Pod Insights The Psychology of your 20s 353. The psychology of perfectionism About this episode We’ve all heard someone say, “I’m such a perfectionist”, like it’s a badge of honour. But what does perfectionism really mean - and what’s hiding beneath it?
In today’s bonus episode, we unpack the psychology of perfectionism: the fear, the origins, and how to finally let go of “never good enough”.
We explore:
• The three types of perfectionism - self-oriented, other-oriented, and socially prescribed
• Why perfectionism often disguises itself as discipline
• How it’s linked to procrastination, burnout, and anxiety
• Where it develops - from conditional love, insecurity, and need for control
• Real-world costs on relationships, wellbeing and creativity
• Tools to reframe perfectionism
Listen now!
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3:21 Jemma Sbeg? Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.
3:41 Jemma Sbeg? Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it's so great to have you here. Back for another episode, we've got another bonus episode for you today. These shorter episodes are a little bit different from our usual deep dives. Think of them as like little psychology snack breaks where we unpack a singular term, singular theory or psychological concept that might be misunderstood or just thrown around pretty casually online. Terms that we might not be able to do like a full 50 minute episode on, but I still really want to cover. And today's topic.
4:24 Jemma Sbeg? It actually is a big one for a mini episode. We're gonna talk about perfectionism. You know what I realized the other day? I realized I have been doing this podcast for nearly five years. I have never just done a standalone episode purely on perfectionism, which is ironic because it's probably the thing that I like struggle with more than anything else. You have no idea how many podcast episodes I have recorded that will never see the light of day because I didn't think they were good enough. It dozens, probably more than that. And that's not even including the scripts. You know, how many ideas that I have that I've never acted on because
5:07 Jemma Sbeg? I'm too afraid to start. How many hours I spend thinking about how to be good at something and never actually doing anything about it. I probably don't need to tell you it's an exhausting feeling. Perfectionism is an exhausting state of mind and I want to talk about it today. Broadly speaking, perfectionism is basically characterized by the need for excessively high standards and the need for everything to be flawless. It's not a mental health condition, but it is kind of like a personality trait almost that a lot of us have. It is one of those traits that in all honesty, sounds kind of good at first.
5:49 Jemma Sbeg? When someone says, I'm a perfectionist, you know, we don't always think poorly of them. We think they're really good at things. They work really hard. They have high standards. They care deeply about what they do. I am sure so many people have been asked in job interviews, you know, what's your worst trait? And they've said perfectionist because they know it kind of makes them sound good. And that's why people are so often applauded for it. They're applauded for these excessive high standards, like it's a badge of honor. I will work harder than anyone because I am never able to prove I'm good enough to myself.
6:30 Jemma Sbeg? Underneath perfectionism, it's not about excellence. It's often about fear. It's about the underlying constant worry that you're going to fall short. That if you are not perfect, you are not enough. You have no value. Your life lacks meaning. People will never love you. It gets pretty psychologically heavy pretty quickly.
6:53 Jemma Sbeg? So many of us live with that kind of pressure, especially in our twenties and thirties, when everything feels like it's supposed to be figured out ahead of schedule. A 2022 study of young people aged sixteen to twenty-five actually found that eighty-five percent of participants identified as having perfectionist traits, particularly around academic achievement. But it can be so many things. It can be obsessing over the right career, how your body looks, how your relationship looks, your timeline. Basically, we've learnt to equate achievement with external appearances and external value and therefore self-worth.
7:39 Jemma Sbeg? But the reality is perfectionism doesn't drive success as much as it actually drives exhaustion. It is not the superpower that we all believe it is. Before we go further, we actually need to talk about the main types of perfectionism. There is not just one. It is a lot more complex than just wanting things to be good. There are actually three main strains or versions of this trait. The first one is self-orientated perfectionism. This is when you set your own impossible standards and it's about an internal drive to prove to yourself that, you know, you can control your life, that you have value,
8:23 Jemma Sbeg? that you can do good things. You're the one telling yourself that you can't make mistakes. You're the one who has this relentless internal critic that is never satisfied, no matter how well you do. Then there is the other oriented perfectionist. This one's a little bit different. It's when you hold the people around you to the same impossible standards you hold yourself to. Maybe this shows up in your relationships, friendships at work.
8:54 Jemma Sbeg? You want the world to be perfect. You want people to push themselves the way you push yourself. You expect others to meet your level of precision, care, and that can cause a lot of tension and disappointment when they don't. It also drives you to try and lead by example. So older siblings, sports captains, bosses, even parents get this feeling a lot. And finally, we have socially prescribed perfectionism. This is the one that's become increasingly massive in recent years. It is the feeling that everyone else is perfect, everyone else expects you to be perfect. It's the feeling that you're constantly being watched, judged, evaluated,
9:39 Jemma Sbeg? and so you have to keep up, you have to look the part. Socially prescribed perfectionism is deeply tied to our current culture, of course. Social media comparison, our online culture, this constant subtle pressure to perform, this sense of being visible, and that is why this form of perfectionism has grown so significantly over time. There was a two thousand and nineteen review published in the journal Psychological Bulletin, which looked at changes in levels of perfectionism between nineteen eighty-nine and two thousand and sixteen in the US, in the UK, and in Canada, using college students as the participant group.
10:23 Jemma Sbeg? What they found was that, yes, all types of perfectionism rose over time. Socially prescribed perfectionism, though, has risen so significantly, such that it is the most common form of perfectionism that we currently see. And the researchers noted this as a concern because what this indicates is that young people, people in their teens, in their twenties, are becoming increasingly more sensitive to external pressures, and they are finding it more difficult than previous generations to cope and to re-center themselves.
11:03 Jemma Sbeg? Here is the final twist of the knife here. Socially prescribed perfectionism is actually the most debilitating of all three types of perfectionism. And wider research consistently connects it to pretty major health concerns. Anxiety, depression, even eating disorders, of course, you know. If we're constantly measuring our worth through others, through people's expectations, through these metrics of success. Unless you are the very best in every domain and dimension of life, you are falling short. So you may as well be the worst.
11:44 Jemma Sbeg? Perfectionism is so harmful in that way because it deeply embodies black and white thinking. Either I'm number one or I'm nothing. Either I get everything right or I should give up. This raises the stakes so high that we actually can't operate under these conditions. And so you procrastinate, you avoid starting, you work yourself to the point of no return. You become more obsessive about what other people think until you can't achieve anything. Now here's where perfectionism gets really sneaky because in our culture, perfectionism is often disguised as discipline.
12:24 Jemma Sbeg? And so even when it feels bad, it looks good and we convince ourselves that it should feel good as well. We are hardworking, we are committed, we are detail orientated. These things are all admirable, except actually a lot of us, a lot of people who are born and raised perfectionists are starting to realize that like the dream we are sold by this trait is a complete lie. And actually, we will never, ever get to a point where we are actually satisfied with what we have. It just keeps us in the cycle. And now discipline, being hardworking, those are great traits. So how do we tell the difference between?
13:09 Jemma Sbeg? This insatiable need to be the best and to never make mistakes. And this desire to truly work hard for something and to really be passionate. We tell the difference through motivation. What is our motivation? Discipline is motivated by growth. We wanna do well because we care about whatever it is we're doing. And we like the challenge, whether we fail or not, we obviously wanna succeed. But the process is something that we are invigorated by, excited by, enjoying. Perfectionism is motivated by fear. We feel as though we have to do this, we have to do well. We have to push ourselves, otherwise we are worthless.
13:54 Jemma Sbeg? No one wakes up one day and just decides they're going to start being terrified of mistakes. Like most of our deep rooted psychological patterns, perfectionism begins early. It begins when we feel we needed to earn love, whether that was from family, from friends, from mentors, from whoever it was. A lot of us grow up learning, consciously or unconsciously, love or approval is earned. Maybe you earn it through good grades, good behavior, achievements, being the easy child. Over time, that creates this core belief, love is conditional.
14:36 Jemma Sbeg? You only deserve to enjoy life and you only deserve to enjoy love or to have it when you perform, when you get it right. So psychologists call this conditional regard. It is one of the strongest predictors of perfectionist tendencies later in life. Research published in the Journal of Personality found that when parents express affection or approval only when their children meet expectations and when they withdraw it when they fail. Those children are more likely to internalize a sense of conditional worth. They grow up feeling that mistake equals deep psychological rejection and that to be loved, they have to constantly strive and achieve.
15:20 Jemma Sbeg? Another study published in, I think it was two thousand and five, found that adolescents who were exposed to this kind of unconditional, sorry, conditional parenting, conditional love, showed higher levels of self-critical perfectionism and internalized pressure even years down the line. This part of them became fundamental to how they saw themselves and how they operated and how they showed up years and years into the future. Another element of this is also the role of insecurity and self-worth. It's not just about love, it's about how you see yourself as valuable.
15:59 Jemma Sbeg? If at your core, you don't feel inherently worthy or good or seen, if you've internalized the belief that I'm only good when I achieve or I have output, perfectionism is a way to compensate for what you feel like you're lacking. I relate to this deeply. I didn't fit in growing up, I didn't really have good friends, I wasn't hot, I wasn't popular, I really wasn't anything special, but I could work hard and I could get good grades. And so that pursuit, this, this, I knew this about myself, I knew I could push myself, that became my identity and it became a way to feel good about myself in an environment
16:43 Jemma Sbeg? where I previously didn't and where I didn't have a role and where I didn't belong. And it was deeply protective of my ego. This is something that humanistic psychologists like Carl Rogers have written about for decades. When somebody's self-worth is based on external things, the authentic self gets replaced with this ideal self. That's the version of us that we're always striving, chasing, wanting to be, but we never quite feel like we will get there. It's a big fat lie, right? We have this idea that if we just extend, push, work, do more, we will get to a place of satisfaction.
17:27 Jemma Sbeg? That is a lie, it is a mental Ponzi scheme that tells you to invest more, that tells you just to get to the next target and you'll finally feel good, but never rewards you. The final reason we develop perfectionism is actually really about control. I don't feel like a lot of people talk about it from this angle, but we're going to consider this deeply in just a second after this short break. Stay with us.
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21:51 Jemma Sbeg? Perfectionism can sometimes develop as a way not just to feel loved, not just to feel worthy, but to manage our anxiety or the unpredictability of life. Because it gives this mental impression that if we just work hard enough, if we just check over things a million times, if we rehearse everything, have a million to do lists, we can control whatever life throws at us. Perfectionism is actually really deeply aligned with an intolerance for uncertainty. We've spoken about this before, but our intolerance for uncertainty is this extra feeling of distress that we face when we understand that something is unpredictable or unknown.
22:35 Jemma Sbeg? Some of us are more intolerant than others. Some of us face increasing or more anxiety compared to others. If you've learnt that unpredictable situations often lead to pain like conflict, rejection, criticism, that you previously were not able to cope with, or didn't feel supported through, or were really overwhelmed by, you might cope by trying to eliminate uncertainty altogether through the process of perfectionist control. It's a lie. Again, this whole feeling is just like trying to sell you, it's trying to sell you this idealistic view of the world that the people who work hard are the ones who get love and the ones who get achievement and the ones who can control the world.
23:20 Jemma Sbeg? It's trying to basically convince us that there is something within us that can determine all of these outcomes or all of these truths that we want to know about ourselves. We want to know that we have value, we want to know that we're loved, we want to know that we're going to be okay. And in our attempts to gain certainty on those things, perfectionism becomes the way through which we think we enact it and through which we gain it. All of this, it's just a coping mechanism. One that looks bloody fantastic from the outside. I'm sure if you're listening to this episode, you got great grades in school. I'm sure you had a job growing up, you had hobbies, extracurriculars, you made your parents proud, you had high standards, you went to a good school,
24:03 Jemma Sbeg? you always had some kind of side hustle. But can I ask you a question right now? Are you actually happy? Genuinely, if I took all of that away, would you know what you actually like doing?
24:19 Jemma Sbeg? Would you know who you actually are? Would you be doing half of what you're doing now? Without external approval? How many things do you do not because you have ever enjoyed them? But because you think that you have to?
24:34 Jemma Sbeg? That is the paradox of perfectionism. Often, it begins as a way to feel in control, to feel loved and worthy, and it ends up controlling you with golden handcuffs. It is your best friend because you know it gives you outcomes, it gives you output. You know you can rely on it. It gets stuff done. It's also your worst enemy. So how do we loosen the grip of perfectionism? When it has been a part of us for so long that it almost feels like a second skin? Firstly, I want you to imagine the life you really, really want. Vividly imagine it, your house, your day to day life, what you're wearing, who your friends are, what you have for dinner, what your house looks like.
25:19 Jemma Sbeg? Now seriously, ask yourself, will being a perfectionist allow me to be that person? And even if it does, will it allow me to enjoy even my dream life? Is there a future where my perfectionism will actually let me be satisfied? The best way I found to start tackling my perfectionism in the now is to use future mindedness or what psychology calls perspection to kind of observe how perfectionism will continue to hurt me into the future. I really find that the only way I can stop myself from doing it is to focus on all the downsides that I know will only increase.
26:04 Jemma Sbeg? Like perfectionism is like the cell count of a virus. Like it will continue to infiltrate everything in my life if I don't challenge it. If I don't challenge this thought that I need to be the best, this needs to be perfect. That will slowly determine my entire outlook on life and how I see myself. Even like projecting myself onto my deathbed, I know it feels morbid, gives me some perspective. Is this mindset actually gonna help me? What am I gonna lose out on by continuing to focus on these things that don't actually matter? Another thing that has helped me is, more than anything else, having
26:47 Jemma Sbeg? a work-free, project-free, appearance-free, online-free day every now and again. I try and do it once a fortnight. You know, I work in an industry that makes it so easy to constantly be quantifying how good my work is and how well I'm doing in comparison to others and where I stand. You know, podcasts literally have a daily ranking that is updated. Like, as a perfectionist, that is hell. That is nightmare fuel. Realizing that numbers, all those things, like, don't actually quantify real life and don't actually determine how I feel is helpful.
27:29 Jemma Sbeg? And having days where I can just disconnect from all of that and do things my human brain and soul wants most of all, like hiking, swimming, eating with friends, dilly-dallying, like that makes me feel less like a machine and more like somebody who is here to feel and experience rather than to get results. That will fade over time anyways. That will not last much longer past the time I'm dead. Like, it really does help me to get morbid. It also helps remind me these days off that working isn't a hobby. Constantly working on myself, on a project, on my job isn't a good enough way to spend all my time.
28:13 Jemma Sbeg? Sure, I like it, I enjoy it, I feel a deep sense of like intensity to do it more. Is it actually giving me what I'm giving it? No. You know, no, it's not. Work is not a hobby. I need something more. If I really wanna be sneaky, and to be honest, I don't know if this is something a therapist would recommend or not, take it with a grain of salt, but I try on my days off to be the best at relaxing. I try to be as perfect as possible at taking time off. I try to do it in the best possible way, to be number one at enjoying life.
28:53 Jemma Sbeg? Not, you know, number one at not grading myself based on others, which is ironic, but I'm like, if I'm gonna do this, if I'm gonna take time off, if I'm gonna take a break from my perfectionism, I better do it really, really well. And you know what? It probably still keeps the underlying impulse alive, but I like to see it as using it for good and using it to really like force myself to not half-ass my time off. A tip I also picked up from the book, The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, which honestly, if you're resonating with anything I've, I'm saying, go and pick up a copy of that book, was also to swap the idea of perfect to better and to follow the one percent rule.
29:34 Jemma Sbeg? Not one hundred percent better all at once, one percent better at a time. And don't ignore that rule. Apply it to your life. Apply it to your wins when you notice you've improved slightly on something you did before. Notice it, celebrate it. When you've worked hard, take a break. Let things take their time rather than rushing them. Do it at the one percent level. Because you won't burn out. You will have time for yourself. You'll be able to enjoy the process. And you will be able to like, let the universe cook, let life cook you up something great. Let things take the time they need to mature and to get better and to see progress.
30:15 Jemma Sbeg? Finally, redefine success using your values rather than somebody else's standards. Perfectionism makes you chase external metrics, grades, numbers, praise, outcomes, medals, I don't know what else, like all those kinds of things that wanna put progress into a box that is numerical or hierarchical. But those hierarchies, those number places, those quantifiable metrics are endless and they never lead to peace. So instead, ask yourself, what matters most to me more than anything? Now ask the question again, but with a slightly different tweak. What would matter most to me if no one was watching?
31:01 Jemma Sbeg? How do I chase more of that? Another question is, how do I actually want to feel every day? And in what ways would that feeling already be available to me? If I spent less time trying to be perfect? And finally, does perfectionism help me or harm me in my pursuit of my dream life? When you align your efforts with values instead of with perfection, with this crutch, the focus shifts from, did I do this flawlessly to, did I do this in a meaningful way? Did I do this in a way that was aligned with what I actually desire? And I think that's a much kinder, more sustainable form of striving.
31:46 Jemma Sbeg? Ultimately, and this is where I really want to finish today's little bonus episode. Reframing perfectionism isn't about lowering your standards. It's not about quitting. You have proven to yourself time and time again, if you wanted to work yourself to the bone, you can do it. That's, there's no doubt about that. It's not that you can't do it. It's whether you should. It's whether this is actually making you happy. And it's learning to detach from how you think people will see you when you're the one who has to feel your life. How people see your life matters so much less than what it's going to feel for you to be in.
32:28 Jemma Sbeg? And it's learning to really include things like joy, curiosity, rest, connection, in your definition of success, because they are some of the best things about life. And you will miss out on them if you are in this constant relentless pursuit of, of goals that are sometimes completely arbitrary. You know, again, I just want to say it one more time. I know you can work hard. Everybody around you knows you can work hard. You know it as well. But.
33:05 Jemma Sbeg? Is it going to make you happy? Is this coping mechanism actually helping your life get better? Or is it leading you to chase things that aren't actually fulfilling? And that you know, deep down, leave you feeling quite empty? So, thank you for listening to my musings on perfectionism. I hope it's just given you something to think about. If you have made it this far, I want you to leave a little book emoji down below. I feel like that ties in with how perfectionism really shows up in academia and in our studies and in work. Thank you for being a loyal listener. Thank you for letting me have your attention for these 26 minutes.
33:50 Jemma Sbeg? I really appreciate it. Make sure as well that you are following us on Instagram at that psychology podcast and that you are following along or subscribed. Wherever you are listening to this episode, I would also really appreciate if you could give us a five star review, especially if you are listening on Apple. Reviews really help the show grow and reach new people, which is really important to me. I also want to thank our researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions to this episode. Until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself and we will talk very, very soon.
34:28 Jemma Sbeg? I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year and something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.
35:13 Jemma Sbeg? This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know. They are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favourite gym clothing at gymshark.com.
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