Sasha Hamdani (on ADHD)

Sasha Hamdani (Too Sensitive: Rejection, Resilience, and the Science of Feeling Deeply) is a board-certified psychiatrist and ADHD clinical specialist. Sasha joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the classroom insurrection she started which led to her ADHD diagnosis, how her residency rebuilt the confidence that medical school degraded, and that symptoms known today as ADHD first showed up in the 1700s. Sasha and Dax talk about her beef with diagnostic labels and how often trauma is misdiagnosed as ADHD, how liberating it was to understand the way her brain functions, and neurological reasons why grief is so destabilizing for someone with ADHD. Sasha explains the importance of being able to emotionally regulate before conflict, her hot take on self-diagnosis, and non-stimulant, skills-based approaches that work well to treat ADHD. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Mouse.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:06Dax Shepard?

  Today we have Sasha Hamdani on, a long time coming. We've been talking about ADHD ad nauseam. I think we've even maybe lost listeners over it. But we finally have brought in an expert to either correct, confirm, who knows? Just explore this topic that we are obsessed with.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  That's the fun thing about this show. We get to talk about something that we know very little about and then get real answers.

• 0:34Dax Shepard?

  It is awesome. Sasha is an M.D. She's a board certified psychiatrist specializing in ADHD, RSD, and emotional regulation. Her books include Self-Care for People with ADHD and an upcoming book that comes out in October. Look forward to when, when people start serving pumpkin spice lattes and dressing in Halloween costumes.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  PSL.

• 0:56Dax Shepard?

  Too Sensitive: Rejection, Resilience, and the Science of Feeling Deeply. Boy, I love this. This is a great episode.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04Dax Shepard?

  Please enjoy Sasha Hamdani. This episode of Armchair Expert is presented by Apple TV, the new U.S. home of Formula One. Starting March 7th, you can watch complete all access live coverage of every Grand Prix, including practice, qualifying, and sprints, all in one place. Watch every race live only on Apple TV. We get support from Quince.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 1:39Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a T-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince, because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  $60, $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories, they skip the middlemen, and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 2:19Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time, and he looks iconic.

• 2:28Speaker 01

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• 2:47Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from AG1. Fall is that time when your body and mind are getting ready for the winter. You're settling in, bracing for the cold. Your body's already running a deficit from the shorter days and broken sleep patterns. You don't want a nutrient deficit stacked on top of that, too.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  That's where your AG1 routine earns its spot. It's not fixing your sleep or your alarm time. It's giving your body what it needs so the dark mornings don't tank you before you even start. One scoop, cold water every morning before anything else.

• 3:36Dax Shepard?

  AG1 Next Gen has 75 plus ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, superfoods, backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials. Key nutrient levels improved with three months of consistent use.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  That's the part people miss. It's not a one day fix. It's what happens when you stay consistent.

• 3:54Dax Shepard?

  It's an easy, everyday thing. I've added it to my morning routine and I'm going to tell you, I actually love the taste of it. It's like Pavlovian. I drink it and I know I'm going to get that little vitamin buzz.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Well, that's also the thing. When you do it first thing in the morning, you already feel kind of self-esteem because you're like, I already did something good for myself.

• 4:12Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Go to drinkag1.com/dax and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega three fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/dax. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Armchair Expert sent you.

• 4:53Dax Shepard?

  I'm nervous to be too optimistic, but we had a microbiome expert on who has a probiotic that actually is real.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:00Dax Shepard?

  And I've been on it for like, I think, two weeks.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Probably not even, probably like a week or something.

• 5:06Dax Shepard?

  And I was in Detroit and I cheated on my diet.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:09Dax Shepard?

  And I had gluten and sugar. And I didn't have any rash and my joints didn't hurt. And I'm like, did it fix my leaky gut and mizzle?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  That fast? Maybe.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  I know so. Like maybe that with that exclusionary diet?

• 5:25Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Cause I've been gluten free for five years because of this.

• 5:28Dax Shepard?

  You have psoriatic arthritis?

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:30Dax Shepard?

  You do? Don't you think it's the sexiest autoimmune?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so good. Like I'm walking around, I'm like, oh, I can feel like it's cold outside. My husband's like, no.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 5:41Dax Shepard?

  How long have you had it? Or been diagnosed with it?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  So I was diagnosed with psoriasis in fifth grade.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 5:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness, okay.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Long time, but it didn't affect my joints until I got out of medical school. And I was like, what is this? Why am I elderly? I did my residency in Phoenix and it was warm and nice and I didn't really notice things. And then I moved back to Kansas City where it was cold. And I was like, something is wrong with me. It was horrific. And then I was like, okay, well, let me just up Pilates or up something else that's gonna help me with this.

• 6:12Dax Shepard?

  Must be my fault. Right? I must need to do more.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Okay. And then I went, I got the full workup. And I also have horrible rashes all over my actual joints. And then they were like, well, I was like, okay.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I have to point out, we're all wearing blue.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  I know.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  And that's really nice. And we're wearing basically the same outfit. Black pants and a blue top.

• 6:34Dax Shepard?

  And you also both have the most beautiful skin tone and hair tone.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Thank you. Wow. Oh, my God, long lost twins.

• 6:45Dax Shepard?

  You could bridge the divide between Pakistan and India.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  That's what I'm doing.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  That's what we're here to do.

• 6:51Dax Shepard?

  When we leave here, that'll be solved. But I am curious because you must experience this bit of dissonance, right? Where you've gone to medical school and then things are happening to you, but you're somehow not using the same criteria or it's hard to apply to yourself what you already know.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  It's so hard.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  Right?

• 7:09Speaker 02

  And also, I'm a psychiatrist, so anything with the body and like.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  He like beats me, yeah.

• 7:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you're from Santa Barbara. I once lived there. And what part of Santa Barbara did you live in?

• 7:21Speaker 02

  In Montecito.

• 7:22Dax Shepard?

  Montecito, okay. So what did mom and dad do? You feel guilty, right, admitting it? We just had a guest who currently lives in Montecito and he said, Santa Barbara. And I said, Montecito? And he said, yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Do you go to that amazing bookstore? Godmothers? Do you know about it?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  What? Maybe it's after your time.

• 7:39Dax Shepard?

  You've been gone for a while.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  I've been gone for a while. I've been gone for like 18 years. I've moved out. So it's changed a lot, but my mom still lives there. So we're, and I was able to like come to the podcast and then we had a sleepover last night.

• 7:53Dax Shepard?

  That's what I was hoping. I'm hoping you got to go to Santa Barbara.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  And there's a huge ice storm in Kansas City. My flight has already been canceled.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  So I'm like, okay, I guess I'll have to go be in Montecito for a couple of days.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Well, go to Godmothers. It's very, very cute.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Wait, how do I not? Where is it?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  It's on a really cute street.

• 8:10Dax Shepard?

  There's only that one main street. A parallel to the train tracks.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  There's State Street.

• 8:14Dax Shepard?

  State Street, correct?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  It's not there.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  It's on Lily Avenue.

• 8:17Dax Shepard?

  Lily.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  It's on Lily?

• 8:19Dax Shepard?

  Ding ding ding.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  I know.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Lily?

• 8:22Dax Shepard?

  It's her middle name. I know.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  It's as close as Summerland Beach.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  That doesn't count. That's not Montecito.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  I think it is because, because we went to lunch in Montecito and it was like 10 minutes away or nine.

• 8:35Dax Shepard?

  10 minutes away could be Carpinteria.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Oh, wow, you guys. You guys are.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Montecito is like.

• 8:40Dax Shepard?

  Three blocks long.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like 14 blocks.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  You guys are so picky.

• 8:43Dax Shepard?

  We lived there, I think is what it is.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  I guess so.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  I think I know.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fine. So drive the 10 minutes.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  We'll see.

• 8:52Dax Shepard?

  What did mom and dad do in Santa Barbara?

• 8:55Speaker 02

  It's a funny story because my mom and dad got married and they were from Pakistan. My dad applies all over the US for a job, doesn't get anywhere. The first job that gave him an opening as an engineer was in Santa Barbara. And he's like, sweet. And so we go there. My mom's in training because she is a pediatrician. So she's still going through a residency. And then I came out.

• 9:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  And then we just kind of lived and grew up there. You didn't grow up there?

• 9:21Dax Shepard?

  Nope.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  It's a weird vortex.

• 9:22Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it was weird when I got there from Detroit. I was like, this is a very weird.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  It's a weird micro.

• 9:28Dax Shepard?

  Please pinpoint the things that you thought were weird because I have my own specific.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  So growing up there, it is this weird mix of people that have been there for a million generations and are just trickle down. And they're on level 1,000 of their trust fund. Yeah. They're not really.

• 9:48Dax Shepard?

  Engaged.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Yes, and humanity or like no concept of work or motivation. So like some people in my high school currently, right now, they have the same jobs that they had in high school. But they're just working until their parent dies and that they can move upstairs.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:07Dax Shepard?

  I'm delighted that we have the same observation because I got there and I started meeting. I remember I met this girl at a coffee shop and she was shooting meth. And she was also very interesting and pretty. And I went to her house and it was this very nice house in Montecito. And there were other children of rich kids that were just completely neglected. There's like this whole cadre of rich neglected kids there that I thought was so freaky and weird.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  It's weird.

• 10:35Dax Shepard?

  I'm so curious, how old are you?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  I'm 39.

• 10:39Dax Shepard?

  Okay, 39.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  We're very close in age.

• 10:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, very, very close.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  We're the same.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Basically the same, but I am 38. I just, I'm sorry.

• 10:44Speaker 02

  Don't.

• 10:46Dax Shepard?

  You have to be honest.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  I have to be honest.

• 10:48Dax Shepard?

  You're committed to being honest.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  I am, I am.

• 10:49Dax Shepard?

  You've had a very similar trajectory in that you two were trying to very much hide from your culture. I happen to know this from the host of yours.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  I had purple contacts for a while.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I wanted them. I wanted them.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  The violent ones, the color blends?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yes, I wanted them.

• 11:04Dax Shepard?

  The irony, you guys are both such babes. It's incredible that you would be trying to become.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  You're going through that in your formative years and you're already feeling othered. Yes. And so you really do whatever. And when I'm saying othered, I mean, from a physical, like in ninth grade, I show up to public school, coming from private school, so I didn't really know anybody. And my violent context, I have headgear during the day.

• 11:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, boy. Yeah. Not even nocturnal. We could have taken a fucking break for six hours.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I did. Two periods into that school, I was like, this goes. Yes.

• 11:35Dax Shepard?

  You're a survivor if you went to high school with headgear.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  No, you can't. You don't make it out. You don't make it out. And I was like, wrong. Let me deal with the palate issues and the overbite. I'll deal with it. Yeah, yeah. At a different time. Yeah, that's right.

• 11:49Dax Shepard?

  OK, but you're kind of a wunderkind and you get diagnosed with ADHD at nine years old, which that's the beginning of these diagnoses. Yeah, maybe the uptick in these.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  That's early. Well, it depends.

• 11:58Dax Shepard?

  Where you were at, probably.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Also, gender. For boys, typical age of diagnosis is between five and seven. For women, do you know what it is? Forty. Thirty-five years old.

• 12:09Dax Shepard?

  Thirty-five. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Age. Usually, they've had their own kids. They're like, this is weird. They go to the doctor, the kid gets diagnosed, and then the mom gets diagnosed.

• 12:17Dax Shepard?

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 12:18Dax Shepard?

  OK, so you do get a diagnosis and then that's immediately helpful, yeah? In that you get medication that starts working?

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Yes. I'm hesitating because it's a weird story.

• 12:27Dax Shepard?

  OK, great.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Tell us. OK, so, fourth grade. I was pretty boisterous as a kid. Substitute teacher comes along. I create an insurrection in the classroom. I got everyone to stand up on their desks, start chanting. And like, that's horrifying. I have kids. I can't imagine treating a teacher or a substitute teacher like that, ever. But I was just the person who did that. Within an hour of that happening, the substitute teacher calls my teacher. My teacher calls from a doctor's appointment. She calls my parents and she's like, do something. And so then my parents got me. My mom was a pediatrician, so I got in with a physician. I got diagnosed and I got treated. But it was so stigmatized at that time. They didn't tell me my diagnosis.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  I feel like I was diagnosed twice because I was on medication hugely helpful. My parents were like, okay, take this vitamin. And I was like, whoa, this vitamin is working so much.

• 13:21Dax Shepard?

  Beats the shit out of Flintstones.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Well, I took those too.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I love those. Throwback.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  They were so chalky and disgusting.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I know, but it's so nostalgic.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  So I could sit through class. I could pay attention. I wasn't getting in trouble. And school wasn't painful for me. It was never hard for me before, but I was so bored. I was like, I can't sit here and do this. And so it became very manageable. And that kind of propelled me through this stupid vitamin. And then I did well enough throughout my schooling through high school that I got into a combined undergrad graduate program. So I started medical school at 18.

• 13:58Dax Shepard?

  So I got condensed to a six-year program, right? At University of Missouri, Kansas City?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Also, my dad went there.

• 14:04Dax Shepard?

  He did?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  You shut up right now.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yes, he did.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Did he really?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  He did before he went to tech.

• 14:10Dax Shepard?

  Ashok's in the mix here.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Really?

• 14:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, his sim is in the mix right now.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Oh, his sim. Okay.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  He's very proud of us.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, he is.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  So I went there and that was the first time I'd been away from my parents. That was the first time I'd been by myself. I'm like, there's so much stuff and freedom and also laundry and all of this other stuff that I've never had to worry about because my mom would do it. I don't know how to feed myself.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 14:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sorry.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  How dare you.

• 14:41Dax Shepard?

  Your mom waited on you hand and foot.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  I did my laundry starting from age like eight.

• 14:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  My mom tried.

• 14:47Dax Shepard?

  Could you scream, "Make me a milkshake" from the bottom of the stairs? And she would make you one?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  No, that's nowadays. No, you're thinking of the wrong story. I was making a milkshake in basically the middle of the night.

• 15:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  And she was like calling from her room like, stop. There was a blender going and everyone was asleep. And she was like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm making a milkshake. So I was making it.

• 15:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Okay, so you have some things a little twisted.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I probably could yell. Make me a milkshake. My mom would be like, yeah. Amazing. She did try to instill skills and I just was uninterested. In high school, I was playing sports and I was doing all this other stuff. And if you had told me your laundry's not gonna get done, I'd be like, okay, I'll just wear my parka to school. It's fine. I don't care about that stuff. And I still kinda don't care about that stuff. There was a lot going on and I went from being one of the smart kids in my school to all of a sudden being quite literally the bottom of my class. When I realized something was wrong and I brought it up to my parents is I did this neuro test. So neuroanatomy and I stayed up, really tried to focus and I was like, I know this brain inside out.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  It was really interesting to me and it was visual and I was like, I got this. This is so easy. Go into the test. I'm like, this is amazing. I'm getting all of them. This is perfect. I'm the first one out of that test. And then they had this thing where they would like post your grades with your ID number. Like the next day, I'm like showing up, I'm still looking for my ID number and you're looking at all of these grades and you're like 90, 80, whatever. And I was like, there is some loser who got a 32. And I was like, well, that's me.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  What?

• 16:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. What a disconnect.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  I didn't flip over.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Oh, oh.

• 16:32Dax Shepard?

  Ah, you just did half of the test.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  I got 100%. I didn't flip it over.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Okay, you'd think the perf- oh, you would think. I went and I was like, please, this is going to break my self-esteem. And I was like, I'll be on the other side of the room.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  You can give it to me orally. Just read me the questions. I will tell you the answers. The guy was like, you're either gonna learn from this or you're not. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm not. So I remember telling my parents. They're like, well, are you taking your vitamin? I was like, respectfully, I don't even know where that is. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  You still thought it was a vitamin and you're in college.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  It was a vitamin.

• 17:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so I have a little, I have a little beef with your parents.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 17:10Dax Shepard?

  This is an ongoing beef. You also could have been told at nine years old that this notion that there's all these things we can't tell kids is so silly. I don't understand why.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  It was a different time though, so maybe.

• 17:19Dax Shepard?

  Terribly different. I mean, you guys are pretty young.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  No, no, no. Even like when my brother was little, which is eight years below me, ADD was if you have that, you're problematic.

• 17:30Dax Shepard?

  Sure, but there's no reason that the child couldn't understand that they have ADHD and explain what limitations and what other things are gonna be coming their way. So they have an expectation and some tolerance. They can understand that.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  I think that could have happened, but I also think, I don't thought about this a ton since I'm a parent now. How would I have handled that differently in that time? It was so stigmatized. There was a kid who had ADHD, a couple of grades above me, in that private school. And that kid got expelled for putting fireworks in a toilet. And they were like, this kid is nothing.

• 18:03Dax Shepard?

  And he's broke.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  We don't know what to do with him. He can't be at school anymore. And all the room parents were talking about it. I was just very highly aware of this. And then I was also the only brown kid in this sea of white children. I already felt weird. So I think my parents probably were doing at that point what they thought was the best. They were trying to intervene.

• 18:25Dax Shepard?

  They think they're protecting you.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:27Dax Shepard?

  But I don't think lack of information is ever protection, personally.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  You're not wrong. They redeemed themselves big, because I'll tell you what they did that was correct. So after that, so I'm like, yeah, I don't know where my vitamin is.

• 18:39Dax Shepard?

  Next topic.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  And they're like, okay, heads up. Vitamin is actually ADHD medication. You have ADHD. I was like, no, I don't. I've been medicated against my will. I feel really angry about this.

• 18:52Dax Shepard?

  Deceived.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Yes. And so I was like, let's just start over. So then I really tried to apply myself in school. I would wake up at 5:30 in the morning. I would start studying. I would study for like 12 hours a day. I'd be so into it that I would get into periods where I was like, I should probably go eat. And I was like, no, no, no, I gotta finish this chapter. I was just trashing my body to get those results. And I took another exam. And after my best efforts, I still got a 60%. Why? Because I was so tired the day before the test and so rundown that I was foggy. And I couldn't think at that time. And I was like, previously, when I was on this vitamin, I never had those problems. I don't understand what's happening.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  And so then my dad was like, listen, you might not make it through medical school. Just come home. Who cares? Let's learn about your brain. He brings me back to California and we go to a library, straight up old school library, pulling out textbooks. Both of us were just sitting on the floor. He is reading textbooks about ADHD and he's like, this sounds like you. I'm like, that does sound like me. And so we learned so much and I thought it was handled in such a curious and open way. Him and my mom both were like, We wish that we had that verbiage to tell you. We didn't know. And you were under our care for so long. We didn't know what a fracturing there would be when you left and you were out of that environment.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  So then, truly, I had to like scrape and claw to get out of that hole. But eventually, I tried a bunch of different medications. And some of them wouldn't let me eat and some of them wouldn't let me sleep. There were some, they were a disaster. But then it was the combination of finding a good medication and finding the right therapeutic things. And I don't think I truly figured it out until I got into residency. So after med school, I was just surrounded by psychiatrists and therapists. And I was like, this is my happy place. Yeah. This is great. Because med school, it was so hard. The entirety of med school. It was like all of my attendings. I don't know whether I was already pegged as a problem. But I had an episode where there was an attending who came to my office. I didn't do very well on a test. And he had been kind of rough on me the whole time.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  But he's like, don't worry about it. You know what we're gonna do? And we had these little cubicle offices. And he just brings like a box of them and he starts packing up my office. And he's like, you could just go home. You came here for a reason. Maybe you'll meet your husband here. And I was like.

• 21:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Oh. Oh, my god. And I was so, especially now as a mom of a girl. I was like, if anyone spoke to my girl like that, I would be feral. In that moment, you're so embarrassed and you're so confused. Like, why is someone who's supposed to be helping me through my educational steps doing this? You just don't do anything. And so I just carried that. Yeah. And so, but then, I feel like residency just reversed all of that. Because I felt traumatized in med school. And then in residency, all those pieces got rebuilt. And they were like, this is what you're good at? Lead with that. Yeah. And then we'll work on the backend.

• 21:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you've become specialized in ADHD.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  I'm taking off my shoes.

• 21:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, please.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, do it.

• 21:52Dax Shepard?

  You can dump the socks too, whatever you want.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  No one's ready for that.

• 21:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay. I would love to know. The historical understanding of ADHD as a condition, I'd love to start with when maybe it first enters the DSM, or when does it appear? And what did we think it was then? And how would we now define it today?

• 22:12Speaker 02

  So the problem with that is it has had such an evolving course, and it has had so many different names. When it was first noticed, it was in the 1700s. We had a patient who was extremely restless. And that's what we're describing now as fidgeting, or a sign of like that physical impulsivity. And then as it moved on, it got the name a hyperkinetic condition. That was an interesting kind of segue, because it really dialed down on the hyperactive component. Then, as we progressed, we didn't get into formal ADD territory, which it's not called anymore, until the 80s, I believe.

• 22:46Dax Shepard?

  That's when I was introduced to this concept. It was ADD.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, ADD. Yeah, and that's what I was diagnosed with initially. That came later. And then, just recently, in the DSM V, I got beef with the DSM V.

• 22:59Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's a lot of beef to be had with the DSM in general.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  So now, what our standard diagnosis is, is ADHD is Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. It's broken into three subtypes. So if you have ADHD, it's always called ADHD, but you can have the inattentive presentation, you can have the hyperactive presentation, or you can have the combined type, which is kind of like a combination of both. A huge problem is people sometimes are like, I can't have ADHD because I'm not hyperactive. Because it's in the name. Right. Yeah, I don't like that.

• 23:27Dax Shepard?

  It's too wide of an umbrella, we would say, maybe.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  It's too wide, but it's also too narrow. It focuses so, so, so stringently on just the focus components, and it doesn't touch at all on other areas of regulation. Because I think ADHD at its base, it's a dopamine dysregulation error. So you have dopamine dysregulation when it comes to attention. You have dopamine dysregulation when it comes to impulsivity. You have dopamine dysregulation with sleep, with appetite, with emotions. All of that is so huge, but we never really touch on it. With the emotional side of things in particular, if we don't change that with ADHD, this is why people are going to get misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression for a million, billion years.

• 24:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I guess currently, though, it is diagnosed through symptoms, yeah? You're reporting symptoms.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:17Dax Shepard?

  If it fills enough criteria, we would say you have it. My curiosity is... Are we approaching, or do you believe we'll get to a point where there will be different diagnostic tools? DNA markers where we'll go, oh, we see this clumping of this here. Would it be FMRI brain scan where we would see something that would let us know? Is there going to be a day where we can read the actual percentages of neurotransmitters and say, oh, you have this exact cocktail that ends up to this? Like, are we approaching any kind of diagnostic tool that's not just symptom related?

• 24:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 24:51Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Let me tell you why on all of those fronts. I think about that all the time. If there was something tangible we could grab onto and check a level of something, that would be amazing. So with the levels of dopamine, dopamine, serotonin, you can usually check those. There are a lot of things floating around with like a urine test where you pee and then they check your levels. The reason why those are incredibly unreliable is because sometimes it's not truly that you don't have enough dopamine. It's just not present in the spot where you need it to be at the right time.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  It's a dysregulation.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  So what happens if I come to you and I'm like, okay, I think I have it? What do you ask?

• 25:28Speaker 02

  So there's a couple of things. The thing that makes a good ADHD diagnostic interview is that not only are you checking for symptoms, but you are simultaneously ruling out other things. And I think that's what makes it such a complicated thing to do. Because I have patients who have come in and they're like, I went online for an assessment and it says I definitely have it. And I'm like, what? And I understand the thing about ADHD that I know because I have it. When you are right in the middle of trying to navigate a brain that feels so overly chaotic for you, you are willing to point yourself in any direction to fix it.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right.

• 26:06Dax Shepard?

  You're desperate.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  That population is a vulnerable population because they are the people desperate to want help. So I understand why people are taking tests online. It's just not a super valid test because it's capturing you. In a very subjective manner, it's not giving good timelines. It's not ruling out any other things. So it's giving this very skewed kind of thing. With ADHD, when you're looking at the criteria, you're screening for both the inattentive symptoms, the hyperactive symptoms, and then obviously you'll get if it's combined from both of those. You want to check timelines, see if these symptoms presented before 12. When you're assessing for an adult, that can get tricky because if you're asking them to recall retroactive data, that's hard. A lot of people don't remember and a lot of people have spent so much time during their

• 26:51Speaker 02

  childhood where their parents have masked, covered up, fixed kind of symptomology that it's hard to assess. So that's difficult. You have to really dig back to get good criteria. And then when you're asking questions, like for example, with the inattentiveness, you're asking, is it hard to stay engaged with a task? Do you feel like it's difficulty to organize things? Do you feel like you get distracted halfway through the conversation? You're asking things about focus and focus adjacent topics, but you also have to ask, is this present during a depressive episode? Uh huh. Is this present when there's substances involved? Did you notice this before or after you got on thyroid medication?

• 27:32Speaker 02

  You're asking all of these things while you're doing a simultaneous screening for other things. So it becomes pretty complicated.

• 27:41Dax Shepard?

  It's so dynamic.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  You're doing a comprehensive medical rule out. It's confusing from a psychiatric perspective. Like, is this bipolar? Is this ADHD? Is this depression? Is this anxiety? Is this trauma? They're all things that overlap really beautifully and can mimic it. So you need to be able to kind of pull from the diagnosis, what the patient is saying, ask the right questions to get to where you're going. And I'll tell you, a lot of people come to me 100% dead set, I have ADHD. And by the time we're done with the interview, it's like, no, you didn't. I mean, this was trauma. This is what was causing it. Yeah. And so it takes someone who's been trained to be able to discern that.

• 28:20Dax Shepard?

  Over a protracted period of time as well, I would imagine. This isn't something you're doing in five minutes. You really need to learn quite a bit before you're there.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  You do need to learn a lot.

• 28:29Dax Shepard?

  And then we probably get into the other issue, which is, I'm sure it is a spectrum condition. So what do we say that 79% of these symptoms equals it, or 71% or whatever? You know, when is it a disorder? When are you one deviation below a disorder? You could still be suffering a lot of the symptoms before you're Chronically in this. Yeah, formally or pathologically in this condition. And it doesn't mean that's irrelevant that you're just a step before it. So my great curiosity is, so what are the inattentive symptoms? And I also want to talk about how it manifests differently in men and women and boys and girls. To your point, my hunch is the DSM was originally disassembled with the boy symptoms.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 29:09Dax Shepard?

  And so I imagine they really present differently in males and females. So how do they and what are those symptoms?

• 29:15Speaker 02

  So with inattentive, you're looking at difficulty with starting a task, staying engaged in a task, completing tasks, having difficulty with disorganization. You're looking at issues with executive function, the skills that are required for processing and getting a goal done, goal-oriented behaviors done. Those are kind of more the inattentive symptomology. Hyperactive, you're thinking more like physical and verbal impulsivity. These are the kids and adults who have difficulty staying in their chair. They're constantly fidgeting, they're blurting out things, they're.

• 29:51Dax Shepard?

  Interrupting.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Interrupting.

• 29:54Dax Shepard?

  Ding ding ding ding.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Also, we should say Dax is looking for a diagnosis by the end of this.

• 30:00Dax Shepard?

  Can I just tell you one second how I got interested? You must know Gabor Maté.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:03Dax Shepard?

  I'm walking him to his car and he says to me, have you ever been diagnosed with ADHD? And I just went, that's a weird thing for him to say and he's an expert on it. So I just went like, oh, that's really interesting he said that. And then I too, my algorithm became like everyone else's and I start seeing these different things. I interview a friend who's been diagnosed since he was a kid and he tells me that ADHD folks have an outsized sense of justice. And I'm like, if that in fact is one, I definitely suffer. So, you know, I'm just not oblivious to, a lot of these things do sound a lot like me.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Here's the deal, I am not going to diagnose you.

• 30:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't want you to. And I'm not, I'm actually not looking for that. I don't care if I do or I don't have it.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Well, you should. I think that there is nothing more liberating than understanding your brain. You deserve to have a good diagnosis and to know how your brain works. When I went from not knowing what was going on and then I sat with my dad and then we actually went back to a physician and he explained like, these are the things that are going on in your brain and this is why you might have difficulty with this. I gave myself. So much, number one, grace about things that I beat myself up about for years and years.

• 31:08Dax Shepard?

  Right, right. The self-flagellation, which again is, I understand, one of the conditions.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Emotional regulation needs to be as part of that. For example, so my dad passed last year in April.

• 31:21Dax Shepard?

  I'm sorry.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  We found out he had lung cancer. We found out he had the spot and they were like, it's annoying, but we'll get it treated, whatever. So we go, we get it treated. He goes through the chemo, he goes through radiation. He calls me one day and he's like, I just don't feel great. So I abort a flight. I go over, I'm like, you look awful. I take him to the hospital. Everyone's like, no, we can't do a PET scan. It's too soon. I was like, do it. We don't care if insurance doesn't cover it. Something's wrong. It was everywhere and he died 13 days later. What?

• 31:49Dax Shepard?

  13 days.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. 13 days. Well, what I noticed, I think this is probably why I feel so passionately about the emotional regulation part, is that the colliding of grief and ADHD was so destabilizing for me. It was like my brain exploded. The brain fog was so, and grief, horrific for everybody. But I think for someone with ADHD who's experiencing that emotional dysregulation already, I had no idea how I was ever going to get through coping with those big emotions. I was like, this is too much for my brain. I can't parent. I can't get through a workday and see these patients without just losing it.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  So when I was going through all of that and I had a really tough time with that, because I knew I had ADHD. I mean, it was hard because I was like, this is tremendous. I felt like I was completely broken down and starting from scratch. I was like, because I know how my brain works, I need to create systems that are very low lift for me right now and find a way to rebuild that way. If I didn't have a diagnosis or an understanding of my brain, like this actually makes sense to me, or this is what I believe is going on, I think I would have just kept trying to do what everyone else told me to do, which didn't work. Yeah.

• 33:05Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Apple TV, the new US home of Formula One. You can now watch complete all access live coverage of every Grand Prix, including practice, qualifying and sprints, all in one place. I will be consuming all of those things, Monica.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  I know you will.

• 33:26Dax Shepard?

  I kill for Friday to start watching practice one, following it on a sprint weekend. Oh my gosh, two races. And this season brings a ton of new energy to the sport. New teams like Cadillac and Audi just joining the grid, new drivers stepping into major seats, Lando Norris defending his first World Drivers Championship, and all eyes on Lewis Hamilton in his second season with Ferrari and a brand new circuit in Madrid. Plus, a new US home for Formula One. You can watch every race live only on Apple TV. Watch on Apple devices, Android devices, smart TVs, streaming devices, gaming consoles, or on the web at tv.apple.com. All part of one Apple TV subscription alongside hundreds of exclusive shows and movies.

• 34:09Dax Shepard?

  Watch the Formula One Australian Grand Prix live on Saturday, March 7th at 11:00 PM Eastern, or watch race replays on demand anytime only on Apple TV, the new US home of F1. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking your phone's battery before heading out, that'll get you every time. Of course, your phone dies on the way to meet someone, leaving you wandering around quietly panicking about being in the wrong spot. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North America Insurance Co. and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.

• 34:54Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Intuit Turbo Tax. April 15th is coming up fast, and if you're like most people, you're probably dreading the whole tax thing. You know the old way, sitting in some waiting room for hours or sending over your tax docs and waiting and waiting for any kind of update. You want something modern and tech forward. But you also want that human connection. And this year brings a major upgrade. Intuit TurboTax now has in-person locations nationwide. You can walk into a tech-enabled TurboTax location near you and meet face-to-face with a real tax expert. Drop off your documents in the store and see them uploaded to your TurboTax app instantly. Just like that, you're done. Your new TurboTax expert stays back and works tirelessly

• 35:39Dax Shepard?

  to get you every dollar you deserve, while you get real-time notifications as you go about your day. Honestly, it feels like someone finally figured out what we've all been wanting. It's not some sterile tax office from 1987, and it's not just an app where you're on your own. It's both. The human expertise with smart, modern tech. You drop off your stuff, go about your day, and get real-time updates as your expert works through everything. That's the upgrade. Head to TurboTax.com to find a store location near you and get matched with a TurboTax expert with real-time updates and iOS app. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Dax, is there anything better than crawling into a perfect bed on a cold fall night? Candlelit, hoodie on, maybe even some rain outside. The dream.

• 36:28Dax Shepard?

  That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  I know, and thanks to Helix, my bed actually lives up to the vibe. All I had to do was take the Helix Sleep Quiz, and within two minutes, they matched me to a mattress built for exactly how I sleep. I have a midnight mattress. It also has cooling technology, which I really...

• 36:48Dax Shepard?

  Increasingly so.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  I need it. I have to have it. And I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp for optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful.

• 36:59Dax Shepard?

  She is not wrong. I have one too, and it's been such a game changer for sleep. And I love that they make it so easy. Free shipping right to your door. And with their Happy with Helix Guarantee, you'll get a full 365 nights to try it. A whole year to live in that cozy. They've got over 20 mattress models, so no matter how you sleep, they've got one for you.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And it's not just us saying it. Helix has been named the most awarded mattress brand by Forbes, Wired, and more. You gotta try it for yourself.

• 37:26Dax Shepard?

  Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site-wide. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site-wide. Helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, after he passed, I don't drink. I don't really do anything super interesting. I was just like, my brain is so loud. I want it to be quiet right now.

• 37:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  I wanted to be quiet. And I was just like, what can I do? I knew at that point, it was my emotional regulation. And I was looking for a way to medicate this.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:09Dax Shepard?

  You needed relief.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I was like, that isn't something that I can medicate. My brain is having a really hard time with things that are really big. And so I need to find safety to get through these kind of moments. And my husband, his mom passed because of brain cancer years before. So he was really well versed and supported all of us through it. He kind of saw what I needed and helped me through that moment. But I think if I didn't know about ADHD, I would have ended up in a really weird spot.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I believe that. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, now back to the male female differences. And my hunch was that the original criteria was probably just addressing the boy issues.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:48Dax Shepard?

  And you thought you agreed. So how do they express differently?

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Going back to like, boys getting diagnosed way earlier than females. Typically, boys present with more of the hyperactive symptomology. So they're the ones who are causing problems in the classroom. They are disruptive, they're getting up in the class, they're bothering others.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Which is probably why you got diagnosed early, because you were behaving like that.

• 39:07Dax Shepard?

  Because of the coup, like a boy.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Absolutely, and I think about that a lot. And I'm like, I'm actually pretty grateful for that presentation because I got picked up. But girls, on the other hand, are mostly inattentive. They're like the daydreamers that are spacing out in class and they're doodling. So those girls are pleasures to have in class. They're not bothering anybody. They're getting passed along. And then what happens is as the external pressures rise, and as they're doing harder things, as they're doing more adult things, like getting into relationships or starting families, your needs exponentially increase and what is demanded of you increases. And you just aren't able to cope anymore. And then it feels very much like a breaking point.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Two other reasons that people assigned female at birth don't get diagnosed. Number one is the hormonal part of all of this. When women are going through hormonal shifts, when your estrogen is dropping, your dopamine drops also. Your symptoms get worse. Now... These women or girls who are going through their first periods or things like that, their ADHD symptoms are 10 out of 10 horrible. And they're going through all of these attentional issues. They're also going through emotional dysregulation because they're like, what do I do? My dopamine's all off. And that's when they're like, she's bitchy because of her period.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Are you on your period?

• 40:29Dax Shepard?

  Well, yeah, I saw a post of yours that was like 30% PMS symptoms for ADHD girls versus 10% for the general pop.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  It's significant.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Wait, really? You feel it 30% more? Is that what you're saying?

• 40:43Speaker 02

  It's more common. PMDD is significantly more common in the ADHD population. It sucks because you're in a situation where you're like, okay, well, my mood is already garbage around that time before my period, but now I can't focus and I can't do the things I want to do and it's even harder for me to emotionally deal with it. Like, that doesn't seem fair. So that's another huge one. And then the last one is quite literally just, I'm not trying to get political here, or it's not even political, but there is a societal difference in expectations for females. So females are expected to kind of toe the line and mask. So what is acceptable for a boy to be doing in class is very unacceptable for a girl. So the girl now learns to hide that behavior.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  But then what happens is that this high achieving, very capable student or child goes through life, they are now getting applauded for masking their stuff. And so when, at times, it becomes overwhelming and they can't, people are like, what's wrong with you? Why are you so emotional? What's happening? Why are things falling apart? Why are you breaking down at work? It feels like such a huge shift in their baseline functioning, but really, they're just busting their ass trying to feel and look normal.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I want to ask you if these things I've heard anecdotally or around the digital campfire are in fact people ADHD over indexing. So there's a rejection?

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Sensitive dysphoria?

• 42:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, tell me about that.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  I would love to tell you about that.

• 42:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  So I've become obsessed with that. Since my dad was sick, I mean, I was just like, what's happening? Why am I so sensitive to certain things? So rejection sensitive dysphoria is the very, very real emotional, sometimes physical, pain that comes from real or perceived rejection or criticism. So someone criticizes you or rejects you, or you think that that's happening, and all of a sudden, you can't stop thinking about it. You're beating yourself up about it. No one likes getting rejected. That's not it. I have told my husband, it is like someone sucked the air out of my lungs. It feels that significant to me. Rejection sensitive dysphoria, I think it's so important to recognize and to know about because it's so hard for the person who's experiencing.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  It's also so hard for the people around that person.

• 43:06Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  The relationships. Run at the tiptoe around them.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. So when my husband and I get into fights, I'm so sensitive that if I know we're kind of beefing with each other, he'll look at me and I will just start crying. And then I will chase him around the house. And I'm like, and another thing, and another thing. He's like, chill out. Because I feel like this urgency that I have to resolve this so that this feeling goes away.

• 43:29Dax Shepard?

  This is the email, right?

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Yes. So what we do, I'm not an effective communicator when I'm in that state. I'm emotional and I'm angry and I'm scared and I'm sad and all of the things all at once. And it's too much right in that moment. So what I do is I literally write an email and I draft it and I draft it. It usually takes three or four passes because I'm like, that's not what I want to say. So already by the end of it, I've come down pretty significantly.

• 43:53Dax Shepard?

  You've regulated a bit.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I've had this like safe place, the safety of my laptop. Where I'm like, this is my happy place. I can write this down and I could take as many tries as I want to make it sound the way I want. Then I send it off to him. And we have a whole folder of this. Usually I'll send him a text message. I'm like, I sent you something. He'll read it and then he will think about it and process it. And usually by that time, I'm like, I'm going to just go somewhere else. Like I'll also go sit in my closet or I'll go sit in the car or I'll go and hang out with the kids. I don't want to be around him because I'm looking for as he's reading it, what his face is doing. And so then what he'll do is he'll respond to it and he'll make pizza rolls.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  And then he'll put it out and then we'll have like a fun snack and we'll talk about it and then we'll be done. And it's the best system we've ever had.

• 44:40Dax Shepard?

  I loved reading that because I guess my knee jerk, this exists in my relationship. And my knee jerk is we are good enough communicators and we are smart enough. And we've all done enough work that we can sit down and talk about this. That's where I come from. It feels like a failure that we would have to be texting each other or emailing. But then hearing you say that, I was like, I also must admit, it does go smoother if those couple of steps happen before we confront something verbally. I'm happy to be relieved of the shame of us failing and being great at talking immediately, I guess.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  I don't know how people do talk immediately.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Whether it's ADHD or not, I think time is kind of important.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Time and giving yourself that space to regulate before you come into and like try to resolve a situation. Cause otherwise this is so messed up, but I think I'm realizing now that if I come off of an argument and I want to address it right away. I want to show him how hurt I feel and how badly that hurt. And it's not about resolving it.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  It's about wallowing in it and then I get angrier and madder.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  I mean, it's pause when agitated, it's the whole thing.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:46Dax Shepard?

  How about this inflated sense of justice or this inflated discomfort within justice?

• 45:52Speaker 02

  So it's not a clinical term. You see it a lot in autism as well, but it has to do with like rigidity, being very rigid and having a set expectation in your brain. And then having it not come to fruition in the way that you planned. I think that's kind of where it stems from. And so you're looking at like a huge gamut of presentations of ADHD. So there's some people who in order to maintain their ADHD, they have become very rigid about things. They have built these structures for themselves where it's like, this is how it has to be because this is how I can function.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:25Dax Shepard?

  That's where I can have compassion for it is you're very easily dysregulated. You somehow learn this about yourself, whether you're conscious of it or not. And yes, the more things that you can map out and plan out and control, the less chance you'll have at dysregulation. So I'm sympathetic to it. My thing is like the airport, all my character defects come out at the airport because I'm being asked to cooperate. With the TSA to do things that I think are illogical or make no sense. I'm powerless. People are taking photos of us. I don't like that. They might be taking pictures of my kids. This big storm of things and I do a pretty effective job of controlling my day, you know, normally.

• 47:06Dax Shepard?

  And so, yes, I have learned that before we leave to the airport for the best outcome, I have to have that expectation. That helps me enormously to just go like, okay, we're gonna get there and some guy's gonna tell you to hold your pants up and also hold your hands over your head at the same time, which you know is impossible. People are gonna take pictures. They're curious. Get over that. But if I walk in ill-prepared or unprepared for what's gonna happen, that's when some massive dysregulation happens pretty quickly.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're all trying to get by. There's some brains that are just more sensitive to these things than others.

• 47:40Dax Shepard?

  Do you ever spend any of your time or focus thinking about the evolutionary aspect of it? I do wonder if this would even be a quote "condition" without the incredible amount of stimulation. What do you think about that?

• 47:53Speaker 02

  There's been some thought about if we're looking at ADHD just from evolutionary perspective and we're looking at hunters versus gatherers. ADHD people are the people who are going off and they're hunting and they're doing these things that involve risk and adaptation and impulsivity to some degree.

• 48:09Dax Shepard?

  Novelty-seeking.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're great at that. And now we're putting that same group of people that would thrive in that environment in a new environment. And I don't necessarily think it is, well, maybe it is due to all the stimulation, but I think it is just society adapts and evolves based on what its needs are. And the needs are, there is just a much larger neurotypical population. And so the world is built for a neurotypical. Now you're expecting this population of people whose brains are wired differently to occupy space in a world that just wasn't built for them. And a really easy example of that is for ADHD. A lot of people have delayed melatonin onset. So their brains don't feel a normal, I feel sleepy at 10 and then I'm gonna wake up at 7.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Theirs are like, I want to go to sleep at 1 and I would love to wake up at 10 a.m. But that's not where society runs. You've missed three hours of meetings already.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:05Dax Shepard?

  You're right. There was a lot of different outlets for a lot of different types of brains before. But we have really homogenized the work experience, which is you go to a box, you sit in a chair, you do this thing. There's not like, oh yeah, why don't you go explore over that other peak? We'll weave the baskets. We're more apt to sit here and weave these baskets. You know, everyone has a bit of an outlet. Now it's like, no, no, everyone's supposed to wake up at 6. And everyone's supposed to do this and that. So you had funneling us all into the same thing. There's going to be a lot of tension there.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  I think it's tough because you are expecting people as you're growing up to function and learn skills in an environment that's not built for them. So you're already kind of starting off at a deficit and then, you know, you hit adulthood and they're like, okay, fend for yourself. You haven't really had time to build good skills unless you've actually really dialed down, understood ADHD, learn how to make accommodations for yourself. It's kind of like you're going through this environment that you never really figured out with schooling. You never really grabbed hold of it and then now you're an adult and you have to figure out what to do with it. But you don't have any of those foundational skill sets.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  What do you think about the fact that so many people, especially from social media and stuff, are self-diagnosing? I have a problem with that. And this comes up a lot on the show. That's partly why we were so excited to have you. But I think it's a problem that so many people are walking around saying, I have ADHD, when they don't know if they have it or they think they have it based on what they've seen. Because for me, I'm like, well, what about the people who really have it? To me, that takes away from, it is something happening in your brain.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  A neurodevelopmental condition.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Right. What are your thoughts on that?

• 50:45Speaker 02

  So I kind of have a hot take on that. And my hot take is that I think self-diagnosis is actually good to a point. And the reason for that, and I'll tell you what the point is too. I think that it is incredibly valid to have someone learn about what is happening in their brain, find things out on social media, or in books, or in literature, or research that looks like them, and grab hold of that and start learning verbiage of how to describe their own internal environment. I think that's a wonderful thing, and I think that that can be a wonderful stepping stone to accessing care. And I know that's not an accessible step for a lot of people, but that next step,

• 51:26Speaker 02

  I have problems with it when it moves from self-diagnosis to the medication standpoint. That's really where I start to draw the line, because when you start trying to treat yourself, you haven't done the exclusionary kind of thing to figure out what else is going on. And medications of any type, they're not without risk. You're doing things that could potentially impact other things in big ways. So if you think you have ADHD, and you want to learn behavioral strategies that help an ADHD brain, go for it, man.

• 51:55Dax Shepard?

  My hunch, Veronica, is that your issue is much more the person who says, "I have ADHD, so deal with this." Using it as an excuse. I don't think you would ever have a problem with someone going, "I think I have ADHD, so wow, I should explore these tools that have been shown to work really well with ADHD. Let me try them. Great, these are helping." I think your fear is probably more like, "I proclaimed I'm this, and you have to lower your expectations of me now."

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Obviously, if someone's like, "Oh, I think I have it. I'm gonna do research and learn about it and figure out how to help myself." That's amazing. That's what I would want for everyone. But that, to me, is not what's happening. I think people are saying, "I have it, and so I'm late."

• 52:38Dax Shepard?

  And I think the reason I don't have an issue with it is I come from a background where alcoholics self-diagnose. That is the full premise. No one can tell you're an alcoholic. You have to tell yourself you're an alcoholic. And then you have these steps at your disposal if you want to try this. And no one's declaring, "I'm an alcoholic, so deal with the fact I didn't come to work." So for me, the association with the self-diagnosis is very positive.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  I think you're right. If you're using ADHD as an excuse, and if you're saying, "I can't do this," and you don't have a formal diagnosis, for someone who does have ADHD... That can be extremely irritating.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  And I've been guilty of that, where people have said that, and I'm like, you don't know what it's like. You can't possibly know like I do. At the end of the day, I have no way of knowing that. I have no way of knowing what's going on in their brain.

• 53:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you don't know.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  What their dysfunction is, I don't know. So I've tried to peel that back and figure out and look at, why is this bothering me so much? But using self-diagnosis as a tool to get steps to get a formal diagnosis, or get more access to knowledge about things and research about things, so you can learn about your internal environment. I think that there is a huge space for lived experience in talking about that.

• 53:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, your fear someone will be like, I have ADHD, I have time blindness. Don't ever expect me to be on time.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that happens. And it's like, guys, I don't want to be on time either.

• 54:01Dax Shepard?

  But I think it should be more like, I have ADHD, yeah, I think I relate to this time blindness thing. What are the three best tools?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:08Dax Shepard?

  Because I know I do have to be on time places.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  We all have stuff, and we have to figure out how to live in this world. You know, we're not islands.

• 54:15Dax Shepard?

  That's why I'm gonna just quickly say neurotypical is bullshit as well. It's the same reason that DSM is fucked up, because it has some premise of normal, which simply doesn't exist. There might be eight people who don't have something going on.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  There are zero people.

• 54:29Dax Shepard?

  We're all variable.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  And I think the neurodivergent terminology, it was like a psychological term that came out in the 90s. And it was really this umbrella term to talk about autism and ADHD and all of these other things. And the neurotypical was just kind of like a byproduct. What's the opposite of this?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, DSM has problems.

• 54:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 54:50Dax Shepard?

  How do stimulants work? Why is that an effective medication?

• 54:54Speaker 02

  This is a weird area of medicine, because it's not this cut and dried mechanism. So basically, where a majority of that deficit happens is that frontal lobe. So directly underneath your forehead, that's where all that executive function, judgment, processing happens. So what a stimulant does, from just like a very rudimentary perspective, if your brain has a million different things going on, a million different times, because of that underlying dopamine and norepinephrine dysregulation, so everything is just floating by at an incredible space. You can take a stimulant, a riddle and derivative, something in that family. And it actually works a little bit counterintuitively because it slows things down.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  And really, it's not that it's slowing things down. It just speeds everything up to match what's going on with your brain.

• 55:43Dax Shepard?

  It like synchronizes it almost. Yeah, it is very counterintuitive. I very much feel like I would benefit, but I also know I can't be on that.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, there's so many better things.

• 55:56Dax Shepard?

  Than being on a stimulant.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so here's the deal. If you're treating ADHD, you could do it behaviorally or you could do it medicinally, right? And with medicine, for ADHD, there are stimulants and there are non-stimulants. And so the stimulants are what everyone thinks of and they're our gold standard right now because they work well. They work reliably and you could tell pretty quickly, is this gonna work or is this not gonna work? Those are things like Adderall derivatives, Ritalin derivatives. Those are all part of that class. But for a lot of people with ADHD, stimulants, even the long-acting ones, they'll give you like a six to eight hour coverage. But ADHD exists outside of that six to eight hours. So then it's like, what are we doing for the rest of that? So non-stimulants, a lot of them give you a 24-hour coverage.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  For the great majority, they either fall under the category of an antidepressant or a blood pressure medication or some other class.

• 56:49Dax Shepard?

  Interesting.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  And you are getting additional benefits. So for those people who have ADHD, who are also anxious, here's a medication that's gonna help with ADHD. Well, it is a blood pressure medication. So there's long-acting formulations of blood pressure medications that can help with anxiety and ADHD. Or you're doing an antidepressant, which is gonna help with depression and anxiety and ADHD. Or you can do something long-acting that people take for shift work disorder. So it really depends on what you need and what you're looking for and what else is happening at the same time. But for a lot of people, when they're coming to the doctor, they're assuming, if I have ADHD, I need to be on a stimulant. I need to be on Viva Ants, I need to be on Adderall, I need to be on Ritalin.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  And 90% of the time, that's not the direction we're starting at. Because I always tell people, we need to build skills, so we need to work on that. That's not possible because your ADHD is dysregulating everything. We need to give a medication that's going to give 24 hour coverage as much as possible so that you have a chance to kind of see and build. There are some people who just that diagnosis immediately lifts them. It gives them the permission to study and make changes and do those things that they don't need to be on medication. So it's not like an absolute, you have to be on medication to treat your ADHD. But there are a lot of people that in order to build and cement those habits,

• 58:13Speaker 02

  they need to be on medication and that's also incredibly valid. It just depends on how your brain is wired.

• 58:18Dax Shepard?

  So your first book, Self-Care for People with ADHD, you have over a hundred tips. It's fast moving. It's for an ADHD brain to read this book.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  Just little page long. I could tell you my favorite one in that book and it's do a headstand. That's not the one that's going to work the best or anything. It's just the weirdest one. But there is something about that change. One, you're doing something weird. How I figured this out is when I was in medical school, I was studying for organic chemistry. It was just so boring to me. I was like, I can't do this anymore. My mom would be like, just do something to change your position or just do something to distract yourself a little bit. And it was that inversion of a headstand. That's hilarious. Not necessarily the most impactful, but that's one. If you're bored and in the middle of stuff. Another one I think that is important. So the book is broken up into separate areas

• 59:05Speaker 02

  and it breaks it down in terms of emotional self-care, physical self-care, professional self-care, all of those other things. I think if I were to pick from those, because some of that book is also things like giving yourself permission to grieve if you haven't gotten a diagnosis, because a lot of these people are coming to a diagnosis late in life. I'm done with the career portion of my life. I'm done with the child rearing portion. I missed on so much and now I'm having to grieve this diagnosis.

• 59:33Dax Shepard?

  I bet there's a feeling of, oh man, I could have blank, which is heartbreaking.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  It's hard, but you know what I tell patients who are in that position is that this whole time you have been building skills. You have been building structures. You have had this brain this whole time. And so now it's what you do with it and it's what you make of it with this new opportunity. And so you wouldn't have built those skills that you needed if things were different, potentially. Another very, very important one is just making time for physical activity. I feel like such a hypocrite because I. Hate exercise. I think it sucks. It's so boring and it's so hard for me to motivate myself, but it truly does make my brain work better.

• 1:00:15Dax Shepard?

  Let's talk about the forthcoming book.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Dax Shepard?

  That will be out. That's called.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Too Sensitive.

• 1:00:21Dax Shepard?

  Too Sensitive: Rejection, Resilience, and the Science of Feeling Deeply.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  I like this.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:00:27Dax Shepard?

  So is this exclusively ADHD? Because this feels like this could encompass more than just ADHD.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  No, it's not exclusively. But you know, the thing about, like, we were talking about rejection sensitivity. It's for you. Almost 100% of people with ADHD have rejection sensitivity.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  I feel like I have ADHD now.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  I also have hypochondria.

• 1:00:47Dax Shepard?

  The irony of all this would be, yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  I know that if I have it. Don't self-diagnose.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. But I do have that.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  So the concept of rejection sensitivity is for you. I started writing this book when I was all dysregulated with my dad. It came about during that time and I was like, this is the worst part of my ADHD, my emotional dysregulation. This is the thing that will bring me to my knees every time. If I can't focus or if I can't do things, I'll make a hack around it or I'll delegate. I can't delegate someone to take care of my emotions.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  And so I'm like, there has to be a better way to think about this and learn about it and talk about it. And I think that's why I have so much beef with the DSM. By the way, Europe changed their criteria in 2019 to include emotional dysregulation as part of a core component. We haven't. And so I look at it like, say, your diabetes is so bad that you started to lose your vision. Now, instead of someone being like, oh, okay, well, let's fix your diabetes. They're like, no, no. Okay, let's just give you glasses. Let's treat anxiety and depression instead of treating the underlying diabetes. The underlying diabetes is ADHD and the anxiety and the depression and the rejection sensitivity and the emotional dysregulation, that's what's causing the vision loss.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Right. It's a symptom, not the cause.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  It's a core part of it. It's not a separate diagnosis. And so if we don't get on top of this, what happens, and I've seen it so many times, is that for women in particular, I'm seeing women who are. On antidepressant number six or seven. They're coming to me and they're like, I don't know what to do anymore. I think I have ADHD. Did you talk to someone about this? Yes, I've talked to my doctor for years. What did they say? First thing that they're gonna hear is they're gonna say, well, you're doing too well. There's no way you could have ADHD. The second thing they're gonna hear is, no, it's anxiety and depression. Let's treat that first. The third thing they're gonna hear is after their six or seven antidepressants in, then they're gonna say, listen, these antidepressants aren't working. Can I please look into ADHD?

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  They're gonna be like, we can't treat ADHD until your anxiety and depression are clear. These people aren't getting help and it's because emotional dysregulation isn't in the criteria.

• 1:02:53Dax Shepard?

  I have a loved one who has come to this late in life and it's so fucking impressive because they've done it without any help on their own. But they said to me, I finally realized that I'm processing everything different than everyone else around me. And I'm realizing that these really crazed states I am going through are that thing.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Dax Shepard?

  And it has not fixed it, but it has helped me go, oh, that thing's happening. And no one else around you is really experiencing it. So if I pop off now at work or try to let everyone know, A, they don't care because they're not experiencing it. And this is without any help from anybody. Just his ability to go, oh, that thing's happening is incredibly powerful. It really, I feel like, takes a lot of the heft of it away.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  And it probably gives you a little bit more agency. The way that this book is set up, the first part of it is truly just the science behind and a lot of the evolutionary perspective and just like the history of it, how it came about, the neurobiology, what is actually happening, what areas of the brain are being triggered that amygdala is being hyperactive because it's assessing threats all the time, even though it's not appropriate. And then the second part of the book is how deeply do you feel? So it's actually an assessment where you can actually walk through and be like, is this me? Where do I fall? It's broken down into like, you're probably in a spot where emotional sensitivity isn't a huge issue. You should read this if it applies to other people you love so you have better understanding. Or this probably does apply to you, maybe it's not all the time.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Or this is probably you. This is probably something that's pretty significant, but you haven't had really all that much verbiage for it because we don't talk about it. And then it goes into the tools you use. There's just 12 tools that you use. And then the last part of the book, which is my favorite, are real world examples of how you get triggered. So it's a quote, and then it is what's happening in your brain and then how you get out of that moment. So when I was researching, I was pulling from all these different psychological principles. I'm like, what actually does work? So this is just an amalgamation of all of those principles together to actually help with this select thing.

• 1:05:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, I can immediately think of several people I can't wait to buy it for, which will be triggering, but then.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Well, good. I can't decide on the cover, so you guys can help me with that.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Oh. Well, when you see it on your nightstand, don't be triggered.

• 1:05:22Dax Shepard?

  Well, Sasha, this has been a blast. You have a very popular Instagram account that would be very fun for people to go through because I think a lot of stuff would feel quite familiar as you describe it. Oh, there was one last thing selfishly I wanted you to talk about, and that is parenting with ADHD. What can you tell me about that?

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  It's hard. It's hard. Parenting with ADHD is a huge expansion of what your needs are because not only are you having to manage your own brain, you're having to manage and guide little people's brains as well.

• 1:05:57Dax Shepard?

  Help them regulate. That's really your job.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Yes, and model good behavior. And from the logistical standpoint, it feels like it's just a lot to do. My kids are in two separate classes, which is two different class party schedules, two different field trip schedules and two different teachers and end of school things and parent teacher conferences. And that probably doesn't sound super overwhelming, but that's so hard for me to keep track of. And which one is this? Which one is this? And like, you have to really create good systems around that. And I think the most, most vital thing that I could tell anybody who is parenting with an ADHD brain, give yourself grace. Let yourself mess up and have a hard time.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  Because when I got pregnant. I had numerous Pinterest boards of the kind of parent I wanted to be, like what I wanted their nursery to look like. Immediately, you have this kid, you're sleep deprived, you have breast milk everywhere. This is just not what you thought it was. And that goes out the window. And you're just like, this is probably gonna be harder than what I thought. And one of the best things that we've done as a family is work through moments that are hard and difficult kind of together as a team and problem solving. So there are times, this literally happened two days ago, where I was just like, this is hard for mom. Cause there is so much. So when you give me a show and tell bag and you're like, I have to do this by tomorrow and it's 8:30 at night, right before you're going to bed.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  You run downstairs and you're like, I forgot to do this and I have to bring it in the morning. That's hard for me and I'll do that. But this is why I snapped at that. Or this is why I had a hard time. And then what I tell my kids when we have conversations like that, like, any idea is a good idea. Come up with solutions and let's talk about it. And so they're like, well, he could have turned in his bags to you earlier today. Well, he could have figured out what he wanted to put in there.

• 1:07:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, siblings are great at coming up with ideas for the other sibling. I know what he could have done.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  So many good ideas.

• 1:08:03Dax Shepard?

  They're not great at figuring out what they should have done, but boy, they can see right through the problem in their sister.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's just giving yourself grace. And when you mess up, use it as a learning opportunity for everybody. I think I was so focused on hiding parts of myself from them where I'm like, what am I doing? I don't know what their brain is gonna look like.

• 1:08:21Dax Shepard?

  Well, again, your asymmetric rejection reaction. You can feel rejected from your family.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  I do. Getting burned by my five-year-old.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  My feelings, but here we are.

• 1:08:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay, well, this was lovely. Cannot wait for the new book. Currently, though, you could start with Self-Care for People with ADHD and then look for Too Sensitive: Rejection, Resilience, and the Science of Feeling Deeply. I hope you come back. This was a blast.

• 1:08:49Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:08:55Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Scottsdale, Arizona. Monica, with summer ending or heading into fall, I've been researching a nice, quick getaway location, and I keep coming back to Scottsdale, Arizona.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Ooh, Scottsdale's good. What's drawing you to it?

• 1:09:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, first of all, I have this wonderful memory of going there as a kid when I would go see my stepdad when he was working out there. The weather is perfect in fall. Warm, sunny, no humidity. And you can really do whatever you want with your time there. I want to do a sunrise hike through the Sonoran Desert, be surrounded by Saguaro, and then at the same afternoon, just completely melt into a spa treatment at one of their luxury resorts.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Oh, that sounds amazing. I want to do that. Also, I was there visiting my brother once, and I loved Old Town Scottsdale. It's so walkable. They have galleries and cute little restaurants and shops. The food scene alone is worth the trip.

• 1:09:47Dax Shepard?

  What I keep reading is that it's luxurious, but not stuffy. There's no pressure to do it a certain way. You can explore public art, check out the architecture, go off-roading in the desert, or just sit and watch a sunset.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  It really is the perfect fall reset.

• 1:10:01Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about all Scottsdale has to offer at unwindinscottsdale.com. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, HP, for supporting this episode. Their HP Smart Tank printer is the last printer you'll ever need. Oh, here we go, Monica. With a refillable ink tank and up to three years of ink included, so you get thousands of pages of cartridge-free printing. Hallelujah. To learn more, search for HP Smart Tank. We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment.

• 1:10:46Dax Shepard?

  For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills, and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life. Life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics. They're practitioners who bring real world experience into everything they teach. From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn at a pace that works for you. Visit walden.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV.

• 1:11:31Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most. Which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 1:12:15Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

• 1:12:23Speaker 03

  We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes.

• 1:12:31Dax Shepard?

  I have to say, I'm only three days into No Dairy.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  How's it going?

• 1:12:35Dax Shepard?

  And I'm already noticing.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good. Well, that's good.

• 1:12:38Dax Shepard?

  I was saying last night, I almost would rather have a runny nose all the time.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  You have to, yeah, decide, I guess.

• 1:12:44Dax Shepard?

  Ah, it's the worst when you know. It's better to live in ignorance.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:12:48Dax Shepard?

  Just go, oh, I'm just someone with a runny nose.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:12:52Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Well, then you can pick, like, if there's something you really want with cheese and you just know what you're getting yourself into.

• 1:12:59Dax Shepard?

  You just go, okay, I'm gonna cough. I'm gonna cough for a day.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:13:03Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna blow my nose a lot.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:13:05Dax Shepard?

  And that's gonna be that.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, but also good if you know you don't want to be coughing, if you have a big thing to do, if you have something to do on stage.

• 1:13:17Dax Shepard?

  If I'm gonna be like talking.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  For a living.

• 1:13:19Dax Shepard?

  For a living.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Dax Shepard?

  Someone's gotta edit around your coughing and throat clearing.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Sure. Sure, that, that. That's good to know. I would never, I mean, never say never.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  If I had to, I guess I would. But I could never give up cheese. It's the, it's my favorite food.

• 1:13:40Dax Shepard?

  It's so good. And it makes, it can make something that's virtually tasteless. Like a macaroni noodle on its own in a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese. You're not gonna eat that. You add that cheese to it. Now you've got one of nature's greatest offerings.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Best, best, best.

• 1:13:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I wanted to tell you that in a very fun way. Lincoln has now kind of joined a little bit into our sim talk. In so far as, we were laying in bed a couple nights ago. And she was telling a story about a girl in class had a caterpillar on her shoulder.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:14Dax Shepard?

  And apparently, there's like a season for this. And there's caterpillars all over the trees at school and they're dripping down on people.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. That just made me feel gross.

• 1:14:24Dax Shepard?

  And then we were just talking about caterpillars. And all of a sudden, I just had this thought and I said, you know, Lincoln, when we die and we wake up in like a medical room? And they go, you were in a simulation. I think one of the things they're gonna say is, and by the way, you thought that there was a tiny little sleeve of mayonnaise? And that that little sleeve of mayonnaise went into a dark cloth? And came out as a butterfly? And you bought into that?

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 1:14:54Dax Shepard?

  That's what it is. A caterpillar is just a little tube of mayonnaise. And we have bought into the idea that that thing

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Turns into a butterfly.

• 1:15:02Dax Shepard?

  Somehow goes into a dark cloth? And comes out as a butterfly is preposterous. When we're talking about like the bus maybe as proof of the sim. I now think the caterpillar butterfly metamorphosis story we've been told is insane. How would it go from mayonnaise to a butterfly?

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  Well, how would a seed this small?

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Turn into you.

• 1:15:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, the like the embryo?

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it starts as a sesame seed size.

• 1:15:35Dax Shepard?

  I know, that's crazy. That is crazy, but I don't think as nuts as like a little tube of goo goes into a cloth. And is now a flying, most beautiful, colorful structure. Where's it all coming from?

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  I just really don't call it that. It's like so nasty. Oh, my God.

• 1:15:54Dax Shepard?

  So then we're having a lot of fun with what else they were gonna say to us, like, you guys. He thought an octopus could swim over an environment and immediately become that environment without even looking. Their eyes are looking up at the surface of the water and then they they just hover over some coral. And then their whole body immediately is the color of the coral.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Oh, camouflage.

• 1:16:15Dax Shepard?

  Get real.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Look.

• 1:16:17Dax Shepard?

  Get real.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Beings are very impressive.

• 1:16:21Dax Shepard?

  Is there anyone you want to add to this list? So right now, it's like, leading the charge is like butterflies. We're gonna feel so stupid that we bought into that. And then and then for us, the octopi. Camouflaging.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  That's a big one.

• 1:16:33Dax Shepard?

  Have you watched it recently? It's Monica, it could swim over your face and it would just be your face. What are we talking about?

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Wait, really?

• 1:16:43Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  The camouflage, is that what you mean?

• 1:16:45Dax Shepard?

  The bioluminescence or whatever the thing it's called, it's identical to whatever it's swimming over. No way. It's not an LCD TV. It is. They're telling us it is.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Also a TV. I mean, all of it. It's all, it's.

• 1:17:00Dax Shepard?

  TV I'm fine with.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  No, a TV.

• 1:17:03Dax Shepard?

  This is a prehistoric glob of goo. Glob of goo.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:17:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you're fine with it.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  I'm still, I mean, I just think humans is that's a bigger, to me, that's a bigger leap from going from a sesame seed to you. Is bigger to me than the mayonnaise, god.

• 1:17:20Dax Shepard?

  But at least the thing is cell dividing and it's taking on building blocks through nutrition to create the new cells and you can just see the course of action. It's like it's doubling every time it divides. It's very trackable.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  That's a sesame seed.

• 1:17:36Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  With no eye, nothing.

• 1:17:38Dax Shepard?

  Becomes a human.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Dax Shepard?

  It's wild. It's wild. But again, this gooey slug enters a cloth. And then it flies away.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, yeah.

• 1:17:49Dax Shepard?

  You're not as perplexed by it, but I just think it's one of the.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  It's, it's a miracle.

• 1:17:53Dax Shepard?

  It's one of the hardest to believe things that happens in nature.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's some things like ladybugs that I don't like, but have grown to like a little more.

• 1:18:04Dax Shepard?

  Okay, what are they doing? That's so startling.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  Really, just the way they look. It's like, wow. Or like same with fruits. Or like the pineapple. It's like nature made this. Nature made this pineapple, this thing with spikes and this hat on it. And, and the sweet in it, like.

• 1:18:25Dax Shepard?

  I know, but I'm struggling with.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  You don't, okay, but you're not letting me.

• 1:18:29Dax Shepard?

  The gap between these two organisms. If you were to like, you just look at all of nature and we didn't know that those were the same things. They'd be two of the last things you ever even put in a category, a caterpillar and a butterfly. It's like an elephant going under a cloth and coming out as a rattlesnake.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  You don't like my examples. Or not my examples, they're just things that I find like wild about the world.

• 1:18:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're, um, you're really blown away with growth.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like, um, the ladybug doesn't grow. It just is very, it's just, how is it red with polka? It like, nature made polka dots, like perfect polka dots.

• 1:19:11Dax Shepard?

  That is astounding.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  On top, like. On an insect, like what? That doesn't even make sense.

• 1:19:17Dax Shepard?

  It is crazy. And then if it turned into a screwdriver at some point.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:19:23Dax Shepard?

  You'd be like, hold, hold on.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  I guess, yeah, I don't have that. I'm not that bewildered by metamorphosis and change.

• 1:19:32Dax Shepard?

  Turning into another animal.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz, cuz of the seed turning into you. Like, I'm primed with that and that.

• 1:19:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, my distinction is like, it was one thing and now it's another. At least the seed was always a human, you know?

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Well, the butterfly was always a caterpillar. It just.

• 1:19:48Dax Shepard?

  That's what they're trying to tell us.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  That's what they want us to believe. Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, Sim, the Sim is crazy.

• 1:19:58Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  It is. I mean, what about magic? What about magic?

• 1:20:02Dax Shepard?

  We're gonna feel foolish.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  You're gonna feel foolish cuz you're gonna be like, they're gonna be like, no, that was magic. Like, those tricks that David Blaine did aren't tricks. That's magic. And like, you spent so much time trying to figure out what it, what were the tricks, since there are no tricks?

• 1:20:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, as you know, I spent no time trying to figure it out cuz I know I can't figure it out. And I know it's not magic.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you're gonna find out it's magic.

• 1:20:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, we were playing, uh, thirty-two questions last night at dinner.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:20:30Dax Shepard?

  And Delta really stumbled upon one. Now, it was, I would argue that she was wrong on both fronts, but one of the questions was, is it man-made?

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:20:39Dax Shepard?

  Or is it from nature?

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Okay. I like that.

• 1:20:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and so it wasn't man-made. We figured that out early. And then later on the line, it's not from nature. And then so I kinda bailed out of the game. So I'm like, well, if it's not man-made and it's not from nature, then it can't be anything.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:20:56Dax Shepard?

  Right? There's no, there's nothing that's neither of those things.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Let me think. Not man-made, and not from nature. Did she mean like?

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  Cotton or something?

• 1:21:08Dax Shepard?

  Again, that's from nature, yeah.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  But like, I could see her think, like...

• 1:21:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, what it was, was weirdly, it was both nature and man-made.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  What was it?

• 1:21:18Dax Shepard?

  Which is maybe why she didn't think it was either. An eyelash.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:21:23Dax Shepard?

  So that's both nature and man-made. That feels like she stumbled upon a riddle.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Oh, that is a good riddle.

• 1:21:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  What is man-made and from nature?

• 1:21:36Dax Shepard?

  From nature.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  An eyelash.

• 1:21:37Dax Shepard?

  Although she said it was neither, so...

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, she meant both.

• 1:21:39Dax Shepard?

  But I can understand why she said neither. It was like, is it man-made? No. At that moment, she was like, no, no, the body made it, nature made it.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:47Dax Shepard?

  And then, is it from nature? It's like, no, it's human-made.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. Well, yeah, yeah, interesting. That's a fun game.

• 1:21:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it was. It's fun for a while. I bail out pretty early. My, uh, my attrition for 30 questions is, is brief.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:06Dax Shepard?

  Once we, like, I guess I just, I lose, I lose hope. Again, when I heard it's not man-made and it's not from nature, I'm like, well then, I can't continue to get, I'm doing, running a fool's errand now.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:22:18Dax Shepard?

  Because there's nothing that is not either one of those things.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 1:22:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Comment if you can think of something that's neither. That's a riddle. Well, it's not really a riddle, it's just a hard question. Would we say, like, thoughts?

• 1:22:32Dax Shepard?

  Are man-made?

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Well, I guess it depends on how we're, how we're saying man-made. If we're saying...

• 1:22:38Dax Shepard?

  They can't exist without a, a, a human.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:22:43Dax Shepard?

  Like, a wrench doesn't exist in nature.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. That's, but a man didn't constr- I guess, construct thoughts, but it's more abstract than that. They didn't invent thoughts.

• 1:22:54Dax Shepard?

  I think it's an example of it's both in that case, because it is the human, like, what's, is, is human thought man-made or nature-made?

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03Dax Shepard?

  And it's both.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Or neither.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  All right, I'll play with Delta.

• 1:23:11Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:23:17Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by HP. My mental to do list is already full. Uh, fix something around the house, refill prescriptions, remember to text someone back, keep track of a million little life things. The last thing I want on that list is, oh, don't forget printer ink.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  No, it's horrible.

• 1:23:33Dax Shepard?

  It's the bane of everyone's existence. What if you could just take that off your list for years?

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  The dream.

• 1:23:40Dax Shepard?

  That's the idea behind the HP Smart Tank printer from America's most trusted printer brand. Instead of those tiny cartridges that always seem to run out at the worst time, the HP Smart Tank uses a refillable ink tank and it comes with up to three years of ink included. It's built to be simple, the easiest tank printer you'll ever use with the best print quality, period. It's the last printer you'll ever need. I've definitely been in this situation where something that should take two minutes turns into a whole thing. Like, I need to print tickets and get out the door, but then I realize I'm out of ink and have to deal with it right then. With the HP Smart Tank, that's just not something you're dealing with all the time. It's one of those things that just works when you need it to. If you want to take one more thing off your mental to do list, search for HP Smart Tank.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Let's play.

• 1:24:33Dax Shepard?

  Play.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Thirty-two questions.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  Why don't you want to play?

• 1:24:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you have something?

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  No, you have to do it.

• 1:24:41Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:24:42Dax Shepard?

  Think of something.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Um, okay, I have it.

• 1:24:45Dax Shepard?

  Is it manmade?

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:46Dax Shepard?

  Would it be sold at Walmart?

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:48Dax Shepard?

  Is it smaller than a microwave?

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:51Dax Shepard?

  Is it for personal hygiene?

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:24:55Dax Shepard?

  Do you plug it in?

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:24:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay, it's smaller than a microwave, you don't plug it in, they sell it at Walmart.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Is this where you give up?

• 1:25:07Dax Shepard?

  We're getting close to where I would give up. Okay. Rob, do you have any questions? Is it food related?

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:15Dax Shepard?

  No. Okay, so we're not eating it, it's smaller than a microwave. Is it bigger than an iPhone?

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:22Dax Shepard?

  Wow, okay, great, we just really got, so it's kind of microscopic. But they sell it. They sell it, it's smaller than an iPhone, it's not personal hygiene and it's not electric. Is it a pen?

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:33Dax Shepard?

  Is it home improvement related?

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:36Dax Shepard?

  Would it be in your living room?

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Um, I would say no, like, it could be.

• 1:25:44Dax Shepard?

  Would it be in your kitchen?

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Um, not traditionally.

• 1:25:50Dax Shepard?

  Would it be in your bathroom?

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:54Dax Shepard?

  Would it be in your closet?

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  It could be in your closet.

• 1:25:57Dax Shepard?

  Could be in your closet. Your nightstand?

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  It, it, you, yeah. I'd probably put it in my nightstand.

• 1:26:05Dax Shepard?

  Wow, not electric. Well, not plugged in, is it battery powered?

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  Um, I think.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  It's not plugged in, and...

• 1:26:20Dax Shepard?

  But it's... But it's electronic. It's electronic? Is it electronic?

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Dax Shepard?

  I mean, is it... A vibrator?

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:26:27Dax Shepard?

  We were led there. Yeah. Nightstand.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it has a battery, smaller than an iPhone.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  These days, you do plug in your vibrators.

• 1:26:34Dax Shepard?

  For a period.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:36Dax Shepard?

  They're not tethered.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Right, correct.

• 1:26:38Dax Shepard?

  If you've got one that's tethered, I tip my hat to you. Like, you need that kind of voltage.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Dax Shepard?

  Um, a remote?

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Um, no, it's not a remote, but you're kind of in, they're in the right zone-ish.

• 1:26:54Dax Shepard?

  In the nightstand, not a remote, not a vibrator, is electric.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know if it's a, God.

• 1:27:03Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if it's electric.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Can be, it can be.

• 1:27:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. Now, I'm picturing a nightstand drawer.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  I mean, don't get so stuck in the nightstand. It just, it could be there.

• 1:27:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay. And you said it is or isn't electric?

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  It can be.

• 1:27:29Dax Shepard?

  Can be.

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  Batteries. Let's say it has batteries.

• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  Does it tell time?

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:27:35Dax Shepard?

  Is it a watch?

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Close. Very, very close. And some would say it's a kind of.

• 1:27:43Speaker 03

  An Apple Watch?

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:45Dax Shepard?

  Like, one of those fucking rings you wear, like a health monitoring?

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Think a little more archaic.

• 1:27:51Speaker 03

  A stopwatch?

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:52Speaker 03

  Stopwatch.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Good job.

• 1:27:55Dax Shepard?

  A stopwatch?

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Dax Shepard?

  Do you have a stopwatch?

• 1:27:59Speaker 03

  I have one in my nightstand.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  You see? Okay.

• 1:28:02Dax Shepard?

  You have a stopwatch?

• 1:28:03Speaker 03

  No, I don't.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  No, a stopwatch, um.

• 1:28:08Dax Shepard?

  What made you think of a stopwatch?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Uh, because there's a stopwatch we're, uh, using in, at the SAG Awards.

• 1:28:15Dax Shepard?

  Uh, top of mind, as you would say.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Top of mind.

• 1:28:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:28:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  I mean, I feel like I'd keep it in the nightstand, or I'd keep it, um, you know. Yeah, in the garage toolbox.

• 1:28:28Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna meditate on why the game for me gets frustrating.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:35Dax Shepard?

  Probably just because I don't know, and I don't like not knowing.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Sure, probably.

• 1:28:38Speaker 03

  Calvin likes it, and it's frustrating for me, too.

• 1:28:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's hard, right?

• 1:28:42Speaker 03

  Especially when you, I'm not sure he's always answering correctly.

• 1:28:45Dax Shepard?

  I have the same, and this is a male thing. I'm like suspicious that either they forgot, or...

• 1:28:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, like Vinny, we can't play with, because he's gonna...

• 1:28:53Dax Shepard?

  He'll just change it, right?

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:55Dax Shepard?

  That's the other thing. You catch these kids changing it. Like, if you guess it too quick, they don't like that.

• 1:28:59Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:29:00Dax Shepard?

  And it's, it's, what, what should happen is it should be written down on a piece of paper to keep everything above board.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, playing with kids is different than playing with adults. Like, I think if you play with kids, sure, it could be a little like, are they switching it? Are they, what are they up to?

• 1:29:14Dax Shepard?

  I mean, a lot of the time, like, this is a long game.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:18Dax Shepard?

  And I'm not even sure if they remember.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  Sure. But if you're playing with an adult, and you don't trust it.

• 1:29:25Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  That's on you.

• 1:29:28Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh, okay.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Adults know what they're doing.

• 1:29:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, whether or not they would change it is another thing. There is some legion of people that would change it.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Sure, but if they don't know the answers, like, that's like a little like, you know.

• 1:29:40Dax Shepard?

  It was very easy when they were tiny children.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:44Dax Shepard?

  Because you knew it was something they could see in the room.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:29:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  It's the glow.

• 1:29:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You would like, you could narrow it down pretty quick and go, is it a light switch? You know?

• 1:29:54Speaker 03

  It's because they look at it immediately, too, and then say they have it.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:29:57Dax Shepard?

  Every time you ask, is it brown? No?

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. So cute. See little caterpillars turning into butterflies.

• 1:30:07Dax Shepard?

  Mm, mm-hmm.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  All over the place. All right, should we do some facts?

• 1:30:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, let's do some facts.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:14Dax Shepard?

  I didn't bring it up in the interview, although I was tempted to.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:30:17Dax Shepard?

  You know Sasha holds a very dear.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:30:20Dax Shepard?

  It's a very important name to me.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  It is. That's who you had sex with. Oh, yeah, that's your first girlfriend.

• 1:30:27Dax Shepard?

  Let's definitely not say that to Sasha.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  Was that, that was your first girlfriend, or the first person you had a crush on?

• 1:30:33Dax Shepard?

  We're getting close. It's so relevant that my therapist remembered her name.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Is this because she had the sauna?

• 1:30:39Dax Shepard?

  No, that was, that was Randy, that was later. Okay, so elementary school could not, no, no girls like me. And I like so many girls. I was just telling Delta this the other day.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:48Dax Shepard?

  I was like, I like so many girls. None of them like me. I got to sixth grade with my new look that my brother gave me.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 1:30:53Dax Shepard?

  And the most popular girl in the whole junior high.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:56Dax Shepard?

  Sasha Crossitt.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:30:57Dax Shepard?

  Who was an eighth grader.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I knew she was an eighth grader.

• 1:30:59Dax Shepard?

  Came up and gave me a note in the hallway, in the sixth grade hall.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:02Dax Shepard?

  And I took it into my science class and I opened it up and it said, will you go with me?

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  So you dated?

• 1:31:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  But she wasn't your first girlfriend?

• 1:31:10Dax Shepard?

  I had a, I gotta be careful. This is, I'm gonna call her Frank.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Frank?

• 1:31:16Dax Shepard?

  I had, I had like a Valentine once. It was.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:31:21Dax Shepard?

  Let's just leave it at that.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  Wait, what happened?

• 1:31:23Dax Shepard?

  I had a, I don't know if you'd call her a girlfriend. I had a girl who I think.

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  Did you talk to her?

• 1:31:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, a little bit. And I think, I think on Valentine's Day, maybe I gave her something and maybe she gave, I wanna say she gave me some, um, some fudge or something, but I, I, yeah, I do remember her name. The reason it's so important is it is a transition from no girls like me to the most popular girl in the world like me.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:31:45Dax Shepard?

  This was a humongous, the biggest 180 of my life.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  That's huge. I also think I was kind of right in saying your first girlfriend, because I'm not counting this fudge girl.

• 1:31:54Dax Shepard?

  That's fine. That's fine. Yeah, we made out, we made out a ton. We would make out in front of the buses.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Dean, you, you didn't make out with Fudge?

• 1:32:03Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was your first girlfriend, so I'm right.

• 1:32:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  And I'm, I guess I'm impressed you didn't bring it up because.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  It's really important.

• 1:32:14Dax Shepard?

  We haven't interviewed a Sasha.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  No, we haven't.

• 1:32:16Dax Shepard?

  No. I have only met one Sasha since then.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  Sasha Baron Cohen.

• 1:32:20Dax Shepard?

  I guess two. Thank you for pointing that out. Uh, the other was, uh, was a Russian dude I knew.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:32:26Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Um, all right. Well, Godmother's Bookstore. You know, I was like, it's in Montecito. And then you guys were like, it's not in Montecito. We're from there.

• 1:32:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:32:38Dax Shepard?

  It's in Santa Barbara, right?

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Okay. Which I think Rob said Summerland, Summerland.

• 1:32:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  And everyone was like, yeah, that's not Montecito. Okay, which is fine. But then when I Googled, I said, where is Godmother's Bookstore? It said, Godmother's Bookstore is located 2280 Lilly Ave. I think Rob had said that because you said Lilly, that's her middle name. Um, Summerland, California. Founded by Jennifer Rudolph Walsh and Victoria Jackson in 2024. Oh, it's pretty new.

• 1:33:10Dax Shepard?

  I'll say.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  It is situated in a restored 1920s barn.

• 1:33:14Dax Shepard?

  Victoria Jackson, the performer from Saturday Night Live, Victoria Jackson?

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  Who's that?

• 1:33:18Dax Shepard?

  A beautiful blonde castmate in the late eighties.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. I see her SNL. I don't know.

• 1:33:25Speaker 03

  It's a different Victoria Jackson. It's a cosmetics mogul.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:33:29Dax Shepard?

  Cosmetics mogul. Okay, great.

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  With a renowned literary agent.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Oh, well, it's situated in a restored 1920s barn, often described as a cozy curated space near Montecito. It says that.

• 1:33:42Dax Shepard?

  Near Montecito, it does.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  Open daily.

• 1:33:44Dax Shepard?

  You're having a hard time with this one.

• 1:33:48Dax Shepard?

  You're having a real hard time. You're taking another swing at it.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  It said it, though. I didn't even say, I didn't say, I said, where is it? And it even included Montecito.

• 1:33:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Um, it's such a cute bookstore. Oh, my God, I could live there.

• 1:34:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, brand new, too.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  It's brand new, but it feels old.

• 1:34:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, timeless.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  I love it. Okay. Now. You know how I was on D?

• 1:34:13Dax Shepard?

  Hmm, pseudoephedrine.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Thank you, which is meth.

• 1:34:16Dax Shepard?

  Hmm, precursor.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  Does meth eat alcohol? Jess said he used to make it like a Pac-Man, and it was like the meth would eat the alcohol.

• 1:34:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Does it?

• 1:34:29Dax Shepard?

  It doesn't eat alcohol, but it gets you high, which offsets the inebriated effects of alcohol.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:37Dax Shepard?

  Like, cause alcohol's such a depressant. So if you imagine you took a Xanax, and then you took an Adderall, the Adderall would lift you out of the Xanax-y feeling.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:34:48Dax Shepard?

  And this is why people do speedballs. Coke and heroin, they're opposites. So you're kind of leveling off both sides, both downsides of the drug.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:34:58Dax Shepard?

  A heavy heroin does your nodding off. It's not ideal. Coke, you're too edgy, gnawing on your face, you know? So, I think that's what he means. Is it right-sized as inebriation? I don't think it metabolizes the alcohol any faster.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 1:35:12Dax Shepard?

  So cocaine does the same thing.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Got it, alright. Um, what was the most popular Flintstones vitamin flavor? Based on nostalgic discussions, the orange Flintstones vitamin was widely considered-

• 1:35:25Dax Shepard?

  That's what I think of.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Really? I'm, I was a red, I'm a red. She liked grape.

• 1:35:31Dax Shepard?

  I think they made orange really front and center in the ads.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  She should, it says purple, and in some cases, the iron fortified versions were less popular due to taste, with some users describing purple as yuck.

• 1:35:44Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:35:46Speaker 03

  Purple was my favorite.

• 1:35:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you and Sasha could have shared vitamins.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Oh, Valentines, that's cute. God, I loved them. Mm, mm, mm, says nothing about red. Um, I'm gonna give you credit for something.

• 1:36:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  So you've been saying for a while that Gabor Maté is a expert in ADHD. And every time you say it, I have to stop myself from saying, it's good. True, I don't remember that. I know he is like a trauma expert, but I don't remember ADHD. So I thought this was my in.

• 1:36:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, to correct me.

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  Yes. Gabor Maté is a Canadian physician and author. He has worked in family practices and specializes in childhood development and trauma, including long-term effects on physical and mental health such as autoimmune diseases, cancer, ADHD and addiction. So it's in there. It's in there.

• 1:36:39Dax Shepard?

  He had a circuitous path, if you remember when we interviewed him. Started working with the addicts in Skid Row there.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:46Dax Shepard?

  That wasn't his thing, but that became his thing.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:36:50Dax Shepard?

  Kind of like Sapolsky being a fucking primatologist as a hobby, you know?

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:54Dax Shepard?

  I think his addiction trauma stuffs more was his hobby.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  Right, but now he's really known for that.

• 1:36:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, he's written five books exploring topics such as ADHD, stress, developmental psychology and addiction. Now, if you guys missed that episode, you really should go back. That is such a great episode we did with him.

• 1:37:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I guess I'd like to say one thing too. Eric died, my friend.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I'm so sorry.

• 1:37:18Dax Shepard?

  He was such a beautiful dude and I think it would, uh,

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  Eric Dane.

• 1:37:21Dax Shepard?

  Eric Dane, yeah. I think, uh, it would be a lovely episode to listen to if you're curious about what kind of spirit Eric had.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, how are you doing?

• 1:37:32Dax Shepard?

  Um, well, I was talking to Lincoln about it.

• 1:37:36Dax Shepard?

  And I said, I, well, first I go straight to like gratitude, right? Like I had a lot of, I was, when you hear someone has ALS, my worst nightmare of that would be I have Locken syndrome.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:49Dax Shepard?

  And although he was very, very diminished physically, at the end, he couldn't, uh, move much of his body, if at all, um, he could talk. Um, so he avoided that phase. So I just immediately, in the same way when my dad died, I felt grateful. Like it didn't get. Gruesome.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:07Dax Shepard?

  So I was grateful for that. I know how many people were around. That made me grateful. Um, and then the sadness, I think for me takes a minute. And I was talking last night to Lincoln. I said, I don't know. Imagine you came home from school today and mom said, dad died today.

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  Don't.

• 1:38:23Dax Shepard?

  Could you comprehend that? And she's like, no. I'm like, yeah, wouldn't it take you a long time? You'd be like, no, that's not, that's not true. That's not right. And then months later, you're like, oh, wow, that really is true. That's, so I think I'm in that phase where it's like, is it? No.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:42Dax Shepard?

  I mean, intellectually, I know, but also.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:45Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  I think that's totally normal. I think that's how, yeah, how most people are processing it. It takes.

• 1:38:50Dax Shepard?

  I feel guilty about that. Like, I see people, well, in real life and in movies, they hear bad news and then they are immediately devastated. And I'm so protective, I think. I have so much like.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:02Dax Shepard?

  Well-worn neural pathways that I'm like, I have so much shit that just engages right away to prevent me from feeling terrible.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10Dax Shepard?

  And I think it takes a while for me to be willing to let that in.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, you shouldn't feel guilty about that. I think it's totally normal. And what's the problem with, there's nothing wrong with it.

• 1:39:24Dax Shepard?

  No, other than, I think.

• 1:39:28Dax Shepard?

  Well, my fear would be like, let's say I had been standing at the hospital and they pronounced my dad dead. And then all of his friends were there and they start crying and I don't. And now I appear to be sociop- you know, like a sociopath. That's like the fear, probably. Or.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  That's on them.

• 1:39:41Dax Shepard?

  I watch these fucking Datelines and the cops show up and I've witnessed something terrible and I'm kind of stable and they interpret that as guilt.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:49Dax Shepard?

  Like, these are the crazy thoughts I have about like.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you're supposed to act a cer- people expect you to act a certain way. And if you don't, they start filling in explanations as to why you're not reacting the way they do.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  I know. But that's on other people. That's on those people who are deciding that everyone should be reacting the way they react.

• 1:40:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  I think it takes a long time to process. All of these things.

• 1:40:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, and I'm sorry. It's really sad. Loss is hard.

• 1:40:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, when I saw him, uh, two weeks ago, uh, there was lots of laughing.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good. That's good.

• 1:40:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay. Sorry I interrupted that fact check for that, but I had forgotten that I wanted to say.

• 1:40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  Well, let's just end on that.

• 1:40:34Dax Shepard?

  Well, do you have another one?

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Well, it was just about PMDD.

• 1:40:37Dax Shepard?

  What's PMDD?

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  Really bad PMS.

• 1:40:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right. People, people with ADHD get PMS sometimes worse.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I have, I'm pretty sure I have PMDD.

• 1:40:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  And, um, so then I was thinking.

• 1:40:50Dax Shepard?

  PMDD?

• 1:40:54Dax Shepard?

  Are you, are you complaining things?

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  God.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  I do think I have it. And then I was like, I also have that rejection thing. Maybe I have ADHD. Yay!

• 1:41:11Dax Shepard?

  Boy, you've talked about a one eighty.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  No, I don't, I don't think I do, but, um, but it's all spectrum, you know?

• 1:41:21Dax Shepard?

  It is, it is.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  So that's.

• 1:41:24Dax Shepard?

  All right. Love you.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Love you.