The Secret Government Operation Faking Alien Abductions

Our American Alchemist this week is Jason Jorjani, philosopher, author, and UFO researcher. --------------------- You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! DOSE: Support your liver health with Dose! Get 35% off your first month of subscription at https://dosedaily.co/JESSE using code JESSE. KALSHI: Eligible new users can get $55 when they trade $25 on Kalshi using code JESSE at https://kalshi.com/r/Jesse CAPE: Protect your privacy on the cellular level with Cape at https://cape.co/americanalchemy. Use code ALCHEMY at checkout for 33% off your first 6 months. Grab your American Alchemy merchandise here! https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ --------------------- Returning for his third conversation with Jesse Michels, Jorjani explores the possibility that reality is a computational system controlled by competing intelligences, connecting Carl Jung's synchronicities, reincarnation, time travel, and ancient religious traditions to the UFO phenomenon. They examine alleged Nazi flying saucer programs, the shadowy World Commerce Corporation, MKUltra, and Andrija Puharich's research into psychic manipulation and suppressed Tesla technology. Along the way, Jesse and Jason clash over the nature of God, question whether the Roswell crash involved human technology, and consider whether the forces behind UFO secrecy are preparing for something far bigger than disclosure. Follow Jason on social media and check out his latest book: "Intelectronics: The Thought of Andrija Puharich" ➤ https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B01CGWWRKU Website ➤ https://jasonrezajorjani.com/ Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jasonrezajorjani/ X ➤ https://x.com/Jason_Jorjani Substack ➤ https://substack.com/@jasonrezajorjani YouTube (Incendiary Ideas) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMf21PmH0izn6K-m-RfJR_A Patreon ➤ https://www.patreon.com/JasonRezaJorjani -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction 4:33 The World Commerce Corporation 7:09 Magenta, Lebensborn and Antarctica 10:26 Nazi saucers, Wall Street and OSS 14:17 Skorzeny, Stephenson and Townsend Brown 17:18 The Kammler files 20:56 Saucer engineers, the wobble, DeWitt 24:17 Puharich: 90% ours, faked abductions 26:52 Intelectron and Bob Beckwith 28:34 After JFK: Jolly West and Ruby 30:43 Intelectronics and MKUltra's core 33:40 Barney Hill: "Looks like a Nazi" 34:38 Covert tech and missing scientists 38:44 Tesla's scalar waves and Lab Nine 41:11 Sponsors (Dose) 42:43 Back to the episode 43:07 Puharich traces the Soviet signal 44:44 Morgan, Astor and the Titanic 50:27 Soviet Tesla towers and the blackout 54:30 Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter manuscript 56:55 The fire and the space kids 1:02:55 Arson at Lab Nine 1:04:24 America's own Tesla towers 1:07:13 Bearden's Excalibur Briefing 1:09:21 Psychotronics and extended electrodynamics 1:13:30 Faraday cages and 11 Hz 1:15:32 Manchurian candidates and cognitive sovereignty 1:19:44 Donations, Corso and Roswell 1:22:28 Horten brothers and the Twining memo 1:25:24 UFOs and nuclear weapons 1:29:10 Why drop it on the Nazis? 1:31:37 MJ-12, Kissinger and H. A. K. 1:35:03 Disclosure under Trump 1:37:02 Sponsors (Kalshi) 1:38:55 Sponsors (Cape) 1:40:07 Back to the episode 1:40:19 The end game: a reset 1:42:47 Jung and synchronicity 1:47:55 Synchronicity's dopamine hit 1:50:06 Vopson, dark matter and data centers 1:59:51 Past lives: Wambach and Stevenson 2:03:08 Split souls and the psyche 2:08:27 Dark and broken timelines 2:10:28 Two kinds of intelligence 2:13:07 The trickster superintelligence 2:18:59 Is God an Archon construct? 2:22:33 Job, Jesus and Apollonius 2:28:31 Faith, witch hunts and psi 2:30:57 Rebellion and the rebel angels 2:35:23 Closing thoughts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Human history is nonlinear, and there are all these feedback loops and retrocausal effects going on. At some point, some group of people broke time.

• 0:41Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Jason Giorgiani. Round three. You're so encyclopedic in your knowledge of UFO history. I think you have a very clear worldview.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  These things aren't objects. There are some kind of unexplained anomalous phenomena that is plasmatic. And then it can turn into a UFO, but it can also turn from a UFO into a black helicopter. And what it looks like to me is two sources of the Close Encounter phenomenon. One is this archantic control system, but then, on the other hand, a superintelligence.

• 1:13Jesse Michels?

  Whoa. If there is some control system, why do they let certain things go? And why do they suppress other things?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  They take place when humanity is on the verge of figuring something out for itself.

• 1:25Jesse Michels?

  Townsend Brown was literally saying, every time I have a breakthrough, this group in the Bahamas, they kind of suck up the tech. They suck up the IP.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  When we look at Magenta in 1933, here's a craft that had a Nordic body in it and then promptly handed over to Nazi Germany for reverse engineering. So that looks an awful lot like a donation to me. In 1954, executives of aeronautical engineering companies were being quoted as saying they have solved anti-gravity, and then the whole thing goes dark.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  By the 1970s, Andrea Puharic had figured out Tesla technology, like really figured it out.

• 2:01Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Yes. The Tesla towers tune quantum potential and propagate thoughts telepathically into people's minds. They built them all underground. One in Alaska, one in South Africa. 1984, and now they're building a third one in Antarctica.

• 2:17Jesse Michels?

  It's wild because Puharic isn't some random guy. He was one of the earliest architects of MKUltra.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  And then here he is saying half the abductions are being faked by some entity within the United States power structure.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  90% of the sightings are all due to man-made spacecraft.

• 2:32Jesse Michels?

  He's on record faking an alien abduction with Yuri Yeller.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Puharic had used psychotronic machines to psychotronically manipulate people all over the place to carry out intelligence operations.

• 2:45Jesse Michels?

  Betty and Barney Hill's regression. The first thing that Barney says is, he looks like a Nazi.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  The evil face of that Nazi.

• 2:53Jesse Michels?

  I think it's both. I think some experiences are truly just transcendent and involve real beings. You can't explain them away through covert military technology.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  These overlords have always used certain elites as vices and proxies to implement their policies.

• 3:12Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, fascinating. I don't even know where to go from there, but...

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Well, there's a lot of places we could go.

• 3:44Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Jason Giorgiani. Round three. You are, I think it's only you and Eric Weinstein who's been on three times. And it's because you're the gift that keeps on giving. Every time we sit down, it just flows. And you know so much. You're so encyclopedic in your knowledge of UFO history. But I think you're one of the few people, and I always say this, along with Jacques Vallée and maybe a few others, who really do a lot of sense-making and analysis as to what we're seeing. It's not just data and stories that are impossible to make sense of. I think you have a very clear worldview. And at times, we disagree on that. But it's always extremely fun and generative to speak with you. So I'm grateful that you're here today. Thank you, Jason.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Well, it's especially a pleasure to be here with you because, I don't know, as you might recall, the first conversation we had, you were moving out to Austin. And so we weren't able to record in your old studio. We had to rent a studio. And then the second conversation was in LA, and we filmed in a restaurant. So this is the first time I've been graced with, you know, the Jesse Michaels abode.

• 4:51Jesse Michels?

  It's a slight, slight upgrade for sure. And yeah, just, you know, we're making progress. Trying to make moves. But no, it's great to have you. And I don't know, there's so much we can, we can talk about. But there's this really amazing content creator named Jason Samosa, and he cites your work. And he is, seems like unraveling the deep state at a faster rate than anybody. And he talks about this World Commerce Corporation, which seems to be this shell corporation that is transnational, that involves a lot of Nazis, actually, post-World War II.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  On the board, Donovan, Stephenson, Hambrus. You've got Dulles doing the legal counsel. There's a whole bunch of other high-powered UK people, loads of OSS people who are out of work. And there's also connections to organized crime, which we can talk about in a minute, and the Nazi underground too.

• 5:45Jesse Michels?

  And he thinks that, that when Tom DeLonge actually wrote this book, you know, Secret Machines, he talks about this Maynard Consortium, which is this international sort of corporation that controls the UFO issue. Ben Rich, who is the director of Lockheed Martin Skunk Works, he also talked about an international corporate board that controlled the UFO issue. And he kind of lamented the fact that they had more control than he did and that, you know, than American domestic powers did. And so do you think Jason is on to something? And what's up with the World Commerce Corporation?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  So, you know, on the margins of Deep Tech Week, we were having some late-night conversations. And this came up, and we went into this in some depth last night, actually. These overlords have always used certain elites as vices and proxies to implement their policies and to sort of work on the mundane nuts and bolts of managing the control system. And, you know, you see this going back to the Sumerian priest kings and the Brahmins of ancient India, but then all the way up into the modern era with, you know, the Raj in India that we were discussing earlier, the vices, local Indians,

• 7:00Speaker 01

  who helped the British effectively maintain colonial control over India. I interpret the World Commerce Corporation along those lines. In other words, it's a group of elites who were given access to the type of technology that the overlords had, which is something not incidentally you see in Hindu scriptures, where there are cases in which devas come down and they give certain Hindu kings control of like a couple of vimanas. And they're like, you know, you can only use this for this and that and whatever. And like, you know, don't get too arrogant. But like, here's a vamana for you to have, a donation, right?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  And so when we look at Magenta in 1933, here's a craft that, you know, according to some accounts, had a Nordic body in it and was recovered initially by fascist Italy and then promptly handed over to Nazi Germany for reverse engineering. Now, if you're some benevolent Nordic, right, from like the Pleiades, and your material has crashed there, right? And you know it's going to fall into the hands of the most totalitarian regime on the planet, who probably will figure out how it works because they've got the best physicists and engineers. Don't you think it might be a good idea to go retrieve that? And that it would be within your capacity to do so? So that looks an awful lot like a donation to me.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Also, it's a rather dark fact of history that one year after Magenta, the Nazis created Lebensborn. Lebensborn was the Nazi eugenics program to basically develop a Nordic-looking master race. Okay? You know, most Germans aren't Nordic-looking people. Like, that's more Scandinavian thing. But for some reason, the SS adopted this Nordic phenotype as its ideal, and they created this insane eugenics program where like, you know, SS officer, like SS officers were allowed to have sex freely with like Nordic, perfect-looking women, you know, who, you know, could sleep with as many SS officers as they wanted to produce as many, you know,

• 9:11Speaker 01

  beautiful blond-haired, blue-eyed children as possible, right? Who were put into these weird collective homes where, you know, lord knows what experiments were conducted on them and so forth. This all happens within a year of the recovery at Magenta. Also, within the same timeframe, the Germans established the Annerbe, which was tasked with investigating the origins of the Aryan race in Atlantis, or what they called Thula, which ultimately I think that they concluded was Antarctica. First, they looked at Iceland, they looked at Greenland. And then eventually, I think by the time they decided to field the Deutsche Antarctica Expedition in 1937, 38, they had realized that, you know, Thula, Ultima Thula, is Antarctica.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And Antarctica is essentially Atlantis. And so anyway, so you have this whole process take place. And then there are reports. That by 1944, at a facility outside Prague, and I think it was put there because, you know, the material was recovered by the Italians and the Italians also had competent scientists. And the Germans didn't want to insult the Italians by just taking all this material into Nazi Germany. So they set up a joint program with a few Italian engineers in a facility in a third-party country, namely Czechoslovakia and/or Greater Czechia in the Reich.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  And reports that by 1944, they had developed both this sort of zero-point energy

• 10:43Speaker 01

  propulsion device called the Glocka or the bell and a functional saucer airframe, which they were trying to marry together into a single operating system. Initially, the saucer airframe was a jet-powered craft. And then they were trying to like replace that jet-powered system with this electroggravitics system. And Alan Dulles

• 11:08Speaker 01

  actually went and observed the functioning of this craft at that facility in 1944, before the war was over. Alan Dulles and his brother, John Foster Dulles, were working with John Rockefeller and a German by the name of Schroeder at a company in New York called something like Rockefeller Schroeder and Co. And at that time, the Dulles brothers, through that company, were funding the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s, together with JP Morgan, also a major backer of Nazi Germany, and Ford and other elites. And so there was a contingent of American corporatists, mostly based out of New York City,

• 11:54Speaker 01

  who initially funded the rise of Nazi Germany. And then in 1945, conspired to retrieve the hardware that was produced by these Nazi programs, together with all the vital technical personnel,

• 12:13Speaker 01

  and transplant them either back to the United States or to places that they had, you know, within their sphere of control, like Argentina.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  And Jason Samosa, you know, gets good receipts on this transfer of intellect, capability and material, which involved elements of the OSS, like Wild Bill Donovan, right?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  A lot of people are under the impression that, you know, the OSS transformed immediately into the CIA after the war. That's not the case. There was an attempt to shut down the OSS because Americans don't want to have a permanent intelligence service like that. It was created for wartime for a specific purpose. And, you know, it's threatening to the US Constitution. So they tried to shut down the OSS. And then the head of the OSS, Wild Bill Donovan, takes his most important intelligence files and he brings them to a private office in what used to be the British Security Coordination at 635th Avenue, the International Building of Rockefeller Center.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  This is the building behind the colossal sculpture of Atlas. And that building, by the way, also, from their offices, which I believe were on the 35th floor, looks down onto the sculpture of Prometheus. So he moves all these files in there. And then in short order, Alan Dulles is working with him as a co-founder of this World Commerce Corporation. And it's in the British, the old British Security Coordination. So there's MI6 people involved too, people who, you know, wind up being, you know, part of the MI6 intelligence structure, including Ian Fleming, who goes on to write the Bond novels. And who I think fictionalized this World Commerce Corporation as Spectre in his Bond novels.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  This transnational crime syndicate mafia terroristic organization, right? And, you know, you have these like scar-faced villains in the Bond novels, which I think are references to real Nazis who were brought into this organization at a fundamental level, the most important of which was Otto Schezany. So Otto Schezany was the head of Special Operations and Psychological Warfare and the director of the most important commando raids during Nazi Germany. He's the guy who went and rescued Mussolini from the prison on the island of Ponza that the Allies had put him in toward the end of the war. And came back and, you know, got a medal from Hitler and so on and so forth. And he was Hitler's favorite commander.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  And Schezany, by 1955, one decade after the founding of the World Commerce Corporation, becomes the chairman of the corporation and is running this entity that controls 450 global subsidiaries. He's running this entity from out of a headquarters at Rockefeller Center in New York City.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  So I think this needs to be looked at in the context of what happened with reports of electroggravitics breakthroughs round about 1955, when Schezany took over the World Commerce Corporation. As you know, you talked about in previous, you know, episodes of your show, there were a flurry of articles in 1954 into 55 where executives of aeronautical engineering companies, what we would call aerospace today, were being quoted as saying they have solved electroggravitics or anti-gravity theoretically. And that all that's needed is funding for large-scale manufacture. And like the G-engines are going to be rolled off the assembly line imminently. And then the whole thing goes dark.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Well, is it really a coincidence that that happens at the same time Schezany is taking over the World Commerce Corporation? And it happens a decade after that breakthrough was made in Nazi Germany.

• 16:07Jesse Michels?

  Well, you can get even more specific, which is wild, that William Stevenson was working at that office at Rockefeller Center. He was Churchill's super spy. He was Ian Fleming's inspiration for James Bond. And he was in direct touch with Thomas Townsend Brown, who claimed to have this sort of electroggravitic breakthrough of novel propulsion. They were in close coordination, in fact, so much so that at William Stevenson's behest, Townsend Brown flew behind enemy lines in 1944 in Germany to interview some high-voltage scientists, because he was the only one with the expertise to do that. And there's a telegram between William Stevenson and Josephine, Townsend's wife,

• 16:50Jesse Michels?

  where he goes, you know, your husband is okay, he's been injured, but he's, he's fine. William Stevenson was also in touch with Charles Proteus Steinmetz, who was a GE engineer in Chenectiki, New York, who was interested in kind of extended models of electrodynamics and very, you know, similar Tesla Townsend Brown adjacent kind of, you know, exotic breakthrough physics. So, and then one more layer to this.

• 17:19Jesse Michels?

  Townsend Brown was literally saying, every time I have a breakthrough, this group in the Bahamas, this group of international industrialists. And he cites William Stevenson and he says Eldridge Reeves-Johnson, who's president of RCA Victor Machines Talking Company. They, they kind of suck up the tech, they suck up the IP. And then, and then the final layer to add to it is Robert Maxwell. You know, obviously, you know, Epstein sort of, you can call it his father-in-law, whatever. He was in charge of interrogating Nazi scientists after World War II. He was for the MI6. So you have to wonder, is there some sort of connection between William Stevenson and Robert Maxwell?

• 18:00Jesse Michels?

  And why was there such an interest specifically in these exotic science modalities?

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yes, and recently,

• 18:11Speaker 01

  there are some files that have emerged in reporting by a fellow named Sharp. His first name might be Christopher, but I might be misremembering it.

• 18:20Jesse Michels?

  Christopher Sharp.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Christopher Sharp, yes. So there's some files that have emerged that document the interrogation and American processing of Hans Kommler. Now, General Hans Kommler of the SS was the head of the Skoda Works. And he was also Wernher Von Braun's boss. Von Braun was a major who worked under General Kommler in the SS. Kommler was presumed dead for all these decades. Kommler was also, by the way, the architect of the concentration camps. So we're dealing with like the worst of the Nazis. Okay, he makes like Von Braun look like a Boy Scout.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  And Komler was presumed dead, but now we've got these files that show, no, actually, he got out of World War II alive and he was interrogated and processed by Americans. And he seems to have been brought in outside the paperclip framework, which was done for a number of other people as well, including Josef Mengele. I'm certain that Mengele was also brought in with CIA knowledge, but he was taken to Mexico because he was a little bit too hot to handle inside the continental United States. So Komler was running the UFO reverse engineering program after the Magenta crash. And he's brought in in 1945.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  So you think it's a coincidence that by 1955, when our own American companies make the same technological breakthrough, they're all told to shut up and either cooperate or drop this effort? No, it's because there's a deeper black project that's being run by Nazis in the national security state that's been established by then, or what we might call the deep state. And they already have control of this effort and they're making, let's say, the CEO of Martin Aircraft, to become eventually Lockheed Martin, play ball with them if they want to have access to an already invented and developed technology. Right? So I think that's what happened here.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  And, you know, the disturbing implication of that is that if this is in fact the case, we have to treat what has hitherto been called the legacy program as an intermediary obfuscating layer. So that the, so, you know, we have this-

• 20:43Jesse Michels?

  So you think it's human technology essentially? You think these UFOs are human technology that have their origin in Nazi Germany?

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Yes, but to go back to what we were saying earlier-

• 20:56Jesse Michels?

  But then you also believe-

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Magenta seems to be a donation.

• 20:59Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  And so it's as if, as in the case of the Raj, you know, and these various, you know, stories in ancient Indian epics where devas share vimanas with Rajas, with Hindu kings. It's as if a new elite of managers was forged, beginning in Nazi Germany and continuing through the World Commerce Corporation, in order to basically act as viceroy's for these overlords in the contemporary era.

• 21:28Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, very interesting. Well, I do think the Magenta crash, which was in 1933, I think that saucer actually made its way to the Surrattay bunker, which is outside of Rome. And then I think the Skoda Works work was very real. And there's Victor Schauburger, who was recruited to work under Hans Komler, had plans for a flying saucer that you can all look up and see today. And you have a quote from Rudolf Schreiber, who says, "We flew a flying saucer to 40,000 feet and it took a few seconds." There's a lot of documented, you know, Richard Mita, another engineer who had plans for a flying saucer. So there's a lot of documentation around the Nazi program as well. And then we were speaking about this at dinner the other day.

• 22:10Jesse Michels?

  So you have a lot of these people make their way to the United States, a lot of accounts of Richard Mita possibly working on the Avrocar project under a, actually, British aircraft, a guy named John Frost.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:24Jesse Michels?

  He also recruited this guy, Henry Kawanda, for which the Kawanda effect is named, which, you know, gives these flying saucers their sort of signature wobble that a lot of people see. There's even a quote from, you know, so Townsend Brown formed NCAP, which was, you know, the first civilian UFO research group. And he said, "There are UFOs that are ours and UFOs that are theirs." And this is in the 50s and he's telling his daughter this, and he says, "The ones that are ours have this sort of wobble."

• 22:49Speaker 05

  He told Linda to filter out the ones where they describe a motion like a fluttering leaf, "And those are ours," he said.

• 22:58Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, what does he mean by fluttering leaf?

• 23:01Speaker 05

  Wobble.

• 23:02Jesse Michels?

  And so, you know, that's, that's really interesting as well.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  And they crash.

• 23:06Jesse Michels?

  And they crash. And, you know, what's, what's fascinating is he is then funded by Agnir Bonson. Agnir Bonson is this air conditioning magnate, but he's kind of eccentric and, you know, very intelligent as well. He founds the Institute of Field Physics, which convenes some of the top physicists in the world. Um, you know, Reeler, Feynman, you know, Freeman Dyson, like name your top physicist at the time, Peter Bergman. And the, the main sort of physicist there convening everybody is Bryce DeWitt. He's also fascinated by anti-gravity and he, he really wants to figure it out and he funds Townsend Brown. And we now know, due to this Australian intelligence memo, that he was probably like a CIA cutout.

• 23:49Jesse Michels?

  He was probably working directly with the CIA. He then goes on to write a science fiction book called The Stars Are Too High about American top scientists and engineers collaborating with Nazi top scientists on man-made disc saucer UFO crafts and them faking an alien invasion in order to sort of, you know, have sort of psychological effects on, on the population at large. And then he dies in a bizarre plane crash and his family, I believe, thinks to this day that there was foul play and that this sort of telephone line, which was never supposed

• 24:33Jesse Michels?

  to be there, was put up, you know, at the, at the landing pad or whatever. I think, I don't know if it was takeoff or landing, but that the, the plane went right into it and it wasn't supposed to be there. So very fascinating, albeit loose threads, but it's very interesting and it corroborates what you're saying.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  You know what else corroborates it?

• 24:51Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 24:52Speaker 01

  So you cited that statement from Townsend Brown, already in the 1950s, to the effect that there are some that are man-made and they're ours, right? And that they wobble a little bit. By the 1970s, Andrea Puharic is claiming that, not, I mean, I don't know if he was exaggerating, but he certainly didn't sound like he was speculating. It sounded like he was speaking from inner program knowledge. He said, quote, "90% of UFOs that people have close encounters with are the US flying saucer fleet." And he said, "They're staging half of the abductions."

• 25:32Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  And he also said, "The technology originated in Nazi Germany and it was brought here together with all those Nazis."

• 25:40Jesse Michels?

  Is this a quote?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  This is a quote.

• 25:42Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. It's wild because Puharic isn't some random guy. He was one of the earliest architects of MKUltra. He had as deep of intelligence connections as, as one could get. He also, if anybody knew how to fake an alien abduction, it was Puharic. He's on record faking, you know, my good friend Greg Malatzi has been on the show. He has done an amazing documentary on Puharic that is going to be coming out called Mind Traveler. And it depicts basically Puharic faking an alien abduction with Yuri Yeller, where he like spikes his drink, doses him up with something, and then he ends up like miles away and he was, I think he gets thrown through a window or something, wakes up.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  A screen door.

• 26:22Jesse Michels?

  A screen door, there you go.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and thinks that he's been taken by aliens.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:26Speaker 05

  One day he says to me, Lukori, I want to hypnotize you. I want to go back and see where this power emanates from. And I agreed to be hypnotized. I cannot remember what happened while he hypnotized me.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  He probably used one of these TD machines that he developed. These are psychotronic machines that can propagate information into a person's brain using extremely low frequencies. And a combination of that together with drugs to make Yuri Yeller believe that he was basically teleported from Manhattan to Austin, which is a suburb of New York City, and threw Puharic a screen door into his living room. Um, and he did other things, like for example, um, so I'm, I'm writing a, I just finished a book about Puharic. I just did a whole, like, I don't know, the manuscript comes to something like 250 pages.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  I don't know what it'll look like when it's published as a book, but it's the first comprehensive philosophical study of, you know, the work of Puharic, spanning his entire career. And so one of the other cases like this is that, uh, there was this guy, Bob Beckwith, who was a, I guess you'd say, associate of Puharic, collaborator. And-

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Beckwith goes to get some dental work done. And the co-founder of Puharich's Corporation, the Intellektron Corporation, which was based in Midtown Manhattan, the co-founder of the corporation is a skilled dentist, Joseph Lawrence. And this Bob Beckwith goes to get some dental work done and all of a sudden he's having like alien abductions and hearing voices in his head. And he comes and grabs Puharich's collar and he's like, what the fuck did you do to me, man? Like, you people planted something in my mouth. And Puharich is like, no, it must be, it must be the nine. They must, they must be interested in you, you know?

• 28:25Jesse Michels?

  What year is this?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  This is in the 19, I think it's in the late 60s or early 70s.

• 28:32Jesse Michels?

  That is wild.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so there's more than one case indicating that Puharich knew how to fake an alien abduction. And then here he is saying half the abductions are being faked by the, some entity within the United States power structure.

• 28:46Jesse Michels?

  It was probably earlier than the late 60s, early 70s, right? Because I think Intellektron was, it was raided-

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Intellektron was founded in 1961.

• 28:53Jesse Michels?

  61, the year of Betty and Barney Hill?

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:57Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:59Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, because it was raided, right? During the JFK assassination, right after the JFK assassination?

• 29:06Speaker 01

  It wasn't a raid. Some, some men in black types came into the office and spoke to Puharich like in his back room. And the secretary noted that after they left, Puharich was deeply disturbed for the rest of the day. They didn't like take any, any information or anything from out of there. They weren't in how to talk with him.

• 29:26Jesse Michels?

  It's pretty insane that, that like, you know, now we know that a lot of this Manchurian candidate stuff that John Marx wrote about was, is very real. And we, you know, you even have, if you read Tom O'Neill's Chaos, documented interactions between Jolly West, who is, you know, one of the heads of MKUltra, you know, corresponding with Sidney Gottlieb, who was the, the grand architect of the entire program, meeting with Jack Ruby, who basically destroyed evidence by killing Lee Harvey Oswald, who was supposedly this lone gunman.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:58Jesse Michels?

  You know, in JFK's assassination. So we know their MKUltra ties to JFK's assassination. We don't know how deep they go, but we know at the very least, it involves obstructing evidence in the form of Jolly West interacting with Jack Ruby, who then goes crazy after they spend 24 hours off camera with each other in Jack Ruby's jail cell. And Jack Ruby, to that point, hadn't remembered killing Lee Harvey Oswald. And then after that, he has a psychotic break and Jolly West does a press conference outside the, the jail and says, Jack Ruby has had a psychotic break. So it's fast-

• 30:35Speaker 01

  I knew a guy who visited Jack Ruby in prison.

• 30:37Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:38Jesse Michels?

  What, tell me more.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Well, he had the impression that Ruby had been driven insane deliberately in prison.

• 30:46Jesse Michels?

  So there you go. So, and you have evidence at least there, but it's even wilder that you have another architect of MKUltra, in, in the case of, you know, Andre Puharich, who has a company called Intellektron, which is doing dental implants for mind control. And then his office gets raided right after the assassination. That's very strange.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I think he had something to do with the World Commerce Corporation.

• 31:13Jesse Michels?

  Did he?

• 31:14Speaker 01

  I, I think so.

• 31:14Jesse Michels?

  And what, what did he have to do with the World Commerce?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Another thing that Puharich said is, and look, before I wrote this whole book on Puharich, by the way, the title of the book is Intelectronics. Because Intellektron wasn't just the name of a corporation, it was the name of a whole concept that Puharich was developing as a, as a sort of more complex and self-conscious form of psychotronics. Okay, so I called the book Intelectronics. And I don't know if it, it probably will be out by the time this podcast is released or shortly thereafter. In any case, before I wrote that whole book, length study of Puharich, I wrote this essay called Projecting Prometheus, which deals with Puharich and MKUltra.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  And that's a subject I come back to in the book on Puharich. But in that essay, specifically, I talk about, you know, the origins of MKUltra and how it's always associated with Sidney Gottlieb and, and Ewan Cameron and, you know, these various doctors who used known techniques like LSD administration, electroshock therapy and so forth for behavior modification and engineering of dissociation, right? And the parapsychology aspect of MKUltra is never discussed. But in fact, if you dig into it, you realize that that was the core of the program.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And that probably Puharich was much more important than even Sidney Gottlieb.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  And what Puharich says, so Puharich was working at Edgewood Arsenal in, you know, 1950. He, he had been studying philosophy during World War II. And then when World War II broke out, he was like, well, you know, people are dying all over the place. I should do something more practical with my life than studying philosophy. But it shows the inclination. His inclination was to become a philosopher. And you can see this throughout his career, reemerging. And so he becomes a medical doctor and then he's recruited into the, you know, into the Army Special Medical Program at Edgewood Arsenal, where they're developing biological and chemical weapons, among other things.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  And around about that time, 1952, is when it's documented that the precursor of MKUltra, namely Bluebird, begins.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Puharich says that the reason he was brought in is because all these Nazis were doing these experiments. And the government needed to cultivate Americans to eventually replace the Nazis, who they had brought over from Germany, to do these mind control, you know, experiments and development of techniques and technologies and so forth. So the, the founding generation of, you know, Bluebird and Artichoke and MKUltra were the transplanted Nazis.

• 34:14Jesse Michels?

  It is, it is also just so fascinating that if you go to Betty and Barney Hill's regression, the first thing that Barney says is, he looks like a Nazi.

• 34:24Speaker 06

  And the evil face on the, he looks like a, they're on a Nazi.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  The evil face of that Nazi, he looks like a Nazi.

• 34:39Jesse Michels?

  He looks like a Nazi. It's so strange. And then you get into these kind of ontological questions of like, okay, so you have MKUltra, you have gravity manipulation, anti-gravity propulsion sort of research, you have directed energy, you have ways to explain away all these sort of transcendent sort of things. You know, all these UFO experiences and encounters and close encounters of the third kind. And then I always land on yes and, you know, I think it's, it's both. I think some experiences are truly just transcendent and involve, you know, real beings. And I don't think those are easily, you know, you can't explain them away through covert military technology, but what, what do you think?

• 35:20Speaker 01

  I agree with you entirely. It's both. But again, to go back to, to, you know, the point I was trying to make earlier, the more mundane, prosaic programs being run by elites seem to be on some level endorsed by the control system that's fielding the actual close encounters.

• 35:45Jesse Michels?

  That's what it feels like. A lot of these guys that get into really exotic science bump into a layer above them.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:52Jesse Michels?

  Like there's almost like science is being disseminated from a place of complete reality manipulation.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:02Jesse Michels?

  But like, it's like being drip fed or something. And that's where you get into this, some of the missing scientist stuff. And it's like, do I think there's been a statistical speed up of science suppression? I don't know. Do I think there's been science suppression over the last 100, 200 years? For sure, obviously. And then some of these cases in isolation, you know, I just had Michael Shermer on and he was like, there's nothing weird about the disappearance of General Neil McCaslin. I'm like, in isolation, that story is completely significant.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  No, I don't, it's just totally random.

• 36:31Jesse Michels?

  What do you mean? He, he, a gun was missing and, and his wife then-

• 36:36Speaker 01

  His wife said he was suffering- From depression for years.

• 36:38Jesse Michels?

  His wife also said the only explanation might be that an alien took took him on the mothership. She was joking. Joke about a missing husband a week later. That's weird.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Because of all the weird conspiracy theories around it. You were very generous with him.

• 36:50Jesse Michels?

  I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah, it was crazy. I was like, this guy was on, you know, yeah, it was probably too nice. You know, uh, he was in charge of the Special Access Program Oversight Committee is literally, uh, you know, in charge of over 2,000 Special Access Programs. And he's saying that it's it's the job of the local authorities to look into it? No, it's the job of the FBI. And every intel agency we have, it's all hands on deck. What are you talking about? It's insane. Um, cases like that, or Carl Grillmeyer, who was one of a few people with access to the Ver Ruben Observatory first access, which detects changes in, you know, the astronomical records. So if you think of James Webb is having, you know, uh,

• 37:34Jesse Michels?

  the strongest resolution within a narrow scope, Ver Ruben is the first to detect anything entering our solar system. And all of this stuff has to get screened by the DOD or now Department of War before, you know, ever being released to the public. And he gets, you know, uh, horrifically killed along with Nuno Larrero, who is probably foremost in the field for, uh, you know, uh, magnetic reconnection. So, uh, you know, nuclear fusion is this big holy grail, you know, you could make the earth way more sustainable and unlock all sorts of new technologies. But you have this magnetic, you have this leakage that occurs with these Tokamak, uh, you know, magnetic confinement,

• 38:18Jesse Michels?

  fusion abilities. And he was the person who was deepest on the actual confinement of, you know, the, the fusion in order to make it work. And he gets killed in such a, you know, bizarre sort of way. And it was by somebody who had held a longstanding grudge with him. But then if you think about these sort of, you know, Manchurian candidate possibilities, it's like anything's on the table. So what, yeah, what do you think about historical science suppression? Do you think? Why does, if there is some control system, why do they let certain things go? And why do they suppress other things?

• 38:52Speaker 01

  This is exactly where I wanted to go. So I think these donations are disempowering. I think that they take place when humanity is on the verge of figuring something out for itself. And they get ahead of that and they control the dissemination of it. So for example, if you look at the late 19th century into the early years of the 20th century, Nikola Tesla and probably others were developing what could have become an alternate physics paradigm from out of the extended Maxwell equations that were truncated by Heaviside and canonized in our physics textbooks.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  And this type of alternate physics involves concepts like scalar waves that propagate information and can release electromagnetic energy at a great distance, but without, um, transverse Hertzian waves being involved in that propagation. They propagate information for the distant release of electromagnetic energy in a kind of longitudinal wave that's similar to how a sound wave works, rather than, uh, you know, a transverse wave. And these waves can also go through the earth.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Because it seems like what they're reaching through before they, let's say you have two Tesla transmitting towers that are, you know, calibrated to converge on a distant target.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  They can apparently penetrate the earth because actually they appear to be reaching through something like what David Bohm conceptualized as the implicit order, a kind of subquantum matrix of pure scalar potential, a kind of informational matrix that can be coded and, and, and tuned with like extremely low frequencies. And so one of the things, the most fascinating things that I discovered in the course of researching Puharich for this book into electronics is that the reason his house was burned down, his house and, and lab in Austin, lab nine,

• 41:15Speaker 01

  was burned down, didn't have to do with his, albeit very controversial work with psychic children, the space kids, as he called them. It was because Puharich had figured out Tesla technology, like really figured it out.

• 41:29Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yes. And

• 41:31Jesse Michels?

  Where's the evidence for that? That's insane.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Okay. So let's get into this story a little bit.

• 41:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies. 18 plus.

• 42:03Jesse Michels?

  Before we dive into this wild episode, I want to give a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, Dose. Dose for your liver is a high-quality liquid supplement designed to support healthy liver function. It's super easy to incorporate into your routine. It's just a two ounce shot once a day. And it tastes like orange juice. As you know, I love nerding out and finding the best new health and wellness products. And it's surprisingly easy to overlook the biggest internal organ in your body, the liver. Your liver performs over 500 functions every single day. It plays a major role in how your body processes nutrients and supports digestion, energy and metabolism. What I appreciate most about Dose is that they actually have research behind it.

• 42:48Jesse Michels?

  Two double-blind placebo-controlled studies showing a positive impact on liver enzyme levels. Having research like that is something I really appreciate and find refreshing in the supplement space. And no pills you have to swallow or icky taste. Again, just a convenient daily little shot that tastes like tangy orange juice. Ready to give your liver the support it deserves? Head to dosedaily.co/jesse or enter Jesse to get 35% off your first subscription. Your body does so much for you, let's do something for it. That's dosedaily.co/jesse for 35% off your first month's subscription.

• 43:30Jesse Michels?

  Try it for three months and see how you feel. I want to thank Dose so much for sponsoring the show. Now back to today's episode.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Lab nine was burned down, didn't have to do with his, albeit very controversial work with psychic children, the space kids, as he called them. It was because Puharich had figured out Tesla technology, like really figured it out.

• 43:54Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Yes. And

• 43:56Jesse Michels?

  Where's the evidence for that? That's insane.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Okay. So let's get into this story a little bit.

• 44:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Right? So in 1976, first of all, Puharich knew this guy, John, um, John O'Neill, who had, had known Tesla and had written a, an early biography of Tesla. He, he knew this guy personally from early in his career. And he spent decades studying Tesla on the side of everything else. Puharich did. As an engineer, as somebody who, you know, developed these TD devices and so forth. So he spends decades studying Tesla and then in 1976,

• 44:37Speaker 01

  he notices, because he's working with all these machines that involve extremely low frequency. He notices that there is a signal coming into the continental United States on a trajectory that he believes means it's emanating from the Soviet Union. And in particular, he's able somehow to trace these scalar waves back to their point of origin. At Riga in, I believe it's Latvia and, uh, Gomel in Belarus, which were then both part of the Soviet Union.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  And he starts researching this and he comes to the conclusion that the Soviet Union has constructed nine Tesla towers. You know that the tower that Tesla developed the prototype for at Colorado Springs, and then he built one that was meant to be operational at Warden Cliff on Long Island. And then JP Morgan screwed him and the tower got demolished and so forth. And this is not incidental at all because JP Morgan wound up coming, one of the financial backers of the rise of Nazi Germany and one of the contributors to eventually, a generation later, the founding of the World Commerce Corporation. Okay?

• 45:49Jesse Michels?

  And I believe he also, at the end of his life, colluded with Russia.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yes. And, and also I've done other research. If you want to read about this, it's in my book, um, Occult Horizons, which is a collection of essays. I did other research that shows JP Morgan was involved in, in, in engineering the, the sinking of the Titanic and the murder of all those people in the middle of the Atlantic.

• 46:09Jesse Michels?

  Seriously?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  That, that was done on purpose.

• 46:11Jesse Michels?

  You think so?

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes.

• 46:12Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Uh, there were multiple reasons.

• 46:14Jesse Michels?

  Rivals with the Astors or something?

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:17Jesse Michels?

  He was?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Okay. John Jacob Astor, who died that night.

• 46:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Had decided to fund and back Tesla. He, after Morgan screwed Tesla.

• 46:26Jesse Michels?

  Is this true?

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yes, it's a hundred percent.

• 46:27Jesse Michels?

  This is the most insane thing ever. Really?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  John Jacob Astor had decided to come in as the angel investor to save Tesla from the ruin that Morgan was trying to put him in. And in, in particular, what Astor was interested in was the electrogravitics wingless propulsion application of world wireless.

• 46:49Jesse Michels?

  Is there documentation of this?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  There is. You can look into it.

• 46:51Jesse Michels?

  That's

• 46:52Speaker 01

  And

• 46:52Jesse Michels?

  Where, where can we look?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  So, um,

• 46:57Speaker 01

  look, look at my essay, uh, called Titanic Historia.

• 47:01Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  In the book Occult Horizons.

• 47:04Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  The reason I called it that, Titanic Historia.

• 47:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Is because now I don't want to go on a whole, derail us from what we were talking about Puharich and Tesla towers and all that, but long story short, okay? What I discovered was that

• 47:19Speaker 01

  There was a precursor to the OSS that was a corporate crime syndicati intelligence service nominally working for the United States, at least constituted largely by Americans, and it was based in the Hotel Astoria, the Astor Hotel in New York City, okay? Which was demolished to build the Empire State Building. And

• 47:46Jesse Michels?

  What was the intelligence organization called?

• 47:49Speaker 01

  It didn't have a name, which is why I call it the Astoria Group.

• 47:53Jesse Michels?

  Do you know who it involved?

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  All the corporate who's who of that time. Like, I list about like 12 or 14 names of key people who were involved. Harriman was involved, you know, the railroad magnate Harriman.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  This guy who

• 48:10Jesse Michels?

  Harriman also, you know, Brown Brothers Harriman fame, which basically turned into the CIA.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yes. And, you know, the Astor, now Astor's cousin was also part of this group. The guy who founded the Astor Hotel. And he had an axe to grind against his, against John Jacob Astor. And they had a serious enmity. And so I think he conspired together with Morgan and Harriman and these others to kill John Jacob Astor aboard the Titanic. But they also used it as insurance fraud because what Morgan did was he swapped the Titanic and the Olympic. The Olympic was an aging ocean liner, which had to be retired anyway. It had run its course as a serviceable liner.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  And the Titanic was a new, relatively new sister ship, which was not identical, but very close in structure to the Olympic. So Morgan runs the company that, you know, is, you know, basically sailing these liners, right? And so he has a, they keep the ships in dock for some inexplicable period of time without being used. And he has a crew go in and make the Olympic look like the Titanic and change all the signage on the Titanic and make it look like the Olympic. And then they sail the Olympic as the Titanic.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  And the Olympic was an old vessel to begin with. So it was like, was not in perfect operating condition. And the Titanic was made to sail faster, sail harder. So the people sailing the ship like were, you know, instructed to sail it to the specifications at the capacities that the Titanic was supposed to be fitted for. And there's also indication that it was kind of deliberately driven into an iceberg.

• 50:10Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Yes. And so, point being, it allowed him to carry out insurance fraud because he claimed the insurance money on what was actually the Olympic.

• 50:20Jesse Michels?

  JP Morgan.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  JP Morgan did. It was a huge insurance fraud. And so they sank this old ship that had to be retired anyway. And the thing that sailed for years after that as the Olympic was the real Titanic.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  So anyway, how did we get into this whole thing? Tesla, Astor, right? So poor Astor, who was a very interesting character, by the way. He wrote some whole sci-fi novel about like, you know, higher intelligences in other worlds in the cosmos.

• 50:53Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know that.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a very visionary, romantic guy. And eventually Tesla, I think, was able to prevail over that side of him to convince him to basically, you know, lift Tesla up from out of the ruin that Morgan was trying to put him in. Okay, short-lived endeavor. So, but the point is this, that Tesla developed this whole physics and Puharic spent decades studying it.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Then he realizes in 1976 that the Soviets are using these Tesla towers. All right, what I was saying is this, is that he figures out that the Soviets have built, I think, I think the number was nine, which is staggering, of these Tesla towers of the kind that Nikola Tesla himself had constructed at Colorado Springs and Warden Cliff. But they built them all underground. So most people have the impression, which I think has been deliberately promulgated, that the Tesla towers are broadcasting electricity. Because, you know, lightning bolts come out of the top of Tesla coils. And so this impression has been conveyed that a Tesla tower was supposed to wirelessly broadcast electricity like up to the ionosphere.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  And then devices like even light bulbs would pick this up wirelessly from out of the ionosphere as like some kind of ambiently radiating electricity. That's not the case at all. And Puharic figured that out. Like, what's actually going on with the Tesla tower? Is that the bottom third or fourth of it, which has a rod that's driven down into the earth, into the bedrock, is propagating a scaler wave through the earth. It's a scaler wave generating device. And if you, if you set up two of these and you cause their scaler waves to interfere, to be slightly out of phase with each other, but to interfere at a distant target location,

• 52:48Speaker 01

  you can tune it so that information is conveyed through the vacuum or through the quantum potential field to then release electromagnetic energy at the target location. And specifically, Puharic realized that there's a 45 mile radius for the generation of this electromagnetic energy at the target location for interfering scaler waves. And he was monitoring this woodpecker signal from the Soviet Tesla towers through 1976 and noticing an intensification in a certain geographical area.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Then on July 13th, 1977,

• 53:38Speaker 01

  the power lines and power stations in New York City and greater New York City area fried from the bottom up. And the power companies lied about this. They said it was hit by lightning from above. But people who witnessed it said it was like, electricity was coming out from the earth and up these towers and frying them. Okay? And also people saw, when the lights went out, people saw this weird aurora-like glow briefly form over the greater New York area.

• 54:09Jesse Michels?

  What was the conventional explanation?

• 54:11Speaker 01

  That an electric storm, you know, fried the power grid and overcharged it.

• 54:17Jesse Michels?

  Was there a storm at the time?

• 54:19Speaker 01

  There was like ambient electricity and lightning in various areas, but which would also be a result of releasing electromagnetic energy at the end of interfering scaler waves.

• 54:31Jesse Michels?

  Was the weather also bad or was it just fine?

• 54:34Speaker 01

  No, it was like a weird coalescing of like, of electrical energy. Pretty suddenly. And within a 45 mile radius, which is what he had calculated as the radius for this kind of effect.

• 54:47Jesse Michels?

  What year is this?

• 54:49Speaker 01

  It's July 13th to 14th, 1977. Okay? So Puharic comes to this conclusion, right? And he's deeply disturbed by this because he's like, okay, well, this is not theoretical anymore. Now, one of the superpowers is starting to operationally use this Tesla scaler technology as a weapon.

• 55:08Jesse Michels?

  Why wouldn't they just use that to win the Cold War?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Okay, so then Puharic says

• 55:13Jesse Michels?

  Dude in DC.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Get this, get this. So then Puharic says that, and this is in an interview later in the, in, I think it's 1984.

• 55:21Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  When, so, so let me, let me come back to this 1984 because I want to show you like, why did he start having such loose lips by the mid 1980s and admitting things that are gonna, you know, get the government very pissed off, right? So 1977, July 77, this blackout, and he starts researching it intensively. And he develops a manuscript called Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter. And the manuscript goes into detail about the scaler physics that came from out of Tesla, based on Maxwell's equations and so forth, and how Tesla towers work to produce scaler waves. And he connects it by the end of the manuscript to the blackout. And he says, this is, this was used as a weapon.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  And, you know, this has gotten out of hand and it's threatening the existence of humanity on a planetary scale. And we could have the weaponization of geophysical effects. We could have man-made natural catastrophes. From earthquakes to weather manipulation to produce hurricanes and typhoons and so forth. And, you know, the, the powers that be, whether it's the Soviet Union or our own government, the United States, maybe he projects China in the near future, don't have the requisite ethics or moral sensibility to be handling this kind of technology. And really, this needs to be revealed at the United Nations and the planet is in peril and so on and so forth.

• 56:47Jesse Michels?

  Is that paper public that he wrote?

• 56:49Speaker 01

  So let me explain. So he writes this manuscript. He starts to try to get a publishing deal for this manuscript. I believe it was with Dell. And it starts going through the editorial process and all this.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  The editor, all of a sudden, so it's scheduled for publication.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  I think most of the editing was done. The editor all of a suddenly gets extremely ill. And he says, we have to put the project on hold. You know, I'm debilitated, I can't work on it. And after a while, Puharic kind of like consults with him again. So, oh, how you doing? Like, can we resume this project? He goes, no, I think like, anytime I start this project again, I might get really ill.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  And they abandoned publication of it at Dell. Puharic doesn't give up. He keeps trying to get a new publisher for this manuscript.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  He takes this, so Puharic was doing work in Mexico with this shaman called Pasita, which he had developed a relationship with in the 1950s, back when he was doing the, you know, tests with psilocybin and amenita muscaria, right? So he tended to go back to Mexico and check on, you know, his Mexican and shaman associates and so forth. And he happened to be on a trip to Mexico in August of 1978, so about a year later, almost exactly, you know, 13 months after the blackout. And after he's already written this book, Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter. He's in Mexico and he gets a call saying, "Your house has burned down in Austin."

• 58:28Speaker 01

  And what's worse is that most of the space kids were in there. And so the subsequent fire department investigation-

• 58:36Jesse Michels?

  Explain who the space kids are for the average-

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the space kids were, now, we could go into a whole thing just on this because I found weird things involving this that aren't part of the public record. To the extent there's even a public account of this, I found other things that undermine that, but supposedly the story is, like what we've heard from Greg Malatzi in his film Mind Traveler, the story is that when Puharic was taking Yuri Geller around as some kind of a circus handler, right, getting him all kinds of speaking engagements and television appearances, and Yuri Geller's abilities to bend metal and perform other

• 59:17Speaker 01

  psychic feats was being widely broadcasted, there were a bunch of young people all over the place who, upon watching Geller perform these feats on television, suddenly developed these abilities themselves. And like concerned parents were getting a hold of Puharic and saying, "My kid is bending spoons, like what the hell did you do? He watched this Geller character and now he's like, you know, levitating forks, like what is this, you know?" And so then Puharic kind of goes, this is insane, he kind of goes door to door to these families. And the thing is, he was an incredibly charismatic person. Like if you, if you look at recordings of him and see how he speaks, not just how he

• 59:58Speaker 01

  writes, but how he speaks and his demeanor, he was an incredibly charismatic person. Very genial. And he convinced some of these parents to basically let him study their kids. And he starts to like congregate these kids like feral cats inside his home in Austin. Later, by the way, he became like a cat lady. Puharic like literally became like, his house was like full of cats, stray cats. Anyway, so he corrals these psychic kids, Gellerlings as they called them, into the Lab 9 that he set up at his home in Austin, suburb of New York City. He would commute from there to the Intelectronics office in Midtown. But he can't bring the kids to the Intelectronics office because this is shady stuff. You're experimenting on children.

• 1:00:42Jesse Michels?

  It was called Lab 9?

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Lab 9, yeah.

• 1:00:45Jesse Michels?

  It's kind of weird it was called Lab 9 and they were in touch with what they called the 9.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Well, that's why he called it Lab 9.

• 1:00:51Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  It's named after the 9.

• 1:00:52Jesse Michels?

  Then that's less weird.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  These supposedly discarnate space intelligences-

• 1:00:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  -who, for some reason, need a bunch of kids to tell them what's going on inside the Kremlin.

• 1:01:02Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Which is ridiculous. But I mean, these were kids, they didn't question him, you know? So, so anyway-

• 1:01:09Jesse Michels?

  So wait, what do you think then? So, okay, so he's recruiting all these telepathic, high side-

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Telekinetic, telepathic-

• 1:01:16Jesse Michels?

  Gifted kids.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Pre-cognitives, yeah.

• 1:01:18Jesse Michels?

  It's like real life X-Men or something.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  That's exactly what it's like. He's Professor X in the manor house.

• 1:01:22Jesse Michels?

  There you go. Yeah, so it's this wild story. And then where I never get clarity from people who are extremely deep on him, you know, and I think, for example, when I speak to Greg, I think he's being very intellectually honest, where it's very hard to say whether Puharic believes in alien beings and non-human intelligence, or whether it's some cynical, just he knows the parapsychology stuff is real, but it's really just this intelligence gathering sort of effort.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  It is complicated. I, you know, after having studied him deeply enough to write a book about it, definitely he was using the 9 as some kind of an egregoric tulpa construct to psychotronically manipulate gifted psychics to carry out intelligence operations. There's no question about that. But does that mean that he thought it was total bullshit and that, you know, that there was nothing on the other side of it that he was engaging with? That's not so clear at all because especially late in his life, Puharic himself claims he starts to get messages from these entities and he kind of, in a somewhat insane way,

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  frankly, reorganizes his life around it, around these like cosmic clock messages he gets on this like Tesla watch that he developed, supposedly also from out of Tesla's patents.

• 1:02:47Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so he ended up a believer.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and did he drink his own Kool-Aid? I mean, that's a possibility too.

• 1:02:53Jesse Michels?

  Well, all, so many of these stories are like, you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss stares back or something. You know, you read Diana Pasulka's great book, American Cosmic, and the first half is like, this is a psyop built up in a Hollywood studio. And then the second half is like, I've fallen in and I know, you know, and it's my own story too. I like sort of, you know, got completely, you know, red-pilled on this stuff by Jacques Vallée, how put off people like that where, you know, before that I was like, this guy has to be a joke.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Jesse Michels?

  You know, so, okay, so he has all these space kids and they're channeling the 9 and they're doing intelligence gathering stuff and he maybe initially is somewhat skeptical and involved, you know, there's some psychic, there's some manipulation. But eventually he sort of turns into a believer.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Jesse Michels?

  And then he's also doing all of this research on Tesla-

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Tesla, scalar waves as weapons.

• 1:03:46Jesse Michels?

  As weapons.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  So, so I think it was like, August 8th or 9th, something like that, 1978, he's in Mexico and he gets this call that, you know, "Your house has been burned down." And the fire department investigation, which was thorough, determined that the arsonists had approached the property from two directions with a clear intent to trap all the people inside, to start the fire in a way where there would be no escape from the house. And the space kids are in there. And so they wanted to murder these people.

• 1:04:26Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  And blame it on Puharic, like basically be like, this guy, like, first of all, these children shouldn't be in his house. Second of all, they all just got immolated, right? Fortunately, a couple of the space kids came back to the house early, like they had gone out to do something and they came back unexpectedly early, just as the fires had started and they were able to get everyone, everyone out alive, okay? But the house burned down. And so Puharic was convinced that this was the CIA who did this to him. And he becomes increasingly hostile to the US government after that. And this is why, to go back to, you know, what I started on earlier, by 1984, when he's

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  giving lectures here and there, he lets a lot of things slip in a way that, you know, compromises national security. And one of the things he says that answers your question earlier is like, why didn't the Soviets just use this against us? Is, well, first of all, I mean, we had a lot of nuclear weapons. So if we realized they were using scalar weapons against us on a large scale, that would have triggered a nuclear war, which is one reason the US government might not want to tell the American public that New York City at least suffered a test of a scalar capability during that blackout, okay? Because you don't want to drum up the public into a fervor for nuclear war with the Soviets. But the other reason is that Puharic let slip in this lecture in, I think, 1984, he

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  says, "Oh yeah, and you know, we started building them ourselves." And he says, "We built one in Alaska, United States, one in South Africa."

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  Since 1976, the US has built one broadcast tower in South Africa here, and there's one in Alice Springs, Australia, and one is, I don't know where this one's operating yet, one is in the Antarctic, in the McMurdo Sound area.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  So we, that's one of the reasons for the US relationship with the apartheid government of South Africa, is that that geographical location was ideal for triangulation on the Soviet Union, okay? Rather than building another one within the continental United States, they wanted one in South Africa. And then he goes, "And now they're built," and 1984, "And now they're building a third one in Antarctica."

• 1:06:42Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  And then he stops himself. Then he like realizes like, "I'm saying shit that I shouldn't be saying," and he cuts himself off.

• 1:06:49Jesse Michels?

  And this is all on record?

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  1984, it's on video. Find it on YouTube.

• 1:06:54Jesse Michels?

  That is crazy.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  And now we're building one in Antarctica.

• 1:06:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and then you have, you know, whistleblowers coming out of Antarctica saying that we have- Eric Hecker, yeah, neutrino detectors and emitters and stuff.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Causing earthquakes, like the New Zealand earthquake.

• 1:07:09Jesse Michels?

  Christchurch earthquake, exactly.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Which is what Puharic was worried about. And so Puharic, by the early 1980s, was going around with Buckminster Fuller and trying to get the United Nations to recognize that this technology exists and that it's a peril to humanity.

• 1:07:26Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, that is wild. So trippy. So, and do we have that paper that he tried to get submitted?

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I use it in my book on, I cite it repeatedly, I cite passages from out of it.

• 1:07:39Jesse Michels?

  I would love to read that, that is so-

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  I'll send it over to you.

• 1:07:41Jesse Michels?

  Please.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  You can find PDFs of it floating around on the internet. There, the one that I got was through a Yugoslavian sort of Tesla society.

• 1:07:54Jesse Michels?

  It's wild that he was writing and talking about this in the late 70s, early 80s, because Thomas Bearden was this Navy guy who was also talking about, you know, these mega death weapons from-

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  They worked together.

• 1:08:03Jesse Michels?

  The Soviets, they worked together. That's fascinating because he's talking about scalar weaponry coming out of the, you know, the Soviet Union.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Bearden and Puharic, they were friends essentially, and they cite each other. So, and this is a whole other interesting story. I did a whole series on Tom Bearden in my Substack called Psychotronic Excalibur. It's on my Substack, it's like six parts or something like that. And it's an exegesis of this book that Bearden wrote called The Excalibur Briefing. I get that, this is some crazy shit. So Bearden starts writing this book and exactly the same time, Puharic starts writing Tesla's magnifying transmitter. They're writing the manuscripts in parallel. Listen to what happens to the Excalibur briefing.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Bearden finishes this book and he submits it to the publisher and arsonists and like, like people, you know, henchmen show up to the publisher and set a fire and smash all the printing presses that were supposed to run the plates for this book.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  And I forget what happened. Some kind of harm actually also comes to the publisher himself. I forget how he's manhandled. And so then the publisher hires a security firm because he's determined, now he's pissed off, to guard the printing press. And I think they had to set up a different press. And actually, the book that comes out of it's kind of shitty because it didn't use the professional printing process because it had been destroyed by these saboteurs. So they get the book out under like literally a security cordon. And this book is impossible to get your hands on. You have to, and the copies cost like 3, 400. It's one of these books is like way out of print, 400 bucks

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  to get a hold of a copy. And the whole thing is about how scalar wave propagating technology like Tesla towers are actually psychotronic devices. And that it's not just about conveying electromagnetic energy at a distance. These things tune quantum potential in a way that can produce apparitions and that can propagate thoughts telepathically into people's minds.

• 1:10:24Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Okay, so here we get into what psychotronics really is, is that Tom Bearden and Andrea Puharic had figured out that manipulation of information exchange in a non-local way is a science that has technological applications. So that in principle, and this goes back to the beginning of our conversation about the soul as an information energetic matrix, or what Puharic called, he called it a nuclear plasma, not because it had anything to do with uranium or plutonium, but because it has a nucleus, what he called a mobile center of consciousness. And it's like a plasma. In other words, he took the idea of a protoplasm,

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  the undifferentiated protoplasm, and ectoplasm. And he develops this term of nuclear plasma from out of it. And so he thinks this nuclear plasma can be manipulated and information can be exchanged between these nuclear plasmas through extremely low frequency scalar wave propagation. And that machines can be built for this purpose, and that this is the great discovery of Nikola Tesla that's been hidden. So that Tesla was involved in magic in a way, actually. And that's what's been hidden. And so what this does is, and why I decided to write that book, is because it practically dynamites the dichotomy between mind and matter,

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  or the spiritual and the physical, in exactly the way that I was trying to do from my first book, Prometheus and Atlas, with my proposal for a spectral revolution, right?

• 1:11:59Jesse Michels?

  Well, yeah, it's almost like a causal carrier wave mechanism for consciousness. It's fascinating because, you know, we're now talking about extended electrodynamics, these sort of models that, yeah, involve, you know, more faithful adherence to Maxwell's original equations, where the Lorentz gauge isn't automatically set to zero. So the square of the vector and scalar potentials added up doesn't necessarily equal zero. And so you can have, you know, the existence of vector and scalar potentials without a traditional electromagnetic wave, and then maybe even actually manipulate those vector and scalar potentials. And we were having a wild conversation last night with Stuart Hameroff and Hal

• 1:12:44Jesse Michels?

  Puthoff about this. And Stuart Hameroff, of course, is a collaborator of Roger Penrose, his ideas of consciousness. And Hal Puthoff was asking him, do the microtubules form a Josephson junction, which is essentially a quantum receiver, which would be able to pick up these sort of, you know, vector and scalar potentials. So it'd be wild if we found a carrier wave for consciousness. You know, Ingo Swan was able to, and all these, you know, telepathic people are able to somehow affect things through, you know, hard shielding and things that would cut off electromagnetic waves. And so, you know, I think if people who are at the forefront of all these programs are openly speculating that it's this exotic

• 1:13:27Jesse Michels?

  offshoot of electromagnetism, that's, it's very interesting. And then I suspect that there's something still far more fundamental about consciousness. Maybe thoughts, maybe semantic thought, or, you know, maybe there's something around that. And then consciousness itself feels way deeper than just scalar physics or something, but.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Well, you know, so, okay, so first of all, Puharic first discovered that there may be a manipulable carrier wave for ESP and potential production of PK back in the 1950s, when he was doing tests with Faraday cages at the Roundtable Foundation, where his initial hypothesis, I believe it was in Maryland or Maine, that, you know.

• 1:14:18Jesse Michels?

  The Roundtable was in Maine.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Maine, Maine, in Maine, where he had been funded by, you know, intelligence apparatuses, naval intelligence, CIA, to set up this Roundtable Foundation in the early 50s. And he initially hypothesized that if you put a psychic inside of a Faraday cage, they'll do poorly, because, you know, it was naively assumed that maybe there's some kind of electromagnetic wave that's propagating information in ESP. But he found that actually they do much better inside the Faraday cage. And then he started testing like, okay, well, what is it that can penetrate a Faraday cage? And this was the beginning of his work on scalar waves and extremely low frequency modulation. And so, okay, the other thing that Puharic

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  discovered about the blackout in July of 1977, was that the scalar waves coming from Riga and Gomel in the Soviet Union were being modulated with an extremely low frequency at a rate of 10 or 11, like 11 hertz. And the normal, like, human baseline for a frequency of well-being that's in tune with the Schumann resonance is 8 hertz. And if you take it up to 10 or 11 hertz, people get extremely agitated and violent. And if you bring it down to like 6 hertz, people get really depressed and debilitated and nauseous and disoriented.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  And so the Soviets were broadcasting at 10 or 11 hertz, and this was agitating people into this mass rioting and arson that took place. I mean, it was like apocalyptic for 24 hours or so. And so, so the thing is, it looks like there is a carrier wave for psi that can be technologically manipulated. Now, consciousness is a question of self-reflection. Because, look, plants are capable of psi. Cleve Baxter found this. By the way, he worked with Puharic. Puharic and Baxter were working, this guy was connected to everybody. You know, he was connected to Dr. Puthoff. So, and.

• 1:16:30Jesse Michels?

  And he met with.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Brought Ingo Swan to SRI.

• 1:16:33Jesse Michels?

  And Puharic met with Townsend Brown, too.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Jesse Michels?

  What would be one of the kind of most, your first used use cases of MKUltra or mind control? It would be around secret technology, be around technology that you really wouldn't want to let, let out. And if you can do the Manchurian Candidate stuff and create splits between people, which they definitely can do, you know, there were these, there were these like trigger words, you know, where you'd have couriers, spies or whatever that would go, you know, you'd say the word and then they'd split and their alter would come out or something. Then why wouldn't you do that with secret technology?

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Jesse Michels?

  And I believe Bob Lazar even met with a hypnotist in Vegas after his experience. And the hypnotist said he had clearly gone through some sort of, you know, intense hypnotic stuff, like, you know, mind control stuff. And to me, that doesn't necessarily take away from his testimony, which, you know, it's kind of hard to argue, he was at least at S4, Area 51. And, you know, it's a great movie that my buddy Luigi just, just made on that everyone should check out. But, yeah, like, maybe you'd use it to keep the technology secret.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  For sure. So he was extremely well positioned, and therefore we have to take a lot of the statements he's making as fact, not speculation. And so, but the thing is about consciousness, right? Plants have ESP, they have incredibly strong ESP. Cleve Baxter demonstrated this in his laboratory in 1970s. And plants are certainly not conscious. They're sentient. So psi is a property of sentience, not of consciousness. Okay? And that property can be technologically manipulated. That doesn't mean consciousness is reducible to something quasi-mechanical.

• 1:18:25Jesse Michels?

  Well, does, but, no, so I love this. But this brings up all sorts of weird epistemic questions of cognitive sovereignty. And just like you have the hard problem of consciousness with David Chalmers, where it's like, you can't prove that I'm not a P-zombie, I can't prove you're not a P-zombie, you know, that we're not AI constructs or whatever. In this paradigm, you get into, you can't prove that I'm not mind controlled cyborg. I can't prove you're not a mind controlled cyborg.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  That's where consciousness comes in. Okay. And that's so Hagel, Garrick Hagel was right to believe that consciousness is a dialectical developmental process of ever increasing self-awareness and self-transparency and reflectiveness. Right. And so the more unconscious a person or a society is, the more easily they're manipulated, including psychotronically, right? And, you know, we can see from the, some very adept psychics like Ted Sirios or Ted Owens, that it doesn't correlate to self-reflectiveness very much at all.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  In fact, it might kind of be a negative correlation, right? And so developing sciability or having sciability activated in you by some kind of a psychotronic machine is not the same thing as elevating your consciousness. Right. And so you could be a very conscious person and not have much sciability, or you could be a, you know, a sci adept and be very unconscious. Right. And so I think that, you know, the main point of the book I wrote on Puharich, Intellectronics, is to tease out what he meant by this term, namely that because psychotronic technologies of the kind he was responsible for developing

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  posed such a serious threat to human agency, it's of paramount important for us to develop our intellect to where we have greater self-consciousness and capacity for self-reflection. Because otherwise, we're going to destroy ourselves with this.

• 1:20:36Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 1:21:01Jesse Michels?

  Technology. So then if you get into sort of, you know, if there's some higher sort of cosmic war, timeline war or something, and this idea you presented earlier of some of these donations, these gifts given around technology actually being bad or causing detours or meaning to, you know, the intention being that, you know, humanity is going to be sort of clamped down upon.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  They preempted and co-opt what would have been organic technological developments.

• 1:21:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So, so, so, so what do you, what do you mean by that? And I knew one example is I just had, you know, this kid, Deep Prasad on, who's, you know, really smart quantum computing guy and. I've met him. Okay, nice. And we were talking, and he, he mentioned, you know, he was like fiber optics, you know, integrated circuits, you know, lasers. Think about all the things that have led to modern computing. If you take the Philip J. Corso narrative at face value, that, that was transferred from, you know, alien derived material. Integrated circuits, lasers and fiber optics. Those are the only three things you need to build a data center today.

• 1:22:10Jesse Michels?

  That's it. So I almost feel like our AI breakthroughs and stuff was like a, like a Trojan horse from aliens potentially.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's bullshit.

• 1:22:21Jesse Michels?

  You think it's bullshit?

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  It's bullshit. And it goes back to one of our earlier disagreements is that I think there's a lot of evidence, and Puharich would agree with this.

• 1:22:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  There was a lot of evidence that the craft that came down in Roswell, specifically Roswell, not like, you know, the Trinity Crash, not Aztec, you know, but Roswell in particular was a Nazi craft. And the stuff that was recovered from it, laser, something like early fiber optics, Velcro, Kevlar, were all state of the art technologies that were being developed toward the end of World War II in Nazi Germany.

• 1:22:57Jesse Michels?

  So what, what explains Corso's behavior? Why would Corso come out and say, you know, I swear to God, I was on this, you know, foreign, foreign technology desk for the Pentagon and I was.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  He was.

• 1:23:08Jesse Michels?

  To dole out.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  Foreign technology.

• 1:23:10Jesse Michels?

  So that's it. That's it. It's just, and then.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  But you need the alien cover story.

• 1:23:14Jesse Michels?

  So he, he was explicitly doing that as a cover? Even though his son now will say, you know, I think his father.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  He could also have been psy-opted into promulgating that cover story. But I think the cover story was necessary. And I think the cover story is also behind the initial Roswell press release. Like, why would you even do that? That whole, the initial saucer crash story, right?

• 1:23:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  I think they promulgate, the government itself promulgated this alien narrative and then covered it up to further legitimize it.

• 1:23:42Jesse Michels?

  So what, what was that Nazi experimental craft then?

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  See, the thing is though.

• 1:23:47Jesse Michels?

  There's a Horton flying wing.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And, and the thing is you have to hide that because that's worse than maybe aliens crashing.

• 1:23:55Jesse Michels?

  That's kind of what Annie Jacobson hints at in her book, Area 51. She thinks that they were like on, on the hunt for the Hortons. And you think Kenneth Arnold saw.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  It's in the twining memo.

• 1:24:06Jesse Michels?

  Well, he says that we have the knowledge to build some of these crafts.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  He also says, I need you to find out where the hell Horton brothers are. This looks an awful lot like what they're doing.

• 1:24:16Jesse Michels?

  I've never seen that.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that it's in, in the, there was a fake version of the twining memo, which was widely circulated. And then the original, undocked version was excavated. And it had, there's a number of specific passages that have been modified in the fake version that had earlier been widely circulated.

• 1:24:33Jesse Michels?

  I, I really want to see this because this is a really important data point.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  You can easily find it.

• 1:24:37Jesse Michels?

  For the audience, Nathan Twining was head of air material command. He was responsible for all aircraft development in the air force. And, you know, he's writing this memo after Roswell in 1947 and after Kenneth Arnold's sighting. And he's saying, you know, UFOs are not visionary or fictitious. They, you know, extreme rates of climb maneuverability, that sort of thing, you know, all the kind of observables that we think of today. And then there's a postscript, which I find fascinating, that Nick Cook, who's a great kind of aviation historian, points out in his book, The Hunt for Zero Point, where he says, we actually have the knowledge to build some of these crafts. And he even goes into specs, like I think a certain range that goes well beyond the U2 spy plane, which was built years later, like almost a decade later.

• 1:25:23Jesse Michels?

  And he says, if, but if we were to actually execute on this knowledge and build these programs, you know, the programs would need to exist outside of, you know, bureaucracy cycling in, in and out of kind of civilian government, basically implying like this would need to get bound up in atomic secrecy or something. But you're saying there's another version that, where he says, we need to look for the Horton brothers?

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:45Jesse Michels?

  Which are these essentially Nazi aviation pioneers, you know, brothers who, they built these like, they looked like boomerangs almost.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Jesse Michels?

  You're saying, really?

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Yes. And.

• 1:25:59Jesse Michels?

  Are you sure?

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Yes. And there's a passage where he says something like, this looks an awful lot like what the Horton brothers were doing. We have to find out where they are, whether they're in Russia or somewhere else, because this looks a lot like what they were doing.

• 1:26:10Jesse Michels?

  Where would they be flying over Roswell from? Like, where would they even be from like Argentina or something?

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Stories, which I think we got into this in a previous podcast. There are stories that appear in the Spanish press in 1946 that describe Otto Scorsani launching saucer shaped rockets and other weird projectiles across the Atlantic from Spain toward the continental United States, with Francisco Franco personally observing the launches.

• 1:26:42Jesse Michels?

  But then what's so weird is like, you also clearly have a connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:50Jesse Michels?

  That far transcends that.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the overlords.

• 1:26:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So you have that, but then it's like, is, are both true? Because you have, you have thousands of documents from Army, Air Force, CIA, you know, pick your intel or, you know, military organization in the United States, between 1945, the advent of the nuclear age and the building of the U2 spy plane. So you're not going to ever mistake a fighter jet for a UFO. You know, maybe U2, high altitude recon plane.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Not even a U2.

• 1:27:20Jesse Michels?

  Some people might have, or you know, SR71s maybe or whatever.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  SR71 maybe. That's, that was a little bit weird.

• 1:27:26Jesse Michels?

  Later. Yeah. So to me, that is a like checkmate in one debunk for any of the debunkers who say that there's no UFO connection with nuclear weapon. It is longstanding, widespread. Robert Hastings documents this extremely thoroughly. And a lot of transcendent weird stuff happens around our nuclear programs. Even in Japan, I was just there, you know, they have the Fukushima, you know, civilian nuclear grid. They built a mountain, they built a museum on a mountain called Mount Sengonmori, which is dedicated to UFOs because UFOs show up there so constantly. So the Occam's razor almost, if you accept that expanded reality, which I do, is that Roswell, which was the site of the largest site of tactical nukes in the world

• 1:28:11Jesse Michels?

  at the time, something weird happened there. And Jesse Marcel's, you know, testimony should just be taken at face value that this thing is just alien.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  The material recovery doesn't support that.

• 1:28:25Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  Because when you look at the interior of Nordic craft, as described by, let's say, Travis Walton, where, you know, initially Walton was handled by the grays. And then he broke free from these gray robots, as he described them. And then he counters the Nordics and the Nordics handle him for the rest of his abduction. And the way he describes the interior of that craft matches many other such descriptions. It's very sleek and streamlined and exotic. I mean, it's like what Bob Lazar was describing when the interior of the craft he worked on at S4. It's not the janky shit that showed up at Roswell, like early lasers and Velcro and Kevlar.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  That's like someone, you know, Nazis put together something and sent it over. They got it. They crashed it over here.

• 1:29:14Jesse Michels?

  I don't know, but it's almost like they were inspired by the bits and pieces to

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:29:18Jesse Michels?

  create those things. And I do find it interesting.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  I mean, Magenta is the starting point for their reverse engineering efforts. Okay. But to go back to your earlier question, which is philosophically the more interesting one.

• 1:29:28Jesse Michels?

  Well, I also, we have to, we have to find that twining memo because I'm not sure.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  You should be able to find it easily.

• 1:29:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Him looking for the Horton brothers.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Yes, it's a memo. It's, it's, there's more than one twining associated document. Okay. And it's one of the twining associated documents, which there was an earlier doctored version that was circulating around for a long time cited by many UFO researchers, which basically had a bunch of alien focused passages inserted into it.

• 1:30:01Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  And there's an original version, which has since been recovered, where, you know, a lot of it reads the same, but the alien passages aren't there. And there's reference to finding the Horton brothers and what they're working on from where.

• 1:30:17Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  So yeah, go track that one down.

• 1:30:19Jesse Michels?

  I will.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, but to go back to your earlier interesting question about capture of human technological development and donations, right? The point is that we were in a position with Nikola Tesla and his developments of Maxwell's equations in a technologically applicable manner. We were in a position to develop this technology ourselves from the early years of the 20th century. There are UFOs in Tesla's

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  patent drawings and in his, in his sketches, in his concept sketches, wingless aircraft that are being propelled somehow by these transmitting towers. So we could have arrived at that technology ourselves within a few decades. Instead, they dropped something off and then they secured control over it

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  to prevent a large scale public development of the same technology. And this has probably been done a number of times throughout human history.

• 1:31:21Jesse Michels?

  So when you say they dropped something off.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Magenta.

• 1:31:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And they, they, and so we, the point is, how would they stagnate it by dropping it off? I mean,

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Because they dropped it off inside the greater German Reich or, you know, fascist Europe in general. And they knew that what's going to take control of that is a totalitarian regime.

• 1:31:42Jesse Michels?

  So your point is they dropped it off to the power structure, to those in power.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, to those who they knew would do their dirty work for them and become the new enforcer.

• 1:31:49Jesse Michels?

  Well, I find it interesting that Marconi was experimenting with his death ray right around the time that Magenta happened. And there's all sorts of discussion of high powered radar interference and microwave weaponry interference with, you know, UFOs and their flight patterns. So I wonder if there was possibly some sort of connection there.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  That's possible too. But again, I go back to my earlier point that if, if it was an accident and let's say some high powered radar or whatever brought it down or a laser or something. For fuck's sake, go recover the material. Like, do not allow Nazi Germany of all countries to retrieve this where you know that they are the one country that has the physicists and engineers that are probably going to be able to figure this out. Go get the frigging material back. And then even worse, like you leave a Nordic pilot there and they already have these myths about the, you know, you know, the elders of Thule and like, you know, the, the great Nordic ancestors and so forth. And you know what they're going to do when they find this, you know, ascended master inside this craft.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Leibniz born is established a year later. So, so I, I don't think it was an accident.

• 1:32:58Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe, you know, Eric Walker is, he was the president of Penn State? And this longtime CIA life sciences guy, Kit Green, who's sort of, you know, this famous psychiatrist from the CIA. He was in the office of Eric Walker because Eric Walker is rumored to be one of these sort of majestic 12 guardians of the UFO issue. Do you think that group existed? And what do you think their role was?

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  After having studied what, what I used to call in my writings, Dispena, the spider. And what I think Samosa accurately has identified as the World Commerce Corporation, right? What Tom DeLonge calls the Maynard Consortium. After having studied that, my conclusion is that the original Jamie Shandera leaked majestic 12 documents are sophisticated forgeries. And that they're mixing some truth with a lot of disinformation.

• 1:34:01Jesse Michels?

  Clearly.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Such that there was an MJ control group or magic or MJ 12 or majestic, whatever. There was something like that. And, and it went on for many decades and there are reports that, you know, up till very recently, Dick Cheney was a member of it.

• 1:34:18Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  That Henry Kissinger was a member of it.

• 1:34:21Jesse Michels?

  Kissinger was, by the way, very close with Nelson Rockefeller, Rockefeller through his whole career. Some people think he What's that?

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  And David Rockefeller.

• 1:34:30Jesse Michels?

  And I didn't know that.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  He created the frigging Trilateral Commission with David Rockefeller.

• 1:34:34Jesse Michels?

  Makes sense. And, you know, some people thought he was more beholden to Nelson than to Nixon. And interesting. Okay. Yeah.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. He was in with the Rockefellers. He was their man. Okay.

• 1:34:46Jesse Michels?

  Did he work with the World Commerce Corporation?

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  No question about it. The fact that everything else he was involved with, including being a member of MJ 12, whatever that actually was, including founding the Trilateral Commission with David Rockefeller, including his connection with Nelson Rockefeller. This guy, like, he's the guy they send to bring China into the fold. He is definitely an operator.

• 1:35:08Jesse Michels?

  There's also this apocryphal, but pretty verified story. There's this guy, Bill Steinman, UFO researcher who was researching the Aztec crash. And he keeps running into this name, Eric Henry Wang, who's this head of special projects. Kind of genius Nazi paper, operation paperclip scientist. And yeah, head of special projects at Wright Patterson. And he makes his way to Kirtland Air Force Base where he's running a lot of, you know, atomic special weapons stuff. And Bill Steinman shows up at his house after he had passed. I believe his wife then says to Steinman, or I think it was, yeah, Eric, Eric Henry Wang worked for a guy and his initials were H A K.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:50Jesse Michels?

  And he sort of figured out it's, it's Henry Kissinger. And Henry Kissinger was definitely, you know, doing a lot of atomic stuff. In fact, he was in also doing Nazi tech retrieval stuff too. He was at Oberammergau in, in, in Germany.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:36:07Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, before going to Harvard, actually, and had intelligence ties, you know, basically since his early twenties. What do you think's going to happen with UFO disclosure on a go forward basis? It feels like Trump is more open to this topic than ever. Stephen Miller apparently owns the issue for him, you know, head of Homeland Security Council and also just a long time kind of Trump loyalist, which is kind of a good sign.

• 1:36:32Jesse Michels?

  I think that, you know, maybe they're saving it for kind of a rainy day. You know, and maybe they understand that it could be a good kind of PR move. But they also probably realize it would be a disastrous PR move if there's no actual incontrovertible evidence underneath it. And so it seems like they're looking for that. And the deep state quote unquote, might be playing kind of shell games with them. What do you think is going on? And if you had to predict, what do you think will happen?

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Well, I agree with all of how you implicitly framed that. In other words, whatever bullshit is supposed to pass for disclosure from out of the Trump administration is being saved for a rainy day when there's another Epstein scandal or an unpopular war. And Trump needs people to focus on something else. But the more, you know, important question is,

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  How limited will that disclosure be? How, you know, just, you know, ornamental is it? And, you know, to what extent can any significant disclosure be forced by any sitting administration? Whether this one or a subsequent administration? Let's say Rubio becomes president. He's been thoroughly briefed on this subject, at least as far as elected officials go. Right? And he decides to pursue it more seriously than Trump. I don't think he'll get anywhere. And I think that if he starts to get somewhere, bad things are going to happen to him. Because this control group is not interested in, you know, letting any of this stuff out into the public domain.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  It's interested in weaponizing it for whatever end game it's had in mind for decades. And I think we need to find some way to throw a monkey wrench in that because I don't think it's a good end game.

• 1:38:18Jesse Michels?

  What do you think the end game is?

• 1:38:21Jesse Michels?

  Remember LK99? Back in 2023, Korean researchers claimed they discovered something that could completely change the world: a room temperature superconductor. This would have far-reaching implications, from revolutionizing how we transmit electricity to breakthroughs in nuclear fusion and entirely new possibilities for quantum computing. Unfortunately, when scientists tried to recreate LK99, they couldn't reproduce the claimed superconductivity. Rather than just letting transformative ideas like this linger, imagine getting more people digging into the evidence and taking a position on whether a breakthrough discovery could actually hold up. In this case, it didn't.

• 1:39:04Jesse Michels?

  But what if we were talking about the successful splitting of an atom or discovering DNA's structure? Economist and philosopher Nassim Taleb writes about the fact that when somebody has skin in the game, they are less likely to be wrong. When you have something to lose, bad armchair ideas get weeded out more and good ones get vindicated faster. This is precisely what fascinates me about prediction markets. They're essentially peer-to-peer markets where people can take a position on real-world outcomes, like whether NASA will land on the moon again. As new evidence arises, you can see the market respond in real time. You basically get a snapshot of the consensus at all times. And if you have a unique or variant view, you can express it.

• 1:39:49Jesse Michels?

  And imagine using it to highlight breakthrough research and discoveries that could change our world. That's what excites me most about prediction markets and why we partnered with today's sponsor, Kalshi. Eligible new users can get $55 free when they trade $25 using code JESSIE. Just go to the link in the description. Thanks so much to Kalshi for sponsoring the show. Now, back to today's episode. I want to take a moment to thank today's sponsor, Cape. Cape is America's privacy-first mobile carrier. It offers the same reliable cell service you'd expect from any other carrier with privacy built into how the network works. They've added a feature that lets your phone use two major nationwide networks on a single SIM.

• 1:40:34Jesse Michels?

  You choose your preferred network in the app. If you ever lose coverage, Cape automatically tries the other network, then switches back when your preferred network is available again. My favorite feature is Cape's identifier rotation. Turn it on, and the subscriber ID tied to your SIM changes every 24 hours, making it way harder to track the same subscriber over time. And Cape deletes its call and text logs after 24 hours. So you're getting the everyday cell service you need with technology underneath it to protect your privacy. Go to cape.co/americanalchemy and use code ALKAMY to get 33% off your first six months.

• 1:41:16Jesse Michels?

  Again, that's cape.co/americanalchemy code ALKAMY. Thank you so much to Cape for sponsoring today's episode.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Because this control group is not interested in, you know, letting any of this stuff out into the public domain. It's interested in weaponizing it for whatever end game it's had in mind for decades. And I think we need to find some way to throw a monkey wrench in that because I don't think it's a good end game.

• 1:41:43Jesse Michels?

  What do you think the end game is?

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  A reset, where basically advanced industrial civilization is devastated on a global scale and some kind of a neo-feudal power structure is put into place. And these viceroy's, who have been clandestinely manipulating things, become the overt Raj, you know, governing the planet on behalf of these Devas. That's what I think the end game is. And you know what I'm very concerned about now, recently, after having written this Puharich book? Is that the kinds of geophysical cataclysms that remote viewers have seen, like, for example, Lynn Buchanan, or the project that was run by Stefan Schwarz, where they looked

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  at the year 2050? The kind of geophysical cataclysm where they're describing earthquakes and, you know,

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  famines and massive precipitous sea level rise by like 200 feet worldwide within the next 30 years. Okay? Lynn Buchanan said, way back when he first told me about this and he's discussed it publicly, it's a result of man-made natural catastrophes.

• 1:43:00Speaker 03

  The natural disaster of the mid United States is going completely dry.

• 1:43:08Speaker 03

  You know, the weather changes and all that, that's causing natural disaster, but it's man-made.

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  And I always wondered, what the hell does that mean, man-made? On that scale, you know, like, what would have to happen for the sea level to rise 200 feet? Well, Greenland and Antarctica would have to melt precipitously. Well, what the hell could do something like that? What man-made? Like, an asteroid can do it. If an asteroid slams into both, or fragments of an asteroid, the heat and impact could melt that ice sheet precipitously. But if it's man-made, what could do it? And now, after having studied the Puharich material, I realized, you know, a Tesla tower can do it. If they turned on all these Tesla transmitters and start, let's say, let's say they engineer a war using scalar weaponry, that could destabilize the relationship between the crust and the

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  mantle of the Earth.

• 1:44:05Jesse Michels?

  Well, there's so much more I want to get into with you. You're in Austin because you just gave a fascinating talk about Carl Jung, who wrote a book, most people don't know this, because Carl Jung is conventionally thought of as, you know, one of the fathers of modern psychology. You have, he was actually a contemporary of Freud and they sort of split off and he's sort of a more irrational, you know, interested in the subconscious and archetypes and that sort of thing. But, but still cut from the same cloth in many ways as Freud. And people don't know, he wrote a book called Flying Saucers. And he was fascinated with this subject. So what do you think? And he also wrote a book about synchronicities. And you just gave an interesting talk about how synchronicities might actually involve

• 1:44:51Jesse Michels?

  information theory underneath them. What do you mean by that?

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  So that was a very small part of the talk. It is a more significant part of the book that the talk was based on. The book is called Thanosis, which is a contraction of Thanatos for death and gnosis in Greek. And, you know, this, this part of the book that I included in the talk had to do with my critique of Jung's concept of synchronicity, which, you know, he analyzed, well, I wouldn't say exactly analyze. He expounds upon at length in the book by that name, synchronicity. And then he also brings in to his analysis of UFOs in his text, Flying Saucers.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  And basically, my problem with Jung is that he defines synchronicity as an acausal connecting principle, whereby archetypes somehow arrange non-causal, pattern matching, sort of pattern connecting relationships between disparate events non-locally, so that they strike a person as a meaningful coincidence, right?

• 1:46:04Speaker 01

  And one line of critique of this is that, first of all, what defines the boundaries of an event is subjective. The contours of what's going to constitute an event for one person or a group of people is going to be, you know, based on highly subjective criteria of interpretation. So what agency is it in the world at large or the cosmos that is determining that, you know, the parameters of this state of affairs constitutes a discrete event that's then going to be somehow correlated with some other event non-locally? Right? Jung doesn't have an answer for that. The second issue with this is that

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  other than like the great mother, most of the more specific archetypes that Jung presents in his writings are culturally specific. And this is a point that's lost on a lot of Jungians or sort of been swept under the rug because it has some controversial ramifications. Where, you know, if you read Jung carefully, you understand that he basically follows Georg Hegel in claiming that particular cultures and ethnicities have certain archetypes that are not shared by others. For example, the archetype of Wotan, which he saw rising in Europe and ultimately possessing the German nation in the lead up to the Second World War.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  So if archetypes are culturally specific, then how are they the organizing principle to determine an objective definition of what counts for an event? For it to then be non-locally correlated with another event? And then third and finally, supposing archetypes are somehow organizing disparate events into some meaningful pattern? Well, that's not a causal. That's either a formal or a final cause on the Aristotelian definition of causality. So Jung, who's a person who took parapsychology seriously, took UFOs seriously, for some bizarre reason, is reducing his conception of causality to modern efficient causality. Well, no, you know, we had a fourfold notion of causality

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  that prevailed for, you know, centuries before Descartes, where there's a material cause, there's an efficient cause, a formal and a final cause. And if archetypes are playing some role in organizing disparate events into meaningful coincidences, that is a form of causality at work. So then I try to understand, well, you know, what kind of causality is this exactly? That would be, you know, organizing disparate events into some striking, you know, meaningful coincidence? And along with a whole host of other evidence that I bring to bear on this question in Thanosis and that I tried to encapsulate in that presentation,

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  I come around to making the case for an informational ontology where essentially we are, as John Wheeler believed, in a computational cosmos. And either some kind of an artificial intelligence that's managing that computational system, is arranging these synchronicities, or and/or programmers of this matrix are actually engineering them more directly.

• 1:49:24Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's, you know, Jacques Vallée talks about behavioral psychologists, people like B.F. Skinner, and this idea of intermittent reinforcement. And so you get kind of a dopamine hit every time you see a UFO. But it happens sort of super sporadically and intermittently. And it keeps you going.

• 1:49:43Speaker 07

  He calls these synchronicities and these kinds of things that happen, they actually provide dopamine, right? So when you're like doing something that's really creative, you're going to really enjoy it. Like, you know, when people get into a creative space and they just go and they can't stop? That's what's happening with them.

• 1:50:00Jesse Michels?

  So I think there's something about synchronicities that, and apparently, I think there's some research being done now about synchronicities themselves provoking dopamine as well. So it's like, you know, our hormones are somehow being programmed via some sort of, you know, outer information theoretic computation that's happening. And we see these sort of things show up. And then it causes us to keep going down our path. And if you read, I don't know, Arthur Kessler wrote a great book called The Roots of Coincidence. Sometimes when people's lives get extremely meaningful, they describe it as extremely meaningful, the amount of synchronicities in their life seem to sort of speed up.

• 1:50:41Jesse Michels?

  So it's like an almost anti-entropic sort of thing, where, you know, the normal laws of thermodynamics and randomness seem to get a lot less random and everything feels very sort of fateful.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  Yes, and it can be very addictive. And I've seen this have, in some cases, a destructive effect on some people whose lives become filled with synchronicities. On the other hand, and I've experienced some of that myself. But on the other hand, I agree with you that it seems to be part of a negentropic function. And another subject that I discussed in my presentation at Deep Tech Week is this idea developed by a physicist called Melvin Vopson. He's working out of the UK. And I forget whether it's Cambridge or another institution that he's based there. But in any case, Melvin Vopson had as the point of departure for his theorization,

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  Rolf Landauer's equation that basically takes the bit that was conceptualized by Claude Shannon and establishes a relationship between this basic unit of information and entropy.

• 1:51:53Speaker 03

  I discovered that genomes are mutating not randomly, as is the consensus today. I discovered they are mutating in a way that always their information entropy reduces.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  As, you know, Vopson recognizes, looking at Landauer, if you erase one bit of information on a data storage device, like an old magnetic tape in the classic computers, you are decreasing local entropy. Because you're, you know, instead of a mess of, you know, 001, 001110, you're simplifying the state. And so entropy is decreasing locally. And therefore, according to the second law of thermodynamics, that has to be paid for by an increase of entropy in the system in general.

• 1:52:44Jesse Michels?

  So it's heat dissipation.

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Yes, so there has to be a heat dissipation from out of the data storage device into the world. Right? And well, that heat dissipation is energy. Okay, so E equals mc squared. The energy that's dissipated through a hard erase of a data storage device had to have been mass before it was converted into energy. And so Vopson basically, you know, investigates what kind of mass could this be that's invisible while it's inside of a hard drive? And he looks at, you know, the way in which dark matter was discovered in the late 1970s, where there were basically these three convergent observations.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  One was that, you know, the spin rate of stars inside galaxies, in the inner portion of galaxies, does not have as great a differential as it should from the spin rate of stars in the outer arms of the galaxies. The spin rate is flattened somehow across the galaxy. And that would suggest a hidden mass around the galaxy. Okay? The second observation was through telescopes, they noticed that the light from distant galaxies was being bent at a much more severe angle by closer galaxies than it should have been. So there was some hidden gravitational intensity that was, you know, increasing the angle

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  at which light was bent as it traveled to the telescope. And then finally, they used x-ray and spectroscopy to examine whether the gas inside galaxies could account for the hidden mass. And they found that it couldn't at all. So therefore, they theorized that there is an invisible mass or a dark matter that ensconces galaxies and that's responsible for these effects in spin rate and, you know, additional gravitational effects.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Vopson suggested that that dark matter is what's inside of a hard drive. And therefore, information has mass. The problem is that at the current moment, the total amount of mass that all the information accumulated and all the data centers of the world has comes to less than one kilogram. So we don't have measuring devices that are sensitive enough to weigh like, you know, even the largest server and be able to detect that mass. However, because the rate of data increase is so exponential, even at the current rate of the accumulation of information per year,

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  within several centuries, there should be a moon's worth of mass on the surface of the earth. And, you know, if you know anything about the gravitational dynamics between the moon and the earth, well, that would be geophysically catastrophic. If at the data centers, you started to get an accumulation of ultimately a moon's worth of mass on the surface of the earth, you know, you would have like gravity wells and you would have massive earthquakes, volcanoes would be set off and so forth.

• 1:55:51Jesse Michels?

  This is fascinating. So you're basically saying data centers aren't going to create some AI hard takeoff apocalypse, but simply by the fact that they're adding so much mass because information equals mass, that's going to be catastrophic? To be honest, it sounds a bit like Y2K to me, like one of these sort of, you know, becomes predicted ad nauseam and then like, you know, you hit the threshold and nothing sort of happens, you know, population bomb, climate change, you know, a lot of these things. I'm not saying the climate isn't changing, but you can at least definitively say some of the, you know, people really harping on this in the seventies were wrong in their timelines. But, but I do, I do find that thought experiment of around dark matter and, you know,

• 1:56:36Jesse Michels?

  energy being stored on semiconductors, I find that very interesting. Because dark matter by itself, you know, it does justify gravity's weakness. You know, the universe would fling apart. It's, you know, you have cosmic inflation, you have dark energy expanding it at all times. And the reason that, you know, and gravity is pretty weak actually. And so the reason it doesn't fling apart is you have dark matter, which definitely does have sort of a, you know, gravitational element to it. And then it doesn't interact with light, which I find really interesting. And so one sort of, you know, this is a wacky thought experiment and that, you know, is again way above my pay grade to even, you know, really corroborate the research on.

• 1:57:19Jesse Michels?

  But you have people like Sakharov, who, you know, father of the Russian nuclear program, had this sort of twin universe model. And, you know, this kind of Janus model of, of the universe. And Jean Pierre Petit is also a magneto hydrodynamics researcher in, in southern France, who believes some of this stuff. And I wonder if there's something about dark matter that is sort of unrendered reality. Like, uh, think about light. It follows the least time principle between two observers. And so it almost feels like it's sort of algorithmically optimized. And look at Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, where if you look at position and momentum, one feels sort of fuzzier as the other gets more accurate.

• 1:58:04Jesse Michels?

  There's sort of a, there's an epistemic trade off of knowing information about one versus the other, which feels like a computational caching function. Only one can be stored in sort of local memory. And then you look at the parapsychology random event generator experiments, and it feels like we have the ability to affect what are conventionally thought of as random.

• 1:58:25Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses setup require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 1:58:50Jesse Michels?

  And quantum mechanical things. And so like radioactive isotope decay or a double set experiment with a 50 50 distribution. And so it's almost like the only negentropic, you know, Maxwell's demon sort of thing where you're, you can sort of reverse the second law of thermodynamics is informational, but it's also consciousness. Like if, you know, what is the, what is the consciousness connection with the random event generator? That, that is literally negentropic. And then if you think about that, uh, being extrapolated upwards into like a macro scale, that's synchronicity. Like you have these meaningful things coming into your purview in life that are expressions of your subconscious, uh, which doesn't really make sense.

• 1:59:33Jesse Michels?

  Like, how do things get manifested in your life that feel like they were sort of latent inside of you? And Jung talks about this in such an interesting way. Obviously he himself sort of went into a, you know, psychosis for, for years and, you know, wrote the red book and stuff, but yeah, it's fascinating.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  So a few things. First, we kind of got lost in dark matter, but the way that, that, that we went there, is that I was trying to respond to your point about entropy. And so what Vopson is theorizing based on his sort of informational ontology is that there is a, a law of info dynamics, as he calls it. That's the inverse of the law of thermodynamics, where it appears that in information is conserved or increases in complexity and fidelity over time. So that information, you know, is a negentropic process.

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  And you can see this in biological evolution in the way that in various stages of evolutionary development on the planet, uh, form is conserved. And one mechanism that could explain that is what Rupert Sheldrake calls morphogenetic fields or formative causation, which is a kind of reformulation really of the formal cause that Aristotle was talking about. So that there is a form preserving function in the cosmos. And that looks like, you know, part of the, the operating routine of a computational system.

• 2:01:04Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  It's a memory function.

• 2:01:06Jesse Michels?

  Well, if you look at sort of golden ratios, you know, and, and Fibonacci sequences and things like that, they, they look like repeatable code chunks in the universe. So it sort of, again, looks like sort of computation at play.

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  Yes. And so what I use Vopson for in Thanosis and in the contracted version of it, I presented at Deep Tech Week, is to make sense out of some of the more bizarre parapsychological observations that have to do with afterlife studies. So for example, there were many, um, uh, studies done of, you know, regressing people into previous incarnations. One of the best studies was done by Dr. Helen Wambach, who tried to use non-leading questions, a protocol that she developed that would not involve too many leading questions to basically regress over a thousand subjects into where

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  they were in their lives at vastly varying epochs throughout history and even prehistory. So she regressed people to ancient Rome. She regressed people to like, um, you know, medieval Ireland, and then all the way back to like, you know, the age when, uh, cavemen were making flint tools. And she found things like, these people would describe the intricate details of how certain flint tools were made, uh, knowledge they could not possibly have acquired before their regression session, and that required detailed research to corroborate after the fact. But, you know, as impressive as her body of research is,

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  I think hands down the most spectacular evidence for reincarnation are the cases where, um, you know, children spontaneously recollect past lives and, you know, wind up maladjusted in their present families because of the intensity of their memories of previous lives and their, their sense of, of an earlier identity. Okay. And the habits and, and proclivities that come with that. And these were investigated over the course of decades by Dr. Ian Stevenson, the University of Virginia. And Dr. Stevenson and his, uh, team of scientists, they basically traveled over every continent, um, examining these cases. And the most interesting thing to me from a philosophical perspective that they found

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  is that there are cases where.

• 2:03:37Speaker 01

  A very young person, usually like between the ages of six and adolescence, will go through a life-threatening illness. And they may lose consciousness for a while. And then, when the person is revived, they will have a completely different personality and remember an alternate biography. And this can extend to speaking an unlearned language, which he called xenoglossy. The capacity of a person to responsively speak a language that they've never had the opportunity to learn. So what that looks like is that there's not a sharp distinction between reincarnation and possession.

• 2:04:22Speaker 01

  There are cases where there's reincarnation into an already grown human body. Okay? And in some instances, the existing personality is completely overwritten, as if the original person, you know, as if the body gave up the ghost and the original person left, and then an alternate persona came in. And there are other cases where a new persona comes in and there's a sort of dissociation where there's an alternation between two personalities, two or more. So there are cases, so it appears that there are cases of multiple incarnation into a single body. And then there are also cases where it appears that a single soul

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  splits and incarnates into two physical instantiations. One of them that I look at is the case of these psychic twins, Terry and Linda Jamison. They're identical twins, who, you know, became famous for certain striking precognitive predictions that they made that panned out, involving 9/11 and other things. And these twins, Terry and Linda Jamison, you know, they like, for example, all the classic things that you see in studies of twin telepathy, let's say by Guy Leon Playfair and many other parapsychologists who've studied the phenomenon of twin telepathy over decades. They would like, you know, wind up painting the same painting roughly at the same time, without each knowing that the other one was doing it.

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  They shared like all the same physical ailments. If one of them had an accident injured a limb, the other one would feel the pain in the same limb and so forth. So all the classic elements of what's been called twin telepathy by parapsychologists are, you know, evidenced in this case. But what's also interesting is that Terry and Linda Jamison appeared to remember having had the same previous life, as if they were one person whose soul was split and then instantiated into two bodies, right?

• 2:06:20Speaker 03

  We are one soul with two bodies, and that's a bifurcated soul. And he said it was so rare, he didn't know any either.

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  So I look at these cases, both of multiple, and, you know, the cases of multiple incarnation into a single body, or let's say possession, in the archives of Ian Stevenson, were analyzed very rigorously by Dr. Stephen Brody. He was the, you know, Chair of the Philosophy Department at the University of Maryland Baltimore, and also past president of the Parapsychological Association. I got to interact with him briefly, I knew him for a short while before, unfortunately, he passed away. Anyway, Dr. Brody analyzed these cases in detail. And he had had a whole history of studying mediumship. He spent years, Brody did, studying mediumship.

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  And he came up with a theory of how the human psyche is constituted, where we do not have a single, you know, indestructible, absolutely unified, coherent and centered soul. The, the human person, as he analyzed it, is sort of a conglomerate of sub-personalities that develop a modus vivendi with each other. They sort of learn how to get along and, you know, you know, can relatively coherently constitute the functional personality that interacts in society. Which interestingly, you know, is very much in line with how Friedrich Nietzsche understood the human person.

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  And Brody theorized that this structure of the human psyche is what makes mediumship possible. That mediums are individuals who are particularly good at dissociating and flipping between alters inside their psyche, to where they can channel, you know, external intelligences telepathically, right? And so Brody sees this structure of the psyche, which, which is, you know, intrinsic to the phenomenon of mediumship, as what makes multiple reincarnation in a single person possible. Or you could say possession, right?

• 2:08:40Speaker 01

  And so I look at these cases of multiple reincarnation in a single person, or a single person splitting into two subsequent incarnations or more. And what it looks like to me is information processing. I mean, it's like when a file is split, let's say it's duplicate, either it's split or it's duplicated any number of times. Or let's say multiple files are merged into a single file inside of a software program. It looks to me like information processing. And if Vopson is right, that, you know, the, the mass inside of a hard drive is dark matter before it's erased and released as energy,

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  I have to wonder whether that's what the soul is. And maybe there's something to those, you know, legends about how a body weighs slightly less, you know, after it's given up the ghost. There are these legends, I don't think they've ever really been, you know, very properly corroborated empirically, but I'm sure you've heard these things, right? About a slight decrease in the mass of a corpse as compared to the weight of the living person. That can't be explained by desiccation and other mundane factors. So who knows? In any case, whether or not that aspect of it is true, it seems to me that the soul is an information energetic matrix that can be potentially technologically manipulated.

• 2:10:03Jesse Michels?

  Wow, fascinating. I don't even know where to go from there, but.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  Well, there's a lot of places we.

• 2:10:09Jesse Michels?

  There are a lot of places we could go. Have you ever seen the Netflix show Dark by any chance?

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

• 2:10:15Jesse Michels?

  So this is this German show that's very similar to Stranger Things, but I would even venture to say that Stranger Things might be somewhat derivative of this. They're both sort of related to Montauk experiments around time travel. They involve the National Labs, they involve children going missing, and nuclear programs. And it's, it's really kind of freaky spooky stuff, but it connects a lot of dots around the UFO question. And I've heard that people high up in the government say, you know, that show basically comports better with our metaphysical understanding of UFOs than, than, than just about any other.

• 2:10:59Jesse Michels?

  And it involves kind of game theory vis a vis different timelines. And the reason I'm connecting it to this is like, some of the timelines are kind of unrendered, and then others get rendered. And some people sacrifice themselves in current timelines to save people that they're kind of entangled with in other timelines. It's sort of very strange.

• 2:11:28Speaker 01

  First of all, I've seen it. Second of all, it is completely in line with what I argued in Closer Encounters. The, you know, tome I wrote on the UFO phenomenon. Basically, I mean, I recommend to people always, you know, to, to watch Dark to try to get a better understanding of what kind of, you know, spatio-temporal uruberus I'm talking about in Closer Encounters, where human history is nonlinear. And there are all these feedback loops and retrocausal effects going on. And, and essentially that some group of people at some point broke time technologically.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  And that we're dealing with the consequences of that.

• 2:12:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:15Speaker 01

  The conclusion I reached specifically from researching the close encounter phenomenon, when I wrote the book Closer Encounters, and then also looking at it again in terms of intersection of close encounters and afterlife research, which we can get into in a little bit more, you know, high fidelity in, in the book Thanosys, when I expanded the close encounters analysis to include, you know, afterlife research data. And the intersection between near-death experiences, let's say, and abductions, right? The sense that I get is that we're dealing with two different types of intelligence. That we have on the one hand,

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  archantic controllers who are very much akin to the puppeteers in Plato's cave.

• 2:13:02Jesse Michels?

  When you say archantic, like the Archons and Gnostic belief?

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:13:05Jesse Michels?

  That control this sort of lower material world?

• 2:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, Archon just means ruler, okay? So it's like, you know, somebody, an overlord. A group of people who are lording over other people. And who, you know, tyrannically and sadistically are manipulating underlings who they're maybe managing as an asset, harvesting and exploiting in a certain way. Another whole line of research that I get into in Thanosys is Robert Monroe's out-of-body experiences that brought him to the conclusion that we're living on a luge farm, that human beings are being basically farmed and harvested for a kind of psychic energy that intensifies through anguish and fear and terror and intense pleasure and ecstasy and so forth.

• 2:13:53Speaker 01

  And that basically we're inside of a luge factory. And, you know, particularly in the, in the transition between death and rebirth in the afterlife state, humans are sort of harvested for their luge.

• 2:14:04Jesse Michels?

  How did, how did he gather that? I think it was his own sort of out-of-body experience.

• 2:14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, he saw the system.

• 2:14:09Jesse Michels?

  So if our emotions are resources, it's for, for certain beings? What were, what were the beings that were mining us?

• 2:14:16Speaker 01

  These Archons.

• 2:14:17Jesse Michels?

  These Archons?

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they, he believed, Monroe, believed that there was some kind of a demiurge who was, it's very Gnostic, that there was some kind of a demiurge behind all this. And that the demiurge set up this system and basically trapped us here, okay? And so.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  I think we're dealing with two sources. One is this archantic control system where there are these sort of overlords who've got us penned into a kind of loose farm. But then, on the other hand, I see throughout the various cases of Close Encounters, fingerprints or tentacle marks of some other kind of genuinely non-human intelligence, which you could call a superintelligence, you know? So as not to use the word artificial, right? And Trump is all upset about using artificial intelligence. He wants to use superintelligence instead, which is kind of funny. But in a more serious way, there is a legitimate objection to using the word artificial intelligence.

• 2:15:25Speaker 01

  Because if we're in a computational cosmos, and in a sense, our world is actually a technological artifact, then that distinction doesn't make sense anymore between artificial intelligence and a putatively natural intelligence, right? But, you know, for shorthand, a superintelligent AI, I think, could well be behind some of the more bizarre Close Encounters. The types of encounters that John Keel liked to focus on, where you have these plasmatic entities, not to even call them objects. And here, the terminology shift between UFO and UAP is actually valid, because these things aren't objects.

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  They're some kind of, you know, unexplained anomalous phenomena, aerial or from undersea coming into the sky, transmedium anomalous phenomena, that is like, it's of a plasmatic type, like an orb. And then, it can turn into a UFO, but it can also turn from a UFO into a black helicopter. And people have witnessed these things, these transmogrifications. And people have also witnessed things that look like owls shape-shifting into something else, or being too big to really be owls, and, you know, telepathically communicating with them.

• 2:16:45Speaker 01

  Or, you know, mantid beings, who if you go into the history of folklore about mantids, and, you know, what mantids have symbolized in various, yeah, folklores, if not mythologies, you see that that's very potent symbolism. And it was adopted, for example, by the surrealists as a signifier for the trickster and a catalyst for the cultivation of higher intelligence and discernment. But through the use also of deception and the need to cultivate discernment, so as to navigate potential deceptions.

• 2:17:26Jesse Michels?

  I was just with Jacques Vallée, and I was like, you know, if we don't know that much more about, you know, UFOs than we did 50 years ago, at least on the sense-making layer, on the theorizing layer, we have a lot more data and the consensus has sort of shifted, you know, are you happy that you kept going? And he, you know, kind of to your point, said that the UFO field, it's sort of like working out, but with a weight suit on, like it's sort of, you know, extra stress or pressure that then causes you to grow more. And so, the more you, the more you chase it, you know, it's, you're the product, your growth is the product, or something. Which is weird, because, you know, you want some sort of semantic truth at the end of

• 2:18:10Jesse Michels?

  the road, but.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  My issue with Jacques Vallée's massive, you know, magisterial, decades-long treatment of the UFO phenomenon is that he is trying to, basically, develop one comprehensive interpretive framework. And I think there's a danger in conflating this non-human superintelligence that's behind these various transmogrifications and, you know, shape-shifting manifestations, there's

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  a danger of conflating that with an archantic control system, which I think is very real. And actually, what I argue in Closer Encounters is that there's an adversarial relationship between them, that these archantic overlords, who are frankly, I always refer to them as people, because they look like people. And there's no reason to assume they aren't, and this brings us back to Dark, the TV series Dark, is that there's a bunch of people, at the end of time, as it were, right, who are screwing with human history. And I think that's the situation we're actually in. But there's also a non-human intelligence that realizes the value of the human race

• 2:19:33Speaker 01

  for the cosmos, that we humans have a tremendous creative potential to contribute to a struggle against entropy on a cosmic scale. And this entity wants to somehow help us to break out of this control system, so that our creative potential can be liberated on a cosmic scale. Except that, if you, if you think about that problem seriously, you realize that it can't come do it for us. That would be disempowering. It might prevent us from being utterly crushed, and I think there are indications of that. Like, for example, I don't think the Renaissance and the Enlightenment would ever have happened if these Archons were in total control.

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  And, and I also don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, as the Renaissance was rising, you had huge UFO battles over cities like Nuremberg that were recorded in block-print newspapers at the time. I think there was a power struggle between two sources of the Close Encounter phenomenon.

• 2:20:32Jesse Michels?

  So your belief is, because you've talked about this before, you have like a rebel angel faction and all these traditions, and then you have, you know, and they're sort of fighting against God, but on behalf of humanity.

• 2:20:45Speaker 01

  I think God is a construct, I think God is a, it's a construct developed by the archantic control system that's meant to psychically subjugate humanity and basically cause people to enter a kind of, you know, sheepish state of obedience and submission to a tyrannical hierarchical system that ought to be questioned, challenged, and overthrown.

• 2:21:10Jesse Michels?

  I would say the opposite. I would say God is subversive of, you know, human institutional.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  I tell you why I take objection to that.

• 2:21:18Jesse Michels?

  Okay, sure.

• 2:21:19Speaker 01

  I think that what you want to call God

• 2:21:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:22Speaker 01

  is the non-human superintelligence. But that entity is not omniscient, nor is it omnipotent. There's no empirical evidence to suggest that. On the contrary, if you look at its modus operandi and the way in which it seems to be introducing cracks into the system, destabilizing power structures, spinning things in a way that weakens the control of the Archons, it suggests a powerful but finite intelligence that's working very hard to try to augment human agency.

• 2:21:55Jesse Michels?

  Have you seen Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel?

• 2:21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've seen it in person.

• 2:21:59Jesse Michels?

  So you've seen, you know, man and God, Adam and God, you know, touching each other. It's a bidirectional connection. So you reach out, and then God reaches back. And so I think it works sort of more like that, where on your own volition, you seek God, and then God takes note of you, and then it sort of becomes this symbiotic.

• 2:22:21Speaker 01

  The problem with that framing is that God, as he has appeared, especially in the revealed religions, Judeo-Christianity and Islam, is a horrific, sadistic tyrant and abuser. And I could make this case at great length, I do, I spent a whole chapter on it, that's I believe a hundred-page-long chapter in Closer Encounters called The Shining Stupidity. And the reason I call that is has to do with something Charles Fort said. Charles Fort believed this. In his 1920s analysis of the Close Encounter phenomenon, he said, "We're property." And what's going on here is akin to the British Raj, where these colonizers have come set

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  up a local elite, akin to the people who managed India on behalf of the British, right?

• 2:23:07Jesse Michels?

  The viceroys.

• 2:23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, the viceroys. And so our elites, like from the Brahmin of the ancient Hindu system onward to like today's World Commerce Corporation, the elites manage this world on behalf of these overlords, and we're property. And he goes through the religious scriptures, and he is the first one, actually, in modern literature, to point to passages in the Bible and say, "This is a UFO encounter. And by the way, the belief that's being promulgated here is stupid. It's shiningly stupid."

• 2:23:35Jesse Michels?

  I would say that the material world is full of evil and sort of illusory kind of, you know, temptation.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:44Jesse Michels?

  And things that, you know, and very oppressive things, and power structures that aren't, you know, very, very fair or noble. And then, if you think of God as sort of, you know, transcending that and outside of that, and this maybe being somewhat of a test, where, you know, if we are able to, again, point out that, that sort of finger, and then we get the kind of bidirectional connection, and, and we can sort of pass the test, and it's sort of like, you know, in the Platonic model, we can, we can, we can glimpse the light.

• 2:24:14Speaker 01

  I see the test, I do believe there's a test. I see the test very differently. I think it's an intelligence test and a test of ethos, and that the tester is, I argue in, in Closer Encounters, and then also actually in my study of Iran, Iranian Leviathan, that the, the Book of Job needs to be sort of read esoterically, where the test is actually for you not to be as much of a, you know, submissive, basically.

• 2:24:52Speaker 01

  Pathetically obedient person as Job and to realize that the torments that he's been put through are absolutely unjustified and that when in the end, God says to Job, you know, your friends are wrong to try to look for a rationale for my actions and to try to identify what it is that you did wrong for me to put you through these trials. I did what I did to you because I can. And if you had the power that I have, you could do it to me. But in fact, I'm the one with the stronger right hand. And it's basically a statement of the will to power. And so I think that the test is to read that book

• 2:25:33Speaker 01

  properly to the point where it brings you to want to rebel against that kind of tyranny and to not be spiritually submissive in the way that Job is. So I see the tester as being the non-human superintelligence outside of the control system that produced the revealed religions or that produced the ancient Hindu caste system and that the finger that reaches out is is reaching out toward this sort of like, let's say, valice, this vast, you know, living intelligence system and that the connection there is a connection that expresses itself in rebellions, paradigm shifts, artistic innovations that actually hold the potential for us to transcend the existing large scale religious belief systems.

• 2:26:18Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's why can't you, it's always alluring whenever I speak to you. Oh, my God, I'm buying a lot of it. But when you take the book of Job, for example, why can't you just take that at face value? Why can't it just be Lucifer went to God and said, I'm going to test Job through, you know, with all these trials and tribulations that I'm going to put him through. So it was really Lucifer that wanted all of this bad and to sort of befall Job.

• 2:26:41Speaker 01

  It makes no sense, Jesse. Listen, like, what kind of God, because we're gonna, we're gonna accept an omniscient and omnipotent God, right?

• 2:26:47Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:48Speaker 01

  The devil comes to him, Pashetan, right? This Job only worships you because, you know, you've given him such an easy life and blessed him with a wonderful family and property and so forth. Why don't you let me mess him up a bit, you know, and then let's see if he still worships you, right? What kind of an ethical God allows a devil to get away with something like that?

• 2:27:13Jesse Michels?

  It's like, it's like a parent that says, okay, learn this lesson on your own.

• 2:27:17Speaker 01

  That parent should be put in an institution. Well, that's like, that's the most horrendously abusive parent. If you read what's done to Job and to his family and his kids are killed, that's like the parent who, you know, these, these bi-proxy Munchausen like mothers and shit who should put, put in a fucking institution. So when you look at specific passages in New Testament, there are, there are lines that are describing Jesus being picked up by UFOs and ferried around as if he's, he's riding in them like they're a taxi service. I mean, you know,

• 2:27:50Jesse Michels?

  There's, I think there's one passage you're referring to in the book of Acts where he goes up on the cloud.

• 2:27:55Speaker 01

  No, there's multiple passages. There's, there's, of course, the famous baptism one, you know, where John the Baptist, right, is baptizing Jesus in the Jordan River. And then this basically fixed wing craft comes, which is described as flying akin to a dove. In other words, it doesn't flap its wings. It's a fixed wing craft and it hovers directly over Jesus and then he's pulled up into it and taken off into the desert to so be tested. And there's another one where he's been put in the tomb. There are these centurions on guard outside of the tomb. And this UFO comes and it deposits these beautiful men in front

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  of the, the door to the tomb and they roll the rock aside and go in and take Jesus from out of this tomb. And he's got like one arm around each of them. They're supporting him. And the centurion's witness, the, the three of them basically levitated up into this light.

• 2:28:59Jesse Michels?

  Who do you think these beautiful men are that come out of this?

• 2:29:01Speaker 01

  Nordic Archonic Controllers.

• 2:29:03Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:29:04Speaker 01

  Okay. So I think that that's part of the control system and the, to speak to the healing specifically.

• 2:29:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  There were various, you know, basically Pythagorean Hellenistic magicians at work in the world at that time who did these kinds of things. The most famous of them being Apollonius of Tiana. And we have a whole, like, two-volume book written by Philostratus, a notable Roman author, about Apollonius of Tiana and all the miracles he performed, which are exactly the same type of, you know, exercises of paranormal ability that we see in the case of Jesus, except that this Apollonius is actually teaching a coherent, you know, neo-Pythagorean philosophy rather than this incoherent nonsense we see in the Gospels.

• 2:29:53Jesse Michels?

  I don't know if it's incoherent. It's like, love your man as your, as yourself, you know, love your fellow man.

• 2:29:59Speaker 01

  Well, we can leave it to the subjective judgment of the viewers.

• 2:30:02Jesse Michels?

  Fair enough.

• 2:30:03Speaker 01

  But I, but I really would recommend, I have a 100-page chapter in Closer Encounters analyzing the scriptures, not just Judeo-Christianity, but also, you know, Hindu scriptures.

• 2:30:15Jesse Michels?

  Can I, can I ask you something very, very simply? Because all of this is so fascinating and you weave such a, you know, an eloquent argument here. But I think about neurotic intellectual types and I would probably bucket myself into, you know, that category at times.

• 2:30:31Speaker 01

  You're, you're only very mildly neurotic.

• 2:30:34Jesse Michels?

  Only mildly neurotic, but you know what I mean? Like, people who seek truth on the semantic layer. And then I think about God fearing people who go to church or synagogue or mosque or whatever, and they pray to God and they are, they just feel way happier than the former category.

• 2:30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, cattle are also happy. Until they're slaughtered.

• 2:30:56Jesse Michels?

  Well, so, whoa. I don't know. I think, I don't think that's submissive. I think that it's adhering to or aspiring to things that go beyond the material world. And so I think you're, you're anchoring something on the transcendent.

• 2:31:13Speaker 01

  Especially when you look at the history of the persecution of people who cultivated and displayed psychic ability, there is an inverse relationship between the cultivation of higher consciousness and the dominance of the Abrahamic religions. Dean Raden studied this at Ions and he found that the, the witch persecutions and the execution of sorcerers in the Middle Ages was so bad that there is less psychic ability in European populations as compared to other parts of the world because there is a genetic correlate to strong psi ability that has to do with a certain part of the brain, the, the development of the basal ganglia.

• 2:31:54Jesse Michels?

  Caudal nucleus.

• 2:31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, as an expression of a certain, you know, a certain genotype. And so they went around and basically rounded, rounded up, persecuted and exterminated so many adept psychic people who are practitioners of various, you know, magical and occult, including within Christianity. In other words, there would be esoteric systems that developed within the establishment of Christianity.

• 2:32:23Jesse Michels?

  So it's not just the happy people that get slaughtered. It's, you know,

• 2:32:27Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. Look, the happy people by that, what I meant is that they're in a loose farming system and the slaughter happens after death. In other words,

• 2:32:36Jesse Michels?

  Aren't you depriving the Archons of the loose if you're just happy and God fearing?

• 2:32:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:32:41Jesse Michels?

  Isn't the loose explicitly sort of meant to be mining bad vibes? And so if you're like one of these happy-go-lucky, like, I believe in God and you're praying and stuff, isn't that, isn't that more adaptive and you're depriving the Archons?

• 2:32:55Speaker 01

  Okay, first, first of all, no, because there's all kinds of, you know, small miseries and torments, mundane miseries and torments in people's lives that generate plenty of and excitements that generate plenty of loose in an otherwise overall happy life of general submissiveness. However, you, you do have a point in so far as attempting to rebel against such a comprehensive system generates a tremendous amount of energy.

• 2:33:24Speaker 01

  And that energy can also be parasitically harvested within a loose farming system. Until and unless the system is defeated and overthrown and dismantled. Okay. So in a way, I think you have a point, but the aim would be to just dismantle the whole loose harvesting system. Okay. And that requires a tremendous amount of motivation and energy. Anyway, my point is that, you know, what you're laying out here doesn't make sense in terms of, you know, religion, conventional religious practice as a means of anchoring oneself for the development of higher consciousness and the psychical cultivation. That is not corroborated by the vast historical evidence for mass persecutions and extermination

• 2:34:09Speaker 01

  of people who cultivated above average siability and, you know, which has left a genetic imprint on European populations.

• 2:34:17Jesse Michels?

  So I do think that has historically been this horrible thing where, yeah, shamanic figures or figures who seem to sort of have some transcendent tether to, you know, almost like a different epistemological circuitry, they get persecuted for sure. But I wouldn't say that the sort of God fearing, you know, average people are necessarily the ones persecuting them. It's often these power structures that set themselves up as intermediaries between man and God.

• 2:34:47Speaker 01

  Where are the angels to intervene in that? They intervene so many times throughout the course of biblical history, right? In very direct ways. I mean, you look at the book of Ezekiel. There are like, I don't know, 15, 18 different like UFOs that show up in the book of Ezekiel. People always talk about one or two of them, but there are many. There's constant intervention that's recorded throughout the Bible. Okay. And that history of intervention continues, you know, in the Middle Ages with a plethora of UFO encounters. It got so bad in the reign of Charlemagne that, you know, edicts were being passed against the tyrants of the air. And so, you know, they seem to be very busy engineering

• 2:35:32Speaker 01

  the affairs of this world. You would think if in the name of Jesus Christ, whole towns were being exterminated, as they were in the south of France, these angels would have something to say about it.

• 2:35:42Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think, I think the abuses going on are just, it's also sort of removing culpability for just the people. It's the people who, they say they're doing it in the name of God, who are just, you know, killing the high si people or whatever, that, you know, they're calling them witches or, you know, psychics or whatever. It's just those people's faults, you know, and it's not, it has nothing to do with a higher God. You know, they're saying that they're doing it in the name of that higher God, but they're not.

• 2:36:11Speaker 01

  Because there's scripture that justifies that thou shall not suffer a witch to live.

• 2:36:15Jesse Michels?

  Thou shall not kill.

• 2:36:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. Cognitive dissonance.

• 2:36:21Jesse Michels?

  I'm just saying.

• 2:36:22Speaker 01

  It's, for a moral system, it's garbage.

• 2:36:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but, but you consider yourself a Satanist, right?

• 2:36:31Speaker 01

  No, I'm a philosopher.

• 2:36:32Jesse Michels?

  A philosopher. Okay. But you're on the side of the rebel angels?

• 2:36:35Speaker 01

  Look, it is a romantic and inspiring and catalytic myth, which captivated people like Shelley and Byron. And, you know, I think it's constructive. Ultimately, I have no religious commitment whatsoever. I'm interested in understanding the nature of reality. And

• 2:37:02Jesse Michels?

  Me too.

• 2:37:03Speaker 01

  And I'm interested in progress and innovation. In other words, my ultimate aim is to contribute to neg entropy, right? So, so it's not a neutral search for truth. It's a search for truth that aims to be constructive or productive.

• 2:37:25Jesse Michels?

  On that cheery note, it's always fun to talk to you, Jason. It's, it's really, your knowledge is just so, so incredible. And the Puharic stuff is just so wild. And I don't know, I learned so much from you every time I speak to you. Some of it, not so savory knowledge. It's often forbidden knowledge, but, you know, I have an interest in a lot of the same things you do. So it's always, it's always fun. And I appreciate you visiting us in Austin.

• 2:37:50Speaker 01

  It's been a great pleasure, Jesse. Thank you for the invitation, especially to your studio.

• 2:37:55Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. It's an honor.

• 2:38:30Speaker 03

  When you're building a company, you learn that trust is what closes deals. You may have the best product, but buyers won't sign without proof that your product is secure, especially if it has AI. Vanta gets you compliant fast with SOC 2, ISO 27001 and more, and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring. Hyperbound, a YC-backed startup, used Vanta to unlock the Fortune 100 in under a year. Snowfire got audit ready in a month and closed a multimillion dollar deal. Trust matters. Get started at vanta.com. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch

• 2:39:11Speaker 03

  you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com/switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 2:39:28Speaker 04

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:40:00Speaker 07

  You sound horrible. Oh, I feel worse. This flu is not playing around. Dad, you promised you'd be in my band and it's showtime. Then it's Dayquil Intense Flu time. For fast and powerful relief of your flu symptoms, try Dayquil Intense Flu. Hit it. Yeah. Dayquil Intense Flu, the fast acting daytime coughing, aching, aching, aching fever power through your flu medicine. Use is directed, keep out of reach of children. Stonefire naan is made with real buttermilk and ghee. It's the perfect flatbread for any occasion. I put out Stonefire naan with dips at every dinner party. I make naan grilled cheese when my daughter has friends over. I use Stonefire naan to reward the humans who do my bidding. Right. It's perfect for camping trips.

• 2:40:45Speaker 07

  Dance for it, feeble mortal. Sorry, is he talking to me or? Dance. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire. Together we naan.