Intimacy, Emotional Baggage, Relationship Longevity, and More - Esther Perel

Psychotherapist Esther Perel https://www.facebook.com/esther.perel/ (@estherperel https://twitter.com/EstherPerel) is back to answer your most requested questions. The New York Times called her the most important game-changer in sexuality and relational health since Dr. Ruth. Her TED talks https://www.ted.com/speakers/esther_perel on maintaining desire and rethinking infidelity have more than 17 million views, and she's tested and been exposed to everything imaginable in 34 years of running her private therapy practice in New York City. In this episode, Esther explains: How to foster relationship longevity. The most effective ways to improve communication in relationships. How to deal with criticism. Letting go of emotional baggage from past relationships. How to know when to move on from a relationship that doesn't seem to be working. And much more. Esther is the author of the international bestseller Mating in Captivity https://www.amazon.com/Mating-Captivity-Unlocking-Erotic-Intelligence/dp/0060753641/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, which has been translated into 26 languages, and her new book, The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity https://www.amazon.com/State-Affairs-Rethinking-Infidelity/dp/0062322583/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1495418324&sr=1-1&keywords=The+State+of+Affairs%3A+Rethinking+Infidelity/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 . Her creative energy is focused on co-creating and hosting an Audible original audio series, Where Should We Begin http://www.estherperel.com/audible/. Enjoy! This podcast is brought to you by ZipRecruiter https://www.ziprecruiter.com/tim. One of the hardest parts about growing any business is finding and hiring the right team. Nothing can drain your resources and cost you time and money like making mistakes in hiring. ZipRecruiter https://www.ziprecruiter.com/tim developed its own system and platform for helping solve two of the biggest bottlenecks for employers: posting jobs easily and making it even easier to find the best candidates. More than 80 percent of jobs posted return qualified candidates based on your criteria in just 24 hours. As a listener to this show, you can give it a try for free at ziprecruiter.com/tim https://www.ziprecruiter.com/tim! This podcast is also brought to you by Audible http://audible.com/tim. I have used Audible http://audible.com/tim for years, and I love audiobooks. I have two to recommend: Ready Player One https://www.audible.com/pd/Sci-Fi-Fantasy/Ready-Player-One-Audiobook/B005FRGT44/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 by Ernest Cline The Tao of Seneca https://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/The-Tao-of-Seneca-Audiobook/B01AIXEJKU/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 by Seneca All you need to do to get your free 30-day Audible trial is visit Audible.com/Tim http://audible.com/tim. Choose one of the above books, or choose any of the endless options they offer. That could be a book, a newspaper, a magazine, or even a class. It's that easy. Go to Audible.com/Tim http://audible.com/tim and get started today.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Esther Perel?

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first

• 1:03Tim Ferriss?

  subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out, go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drink A G one, the number one, drinkag1.com/tim. Last time, drinkag1.com/tim. Check it out. Hello, boys and girls, Sasquatches and squirrels. If that's a thing, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. And I am sitting, listening to people whack mitts and banana bags. I'm imagining doing Muay Thai while I have positioned myself in what's known as the cat room, meow, with red padding over all the walls at ONNIT headquarters

• 1:45Tim Ferriss?

  here in Austin, Texas. Check out ONNIT, O-N-N-I-T dot com, not a paid mention, just a thank you and hat tip to Mr. Aubrey. Thank you, sir, for lending me your space for recording. This episode is a much requested.

• 2:01Tim Ferriss?

  Follow-up with Esther Perel. @estherperel, E-S-T-H-E-R-P-E-R-E-L, on Twitter, who has been called the most important game changer in sexuality and relational health since Dr. Ruth. And since I first met Esther, I've spent more and more time with her. And the more time I spend with her, the more impressed I am. She is the real deal and very, very insightful. Her TED Talks on Maintaining Desire and Rethinking Infidelity have, at this point, probably more than 20 million views. And she's both seen and tested everything imaginable firsthand with couples in 34 years of running her private therapy practice in New York City. Esther is the author of the international bestseller, Mating in Captivity.

• 2:47Tim Ferriss?

  You've probably heard of it, which has been translated into 26 languages. She is fluent in nine of those languages. I've heard her in person use them. And as a Belgian native, she now brings her multicultural pulse to a new book, which I highly recommend checking out, The State of Affairs, subtitle, Rethinking Infidelity. Her creative energy is currently also focused on the creation and hosting of an Audible original audio series, Where Should We Begin? But The State of Affairs is worth checking out. In this episode, Esther answers your most upvoted questions, including how to foster relationship or marriage longevity, the most effective ways to improve communication

• 3:32Tim Ferriss?

  in relationships, how to deal with criticism, letting go of emotional baggage from past relationships, how to know when to move on from a relationship that just doesn't seem to be working, and much, much more. Yeah, if you like Esther, you're gonna love this. And her episode is one of the most downloaded of all time previously. So here is more of the good stuff. Please enjoy this wildly interesting, in my opinion, Q and A from your questions with Esther Perel.

• 4:03Esther Perel?

  Hi, I'm Esther Perel. Thanks for sending in your thoughtful questions. And let's dive in. So this is a question from Gregoire Fri-Fri via Facebook. Would love to ask her how to foster marriage longevity. Any exercises, routines, or habit would be great, especially around fostering deeper emotional relationships. There is the first basics: appreciation. Just simply saying a lot of nice things, not taking things for granted, not forgetting to say thank you and please just because it's the person that you live with. Making compliments, holding hands, kissing, stroking, sending sweet notes, buying flowers, preparing breakfast, bringing the coffee to bed.

• 4:48Esther Perel?

  All those sweet things that people do that basically let you know that they live inside of you, that you're thinking of them even when they're not there. These daily appreciations, they go a long way. And it sometimes is a real diligent effort to keep doing them. And then I am a strong fan of letter writing. I think that when you fly away, when you're away, when you're sitting in a café, when you just have a moment, to drop a note that is not just on the birthdays and on the anniversaries, just kind of your own musings about your lives together, your dreams, where you're going, how you met, what you remember, what you fancy. That is actually very much the kind of the telling of the story,

• 5:33Esther Perel?

  you know, the story of the couple. There's a lot of intimacy in there. Touch is a major experience of intimacy. I think when you do that, humor, and things that kind of really encourage the other person in which you recognize them at their most authentic. Go do this thing. This is really something you really like. Take a few more days. You know, you wanted to always take this class. Go take this class. Kind of ways in which you encourage the other person to be the best version of themselves and vice versa. Be the best version of yourself with them. It's really basic, uh, what makes a relationship sustain itself and be, um, be more nurturing.

• 6:17Esther Perel?

  Next, Alicia Tenea Eichelberger via Facebook asks, how to lessen arguments in your marriage? Look, I think it's all about the art of speaking and listening. You know, there was a sculpture a few years back by Bruce Neumann, and it was a World Peace Project. And he had twenty-three inch monitors with faces of the most diverse group of people, diverse races, ethnicities, gender, ages, all of it. And every single person, every face was saying, I'll talk and you'll listen. You'll talk and I'll listen. They'll talk and we listen. You'll talk and we listen. And it just showed you this, the, the, the, the robustness of this most difficult art,

• 7:02Esther Perel?

  which often I would say listening is harder than speaking. But then for some people, maybe speaking actually becomes the hardest thing. In a relationship, you can often get the daily hassles in which you are grinding at each other and, um, in which there's a, a friction going on. Um, don't sweat the small things is probably really important in terms of, uh, um, how people deal with, uh, with arguments in a relationship. I would say, don't complain, ask. Behind every criticism, there's often a wish. And if, because if you believe that your partner has done, done something wrong, that they didn't pay a bill on time or anything, um, and you wish that they had done it right.

• 7:46Esther Perel?

  But instead of asking them to correct it, you basically tell them that he can never do it well, that you, they're doing this on purpose, that, you know, just ask them to do it better next time. You know, rather than would it kill you, you know? Something simply, do you think that next time, you know, you could set a monthly alert so that you don't forget? It's a very different tone. It's a very different way of relating to the person. There's no contempt in that one, which, uh, we know from the research of John Gutman is one of the four horses of apocalypse. Actually, I'm gonna give you the four horses, get the really important. One is criticism, contempt, stonewalling, and defensiveness. Those four are pretty much the, the, the killers in the, in the land of arguments and relationship decline.

• 8:31Esther Perel?

  You know, try not to talk with categoricals of all, always and never, all or nothing. Um, that probably is one of the most important changes in vocabulary. Uh, banish them. You know, I always have to ask you, you never do this. No. The moment you say you never, the other person is gonna come up with the one time that they knew and that they've done it so that they can defeat your argument, rather than really understand that you're asking them to do it more often. Which is exactly why I say, ask, don't complain. Add some humor, add some humor. There's nothing that's gonna diffuse your arguments more than just putting some perspective into it and not take yourself so seriously.

• 9:10Esther Perel?

  Show empathy. At the end of the day, you know, assume that your partner has the same interest as you to solve the stresses in your relationship. And for that to happen, it's important that both of you understand and appreciate the other person's point of view. Do you really think that the other person wants you to purposefully be annoyed or hurt you or let you down? Probably not. Um, it's all of that shift that takes you out of relationships that are mired in bickering, chronic, low-intensity warfare, or high conflict. Because there's a range there, okay? Imagine I ask you, has your arguing turned toxic? As in, does your partner keep telling you that you can never do it right?

• 9:55Esther Perel?

  Or that they can never do it right by you? That every little convo about who should set the table will end up in a blowout about how dysfunctional your relationship is. Or that two minutes into a fight, one of you is saying we should get a divorce or we should break up. That's what I'm calling a high-conflict couple. The opposite of the arguments is you come in and you say, I wanna listen to what you have to say. I wanna apologize. What can I do to make this better? And not what can you do to make this better? Shift it around and you'll have magic happening. Okay. Next.

• 10:34Esther Perel?

  Question from Ben Altman about jealousy. How the majority of non-exclusive relationships I've seen seem to get done in by one of two parties, feeling possessive? How do we rid ourselves from these negative emotions? Ben, I think that jealousy is intrinsic to love. I don't think of it as a negative emotion. It is part and parcel of the experience. I think that sometimes it's an interesting experience, particularly in the US, where people often will say, "I'm not jealous because I'm angry." As if jealousy is a feeling that is politically incorrect. It doesn't have much popularity these days. Jealousy is an erotic rage. Jealousy is the feeling you have when your partner takes their love,

• 11:19Esther Perel?

  their desire, their excitement to someone else. And you want it more directed toward you? It is thwarted away from you. So I don't suggest that you rid yourself from that emotion. I suggest that you integrate the emotion. It tells you something. It generates action. It generates conversations. And it is not the same as possessiveness. They're related, but they're not the same. On the other end, here is a simple formula for possessiveness. If you love someone, set them free. If they love you, they'll come back. Joseph Di Bernardo posted this question on Twitter. Esther, what is the best way to move on after divorce

• 12:02Esther Perel?

  and deal with post-marriage depression sadness? Especially for men who find it difficult to speak about their inner pain of the divorce and the lack of connection. Joseph, I'm going to tell you something. Men have a much harder time post-divorce emotionally and physically than women. Maybe not financially, but in every other respect, they do.

• 12:25Esther Perel?

  They suffer much more. They're more at risk for accidents, for drinking. They take a hit because they need women. Even though they want to pretend that they don't, it goes against the cultural narrative. I think that what you have in this moment is two things. One, you absolutely want to reach out. And I think if you have friends that you can talk to, that would be great. Male or female friends. If you wanna go to a men's retreat, to a men's group, there is nothing comparable to it at this point. Then groups where guys come together to talk about their inner life, what's going on with them.

• 13:04Esther Perel?

  It's empowering, it builds solidarity, it takes you out of the loneliness, out of the shame, out of the isolation, out of the feeling of failure, all of it, all of it. There's nothing more powerful than a group of people that come together and hold one person while that person can't hold themselves. It's a spiritual challenge, it's not just a relationship challenge, so you need to go get energy, you're depleted. And one of the ways that you get energy is by going to do something for others, go help others. The research is very clear, the most powerful antidepressant is doing for other people.

• 13:43Esther Perel?

  It puts things in perspective, it makes you feel like you have something to offer, it makes you feel appreciated by the people whom you're helping. It changes the entire equation of what's going on inside of you. Um, right, I think journaling is an important part of mourning. On occasion, if it works out, it may be a good thing to have a final conversation with your ex. A bit of time later where you kind of clear things and you you try to have a different conversation than the ones that you had when things really tanked. I think that it's also useful on occasion to go to your family and to ask a little bit about what has been the history of relationships in the family, so that you get to get to learn a little bit as well.

• 14:24Esther Perel?

  What are some of the unknown legacies that you carry inside of you? The main thing is don't isolate yourself, that's that's it. And you will see that when you start to talk, people generally appreciate it. They don't know to do it themselves, but they like it when they feel that they have something to offer, when they're made to feel significant because someone else opens up to them. It's the opposite sometimes of what we anticipate. Okay, good luck to you. The real Josh Gill asks on Twitter, I'd love to hear her talk about letting go, moving past the anger from being cheated on, the anger towards the partner that cheated.

• 15:06Esther Perel?

  The friends that seemingly abandoned the one that was cheated on. And the anger towards the self for not seeing the relationship falling apart sooner. And trying to fix it. A lot of self blame here, right? A lot of self blame and a lot of anger at the other people for not being there for you. You know. Often when people are cheated on, the the first thing is to say, what's what am I, what's wrong with me? What am I missing? Uh, why am I not enough? Or why didn't I see it? Um, but sometimes there is. A reason that people engage in trauma denial. That people don't want to see, because when we don't see, it protects us. It preserves a certain coherence to our life.

• 15:49Esther Perel?

  Uh, it's not just because we are fools and idiots and easily duped. Um, so be careful about not pouring all kinds of self loading onto you. What kind of an idiot are you? How could you not know it? Uh, what kind of a guy lets himself be walked on like this? Uh, you should have known, you should have seen, you should have done more. Ask yourself the questions, but from a place of responsibility, not from a place of. Beating yourself down and blaming yourself, because then you can't think. If you put yourself that much down and you feel so terrible about yourself, you cannot really think. All you can do is just protect yourself from getting the blows. Now. There are phases in the recovery as well. The first thing is just simply.

• 16:31Esther Perel?

  You know, the hurt, the anger, the confusion, the disbelief, the disorientation. The the the loss of the predictable future, the idea that whatever you thought your life was gonna be, it isn't gonna happen, all of that. And you need to really respect that. All these feelings are gonna hit you all at once. Um, and it's gonna be an avalanche of all this maelstrom. And that's normal. It's in the nature of the beast. It's really, really normal. And gradually, at the occasion, you will mourn this and you will think. You know, it wasn't good anyway, and at other times you will say, I could have continued this way. How could she destroy all of that? And then you can ask your friends, talk to them. Did you see things? Did you try to warn me? Did I not listen?

• 17:17Esther Perel?

  Were you equally as surprised as me? But you need to know that there are phases of recovery. I've written about it extensively in my new book. You go from the crisis. Then you go and you move into the insight phase where you start to make sense of all of this. Why did this happen? What can I learn from this? What does it say about our relationship? What does it say about me? What does it say about her? And then there is the, where does this take me now? What are my lessons? Where am I going to go with that? And, and, and try not to have this just become a script for anger and bitterness. I think that when you're very angry all the time, you basically also protect yourself from not being too sad, from not being hurt, from not feeling vulnerable.

• 18:02Esther Perel?

  It kind of props you up to be angry. And it gives you a sense of righteousness. But be- behind the anger is often a real sense of collapse. And let yourself go there. It's okay. It really hurts. To just be angry isn't gonna make it for you. And how to allow yourself that? By being with people who you trust, to with, next to whom you can fall apart, who won't judge you for it, who understand heartbreak. It is a human emotion. It's one of the oldest experiences we've had, and it's part of our humanity. You won't avoid it. You won't avoid it. Let yourself feel the pain and the hurt and the sadness and cry. And then you'll come through it. You know, I'm thinking about a guy that I wrote about in my book,

• 18:47Esther Perel?

  who, who was actually, it was his brother who cheated with, on him, with, with the girl that he used to date. And for years, for years, every time a girl liked him, he thought, you know, who's, who's else is hiding here behind that I'm not seeing? He really carried it with him for a long time. It takes a while till you begin to trust again, till you begin to feel good about yourself again, till you feel that you are able to be loved and lovable. It really goes very deep, this experience. Um, it taps into our sense of self-worth, all of that. Uh, and I hope that the stories that I wrote about in the book will help you with that. Uh, they were meant for that. They were meant to help you, okay? Thank you.

• 19:30Esther Perel?

  Ranjani eighty-six writes on Twitter. Is it harder to find true love as you get older and progressively more intelligent? Do you have to be young and stupid to find love? Do most people in search of a partner settle at some point? Um, glad you're back, but I'm gonna challenge the, the premise of your question a little bit. You know, what does it mean that you're going to settle, that you? I think the main thing is this. When you are younger, you allow yourself the experience of meeting someone, seeing where it takes you, unfolding with the story and, uh, and embracing the, the, the surprise of where this thing is going that you didn't expect.

• 20:11Esther Perel?

  But when you're looking for a relationship as an adult and you come with your expectations, you often thwart the possibility for a story to unfold and to surprise you because you're sitting there with an inventory. And you're not really allowing for the unknown to, to open itself up to you and to take you on a ride that you didn't see coming. Um, I think most of the dating that involves a checklist is doomed. That's, that's the best way I can say it. It's, it's anti-romance, it's anti-story, and stories are the way we live our lives. Um, it's, it's a list of items. And often you will find that people match all the items on your list and the feeling isn't there.

• 20:54Esther Perel?

  Because a feeling is something that emerges, that develops through interaction, through shared experience, through the creation of a shared story together. And, um, I don't believe that that is any less possible as an adult. In fact, when you are older, you are clearer about what you like, what you resonate with. You know yourself better and from that place, you are more able to appreciate the person that is in front of you, but it's not like you have to be young and foolish to fall in love. No, absolutely not. There is no age for it. People fall in love at any age at this point. People have the opportunity for the first time in history to actually start entire new lives um in their fifty, sixty, seventies. Um, love doesn't have an age to it.

• 21:38Esther Perel?

  We love differently because we are more mature, because we accept certain things more and because we accept other things less. And we don't necessarily call that settling. Settling means what? I only found six items on my list out of the ten? That's not the way we do it. We make a choice and a choice always involves a loss. And at some points, we make certain choices that are maybe more rational or more forward looking. We understand that there are certain things we need in order to live with someone and that there are certain people with whom we could have a fantastic love affair and a fantastic adventure, but maybe not necessarily build a whole life together. And in that sense, we become, we are able to hold more elements at the same time

• 22:22Esther Perel?

  and make a decision that embraces ambivalence. It's something that that I call maturity, not settling. Kavilina asks through Twitter, when do you know a relationship is done? That is such a powerful question. It's really, but but what do we mean by done? That you don't like who you have become? That you don't like what you're doing? That you don't like how you're, how you're being reflected back? That the relationship has lost itself of its sense of aliveness and vitality? Or that it has become toxic and is dying on the vine? What do we call done? Yeah, I think that the main element that is really for me, the kiss of death, the end of a relationship is contempt.

• 23:07Esther Perel?

  Cause it really involves a profound sense of dehumanization. When that tone that just says, look at you, come on, what is this? Is that you call this a relationship? That sense of of this of self loading and contempt. It's very hard to come back from that. You can fight, you can be critical, you can complain, you can be volatile. You can have a lot of things in a relationship. Um, because from there you can always come back into sweet repair, tender, connecting, et cetera. And you just go through the cycles of connection, disconnection and repair, which is the triad of relationships. But contempt is a real tough one. Um, the belittling, the infantilizing, the demeaning, the degrading,

• 23:52Esther Perel?

  all these categories of relationships, which basically amount to abusiveness. To me, that is a moment where a relationship really is done because what it means is that one, in order to protect oneself, one needs to leave. Unless you're the one doing it. And then, in order to protect yourself and the other, you need to change. Thank you. Kelsey Halman asks on Facebook, how does she handle her critics? Oh, God, that is a wonderful question. Does she read and comment on the internet trolls for her book reviews, podcasts, etc. How does she deal with the people who think they know more about relationship than her? So, I love this question because

• 24:38Esther Perel?

  it allows me to say something, you know, I am often considered a thought leader or an expert. I actually see myself much more as a student and as a person who is avidly curious and continues to learn on a daily basis, rather than as someone who positions herself as knowing. I think about these things a lot. I often can sound very confident, but I'm sure of nothing. One thing I can say is that nothing I say is made up, but that doesn't mean it's true. I also don't think there is one truth. And I think that I am a person who continuously seeks to be challenged. I go and then check with other people, am I missing something? Is there something I didn't think about? Is there validity in the criticism?

• 25:22Esther Perel?

  I invite conversation, dialogue, confrontation, and disagreement. Where it hurts, where I find myself at a loss, is when people are taking one thing I say, completely distorting it, caricaturing me or what I say, when I try so hard to embrace complexity and nuance and kind of feel completely flattened by a complete misunderstanding of what I say, often to the extent where I wonder if the people actually really read my work. Engaged with me, and I wish that the critics actually came to me and asked me and engaged with me and challenged me rather than just, you know, trash me.

• 26:08Esther Perel?

  I generally try not to read too much of it because it hurts and because I don't feel that there is an invitation for the dialogue. Whoever comes to me directly, respectfully, and says, "I disagree. I think you're wrong," etc., etc., I will speak with. Whoever is avoiding me and just going behind my back and using the internet to anonymously or not anonymously trash, I think is participating in the shame culture and in the trashing culture of the moment and with all the consequences that we all know are involved in this. So that's my relationship to criticism. I welcome it when it's done humanely, when it's done respectfully.

• 26:54Esther Perel?

  Safran one asks on Twitter, "We often hear communication is key in a relationship, but as I believe she has mentioned in her book, too much can hinder desire. What then is the juste milieu?" Okay, listen, you make me think of a song by Carly Simon, "No Secrets," in which she has a line, "Sometimes I wish I didn't know those secrets of yours." You know, I think that the free love of the sixties came with a view of honesty and transparency and letting it all hang out there. And while it kind of came with the rise of individualism as everything that a person experiences is at the center. It matters, it needs to be met.

• 27:40Esther Perel?

  I also think that the other side of this kind of wholesale sharing is an ethos of candor like that, is that there needs to be consideration, politeness. And I find that those two qualities are often in short supply in contemporary relationships. There's this notion that we expect the partner to just hold on to all of our feelings and make us feel better, rather than engage a little more in our own self-soothing and in our own self-regulation and in going and venting to others. It actually has always been the case that people vented to people outside of the relationship in order to be able to sustain what happened on the inside.

• 28:21Esther Perel?

  But it's about kind of don't let your emotional hemorrhoids bleed like that inside your house all the time. I don't know that this is always the best. We of course want communication, we want exchange, we want deepening and real meeting with the other. But I'm not sure that the kind of all out there is the only model. And what you're gonna hear from me always is that there isn't one way only. There isn't one size fits all. And so while I answer you in one way, I may answer someone else differently. And I think it's that richness that I want us all to hold here. On occasion, let it be. You don't have to react to everything. Not everything is a ten. Certain things are just a two. They're not really that important.

• 29:06Esther Perel?

  And that's another song that I think we really need to be able to hum on occasion. And in terms of the the not tending everything on the desire, it's really this. The questions, the interest that you wanna keep for your partner or vice versa, are a way in which you remain curious, interested, engaged with the other person as a person. The way that we often are in the beginning, where we are just interested in who is this person. And what happens over time is that people often feel that they know their partner, as if they belong to them, as if they're just an extension of them. And that's naturally a contrived illusion of safety. It's not true.

• 29:48Esther Perel?

  In the face of the unknown, which exists right in our midst, there is that mystery of the other. And the mystery of the other is simply available once you continue to be curious about them, rather than assume this kind of familiarity. That's what I'm trying to say about the connection to desire. Because if desire exists in that space of exploration, of discovery, of curiosity, once you remain curious to your partner, once you continue to think of them as a person, not just as your partner, the desire can continue to thrive as well. The next question you're asking is: What, according to her observations and experience, are the essential blocks to build a strong foundation between partners?

• 30:32Esther Perel?

  And what is essential in a relationship to maintaining longevity? There are many, many pieces that I think are part of thriving relationships. But I'll give you a few, just the ones that come up now. And then if we meet again, you'll ask me again and I'll give you a few others. Yes, I'll go on. Number one: not everything must be said. I think that, in light of the culture that we live in today, I will probably say not everything must be said. If we were talking and meeting in other parts of the world, I would say the exact opposite. More things need to be spoken sometimes, okay? Just so you understand, these things, these answers are always taking place in a context, and specifically in a cultural context.

• 31:14Esther Perel?

  The second thing, I think one of the most important combinations in a relationship is the combination between empathy and responsibility. It's your ability to continue to see your partner from their own point of view, is to enter the shoes of the other. And on the other side, your ability to take responsibility for that which is yours, your own contribution, your mistakes, your flaws, just... I'm sorry, I did this actually, next time I'll do differently. I own it, I own it. The minute you can own something, it gives you freedom, rather than thinking that all problems and all changes actually belong to the other person. And the next piece that is really essential

• 31:58Esther Perel?

  to the balance in a relationship is the ability to navigate separateness and togetherness. You know, to have space, to have individuality, to have self-expression, to have your own friends, to have your own experiences that are not all related to the couple. And then also to have very strong things that belong to the couple. But some couples have a tiny overlap of the concentric circles and some couples have a complete overlap. So there's a range. Some people love to just have a big, big, big togetherness and a small separateness, and others the other way around. But it is that negotiation, and it changes over life. It's not one and the same when you meet and then 15 years later.

• 32:44Esther Perel?

  The next thing for a long relationship is flexibility. It's adaptability. It's your ability to say, you know, we used to do it like this. This worked for 10 years. It doesn't work anymore. Change. And that are things that people are much more able to do in their companies and in their workplaces than they are willing to do at home. This is often a real static attitude towards the relationship. We met a certain way. We set it up a certain way. My role, your role, my responsibilities, your responsibilities. And it goes on like that for 35 years, you know? And then we collapse. So the ability to just come together and say, I need something different. Let's change this. I love couples who have an annual summit and kind of review their relationship. Where's it going? How are we doing? You know, or even monthly.

• 33:27Esther Perel?

  Just because it shows intentionality. It shows attention. It shows care. The same way that you water your plants, you know, rather than a kind of letting it go and let's say for a long time on end. That kind of diligence makes a big difference. And then the last one, I will say, for longevity and for thriving relationships, because so many of you had the question about what makes a relationship last, is engaging with new experiences. Not just comfortable and pleasant experiences. Those make for a real familiarity and security and stability in the couple. But what really makes it thrive, what brings it aliveness and vitality, is the engagement with new experiences outside of the comfort zone.

• 34:11Esther Perel?

  Because they breed new cells. And all the research is confirming that at this point. Novelty breeds testosterone. And it's not novelty of sex positions. It's really different ways of being with oneself in the relationship and with each other. So all of that combined, you have a good chance to go for quite a while. Alexandalis on Twitter and Aspen Janai Mulcahy on Facebook are asking, how do millennials bring back romance and emotional intimacy? What do you see are the biggest flaws of young men in their twenties and how they communicate with women? What advice do you have for them? I'm going to divide this in two. Look.

• 34:53Esther Perel?

  There isn't much romance when people make dates on text all the time. On occasion, today, romance will be a phone call. In the past, romance was a card. It's like, you know, who still gets picked up at the door? Who still gets brought back at the door? Who gets a call the next morning? I mean, it's all these things that are often seen as kind of passé and an old century. But in fact, I don't think the repertoire has particularly changed. A text doesn't go very far in terms of flattery, does it? Anything that goes beyond the bare minimum is romance. Because romance is pining, romance is seduction, romance is flirtation.

• 35:37Esther Perel?

  And that is a cultivated art by which you are gradually making the other person melt in your arms. But for that, you have to be able to say, I want you. And that means you have to experience the vulnerability of putting yourself out there. And it seems that these days, too many young people are quite reluctant to experience the vulnerability and the uncertainty of not knowing, of making that phone call and hoping that somebody is gonna answer and it won't be her dad. You know, like it used to be. And that butterfly thing has kind of been done away with. The stuff is way too much immediate gratification. So there is no space in between to still experience

• 36:22Esther Perel?

  the excitement and of the anticipation and the uncertainty. But all of that was part of romance. That was the romantic plot. The romantic plot, it plays itself out in the will it happen, won't it happen? The denouement is irrelevant. That's what, you know, a romance novel is three hundred pages for the last piece. And the last piece is only one page. It's three hundred pages of will it or will it not? And that's romance. Now, in terms of the question of what to do, take the risks, take the risks. Don't just go in a bar, just it's not just a booty call. You know, put yourself out there and say, I want you and I'll take the time. I coached this guy recently, um, and it was very sweet, you know.

• 37:06Esther Perel?

  Woman basically calls it off, seven o'clock Friday night, you know, not a very nice thing to do. She's busy, she has a meeting, whatever. And I'm, and then he goes into a hole, you know, she'll like, wait, does that mean she's not interested? She's interested. I just said, look, text her back and say, I understand, makes, you know, you, uh, but twice as much time for tomorrow, please. Come back with something that is funny, but that breeds confidence and that is assertive and that says, I'm still very interested and you owe me a double dose. Um, she liked it, she liked it. Now, if she doesn't, if she has no interest in him, then she will tell him at that moment, please don't bother. But if she has a slight interest in him, he will gain a lot of points with one of those things.

• 37:52Esther Perel?

  Um, I've done more and more, you know, coaching people lately, just looking at their Tinder feeds, just the, the kind of exchanges. Not only do they like romance, they like, they like anything that says to people, you know, you're interesting to me and I would like to meet you, just, it's really thin, it's really thin. So, um, there is the issue of romance, but there is the broader question simply of how do people these days literally, turn each other on with their minds, not just the other ways. Okay.

• 38:30Esther Perel?

  Um, man, there's a beautiful book by Rob Garfield called Questioning the Male Code, which I recommend for many of you. Um, but the male code often comes with a fix-it attitude. Um, and fix it. Is I have an answer, I have a solution. Uh, and it is part of the making of masculinity, competence, performance, problem solving. So, um, unfortunately, in the relationship with women, fix it doesn't often work. Because many times she wants to only talk, she wants to share the experience. She doesn't really wanna be told what to do. She's quite competent, she quite knows what to do.

• 39:14Esther Perel?

  And if you give her unsolicited advice, she'll experience it as patronizing. So the flip side of fix it is empathy, is two things. Tell me more, tell me more. Main side, that's all you need to do. You don't have to solve it. You just have to ask her if she wants to continue to talk about it. And you wanna engage in empathic murmurings. Hmm, oh, really? Oh, that's tough. Oh, wow. You know, that kind, um, that says, I'm listening. It is most of the time what she needs. If you wanna give advice, ask her if she wants to hear it. And otherwise, wait till she asks for it. The fear that people have sometimes, that guys have when they say, tell me more, is that she's gonna start and it will never stop.

• 39:58Esther Perel?

  So if she says, we have to talk, he says, how long? And in fact, when you say, tell me more, the answer will be much shorter than if you don't. And she still isn't sure that you really get it. So that's really the main, the main piece in terms of, uh, um, um, men in communication. And I'm not so sure that it is different for young guys or for even men, my generation boomers. It's really, you don't have to have an answer. And you don't have to feel like you make, you need to solve the problem or make the feelings go away. You actually need to do less. And your challenge is to still feel competent, even if you do less. But you will be much more appreciated, actually.

• 40:43Esther Perel?

  Um, I had one other little thought that when we talked about the, the things for longevity and the things for, for deepening the intimacy and all of these things, which I didn't talk about, which is people sitting in the morning and having breakfast, watching outside the window, listening to music together, dancing together for a moment. You know, the, the average pop song is two point three minutes. If you just do that, it doesn't take a long time. People sometimes think it's so much work to maintain this intimacy. It actually is not. It's 2.3 minutes to listen to some of the most beautiful love songs ever written and reconnect with that feeling between the two of you. Okay?

• 41:23Esther Perel?

  So I hope that I've given you some ideas, inspirations, food for thought in the pursuit of your own loving and thriving relationships. I want to add a piece to Kavilina's question. When do you know that a relationship is done? Kavilina, I was talking about the four horsemen of apocalypse that a famous researcher on relationships, John Gottman, talks about. And I wanted to expand a little bit on that. You know, one is criticism. And, okay, it's quite easy, right? It's complaining, it's picking at the other person.

• 42:03Esther Perel?

  It's seeing what you do as circumstantial and seeing the other person as characterological, right? If you're in a bad mood, it's because you had a tough day. But if the other person doesn't act very nicely, it's because they're actually generally a mean person. You know, or a bad-tempered person, rather than they too may have had a bad day, right? So all the elements that have to do with criticism, the way that people just gnaw at the other person and just go and circle around the same grievances over and over again. That's the piece that he's talking about. Stonewalling is silent treatment. It's basically, you know, withdrawing, removing oneself and letting the other person stand out there and talk to the walls.

• 42:48Esther Perel?

  That's another major horseman of apocalypse. Defensiveness. The fact that, you know, you can't bring anything up without the other person instantly rejecting, defensive, going knee-jerk instead of just saying, yes, thank you for telling me, let me think about this. Or simply, aye, that doesn't feel good, but, you know.

• 43:11Esther Perel?

  Probably I do, yes, I do do that, you know, I don't mean to, but I do, or, or, or it's an old bad habit of mine, or something that acknowledges, that stands accountable, that doesn't incident, yeah, but you, you know, and then says you did worse, and then starts to pile up, you know, and, and for everything you said, the other person counters right away with something worse, so that they never have to look at the thing that you said you said, yeah, but yesterday you, all of that, okay, that defensiveness, it's, it's very rich defensiveness, but it basically leaves you without the feeling that you ever can bring something up and that it will be responded to for its own sake.

• 43:51Esther Perel?

  Um, and then contempt, that's the one that I think is the, the final killer, um, the, for, for a relationship. And that one I already detailed for you, and I wanted you to have a sense about, this is for your question actually about the relationship being done, but also the question that was asked by, ah, Alicia, asked about how to lessen the arguments in your, in your relationship. So the opposite of these four killers of relationship have to do with how do people stay connected in the midst of disagreement?

• 44:29Esther Perel?

  And I think the most, and this is something I wanted to expand more for Alicia's question, is that you really need to know something about arguing in a relationship. It often has very little to do with the content of the argument itself. When couples enter into a vicious cycle, and they are reactive, and they escalate, and they bicker, and they fight, it doesn't really matter the subject anymore at a certain point. If it's the kids, or the car, or the money, or what they were gonna do for Christmas, it always gonna sound the same, and what you're gonna hear is that people end up being in an interaction where they don't feel acknowledged, they don't feel validated, they feel dismissed,

• 45:13Esther Perel?

  they feel that the other person competes with them, that they are outmaneuvered, and it doesn't matter what they talk about. So the, the real truth about conflict in relationships is that the form precedes the content. The way these arguments unfold is one and the same, if it is this, or if it is about greenpeace in South Korea, it makes no difference. It's no longer about the issue itself. And once you know that, then you have to go at the form. And the form is what the people are doing to each other while they say the things they say. And what they're doing is this long list I've just gone through.

• 45:51Esther Perel?

  The opposite of dismissing and disqualifying and invalidating is acknowledging and recognizing and validating and empathizing. And that doesn't mean you don't agree. So there's a very, very good method developed by Mark, Howard Markman, sorry. It's called PREP. And it's a book fighting for your marriage. It's actually quite good. And in PREP, basically, they tell you, in negative communication, you pretty much have 10 seconds before you get ready for the rebuttal. That's about as much as you can listen to something that your partner says and that you disagree with. And 10 seconds is three sentences.

• 46:34Esther Perel?

  So the way you minimize the arguments is by beginning to practice reflective listening. It's tedious, it's annoying, but it's highly effective. What I'm hearing you say, and you repeat. Is there more? And you repeat, and vice versa. And then when you talk, you do X, Y, Z statements. When you do X in situation Y, I feel Z. When you don't even look up when I walk into the house because you're busy at your computer the whole time, and I am trying to make a connection with you, I feel like I don't matter and you don't love me. Something like that.

• 47:16Esther Perel?

  That is very different from you couldn't give a "mm" about me, and anytime I come home, you on purpose pretend like you didn't hear it. Okay? That's an attack. From that attack, all you're gonna get is a defense. And the defense can be a counterattack or a stone walling. Uh, or a defensiveness, or a criticism, or a, or a contempt. That here you have your four horses. The sentence is broken down in such a way that if I have an experience of what you do, that is not the same as my defining that this is what you do. It says that when you do this, I experience it in a certain way, and that's my feeling. And you can't argue with the other person's feeling.

• 47:59Esther Perel?

  You can argue with another person trying to define you and to define you negatively. That X, Y, Z is intensely transformative when people really begin to practice it. So, uh, that's one way out of the little hell of, of chronic arguments. Okay, let me take a few other questions that I haven't, uh, that I haven't spoken about. How can men effectively handle their sex drive, asks the V. Winestock. Look, I don't know exactly what you mean by effectively handle their sex drive. If you're asking, you know, what do men do when they are horny and, and, and they wanna have sex, but they don't have partners available, or they have a partner who, steady partner, who is not there at that moment or not interested.

• 48:45Esther Perel?

  I think one of the things that I would say is this. Sex for men is very much connected to what goes on inside of them. If they're angry, if they're happy, if they're anxious, if they're depressed, if they feel good about themselves, and if they don't. Some men turn to sex to soothe themselves when they're anxious. Besides, when they feel good, that's a given. Some men experience sex as the one and only language through which they can experience emotional intimacy. Some men experience sex as the only language to whom, to which they can feel tender, they're soft, connected. Uh, it won't be the first time that you will hear women describe guys who open up,

• 49:27Esther Perel?

  who they feel are truly there, who are really intimate with them, only in sex. Because it is the sanctioned language for guys to experience what otherwise are often forbidden emotions for men. So, that's for me, when you ask about effectively handling sex drives. It has to do with that, it has to do with. Being not just monolingual, having many languages available, having many ways to take care of our needs, of our feelings, and not just one. That's the effectiveness of sex, is to not have it be the only thing available. Uh, for the rest, uh, I'm not sure that there is a unique way to effectively deal with drives.

• 50:10Esther Perel?

  But one thing you need to know, sex is not a drive. You don't die from not having sex. You die from not being touched, but you don't die from not having sex. It's a motivational system, it's not a drive, that's not the same. Yebing is asking, what are some of the suggestions and resources that she has for couples who want to explore having a more monogamish relationship? Not poly, but more flexible than traditional monogamy, especially when it comes to navigating boundaries, emotions, and sexual health. It's a beautiful question. So, first of all, there's the movie that comes out right now, the O'Grusby's movie, called Monogamish. Uh, it's premiering in New York, actually, this week.

• 50:52Esther Perel?

  So, um, that would be, uh, it's a very nice movie to see together because it really opens up the conversation. Um, and for me, the open relationship is less about what people actually do than the openness of the conversation itself. Uh, many people don't nearly wanna do as much as they wanna do that they could if they wanted. They don't wanna feel that they live with the restrictions of the boundaries. And then, it's a conversation. What is it that you miss? What is it that you feel drawn to? What would you like to experience? Do you wanna experience it alone? Do you wanna experience it together? Do you want me to know about it? Is it a turn-on for you if I tell you? Or do you actually not wanna know about it? And often, you'll find you have one of each in a couple.

• 51:36Esther Perel?

  Is it, do you wanna be, is it something that you want that is fleeting? That is just, that if you meet someone, you want the possibility of letting something unfold and see where it takes you? Is it when you travel, because you're often away? Or is it that you have been with me since you were seventeen and you want to know other partners, because you've never known others beside me? It's this whole conversation and not to take it immediately as something is missing. I can't give you everything. I should be everything for you. If you have any other interest, it must mean that I'm not enough. It's really that conversation and what you will find is that the couples for whom this is an a joint interest.

• 52:15Esther Perel?

  Um. The conversation itself is often very enlivening, very vibrant and very, very intimate. Because the possibility of talking to your partner about your longings for that which takes place outside. And to have it be recognized and accepted is a deeply intimate conversation. The, the, the recognition of your freedom, of your, of your erotic uh freedom. On which you may not, not act, but that it exists even in fantasy, even in curiosity, in longing, in interest. Is profoundly intimate for couples. And then you talk about, do we wanna, do, do I wanna know, what do we tell each other?

• 52:56Esther Perel?

  Do we notify in advance? Do we tell after it has happened? Uh. What is it that you wanna know? And understand that you don't have a necessarily a symmetric need. One of you may wanna know more, one of you doesn't, one of you likes to share, one of you doesn't. You don't have to be one and the same. And then you come back and you, and you examine. It works for us, it doesn't work for us, it makes, brings us closer, it makes us too nervous. It now in the end, it doesn't, it's not a good thing for us. Or not right now because we have young kids and we're not equal. Or because one of us is not working and we're not equal. Or because one of us has been sick and we're not, you know. Uh. By definition, there needs to be a certain level of, of equality in the relationship.

• 53:41Esther Perel?

  For the conversation to not be a, a power maneuver. Uh. Both people need to have the same possibilities. Um. They may not both wanna act on them, but they need to both know that they could. If they want it and if that's part of the agreement. And then you come back and you examine, is this good for us? This is work. When I say work, meaning do we feel enriched by it? Or do we feel like it's depleting us, that it's taking away from us? That it ultimately, no, we thought it would be a good idea, but it's not really. Or this has actually opened up things between us. We've had a whole different level of honesty between us, a whole different depth of communication that never existed before.

• 54:24Esther Perel?

  We bring back different parts of ourselves. The reunions are beautiful. We make love before we go off to meet someone else. We only accept it when one of us is traveling. It's a very rich conversation and it's often many, many conversations before anybody even acts on any of this. That's how this process goes. Then you can read some books, you can read Taov Minos' book, Open, you can read Sex at Dawn. And you can talk to other people who actually practice consensual non-monogamy, varieties thereof, and how it works for them. You get ideas. But often people don't tell you that that's what they do because it's so negatively judged. So it's not like you can go and ask them, how do you raise your children?

• 55:08Esther Perel?

  Because I'm looking for some ideas. But you will find people who are willing to talk and have experienced it for years. So they're practiced at it. That doesn't mean it's what works for you, but it inspires you. It gives you what you should be thinking about. And that's how I would start this thing. The last question I will do. How do I help people come to terms and come to accept themselves? You know, for me, self-acceptance is really a process of maturation. I don't expect people in their twenties to easily accept themselves. So I do put this on a spectrum of time. But I think the fundamental experience of accepting yourself is that you accept.

• 55:51Esther Perel?

  That you are flawed, you accept uh the things that are beautiful about you. And you begin to feel with I'm good enough. I mean, that's the essence. It's not I'm perfect. It's I'm good enough. Or I'm flawed and I make mistakes, but they don't thank me. I don't feel instantly massively embarrassed and ashamed about them. I'm able to look at them and just say, okay, I'll do better next time. Uh I'll do it differently next time. I'll learn from this. Um it's that process that is self-acceptance. I mean, I remember making mistakes and then not sleeping for three weeks. At a time, you know, and churning and obsessing about it and replaying it in my head.

• 56:31Esther Perel?

  Today I do some of these mistakes and I just think, ah, okay, I know that mistake and uh I don't like it. It doesn't feel good. But it doesn't cripple me anymore in the same way. I think that's the level of self-acceptance. Self-acceptance is also knowing what you want. And and feeling okay about it, not uh not feeling like you have to continuously justify, explain, apologize. It's a it's what I call the healthy sense of entitlement, not a grandiose sense of entitlement. Self-acceptance is self-confidence. Self-acceptance is also the ability to live with your lack of confidence and your insecurities and your uncertainties. And to say, this is an area where I feel deeply insecure and it's part of who I am.

• 57:15Esther Perel?

  Um I have it all the time. Um all of this is self-acceptance. It's your ability to live with your sense of ambivalence. The things about yourself that you like and that you don't like. Uh the things that you feel really good about and the things that you are very troubled by. The ability to integrate those two, that's the ability to live with ambivalence about oneself. Um is an essential ingredient of self-acceptance. It's all of that. And for me, it's a process of maturation over life. Um this is not something you you just one day have. It grows on you slowly, physically, emotionally, in terms of lifestyle.

• 57:58Esther Perel?

  You know what you like, you accept it. You don't think, you don't force yourself anymore to be who you're not. Uh you're okay in your skin.

• 58:08Esther Perel?

  I often say, you know, if I had the confidence of today with the looks of them.

• 58:15Esther Perel?

  But when I was young, I didn't have the confidence.

• 58:19Esther Perel?

  It's an interesting thing that has a lot more to do with life experience than with any actual trainings that you're gonna have. Voila, that's my suggestions for self-acceptance. Goodbye, thank you very much, and I hope we talk again soon. And I hope that you can draw from some of these answers and feed on them for a while until the next meal, as we say. Bon appétit. Bye.

• 58:50Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 59:32Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.