Olga Khazan on The Science and Promise of Personality Change | EP 667

In this episode of Passion Struck, John R. Miles is joined by Olga Khazan, staff writer at The Atlantic and author of Me, But Better, for a transformative conversation about the science and promise of personality change. For much of the 20th century, psychologists assumed that our personalities were largely fixed by adulthood — that who we are at 30 is who we’ll be for life. But Olga’s work brings together groundbreaking research proving that personality traits can, in fact, be intentionally shaped. If you’ve ever wondered, “Can I really change who I am?” this episode is your evidence-based invitation to try. Visit this link for the full show notesGo Deeper: The Ignited Life SubstackIf this episode stirred something in you, The Ignited Life is where the transformation continues. Each week, I share behind-the-scenes insights, science-backed tools, and personal reflections to help you turn intention into action. Subscribe🔗 and get the companion resources delivered straight to your inbox. Catch more of Olga Khazan: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/olga-khazan/If you liked the show, please leave us a review—it only takes a moment and helps us reach more people! Don’t forget to include your Twitter or Instagram handle so we can thank you personally. Get the full companion workbook at TheIgnitedLife.netFull episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@JohnRMilesListen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcastsEveryone deserves to feel valued and important. Show it by wearing it: https://startmattering.com/Connect with John Pre-Order The Mattering Effect: https://matteringeffect.com/Book John to Speak: https://johnrmiles.com/speaking/Keynotes, books, podcast, and resources: https://linktr.ee/John_R_MilesChildren’s Book — You Matter, Luma: https://youmatterluma.com/Substack: https://www.theignitedlife.net/Support the Movement: https://startmattering.com/. Every human deserves to feel seen, valued, and like they matter. Wear it. Live it. Show it. DisclaimerThe Passion Struck podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of Passion Struck or its affiliates. This podcast is not a substitute for professional medical or psychological advice.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  From kickoff to the final whistle, trade the biggest moments in football on Kalshi, America's number one prediction market platform. Kansas City takes on defending champions Seattle, currently trading at 41% to win. A $100 trade pays out $244 if they come out on top. Download Kalshi, use code HOOPS to get $25 when you trade $25. K A L S H I. Kalshi, trade what's next. 18 plus only. Restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Kalshi products are not available in all jurisdictions. Prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see kalshi.com/ regulatory.

• 0:36Speaker 01

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• 1:06Speaker 02

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• 1:37John R. Miles?

  Coming up next on Passion Struck.

• 1:39Speaker 04

  You can try very hard. You can do everything in your power to try to get a certain outcome, but you can't ultimately control the outcome. Like you have to let go at a certain point and let the cards fall where they may. And to me, that was really freeing because I had lived my whole life thinking that if I didn't control the outcome and I didn't have the outcome that I wanted, that it was my personal fault and I should have done things differently. But I could just, I don't know, it's like nice to know that like. Other people also have this struggle and have realized that at a certain point, yeah, you can try, you can work on a political campaign, super duper hard, and then come election day, they might pick the other guy. And that's just part of life.

• 2:22John R. Miles?

  Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now, let's go out there and become passion struck.

• 3:05John R. Miles?

  Welcome to episode 667, and I'm so glad you've joined us. Whether you're a longtime listener or brand new, welcome. Over a third of you come back week after week, which tells me Passion Struck isn't just another podcast. Together, we're passing the ripple of mattering farther than we ever imagined. If this show has ever helped you see yourself more clearly, or take one small step toward healing, here's how you can help keep it growing. First, share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. Second, leave a five star rating or review on Apple or Spotify. That small act tells the algorithm that these stories matter and helps more people define them. Before we dive in, I want to let you in on

• 3:47John R. Miles?

  a little secret. We've been working on a project behind the scenes that will take Passion Struck far beyond the podcast. It's going to give you new ways to engage with these ideas, apply them in your own life and with your families, and spread them into your communities. I can't reveal it just yet, but the announcement is coming very, very soon. You're going to want to be here when we share it. We also just relaunched the Start Mattering Store, where you can wear your why. Every piece was designed to move with you. Last Through the years and whisper every time you put it on, you matter, your story matters, your choices ripple. Find your new favorite piece at startmattering.com. And don't forget,

• 4:29John R. Miles?

  the Passion Struck Network is officially live, a creator-first ecosystem built around mattering, not metrics. If you want voices that inspire transformation, not just consumption, explore what's next at passionstrucknetwork.com. Now, let's talk about where we are in our Decoding Humanity series. This series is about understanding what makes us human, the forces that shape how we live, love, work, and belong. Over the past few weeks, we've gone on quite a journey together. Last Tuesday, Sheryl McKesick-Daniel took us through her family's five-generation story, showing us how legacy can be both built and carried forward with intention. On Thursday, evolutionary psychologist Bill von Hippel helped us uncover

• 5:10John R. Miles?

  why connection is not just a nice-to-have, but a core survival need baked into our biology. And in my solo episode last Friday, I introduced the Choice Framework, a tool to help you reclaim your agency, align with your values, and take ownership of the life you're building. Today's conversation is the next natural step. Joining me is Olga Khazan, staff writer for The Atlantic and author of "Me But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change." If Sheryl showed us the power of honoring where we come from, and Bill explained why connection is essential, Olga shows us how you change your mind for the better. In today's conversation, we explore the groundbreaking research showing that personality is more

• 5:52John R. Miles?

  malleable than we once believed. We dive into Olga's own experiment to become more extroverted, and what it taught her about identity. We explore how to distinguish between becoming someone else and becoming you but better, and practical steps you can take to shift traits like confidence, resilience, and emotional stability in ways that improve your life. If you've ever felt stuck in patterns that don't serve you, or wondered if it's really possible to change who you are, this episode is for you. Remember, if you want to apply Olga's episode to your life, join us at theignitedlife.net and get the companion workbook and detailed posts for this episode. Now, let's dive into the science and promise of

• 6:33John R. Miles?

  personality change with Olga Kazan. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  From kickoff to the final whistle, trade the biggest moments in football on Kalshi, America's number one prediction market platform. Kansas City takes on defending champions Seattle, currently trading at 41% to win. A $100 trade pays out $244 if they come out on top. Download Kalshi, use code HOOPS to get $25 when you trade $25. K A L S H I. Kalshi, trade what's next. 18 plus only. Restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Kalshi products are not available in all jurisdictions. Prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see kalshi.com/ regulatory.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  It's the moment that I describe in the beginning of the book, which is, I had this day of a series of minor frustrations. I got a really bad haircut and I went to go get my photo taken and the photos looked really bad. And then I got stuck in traffic and made a wrong turn and led me to get even further stuck in traffic. And then I had this thing, you know, when you go grocery shopping and the cart is out of range and so it locks up. For some reason, it locked my cart when I was still like 50 feet from my car. So I had to drag this shopping cart across the parking lot with its locked wheels. I was sweating this whole time because it's in Miami. All while this is happening, my boss is slacking me questions

• 8:11Speaker 04

  about a story that's going through edits. And I just lose it. I get back to the Airbnb where we're staying and I just start crying and chugging wine and saying, I hate everyone and everything. And it just made me realize that I have a tendency to get so bogged down by minor frustrations, like the little things in life that don't go according to plan, that it keeps me from seeing the forest from the trees. It keeps me from appreciating my life, experiencing joy, even just having a fine day, because if one little thing goes wrong, I would totally fall to pieces.

• 8:45John R. Miles?

  Yeah. Well, you describe yourself as a quote unquote pressure addict. Can you take us a little bit into what a typical day in your life looked like before you ran this experiment?

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Yes, but I will say that my life has actually gotten more stressful since I wrote the book because I had a baby. And so now my life is just nonstop stress, whereas before it was just mostly stressful. But I basically woke up, had chronic insomnia and I still do. And so I would toss and turn all night and then wake up in time for work. And then I would work pretty much from nine to six, cook and eat dinner. And then in the evening I would just do more work, basically. And I was always trying to move my career forward or get to the next level. And I was doing this up to the exclusion of anything else, like including having a community or any friendships or anything hobbies, like anything going on that wasn't work. I basically just didn't do.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  And I started to realize after a while that wasn't totally healthy.

• 9:44John R. Miles?

  A lot of what I talk about on this show is our fundamental need to matter and how so many people around the world now are experiencing the opposite of that. And I think a lot of it has to do when we lose our connections to those communities that you were just talking about. Why do you think they're so important?

• 10:05Speaker 04

  I think it just helps you feel seen and feel like a person in the world. One of the people that I talked to for my book, Gillian Sandstrom, she studies the power of weak ties. So these are people who are not actually your best friends. They're people you kind of chit chat with or make small talk with throughout the day. And even though you might not think there's much to that, like you might not think there's much to saying hi to your Starbucks person or your mail guy or whatever. Those little small moments and connections really do matter. We're not really evolved to be like these individuals staring at screens all day and not talking to anyone. Like we are evolved to live in community to some extent. And it's important to feel woven into the social fabric to at least a little bit.

• 10:52John R. Miles?

  I think a lot of us want to improve how we feel about ourselves. But you went down the path of trying to redesign who you actually were, and that's a radical leap. Why did you come to the conclusion that was even possible? Because a lot of people, once you get past a certain age, think it's impossible to change.

• 11:14Speaker 04

  So a lot of the things that we might want to change about ourselves, like making more friends, becoming more organized, becoming more up for new adventures and experiences, or learning how to be more relaxed or less anxious, those actually are all forms of personality change. There's five traits that make up personality, and we're all on a spectrum of each of these traits. And so moving a little bit along a certain trait can really make a big difference in how you approach life, the kinds of things you're willing to expose yourself to, and ultimately, how happy you are. So really, it's really hard to change your life or change yourself without actually changing your personality.

• 11:53John R. Miles?

  Well, I want to come back to the traits in a second, but William James famously said that our personality sets like plaster, the words he used, by the age of 30. Why do you think that myth that William James talked about is held so tightly by people?

• 12:09Speaker 04

  Right, it is a myth. More recent studies found that people do change after they're 30. And actually, as I write in my book, William James himself changed after he was 30. He overcame this depression that had plagued him his entire life and started to write some of his best work after he turned 30. So even he didn't really live up to that. I think, though, there is a comfort in feeling like we'll never change. Like, I feel like it limits the number of things that you're putting yourself out there for. You know what I mean? It's, oh, I don't need to make more friends, or I don't need to try for that job, or I don't need to start a workout plan because I'll never change. And that can almost be a little bit reassuring. The whole world needs to accommodate me. I'm not going to do anything differently.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  And even if it's maladaptive, it can feel safer to feel that we'll never change.

• 12:56John R. Miles?

  About four years ago, I interviewed this gentleman Nate Dukes. Nate had graduated college, started, co-founded a startup and found himself in this position where he had more money, more comforts than he ever had in his life before. And he started to experiment with drugs and get into bad communities. And it all culminated with him stealing a car and then getting caught sleeping in it as he had crossed borders from where he lived into Tennessee. And so he was sent to jail as a result. And he told me coming out of it that so many people told him, you'll never change.

• 13:39John R. Miles?

  You're stuck in who you are. And he told me that his journey from that, and now he's become a youth pastor, he's an author, he's completely evolved his life. But he said that what he realized is that the beauty of finding yourself at the deepest low point that you can think of is you get to build your life back brick by brick. And do you think that analogy holds true?

• 14:04Speaker 04

  I love that story and I'm so glad that he believed that he could change. But you see this all the time. My book actually has really resonated with people in recovery. I think because of that same principle, because they really do have to rebuild their lives brick by brick. Like they really do famously hit rock bottom and then they have to change all of their friends and they have to go about their daily life differently, find new hobbies, new ways of getting meaning from their lives. But I actually think you can do this without hitting rock bottom. Like you can just feel like, I feel a little stuck. Like maybe you're in a part of your career where it's just not as fulfilling as it used to be. It's not horrible, but it's not like the best thing ever. You're not like super excited about it anymore.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  And what would really help you get to the next level is becoming a better public speaker or a better manager or more of a people person. That's an increase in the trade of extroversion that doesn't really have to be that extreme in order for it to make a pretty big difference and allow you to get to a different type of job or a different type of career. So while it can be helpful to hit rock bottom and have this come to Jesus moment, you can also just look at your life and think, what do I really want that I'm holding myself back from?

• 15:16John R. Miles?

  One of the things that you focus on in the book is a 2019 study that was done by psychologist Nathan Hudson and three of his colleagues. And they designed a tool. I thought maybe you could share a little bit about that tool and how it's helped people perform personality-altering new behaviors.

• 15:36Speaker 04

  So this was a study called "You Have to Follow Through," which all these psychology studies have like titles that are cheesy in my view, but it just, what it's trying to get at is that you have to actually perform the behaviors of the kind of personality that you'd like to have, rather than just think about it and be like, "I wish I was the kind of person who would go running every day," or whatever. And so what he would do is, he asked his study participants to select various traits that they wanted to change. So a lot of them wanted to change on extroversion, they wanted to become more extroverted, and a fair amount also wanted to become less neurotic, so they wanted to become less depressed and anxious, as many people do.

• 16:16Speaker 04

  And then he would assign them daily challenges or tasks that they could do in order to work on those traits. So it would be like, say hi to someone, have coffee with someone new, going up to organizing your own meetup group for a bunch of strangers. For some of the neuroticism ones, it would be something like meditate, do yoga, go for a walk, or even some like more cognitive suggestions, like journaling, or trying to think about your problems differently, like some of the stuff you do in cognitive behavioral therapy. And so after, I think it was like 10 weeks or 12 weeks, he really did see changes in his participants' personalities based on their ability to do these tasks and actually

• 17:00Speaker 04

  follow through on what they said they wanted their personalities to look like. So that kind of gives us the idea that this can work in the real world, and people who want to change their personalities in a certain direction can actually do that. Now, the caveat is that his study, though anyone can read it, it's on his website, nathanhudson.com. You have to like go through the whole PDF and get to the index and read all the challenges yourself in order to know what they are. I described some of them in my book, but unfortunately, we don't yet have an iPhone app or something where anyone can do this relatively easily.

• 17:34John R. Miles?

  I want to talk a little bit more about this introvert extrovert difference because like you, I'm an introvert. And I remember for the longest time, as I got into the military first, and then my professional career, I would often wonder what's wrong with me because I was so different from many of my peers who were socially engaging and full of life. And I was more introspective and wanted to do research more than converse in these long meetings. And I learned how to be an extrovert, but I found it extremely tiring. Did you ever experience that yourself?

• 18:17Speaker 04

  So I did. I have the same thing. I still identify as an introvert. I think I need a little bit more extroversion in my life than I initially thought. But yeah, after a two and a half hour improv class, I was ready to go home and like collapse in bed and not be talking anymore. There's one psychologist who I interviewed, Brian Little, who has this concept called free traits, which is essentially that we can all try on a personality trait for a certain period of time or for a certain purpose that's important to us. For him, like you, it was extroversion. Like, he's a very introverted college professor, but when he talks to his students, he wants to be really engaging and animated. And so he will put on an extroversion cloak and be like,

• 18:59Speaker 04

  I'm extroverted and give a really compelling presentation. And it works. Like, he really feels like an extrovert during that time. Now afterward, he feels really tired and he has to revert back to what he calls a restorative niche, which just means letting yourself introvert out for a little while because you did it, you put yourself out there, you use those extroversion skills. But then let yourself restore, let yourself read, or be by yourself, or do whatever it is you need to do to feel replenished. Because none of us are going to change so much that you want to be extroverted all the time.

• 19:33John R. Miles?

  I remember when my kids were growing up, they're now, both of them are either in college or out of college. But I remember when I was in your stage of life, I would come home from work and having pretended to be an extrovert all day, I would just be emotionally exhausted. And it was tough because my wife, at the time, had been with the kids all day and so she needed a break. And so I remember coming home and immediately the burden of parenting fell on me, which of course I wanted to do, but oftentimes it was difficult to switch from one mode to the other without any ability to decompress in between the two. I tried to do so on my commute

• 20:16John R. Miles?

  home, but oftentimes it was difficult because I was still getting calls from work or I was still thinking about problems of the day. What do you suggest for people who are facing that same type of dilemma?

• 20:28Speaker 04

  So I definitely have the same problem where like I wake up, you're woken up from a dead sleep by someone demanding that you be extroverted. Then you're extroverted all day as a journalist and then you are extroverted all night because you have a toddler. And then it's like, yeah. So I would first of all, plan really restorative activities for you for when you're not with your kids. For me, it's like getting massages and doing yoga, which is like no talking, like just like stretching out my muscles and like trying to get rid of some of the back pain. So for me, that's really restorative. I would also maybe build in more restorative moments throughout the day. It sounds with a job like that, not everyone can like craft it perfectly this way,

• 21:08Speaker 04

  but maybe some periods of deep work or a long walk where you're maybe still thinking about work or thinking through something, but you're not in a Zoom all day. I think like that, what you shared speaks to me that like you're actually in like this extroverted burnout where it's like too much extroversion. It's really hard to ask your kids to dial it down a little bit, like at various ages, they just can't. Sometimes my husband and I, what we'll do if we're not, if we're like feeling like we can't like sing Baby Beluga one more time, we'll just go for a walk with him. Go for a long walk in nature, in the stroller. And that way, like he's looking around, he's having fun, we're walking, no one has to be on. I would just try to build in more of those

• 21:52Speaker 04

  moments throughout the day because it can be really taxing. You're right.

• 21:56John R. Miles?

  Don't go anywhere. We'll return in just a moment with more from Olga Kazan. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. This is Passion Struck on the Passion Struck Network.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  From kickoff to the final whistle, trade the biggest moments in football on Kalshi, America's number one prediction market platform. Kansas City takes on defending champions Seattle. Currently trading at 41% to win, a $100 trade pays out $244 if they come out on top. Download Kalshi, use code HOOPS to get $25 when you trade $25. K A L S H I. Kalshi, trade what's next. 18 plus only. Restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Kalshi products are not available in all jurisdictions. Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see kalshi.com/ regulatory.

• 22:51John R. Miles?

  And now, let's get back to my conversation with Olga. So one of the things that I feel like I'm good at, but I've always had to overcome stage fright about is public speaking. And when my book was going to be published in 2024, I knew I was going to be doing a lot more public speaking. So I started to try to get back into what I call fear exercises to get myself prepared for that. So one thing I did was get myself back into doing Toastmasters so I could get some practice in front of being in others. But like you, another thing I decided to do was to start doing improv.

• 23:29John R. Miles?

  And I remember I started out with short form and then I, once I did that for a few years, I got into long form. But I remember the first class I ever went to, they had us, I'm not sure what your classes were like, but they had us do these warm up exercises, like playful exercises. And the first one we did, Was she played music, had us walk around the room and like we're dancing and then she stopped the music and she said, you now have to stare at the person in front of you for 10 minutes without saying anything and try to convey thoughts to them. And the person in front of me was about 20 years younger than me. And I'll tell you, that was one of the most uncomfortable

• 24:14John R. Miles?

  10 minutes of my life. It felt like 10 years.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:18John R. Miles?

  Did you run into anything like that while you were playing?

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. So improv is so good for exposing you to just the most uncomfortable moments you'll ever feel. I had so many. I'm trying to think. Okay. So one is we were all wearing masks because it was still like, it was 2021 or 22. Like we were all, it was still very like pandemic era, my improv class. And it actually made it hard to hear. And as an improv, it's all about reading the person's facial expression and trying to pick up on what they're going to do next, based on like, kind of what they look like. And we couldn't really do that with the bottom half of their face. So you're always like looking in their eyes. Or one time, like someone just like totally misheard what I said. And I was like, I don't know if he's like improv-ing in his own direction, or if he just misheard me and do I correct

• 25:03Speaker 04

  him? That was really awkward. And just like a million situations where you're not sure, like typical improv stuff where you're like, just not sure how, where else the scene should go, or where. There was also a warm-up game that we played that I really hated, that I now don't even remember the name of, but it involved a lot of staring in people's eyes. And it actually made me really uncomfortable. Like I was, I realized that I actually don't like that much eye contact. And I actually asked if we could just not play it anymore. Because I was like, this is like, so unsettling. But yeah, part of improv is to roll with the extreme awkwardness sometimes and realize that like, life can be really awkward and nothing bad really happens.

• 25:44John R. Miles?

  Yes. First, I really struggled because I was trying to perform instead of just relax and go with it and be natural. And what really helped me was a class I was taking was being taught by a person who was an actor who had been in a number of films. But one of the participants in the class was a fairly well-known Hollywood actress. And I realized she was struggling as much as everyone else, because it really does take you out of your comfort zone. And when I saw her struggling, I realized if she's having trouble with this, it's okay that I am too. And it just made me relax and pull the walls down. And once I did that, I started to intuitively

• 26:30John R. Miles?

  start understanding better what was happening in the scene. So I could learn to think ahead, even though sometimes you can't. But it got me prepared. So I was able to at least formulate thoughts before I had to say them. Did you ever have moments like that?

• 26:46Speaker 04

  I felt like, actually, the best scenes that I had was when I stopped trying to control them as much. And I stepped back and let the other person take over. It's funny, I was recently on a bunch of LA podcasts, and I tried to share that I was that I took an improv class for this book. And when I tell DC people, they're like, whoa, I could never do that. And in LA, they're like, and? Like, I'm in like, four improv groups. Because I feel like everyone's trying to be an actor out there. But I had one where like, I was with this guy who was like, an accounting professor, and he was reserved. And I'd never been in a scene with him, and I wasn't sure what to think. And we were in a scene where we were packing for a trip

• 27:26Speaker 04

  together was like, the conceit of the scene. And we were both circling like, this idea that we were going to bring something really strange on this trip with us. But like, neither of us were really thinking of what the strange object would be. And so we were like, yeah, did you bring it? And we were like, and I was like, yeah, I packed it. Like, we can't go on the trip without it. And he said, yeah, the trip would be ruined if we didn't have our thing. And like, eventually, like, one of us had to say what it was, because it had been going on for so long. And he came up with a doll that you punch, and it comes back at you.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  I don't even know what they're called, but for some reason, it was just like so funny, because it's first of all, not something you would take on a trip and also like unexpected coming from him and the buildup of us like clearly not knowing what this thing is that we were talking about was so like extreme that I think, I don't know, it made the payoff a lot better than if I had been like, it's the super wacky outfits or like whatever, tried to settle it before it was time. I don't know, maybe a lesson in there about control and its limits.

• 28:33John R. Miles?

  I think one of the things that people struggle with is this whole concept of future self. And a couple of years ago, I was lucky enough to have both Benjamin Hardy and then in short order, Hal Hershfield on the show because they both had written books on future self psychology. But one thing you talk about yourself is this idea of episodic future thinking, which has been shown to promote a variety of consciousness related behaviors. For a listener who might not be familiar with episodic future thinking, can you share what that is and why it's so important in helping us find our future self?

• 29:11Speaker 04

  Conscientiousness is the trait that's like getting things done. It's like being super organized, being timely, checking things off your to do list. The people who already know how to do this kind of already know how to do it. And the people who don't know how to do this are like, aren't sure how to get there. It's because a lot of those tasks of conscientiousness are very tedious. So if you think about it, it's great to be like an organized person who runs every day at 5:30 a.m. and then drinks a green smoothie and then is always on time to the meetings and knows exactly where the paperwork is and everything. But the way that they get through their day is a little bit boring. Like they wake up at five, they don't eat a McChicken sandwich in the morning. They have all their papers organized and they probably have spent some time doing that.

• 29:56Speaker 04

  They probably have a to do list that they made. And so one thing that can help people who like, don't find that very compelling or like rewarding, actually go through those motions is to envision what your life will look like once you've accomplished those tedious little tasks of conscientiousness. So let's say you have a big work presentation that you're working on. And it's really tedious, like making these slides or writing this memo is just really boring. I had this when I was formatting my footnotes for my book. It's just not a glamorous task and it doesn't, it's not fun at all. And you just have to grind your way through it. And like for me, what really helped and what episodic future thinking is like envisioning,

• 30:39Speaker 04

  what is that end stage going to look like? And then I'll be done, but and then all my footnotes will look amazing and the book will look so good when I have it in my hands and my publisher will be so happy and everyone will be thrilled with how great these footnotes are. And I won't get any mean little Goodreads reviews about how the footnotes don't all line up or something like that. And it can work in various ways. It can be something that's like avoiding a negative or promoting a positive. But it's like this big illustration of your end goal that you're connecting all of these little tedious tasks to in order to grit your way through them essentially, because that's what a lot of it is, like a lot of really fun and awesome things require a lot of intermediary steps that are not fun or awesome, if that makes sense.

• 31:25John R. Miles?

  It does make sense. As I look back upon my career, a lot of times people will ask me, how were you able to do these things? And maybe it might help for you to understand my background. I came out of the military, went into industry as a management consultant, then went into Fortune 500 companies and I had positions as chief information security officer, head of application development, head of operations, CIO, and eventually became a chief operating officer, CEO. And so a lot of people want to know, like, how were you able to do such a diverse, varied group of roles?

• 32:08John R. Miles?

  And I use the mentality that I always felt that I could learn my way into a role and to accept the challenge. And it's something that you call fake it until you become it. As I look back, sometimes I'm surprised that even I was able to do some of the things I was able to do. And it begs the question, how do you understand when you're growing? And how do you understand when you're truly faking it as you're going down that path?

• 32:34Speaker 04

  My answer would just be like to not worry about whether you're faking it or not. Everything that you do for the first time is going to feel really fake until you get better at it and it becomes a lot more natural for you. No one feels like a runner like the very first time they go for a run. It's pretty rare to have a talent for something that is profound, that you just take to it like a duck to water and it's no work at all. And it's so easy and you never feel like an imposter. Almost everyone feels like an imposter at first, but in everything, people doing improv, actors. I was just listening to a podcast, John Hamm was on it, the Mad Men guy. And he was talking about how at one point Les Moonbezz, the head of,

• 33:18Speaker 04

  I'm going to get this wrong because we're taping, but the head of, I think CBS or possibly ABC, a head of a major network, told his agent to stop sending him in for TV tryouts. And because, quote, "John Hamm will never be a television star." And I found that so funny because first of all, John Hamm became a huge television star, but also everyone who starts out doing something, even John Hamm, who we think is like Don Draper, like he was born to play Don Draper. It was like never a question whether he would be good at this, was at one time considered not very good at it. And so we're all doing that at first. Every new thing that we do, we're all really far from being a television star

• 34:02Speaker 04

  or a star at whatever the thing is. And I would just not worry too much. If it's a goal that you have that you feel connected to for whatever reason, I wouldn't worry about whether it feels fake.

• 34:14John R. Miles?

  Earlier on, you mentioned the big five traits. Can you discuss with the audience what the five traits are? And which one you have found is the hardest to shift?

• 34:26Speaker 04

  Sure. So the five traits can be remembered with the acronym OCEAN. So it's openness to experiences, which is like creativity and imagination and being the kind of person who says yes to everything. Conscientiousness, which is, like I said, it's getting things done, being on time, being really motivated. E for extroversion, which is both how much you enjoy being around people and just how active you are and how much you get out and about. A for agreeableness, which doesn't mean agreeing with other people so much as having a lot of warmth and empathy for other people. So it's, these people tend to have really good friendships and relationships with their loved ones. And then N for neuroticism, which is depression and anxiety.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  And the opposite of neuroticism is emotional stability, which is are the people who can let everything roll off their backs, don't sweat the small stuff type thing. For me, neuroticism was the hardest to change. I was extremely high on neuroticism when I started out. I was in the 94th percentile. And it is one of those where, so some of these traits, like just by going through the motions, you can change on the trait. So like if you make a to do list in a Google Calendar and set your clock five minutes ahead or whatever, you can pretty much become conscientious. But for something like neuroticism, it's really something that has to come from the inside. Like you have to kind of want to change and like do a lot of thinking and like reframing

• 35:53Speaker 04

  your thoughts and thinking about situations differently. And I actually ended up meditating a lot. I meditated for 45 minutes a day as part of this class that I took. And that to me was really challenging. I found it really uncomfortable to just sit with my thoughts for that long.

• 36:09John R. Miles?

  So I have to ask, where can you go take a test on neuroticism?

• 36:13Speaker 04

  So you can test your level on any of these traits on any big five personality test. You can either Google big five personality test, or you can go to personalityassessor.com. That's Nate Hudson's website and he has a ton of free personality tests that are scientifically backed on that site. And I would just take any of the ones that are like big five or say big five on them.

• 36:37John R. Miles?

  How would someone know if they have neuroticism? What are some of the telltale signs?

• 36:43Speaker 04

  Do you often feel annoyed? Do you feel like it's hard to get through the day? Have trouble finding joy in kind of day to day life? Feel down a lot? Have trouble sleeping either due to feeling down or agitated? For me, it was a lot of worry. So for me, it was the anxiety component. And I was just like, really worried all the time.

• 37:04John R. Miles?

  Thank you for sharing that. And in the book, you explore this concept of big talk versus small talk. Why do deeper conversations matter when you're trying to change who you are?

• 37:15Speaker 04

  Deeper conversations? I think that a lot of people, when they are like, okay, I want to make more friends. Right? I want, I'm tired of being so isolated. So they go out and they're like making small talk with a bunch of people. And they're like, wow, that sucked. I don't want to make new friends anymore. No one really likes small talk. Like, most people enjoy talking about deeper issues or deeper just thoughts that are personal to them more than they like catching up about the weather or how their flight was or whatever else. I took this conversation workshop as part of the book. And one of the things we learned is just to like, ask people what something was like. Instead of where did you go on vacation? They say Sicily. What was Sicily like?

• 37:59Speaker 04

  Or why was it important for you to go to Sicily? Or why is travel important to you? What does travel mean to you? Those kind of questions can be a little uncomfortable because we're not used to asking them in polite conversation. But I was so surprised at how quickly people will open up and share things about themselves that are super interesting and actually really revelatory and that you might actually connect to more than like, I have also been to Sicily or whatever. So it's just something to think about when it comes to meeting new people and connecting with people that most people are ready for deeper conversation topics than where did you go on vacation?

• 38:36John R. Miles?

  I have to say, I hate the events that you go to where everyone is just doing small talk and which tends to be, I find vast majority of events we go to, I really prefer probably similar to you to have smaller group sessions where you're really having engaged conversation rather than these larger group events where you don't know the people deeply enough to feel confident that you can get into the big talk moments with them or put yourself out there. So I agree with you there. And the reason I bring it up is before you wrote this book, I heard you when you were on CBS, talking about how you would go to a party and you would be the person who would rather be sitting there on their phone, reading than involved in these

• 39:21John R. Miles?

  small talk conversations. How do you think things have evolved since then, since you went through this experiment?

• 39:29Speaker 04

  I just think that I would never do that. Like, I just actively seek people out now. I'm just constantly trying to get to know more people and to especially reach out to other parents because it can be really isolating. I don't know, it can be really isolating being a mom and a new mom. And I think this is really, I'm glad I did this project before I had a child because it made me realize how important it is to have some sort of like connection to other local moms. Just to discuss some of the daily challenges or hey, he's doing this, is that normal? Or just like, where's a good pediatrician? But also just some bigger questions, like, I don't know, I had a hung out with a friend recently and we had a long conversation

• 40:10Speaker 04

  about whether we want to have a second kid and like the pros and the cons and like how that would fit into our lives and how we always saw our lives. And those are like really important thoughts to verbalize to another human instead of just like stewing on them yourself in perpetuity. And so I don't think I would see myself like, definitely not going to a party and reading articles on my phone at this point.

• 40:35John R. Miles?

  One of the things I wrote about in my own book was that as you're on this path to making changes in your life, often, one of the things you have to confront is the environment that you find yourself in, and you might have to make changes to it, both in your activities and in the people you surround yourself with. Did you find that was the case with yourself?

• 40:56Speaker 04

  So, one thing that I did as part of this is that I pulled back from drinking. I didn't totally quit drinking, although, of course, I didn't drink while I was pregnant, but I basically just cut down my amount of drinking, I guess is like the fair way to say it. And I realized that a lot of my socializing throughout my whole adult life had basically been based around drinking, just because in DC, a lot of socializing is like, "Let's go out and get drinks." And so, I had to, first of all, come up with ways to hang out with people and not drink, but also just come up with things to do, because going to a bar and staring at each other and drinking Diet Coke is like, also not that fun. And so, things like improv, or like I did sailing, or like skating, it gives you something to

• 41:39Speaker 04

  do that's not just alcohol. So, I'd really recommend that for anyone who's like trying to, maybe even not quit drinking, but just find other ways of spending your time, is just to pick up other activities that you can't drink during.

• 41:54John R. Miles?

  So, we talked earlier about Nate Dukes and how people said, "You'll never change." I'm curious, after you started to go through this change yourself, how did your relationships, both ones that you had personally and your professional ones, respond to the changes you were making? Did people believe you were different?

• 42:15Speaker 04

  I did. So, I canvassed some of my friends towards the end of my book, and I asked if I seemed different, and they said that I did, that I seemed more up for doing things and more confident, and just more of a yes. Kind of had a spirit of yes about me that wasn't there before. But I think, and this gets to an important point, like, I think a lot of personality change is internal, and it's mostly going to be visible internally. It's going to be like... How compelled do you feel to drink? How, how do you handle a rough day? How do you handle a day that like, nothing particularly good happens? If you move to a new city, are you like, oh my God, I have no friends and I never will? Or are you like, can't wait to get to know the local community or whatever?

• 42:59Speaker 04

  A lot of it is your approach to life and how you go about your day. And so it might not be noticeable to other people because other people only ever see like a slice of you anyway. But the point of personality change is not so that other people are like, wow, I like you way better now. And it's more so that you like yourself better and so that you can get more out of life.

• 43:22John R. Miles?

  Thank you for sharing that. And I'm also interested in your writing because that's one of the things that is your identity. Did you find that your writing shifted at all as you went through this process? Or did it stay the same?

• 43:36Speaker 04

  It was interesting because very caustic and like judgmental. But as I spent more time within a bunch of groups for a lot of this book, like a anger management group and a conversation group and a this group and that group, they were all growing on me. Like I started to see the positives of all of them. And like even this meditation class, which I like hated for most of the time that I was in it, like I now have fond memories of it and wish I had almost like paid closer attention or been less negative during it because the way I did, like all my notes about it are like, and she did this and that was stupid. But like now, when I think, when I'm having a hard day or I'm like trying to get through

• 44:20Speaker 04

  something, a lot of the like aphorisms that I go to are from that class and things that I learned in that class.

• 44:28John R. Miles?

  And I have to say, that's not a word that you hear very often. And I recently interviewed Kretchen Rubin about her latest book where she went through all kinds of aphorisms. So it was interesting to get more familiar with their meanings and how powerful a role they play in our lives. Is there one aphorism for you that kind of stands out?

• 44:49Speaker 04

  So one that I actually learned from Dan Harris's book, but it is related to Buddhism, which I was studying extensively during this time, is all we can do is everything we can do. And it's from David Axelrod, the political consultant. And it basically just means that you can try very hard. You can do everything in your power to try to get a certain outcome, but you can't ultimately control the outcome. Like, you have to let go at a certain point and let the cards fall where they may. And to me, that was really freeing because I had lived my whole life thinking that if I didn't control the outcome and I didn't have the outcome that I wanted, that it was my personal fault and I should have done things differently.

• 45:31Speaker 04

  But I just, I don't know, it's like, nice to know that like, other people also have this struggle and have realized that at a certain point, yeah, you can try, you can work on a political campaign, super duper hard, and then come election day, they might pick the other guy. And that's just part of life. And so I try to remind myself of that. So I recently had a situation with Amazon where like, my order page was like, messed up and there wasn't enough stock or something. And it was like, this book will ship in one or two months. And like, I emailed my editor, I emailed my publishing team, of course. And I was like, hey, can you get more stock over to Amazon? But that's all I can do. I cannot like undo this. And I slept super well that night and did not think about it again

• 46:15Speaker 04

  because I literally cannot change what Amazon is doing at all. All I can do is email my publishing team. And I don't know, there's so many things in life like that, but I've applied it to.

• 46:28John R. Miles?

  And one of my favorite aphorisms is, it's better to ski than to be skied. I'd rather blaze the trail than follow someone else in their footsteps. And that's one of the key core beliefs that I have. And it goes back to why I took all those positions because I always thought I could blaze my own trail and do it in a way that I could create my mark in how I wanted to change things. Well, Olga, it has been such an honor to have you. If you had a single takeaway from our conversation or for someone who's reading your book, what would it be?

• 47:06Speaker 04

  It would be that not to get too attached to what you think your personality is because it can still change and that might be a good thing.

• 47:16John R. Miles?

  Passion struck listeners, pick up your copy of Me But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Olga, I know they can find the book everywhere. If they want to read more of your articles, learn more about you, where's the best place that they can go?

• 47:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I have a Substack about personality change at olgaazan.substack.com. And my last name is spelled K-H-A-Z-A-N for anyone who's listening to this and is like, how do I spell that? I'm also a staff writer for The Atlantic, which is at theatlantic.com.

• 47:47John R. Miles?

  Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for making the introduction. That's a wrap on today's conversation with Olga Khazan. And it's such a fitting chapter in our Decoding Humanity series. Here are a few key takeaways I hope you sit with this week. First, being weird doesn't make you broken. It means you're honoring your inner compass. Second, the pain of exclusion can forge resilience and help you become who you were meant to be. And lastly, true belonging isn't about fitting in. It's about being seen, valued, and accepted as you are. This conversation reminded me that mattering isn't about being liked by everyone. It's about aligning with your truth and letting the right people find you there. If today's episode spoke with you, share it with somebody who needs this as a reminder.

• 48:31John R. Miles?

  And if you haven't yet, please leave a five star rating on Apple or Spotify. It's the best way to help more people find these conversations and rediscover their own sense of mattering. You can go deeper by visiting passionstruck.com for the full show notes or watching the entire conversation on the Passion Struck YouTube channel at John R. Miles. And if you haven't yet, join our free newsletter at theignitedlife.net for companion reflections and also getting journaling props. Coming up next in Decoding Humanity, I'm joined by Robert Glazer, number one Wall Street Journal bestselling author and host of the Elevate Podcast. We'll explore how to build teams and organizations that thrive without sacrificing meaning, well-being, or trust. Robert shares a blueprint for scale and culture, developing leaders.

• 49:16John R. Miles?

  And creating workplaces where people can bring their best selves and leave better than where they came.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  I am very outcome oriented. I believe in KPIs and dashboards and we had one of the first remote companies and my friends before COVID were like, how do you know people are doing work and I'm like, I don't know. They all have the same number of clients. We have two key metrics. Is the program doing well and they're staying retained and the client is happy. So if somehow they have five clients and their program is doing well and it's growing and they figured out how to do that in 10 hours a week, God bless them. Like they're doing the right thing. We just always had an outcome orientation.

• 49:53John R. Miles?

  Until then, lead with intention and brush your uniqueness and as always, live life passion struck.

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