member of a large, though unseen group of saboteurs operating against the enemy or the government of his own country and elsewhere. So it's very important that you make people recognize and, and feel that they are part of a larger group that is moving in the same direction. You can't just feel like you're out there doing this by yourself. And how do you do that? And it goes into how I do it here, but you basically do that by propagating the story, by explaining how that was helpful. By bringing that team together and letting the team know, hey JP, you might be working alone,

• 33:54Jocko Willink?

  you know, on this line today, but the night shift last night, they did 27. And the morning shift, they did, they only did 19. But that morning shift that did 27, they're getting a little bonus. What do you mean bonus? Yeah, because they're helping everyone out. Okay. And all of a sudden, you recognize your part of something bigger.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  And then it says, and I like this, more important than those two reasons here, it says, would be to create a situation in which the citizen saboteur acquires a sense of responsibility. And begins to educate others in simple sabotage. So when you make people feel responsible for what's happening in their country. And what's happening in their neighborhood and what's happening in their family. That's the most powerful of these motivations that you can give somebody.

• 34:47Jocko Willink?

  It goes on here to talk about encouraging destructiveness. Which some people kind of have in their soul. They want to destroy things, but some people don't. It says, it should be pointed out that to the saboteur, where the circumstances are suitable, that he is acting in self-defense against the enemy or retaliating against the enemy for acts of destruction. A reasonable amount of humor. In the presentation of suggestions for simple sabotage will relax tensions of fear. Humor is a tool, use it.

• 35:20Jocko Willink?

  The saboteur might have to reverse his thinking and he should be told in so many words, where he formerly thought of keeping his tools sharp, he would now let them go dull. Surfaces that were formerly lubricated should now be sanded. Normally diligent, he should now be lazy and careless and so on. Starting to get the feeling Echo's been sabotaged me this whole time.

• 35:42Jocko Willink?

  Once he is encouraged to think backwards about himself and the objects of his everyday life, the saboteur will see many opportunities in his immediate environment, which cannot possibly be seen from a distance. A state of mind should be encouraged that anything can be sabotaged. Now, what is amazing about this? This is a very bold form of decentralized command. Literally saying, "Hey, I can't tell JP what to do on the front lines. I can't tell him how to best sabotage the machine shop that he works in. He's got to figure out the best way to do it. He's got to look

• 36:22Jocko Willink?

  for it." Which, the opposite of that is equally true. I can't figure out the way for JP to be most efficient. He's got to be the one that's given the authority and the autonomy and the freedom to think about the best way to do it. Present me with a plan. "Hey, boss, I'm making this widget every day and you've got me carrying every five-pack. You've got me carrying them across the whole platform here, across the whole factory. Takes me like a minute and a half to get over there, a minute and a half to get back. If I stacked them all up here, by the end of the day, someone could just come and grab them. Make one trip. I'll save three minutes every 15 minutes."

• 37:02Jocko Willink?

  Wow, thank you. So, yes, decentralized sabotage is a good thing if you're in that mode of war. But in your business, are you giving decentralized control and inspirado to become more efficient? Because if you're not doing that, if you're not encouraging that, if I'm just like, "Hey JP, here's your job, do it." And you say, "Hey, I thought of it. Hey, listen, just do your job." "Hey, it might be a little..." "No, just do your job." If that's what I'm doing, not helping.

• 37:39Jocko Willink?

  Among the potential citizen saboteurs who are to engage in physical destruction, two extreme types may be distinguished. On the one hand, there is a man who is not technically trained and employed. This man needs specific suggestions as to what he can and should destroy, as well as the details regarding the tools by means of which destruction is accomplished. The other extreme is a man who's a technician, such as a lathe operator, an automobile mechanic. Presumably, this man would be able to devise methods of simple sabotage, which would be appropriate to his own facilities. However, this man needs to be stimulated to reorient his thinking in the direction of destruction. Specific examples which need not be from his own field should accomplish this.

• 38:21Jocko Willink?

  Again, it's very important to realize that people, we all get trained. We get trained into a way of thinking. And if JP, if I take over a factory, and the last boss that worked there was a tyrant who told everyone, "Shut up and do what I told you to do", when I take over, and I see that we could be more efficient, but I'm not quite sure how, I'm gonna have to retrain JP's brain. Because JP, he offered a suggestion six years ago, got yelled at. He hasn't, he offered one, three weeks after that, got yelled at again. He hasn't said a word since. He's got his paycheck, and he's gotten out of there. He might have even looked for another job. So you've got to retrain people's brains

• 39:06Jocko Willink?

  so that they're thinking a different way. Extremely important.

• 39:14Jocko Willink?

  Various media can be used to disseminate suggestions. Good, it goes through that. It talks about safety measures. The amount of activity carried on by the saboteur shall be governed not only by the number of opportunities he sees, but also by the amount of danger he feels. Bad news travels fast. Simple sabotage will be discouraged. Too many simple saboteurs are arrested. Good point. And guess what they do to saboteurs? They execute them publicly. That's why. That's the propaganda that comes back. So when you're in a leadership position, and somebody offers a suggestion, and you execute them by yelling at them or whatever, you're encouraging or ensuring that no one else does that. Whereas when JP says, "Hey, I think this would be faster if we go this way", and I lift up JP, and I give him an award,

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  or I reward him some way. All of a sudden, other people go, oh, this is a positive thing. We should be making suggestions. We should be see how we can be more efficient.

• 40:10Jocko Willink?

  Same leadership principles apply.

• 40:13JP Dinnell?

  I mean, it's the same thing that you do when you're training an animal.

• 40:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 40:17JP Dinnell?

  Like a horse or a dog. I mean, you give them rewards. And if they make a mistake, obviously, there should be punishment. But what's unique about that is the punishment should be at the most, like the least amount possible. And then you escalate from there as needed to where you hit that threshold to correct it. And then you bring it back down when they make the correction and you reward them. And it's just, it's the same thing with how we treat our people. The same thing with how you treat your kids. And, you know, and, you know, as you're saying all these things, I write down a bunch of things, but I know we talk about this often is

• 40:54JP Dinnell?

  teacher, teach your people how to think, not what to think. And you're asking these people to go out there and do all these

• 41:01JP Dinnell?

  acts of sabotage. You gotta teach them how to think. And, you know, it's the same thing when you're training up your people in your organization, like your goal as a leader, as we all know, is to replace yourself. And unfortunately, society has been conditioned to think the opposite of like, well, if I have somebody that can do my job, I'm gonna lose my job.

• 41:19Jocko Willink?

  They're a threat.

• 41:20JP Dinnell?

  They're a threat to me. That's a form of sabotage, you know, that people do because they start disseminating those little lies within themselves of like, well, if Echo can do my job, I mean, I mean, well, then Echo's probably gonna take my job. And it's just, it's, it's sad to see how people have been conditioned that way, just from all aspects of their life.

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  And as a leader, you gotta be aware of that.

• 41:42JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 41:43Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be aware that JP's not lazy or unmotivated. He's just been trained not to give input. He's been trained to keep his mouth shut.

• 41:53JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Jocko Willink?

  And some bosses want that. They're losers. They're losers. A good boss wants the team to give feedback and explanations and advice and suggestions. Ain't it weird? Sometimes you gotta put a suggestion box up, right?

• 42:11JP Dinnell?

  And what's crazy is like, the only time it works is if it's anonymous.

• 42:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like anonymous suggestion box. That's, that's like a, a training wheel to try and get people back to like, please talk to us and tell us what's going on.

• 42:28Jocko Willink?

  Check, uh, use materials which appear to be innocent. A knife or nail file can be carried normally on your person. Either as multi-purpose instrument for creating damage, matches, pebbles, hair, salt, nails, dozens of other destructive agents. Can be carried or kept in your living quarters without even exciting any suspicion whatsoever.

• 42:48Jocko Willink?

  If you're a worker in trade industry, you can easily carry such things as wrenches, hammers, emery paper and the like. So there you go. This is important in trying to, trying to commit acts for which large numbers of people could be responsible. For instance, if you blow out the wiring in the factory at a central firebox, almost anyone could have done it.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  Good stuff.

• 43:13Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. The citizen saboteur cannot be closely controlled. Nor is it reasonable to expect that simple sabotage can be precisely concentrated on specific types of target according to the requirements of a concrete military situation. So again, this is decentralized command. Things are gonna get a little bit loose. Hey, with decentralized command, there's risk. There's risk with decentralized command. There are gonna be times where things, you know, JP does something that wasn't good. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. There's gonna be a time when JP, I let him do this, I let him do this, I let him do this, I let him do this.

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  Good, good, good, good, good. I let him do this and all of a sudden something else happens. That if you're, if you're using decentralized command, there are going to be times where you're like, huh, okay, I gotta, I gotta go, gotta do some damage control here. Like, oh, a little bit much? Okay. Like, that's gonna happen, and that's okay. Matter of fact, I just had this conversation with somebody at Estrel Front. They were like, oh, I'm sorry that I didn't let you know. And I was like, hey, you don't have to be sorry that you didn't let me know. If I had everyone letting me know everything that they were doing all day long, and they were waiting for my approval, no one would be doing anything.

• 44:37JP Dinnell?

  That stresses me out.

• 44:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no one would be doing anything. It's no factor. It's literally no factor. I'm happy that you did this. So it's like, no factor. That's why we have CCIRs, by the way. That's why we have critical, Commander's Critical Information Reports. So if you do something that is really bad, you will know, oh, JP had a client that, uh, wants their money back. Yep, he's gonna call me immediately.

• 45:09JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 45:11Jocko Willink?

  It's never happened, but if it ever happened, he'd be like, hey, Jocko, this client wants their money back. I'd be like, okay, what happened? But you see what I'm saying?

• 45:18JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna reverse engineer this one.

• 45:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what's gonna ever happens again. But when you, there is risk associated with decentralized command. But the risk of centralized command is infinitely worse, because now, instead of me having 10 things happen, one of them is a little bit outside the box. Instead, I have one thing happen. And it was inside the box, and nine things don't happen.

• 45:45JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 45:45Jocko Willink?

  And you lose.

• 45:48Jocko Willink?

  So keep that in mind.

• 45:54Jocko Willink?

  The saboteur should be ingenious in using his everyday equipment. We kind of got through that. The saboteur should never attack targets behind his, beyond his capacity, or the capacity of his instruments. Cool, fair enough. The saboteur should be encouraged to attack transportation, and it goes into this whole thing. So part of this manual is actually like the technical piece of this, like the technical part of how to...

• 46:18Jocko Willink?

  How to conduct actual physical sabotage. We're not going to go into a bunch of that. You know, it's got about, it's got about buildings. It's got about warehouses, barracks, offices, hotels, factories, how you can do it. You can do it with fires. You can do it with floods.

• 46:31JP Dinnell?

  Train tracks.

• 46:32Jocko Willink?

  Train tracks. That's transportation. In the floods thing, um, saturate a sponge with a thick starch or sugar solution, squeeze it tightly into a ball, wrap it with its string, and let it dry. Remove the string when it's fully dried. The sponge will be in the form of a tight, hard ball. Flush down a toilet or otherwise introduce into a sewer line. The sponge will gradually expand to its normal size and plug the sewage system.

• 46:59JP Dinnell?

  Gradually over time, you're gone. It's a day or two, no connection back to you. You know, I got my truck, um, I, I, you know, I, an F two fifty, so it's a diesel turbo diesel. Everything was great. I was driving it back, um, from St. Louis where I got it and it was awesome. And then I get gas. Everything's good to go. I get gas one more time at a gas station I thought was going to be good because there's a, it's just a large gas station, bunch of pumps. Well, what's awesome about this gas station is a bunch of pumps for like regular vehicles. There's not a lot of diesel vehicles that go through there. So I had, I got a, now thank God, it was only half a tank. So I was, I don't like my

• 47:42JP Dinnell?

  vehicles getting below half a tank. Well, that SOP for me saved me because when I filled up the half a tank, it was, uh, bad diesel fuel, which caused problems, but it wasn't initial. It wasn't right away. So I'm driving it, no issue. The next day, can't, I can't start my brand new vehicle and I am, can't figure it out. Called this guy that came to, remember, uh, remember that couple that came to FTX zero zero one? Guy was a diesel mechanic. They lived in Texas. Oh, yeah. Him and his wife came to the, dude, the guy had like grizzly bear paw hands, you know, awesome guy. So I like text him. He's a diesel mechanic. I'm like, hey, what's going on? He's like, well, first problem is you got to afford. I'm like, okay, yeah, cool. Thanks. Uh, however, you know, he's a, he's a, he's a Dodge guy.

• 48:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 48:26JP Dinnell?

  And so he's giving me a hard time and, uh, we're going through everything. And then he's like, hey, man, you got bad, you got bad fuel. And it was just like a so the only reason why I'm sharing the story is it's a simple thing of like, I didn't realize it right away. It wasn't drastic enough. And I had to, I tried to drain it and then I had to put a crap ton of fuel additives and water separation things in there and just literally just drive it. Once it actually started, I had to keep it running and try to burn as much fuel, put clean fuel in there, put more out. I mean, it was a nightmare, but, and that was one simple thing of it had like bad diesel fuel that had some water in it.

• 49:02Jocko Willink?

  And imagine if that was your tank and you were rolling into combat with 50 other tanks that had been all fueled with the same fuel that someone had pissed in.

• 49:11JP Dinnell?

  Yep. Yeah.

• 49:13Jocko Willink?

  That's the kind of thing that this is disaster.

• 49:18Jocko Willink?

  Uh, it goes into all this kind of stuff, paper jams. Here's one, jam paper, bits of wood, hairpins, and anything else that will fit into locks of all unguarded entrances to public buildings. This is just horrible, man. That talks about tools, how you could just like let your, let your tools all be dull, let your saws be twisted, clean files by knocking them against the vice or of, or the workplace, they're easily broken, bits and drills will snap under heavy pressure. Everything is like this. It's just talking about how you can just ruin everything. Oil lubrication, oil and lubrication systems are not only vulnerable, but you're also easy to sabotage. Boom. There you go. Put metal dust or filings, fine sand, ground glass, emery dust,

• 50:02Jocko Willink?

  and similar hard gritty substances directly into lubrication systems.

• 50:08Jocko Willink?

  Freaking terrible. Using, and, and again, the, the comparison to life is, these are all little tiny, barely noticeable things that destroy and wear you down over time and break you eventually. You've ruined, you're ruined because of little tiny things. Uh, use a thin oil or heavy oils prescribed. Cooling systems talks about how to freaking cause problems with them. Here's the one I was that you almost dealt with water, urine, wine, or any simple liquid you can get reasonably large quantities. Will dilute gasoline fuel to a point where it's no longer combustible.

• 50:52Jocko Willink?

  Here's a little pro for Elon Musk, electric motors, electric motors. Are more restricted than the targets so far discussed, they cannot be sabotaged as easily or without risk of injury. By unskilled persons who may otherwise have good opportunities for destruction. Electric motors are a little hard to mess with.

• 51:09JP Dinnell?

  See, I mean, I believe that, but in my mind, I feel like I could cause a good amount of damage to an electric motor. Yeah, without like, but but of with equal effort.

• 51:20Jocko Willink?

  How?

• 51:21JP Dinnell?

  In my mind.

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  What would you do?

• 51:22JP Dinnell?

  That's my ego talking right now, but initially I'm telling you right now, I'm just thinking like to me, like an electric.

• 51:29JP Dinnell?

  I mean, like even the new vehicles that we have, you're driving computers. Any one little thing like any one little chip or fuse, it can literally shut down your whole vehicle. I have my grandfather's old eighty three Ford.

• 51:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:41JP Dinnell?

  You know, and it's like that thing was sitting for years in my grandparents barn. Two years ago, my grandmother hurt herself on the property and was like, hey. I gotta, I'm selling the property, I gotta move. I flew out there literally the very next morning to start unloading stuff from the property. And you know, I had that truck there that I had bought from her when my grandfather passed away. And her old Volkswagen that Amanda bought from her. And so I haven't got those things shipped out of there and I I had to get them started. They had been sitting for years and years and years. And all I had to do is go get a fuel separator to separate the water from the from the gas, get some new gas.

• 52:20JP Dinnell?

  Change out a filter, get some a carb cleaner and just basically put a whole thing of carb cleaner in there and be like cranking it. And I was able to get that truck started and it'd been sitting forever. And I just feel like. An electric engine or motor or vehicle like you just start literally just. Just start pulling wires. Now I get what he's saying though, like if you're not trained, it can cause injury to yourself, but. I don't know. Again, this is my ego talking. I just, I kinda wanna set up a comparison.

• 52:48Jocko Willink?

  I went to, I went to a school for stealing cars and.

• 52:53JP Dinnell?

  Hell yeah. Think about, just think about what he just said. The steal team sent him. He was paid per diem to go learn how to steal cars.

• 53:00Jocko Willink?

  And one thing that we learned real quick is the modern cars are a lot harder to steal. You kinda have to be a little bit of a specialist and you probably have to have some special tools if you're gonna, and today this is even truer.

• 53:13JP Dinnell?

  I was gonna say, when was this schooling like?

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  This school is like in the mid nineties and so you need like cars like that nineteen eighty-five. Like nineteen eighty-five, you can walk up and you can get that thing started. Like, like you can make it happen. Some of them are so easy, it's crazy. You can basically, some of them, you basically would take a screwdriver, a flathead screwdriver, hammer it into the ignition and just crank it really hard. It would turn like the key. Like that was the, the key was the actual, the little mechanism of the key was the thing that was stopping it from starting. You know, so all you had to do is get that thing to turn. Uh, those, those wheel, like they had, they had wheel locks. And all you had to do was just crank that and it would break off. So it was really easy to steal and those older cars.

• 53:56Jocko Willink?

  But as soon as you get, like I said, into the nineties, like you're talking about the cars with whatever kinda computer chips they have in them. They have little shutdown systems. It's, it's way harder to steal them.

• 54:05JP Dinnell?

  You can't, so I could start, so Amanda has an expedition and uh, we learned this, she dropped, uh, we learned this firsthand. She dropped me off at the airport. I drove, you know, so I drove our, our family there. I get out.

• 54:18Jocko Willink?

  Keys.

• 54:19JP Dinnell?

  Key is in my pocket, but vehicle's still running. So I mean, they can, it can stay running without it. Uh, I get out and um, I'm walking and I get a missed call. I have a missed call and I didn't recognize it. And I get another one. I'm like, hey, and she's like, hey, uh, I need the key. I'm like, I tap my, I'm like, dang it. And so she couldn't drive it though. Without that key in the vehicle, it will not drive. So I have a buddy that, you know, he has a, he has a dog that he brings everywhere with them. And that's what he does. He leaves the car running with his dog in there, locks it, keeps a key fob with them. Even if you broke in, you physically cannot drive that vehicle without the key fob in there.

• 55:01Jocko Willink?

  I think Teslas have a pet mode.

• 55:03JP Dinnell?

  They do have a pet mode.

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  Keeps it cool in there.

• 55:06JP Dinnell?

  They do.

• 55:07Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty cool.

• 55:08JP Dinnell?

  Kinda cool.

• 55:10Jocko Willink?

  Teslas. One just broke the record on the Nuremberg track for uh for the Nuremberg ring for um what is it? Fastest production car.

• 55:22JP Dinnell?

  It's insane.

• 55:23Jocko Willink?

  Yep. You been in one? A fast one?

• 55:26JP Dinnell?

  Um, yeah, we had a client back, uh, was working with them in December of two thousand eighteen. Um, and um, yeah, he had one back and that was like the new fast one back then.

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:39JP Dinnell?

  He took us and I was like, oh, okay.

• 55:40Jocko Willink?

  It's one point, one point nine, zero sixty now for the plaid.

• 55:45JP Dinnell?

  That's insane.

• 55:46Jocko Willink?

  One point nine. I, my, one of my friends had a uh Audi R eight.

• 55:52JP Dinnell?

  Those are sick. I have a buddy that has one of those.

• 55:54Jocko Willink?

  It had the ten cylinder. It was the, it was the good one. And we were like at a stoplight in a

• 56:02Jocko Willink?

  in an, you know, a city area. And he floored it like when the thing turned green and I was laughing pretty hard.

• 56:11JP Dinnell?

  It's awesome when you're like, stop, yeah.

• 56:12Jocko Willink?

  But so that thing probably did zero sixty in three.

• 56:16JP Dinnell?

  One point nine.

• 56:17Jocko Willink?

  One point nine. And apparently it can beat that. Apparently they say, hey, it's one point nine, but it can actually do less than that.

• 56:24JP Dinnell?

  And they're just now that someone's gonna legitimately kill themselves if they can go that fast.

• 56:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, but don't worry, JP can sabotage it.

• 56:37JP Dinnell?

  My ego was talking, but it's like that initial like, wait, what?

• 56:41Jocko Willink?

  It goes on like it goes on. Like I said, it talks about transformers. It talks about turbines. It talks about metals. Um, production of mining. It just goes into everything. And again, this is real tactical stuff. How to, how to disturb agricultural production? What you were talking about railways, what you, what you can do there. I kind of thought this was funny. Railways, travel. Make train travels inconvenient as possible for enemy personnel. Make mistakes in issuing train tickets, leaving portions of the journey uncovered by the ticket book. Issue two tickets for the same seat in the train so that an interesting argument will result. Near train time, instead of issuing printed tickets, write them out slowly by hand, prolonging the process until the train is nearly ready to leave or has left the station.

• 57:26Jocko Willink?

  On station bulletin boards announcing train arrivals and departures, see that false and misleading information is given about trains bound for enemy destinations. In trains bound for enemy destinations, attendance should make life as uncomfortable as possible for passengers. See that the food is especially bad. Take up tickets after midnight. Call all station stops very loudly during the night. Handle baggage as noisily as possible during the night, and so on. See that the luggage of the economy personnel is mislaid or unloaded in the wrong station. Switch address labels on enemy baggage.

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  Engineers should see that the trains run slow or make unscheduled stops for plausible reasons. So there you go. Have you traveled a bunch? It seems like there's a lot of this happening. I feel like I'm living this. I had a unique travel story getting here, so who knows?

• 58:22JP Dinnell?

  This manual, who's this for? This manual?

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  So this manual is for agents of the OSS. So these are people that are what became the CIA. These people did espionage, they did undercover work. They also did, they also worked with the military as well. So they would, they would do forward operations, going into areas before the military arrived. Those kind of people, but this is for those people to train up the French Resistance.

• 58:50JP Dinnell?

  Gotcha.

• 58:51Jocko Willink?

  So that's those types, they're training those types of people. And actually, they were, they were mostly successful. They were, they were very successful in, in Asia. In, in, like when we had Ben Milligan on, By Water Beneath the Walls. Awesome book. Please get it.

• 59:08JP Dinnell?

  Incredible.

• 59:09Jocko Willink?

  Incredible.

• 59:09JP Dinnell?

  It's just insane.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  Insane book.

• 59:11JP Dinnell?

  It makes me want to go back through BUDs and go back into the teams again.

• 59:13Jocko Willink?

  Of course. It makes me want to go back, it makes me want to go back to 1940 and be part of the NCDUs and stay alive and just live, just go through every, just stay in for the past, whatever it is.

• 59:30Jocko Willink?

  How many years is that?

• 59:32JP Dinnell?

  What year was it?

• 59:33Jocko Willink?

  Nineteen forty? I mean, from the beginning.

• 59:35JP Dinnell?

  We're talking eighty-three years.

• 59:38Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy because SEAL Team One, they have the sixtieth anniversary this year.

• 59:43JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 59:44Jocko Willink?

  And when I got to SEAL Team One, I went to the thirtieth anniversary.

• 59:48JP Dinnell?

  It's insane. You know what's coming up in August?

• 59:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the fortieth anniversary.

• 59:55JP Dinnell?

  SEAL Team Three.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 59:57JP Dinnell?

  It's incredible. Yeah, that book, he won. It gave me a huge sense of pride in the SEAL Teams and being a part of the community. And whether you're in the SEAL Teams for four years or for forty years, it was just, he is so incredibly intelligent. And his ability to articulate and share those stories and bring honor to those men and honor to our community was just insane. To the point where, I mean, I turned forty in March and I'm thinking like, man, if I had to do it again, could I? And I was like, and I.

• 1:00:31Jocko Willink?

  You mean like tomorrow?

• 1:00:32JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Jack.

• 1:00:33JP Dinnell?

  Like now, going through BUDs tomorrow, that would be, um, yeah, that would be a struggle. But being in a platoon and deploying, like, you know, could I, if I had to get myself ready to go through it again, could I? The answer is absolutely yes. One hundred percent yes. Um, but you know, like, I think about when I was nineteen years old, going through BUDs, it was just, you know, completely different. I was a hundred and forty-five pounds and, you know, life was different. But that book was so just, it was, I mean, he did such a good job representing the SEAL Teams.

• 1:01:04Jocko Willink?

  And the research that he did.

• 1:01:06JP Dinnell?

  Actual research.

• 1:01:08Jocko Willink?

  So much good research and, you know, explaining, explaining where we came from. And I've had guys from Vietnam, the Vietnam era SEALs, read that book and they love it. Every SEAL loves that book.

• 1:01:22JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Jocko Willink?

  Because he brought information to light that we just didn't know. As a community, we didn't know.

• 1:01:29JP Dinnell?

  Which is crazy. It should be mandatory reading when you're going through training.

• 1:01:34Jocko Willink?

  It should be. Um, when I got to the team, there was nothing written down anywhere.

• 1:01:37JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  Nothing.

• 1:01:38JP Dinnell?

  Do you believe in mandatory reading?

• 1:01:41Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:01:42JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Jocko Willink?

  I do.

• 1:01:43JP Dinnell?

  I wish, I wish About Face would have been mandatory.

• 1:01:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've texted you that so many times. Done more of it. I didn't do it, you know, I didn't do it. I shouldn't, and you know what I should have done is I shouldn't have done mandatory reading. I should have done like optional book club.

• 1:01:55JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. I was just curious.

• 1:01:58Jocko Willink?

  Bro, I mean, you one hundred percent would have gone and so would everybody.

• 1:02:01JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Jocko Willink?

  Like if I would have said, hey, we're gonna have optional book club or hey, optional, you know, hey, we're gonna talk. We're gonna do some, some, uh, brief on history today.

• 1:02:10JP Dinnell?

  It's gonna make you a better warfighter.

• 1:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Exactly.

• 1:02:12JP Dinnell?

  Done.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 1:02:15JP Dinnell?

  Sorry.

• 1:02:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it's, I absolutely should have done that and I didn't and I apologize.

• 1:02:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I tried, like I would, you know what I was always, I was always more, I was always more, uh,

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  I was always more controlling over like the officers.

• 1:02:35JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Jocko Willink?

  You know, cause I, I felt like the E dogs, they, you know, they had work to do and they, I wanted to give them the space. You know what I mean?

• 1:02:43JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Jocko Willink?

  Like I didn't even make, I never made it in the list of guy come train jujitsu. But I made officers come train jujitsu and yeah.

• 1:02:51JP Dinnell?

  I, I've always wanted to actually ask you that question of like, hey, do you believe in mandatory this? Because it kind of goes against a lot of the stuff that we teach and that we live by. But I mean, as a forty year old man, uh, who has a family, who I have a seventeen year old son, you know, who we're trying to prepare to be a young man that contributes to society, to be an asset and not a liability. It's the same thing with our twin daughters is I look, you know, I think about and I, I've texted you this before and it was never like a, hey, you know, it was just us talking, you know, like we do. And I mean, from the standpoint of like now, looking back, man, I would have loved for you and Seth or anybody, anybody,

• 1:03:34JP Dinnell?

  anybody, you know, to have been like, hey, JP, you have to read this book and here's why. Cause I also know that if you would have mandated anything, there would have been a why behind it's like, okay, I'm, I'm good with that. And I think there's like things that, um, you know, if you can spin it in, in a different way of not saying mandatory, obviously, because that forces people to shut down and you know, you make it their idea, obviously they're gonna take ownership, they're gonna bring it on board more. I just, man, there's things like, man, if I was twenty two years old, if I would have read About Face when I was twenty two years old.

• 1:04:08JP Dinnell?

  Man, I think even if it would have kept me from doing one of the many stupid things I did when I was 22 or just, you know, just, and that's why I'm thankful that my parents had us in church and reading the Bible. That was a non-negotiable for our family is going to church. Because, you know, and, and they, but they didn't do it in a way that was like, hey, you're going to do this. It was a, hey, this is important and this is why. And my dad shared stories as to why it was important and my mom did as well. And that was like, I'm glad and so forth. Our family was like, I don't know, we're going to church. We're going to be praying. We're going to read the Bible. We're going to learn to have like some knowledge and a relationship with Jesus. And this is why, you know, and you don't, you let them want to do it.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  Two things. Number one, as we're sitting here talking about like, oh, like having reading, mandatory reading. Think about our schedule when we were in a task together. Yeah. Like seriously, like think about our schedule. Honestly, think about our schedule. Like there's, there is no holes in that schedule. And, you know, I, I just feel like it would have been hard. I should have done it though. I could have found holes. I could have found holes.

• 1:05:20JP Dinnell?

  There's holes when I was sitting at the bar drinking.

• 1:05:22Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:05:22JP Dinnell?

  That I could have been at home.

• 1:05:24Jocko Willink?

  I should have found holes. I should have found holes. Hey, also, man, like, you know, a lot of guys just aren't into reading at that age or at that time in their lives.

• 1:05:35JP Dinnell?

  And I agree. And I agree with what you're saying. The whole thing, you're thinking from, and with like all due respect, you're looking at it from the standpoint of like the amount of reading you do now.

• 1:05:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:46JP Dinnell?

  If you would have been like JP, 10 minutes of reading a day.

• 1:05:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I should have done it, man.

• 1:05:50JP Dinnell?

  Anybody, you know, I'm not saying you should have done. I'm just saying like, I look at it from a standpoint of like, there are some things as we get older, there is a, there is a, a, a good way that I think like, so that's what I'm trying to do as, as a parent is just like, you know, there are things that it's just like, hey, you're going to do. And one of it is with our kids is like, is reading now. Cause I realize how much better of a person that could have made me is like reading these different books when I was younger. And so I've always wanted to ask you that.

• 1:06:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, there's that. There's also the, I always kind of kick myself because I wasn't, I didn't give like great. I didn't spend time with guys on life. Like if you were in my platoon, we didn't talk about your life like, oh, here's a good savings plan. You should look at buying a house. Like, why are you buying that freaking brand new Ford F three fifty Super Duty Harley Davidson, you know, ninety two thousand dollar truck with your reenlistment bonus. I didn't have those conversations with dudes. You know, for me, it was like, we're, we're doing work. That's what we're doing. And I almost always felt like, you know, I don't wanna, dude, it's your life. You know what I mean? Like, hey, it's, hey, this, you know, he's young, he's gonna get, he's out there getting after a freaking nice truck,

• 1:06:57Jocko Willink?

  dude. Like, you know what I mean? Like, kind of that thing. And I just think that, I think that I didn't even recognize how much guidance guys could use at that phase. Yeah, that's what I think.

• 1:07:12JP Dinnell?

  But, yes, I agree with that for sure. That would have been awesome. Because, you know, I'm forty and my wife and I just closed on our own, our first house, like, together, which is crazy. But hey, whatever. It's a nice house. We skipped some steps along the way.

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  You went straight to the keeper.

• 1:07:27JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Which, thank you, by the way, for that opportunity, you and life. But, but, yes, I agree with what you're saying. But from my perspective, looking back when I was twenty two years old, twenty three years old, guess what? Like, yeah, we could have had some conversations about my finance and my life. And hey, JP, why are you, why are you still living paycheck to paycheck, you know, and doing those things? But at, for you, from that leadership standpoint, I also know you're evaluating that leadership capital. And what you were putting us through in training to prepare us for war, which was much more, much more important than, hey, JP, all your finances are aligned. Because guess what? There wasn't a lot of us that thought,

• 1:08:08JP Dinnell?

  myself, or a lot of the guys, were gonna come back from that deployment. And it's like, hey, if I can train these guys as hard as physically possible, and the emphasis is training for war, and also maintaining the high level leadership capital that you had, that you legitimately could ask us to do anything. In combat, anything in combat and we were going to do it for you. We're going to do it for Lake. We're going to do it for Seth. We were going to do that. That was much more important than saying, hey, man, why did you just, you know, trade in your truck for a brand new Mustang? Like, I just, like, I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to respectfully push back on that one, saying that you, Leif and Seth did the absolute best thing that you possibly could have done.

• 1:08:49Jocko Willink?

  I was also severely institutionalized. And by institutionalized, I mean, like, I was part of, I didn't, I didn't know much about, like, I was in the teams, dude, as you know, like, it wasn't same. Yeah. Like, we were all in the teams. And when you're, that's what we're looking at. And like, it was just the teams and then there's nothing else. The, the, the rest of the world is, is like an unknown thing that you don't really care about.

• 1:09:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and then also, the other thing I was going to say about, uh, you know, with your parents and going to church and not being mandatory, but not, but also at the same time, there's a, an expression I picked up from Echo, which is like, oh, that's just how, like, there's not even why, that's, that's just like, that's just how we, that's just how we do things. Yeah. You know, like, oh, like, on Sunday, we're going to church. That's just how, like, there's not even, it's, you know, when you, this is how, that's just how we do it. Then that's all there is to it. And so you don't even, you don't even have the perspective to be like, wait a second, well, why are we doing this? You don't even need an explanation. That's just what we're doing. You know, uh, there's a lot of things in the teams are like that. Like, that's just, that's

• 1:09:57Jocko Willink?

  just how, you know, that, that's just how it's going. That's just what we're doing. So there you go. Um, definitely some things I will improve upon in my next life.

• 1:10:11Jocko Willink?

  Continue to talk about travel, distribute broken glass nails and sharp rocks on roads to puncture tires. That's good information. How to, how to mess people up on water, communications, a whole chunk of stuff about electric power. And then finally, we get back into this, this thing that I, I, I think is really pertinent to our lives as people, especially our lives in a leadership position inside of an organization. So this section is called general interferences, general, general interference with organizations and production.

• 1:10:55Jocko Willink?

  Basically, this is how do you sabotage a business or a team? Okay. Starts off with organizations and conferences. One. Insist on doing everything through channels. Never permit shortcuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions.

• 1:11:15Jocko Willink?

  Like, how many times has someone, like, I gotta run that up through the chain? Yeah, I gotta put that through. That actually gonna go through the supply, like, that's such a destructive mode of operating.

• 1:11:27Jocko Willink?

  Number two. Make speeches. Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your points by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences. Never hesitate to make a few appropriate patriotic comments.

• 1:11:49Jocko Willink?

  Gosh. This has, this has wasted, this has destroyed and wasted so much time in the world. When people just start telling stories. It literally calls it out. Long anecdotes and accounts of your personal experiences. This is freaking heinous, dude. Oh.

• 1:12:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, look out for that one.

• 1:12:16JP Dinnell?

  Some layers there.

• 1:12:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and, and the thing is, on the other side, is like, this is, take all these things and think about what to do if you're trying to ruin something, and think about what you can do to not do this stuff. Like, hey, don't make a bunch of speeches. No one cares about the freaking time you did this, that, the other thing, back in 1996. Like, just don't say it. No one cares. So be quiet.

• 1:12:42Jocko Willink?

  Number three, when possible, refer all matters to committees for further study and consideration. Attempt to make the committees as large as possible, never less than five.

• 1:12:53JP Dinnell?

  Sounds like a nightmare.

• 1:12:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and yet it happens all the time. It's also a, a sign of someone that doesn't want to make a decision. And I'll give you a little hint, you don't have to make a big decision, you can just make a little iterative decision. You make a little iterative decision and say, hey, JP, you know what? Go ahead, try it, report back to me tomorrow and see what kind of feedback you get. Boom, done. Done, we're done. Instead, I can either say that, or I can say, you know what JP, why don't you form up a small committee of people, get together and discuss and come up with a proposal to me on how we can solve this entire problem. Like, this is going nowhere. And by the way, I want a minimum of five people in there. Like, this is never gonna work.

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Bring up

• 1:13:37Jocko Willink?

  bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.

• 1:13:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay, there you go.

• 1:13:49Jocko Willink?

  Just so, just keep your mouth shut. Haggle over precise wordings of communications minutes and resolutions.

• 1:13:58Jocko Willink?

  Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to reopen the question of the admissibility of that decision.

• 1:14:08Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's terrible because we get to see a lot of this, you know, we get to sit in a lot of meetings with a lot of clients and you get to see a lot of these behaviors take place.

• 1:14:19Jocko Willink?

  Advocate caution.

• 1:14:22Jocko Willink?

  It's, there's a lot of, a lot of quotes here in this. Advocate, quote, caution. Be, quote, reasonable and urge your fellow conferencies to also be reasonable, reasonable. And avoid haste, which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on.

• 1:14:42Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it funny that in the military, there's like a whole, a whole problem with being risk averse? And people not want to take any risk and they don't want to look bad and all that stuff. And here's like an actual advice on how to sabotage a team is by making people, hey, I don't know if you should do that JP.

• 1:15:00Jocko Willink?

  This stuff is so harsh.

• 1:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Be worried about the propriety of any decision. Raise the question of whether such action is contemplated. Lies within jurisdiction of the group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelon. We've all heard that before. I don't know what the boss is gonna think. Hey, you better think, you know what I mean? Just, is that, do you think we have the authority to make that decision?

• 1:15:30Jocko Willink?

  Next section is managers and supervisors. Demand written orders. Misunder- quote, misunderstand orders. Ask endless questions or engage in long correspondence about such orders. Quibble over them when you can. Do everything possible to delay the delivery of orders. Even though parts of an order may be ready beforehand, don't deliver it until it's completely ready.

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it interesting how that, right there, there's so many organizations that won't tell the team what's going on? So they can start to prepare for whatever's coming their way, but they don't know everything, so they don't say anything. Tell people what's going on.

• 1:16:12Jocko Willink?

  Don't order new working materials until your current stock's been virtually exhausted. So the slightest delay in filling your order will mean a shutdown. Order high quality materials which are hard to get. If you don't get them, argue about it. Warn that inferior materials will mean inferior work. Boy, you can hear this stuff all day, every day across the United States in businesses. In making work assignments, always sign out the unimportant jobs first. See that the important jobs are assigned to inefficient workers of, of poor machines. Insist on perfect work in relatively unimportant products. Ooh. Send back for refinishing. Those which have the least flaw.

• 1:16:55Jocko Willink?

  Approved defective parts whose flaws are not visible in the naked eye. How much time is wasted making something that will work perfect? It's gonna work, man. Go with it.

• 1:17:07Jocko Willink?

  Make mistakes in routing so that parts and materials we could send to the wrong place and the right, and the wrong plant. When training new workers given incomplete or misleading instructions. To lower morale. And with it, production. Be pleasant to inefficient workers. Give them undeserved promotions. Discriminate against efficient workers. Complain unjustly about their work.

• 1:17:34Jocko Willink?

  Hold conferences when there is more critical work to be done. Oh, I like that one. Hey, let's have a meeting.

• 1:17:43Jocko Willink?

  Multiply, multiply paperwork in plausible ways to start duplicating files.

• 1:17:53Jocko Willink?

  Multiply the procedures and clearances involved in issuing instructions paycheck and so on, paychecks and so on. See that three people have to approve everything where one would do. Hello bureaucracy.

• 1:18:08Jocko Willink?

  Apply all regulations to the last letter.

• 1:18:14Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it weird? Isn't it weird when you think about people that think they're doing good? I mean, let's face it, we work at companies where there's no, there's no one trying to sabotage the, the, the efficiency of the company and yet they're doing half these things. At least, yes. At least half these.

• 1:18:34Jocko Willink?

  That's why this is so important.

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one is office workers. Make mistakes in quantities of materials when you are copying orders, confuse similar names, use wrong addresses, prolong correspondence with government bureaus, misfile essential documents.

• 1:18:54Jocko Willink?

  In making carbon copies, make one too few so that an extra copying job will have to be done. Tell important callers the boss is busy or talking on another telephone, hold up until the next mail collection.

• 1:19:06Jocko Willink?

  And here's a big one, spread disturbing rumors that sound like inside dope. And they used the word dope in 1944. Hell, yeah. Inside dope.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  I have to look up the etymology of the word dope. Because for shooting, it's, it's your dope for your weapon. But that's, has the same con- connotation as this does. I wonder where that comes from? I'm gonna look it up.

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  Now we get to the employees, work slowly.

• 1:19:36Jocko Willink?

  Look, again, if you just take the opposite of these, like, don't work slowly, work, work quickly, make things happen. Think out ways to increase the number of movements necessary on your job. Use a light hammer instead of a heavy one, try to make a, try to make a small wrench do when a big one is necessary. Use little force where considerable force is needed, and so on. Oh, this is a good one. Contrive as many interruptions to your work as you can. This, I was, I was actually doing this today. I was on this section. And my wife came in to ask me like a random question.

• 1:20:16Jocko Willink?

  I was just like, yes, darling. Yep. Um, let me look. Yep. Okay. Here you go. And I was just thinking, how many, how many times do we allow things to interrupt us when we should be working? What kind of things have you set up for yourself that interrupt you? Whether it's your phone dinging, your computer, emails tinging on, like, what is it? You set the, you sabotage yourself. Again, self sabotage is in this big psychological thing that we do because we don't want to succeed. Could have been a rock star, but I always self sabotaged. No. You freaking turn your phone on and put it next to your chair when you should be working.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  That's what you do. Contrive as many interruptions to your work as you can. That's what you do. When changing the material on which you are working, as you would on a lathe or a punch, take needless time to do it. If you are cutting, shaping, or doing other measuring work, measure dimensions twice as often as you need to. When you go to the lavatory, spend a longer time than is necessary. Forget tools, so you have to go back and get after them.

• 1:21:26JP Dinnell?

  What's frustrating about what you're saying is there's a legitimate mindset and mentality behind this. Don't rush me. I get paid by the hour. I know. I remember I saw a guy wearing that shirt one time.

• 1:21:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, my gosh. Was he at the DMV?

• 1:21:48JP Dinnell?

  No. And then, um, I can't, where was I recently? I was on a trip. Um, I was, oh, it's,

• 1:21:59JP Dinnell?

  dang it's driving me crazy. It was, it was something with my travel, whether it was like the rental car or something. And, uh, oh yeah, I was dropping off the rental car and I was like, I didn't have all my stuff ready and prepped to get out of the vehicle. Like I tried to have all that stuff. And I'm like, hey man, I'm sorry. He goes, that's not a big deal, man. I get paid by the hour. It's just like, but you know, like I initially got frustrated and then I, I kind of like, I felt bad for this guy because he thinks that's a, he truly thinks that's an okay mindset to have. He thinks it's acceptable.

• 1:22:33Jocko Willink?

  He's sabotaging his life because he's not getting promoted, right? He's not the guy. And I'll tell you what, there's a couple-

• 1:22:38JP Dinnell?

  He was taught that also.

• 1:22:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. He was taught that. There's a couple of car rental companies that are known for their customer service and like they will never say that to you.

• 1:22:45JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Right? Uh, and but that guy is not getting promoted. He's sabotaging himself.

• 1:22:50JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:51Jocko Willink?

  By working as slowly as he can and not caring and no, don't worry about it. Like it's a bummer.

• 1:22:56JP Dinnell?

  It, it, I, again, I went from frustrated to I feel bad for this guy. I really, I really feel bad for this guy.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  Did you talk to him about it?

• 1:23:07JP Dinnell?

  You know, it was funny is I, I wanted to. I really wanted to, but I, and, um, I didn't because, um, you know, it would, it would have been like unsolicited coaching or advice.

• 1:23:21Jocko Willink?

  Solicited advice.

• 1:23:22JP Dinnell?

  And I don't think it was the opportunity where it would have had one, any impact. And, um, yeah, so.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:23:30JP Dinnell?

  Interesting.

• 1:23:31Jocko Willink?

  Unwanted advice. Let's think about that, you know, for future reference. Cause I bet there's a way to tactfully give people like-

• 1:23:42Jocko Willink?

  Like that kid, whoever this person was, they're, they're stuck, man.

• 1:23:47JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Jocko Willink?

  Like they're stuck in that, in that job for a long time.

• 1:23:51JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:23:52Jocko Willink?

  Until they figure it out, which is probably going to take three to, three to five years to say like, oh, this is kind of sucks.

• 1:23:58JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to be doing this anymore.

• 1:23:59JP Dinnell?

  It's when, it was when his environment gets so painful that it causes him to reflect upon it and say, oh, I need to change some things in my life.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  So, don't do that. Goes on here, even if you understand the language, pretend to not understand instructions in a foreign tongue. Pretend that instructions are hard to understand and ask to have them repeated more than once, or pretend that you are particularly anxious to do your work and pester the foreman with unnecessary questions. Do your work poorly and blame it on bad tools, machinery or equipment. Complain that these things are preventing you from doing your job right.

• 1:24:39Jocko Willink?

  This is, you already alluded to this one earlier. Never pass on your skill and experience to a new or less skillful worker. How many people are guilty of that? And you're literally following the directives to sabotage your organization. When you keep information, you never pass on your skill. So now I feel like for not making you read about face when you were 20 years old. I just kept it all.

• 1:25:06JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, that's exactly what you did.

• 1:25:09Jocko Willink?

  Snarl up administration in every possible way. Fill out forms illegibly so that they will have to be done over. Make mistakes or omit requested information in forms.

• 1:25:22Jocko Willink?

  If possible, join or help organize a group for presenting employee problems to the management. See that the procedures adopted are as inconvenient as possible for the management, involving the presence of a large number of employees at each presentation, entailing more than one meeting for each grievance, bringing up problems which they are largely imaginary and so on.

• 1:25:46Jocko Willink?

  Misroot materials and mix good parts with unusable scrap and rejected parts.

• 1:25:55Jocko Willink?

  And we're getting almost to the end here because this last section is called general devices for lowering morale and creating confusion. And it starts off, give lengthy and incomprehensible explanations when questioned. It's the opposite of simple, clear, concise. Give lengthy and incomprehensible explanations. Report imaginary spies or danger to the Gestapo or police.

• 1:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Letter C.

• 1:26:32Jocko Willink?

  Act stupid.

• 1:26:37Jocko Willink?

  And this is the big one that you caught as a critical issue in America. It is be as irritable and quarrelsome as possible without getting yourself into trouble. That's sabotage that's happening in America right now, by the way.

• 1:26:56Jocko Willink?

  Misunderstand all sorts of regulations concerning such matters as rationing, transportation and traffic regulations. Complain against ersatz material, which is like artificial materials. I'm not a hundred percent sure what they meant by that one.

• 1:27:12Jocko Willink?

  In public, treat Axis nationals or quislings coldly.

• 1:27:19Jocko Willink?

  Quislings. Quislings are people that support the invaders or support the enemy. So like this would be the people in France that were supporting the Nazis. And this word quislings, speaking of etymology, normally I catch words I don't know or I don't, I wonder where they come from. Quisling is one of them. It's named after a guy named Vidkun Quisling, who is a Norwegian leader who is pro-Nazi. And he led like the Nazi government and so they just hated him. They executed him in 1945, but the word, this, this book was written in 1944.

• 1:27:59Jocko Willink?

  And they were already using this guy from Norway, this political leader that like jumped sides to the Nazis. They were already using his name in the total pejorative. It's not capitalized, it's just quislings.

• 1:28:13Jocko Willink?

  Stop all conversation when Axis Nationals or Quizlings enter a cafe. Cry and sob hysterically at every occasion, especially when confronted by government clerks. Boycott all movies, entertainment, concerts, newspapers, which are in any way connected with Quizling authorities. And do not cooperate in salvage schemes.

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  Which means don't try and save anything. So there you go. There you go. A little information about sabotage. I think, uh, it's there.

• 1:28:49JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. How did you come across that book? Was it a gift? Was it random?

• 1:28:53Jocko Willink?

  So I have a, a client that I worked with in Scotland. His name is Colin. And he sent me, uh, like six of these things. It was like, hey, this is from a CIA manual. Except when he said it, I couldn't understand him because he does, because he mumbles. And a matter of fact, I just traded texts with him. He said that the last time I talked about him on this podcast, I said that he mumbles. And he said that, you know, that wasn't cool. And I said, no, it wasn't cool. It was accurate.

• 1:29:22Jocko Willink?

  So now I'm doubling down, Colin. I'm doubling down. The awesome thing about Colin is when I met him, you know, he was in sort of a mid-level manager position.

• 1:29:34Jocko Willink?

  And now he like, is very successful.

• 1:29:39JP Dinnell?

  That's awesome.

• 1:29:39Jocko Willink?

  And has a bunch of rental properties and has several children and, you know, a happy family. And just a great dude. Um, great guy. But he, he, he will send me stuff. You know, usually he, he titles my texts. I get a text from him. It'll say Frogman, Colin.

• 1:29:54JP Dinnell?

  Frogman. That's awesome.

• 1:29:55Jocko Willink?

  And he's got a question for me usually.

• 1:29:57JP Dinnell?

  That's rad. Yeah. Well, Colin, I won't make fun of your mumble. You can make fun of my stutter if you want to bring me out to Scotland to work with you. That's all right. That's awesome.

• 1:30:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No, he's a, a very cool guy. Like that. I think, I think this, this was in. Maybe like, oh, you know, I know when it was. It was when Podcast 11 came out with Leif because Colin and I drove from Scotland to England and we sat there in silence and listened to the podcast.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 1:30:29Jocko Willink?

  So it was Podcast 11, so that's 2015 or 2016. So that's like seven or eight years ago. And he still texts me, so there you go.

• 1:30:39Speaker 02

  That's rad.

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pretty cool. So thanks for the, thanks for the hint there, Colin. Appreciate it. I found the whole book, by the way, you know, not just gonna take some little text. But there it is. It's sabotage, everybody. It's not just an album by Black Sabbath. It's not just a song by the Beastie Boys. It's a real thing and it's there and we have to pay attention to it. And as always, you gotta pay attention, not that people are sabotaging you, which look, that could be happening. But first and foremost, make sure that you are not the saboteur.

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  Which means, as always, there's a really good chance that your biggest enemy is you, which also means that you have the ability to defeat that enemy pretty easily. So, there you go. All right, Echo Charles, speaking of trying not to get sabotaged, speaking of trying to overcome, speaking of trying to win.

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:31:48Jocko Willink?

  You know, we're trying to win across the board.

• 1:31:50Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:31:50Jocko Willink?

  Across the board. Lots of, lots of, you know, various categories that we're trying to win in. We got the mats of justice.

• 1:31:57Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:31:57Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Jocko Willink?

  We got the, the workout room.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:32:02Jocko Willink?

  We call it the gym.

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  Health and capability.

• 1:32:04Jocko Willink?

  Health and capability. Yeah, so what do we got? We gotta get, in order to do those things, we gotta have fuel.

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  Yes, we don't wanna sabotage ourselves. I know why we self sabotage, by the way.

• 1:32:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  Oh, you got the big answer. I got two of the main reasons.

• 1:32:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  That's it. First one is you get distracted by short-term payoff. And when I say payoff, that could be pleasure or relief, by the way.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  Here's the problem with your whole theory right now. The problem with your whole theory is-

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  First off, I didn't go into the theory.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  The whole theory is, the whole thing that you're saying right now is that you get distracted by short, that's not sabotage. Sabotage is something you intentionally do. Sabotage is something you intentionally do. You don't intentionally decide to get distracted. You unintentionally put your phone by your computer and answer, check Instagram. Okay, so you see the difference?

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:51Jocko Willink?

  Continue.

• 1:32:51Speaker 02

  Okay, so maybe, uh, maybe distraction might have distracted you from the meat of it. In fact, I won't say you're distracted by short-term payoff. I'm saying you choose the short-term payoff.

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  I say distracted a lot of time because you know, the idea of keeping your eyes on the prize, right? That's like when you can clearly focus on your long-term goals and you don't get quote-unquote distracted by these short-term things that come about. Diet, you know, reading, homework.

• 1:33:18Jocko Willink?

  Got distracted by a donut.

• 1:33:19Speaker 02

  Yes. You're distracted not by the donut itself, but for, you're distracted by the short-term pleasure that the donut might bring.

• 1:33:26Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  So anyway, so yes, so that short-term payoff sabotages your long-term payoff.

• 1:33:35Speaker 02

  It's still like an action that you've partaken.

• 1:33:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  That's, that's one. Then the second one is we kind of succumb to the pressure of that long-term goal. Like, like if you want a promotion, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna be this, the, I don't know, what's a promoter? CEO now.

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a big promotion.

• 1:33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, then you're like, oh damn, then now I get, in the back of your mind, you're like, dang, now I gotta actually be the CEO.

• 1:34:00Jocko Willink?

  Alright, bro.

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  So when you go in the interview, brother, it's true.

• 1:34:02Jocko Willink?

  No, no, I retract my statement. I retract my harassment.

• 1:34:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Can I retract your harassment?

• 1:34:07Speaker 02

  Yes, you can.

• 1:34:07Jocko Willink?

  Do you feel less harassed now?

• 1:34:08Speaker 02

  Accepted, accepted, 100%.

• 1:34:09Jocko Willink?

  Because what you're saying is actually was my whole premise. Remember I was saying like, hey, you're gonna do these things?

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:34:16Jocko Willink?

  And it's sap, you're sabotaging yourself? And they're kind of unintentional. You know, you're kind of doing like, oh, well, I just, you know, I'm just gonna do this right now. I'm just gonna, you're gonna put my phone by my computer while I'm working.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Jocko Willink?

  You know? Cause I, cause I might get the call. It's kind of unintentional, but it's sabotage. So I'm retracting my harassment, giving you the floor. You are correct.

• 1:34:40Speaker 02

  Right on. So you, and then you get the, and this is just something that's common, but you gotta look out for it. You get the double where you do both. So like, let's say, oh, I got this big interview tomorrow and I might get the job, the promotion, right? So I'm feeling the pressure of the promotion.

• 1:34:54Jocko Willink?

  You mean the promotion?

• 1:34:55Speaker 02

  The promotion, hell yeah. Um, so I'm feeling the pressure and

• 1:35:00Jocko Willink?

  You mean the presh?

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  The

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  So I have anxiety, right? Look, just a little bit anxiety. I'm worried, you know, that's normal, right? Cause I got this big pressure scenario going out, going on tomorrow. So you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna have a drink.

• 1:35:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  Just to, for the short term relief.

• 1:35:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  Because um, short term uh, pleasure is, one form of pleasure is relief, you know, like you can't breathe or something and you breathe it for relief, right? So you, you have a drink, then it's like good to you, right? So you get the short term half, you have another one, you have another one, you have another one, you have? You go to the interview, you jam yourself up, but in the back of your head, you're kind of like, I don't know if I was ready for that anyway, kind of a thing.

• 1:35:37Jocko Willink?

  And that's because you lied to yourself about what the actual relief that you needed. Now, if you would have went and trained or had a badass workout, it could provide a better form of relief, which the long term is.

• 1:35:50Speaker 02

  Exactly right. So you're distracted by that short term.

• 1:35:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  Pleasure, whether it's relief or, or just sheer pleasure, whatever.

• 1:35:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that short term plus succumbing to the, the pressure, the presh.

• 1:36:01Jocko Willink?

  The presh.

• 1:36:02Speaker 02

  Of the actual, like, to be succeed, you know, you ever heard of the idea of fear of success? You ever heard of that before?

• 1:36:07Jocko Willink?

  You know, this is another thing I have a hard time like being like, you know, I was gonna be a rock star. And then, you know, they wanted me to come down to the recording studio, you know, at nine? And I just got so liquored up and I just didn't show up, you know, cause I just, I just, I just, I'm afraid of success. Well, I go understand, tell me a story where this shit makes sense.

• 1:36:28Speaker 02

  The fear of success isn't the fear of that, like, it, it's different, okay? So fear of success is like, let's say I wanna be a, I don't know, football player, right? And you have this fear of success, and not everyone has it, but let's say you do have it. It's not that, oh, I'm scared of being a football player. It's more, shoot, now that I'm actually a pro football player, I have to perform as a pro football player and I'm ready for that pressure. That's kind of what it is.

• 1:36:54Jocko Willink?

  You really think there's people that are like that?

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 1:36:56Jocko Willink?

  You really think there's people that played in junior high, they played in high school, they played in college, they've been playing this game their whole life? And now they get to the NFL and they're like, oh no, I don't wanna make it, cause I'm gonna feel pressure.

• 1:37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I, I think it's way less common in football, yes, because of those reasons, but if you think of like a normal, uh, what do you call hierarchy, like in the corporate ladder? Or something like this, where it's like, oh yeah, tomorrow you're like. You're gonna be the head of this whole, I don't know.

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  Whole region, this whole department.

• 1:37:25Speaker 02

  Exactly right. Man, congratulations. And now you're feeling the pressure of being that? It's like, oh, I'd way rather be here. That way I'm not expected. Expectations are lower.

• 1:37:35JP Dinnell?

  Would it make more sense though, people said the fear of responsibility?

• 1:37:38Jocko Willink?

  Yes, that would make sense.

• 1:37:40JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, because that's what that's what I'm hearing you say. It's like, hey, you have responsibility to perform. You have responsibility to lead. You have responsibility to do all these things with those promotions. And people don't want that responsibility. And most people are self-aware enough to realize, oh, I'm not ready for that. And so that's why I think the fear of responsibility, but the fear of success, when, and again, success is all relative. Like what success to you is gonna be different to me, the Jocko and everything else like that. I think that's a lie that people say when they fail to succeed. Because now they're justifying their failure like, man, I didn't, you know, I didn't.

• 1:38:17Jocko Willink?

  I didn't want to be that anyway.

• 1:38:18JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I didn't really want to be a SEAL. Really? You sacrificed how many? Like, I mean, you know, guys are going through, like, you know, I just, I don't know. I don't, I don't believe in the fear of success. I would align with you and say a fear of responsibility.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  I agree with you.

• 1:38:32JP Dinnell?

  And the fear of responsibility comes from most likely a self-awareness of like, oh, I'm not prepared.

• 1:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, or they don't want it. Dude, it's.

• 1:38:40JP Dinnell?

  Which is okay. Actually admit that you don't want those things.

• 1:38:43Jocko Willink?

  I, I was at SEAL Team One. I was a new guy at SEAL Team One. A guy's walking through the locker room and he's like, oh, yeah. And I was like, what happened? He goes, I just made E5 Master Chief as far as I'm concerned. Cause he didn't want, he was just gonna stay there. E5 Mafia. You're not really responsible for anything except for whatever. The boat motors or the weapons or the radios, but you're not responsible for the op or anything like that. So you're just kind of cruising. And that's, that's where he wanted to be. There's people, there's all kinds of people like that. Good for them. That's cool. Like you said, JP, if you say, hey, look, man, I just want to stay here at this level. I like being in charge of this small team. I don't want to step up. I don't want to be going to the, the board meetings or whatever. You're just, I'm cool where I'm at. That's perfectly fine. That's perfectly fine.

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  That, that, if you're bombing, uh, you know, an interview.

• 1:39:34JP Dinnell?

  And you say, well, I always self sabotage because I'm afraid of being successful.

• 1:39:39Jocko Willink?

  You should say what JP said, which is, well, I bomb interviews because I actually don't want to get promoted because I don't want to, I don't, I don't want to take that extra responsibility.

• 1:39:46JP Dinnell?

  We actually knew guys in the SEAL teams that's like purposely failed their advancement exams because they did not want the responsibility of becoming an E6. Legitimate, even though they'd make more money to them, it didn't matter. They did, they're like, nope. And to the point where one of these guys, and he's a good dude, one of these guys finally got pulled aside by the leadership and like, hey, if you fail this exam one more time.

• 1:40:07Jocko Willink?

  Higher tenure.

• 1:40:08JP Dinnell?

  You can get kicked out of the Navy. They're like, we know what you're doing. Cause he was so smart, so smart. We like, we know what you're doing. Guess what? Takes test, like almost aces it and does really well. And it was because he never wanted that, that upper spot. I, I think I've talked about it on one of the many podcasts that we've done together or it's on another one, or I know I definitely share this with clients all the time. I didn't want to be promoted in the SEAL teams. All I wanted to do was just be that E5 mafia guy. I wanted to be a sniper and a machine gunner. That's all I wanted, legitimately all I wanted. Now there was a few reasons behind that.

• 1:40:49JP Dinnell?

  One was like, what you're talking about before is like, before I had tried to step up and lead and do things and I had older guys, like bad leaders, just completely crush me. Completely crush me. And I'm like, all right, cool. Well, I'm not doing that anymore. Like unless you're glutton for punishment, how many times are you going to continue to try to step up and lead and do things? You know, not going to. And so I didn't, you know, and then I also had some personal insecurities from being in speech therapy and growing up with a speech impediment. And, you know, I used to get picked on in school because I would stutter and mix up my words.

• 1:41:18Jocko Willink?

  How did you overcome that? Did you like go to speech therapy?

• 1:41:21JP Dinnell?

  So my parents had me in, no, the speech therapy.

• 1:41:24Jocko Willink?

  Your dad beat it out of you?

• 1:41:27JP Dinnell?

  My, uh, you know, my, I actually remember my dad pulling me aside one time. I was in junior high and I had saw some of my friends from elementary school and we were at the mall. And, you know, I, so I was in speech therapy all throughout.

• 1:41:41Jocko Willink?

  How bad was your stutter?

• 1:41:43JP Dinnell?

  It was really bad.

• 1:41:44Jocko Willink?

  What letters did you stutter on?

• 1:41:46JP Dinnell?

  I don't remember. I would, I still do it to this day. I mix up my words. I make up words. So that's a cool trick I have. Like I've actually done that, like at a speaking engagement and Leif pulled me aside. He goes, you know, that word does, it's not a real word. I'm like, what am I saying?

• 1:42:00Jocko Willink?

  Come under pile.

• 1:42:03JP Dinnell?

  And I can't even think of the actual word right now. Cause like Leif like helped me correct it.

• 1:42:08Jocko Willink?

  You feel Vaughn here right now to make up some words?

• 1:42:11JP Dinnell?

  I want to meet him one day. I want to go to one of his shows. It would be awesome. Anyways, so before we digress down that path. And so.

• 1:42:19Jocko Willink?

  Did you hear the story about Jack Daniel Hill, me and Theo?

• 1:42:23JP Dinnell?

  Probably.

• 1:42:24Jocko Willink?

  I go to Nashville for a gig.

• 1:42:26JP Dinnell?

  Remind me to come back to this.

• 1:42:27Jocko Willink?

  I go to Nashville for a gig and I text Theo and I'm with Jack. Jack's like escorting.

• 1:42:32JP Dinnell?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember this.

• 1:42:33Jocko Willink?

  And so like it's me, Jack and Theo hanging out for like, we, we were just hanging out in the hotel lobby. Theo was, where are you at? And I go, I'm here. And he goes, I'll be there in 15 minutes. He just rolls down. We stood in this, we sat down in this hotel lobby for like almost two hours.

• 1:42:51JP Dinnell?

  How did Jack not pass out from laughing?

• 1:42:54Jocko Willink?

  He was, it was.

• 1:42:55JP Dinnell?

  Cause Jack also has one of the most amazing laughs ever.

• 1:42:57Jocko Willink?

  It was just contagious. Saying you can add, I, if I would have recorded this, it would have been like the Netflix special of the year for, for, for the century for Theo. It was just freaking hilarious, but part of it was because it was so off the record. It was just wild.

• 1:43:13JP Dinnell?

  And that's what I like. I like Theo's stuff. Some of it, I'm like. Okay, I can't believe you just said that, which it brings me back to honestly being in a platoon. I think that's why I like his stuff so much. Cause you just hear some stuff, you're like, that is something actually tunes like so just crazy. And then again, he's also so intelligent, like team guys that he can like actually listen with intent and then articulate things at a level that you're like this, oh, this is why he's as successful as he is. So

• 1:43:43Jocko Willink?

  weird thing about it though, is, is you know, these comedians, which I didn't realize until I started like knowing like Rogan and stuff. That, that they write the stuff and they like prepare it and then they go do it over and over again and they, they rehearse it in front of an audience, which is what the smaller gigs are. And then they do, and so, so it's all prepared. So then you think, well, ah, then maybe they're not as cool as you think they are. But then when you get with those guys with the old Rogan, like they're freaking hilarious where there's no preparation. You know what I mean? It's not like that's, that's a performance, but that's not their only way of being hilarious. They're also hilarious just in life.

• 1:44:21JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. But that also becomes part of like what you focus on and you know, what the amount of time and the reps that you put in. When I did my very first gig for Echelon Front, it was rehearsed. You know, I did that rehearsal for you and Leif over Skype. And I had been, I was doing six to eight hours a day of preparing that one hour keynote for weeks and weeks. And we literally like, you know, and so just to be able to prepare it, to do it for you guys, so that you guys give me a thumbs up to go actually do the in-person gig. And when I did it, it was absolutely rehearsed. Like everything I knew exactly what I was going to say. And then for a while, that's exactly how it was. And now it's to the point, six and a half, almost seven years later, which is crazy.

• 1:45:03JP Dinnell?

  It's like, I don't actually, I don't need a slide deck. I don't need anything. I can go sit down. I can work with a client. I could do a keynote, half day workshop, full day workshop with no slide deck and be able to share stories, work through problems and do it all because it's what we do. And I think that's where those guys get, they get to that level where it's just, it's who they are.

• 1:45:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, what, what stories are you going back to?

• 1:45:24JP Dinnell?

  Okay. Speech impediment. Uh, so my parents had me in speech therapy and it, it helped to learn how to like, learn to articulate certain things and read things and process them a certain way. Um, and it was awesome. But you know, my parents were just, My parents were awesome about it. And I remember I was in junior high and I got super and you know, just embarrassed and intimidated by some of the kids that I seen. Again, I was super small, skinny, short kid. And they're all like they're all kind of blown up in junior high and they're all taller. And I was talking with some of my friends. And I just remember my dad pulled me aside. He's like, hey, is everything okay? And I said, yeah, he goes, you didn't make eye contact to any of them.

• 1:46:05JP Dinnell?

  And, you know, and he was, it was awesome. He was just very gentle with asking me like, hey, is everything okay? You know, and you make eye contact and it was a coaching opportunity that he had with me of like, hey, when you talk to people, you need to be making eye contact. And here's why it's important. I still remember, I remember exactly where at in the sunrise mall, standing in front of zoomies. Like, I remember like that conversation is a core memory, because my dad took the time to like, ask me a question. He listened to what I had to say. He gave me feedback. He coached me. He helped me and we talked about it. And it was cool because I know also the intent, my dad cared about me. He really, obviously, my parents care about me and they love me. But he really cared about

• 1:46:49JP Dinnell?

  me enough to, to take the time to coach me and teach me and tell me about it. And, and so I was aware of that. And then in high school, it was like, yeah, whatever. But it was when I got in the military, is when I learned I actually had to talk in front of people and talk to people. And, you know, and especially if you're going to be in the SEAL teams, you know, you have to be able to communicate. Well, okay, it's same concept as when I went through SEAL training, I had to shut things off, literally shut things off in my brain. I'm claustrophobic and have a fear of drowning. So going through SEAL training makes how much sense? Like legitimately, like if we're in a swimming pool, and people start roughhousing, I get out. It makes me super anxious. Really? How did you get through freaking pool comp?

• 1:47:30JP Dinnell?

  Legitimately had to shut it off. Like legitimately, just shut it off in my brain. And just say, you know what, I've been trained. And so one, I trusted God 100% with everything because I was my full belief that this is what God had designed me to do with my life. And accurate assessment. Yeah. And so there was like zero doubt that that's what I was supposed to do.

• 1:47:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but he's not always going to be able to give you oxygen down there.

• 1:48:01JP Dinnell?

  He gave me the ability to learn to train enough where I had the the skill set to make it through all that stuff without failing any. I didn't fail anything in pool comp.

• 1:48:08Jocko Willink?

  So when you had this speech impediment where you'd stutter, would you, when did you overcome it? Grades or was it like instant? Was it like one day you just figured it out?

• 1:48:21JP Dinnell?

  Working at a show in front.

• 1:48:23Jocko Willink?

  But you didn't stutter when when you and I worked together, I never heard you like stutter.

• 1:48:29JP Dinnell?

  No, because it was game time. If I was speaking in front of seals or teaching and instructing, it was game time. Now, in normal conversation, I'll stutter sometimes and I'll mix up my words. And then if I get frustrated or embarrassed, then it gets a little bit worse. And but when it came to like, hey, we're in a platoon or I was, you know, running trading with you. It was just a, it was a mindset shift, just like going through pool comp and buds. It was like, hey.

• 1:48:55Jocko Willink?

  Do you have any videos of you as a kid stuttering? Cause I want to see them.

• 1:48:59JP Dinnell?

  We might be able to find find them, I'm sure.

• 1:49:01Jocko Willink?

  It's just, it's really hard for me to picture you stuttering.

• 1:49:05JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:05Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's like, like I said, I've never, never heard you do it. I've worked with people that stuttered before and it was like, you know, it's real, obviously obvious.

• 1:49:14JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Now I would say, uh, mine wasn't as bad as like when you're thinking of someone who's.

• 1:49:19Jocko Willink?

  What about when you, what about when you were in seventh grade or whatever? What about the seventh grade or whatever, fifth grade?

• 1:49:24JP Dinnell?

  For sure. Yeah. Yeah. But my parents were awesome with, you know, just, you know, taking that pressure off and, you know, hey, take a breath.

• 1:49:32Jocko Willink?

  Did you hear the podcast Echo and I did about the monster experiment?

• 1:49:35JP Dinnell?

  I'm sure I have.

• 1:49:36Jocko Willink?

  They took the kids, they took kids that had no speech impediment and told them, hey, you've got this slight speech impediment. It's probably going to get worse. And sure enough, they developed speech impediments and they got bad.

• 1:49:47JP Dinnell?

  My parents did the opposite.

• 1:49:48Jocko Willink?

  They took people that actually had stutters and said, hey, oh, that thing, oh, don't worry about that. It's actually nothing. It's normal in your development. It'll go away. And it went away.

• 1:49:56JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:56Jocko Willink?

  And everything in between. And those, those kids that they did this to sued them and got millions of dollars back in the day before everyone sued everyone. So

• 1:50:06JP Dinnell?

  That's so, yeah.

• 1:50:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's crazy, right?

• 1:50:08JP Dinnell?

  My parents are the opposite of like, hey, man, it's actually not that bad. Hey, nobody notices. Hey, if you, if you, if you're starting.

• 1:50:13Jocko Willink?

  You sound like an idiot. That's why I was joking. I said, like, your dad beat it out of you. Like, every time you studied, you get you.

• 1:50:20JP Dinnell?

  No, it was the exact opposite. It was all, my parents were so, were so awesome about it. And, uh, you know, just never made me feel insecure about it. So they made it to where it wasn't an issue.

• 1:50:30Jocko Willink?

  Like in Ashland Front, when someone's real nervous before, like at the muster. I'm always just like, yeah, dude, you're gonna do great. Uh, in my mind, I might be thinking like, oh, this is a trade wreck.

• 1:50:39JP Dinnell?

  All aboard.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, well, you gotta just say like, oh dude, you're ready. And, and of course they go out knocking out of the park because they're like, oh, okay, I'm good to go. As opposed to saying like, I don't know if you're ready for this. That's when people fall apart.

• 1:50:51JP Dinnell?

  At what point does anybody think that's gonna make anything better for somebody ever?

• 1:50:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's not a good plan.

• 1:50:57JP Dinnell?

  I don't know if, like, at what point, like, does you say?

• 1:51:01Jocko Willink?

  It's people that are, people that are unaware, people that don't understand other people are like, dude, you're not ready right now. I mean, this could be before a wrestling match. This could be before a jujitsu tournament. This could be before an MMA fight. This could be before a, a speech, like anything that's gonna hurt someone's confidence before they go and actually execute.

• 1:51:18JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 1:51:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's no point. You're hurting that. You need to give them some confidence. And, and good luck. Yeah, dude, you're ready. Go kick ass.

• 1:51:26JP Dinnell?

  That's what I've always told Aiden for wrestling, like, hey, you're ready. Go have fun.

• 1:51:31Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:51:31JP Dinnell?

  Make him pay. Make him pay.

• 1:51:35JP Dinnell?

  Like, that's, you know?

• 1:51:36Jocko Willink?

  I like how we went from go have fun to make him pay.

• 1:51:38JP Dinnell?

  Well, that is fun. Make him pay, you know? Uh, but we're also talking about a combat sport, like, you know? And it's awesome, like Aiden's mindset is like, in, in reality is like, no matter what you say, hey, guess what? That is factual and it's true. You are ready. You have all the knowledge, all the training to be able to go out there and execute. Now, whether you're able to execute those things or not, I mean, that's gonna be, you know, your ability to actually execute them out there. But you're ready. Go have fun. Make him pay.

• 1:52:05Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Alright, so speaking of wrestling, speaking of getting after it, we're gonna need fuel.

• 1:52:11Speaker 02

  Um, real quick.

• 1:52:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, oh, we're going back.

• 1:52:14Speaker 02

  We didn't say you had two. No, no, I agreed with you about the successful, uh, or sorry, fear of responsibility. But I think a lot of times when people think of success, they kind of lump, they lump everything together.

• 1:52:24Jocko Willink?

  Well, in order for you to be successful, it requires a good amount of responsibility.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:52:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, this is sort of like when Jordan Peterson's like, oh, you know, men have all this success. And he's like, well, if you think men that are successful, like sitting, you know, with their feet up and not doing anything. It's like, no, those men that are quote unquote, successful actually have an immense amount of pressure. They're working freaking 80 hours a week. They never get to rest. They're freaking recording podcasts at nine o'clock, 10 o'clock at night on a whatever. On their daughter's birthday, on their, on their wife's anniversary, whatever, their anniversary.

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  Happens to me.

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  Right? You see what I'm saying? So these things happen.

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly right. So, and the point is, it's all lumped in together, you know, where, where someone's like, oh, basically if I get this position or of six, if I get into this position of success, then I gotta do successful stuff. And I don't know if I'm ready for all that. I don't know if I, I got what it takes, kind of an idea. I think that's it. And I have heard of this, that some people, they're scared of like, oh shoot, if I get all this success, now I have more to lose. You know, kind of a thing.

• 1:53:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm calling, I, and when I, if someone out there feels like that, please come tell me. Cause I'm kind of, anyone that told me like, you know, I was just afraid I'd have so much, so much to lose, like whatever, bro.

• 1:53:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:42Jocko Willink?

  Tell me you wouldn't roll the dice.

• 1:53:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:44Jocko Willink?

  And be like, I got to keep it, yo.

• 1:53:46Speaker 02

  I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever say like, hey, I have, I have a fear of success. I've heard of like, people say like, oh, that person sabotages themselves because it's like they have a fear of success. I, I've never heard anyone say, like, say it as an excuse ever in real life.

• 1:54:02JP Dinnell?

  But anyway, I feel like that's how it works, but then again, I don't know, because I'm just me.

• 1:54:07Jocko Willink?

  And you have no fear of success, apparently.

• 1:54:08JP Dinnell?

  No. I got my feet up over here. Collecting.

• 1:54:13Jocko Willink?

  Over there pressing record.

• 1:54:15JP Dinnell?

  Oh, man, it's hard. It's hard for a brother.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  All right, jogofuel.com.

• 1:54:19JP Dinnell?

  I'll tell you what I am doing. Lifting.

• 1:54:22Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:54:22JP Dinnell?

  Conditioning.

• 1:54:23Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:54:24JP Dinnell?

  Rolling the jujitsu.

• 1:54:25Jocko Willink?

  Back in the game.

• 1:54:25JP Dinnell?

  Back in the game. Been back for a little bit.

• 1:54:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:28JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:28Jocko Willink?

  Back. It's good to be back, isn't it?

• 1:54:30JP Dinnell?

  Well, technically, I was never really out. I was just like, you know, I was like, I'll catch this one. I'll go here. I mean, maybe I'll skip this, you know, it's like that. But now it's like back in the road. You know how you have the routine?

• 1:54:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:40JP Dinnell?

  Where you like, you don't be like, oh, wait, I haven't gone to do this. You know, it's in the rotation. That's part of the game, man. So, you know, you catch a little more in it right now.

• 1:54:48Jocko Willink?

  Back in the rotation.

• 1:54:49JP Dinnell?

  So, yes, it's important, man. It's important for success and just for everyday, uh, life. You see what I'm saying?

• 1:54:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:54:55JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, all this stuff. We do need fuel. What's the new hotness right now?

• 1:54:57Jocko Willink?

  Hydrate.

• 1:54:58JP Dinnell?

  Hydrate all day.

• 1:54:59Jocko Willink?

  Jogohydrate. I've drank. So I'm drinking that like crazy right now.

• 1:55:03JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:04Jocko Willink?

  It's freaking taste delicious. It, you can feel it like when you're, and you know, well, you know, you guys both know how much I sweat. It's a lot. I need to replenish. Get the hydrate. It's freaking outstanding.

• 1:55:16JP Dinnell?

  Oh, yeah. It saved me last night. I trained at my buddy Anthony Kronk's gym. I, uh, one of our black belts under Formiga opened up his own gym in Crum. It's in Crum, Texas, close to the Dallas-Fort Worth area, called Eclipse Jiu-Jitsu.

• 1:55:29Jocko Willink?

  Eclipse Jiu-Jitsu.

• 1:55:29JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:30Jocko Willink?

  Go get some.

• 1:55:30JP Dinnell?

  And, uh, so you got Anthony there and, you know, it's, it's awesome. It's this big, open, like warehouse, industrial type of like space. And he already outgrew his first location. Hasn't even been a year. Got to the new place. Last night was their first official, like, day in the new locations. So, uh, myself, Steven Little, Josh Strasburger, we went there to go train. And I had one of the packs. I felt like a jerk because I didn't bring one for the guys. I just was right out of the house, grabbed one. Was drinking it before training and, uh, and then during training and it legitimately saved me last night.

• 1:56:02Jocko Willink?

  You can feel it.

• 1:56:03JP Dinnell?

  You know, that Texas heat's rolling in right now, man. And I was just like, I am thankful that I had that. And then getting off the plane today as well, like.

• 1:56:12Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:56:12JP Dinnell?

  After travel, it should be an SOP for everybody.

• 1:56:15Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:56:16JP Dinnell?

  Because you're gonna feel that fatigue from just basic travel. Boom.

• 1:56:21Jocko Willink?

  Two grams of D ribos, natural sweeteners. It's just freaking good to go. Vitamin C, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, magnesium. Like it's just good to go. It's what you need. Check that out. Get yourself some, get yourself some of this too, right here. Some of that. Some of that real energy.

• 1:56:39JP Dinnell?

  That go energy.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, go energy. Get yourself some of that. Jocko Fuel.com. You can get that. You can get the, the Molk. You get immunity, joint warfare. You can get the stuff at Vitamin Shoppe, GNC. You can get it at Wawa, bottom right corner, by the way.

• 1:56:57Jocko Willink?

  GNC, we're in the military commissaries. We're in Afees now. Well, we're, we're not there yet, but we just, we're going into Afees. So everyone, all you, all you troopers serving right now around the world, we got to, we got an Afees. So you can get in there and get some overseas and everywhere else. Hannaford's, Dash Stores, and Maryland Wake Forest, Shop Right, HEB. You know, we're in HEB. What's up, Tejas? You know, where in HEB? How far is HEB from your house, your new house?

• 1:57:26Jocko Willink?

  Don't even know yet.

• 1:57:26JP Dinnell?

  I don't even know that yet. I don't have it mapped out.

• 1:57:28Jocko Willink?

  Blasphemy.

• 1:57:29JP Dinnell?

  I know. I agree.

• 1:57:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's one close by because you are in Texas.

• 1:57:33JP Dinnell?

  I know. Well, Central Market needs to get in the game because they're a family. They're under the HEB brand. And that's, yeah, Central Market needs to get in the game.

• 1:57:41Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:57:41JP Dinnell?

  With the Jocko Fuel products.

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  We'll talk to HEB about that.

• 1:57:44JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:44Jocko Willink?

  We'll see what's up.

• 1:57:45JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Central Market would be, that's closer than an HEB.

• 1:57:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:57:49JP Dinnell?

  But.

• 1:57:50Jocko Willink?

  Uh, we are in HEB. We'll get into Central Market. Sorry about that. We'll get in, we're in Meyer. Uh, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields. You know, we're in the Shields. You need to get anything you need in Shields.

• 1:58:02JP Dinnell?

  Shields is incredible.

• 1:58:03Jocko Willink?

  It's insane.

• 1:58:04JP Dinnell?

  You know what? That's, uh, one of our clients, Groundworks.

• 1:58:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:08JP Dinnell?

  One of the owners, uh, uh, Keith, awesome guy. He owned one of the locations that was acquired from Groundworks. Still helps with building everything. His grandfather started Shields.

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  Shields is legit.

• 1:58:20JP Dinnell?

  It's so awesome.

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, and you know what else we're in right now? Just little gyms, little CrossFit gyms, little jiu jitsu gyms. If you got a CrossFit gym, if you got a jiu jitsu gym, you got any kind of gym. And you wanna sell Jocko Fuel there? Email J F sales at Jocko Fuel dot com. We'll get you in the game. So there you go. Jocko Fuel dot com. Speaking of, what'd you say? The hotness? Did you say that?

• 1:58:45JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, the new hotness.

• 1:58:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, okay. I'm not gonna say that.

• 1:58:48JP Dinnell?

  That's from.

• 1:58:48Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of new, cool stuff that's out. OriginUSA.com. RTX gear. Roll, train, execute. You know, uh, basically it's like workout gear.

• 1:59:02JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:59:02Jocko Willink?

  Have you gotten yours yet?

• 1:59:03JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:59:04Jocko Willink?

  Freaking dope, huh?

• 1:59:05JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, we used them.

• 1:59:06Jocko Willink?

  Did you get yours?

• 1:59:07JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 1:59:08Jocko Willink?

  Day oh. All right, okay.

• 1:59:11JP Dinnell?

  It's all good.

• 1:59:12Jocko Willink?

  You like long sleeve? Not really.

• 1:59:14JP Dinnell?

  I like everything. Yeah, I'll wear a long sleeve. I'll wear a short sleeve or the shorts.

• 1:59:17Jocko Willink?

  Just cause I got some extra long sleeves, but I ain't got.

• 1:59:19JP Dinnell?

  Well, then I will wear. I will wear a long sleeve. You got an extra long sleeve.

• 1:59:23Jocko Willink?

  Yep. This is one of the first things that I wanted to do when, when we started looking at the next product line was to make, you know, wicking, lightweight workout gear. It took a long time to get it made here in America, to make it here in America, to find the right materials. So, but we did it. We pulled it off. RTX gear, it's out. Uh, we also got Hunt gear. We got the Jiu Jitsu Gis. What else? Rash Guards.

• 1:59:49JP Dinnell?

  Rash Guards, for sure. That new gi is legit.

• 1:59:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the Nano Pearl.

• 1:59:55JP Dinnell?

  That is insane. I, I, I ordered one for myself and Aiden, and even Aiden's like, dude.

• 2:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:02JP Dinnell?

  It's just awesome.

• 2:00:03Jocko Willink?

  I wanna make some kind of like a, like if you ever have to wear a suit.

• 2:00:08JP Dinnell?

  Sure.

• 2:00:08Jocko Willink?

  Like make a suit from that.

• 2:00:10JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 2:00:12Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? I've seen suits, I've seen suits that legit, like high-end suits that look like, kinda like they could be made with gi material. I've seen suits like that.

• 2:00:21JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, that would be legit. The whole Denver SWAT team just got, just ordered the, the new Nano Pro.

• 2:00:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:30JP Dinnell?

  Our boy Jesse, he got back on full-time Denver SWAT.

• 2:00:34Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 2:00:34JP Dinnell?

  All those guys train and he's like, I guess I'm training Jiu Jitsu. So they all ordered them. It was pretty cool.

• 2:00:39Jocko Willink?

  We used half of our material to make Jesse a gi.

• 2:00:42JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, well, and for all the guys on the Denver SWAT team. Shout out to those guys.

• 2:00:47Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Oh, a hundred percent made in America, by the way. Cause we're in an economic war right now.

• 2:00:52JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:52Jocko Willink?

  With China.

• 2:00:55Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're coming, they're, they're trying. They're trying to take our manufacturing away. That's what's happening. They're watching our culture rip itself apart, by the way. They're seeing our, they're taking our manufacturing overseas, taking jobs, having us put our money into their pockets. They have a long-term strategy. That's what they're doing. We're fighting it. And that's one of the ways we're fighting it. OriginUSA.com. Help the security of this country. Do not put money into the communist hands.

• 2:01:32Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 2:01:32Speaker 02

  It's true. Also, if you want to represent on this path, discipline equals freedom is one of them. Good, like all these good, all these cool, you know, Jocko stuffs is where you get them. JacoStore.com. It's true.

• 2:01:46Jocko Willink?

  Jocko stuffs, plural.

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of stuff's on there. Also, there is what we call the Shirt Locker. You came up with that. No, you approved that one. Someone else came up with that.

• 2:01:57Jocko Willink?

  Someone, someone on Twitter. You wouldn't know about Twitter anymore, would you? Did you get locked out again?

• 2:02:02Speaker 02

  I, well, you know, that's not.

• 2:02:04Jocko Willink?

  He freaking, he freaking. What'd you do? You got hacked. Yeah, he got hacked.

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  It happens to the best of us. Nonetheless, I'm back. And so is the Shirt Locker. See what I'm saying? So the Shirt Locker is a subscription scenario. You get a new shirt every month. Good designs. Yeah, I gotta admit something to you. This, this past month, I kind of, I kind of went like, what do you call when you brush up against the?

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Whatever, of whatever, you know, but there's guardrails of this and that. And maybe the design was slightly more controversial than it should have been.

• 2:02:33Jocko Willink?

  What was it?

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  Uh, don't fuck it up. It didn't say the F U C K on it though. It said, it just said F with the thing.

• 2:02:41Jocko Willink?

  What's the thing?

• 2:02:42Speaker 02

  No, no, no, the, um, X flag. And K. There's no even C K.

• 2:02:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:02:48Speaker 02

  But whatever. That's just, that was my thought process.

• 2:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Did you get some pushback?

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  Some pushback, yeah, on that one. But hey.

• 2:02:53JP Dinnell?

  Is it the same amount of pushback you got for the one of like, let's get stoned or, uh, what's the stoner?

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Well, it's very early. What's today? Like the sixth?

• 2:03:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that one was, that was my direction too. I was like, hey, make this, cause that's from a story from the Vietnam SEAL. That came back and it was written on his stoner. Someone had carved into the, into the stock of his stoner. Everybody must get stoned. How freaking epic and cool is that? So I said, bro, put a stoner sixty-three, put smoke coming out and have that shit smell and smell and some hippie lettering. Everybody must get stoned. So it had, you know, drug allusions in it. It had firearms. It was just like everyone's all controversial.

• 2:03:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I do wonder about that. Oh, cause look, I agree with you where if you know the story, you're like, oh, hell yeah, that's a good idea. And I would wear, totally wear the shirt. Doesn't mean I smoke weed all the time or whatever, you know, whatever.

• 2:03:47Jocko Willink?

  Or shoot stoners for you.

• 2:03:49Speaker 02

  Whatever, whatever the objections may be.

• 2:03:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  So I think this is one of those ones as well. Like, don't fuck it up. That story is like, and I actually listened to that one. Cause I have it like on an excerpt, but I'm trying to.

• 2:04:02Jocko Willink?

  What? Don't fuck it up?

• 2:04:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, that, that whole story.

• 2:04:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:06Speaker 02

  Like with stoner and stuff?

• 2:04:07Jocko Willink?

  With stoner.

• 2:04:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I'm like, whoa, that's freaking sick. And I, and I didn't make it all loud and dumb. You can just like.

• 2:04:13Jocko Willink?

  Do you know that story?

• 2:04:14JP Dinnell?

  Which one?

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  So we, you know how we have like the board with everyone's little picture on it? Uh, in the task unit space?

• 2:04:20JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:21Jocko Willink?

  And so when Stoner took over the task unit.

• 2:04:25JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:25Jocko Willink?

  And then he put all these guys, the new guys that were in and, you know, reassembled the, the chain of command and everything. And he took my picture and he just elevated it above his picture. And then he put a little, like a little voice or a little, what's it called? A little cartoon thing and it just said, don't fuck it up.

• 2:04:43JP Dinnell?

  Nice.

• 2:04:44Jocko Willink?

  Then I was telling him.

• 2:04:46JP Dinnell?

  You know, they had me in a different task unit originally when we came back from Ramadi.

• 2:04:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they split everybody.

• 2:04:51JP Dinnell?

  Not working for Seth.

• 2:04:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:53JP Dinnell?

  And I went into the Massachusetts office. This is like right away. And I was like, saw it up there. And I was like,

• 2:04:57Jocko Willink?

  Just moved it.

• 2:04:58JP Dinnell?

  I literally moved it into like working back for him again. And then I ended up really going to Buzz and the trade it because of surgery and everything. Yeah, the shirt locker is awesome. My, my father in law, Jeff, who listens to this podcast, he shares it with everybody he works with and which is awesome. He, I love like Amanda and I will get a text message from my father in law, my mother in law Debbie. And we're in this little group text and every, every time he gets his new shirt, it's him wearing the new shirt, smiling. And we get the picture. It's awesome. He just.

• 2:05:31Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully he sends you this latest one and doesn't say, hey, you know,

• 2:05:35JP Dinnell?

  I'm offended.

• 2:05:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm offended by Echo Charles's ideas.

• 2:05:40JP Dinnell?

  But my in laws, that ain't gonna happen.

• 2:05:42Speaker 02

  But that story that even like how you, and there's a lot more to that story too. You told me anyway, that you're like, and then you'll even still kind of use that saying where it's a, it's kind of like when you see someone building up maybe too much confidence. And you'll be like, oh no, you're gonna do great. You're gonna do great. Just don't fuck it up.

• 2:05:59Speaker 02

  There's a lot to that. And it was good. I thought.

• 2:06:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  But if no one knows that they're like, oh, what? I'm not gonna wear a shirt with swear words. This is dumb. This is not offensive, but necessarily like, I don't want to represent that kind of a thing. And I get that. So maybe it might be worth like having some little card with an explanation.

• 2:06:15JP Dinnell?

  That would be actually pretty cool where a card with a QR code on it, they can scan it, it has like a video explaining it. It sends them to the, the podcast that has the explanation. I don't know.

• 2:06:25Jocko Willink?

  It's good. It's good advice.

• 2:06:26JP Dinnell?

  It is good advice.

• 2:06:28Jocko Willink?

  All right. So there you go.

• 2:06:29Speaker 02

  I guess, sure. Yeah. Look, look into that one. Jocko store.

• 2:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to, uh, uh, this podcast and the other podcasts that we do, uh, Jocko Underground, Jocko Underground.com. Check that out. We do, we do about a podcast a week there with podcast adjacent material.

• 2:06:49Jocko Willink?

  Kind of directed at your individual life, but we answer a bunch of questions on there too.

• 2:06:54Speaker 02

  It's life advice on that one. That one's the kind where like, because we release it every Monday or Sunday, Monday, like at midnight in the morning, right? So like if you got go to work on Monday, the thing is uploaded, good to go. Oh yeah. You listen to it on the way to work or something like this. Bruh, life advice all day for the week.

• 2:07:11Jocko Willink?

  There you go. YouTube, subscribe to YouTube channel, subscribe to Origin USA YouTube channel, subscribe to Jocko Fuel YouTube channel, go to Psychological Warfare, get flipsidecanvas.com from Dakota Meyer. I written a bunch of books, get them. Get them for your kids. Best kids book ever. Is it, am I allowed to say that? Can I make that kind of judgment? I just did. I would say yes.

• 2:07:32Speaker 02

  I'm allowing you to, I'm allowing it.

• 2:07:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's just, that's the way. Please get those books to the kids. You know, honestly, they are, they are so helpful to so many kids. Please do it. Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. If you want JP to come and work with your company, if you want me to come and work with your company, if you want one of us on the team at Echelon Front to come and work with your company, go to echelonfront.com and you can see what you can get. You can also come to one of our live events. I think next thing we have is the battlefield at Little Big Horn, August 8th through the 10th. We got some slots open if you want to come.

• 2:08:15Jocko Willink?

  It's powerful to go up there to secure those lessons, to actually understand what happened on that battlefield. There's so many mistakes that were made and you can learn from them. I can't wait for that. I'm going to be there. Okay, awesome. Yeah. And then, yeah. Yeah, that thing is powerful. You can also see the good things that happened. Yeah. Because there was a lot of good moves, good tactical moves that were made, mostly by the Native American warriors. So come and check that out. FTX.

• 2:08:47JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:47Jocko Willink?

  You run the FTX. What's your next FTX?

• 2:08:48JP Dinnell?

  We have one day. Individual FTX is coming up, which is awesome. We sold out of the two day ones. They were just a couple of weeks ago. Actually, geez. Yeah, a month ago. Anyways, um, so we have one day FTXs. It's going to be in the Dallas Fort Worth area. Monday, September 18th, Wednesday, September 20th, and Friday, September 22nd. So it's just one day. It helps with people that can't commit to two full days. You know, so you have a day of travel, two full days, you know, and then maybe a day of travel on the back end. Depending on, you know, so that's a lot of people couldn't commit to that price point. And so it's, the price point is very comparable to a muster. And, uh, we decided that we would try out one day FTXs to allow people to come experience an FTX.

• 2:09:32JP Dinnell?

  Uh, you know, we actually have a handful of our, um, clients that have been entertaining FTXs that are actually coming out to it. That couldn't ever commit to a full two day. And they're like, oh, I can go to one day FTX for sure. And so somebody could travel in the night before. Get a full day of training. Now depending on where they live, they could possibly get a flight out that same night. Probably, most likely, actually, actually, most likely out of Dallas Fort Worth. Back wherever they need to be. And so it's a, it's a, it's a small time commitment where you're getting the full impact of the field training exercises that we run, because most of the time when we do it with a, with a client. It's just one day of field training exercise. Leading up to the training, they're going to have videos through Extreme Auto Academy platform that they can take.

• 2:10:16JP Dinnell?

  That will give them all of the leadership principles that we teach ahead of time. And then that way, when we show up to training, you hit the ground running, full day of training. And then you can get back to your work, get back to your team, your family. So those are coming up. Um, you know, they go to our website, they can check out, get registered. I mean, The battlefield, the FTX, the council, the musters, they all sell out. These are going to sell out, especially with the one day price point option. And if you've gone to a muster and you're like, hey, what's the next step? Come to an FTX, come to a battlefield. Like that is the absolute next step for sure.

• 2:10:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the FTX is, if you don't know what they are, you go out in the field. We have these high speed laser weapons. We train you on the basic tactics, but it is what? It's the tool, it's the, it's the medium that we used to transform leaders in the SEAL teams. Put them in these high stress, confusing, complicated leadership scenarios. Where you have to learn to lead, you have to learn to follow, you have to learn to step up. You have to learn to detach from your emotions, you have to learn to cover move, keep things simple, prioritize next. You have to learn those things and when you don't do them, that leaves a mark.

• 2:11:25JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:27Jocko Willink?

  It leaves a mark, it leaves an impact on your brain. And it's a powerful way to learn. So come and check those things out. Echelonfront.com and you just mentioned the, the Extreme Ownership Academy, extremeownership.com. This, the mission, our mission is to give this information to as many people as possible. And one of the ways that we figured out to do that was by having online courses. So go to extremeownership.com, you can take all kinds of classes about these principles. And this is like having magic. It's like having magic. It's like being able to perform magic tricks to solve problems. It's like jujitsu.

• 2:12:11Jocko Willink?

  Like, it's like if you are playing basketball and, and you're Michael Jordan. And you're playing one-on-one against a, a 12-year-old. You're slamming dunks, right? Cause you learn how to interact with other people, you learn to lead. Learn how to adjust your life and make it better. So extremeownership.com and then if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. She helps out so many people.

• 2:12:52Jocko Willink?

  And it's just an incredible woman. Um, and then on top of that, we've got heroes and horses dot org. That's Micah Fink. Uh, I actually just talked to Micah Fink. So I got, I got the report from the field. I'm like, oh, Micah, what you doing? He's like, oh, I'm driving back from Wyoming. I just got done branding 1300 cows. And before that, I was in South Dakota, delivering 400 chickens to a reservation where they were out of food. What have you been up to, Jocko?

• 2:13:32Jocko Willink?

  He says, hey, you might want to come try that jujitsu stuff out on cows. Yeah. See how well it works. I was like, Roger. So that's what Micah Fink does. Actually, he just went to the field too. He just took his class out. They take classes out. They take, they take veterans, first responders up into the wilderness. So they can get lost and they can get found. Heroes and horses.org. If you want to connect with us on the interwebs, JP is at JP Dino.

• 2:14:03Jocko Willink?

  Two N's, two L's. Echo is at Echo Charles. I'm at Jocko. Just watch out for the algorithm. That's a big sabotage machine. That's what it is. Uh, JP, thanks for coming, as always. Appreciate it. It's been awesome. Heck, yeah. Um, thanks to all the military personnel are out there around the world right now. Thank you for putting our safety above your own.

• 2:14:28Jocko Willink?

  And also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, all first responders. Thanks to you as well. You put our safety above your own.

• 2:14:41Jocko Willink?

  We're indebted to you for it. And to everyone else out there.

• 2:14:50Jocko Willink?

  Just watch out. Watch out.

• 2:14:54Jocko Willink?

  Because there can be sabotage happening and sabotage can be tough to spot.

• 2:15:01Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of the ultimate form of the indirect attack. Very hard to identify, but it can be happening and it can take you down. And it's hardest to identify.

• 2:15:13Jocko Willink?

  When the saboteur.

• 2:15:16Jocko Willink?

  Is you.

• 2:15:18Jocko Willink?

  When it's you. That's talking too much, when it's you that's bringing up irrelevant issues, when it's you that are haggling over details that don't matter. When it's you that are holding unnecessary meetings, making careless mistakes, working too slow, spreading rumors, not sharing skills, when it's you.

• 2:15:41Jocko Willink?

  That are acting stupid.

• 2:15:44Jocko Willink?

  Don't be the saboteur. Do not allow that, don't be a quizzling.

• 2:15:52Jocko Willink?

  A traitor, a betrayer of the cause, no, be loyal, be competent, be capable, be a leader. And until next time, this is JP and Echo and Jocko. Out.