125. Question Time: Murdoch mayhem, the politics of nepotism, and Alastair Campbell MP?

Will Alastair ever stand as an MP? What's going on with Rupert Murdoch at Fox News? How prevalent is nepotism in UK politics? Rory and Alastair answer all these questions and more on this episode of TRIP Question Time. Sign up to the free TRIP weekly newsletter: bit.ly/3zhYAIl TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creve and of course the thing flashed up saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN and it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

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• 1:33Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me Rory Stewart.

• 1:36Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Alastair Campbell. And Rory, we should reward somebody by the name of Simon Beal because he has been putting this question in week after week after week after week. And he hasn't given up. And in my new book, which I can now show you, Roy, there is my new book. And I've invented a word which is perseverance. Perseverance is the combination of perseverance and resilience. So this guy, Simon, has had the setback of not having his question answered. But he's persevered and therefore he's a very perseverant character. And his question is quite a tough one. What role does nepotism play in public life? Have you ever been the beneficiary of it and or provided it?

• 2:21Rory Stewart?

  Ah, well, I think certainly in political life, there's much less, I think, than people outside think. There are, I mean, nepotism, of course, as everyone knows, is about favoring your own family, generally your own kids. And what actually has changed in British politics is that it was a very, very strong factor. Obviously, in the 19th century, people like Winston Churchill, you know, his father had been Chancellor of the Exchequer. His grandfather had been in Parliament, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Nowadays, there are MPs who have parents in Parliament on both sides of the House, or Labour MPs who have. In fact, it's a Labour MP who's, both whose parents were in the House and who I think is married to a member of Parliament.

• 3:03Alastair Campbell?

  Ah, John Cryer.

• 3:04Rory Stewart?

  Son of Anne Cryer and Bob Cryer, both former Labour MPs. And of course, he's married to Ellie Reeves, who's the Labour MP for Lewisham West. And whose sister is Rachel Reeves, the current Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer. How about that? Anyway, on the Conservative side, the people who had parents who were in the House of Commons were people like Nicholas Soames, who of course was Churchill's grandson, Dominic Greve.

• 3:25Alastair Campbell?

  Andrew Mitchell.

• 3:26Rory Stewart?

  Richard Benyon, Andrew Mitchell, yeah. And many of these people actually were more on the left of the party. They were in something called the One Nation Dining Club with me. And in a sense, it seemed that the fact that they were children of MPs gave them a sort of, I think, a slightly more left of centre type of conservatism, less strident. I mean, Dominic Raab, who we've been talking about a great deal, his dad, Peter, came from the Czech Republic at the age of six on a kinder transport. Became a food manager at M and S, died when Dom was 12. So definitely, you know, an example of a very different route, which is true of many, many MPs.

• 4:01Alastair Campbell?

  I guess, I guess, I guess what Simon means by the question in relation to nepotism, where maybe it is more apparent is, is that you do see an awful lot of MPs who employ members of their family. Now, I've, I've spoken to MPs whose wives run their constituency office and they say, actually, because they, it means that they don't have to pay them and they just kind of run it and it's almost like it's part of the marriage. But, and then, and you know, one of my, one of my sons, Callum, he, he worked for the Labour Party for a while. And I actually think in a, in a weird sort of way, it, it can be worse for the, for the, for the child of the person who's well known. I think Callum used to get really fed up of people saying, oh, that's Alastair Campbell's son. I think sometimes

• 4:43Alastair Campbell?

  it can be harder if you're coming from what is perceived as nepotism. My daughter Grace, who is, you know, is a comedian, she does a whole story about how, which is a true story, by the way. She says that once before a Manchester United match, she was, she was in the tunnel as the players were coming out. She says, because that's how nepotism works. So you, you can, I think, I think that's the only place where I have, it's actually been the fact that I can get invited to stuff. And because I'm feeling guilty about not being there when I should be, I, I will phone the kids and say, if I get, you know, I can get your tickets for this and get your tickets for that. What do you think? I guess that's the sort of nepotism maybe I indulged in from time to time.

• 5:21Rory Stewart?

  Good. John, having recently read Prelude to Power and enjoyed it very much, by the way, I was struck by Alistair's wavering over whether to leave mainstream journalism and take the job with the Labour Party. It made me wonder if either Rory or Alistair have ever regretted a career move.

• 5:37Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I regretted, or I regretted the move when, when I was a journalist, when I left the Daily Mirror to go and work for Eddie Shars Today newspaper, because I ended up having a nervous breakdown. Now, I don't actually regret the overall experience, but I, I made, I definitely made the wrong decision in doing that. And I do, I do regret. I regret not having stood as an MP myself. I do regret that. And I can explain why at every stage of the last twenty odd years or thirty odd years, whatever it is, I've not done it. And I can explain why I don't want to do it now. But that is something that sort of nags away at me. What about you?

• 6:14Rory Stewart?

  Alsa, I want to strongly encourage you to run to be an MP in the next election. It's not far away. It's a good opportunity. Anyway, me, my biggest regret is I was running a charity in Afghanistan called Turquoise Mountain. We were restoring the centre of the old city of Kabul, which is back in 2008. And I was absolutely loving it, working with a few hundred people, bringing in water supplies, sanitation, we built a clinic. And I built the whole thing from scratch. I'd started with one employee who was my driver, who I called my logistics manager. And we were really making a daily difference out on the ground in Kabul, living there for two, three years. And I then was approached by Harvard University to take a chair, professorial chair at Harvard University, and be the director

• 6:56Rory Stewart?

  of a centre. And I was flattered into doing it. It just appealed to my ego.

• 7:01Alastair Campbell?

  That's what happened with me. That's exactly what happened with me. I was flattered into believing that I had it in me to be the youngest news editor in Fleet Street. I was going to be a news editor at twenty eight, and it was a stupid decision.

• 7:13Rory Stewart?

  That's exactly right of me. So I thought, this is amazing. And in my case, I was older than that, I guess I was in my mid thirties, but full Harvard professor in my mid thirties. And actually, it didn't suit me at all. I would have been, I much, much more enjoyed managing two, three hundred people on the ground in Afghanistan than I did trying to run an academic centre.

• 7:32Alastair Campbell?

  Jean Guy Cote, and he is, I'm guessing from that name, French Canadian, because his question is, and he posted an opinion poll suggesting that the Canadians seem reluctant to have Charles as king. And he says, do you think we could see a surge of republicanism in the Commonwealth in the next few years? So he posted a poll which showed a minority in favour of continuing with the monarchy.

• 7:56Rory Stewart?

  I think it's always a live issue. I think republicanism of all sorts has been a live political issue for many, many years. And in some ways, Britain is unusual, still having a monarchy, when most countries around the world lost them. There was that famous joke of the king of Egypt, that in the end, there were going to be only five kings left. The king of hearts, the king of clubs, the king of diamonds, the king of spades, and the king of England.

• 8:22Rory Stewart?

  But I think, and I would say this, but I do think that King Charles has approached the job very well. I think Prince William has a good reputation and I think it's the British monarchy is in quite a strong position. I don't think there's anything at the moment which is, makes me think that people are liable to push. But there are Commonwealth countries, of course. I mean, King Charles, when he was Prince Wales, one of the things he had to do last year, I think, was to go out to the Caribbean to visit a country that had decided they didn't want the royal family anymore. I think he dealt with it very, very well. I know, I don't think there's any sort of resentment there. I think he gave a good

• 9:03Rory Stewart?

  speech and engaged well and left with very warm feelings. But one thing that's changed, I mean, the Queen, remember, when she took over, went on a, I think, seven month tour around all these different places. And I think increasingly that the royal family are, maybe spend less time or have, have maybe spent less time in other places. And I think that the pressures of distance are significant.

• 9:27Alastair Campbell?

  I've just, I've just found the poll while you were talking and it's 60% say they don't want Charles as king.

• 9:33Rory Stewart?

  Right.

• 9:33Alastair Campbell?

  It's quite high, quite high.

• 9:34Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. Well, but we've, but interestingly, these things go up and down, don't they? There was, there was a moment in Australia, 20, 30 years ago, where people really thought that that was going to be the case. And then that seems to turn around again.

• 9:45Alastair Campbell?

  And I do think, even Fiona, who is, you know, not exactly, she's, she's not on exactly the same page as you when it comes to monarchy, Rory. But she did say the other day, she's, God, could you imagine if somebody like Boris Johnson became an elected president?

• 10:01Rory Stewart?

  That's, I think that's a good, good line. I think it's, it's, I think that's right. I think you would hope that Tony Blair would become the elected president, but it could be Boris Johnson, at which point you do worry a bit. Right. Next question from Discord. So to encourage people to go on Discord. Discord is our stream where debate's happening. And it's from somebody who calls themselves Nossa PhD. Honestly, I can't believe how many times the question of what happened, why isn't the US the harbinger of democracy anymore, can be asked on this podcast. And at no point do people wonder, oh, wait, maybe it never was. Maybe the country didn't magically go from sponsoring coup after coup in the 60s, 70s and 80s to magically being the world force for democracy in the 90s. What do you make of that?

• 10:44Alastair Campbell?

  I think that is a PhD. Not a PhD, I think there's a great PhD question there. No, there's a very, very fair point in that, partly because American, less so under Trump, but most American presidents, they talk so much about America as the leader of the free world, as the great democratic force. But actually, there is, there is something in that about the, about the, you know, we've talked about this a lot. We talked about it with Hillary Clinton. There's a mixed picture about America's, America's role in the world.

• 11:15Rory Stewart?

  Good. And I'll say this is another chance to plug my favorite book, Norman Mailer's Harlot's Ghost, which is all about the CIA sponsoring these coups at exactly that period. And actually, it's a very, essentially making this point, which not a PhD is making, which is, in a sense, the dark troubling heart of American democracy, is the weird connection between these, these authoritarian special operations and its claim to be democracy. And here's a question for you, Veron. Is Rupert Murdoch losing it, paying out $787.5 million and firing Tucker Carlson, the jewel in the Fox News crown?

• 11:53Alastair Campbell?

  Is he losing it? Well, he's into his 90s. He's getting on for sure. The Fox News settlement was, must have been a very, very, very difficult moment for him, but thoroughly deserved because Fox News entire business model is founded on the exploitation of the three things that we talk about the whole time, populism, polarization, and post-truth. Tucker Carlson is, you know, the questioner calls him the jewel in the Fox News crown. Tucker Carlson is the, is an absolute populist, polarizing, post-truth. And the reason why this became such a, their settlement with the people who'd done the

• 12:34Rory Stewart?

  Dominion voting machines.

• 12:35Alastair Campbell?

  Dominion voting machines, yeah. The reason that's been so damaging is because the, the reality was exposed between what they were saying on air, presenting themselves as arbiters of, you know, as they call it, fair and balanced news bullshit, and at the same time, what they were privately thinking, which is, you know, this is absolute nonsense. Now, Tucker Carlson became the, the guy who was kind of leading that on air, as it were, but he wasn't the only one. And the truth is, within that organization, they all knew that that's the game. By the way, it was the game from the word go. And it's why I think although GB News is, is seen as a bit of a joke by a lot of people, it's why we have to be very, very careful.

• 13:15Alastair Campbell?

  Once you establish that it's normal for a country's main television channel, Fox News, which is watched more now than CNN, when it's accepted that lying and to feed your base to be to be to be nice to your viewers, to make them hear what they want to hear, that is very, very dangerous. And I think we've got to be very, very careful. We don't get the same thing here.

• 13:39Rory Stewart?

  You've interviewed Brian Cox on our leading podcast, and I believe that in the settlement case with Jerry Hall, there was a clause put in saying that she couldn't give any information to the producers of Succession. And one of the interesting things also, I thought we were talking about earlier about speaking trees to power. And I thought an interesting revelation on Murdoch came out of the end of the trial. So at the end of the trial, the general counsel of Fox, which, you know, the senior lawyer, said to Murdoch that he'd done well. He said, I'm just going to say it. They didn't lay a finger on you. And Murdoch has the self-knowledge to disagree. And he pointed a finger at the

• 14:21Rory Stewart?

  lawyer who'd questioned him for Dominion. And he said, I think he would strongly disagree with that. And Nelson, who was the man who was doing the questioning, said, indeed, I do. And I thought that was interesting with all his weaknesses in his 90s, he's not totally blown up with his own legend. If if one of his staff is flattering him when he knows he's screwed up, he can still call it out in public.

• 14:44Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I look, I did, I don't know, I don't like doing those interviews. You know, you do, I'm sure you get asked to do lots as well, where you do interviews for broadcasters who are preparing obituaries. I don't like doing them. But I did do one the other day for Murdoch. And they're asking everybody at the end, Murdoch forced for good or forced for bad over his lifetime. And I'm afraid I was very much forced for bad. I think ultimately Murdoch's Uh, impact upon politics and media around the world. There were, there have been amazing things that he's done. There's no doubt about that. But I think particularly the, the impact of Fox News on America and some of his journalistic habits here ultimately have been a force for bad. Yeah. We got a very nice message from a guy called Theo Davis Lewis, who amongst

• 15:29Alastair Campbell?

  other things, he's, he's politically active down in Wales, but he, he also writes for The Spectator. And he has, he wants us to talk about something which has also been raised by, I'm going to have to say this in Welsh, because the name of the person is clearly something in Welsh, but I don't know what it means. It's Farch Sinas. I hope that is sort of vaguely. Anyway, the question is this, there is so much huffing and puffing about the official adoption of the native Banau, Banau Brecheniog. Do you know about this one, Rory? You can still call them the Brecon Beacons. It's okay. Very little coverage of the main project for dramatic change in policy to combat climate change and tourist pollution damage. That should be the story. And Theo Davis Lewis has written a piece

• 16:10Alastair Campbell?

  in The Spectator about this. So basically, the, the Brecon Beacons have been renamed in Welsh. Okay. So the official name is, now, the truth is, according to Theo Davis Lewis, it always was. And yet it's become the latest sort of woke thing. Nigel Farage is saying, this is absolutely awful. And what on earth are we doing? We can't call them the Brecon Beacons anymore. You can call them the Brecon Beacons, but it is actually part of Wales. And they are, they are calling it this because then they're making it part of a bigger, a bigger thing about tourist pollution damage. And I think it's a very, very sensible thing to do. And what I think this is actually is a bit of a kind of anti Welshness and, and also anti Welsh language. We talked about the language recently. Welsh

• 16:52Alastair Campbell?

  is one of the top 50 most influential languages in the world, according to the latest edition, the World Language Barometer. So let's hear it for the Welsh language, Rory.

• 17:00Rory Stewart?

  Very good, very good. That, that, that maybe was not your best question ever, given that you began answering it from the moment you got to the end of it, having introduced it as a question to me. But we'll move on, move on to a next question.

• 17:11Alastair Campbell?

  You can, you can still answer it. You can still answer it.

• 17:13Rory Stewart?

  I think, I think you did a good job. You did a good job there. Um, reaction to Biden visit. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as to the coverage afforded by the British press with respect to the presidential visit to Ireland, North and South. Some has been borderline racist, perpetuating 19th century tropes and possibly revealing more about the individual author's worldview, as much as providing any insightful commentary. Is this representative of the state of Anglo-Irish and Anglo-American relations?

• 17:38Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I, we, we touched on this when we were in Belfast. I think there is an element of, I think it's more about actually us feeling very unsure in our own identity at a time when the Irish actually feel pretty confident, not least because they're projecting 6% growth and we're sort of limping on along with Russia. So I thought the coverage, some of the coverage in the UK media of Biden's visit was utterly ridiculous. I really do. I know you think he was a bit rude to the UK, but I just think he's, he was showing, wearing his Irishness on his sleeve. He was welcomed there perhaps more than he had been in Belfast. And I just think the sort of, you know, the Andrew Nils and the GBB's people just threw their toys out of the pram.

• 18:21Rory Stewart?

  I was talking to somebody in Belfast while we were there, just when I was out in the streets, and he felt, for what it's worth, a real sense of hurt that Biden hadn't engaged more. He very much felt that the US had been absolutely vital to the Good Friday Agreement, as you very much say, very much acknowledge. And he was very sad that he felt that Biden wasn't leaning in harder, spending more time in Northern Ireland, getting directly involved. And I think that, that, that was striking, that he seems to have sort of, instead of doing what I think would have been more Clinton style, which is to roll his sleeves up and say, okay, I'll get involved. He seemed to

• 19:05Rory Stewart?

  be more saying, sort yourselves out, or if you don't, I'm not going to make a proper visit.

• 19:08Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think he'd, I think he'd done, he would argue, I think, that he'd done the sleeves rolling in Washington when he met the parties and tried at the Number 10's behest to try and get them over the line because he's told that was, that's what it required. And then when that

• 19:24Rory Stewart?

  Why not spend a day or two using his immense political capital and influence on the ground in Belfast at that critical time?

• 19:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I don't know the answer to that. But there was all this talk about there was going to be a state dinner and King Charles was going to go and all that kind of stuff. I don't know is the answer. But he was always going to do that trip to Ireland. And I think that, you know, I, he, look, the truth is, he's the president of America. He probably gets asked to go to every country in the world every day of the week. He has to make judgments about how he uses time. The other thing, the optics, I think, they may have thought that the optics of him being around, around the Good Friday Agreement at a time when Bill Clinton was there, Hillary Clinton was there, George Mitchell was there. There is an argument that it would look like he was trying to insert himself into something that was actually about something else. I don't know. Here's a good one, Rory, for you. You can definitely answer this one. I will just be quiet.

• 20:15Alastair Campbell?

  Gibson Fender, is Tony Blair still the best politician in the UK? Unpopular opinion for sure, but who, since he left, has been better? Come on.

• 20:24Rory Stewart?

  I remain extremely grumpy, like many of us, about the Iraq War and think that revealed something troubling about him. At the same time, obviously, spending more time with you and seeing a bit of him, I have been very, very struck by his energy, his intelligence, his skill at communication, his commitment. So I think you mount a very, very powerful defence. It's the question, who's the best politician or the best ex-prime minister?

• 20:53Alastair Campbell?

  Well, the question is, who, since he left, has been better?

• 20:56Rory Stewart?

  It's very difficult to compare people who've not been prime ministers to people who've been prime ministers, haven't they?

• 21:02Alastair Campbell?

  But would you say any of the prime ministers have been better?

• 21:04Rory Stewart?

  No, I'm probably not as an effective prime minister, although I would say that I have a much profounder affection for Theresa May.

• 21:11Alastair Campbell?

  I know you do.

• 21:12Rory Stewart?

  I like her very much as a person. I think she's a wonderful kind of, I love her values.

• 21:17Alastair Campbell?

  I will say as well, for Theresa May, when you couldn't stay to do Mary McAleese, but Mary McAleese was very, very nice about Theresa May.

• 21:24Rory Stewart?

  That was lots of questions asked, including some quite serious ones we're going to get to, so let's just take a quick break.

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• 23:51Rory Stewart?

  Welcome back to the Rest is Politics question time with me, Rory Stewart.

• 23:55Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Alice Campbell. Charlie O'Neill.

• 23:58Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 23:59Alastair Campbell?

  As you've both done many, many TV and radio interviews over your careers, what would you say are your favourite and least favourite TV or radio shows to go on and why?

• 24:10Rory Stewart?

  Well, I don't particularly like the comedy shows. So I did things like Have I Got News For You, but I feel a bit weird as a politician going on to what's fundamentally a comedy show.

• 24:22Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I played my bagpipes on that one.

• 24:24Rory Stewart?

  Well, there we are. See, it's a good, good decision, good decision, always good decision. If only I'd stuck to the piping a bit more and been a bit more serious, I would have been much more successful. I think I always enjoy the Today Programme, love doing the Today Programme, happy doing Newsnight, love Hard Talk. Question Time I quite enjoy. How about you?

• 24:43Alastair Campbell?

  I like the ones that, I really, really like the Late Late Show in Dublin. Always enjoyed doing that. I, I do like the longer form ones. I know what you mean about the comedy of things, but I like the ones where you can kind of not be. The trouble with Newsnight and the Today Programme, those programmes, I think people just go into a mode. The interviewers are in a mode, the interviewees are in a mode. I do remember when my first book came out, and of course I'd had a lot of trouble with the Today Programme over the whole Andrew Gilligan that led to the Hutton Inquiry, David Kelly's death, et cetera. So when my first volume of Diaries came out, I was like the eight, 10 interviewee on the Today Programme with John Humphries.

• 25:27Alastair Campbell?

  And I think I'm right in saying it's the only time they ever went through the news and the sport. They just kept going. I think John Humphries was determined just to keep going until I either lamped him or I lost my rag or whatever. So I like it when you do have a bit of, that's why I enjoy this podcast. I like it when you've got a little bit of time to explain, to explore. But I think the Late Late Show is, I would put down as one of my favourites. Talking of bagpipes, talking of bagpipes Rory, Aileen Pearce, where have you most enjoyed playing the pipes? Either because of the location, the audience or the occasion. And Aileen says you'll find that the correct answer is Hillsborough Castle Throne Room. This was where I played the lament that I wrote for the departed.

• 26:11Rory Stewart?

  Mo Mollum and others.

• 26:11Alastair Campbell?

  Peacemakers, for Mo Mollum and David Tremble, et cetera. I played it to, there was, after you left on the Thursday, there was a really nice event at Hillsborough Castle. Um. Which is the official residence of the king, I guess, in Northern Ireland. And it was for schoolchildren from across the divide, as it were, from all over Northern Ireland. And I and I played it there. And it actually, for me, is often about the acoustics. The acoustics in the hall in Belfast were great. The acoustics in Hillsborough Castle were great. Um. I go every year to play the backpipes at Charles Kennedy's grave. Um. And I do that partly out of friendship, but also, to be honest, because it's one of the most beautiful burial grounds in the world. And uh I maybe this is my depressive character, but I do have a bit of a, I do love a lament. I love a good lament.

• 26:56Alastair Campbell?

  Where have you most enjoyed playing the pipes?

• 26:58Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think the worst, the worst place I played the pipes was in Hong Kong because I found someone, the humidity was really screwing around with my my reeds and my drones.

• 27:07Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Rory Stewart?

  Trying to think what the best place at home in Scotland's probably the best place. But unlike you, I'm really, really bad. I've only played in big pipe bands where my lamentable performance can be disguised by the noise of the other people around me. Um. Betting markets are giving Kemal Kilicdaroglu a sixty percent chance of winning the next Turkish presidential election. So that's the leader of the main opposition party. Do you think this is a reasonable estimate of his chances, what happens if he wins? So very, very interesting turnaround, partly sparked, I think, when I was in southern Turkey in the earthquake zone, we talked a little bit about it. The ways in which the response to the earthquake might have affected Erdogan's position and popularity thoughts in Turkey?

• 27:47Alastair Campbell?

  Well, first of all, I think I'm right in saying, this is my my son Rory speaking to me now, the real Rory. Because he knows a lot about betting markets. And I think in general, betting markets tend historically, this is certainly the case in America and Britain. They tend historically to be more accurate in their predictions of elections than the polls. That's the first thing I'd say. Now, I think Turkey's probably a bit different. I think if that is how the betting markets are looking at it. Then and the polls are kind of in roughly the same place, then what that says to me is Erdogan will do absolutely everything he has to do to try to turn that around.

• 28:28Alastair Campbell?

  And I suspect that I wouldn't, I, I think a 60% chance of winning, sounds great. Um, but I think to oust him, you're going to need more than that at the start of the campaign. Um, if he wins, that's a massive, massive, massive change. I mean, to the, in a way, I think that in a way, the Turkish election may be the most important in the world this year.

• 28:49Rory Stewart?

  Well, just to, just to remind people a little bit about, about what's going on here. Um, so he's the leader of the CHP, which was the traditional ruling party, sees itself back to Kemal Atatürk, was close to the military and was the ruling party that was basically displaced by Erdogan's party, which was more of an Islamist party and more of a party that applied, uh, appealed to people who, the poorer, um, the more religious elements in society. So, and the CHP was destroyed really by Erdogan and has been rebuilt, uh, by Kilicdaroglu, who is a man who very, very, you know, intellectually strong, was a senior civil servant, has had an extraordinary life as a politician. I mean, he's sort of, we, we were staying in the Europa Hotel, which has the record

• 29:34Rory Stewart?

  for being the, when we were in Belfast, you and I, the most attacked hotel in the world. But he has to be one of the most attacked politicians in the world. He's been, you know, punched in parliament, his convoy's been hit by missiles from the PKK, he was then bombed by the Islamic State, somebody tried to lynch him at a soldier's funeral. So I think he's somebody who has managed to, with a very quiet manner, unite the six opposition parties behind him and has made a brand of technocratic calm. And, and it will be fascinating to see him come through. He's a deeply reassuring figure.

• 30:10Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, Matthew Hisbend. How do you and Rory feel about government ministers dressing like this? I'll explain in a minute. And using this type of rhetoric on social media against disabled and vulnerable people, while the likes of Michelle Moan laughs at the gullibility of the country while stealing millions? And this was something I commented out at the time. This is a guy called Tom Pursglove, who is a minister in the DWP. And when Matthew talks about ministers dressing like this, he's wearing like a police flak jacket. It's got DWP on it. And he's basically saying, we're going to get you. If you're cheating your benefits, we're going to get you. And as somebody said on, in the media, he looks like, he's trying to look like Liam

• 30:55Alastair Campbell?

  Neeson in Taken. He looks like a kind of, you know, robot cop out to get people. And there were two things. Well, I did think it was, it was attention-seeking unnecessary. And there is, as Matthew points out, the massive contrast with the lack of action going against people who've actually ripped off massive sums from the public purse, not just a few quid here and there of benefits. But the other thing that really troubled me was that his Twitter handle is @votepursglove. And this video was posted on a DWP government site. Now, we're in a local election period. To have your Twitter handle as @vote and then your name, even though you're not standing

• 31:39Alastair Campbell?

  as a candidate, I'm afraid that, to me, Simon, we saw Simon Case in Belfast, somebody in the civil service needs to get a grip of the relentless, in small ways and large ways, politicisation of the resources of the state. You cannot have a handle of @votepursglove and have that promoted by your government department, in my humble opinion.

• 32:02Rory Stewart?

  That seems good. Okay, final question for me, because I think we're coming to the end here. Grace, I'm expecting my first child and I've found that since being pregnant, I've become utterly obsessed with the news. I can't stop reading, scrolling, listening to all things news, which inevitably is more bad than good. I feel it's the important and responsible thing to do to be up to date on what's going on in the world, but I'm having dreams about war and the future of the planet, all that fun stuff. Do you have any tips on avoiding news anxiety? Did you find becoming parents altered your news consumption or your reactions to world events?

• 32:34Alastair Campbell?

  My advice, Grace, is read books, not newspapers, and listen to music, not the news.

• 32:41Rory Stewart?

  And our podcast. You don't think our podcast is contributing to her anxiety?

• 32:44Alastair Campbell?

  I hope not. I think we try, I think we've got quite calming voices. No, I can see that, but I honestly, I know because we, you and I try to stay reasonably well informed, okay? But I don't read newspapers. We don't have a single newspaper delivered to our house. I feel terrible saying that, having been a journalist, but we don't. I don't, I very rarely watch the news. I don't feel that there's much going on that I don't know about because big stuff you get to hear about. And I think it's actually deciding what you're interested in and then kind of trying to explore that in greater detail. And I'm serious about reading books, not newspapers. I got more, you've mentioned a couple of books that you read ahead of going to Belfast, for example, David McCutcheon's book on the troubles and the one you talked about earlier.

• 33:26Alastair Campbell?

  And likewise, that book, if I were to say to somebody, right, you want to try and get inside what's happening in Northern Ireland, or you want to get inside Europe, there's some amazing sort of books on the history of Europe, you're going to learn more than you are by reading some nonsense in a newspaper. So Grace, books, not newspapers, music, not the news.

• 33:43Rory Stewart?

  And I'll finish with just answering a question from Harrison. Where do you find the best place to get your news from? I've been promoting a lot and I like to keep promoting The New York Times on international news and always look at Al Jazeera, always worth looking at Al Jazeera. They do a surprising amount of serious reporting on places that other people are not reporting.

• 34:02Alastair Campbell?

  My final question is from Sarah Kate, and this allows me to do something which I don't normally do, you normally do it for me, which is to plug my book, which I finally got in my hands, the real thing.

• 34:13Rory Stewart?

  And very beautiful, beautiful book.

• 34:15Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but the thing is, Sarah's question suggests, Roy, that despite you plugging my book relentlessly on this podcast, as I promised to return the compliment when yours comes out in September, I think she's slightly misunderstood the book. She says, you keep talking about engaging young people, which is really important, but we all need to be engaged in politics, and probably loads of people from a mixed range of ages, ages aren't engaged. Is it still worth them reading But What Can I Do? How do we engage everyone? Of course it is. What can I do? Is all of us, what can all of us do? And the answer is, we have to do whatever we can do.

• 34:47Rory Stewart?

  Everybody read that book carefully, and we'll take some questions on the book. In fact, we'll question you to make sure you've read it carefully enough.

• 34:53Alastair Campbell?

  In the newsletter, both you and I, Rory, are going to do a thing through the Rest Is Politics, where people can get signed copies. We will explain in the newsletter how that gets done.

• 35:03Rory Stewart?

  Very good. Okay, thank you all so much. Bye bye.

• 35:06Alastair Campbell?

  See you soon.

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