363: The Principle Weapon Is The Mind. Read, Study, Learn, with JD Baker.

JD Baker with OMNA International. OMNA International provides support services for leaders with vision and good moral character. If you are such a leader, we invite you to explore our website to learn what we can offer your organization. Our specialty is in designing and delivering experiential leadership development events -- especially leadership and decision-making staff rides https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hj02A1sGkZKAbA29BAJlcS1x6vh_3X2P/view. We thank you for your interest, and hope that we can be of service to you and the organization you lead. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 363 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. All commanders should consider the professional development of their subordinates a principal responsibility of command. Commanders should foster a personal, personal teacher-student relationship with their subordinates. Commanders are expected to conduct a continuing professional education program for their subordinates, which includes developing military judgment and decision-making and teaches general professional subjects and specific technical subjects pertinent to occupational specialties.

• 0:40Jocko Willink?

  Useful tools for general professional development include supervised reading programs, map exercises, war games, battle studies, and terrain studies.

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  Commanders should see the development of their subordinates as a direct reflection of themselves. Finally, every Marine has a basic responsibility to study the profession of arms on his own.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  A leader without either interest in or knowledge of the history, the theory of warfare, and the intellectual content of his profession is a leader in appearance only.

• 1:27Jocko Willink?

  Self-study in the art and science of war is at least equal in importance and should receive equal time to maintaining physical condition. This is particularly true among officers. After all, an officer's principal weapon is his mind.

• 1:51Jocko Willink?

  And that right there, this is a little excerpt from the Fleet Marine Force Manual 1, Warfighting. A book that was commissioned by General Al Gray, the 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps, and one of the most iconic Commandants of the Marine Corps. It's one of the first manuals that we covered on this podcast. And what that excerpt describes is an approach that I have tried to take to study war, to study history, the theory of war, the history of war, the profession of war. And I've met some folks along the way who are also enthralled by the study of history

• 2:35Jocko Willink?

  and warfare. And one of the most knowledgeable that I've met is here with us tonight. His name is J D, Judd J D Baker. He served in the Marine Corps for 21 years as an infantryman, a sniper, drill instructor, senior enlisted advisor in a bunch of different billets, deployed to war zones around the world. And he's here with us tonight to share his experiences and lessons learned with us. J D, thanks for coming by, man.

• 3:07JD Baker?

  Thanks for having me on.

• 3:08Jocko Willink?

  Uh, let's get into it, man. You've got so much knowledge that I want to squeeze out of you. And we'll get to the end where we'll talk about how I plan to squeeze knowledge out of you. I got a whole, I got a whole campaign plan on how to do that. But let's, let's talk about you, where you came from, how you grew up. So when were you born?

• 3:27JD Baker?

  Uh, 69, March 8th, 1969.

• 3:31Jocko Willink?

  And, and where?

• 3:32JD Baker?

  Uh, Huntington, West Virginia, uh, right on the Ohio River, uh, down on the southeastern side. So you could basically swim to Ohio and walk to Kentucky.

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  That's a pretty good triathlon right there, huh?

• 3:44JD Baker?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:45Jocko Willink?

  The three state triathlon. So what's your, what's your mom and dad do?

• 3:48JD Baker?

  Uh, my mom was a stay at home. Uh, my dad, uh, he worked for a nickel plant, uh, big industrial kind of area down there on the river. Uh, you know, West Virginia, coal, nickel, uh, all that kind of stuff. And, uh, my dad hated his job. Uh, you know, he had to suit and tie, go into work every day, same, uh, kind of deal and. All he wanted to do was scout Major League Baseball. So he put applications out all over the place, got picked up by the Pittsburgh Pirates and got to live out the rest of his life scouting baseball.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  Did he, did he quit his job at the nickel plant?

• 4:25JD Baker?

  He just put in enough time to, to get retirement, like as soon as like early retirement. So it's kind of like in the military, you just do the 20 years.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  What is he putting on his application to become a major league scout? I mean, don't you have to spend like time looking at high schools, then maybe you get to community college, then you go to a regular college, then you get to go to be a scout for the Pittsburgh Pirates? That's a big jump out of the gate, isn't it?

• 4:49JD Baker?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a pretty big jump. My dad played college ball at Marshall. So he played a little bit of college ball and, you know, in our household, if it wasn't white with little red, you know, stitches on it, my dad didn't give two shits about it. So basically we were raised in a dugout, which was super cool for kids, growing up with me and my older brother. So it was, it was strictly baseball. He coached baseball, never like coached us while we were playing little league. My dad coached Babe Ruth. He coached some of the travel teams, stuff like that.

• 5:23Jocko Willink?

  Was he smart enough to realize that he shouldn't coach you?

• 5:27JD Baker?

  He didn't like little kids.

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 5:31JD Baker?

  You know what I mean? Like he didn't want to be the one out there like, you know, clapping for little Johnny and Suzie telling them they're doing a great job. You know what I mean? He wanted like to elevate, you know, kids that are, you know, 13 and above, they kind of know that they, they know the basics of the game.

• 5:48Jocko Willink?

  Was he doing like weird subliminal stuff to you when you were little to like, was he like throwing the apple to you? Like, oh, hey, hey, Judd, you want an apple? Like toss it to you real quick. We got to catch it to work on your hand ice skills. I feel like I did that with my kids. I was doing all this weird kind of like things.

• 6:04JD Baker?

  Well, the funny thing is, is like both myself and my brother, we, we throw right, but we bat left. And I don't remember ever.

• 6:16JD Baker?

  Like it's kind of like learning to swim. Like I don't remember when I learned to swim. And I don't remember learning how to swing a bat, but both my brother and I both bat left handed. Cause in baseball, you have an advantage. You're already facing first when you get done swinging. So you've got to drop. You can get to first base faster. So it was like.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  Kind of thing right there. I bet your dad was like, no, no, no, you need to stand over here, buddy. Stand over here.

• 6:43JD Baker?

  Right. Uh, so yeah, it was all that with baseball. Uh, and of course as a kid, we, we loved the game. Um, you know, we played other sports as well, but baseball was.

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  What other sports did you play?

• 6:55JD Baker?

  Uh, we played soccer. We played basketball. Uh, we'd, you know, play a little bit of football, but not as much. It was mainly, it was baseball.

• 7:02Jocko Willink?

  Now, now you played the other sports all the way through high school? Or at some point did we focus and just go like, it's baseball, baseball and baseball?

• 7:11JD Baker?

  It was pretty much like, uh, you know, soccer was mainly for the running aspect to be prepared for baseball season. Like everything came off of baseball. Uh, you know, basketball, uh, my brother wrestled, uh, cause he wasn't coordinated enough to play basketball. Um, so, uh, he wrestled, uh, you know, I played basketball, loved the game.

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  Just a little thing here for, for the wrestlers out there. I gotta say this Jeremy Stevens, you know, he's a MMA fighter. And a great dude, but he wrestled in Iowa, you know, in high school and stuff. And, and one of their insults, they would say, if someone came into, if they wrestled against a guy or someone that was in the wrestling room, they'd be like, oh, how was that guy? He said, oh, he felt like a basketball player. Meaning just like weak. So when you say, I was gonna throw that out there for the wrestlers. Cause I can't let it go unchecked that you're like too not coordinated enough to play basketball. So we wrestled and said, so I gotta give some props to my wrestlers out there.

• 8:10JD Baker?

  Yeah, my brother on the wrestling team, you know, of course, my older brother and of course his wrestling friends would all come over to the house and want to, you know, put the basketball player into a pretzel in the middle of the family room on a daily basis. The only thing I liked about it was when we sat at the dinner table, you know, I didn't have to cut weight.

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:32JD Baker?

  And my brother is over there, just like lettuce, just shaking the water off. And I've got like a big thing of pasta and just, you know, just wolfing it down. So I always felt bad, you know, for my brother in those aspects. But, you know, wrestling was was huge in West Virginia, you know, at Huntington High where we went to school, Coach Archer, legendary All-American wrestler coming out of there. We had some other Ken Zepolato guys, you know, wrestle Pan Am game. I mean, wrestling was huge. So it was, it was, it was a real big deal. But I was just thankful enough that that I didn't have to like cut weight and, you know, and the wrestling practices were just brutal.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  Brutal.

• 9:16JD Baker?

  My brother would come back. I mean, basketball practice, he'd go shoot some hoop, man, play a little one on one. You know what I mean? It was like nothing demanding. You know what I mean? You wear a little, you know, back then in the seventies, those, you know, tube socks all the way up, little cute shorts, man.

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  Shorts.

• 9:31JD Baker?

  Yeah, little short shorts, put on a tank top, man.

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 9:33JD Baker?

  Yeah. You know, watch Larry Bird, Magic Johnson kind of stuff. But yeah, you played basketball. So, yeah, I always, yeah, the wrestlers, that was, that was next level.

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  So did you, so did you, did you play three sports in high school then? Or did you at some point just play baseball?

• 9:50JD Baker?

  Yeah, it ended up just being baseball.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  Your dad's plan came together.

• 9:54JD Baker?

  Yeah. And the others-

• 9:55Jocko Willink?

  What position did you play?

• 9:56JD Baker?

  I was a pitcher.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  How tall are you?

• 9:58JD Baker?

  Six foot three.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  I went and talked to the Padres a few years ago. And, you know, I don't really follow baseball super close. When I was growing up, it seemed like everyone that played baseball was like a little Dominican dude or a little Puerto Rican dude, you know, like little guys. And I went and talked to the Padres. Every one of those guys was a freaking giant human. Giant. And I was like, oh, I guess it's a huge advantage. I guess it's coming back now where they got some smaller players, but it's a huge advantage, right? To be a pitcher and be 6'3".

• 10:30JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah. And, you know, I started out as a kid, I think I was eight years old for my birthday. You know, we didn't make a big deal out of birthdays. We'd just, you know, run into mom and dad's room on your birthday and they'd have a present for you. And mine was a catcher's mitt. Cause they thought, you know, my dad was like, okay, he's going to be the short one. So he'll be the catcher. You know what I mean? My older brother, Tommy, he's going to be the tall one. So he'll be the pitcher. My dad was a pitcher. He's six foot three. Uh, you know, he was a big guy. I mean, not like big unit kind of guy, that big. Uh, you know, six, seven, six, nine. But, um, then at like 10 years old, my brother quit growing and, and I kept growing. So then we, we reversed. We

• 11:12JD Baker?

  just traded mitts. So then my brother became a catcher, which I was thankful for. Cause again, as you can kind of see with like, you know, the basketball aspect, a catcher is a, that's a brutal, brutal job. Uh, you know, I mean, but you control the field. You're the leader. Uh, you're the only one that can see all eight players at one time. But, you know, uh, being a catcher, just, you know, hot, sweaty, behind the plate, you're engaged in every play out there. Uh, and my brother was really good. My brother was a really good baseball player, uh, as a catcher. Um, and then for me being a pitcher, you're, you're kind of like the, you know, like a basketball player compared

• 11:53JD Baker?

  to a wrestler. You're the, you know, you gotta take care of the pitcher and you know what I mean? He's, you know, he's special, uh, kind of aspect of it. So I, I didn't get beat up as much, uh, as my brother did.

• 12:06Jocko Willink?

  And how about school? Are you doing all right in school as far as like grades and everything? Do you care? Is it like no big deal? Are you getting into trouble? What's going on with your, just your youth?

• 12:14JD Baker?

  Yeah. Uh, school, uh, pretty much, uh, yeah, terrible. Uh, just, just terrible.

• 12:22JD Baker?

  The coolest thing in school was in the first grade. My first grade teacher was Mrs. Goheen. And Miss Goheen, cool thing about it is I'm friends with her on Facebook even still today, which is like super cool with social media to be friends with Miss Goheen. And she made us do a book report. And probably the biggest impact she had on me was she let you pick whatever book. She didn't like assign a book to make us read something specific. You got to pick whatever you wanted. Me, I did my first book report on Babe Ruth with the New York Yankees. Obviously, we had a lot of baseball books in the house, just laying around everywhere.

• 13:04JD Baker?

  So she allowed me to write my first book report and then just to have a love of reading. It doesn't matter what you read, just read. So after that, I always enjoyed reading as a kid, but you know, I loved gym class. I liked recess. I liked to play. You know what I mean? Whatever the game is, it doesn't matter. I enjoyed playing a game. And my dad was always pretty, you know, he was pretty liberal with the aspects of, you know, boys will be boys kind of aspect, but my dad was a mathematician. So he loved math. So, and I'm the complete opposite. I don't like math. I'd rather the liberal arts, the history, the reading, the books and stuff.

• 13:49JD Baker?

  So, you know, we kept enough to play sports. So you got to have a 2.0 to play ball. So as long as you were above a 2.0, my dad was like, well, I'm good with that. You know what I mean? It's, you know, I wasn't in honor society or holding candles, having photos taken in school. But I had a lot of fun, great, great childhood.

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  You got an A in recess, lunch, gym class, and fun.

• 14:14JD Baker?

  Yeah, yeah. I knocked it out the park in all those areas. And then, you know, where, where I grew up, probably another big aspect of my life was at eight years old, my dad sent me to camp. Uh, now this is a camp. It's called Camp Wallawatula and it's in Millboro Springs, Virginia, Bath County on the Calpasti River. My dad went to this camp and it's kinda like Hogwarts, you know, like the Harry Potter stuff where they would take us to the train station in Huntington. You'd have your, your big, big luggage and you'd get on a train and we would take the train to Clifton Forge, Virginia and the counselors would pick us

• 14:59JD Baker?

  up from the train, throw all of our luggage in there and take us out to Camp Wallawatula on the Calpasti River for seven weeks, living in tents. And it was like, I loved camp. Uh, hunt, you know, you'd shot 22 rifles, you shot bow and arrow, canoeing, swimming, horsebacking, you know, orienteering, uh, leaf identifications, knot tying, all these kinda things. And it was, you know, Camp Wallawatula, uh, and you know, I had to beg my parents to go at eight years old because normally you had to go when you were nine, but my older brother went. And when we went to go pick up my brother and I got to see this camp, I was like, oh,

• 15:40JD Baker?

  this is, this is it. Like, so we would spend seven weeks every summer on the Calpasti River at, at camp, uh, which had a huge effect, uh, on, on the rest of my life. I mean, you know, going into the Marine Corps was like going to camp. You know what I mean? I mean, you join the infantry, go to camp, you know, you got activities.

• 16:01Jocko Willink?

  So you did that every year for, like until you were how old?

• 16:05JD Baker?

  Uh, till I was 14, uh, and then Don Sutton, the family that owned the camp that had, like I said, my dad went to that camp. Uh, they, he had two sons and nobody wanted to, to take the camp over. So they basically shut the camp down, but every June, uh, we have a reunion, uh, with all the guys at Camp Wallawatula. The, the sad thing is, is like, I'm one of the youngest, uh, of the, of the reunion guys. And we go back every June. Uh, but being at camp with, uh, the counselors and, you know, they had a, a, a big effect on me as a kid, growing up of like, I mean, you sat at tables, they taught

• 16:46JD Baker?

  you, you know, manners, how to eat, you know, how to take care of yourself, basically how to be a Virginian. And every, at the three, at the three week mark, they would take us into Lexington, Virginia. You know, VMI is there and then they've got the Robert E. Lee tomb is there. So we would, you know, go visit Robert E. Lee. So like at the first time at eight years old, yeah, I remember seeing the Robert E. Lee, you know, Stonewall Jackson, Virginia, all that, Washington. Yeah. Virginia in history is huge. And at camp, you know, we had, you know, mandatory like nap time that, you know, after lunch you'd come back and it was like

• 17:27JD Baker?

  reading, reading, laying a rack kind of an event. So, you know, you could bring a book, you could write letters home. The letter writing really didn't go very well. I think my mom still has the first letter I wrote and it was like, Dear Mom and Dad, having a good Judd. And that was it. You know what I mean? And, uh, but yeah, it, uh, that, that aspect of, of growing up and seeing mentorship of like the counselors that came into the camp and they mentored us at, you know, at a very early age and seeing kind of like what right looked like for growing into becoming a man was a, was a huge, huge aspect.

• 18:05Jocko Willink?

  That was an all boy camp, um?

• 18:06JD Baker?

  All boys. Yep. Uh, there was a all girls camp right down the river called Camp Mount Shenandoah, still exists today. Uh, and, you know, we would do like a dance with them and stuff. We'd go up river and, and, uh, and, and go there. You know, it was nice to see, you know, young girls in a camp. Uh, so it was, it was fun, but, um, yeah, I mean, the cow pasture river is, is a part of my life. I mean, I've got, when I die, I want to be cremated and my ashes dumped in the cow pasture. Uh, we go every year. I mean, I love the place. My wife and I, Tracy, we were married in the cow pasture river, like standing in the river. Uh, yeah, there's, that's a huge tie to me, uh, is that river and that part of my life.

• 18:51Jocko Willink?

  How far is that river from where you grew up?

• 18:55JD Baker?

  Probably about three and a half hours, three and a half hours, four hours just over the Appalachia. It's on the, on the Virginia, West Virginia border in Bath County, Virginia, up in the mountains up there. Beautiful park.

• 19:10Jocko Willink?

  So were you on track to like go to college and play baseball? Were you good enough? Were you like, what was going on with that?

• 19:18JD Baker?

  Well, you know, the good thing is I had my older brother and so I could kind of like watch what he did and see his mistakes and try not to repeat, you know, because you gotta go home and deal with my dad. So my brother went to WVU, you know what I mean? He was gonna, gonna try the college thing and my brother was a lot, my brother was a lot smarter than I was and, but still he couldn't figure out that you have to go to class, that like get a grade.

• 19:48Jocko Willink?

  Did he get recruited for baseball? Was he playing baseball there?

• 19:51JD Baker?

  No, no, no.

• 19:52Jocko Willink?

  So he just went?

• 19:53JD Baker?

  Yeah, he was just, you know, going to college.

• 19:55Jocko Willink?

  So despite the efforts of your dad to turn you guys into baseball players that could play in college, he didn't, he didn't play in college?

• 20:04JD Baker?

  No. And if, with my dad's aspect of, he more or less looked at it on the aspects of try to go straight farm league. Like, you know, I would say that my dad, he kind of looked at it like you can always go to college. You could be 60 years old, man, you can go to college. You get one shot to play pro ball. And, you know what I mean? And you try to get in, you know, if you can get minor league kind of aspects. He always worried about like a college coach, you know what I mean? Of their pedigree. I mean, they can, they can ruin, they can ruin a guy. Cause in college, college coach, he's there to win. He's gonna throw you, he's gonna work you as much as possible because that's his

• 20:49JD Baker?

  job. And, you know, college baseball isn't necessarily is like a big thing like college football. I mean, for, to play pro football, you gotta go to college, you gotta play college ball. You're not gonna go direct to where like baseball is more of a direct, you know, the Derek Jeters, the Griffys, those kind of guys. You don't go to college, you go straight to the minor leagues and then you work your way through the minors. So that was more of, I would say my dad's kind of take on things was.

• 21:17Jocko Willink?

  But your brother decided to go to college.

• 21:19JD Baker?

  Yeah, he was gonna go to college. Again, my brother was, he was good in school. My brother was a lot smarter than I was. He paid attention a lot more than than I did. So he went to WVU, but like I said, he didn't go to class much. College football games were great on Saturday kind of thing. I'd go up and hang out with my brother. And then he ended up, you know, not making the grades and they're like, yeah, you can't stay at school here anymore. So my brother, he joined the Air Force. He's like, yep, well, you know, dad's like, yep, not, not, you don't want to hang out in the house here. Let's, let's come back. So my brother joined the Air Force and, and when he joined the Air Force, he was a, worked on C-130s,

• 22:03JD Baker?

  crew chief stuff with C-130s. He was out in Diaz, Texas. I mean, it seemed like a pretty good gig for, for what he was doing. And then for me, you know, when I was 17, I played on a couple of travel teams. And we were playing in Cincinnati and, you know, regardless of, of my dad, I mean, I love my dad to death. But, you know, his nickname, between like me and my brother, and then we called him the dick.

• 22:34JD Baker?

  I love him to death, but I mean, you know, all my friends were like, dude, it must be so cool having like, you know, because my dad's nickname was T-Bone. So they were like, dude, it's like so cool. Like, you know, your dad T-Bone. And because everybody thought my dad was great. You know what I mean? Like he was at all the games, you know, whether it was football, basketball, you name it. I mean,

• 22:51Jocko Willink?

  Why did they call him T-Bone?

• 22:52JD Baker?

  Just because his name, Tom Baker, and he was, you know, six foot three, you know, 155 pounds. He looked like just a T-Bone coming off of a steak. And so they called him T-Bone and everybody thought it was like the coolest thing. Well, it's like, well, dude, you didn't live with my dad. Like, of course he's cool outside of the house. But step into the house and live with this guy. I mean, and again, it was still, it was, it was great. But, you know, my dad was, I mean, he was, he was funny, humorous, you know, but yeah, I loved him to death. But he, we, we came back from playing in Cincinnati, Ohio, and, you know, I was thrown in a game.

• 23:32JD Baker?

  You know, my dad and I kind of got into it a little bit at the game and I was like, I'm done. You know what I mean? I'm done. I came back, went straight, I was 17, went to the Marine Corps recruiting office.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  How'd you, how'd you hear about the Marine Corps?

• 23:48JD Baker?

  I had a buddy of mine, uh, actually I had quite a few friends of mine of our class. It was a lot that went in the Marine Corps. Rick Shank was one of them. His dad was a Korean Vietnam vet. He was an Army Ranger guy. But you know, uh, there was a lot of us that had looked at the military, uh, in a, in a, in a blue collar town like Huntington, uh, it's a way out, uh, you know what I mean? So you get a lot of folks that, that join the, the military to get out. You know what I mean? Like there's something bigger out there. And it, and again, like I said, I loved camp and you know, and I don't have to like

• 24:25Jocko Willink?

  Those recruiters, man, they were licking their chops when you showed up. They're like, oh, you like camp? We got camp for you, son.

• 24:32JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Jocko Willink?

  It's called boot camp. You're gonna love it.

• 24:34JD Baker?

  Yeah. And you know, and they've got activities. They got tents. They give you all this free stuff. You get a gun.

• 24:43JD Baker?

  You know, so yeah, I mean, I was, and I was like, oh yeah, when I, when I came in there, I was like, you know, telling the recruiter, I was like, hey, I've got to be infantry. And you know, and he's, you know, giving us the look like, oh, that's going to be a difficult one to get. You know what I mean? Like, cause we didn't really know a lot and you know, and of course I can get you, you know, guaranteed, you know, infantry, you know what I mean? If you score high enough. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking like, this guy's the heat. Like he's hooking us up. Until I go to boot camp, you know what I mean? And, and but then I'm 17, so I gotta get a signature.

• 25:15Jocko Willink?

  So, so you're 17, you're 17, are you done with high school?

• 25:19JD Baker?

  No, no, no. I still have my senior year to go. So I was like delayed entry.

• 25:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 25:23JD Baker?

  But I had to get my mom to sign.

• 25:24Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh. And what mama say?

• 25:26JD Baker?

  Mom was all about it.

• 25:27Jocko Willink?

  She's down for the cause.

• 25:29JD Baker?

  Just, yeah.

• 25:30Jocko Willink?

  Give me that paper. Let me get my signature out there.

• 25:33JD Baker?

  Yeah. Yeah. Why even waste your time?

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 25:37JD Baker?

  Which was, you know, when you look back at like, at life of like a decision that you made, that was probably the smartest decision I ever made. Cause I would have been a shit show.

• 25:48Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 25:48JD Baker?

  Well.

• 25:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm right there with you. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks to my recruiter. I can't, I don't even remember anything about my recruiter, but I just wasn't. Like to thank him, even though he probably screwed me over. He's like, oh yeah, you're gonna go in the SEAL team? Sure, buddy. Yeah, you look, oh yeah, you'll be, you'll be, you're gonna make a great SEAL, right? That's such bullshit. Like, there's no way any recruiter knows if anyone has the remotest chance to make it. Oh, yeah. SEAL teams, you seem like the kind of guy that's gonna do great there. Like, yep, just sign this piece of paper. Sounds great. You know, recruiter, sir. So those guys are definitely hooking you up. But, like, that's the same with me. That the greatest thing, probably like you said, the single pivot point of the trajectory of my life was signing that piece of paper and saying, yep, I'm in.

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  And I remember I signed up for six years. It was six years to get a, to get a SEAL, to get a BUDS contract where you go to BUDS. Actually, all it was, actually, all it was, was you sign up for six years and that gives you a chance to take the screening test to possibly pass, to possibly go to BUDS. That's what it was. And, and you know, you're thinking you're 18 years old, like six years is a long, that's one third of your life. And I remember just thinking, yeah, well, whatever. Rock and roll. Let's do this. But definitely a pivot point.

• 27:01JD Baker?

  Huh, that's interesting, cuz uh, they got me on the sixth year.

• 27:05Jocko Willink?

  But they gave you infantry?

• 27:07JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, guaranteed.

• 27:08Jocko Willink?

  Guaranteed infantry, yeah, guaranteed. I wonder how many bonus points he got for that, that recruiting. So you roll in there, you enlist, now you're in, you're going, you have to go to DEP meetings your whole senior year of high school or something like that?

• 27:23JD Baker?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We kinda like meet on the weekends and, and you know, and go for runs and stuff like that. So basically, you know, my senior year was, I mean, I think I took like four gym classes. You know, cuz I was like, okay, I'm done. Like, this is, this is what I'm gonna do. So why do I need to? And of course,

• 27:41Jocko Willink?

  Did you even play baseball your senior year?

• 27:42JD Baker?

  No, I quit everything. I mean, I, my, my dad was not happy.

• 27:47Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say.

• 27:48JD Baker?

  Yeah, it was uh, But you know, he, he looked at it as, I don't think my dad was like a big fan of, of me making that decision of, of going in the Marines.

• 28:02JD Baker?

  But you know, I mean, when I remember he took me down there to the recruiting office and dropped me off because I shipped like three days after graduation. Like the recruiter was standing at the graduation. So when I walked across and I got the piece of paper, yeah, they got to like take it to make copies.

• 28:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's there.

• 28:20JD Baker?

  Oh, he's there. But yeah.

• 28:21Jocko Willink?

  We get this in the Xerox machine, son.

• 28:23JD Baker?

  Well, the funny thing is there's like six other of my classmates that are just as stupid as me and we're all going to boot camp together.

• 28:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:29JD Baker?

  Which kind of made it fun.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:31JD Baker?

  Yeah. So I had like Ricky Shank and Carrie Nessel are like literally in the same recruit platoon as me.

• 28:37Jocko Willink?

  No kidding.

• 28:38JD Baker?

  Yeah. So it was kind of fun to where when you're seeing the drill instructor kind of, you know, give them a ration and you're over there trying not to laugh, but like what's going on and then they're doing the same thing to you. So it was, it was kind of nice. Like I said, it was kind of like going to camp, you know what I mean? I had some of my friends there that I'd known since, you know, I grew up with them. And, and there was a, you know, so it was, it was cool to have, you know, a couple of guys that I went to school with and ran around with a lot in, in my recruit platoon. But I didn't realize like, and we were all guaranteed infantry, by the way. I mean, you know, they don't make them smart coming out of Huntington, West Virginia. And, and the recruiter is probably just, you know, he's loving it.

• 29:21JD Baker?

  So until we like they're, they're announcing like your military MOS at the end, you know, the senior drill instructor standing up there, he's like, you know, Baker infantry. You know what I mean? He's like guaranteed. Boy, you're some kind of stupid. You know what I mean? But you know, back then, like I didn't really know that, like there was other jobs like in the Marines. Cause I knew like, you know, Navy doc, you know, we get a lot of our stuff from the Navy. You know, I thought like everybody went in the Marine Corps to be infantry. And, you know, and then you got cooks.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  Every Marine or rifleman to you is the facts.

• 29:59JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 29:59Jocko Willink?

  Is it everybody? How was boot camp when you showed up? Was it like a shocker? Were you like, holy shit? Or were you just like, hey, camp, let's do this?

• 30:08JD Baker?

  Yeah, of course, you know, the, the shock and awe of, you know, when they bring in, I went to Paris Island. Uh, when I, I flew out of, out of the Huntington, uh, it's the tri-state airport of what they call it. And that was the first time I had ever been to an airport. And I don't know, you know, the history of Huntington of Marshall University, you might've seen the We Are Marshall, uh, the 1970 plane crash that NCAA history, you know, most fatalities. And that was at that airport. So where I grew up, the, the whole Marshall University and that plane crash, November 14th, 1970, uh, you know, every year in Huntington. I mean, it is a, it's

• 30:53JD Baker?

  a big deal, uh, for that Marshall, Marshall plane crash. I had, you know, kids that I went to school with that, you know, their, their parents were on that plane. Um, you know, it devastated the community in Huntington. And then here I am going to the airport, you know, and, and, uh, and I was like, why, why can't we just like take a bus? It's South Carolina, man. You know what I mean? Like, can we just buy? So it was one of those props that's got like the, the little curtain that the, you know, the pilot like puts luggage on and then he takes the curtain and whips it over there to the side and you know what I mean? And we're, and that almost stopped me from going to boot camp. I mean, I was like, this is ridiculous, man. Why are we flying? And so I

• 31:36JD Baker?

  got down there and then they bring in at night, you know, so you don't really know like where you're going and it's, you know, coming on to Paris Island. And of course you hear all the mystique of Paris Island. And of course you remember Full Metal Jacket, it just came out when you and I were in high school. So of course, you know, that dude's like a stand-up comic. You know what I mean? That movie was hilarious. You know what I mean? And, and I'd probably say that with the, the drill instructors are, they're, they're, they're stand-up comics. I mean, some of the stuff that they do is just, it's Saturday Night Live, but it's like 18 hours of Saturday Night Live a day and, and you're getting the end, the end of the joke.

• 32:16Jocko Willink?

  You're the butt of all the jokes.

• 32:17JD Baker?

  Yeah, you're the butt of all the jokes. Uh, but it was still, it was a, it was, you know, the shock and awe. But then once we kind of got into the rhythm of, of, of boot camp, then. You know, with the drill instructors.

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  What year is this? Is this eighty seven?

• 32:30JD Baker?

  Eighty seven.

• 32:30Jocko Willink?

  Eighty seven.

• 32:31JD Baker?

  Yep, June. So, you know, go to wait until the winter time, make it a little bit more pleasant down there. But, yes, we ended up there in June, graduated in August, you know, three months down there. And then went straight off to Camp Lejeune, went up to Camp Geiger's where the infantry school was at the time and went through, you know, infantry training school, oh, three eleven. You made it.

• 32:57Jocko Willink?

  How?

• 32:59JD Baker?

  Oh, three eleven. You made it.

• 33:02Jocko Willink?

  How's that? How was that infantry school?

• 33:05JD Baker?

  Again, you know, kind of looking back on, I mean, it's, it's, it's so many, like, new Marines coming in, that you don't really like get a lot of that individual education.

• 33:23Jocko Willink?

  How long was the school?

• 33:24JD Baker?

  I think it was like ten weeks, maybe.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  Did you have Vietnam guys teaching you or not really?

• 33:31JD Baker?

  Some of the older, like the E sevens and E eights that were there were Vietnam era guys. But, you know, like the, what you would call like, you know, the troop handlers are more like the corporals and the sergeants kind of. So those guys had, you know, come in in like the early eighties and were there. But the senior folks, yeah, they were, they were Vietnam, Vietnam era guys.

• 33:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you think you were going to war at some point?

• 33:59JD Baker?

  Yeah, no. Yeah, I mean, it never really even like crossed my mind, you know, at the point. You know, when, like, I remember I listened to you, we had like, when you and Dave, when you had Dave Burke on and you were talking about like the Top Gun when like we grew up. I was more of the John Jay Rambo kind of like being John Jay kind of turned me on more than like Tom Cruise.

• 34:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 34:26JD Baker?

  You know, I mean.

• 34:26Jocko Willink?

  I couldn't relate to Tom Cruise.

• 34:28JD Baker?

  Yeah, I wanted like the green, O D, green jacket, wear jeans, boots, get a big knife with like a compass on the top of it. You know what I mean? With matches in it. You know? Yeah, I wanted to be, you know, John Jay. So. You know, uh, those aspects of it, uh, were pretty interesting.

• 34:45Jocko Willink?

  Did you have like a global perspective of the world and think, well, you know, it's the, you know, the, the, the, uh, Cold War is going on, you know, this could kick off. Did you, did you have any thoughts like that?

• 34:59JD Baker?

  Yeah, no.

• 35:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, cause I, you know, I joined in 1990. Now, what changed for me was that the Gulf War was starting, right? So when I came in, it was like, oh, we're going. And I remember watching CNN and CNN is saying, there's going to be something like 30,000 casualties in the first 48 hours on our side. And I was like, oh, bro, we're going. Like, I was thinking, it's on, I'm gonna get some for sure. And then, once that was over, it seemed like, I just seemed like, well, I'm gonna be doing some kind of secret shit's going on, you know? Like, the SEAL teams, come on, we're doing stuff worldwide all the time. There's secret missions going on. I'm obviously going to Vietnam and fighting whatever, John J. Rambo style for that stuff.

• 35:43Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, but going in the Marine Corps in 1987, it's, the world was pretty, pretty peaceful at that time.

• 35:50JD Baker?

  Yeah, you know, in the Marines, uh, we had, uh, one of the, uh, corporals that was there, uh, that was at the infantry school, he was a Beirut guy. Uh, so you know, like back then, like Beirut was like, which was huge for the Marine Corps. Um, you know, that, that incident, uh, and, and so that was kind of, you know, Beirut and then Grenada were pretty much like the only two things. And if you weren't with like a specific one battalion, then everybody else in the Marine Corps, you know, they just had the overseas deployment ribbon with the good conduct. And, and that's it. You know what I mean? There wasn't any like solids hanging out, uh, except for the, you know, the, the Beirut guys.

• 36:31JD Baker?

  Um, and then I would say that, uh, my first, uh, battalion I got sent to was Second Battalion, Eighth Marines, and it was on Camp Geiger. And alls I did was, was put my C-bag on my back and face to the right and we just walked down to the Eighth Marines barracks and it was open squad bay.

• 36:49Jocko Willink?

  That's where, that's where your first assignment was?

• 36:51JD Baker?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was Second Battalion, Eighth Marines. That was on Camp Geiger. It was, uh, Eighth Marine Regiment was on Geiger. Everybody else was on main side, Camp Lejeune, and Geiger was open squad bay. So it was, and a lot of people talk about like being in open squad. I loved open squad. It was camp. I mean, you know, it was more camp. You know what I mean? I got up there, you know, you're in a platoon. You really get the know, like the guys in the platoon because of the open squad bay. I mean, there's no hiding from anybody. It's not like at the end of the day, you go to your barracks room and you shut the door and it's just you and one other guy. And the open squad bay, people can walk through at any time. It's all your stuff's exposed. You get a foot locker and a wall locker and that's it. So you didn't really, you know, like nowadays, like kids move into their rooms and they got TVs.

• 37:36JD Baker?

  They got Xbox. They got all this kind of stuff. You couldn't have that stuff. You know, because you had one TV and the duty NCO controlled what channel it was on. But yeah, so it was, it was, it was pretty cool on those aspects. And then, you know, as soon as I got to Second Battalion, Eighth Marines, my first, um, my first training op was cold weather training up at Bridgeport, California.

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  That's cool.

• 38:01JD Baker?

  Which was banging.

• 38:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 38:03JD Baker?

  Uh, you know, I mean, they got ski lifts up there. We're skiing. Of course, that was the first time like you ski uphill, like with a pack, which that sucked.

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  Not quite as cool.

• 38:12JD Baker?

  Yeah, not as cool. You know what I mean? Like I wanted to go to like Tahoe and do some downhill. And then of course, you know, Marine Corps with our mountaineering skis are low as bitter. So it's like two by four strap with a, you know what I mean? With a boot band wrapped around your Mickey Mouse boots and you're going to head down the hill with a 90 pound ruck on and a rifle hanging off the front of you. Uh, that was the only point that, uh, that I was really excited that I wasn't a machine gunner. You know what I mean? Like skiing with a, with a machine gun. There's a whole nother level.

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  And how long were you at two eight for?

• 38:48JD Baker?

  I was at a two eight for, I stayed from just at the end of 87, right into 89.

• 38:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you did years there. This is your first assignment?

• 38:59JD Baker?

  Yeah. Yeah. This is my first battalion.

• 39:01Jocko Willink?

  What do you do? Did you go on deployment from there?

• 39:03JD Baker?

  Yep. Uh, so we did like the Bridgeport thing. You know, you do like your workup stuff.

• 39:07Jocko Willink?

  But did you do, you did a workup, but did you go like get on a boat and go on deployment to the Med or something like that?

• 39:12JD Baker?

  That, well, we actually did Westpac because, uh, we came in, flew over to Oki. And then my first boat ride was on the USS Fort McHenry.

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 39:22JD Baker?

  Uh, which, you know, as a, as a kid in camp, like I read. Like, I enjoy reading and books on adventure, you know what I mean? And I always thought like, like, when I look at like a Navy ship, it's kind of like being in Huntington, West Virginia, it's a blue collar community afloat. So these are like all the guy, like in the Navy, like they, they got guys that like have jobs, like they do stuff. Diesel mechanic. Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, we're in the Pacific, you know what I mean? And it's just like, you get to see how small you actually are. But, you know, being with the Navy, Marines don't have a job on the boat. You know what I mean?

• 40:04JD Baker?

  We get up, we, our point of place of duty is in the rack. We stand in chow line a lot, you know what I mean? It's like, get done with breakfast, what are you gonna do? Wait for lunch. Wait for lunch, stand in line and sit there with a book. And when the Navy gets pissed off that the Marines are laying around all over their stuff, they call general quarters and we go to the rack and, and you know, and they go to work. But, uh, yeah, I was always intrigued with the Navy, like, you know, and then just the global of travel. Uh, and like a Navy ship captain, uh, always it seemed like a super cool job to have being a, you know, aboard a ship and it's so blue collar. I mean, the guys in the Navy aboard the ships, you know, we floated Gator Navy.

• 40:50JD Baker?

  But they, they were like super great guys. They all had skill sets from, you know, electricians to the laundry, the cooks. I mean, it just, uh, it was, it was like, you know, being in Pittsburgh. Yeah. You know, except everybody doesn't have a mullet, you know what I mean? They got a haircut and it's like you're afloat with a, a blue collar town. And it was, uh, it was super cool. We went to Korea, uh, you know what I mean? So, and that was one of the things that intrigued me about just joining Marines was I was going to get the travel. And get paid like, you know what I mean? I get to go to cool places and you know, so you know, going to Korea, going to Japan, Philippines, you know, those kinds of aspects and I'm getting a paycheck at the same time.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  Are you guys doing exercises there?

• 41:33JD Baker?

  Yeah, you know, like Team Spirit, you know, all those little names that they have for stuff because you know, we're fighting Ivan. So everything's in Ivan. Uh, and you know, we just, we go out, we, we go to the field, we run exercises, we come back and then we get like, you know, like four or five days off. Uh, and in 88, uh, the Olympics were in Seoul, Korea. So that was.

• 41:55Jocko Willink?

  So you were there for that?

• 41:56JD Baker?

  Yeah, like.

• 41:57Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys work security or anything or no?

• 41:59JD Baker?

  No, no. Yeah. Uh, with the Marines stayed down in Pohang, right outside of Pohang and it was called Camp Moonchuck. We called it Mudchuck. Uh, you were still burning shitters there. Uh, I mean, it was primitive, primitive camp.

• 42:16Jocko Willink?

  This is where you guys, when the, when the ship pulled in, that's where you went?

• 42:20JD Baker?

  Yep. Navy would kick us off. Uh, you know what I mean? And then we'd go into, to Camp Mudchuck and, and we'd go into there, but you know, and then they had ranges. We would, you know, do company exercises, battalion exercises, grenade range.

• 42:33Jocko Willink?

  You're a straight rifleman in a platoon.

• 42:34JD Baker?

  Straight rifleman. Just, that's it. Uh, rifleman. Got the best job in the war. I loved it. I mean, it's, I mean, like being a rifleman, you just, you get a rifle.

• 42:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:44JD Baker?

  Uh, it was, it was super, yeah, it was super cool. The guys in a platoon, you know, you got all these different characters just from all over. They just make things like so interesting of just, you know, of hearing the stories and their background, where they grew up. Uh, you know, and, and you know, back then we didn't really intermix a lot with like the platoon commander. You know what I mean? Like our biggest, uh, is usually like your squad leader, cause he controls your life. And then the platoon sergeant is a big role and you know, like the lieutenant, you'd like see him at like formation or something. You know what I mean? Because like you didn't stay in the same, you know, officers are segregated out to, you know, and then you just, what we, you know,

• 43:29JD Baker?

  they're not in cell block, you know what I mean? Of like where we're hanging out, banging it.

• 43:33Jocko Willink?

  Back when the Marines had, didn't you have name tags on their uniforms? It was just like, what's your name? My name is Corporal. That's it. You can call me Marine if you want.

• 43:44JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 43:44Jocko Willink?

  I I rode deploying on ships because I I did a few deployments where I did three deployments on ships with Marines and one with the carrier strike group. But yeah, Marines were just another, I have to tell the story. We, you know, it was a pain to get off the ship. When you pulled in, when you hit the pier, because as soon as they rang the liberty bell, everyone was in line to get out. And it would take like an hour or more to get to get through that line. So we used to ship pulls in, gets pier side. As soon as they call for liberty, we'd go to the gym and get a good workout because the ship's not moving. And there's no one in there because everyone's trying to go on liberty. So this one time we do that, you know, get done, go go work out. Get done, take a shower, put on our liberty clothes. It's been like an hour and a half and we go up to the quarter deck to leave.

• 44:28Jocko Willink?

  And they're carrying a freaking Marine back. It was so wasted. He got wasted in an hour and a half. He was unconscious drunk, bro. That's how hard he was going in the paint. So that's, you know, good times with Marine Corps.

• 44:42JD Baker?

  That's usually every every port call. I mean, somebody's gonna ruin it. Uh, and and, you know, the thing I still always tell the Marine, I mean, it's almost like, uh, being in jail. Like if you go to the first port call and you you're done training in the first hour and a half, and then you get restricted to the boat for six months of restriction. I mean, that's prison.

• 45:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:04JD Baker?

  That's a sentence.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:05JD Baker?

  You know, everybody else is like, you know, hitting it and, you know, but it's, you know, when you, when you, when you keep everybody, you know, caged up down there in cell block and you're crossing the pond. And then, you know, you hit this liberty port and you're like, I mean, you're you're 18, 19 years old. And you're you're legal drinking age everywhere in the world, but here, you know what I mean? And and of course, you know, and but you've been in like training. So, you know, through boot camp and infantry school. So it's not like, and you can't have beer in a barracks because I lived in an open squad bay. So it wasn't like we even had refrigerators. Yeah. So any chance you got.

• 45:42Jocko Willink?

  So you spent like two and a half, three years living in an open bay barracks?

• 45:46JD Baker?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was, uh, loved it. Uh, I mean, we used to like take the wall lockers, those old gray wall and put them up against the walls and, you know, and we would play hardball baseball. Like, cause you couldn't break anything. I mean, it was like, you know, just the antics that went on and you know, the only bad, you know, like back then you could still smoke in the government areas and even on ship. I mean, I can remember being on the boats and just like you'd go into the, to the cell block area where the Marines are down there and there's just like that haze of smoke across the top. But you know, guys just laying around with like Coke can, flicking ashes in it. You know, it was a, it was a different, different world.

• 46:29Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you know you were like, you found your place when you got in the Marine Corps? Were you like, oh, this is, I'm, I'm good. I've got my job forever.

• 46:36JD Baker?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was like, I'm going to just go to camp for the rest of my life. Uh, you know, and the funny thing was, is you know, you, uh, you know, when you talked about Al Gray. Uh, so this is 87. Uh, he became the commandant while I was in boot camp. Uh, so I mean, you talk about just a different kind of guy, uh, of, of Al Gray. I mean, he's what a lot of us consider the second enlightenment of the Marine Corps. Uh, and, and this guy is all about education. He was all about, he wants a university. Uh, you know, I mean, I give you probably the, the coolest story of, of Al Gray. I met him in 89. Uh, First

• 47:20JD Baker?

  Battalion, six Marines were looking for folks to do contingency operations in Panama. Noriega was running the joint down there. So I left 2-8, joined 1-6, uh, to be able to go do, uh, contingency operations in Panama. You know what I mean? I thought one Panama, triple canopy jungle. It's gotta be cool. Uh, you know, I mean, and it was just another experience, uh, to be able to. So, um, I, I went to 1-6 and, and I was down there, um, and we stayed at the Rodman Naval Air Force, uh, naval base down there, right on the canal. They had a Howard Air Force Base that's down there. And then the Marines operated out of what was called the, uh, Arahan Tank Farm. Uh, it kinda looked like if you flew

• 48:04JD Baker?

  over top of it, it looked like a golf course cut in the middle of the jungle. Well, it was all like the, um, the tanks for refueling. Coming through the canal and just seeing the Panama Canal was like the greatest engineering like I had ever seen like before because it used to be the Panama Path. You know, they used to just walk across because it was the skinniest point and to watch the locks and the ships come through the canal was just amazing. So, you know, for a 19 year old kid, like seeing the Panama Canal and, you know, reading about it. It was just, it was an amazing experience, but we would go out and you were on like a six day

• 48:45JD Baker?

  rotation and, you know, you did two days in, in the FOB, uh, which was just out in the middle of the jungle. It was the Ford operating base and then you would do two days on patrol and then they'd bring you back for two days in the rear and you were just on this rotation. And there was just a company of Marines down there. Uh, it was the Navy, Navy SEALs were down there. You know, they had Army folks down there. Um, but that was our assignment. And I remember, um, Al Gray, it was the commandant and I was in the FOB and I'm, I'm sitting in the fighting position. We had fighting positions around there. So I was, you know, man in fighting positions, me, me and one other guy and the heat tabs going down and it's getting dark and we kind of can see like this entourage of people milling about

• 49:28JD Baker?

  the area and it just not, not making too much sense of like, like who is this? Well, next thing you know, this older guy, I mean, it's dark out. I really don't know who it is. He hops down in the, in the, in the fighting position with me and he's like, hey, who are you? I was like, oh, Lance Corporal JD Baker. You know what I mean? And he's like, okay, how's things going? I was like, who, who are you? I was like, Al Gray. And name sounds familiar. You know what I mean? Cause like, you know, Al Gray was just, you know, Al Gray Marine. I mean, that's just how he went by. Uh, and he was a prior enlisted. You know infantry, made it all the way to sergeant and they thought he'd make a good officer.

• 50:11JD Baker?

  So they sent him to OCS and made his way up through the ranks from New Jersey. He was a baseball player. So he started asking me, just, I mean, of anything going on, just asked me like, who are my parents? Like what's my dad do? What's my mom do? Kind of like the stuff how you and I, when we first got on, just started asking me those personal questions. And when I told him about my dad with baseball, he was like, you know, he like lit up like, cause he was like, you know, I played semi-pro baseball up in New Jersey. They call, he was called the Pelican Pounder. He was a hell of an- Pelican Pounder? Yeah, he played for the Pelicans. It was a semi-pro team up there. And he literally, years later, I was up at his house in Alexandria and he's showing me the, the

• 50:55JD Baker?

  front page picture. He had the clipping, you know, the Pelican Pounder, Al Gray, which was pretty cool to see. So he was a big baseball guy. And, uh, and for me being an E3, I was the Lance Corporal. At that time with the Commandant of the Marine Corps, I've now had a relationship with that guy for 35 years. Which was just amazing. He was just a different- How did you stay in touch with him after that? He just- Or did you reconnect with him later? He's always been around the Marine Corps. Like, you know, Al Gray has- Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, he's just one of those guys, like, we could be sitting in here doing this podcast and next thing you know, he'd just show up. I mean, cause that's how he was, is like a Commandant.

• 51:36JD Baker?

  He didn't tell people when he was going places. I mean, he just, uh, his career, he was the first one to just take his official photo and camis. Uh, you know, the, the kind of guy that he was, uh, that really had a, had a big effect on, on me was when he was the Commandant of the Marine Corps. On the weekend, he was out front of his Commandant's house at Eighth and I, you know, down in Southeast DC. And he's out doing the gardening at the front of the house. And this elderly, uh, black woman that lived down the street was walking by and, and she was, you know, stopped and said hello and, you know, Al Gray was like, hey, how you doing? Didn't say like who he was. She just thought he was the gardener.

• 52:21JD Baker?

  And she's like, man, I've lived here in South DCC my entire life and I've always wondered what it looks like on the inside of that house. So Al Gray was kinda like, interesting. So goes to a staff meeting on Monday and he's like, I'm having a garden party and I'm inviting all my neighbors. So they send out invitations to block radiuses all around, you know, Eighth and I, and he's inviting, of course, he's got staff guys going, okay, we're gonna put a rope here, let's take this thing down. I mean, cause they got a lot of like a chesty pullers underwear in there or something. I don't want somebody to take, you know what I mean? And Al Gray's like, no, man, it's, these are my neighbors. Like, do you, like, when your neighbors come over, do you put stuff away? Do you put ropes up and they're

• 53:05JD Baker?

  only allowed in certain sections of your house? These are my neighbors. And sure enough, man, he has his party and the neighbors are all coming in and here's that elderly black woman comes in and who's she meet at the door? Al Gray. She thought he was the gardener and there he is. I mean, when they got done with the end of the event, not one thing was stolen, nothing broken, you know what I mean? And the Marines up at Eighth and I weren't having any more problems out in town anymore with the neighbors and around Southeast DC. It was just a, an extended hand of, these are our neighbors. And that's kinda sums up of like who Al Gray is. So he had a huge effect on the Marine Corps, just in that

• 53:44JD Baker?

  four-year period of time. And, and I just got lucky enough to, to meet him in Panama in 89 and just stayed in contact of it. And his memory is just like, he could remember like exact dates, names. The guy's got a phenomenal memory and he was self-educated. You know what I mean? He was, number one thing was, was the library. You know what I mean? Get a book, read it. And, you know, now Marine Corps has the reading list, which is kinda cool. We got a lot of cool books on there, you know what I mean? So you go through the different grade levels and, you know, you can get books. And, and the Marine Corps is always really big into their history and big into the reading, which one that

• 54:29JD Baker?

  fell in line with me, love history, love the, love the reading aspect of it. And, you know, reading, if this is gonna be your trade, if this is what you're gonna do, then, you need to read a lot of books. And, you know, I had some other officers, you know, one, Eric Carlson, he told me to cast my net widely.

• 54:49JD Baker?

  Like, don't just pigeonhole, like, just don't read all military. You know what I mean? So cast your net widely so you get a, you know, a different perspective on different things. And, and so that was, that was, had a, that was pretty cool with, with Eric, you know, and casting my net. So I, I mean, I read from Danielle Steele, anything that I could get my hands on, just to be able to, to read. And the imagination, Rudyard Kipling, you know, Henry David Thoreau. I even read some theoretical physicists, the cork and the jaguar, which was like, I, that'd be a cool job to be like a theoretical fit, just like sit in a room like this and I

• 55:34JD Baker?

  just think for eight hours and of stuff and, you know, go back. But that was a, that was, that was pretty cool.

• 55:42Jocko Willink?

  Were you, where were you when the invasion went down in Panama?

• 55:45JD Baker?

  Uh, we were, uh, the invasion, we were back, uh, stateside because we were rotated in. You, you went down on a 90 day tour. Uh, you did a 90 day, uh, and then rotated back. Uh, so that was in, in 89. Uh, but that was also, I was a, that was a fire team leader. Uh, so that was like my first, uh, go around being a fire team leader and, and that was probably my first realization, even though like nothing, nothing happened. Like we didn't get any gunfights while we were down there. There was events that were taking place, just me personally, I, I didn't have any events. Uh, but when you get issued, you know, issued live ammo and you take the BFA off the, you know what I mean? It got real.

• 56:30JD Baker?

  Like then I was kind of like, okay, this, this is, this isn't like camp anymore. Like, you know what I mean? But being in triple canopy down there and, you know, we went, they used to have Fort Sherman, the army base that was down there and you'd go through jungle, uh, jungle warfare and jungle survival, a phenomenal place. You know, when they take you down there, they got like this little zoo that like, like show you the animals that you can encounter while you're there, dude. It wasn't the Panamanian Defense Force that we were scared of. It was the, the creatures in that jungle. Uh, we're like seeing like the anaconda. Uh, you know what I mean? It was like, that, that's a big, that's a big snake.

• 57:08Jocko Willink?

  I was, I was lucky. When I was at SEAL Team One, we were like the designated Southeast Asia. Team and so we were supposed to be ready for the jungle and in our platoon workup getting ready to deploy. We went and did like a month in Panama. We went to that zoo, all that stuff. Went through that army jungle survival training. I don't know if we went through like a full school, but it was like a couple, like a day and a half or something like this. They're, you know, showing you what to watch out for and all that kind of stuff, but it was awesome. You know, then we went, we just went out and lived in the jungle for like a month and we had a little base camp set up and we'd go out and do our training throughout the day. We would do, we would do occasionally, we'd try and do night immediate action drills, which is like completely

• 57:49Jocko Willink?

  black. There's no night vision days, you know, just completely black, running through the jungle, sending up a loom, you know, hitting trees with your loom by accident. Cause I was a radymist, I was always, I was always firing a loom. It was freaking awesome. You get, you get good when you, when you spend that much time in the field, you get good at it.

• 58:08JD Baker?

  Yeah. And doing the three months down there, that's where I would say that I got good at being an infantryman. Uh, but it was, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's amazing. You're talking about like, you know, the, cause when it got dark, I mean, do you remember that?

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  It's black.

• 58:24JD Baker?

  Well, dude, you remember those NVGs we had back then to where like the starlight scope to where, okay, well, one, it requires starlight.

• 58:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we didn't even use those down there.

• 58:33JD Baker?

  And then you'd be in the radio operators. I don't know what you got. Remember we had the 77s, uh, the prick 77s, the 104s, you know what I mean? To where like you had to be good.

• 58:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. You had to have skills. Yeah.

• 58:45JD Baker?

  Yeah. I mean, it's a skill set to run com. Like when I look at the communications that these folks have nowadays, it's like, wow. Like trying to get a comm shot with a 77 or a 104, uh, was, you know, that's when the communicators had some serious skill sets, uh, to be able to, to manipulate and operate comm, especially down there. Uh, that was the first time is like being a team leader, I had to do like, you know, patrol overlays. So I had to, I had to get good at my job. Um, and, and I would say that that probably was the, the pinnacle of like those three months, but down there, I, I, that's when I became an infantryman, you know, as, as what we would call, cause in 0311 is you're a scout.

• 59:29JD Baker?

  Is basically, uh, is pretty much what you are. Um, and then that had a, a big effect on me, uh, as being a Marine of what's important as far as like training and education wise of becoming a professional infantryman, uh, was really big.

• 59:47Jocko Willink?

  So it's not too long after that, that the Gulf War starts heating up, the first Gulf War.

• 59:53JD Baker?

  Yes.

• 59:53Jocko Willink?

  And so where, how do you, how do you slot into that? You're at one, six now?

• 59:56JD Baker?

  Yeah. Uh, same battalion I was in Panama with, uh, we got a new platoon sergeant when we came back, uh, that guy, uh, his name was Eli Tucker. Uh, his nickname was Eli Tucker, the big motherfucker, uh, cause that dude was jacked, uh, you know what I mean? And just ruthless, but a hell of an, he had a huge impact on me. Uh, he was a sergeant, uh, E5, uh, but that guy, when, when I, when you, like, if you look up Marine infantryman in the dictionary, it's Eli Tucker is in that book. Uh, he's just a phenomenal guy. Uh, both up and down the ladder. He, he pulled respect from the, the officers as well as, as any enlisted in that battalion. Uh, and, and so he was my platoon sergeant. We were

• 1:00:40JD Baker?

  on, on deployment, uh, again, over in the far east and, uh, we hopped in, we were in the Philippines and Noriega decided to add on to his, you know, southern property. So he's

• 1:00:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you mean, uh, Saddam?

• 1:00:53JD Baker?

  Yeah, Saddam, I mean, uh, yeah. So he takes over, uh, he goes over, uh, snatches up Kuwait. We're in the Philippines. They throw us on the USS Brokenawha, the Okinawa, uh, and boom, we steam around and they kick us off the boat and we're in country, uh, right there coming in September. So it, you know, went down in August. They had us in, uh, we were one of the first Marine battalions, uh, to hit the ground, uh, in Saudi Arabia. And then it was just.

• 1:01:20Jocko Willink?

  So did you stay there the whole time?

• 1:01:22JD Baker?

  Yes.

• 1:01:23Jocko Willink?

  How long were, how long were you there for?

• 1:01:24JD Baker?

  Like seven and a half months. We, yeah, it was terrible. Uh, it was, uh,

• 1:01:30Jocko Willink?

  Did you live in a tent in the desert, basically?

• 1:01:32JD Baker?

  We didn't even have the tents. Yeah. We had those radar scattering nets kind of things. So you just, you know, and poncho. Yeah. We were just

• 1:01:40Jocko Willink?

  For, for how long did you live like that?

• 1:01:42JD Baker?

  We were out there for like over seven months.

• 1:01:46JD Baker?

  It was terrible. And you had to have a cot, you know, those little green cots because the desert sand was just so hot. But the cool thing was about the battalion, you know, we kind of talked about it earlier. My battalion commander was Lieutenant Colonel Jones. His initials were TC. So we called him Too Cool. And Jones was a phenomenal battalion commander. Jones, with, he was the kind of guy that he like knew everybody in the battalion. He knew where you were from. He knew a little bit about you. He was very personable. So, you know, and that was almost like every Marine battalion's, their leadership were

• 1:02:28JD Baker?

  all Vietnam vets. So they knew what was important of what we needed to know. There wasn't, you know, and then you go up to the regimental level, and then you've got Al Gray is the commandant. You know, you got Stormon Norman Sworzkoff, you know what I mean, Army Commander, and then Joint Chiefs, you got Colin Powell, kind of, so it's almost like the stars have aligned. You know, when someone, folks are like, yeah, Desert Storm was like, what, like 96 hours? There's a reason for that. Because of those guys are like, yeah, we're not doing this one again. And I mean, when, when we were, it was a long wait. That was a

• 1:03:09Jocko Willink?

  And what are you doing while you're waiting? Just training every day, prepping, getting ready, trying on your gas mask, trying on your gas mask again, trying on your gas mask again. Did you go, were you guys hearing this casualty thing that I saw on CNN? Like, hey, there's going to be mass casualties. Were you expecting that? Were they briefing you on that?

• 1:03:24JD Baker?

  Yeah, they actually flew in a whole bunch of replacements, you know, right prior to the ground war kicking off. And we're like, what are these dudes doing here? You know what I mean? And they're like, oh, these are the replacement guys. You know what I mean of coming in. So, you know, I would probably say like, I got, I got really sick of the gas mask. But when they show you like photos and stuff of like what people look like with blister agent, and like, that was like, that was a real threat. Like, everybody was like scared for those aspects of the chemical mines. And our battalion, we, we had the mine belts, of blowing the mine belts that were out there, which was, you know, interesting within itself, you know, when

• 1:04:06Jocko Willink?

  So that was your mission?

• 1:04:08JD Baker?

  Yeah, well, we had to get through those mine belts first. So there was two big mine belts. So we got the, we're all, everybody's mecked up. Uh, and you, you got the, uh, the, the lines that can shoot over the back of the, uh, the Amtraks and detonate and then it give you a kind of a lane, kind of a thing to go through. Uh, some of them worked, some of them didn't. So we had, yeah, we had tanks, uh, that were there with us. Uh, the tanks that were attached to us, I remember their call sign because it was public enemy, uh, which was like a super, like you're going to be like a tank guy. That's like a, that's a cool.

• 1:04:42Jocko Willink?

  That's a great call.

• 1:04:43JD Baker?

  That's a great call sign, like public enemy. Uh, and you know, those guys would come through and push the plows, uh, and just the, the, the air power, the amount of support and being an O three 11, like on the ground. I, I, I felt like I didn't even need a gun. I mean, the, the kitchen sink was being thrown at these folks. I mean, they were just, it was, it was all on. It was like a, a live fire exercise.

• 1:05:07Jocko Willink?

  So when it kicked off, what was your, what was your, what was your platoon's mission?

• 1:05:12JD Baker?

  Uh, breaching, getting through. And then they had like, on the other side of the mine belts was defensive positions for the Iraqis. So we all had certain objectives that we kind of had to hit. And, uh, you know, just to get through the mine belts, they thought it would take like days for us to get through the mine belts, not a couple of hours. And then we had the army's tiger brigade that was following up. They were the ones that were going to do the big, uh, left, uh, the big left hook going up into Iraq with, I mean, I'd never seen so many Bradleys, A M1 Abrams, because remember that's when the M1 came out, the Abram, which that thing is, that's a badass piece of gear. And, uh, just, so we did the mine belts, they broke left, they start heading up to Iraq and we're,

• 1:05:56JD Baker?

  when we hit their, the objectives, uh, for our company objectives.

• 1:06:00Jocko Willink?

  And so these are like little Iraqi positions? These were your company objectives? Was like little pillboxes or whatever?

• 1:06:07JD Baker?

  Yeah. If even that, I mean, they had been sitting out there for so, like, we had these extravagant, like what we thought we were going to encounter. And then what we actually encountered were not the same.

• 1:06:20Jocko Willink?

  Like some couple of sandbags and a dude with an AK?

• 1:06:22JD Baker?

  Yeah. I mean, and, and they were like in living quarters, like they had been out there so long, just like us. Like you're just trying to make your life comfortable. So get some plywood, you know what I mean? Dig a hole, put it over top of it, you know what I mean? Make a nice little area, you know, you can brew up ramen, you got your coffee, that kind of stuff. They're just basically out there living and the, the frontline troops like weren't the Republican Guard guys. They had those guys behind them to make sure that they didn't run, run away. And so, you know, as soon as you start coming through is basically we, we hit them and.

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  Just white flags?

• 1:06:58JD Baker?

  Oh yeah. I mean, cause they were like, oh my God, they're, they're here already.

• 1:07:03JD Baker?

  You know, like their, their coffee pot was like still warm, you know what I mean? When we rolled in and then it was just, it was just a Rolex. I mean, once we went through the, of course, you know, everybody, you know, you're scared. I mean, you know, when you're on the other side of the mine belts and they're, they're dropping artillery and those sorts of things are coming on. So you can, you can hear the explosions, you know, the, you know, they set the oil fields on fire. So you've just got like that oil fields and the black smoke and all that kind of, so it's like.

• 1:07:32Jocko Willink?

  Were you freaking stoked? Like, yeah, to be there and just like, hell yeah.

• 1:07:38JD Baker?

  Yeah. And then let's get the hell out of here.

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  So how long did it take before you got your objective secured? And then what'd you do?

• 1:07:45JD Baker?

  And we loaded up and straight to Kuwait. I mean, and it was, it was just game on. I mean, we, we, uh, we rolled it, that air war and that campaign that those folks did. Unbelievable. Uh, I mean, it wasn't like a windowpane left intact in Kuwait. I mean, they, they, they, like I said, they threw the kitchen sink at them. I mean, the, the air power above us, even with our, with our helicopter support, with Cobras, Army, with their Apaches. And then all the fast movers and stuff over there. I mean, they just, there was a lot of craters.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  That mile of death, cause I remember years later, probably like, I think it was 93 or 94. I went to Kuwait and we were doing like training and we drove up the mile of death. And there's still vehicles all over the place that we just blasted.

• 1:08:33JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah. And then, you know, then they, they want to make it look like the Kuwaitis, like. Had a part in it. So then they're gonna let them come back in and you know, shoot into the air and yeah, we took our country back and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, that place was a wreck. It's amazing what it looks like now compared to, yeah, I mean, they, they, they took the wood to it, but it was, you know, of seeing that in 91 and just seeing the, the amount of power the United States has is just unimaginable of, of what we can bring to bear. But I look at the commanders that were those senior commander, you know, a few years later after that, I read Colin Powell's autobiography, phenomenal individual,

• 1:09:18JD Baker?

  phenomenal career. But I look at those guys in the, in the leadership positions of, of where they were in their careers of what they had gone through, coming out of Vietnam and seeing that kind of stuff. So when, you know, now it's their turn to go, I was very thankful for that. But even the battalion commanders, you know, them having combat experience, you know what I mean? Was it, it was, it was a game changer for us to have somebody that, you know, directly looking out for you that, that's been there, done that, has the T-shirt and hat kind of aspect and, and they know what right looks like. And the way they were as leaders, like I said, I mean, Tukul Jones was, as the battalion

• 1:10:03JD Baker?

  commander, he was, you know, just phenomenal as a leader because he was personal. Like you felt like you had a relationship with the guy. And, and of course, you know, he always had, he loved sports, you know, it was big and with activities. So, you know, we had softball bats. I played third base for his, you know, for his battalion team, you know what I mean? So third base and, you know, I got an arm. You know what I mean? Love playing, you know, so it was like camp, but you know what I mean? Again, but we're in the middle of the desert.

• 1:10:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, you mentioned that you had these guys who were running the show and, you know, when, when we just had this Afghanistan pull out, which is just a big disaster. And you look at the entire, the entire Afghanistan campaign and the Iraq campaign that, that, that took place when I was in. Did these people learn anything from Vietnam? And then you look at how those guys handled the first Gulf War. It's like, you know, they learned something from Vietnam. Like, we're not gonna do it like that. We're gonna go in there with overwhelming force. I mean, overwhelming times five. Like, there's nothing's gonna stop us. And we're gonna end up doing this in three days. That's what's gonna happen.

• 1:11:19Jocko Willink?

  And like you said, people go, it was only 96 hours. It's like, yes, exactly.

• 1:11:26JD Baker?

  Yeah, I'm thankful for that. You know, and that was a huge turning point. Of course, by then, you know, then I had known when I came back that, you know, the Marine Corps, this is what I'm gonna, this is what I'm gonna do. I've got, you know, three deployments. And then, you know, then they're looking at, now you gotta kind of diversify yourself a little bit. So when I came back and I was a corporal.

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys come back on a ship? How'd you guys get back? How'd you guys get back to America?

• 1:11:58JD Baker?

  Because we were the first in, we got to be the first out. And there was a call of all airlines worldwide to come in to pick up troops to get them home. We flew Hawaiian Airlines, which was, which was pretty banging. You know what I mean? Being out, being gone for over nine months, you know, total, because we were already on deployment and got Tagged. And, you know, getting on the, on the big freedom birds. And we landed in, we flew over, we landed in, in Ireland to refuel. And then we landed in Maine. And when we landed in Maine, they let us get off the planes.

• 1:12:38JD Baker?

  And we all came back in and we were like the first, like, troops back to hit US soil in Maine. And man, the airport was, the walls were lined with, it seemed like the whole state of Maine was at the airport. You know what I mean? Flags, they had tables out, food, and, you know, the battalion commander, you know, he's like, meet me at the bar. And we go to the bar here's probably not the smartest thing to do when you know you've been sober for nine months and now we're all going to go to the bar. And but I mean, the people in Maine for them coming out was huge. Uh, the support that we got uh coming back after that was amazing.

• 1:13:21JD Baker?

  Uh, so we're there, they refuel, they put us back on the on the bird and you know, the the stewardess just had to lock themselves away because you got a bunch of stupid Marines that have had a lot to drink, you know, they got the little no smoking lamps coming on dudes are burning cigarettes, you know, there's no shit's given. We get down to Cherry Point and the bands down there, I mean, they're throwing 12 packs and beer on the back of the uh five tons, we're going back down to Lejeune. Uh, it was, I mean, it was a great, great uh homecoming uh to be able to to come back. And it was uh, it was, it was phenomenal uh uh for that experience. And then I had to decide of what I'm, what I'm going to do next.

• 1:14:06JD Baker?

  And uh, yeah, I had a, one of my uh best friends, Doug Berry, he lives uh just up the road here in San Diego, uh, we were uh together in first battalion, six Marines. And uh, we both went over uh to await orders to go to the drill field uh to become a drill instructor. Um, and just because, you know, I mean, the Marine Corps, like the, the DI is a very iconic.

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:14:31JD Baker?

  Uh, figure, but the bigger reason is, is back then you only had to do two years on the drill field. But if you went recruiting, you had to do three. Well, the only thing I knew was I did not want to be a recruiter like that, you know, I would, God bless them, you know what I mean? We've got the school right here at, at MCRD for Marine Corps recruiting and the guys are great at their job. Uh, you know, the Marines put on the, you know, the uniform, the way they look, the way they recruit, I mean, we can propaganda with the best of them out there. And uh, so I, I wanted to go do the DI thing, get the funny hat. Uh, plus it, you know, it would be fun, uh, and it was, uh, it was.

• 1:15:15Jocko Willink?

  How long, so how long is drill instructor's school?

• 1:15:18JD Baker?

  It's like three months. It's kind of like you're going through boot camp, but you got rank.

• 1:15:22Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. It, I imagine though, they must be like even harder in boot than boot camp in some ways because you got to be so like perfect with everything.

• 1:15:32JD Baker?

  Yeah, and it's learning like the, the, the drill manual verbatim. Uh, it's the, from the mannerisms to just the, the, the command presence.

• 1:15:42Jocko Willink?

  They teach you that?

• 1:15:44JD Baker?

  Oh.

• 1:15:44Jocko Willink?

  Teach, can they take a guy that doesn't have any command presence and they teach it to him?

• 1:15:48JD Baker?

  Oh yeah. I mean, you're gonna stand out there and yell at a lot of trees. You know what I mean? Just like if you ever go down there and you like watch DI school and they're going through DI school, you'll see dudes like, what is he doing yelling and they just went at a tree? Well, he's doing what like it's called a teach back where you have to verbatim. Uh, you know what I mean? Like go back through for the, the different, uh, moves of, of, of drill. And then, you know, from your mannerisms, how you dress, how you look, your professionalism, uh, uh, of, of coming in is it, it is, it's a, it's a difficult school. The uniforms, uh, are just, I mean, that's next level. Uh, you know, because I wasn't like the best uniform guy, uh, you know, I mean, yeah, I wasn't.

• 1:16:33JD Baker?

  Like I didn't even own dress blues. Like I, cause you had to buy them back then if you wanted them. And I was like, why do I want to buy them? You know what I mean? I like the alphas, the, the greens. Uh, so I, I just had alphas. I never had the blues. They didn't issue them to me and you know what I mean? I'm, I'm cool with that. I didn't join to get dress blues. Um, I joined for the camis and the rifle, free ammo, that kind of stuff, travel the world. Uh, so when I got there, the, the uniforms were difficult. The PT, uh, was really good, but it was, it was more of the structure of everything that they do to you at DI school. You can use it when you become a drill instructor. So they're going to do stuff to you that then you can turn around and.

• 1:17:12Jocko Willink?

  Like what?

• 1:17:14JD Baker?

  Uh, like on the training schedule of like, of, you know, probably the, the biggest misconception, uh, of, of Marine Corps and, and boot camps, everybody thinks it's like hands on. Like, you know, oh, you're going to get beat. They're going to put their.

• 1:17:28Jocko Willink?

  I mean, like physically.

• 1:17:29JD Baker?

  Physically. Yeah. I mean, and you learn there that, you know, you don't have to hit them to hurt them. You know what I mean? It's a one arm's distance. Nothing has changed. If you need to put your hands on somebody, then you've lost leadership. You know what I mean? If you have to go to the physical force. But you know, just in your mannerism and the shock and awe of just the voice can just intimidate people is mainly is your voice, the Smokey brings a lot to bear. And then just your physical fitness level. You know what I mean? Because as a recruit, you're like, does this guy like sweat? Like this guy doesn't get tired. I mean, these guys are

• 1:18:11JD Baker?

  just animals. And it is, it's a lot of, it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot of long hours. But it is, it is very rewarding. When, when you get the recruits of coming and it's fun. Because now you're like a live character on Saturday Night Live. I mean, some of the stuff, that's why you got the big Smokey. So you can drop it so they can't see you laughing. Because I mean, some of the stuff that you see that recruits do, you know, I was like, yeah, I'd be with some of the other hats because that's what you call a DI hat. And you'd be with one of their hats was like, dude, there's no way I was this stupid when I was here. And you're like, yeah, you were. You were just as dumb as these kids are that are coming in and they just do funny,

• 1:18:55JD Baker?

  they do funny stuff. And then as, as a drill instructor, when, when you get these kids on the yellow footprints and then in a three month period, when their parents come down for graduation and you're marching them up there and it's Parents Day, Thursday afternoon at Parris Island, and, and all the parents are excited to see their kids, excuse me, and uh,

• 1:19:20JD Baker?

  when the parents have to come over and ask you like, which one's mine?

• 1:19:26JD Baker?

  You know what I mean? You're kind of looking at him like, dude, you've had that kid for like 18 years and you don't know which one's yours. You know, the transformation when they get to go out with their parents, the drill instructors get to meet the parents that night when they bring the kids back to the squad bay. And the parents are just like, how did you do this in three months? He's saying, yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. He's holding doors open like he's sitting up straight at the table. You know what I mean? Like what you all did to this, to our son is just incredible. It's a great weight loss program. You know what I mean? Like folks show up, you know what I mean? They look like a sea bag with lips chewed up bubble gum. And you know what I mean? Three months later, they're fighting lava monsters. I mean, they look like they're, you

• 1:20:10JD Baker?

  know, straight out of 300. And so that's very rewarding of seeing some of those, some of those kids, just, and you know, in the Marine Corps, man, we then we're going to put that emblem on them for the rest of their life. I mean, they've, they've joined a great institution. You know, once a Marine, always a Marine. You know, we're going to bring the families in. We're going to, mom, dad, they're going to buy the T-shirts, the hats, they're going to fly the flags. The Marine Corps does a, in my opinion, we do a really good job of bringing in the entire family. Like, you know, I mean, you'll see the stickers on the backs of cars. My, my son's a US Marine. My daughter's a US Marine. I mean, we, my, you know, we got my grandson. I mean, we bring in

• 1:20:54JD Baker?

  the whole family to support that kid while he's, you know, to service the country, which is huge.

• 1:20:59Jocko Willink?

  When, when you're a drill instructor, or you're a drill instructor school, are they talking you through sort of like the psychological why behind this aspect of training or this aspect of treatment? For instance, when I went to OCS, you know, I had Marine Corps Drill Instructor, awesome guy, awesome drill instructor. But at some point, he, he told us stuff at the end, you know, and it was, I honestly, I think I was asking a lot of questions because I wanted to understand better. But for instance, when you get to OCS, you can't look at your food. You, you, you have to, they call it squaring your meals. And I was like, hey, what, why are we doing that? And he goes, well, that comes from when we treat, when we used to just train pilots,

• 1:21:42Jocko Willink?

  they had to learn to use their peripheral vision so they could see their instruments while they're looking around. Okay, that makes sense. Hey, why do we gotta yell at you? Because you gotta speak in a ballistic tone, which means you gotta yell everything. I'm like, what, what's the reason behind that? He says, well, you know, we get these young ensigns in here that are going to go on be, be on board a ship. They're gonna be on the bridge and we're gonna have to give orders on the bridge in a simple, clear, concise manner. They can't be hesitant. They gotta think before they say, but then they gotta say it with a commanding voice so that people actually hear them and then can execute. So there's things going on that there's a pragmatic reason behind. But did they ever break that down for you? For instance, you know, you can go watch on YouTube. You can go watch like the welcome aboard, uh, not like the first night,

• 1:22:26Jocko Willink?

  but maybe it's the second day where the Marines, they have a very, uh, pre-planned script that they're saying about, you know, this is the Marine Corps, this is what we're doing. Do they break stuff down at a, at a, at a psychological level for you? Because what you just said about the Marine Corps doing it very well, I mean, I don't know if there's anyone that does it better than the Marine Corps. I mean, in the world, I don't know if there's any group that has a stronger culture than the Marine Corps that, that takes normal human beings from literally everywhere and every strata of the United States of America and sometimes other parts of the world, and turns them into this cohesive unit.

• 1:23:10Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if there's anybody that does it better, but do they break it down? Do they say, hey, here's the reason why we do this right here? Like even basic SEAL training, you know, they're like, oh, what is hell week for? What is it for? And there's people that can answer that question. Well, here's what's gonna happen. You know, this is what's, you're gonna, you're gonna have guys that are gonna quit on the second day and those are the people that blah, blah. And they've done all this sort of psychological background on it. Is there anything like that at the, when you, when you become a Marine Corps drill instructor that you understand the why? Or is it just, this is what we know works?

• 1:23:47JD Baker?

  Yeah, a lot of it has to do with this is, this is what works. Uh, but at the same thing, everything is done. Like you said, they give squaring your meals, like everything is for a reason. Uh, and it's also, you know, the, when we hand this recruit over to this, you know, commissioned officer, it's instant obedience to orders. Like, I mean, these guys, they're, I mean, they do it better than anybody. Uh, for instance, obedience, but when you're talking about like, uh, the, the psychological aspect. So I was also, I was a swim hat. So I was a marine combat instructor, water survival. So I was a, uh, a swim instructor, basically for the Marine Corps.

• 1:24:26JD Baker?

  And, uh, you know, uh, because of the, the kids that we recruit like myself, they can't put that marine has something to do with aquatics in it for some reason. Uh, you know what I mean? Like the recruiters don't like, let them know that, hey, when you get down there, you gotta swim. Yeah, I mean, we get, like you said, I mean, we get kids from all over the planet that have never, the largest body of water they've ever seen is the, the pool tank at, at Paris Island, South Carolina. I mean, they've never been in a body of water that big. And we don't ask them if they can swim. Like nobody's, you know, the drill instructor doesn't come out, hey, anybody not swim? You can stand over here to the side. We just, you know, strap their gear on them, you know what I mean? So give them a rifle, put a helmet on them, they're wearing their boots and they're all like, you know,

• 1:25:12JD Baker?

  A to B, right next to the, the 10 foot tower. And we're going to give them the, the swim brief and we're going to take them up on the 10 foot tower and ask them to take a 30 inch step into the deep end and swim 25 meters. And when you're sitting there looking, you know, who the recruits are that can't swim. Cause they're probably looking around going, is anybody going to ask? Like, nobody there is not going to ask. And when you look at it, it's, we just want to see if, if they're going to step, if they can overcome fear. You know, if an individual can't overcome the fear or trust, I mean, there's a drill instructor in the water waiting for you, like, no one has drowned in this training, like, it's, you

• 1:25:56JD Baker?

  know, it's the instructors that are there, very professional, very well-run. And when you see this, this young man or young woman, you know what I mean, that mounts the tower, that knows that they can't swim a day in their life, and, but they're gonna trust the instructors and, and the Marine Corps, that we're gonna take care of you. They just have to step 30-inch step, they hit the water, they come up, you know, they're throwing up stuff from the third grade, they got snot coming out, they're straight to the, they don't even make it even close to swimming at all, they're just a rock in the water. We take them over to the side, we strip them all the way down until they're, you know, they're, they're PT shorts, and we take them down to the, to the shallow end, and we teach them how to swim. You know what I mean? It's a life skill.

• 1:26:42JD Baker?

  And, you know, there's nothing greater than when you're, you know, because, and it's not necessarily, you know, maybe their parents just, we don't know their background, how they were raised, like, for me, I don't remember learning how to swim, I could just swim. You know, a lot of those kids just don't have that advantage, and we take them down there to the, to the shallow end of the pool, and we teach them the survival strokes, and in a couple of weeks, you know, like, if they've got different training, they gotta come back to the pool and do remediation until we can get them to pass and they can swim. When you see the confidence level in a kid, now that he can, like, swim and he passed that, I mean, this guy's gonna go through brick walls. His fear is gone. You know, there's nothing this kid cannot accomplish now.

• 1:27:26JD Baker?

  I mean, it's just amazing, and you could see it in them. I mean, you know, if you've ever, like, seen someone, they accomplished something, just of a small task of, like, swimming 25 meters. Like, it's really not that big of a deal, but to that kid, huge, life-changing event.

• 1:27:42Jocko Willink?

  How often, what's the attrition rate of Marine Corps boot camp?

• 1:27:50Jocko Willink?

  How many guys would you lose in a, in a, what, what are you in charge of there? A platoon?

• 1:27:55JD Baker?

  Yeah. So you got a platoon. So, you know, depending on the time of the year, you might have, you know, between 50 to 70 kids that are in a platoon and you might lose 15 to 20 of them. Uh, but a lot of them, you know, it's injuries. So they're going to get recycled out. Yeah. They're just going to get recycled and rolled. Uh, they go to what, like if you come in like, uh, you know, when you first get down there, you know, and it's no offense to recruiters or anything like that, but you know, the kids are supposed to be able to have completed a somewhat of a physical test prior to coming. So they can at least like pull themselves up out of a wet paper bag, at least like once before they get there. Uh, you know, it's that whole preparation thing and, and some of the kids, you know, we send them to PCP,

• 1:28:36JD Baker?

  physical conditioning platoon, because some of them show up and they're just not, not really prepared. And, and when you kind of look at that, it's not really the kid, you know, the kid just read a pamphlet, you know what I mean? He wants to come in and that's somebody's son or daughter.

• 1:28:53JD Baker?

  You know what I mean? That they think that's the greatest thing since sliced bread. And you know, to be a Marine, I mean, you only got to do three pull-ups. I mean, you only got to run three miles in 28 minutes. I mean, it's not like we're, we're banging it. You know what I mean? Of like something that's just like incredibly difficult. But to some people, three pull-ups is, that's the most they've ever done in their life. And, uh, so, you know, we've got those, we've got medical rehabilitation platoon. Uh, so if the guys get rolled back, uh, it's very rare, you know what I mean? Like you can try to drop. I mean, we do drop kids that get sent off the island and it's just because they're just not conforming.

• 1:29:29Jocko Willink?

  What about just straight quitters? Like it's cold or it's hot or it's too far?

• 1:29:34JD Baker?

  You're going to send them down. Everybody's got like a, a series commander. So you have an officer to kind of. Keep a look over what's happening in cell block. Uh, you know what I mean? And they have to go down and they'll get an interview with that. Uh, you know, a marine captain, uh, he's a serious commander and he's going to try to talk that kid into staying. Like, hey, you know what, man? The drill charges really aren't that bad. You know what I mean? Cause it's all a numbers game. You know what I mean? Like in the end, the Marine Corps needs a certain amount of numbers. Uh, so he's going to try to talk the kid back in and that's like a lot of times with the platoon commander or the, you know, the series commanders that you have down there, you're like, you gotta be shitting me, sir. You're gonna send this kid back, man? Like, God, you know, this guy is just, this kid's incredible.

• 1:30:18JD Baker?

  And he's just like, you just work with him. You know what I mean? Just, you know, leadership challenge. I hate that. You know what I mean? Like, that's the last thing I need in the middle of boot camp was my leadership challenge. But in the end, I mean, you know, they're, they're, for the most part, one, when you look at it, they're, they're joining the United States Marine Corps. So you look across America, like who else is joining? You know what I mean? So at least the kid signed on a dotted line and he's going to come and provide service to his country. Which is, that's pretty incredible. Uh, just in, in that aspect, uh, but some of them just, you know, psychologically, they just, they're not mentally tough enough and they're going to do whatever it takes to get off of that island.

• 1:31:01JD Baker?

  And we're going to do whatever it takes to help them get off of that island. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a lot of fun. Um, but you know, the rifle range is usually a, a, a pretty big deal. You know, every marine's a rifleman, but you know, we're just looking, you know, marksmen. How many can get across the qualification lines, uh, that kind of thing. So the marksmanship package, you know what I mean? It's a two week package down there. I think it's pretty good. Uh, it's a pretty good marksmanship package that the Marine Corps puts on. Uh, you know, for us shooting them back at 500 with, you know, green tip 556, it's not great ammo. Uh, it's a, it's a pretty big accomplishment. Uh, and then, you know, just the, the aspects of when those kids graduate from Paris Island.

• 1:31:44JD Baker?

  Uh, you know, I mean, they, they look like they're ready to just strap on the world. Uh, in a, in a three month period, you know, they're really not any tougher than they were three months before when they got there. But their mindset is different. Uh, I, I would say that that's probably the biggest thing. We just, we changed their mindset. And hopefully we're making a better product for America. When the kids go back home, if they get out, hopefully we're putting a better product back into society after serving in the Marines. And, you know, I would say the majority, we're doing a pretty good job. But I would say that for pretty much all the armed services.

• 1:32:24Jocko Willink?

  The instant obedience to orders. When you get the, in the Marine Corps, you know, Marine Corps was like we already talked about Al Gray and the Enlightenment, the Second Enlightenment of the Marine Corps, which is, hey, we want people to think, we want to have, you know, mission type orders and those kinds of things. At what point do you go from, all right, I'm a robot, I'm going to obey the orders that are given to me to, hold on a second, boss, here's what my thoughts are?

• 1:32:51JD Baker?

  Yeah, usually when you're getting the non-commissioned officer, when you step into that team leader role, you know what I mean? And then you're, you know, you're reading a, I mean, usually, I don't know if it's still to this day, but, you know, reading message to Garcia, you know what I mean? Just getting them on those little inches of starting to, to think on their own, you know what I mean? And not necessarily like everything has to come from a book, like everything very set in stone, you know what I mean? So when Al Gray, you know, brings in these, you know, the warfighting publications, yeah, it's starting to, it's, it's, it's kind of liberating that you can now, there's

• 1:33:32JD Baker?

  not a problem with like questioning authority. It's basically, you're not, you're just asking why? Like, what's the why? And it like, why are we here? Why are we doing it this way? Is it just because you're telling me to? You know what I mean? Or is there actually some, you know, method to the madness? So I would say, you know, once you get into that team leader kind of role, an NCO, you know, the non-commissioned officer, you know, that's when, you know, we're going to start, you need to start thinking on your own. You need to start taking charge. It's not that instant obedience to orders. And, you know, if you see something that's not right, then, you know, bring that up and, and you shouldn't be worried about the repercussions of, of questioning. You know, now there are some

• 1:34:16JD Baker?

  that don't like to be questioned. So of course, you know, there, there's that aspect of it, but that's in, in any organization.

• 1:34:23Jocko Willink?

  Any organization has those kinds of jerks.

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  So you get done with, what happens when you get done with your time at drill instructor? Will you go back to one six?

• 1:34:33JD Baker?

  Yep, go right back. First, I didn't want to have to buy new T-shirts and stuff. So I figured, hey, man, yeah, I called the monitor. Let's go right back to first battalion, six Marines. Went back there and now I'm stepping into that like platoon sergeant kinda thing. The Eli Tucker of my career.

• 1:34:54Jocko Willink?

  And that, you mentioned to me one time, we were talking and you were like, oh, some guys had a hard time taking off their DI hat. Meaning they come from the drill field where they're yelling and screaming and expect to be treated basically like a god. And now they're back in a platoon and it's like, they keep acting like that and it can be a problem.

• 1:35:14JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, no, I don't want, you know, the fellow drill instructors out there to take offense. But, you know, marine drill instructors, you're just the lowest paid actor. I mean, it is an acting job. You know, I mean, you know, you, you're putting on a, it's a show. And someone will be like, you know, oh, I don't agree with that. Well, if I'm like the third hat, you know, I have a certain way that they want me to act as the third hat. If I'm the heavy, you know what I mean? The second hat, the J of what they call.

• 1:35:44Jocko Willink?

  What's the third hat?

• 1:35:45JD Baker?

  The third hat, you're like Nick the new hat. You just graduated from school. Literally, you might as well just get a laundry number and stand with the recruits. Cause you don't know what you're doing. You know what I mean? It's, you just run around and they're like, hey, you know, they'd be like, hey, dog, you, you need to get louder and you need to get faster. You know, everything that you're doing is not fast enough. It's not loud enough. It's not, you know what I mean? So, yeah, so you're running around and you're trying to be that, that sand flea. The where you're just never letting these kids get a break. The, the, the heavy, like the, he's the senior green belt in the platoon. And he's teaching them everything. Drill, teaching them squad bay procedures, you know what I mean? He's very firm, like the heavy is the guy that's the most experienced drill instructor.

• 1:36:29JD Baker?

  He's the one as a recruit, you don't mess with. This guy, he, he knows the drill. He's very good at his job. And then you got like the senior drill instructor that wears the black belt. He's like dad. You know what I mean? Like he comes in, he hands out mail, he's nicer to you.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  And these are all stated roles?

• 1:36:49JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, if, if you're like the third hat, like the new guy and you're in there like big daddy and the recruits and handing out candy to them. Yeah, you're not going to go over well with your peers. You know what I mean? They're, they're gonna, you know, it's that peer pressure of, of how you're kinda, of what role you play in the platoon. So, you know, some of the folks, when, when you leave the drill field and you go back to the fleet marine force, some of the folks, they like, they, they wear that smokey. They wanna, they wanna wear it in the fleet. And, uh, and a lot of folks are like, look, dude, we're not in boot camp anymore. Uh, and you know what I mean? You need to leave that hat

• 1:37:30JD Baker?

  on the island. Um, but, you know, when you do come back and, and, you know, especially with the officers and the senior enlisted, uh, as a, as a drill instructor, you know what I mean? I mean, you're bringing, um, you're bringing a lot of, of, of experience, uh, you know what I mean? And work ethic back to the battalion. You know, my, uh, my oldest daughter, she's married to a marine. He's infantry. Uh, he just finished his, uh, he was a DI. Uh, you know, of course, he calls me, what should I do next? Drill instructor, man. You know what I mean? And, and he knocked it out the park. And now he's back at Camp Lejeune. Uh, and I guess the first thing I told him, leave the, leave the smokey, you know, at, at Paris Island. You know what I mean? There's, there's just no place for

• 1:38:13JD Baker?

  it. That's not a, that's not a leadership style. Uh, you know, nobody really responds well to that.

• 1:38:21Jocko Willink?

  Other than Marine Corps recruits in, you know, at Paris Island.

• 1:38:26JD Baker?

  Right.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  That's it.

• 1:38:27JD Baker?

  That, that's it. You know, but then the funny thing is, is like, uh, you know, after you've been on the drill field and you can't, don't really remember all the recruits that you've had, just because there's just a whole bunch of them. So it's kinda hard to like keep up. But some of them you end up like finding out that like that that kid was in your platoon and you go over to him and it's like, hey man, how come you didn't come over and say anything? You're on a platoon. They're like, dude, I wasn't gonna come over and talk to you, man. Like, are you shitting me? Like, dude, I'm scared to death of you. And it's just like, just a regular guy. You know what I mean? But it's that that whole perception and, you know, everybody still remembers their Marine drill instructors. It's even me, my Sergeant Williams was my senior drill instructor. I'll never forget that guy.

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10JD Baker?

  And he was motor T.

• 1:39:11Jocko Willink?

  Oddly enough, my my drill instructor I still remember in Officer Candidate School, and his last name, he was Gunnery Sergeant Seals, which is an interesting coincidence, right?

• 1:39:22JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Jocko Willink?

  Awesome guy. Awesome guy. So you get back to 1-6 and now you're now you're a platoon sergeant? Is that right?

• 1:39:29JD Baker?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm back. I was still a sergeant. So I was an E5. Technically, you're supposed to be a a E6 to get a platoon. But, you know, they were they were short on those guys. So I got a platoon.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  And this is what, like 1997 or something like that?

• 1:39:45JD Baker?

  96. Yeah, I finished. Yeah, I finished on the drill field in 95 and came over and right back into 1-6 in 96. And I was very excited to be back at Camp Lechon. Not that I didn't have a like a good time at at Paris. I had a little bit. It was a DI. I had a little run in with a with one of the battalion commanders that was down there. And he thought I was a little overly aggressive. And, you know, it was, you know, he told me that, you know, let me tell you what it's like to be a drill instructor. And I was like, when were you a drill instructor, sir? That went over like a fart in church. You know what I mean? He didn't like that

• 1:40:29JD Baker?

  aspect of it. And so me and him didn't necessarily see eye to eye. So when I left Paris Island, they were like, you know, Please don't come back, but it was a lot of fun. And then when I got back to the fleet, there was a lot of other guys that, you know, the drill instructor community is very small and it's pretty tight. And if, and if you get back in, one of the company gunnies, his name was Clifford Happy, he was a hat. So when I came in, you know, I just got more opportunities, just because I had had that experience of being a drill instructor. So they gave me a platoon, which I was super stoked with. And they gave me a platoon commander.

• 1:41:10JD Baker?

  His name Buck Rollins. His dad was Wayne Rollins, two-star general, Navy Cross winner, Vietnam. Great guy, just attended his funeral a few months back. He was buried in Arlington. Buck Rollins and I, you know, somebody there, Doug Zembeck was there at the time. I mean, that battalion, for some odd reason, man, we had some like amazing second lieutenants, like that were just like, you didn't really see that many great guys that were all in that battalion from Pascoli to, you know, you know, there was a, just a bunch of them. Fredo was in there as platoon commanders. That was my first experience of where, you

• 1:41:55JD Baker?

  know, when you become up, up as a platoon sergeant, you get to spend more time with platoon commanders. You know, before that, you don't really hang out with the officers, like at all. You know what I mean? But then you become like, you're a partner. You know what I mean? You're gonna work this platoon together. And I had, you know, I was very fortunate that I had Buck Rollins, I had Doug Zembeck, and I had Doug Olson.

• 1:42:18Jocko Willink?

  These guys were your platoon commanders?

• 1:42:20JD Baker?

  Yeah, and I worked with them. They were the platoon commander, but it's my platoon.

• 1:42:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:29JD Baker?

  Yeah, they just get to hang out.

• 1:42:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. We they say in the office about the officers and the SEAL teams is like they rent, we own.

• 1:42:37JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:38Jocko Willink?

  The officers rent, we own. It's like my, it's like the chief, you know, the the E dogs, it's their platoon. The officers just, you know, he's gonna be here for a little while, but this is our platoon.

• 1:42:48JD Baker?

  Yeah, that's pretty much the exact same thing it is in an infantry battalion. It's it's it's the platoon sergeant. It's, you know, like I said, I mean, you know, Eli Tucker had a huge effect on me as a as a platoon sergeant. And, you know, coming in from the the kids that were in that platoon, and, you know, I've stayed in in one six for

• 1:43:06JD Baker?

  like three and a half years in the battalion, did a couple of pumps.

• 1:43:09Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, so you do a workup.

• 1:43:11JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:43:12Jocko Willink?

  Training cycle and then go on deployment. Were you riding ships on those deployments?

• 1:43:16JD Baker?

  Uh, yeah, riding ships, doing the workup. We did a med float, which was, which was super cool. We kind of got deployed early. I ended up over in Albania, Tehran, Albania, if you remember in like the 97 timeframe. They were kind of blowing embassies up around the, so we got the call. I was with the 24th, yeah, 24th Mew. And we just finished up doing workup. And we needed to, they wanted us to go into Tehran, Albania. So, you know, I got the call. At that time, I had the sniper platoon. So I had the the snipers, I took 12 guys. And, you know, we jumped on C 130s up in Cherry Point with an infantry rifle company.

• 1:44:01JD Baker?

  And they flew us over. We did a refuel. I think it's Singapore, landed in Italy, got on a 53, flew out on a USS Ipan. With the 22nd Mew, got briefed in and we were in country in Tehran, Albania, after they had evacuated the embassies out of there. And and that was, we we stayed over there for a couple of months.

• 1:44:22Jocko Willink?

  And so what were you doing? What was your mission?

• 1:44:24JD Baker?

  Uh, just basically.

• 1:44:28JD Baker?

  Running, the embassy was evacuated, so we were-

• 1:44:31Jocko Willink?

  So it's empty?

• 1:44:32JD Baker?

  Yeah, it's empty. I mean-

• 1:44:33Jocko Willink?

  And so you guys are basically doing security on the embassy?

• 1:44:35JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:44:36Jocko Willink?

  To make sure it doesn't get trashed or whatever, or no one comes in and steals shit, or?

• 1:44:39JD Baker?

  Yep. And they, I mean, they had a lot of, a lot of other agencies that were over there running around. You know, there was some Navy SEALs were over there. There was a lot of stuff going on, you know what I mean? The overarching was Bosnia, you know what I mean? That whole region at the time. It was, it was a really good experience, you know, especially for the younger guys that were in the platoon. The guys that I had in that platoon, even still to this day, I'm still in contact with. You know, from those guys, that was a, that was a very special time, those three years at 1-6, being in that platoon sergeant, or what you would call like chief scout kind of role, was just huge.

• 1:45:23JD Baker?

  I learned more about myself then, you know, with, with those folks and, and just, you know, they're relying on me, you know what I mean? To, to train, educate them, take care of them. It was, it was a really, a really special time in the Marine Corps for that, that time in service.

• 1:45:42Jocko Willink?

  When you went over there, were you the senior guy, or did you have an officer?

• 1:45:47JD Baker?

  We had an officer, company commander, company commander. We had a, and then of course, the Mew had their, some of their Mew staff that was over there. Sean Pascoli was a captain that was over there. I'm still friends with Sean.

• 1:46:03JD Baker?

  Those guys, they had a company kind of reinforced. So we had some guys that were at the embassy. We had some guys that kind of stayed back and they were at the housing complex. You still had State Department folks that were milling about the area and, you know, they're just looking for, for bad guys. We did a lot of time, like watching. We were basically the snipers, we were overwatch. So, you know, we had Albanians working gates, stuff like that, you know, we would hire them and then we would do the overwatch for them. Over at the embassy, it was right next to the University of Toronto. So it was just a, a lot of observing, a lot of time observing. But it was the, the same experience for those guys that I got when I was, went to Panama. You know, when they issue out the live ammo, it's just a different game.

• 1:46:48JD Baker?

  You know, even though nothing eventful, which I'm thankful for, took place while we were over there. Uh, cause you know, the only thing that would come in, in the back of my mind, when I think of like being at an embassy is Beirut. Uh, you know, when you're just blowing stuff up, that's not necessarily warfare anymore. Uh, you know, that's terrorist activities. Uh, that's a, you know, and, you know, when you, when you think of the events of a, of an infantry company, you know, in a barracks, you know, you can't help but think of Beirut. Um, so, but luckily we learned from that. The company commander was there, like we were very well dispersed. Nobody was going to be in one, you know, single point of failure.

• 1:47:28JD Baker?

  Uh, the overwatch on the gates, the guards, I mean, it was, there wasn't, you know, the rules of engagement, you know, I, I, you know, of what they had to deal with at Beirut, completely different. So obviously, you know, we were a learning organization of we're not going to let this kind of happen again, which was, which was really cool, uh, for those guys to, to kind of go through that experience. Uh, and then, you know, once everything was over and the, you know, the threats were, were pretty much eliminated and gone. They brought the embassy back, ambassador comes back in and, I mean, people go to Toronto, Albania on vacation. I mean, which is kind of, kind of funny, uh, you know, even like, you know, people go to Panama now. Uh, it's a great vacation spot. Uh, you know, when I was there, I never thought that like, who would want to come to Toronto, Albania?

• 1:48:12JD Baker?

  Uh, you know what I mean? But they were super nice people, uh, you know, beautiful part of the world, but just different, uh, than us.

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  Then what came after that?

• 1:48:22JD Baker?

  Uh, after that, I got, uh, went, I attended, uh, up at Quantico, I attended the advanced, they used to have an advanced sniper school, uh, up at Quantico. So I went through the advanced sniper school prior to that deployment. Uh, and the staff in COIC, uh, that was up there, uh, Bill Norton is the name, we call him Max. Um, Max is, uh, he asked me if I wanted to come back up to be an instructor at Quantico, uh, after that next deployment. And of course, you know, I was like, yeah. You know, I mean, going up to Quantico. So he brought me up there as an instructor. When I got done, so I was an instructor at Quantico. I took over as the chief instructor for the schoolhouse up at Quantico, which was, I mean, it's a, it was tons of fun.

• 1:49:07JD Baker?

  Just, I mean, you know, everybody that shows up, I mean, Sniper School, because they do the, we do the basic course, you do the advanced course, and then you do what's called the Sniper Employment Officer course. So the guys that are gonna be like in charge of sniper positions, we put them through a, like a Sniper Employment Package, two-week course, kind of the thing at Quantico. And, I mean, it was just a, it was a lot of fun. Just every day, I mean, the instructors, the students, it's just a lot of fun. It's a great package, you know, I mean, the stalking exercises is like fun, you know, I mean, that's like a, people should pay money to go do that. And, and then just the, you know, bury your ass in brass. I mean,

• 1:49:48JD Baker?

  you're gonna shoot a lot of ammo, you know, so. And, and as an instructor at that level, you know, I was the chief instructor. I expected that all the instructors on the cadre should be able to perform any of the skill sets at any given time, 365 day, you know, when the, when the kids would come in to run the physical fitness test, I expected the instructors out there, running right along with the students. You know, that kind of an aspect of, you know, even though we've got mine, you know, a lot of times people, you know, I got mine, let's make it harder for the next guy. You know, I mean, the training schedule alone is hard enough. You don't have to.

• 1:50:25Jocko Willink?

  How long is the, how long is the Sniper Course?

• 1:50:27JD Baker?

  It's like 12 weeks.

• 1:50:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's freaking no joke.

• 1:50:30JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a.

• 1:50:32Jocko Willink?

  Is that the Sniper Course for the whole Marine Corps? That's it?

• 1:50:35JD Baker?

  Well, we've got Quantico, then you got Camp Lejeune, you got Pendleton. So right up here at Pendleton, they, they run the basic course four times a year.

• 1:50:41Jocko Willink?

  And how long is the basic course?

• 1:50:43JD Baker?

  It's the 12-week.

• 1:50:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:50:44JD Baker?

  And then they, they got rid of the advanced course. Matter of fact, they got rid of the basic, like, it's all, and I'm sure it's better. Like better now than whatever we were doing. Uh, you know, cause uh, we were still back in the, probably in the Hathcock days. You know what I mean of the, the white feather, you know, the Chuck Mulhaney, you know, we're gonna, you know, the stalking and uh, which stalking is a, uh, I would say stalking is, it's patrolling. It's just on the ground. It's a different perspective. Uh, you know, stalking, uh, you learn so much from just laying with your face sucking the earth of what we call skull dragging.

• 1:51:25Jocko Willink?

  You might be the first person that I've heard say stalking was fun. Like most guys that go through the SEAL sniper course, they're like, stalking is not fun.

• 1:51:34JD Baker?

  I would, I, it, cause it's kind of, it's a game.

• 1:51:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:38JD Baker?

  You know, you're going up against a guy that's a trained observer and they're on glass. And the ability for you to be able to come in to, you know, 200 yards, you know what I mean? Get two rounds off, undetected and stalk out.

• 1:51:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 1:51:52JD Baker?

  I mean, it's a, it's just, it's amazing of the ability to hide, blend and deceive. Uh, is, is pretty cool. And if you understand how that all works, I mean, you don't even need a ghillie suit. You could be literally naked and, and stalk if you understand how, uh, you know, this, the stalking of blending, backdrop, you know, the cover. Uh, so it was, it was a lot of fun. Plus you just get a lot of really good Marines. Uh, we used to get advanced course. We'd have Navy SEALs come through. We'd have Army Rangers come through up there. Uh, British Royal Commando, we actually have a British Royal on the staff at Quantico. Uh, we have a really good relationship, uh, with the Brits. Um, so it's just a, you know, it's a, it's a fun time when you've got like

• 1:52:36JD Baker?

  24 great Americans, uh, that just wanna shoot bolt guns, uh, you know what I mean? And look through glass. It's just a fun time. Uh, everybody's there with a, with a purpose. Like there's not, you know, the leadership aspect is kind of gone. You don't necessarily, you lead by example. Uh, you know what I mean? Like when I'm looking at an instructor, you know, if I walk in on training day one and the instructor looks like a sea bag with lips and the first thing he's gonna tell me how he used to be a badass. You know what I mean? Dude, you're 33 years old. You know what I mean? Like, nobody's old here. You know what I mean? You know, but in that military, you think of, man, that guy's an old man. You know what I mean? He's 34, brother. You know what I mean? Like, you

• 1:53:20JD Baker?

  should be in the prime in your 30s. So, you know, I always liked that about the snipers and even the Wisconsin School that's up the road up here. I'm sure it's the same with BUDs. I mean, the instructors that are there, you know, you're just looking at them. And I mean, they just, they look the part.

• 1:53:36Jocko Willink?

  They're better, yeah.

• 1:53:37JD Baker?

  Yeah. I mean, and they can do anything that they're asking the student to do, which is a super cool way of that, that leadership and then holding yourself accountable to be, to being able to, to perform at any given time.

• 1:53:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So where are you when September 11th happens? Is this where you're at? Is this where you're stationed when September 11th happens?

• 1:54:00JD Baker?

  Yep. I'm up at Quantico. That's why I call it, the world changed in nine miles. We got the students off and I went, there's a loop up at Quantico over where Sniper School is. You can run over by TV.

• 1:54:13Jocko Willink?

  When you say you got the students off, what do you mean? You cut them loose?

• 1:54:15JD Baker?

  No, no, no. Like, they're just, you know, they get them in in the morning. They're gonna go to the reins. They're gonna do an observation exercise. They're gonna do, you know what I mean? There's another instructor that has them. Cause you know, on the instructor cadre, you kind of have to manage your time of, you know, obviously I had to be there when the students are there as the chief instructor. And then we got to get the day going. If I'm on the platform first, if I'm, so, and I always enjoy getting a run in, you know, throughout the day. Get a, get a chance to work out, go to the pool, do something. So that, that day on September 11th, we got, you know, we got students on deck. We get them off and going. And, and I take off over towards the FBI Academy. So I'm right over there by the FBI Academy and, and the basic school. And there's a nine mile loop that goes around. And, and I, I take off. I let the guys know, hey, man, I'm gonna go for

• 1:54:59JD Baker?

  a run. I'm gonna run the loop. And they know exactly where I'm going. And so I'm off and running and as I'm making my way in and around over by what they they have called Lake Lunga that's over at Quantico next to the FBI Academy and I'm coming in and I'm seeing like a lot of aircraft like flying around. Yeah, the FBI always has like stuff going on. They got the hostage rescue team that's there as well. But then it's just like

• 1:55:26Jocko Willink?

  Aircraft like helos?

• 1:55:27JD Baker?

  Yeah, helos and stuff like it's a lot of activity which is that but then all the black vehicles are just leaving the FBI compound. And yeah, because you got it. That's the funny thing about like at Quantico that day before we used to not have gates. You could literally drive up I-95 and pull off the exit and drive straight on to range four with the sniper students laying right there on the range and you didn't go through a gate. You didn't nobody checked your ID card. Nothing. There was just no gates. And so I'm running back and I'm seeing all these vehicles fly out. And by the time I get back to the schoolhouse, it's kind of like, you know, I'm like, what the what the hell is going on? And that's

• 1:56:12JD Baker?

  when, you know, the Pentagon's being hit, you know, New York 9/11 is being hit and it's just like it's it's game on. And the world changed in nine miles. I mean, within a nine mile run, man, the world completely changed. We had sandbags, barracks. I mean, they're man and gates, they're making gates. I mean, it was it was total anarchy in Quantico. And as you can imagine, I mean, being so close to the Pentagon of them hitting the Pentagon, they got guys that are coming in, you know, they're wanting to know like, how can Marines support? And that that kind of was odd to me that like, we didn't have authorization to go out to like, help. You know what I mean? Like, you got all these Marines, you

• 1:56:56JD Baker?

  got all these folks like, why aren't Marines like, you know what I mean? Bring the Marines in. But then you have to look at it as like, the event's over.

• 1:57:05JD Baker?

  Like, you know, I mean, they flew them into the buildings. You know, we're all thinking like, what's kind of next? That was it. That was the big event. And, you know, after that, then everybody knew at that point in time, it's go time. We're, you know, and the Marines are, you know, Army, I'm sure with you guys with the teams, like, everybody's watching, thinking, you know, when are we going to deploy? When's the first action is going to start coming in? But yeah, I was at, I was at Quantico.

• 1:57:38Jocko Willink?

  So then what, what happens after that?

• 1:57:42JD Baker?

  Well, I had met, met a couple of guys

• 1:57:47JD Baker?

  through being up there at Sniper School. And there was, there was a certain unit. And I was hoping to get selection into that. It's kind of, you know, one of the guys recommended me. So I went in, I went through recommendations and, and with that, they needed a place for me to kind of hang out. And await selection like in the National Capital Region. So John Allen was the coming on a midshipman at the Naval Academy. And I had, I'd known him from down in the six Marines. And, you know, John Allen was like, yeah, hey, I'll take JD, bring him up to the Naval Academy. And of course I was like, you know, I'm going to the Naval Academy. Like I'd, I'd never been to Annapolis, Maryland a day in my life.

• 1:58:30JD Baker?

  I didn't, I mean, I knew the academy, but like my perception of a Naval Academy graduate was Doug Zembeck. Like, that's what I expected. And then my other guy that I worked with at Sniper School was John Bradley. John Bradley was a three-time National Boxing Champ at the Academy. His call sign was Big People. You know, half-black, half-German. I mean, the dude was like Rambo. You know what I mean? He's, I'm still really good friends with John Brad. He's a great human being. But, you know, I used to make fun of them like, you know, because he'd wear like Navy boxing and, you know, and of course Doug was a Navy wrestler.

• 1:59:13JD Baker?

  And I was like, dude, I want my taxpaying dollars back. Like, there's no way you guys went to the Naval Academy. But that's my perception of the Naval Academy. You know, the officers that I had dealt with.

• 1:59:26JD Baker?

  Were they come out of the Naval Academy. They were they were top notch. Um, so that was that was my perception going in. Uh, I remember when when I when I went up to check into the Naval Academy, like again, I didn't know where it was. I just knew it was in Annapolis. So I'm driving around Annapolis. I get over top of the Severn Bridge. And I'm I'm looking down, but I think it's like it looks like the state Capitol. And there's like two women that are walking across the bridge. And I'm like, excuse me, ladies, do you guys like know where the Naval Academy is? And they're laughing like, dude, that's it. I was like, wow. Like, that's next level. Like, I mean, it's it's impressive. Uh, so I went down and and I and checked in to the Academy.

• 2:00:11JD Baker?

  And, you know, John Allen and at first they really didn't have a job for me to do because like the the the midshipman had already started. Uh, and I really didn't know like what I was getting into. Like, I didn't know like what they do at the Naval Academy.

• 2:00:26Jocko Willink?

  And your anticipation is that you're waiting to go to selection for a special mission unit? And you're going to be there for six months or something and then you'll roll out?

• 2:00:33JD Baker?

  Yep, that that's my mindset. And and you know, and and John Allen, uh, you know, great guy, wicked smart. I was super excited because the library at the Naval Academy is off the chain. I mean, like, it's off the chain. And I, you know what I mean? I I love a library. Uh, you know what I mean? I get the so I mean, there's a lot of history up there. I mean, Tecumseh Court. Uh, you know what I mean? Like, they got Tecumseh. You know what I mean? And, uh, so it was it was a bit of a rude of awakening. Like, so the first morning, kind of like, you know, this morning, I got up. You know what I mean? I'm gonna go for a run. So that's how I like to like get myself like situational awareness of like get orientated is is run.

• 2:01:13JD Baker?

  So I'll run around. So I'm running around Annapolis, looking at the town and stuff, and I make my way back in and I'm on Tecumseh Court. And as I'm in Tecumseh Court, I'm standing there, I'm looking. I mean, they got like monuments like all over the place. I mean, the chapel's there. It's pretty banging. They got like a bunch of different poles and they got Tecumseh. And and I'm looking at Tecumseh. Next thing you know, like, there's this Navy officer. He's like, hey, hey, what are you doing? And I wasn't wearing anything except Marines on it. And he's like, hey, you're not allowed to be out here in PT gear. I was like, am I not on a military installation like with the Navy? We don't like to PT and you

• 2:01:54JD Baker?

  don't want us to say like, it was like, it was odd, like the rules that they had there at the academy and, and you know, John Allen sent me over with the football team.

• 2:02:04Jocko Willink?

  Where couldn't you be with that with PT uniform on?

• 2:02:06JD Baker?

  I don't know. They didn't like PT gear being out there in Tecumseh Court, like where they do like.

• 2:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Specifically Tecumseh Court?

• 2:02:13JD Baker?

  Yeah, it's like a, I guess it's a ceremonial area. Like you're supposed to be like in the Marine Corps, like everywhere is a PT area. You know what I mean? Like you can PT wherever you want. You know what I mean? Like I'd never been told, don't be out in front of people in this area in PT gear. Uh, so that, that was kind of odd. And then, uh, you know, so I went over with the football team, uh, cause at first I was like, oh, you know, college football and I asked the coaches like, hey, is this like open practice? Is it cool if I watch? You know what I mean? They were like, yeah, dude, you know, you can come over and watch. And it was Coach Paul Johnson at the time, uh, and the strength coach and stuff. And I went over there and, uh, you know,

• 2:02:53JD Baker?

  the, the kids on the, on the football team, uh, I would say, um, you know, I felt out of place at, at the Naval Academy. Like, like I didn't belong, like there's no Marines in the brochure and there's definitely no Marine gunnies in the brochure. Uh, there were other gunnies that were there, but like you said, I mean, I was there. I, I just come from sniper school. I have, but I had a, a different outlook, uh, than a lot of the other folks. Uh, and so when I was over there, like the, the midshipman on the football team, like they, they immediately came over and started talking to me, asking me, you know, like, hey, who are you? What are you doing? Cause I wasn't in uniform and I was like, yeah, hey, I'm, I'm gunny. And that's how I introduced

• 2:03:35JD Baker?

  myself to like Coach Paul Johnson and them. And I think like, cause the coaches aren't military. So I think they thought like my first name was Gunny and still to this day they call me Gunny. Yeah. Which I don't care. Uh, you know what I mean? It's, uh, and, and the football players and I mean, I got to stand out there and watch some of these kids that are going to compete on division one level, uh, and they join the, the academy with not really a lot of hopes of, of going to the NFL. Um, but the, the, the kids on the team, uh, and, and the athletes that are there at the academy, the midshipmen are, I mean, they're just, they are really good people. You know, I look at them just like they joined, they just read a different brochure than I did

• 2:04:19JD Baker?

  and obviously scored like way higher on the SAT because I never took that test. You know what I mean? But they were like really, really good kids at the academy.

• 2:04:31JD Baker?

  And I just had a phenomenal experience being there with the midshipman. They welcomed me with open arms. The midship, I had more fun.

• 2:04:41Jocko Willink?

  So what job did you actually get assigned?

• 2:04:43JD Baker?

  I ended up being a senior enlisted advisor for 30th company.

• 2:04:48Jocko Willink?

  So there's, how many companies are there?

• 2:04:49JD Baker?

  There's 30.

• 2:04:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:04:50JD Baker?

  Yeah. And obviously 30th company had like a bad rap before I got there. You know what I mean? So they had them living on zero deck, right next to the Bado, the battalion officer. Well, the battalion officer was a guy named Alan Eschbach. And Alan Eschbach, great guy, went to Millersville State up in Pennsylvania, ran cross country. And he was a Navy captain. And I had never really been around a Navy captain. You know, I mean, not a lot of them, you know, I didn't interact with the ship's captain when I was. He didn't come down to cell block and hang out and slap spades. You know, so Alan Eschbach, he'd see me up running, you know what I mean?

• 2:05:32JD Baker?

  And he ran cross country. He was a surface warfare officer. He had the Arlie Burke. You know, he ended up taking over the San Jacinto. And, you know, I already kind of mentioned my kind of like being a ship's captain has got to be like a cool job. Well, so Alan started coming running with me in the morning. And, and he lived right there on the yard and like these, these battalion officers, the houses that they get on the naval academy are pretty banging. And he would have me over for dinner and stuff. I got to know his wife, his kids. I mean, he was just a super nice guy. And, and so I ended up having this relationship with this, this Navy, this Navy captain. And he was just a great guy. We were really good friends and we're still friends to this day.

• 2:06:15JD Baker?

  And he was about ready to roll out to go take over the USS San Jack. And as he was leaving, we were getting a new battalion officer coming in and he's like, hey, he's like JD is there? Which was kind of cool. The captain would call me JD. And, and he was like, hey, he's like, is there anything I can do for you like before I leave? And I was like, yeah, can you move 30th company up to eight, four? So it's the highest point at the Navy. Nobody goes to eight, four. Plus the midshipmen that have to walk the class every day, they're gonna have to walk all the way to eight, four, like every single day. And you have the midshipmen have to chop. They call that chopping where they like run and say, go Navy, beat Army. And did you see him when you were up there speaking like they do this?

• 2:07:00Jocko Willink?

  Punishment or is that just standard operating?

• 2:07:02JD Baker?

  Just standard operating proceeds. Like I didn't know what they were doing.

• 2:07:05Jocko Willink?

  Like wait, just when you're going from class to class, every time you square a corner or something, you gotta say like, go Army, go Navy, beat Army, something like that?

• 2:07:12JD Baker?

  Yeah. And they, they call it chopping. So it's like they're running and they're in dress shoes, which makes absolutely no sense, but.

• 2:07:19Jocko Willink?

  Sense is kind of thrown out the window.

• 2:07:20JD Baker?

  Sense is thrown out the window. So I'm watching these kids like, and they're calling it chopping. And I'm like, hmm, interesting. You know what I mean? Go Navy, beat Army. Okay. I got it. So that's a lot of chopping to get up to the top of eight, four. You know what I mean? So, and then I knew nobody would come visit me. People are just lazy. You know what I mean? Like nobody's going to come up to eight, four. I'm going to live up on eight, four. It's going to be great.

• 2:07:42Jocko Willink?

  So eight, four is a building?

• 2:07:44JD Baker?

  Yeah. Eight, four is like Bancroft Hall. Like when you saw Bancroft, I was all the way in the very back. So I was the farthest away from Tecumseh Court as possible, and I was the closest to the football locker as possible. And you know, the, uh, the athletes and the, and being assigned up there. I, it was a great place to be as a, as a senior enlisted. Because like, I'm not teaching these kids. Like if you're an officer and you gotta get like, I was there with Randall. Lieutenant Randall was there. Uh, you know what I mean? He was a company officer and like company officers have to like teach stuff.

• 2:08:23JD Baker?

  Like they gotta go over to academia and teach double E or they gotta like do stuff. I'm not teaching double E. You know what I mean? And you know, they're not gonna, alls I gotta do is like, is just hang out.

• 2:08:36Jocko Willink?

  Like a full-time mentor.

• 2:08:37JD Baker?

  Yeah. And hang out and just be there for the kids if they need anything. And, and, uh, and I work with a Navy lieutenant, great guy. Uh, it, it was a lot of fun, but I mean, so when the kids go to class, it's like, you got nothing to do, but you've got an Olympic pool. You've got batting cages. You've got football cages. You've got an indoor track. You've got a sailing center. You got soccer fields. You got a rifle team. You got like. Dude, I didn't, it was at camp. I mean, I've literally, it was, I was back at camp, except like, they have like the best facilities, like known to man. I'd go out and throw BP for the baseball. I'd go out and do, you know, batting practice and I'd just get to know the kids. Uh, you know, they were going through and if they had questions about, you know, joining the Marine Corps and stuff like that.

• 2:09:21JD Baker?

  And then especially with the football team. Uh, the one thing that I learned there is like, you know, the football players don't have to do like the, the Friday parades and they get out of a lot of other stuff. They do their own meals and stuff. And I, I think that, you know, there's a lot of folks that don't understand what it takes to compete at division one level football. Uh, you know what I mean? Like.

• 2:09:43Jocko Willink?

  Do other athletes get out of that stuff too?

• 2:09:46JD Baker?

  No, not like football gets out. Uh, and I wouldn't really say.

• 2:09:50Jocko Willink?

  What about the wrestlers?

• 2:09:51JD Baker?

  No.

• 2:09:53Jocko Willink?

  Soccer players?

• 2:09:54JD Baker?

  No.

• 2:09:54Jocko Willink?

  So it's just football?

• 2:09:56JD Baker?

  Yeah. They, I mean, the other, like the other sports teams, if they've got a game, they'll get out of something. But like football is, is looked at, I mean, is looked at different, uh, at the academy. And then you're hiring a coach, like Coach Paul Johnson, I mean, he came from Georgia Tech. Great guy. He's the highest paid guy in the Navy. Like this dude makes more than the CNO. This is like the head coach at Army makes more than the chief of staff of the Army, which kind of puts stuff into perspective. You know what I mean? Like, well, wait a minute, man. Like I can make more money being the head coach at Navy than the CNO. You know what I mean? Like, like this dude's driving a nuclear submarine. You know what I mean?

• 2:10:39JD Baker?

  But the football coach, and it's just like, you know, Ken Niemott that's there right now, great guy. He was the O-line coach when I was there and the coaches are just doing a job. They get hired to do a job. Compete at the division one level, pack the stands and the football team, because of the, the amount of money that they make, you know, at stadiums, ticket sales, stuff like that, pays for a lot of the other sports programs to be able to take place.

• 2:11:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's gotta be recruiting too. They probably take recruiting budgets, probably paying that coach's salary.

• 2:11:06JD Baker?

  Yeah. So, uh, and the coaches are great and the kids that they get on that football team. I mean, you know, people are like, oh, they get out of the Friday afternoon herd across the grass. Uh, you know what I mean? Like really? They're up at five o'clock in the morning. They gotta watch films. They got tapes. They got practice. They got weights. They got, I mean. They have to perform, you know what I mean, on Saturday, you know, their weekends, their Thanksgivings, if they get a bowl game, you know, what they sacrifice to be able to play Division One football and then go serve their country, just like everybody else. So they're just there on a different aspect. I think some of the folks just don't, they don't look at it that way. But the student athletes at the academy are phenomenal. They're just,

• 2:11:48JD Baker?

  one, the team players, you know what I mean? Like, if you leave a team sport from the academy and join the Marine Corps, it's a very easy transition. Because you're just leaving one team, and you're just joining another team. And the athletes transition really well into the Marine Corps. And, you know, I just think that the kids that were on the team, I mean, they, I had like, a lot of fun with those kids. And then, you know, some of them, when they select Marines at the end of the year, you got like, O-line guys, you got defensive line guys that have never run farther than 100 yards in their life. And now it's the end of football season, and oh, hey, by the way, you got to meet height and weight standards by May.

• 2:12:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's hard for some of the guys that go to BUDS. You know, they got to like, totally change their physique. Like, they got to become a different kind of human being. Like, I got one friend that was at the Naval Academy, played football. And I don't want to say his nickname, but he's a big guy. And even when I know him, he's a big guy, like, like a big guy. But apparently, I didn't know him when he played football, but he had to like, change who he was as a human being to get from playing whatever freaking lineman at the Naval Academy to go and run, you know, 12 miles, and four miles, and six miles, and, you know, like, all that running. It's just a total, you're a different human. Yeah, that's a challenge.

• 2:13:15JD Baker?

  Yeah, and you got to teach them how to run. Like, you know, it's, some of them just, they don't, I mean, there's a big difference between sprinting 100 yards and running three miles. And then, oh, by the way, you're going to go to TBS. You know what I mean, especially if you go Marines, but even if they're, if they're going, you know, surface warfare, going, I mean, that's a big transition for a lot of those guys that are out there and, you know, and I would run them in a mile and a half. The only thing that I could do, my biggest shock when I was at the academy was like, I was talking to some of the midshipmen, one of them was, it was Jason Copeland. He's a Marine Lieutenant Colonel now. He's an infantry battalion commander. Great human being. So Jason, I was like, hey, what do you

• 2:14:00JD Baker?

  guys got going on tomorrow morning? Like you guys got your physical fitness test, I heard. Cause I didn't know like what these kids did. And he's like, yeah, we'll meet out by the, by the Farragut and, you know, the PT department takes care of, of the, the physical fitness test and they run the PRT. And I was like, oh yeah, what is it? You know what I mean? Okay. Well, we do, you know, pushups, situps, and then we do a mile and a half run. I was like, okay, that's cool. What time do you go? I, I'd like to come out. Well, most of the staff there, like, why, it's early in the morning. Like, why, why are you gunning? Why are you, you don't have to go. I was like, well, I know I don't have to go, but I should go and run with the

• 2:14:38JD Baker?

  kids. So I, I showed up and they do each battalion. So there's six battalions and each battalion gets a day and they show up and there's, you know, five battalions and, or five companies in each battalion, they're going to run five physical readiness tests. So I, I show up and, and, you know, they're only going to run a mile and a half. So, you know, so for me, I was like, well, I asked the PE guy, like, do you, do you care if I like run with them? Am I allowed to run with them? You know what I mean? Like I'll do a 1030 pace, just run along and, you know, what I mean? Kind of give the kids a, an earmark of like where I'm at. Cause I used to do that at sniper school. Like if I, I'd run the three mile and I'm like, hey, I'm going to run right at a,

• 2:15:22JD Baker?

  of what is a 2030 pace. So for three miles, I'm going to run it in 20 minutes and 30 seconds because that's worth 85 points. So if you see JD, he's worth 85 points. If you're in front of me, you know, because it's all the numbers game. If you're not good at pull-ups, you better bank it on the run. If you're not, you know what I mean? So it's your strengths and weaknesses. So I was like, you know, and I was like, okay, this is the naval academy. Like it's only a mile and a half. You got to do it in 1030. That's a seven minute pace, man. It's pretty easy. So. As I'm out there and I'm watching the kids and I'm running along with them, you know, kind of going along and I'm like, hey, where, where, where are these guys going? Like they're falling out. Like where it's only a mile and a half and they're falling out. And I was just like, well, they, they failed. Like they didn't pass the run. So I go over to the PE department

• 2:16:07JD Baker?

  and I'm kind of like, so what happens to these kids, man? They like packed their shit. They done? And they're like, no, remediate. You know what I mean? They're going to remediate the hell out of them. And, and I always thought like, well, this is something that I could help out. You know, I can, I can come out and run with these kids. And so I used to go run when they'd do the PRTs for the, for the brigade of midshipmen. I would run 30 of them back to back at a 1030 pace. And I was like, you know, only five a day though.

• 2:16:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:16:40JD Baker?

  So you know what I mean? It's really not that hard. It's only like eight, eight and a half miles. You know what I mean? And, and for me, I'm not a runner. I just have a running problem. You know what I mean? So for me, like that, that seven minute pace was, you know, it's a pretty good workout for me. I'd come out and I would run with the kids and kind of, you know what I mean? And, and, you know, kind of help them and push them. Like if they're going to fall back, this is something that I can actually, you know, help out with the Naval Academy. If there's a kid struggling with a mile and a half, I can help him out and get him to pass so that, you know, because once he goes to the fleet and he's in the Navy, that's not a requirement. 1030 is not a requirement in the fleet. It's just a Naval Academy requirement for officers. So, but hopefully, so I used

• 2:17:23JD Baker?

  to do that with the kids and I would get excited, you know what I mean? To go out and run the, the PRTs with the midshipmen. Cause I mean, it was hysterical. Just, you know, watching them for that mile and a half.

• 2:17:35Jocko Willink?

  How is the, the psychological molding of the guys or their people or their kids that are going to the Naval Academy compared to what you saw at boot camp?

• 2:17:49JD Baker?

  Well, it's, uh, yeah, there's, there, it's, it's the country club. Yeah, I would say it's kinda like being a Catholic school and you're just a nun. You know what I mean? You're a nun.

• 2:18:02JD Baker?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's not, yeah, it's night and day. You know, they do, uh, plebe summer, uh, that's there. But it's the, it's the, the upper class are kinda running plebe summer and they do, I mean, they do a pretty good job. But they're not drill instructors. You know what I mean? They're not smoking it out. They're not, you know, the, the shock and awe isn't as much. But, uh, they, they do a, they do a pretty good job with them at, at, uh, at plebe summer. And, you know, and being a plebe at the Naval Academy to me was like, dude, that just does not look like fun.

• 2:18:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it looks awful.

• 2:18:32JD Baker?

  Like at all. One, I gotta say, go Navy, beat Army and chop around the place in my dress shoes. Uh, you know, I, no liberty. I, I don't get to really do anything. I, I, uh, the knowledge that they push on those kids there though, and the, and the education level is phenomenal. And then I would say like the, the camaraderie of, of the, of each class, uh, is just, is outstanding. Uh, with the Naval Academy of, of bringing those kids together, you know, sharing and, and this, and the suffering together. Uh, all four years at the academy. Uh, but it is a, it's a great institution and they put out a, a great product. In my opinion, uh, probably the, the best to watch was, uh,

• 2:19:17JD Baker?

  the ones that wanted to go special warfare, Navy SEALs. Uh, that was the most, while I was there, uh, you know, uh, Randall was a lieutenant. Uh, and he kinda ran that, uh, pre-buds kind of selection process there.

• 2:19:31Jocko Willink?

  Tight selection.

• 2:19:32JD Baker?

  Oh, it is the most, I mean, he's got like a couple of hundred kids that wanna be. I mean, there's only a thousand of them.

• 2:19:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:38JD Baker?

  And a couple of hundred of them wanna become a SEAL.

• 2:19:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And there's like 15 billets, something like that, 15 slots.

• 2:19:44JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:45Jocko Willink?

  And, yeah, I've been, it's always been cool. Uh, I've done, during COVID, I did some, um, some virtual training with the, with the midshipmen. I've gone there live. It's been awesome to go up there live and, and just, you know, talk about leadership from my perspective and they're definitely stoked on it. Very cool. But yeah, that competitiveness for the SEAL billets in any, whether you're ROT, in the, any of the officer SEAL billets is. It's hard. It's very, very difficult. Probably, well, because the recruiting, because so many people want to go into to that

• 2:20:19Jocko Willink?

  job. And it's a rough job to get into.

• 2:20:22JD Baker?

  Yeah, I would say, yeah. Uh, I, but what those kids would, you know, the thing that that I learned while I was there was kind of disappointing for me being a Marine. Um, was the, the Marine selection. So you would have like, you know, I mean, let's say you got a hundred kids that put, they want to go Navy SEALs as their number one choice. And then Marine ground is their second. And you would have Marines that were up on the article. That's bullshit. You know, I mean, if they're not Marine first, we don't want, I'm like, these kids are going after, like if, if JD was there.

• 2:20:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:54JD Baker?

  Who wouldn't? It's the Naval Academy, man. Like, I mean, they want to go Navy SEAL. They're going to compete for the hardest billet going.

• 2:21:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:03JD Baker?

  You know, at least physically.

• 2:21:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's actually another way to look at it is, hey, these guys want the hardest possible job and they're trying to get in the heart, the, the most selective thing. So they're taking the most selective thing. That's the SEAL billet. If they don't get that, yeah, because that is horrible. And I had, I've had a bunch of friends, you know, that graduated from the Naval Academy that had to make that call. And it's so hard. I mean, Leif didn't get selected out of the Naval Academy. Seth didn't get selected out of the, and they both went to, you know, a ship. And that's a different personality type that is going to be a, a ship, a swell. It's a different hu, it's a different type of mindset. Then someone that's going to be some kind of a land soldier, you know, whether it's a Marine or a special operations guy, it's a different type of mindset you have to have.

• 2:21:49Jocko Willink?

  And so both, I forget, I have to ask Leif again, but you know, he got told the same thing. He's like, hey, there's, it's, it's a waste to put Marine Corps after SEALs because you're just not going to get taken. And Leif, you know, would have loved if he didn't make it in the SEALs, but you know.

• 2:22:07Jocko Willink?

  He probably would have gotten picked up for the Marine Corps and probably would have never joined the SEAL teams and the Marine Corps would have had a cool officer.

• 2:22:12JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's kinda like, I knew a lot of these kids, like, they would come out and like, cause I would run every morning at five. You know what I mean? So I'd go run and, and I ran a lot, like, they had a marathon team that was there at the academy. So I became like the O rep for them. So like the Naval Academy would like fly us around. So I mean, we're doing Chicago, we're doing Boston, we're doing Disney, you know what I mean? Like with the midshipmen and, and you know, and if they knew that like midshipmen can't leave the yard, but if they're running with me, then they're allowed to just say, I'm with Gunny, you know what I mean? And they, right out the gate, we'd go run through town. So they're not just doing like outers around the academy and stuff. And, and you would see just the commitment that those kids had that are trying to compete

• 2:22:57JD Baker?

  for those billets, to include the EOD billets as well that are coming out as a, you know, as a naval officer to get those billets are very hard to get. And for us to like miss out on some of those guys and gals that, okay, that's great that they put Navy SEAL or whatever for the first choice, they want Marines second choice. Like, they're gonna be good, like, you know what I mean? Like, that, and they let me sit in on one of these selection boards, which was very, I'd never been on an officer selection.

• 2:23:25Jocko Willink?

  SEAL selection board?

• 2:23:26JD Baker?

  No, no, no, Marines.

• 2:23:27Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:23:28JD Baker?

  And everybody's got like these little hidden buttons, you know what I mean? Of whether or not like you wanna vote, like yes or no, which I kinda thought was bullshit, that we're kinda hiding the button. Like, dude, you could put my button right out in front of everybody, you know what I mean? Like, nope, don't like that one, everybody can see, you know what I mean? That, oh, JD doesn't like him, nope, don't like him. And, you know, we had this, this, this one kid, and he's a nice, he's, he was a nice kid, but there's a lot of nice kids that shouldn't be a Marine officer. And this, this, this guy, like, we're in there, and Colonel Lindman was the senior Marine on the yard at the time, and Colonel Lindman, great guy, went to the University of Oklahoma, just a phenomenal guy, and he's the one that had me in there.

• 2:24:10JD Baker?

  He's like, yeah, hey, JD, we'd like your input, you know a lot of these kids, you know what I mean? I was like, okay, yeah, cool, I've, I've never been in here before. So I'm sitting there looking and they gotta show a picture and somebody's gonna brief their package kinda thing, and, and then you do the little hidden vote, and then, you know, they see on the board, okay, yeah, this guy got enough votes, he's gonna go in the go pile. So he's just gonna go into Gopal. They got this one kid that that they put up on there. And I'm like, oh, this guy, nice kid, sea bag with lips, man. Like, TBS is gonna crush him. You know what I mean? Like, he's the the heart's there. It's just, you know, he's just, he's not gonna work out as a marine officer. You know what I mean? He doesn't put the, he doesn't have the self-discipline. So, of course, I hit the no. And he goes to the Gopal.

• 2:24:56JD Baker?

  So I'm a little shocked. So I was like, yeah, excuse me, sir. Like, who who voted for that guy? It's like, does anybody here like know him? Like, no shit? Like, you know, the guy? Like, I've seen him out there on the remedial physical fitness field. You know what I mean? Trying to pass a 1030. Like, I looked at it as if if we're gonna stamp a kid with the little N star from the Naval Academy, we're gonna send him down to TBS, then all of my peers that know that I'm at the Naval Academy are like, oh, this is JD's guys. You know what I mean? I don't want JD's name on this guy because he's not gonna fare well when they do the physical fitness aspects. And he's like, well, I mean, it's a, it's a, you know, we don't disclose who's voting.

• 2:25:41JD Baker?

  And I was just like, I mean, I'm being serious. Like, does anybody know this kid? Like, I know this kid. Like, he's, we're setting him up for failure. And basically, Colonel Lemon says, well, JD, he's, he's legacy. And I'm like, okay, well, that's a new one. What's, what's legacy? Well, his dad was a marine officer. So then I was like, okay, so we're getting flounder. Remember at Animal House when, you know, they they took flounder because he was legacy? I was like, so we're gonna get flounder in the Marine Corps because of legacy? I I thought that was kinda, I mean, my dad scouted Major League Baseball. Do I get in just because of the legacy? You know what I mean? Like, that shouldn't, that was a, that was a little bit disappointing to see that, I mean,

• 2:26:26JD Baker?

  That should not play a role. It should play a role. If anything, they should be harder on him. You would think. Yeah. So, but other than that, you know, I got the coolest coolest thing that happened to me while I was there. I was coming out, football practice. It was a class of 2000, a year of 2005. And a couple of the football players were like, hey, they were like, Gunny, hey, man, you're gonna graduate with us.

• 2:26:49JD Baker?

  I was like, what do you mean? I'm gonna graduate what in like, physical fitness? You know what I mean? Like, they're giving me a PE award and stuff. He's like, nope. We voted you to be our honorary graduate and graduate with the class 2005. And it's it's voted by the midshipman. Uh, which was like, that's that was the coolest. That's the coolest thing I've ever.

• 2:27:08Jocko Willink?

  What kind of people do they normally vote for that?

• 2:27:10JD Baker?

  Not gunnies. Uh, you know what I mean? Like, I I did a little bit of like, it's normally like some professor or some other officer, you know what I mean? Kind of of a of a thing.

• 2:27:22Jocko Willink?

  So you're a class of 2005?

• 2:27:23JD Baker?

  Class of 05. Love them. Yeah. Uh, I I just went to a Marine Corps ball with Lieutenant Colonel Adam Horn. Uh, he's got a 53 squadron down at Cherry Point. And when he became the squadron CO, he he called me and he's like, hey, you know, hey, JD, I want you to be the the guest speaker at our ball. I'm like, you know what I mean? He goes, I'm finally in charge and I get to pick the guy coming. And I was like, dude, I was never like in the airway. Don't get too shits. You're coming. Because because, you know, and when I was down there with him, I mean, it came for he's like, I I joined the Marines because of this guy. Yeah. And and it was great for one, for the enlisted Marines that were in his squadron to see an enlisted Marine having a relationship with their CO. That like, that we could be friends, man. Like, we're we're on the same team.

• 2:28:08JD Baker?

  Like, you know, it it's it's a it's a a great organization and and and great to be a part of. And then after that, I got accepted into the alumni with the Naval Academy. They allowed me in the alumni. Uh, so I'm an alumnus with the Quantico chapter.

• 2:28:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man.

• 2:28:25JD Baker?

  Yeah, which is.

• 2:28:26Jocko Willink?

  You're like a ring knocker. Did you get a ring?

• 2:28:28JD Baker?

  Uh, no, I didn't. Well, I got three of them. I got three bowl rings with the football team. Uh, yeah, I I did that. Uh, I'm really not a a ring guy. I had thought about it. Uh, you know, some of the folks at the academy were like, yeah, man, we gotta get gunny a ring. Uh, you know what I mean? And uh, but I tell you what, uh, that experience at the Naval Academy, I mean, uh, was, was phenomenal. Uh, I, I can't say enough, I mean, every, every organization has, has problems. Uh, but you know, for what those midshipmen do and for, for what they give, you know, they're getting a four-year education and, and the service that they give back, uh, and what the, some of the shit they gotta put up with up there.

• 2:29:09Jocko Willink?

  They make, they make them pay for that free education out there.

• 2:29:12JD Baker?

  Yeah, they're, they're paying for it, but they're like, I mean, they are quality Americans. Uh, they're, and that's all the, the, uh, service academies, I, I would say. I mean, they're just a, a, a great group of individuals. And I, I mean, I had a complete ball at the academy.

• 2:29:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it's, it, I've, I've gone to West Point and talked to them. I've gone to the Air Force Academy and talked to them. It's just, yeah, very cool, very cool, uh, thing to look at. What happened with the special mission unit you were gonna select for?

• 2:29:41JD Baker?

  Uh, well, uh, that, that in 2003, um, so they have what they call, uh, it's a leatherneck program where they take the midshipmen that want to select Marine Corps, uh, their junior year and they take them to Quantico, uh, because.

• 2:29:57Jocko Willink?

  Give them a little taste?

• 2:29:58JD Baker?

  Yeah, because they're the only, like, the Naval Academy doesn't have to go to OCS. Um, which, call it what you see, but that is a little bit of contention. I mean, you know, uh, OCS, uh, yeah, I think they, you know, they say, oh, well, we went to plebe summer. Well, guess what? Plebe summer is not Marine Corps Officer Candidate School. Uh, you know, as you know, it's not even Naval Officer Candidate.

• 2:30:23Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I mean, I don't know.

• 2:30:25JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:26Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I'm, I'm, you said, I know, I don't know. I know that Marine Corps OCS, or sorry, Navy OCS was, was cool and, uh, good indoctrination for me. I don't know how it compares to plebe summer or whatever. I don't know. But yeah, I'll take your word for it if you say it's not quite the same thing.

• 2:30:40JD Baker?

  Yeah, it's, uh.

• 2:30:41Jocko Willink?

  I can tell you, I'd rather go through OCS than four years of Naval Academy as far as just like grind.

• 2:30:47JD Baker?

  Yeah, any day of the week. Uh, you know, so like the, the Marine OCS, so you know, it's just like with anything else. They're gonna show up at TBS and, you know, oh, I had to go through OCS and, and you guys didn't have to go through OCS. There was a lot of midshipmen that wanted to go through OCS because they had heard, you know what I mean? And I was just like, look, guys, you know what I mean? So you don't go through OCS. Whoop-dee-shit. You know what I mean? You've had four years at the academy. Some of the folks that do go to OCS, they went to a regular college. They didn't have to put up with a lot of the crap that you guys are having to put up with while you're here. You had to do summer cruises. You're competing for the ability to be a marine officer, which is pretty cool. So we take them down to TBS and

• 2:31:30JD Baker?

  they call it Leatherneck. We call it purging the squid. Just because, you know, I mean, the Naval Academy is set up as a surface warfare officer school. I mean, that's, that's what it is. You're making surface warfare officers. And there's no Marines in the brochure. So we take them down there and we, you know, put them through a little bit of, you know, the land navigation, a little bit of the field skills stuff, a little bit of the fire team and squad patrolling kind of thing. And then they've got, you know, marine officers and they've got second lieutenants that just graduated TBS that work with the midshipmen. And they do evaluations on some of these kids to see how well they play with others. You know what I mean? How serious they are.

• 2:32:09Jocko Willink?

  How long is Leatherneck program?

• 2:32:11JD Baker?

  Leatherneck is, man, that's a good question. It might be like four to six weeks. It's really not that long. But neither is, neither is OCS. So they come down and they run through the Leatherneck program. And I got sent down to Quantico. To one, at first, there was a lot of contention because people were like, oh, you got to do plebe summer. Everybody comes here, you got to do plebe summer. And I was like, well, General Allen said I didn't have to do plebe summer and I'm going down to Quantico.

• 2:32:43Jocko Willink?

  What, just go watch plebe summer, basically, or monitor it?

• 2:32:46JD Baker?

  Yeah, like monitor it, work it as a senior enlisted. You know what I mean? It's kind of like, you know, indoctrination of being a senior enlisted. You know, there was, there were some cool guys that were up there at the academy, but I really wasn't into the whole chief's mess kind of thing. Like, I didn't want to go downtown Annapolis and do a pub crawl and, you know, that kind of stuff.

• 2:33:07JD Baker?

  So I didn't mix well with some of the other. I got along with a lot of the folks fine. I just, I didn't mix as well with a lot of the others. Some of them had that us versus them mentality. Us. Like us, the, the The staff. Versus the midshipman. Like, let's sit around and see how much we can like make is miserable. Like dude, these kids got it miserable enough, man. And they're here and just because they're coming to the academy and yeah, it's a good gig. I mean, they get a lot of cool stuff at the academy. You know, they got like a silver spoon coming out of every orifice of their body. I mean, you know, who else gets to go on like summer camping trips and you get to go with like an air wing unit, you get to fly over. I mean, they do some cool stuff at the academy.

• 2:33:52JD Baker?

  And I think it's just jealousy of, you know, there's a lot of chiefs, gunnies or, you know, uh, that didn't get that opportunity and they just want to stick it to the midshipmen as much as they can. And, you know, and like, like what they call like frying them, like basically like an NJP, but not NJP. They call it a fry. Well, all that's going to do to that kid. I mean, so the kid did something stupid. I mean, they're kids. That's going to hurt their order of merit. You know what I mean? Like unless they're doing something like grievous, you know what I mean? Like, like, come on, man. Like, you know, the kid was, you know, he's, he's a kid. A lot of times I think some of the folks forget that, that, you know, they didn't want to see JD when he was 18, 19.

• 2:34:35JD Baker?

  And so, you know, those kind of fucks, those us versus them mentality of, of with the midshipman. And I'll tell you what, the, the midshipman, they made my experience at the academy enjoyable. If it wasn't for them, uh, it wouldn't have been as fun. Like I had a ball. So, I ended up down at Leatherneck for the summer and they were going out to do semunitions. And you know, CQB stuff, you know, coming in, doing mount at the mount facility there. And you know, a couple of the guys, uh, well, the XO that was in charge, the major, uh, that was down there. Uh, his call sign was Pedro. He was a pilot. Great guy, uh, Major Brown. Uh, and he's like, hey, why don't you come out, man, and, and play simunitions with the midshipmen while they're kind of taking them through the mouth.

• 2:35:19JD Baker?

  So I was like, yeah, I'm there. Like, I love doing simunitions in mouth. I mean, it's fun. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, uh, so we're up there and, and I ended up getting up in the third story. Uh, and one of the rafters, uh, in one of the buildings and I'm making my way through, uh, the rafters, having a ball, shooting midshipmen.

• 2:35:39Jocko Willink?

  Sniper.

• 2:35:40JD Baker?

  Yeah. I mean, just, and I'm slick. So I got no helmet on. Yeah. I got nothing. I'm just, I'm having a ball. It's a great day. And then beams break. Uh, I came out of the, out of the third story, fell three stories and, uh, just hit like a sack of cement.

• 2:36:00Jocko Willink?

  Break of the rafters that you're in?

• 2:36:02JD Baker?

  Yeah. You know how like the rafters are, yeah. When you, when you go back and look at the raft, they were, you know, it's government. They were just put in with like long stables. So the rafters weren't, but necessarily like, uh, for me to get, they were kind of like, how did he even get in the rafters? Because like, when you went to the third story, there was just like a, a cutout, like, you know, you got like a, uh,

• 2:36:24Jocko Willink?

  Like a fake ceiling?

• 2:36:26JD Baker?

  Like a fake ceiling with the little cutout, like you have in some people's garages, you know what I mean? And you can push up and put a ladder in and put storage. So I just ran and hit the wall, jumped up, grabbed, pulled myself up and got up into the rafters. You know what I mean? So yeah, I got up there. Uh, and then once I was up in there, I was coming out and turkey peaking, trying to figure out where the midshipmen were moving around in the town. And I put my hand down, boom, gone. Rafters came out and I came down three stories.

• 2:36:50Jocko Willink?

  How come you went down three stories and not just falling from?

• 2:36:54JD Baker?

  Cause you know how like the mount has like a building that looks like it's blown off?

• 2:36:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:59JD Baker?

  Yeah. So there was nothing there.

• 2:37:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:37:01JD Baker?

  So I, I'm out. And, uh, yeah, hit, went down the, the, hit with the left shoulder and then just down the left side of the body. Uh, so just, and the bad thing was I didn't knock myself out.

• 2:37:17JD Baker?

  So, I mean, you know, like when you go see the doc and they're like, so on a pain scale of one to 10, like, I was like, dude, yeah, this is a 10. Like, it hurt. And they medevac me out and took me in and, yeah, I shattered my left shoulder, broke a couple of ribs on the left side, broke my pelvis in three spots and the left ankle. And, yeah, it was going from 100 mile an hour to zero in an instant. And it ended up in a wheelchair, which was

• 2:37:55JD Baker?

  that, that put a lot of stuff, like, I didn't, like, being in a wheelchair, like, man, that, that was terrible. I mean, I was, I was coming unglued. Yeah, it was just, it was a bad, a bad time. You know, I didn't want to hear the whole, oh, everything happens for a reason kind of thing, like, that wasn't flying with me at the time. Just because I thought that, you know, something that I was hoping to do that fall was now gone. And then, you know, the Navy docs that are taking care of me, you know, they were, they were kind of great guys, but one of the Navy doctors, commander, you know, he was like, I don't, I don't know

• 2:38:40JD Baker?

  if you, you know, you're running and that kind of thing, if that's going to be happening. And, well, I didn't like that of telling me that that's not going to happen. So I went in and at Walter Reed, they redid my shoulder the first time and I had to get like a bone graft and stuff put in and, and some screws. So I get that done at Walter Reed, which that was back then when it was like a dungeon, you know, before it hit the news of how stuff went down. I come out of there and this happened in the summer of 2003 and January of 2004, I signed up and went with the Navy team to run the Disney Marathon.

• 2:39:23JD Baker?

  Uh, cause I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm running. I had already been running. Being at the naval academy with their athletic department and the trainers and stuff that they had, man, they had me like aqua jogging and resistance stuff, you know what I mean? And, and the elliptical and, and there were some, you know, some of the guys would come in cause like aqua jogging is boring as shit. You know what I mean? Like it's boring, but I'd have guys come in and get in the pool with me. Cause I'm just trying to get back. I'm still focused like, hey, I still got a shot. You know what I mean? I, I can get better. So, you know, that happened in June, the summer and January, I went down and I ran a, a three 19.

• 2:40:07JD Baker?

  Disney, not my best time, but I was, I was pretty stoked with the three 19. And I came back with that big stupid Disney medal that they give you. I threw it on the commander's desk and I was like, there's your fucking PhD. Don't tell me I can't run. And of course, that's going against doctor's orders, kind of a thing. Uh, they got me a new doc. The new doc that I got, he was great. Uh, he was like, yeah, push your body, you know, the, the human body is an amazing machine. You can, you know, get yourself back, you get yourself fit. Uh, so I started next back in the pool swimming. Uh, I was over there, you know, the men's swim team was phenomenal. Uh, Navy, they got a really good swim program there and the coach was great.

• 2:40:50JD Baker?

  So I used to like to go in and swim with the team. Um, and I was in there swimming. I got out of the shower one day and, and I was, as I was like showering on my shoulder. Like something was coming out the back of my shoulder. Well, so I go over to the football locker. They put the x-ray on. I got screws coming out. Back to the hospital, you know, I mean, my body was refusing some of the screws coming in. I went through rehab, uh, with that, uh, for the second, uh, shoulder operation. And, uh, General Allen, uh, he was kind of my sponsor. Uh, he had been moved on. He was up at the Pentagon. He's a one star. Uh, the Pentagon and finally, uh, you know, John Allen called me up to the Pentagon and he's like, cause they put me up on a Navy board med.

• 2:41:32JD Baker?

  And, uh, and I, I went up and, you know, John was like, where, where do you want to go? Cause you're not, you're done. Like you're not, they were not gonna pass you on any kind of jump physical, nothing, you know, McMap, uh, you know, even the shoulder had gotten bad enough to where they were like, dude, you, you keep monkeying around like you're gonna lose mobility.

• 2:41:55Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 2:41:56JD Baker?

  Um, so that, that, uh, kinda got the realism, uh, in there. And, you know, with him, I, I was hanging out at the academy and, and, uh, and then next thing you know, uh, I got a call from, uh, the monitor, um, Mehdi Knox called me and I was actually at a bowl game in San Diego, uh, here with the Navy football. And he called me and he's like, hey JD, we'd like you to come back down to Quantico and, and, you know, oversee the schools, uh, cause they had a sniper school, HRP, high rest personnel. It's basically, uh, pistol shooting, uh, and Savannah tire, uh, small arms weapon instructor course and breacher school. So they asked me if I'd, you know, come back down and I was literally sitting right downtown San Diego. And I'm like, dude, I'm at a bowl game with Navy football right now. You want

• 2:42:39JD Baker?

  me to come back? Like, I don't want to come back to, uh, so I was like, hey, I'll, I'll call you when I get done, uh, out here. I came back and Mehdi Knox, uh, gave me MASH Sarden, uh, promoted me, gave me a, a pin up and pinned me on February 1st and I went back down to Quantico and, uh, gave him, uh, a couple more years back down at the school house, uh, as a MASH Sarden and then left it at 21. Uh, and I, I think it was, uh, it was good for me to be down there. Uh, the Colonel that I was working for is, uh, Mike Mulligan's great guy. And, uh, and Mike, you know, trying to get me ready for, for

• 2:43:19JD Baker?

  transition. Like, I didn't know, this was not the plan. Yeah. I, I wanted to stay at camp as long as possible until I get like 30 years and, you know, then retire or, you know, make all the way to E9, cause I was at E8 and, uh, and yeah, it wasn't a, it wasn't a plan. So I really, I didn't know like what, what I was gonna do. Um, And probably the, uh, the biggest, uh, aspect of, of is, you know, my wife, uh, Tracy, uh, you know, at times she's like, you can, you can do stuff. I mean, it's one thing she'll give me. She's like, you'll work. You know, you, you're going to show up. You're going to work. Uh, and, you know, one of the guys that had taught me back in the day to cast my net widely,

• 2:44:04JD Baker?

  Eric Carlson, uh, he called me and was like, hey, man, do you want to do some contract work, uh, with infantry weapons, uh, you know, special weapons, sniper rifle, stuff like that, you know, working for L3 communications. So he called me and I was like, yeah, do I have to like, you know, what do I have to do? He goes, well, you know, we got to have like a panel interview kind of thing. And so I go out to see Eric and everybody that's on the panel. I served with all of them in the Marine Corps. It was like a going home kind of thing. It was like, all these dudes are there and it's just like, this is preliminary. Uh, and so Eric, uh, you know, brought me in, uh, and, and, I mean, he took care of me, uh, gave me a job, uh, cause again, I, I didn't, uh, didn't really know what I was going to do.

• 2:44:49Jocko Willink?

  So how long did you do that contracting job for?

• 2:44:51JD Baker?

  A couple of years.

• 2:44:52Jocko Willink?

  And then what, how did you end up, uh, forming OMNA, which is your, OMNA International, which is your leadership company? Is that the right thing to call it?

• 2:45:04JD Baker?

  Yeah. Uh, yeah. I, well, it's, uh, experiential.

• 2:45:08Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:45:09JD Baker?

  Experiential learning. Um, and so it was, it was at L3, um, and, uh, you know, in the Marine Corps, you know, I had the opportunity because of some of the officers that I served with, that let me tag along and, and go on some staff rides, uh, historically, which was like super, I mean, you know, going to over and studying Okinawa, the battle, uh, over there and seeing the reverse slope defense of the Japanese, like what we kind of went through, the Philippines, you know, the Korea, uh, you know what I mean? So just reading and then getting to go to these places and actually stand on the exact spot where, uh, where folks have been. And like I said, I'd, I had read quite a bit, uh, you know, I remember reading, you know, uh, Hackworth back in the day,

• 2:45:54JD Baker?

  you know, those kinds of guys were just very influential, uh, on me, uh, in leadership. And it was just, uh, you know, it was kind of like a, uh, an, an experience to where. You know, it's not in a classroom. It's not you're actually on the field. It's very, it's very hands-on kind of of of learning and learning how to lead. And so I started with with OMNA of it started to realize that we could do staff rides outside of the Marine Corps. Like, there's a, there's, there's other organizations that are out there, you know,

• 2:46:39JD Baker?

  like at the Naval Academy, we used to take the kids to Antietam. You know what I mean? They could do it as a weekend trip. We could take them to Antietam. You know, John Allen, he was a big history guy, Marine officer, of course, loved staff rides. You know, Gettysburg is another big one. Corporal Seamus Garrity used to live up in Gettysburg up there. We called it Marine Barracks, Gettysburg. You know what I mean? So there was, you know, going to Gettysburg, the experiential stuff of overseas, you know, the Marine Corps was always big on this with doing staff rides. And they were a lot of fun. So again, this same guy, Eric Carlson, had been dealing with the Wildland Firefighters, the guys,

• 2:47:22JD Baker?

  hotshots, smokejumpers, engine crew kind of guys. And I guess they had had a couple of fatality fires. So they did a tri-data study and they earmarked and went around and looked at different organizations of how they teach leadership. And they ended up at Marine Corps University and Eric Carlson was the operations officer. And Eric, and they called over and Craig Huddleston, who's with OMNA as well, Craig is another one of my great mentors. Craig was over at Command and Staff. And they were like, hey, do you mind if some firefighter guys come tag along, go to Gettysburg? Sure, bring them along.

• 2:48:04JD Baker?

  So they went up to Gettysburg and when they saw how the Marine Corps just took a pile of dirt of what we call a terrain model, they were like, wow, this is pretty cheap. We've got a lot of dirt. And, and there were so many similarities between Wildland firefighting and the Marine Corps. You know, a hotshot is an infantry, infantry platoon. You know, an engine is like artillery. They've got aviation, they've got logistics, they've got, you know, incident commanders, and they were putting people in harm's way. They're making plans, they're using terrain models and they're sending folks out just like on a military operation. So they really bought into this staff ride concept as well as the

• 2:48:45JD Baker?

  naval academy. So the naval academy with Joe Thomas, who's still up there with the leadership and ethics, great guy, retired marine lieutenant colonel, Pennsylvania guy. Joe and them, I mean, we've taken the naval academy up to Gettysburg because the team captains with the football and all the sports that were up there were like, hey, we got a guy that can take the team captains and take them to Gettysburg. So through N AAA, I took the team captains up there because I knew a lot of the coaches because obviously I spent a lot of time at their facilities, you know what I mean, kind of playing around. And I just started, like, at first, it was kind of a

• 2:49:31JD Baker?

  kind of something fun to do. But I didn't know how to run a business. So I basically went online of, because you can find everything online and like, how do you start a business.com? And then, you know, okay, well, you gotta, you gotta pick a name, you gotta get a DUNES number, you gotta get a 10, you gotta get, you know, so there was a lot of reading involved. Because I had no clue, like, how do you get a business license? I mean, it's just amazing, like, I became so more educated, you know what I mean, of just starting a business and getting

• 2:50:12JD Baker?

  QuickBooks. Like, how do you do taxes? How do you run payroll? Like, how do you, you know what I mean?

• 2:50:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you want to learn a lot of stuff, start some businesses. Start a business. Start with just one. You're going to learn a lot.

• 2:50:22JD Baker?

  Yeah, I've just got one.

• 2:50:26JD Baker?

  I mean.

• 2:50:27Jocko Willink?

  But even like I, I, I think the, well, I know the first business that I started was this gym that we're, we're in today and just the amount of learning that you do. And then, you know, your next business, you already have some of those lessons learned and you can apply them. And then the next business after that one, you can apply some more. And yeah, but if you're a young person or, or you just got out of, you know, the service, you start a business. I don't care if you do, you know, you sell, uh, you know, clothespins or something, painted clothespins. If you start a business to sell painted clothespins, you're going to learn a ton. You're going to learn a ton and you might make some money along the way. You might lose some money, but you're going to learn a lot. That's for sure. Uh, and this is how you and I eventually linked up because at Echelon Front, we wanted to do what we call EF Battlefield.

• 2:51:12Jocko Willink?

  And we wanted to have, you know, a, an expert that has more knowledge about the battles than we do. And that's how, that's how we linked up for the first time, which was awesome.

• 2:51:23JD Baker?

  Yeah. Uh, you know, we, uh, so we started out, so I've had the company since 2010, uh, and, and Omen stands for One Man National Asset. Uh, and I learned from, from Al Gray, that before you decide what you're going to do, decide who you're doing it with. And, you know, Eric Carlson, the same guy. I mean, he's, uh, of course I'm going to do everything with Eric Carl. I live three quarters of a mile from Eric Carlson still to this day. Uh, I run past his house in the morning. I mean, he is a huge impact and, and, uh, Craig Huddleston. Uh, Craig Huddleston is the most interesting man

• 2:52:07JD Baker?

  in the world. Uh, he went from E1 to E7 to O1 to O6, a little over 33. He was a drill instructor. Uh, I mean, he's just like, he's like one of those guys that just did everything. You know what I mean? He did a tour with the British Royal Commandos over in Europe. I mean, he's just the most interesting man in the world. Uh, and, you know, he's, uh, it's still a downhill ski instructor at Angel Fire, New Mexico. He's in his seventies. I mean, you wouldn't know it. Uh, the guy is just, he doesn't stop. Uh, huge impact on me, uh, in my, in my life. And then all the other guys, uh, that, uh, that, that work with Omen, you know, of course, you know, we start out with, with Marines.

• 2:52:52JD Baker?

  And then we started expanding to where like in Wildland Fire, they were like, can we develop staff rides for Wildland Fire? So you got like South Canyon, fatality fires, the dude fire down in Arizona, you've got what the movie came out with, Only the Brave, was about the Yarnell Hill Fire, we developed that staff ride. That's where I was just at last week, doing those. Because like I said, I mean, it's experiential leadership. And it's not necessarily, it's armchair quarterbacking the events, but you're not there to refight the fire, refight the battle. You're there to, to take a step back and look at the leadership decisions that were made. And, and how could, how could we learn from that? How could we

• 2:53:36JD Baker?

  move forward? And then like teaming up with, with you guys, you know what I mean? Like, I can remember when I, when I first, like Steve and Jason, who I love, because they are just class act characters. Like when we got done with the first staff ride, you know, a few years back, and we're, we're sitting in the, in the room and, and they're like, dude, this was so much fun. Like, the interaction with the participants that are there, the people that you get to meet. I mean, you remember, I mean, some of the folks, I mean, they even came back and did Little Big Horn with us. You know, and, and just the experience on the leadership aspect of experiencing it that there, to me, you just,

• 2:54:21JD Baker?

  you can't get it from a classroom. You can't get it from a book. You know, when you're standing, you know, in the peach orchard at Gettysburg, and, and the discussions that you're having of, I mean, everybody has a Dan Sickles in their organization. Everybody, it's just for 10,000 years, we've been trying to figure out how to deal with people. And, and delivering of a staff ride, it's so memorable, like of, of being there. And, you know, it's just so. We basically developed a business around experiential staff rides and you know, and we do it for, you know, Fish and Wildlife, US Forest Service, FDNY, San Diego Life Guards.

• 2:55:06JD Baker?

  I took the San Diego Life Guards to Gettysburg, which was like, super cool. Like, those are a great bunch of guys. And I learned more from them than they probably did from me. Like, I didn't know they were sworn officers and could write tickets, but they don't get a gun. Talk about the ability to, to use your, you know, your communication skills. You better be pretty good. You know what I mean? And, you know, bringing them to Gettysburg, everybody's like, you know, Gettysburg, like, who are these? It's like, they're life guards, like, from San Diego. Like, I mean, the whole Baywatch. I mean, the guys are just phenomenal people. And then we do a lot, Orange County, like, I know you've done stuff with Orange County, Fire Authority up the road. But then when you meet, like, the smoke jumpers and the hotshots, that's like, kinda like,

• 2:55:48JD Baker?

  these people, like, if we would've had Discovery Channel, like, when you and I were kids in the 80s, and I would've seen, like, wait a minute, I can get paid money to get a chainsaw, which are always fun to operate? And you're gonna let me jump out of an aircraft in the middle of nowhere and fight fire? And I'm gonna get paid? Like, that's badass. And just like with the hotshots, I mean, they're gonna put me in a buggy, we're gonna ride around with, like, 20 to 30 other men and women that just wanna get after it, you know what I mean? With a Pulaski, you know what I mean? And fight wildland fire. You know, I mean, what, I mean, they're just great people. They're, they provide a great service to the country.

• 2:56:30JD Baker?

  But, you know, growing up in Virginia, West Virginia, we don't have wildland fire. Like, here. I mean, like, everybody out here, you all in Cali know what wildland fire is.

• 2:56:39Jocko Willink?

  It's a west coast thing.

• 2:56:40JD Baker?

  Yeah. But, yeah, that would be such a cool job. And they're just great people.

• 2:56:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a freaking hard job, man. You and I were talking earlier today, and just, when, when you've been in the military and you look at a hill.

• 2:56:56Jocko Willink?

  And you know what it takes to walk up a hill? You appreciate hills. And those wildland fire guys, man, they just actually, I have a guy that guided me a couple hunts and he's a wildland fire guy. And I mean, you want to talk about a dude that could hoof out some miles, bro? I mean, this dude was just like, okay, I mean, with no expression on his face, you know, other than like, what, like, where, where are we going next? No factor, like, no factor. This guy's put some miles in, man.

• 2:57:24JD Baker?

  These are like mountain goats.

• 2:57:25Jocko Willink?

  They're like mountain goats.

• 2:57:26JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, and they with like gas cans and they got like chainsaws. Uh, and, and they do, uh, I mean, it's a, and they're just a great community of people. Uh, so I, I had the experience, I do, I do a lot, uh, with those folks and, and they've expanded to where now with Omna, now we've got former, I got a former hot shots, former wildland firefighters, I got former, uh, forest ranger. Uh, you know what I mean? That, uh, she works with us. Uh, I mean, just the, the, the people that I've had the opportunity to meet over the past, you know, 12 years of doing this. I mean, it's just, it's amazing. Uh, and of course, like, I enjoy the hell out of it, which makes it even better.

• 2:58:06JD Baker?

  Uh, you know, what, I don't have to go to a cubicle and, you know what I mean? We get the, and, you know, it's like, my wife's like, what are you doing over there? I'm, I'm working.

• 2:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Allegedly.

• 2:58:16JD Baker?

  No, you're reading a book. That's my job. I get to read.

• 2:58:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, uh, you know, we were lucky enough to link up and, and, and we, you know, we bring a lot of corporate people in. We bring every, everyone in, a lot of corporate people, a lot of business people in that go through these staff rides and pass on these lessons learned. Um, and there's so much to learn from, from these events and the leadership and the personalities and the people that undergo them. And I was talking to you and I always feel, uh, kind of selfish because I get to hang out with you. And I was, and learn from these battlefields and from these battles. And I thought to myself, hey, maybe we should try and

• 2:58:58Jocko Willink?

  extend this knowledge to more people. So I came up with the idea of doing a series of podcasts about the Civil War battles. And just so everybody knows, we're, that's what we're doing. We're gonna, we're gonna put together a series of podcasts about the Civil War. Where it's gonna be on this, it's gonna be on this podcast feed. It's gonna be Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion. Cause it's gonna, you know, there's some people that make, I don't really feel like listening to civil war. And if you don't want to listen to it, that's fine. You probably will. It's sitting here talking to you. It's like trying to, I can't wait. I can't wait to pull the string on your back where you just start talking about civil war and battles

• 2:59:40Jocko Willink?

  and personalities, man, it's awesome. And yeah, you'll be hearing a bunch from JD on this feed. Um, yeah. What do we miss? We miss anything else?

• 2:59:53JD Baker?

  No, that's a, that's a, that's, that's pretty much it. Uh, I, I will, I remember when I talked to you, like it's one of the first times I, when your book came out, Extreme Ownership, and of course I'd read it. Uh, and I had, uh, some of the folks that I deal with that that was like a pre-read, uh, you know, cause a lot of the people that we deal with, you know, we, we encourage reading lists in any organization, like everybody should read. Uh, and that was one of the books, uh, Extreme Ownership, uh, prior to us going to Little Big Horn. So, and when you actually look at it after the fact and, and being with you and all with the guys with, uh, Echelon Front and doing it now, when you look at like the battlefield, you could be like, well, that dude definitely did not show any extreme

• 3:00:38JD Baker?

  ownership. You know what I mean?

• 3:00:39Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy to go out and, you know, I, I used to tell the platoons when I was taking a platoon to land warfare or, or urban training, I'd say, look, I know the mistakes you're gonna make. I already know the mistakes you're gonna make. And you're, you know, you're not gonna cover and move. You're gonna make things too complicated. You're not, you're gonna have, trying to do too many things at once. You're gonna have centralized command. Everything's gonna fall apart. If you follow these simple rules, you're gonna do good. And it's so crazy to look back at history and look back at Gettysburg or Little Big Horn. And you can see, oh, no cover and move right here. Everything falls apart. Oh, they too complicated. Everything falls apart. Oh, trying to do too many things at once. Everything falls apart. Oh, the commander's trying to direct every single person. Everything falls apart. The same mistakes get made.

• 3:01:23Jocko Willink?

  In the Civil War, in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, any war, pretty much. The same mistakes get made, the same leadership mistakes get made. And what's crazy is they're the same leadership mistakes that get made in any organization. In any organization. It's they don't support each other, they make things too complicated, they don't figure out their priorities. They don't focus their efforts. And they try and centralize and control everything and all those things are bad. And when you come out and we, with the next thing we're doing with you, let me look at the dates here. It's, uh, what do we got? Next battlefield is March 21st through the 23rd on the hollowed grounds of Gettysburg.

• 3:02:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, there is a whole, I guess I said this with Jason, you know, when Jason was on, there's like a spiritual side to this. There's a leadership side, sure, but you go on to that battlefield and you, you, you feel the sacrifice that was made and it's very powerful. Um, both at Gettysburg and Little Big Horn, and I'm sure we're going to do a bunch of other battlefields in the future. But if anybody wants to come to walk the battlefield with us, uh, esalenfront.com, check out the next EF battlefield, it's March 21st through the 23rd. For your company, for, for Omna, it's theomna.com.

• 3:02:49Jocko Willink?

  So you do, you do stuff all over the place, you run a bunch of these events, your people run a bunch of these events. You're on Instagram, Omna underscore international, you're on Facebook, Omna International LLC. That's if people want to find you, that's where they can find you. Um, and that's where they can find some of the courses that you guys are running, which is awesome. What else? Echo, you got anything? You got any questions? Oh, what, what year again were you at Navy?

• 3:03:16JD Baker?

  I was at Navy 2003 and left 2006.

• 3:03:20Speaker 02

  Oh damn, because we'd play them a lot. I played at University of Hawaii, so that we're in the same conference.

• 3:03:26JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where the head coach at Navy, Ken Neumott, he quarterbacked at Hawaii.

• 3:03:33Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you play in the Naval Academy? You played against them?

• 3:03:36Speaker 02

  We, I didn't play the game, no, but we played them, yeah, the team did, but I personally did not.

• 3:03:41Jocko Willink?

  You were on the bench, kinda?

• 3:03:42Speaker 02

  I was on the bench, I was red shirting, for sure. But yeah, but that was a little bit before that time, though, 95 to 98.

• 3:03:50JD Baker?

  Okay, yeah.

• 3:03:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:51Jocko Willink?

  Did you get special treatment at University of Hawaii, being on the football team?

• 3:03:54Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, they do. And that ma- that makes sense, too, because a lot of time, football brings in a lot of the money, you know? So you have that dynamic, for sure.

• 3:04:04JD Baker?

  Yeah, when, you know, when you look at the, at the football, Division One, compete, I can remember, like, I had a lot of cool opportunities, like, I got to travel with the team. So, like, we go play Notre Dame. I mean, it's big, big school, man, it's a big program, you know what I mean? And I, so I'm over, because I'm a gunny, I can just go wherever I want, so I go over to their locker room. The size of those dudes, like, compared to the Naval Academy and the ship, you know what I mean? They were tree trunks, man. These dudes were hu- I walked back over, one of the quarterbacks at Navy, Craig Candido. I went over to Craig and I was like, dude, I'm glad I'm not you today, brother. Because you're running triple option football.

• 3:04:46Jocko Willink?

  JD's pep talk, I'm glad I'm not you.

• 3:04:50JD Baker?

  I mean.

• 3:04:51Jocko Willink?

  They should have sent you back to the, back to Annapolis after that pep talk, bro.

• 3:04:55JD Baker?

  I mean, those dudes, I mean, that's, and that's where, you know, when you're talking about, like, having these kids there, compete at that level, like you at Hawaii? I mean, it's a different, it's just a different level of competition, playing those, those folks, man, there's some big. And those guys, that's all they do is play football. They're not doing double E and, you know, worried about height, weight requirements and service selection. They're there to play football and go pro.

• 3:05:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's interesting how you talk about a guy will be on the O line or the D line, then he has to go change his whole body. I was like, bruh, that's true. You can't be 6'4", 290, over 300 pounds and then want to run, you know, all these marathons. It's not like that.

• 3:05:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta become a different human.

• 3:05:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:05:36Jocko Willink?

  You gotta become a different human being, like get in, change your DNA is what it boils down to.

• 3:05:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true. Even, I mean, I played a skill position, but even like running three miles, you're talking about eight miles, marathons, all that, I couldn't do that. I could sprint pretty fast, but man, that the long distance is like a different kind of running.

• 3:05:58JD Baker?

  Yeah, they're, they used to do something called fourth quarters in the getting ready. So it was kind of like, they'd show up in the morning out on the field and they would have stations, like fourth quarter circuit kind of stuff. Well, you know, so I go in, of course, I've got cleats. I've got everything, like I've got everything the kids have. Like I love going to practice. You know what I mean? And so I'm going to go do fourth quarters with the team. So first day I go out and I pick skills players to go with. Wrong move. They're, these guys, they're fast twitch muscles, man. They're making me look silly. You know what I mean?

• 3:06:32Jocko Willink?

  And they weigh twice as much as you.

• 3:06:33JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah. So the next day, I'm going with O line.

• 3:06:38Jocko Willink?

  I, I went to one of my SEAL buddies was friends with a bunch of San Diego Chargers and I went to his wedding. And dude, these guys are just not, they're like a different species. It's like when you look at a chihuahua versus like a Great Dane and you think, how are these the same kind of animal? I'm standing around looking at these dudes going, how are these guys the same kind of animals to me? Cause I don't, I don't like this at all.

• 3:07:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I remember there was like one of the, I think it was one of the Chargers here training with Sarge. And he was just teaching them some little bit of jujitsu stuff. And I looked at him, he was like, I forget, it might've been a fullback or something. And I remember looking at, I said, man, I forget, I forgot how big football players are. And even thinking back, I know the numbers, like I know, like my friend Jeff, he was, he, he actually ended up playing for the 49ers. Jeff Albrecht, he was six, one, two, 55 and he ran a four or five. And I remember at the time, I'm thinking like, oh man, he's pretty fast for like being a big, you know, guy, but he's not big compared to like the D line or the O line or whatever. But man, he, me thinking about that right now, bro, I'm not used to that kind of size anymore. Usually it's just normal.

• 3:07:42Jocko Willink?

  And running a four or five at two 55, like when that guy hits you.

• 3:07:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:07:47Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's not, that's not cool. Bro, you're going down, like you're going down, you're going down. That's just pure power.

• 3:07:55Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. These big Samoan guys too. Six, five, three, 30, three, 40.

• 3:08:01Jocko Willink?

  And still fast.

• 3:08:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. These pulling guards that come, they're just like this big mass of a human. Oh, man. Yeah, it's, I forget how big they are.

• 3:08:11JD Baker?

  Yeah, that's why we invented gunpowder.

• 3:08:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:08:20Jocko Willink?

  Anything else, anything else, JD? We're going to get a big dose of you on the podcast here.

• 3:08:27Jocko Willink?

  Anything else from you?

• 3:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Let's talk about how to support this podcast, how to support America, right? And of course, want to support ourselves. Speaking of being jacked.

• 3:08:42Jocko Willink?

  Good tool for being jacked, creatine.

• 3:08:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:08:45Jocko Willink?

  We just came out with creatine.

• 3:08:47Speaker 02

  That's good. How long were you thinking about doing that? Cause I remember the idea came up a long time ago.

• 3:08:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:08:54Speaker 02

  Just the idea.

• 3:08:55Jocko Willink?

  It was one of those things where we had to be able to do it at a scale where it made sense. Because, because we, I don't just want to be like, oh, we'll just throw our name in the hat with everybody else. I want to make it good and all that stuff. But yeah, it's been, it's been a. It's probably been a few years that we were, had that in the, in the queue.

• 3:09:15Speaker 02

  It makes sense because it is one of those supplements that's like reliably good and across the board, you know? All right. It's crazy, but you, on that little video you made when you're like, yeah, in the nineties and it's weird. That's when I really heard about it.

• 3:09:27Jocko Willink?

  No, what's, yeah, what's cool is that that's, I, I, I remember when it came out. It came out and I remember it and everyone's like, dude, creatine, creatine, creatine. And I got on creatine, I was on deployment on the USS Cleveland, the steamin' Cleve. And I brought cruise boxes with this protein powder that had creatine in it. And this is the one that I talk about where it's vanilla. I don't even like vanilla to this day because I drank vanilla protein shanks for six straight months. And I would hold my nose like it was bad tequila and just like, oh, gut it down. You don't have to do that anymore. You can get jockofuel.com, get your creatine.

• 3:10:07Jocko Willink?

  Get jacked. The other cool thing is they've done so much research on it now. It like helps, it does, just doesn't only help you get stronger. Helps your athletic performance, helps your, helps your cognitive function. Like it's, it's just straight good for you. So if you want to get some of that, jockofuel.com.

• 3:10:23Speaker 02

  And that's not to mention resistance training, all the studies that they have been putting into that, all the benefits of resistance training. So now you've got the creatine supporting the resistance training, supporting all the other functions of your body.

• 3:10:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, resistance training, resistance training, no offense JD, because I know you're a runner. Do you jack steel at all?

• 3:10:39JD Baker?

  No, I just, uh.

• 3:10:41Jocko Willink?

  Calisthenics?

• 3:10:41JD Baker?

  Yeah, I do pull-ups. I got a pull-up bar. Yeah, pull-ups, calisthenics.

• 3:10:45Jocko Willink?

  Right. That's just old school Marine corps.

• 3:10:47JD Baker?

  No jacking of steel.

• 3:10:50Jocko Willink?

  You jacked your shoulder, now you're not jacking steel. Uh, what else?

• 3:10:55Speaker 02

  Discipline go, right? Energy drink, redefine, healthy, all good stuff, no bad stuff.

• 3:11:01Jocko Willink?

  Can you imagine just having something that's got no downside? How legit is that?

• 3:11:06Speaker 02

  Very legit.

• 3:11:06Jocko Willink?

  That's the legit here. No downside. There's no, there's no price to pay.

• 3:11:10Speaker 02

  None.

• 3:11:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it costs three bucks or whatever.

• 3:11:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:11:13Jocko Willink?

  There's no price to pay physically.

• 3:11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:11:16Jocko Willink?

  Health wise. Same thing with the ready to drink milk. Did you get a shipment yet?

• 3:11:19Speaker 02

  Yes, I did.

• 3:11:22Speaker 02

  Bro, my kids are, my kids are stealing them.

• 3:11:24Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be gone. It's gonna be gone. There's no way you can have ready to drink milk in the house with children.

• 3:11:28Speaker 02

  I had to make a rule. Straight up rule. Like you're not allowed to have these kind of things.

• 3:11:32Jocko Willink?

  Off limits. Those are just for you.

• 3:11:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I open one, they drink it all. Straight up. That's why I made the rule.

• 3:11:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, we're making as much as we can. We're gonna, we, we got it on the web. We're, so, yeah. The ready to drink milk is freaking awesome. It's a game. It's kind of a game changer. It is kind of a game changer. You know why I think it's a game changer? Cause man, there's no reason to eat anything else. Like, you know, maybe you're walking by, no, you know what I'm saying? Like you're walking by the fridge and you're like, well, what could I have right now? And you're kinda, everything's an effort or it's got downside, you know? With a milk, ready to drink, there's no, there's zero, once again, no downside. You don't have to make it. You just twist the freaking cap off, bro. You're in.

• 3:12:15Speaker 02

  You're, you're correct about that.

• 3:12:17Jocko Willink?

  That's so. Gets yourself some ready to drink milk. Get yourself some creatine. Go, discipline, go. Jocko Fuel dot com, at Wawa. You're in Virginia. You're rolling into Wawa.

• 3:12:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:12:27Jocko Willink?

  Just get, you're cleaning the shelves out.

• 3:12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're cleaned out like all the time.

• 3:12:31Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Yeah.

• 3:12:32Speaker 02

  In Wawa.

• 3:12:33Jocko Willink?

  We'll send more. So if you're east coast, Wawa, you can get the stuff at the vitamin shop. Military commissaries. We're working the exchange. We should be in the exchanges soon. Hanafords, Dash Stores, Wakeford, Shop Right Circle K, H E B, Tejas. You know, we got you. Murphy's down in the southeast, Meyer in the Midwest. So go, go get yourself some Jocko Fuel. Get, no downside. That's the thing. Not too many things in this world. Not too many things in this world, no downside. OriginUSA.com. Jeans, boots, gees, hunt gear, rash guards, t-shirts, beanies.

• 3:13:14Jocko Willink?

  But I could, how long is this gonna go? This could go a while. Here's the thing. All made in America. Right now, you know, you're seeing some stuff on the news right now. You're seeing in China, there's a, a practical revolution happening right now. There, they got workers rebelling, slave labor rebelling. It's about time.

• 3:13:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's China. That's where your clothes are getting made if you're not buying from originusa.com. You're you're enabling slave labor to happen. So don't do it. Get the best quality stuff. Get the best quality stuff made in America. Don't support slave labor. That's what I got for you. Originusa.com.

• 3:13:55Speaker 02

  It's true. Also, Jaco's a store called Jaco Store.

• 3:13:57Jocko Willink?

  Did I say geese? Did I say jujitsu geese?

• 3:13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:13:59Jocko Willink?

  I was talking to some jujitsu. Who was I talking to? Someone was like, bruh. When you put a Origin Jujutsu gi on, it's a it's it's totally it's a totally different thing. It's a different thing. It's like you were it's like you were driving in a Camry.

• 3:14:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:14:16Jocko Willink?

  No offense against Camry's, right?

• 3:14:18Speaker 02

  Apparently, yeah.

• 3:14:19Jocko Willink?

  But then you got put into like a Cadillac. You know what I'm saying?

• 3:14:23Speaker 02

  I know.

• 3:14:24Jocko Willink?

  Next level. It's a different thing. It's a different experience.

• 3:14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good.

• 3:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Hey, your brother used to have a Prius, right?

• 3:14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:14:31Jocko Willink?

  Does he still have it?

• 3:14:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:14:33Jocko Willink?

  See, he had that Prius. I didn't know what to think of a Prius, right? Because I've never been in one.

• 3:14:37Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:14:38Jocko Willink?

  I got in his Prius. Bruh, that thing was.

• 3:14:40Speaker 02

  You didn't like that?

• 3:14:40Jocko Willink?

  No, that thing was foolish, man.

• 3:14:44Jocko Willink?

  I know it gets good mileage and whatnot. No, but I mean, it felt it felt like it felt like economy class.

• 3:14:51Speaker 02

  Yes, it was very economy class. I'm sure there's different levels of interior of Prius. I'm sure that's my assumption. I don't know. I don't know how many Priuses I've ever been in besides his, but you know, I think.

• 3:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Like you hit the bump and you feel it.

• 3:15:05Speaker 02

  Oh, that'll hold the whole deal?

• 3:15:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's economy class.

• 3:15:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's different.

• 3:15:09Jocko Willink?

  So don't do that, man. Don't get don't get an economy class gi.

• 3:15:13Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:15:13Jocko Willink?

  Get a first class gi.

• 3:15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, you're gonna feel the difference for sure, especially when you gotta roll around in that thing too. People trying to choke you with it.

• 3:15:20Jocko Willink?

  You will not.

• 3:15:20Speaker 02

  It's gonna make a difference.

• 3:15:21Jocko Willink?

  Hey, if you travel first class and then you go back to economy, you hate it.

• 3:15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:15:25Jocko Willink?

  It's the same thing here.

• 3:15:26Speaker 02

  It's not gonna work.

• 3:15:26Jocko Willink?

  You put on the Origin gi, you're in first class, then you go back into an economy gi, you're gonna hate it.

• 3:15:32Speaker 02

  It's gonna be pretty much.

• 3:15:32Jocko Willink?

  And once again, you're also gonna know in your subconscious mind that like a 14 year old girl in a slavery position was forced to make your gi at gunpoint.

• 3:15:44Speaker 02

  14 hours a day.

• 3:15:45Jocko Willink?

  14 hours a day.

• 3:15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:48Jocko Willink?

  So just keep that in mind, originusa.com.

• 3:15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, on that. Also, Jaco's store, if you want to represent on the past, discipline equals freedom shirts and hats. Merch, if you will. Good, this is quality, though. It's not like the cheap, free, made it very wearable. We made it very wearable. Actually, a lot of people say it's their favorite fitting shirt.

• 3:16:09Jocko Willink?

  Shirt locker.

• 3:16:11Speaker 02

  Shirt locker is a different thing, same quality.

• 3:16:13Jocko Willink?

  Kind of.

• 3:16:14Speaker 02

  Custom shirt. Yeah, they are custom, but yes, this subscription, you get a new one every month. Cool designs. A lot of people seem to like that one as well. So yeah, this is all on Jaco's.

• 3:16:23Jocko Willink?

  There's a couple coming that are, I'm pretty, I'm pretty on board with the plan for some of the t-shirts in the shirt locker that are coming out. Uh, subscribe to that, subscribe to the podcast, go to JacoUnderground.com. Look, there's stuff going on with the platforms right now. It's actually crazy to watch. What's going on? Social media, big tech companies, freedom of speech. There's all kinds of mayhem going on. Look, we gotta have a contingency plan. We, meaning you, listening, us, sitting here, contingency plan. JacoUnderground.com. If everything falls apart, we'll be there. It's $8.18 a month. If you can't afford it, that's okay. We got you.

• 3:17:04Jocko Willink?

  Email assistance@[email protected]. But listen, we don't know what's gonna happen with these platforms. And we can't just, look, you can't put your trust. You can't put complete trust into something you have no control over. You have to control your destiny. You have to take ownership of your future. So look, if everything, look, if we can stay on this path, cool. Hey, we're down. We're, we're, yeah, it's fine. If they want to let us keep talking and we'll keep talking and we're all good, hey, we got no problem with that. But I can't just rely on that. We all can't just rely on the, the benevolence of these people that have no vested interest in what we're doing. In fact, sometimes it could be conceived that they have a vested interest in not supporting what we're doing.

• 3:17:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm just saying. That's where we have this, Jaco Underground.com. Check that out. YouTube, subscribe to Jaco Podcasts, subscribe to Origin USA, Psychological Warfare, FlipsideCanvas.com. Got a bunch of books. You know what they are.

• 3:18:05Jocko Willink?

  Check them out. Echelon Front, if you want to come to one of these events with JD and I, go to echelonfront.com. We got a leadership consultancy. This is one of the things that we do there is these Battlefield Tours, EF Battlefield. Next one is March 21st through 23rd. It's up in Gettysburg.

• 3:18:23Jocko Willink?

  It's, it, it is going to impact the way you think and it's going to impact your understanding of the world. If you come out to that. It impacts me every time. So echelonfront.com, that's our leadership consultancy. We also have the Academy Online, Online Training, ExtremeOwnership.com. This is where we teach these lessons of life to everyone through the interwebs, which years ago, this wasn't even conceivable thing. It would just seem like, oh, how can you, how can you learn something over the internet? But Echo Charles, you know those videos that you make?

• 3:19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do.

• 3:19:02Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you learn how to do that?

• 3:19:03Speaker 02

  Mostly the internet.

• 3:19:04Jocko Willink?

  Mostly?

• 3:19:05Speaker 02

  A lot of on the job, uh, training as well.

• 3:19:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, you.

• 3:19:10Speaker 02

  On the field, sorry, in the field.

• 3:19:11Jocko Willink?

  Where'd the knowledge come from?

• 3:19:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, the internet.

• 3:19:13Jocko Willink?

  See, so there you go. So check that out, ExtremeOwnership.com. If you want to learn to live your life better, you want to learn to lead. You want to learn to maneuver around the battlefield of humans, which is what we're all doing. Go to ExtremeOwnership.com. And if you want to help service members, you want to help active and retired, their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate, you want to get involved, AmericasMightyWarriors.org. And also don't forget about Micah Fink's organization, HeroesAndHorses.org. If you want to connect with JD on the interwebs, theomna, O-M-N-A, theomna.com, on Instagram, O-M-N-A underscore underscore.

• 3:20:03Jocko Willink?

  International, Facebook, O M and A, you just called it Omna huh?

• 3:20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:20:08Jocko Willink?

  You made it into a word.

• 3:20:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's Omna.

• 3:20:10Jocko Willink?

  One man national asset.

• 3:20:12Speaker 02

  Everybody is a national asset.

• 3:20:14Jocko Willink?

  This starts as like a tongue in cheek thing though, right? Like, hey, that guy thinks he's a one man national asset.

• 3:20:19Speaker 02

  He's the Omna.

• 3:20:22Jocko Willink?

  But then it becomes on the battlefield and business and life, everyone's job is critical to a team's success.

• 3:20:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, everybody.

• 3:20:33Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Uh, as far as Echo and I were also on Twitter. Twitter's hot right now, you know that? Hey, Echo Charles lost all of his Twitter followers because he got

• 3:20:45Speaker 02

  Brutal.

• 3:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Stolen. How did somebody steal that from you? Did you, did you get fished or something?

• 3:20:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably clicked on something.

• 3:20:52Jocko Willink?

  It happened that quick huh?

• 3:20:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I was, I didn't really go on Twitter that much, so maybe I clicked on one of these lists.

• 3:21:00Jocko Willink?

  What kind of lists?

• 3:21:02Speaker 02

  You know, like 10 things you should avoid when you go to, I don't know, Russia or something. I don't know, you know, they have those lists there. I always click on.

• 3:21:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so these are, these are clickbait. You're on the internet, you're surfing the interweb.

• 3:21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then it's like.

• 3:21:16Jocko Willink?

  Is it inside of Twitter?

• 3:21:17Speaker 02

  This is what it'll do, here's a heads up. It'll be something along the lines of this, and it's, it's totally my fault. Where they'll be like, uh, oh, go back to Twitter. You know, like you'll go on the website, it'll be all messy website or whatever. And I'm usually pretty good at navigating it, but then it'll be like, oh, navigate back to Twitter.

• 3:21:35Jocko Willink?

  So there was like, wait, you clicked on 10 things to avoid in Russia.

• 3:21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll read it.

• 3:21:40Jocko Willink?

  It comes up, there's 19 pop up ads, there's a bunch of weird shit going on that thing. You maybe even got a little flagged warning that came up that this is a corrupt scenario.

• 3:21:49Speaker 02

  Probably, yeah.

• 3:21:50Jocko Willink?

  You just ignored all that, you read the 10 things, maybe we should do a, uh, uh, an underground podcast about the 10 things to avoid in Russia. Since we did get the knowledge we paid for.

• 3:21:58Speaker 02

  I don't know, yeah, it was a list of some sort.

• 3:22:00Jocko Willink?

  So then it says, do you want to return to Twitter?

• 3:22:03Speaker 02

  Navigate back to Twitter and then you go and then like, if I'm not mistaken, it'll say like. Oh, you're like logged out or something like that. So you log back in.

• 3:22:15Speaker 02

  Oh, bro.

• 3:22:17Jocko Willink?

  I.

• 3:22:17Speaker 02

  If I were, it was something along those lines.

• 3:22:19Jocko Willink?

  Russ, you, you.

• 3:22:20Speaker 02

  It'll be like confirm or I don't know, something like that.

• 3:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you.

• 3:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:22:24Jocko Willink?

  You messed up.

• 3:22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I walked right into it. Um, and then my account is just gone. They go in there and they change your username, your password, everything. So your email doesn't even show up in the, as the account. So I'm like, whatever. It's just Twitter. And then like, maybe a week or two later, people are like messaging me like, hey, someone hacked your Twitter. So I'm like, I know, whatever. And then that day with me and you, I went and looked for it. It was just gone. Everything was gone. So I just signed up under my original name. It was available.

• 3:22:52Jocko Willink?

  So what, uh, how many followers did you have? Do you know how many followers did you have?

• 3:22:56Speaker 02

  Well, like, I don't know, 70 something thousand.

• 3:22:59Jocko Willink?

  70,000. And now how many do you have? 70?

• 3:23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

• 3:23:04Jocko Willink?

  But you're bummed out. You're sad because The Rock, didn't The Rock follow you?

• 3:23:07Speaker 02

  No, no, Joe Rogan.

• 3:23:08Jocko Willink?

  Joe Rogan followed you on Twitter and now he's gone.

• 3:23:11Speaker 02

  Yep. Brutal, brutal. But you still follow me now. So that's.

• 3:23:15Jocko Willink?

  I think I was, I think I might've been your first, oh, I was your first follower.

• 3:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you were literally.

• 3:23:19Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Anyways, if you want to follow Echo Charles on the, on the Twitter, on the Gram, on the Facebook, I'm on there too. At Echo Charles and at Jocko Willink. Watch out. Watch out for the algorithm, number one. Number two, watch out for the hackers, you know? That stuff. JD, anything else? No, I'm good. Right, right, old man. Well, uh, thanks for coming down. Appreciate it. Um, more important, thanks for your service in the Marine Corps. Teaching Marines how to fight, teaching them how to lead. Um, it's been an honor working with you past few years and I look forward to doing more in the future. Thanks to all our military and tonight especially to our Marines.

• 3:24:02Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for holding the line around the world to protect and preserve our way of life. And the same goes for all our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all first responders. We're only able to live the way we do because you live your life and sacrifice the way you do. So thank you.

• 3:24:27Jocko Willink?

  And everyone else out there, remember what the Marine Corps says.

• 3:24:33Jocko Willink?

  That while physical health and strength and well-being is important, and it certainly is. It certainly is. But remember that the principal weapon is the mind. So read, study, learn, and of course, keep getting after it. And until next time, this is JD and Echo and Jaco out.