Jennette McCurdy: Half His Age

Join Alex in the studio for an interview with Jennette McCurdy. Jennette opens up about her first relationship and its significant age gap that inspired her new novel, Half His Age. She also reflects on the role sex and power played in that dynamic, how her traumatic upbringing impacted her adult life, finding healing, and choosing to freeze her eggs. Enjoy! TW: eating disorders

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 0:45Alex Cooper?

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• 1:30Alex Cooper?

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• 2:13Speaker 01

  What is up Daddy Gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:22Alex Cooper?

  Jeanette McCurdy, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Thank you. Good to see you, Alex.

• 2:25Alex Cooper?

  Good to see you. You are officially my first guest of 2026.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  That's so cool.

• 2:31Alex Cooper?

  It's really good. I feel like we're kicking it off on a strong note. Are you someone that does like New Year's resolutions?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  I'm huge, like huge into New Year's resolutions and goals and I sort of map out my whole year. It never winds up happening the way that I plan it to.

• 2:45Alex Cooper?

  Classic.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  But I'm very into like the workbooks and the list making process.

• 2:50Alex Cooper?

  Like are you buying like a new notebook for it?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  I do Erin Condren planners. I do the Artist of Life workbook, both of them every year.

• 2:56Alex Cooper?

  You're like laminating things. You've got like a board up.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  My floral stickers. I like pin them in the corner. Yeah.

• 3:01Alex Cooper?

  Okay, wait, what are your New Year's resolutions?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  And I sort of, well, I do, I do goals rather than resolutions and I sort of break them down by season. This is gonna get really nerdy, really.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  And I take, my favorite part of the year is the week between Christmas and New Year's and I take that week to kind of evaluate my life and reflect on it and think where do I want things to go? And then I, I plan from there.

• 3:23Alex Cooper?

  Um, I love this and you're gonna make everyone, no, you know what? Cause it's funny. It's like by the time this is out, everyone's gonna be like, so I had this goal and I'm already a week in and I didn't fucking do it. God damn it. No, I'm someone that used to do it and now I've just completely stopped on like the concept of New Year's resolutions.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Really?

• 3:40Alex Cooper?

  But I do like your vibe, which I do a lot of like goals.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44Alex Cooper?

  Like I'm like career goals. I've got in my brain of like what I want my 2026 to look like for me and my company and my career. But I don't say it's a resolution.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  We have to talk about this.

• 3:53Alex Cooper?

  No.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Okay, because I feel, I have done the same thing for so many years where I go, like my main focus is, or my primary focus is career. My secondary is sort of relationship. What are my goals at these two areas? The rest of like the pie chart of life goes by the wayside. Who cares?

• 4:06Alex Cooper?

  Doesn't matter.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Health, whatever, whoever, we'll figure it out. But career is the thing that's always driven me and just as of this year, I've started thinking, you know, because I've reached so many milestones that I wanted to and I'm feeling the success that I wanted to for so long. There's something about that that has. Cause me to want to maybe reframe my life a little bit and wonder what else can I

• 4:26Alex Cooper?

  Do for you?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Juice from this and do for myself. Exactly.

• 4:29Alex Cooper?

  Oh my God, you're like, wait, should I take care of myself this year instead of maybe like completely focusing on work? Like what a concept.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Wait, is there more than achievement?

• 4:37Alex Cooper?

  That is so relatable. So maybe actually, yeah, that's a good way to think about it this year. Make sure that your bucket is not all career.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Right?

• 4:44Alex Cooper?

  Or not all one thing.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  It's just so, I don't know. I feel like it's such an easy thing to do because it's, I put so much of my worth in that and identity in that. So I want to try to divvy up the worth a little bit more.

• 4:54Alex Cooper?

  I love that we're talking about this. Meanwhile, I'm like, you have a new book coming out. We're like, you haven't stopped working. No. Okay. First of all, we need to talk about, you are the bestselling author of I'm Glad My Mom Died.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:05Alex Cooper?

  Now you have a new novel coming out, Half His Age. Congratulations.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:11Alex Cooper?

  How are you feeling?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  I'm so excited. I'm so proud of this book and I think this is, I think because I've, I've left my, kind of my heart and soul on the line with this. I do feel like that's what's motivated me to go, okay, maybe, maybe I take a step back. Maybe I take a breather and, and, and reevaluate things. But I think that's because I've left it all on the table. Exactly.

• 5:33Alex Cooper?

  Um, your memoir sold three million copies and now it is being turned into a television show. What has it been like working on that project?

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Um, it's been interesting. It's been complicated. There are a lot of politics involved, which is not my forte. My favorite thing is to sort of be, it's really interesting because writing, for writing, you're really rewarded for being truthful. And, you know, I'm show running and creating, executive producing this thing and producing, you're kind of rewarded for not being truthful. So it's a lot of like, okay, how can we tell this person one thing, but kind of do another. And so it's, it's been, I won't lie. It's been challenging navigating the politics of it. And I feel much more connected to my books. Like I'm so, so much more excited about talking about Half His Age because.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  That's something that's 100% what I have chosen. That's 100% every decision that was made in the process of this is something that I believe in and something that I support and something that I love. It's not been, there's no games involved. There's no like chess match involved. It's just, hey, here's my heart. Take it or leave it.

• 6:37Alex Cooper?

  It's crazy because like, we both have an inside look into the film and TV industry, which I know a lot of people watching may not be fully privy to. And it's like,

• 6:46Speaker 01

  It's horrifying.

• 6:47Alex Cooper?

  It's literally horrifying. It's so crazy. Like, I was on a call the other night with my husband. We were talking about this one show and it's like, we were helping our friend and we're like managing directors and this and this. And we're like, oh my God, all of the optics and all of the egos and all the things. And it's like, not even about the project.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:03Alex Cooper?

  It's about like stroking one's ego and make it. And it's a dick sized competition. And it's like, there's so much that goes into it. So I can imagine that writing for you, it's like, you are writing about, and it's you in a room and it's all on you.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  It's freedom. It's truly freedom.

• 7:17Alex Cooper?

  It's freedom.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:18Alex Cooper?

  Okay. But before we move on from this TV show that's causing you stress, but it's gonna be great. Um, Jennifer Aniston is playing your mom in the show, right?

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's so crazy.

• 7:28Alex Cooper?

  Um.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  It's so wild.

• 7:29Alex Cooper?

  What conversations have the two of you had?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  She actually has, I don't want to speak for her, but um, I think she's said this publicly. So I hope she'd be comfortable with me sort of resharing, but she has a lot of, um, she relates to the material a lot. And so in that way, we've really, really connected. And I think it's kind of the only way to do this project is to be doing it with people who relate deeply to the material. Otherwise, it's a moot point. If somebody's just doing it for the wrong reasons, I think it really gets lost in a project like this. I think that can work for a lot of projects, but I think for something that comes from this personal of a place, it's, other people have to relate that deeply, or it just, you know, gets watered down.

• 8:04Alex Cooper?

  I can't wait to see it.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 8:06Alex Cooper?

  This new novel centers around a relationship with a very clear power and balance between a 17 year old and her high school teacher.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:16Alex Cooper?

  What made you want to explore this theme?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  You know, I'm really interested in themes of desire and power and the things that we desire being confused with some form of power. I think, you know, sex being the most prominent example. When I was younger, I really confused sexuality with power. When I first started developing and first started feeling, you know, attractive to men and started getting that kind of attention, I really believed that was power. And I really believe now, as a 33-year-old, it is not. And, um, and I think one of the biggest motivators was maybe anger, some anger I felt toward situations I'd been in in the past that, you know, sort of emulated some version of the dynamic that's in the book. And anger is a really useful

• 9:05Speaker 01

  emotion for me in writing. I find it to be kind of the place that I write what I think the most effective work from. And I didn't even realize it at the time. I thought, why is this the thing that's coming out? And then I'd try to check that part of my mind and just keep typing, keep typing. And then after looking back a few drafts later, a few drafts, I mean, it's been many, many drafts now, but a few drafts in, I realized, oh, I'm still really fucking angry about some of this. And this needed to come out in this way. And I think, I assume, a lot of women will feel really angry reading this, whether they've been in a significant age gap relationship, or just any kind of relationship where they haven't really had their needs met, where they've really clawed or embarrassed themselves to attempt to have their needs met. I think unfortunately, so many of us

• 9:50Speaker 01

  can relate. And I hope that in some way, if there's some anger kicked up for people, that it's useful in their processing of their own experiences.

• 9:59Alex Cooper?

  There's so much that I know my audience is going to be able to take from this. And I think it's important that before we almost get to that and your personal experience and what kind of inspired this novel, I do want to go back. And I want to talk about some of the ways that power and control showed up in your childhood, because obviously, those are the most formative years.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 10:22Alex Cooper?

  And talk about those experiences with your mother.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:25Alex Cooper?

  Um, and then fast forward, yes, and get to more like the relationships.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 10:29Alex Cooper?

  So are you down to go back?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:31Alex Cooper?

  We're going back to childhood.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Let's go back.

• 10:32Alex Cooper?

  Good old childhood.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Haven't spent enough time in childhood and therapy, so might as well.

• 10:35Alex Cooper?

  Perfect.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Do more.

• 10:36Alex Cooper?

  Let's just relive it. Um, okay. Your mom was diagnosed with cancer when you were really young, like two?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  I was two. I was two years old.

• 10:44Alex Cooper?

  Okay. How did this shape your family dynamic?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Wow, what a beautiful uncomfortable question that I appreciate.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Our whole family, the way I describe it is that it felt like it was a held breath and that it was like, okay, when's mom gonna die? It was stage four metastatic ductal carcinoma.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  And, you know, she had a mastectomy and she had bone marrow transplant, radiation chemotherapy. It was really, really dire. It was really serious. And me being at that age, it's really pretty pre-verbal. And I, I, I think that's really, I think that really influenced my life for a long time. I think feeling the weight of the gravity of, okay, this person's death is imminent. And obviously not being able to articulate any of that or put any words to it or understand it. It's just a lot of adults looking at you, a child with this grave, serious, oh, it's gonna be hard kind of look. So I think some of my earliest memories are of like church ladies with coiffed hair

• 11:46Speaker 01

  and casseroles standing in front of me with pity and looking really like, oh, you poor thing. And so I think that definitely did influence some of my initial narratives about the world and how it works and how scary it is and how, yeah, how scary it is. And that's, that's been a process to reframe those narratives and find new ones.

• 12:06Alex Cooper?

  How do you think that kind of taught you to prioritize your mom's wants and feelings over your own?

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Oof. I mean, I think that was maybe the most pivotal piece that caused me to do that. I felt like she could be gone at any moment. And I think when you're young, you don't necessarily know what you need, but you know, the person in charge can help you with that. And so I think it was a mode of survival that I was in for a long time of how, how can I do whatever I can to help keep my mom alive? Because if my mom's alive, then I'm safe.

• 12:43Alex Cooper?

  And how do you think your mom's sickness impacted the way that you thought you were allowed to just like feel about her as a whole? Like, could you ever be? Like, oh, I don't, oh, wait, well, she's sick, so I can't, like, were you ever able to feel like you could be annoyed or resentful or?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Wow, wow. You've gone deep. No, I think it's, I think it's both because of my mom's cancer and because I grew up Mormon, and I think those two things are really, they, they, they are in tandem with guilt. They're really sort of rooted in guilt. It's like, okay, there's, this person has cancer, she's dying, and you're Mormon, and you have to be nice, nice, nice, nice, nice. So it was really, I would feel such profound guilt if I even thought and annoyed thought or felt anything that was other than, oh, mommy's the greatest thing, that I think I would just stuff down that annoyance. Any resentment that was brewing, I would stuff it down. I, any anger, I would stuff it down. And it was just, okay, I'm allowed to feel these three emotions, and

• 13:41Speaker 01

  anything else is bad, so I can't feel that, and I'm gonna just keep stuffing it down until eventually, of course, it can't stay stuffed forever, and it came up.

• 13:49Alex Cooper?

  You were two when she got sick, so she went into remission, though. At some point, she became healthy?

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:56Alex Cooper?

  Was she in remission, and then she was healthy by when you were four?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:59Alex Cooper?

  But then when you're 10, this is still a topic of conversation. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, how long did this linger and play out?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, she went into remission within, I want to say like a year and a half, somewhere around there, but she really, in my eyes, utilized her cancer. You could say utilized, you could say weaponized, one's a little more judgmental, but I, I think either one's appropriate, honestly. She really did not let me, or I have three older brothers, or any of us, forget, you know, mommy had cancer, mommy could go at any minute, the cancer could come back at any minute. It was a constantly used phrase in the household, is mommy's cancer could come back at any minute. So it was kind of, we were living in a state of, okay, she's better, but not really, like, it's gonna come back at some point, and that's gonna take her, and that's gonna destroy our family. And so it was really just this tense, tense feeling in the household. I mean, eggshells feeling all the time.

• 15:07Alex Cooper?

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• 15:51Alex Cooper?

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• 16:33Alex Cooper?

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• 18:39Alex Cooper?

  I love being able to sell merch directly on all the Call Her Daddy channels. So everything is in one place for the daddy gang. So, ready to add entrepreneur to your list of accomplishments? Head to Shopify.com/daddy. That's Shopify.com/daddy. You obviously were a very successful child star and that was not something that you decided for yourself. Your mom made that choice for you. What do you think that she was trying to achieve by making you act at such a young age? And how old were you?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  I was six when she put me in it. I think she was trying to, if I like feel into what I think. I think she was trying to be seen, feel seen through me. I think she was living vicariously through me. I think she felt really, I guess I'll never know, but really what I, my gut instinct is that she saw it as an opportunity to feel seen because she never really did. She never felt she got the attention that she needed or her needs met or whatever. And so she thought this is an opportunity for that to happen.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  And I think at first it kind of did seem like it was, it was useful in that way for her. I think at first it did make her feel, when I would get recognized, I could just, her face would just light up, just blow into the hugest smile and she'd be so thrilled.

• 19:59Alex Cooper?

  But what type of pressure did that put on you as a child?

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Uh, a lot. So much.

• 20:05Alex Cooper?

  Did you recognize the pressure initially? Like, did it ever feel fun?

• 20:09Speaker 01

  No. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. No. Um, yeah, it was really a lot of pressure. You're asking questions people haven't asked before. So it's really interesting because I'm sort of like

• 20:22Speaker 01

  finding it as I go, you know, but it's

• 20:24Alex Cooper?

  Take your time.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Thank you. It, it, it really just, my life just felt like pressure for so long. And that kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier with like trying to find what are the other aspects of the pie chart of life? Because I think from such an early age, I was so programmed for achievement, success, that equals mom's happiness. Mom dies and then it's like, okay, but still achievement and success equal happiness. And then it's like, okay, now I've achieved things. What else is there? There have, there has to be other means of, of joy. And I know that there are and there, it just, it can't be the thing that I think you plant a flag in. But I think that's what I did from an early age was, okay, success equals mom's happiness, achievement equals mom's happiness. Let's achieve. Let's succeed. Let's do whatever it takes.

• 21:04Alex Cooper?

  Did you ever recognize when you were younger that you were the breadwinner of the family? Or was it kind of smoke and mirrors?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  I think I started to realize that around, around 13. 12 is when I started really, you know, making consistent money. I had booked a bunch of guest star roles that year and commercials and things that were bringing in more steady streams of income than beforehand where it had been kind of more sporadic. And that's when I remember, you know, I would overhear my parents' conversations and, okay, well, Jeanette can cover that. We can get this and we'll, and that'll be fine. And because she got this print PCS commercial. So it, it, it did, I think there was an added layer of kind of pressure at that point of, okay. So I need to kind of take care of my family and this is the way to do that. This is, this will be helpful.

• 21:48Alex Cooper?

  Looking back, how do you think the financial success that you were having impacted the power dynamic with your mother?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Hmm. I wish it had impacted it. Like, I wish I was just a little, like, diva rolling around.

• 22:02Alex Cooper?

  Like, sexy.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Mommy, give me my latte. You know, like, just saying what I wanted and what I needed. Instead, I feel like I was really just kind of a, everybody says this, so I'm wary of saying it, but it was, I do feel it's truth. I was kind of a chronic people pleaser and trying to, like, so consumed with being polite and saying the right thing and saying, you know, the appropriate thing and the thing that the person needs to feel okay about themselves. And so that was kind of, that was my, my mode of operating. My primary mode of operating was how can I just make this other person feel comfortable? Meanwhile, I was a nervous wreck, uncomfortable ball of stress, um, for so, so, so long.

• 22:44Alex Cooper?

  You mentioned that you, it was never fun. You're like, no, oh my God. You like, almost laughed. You're like, oh my God, no. Acting was never fun. I was always stressed. I was always like, oh my God, I've got to go and do this to make my mom happy. Were you ever able to articulate that to her? Like, hey, Mom, I'm not loving this?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah, there's one memory that comes to mind. And also, I will say, you know, there was an aspect of, I did feel I was good at it at a certain point. I wasn't initially, like, I really was very stiff in my body and really, um, like, I just couldn't access the thing that I feel like makes for good acting, just that leading off of instinct and impulse and just kind of being free. I couldn't access that for a long time. Once I started being able to access that, I did feel good at it, which was helpful. It was nice to feel good at something. I think that's just universal, right? It feels good to be like, okay, I'm good at this thing. But, um, but no, there was one time when I, I had tried to bring it up to my mom. It's like, I really, I don't want to act anymore. I was in the car. Uh, we were in our old Ford Windstar on the 101 and she really instantly went into

• 23:44Speaker 01

  that kind of the mood switch that she was really, really common to her where it was, what? No, you're gonna break mommy's heart. What? No, you're so good. This is our chance. This is our chance. This is our family's chance. And it's, I mean, it's hysterics. It's that, but it's like tears pouring down and she screaming like really, really hysterical response. And so as a kid, I think it's impossible not to program that as, okay, don't do that again. Don't ever say that again. That's not an option. That's not okay.

• 24:09Alex Cooper?

  But that's also programming of speaking up for yourself as a child. You were essentially taught, don't do that.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, exactly. This is, this is, this is the thing. This is the thing. This is the theme of my life is how can I find opportunities to speak up for myself, to voice my opinions, to, you know, even if it means somebody doesn't like me, even if it means it's hurt somebody's feelings, how can I be authentic in myself? Because so much of my childhood and adolescence was rooted in being inauthentic to please other people.

• 24:37Alex Cooper?

  And your primary caregiver is essentially manipulating the situation in front of your eyes where she's becoming the victim. She's becoming this poor, poor person because if you don't keep doing this, then mommy's gonna be so upset and it's never that she can actually take the role.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  It's like, aren't you 45?

• 24:52Alex Cooper?

  Right. Okay. So there was an extreme amount of pressure being put on you and then you were essentially losing your voice because the time that you did go to be like, hey, can we turn off for a second and me not be the actress?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:03Alex Cooper?

  And me go to my mom, she's essentially saying, I'm not having it. Keep, keep, keep it moving.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  I didn't feel like she wanted, and I know, and it's, I know she was trying her best and, and it also makes me sad that that was her best. Right? It really makes me sad. I know she had a lot of trauma growing up. I know she was in a really difficult position. I, I sympathize with that, but also work on yourself a little bit. Like, come on, you got four kids. See them a little bit. Maybe, maybe try seeing them. What would that look like, Deb? Um, but I didn't really feel that she did that. I felt that was, it was just kind of, you know, if, if I'm being a character, then it's, oh my God, you're Josie and you're so good at being Josie. You're so good at being this character. But it wasn't, what's going on with Jeanette? Are you okay? Seemed like you were dealing with a lot of pressure. How can I help?

• 25:48Alex Cooper?

  Okay, four kids though, did you ever get resentful of your other siblings? Because I know you've said that you were the main focus, obviously of your mother.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, there was a lot of pressure on me and then on my oldest brother Marcus and then my two middle brothers Dustin and Scott did, for whatever reason, did not have the same standards, did not have the same um, goalposts that my mom just didn't have that for them. They could play video games hours every day and that was fine by her. I don't know why she sort of chose Marcus and myself. Um, and I think at a certain point I did feel, I did start feeling some resentment. Um, I certain, I really don't anymore. Um, but you know, as a, as a teenager, as a kid and a teenager, it was hard to see, well, why, why are the standards so different from them? And I'm sure they felt it toward me because it's like, why is mom giving Jeanette so much attention? Why is she doing all this for her? She doesn't, I'm sure some of their video game playing was some kind of act of rebellion because

• 26:41Speaker 01

  well, she doesn't care about us. She's taking her to CSI auditions, Law and Order SVU auditions, like she's letting us play Donkey Kong Country.

• 26:50Alex Cooper?

  Oh my God. And meanwhile,

• 26:51Speaker 01

  007.

• 26:52Alex Cooper?

  And you're like, I'd rather be playing Donkey Kong and you go to the CSI thing. But it's like, that's also just like creating such a triangulating situation where you're, she's dividing all of you. So like you're resentful of your siblings somehow. Really they could be your allies. But there's such a triangulation that you're like, I can't even turn to you because I'm resentful of you. But then you're like, wait, no. Now you can see you can have commonality with them and you can like now not be resentful, but in the moment it's a little too strategic.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And I've, I've really tried, I've, I've, I've begged them to tell me like, please tell me everything. How uncomfortable was that for you? How frustrating was it for you? And, and they're just, they're so kind. They, they, they don't, they don't go there, but I, I'm open if sometime they do, I'd love to hear. I really would. Cause I'm sure there's a lot of uncomfortable stuff in there for them somewhere or, or maybe not, maybe they're, you know, maybe not, but I would imagine there, there, there is.

• 27:39Alex Cooper?

  You have talked about and written, um, about some of the extreme codependency tactics that your mom used growing up, like not allowing you to shower by yourself, um, making you share a diary with her. You couldn't have your own. You had to share it with her like.

• 27:58Alex Cooper?

  How did that impact your sense of identity and more importantly, freedom?

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Hmm. I didn't feel I had either, I guess. Um, I really didn't feel I had either. Writing has been such a profound source of identity for me. It's been the place where I have found myself and

• 28:17Speaker 01

  and, and learned about myself and explored myself and I, I don't, I can't imagine what it would have been like if I didn't, um, if I didn't have writing, I feel like it would just be kind of a floundering existence of like, who am I without her and what, you know, it would just be very, very confusing.

• 28:34Alex Cooper?

  You had your mom even start to control your body and what you ate. Um, how did she initially start to explain these intense dieting strategies to you?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  This is where it gets, this is where it gets really complex, right? And it's so, um, specific and anecdotal and whatever, but I, because she'd had breast cancer when I was so little, I one day wake up and I feel like a lump in my right breast, right? I'm like, oh my God, I have cancer. I'm dying. That's my thought. So I go to my mom and I say, oh no, I have a lump, not realizing that's breast tissue developing. I'm, I was 11 years old at the time. It happens. Um, and she instantly kind of, there was no moment of, oh, you know, you're just, you're developing and this is normal and we'll get you a training bra and we'll whatever. And this is the process.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  It was just, oh, oh my God, we gotta get you on a diet plan, kind of thing, you know? And so it was then we would team up together. Um, and count our calories together every day. And I'm smiling because it's like, it felt, I remember how it felt fun for me at the time. It felt like a, a form of connecting with my mom at the time. Oh, we can write down everything that we eat. And we had two bites of this shrimp scampi lean cuisine and like, you know, just whatever the little things were that we ate that day. And then we'd compare our notes and then she would advise me on the next day and what we could do and how we could streamline a little bit more, cut back a little bit more. Her thought being, you know, if you develop early, that's more likely that you'll get cancer. I think that's one of her things, that she was really, really scared of me getting cancer.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Fair, right? And then I think the other thing is she really just did not want me to grow up. I think me growing up represented to her differentiation of the two of us. And I think that was very, very uncomfortable for her. Very uncomfortable for her. The, the idea that, oh, Jeanette's a different person from me. Because that means she can't live vicariously through me anymore, right? If I'm a different person, I have my own wants, my own priorities, my own goals, aspirations, and she can't sort of intercept that anymore. And I think that was really, really threatening to her. So I think puberty was really threatening to her.

• 30:44Alex Cooper?

  And therefore she doubled down on the control.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 30:47Alex Cooper?

  So through, you know, using this almost as a bonding moment.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:52Alex Cooper?

  How do you think, do you think your dynamic shifted in terms of you actually got closer through the eating disorder?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 31:01Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I, I think, I mean, I had been so close with her for so long, or I thought that I was. I thought I was the close that really is. I thought I was genuinely intimate with her. Only years later did I realize it was completely not that. It was not that. But, uh, but the eating disorder stuff really, really bonded us in a way that was like, this is our thing. We're in this together. It was very secretive. We're not doing it in front of the whole family. We're not comparing notes of what we ate today and counting our calories together and tracking things and planning out meals the next day in front of anybody else. It's after everybody falls asleep and then we do it in the kitchen. Or we do it in, on the couch and we sit there and and if nobody else is home, we figure that out together. So it was this really kind of secret bond that I think fueled the, the disorder thinking in such a significant way because it was that thing that we had together.

• 31:43Alex Cooper?

  Together.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Alex Cooper?

  Control and suppression of anger are tied to developing an eating disorder. How did those two states of being relate to your mother?

• 31:59Speaker 01

  I'm thinking, I don't know why I'm like, I'm like thinking of anger. I'm thinking of suppressing anger. It's, it's such a theme in my life. I think it's something that's so important to feel

• 32:09Speaker 01

  fully and be able to stand with yourself in. And it's been, that's the one, that's the one that I really was like, ooh, that's a bad one. So we can't go near that. Um, what was the question?

• 32:20Alex Cooper?

  Did you feel her anger ever?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, she would chase my dad around the house with a steak knife. Like, there were outbursts frequently. There were mood swings constantly, outbursts frequently, daily, I would say, you know, our neighbor Bud would like peer his head over the fence and say he was gonna call social services and we need to do something about this. And it was, it was really kind of public knowledge at a certain point where she couldn't hide it anymore. It was, okay, there's a lot of anger here. But I was just scared of her anger. And I think being so scared of her anger is what made me really unable to process my own, see my own in any way. And I think, I also think this is, I don't want to speak for my brothers, but I do sense this theme where like, we all have this thing where we're polite and we're, you know, yes, of course. And, oh, my God, no, I would never. And like, really trying not to offend people.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  But I kind of want nothing more than my brothers to just be like, I'm fucking angry. Like, I just want to see that in them because I, I know how helpful it's been for me and I hope to just continue exploring anger.

• 33:18Alex Cooper?

  Well, you never had any other option other than to be proper and perfect.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:22Alex Cooper?

  And so then, again, that then creates even more anger where children should be able to have a moment where they have a tantrum and they lash out and they're angry and they're upset. And then they are consoled and they're held and they're listened to and they voice their feelings. And then their parent is supposed to be like, I hear you. Let's make sure this gets done and happens for you.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:44Alex Cooper?

  And for you, you're like, how can I make sure mom is okay and mom doesn't have a temper tantrum?

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:51Alex Cooper?

  And mom is, and so you've never been able to be like, what is Jeanette want?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:55Alex Cooper?

  Ever.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yes. And I think, you know, what the memoir made me realize is how unfortunately common that is. I mean, that's the biggest thing that people tell me when they come up to me is that they had that same experience with their parent. And there's, you know, they couldn't vocalize their own needs. They couldn't stand to themselves. They couldn't feel their own emotions.

• 34:10Alex Cooper?

  Because of the power imbalance.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 34:12Alex Cooper?

  How are you gonna tell your mother?

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 34:15Alex Cooper?

  Six, seven, you're gonna stand up to your mother, 10, 13?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Well, actually, I'm feeling some resentment toward you.

• 34:19Alex Cooper?

  Yep. It's not even a, no.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:22Alex Cooper?

  Um, you said that you didn't know what anorexia was until you overheard your mom talking about it with your doctor.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:29Alex Cooper?

  When do you think it finally started to really sink in that your mother was actively not only enabling, but also encouraging an eating disorder?

• 34:38Speaker 01

  I think, I mean, in that moment, when I heard her speaking with the doctor, it was when I first started. Piecing things together of, okay, at that point, we'd really been in the trenches of cataloging everything we wrote, restricting calories, really monitoring, weighing me all the time. She'd measure my thighs. All of these behaviors had been in play for a while. And then hearing my doctor speaking with her, I didn't know, you know, I was, I guess I, I don't know, I was maybe 11 or 12, maybe at that point. And so I didn't know exactly what was going on, but I, I had a feeling that gut instinct, something was wrong. And I shoved that gut instinct down. And I said, okay, there's no place for that because mom would never do that to me. Right? Mom wouldn't, that would not, come on, she's my mom or whatever. Give her the benefit of the doubt. And I just kept giving her the benefit of

• 35:21Speaker 01

  the doubt at the expense of my own self-trust, uh, for, for a long time, for a long time.

• 35:27Alex Cooper?

  Um, I know that you've been eating disorder free for years.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yay, yeah.

• 35:31Alex Cooper?

  And you said on your podcast that you can now finally accept and love your appearance. Can you talk about how you were able to get to that point?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, my, my, the therapist I saw specifically for eating disorders was really instrumental in the process. His name was Jamie Farquhar. He was in Toronto. I was, I was working on a thing at the time and saw him and he did a mixture of, he worked with me with, um, you, you, using DBT and schema-based therapies. And I think the modalities are really specific because I think something like CBT, I'm like a therapy nerd, right? But like CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy is so much talking that for a person like me who I'm already in, like, I'm in my head enough. We don't need to spend, we are good. We don't need to spend any more time up there. So DBT really helped me to kind of unravel my thought process and assess it in a way that was more scientific and clear cut. And

• 36:20Speaker 01

  then schema-based therapy was more the feeling kind of sense of things and understanding the root of the traumas to then unpack from there. And I think those two modalities were really, really, really pivotal. I don't know if it, I would have had the same results from any other kinds of, like equine therapy, like what, like petting a horse or whatever people do. Like, I don't know if that's gonna do it for me or finger painting my trauma not gonna work for me. CBT, I don't think would have been as effective, but those two modalities were really, really effective. I suggest them for anyone, anybody, you know, anyone who's struggling with it. I think, I think there's a lot of promise in those two modalities.

• 36:52Alex Cooper?

  What was the biggest challenge that you had to overcome in your recovery process?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Uh, there was this moment early on where Jamie had encouraged me to see, he said, "In what ways is your eating disorder helping you?" And I was shocked. I was, "What are you talking about? Like, I'm sitting here to try to get over this thing. I don't want to do, have this anymore. I don't want to be throwing up fucking eight times a day. I'm tired of this. I'm exhausted. I don't, what do you mean? What good is it bringing you?" He goes, "Well, you have to accept that it's bringing you something good in order to move through it and find something that can bring you at least something as effective, if not more, preferably more, so that you can replace this with that new thing." And so really recognizing its value

• 37:38Speaker 01

  was this odd kind of process of going, "Okay, I have to really accept that this thing was a positive for me in certain ways and really helped me survive in certain ways." And it felt really counterintuitive, but I, but I think it was very helpful to the process.

• 37:53Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Isn't that wild?

• 37:55Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  I think it was my first realization of the gray areas of life. I'm such a like, I tend to be such a black and white thinker and I like to compartmentalize in that way because it makes things simpler, right? It makes, okay, this is the villains and the victims. This is the good and the bad. This is whatever. And I can put it in these two buckets. But that was the beginning of realizing, oh, life is a gray area. Like, it's not so clear cut. It's not so simple. And trying to make it that way is actually pretty unhelpful because you're going to do the pendulum swing instead of finding that balance somewhere in the middle.

• 38:22Alex Cooper?

  Um, you also wrote about and have talked about that the first time you went to therapy, you quit because you couldn't handle the thought of your mom being abusive when you started to get underneath all of it. What do you remember about that first session?

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Feeling like my body was on fire when that was even kind of suggested, you know, you know, your, your, your mother is abusive. This is, you know, she kind of laid it out for me. And I just felt instantly like I have to run. It was that fight or flight instinct. I can't do this anymore. This is not, I can't go near this. I, I couldn't face it. And it was quite, you know, a while before I was able to reconsider it and face it again.

• 39:00Alex Cooper?

  Where do you stand today with how you feel about your mom?

• 39:06Speaker 01

  I'm able to just miss her sometimes, which is something that I will take full credit for, you know, I think

• 39:17Speaker 01

  she she left me with a lot of shit to to kind of parse through. And the nail in the coffin being when I realized that when I found out from my who I thought was my dad that he was not in fact my dad and that was came a year and a half after her death. And so that was the kind of piece of information that I needed to go, okay, let me consider that maybe this person didn't have my best interest at heart all the time because she couldn't because she wasn't capable of that. And there was so much anger initially, there was so much frustration, so much hurt and pain, but really just masked with with deep, deep, deep anger. And I I really don't feel angry at her anymore. And I think that's because of the work I've done. And also, if I'm being totally candid, I think because because the book was successful, like,

• 40:02Speaker 01

  I don't know if it had just gone like I I I cringe saying that, but it's also true where it's like if the book had petered out and whatever, like, would I be sitting here being like, I'm happy with where I'm at.

• 40:12Alex Cooper?

  It's all it's like almost you got the closure that you deserved from all the pain and you were able to pour into that book, everything in you with regard to your mother. But then I can't help but think like, you finding out that the father that you thought was your biological father, your entire life wasn't, but she was dead. So you couldn't even ask her these questions like,

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:32Alex Cooper?

  Another form of resentment of like, are you fucking kidding?

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Why did she not say that when she she knew she was right? This wasn't a sudden thing. It's not like she died in a car accident, didn't have an opportunity. She knew for years. She knew for years when I was two. I get why you don't tell your children then. She knew again when I was 18 and my siblings were all three, five and nine years older than I was. So we were at that age where we could have. It would have been uncomfortable. It would have been painful, of course.

• 40:54Alex Cooper?

  But you would have gotten the answers.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. I would have gotten the answers. I would have gotten some closure. And honestly, I would have respected her more like, say the fucking truth. It's I think it's I think it's really been helpful, though, for my life in that way that it's really. Led me to recognize what a value truth is.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  My, my senses are up for, for any, anything that's bullshit. And I can't fucking stomach it. And it's, I'm at this place now, I'm like, I don't care. I'm not gonna say the thing I'm supposed to say. I'm not gonna say, oh, I'm so grateful for whatever. Like starry eyed fucking idiot. Like, you know, it's, it's worth it to be honest. And I'm hopeful that that helps somebody who needs to hear it and, and needs to find that path of truth themselves.

• 41:34Alex Cooper?

  It's also so sad, but symbolic of on her way out. She couldn't grant you this one last thing that would actually really be quite helpful for you and who you are and your development and your story, because it's your life too. And for her to take that, um, I do think it kind of wraps back to like, yes, we're looking for truth within people, but half the time, like you can't rely on anyone in terms of to be a good person with integrity and be honest. And so sometimes you have to stop looking for the truth and just know your truth and keep it moving.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Do you feel like you can rely on people? Or they're like,

• 42:10Alex Cooper?

  I have a lot of people I've like learned that I can rely on, but I think, yeah, in life, I've had like a lot of ones where I'm like,

• 42:19Alex Cooper?

  wait, like you want to shake someone and be like, this is not true. This is not happening. And, and you can drive yourself down the barrel of like, I must get them to tell me what, and it's like, why am I making this so much harder on myself? Leave, just leave. Right?

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 42:38Alex Cooper?

  Like, and would you even believe them if they said it's the truth?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  God, yes, yes.

• 42:59Alex Cooper?

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• 44:28Alex Cooper?

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• 45:13Alex Cooper?

  That's better H E L P dot com slash daddy. Okay, power and control, as we've been discussing these themes, obviously, and they are a huge conversation and theme in your new book, Half His Age. Can you, I know we kind of talked about it early, Britt, can you just kind of set the scene for my listeners of like what this novel is about?

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, the main event of the novel is a high school, a senior in high schools' sexual relationship with a creative writing teacher. But to me, in a way, it's kind of, I guess, similar to, I'm glad my mom, that's sort of the, the, the, the main event, the big noisy event. But underneath, it's really about desire and loneliness and why do we desire things that might not be good for us? And why do we so desperately paw at the things that we desire, even if we know deep down they're not good for us? Why do we still pursue them so relentlessly, so exhaustively at the expense of oftentimes our own self-esteem, our own self-worth? Um, that's sort of the deeper.

• 46:14Alex Cooper?

  Every girl can be like, yes, yes, and, um, no, it's really relatable. And it's scary and it's uncomfortable and it's, um, I've had versions of this in my life and I know you, when you were 18, your first relationship was with a man in his mid 30s. How did your personal experience inspire the book?

• 46:38Speaker 01

  I want to hear about yours as well. I'm, I'm really curious, but, um, you know, I think I, I, I don't know how to not write from a deeply personal place. I was really excited to write fiction. I thought, oh my God, like this is, and I completely want to keep writing fiction. That's my, my really biggest takeaway from writing Half His Age. But I also can't help but write from that place because that's the thing, like I mentioned earlier, sort of the anger, that if there are those deep, deep painful feelings, writing is my way to closure for those feelings, is my way to closure for past experiences. Um, and I think my way for connection with other people who are kind of seeking a similar closure in some way. But I didn't even realize how angry I still was about that. I thought I was, I thought it was done. I thought it was good. I thought I didn't really consider that.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I didn't, I didn't think of him ever, this person I was in a relationship with at all. Like he wasn't on my mind, right?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  And then I'm writing this book and it was only several drafts in where I looked back and I said, why, why this? Why now? And it was, oh, because I have so much anger left about this thing because there's so much left to process about this thing, because I have to find closure on this stage of, of my life through this.

• 47:45Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:47Alex Cooper?

  Well, it's so hard because when you're that young, it feels like you're just in it. Like there is kind of no processing.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 47:55Alex Cooper?

  And then you get out of it and you kind of need to really, really remove yourself to a certain degree to actually have any wherewithal to look back and unbiasedly look at yourself and be like, what happened there? And you can actually look at your younger self as like your older sister of your younger self, if that makes sense.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  It totally does. I'm curious. So you feel like there, did you feel like there were like, for me, I feel like there were micro moments of processing or micro moments of like, hmm, something's not adding up or something's not quite right. Did you feel that?

• 48:24Alex Cooper?

  Yes. And I, I think I like still haven't fully processed it. Like I think through my show or whatever, I'll like tell stories and even sometimes I think I romanticize it. And so it's still like a little like.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Say more. What do you, what are the ways that you romanticize?

• 48:36Alex Cooper?

  I think that when I was, so I was 18 and he was like 33.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:42Alex Cooper?

  I was 19. He was 33 or 34.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:46Alex Cooper?

  Um, weird. That's weird. That's weird.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Can you imagine now being with, oh creepy. It's so creepy.

• 48:52Alex Cooper?

  Imagine me being with a 19 year old? Like, no, that's a great way to put it. When they have, when they are older than you, it doesn't matter what their career, there is a power in balance.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:05Alex Cooper?

  And so there is something enticing about it. There's something mature about it. There's something kind of elusive about it that you're like, oh, this is going to make me, it's all like, it kind of helps you fuel your ego at such a weird susceptible time to like, I don't know who I am. And so you kind of like migrate into their world and you feel like, oh my gosh, they're helping me find my identity. When really then when you have the actual capacity, when you hit that age to look back and be like, oh my God, in your 30s, I shouldn't even be talking to an 18 year old. Um, I think it, it. It's confusing because you want to believe that you're like smart and you

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Mature.

• 49:45Alex Cooper?

  Mature.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 49:46Alex Cooper?

  Which they tell you, which we're gonna get to. Yeah, it's complicated.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:51Alex Cooper?

  It's very complicated. So I, I, I have a lot of empathy for women that are listening and we're gonna get into this conversation that I acknowledge there's probably potentially some still romanticization that you can be romanticization that you can be doing to that previous relationship if you had an older person in your life. But also, let's start to unpack the other side to it.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm, my mind just went to also like those moments where I would piece together that something was wrong, but and I'm so, I feel shame in saying this, but I remember that, you know, there was this point when he was introduced me to his friends and he would take me to kind of barbecues and I would meet the friends and their wives and the friends would be, the guy friends would be, you know, hey, like to all smiles, whatever. And the wives would be like, mm-hmm. Hi, nice to meet you. What's your name? Okay, Jeanette. Yeah, great. And I thought like, are they being mean to me? And now I say, oh no, they fucking hated this guy's guts because they know shit. They knew shit then that I didn't know.

• 50:45Alex Cooper?

  And they're looking at this man like-

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Going, what a fucking loser.

• 50:49Alex Cooper?

  Another younger one here today?

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:51Alex Cooper?

  How young is she this time?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:52Alex Cooper?

  And it's like, and you took it personally?

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:54Alex Cooper?

  Because you didn't even fucking know the conversation at hand was like, you didn't even know what it was. You didn't even know what they were thinking.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I'm just saying, oh my God, they were being protective. They were being helpful. They knew so much more than I knew. If only I had sat and talked with one of them instead of splitting a vegan hot dog with, I almost said his name.

• 51:12Alex Cooper?

  Can I ask, like, how did you guys meet? You met through?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Through work.

• 51:15Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  There's nowhere to meet anybody else. All I did was work.

• 51:17Alex Cooper?

  You met at work?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  No, yeah, yeah.

• 51:18Alex Cooper?

  So you are a young actor at the time. Were you 17 when you met him? 16?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  I wa- I think I was 18 by the time he started working on the show. I think. I'm not sure about that. It's possible I was younger, but I was at least eight. I was most likely 18.

• 51:32Alex Cooper?

  And how did this relationship start?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Um, a lot of like hanging out on set, a lot of hanging around the writers. We would hang out in the writers room after work. He would show me movies that he thought I would like, like Dazed and Confused, which I did not like, but I pretended to like. He would play me music that he liked, which I did not like, but I pretended to like.

• 51:54Alex Cooper?

  It's also like, why do they all have terrible taste? They have such a bad taste. Or, or Jeanette, pause. Maybe it's because they're thirty fucking whatever and you're eighteen, so there's no way you're gonna have the same taste. Yeah. Maybe when you get to that age, you actually would like that movie or that song, but how are you at seventeen, eighteen? I still don't like it. You're like, actually fuck that shit, fuck that shit. But you know what I mean? Half the time you're like, they're showing you shit, you're like, who? Yes, yes. What? Yeah. And everyone else in the room that's that age is probably knows what that is. Yeah. Because they're of the same decade. Yeah, yes, yes, exactly. Okay, so he's, you guys start hanging out.

• 52:35Alex Cooper?

  And then how does it like progress to a relationship?

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Um, he comes over, I don't, the feelings part of it, like us saying our feelings, I don't remember the sort of nature of that, but I remember him coming over really drunk one night to my apartment. At this point, I've moved out of my mom's place, I'm very new, like also red flags all over. I've been living away from my mom for maybe two months and I'm like, great, okay, a relationship, that'll be great. Um, and he comes over and he has beer stains on his shirt and he's bumbling around. And I, at this point in my life, I've never had a sip of alcohol, so I don't understand how drunk he is. Like now I go, okay, he was drunk off his ass, but I didn't know, did you drink one drink and that's how drunk you are? How drunk is one drink? How drunk is ten drinks? I had no frame of reference. So he just comes over really drunk and we like make out and it's a lot of dry humping.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  And it's that for months. And I tell him, you know, at that point, I was still very, I was, I was no longer going to church, but I was still kind of tied to my Mormon roots and didn't want sex before marriage and didn't feel ready for that. And I certainly was not, uh, in terms of maturity. And so he, he and I just made out a lot and, and kind of, you know, dry humped a lot. Very high school.

• 53:48Alex Cooper?

  What do you remember about, how you felt about the age gap?

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Thinking that I was mature, thinking that I was so smart that this could happen. And also, I hadn't really felt a deep connection with anybody my age at that point yet. I had felt one connection with a friend who, a female friend who, who I still love to this day, but she was, you know, seven years older than me, so not, not, not nearly the age gap that it was between he and I. But um, I remember thinking like, oh yeah, there's just something about me that's a little different, like, I'm special, like, that's what it felt like for me. I'm special, I can connect with older people. Younger people aren't on my wavelength, like, please.

• 54:25Alex Cooper?

  And how did he talk about it and justify it?

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Like that, like that, like fucking that. It was, you know, you're so mature, I can't talk to anyone this way, I can't believe how smart you are, like, are you kidding me? I was such an idiot, I'm so embarrassed. Also, how humiliating that he thought that was smart, or even used it as being smart as a manipulation tactic, because how stupid of him.

• 54:46Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. Um, in the book, the teacher manipulates his student by saying things like, you're so mature for your age, um, which I am so happy that now, in the conversation online and socially, like, I do believe everyone knows that is a red flag. Maybe, again, when you're in it, it may not feel like a red flag, but I think socially that concept has been spread around enough where people are like, got it, if a man is calling a woman fucking mature for her age, please pause for five seconds and someone protects that young woman.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Yes. I think young people are a lot savvier than at that point, a lot, a lot more competent.

• 55:26Alex Cooper?

  Which you hope is because-

• 55:27Speaker 01

  A lot more mature, now it's sounding like I'm doing the-

• 55:28Alex Cooper?

  Oh my god. No, but I think it's also because of this kind of stuff, right? People are finally feeling able that can talk.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:34Alex Cooper?

  Women actually have a place where we can talk about this and we're not being silent and we're not being made to feel like we're making things up in our head and you're being dramatic.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Dramatic, yeah, totally, totally, totally, totally.

• 55:43Alex Cooper?

  What other similarities did your relationship with this older man kind of share with the one that you write about in the novel?

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Ooh, what similarities? I think-

• 55:56Speaker 01

  I think there's this element that both Mr. Corgi gives to the protagonist Waldo and that the person I was in a relationship gave to me, which is this, that feeling of specialist, that feeling of that it was, that it was ultimately my choice, that it was ultimately up to me, that ultimately I was the one in charge. And I think if you feel really powerless, you'll take that bait. You know, you'll take that and you'll go, okay, I really want that feeling of power, even though my gut kind of knows this isn't that. I'll take what you're saying and I'll try to run with it and I'll try to make it into some semblance of power. If you're that desperate for it, you will take the bait. And I think I did, and I think Waldo does as well.

• 56:34Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. You just obviously referenced that you were a virgin when you met him and you were wanting to wait for marriage. How did that impact the way that sex?

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 56:47Alex Cooper?

  Played a role in this relationship?

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Okay. This begs for a story. Um, he, okay. So we had a plan. He had a girlfriend. Did I say this? No, I did not. He had a girlfriend. Okay. Um, felt a lot of guilt and shame about that for a long time.

• 57:05Alex Cooper?

  He had a girlfriend while you were seeing him?

• 57:07Speaker 01

  While I was seeing him, yes. While, while the dry hump make out sessions were happening, he had a girlfriend that he lived with.

• 57:12Alex Cooper?

  How, that he lived with?

• 57:13Speaker 01

  That he lived with.

• 57:14Alex Cooper?

  So where were you guys hanging out?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  My apartment.

• 57:17Alex Cooper?

  And how did he explain the girlfriend to you?

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Uh, that, you know, he's in a relationship and he, oh, man, I can't believe, okay, yeah, it was, it was tricky because it was initially positioned to me as sort of like, he's not, he's, I'm not gonna leave her. I'm not gonna leave her, but I want this, which is, I mean, come on, right? I'm not gonna leave, but I want to pursue this with you. So it's like, don't get your hopes up. I can have my cake and eat it too, but you, you can't. You're gonna not have any cake, but I get to have my cake and eat it too. And, um, this went on for, I think we started. Like the physical relationship began in, in, in maybe August. And by October, November, I was starting to feel like I can't do this anymore. Like it's too difficult to want something this bad to feel this at the disposal of someone else's kind of whims and availabilities.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  And it's these half hour pockets here and there. And like, I just have to be at his every beck and call. And then when he calls and I'll go, whatever. And it was just exhausting. It was exhausting and I couldn't do it anymore. And then finally, once I say that, suddenly it's, I'm going to leave my girlfriend. I need to be with you. I'm going to leave my girlfriend, which what great messaging to send to an 18 year old. It's like the whole, the whole process was just so twisted. Um, and so I think, okay, is he going to leave his girlfriend? I hope he's going to leave his girlfriend. I want to be with him, whatever. His plan is that it's, he's going to go home for Christmas break, which he actually does go home, but he's going to say that the trip is longer than it is. And he's actually going to be staying at his friend's place and I'm going to go stay with him at his friend's place. We're going to have a couple nights to ourself, which I didn't realize then, of course I realize

• 58:48Speaker 01

  now was like the trial period saying, okay, does this actually work? Can I, do I actually have enough in common with an 18 year old to be with this person? Is that, what is this going to look like? Um, and so we spent those few days together. It went quote unquote, well, and he was going to stay firm on, on leaving his girlfriend. Around this time, my mom had been hospitalized for having, she'd had a seizure. She was hospitalized and then she got out of the hospital and was going to come stay with me at my apartment. But he was going to come stay with me at my apartment because he was breaking up with his fucking girlfriend. So I can't have my dying mother and my boyfriend she doesn't know about and would never approve of at my apartment at the same time, right? We have a dilemma on our hands.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  So I'm going, okay, what do I, how do I like treat my dead mother with some, my dying mother with some kind of respect and can I, how do I keep the place for her? And how do I do this thing? And he's saying, I shouldn't have broken up with her. It was the worst mistake of my life. Uh, this is, see, this is what I'm talking about. Like you can't, he's, he uses the, you can't meet my needs thing a lot. And so I go, okay, I'll get us a hotel room. I'll leave the apartment. I'll tell my mom I'm hanging out with my friend, which I did. And she was like, very suspicious, very, it didn't matter she was dying. She still had a mother's instinct. She was still like, something's not right about this. Who's, which friend? Who? How long? Um, so I ran us a room at the Sheraton Universal, right near Universal Studios. That was like my idea of like a good hotel.

• 1:00:08Alex Cooper?

  I also love that we're, um, we're not even acknowledging that. Why is the thirty whatever year old not getting the hotel room? Why does the thirty year whatever, what does he not have an apartment of his own? Did he, he asked, he shared it with the girlfriend, but like, why didn't he get the hotel?

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Thank you. Well, you know.

• 1:00:22Alex Cooper?

  Let the eighteen year old do it.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Let the eighteen year old do it. Also, I was like hopeful, maybe we can go on like Hogwarts, the Hogwarts ride it.

• 1:00:29Alex Cooper?

  He's like, what's Hogwarts? You're like, oh, right.

• 1:00:32Alex Cooper?

  Shit. You don't know what I like and I don't know what you like. Pretend. Oh my God.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Alex Cooper?

  Okay. So you're at the Sheraton.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  He's completely drunk again, doing the bumbling around thing that I didn't know what that was indication of. And we go into the hotel room and he asks me for a blowjob, which I don't, I don't know what that is because I was raised Mormon and because I was homeschooled and I didn't, I didn't have, I didn't fucking know. He explains to me what it is and I'm like, that sounds kind of weird. I'm nervous to do this. He's like, I'll guide you through it. I'll guide you through it, whatever. He does. And then he, he's like, I'm gonna come. And then it's squirts in my mouth. And I'm like, what was that? What was that? Something came out. I thought, did he pee in my mouth? What the fuck just happened? I did not know what cum was. He explains and then that was sort of, that was my entry, entry point into, you know, real, a real form of sexual activity. And it was, you know,

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  now it's funny, but at the time it was really uncomfortable and I didn't, I was, it was difficult to kind of regroup and figure out, well, what was that exactly? And.

• 1:01:31Alex Cooper?

  And this moment of, you know, this blowjob, like, was it not all under the guise of, I just left my girlfriend? So like.

• 1:01:45Alex Cooper?

  Now I'm with you. And was there any form of like pressure of like if I left this former person, what are you going to provide for me?

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. There were phrases like, you know, similar to, I have to know that my needs are going to be met. Like, this is something that I'm, I'm a blank year old man, mid 30s man, and this is something that I'm used to. This is something I have to know. I'm respectful of your, it was, it was very, I'm respectful of your boundary that you can't have sex before marriage, but I also have needs of my own. And I think that's something interesting to also explore is because it's not going to be this mustache, twirly villain kind of way of saying like, get on your knees, bitch. Like, nobody's saying that. But there are, there is a nuanced power dynamic at play and things that can be said in discreet ways that are, you know, now I would know to read between the lines. Now I would know how to have that kind of conversation with somebody at 18. I did not, I didn't, I didn't.

• 1:02:31Alex Cooper?

  And I don't think most 18 year olds know what to do because again, go back to the beginning of this relationship. It starts with you're feeling special.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:39Alex Cooper?

  And so when you're feeling so special, but you are the underdog, there's going to be moments where when every idiot is like, well, why didn't you just not do it? It's like, there's so much psychological warfare that you're going through in your head, trying to understand, like, how do I keep this thing going? Because it's making me feel so special. And it's like, giving you your sense of identity.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:02:59Alex Cooper?

  And then, yes, there's a moment where you're like, but they're the older ones. Like, this feels right. If they're telling me this is going to be okay and normal, like, I should trust this person, right? You're trusting of this person. And then it's like, to what extent are you like, wait, I'm fully getting taken advantage of here. Like, I'm 18. This is the person with their right mind and their fully formed frontal lobe has happened. Yours hasn't yet. There's a responsibility that they completely neglect in those situations.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Did you have any similar experiences to that? Or was it, were you, had you, what was your age gap relationship like? Had you had other relationships beforehand?

• 1:03:31Alex Cooper?

  I had had other relationships, but they were all very similar in age.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:35Alex Cooper?

  And I think with sex, for me, I felt like there was a performative element that I felt like. Um, it was always told to me and I kind of forget how he would like word it because like you said, it's not like fucking suck my dick bitch. It's very, it's very discreet, but I always knew there were other women. If I wasn't there that could like take my place. And so in that moment where you're not feeling like, I don't really wanna, I don't really wanna do this tonight, or I'm tired, I'm whatever. In the back of your head, you're like, well, if you don't like, guess what? Guess what he's gonna be able to do and you're gonna lose your spot. And so there's like a pressure you put on yourself, but it's not, you put it fully on yourself.

• 1:04:20Alex Cooper?

  It's because of the things they're telling you, but somehow they are not in the wrong and you're, you feel horrible. You feel like, well, I should do this, right? Like, why don't I wanna do this? And if I don't, then this is gonna happen. So, and it kind of all becomes a game within yourself.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:04:38Alex Cooper?

  And they're not even a factor somehow.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, I'm also, I'm also curious if you have this thing where I feel like sex or, you know, anything sort of physical intimacy, physical intimacy can be confused as it's,

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  it's almost like more of a turn on if they're not available. Like, it's uncomfortable to say that, right? But there's some element where it's like, I wouldn't, I would, things would happen in my body where I would feel the relationship is threatened, or I would feel he was pulling the rug out from under me. Okay, he's not as interested. Oh, he's gonna go to one of his other options, or he's gonna go back to his other girlfriend. There's all these other factors that if I would feel one of those at play, you know,

• 1:05:19Alex Cooper?

  Sex.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Just, yeah. If I'd really crave sex, I'd really want sex. It was, sex for me was a means of finding commitment, was a means, a misguided means of assuming I'd found commitment, a misguided means of assuming I'd found attachment, a misguided means of assuming I'd found safety. But the second that the two of us come, it's gone. It's fucking gone.

• 1:05:40Alex Cooper?

  Dude, that's so bleak. And it's so, no, it's so real. Cause I, I bet so many women are listening to this and it's like, saying it out loud is maybe rare to hear that statement that you just said, cause I don't think a lot of women have.

• 1:06:00Alex Cooper?

  The confidence maybe to admit it. And I really respect you for saying that.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:06:05Alex Cooper?

  Because I think a lot of women are gonna watch this and be like, yeah. I have had the same thing where you're like, in the moment, you're just like, I literally don't know what else to do other than physically give myself to this person.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:18Alex Cooper?

  And you can feel it in that moment. You're like, yes, yes, yes. And you're right. The minute it's over, you have never felt dirtier. You have never felt more worthless. And it was like a high to go, if anything, you go farther down low.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:33Alex Cooper?

  Cause you're like, how did I think that this was gonna solve anything? They're on their phone immediately after. They leave the room immediately after. And you're literally like, I did the most intimate thing I could give you. And I'm still nothing.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 1:06:49Alex Cooper?

  It's exhausting because what you eventually will like come to realize as all of us will have our moment in life where you're like, that is not how it, that is not what sex should be. Sex should not equate to power. But when you are in a power imbalance, of course, as a woman, you're thinking, this is something I have that I can give to the man, right?

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. I understand too, that this is a process that so many women have to experience on their own and that like here, if there, if there's somebody 21 watching, that it's, it's gonna be hard to relate to maybe the things you or I are saying, or they're, they're just in a different position. And I, I wish so badly that I could just have that not happen for women. Like, I love women so much. I think they're so much cooler than men. Like.

• 1:07:38Alex Cooper?

  No, you're right. It is like, I guess as I sit here, I'm trying to think of that, like 18 year old version of you or myself.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Alex Cooper?

  And.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  What could you say? What could you do?

• 1:07:47Alex Cooper?

  What could you do? Cause the way we're speaking right now may be too reflective.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:07:52Alex Cooper?

  And, and to meet yourself where you're at, you have to think about all the insecurities and all the instability and it would require such like a.

• 1:08:04Alex Cooper?

  I don't know, like, or is it you have to go through it? Because I was thinking for you, it's like, this is a very common thing for women. And then I feel like for you, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you had such, um, you had already kind of learned this game a little bit from your mother, where if you give her what she wants and what she needs, then you are going to avoid rejection and abandonment.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Oh, the trigger words, yes.

• 1:08:33Alex Cooper?

  Right, so then, this is kind of a similar thing, where it's like, if you give him what he wants sexually, you're gonna avoid that rejection, but it's fleeting.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:45Alex Cooper?

  So then, how, can you talk to me about how the sex continued to play a part of this dynamic for you with this relationship? Because like we're saying, you do it, and then it's kind of like, huh. So how, how much did you compromise your self-esteem and your self-worth in that relationship, and where did sex fall into that?

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  So I eventually did have sex with him. I, I disregarded my self-imposed rule of no sex before marriage, and that was definitely the right decision for me. I'm so glad that I did that. Um, but having sex with him was, there was this, the only way I can describe it is that there was an addictive component, where it was, that's the thing that I'm chasing, that's the thing that I'm, my nervous system is sort of hijacked in waiting for. And then when it happens, when it happens afterward, there's the crash, and then it just kind of ramps up again in anticipation for the next sexual encounter. And then once that tapered off, was really when the relationship tapered off. And I felt that with several relationships I was in, where it was really, they were really rooted in, in sex and sexual connection.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  And I think the sexual connection was actually a distraction from anything else, because I thought, well, we're having good sex, or we're having intense sex, or whatever, passionate sex, whatever it was, that I was confusing as a legitimate connection. But then sex always, I mean, it's going to taper off, it's going to fade, it's not going to have that charge that initially does. And then when that would happen, I'd go, oh. I don't really know if I like what I'm left with here. I don't, I don't want to be doing this anymore.

• 1:10:15Alex Cooper?

  How did it ultimately end, the relationship?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Uh, my mom was dying and I, like, like weeks away from dying and I, I felt this kind of, this mode of almost invincibility of, okay, like it all has to go. I don't, I don't fucking care about, like, okay, what means anything? My mom's dying. I don't care about anything. Um, and then we did get to back together briefly after my mom died and then that ended, um, sort of quickly. So it was, it was one of those, we were over, but we kind of tried it again for a second.

• 1:10:43Alex Cooper?

  Um, having other partners and you kind of mentioned this pattern.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Alex Cooper?

  Um, of the emphasis on sex to avoid the other things going on. Are there any other patterns that you can kind of look back on in romantic relationships that you started to see in partners that you were with?

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, all unavailable. All completely unavailable, whether they had a girlfriend or a mental disorder or whatever, you know, there was something that was keeping, yeah, they were not available. And I think there was something in me that really relentlessly wanted to chase that and felt like, oh, if I can only make this unavailable man who is showing me by every measure of availability that he is not available, if only I could make him available, like, then I would, then I would matter. Then I would have some sense of self-worth. The more difficult, give me a challenge. Like I'm always up for a challenge. That's what I wanted.

• 1:11:35Alex Cooper?

  And because that's what you did your whole life with your mother?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly.

• 1:11:41Alex Cooper?

  You're not available. You're not emotionally there for me at all, but like, hopefully, hopefully you'll notice me if I tap dance hard enough and I sing loud enough, then like, mom, was that good? And she's like, huh? And it's almost like, again, that's the horrible part of a young woman where then sex becomes another thing you can throw at the problem. I hate to say it like that, but like, and it, it is so sacred.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:03Alex Cooper?

  And when you can learn to be like, no, I don't need to use this to get closer to someone.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:10Alex Cooper?

  It's so powerful, but maybe it is like we're saying, you kind of have to go through it as a woman. And some have to go through it in a much more heightened and intense capacity than others. Sometimes get away with like one bad relationship and they're like, okay, never again.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  They're good. They know.

• 1:12:25Alex Cooper?

  Love that for you guys.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Love them. You know, it's interesting because I, I, I'm thinking of, um, in Half His Age, I, I wanted to write it. It's, it's told through this girl Waldo's point of view, the entire book, and it's not.

• 1:12:38Alex Cooper?

  We don't have her perspective when she's 30, looking back on it going, ah, here's, here's what happened then, which I think can can be kind of a hallmark of of books that cover this subject matter is that there's this territory where you get to see the person with their wiser self, looking back in in hindsight. And I think as you and I were kind of realizing, oh, I think it's kind of something you have to go through. I think that was I literally am only piecing it together right now. But I think that was part of the motivation because I kept thinking, oh, should I have this section later on where she's older and she's piecing it together for real and what it actually meant. But it felt so important to not have that. It felt like I had, I literally could not, that was not an option for me. I had to stay in her experience. It felt so, so, so important. And I think it's because it's going to fall on deaf ears. It like, I don't want to, I don't want to

• 1:13:21Alex Cooper?

  be here sitting here preaching or teaching or trying to like, that's not, I don't have the answers. It's just the situation laid out very plainly and take from it what you will. Um, no, it's fuck, right? It's really frustrating because you're, as a woman who has gone through a lot in relationships and as have you, I agree, we're kind of sitting here being like, what's the advice? What's the takeaway? And I just feel like especially in the world that we live in today, like, yes, still, women are not considered equal to men in this country. That is a fact. And so it's like, the only way to like garner

• 1:14:05Alex Cooper?

  strength and to gain strength and to become more of yourself is unfortunately, as a woman to go through like extreme adversity. Mm hmm. Instead of just like, a lot of times being a man is just like, be the man, be the man. It's like, are you woman enough? Is constant like, is she woman enough? Is she feminine enough? And we're constantly battling as women, like, are we enough? Are we this? Are we that? And sometimes you have to go through all of that hell to then come out on the other side and be like, all right, I now I'm not going to take shit and I'm going to have confidence and I'm going to do this and that. But like, should we have to do that? Right. No. But is it the world that we live in? Unfortunately.

• 1:14:59Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Southern New Hampshire University. Daddy gang, let's get real, okay? We like to make our own rules. Southern New Hampshire University gets it. They let you learn what you want with over 200 career-focused programs, where you want with 100% online courses, and how you want with no set class times. Basically, you get to call the shots from day one. Visit SNHU.edu/callherdaddy to learn more. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches,

• 1:15:44Alex Cooper?

  Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. A little bit of a pivot here. I was thinking about, you know, I think a lot of people who understandably and unfortunately are constantly in survival mode for a good portion of their life can feel restless in secure dynamics. Have you ever found yourself feeling bored in healthy relationships?

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Only occasionally. And I try to sit with, I really do try to kind of sit with that boredom when I feel it cropping up and recognize what a, what a thing it is to be grateful for. You know, that it's not chaos, that there is something so sturdy. In my good moments, I'm able to do that. And in my not good moments, I'm like, you know, I gotta do something. I gotta whatever, but take a trip. Whatever it leads to is going to be something positive versus something self-destructive, which it had been for so long. But yeah, I've been in a relationship now for nine, nine years. We were friends, we've been friends for 11 years. We've been together for nine years and it's so healthy. And yeah, every, every year it truly gets better. But, but there are definitely pockets where I, you know, I, my, my nervous system will kind of.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Want to latch on to like where but where's the chaos was and I just have to sit with that and and you know journal through it whatever whatever tool works but um but it's the it's the the element of my life that I'm by far the most grateful for.

• 1:17:20Alex Cooper?

  I think I had this conversation recently with another guest about you know when you have abusive parents um sometimes it can complicate your feelings about becoming a parent one day yourself right it can either scare you or excite you and how has your childhood influenced your idea of motherhood?

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Um I don't want kids if that's what you're asking. Do you want kids?

• 1:17:48Alex Cooper?

  I do. I think when I was if I think if you asked me in my twenties, I really didn't think I did.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  That's interesting because most people know.

• 1:17:58Alex Cooper?

  I did not know.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  Most people know early on and they stick with that. Okay, okay, so you're twenties.

• 1:18:03Alex Cooper?

  I didn't think I wanted to get married and I didn't think I want to have kids. Now I got married and I I want kids.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  You want kids, okay.

• 1:18:07Alex Cooper?

  But it it really changed for me and I think it was just like a lot of self-work that I had to do on myself. Not saying that like you have to do self-work to want to have kids. It just for me in the place I was in my life, I couldn't even fathom it.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:17Alex Cooper?

  And then something changed and I think that's okay that I was just like, you know what? I actually think I do.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:23Alex Cooper?

  And so I don't know when and timeline, but like for right now, I'm like, this is something I definitely know I want and I wasn't sure of. Okay, so talk to me about.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  I'm so happy for you. That's really exciting. What an exciting trajectory.

• 1:18:34Alex Cooper?

  And okay, so talk to me about how you know you don't want kids.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Well, I will say I I I think I know I know I don't want kids at this point in my life. I'm also open to wanting kids at some point. So actually a couple of years or a couple of months ago in September, I went through the egg freezing process. Um and because I don't know if I'm going to change my mind. We've discussed it and neither of us really want kids, but we are also open to changing our minds and being in that process together. And so I didn't want to change my mind 10 years from now and it'd be too late. So I wanted to.

• 1:19:05Alex Cooper?

  How did you decide? Like, what were those conversations like to freeze your eggs? Because I know there's a lot of women that are always like, should I? Should I not? Like, if you don't mind sharing just kind of the process.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  No, I was so the first the first time I I looked into it, I went to a doctor in Beverly Hills, which was, I mean, already a red flag. But I sat down with her and she's like. Yeah, the best time to do this was two years ago, but like otherwise, right now, she starts like drawing this crap, which are always stresses me out. When somebody starts drawing a do, like when a doctor starts to, like, you should have been an artist if you want to be drawing.

• 1:19:32Alex Cooper?

  Please stop.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Tell me, give me the medication. What is it? She's like drawing things. She's like drawing these spears going up my vagina and like telling me how she's going to pull out that whatever. And I'm like, this is terrible. This seems awful. I don't want to do this. No, thank you. And then about a year and a half later, which was this, this past summer, I started thinking about it again. I, I went to a different doctor and they seemed much more comforting. I felt much safer in that environment. And I thought, okay, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for it. I thought it was gonna be terrible. I was warned that it can be really, really emotional, having these big mood swings. And it, for, for me, it was actually really, really not that. It was really straightforward and simple. And I was lucky in that a nurse could come to my house every night. I think it would have been a lot more stressful if I'd had to like,

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  formulate the things myself and put the powder in with the liquid and inject it. Like, that seems like a nightmare. Um, but having somebody kind of come and administer everything was, was really, really helpful. And the process was very simple and seemed effective.

• 1:20:27Alex Cooper?

  How would you describe, obviously, we've gone through so much of your life and your childhood into, you know, relationships and now you being able to write a novel about one of those young formative relationships. Now you're in this nine-year relationship. How would you describe this time in your life?

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  Hmm. Most definitely the most grateful I've ever been, like by far. Um, the most connected I've been.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  And

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  the most, the most authentic I've been able to be.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  And there's still so much, you know, road to cover and so, so. I hope I stay on this path. I hope I don't switch to a different path.

• 1:21:12Alex Cooper?

  Um, but something I read that you had talked about is you really struggled for a while to celebrate your success and to own any of your success, which is so relatable.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Right? It's like, if, I felt like it would make me rude, a bitch, diva, like whatever, to just be like, yeah, no, this is. This is where I belong. I've earned this. This is something that I worked really hard for. I deserve this. It felt like I had to. Oh, my God, I get this thing where, oh, it's still. I hate when it happens sometimes on Zooms, but I call it my like G. Willikers persona. Where it'll.

• 1:21:45Alex Cooper?

  What?

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  It comes out if somebody.

• 1:21:46Alex Cooper?

  That word in so long. G. Willikers.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, you shouldn't. It's it's a good thing you haven't.

• 1:21:50Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  Since Leave It To Beaver episodes, but it really is this part of my personality that comes out if I'm like taken off guard in a Zoom meeting. If somebody. I'm thinking of one, maybe like six months ago where somebody said like, how do you feel, Jeanette? And I just wasn't expecting it. At the end of the, it was like the closer of the Zoom. Like, we'd all heard. Whatever kind of mediocre news and it's a Zoom that should have been an email that should have been a whatever text. So we're going through the motions and they're like, how, how did you feel? And I'm just like, I'm, I'm just so hap- I'm just so happy to be here with all of you amazing people. I'm just so grateful. Like, I completely reverted to this fucking, it's the Mormon homeschool seven year old. Just, I'm just happy to be here. I'm just grateful. No, no, like.

• 1:22:24Alex Cooper?

  Right. And you're like.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Literally. And then you replay it afterward and I'm going, I wish I would have just been like, that's kind of mediocre news, but we'll all be fine. Like, we're smart people. We'll figure this shit out. It's kind of bullshit. Don't really want to be doing this as a Zoom. I like half of you. Half of you, I hate you. Bye. Then click off. Half of you wish I hadn't agreed to work with you. Bye.

• 1:22:43Alex Cooper?

  Dude, you're literally like, and thank you. I'm grateful. And then you end the Zoom and you're literally like.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And I think that that creates that thing where it's like this discordance inside when it's wide. And then I'm, then what happened is I'm beating myself up after the fact. Of course, I'm not, I don't wish that I'd said, oh, I hate half of you, but I do wish that I had said something.

• 1:22:59Alex Cooper?

  A little bit more authentic.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Oh, I'm just don't happen to be here. It's not authentic. It's not true. I earned my seat at the table.

• 1:23:07Alex Cooper?

  But it's like you're, we're so conditioned to be that way because the minute if I, I have said this so many times, if I'm in a meeting with my husband and he's like, yeah, that's not good enough. I want to be like. Yeah, that's not good enough. Instead, I'm like.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Um, we can progress in a way.

• 1:23:21Alex Cooper?

  And I'm like, why can't I just say it like that? Cause they'll be like, she's a fucking cunt.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:25Alex Cooper?

  And I'm like, and so now, oh, I sat with Shonda Rhimes and she was like, be the bitch.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:23:31Alex Cooper?

  The bitch. And I was like, I'm taking that, you know, that's, I'm taking that into 2026.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:35Alex Cooper?

  And, and half the time it's like, be the bitch. Oh, wait, no, just like, say what you're feeling.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:40Alex Cooper?

  And most of the time that means you're not being a bitch.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:42Alex Cooper?

  You're just being honest.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:23:44Alex Cooper?

  And then it's on people to receive that information. If they take you being a bitch from that, then that's on them.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:23:50Alex Cooper?

  Oh, my God. Um, okay.

• 1:23:54Alex Cooper?

  We're almost done.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:23:56Alex Cooper?

  Are you having fun?

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:23:58Alex Cooper?

  I forgot that we were filming for a second. I'm like, okay, we're back. Um, this has been really

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  nice.

• 1:24:03Alex Cooper?

  I know, we're like we're like sitting here just talking about like life's like we're like theorizing about life as women and we're like, oh, wait, yes. Okay, we're still recording a podcast. Um, so overall, what do you think you're most proud of in your life and your career at this point?

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  In my life and career, um, life, I think that easily goes to overcoming an eating disorder. I think that was the hardest thing I can imagine doing. And I've, I've done it and I, I think it's so important to say, they always say to say, you know, you're always in recovery and it's always, I think that's really negative. I think that's really unhelpful. I think saying, hey, look, I haven't counted a calorie, tracked anything that I've eaten, binged, purged, restricted, nothing in years is a, is a message worth sharing and something that I think a lot of people I hope can benefit from and something that I know my past self could have benefited from. And then I'm, I'm, I'd say I'm proudest of this book in terms of, in terms of career. I, I love this book. I, I, I put every part of myself into it, blood, sweat, tears, my heart and soul is in it.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  And I, I hope and think that really comes through.

• 1:25:09Alex Cooper?

  So can you talk to me more also about the writing process of half his age? Like, where did you begin? And what was the vision when you first started writing to then what it netted out to actually be?

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, weirdly, I had the, the first idea for this book. It's so strange to me now. Um, when I was 24, I was taking a solo trip to Japan and I was on a Shinkansen, a bullet train. And at this point I had, I had quit acting like a year prior and I had just been writing every day, getting nowhere, writing plays and short films and screenplays and whatever. I had not written any books and I knew, I, I thought, oh, it's going to be a student teacher relationship and it has to be a book that has to be the format that it comes in.

• 1:25:50Alex Cooper?

  And fiction.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:51Alex Cooper?

  Which you hadn't done.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Hadn't done, hadn't, I literally hadn't written, written any book, nothing, like didn't, didn't even consider, I didn't, hadn't considered that. And yet I knew in that moment, and I remember doing a bit of journaling about it and feeling like, okay, when the time is right, this thing's going to come through and I just have to follow it. And then, you know, whatever many years, seven years later, it kind of came through in a very. Palpable way. I was writing something else and I couldn't, it's like this demanded to be written. And I thought, okay, I'll take a couple of days off that other thing and then this will wear itself out. And then I just wound up, wound up writing, writing it very quickly, the first draft very quickly.

• 1:26:26Alex Cooper?

  When you go from writing a memoir to fiction, obviously that's like a complete 180, but obviously you like infused themes into the book about your life that, or like inspired by your life.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:39Alex Cooper?

  Um, how were you able to keep a distance with the characters, but also still infuse inspiration from your own life?

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  Hmm. That's such a good question. I feel like it's really a beautiful aspect of writing fiction is that you can kind of get away with a lot where it's, I can say point of view that maybe I'd be too scared to own in myself. Like this character Waldo is bolder than I am in certain ways. She's who I wish I could have been at 18 in so many ways. And so I can say those things that I, I can kind of retroactively go, oh, I, I wish I could have said that. And then I can say it this time around. I can do it this time around. She's, she's bolder and braver than I was. And I, I respect her character for it. And I think I've learned from the writing of her, how to kind of incorporate that more in my own life.

• 1:27:26Alex Cooper?

  This is still a personal piece of work.

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  It can't not be for me. It can't not be.

• 1:27:32Alex Cooper?

  Is there any part of you that's nervous or is it all release excitement? Like, what are you feeling?

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  I feel, I feel excitement. Am I nervous?

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  No, I feel, it really does feel like I'm just really excited for people. This has been, it's been in myself and my sort of orbit for so long. And it's something I've worked on. I've worked on for two years while working on other things, but it's been, it's been a long process and a, and a lot of just kind of me in the vacuum and the bubble of, of the writing dome, right? And now is the, is the portion where I get to kind of see the, see those effects and see it connect with people. And that's what makes it all feel worthwhile.

• 1:28:10Alex Cooper?

  Do you feel like the work that you have done in therapy allowed yourself to be ready to write this? Cause I know you mentioned like, it was kind of like in you weirdly where you're like, I wasn't planning it. And then I, it kept coming up for me. Like, do you think that's because of the therapy work that you had done? Or was it still just this unfinished business?

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  That's so interesting. I do think that for me.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Therapy and and self-work really kind of ties into career and achieving all of that. Like, it kind of feels like it has to start with something that I'm working on myself. I think I'm lucky in that way. I don't know if that, I think some people can achieve great things and be super successful and like deeply unhealthy and deeply in their trauma and deeply a disaster.

• 1:28:56Alex Cooper?

  Yes.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  You know, but for me, it really seems like it's one foot in front of the other and it has to, the first foot has to really be in in that therapy chair. And then I think everything else kind of trickles out after that.

• 1:29:06Alex Cooper?

  Okay, last question.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:08Alex Cooper?

  Um, you said-

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I just felt sad.

• 1:29:10Alex Cooper?

  I know, me too. No, we'll keep talking after this, don't worry.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:29:12Alex Cooper?

  Um, you said in an interview that the more uncomfortable something is to write, the more important it is to write. What types of conversations do you hope your new book will start?

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  I hope it sparks conversation, conversations around desire and power. Those are the two areas where I think there's so much to discuss. We've, I think, talked some of it through today, but I think it's just endless. Um, there are endless conversations to be had around those areas and,

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  and also loneliness. I think, I think there's a lot that's said about loneliness. And I think right now, despite being so plugged in as a culture so constantly, I think there's a real epidemic of loneliness. And I think, um, I think that's explored in the book, too.

• 1:30:00Alex Cooper?

  I'm so happy for you. Like, it's so obvious that writing has, you said, I mean, from a young age, like, you wanted to be a writer, but now to see you walking the walk and living it and and now coming out with your second book, like, it's so incredible to see you doing something you love so much that's also cathartic and is helping you, but also helping so many other people. Um, from, you know, your memoir, I I agree. It's like, there are so many people I sit across from that I go to dinners with, that I know personally, that are in my family, that have struggled so much with the parent-child dynamic.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Alex Cooper?

  And again, that's something that I don't think has been explored as much it is, it is being recently because of shame, right? Like, how dare you talk ill of family for the first, you know, just that at the surface? But then especially your mother. Um, that's a really complicated dynamic that you took on and you did it so well that I think allowed other people to probably be like, okay.

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  You know what? I can finally now start to also look inward and start to heal myself from that pain that I've experienced. And now this new book, I think there's something so prevalent and important and just honest about the themes that you've brought up that I think we hopefully will continue to explore. Again, I think we were both like in a good way, like, we don't know the answer. And a lot of times, that means that then this is just the beginning of the conversation. We don't know the answer. Why has this not been a bigger conversation? And thank you for saying all that. I do feel like my experience of life has so often been like, why is nobody saying this? Whether it is sitting on a Zoom

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  or sitting at a dinner table or sharing a holiday with a bunch of people. It's just like, why are we not talking about anything? Why are we? It just feels like I'm gonna fucking explode. And writing is the place where I can not explode, but explode in that way. You know, I'm not exploding in real life, but on the page and get it all out and hopefully connect in that way. It's, I think, the truest form of myself and the thing that I hope connects the most to people and I think does.

• 1:32:14Alex Cooper?

  Well, all the way back to the beginning of this episode, maybe that is something people will take from this is like 2026 is the year of say whatever the fuck you actually feel and stop putting on a front and stop pretending to be prim and proper in this or whatever you want, you think people want you to be and just be yourself and see how that goes for you this year. I'm gonna try it. Oh, fuck.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Are you scared?

• 1:32:39Alex Cooper?

  I'm excited. I think it's a great wake up call for all of us because I agree. I think we've been doing it too much. And I hope with your, I hope with your story, you felt like we dived in enough today where your message came across because I felt like it was such a powerful message. And like, I appreciate you trusting me with your story because it is a very vulnerable and honest one. So thank you for coming on.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  That's so nice. Thank you for having me.

• 1:33:05Alex Cooper?

  Thank you.

• 1:33:20Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ross. Fall is about finding pieces you love, making them your own and creating looks and spaces just right for the season. Whether you're updating a small apartment or a spacious home, drawn to timeless neutrals or bold seasonal touches, Ross makes it easy to imagine what's next and bring your fall vision to life. Ross makes fashion accessible to all with up to 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices on the brands you love. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Pandora Jewelry. Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry.

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• 1:34:48Alex Cooper?

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