Mulholland Drive with Leslye Headland

Is it a dream? Is it about a dream? Is it a TV pilot? Is it the greatest film of the 21st century? In any case, Leslye Headland returns to the podcast to talk about David Lynch’s endlessly fascinating 2001 masterpiece MULHOLLAND DR. We may not have all the answers, but we do have a lot of thoughts about Hollywood, about Billy Ray Cyrus, about actors being shoved down audiences’ throats, about diners, about Patrick Fischler’s eyebrows, about the diner owned by Patrick Fischler’s dad, about Naomi Watts’ friendship with Nicole Kidman, about Corky Romano…the list goes on. If you're in NYC starting November 20th, 2024, check out Leslye's new play Cult of Love Get Tickets Now https://2st.com/shows/cult-of-love The Box Office Game is Sponsored by Regal Cinemas: Sign up for Regal Unlimited today http://blankcheckpod.com/regal and get 10% off your 3 month subscription when using code BLANKCHECK Sign up for Check Book https://blankcheckpod.substack.com/welcome, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. http://www.patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter https://x.com/blankcheckpod?lang=en, Instagram https://www.instagram.com/blankcheckpod/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@blankcheckpod?xmt=AQGzctAh4mbWTwYzCV1pzNT6AMV9o99EOfymi8TLR5mTde0 and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/blankcheckpodcast/! Buy some real nerdy merch https://kinshipgoods.com/blankcheck Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/blankies/s/gpcOkQr8Sv or Discord https://discord.gg/Q6YGSR3JrA For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com https://www.blankcheckpod.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Griffin Newman?

  David.

• 0:03David Sims?

  Yep.

• 0:03Griffin Newman?

  We did a live show.

• 0:04David Sims?

  Yeah, remember?

• 0:05Griffin Newman?

  Ranking Scorsese at the Bell House in Brooklyn. We did the definitive power ranking of Martin Scorsese things.

• 0:12David Sims?

  Uh, it was so fun. Uh, it was very silly.

• 0:15Griffin Newman?

  Ben and Marie were with us and they're with us right now.

• 0:18David Sims?

  Yeah, hey.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  Hey, everyone, or should I say, oh?

• 0:20David Sims?

  Oh.

• 0:22Griffin Newman?

  And thanks to our friends at Dynasty Typewriter. It was livestreamed for the first time ever. But also, the replay is still up there, but only until October 30th.

• 0:31David Sims?

  So just a few more days.

• 0:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 0:33David Sims?

  You can get it at dynasty.tv.

• 0:36Griffin Newman?

  Dynasty.tv.

• 0:37David Sims?

  It's $20. We had a blast and the Spreadmaster really got to work.

• 0:43Griffin Newman?

  Oh, yeah. I was moving things around. Laptop was on.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  I don't know if I'd have seen you that happy.

• 0:48Griffin Newman?

  You were thrilled. You were like a pick and share.

• 0:50David Sims?

  I was locked in.

• 0:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, very locked in and you were funny.

• 0:53David Sims?

  Thank you. You were funny. You were also funny.

• 0:56Griffin Newman?

  Oh, thank you.

• 0:57David Sims?

  And if you want to see like, you know, Griffin's shine box on camera, it's the only way to see it.

• 1:02Griffin Newman?

  You might see me shine Marie's shoes.

• 1:04David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you're into that sort of content.

• 1:07Griffin Newman?

  If that gets you off.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10David Sims?

  So once again, that's at dynasty.tv.

• 1:39Griffin Newman?

  When you see the podcast in the picture that was shown to you earlier today, you will say, this is the podcast. The rest of the podcast can stay, that's up to you. But the choice for that lead podcast is not up to you. Now you will see me one more time if you do good. You'll see me two more times if you do bad. Good podcast.

• 2:00David Sims?

  There's sometimes a podcast. How many hosts does a podcast have? There's so many more you could do. Come on. Uh, no iPodcast? I thought you might do that.

• 2:11Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure. A man's. Podcast, man's podcast goes some ways.

• 2:15David Sims?

  Oh, you just like the cowboy.

• 2:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I do.

• 2:17David Sims?

  But you're, you're not doing his voice. You're doing a more generic cowboy.

• 2:20Griffin Newman?

  Doing more generic cowboy voice.

• 2:22David Sims?

  There's sometimes a buggy. I'm trying, I wish I could do Monty Montgomery exactly right.

• 2:26Griffin Newman?

  Monty Montgomery, secret legend of Blank Check.

• 2:28David Sims?

  He's come up before.

• 2:31David Sims?

  Leslie could talk about, yeah, do you, do you know who plays the cowboy?

• 2:34Speaker 03

  Yes, the producer.

• 2:35David Sims?

  Monty, right, right.

• 2:36Griffin Newman?

  But was the co-director of Catherine Bigelow's first film, The Loveless.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  Excuse me?

• 2:41Griffin Newman?

  Which we covered on the show and was also the producer of Jane Campion's Portrait of a Lady.

• 2:46David Sims?

  True.

• 2:47Griffin Newman?

  And then produced several of David Lynch's films and appears in this as an actor. Like, has now crossed three mini-series in a way, in a capacity that kind of feels like the role the cowboy plays in this movie. Relative to those people's careers where it's like, I just roll into town and make a big impact, I disappear.

• 3:04David Sims?

  There's sometimes a buggy.

• 3:05Griffin Newman?

  I'm working with you very intensely for a short period of time and then I'm gone.

• 3:09David Sims?

  What were you gonna say? What were you gonna say about the cowboy?

• 3:12Griffin Newman?

  We've covered him as a director, a producer and an actor.

• 3:15David Sims?

  That's true, we have.

• 3:16Speaker 03

  Well, he, in Room to Dream, he talks about how he just wanted Monty for the role. And said, I would like you to play this role. And Monty said, absolutely not.

• 3:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  But then people kept calling him being like, so here are your dates.

• 3:36David Sims?

  Right, which I do think is kind of the Lynch. The funny thing to think about, he's in the TV pilot. We're gonna talk about all of this. And you can just imagine the Twin Peaks thing of like, sorry buddy, now, now you're just gonna be in every five episodes. Right? It's like, you're in, you're the log lady now. You're just gonna be showing up.

• 3:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:55David Sims?

  Like, it's not just you did me a favor for the pilot.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  He is very log lady though.

• 3:58David Sims?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  Because the, the, um, the light flickers.

• 4:02Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  Before he shows up, like, yeah.

• 4:04Griffin Newman?

  I was just double checking. This is his only acting credit.

• 4:07David Sims?

  It's his first and only acting credit.

• 4:08Griffin Newman?

  Obviously, not only was he not a professional actor, but it's not even like he has a cameo. In the Loveless, it's not like he's cameos in his other films he produced.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  No, it's Lynch, Lynch saw him.

• 4:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  And either came up the character.

• 4:21Griffin Newman?

  For like five or six years at this point.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  But do we think he came up with the character looking at him and, and thought?

• 4:26David Sims?

  Possibly.

• 4:27Griffin Newman?

  I'm kinda guessing.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  He had the character and then was, and then felt Monty's the only person.

• 4:31Griffin Newman?

  When we talked about him in our Loveless episode, and this was before we had researchers, as we were fucking scrambling for context on mic. We were like, who's this guy? And we Googled him and saw a picture of him. We're like, first of all, his name's Monty Montgomery.

• 4:44David Sims?

  Here's the picture. This is his IMDb picture. It looks like a tin type of a bank robber from the fucking 1870s.

• 4:52Griffin Newman?

  We did like 40 minutes of bits of like, how did this man enter through a time warp? So I kinda see David Lynch looking at him.

• 4:58David Sims?

  I believe, he wore his own clothes.

• 5:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, text some.

• 5:01Griffin Newman?

  Be like, you know what? If I just put you in front of camera and you just say my oblique dialogue, that will have some power to it.

• 5:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  And again, in Room to Dream, he says that, or maybe Thoreau says that, he said, do you want to run lines to Monty? And Monty was like, I'm good.

• 5:19David Sims?

  Hell yeah.

• 5:19Griffin Newman?

  That rules.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  They start the scene, he has no idea what he's saying.

• 5:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  So they just wrote the lines and then taped them on Justin.

• 5:29David Sims?

  We should cut to Justin just covered in, inside.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Sometimes there's a buggy, you know?

• 5:34Griffin Newman?

  Have you guys seen those pictures?

• 5:35David Sims?

  Being a smart aleck to be thinking.

• 5:37Griffin Newman?

  The behind the scenes pictures from the filming of The Godfather, where Brando, of course, was in his PQ card era.

• 5:43David Sims?

  Right.

• 5:44Griffin Newman?

  And every other cast member, there are photos from The Godfather where you're like, this is one of the most iconic scenes in the history of movies.

• 5:49David Sims?

  And Michael Corleone just has cue cards around his neck or something.

• 5:52Griffin Newman?

  There's a great one of Duval, where he literally has 10 different pieces of paper pinned to his wool suit.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  But hey, it seems to be working.

• 6:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  It seems to be.

• 6:01David Sims?

  Robert Duval looks like he's doing the Love Actually proposal. He's just got like giant.

• 6:07Griffin Newman?

  You are perfect.

• 6:11David Sims?

  It works, man. If it works, it works.

• 6:13Griffin Newman?

  That's the thing. If it works, it's working.

• 6:15David Sims?

  I mean, that's so funny, though, especially, I mean, like, Clooney, the famous thing with Clooney that I talk about sometimes is that in ER, he would put his sides on his, you know, little clipboard, right? Because he's a doctor.

• 6:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 6:28David Sims?

  And so, and he looks down at them all the time. And then it turns into a tic that he uses in all his movies.

• 6:35Griffin Newman?

  Ooh.

• 6:35David Sims?

  Not to look at things, just to, because he knows it makes him look cute and vulnerable to go like,

• 6:41Griffin Newman?

  And there's the famous story.

• 6:42David Sims?

  And it's the number one Clooney move is to look down.

• 6:45Griffin Newman?

  There's the famous story when they're making The Peacemaker, the inaugural film released by

• 6:50Speaker 03

  DreamWorks.

• 6:50Griffin Newman?

  DreamWorks.

• 6:50David Sims?

  And his sort of first star blockbuster.

• 6:53Griffin Newman?

  And Spielberg had obviously been like part of the process of him getting on ER and whatever. And he's now on the set of like the first vehicle that a studio is banking on.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:04Griffin Newman?

  And Spielberg comes out from behind the monitor.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  That was pre-Batman?

• 7:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:08David Sims?

  It's this year before. Or maybe, yeah, maybe the same year.

• 7:11Griffin Newman?

  It's right around the same time. But Spielberg comes out from behind the monitor and he puts his arm around him and Clooney thinks he's about to get complimented. And Spielberg's like, I swear to God, you'll be a movie star if you can ever stop looking down. You gotta get over this thing.

• 7:26David Sims?

  He was wrong.

• 7:27Griffin Newman?

  And I think he knew, like, the backstory of it. But he was like, if you can just fucking nip this one tic in the bud.

• 7:33David Sims?

  Never.

• 7:33Griffin Newman?

  You'll be a movie star.

• 7:34David Sims?

  No, he's gonna look down for the rest of his damn life.

• 7:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 7:38David Sims?

  Please introduce our show. I have so much to say about this film.

• 7:41Griffin Newman?

  Really?

• 7:42David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:42Griffin Newman?

  Had you seen this before?

• 7:43David Sims?

  Hmm, yes. I have seen this one before.

• 7:46Griffin Newman?

  Mid, where do you stand on it?

• 7:49Speaker 03

  Wait, did you?

• 7:49David Sims?

  This is basically my favorite movie of all time.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  I would say it's definitely in my top 10.

• 7:52Griffin Newman?

  In David's Sight and Sound Top 10 list.

• 7:55David Sims?

  That's true.

• 7:55Griffin Newman?

  It was on his ballot.

• 7:57David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:57Griffin Newman?

  Have we covered? I feel like we've litigated this in the Elephant Man episode.

• 8:01David Sims?

  We covered, we did a, I did have Alien on my Sight and Sound Top 10.

• 8:06Griffin Newman?

  We did on Patreon.

• 8:07David Sims?

  Uh, which we did do on Patreon, and that is it.

• 8:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, right.

• 8:11David Sims?

  Of my Sight and Sound Top 10, it's the, this is the first film we're covering.

• 8:14Speaker 04

  Well, you're forgetting I love you to death.

• 8:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, that was it. You were forgetting because it wasn't part of a product. Or like director mini series.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  But you did a, you did a Kasdan then?

• 8:23Griffin Newman?

  We didn't, no.

• 8:24David Sims?

  No, no.

• 8:25Griffin Newman?

  Ben sometimes picks a movie that he thinks is elemental.

• 8:28David Sims?

  That are usually kind of curated around what was on Comedy Central.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:33David Sims?

  Sort of the early 2000s, the summer and the afternoon.

• 8:36Griffin Newman?

  They're usually curated by like one of the most totemic films in American cinema. It's sort of his own sight and sound balance.

• 8:42David Sims?

  What films start with a freeze frame of a spinning pizza? Which that movie does.

• 8:47Griffin Newman?

  Blank check. With Griffin and David.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  I haven't seen it in so long.

• 8:51Griffin Newman?

  Oh, it's normal.

• 8:52David Sims?

  I'm David.

• 8:53Griffin Newman?

  It's normal.

• 8:53David Sims?

  It is normal.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  It's a normal movie?

• 8:55Griffin Newman?

  Aggressively.

• 8:56David Sims?

  Oh, normal.

• 8:57Griffin Newman?

  Top to bottom. Tip to tail.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Not to get.

• 9:00Griffin Newman?

  This flick is normal.

• 9:01Speaker 03

  Not to get derailed, but Ben, just give me like one or two other ones that you've picked.

• 9:06David Sims?

  Oh, oh, sure. No, you want some Ben's choices?

• 9:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 9:09David Sims?

  The man who knew too little. Under Siege 2. Dark Territory.

• 9:15Griffin Newman?

  We find out halfway through that episode that he had never seen Under Siege 1. He has now since seen it.

• 9:20David Sims?

  I have, pretty good.

• 9:21Griffin Newman?

  But at that point in time.

• 9:22David Sims?

  It's actually kind of better than 2.

• 9:24Griffin Newman?

  As one of his favorite movies of all time.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  No.

• 9:27Griffin Newman?

  We said, Ben, you could pick any movie. He said, Under Siege 2, and an hour into the conversation, we were like, is this what the characters like in the first one? He's like, I don't know, wouldn't know, never seen it.

• 9:37David Sims?

  Uh, Fletch.

• 9:38Griffin Newman?

  That was the first one.

• 9:39Speaker 03

  Fletch, yep.

• 9:40David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:41Griffin Newman?

  Uh.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  That's a solid choice.

• 9:43Griffin Newman?

  Street Fighter.

• 9:44David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  This, I'm on a roller coaster right now.

• 9:47Griffin Newman?

  Assassin's Creed, there've been two video game movies.

• 9:50David Sims?

  You're a gamer, Leslie. Do you like Assassin's Creed?

• 9:53Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 9:54Griffin Newman?

  Well, here's, here's what's fun. Neither does Ben. He never played the games before watching the movie. Much like Under Siege.

• 10:00David Sims?

  I just got really into it and I was in a bad relationship and I just kind of kept re-watching in the middle of the night. And then I got like obsessed with it.

• 10:09Griffin Newman?

  He saw it like 30 times.

• 10:11David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:11Griffin Newman?

  I bought him the steelbook. It was a nice present. Wait, are we forgetting one?

• 10:15David Sims?

  There's so many. What do you mean? Joe Dirt.

• 10:17Griffin Newman?

  Oh, Dirt.

• 10:17Speaker 03

  Joe Dirt.

• 10:18David Sims?

  Clifford, obviously.

• 10:19Griffin Newman?

  Of course.

• 10:20David Sims?

  Clifford. We've done it twice.

• 10:21Griffin Newman?

  We went back for seconds, Clifford 2, Hyper Clifford.

• 10:24David Sims?

  Anyway, we're moving on.

• 10:26Griffin Newman?

  What our show is sometimes, but what it's usually about. It's usually a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes your failed pilot is retrofitted into a feature film. That not only makes David Sims ballot.

• 10:46David Sims?

  Sure.

• 10:46Griffin Newman?

  But ranks number eight?

• 10:49David Sims?

  That's a good question, actually. What you mean like on the, on the total?

• 10:52Griffin Newman?

  I believe on the last site and sound ballot, it is insane to go like, what is this movie? David Lynch made a 90 minute pilot for ABC that they deemed unerrable.

• 11:01David Sims?

  Sure.

• 11:01Griffin Newman?

  Oh, great. So it's lost to time? No, he got a French company to let him film an hour of new footage and edit two things together.

• 11:08David Sims?

  Eighth in the critics poll.

• 11:09Griffin Newman?

  Oh, so the movie's a disaster? No, it's considered to be one of the 10 greatest films of all time.

• 11:14David Sims?

  That's true.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  Didn't they, something, I don't know what it was, but something named it the greatest film of the 21st century?

• 11:22David Sims?

  I think that is what it is.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Shortly after it came out.

• 11:25Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Like, it's just in 2001.

• 11:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  It was like, this is it. This is the bar.

• 11:30Griffin Newman?

  But even, look, it is the highest ranked film of the 21st century on the site and sound poll, right?

• 11:35David Sims?

  No, it's not. It's actually not.

• 11:37Griffin Newman?

  Fuck. What's higher?

• 11:39David Sims?

  It's, In the Mood for Love is ranked higher.

• 11:42Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  Okay, fair.

• 11:43David Sims?

  Which is another wonderful film.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, fair.

• 11:47David Sims?

  That is the only other one that's ranked higher, though.

• 11:50Griffin Newman?

  That's American.

• 11:53David Sims?

  Well, I watched this movie last night with my friend. I've seen this movie. Oh, wait, have you finished the spiel, please?

• 11:58Griffin Newman?

  This is a main series on the films of David Lynch.

• 12:00David Sims?

  Sure, we're blank check over here.

• 12:02Griffin Newman?

  I said all the other stuff.

• 12:03David Sims?

  Yeah, true, true.

• 12:03Griffin Newman?

  It's called Twin Pods Firecast with me.

• 12:05David Sims?

  Sure. Whatever.

• 12:07Griffin Newman?

  Our guest today triumphantly returning to the show. Pumping fists, ready to fucking go.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm ready. I'm very regretful that our Zodiac, we only got, I feel like we barely touched the surface.

• 12:20Griffin Newman?

  Sure, but I'll say this. We, we had like a little bit of a, like, there's a problem moment with the response to that episode where people were like, I'm so disappointed. It's only two hours and 45 minutes. What went wrong? And we're like, how have we gotten ourselves into a gilded cage? Where if an episode is only a little above two and a half hours, people feel like we're ripping them off. I agree that I could talk about that movie for seven straight hours.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Same, same.

• 12:48Griffin Newman?

  Hey, motherfuckers, if an episode's longer than 90 minutes. That's a kindness?

• 12:52Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 12:53Griffin Newman?

  And, and usually they're way over that.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  I feel like, but I specifically feel like, just a, this is why I had to come back and atone. I had to atone because.

• 13:05Griffin Newman?

  And you've cleared out your week.

• 13:06Speaker 03

  I cleared, I'm here, I'm here, we're gonna, we're gonna be sleeping here tonight. Yeah, exactly.

• 13:10David Sims?

  Leslie did text me and, you know, like, hey, do you want to do, oh, Mulholland Drive, that sounds great, yeah. When can you do it? You guys need like all day, right? And I was like, I mean, it doesn't hurt.

• 13:20Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:21Griffin Newman?

  Leslie Headland, the acolyte of Sleeping with Other People, my favorite romantic comedy of the 21st century.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 13:29Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Bachelorette.

• 13:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:32Griffin Newman?

  Many other things.

• 13:32David Sims?

  Mulholland Drive.

• 13:35Griffin Newman?

  A show.

• 13:36David Sims?

  For crying out loud.

• 13:37Griffin Newman?

  That no one was ever gonna watch because they said, no, thank you, this does not go to series. I just can't get, it is the weirdest.

• 13:44David Sims?

  I know you can't get over it. That is the most Griffin.

• 13:46Griffin Newman?

  I've never gotten over it.

• 13:48David Sims?

  Okay, well.

• 13:49Griffin Newman?

  It is so bizarre that this is the process that leads to this movie and the movie turned out the way it did and has the reputation it does.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:55Griffin Newman?

  And I just want to state again, the only clear takeaway from this is that Moana 2 is gonna be the greatest film.

• 14:02Griffin Newman?

  Of the last 20 years. It's the first time since then that someone's finally gotten the idea of we should replicate.

• 14:08David Sims?

  Is, has there, is there any other example?

• 14:10Griffin Newman?

  I can't think of one.

• 14:12David Sims?

  TV pilot rejected, turned into a movie.

• 14:14Griffin Newman?

  First time since Mulholland Drive that someone has finally had the bravery to say, fucking, these aren't episodes. Add some new shit, re-edit, put it in theaters. Sight and sound, here we come.

• 14:29David Sims?

  Well, it's sort of interesting.

• 14:30Griffin Newman?

  Lone best actor.

• 14:31David Sims?

  It's interesting to think about it with Twin Peaks and we're gonna talk all about this. But obviously with Twin Peaks, he makes, he does the same thing. He makes a 90-minute pilot. Uh, shows it to ABC, convinces them, they are suspicious but are like, okay, let's do it. But he did then shoot the quote-unquote international version of Twin Peaks that has tacked-on scenes that sort of explain what's going on and that you see Bob in a basement going like, ah.

• 14:58Griffin Newman?

  I like being crazy.

• 14:59David Sims?

  Yes, it doesn't explain much.

• 15:01Griffin Newman?

  Sure, yeah.

• 15:02David Sims?

  But it's sort of the, what he does here.

• 15:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 15:05David Sims?

  Where he's like, well, let me tack on an act.

• 15:07Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 15:07David Sims?

  Uh, where I'm, where I go nuts.

• 15:09Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:09David Sims?

  Uh, it's, I mean, I may be simplifying, but you know. I guess he thought like, well, I'll just do something like that again.

• 15:17Griffin Newman?

  You said already that you like this as much as any movie ever made, that it's on that tier of movies you can comfortably call your favorite movie, even if it's not, you know, strictly your number one.

• 15:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, and like as a lesbian in Hollywood who suffers from suicide ideation, this is a biopic.

• 15:32Griffin Newman?

  You find it hard to relate.

• 15:32Speaker 03

  This is a biopic. Yeah, no, this all happened to me.

• 15:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:36Griffin Newman?

  No, I was gonna say, we were talking about a couple of days ago, getting ready for this episode, and I was, much like I'm now doing on Mike, just spinning out over like, I can't believe this is how this movie came into reality. And you were like, and the craziest thing is, you can so clearly tell while watching it, what was part of the pilot and what he shot later.

• 15:55David Sims?

  Well.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Well, I can't see that.

• 15:57David Sims?

  I will reveal now.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  That's really interesting, because I can't.

• 15:59Griffin Newman?

  I'll say, I don't know if I could, I would nail it 100% of the time, but I was watching it and feeling like I could parse it out, and it's like, there's even just like the sense of like, some shit being shot a year later.

• 16:11David Sims?

  I will just, I'm just gonna cut you off. I have seen the pilot. I found it and watched it this week, after long avoiding it.

• 16:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 16:19David Sims?

  Out of fear not of, just of spoiling my love of Mulholland Drive.

• 16:22Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:24David Sims?

  It's on the internet. You can find it if you look. You can go look in it.

• 16:27Griffin Newman?

  I didn't do the work.

• 16:28David Sims?

  Uh, it's fine. I didn't want you to, honestly.

• 16:30Griffin Newman?

  Thank God.

• 16:32David Sims?

  And we will talk all about this, but the pilot is essentially the first, is the first 90 minutes of Mulholland Drive.

• 16:40Griffin Newman?

  That was my guess.

• 16:41David Sims?

  Without too much fucking around. The only thing that is added is the winkie scene, which is not in the pilot at all. The, you know, diner.

• 16:48Griffin Newman?

  The Patrick Fisher?

• 16:49David Sims?

  Yes, that is not in the pilot.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  And the sex scenes and the nudity are not.

• 16:51David Sims?

  No, that's what I'm saying. When they find the body, like, uh.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Oh, I see.

• 16:55David Sims?

  When they go in.

• 16:55Griffin Newman?

  Everything after the part.

• 16:56David Sims?

  That is the end of the pilot.

• 16:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 16:58David Sims?

  The only thing that's really added is the winkie scene. A couple of things moved around there. A couple of extra scenes of Robert Forster in the pilot. Love to see him.

• 17:05Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:06David Sims?

  But literally just him kinda doing like, well, looks like something's going on here. We're like, right, this is going to be,

• 17:11Griffin Newman?

  No, that, that was.

• 17:12David Sims?

  A continuing storyline.

• 17:13Griffin Newman?

  That was my guess, and the visual language of the movie.

• 17:16David Sims?

  Scenes are shuffled around a little bit, but it changes a little bit after that point, but also it's like,

• 17:20Griffin Newman?

  That's built into the text of the movie.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  That makes sense.

• 17:23Griffin Newman?

  Right? That like the movie's vibe changes, the characters change, the look changes.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  Because I, I, I had no idea of the backstory the first time I watched the movie. And the movie made such a deep impression on me. I watched it, I saw it in the theater. It was the first David Lynch film I'd ever seen.

• 17:40Griffin Newman?

  Wow, okay.

• 17:40Speaker 03

  And I, I was on ecstasy.

• 17:44David Sims?

  Not same. Now, now our paths diverge.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  And, or I took ecstasy right after. I, there was ecstasy.

• 17:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  What, what do the kids call it now?

• 17:53David Sims?

  Uh, Molly.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  Molly. I was on, I was doing Molly either during or after.

• 17:57David Sims?

  Leslie, we're, we're similar ages. It's ecstasy. Now, it pisses me off so much that people don't call it that anymore. I'm like, god damn it, I grew up with everyone calling it that.

• 18:05Speaker 03

  Just kind of like.

• 18:06David Sims?

  And it's a great name.

• 18:08Griffin Newman?

  It's a great name.

• 18:09David Sims?

  Euphoria, it's ecstasy, right? No, Ben, Ben's just making fun of me.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  It, it makes such an impression.

• 18:15Speaker 04

  It, it's just.

• 18:16David Sims?

  I know it's a little different or whatever.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  Because the era of ecstasy was more, it was pills. And a lot of times it was cut with like weird stuff.

• 18:24David Sims?

  I know.

• 18:25Speaker 04

  And, and it's actually better that nowadays MDMA is purer and it's referred to as Molly.

• 18:30David Sims?

  I'm aware, I'm aware of what happened. And I grew up in the nineties where they were like, don't take ecstasy, you'll die like this. One kid did one time. Everyone else seems to do fine, but there was that one kid.

• 18:41Griffin Newman?

  Ecstasy and Dungeons and Dragons lead to death.

• 18:44David Sims?

  Kind of, yeah.

• 18:45Griffin Newman?

  And you're like, there's one example and maybe the story doesn't check out.

• 18:47David Sims?

  Anyway, anyway, uh, you, you, you saw.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  I was just saying it made such a deep, deep impression on me and I, when I was rewatching it for this, I, I felt like the best place to come from would be to, to really do the sense memory of this is what I felt the first time I watched it. And then rewatching it for this, this is.

• 19:04Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. But I, I had no idea the background of it. I don't think I found out.

• 19:10David Sims?

  Saw it the first time.

• 19:10Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I don't think I found out about that until 10 years later.

• 19:14Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say, I think the same with me. And when I. Heard it, I was like, that can't be true.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, that does not process.

• 19:21Griffin Newman?

  I would have known that. And the movie would have felt that way. That's what's weird. I don't remember when I learned, but it certainly wasn't within the couple of years of the movie coming out and being feted. It was probably 10 years later.

• 19:34David Sims?

  I was 15 years old. It's David's story time now for doing a Mulholland Drive episode.

• 19:40Speaker 03

  You were 15?

• 19:41David Sims?

  Alright, so you're a little older than me.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  Oh, god.

• 19:43David Sims?

  It's fine, Leslie, I'm 38. What are you like?

• 19:46Speaker 03

  43.

• 19:47David Sims?

  Yeah, except for similarity.

• 19:49Griffin Newman?

  I'm 21, yeah.

• 19:50David Sims?

  Yeah. Did you see this in theaters?

• 19:52Griffin Newman?

  No, I watched this on DVD with my mom when she rented it. Probably a year later.

• 19:58David Sims?

  Right, and that was like, super cool, when the, the, the sex scene happened and everything, you were just kinda like, white knuckling it.

• 20:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 20:04David Sims?

  On the, on the armchair.

• 20:06Griffin Newman?

  The armrest got a big workout on that couch.

• 20:09David Sims?

  I was 15 years old. If I had seen a Lynch film before this, that I actually do not remember.

• 20:14Griffin Newman?

  I saw Straight Story, which I will have talked about in that episode.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:18Griffin Newman?

  But that was my parents being like, there's a David Lynch movie, released by Disney, playing at the Angelica, that's appropriate to take kids to. We'll take the boys.

• 20:26David Sims?

  Right, and you liked it.

• 20:28Griffin Newman?

  And I was like, well, that gives me no sense of who David Lynch is. Like, walked out, my parents were just like.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  Was it Disney, or Touchdown or Disney proper?

• 20:38Griffin Newman?

  Walt Disney Pictures presents.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Okay, David Lynch.

• 20:41David Sims?

  It's on Disney Plus?

• 20:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes, and they couldn't stop saying like.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  With the acolyte?

• 20:45Griffin Newman?

  It's so weird that he made that, and I was like, what do you mean, that's most normal movie I've ever.

• 20:49Speaker 03

  Ever seen.

• 20:50Griffin Newman?

  Seen. It's normal to a fault.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:53Griffin Newman?

  So when I'm watching this, a couple of years later on DVD, at that point, I probably knew him by reputation, but also was like, oh, this is the weird David Lynch shit everyone's talking about.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, yeah, same, yeah.

• 21:03David Sims?

  So, I was 15 years old, I'm a budding cinephile, I certainly know I have to go see this new movie, that won a prize at Cannes, that is the new David Lynch film. His first in four years.

• 21:13Griffin Newman?

  Prognosticator lists.

• 21:15David Sims?

  Um, I know that it, I do know about the TV pilot thing. There is a, an article in Sight and Sound, which of course later I would rank this for, you know, as a working film critic. The dream of my life was to get to make a Sight and Sound top 10, which I then got to do, and I made a really boring one. Good job, me. But I did Mulholland Drive on it.

• 21:34Griffin Newman?

  David's process was borderline insane for developing that.

• 21:37David Sims?

  I was like, hmm, boring, boring, boring, boring. But, uh, and I saw, I read Graham Fuller's piece. Graham Fuller is in the New York Film Critics Circle to this day, of which I am currently the chairman, to be honest. I'm just, I just think, like, I read David Graham Fuller's piece on Sight and Sound, uh, on Mulholland Drive in Sight and Sound 100 times.

• 21:55Griffin Newman?

  You're saying this, this movie represents a lot of full circle stuff of your entire relationship to film and film culture.

• 22:00David Sims?

  This is the tunnel opening for me, for my life.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would say it is formative in my identity. Like, it seeped into my bloodstream, into the molecules of my body, in a way that I...

• 22:12David Sims?

  And I am not a lesbian who works in Hollywood and had suicidal ideation.

• 22:17Griffin Newman?

  Oh, humble brag.

• 22:18David Sims?

  Nonetheless.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Drag me, drag me.

• 22:21David Sims?

  No, I'm just using your words against you. No, I, I went to see it at the Holloway Odeon with my friend Oliver Stephens. Shout out, Ollie. He's now Ollie Kinnipurka, actually. I should, I should use his, his current name.

• 22:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. He did kind of a Mulholland Drive character name switch.

• 22:37David Sims?

  God bless. And, uh, I've never been so scared by a movie in my life, and never will I be.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Oh, same, yeah.

• 22:44David Sims?

  Uh, because it's so elemental. Like, now I, whatever. I go see Long Legs and I'm just like, all right, you know?

• 22:50Griffin Newman?

  I was scared. I read your fucking byline.

• 22:52David Sims?

  Well, I didn't write that headline. But, uh, but, uh, but I was scared, but you know, it's now...

• 22:57Griffin Newman?

  It's just funny for you to say that when this week, a review got published...

• 23:01David Sims?

  Yes, Long Legs is scary, yes.

• 23:02Griffin Newman?

  Literally, the headline they gave David's review is like, "It's true. Long Legs is as scary as everyone's telling you it is." And then David's here going like, "Yeah."

• 23:10David Sims?

  Long legs, whatever. I'm just saying, I'll never have that elemental fear that I was of like, I don't know what's going to fucking happen.

• 23:18Griffin Newman?

  And where did this come from?

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:20David Sims?

  Yeah, like, uh, like not, not scenes like the diner, of course, freaked me out, but then also just scenes where like they're just in their house.

• 23:27Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 23:27David Sims?

  And I'm just like, I don't know what's going to happen.

• 23:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 23:31David Sims?

  Is someone gonna come in? Are they, like, what's going to happen? I'll never have that feeling quite the same way.

• 23:37Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 23:38David Sims?

  And it changed my life and I owned the absolutely shitty, bolderized DVD that David Lynch put out.

• 23:44Griffin Newman?

  Leslie?

• 23:44David Sims?

  That lures the nudity.

• 23:46Griffin Newman?

  The DVD, did you have it on DVD?

• 23:47Speaker 03

  Yes, I did, I did.

• 23:48Griffin Newman?

  David is obsessed with his hatred for this DVD.

• 23:50David Sims?

  Well, it's famously bad and it doesn't even have chapters, it's nothing.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  It's bad, yeah. It's got those weird 10 clues.

• 23:57David Sims?

  It's got the 10 clues, which are very annoying and people fixated a little too much on.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  I don't think that.

• 24:03Griffin Newman?

  There are no special features, he censored the nudity.

• 24:05David Sims?

  Yes.

• 24:05Griffin Newman?

  And there are no scene selection and he put in the fucking piece of paper.

• 24:10David Sims?

  And it's obviously not great quality.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  Is he okay?

• 24:13David Sims?

  I think he was kind of, whatever, he was dealing with the dawn of the digital era, you know, in his own way, I feel like.

• 24:20Griffin Newman?

  I feel like, I, I wanna say his Criterion just don't have scene selection still.

• 24:26David Sims?

  I think they do not, which is fine, I mean.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Actually, that tracks.

• 24:29David Sims?

  I don't mind that.

• 24:30Griffin Newman?

  He's got a big, like, I don't want people jumping around.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, just think about it, like, what, like even as I was watching it for this, I, I sort of started to go, okay, so if I could just get my thoughts together.

• 24:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  You know, this section and then this section and I got so lost in trying to, to make the bullet point outline that I just brought my laptop this time.

• 24:52David Sims?

  There it is. I just noticed you have your laptop in front of you.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  I mean Zodiac, I know so well that I felt confident coming in without it.

• 25:00Griffin Newman?

  A far more linear movie that you can obsess over, Robert Graysmith style and be able to recount how many steps it took to get from scene one to scene 15.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. And, and break it up like in that, like, confidential way of like, I know this section, then this section, then this section.

• 25:14Griffin Newman?

  It is a very, yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. But this is no, no, no, no way, yeah.

• 25:19David Sims?

  So, but I know, I watched the DVD over and over and over again. I can read everyone's lines in this movie.

• 25:23Griffin Newman?

  And every time you're fuming. You're white knuckling.

• 25:26David Sims?

  The quality of this is poor. No, I was obsessed with it. No, I had the 10 clues pinned to my wall. Just, I'm a little embarrassed to admit that now, but.

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Well, I had a big, um, I would steal, I would steal, we're not really steal, but like at the end of the day, I would take Variety magazines home. And this is back when they were like, you know, humongous, so all of the.

• 25:45Griffin Newman?

  They were basically wallpaper.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  They were basically, that's what I did is I took out, I know I did, I took out.

• 25:50Griffin Newman?

  Leslie.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  I took out the ads.

• 25:52Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 25:52David Sims?

  Yeah, the F Y C ads or whatever.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  The F Y C ads and just put them on my wall and just, you know, it just became, I think I had like, not that many, maybe like three or four.

• 26:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 26:03David Sims?

  I had a lot more than that.

• 26:04Speaker 03

  But.

• 26:05Griffin Newman?

  You know what I would do?

• 26:06David Sims?

  I had this F Y C ad for Quentin Tarantino, best director for Kill Bill, volume one, which he got no Oscar nomination for, that where that's him and his little.

• 26:14Speaker 03

  I thought she was nominated though.

• 26:15Griffin Newman?

  The movie got zero noms, both across the two films, zero noms.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  And she wasn't?

• 26:21Griffin Newman?

  No, it's wild.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  It was at a Golden Globe, is that what?

• 26:23David Sims?

  She got a Golden Globe nom.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:24David Sims?

  And it's him doing this and Uma's like looking at him in her yellow tracksuit and I think about.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  What I meant was I had just Mulholland Drive.

• 26:31David Sims?

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Okay, got it. That was the only one I heard about. Oh, and Amelie, Amelie. I had a couple of Amelie's.

• 26:37Griffin Newman?

  2001.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  It was 2001, baby, that accordion music?

• 26:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  Come on, we had nothing else going on. I keep trying to explain this to people who are younger, much younger than than we are. I'm like, you don't understand, we, we didn't have the internet, like we, or it was the dawn.

• 26:52David Sims?

  It was a, it was a.

• 26:54Speaker 03

  Have anything to do, like it was like, it was like that, that wheel with the stick, like we had, that was what we were doing.

• 27:01Griffin Newman?

  This is what's interesting. My version of that was, we, we got the fucking trades, like my dad had Variety and Hollywood Reporter subscriptions. I would certainly pore over those F Y C ads.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:13Griffin Newman?

  I would love being like, two-page F Y C spread for Meet the Parents, and my dad would be like, contractual obligation. They don't think it's gonna get anything. Terry Pollard for supporting actresses, and he's like, it's baked into her contract. Um, but I would never think to pull those out. New York Times would always do summer movies. Preview, fall movie preview.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Oh, god, remember that?

• 27:35Griffin Newman?

  In addition to the art section. For those two seasons, they'd be like, here's its own thing. That's full New York Times sized. Posters for all the things that are coming out this summer with the dates, basically in chronological order. And I would pull those out for whatever movies I was most excited for and put them all on my wall. And to your point of the internet not existing, sometimes I'd be going through that. And movies, giant blockbuster movies that were coming out two months later. That would be the first time I heard about it.

• 28:08Griffin Newman?

  You're like, this movie cost a hundred million dollars. I'm paying attention to everything. I'm watching Entertainment Tonight, I'm reading Entertainment Weekly. And the New York Times in May is telling me what is gonna be the biggest movie in August. Like, what the fuck is The Sixth Sense?

• 28:23Speaker 03

  That is a movie that, that does not exist with the internet.

• 28:27Griffin Newman?

  No, and that poster is nothing.

• 28:29David Sims?

  That's a fair point.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  It just doesn't exist.

• 28:31David Sims?

  It doesn't, or it not in the same way. Not in the way of like, six weeks later, people being like, I guess I should see that, huh? Like, I, I, everyone's talking about it.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  The Matrix, I think. Same thing with The Matrix. That was a weirdly, obviously it was a huge hit. But both of those were weirdly word of mouth movies.

• 28:48Griffin Newman?

  Same year.

• 28:49David Sims?

  Hundred percent.

• 28:49Griffin Newman?

  And both of them.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Ninety-nine, right, right.

• 28:51Griffin Newman?

  And both of them have the same thing.

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Who's the fucking idiot who was like, nineteen ninety-nine, the film, the year that changed film?

• 28:59David Sims?

  Let's not say his name on mic. Yeah, no, no, we can, no, please, go ahead.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Know this person.

• 29:04Griffin Newman?

  David thought about pitching that book.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Is it, but, but it was an entertain, wasn't it an Entertainment Weekly, like?

• 29:09Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  That's who did that.

• 29:10David Sims?

  Yeah, I think he worked it either. I can't remember.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  Like, ten years later, they were like, we're gonna make this a thing. But I feel like everybody already knew that.

• 29:17Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 29:17David Sims?

  That's why it was a good pitch for a book.

• 29:20Griffin Newman?

  Well, and it's right, the thing with that year is just.

• 29:22David Sims?

  Something that lots of people know.

• 29:23Griffin Newman?

  The cross-section between things being like, popular phenomenon and that culturally important.

• 29:29David Sims?

  Yeah, you had Star Wars and Blair Witch, you had The Matrix and The Sixth Sense and Fight Club and Magnolia.

• 29:36Griffin Newman?

  But the Sixth Sense making three hundred million dollars and getting nominated for six Oscars and being critically beloved. Good, and good ass movie.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  I just rewatched it. I was like, this fucking movie is so great.

• 29:48Griffin Newman?

  Movies. While being very mainstream blockbusters, had this thing where they like come out, they. Open a little better than expected.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:55Griffin Newman?

  And then the marketing campaign is people saying to you, I can't even tell you what this is.

• 29:59Speaker 03

  You just have to have to watch it.

• 30:01Griffin Newman?

  My word for it.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:02Griffin Newman?

  Just go.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:03Griffin Newman?

  Which is how Lynch movies usually tend to stick in the culture. Or Twin Peaks, people just going like, I can't explain this thing, you just gotta watch it.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  You just gotta go.

• 30:12Griffin Newman?

  That's how you, you know, as like a budding cinephile, usually most people watch Eraserhead. That's how people got into Twin Peaks.

• 30:19David Sims?

  Yes, Leslie, do you have a Lynch, a larger Lynch take or whatever, like, you know? If Mulholland Drive was your first Lynch, like, do you like David Lynch?

• 30:28Speaker 03

  I love David Lynch.

• 30:29David Sims?

  Seen all of his films?

• 30:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have not seen all of his films. I have oddly read a bunch about David Lynch. Like Catching the Big Fish, Room to Dream.

• 30:37David Sims?

  Right.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  Lynch on Lynch. I find his personality to be sparkling.

• 30:42Griffin Newman?

  I mean, he's really funny.

• 30:43David Sims?

  Incredibly uncharismatic, not hot and not cool.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, he's so hot. Jesus Christ.

• 30:49Griffin Newman?

  This is another thing we talked about.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  All the era too.

• 30:51Griffin Newman?

  And Lynch.

• 30:52Speaker 03

  All the.

• 30:52Griffin Newman?

  Who are the most.

• 30:53David Sims?

  Yes, you're right. But you're right. Lynch was always hot. There's different kinds of Lynch or whatever, but he's hot in all types.

• 31:00Griffin Newman?

  He's aging like Paul Newman. It's that thing where you're like, every version of him.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  He feels like this, this is, this is not quite right, and I think he's a superior artist. But he does feel like the cinematic version of Tom Robbins. In, in terms of.

• 31:18Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 31:18Speaker 03

  Everything that happens feels like this, this stream of consciousness of him.

• 31:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  There, there isn't, there, there isn't sort of a setup payoff to Still Life with Woodpecker. And yet, at the same time, you, once you finish it, you're, you have the experience of, oh, that was holistic.

• 31:41Griffin Newman?

  This is what's kind of.

• 31:42Speaker 03

  Even though it felt like each step was so wild.

• 31:45Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  But you had characters you could hold on to, you had themes you could hold on to, you were compelled by particular things.

• 31:52Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  But then you're told other things that, or you're shown other things, I should say, for Lynch. That you're trying to place as, you're just trying to place. I guess you're trying, you're, I love Lynch because you are always, you're. And this is what I mean by Tom Robbins. It's like, you're always trying to find your footing and yet you're, you are taken care of. You, you don't feel completely abandoned.

• 32:17Griffin Newman?

  What is so bizarre about him?

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:18Griffin Newman?

  I mean, like, I'm, I don't say this in the framework. Of me patting myself on the back and being like, what are you talking about? All these movies are easy to understand. I figured them all out. But it is fascinating for how much hand wringing there is about interpreting meaning of shit in Lynch movies, right?

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:31Griffin Newman?

  And this movie's Wikipedia page is the longest Wikipedia page I have ever seen for any movie.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  It didn't go to it.

• 32:37Griffin Newman?

  It has 20 subsections of analysis and theories and fucking whatever, right? And I feel like was talked about so much as this puzzle box movie that's completely bleak. Like people are obsessed with trying to crack a thing to the point of putting the 10 clues in. And maybe it's just that, like, watching them in the context of this podcast.

• 32:57David Sims?

  And all that came around.

• 32:58Griffin Newman?

  Where we are going chronologically and we're reading dossiers. This is true.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:03Griffin Newman?

  I'm like, all of these movies are clearly very representative of things that he's going through in his life.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Well, that's true.

• 33:09Griffin Newman?

  They're all so personal and they make sense in the chronological order of like.

• 33:14David Sims?

  His wife fucked Billy Ray Cyrus.

• 33:16Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, that's what the movie's about.

• 33:18David Sims?

  It's about a girl who lost her keys. I'm sorry, I have to make that joke with this one. Sorry, go ahead, go ahead. I've been saying that every movie is about a guy who lost his keys and this movie actually has a key in it.

• 33:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  Wait, you've been saying that?

• 33:28David Sims?

  It's like a joke, like just being like. Movies easy to solve, about guy who lost his keys.

• 33:34Griffin Newman?

  That's David's joke about.

• 33:36David Sims?

  How people are like, um, I can explain Eraser to you, okay? The guy lost his keys, by the end he got his keys back.

• 33:40Griffin Newman?

  But I think people try to read them like he's trying to transmit some weirdness.

• 33:45David Sims?

  This is a clue, this is a clue, this is a clue.

• 33:47Griffin Newman?

  No, he's trying to work through his own shit.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  He's inviting you, this is what I mean, like he's inviting you into his brain.

• 33:53Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  He's not going to apologize in any way for it. It's gonna be extremely confident.

• 33:59Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  And he is gifting you the opportunity to have an experience.

• 34:06Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  Digesting it.

• 34:07Griffin Newman?

  And the miracle of him as an artist is that he does that in a way that is compelling to people who don't have the puzzle pieces of what's going on inside his head.

• 34:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:18Griffin Newman?

  Or in his life.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:20Griffin Newman?

  That it can represent different things to different people and meaning and be gripping and be funny and be scary. When he is also not really playing by any conventional rules of narrative cinema.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  I remember, the other thing too, is it's, the word that keeps coming to mind is experiential. Because when I think of David Lynch, I don't have a.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  Beginning, middle and end narrative that comes to mind. What I think is I know exactly where I was sitting when I saw X scene.

• 34:55Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  You know, like Laura Dern's monologue in Blue Velvet. I know exactly where I was sitting. I know exactly the feeling.

• 35:04Griffin Newman?

  It's a physical sensation that you're remembering as much as remembering the film.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 35:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  And you just, like, I remember watching that and going, how long has this been going on for?

• 35:14Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  Has this been the whole movie? Is the whole movie this scene?

• 35:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 03

  Because I'm trying to, usually with other films, you're watching the scene in relation to the scene you just saw. Right? So there's this quote, I don't know who said it, that in plays, the viewer is thinking, this is what's happening now. And in movies, they're thinking, what's going to happen next?

• 35:39Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 35:39Speaker 03

  And I think David Lynch is, you have to watch him with, this is what's happening now.

• 35:44Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  You can't say, while you're watching Laura Dern, you're not going, I wonder how.

• 35:49Griffin Newman?

  Where's this leading?

• 35:50Speaker 03

  Where's this leading? You just think, wow, what am I watching?

• 35:54Griffin Newman?

  You're never going to predict where it's going.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  But I think that his thesis statement might be, because Blue Velvet comes out of the disaster that's doomed.

• 36:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  So it does, I like this movie better. I consider this movie to be his masterpiece.

• 36:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 03

  But I do understand that Blue Velvet is what cements him as him.

• 36:11Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  Eraserhead, he bursts on the scene.

• 36:14David Sims?

  There's nothing controversial about saying.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, so with Blue Velvet, I think if there were a thesis statement for him that he hasn't already said, I think he articulates his work extremely well.

• 36:25Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  But I think that it's when Isabella Rossellini discovers Kyle MacLachlan in her closet.

• 36:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  And then she's like, take your clothes off or whatever.

• 36:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  And she says, what do you want? And he says, I don't know.

• 36:40Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Griffin Newman?

  This guy is like trying so hard to figure himself out, and that's what all of these movies are.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  And that's what all of the movies are about.

• 36:47Griffin Newman?

  And they're reflective of whatever the specific issue is, he's. Dealing with at that point in time.

• 36:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:53Griffin Newman?

  To some extent.

• 36:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:54Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 36:55David Sims?

  Uh, I think with Mulholland Drive.

• 36:57Griffin Newman?

  It's about a woman loses her case.

• 36:59David Sims?

  It's about a woman who loses her case. No, I think.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  That's genuinely true, though.

• 37:02David Sims?

  It is. Um, but like, I do think there is, I don't think it is a.

• 37:08Griffin Newman?

  Say it.

• 37:08David Sims?

  I'm so afraid of making like any blankety statements. Anyway, I think there is a.

• 37:12Griffin Newman?

  You're representing your personal relationship experience of this.

• 37:15David Sims?

  Well, no, no, I'm not. I'm saying, like, I think that there's a fairly, a fairly, not straightforward, but like, there is a way to read the plot of Mulholland Drive that's not that complicated.

• 37:25Griffin Newman?

  I would agree.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  Agreed, yeah.

• 37:25David Sims?

  He uses dream logic, obviously, and that's the idea of what's going on here. There are other things that are a little more like, it's up to you.

• 37:32Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 37:33David Sims?

  But I also think David Lynch very happily wants anyone to bring anything to these movies.

• 37:38Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 37:38David Sims?

  And so, to all of his movies, right?

• 37:40Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 37:40David Sims?

  And so, he's obviously certainly never gonna sit down and be like, the thing that's going on is this, but, uh.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  You never do that to an audience.

• 37:47David Sims?

  Right. And if I went up to David Lynch and I was like, Mulholland Drive is about like something that happened to me, like, you know.

• 37:53Griffin Newman?

  He'd be thrilled.

• 37:54David Sims?

  Exactly. He would be like, that's great, I'm sure. Or he would be like, you know, have you heard of transcendental meditation? I'd be like, yes, I have, David.

• 38:00Griffin Newman?

  He would, absolutely.

• 38:01David Sims?

  Um, but, uh, but I do feel like this film came out at the dawn of the internet.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:08David Sims?

  Not dawn, dawn, but, you know, of like.

• 38:09Speaker 03

  Oh, like, yeah.

• 38:11David Sims?

  Where people would then go.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  I would say mainstream of the internet.

• 38:13David Sims?

  Right.

• 38:14Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 38:14David Sims?

  Type in Mulholland Drive. There is a website called MulhollandDrive.net that still runs, that has this kind of lovely early 2000s sort of aesthetic to it, that has like theories and stuff that people were piling in. There's a very famous Salon.com article that I remember I would read over and over again, that was like, trying to explain what's, you know, like.

• 38:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 38:33David Sims?

  It was the beginning of, let's use the internet to collectively try and understand something.

• 38:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:39David Sims?

  That was confusing. A movie that made seven million dollars.

• 38:42Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 38:42David Sims?

  That was not like some sensation.

• 38:44Griffin Newman?

  It wasn't like Twin Peaks.

• 38:45David Sims?

  But was an abstract piece of storytelling, not like aggressively abstract, but still abstract enough that broke into a mainstream sense.

• 38:53Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 38:53David Sims?

  And thus, lots of people are like, what was that?

• 38:56Griffin Newman?

  But here's what's fascinating about it to me, is like, Twin Peaks had that same cultural, we are in on trying to game this out, right? Kind of thing.

• 39:05David Sims?

  It did.

• 39:06Griffin Newman?

  But in a pre-internet era.

• 39:07David Sims?

  I know.

• 39:08Griffin Newman?

  Yes. In a pre-internet era where the way that happens on a peer-to-peer level is so much more bizarre.

• 39:13David Sims?

  Right, but Twin Peaks.

• 39:13Griffin Newman?

  And circuitous and whatever, and that's a phenomenon that stretches out, but also like rises and falls really quickly. And then. As we've discussed, the stuff between Twin Peaks and this movie is largely reviled. He goes through this period where people are like, he's cooked, he's gone too far up his own ass.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:33David Sims?

  And also, they're mad at him because, I mean, I'm, they, I'm, just, I mean, I'm talking about people in the 90s in the broadest brush. But I think people felt betrayed by Twin Peaks.

• 39:43Griffin Newman?

  You gave us a beautiful thing and then you killed it.

• 39:45David Sims?

  When you break through with a show that has such a wide cultural, you know, acknowledgement or whatever. And people are like, but you fucked that up. Like, I didn't like that Twin Peaks like didn't end how I wanted it to. Or didn't keep going how I wanted it to, or whatever.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  What about the, I mean, listen, echoing a particular fanbase, I may say, the first season, why didn't you give us the answer?

• 40:10Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  You know, second season, you gave us the answer, we didn't like it.

• 40:13David Sims?

  Right. Go fix the answer.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  Go fix the answer.

• 40:16Griffin Newman?

  You're talking about young Sheldon fans, right? When you're talking about which fanbase, I'm sorry, the Sheldonverse.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  We need closure. Here's the closure.

• 40:23David Sims?

  How did he get older? Uh, when, with, as time passes, people grow up. I don't like that answer.

• 40:29Griffin Newman?

  Do we even have a lore director? Sheldon wouldn't do that, even if he were young.

• 40:35David Sims?

  That's how Sheldon is. All right, fine. Sheldon discovers an autism cube when he's 10 and that's, okay, what do you want from me?

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Autism cube?

• 40:41David Sims?

  I just like the idea that someone's like, explain why he's like that.

• 40:44Griffin Newman?

  I think some of the Sheldon legends should count. Work them back in. Reclaim Sheldon legends.

• 40:51David Sims?

  I do think that is, that is a sign of a fanbase that has gone on too long and needs to be nuked from orbit. Where they're like, I know you removed all this from canon.

• 40:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:00David Sims?

  But I liked that one and enough of us do, that you've got to bring it back. And they're like, all right, bring it back. All right. We're gonna take that one thing. Are you gonna like this?

• 41:09Griffin Newman?

  Timothy Zahn wrote Sheldon better than anyone else. I don't even think Chuck Lori really got, he, he created Sheldon by accident.

• 41:16David Sims?

  All right.

• 41:17Griffin Newman?

  He never even really got Sheldon.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  Mulholland Drive, Mulholland Drive. Sorry.

• 41:19David Sims?

  Mulholland Drive starts with Tony Krantz.

• 41:21Griffin Newman?

  My point I was gonna make, just to finish this off.

• 41:24David Sims?

  You love for me to do one sentence of the thing and then break in with some other shit.

• 41:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's funny.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  I'm not helping, I'm not helping.

• 41:30Griffin Newman?

  Thank you.

• 41:30David Sims?

  What?

• 41:31Griffin Newman?

  No, it's just this film, when this comes out, and as you said, in a much smaller way, seven million domestic, one Oscar nomination, what have you, it's not a cultural phenomenon on the level of Twin Peaks crossing over the mainstream. The first time in 10 years that the public was like, let's lean in, crack our knuckles and try to figure this thing out.

• 41:48David Sims?

  People were ready for Lynch to be back.

• 41:49Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 41:50Speaker 03

  They were ready, yeah, it's true.

• 41:51Griffin Newman?

  Internet helps fuel this to like, be like, there's now a dialectic going on between the viewers of the movie.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:58Griffin Newman?

  And this other section of like, pop culture and the text itself.

• 42:01David Sims?

  Tony Krantz is a CAA agent.

• 42:04Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 42:04David Sims?

  He is instrumental to the creation of Twin Peaks, in that he sort of brings Lynch to ABC and somehow makes that work.

• 42:11Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 42:12David Sims?

  Which obviously must have been a little complicated.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  You think?

• 42:17David Sims?

  Supposedly Lynch recounts at one point, uh, that he has this idea for Audrey Horn's character in Twin Peaks, uh, Sherilyn Fenn's character Audrey Horn. That, uh, one day she'll have, like, a storyline where she goes to Los Angeles and starts a movie career and will make a movie about it.

• 42:37Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 42:38David Sims?

  Right, well, kind of like, because there's been a lot of talk over the years.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  Not another show.

• 42:42David Sims?

  Right. He was like, we'll do like a Audrey Horn movie that'll be about her trying to make it in show business.

• 42:48Griffin Newman?

  This is in a world where he assumes Twin Peaks extends for years and years and years.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly.

• 42:52Griffin Newman?

  And has multiple tendrils.

• 42:53David Sims?

  Mark Frost remembers something similar, like, we were maybe gonna do a spinoff show, we were maybe gonna do a TV movie, we were maybe gonna do a pilot, who knows?

• 43:00Speaker 03

  And it's one of those like, classic, like, we wrote on a napkin.

• 43:03David Sims?

  It's an idea.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  We wrote on a napkin.

• 43:04David Sims?

  They may not have even written on a napkin. They discussed it.

• 43:07Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 43:08David Sims?

  Uh, Sherilyn Fenn, who is, I will say, insane, so she can't be completely trusted, uh...

• 43:15David Sims?

  Confirms this like, yes, this was something they were cooking up. Like, I would go to California.

• 43:21Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 43:22David Sims?

  I'm sorry to call her insane, but check out her Instagram.

• 43:26David Sims?

  It's insane. David Lynch says, I don't know about that. All right. Well, thank you, David Lynch. The answer is it's probably somewhere in the middle. Right? You know, like, I don't know, someone discussed this. However, of course, Twin Peaks falls apart. On the air and Hotel Room kind of turned David Lynch against TV for a while.

• 43:44Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 43:44David Sims?

  Right.

• 43:44Griffin Newman?

  On the, you said On the Air?

• 43:46David Sims?

  On the Air.

• 43:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 43:46David Sims?

  And Hotel Room.

• 43:47Griffin Newman?

  Have you ever seen On the Air?

• 43:48Speaker 03

  I haven't. I haven't.

• 43:49Griffin Newman?

  It is so bizarre in how much it isn't weird. Like, that's the thing. You're watching it and you're just like, is this like sarcastic?

• 44:00Speaker 03

  Are you, um?

• 44:01Griffin Newman?

  I don't think it's bad.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  I think that, okay, I was gonna go on a tangent.

• 44:05Griffin Newman?

  But it feels like him being like, I wanna make an old timey sitcom. And then he just does that.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  There's a, there's a, there's, Lynch is very attracted to the quote wholesome.

• 44:16Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  He really likes that, you know, so it makes sense. It makes sense that he would do that.

• 44:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  Are those, HBO is Hotel Room.

• 44:24David Sims?

  HBO is Hotel Room.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  But who's on the air?

• 44:27Griffin Newman?

  On the Air was also ABC, am I wrong?

• 44:28David Sims?

  Was on ABC in the summertime.

• 44:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 44:31David Sims?

  In 1992, which is right when you know a network has confidence. Your show will be debuting in July.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:40David Sims?

  So, but however, Krantz and who now works at Imagine Television, the spinoff of

• 44:46Griffin Newman?

  Oh, sure.

• 44:46David Sims?

  Ron Howard and Brian Grazer's show.

• 44:49Griffin Newman?

  Water be dropping.

• 44:50David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 44:51Griffin Newman?

  Ripple effects?

• 44:52David Sims?

  Imagine. Is still like, no, man, you should make another TV show. Like, you know, it's over the years, just kind of like, come on, any ideas? Throw in peanuts at us.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:04Griffin Newman?

  Why wouldn't you try to do that again?

• 45:05David Sims?

  Lynch, of course, says, yeah, here's my perfect idea for a movie. No, I'm joking. He says, I picture Mulholland Drive at night. You know, classic David Lynch.

• 45:13Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 45:14David Sims?

  He doesn't even have a story.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  I have one thought.

• 45:16Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  And that's like-

• 45:18David Sims?

  It's a road of mystery and danger.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  But isn't Blue Velvet like the ear?

• 45:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  It's the first idea.

• 45:24David Sims?

  Blue Velvet is the ear and I've always wanted to crawl into a woman's closet and wash her dress. I'm not joking.

• 45:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 45:30David Sims?

  That's something he's said to somebody.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  He said that?

• 45:32Griffin Newman?

  Pitched it to execs. When they said, "You got any anything else?"

• 45:36David Sims?

  What happens next? I crawl into a woman's closet.

• 45:39Griffin Newman?

  Didn't they say that in the framework of, "Do you have any movie ideas?"

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Honestly, that's hot.

• 45:43Griffin Newman?

  They were like, "Do you have any ideas?" He's like, "I have always personally." But also, Lost Highway is like, "What if you got a videotape of yourself?"

• 45:52Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 45:53Griffin Newman?

  That was the whole fucking thing. Right.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  And this was the street sign, right?

• 45:56David Sims?

  It's a mysterious road. It's rural in many places. It's curvy. It's two lanes. It feels old. You feel the history of Hollywood on that road. Now, I have only driven on Mulholland Drive once or twice. It does, when I was on it, I am like, "It is fucked up that this road exists." I don't know. I mean, you probably... Have you ever lived in LA, Leslie?

• 46:13Speaker 03

  I have. I lived in LA for, uh, uh, ball parking three years.

• 46:19Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  And I gotta say, I'm excited to get into it because he really pinpoints particular LA, like, corners of LA.

• 46:27David Sims?

  Sure, right.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  And they all amplify the characters so much.

• 46:31Griffin Newman?

  I wanted to say-

• 46:32David Sims?

  Have you ever driven on Mulholland Drive?

• 46:34Griffin Newman?

  Well, I don't drive.

• 46:35David Sims?

  Well, I've been in the car-

• 46:36Speaker 03

  I've definitely driven up there and there is this, like, it's, it's... Especially at night, there's this, like, sort of, like, dreamy feeling to it.

• 46:43David Sims?

  Yes, I mean, it's kinda cool.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  And it's dangerous.

• 46:45Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 46:46Speaker 03

  And you feel like-

• 46:46David Sims?

  It's fucking dangerous.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  I'm gonna kill someone or someone's gonna kill me.

• 46:50Griffin Newman?

  It's the Fury Road.

• 46:51Speaker 03

  But then, um, during the daytime, it is this, it has this, like, if I'm remembering correctly, like, one side of it is this kind of, like, Burbank-y, "We're in the desert." And then the other side of it is, like, "The richest of the rich."

• 47:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes. Right, I mean, look, it's like-

• 47:07David Sims?

  Laurel Canyon or whatever.

• 47:08Griffin Newman?

  It's like fucking David Lynch designed a road to metaphorically represent his entire relationship to the entertainment industry.

• 47:16Speaker 03

  That's actually true.

• 47:17David Sims?

  You look at a map of LA and you're like, "Here is LA, and then here is, you know, whatever, you know, the North Hollywood and Van Nuys and all this stuff." And it's like, in the middle, there are these mountains. You're like, "Oh, okay, mountains." And then there's just, the map just has this one road that's like-

• 47:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 47:29David Sims?

  And you're like, what's that? Like, Mulholland Drive. And you're, okay, that looks like you're driving through the Pyrenees. Like, it just, anyway.

• 47:35Griffin Newman?

  I, I want to make it clear, I'm not making an empirical slam on the city that many people live in and love, but much to the point of what you're saying, I watched this movie and I'm like, this is why I don't live in L.A.

• 47:47Speaker 03

  It's, it's very.

• 47:48Griffin Newman?

  It is, I think it's very specific to like specifically a, a certain type of person who wants to work in the entertainment industry and doesn't like specifically the culture of living in that geographic place while trying to do this type of work.

• 48:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:02Griffin Newman?

  And the way the city is built around it.

• 48:04David Sims?

  For the listener, I was drawing a quick way line.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:06Griffin Newman?

  But I watched this movie and I'm like, yeah, yeah, David, I fucking get it. That's how I feel too. And all of this feels weird.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  It's one of those movies that I think people love to say, you know, it's a love letter to this, maybe they don't say love letter, but it's, it's. A twisted love letter. It's a twisted love letter to the city. It's, it's, um, Los Angeles plays itself.

• 48:28Griffin Newman?

  Sure, sure.

• 48:28Speaker 03

  And I'm like, no, no, no, it is Los Angeles.

• 48:30David Sims?

  Yes.

• 48:30Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  It's not.

• 48:31David Sims?

  This is certainly what I think Los Angeles is.

• 48:33Griffin Newman?

  He's actually not making any value statement on it.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  He's not making any statement on it.

• 48:37Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 48:37Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 48:38Griffin Newman?

  You, you know what the love letter to Los Angeles is? The fact that he still lives there.

• 48:43Speaker 03

  I thought that.

• 48:43Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 48:44Speaker 03

  When I was reading the book before I.

• 48:45Griffin Newman?

  That's something like the movie's saying, this is a movie about him being terrified by the city and yet he stays.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  He stays.

• 48:51Griffin Newman?

  He doesn't have to.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  He's like, I moved there in the middle of the night.

• 48:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  I woke up the next morning and it was so bright.

• 48:56Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  He just like loved it. He never left.

• 48:59Griffin Newman?

  Right. And Twin Peaks, or not Twin Peaks, but Twin Peaks to an extent, I was gonna say Blue Velvet, but like the suburban section of his work is like, this is the environment in which I feel the most comfortable. I genuinely get pleasure and that sense of security.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:13Griffin Newman?

  From this type of attitude, culture, look, vibe, whatever. And I acknowledge there's stuff right under the surface, right?

• 49:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 49:22Griffin Newman?

  Versus this movie is him being like, this is fundamentally alien to me.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:29Griffin Newman?

  I choose to stay here, but all of this is weird. This business is weird, the city is weird, people are weird.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  The people in it are weird.

• 49:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 49:36David Sims?

  I'll say something else. I think David Lynch is kinda weird. In August 1998, Straight Stories in Pre-Production, Lynch and Krantz pitch Mulholland Drive to Jamie Tarsus, the then somewhat legendary head of ABC.

• 49:50Griffin Newman?

  Inspiration for Amanda Peet's character on Studio 60.

• 49:52David Sims?

  A great character with...

• 49:53Griffin Newman?

  Ah.

• 49:55David Sims?

  Basically pitches them-

• 49:57Griffin Newman?

  Passed away recently, kind of tragically.

• 49:58David Sims?

  Yes, a little too young. I thought you meant Amanda Peet.

• 50:00Griffin Newman?

  No, we still have her.

• 50:01David Sims?

  Great. Amanda Peet's still alive. Amanda Peet's Studio 60 character canonically dead. She died filming season seven of The UN, or whatever the show is that she's... I'm joking.

• 50:09Griffin Newman?

  She committed seppuku live.

• 50:11David Sims?

  What a commitment to that past in Studio 60.

• 50:14Griffin Newman?

  Will someone please end this?

• 50:17David Sims?

  Bradley Whitford chops her head off.

• 50:19Griffin Newman?

  She's pregnant with Bradley Whitford's 10th accidental child.

• 50:21David Sims?

  Alright.

• 50:26Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 50:26David Sims?

  Yes? Moooo.

• 50:30David Sims?

  Is that the Cineas cow?

• 50:31Griffin Newman?

  The Cineas cow is back.

• 50:32David Sims?

  Haven't heard from her in a while.

• 50:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, she's reactivated because she's horny for chicken fingers.

• 50:39David Sims?

  Okay.

• 50:39Griffin Newman?

  And she's excited for the streaming debut of Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma.

• 50:44David Sims?

  Wow.

• 50:44Griffin Newman?

  The cow likes chicken.

• 50:47David Sims?

  Remember cow and chicken? Let's look it up. While you tell the great listeners about the great stuff on movie.

• 50:53Griffin Newman?

  What movie is a global film company bringing great cinema to the world and to you? Curating and elevating visionary filmmaking, all handpicked, always. That's what movie does. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, one of my favorite movies of the year.

• 51:06David Sims?

  Absolutely.

• 51:07Griffin Newman?

  You can feel the rush now at home. There's a hole at the bottom of the lake where the movies come from.

• 51:13David Sims?

  That is a line in the movie.

• 51:15Griffin Newman?

  In the new movie from Jane Schomburn, Past and Future Guest.

• 51:17David Sims?

  Past and Future Guest, a great filmmaker, a great podcast guest, a great friend.

• 51:22Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 51:23David Sims?

  This movie rocks. It's got, of course, it stars Hannah Einbinder and Gillian Anderson.

• 51:28Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 51:29David Sims?

  Legends, and I tip my cap, but Zach Cherry?

• 51:31Griffin Newman?

  Performances, friend of the show-

• 51:32David Sims?

  Friend of the show Zach Cherry.

• 51:34Griffin Newman?

  Zach Cherry.

• 51:34David Sims?

  Also in it.

• 51:35Griffin Newman?

  This is true.

• 51:37David Sims?

  Such a cool movie. Won the Queer Palmetto. If you haven't heard about this movie, I don't know what's going on with you, but like, it obviously has, it was out in theaters this summer and now it's on movie.

• 51:47Griffin Newman?

  Hannah Einbinder plays a filmmaker attempting to reboot the Camp Miasma franchise, trying to track down the original final girl from the first movie to make some sort of legacy sequel, who's played by Gillian Anderson, who lives at the summer camp.

• 52:01David Sims?

  Yes, and you know, and then they hang out and it's regular.

• 52:05Griffin Newman?

  What happens? It's one of those Hollywood's out of ideas. No, it's very much a movie about Hollywood being out of ideas while being an example of there still being new stories to tell.

• 52:17David Sims?

  It's now streaming exclusively on MUBI and you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com/blankcheck. That's M U B I dot com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

• 52:30Griffin Newman?

  They got so many great movies on there to watch, but worth it for 30 days for my asthma.

• 52:35David Sims?

  Damn right.

• 52:40Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 52:40David Sims?

  Yes?

• 52:41Griffin Newman?

  He lurks in shadow. He slips into dreams. He casts no reflection. Audible presents Bram Stoker's Dracula, a new full cast audio thriller starring Ella Purnell as Mina Harker, Jonathan Bailey as Dracula, and an A-list cast, including Maggie Gyllenhaal as Van Helsing, Amy Lou Wood as Lucy, David Johnson as Dr. Seward, and many more. That is an all-star cast.

• 53:02David Sims?

  Yeah, this new full cast thriller locks Mina Harker in a battle of minds with the Count. When Mina's fiance Jonathan Harker, Louis Partridge, vanishes in Transylvania, Mina pieces together letters, diary entries, and chilling testimony to hunt the predator stalking those she loves, only to discover Dracula's already hunting her.

• 53:21Griffin Newman?

  Joined by the enigmatic Van Helsing, Mina and a small fearless band race against time to stop this ancient terror. Using her intellect, her resolve, and a gift for drawing the unseen lines between clues, Mina may just hold the key to bring down the Count if he hasn't already found his way inside her mind.

• 53:37David Sims?

  Featuring a haunting original score by Elon Eschery and a spatial dolby Atmos sound design, Audible's Dracula invites you to welcome literature's most shadowy figure into your home. Feel the terror of being hunted and the thrill of the hunt. Don't miss this year's best new audio thriller, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Audible's new full cast original adaptation. Written by Robin Ahern, now on Audible. Listen to the darkness. Go to audible.com/ListenToDracula.

• 54:12Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 54:13David Sims?

  Yes?

• 54:13Griffin Newman?

  Ugh.

• 54:14David Sims?

  Uh oh.

• 54:15Griffin Newman?

  It's November.

• 54:16David Sims?

  Ah.

• 54:17Griffin Newman?

  And you know what that means, the old stereotype about November.

• 54:20David Sims?

  Turkeys?

• 54:21Griffin Newman?

  One long sprint to the finish line.

• 54:23David Sims?

  Oh, of course.

• 54:24Griffin Newman?

  Packed schedule, questionable food choices, and somehow a social calendar that got way fuller than you planned. And I ain't talking about Sam Fuller, we're not covering him yet in the podcast.

• 54:32David Sims?

  No, though maybe we should.

• 54:34Griffin Newman?

  We might get there eventually.

• 54:35David Sims?

  I can't remember. Big red one. We could call it the Big Red Podcast.

• 54:38Griffin Newman?

  Listen, when things get complicated, not when life is easy and when you've got time for a whole routine, right now, when everything is full and something has to give one scoop, cold water every morning before anything else, as I like to say, scoop there it is.

• 54:52David Sims?

  You do like to say that every morning you text me, scoop there it is. And that means I now know that you had your AG1.

• 54:58Griffin Newman?

  And I'm awake.

• 54:59David Sims?

  Uh, but yeah, you're, I know you're, you're a daily AG1 user, and it's basically the, uh, the glue that holds your internal organs together at this point.

• 55:08Griffin Newman?

  It's not just marketing. AG1 Next Gen is backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials, not weekend a study.

• 55:15David Sims?

  Thank you for that.

• 55:16Griffin Newman?

  Four independent studies with key nutrient levels improved within three months of consistent use. This is the thing I like about AG1. They're not resting on their laurels. They constantly work to better themselves.

• 55:27David Sims?

  Um, yes, AG1, they've got now AG1 Pro.

• 55:32Griffin Newman?

  For the professionals.

• 55:32David Sims?

  Same daily drink now with a performance and recovery layer built in. So you've got five grams of Cre vitalis, a premium German-made creatine monohydrate, and one of the most studied compounds in sports science, plus CAHMB for muscle production and zinc carnosine for gut support.

• 55:51Griffin Newman?

  Thank God.

• 55:51David Sims?

  Next Gen is the foundation. Pro adds what your body needs to recover.

• 55:55Griffin Newman?

  You might be having some big meals this November. AG1 is what you need to keep your gut in check. Keep things, as I like to put it, regular.

• 56:03David Sims?

  Yes. So for a limited time, visit drinkag1.com/chek and get a free immune support bundle, including omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 with your first subscription of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/chek. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Belank Check sent you.

• 56:33David Sims?

  They pitch essentially two pages, they say, which is basically like a woman who's trying to be a star in Hollywood finds herself becoming like a detective digging into an underworld. Jamie Tarsus, somewhat surprised to their surprise, is like, you have $4.5 million and can make a pilot. They get another two-

• 56:49Griffin Newman?

  And does she approve at 90 minutes?

• 56:51David Sims?

  She approves essentially because they get a little bit more money from Touchstone TV. And so they basically approve a $7 million budget for a TV pilot, basically feature-length, 90 minutes. They do demand-

• 57:03Griffin Newman?

  25 years ago, at a time where no TV costs that much per episode. That is crazy.

• 57:07David Sims?

  They demand the closed ending.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  Closed ending, yeah, for the international-

• 57:10David Sims?

  Sort of the same deal with Twin Peaks of like, you need to produce a cut that we could maybe like sell in Europe as a movie, okay? Uh, alright, uh, let's do it. Krantz hooks up with David Lynch with Joyce Eliasson, I want to say her name is, uh, who is an experienced, she did the Jacksons mini-series, if anyone remembers it, with Angela Bassett, which is really good, actually. Uh, but kind of like an experienced TV hand, kind of the same thing as Mark Frost. Like, here's someone who can manage a lot of this sort of day-to-day TV shit.

• 57:40Griffin Newman?

  If you think about it, it must have been such a weird moment to be like, look, we're 10 years out, basically, from Twin Peaks, right? So now there's enough distance that everyone's calmed down a little from their anger over how it collapsed. And everyone's starting to feel like, like it's an X.

• 57:59Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:00Griffin Newman?

  If we give it another try tomorrow, would it work?

• 58:03Speaker 03

  Would it work, yeah.

• 58:04Griffin Newman?

  So they're probably like, look, we don't know where Twin Peaks came from last time. You gotta do your David Lynch thing. But everyone's also like, let's keep a little bit more attention on this.

• 58:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:13Griffin Newman?

  Let's put some like steady hands around him with good taste.

• 58:17David Sims?

  Nonetheless-

• 58:18Speaker 03

  Exactly, yeah.

• 58:19David Sims?

  Uh, David meets with her a few times and they don't get along part ways. He writes the whole thing himself. Uh, he delivers a screenplay to ABC. They order the pilot. So it's not like he fucking comes out of nowhere with the thing he makes.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:33David Sims?

  They have a, they have six pilots ordered. They only have room for about three or four, but nonetheless, strong contender.

• 58:41Griffin Newman?

  The 99 or 2000 season?

• 58:43David Sims?

  Uh, this would be, this, I think this would have gone to air in 99, probably. Um, a few other projects that Lynch passed on or sort of, you know, considered at the time, American Beauty.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 58:53David Sims?

  The Ring.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 58:55David Sims?

  And Motherless Brooklyn, uh, which, you know, was sort of kicking around at that time.

• 59:01Griffin Newman?

  Wild. All three make sense. I mean, like, those are three separate parts of the Lynch worldview.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  That's actually true. Yeah. The suburban discontent.

• 59:11David Sims?

  Right. You can see what someone saw for him in any of them, but obviously none of these went anywhere with him.

• 59:16Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 59:16Speaker 03

  J-horror.

• 59:18Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And the like sideways detective story.

• 59:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:21Griffin Newman?

  You're like, most of his movies are those three things happening simultaneously.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Can you focus on one?

• 59:26Griffin Newman?

  See three movies on his desk that are all just like, you just do this for two hours.

• 59:32David Sims?

  Uh, David Lynch's casting process famously is he basically just looks at photos and just waits until something, you know, strikes him.

• 59:38Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 59:38Speaker 03

  Well, he like really trusts Joanna Ray. Yeah. He's just like, I'm assuming this person can act if you're showing me a picture.

• 59:45Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:45David Sims?

  Um, Naomi Watts intrigues him. Australian actress who had done some Australian stuff, but I feel like when she is in this movie is mostly, I'm mostly reading that she was Nicole Kidman's roommate when she was a kid, a teenager.

• 59:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Someone, when I said I was doing this, uh, podcast, I was doing the movie for this podcast was like, is that the movie with Nicole Kidman's best friend?

• 1:00:05David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  And I was like, burn bitch.

• 1:00:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. No, I think that's a lot of it is like, they both are like, we're going to go to Hollywood and try to make it. And Nicole Kidman hits.

• 1:00:14David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:00:15Griffin Newman?

  10 years earlier than Naomi Watts does and Naomi Watts is in.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  I wonder why. So strange.

• 1:00:19Griffin Newman?

  Some of these inexplicable things, you know who I was thinking about a lot?

• 1:00:22Speaker 03

  It's so strange, isn't it?

• 1:00:23Griffin Newman?

  It is.

• 1:00:25Speaker 03

  It's not.

• 1:00:25David Sims?

  I think someone is serving the C word over here.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  Somebody.

• 1:00:28Griffin Newman?

  I understand what you're saying.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  Somebody gets married. Yeah.

• 1:00:32Griffin Newman?

  But yes, absolutely.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Griffin Newman?

  But also.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  I'm not saying she's not talented. I'm just saying.

• 1:00:37David Sims?

  But her early career.

• 1:00:38Speaker 03

  It's interesting.

• 1:00:39Griffin Newman?

  You're right.

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Griffin Newman?

  You're totally right.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Griffin Newman?

  Uh, I, I do, I was thinking a lot while watching this, both in the real Naomi Watts narrative of her career.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:48Griffin Newman?

  Leading into this movie and of course, the character she's playing where there are a lot of parallels.

• 1:00:52Speaker 03

  I, that, I was thinking that too.

• 1:00:53Griffin Newman?

  What this movie represented for her as a chance to like, basically get off the bench.

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Griffin Newman?

  This is your shot to make them take notice. Right. Um, I, I, we probably talked about this in past episodes, but this insane stat that for both Brian Singer Superman Returns. If not additionally also maybe some of the earlier developmental Brett Ratner, McG versions of trying to revive Superman.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  Uh.

• 1:01:18Griffin Newman?

  And for Nolan's Batman Begins. Amy Adams was the actress who screen tested against all of the candidates. Amy Adams was playing the role that would go to Katie Holmes. Amy Adams was playing Lois Lane. When those tapes leak out and you can see Killian Murphy in the bat suit as Batman, it's Amy Adams over the shoulder, right?

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:01:40Griffin Newman?

  And they talk about that and how like, when she got cast as Lois Lane in the Spider verse, it was, or the Snyder verse rather. It was this full circle moment, right? And you're like, okay, so Amy Adams was in this position where she had been living in Hollywood for like 10 years.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Griffin Newman?

  And was respected enough.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Griffin Newman?

  That John Papzidera, the studio, whatever was like, oh yeah, no, bring her in. She'll give the actors good things to work off of.

• 1:02:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:04Griffin Newman?

  Was nowhere near the conversation of getting either of those parts.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  Getting the parts. Yeah.

• 1:02:08Griffin Newman?

  And in both cases, you're like, would have been better than the people they hired.

• 1:02:11David Sims?

  One of them was.

• 1:02:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Griffin Newman?

  And if you're her, you're like, what isn't happening here?

• 1:02:15David Sims?

  All right, all right, all right.

• 1:02:16Griffin Newman?

  But you know, no, no, but I think this relates to the movie.

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  I agree. I was just gonna say.

• 1:02:20Griffin Newman?

  I have the goods. I'm here. I'm in the room. I'm having the conversation.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:23Griffin Newman?

  People are acknowledging me.

• 1:02:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Griffin Newman?

  And yet it's not happening.

• 1:02:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:28Griffin Newman?

  Which is the kind of thing that drives a lot of people crazy and leads to, let's say, a Mulholland Drive-esque psychology.

• 1:02:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't agree more.

• 1:02:38David Sims?

  Now we watch, it's a classic David Lynch thing. He just, she's beautiful. I want to meet her.

• 1:02:43Griffin Newman?

  She's got quite a face.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  She really does. Yeah, she's beautiful.

• 1:02:46David Sims?

  And she was like.

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:49David Sims?

  Famously, the first time he met her, she was like, I look like shit. And I feel like he wasn't that into like, you know, I wasn't giving my, my, my profile picture.

• 1:02:56Griffin Newman?

  She'd just come off a plane or some shit.

• 1:02:58David Sims?

  And so she asked me with him again, but she was basically like, this is like my story. Like, remember, she's only seeing

• 1:03:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:03:05David Sims?

  the pilot. She's not seeing Diane. She's seeing Betty.

• 1:03:08Griffin Newman?

  But that also, I imagine, seeds something in his brain where he's now seeing her at her most tired and worn down. And then a second time.

• 1:03:14Speaker 03

  And then a sec comes back.

• 1:03:15Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:03:16David Sims?

  Maybe.

• 1:03:16Griffin Newman?

  Oh, this woman has the range.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  The range to do both.

• 1:03:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  I didn't think of that because I read that story too. And I was like, ooh, I got a kind of icky feeling from that. And then I was like, oh, you just pointed it out. I was like, oh, right. He, she, he did have to see essentially both versions of her.

• 1:03:29Griffin Newman?

  And when I've heard her recount that story, she doesn't make it sound like, well, he was judging me for looking tired. I think a lot of it's her internalization.

• 1:03:36David Sims?

  She's in her head about it. No, he does say, uh, when I meet her, she looked nothing like her picture. She didn't look bad, but she didn't look like her picture. And I wanted the girl in the picture. I thought, this is crazy. I'm imagining a person who doesn't exist.

• 1:03:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49David Sims?

  Uh, so I asked if she could come back made up and she came back.

• 1:03:52Griffin Newman?

  Okay, so I'm wrong.

• 1:03:53David Sims?

  Yeah. Uh, he meets.

• 1:03:54Griffin Newman?

  But he did need to see both.

• 1:03:55David Sims?

  Laura Elena Herring, uh, was Miss USA in 1985. She's obviously like, she is such a Lynch girl.

• 1:04:01Griffin Newman?

  Married to the prince of Denmark for two years and was.

• 1:04:03David Sims?

  Been. We've all fucking flirted with a European prince or two.

• 1:04:09Griffin Newman?

  Yes. She was briefly a Von Bismarck from like 87 to 89.

• 1:04:14David Sims?

  Wasn't that later? I'm trying, but yes, certainly she was, uh, in, in some royal family. Uh, let me find it. Uh, yes. Uh, Carl Von Bismarck. So actually, you know what? He's just the fucking prince of Bismarck Griffin and Germany abolished its royal family long ago and all that. But he's still a, probably a count or whatever. You know, he's got some castles.

• 1:04:37Griffin Newman?

  Test briefly, 10 years later gets passed in a David Lynch project.

• 1:04:41David Sims?

  Well, she met him at the 92 can film festival where he's presenting Firewalk with me. And 1999 years later, Johanna Ray is like, David Lynch wants to meet you again.

• 1:04:51Griffin Newman?

  This is also the kind of person David Lynch loves to cast where it's like they're carrying over some weird energy of like, you were Miss America and then you were a countess.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  And then you were a waitress.

• 1:05:01Griffin Newman?

  And also like he loves people who have some weird meta textual history.

• 1:05:04David Sims?

  She is such a Lynch girl.

• 1:05:07Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:05:07David Sims?

  Image wise. And like, when you think about who he put in Twin Peaks.

• 1:05:10Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:05:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:11David Sims?

  And if you think about this as his next Twin Peaks, like she makes so much of just this throwback look.

• 1:05:15Griffin Newman?

  Totally.

• 1:05:15David Sims?

  Like totally looks like someone from 50s Hollywood.

• 1:05:18Griffin Newman?

  She's got Rita Hayworth vibes.

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  She really does.

• 1:05:20Griffin Newman?

  She really does.

• 1:05:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that, the, um, cause they're both Hispanic.

• 1:05:23Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:05:24David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:05:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25David Sims?

  She is Mexican.

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Griffin Newman?

  We, we will, we will talk about it more, I assume. And it like, it's certainly this movie is built in a way where of course it's more of a showcase for Naomi Watts. And it makes sense that she springboarded it, but it remains wild, the absolute disparity between the Watts trajectory immediately after this movie.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:46Griffin Newman?

  Versus like, kind of nothing immediately.

• 1:05:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:05:49Griffin Newman?

  You're like, three years later, she's Travolta's wife in The Punisher and hasn't really had good roles in between.

• 1:05:55David Sims?

  I mean, I think Laura Herring is not the actor that Naomi Watts is, I guess.

• 1:05:59Griffin Newman?

  I would agree.

• 1:06:00David Sims?

  If you made me, you know, be mean about it.

• 1:06:01Griffin Newman?

  But she's pretty excellent in this. And you at least think she should have had a better version of the career she had off of this.

• 1:06:08David Sims?

  She, she's just perfect for this movie.

• 1:06:10Griffin Newman?

  She is.

• 1:06:10David Sims?

  And perfect for David Lynch. Like, there's no question. Justin Theroux, uh, kind of nobody at this point, right? Like, what did Justin Theroux been in?

• 1:06:20Griffin Newman?

  That's a good question.

• 1:06:21David Sims?

  Uh, no offense to him. I mean, he's had a great career.

• 1:06:24Griffin Newman?

  You're throwing bombs left and right.

• 1:06:25David Sims?

  I guess, oh, right. You know what? He's in Romeo and Michelle's High School Reunion and he's so funny.

• 1:06:29Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 1:06:31David Sims?

  He's in American Psycho. He's one of the zillion.

• 1:06:34Speaker 03

  Yes, he is in American Psycho. Yeah. He's in the business card scene.

• 1:06:35Griffin Newman?

  But that's basically concurrent with this pilot being.

• 1:06:38David Sims?

  That's true.

• 1:06:39Speaker 03

  That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:40David Sims?

  Um, you know, uh, you know, he, I, so I don't, there's nothing really, there's definitely no like, I saw his picture and I fell in love. I mean, I don't know. He's great casting.

• 1:06:50Griffin Newman?

  And I shot Andy Warhol. Yeah.

• 1:06:51David Sims?

  Obviously, a lot of the other parts here, Robert Forster, Monte Montgomery, Ann Miller, like, that's more classic Lynch of like, you know, I want these old Hollywood people, like who, it's a whole, it's a Hollywood story.

• 1:07:04Griffin Newman?

  Or Monte Montgomery, my buddy who has a vibe.

• 1:07:08David Sims?

  He's old Hollywood, though.

• 1:07:09Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11David Sims?

  And, uh, yes, we, we write the Money Montgomery story. You know, Dan Hedaya, for whatever reason,

• 1:07:19David Sims?

  David has always thought that Angelo Badalamenti looks like Dan Hedaya's brother.

• 1:07:23Griffin Newman?

  Oh, that kind of.

• 1:07:24David Sims?

  And he's like, I want to do that now. I would like you two to play brothers in Mulholland Drive.

• 1:07:29Speaker 03

  Oh, that's him. I didn't know that.

• 1:07:31David Sims?

  Yes, he's the guy who hates the espresso. Yes, he is.

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  I did not know that.

• 1:07:36Griffin Newman?

  Shit.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. If you could see my face right now, listeners, I'm gooped.

• 1:07:42David Sims?

  It's fun to tell people that.

• 1:07:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I had no idea.

• 1:07:44David Sims?

  Apparently Billy Ray Cyrus came in to talk about another part. I'm not sure.

• 1:07:49Griffin Newman?

  The name of what's role? I think he.

• 1:07:51Speaker 03

  Betty, Betty slash Diane.

• 1:07:53David Sims?

  I got a real strong take. And Lynch said he was Gene the Pool Guy, which I don't know how Billy Ray should be taking that.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  I know, no, it's that's.

• 1:08:02David Sims?

  He is kind of incredible, so.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  He's amazing.

• 1:08:06Griffin Newman?

  We don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but Billy Ray Cyrus has blamed him being on this movie for the dissolution of his family.

• 1:08:12David Sims?

  He.

• 1:08:12Speaker 03

  Excuse me?

• 1:08:13Griffin Newman?

  When he and his wife were getting divorced and Miley Cyrus was going through her, like, I'm trying to own being an adult and having sexual agency era out of like Disney stardom. And Billy Ray Cyrus went to the press and he was like, my whole family is strayed from the path of good. We were corrupted by Hollywood. None of this would have happened if David Lynch hadn't cast.

• 1:08:30David Sims?

  No, what he says, I will, I do want to give Billy Ray credit, that he does say that David Lynch, I love him and he changed my life.

• 1:08:37Griffin Newman?

  He doesn't blame.

• 1:08:38David Sims?

  But right, but he's like, because.

• 1:08:40Griffin Newman?

  It started the path.

• 1:08:41David Sims?

  I was in it. I was right. My kid was now in Hollywood while I was doing that.

• 1:08:45Speaker 03

  Oh, I see.

• 1:08:46David Sims?

  And I remember feeling, quote, this is Billy Ray Cyrus, not me, this might not be what God had in mind.

• 1:08:53Griffin Newman?

  And then what he chooses to do is continue to ride it out, make a ton of money playing her dad on her show. Like, it's not like, he's not saying like Lynch cursed us.

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Griffin Newman?

  But he's like, that was the siren song that called me over to Hollywood.

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:09:07Griffin Newman?

  And then now my daughter, can you believe it?

• 1:09:09Speaker 03

  I did not put that together.

• 1:09:11Griffin Newman?

  Has a body and my wife doesn't want to be married to me.

• 1:09:14David Sims?

  Who's his wife?

• 1:09:16Griffin Newman?

  Well, now she's married to Dominic Purcell.

• 1:09:18David Sims?

  Oh, old potato head.

• 1:09:19Griffin Newman?

  Trish Cyrus? Maybe?

• 1:09:23David Sims?

  Uh, he's amazing in Mulholland Drive, Billy Ray Cyrus.

• 1:09:25Speaker 03

  He is fantastic. Yeah.

• 1:09:27Griffin Newman?

  He's, he, he. I mean, he cucks the shit out of.

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:09:30David Sims?

  There's nothing, if I ever get cocked.

• 1:09:32Griffin Newman?

  Last guy.

• 1:09:32David Sims?

  It better be Billy Ray Cyrus and he better, like, as I walk in, just be like, just, just leave.

• 1:09:39Griffin Newman?

  Just leave, just get out of here. Your attitude is if, if.

• 1:09:43David Sims?

  I'll just be pumping with my fist.

• 1:09:44Griffin Newman?

  You have to be cocked.

• 1:09:46David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:46Griffin Newman?

  This is who you want it to be.

• 1:09:47David Sims?

  It'd be great.

• 1:09:48Griffin Newman?

  I'm like, this would piss me off so much.

• 1:09:50David Sims?

  If it was this exact situation, you'd like be.

• 1:09:52Griffin Newman?

  His energy.

• 1:09:53David Sims?

  You would go paint mode?

• 1:09:54Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Paint mode?

• 1:09:56David Sims?

  Pouring paint.

• 1:09:57Griffin Newman?

  I, I, I paint a fucking jewelry.

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  I don't know what this says about me, but now that we're, I never thought this, watching the movie, but now that we're talking about it. What does it mean about me that I would just walk away?

• 1:10:09David Sims?

  Oh, you would be like, you know what, buddy, 10-4, I'm out of here.

• 1:10:12Speaker 03

  I'm out of here.

• 1:10:12David Sims?

  You know what? Fucking eternal sunshine, baby.

• 1:10:15Griffin Newman?

  And lid would remain on, you're saying?

• 1:10:18David Sims?

  I'm turning on the window wiper.

• 1:10:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would just get back into the Porsche.

• 1:10:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  I'd go golfing.

• 1:10:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:24Speaker 03

  And I'd deal with it later.

• 1:10:25Griffin Newman?

  Right. Yeah, I do think to some extent, if I walked in on the love of my life in bed with Billy Ray Cyrus.

• 1:10:33Speaker 03

  But is she the love of his life?

• 1:10:35David Sims?

  I don't know that she's the love of his life. She doesn't seem that nice.

• 1:10:37Griffin Newman?

  Good point.

• 1:10:38Speaker 03

  You know, like, she seems.

• 1:10:39Griffin Newman?

  Let me re, no, I think you're right, and let me rephrase it.

• 1:10:42David Sims?

  So funny too, where she's like, now you've done it.

• 1:10:47David Sims?

  I kind of know what she means.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  Why I would because of that, because she said that.

• 1:10:51Griffin Newman?

  I think you're right.

• 1:10:52David Sims?

  Fuck the pool guy in peace without you being here and it being a problem.

• 1:10:55Griffin Newman?

  And I was like, let me correct my statement.

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  Fair, fair babe, fair.

• 1:10:58Griffin Newman?

  If I were dating someone and I walked in, she was in bed with Billy Ray Cyrus, that was her energy and that was his energy? I'd go like, well, this was never gonna work out.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I gotta go.

• 1:11:10Griffin Newman?

  How can I feel offended? It's insane that you were ever dating me if this is what you.

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're gonna hear from the lawyer.

• 1:11:14Griffin Newman?

  You're into this?

• 1:11:14Speaker 03

  I would be more like. You're gonna hear from the lawyer. I would probably iPhone time, just take a picture and leave.

• 1:11:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:20David Sims?

  I just would like to speak for the audience, uh, listening right now, uh, uh, the ones who are, uh, thinking, I would lose my fucking mind and scream and rage. Just wanna put that out there.

• 1:11:31Griffin Newman?

  Ben would fucking.

• 1:11:32Speaker 03

  What Ben would do? Forty pink cats.

• 1:11:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:11:35David Sims?

  What if Billy Ray Cyrus fucked your wife?

• 1:11:37Speaker 03

  Fiance.

• 1:11:38Speaker 04

  Fiance.

• 1:11:38David Sims?

  Oh, are they not married?

• 1:11:39Speaker 03

  Maybe it's because.

• 1:11:40Griffin Newman?

  No, I'm saying in Ben's.

• 1:11:41David Sims?

  Oh, oh, oh, I'm saying we're specifically going to.

• 1:11:43Speaker 03

  I guess maybe.

• 1:11:44Speaker 04

  I would light a cigarette, take a couple puffs, throw it on the ground and burn the house down.

• 1:11:49David Sims?

  Wow.

• 1:11:49Speaker 03

  Jesus Christ. Maybe it's because I'm gay.

• 1:11:52David Sims?

  I just.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  Maybe it's just because I'm gay.

• 1:11:53David Sims?

  I think I would also just be like.

• 1:11:55Speaker 03

  I mean, I love.

• 1:11:56David Sims?

  I'm not this. If you wanted this, like, all right, take a tumble with old B.

• 1:12:00Griffin Newman?

  My attitude is just, my basic operating principles of a human being is if you break my heart, myiki break your heart.

• 1:12:07David Sims?

  Oh, keep going, keep going.

• 1:12:10Griffin Newman?

  I just don't think you'll understand. What's the next line?

• 1:12:14David Sims?

  I don't know.

• 1:12:14Griffin Newman?

  I don't know, I just have to make that though.

• 1:12:15Speaker 04

  I think it, and if you break my heart, again, it just brings it back.

• 1:12:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, a lot of repetition.

• 1:12:20David Sims?

  They shoot the pilot from Old Holland Drive.

• 1:12:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:23David Sims?

  Everyone has a really nice time making it and Disney does not seem dissatisfied with the dailies.

• 1:12:30David Sims?

  Jack Fiss said he got a little trouble from Disney getting their money to like build sets and stuff, but that just sounds like working with anything.

• 1:12:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. Well, it's because fucking Scrooge McDuck was wearing payroll at the time. He's not lending out those fucking coins.

• 1:12:43David Sims?

  In.

• 1:12:43Griffin Newman?

  He got through the backstroke.

• 1:12:45David Sims?

  In April 1999, Lynch delivers an initial cut.

• 1:12:49Griffin Newman?

  He gave me a knowing look. Go on.

• 1:12:51David Sims?

  An initial cut that runs over two hours, two hours, five minutes.

• 1:12:54Speaker 03

  Jesus. Oh, so they have to get it down to 80.

• 1:12:56David Sims?

  ABC is like, David, 88 minutes.

• 1:12:59Griffin Newman?

  Respectfully?

• 1:13:00David Sims?

  That is your, that is your edict here.

• 1:13:02Speaker 03

  And then how many, how much, how, how much is ads?

• 1:13:06David Sims?

  That's what I'm saying. I think they're like, if you give us 88 minutes, it can be a two hour.

• 1:13:09Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, yeah, got it, got it.

• 1:13:10Griffin Newman?

  At a time where the longest any episodic show is, is 44 minutes. Like, that's what's crazy to think about is he delivered something that was over two hours and they were like, we were being generous by asking for 88.

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  Minutes.

• 1:13:24Griffin Newman?

  Double what everyone else is doing.

• 1:13:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27David Sims?

  So pretty quickly from Mary Sweeney, Lynch's editor and, you know, longtime sort of collaborator partner, says.

• 1:13:34Griffin Newman?

  In life and in work.

• 1:13:35David Sims?

  Yes, I think they were, the minute they saw it, they were immediately kind of like, we're not going to do this.

• 1:13:40Griffin Newman?

  It's right. You didn't recapture the magic. It's not going to be Twin Peaks again.

• 1:13:44David Sims?

  88 minutes, whatever. He did get it down to, like, the pilot you could, that you can watch in very shitty VHS form, it's sort of floating around, is 90 minutes. So he clearly, you know, he gave them what they wanted, but he didn't really give them what they wanted.

• 1:13:58David Sims?

  According to the network, it's not that good, it's slow.

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  The actresses, the actresses are old.

• 1:14:07David Sims?

  That was, I think, something. I mean, which is funny because, right, with Twin Peaks, he's smartly is sort of like, it'll be like a high school show, so there's all these young people in it.

• 1:14:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16David Sims?

  Along with my lovely collection of freaks.

• 1:14:18Griffin Newman?

  To them, it's like, why are you discovering actresses who are already in their 30s?

• 1:14:23David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:14:24Griffin Newman?

  These people aren't famous and they're older than 25.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  I have been in that, I have been in that position before.

• 1:14:30Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 1:14:30Speaker 03

  In casting, where if you're looking for somebody of a certain age.

• 1:14:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:14:35Speaker 03

  You do kind of get into this weird space where you, you have to get, let's say, let's just say, a male in his 50s. Let's just say that.

• 1:14:45Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:14:46Speaker 03

  And you, you need to either get an A-list actor. You know, somebody that has, if you're 50, you've either been working for decades.

• 1:14:57Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:14:57Speaker 03

  Or no one has found out about you.

• 1:14:59Griffin Newman?

  Right. If you're, even if you're not presently A-list, they want someone who at one point was A-list.

• 1:15:04Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:15:04Griffin Newman?

  And you could bring them back.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  Exactly. Like, because you don't, you, discovering somebody at the age that Naomi Watts is.

• 1:15:13Griffin Newman?

  That's a thing.

• 1:15:14Speaker 03

  Is odd.

• 1:15:15Griffin Newman?

  And it's one of the things this fucking movie is about, to a certain extent, this, this feeling of desperation, right? And going back to sort of the Amy Adams thing, Amy Adams and Naomi Watts, both people who seemingly didn't go crazy.

• 1:15:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:26Griffin Newman?

  And when they got their deserved shot, we're like, great, I'll get to work, I'm professional.

• 1:15:30Speaker 03

  And I'm not saying it doesn't happen because it happens to Naomi Watts with this move.

• 1:15:34Griffin Newman?

  It does.

• 1:15:34Speaker 03

  You know, like, so it's not.

• 1:15:35David Sims?

  Of course it happens.

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  But it is when you're in that position, you're in David Lynch's position, it's odd.

• 1:15:40Griffin Newman?

  The industry does genuinely go, wait a second, if you are over 25 and it hasn't happened yet.

• 1:15:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:47Griffin Newman?

  And other people haven't taken the chance on you.

• 1:15:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Griffin Newman?

  What do they know that we don't?

• 1:15:51Speaker 03

  That we don't, exactly.

• 1:15:53Griffin Newman?

  Fear-based.

• 1:15:53Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:15:54Griffin Newman?

  There must be a reason we have not yet uncovered.

• 1:15:57Speaker 03

  I realize.

• 1:15:58Griffin Newman?

  Why hasn't this apartment rented?

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  That's what.

• 1:16:00Griffin Newman?

  It's low, the price is low, it's been on the market for two years.

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  And this does.

• 1:16:04Griffin Newman?

  It must have bedbugs.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  And this.

• 1:16:06Griffin Newman?

  Right? Like, that's sort of their thinking. They're like, if you're thirty and you haven't gotten famous yet, then there's a problem.

• 1:16:12Speaker 03

  And it does relate back to the movie, because

• 1:16:16Griffin Newman?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  What you're saying, which is absolutely correct, is it is a fear-based way of thinking, and Hollywood, the main fuel

• 1:16:26Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  of Hollywood is fear.

• 1:16:27Griffin Newman?

  And those, right, the people who are making the decision,

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  It's not even money.

• 1:16:30Griffin Newman?

  deciding your fate, it's fear.

• 1:16:31Speaker 03

  It's fear.

• 1:16:32Griffin Newman?

  It's absolutely fear.

• 1:16:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:33Griffin Newman?

  They're operating on a fear-based system, and then they are thus creating

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:37Griffin Newman?

  on the people whose lives they control

• 1:16:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:39Griffin Newman?

  an even greater sense of fear.

• 1:16:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Griffin Newman?

  And so you end up in this state where you feel like you're in a fucking David Lynch movie.

• 1:16:45Speaker 03

  It's

• 1:16:46Griffin Newman?

  And you're like, what is this reality I am in? Does it ever change? Do I ever become the other person I want to be?

• 1:16:53Speaker 03

  The movie.

• 1:16:53Griffin Newman?

  And what is the exchange of that? What do I have to do in order to get that?

• 1:16:57Speaker 03

  And that, that's literally what you just

• 1:16:59Griffin Newman?

  What do I need to protect and make sure I don't give up?

• 1:17:01Speaker 03

  You just

• 1:17:02Griffin Newman?

  That's the whole fucking movie.

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  That's the logline of the movie.

• 1:17:04Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  That's the logline of the movie.

• 1:17:05Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:17:05Speaker 03

  And that's why I'm only half joking when I say it's a biopic. Like, it's, like, it's my

• 1:17:10Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:17:10Speaker 03

  Because I, and I even think at the young age that I saw it, which was twenty,

• 1:17:14Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 1:17:15Speaker 03

  you know, I, I still sort of, as somebody that was in theater school and wanted, had aspirations Yeah. It just, it did cement in my mind, you know, this is what you're entering into.

• 1:17:26Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:17:26Speaker 03

  It, it, it isn't Sunset Boulevard.

• 1:17:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:29Speaker 03

  Which is like a big, uh, you know, he's got the car, he's got Paramount, he's got the, the street sign.

• 1:17:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:37Speaker 03

  He wanted to put some of the score

• 1:17:40Griffin Newman?

  I've said it over, sure.

• 1:17:41Speaker 03

  in the movie, um, uh, so it's not gonna be that.

• 1:17:45Griffin Newman?

  It's also interesting to think about this movie being, whatever it is, fifteen years after Blue Velvet.

• 1:17:52Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:17:52Griffin Newman?

  And the amount of hand-wringing

• 1:17:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:55Griffin Newman?

  in the press and such, of people being like, is this movie exploitative? Is it evil? How dare he do this to Isabella Rossellini?

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:18:03Griffin Newman?

  Is it abusive? And it's like, that woman becomes his

• 1:18:08Griffin Newman?

  Life partner.

• 1:18:09Speaker 03

  Wife.

• 1:18:09Griffin Newman?

  For a number of years, wife.

• 1:18:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Griffin Newman?

  Long-term partner, you know, and has always been like, no, I felt completely treated properly.

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Griffin Newman?

  And for him to 15 years later, make this thing that is in many ways about his own experience coexisting in LA, but it's also sort of him doing this act of like, what does it feel like to be on that side of it?

• 1:18:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:28Griffin Newman?

  And is there a position where you can feel like, no, I have complete autonomy. I want the guy to do the version of the scene where we get real close. And I'm choosing to do this and I'm getting juice from it and my performance is great. And then maybe 15 years later, do you back up and go like, what the fuck was I doing?

• 1:18:46David Sims?

  Exactly. I think that's.

• 1:18:47Griffin Newman?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:18:48David Sims?

  Well, anyway, we can talk, I want to talk about that scene later. We're going to go through Mulholland Drive like a fine-tooth comb, but I do want to tell you that ABC passed on the pilot. I'm sorry to break this news to you.

• 1:18:57Speaker 03

  Shocker.

• 1:18:57David Sims?

  May of 1999, they said no.

• 1:18:58Griffin Newman?

  I'm just hearing this for the first time right now.

• 1:19:00David Sims?

  Um, Lynch now says it's a blessing.

• 1:19:02Griffin Newman?

  Standing at the tarmac, putting a finger behind my ear.

• 1:19:04David Sims?

  Lynch says, look, I do think the first thing I sent them was too slow, the two-hour cut, but then I do think the finessed cut was kind of not good, like.

• 1:19:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, compromised.

• 1:19:13David Sims?

  Right. The rhythms of it were off and I look back on it now and I'm like, it was fate. It's better. The way it turned out was the way it was supposed to turn out. The show that everyone assumed they, ABC would put it on Thursday night at nine. The show instead that they order is a show called Wasteland. A Kevin Williamson show, follow-up to Dawson's Creek, starring Sasha Alexander and Rebecca Gayhart, gets canceled after three episodes.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  And doesn't it get canceled like, uh, like the, the day or the week that Straight Story goes into theaters?

• 1:19:43David Sims?

  That sounds right. 1999, fall of 1999 or something.

• 1:19:46Griffin Newman?

  It's so freeing to think about David Lynch at this point, just like deeply entrenched in two different sides of the Walt Disney Company. Like a movie he made independently with foreign financing is now bought by them.

• 1:19:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57Griffin Newman?

  And released by them at the same time he's working at ABC and trying to get through their development process.

• 1:20:02Speaker 03

  I also just can't imagine Lynch in the development process.

• 1:20:06Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 1:20:06David Sims?

  It is hard to imagine any of this, and I do think from what I've read about it, it's like, he has a person who's usually good at like, kind of right, being a middle person between him and a studio.

• 1:20:17Griffin Newman?

  What I'm trying to say is. Right, like.

• 1:20:21David Sims?

  But the other, also like, hey, David, the studio said this, like, but maybe knows how to finesse that with him.

• 1:20:26Griffin Newman?

  And also, at this point, he is like a proven brand. Like, all these people bring him in for the meeting or like, oh, he's doing the David Lynch thing.

• 1:20:33Speaker 03

  It's David Lynch.

• 1:20:33Griffin Newman?

  To some extent, they must be excited that they're like, where does he fucking get these ideas? Who else talks this way?

• 1:20:40David Sims?

  Rumors.

• 1:20:41Griffin Newman?

  Kiyok, kiyok?

• 1:20:41David Sims?

  Rumors circulate that HBO might pick it up. I'm finding the goofy was one of the execs in the room. Okay. That's right. It was, yeah, it was ABC. Uh, doesn't happen, sits on a shelf. Pierre Edelman at, uh, Studio Canal, who has worked with Lynch in the past, finds out about it.

• 1:20:55Griffin Newman?

  The French HBO, basically.

• 1:20:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:57David Sims?

  Sure, I mean.

• 1:20:58Griffin Newman?

  Canal Plus is, right.

• 1:21:00David Sims?

  TV, but they have a film division.

• 1:21:02Griffin Newman?

  They produce the rental films. But just to create a sloppy analog for people who don't know.

• 1:21:07David Sims?

  He's basically like, there's a David Lynch project, complete or almost complete. It's a jump ball. That's there?

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  That's sitting there.

• 1:21:15David Sims?

  Right. Uh, he finally hears about it and Lynch is like, look, I don't, you know, I don't want to hear about that. I don't want to think about that anymore. Like, it didn't work out. Edelman raises $4 million to buy back the rights.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  Sorry, not to interrupt you, but he also hates that the pilot is out there.

• 1:21:33David Sims?

  He does. He's very upset that I can watch it.

• 1:21:35Speaker 03

  Yes, he's very upset about it.

• 1:21:36David Sims?

  Which I had respected his wishes until I was like, I'm doing a podcast and I'm finally gonna see what it looks like. And I know Mulholland Drive so well now that I will be okay.

• 1:21:44Speaker 03

  Pierre buys it for $4 million.

• 1:21:45David Sims?

  $4 million, uh, then he.

• 1:21:48Speaker 03

  The money against this movie at this point, what is it, 12 million?

• 1:21:51David Sims?

  That sounds right.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:21:52David Sims?

  I guess. It's like, right, sort of 7 mil of Disney's money, another four or so of Pierre's money.

• 1:21:58Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58David Sims?

  Uh, they have to then essentially convert it from TV pilot form to cinema form. So they have to deal with that.

• 1:22:06Griffin Newman?

  What amount of time had elapsed from when they filmed the pilot?

• 1:22:11David Sims?

  I will, I will tell you, he gets $2 million more dollars, basically told, go shoot a third act.

• 1:22:17Speaker 03

  So 14 million?

• 1:22:19David Sims?

  Yeah, we're, we're, we're piling on here. Um, Lynch is, uh, anxious. Like, he's like, I don't know if I, like, you know, if I have a third act. Maybe he should have tried transcendental meditation.

• 1:22:31Griffin Newman?

  I hear it works very well.

• 1:22:34David Sims?

  He's worried that like the sets have been struck, like, how am I even gonna do it? And so there's a lot of anxiety about that, but, you know, they figure it out. Supposedly, Tony

• 1:22:48David Sims?

  Krantz, the agent guy who we've been talking about, who had sided with Disney, basically, and sort of, you know, helped fuck the project, threatened to sue him at one point.

• 1:22:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, they had a big, a big falling out.

• 1:23:00David Sims?

  Seems very fraught.

• 1:23:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01David Sims?

  But then finally, David Lynch sat down in a chair and the final act of the movie came to him lol, as JJ put in the research here.

• 1:23:08Griffin Newman?

  Beautifully said.

• 1:23:09David Sims?

  I sat down in a chair at 6:30 and at 7, all of the ideas were there. They came out of darkness and made themselves known. Cool. Sounds good.

• 1:23:15Griffin Newman?

  At 8 o'clock, you take a shower.

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  But that's classic him. It's just classic him. He's just like, remember, there's one interview with him where he says, if you forget an idea, if I forget an idea, you fall in love with ideas, and if I forget an idea, I want to kill myself.

• 1:23:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:23:38Speaker 03

  He says, I'm gonna commit suicide.

• 1:23:39Griffin Newman?

  Every idea is valuable.

• 1:23:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43David Sims?

  And so he starts writing, and yes, they essentially, you know, almost all of the reshooting they do is the third act of the film. They do a little bit, I think, of finessing for the stuff they already have, but basically, they're just reusing that.

• 1:23:57Speaker 03

  Like wankies.

• 1:23:58David Sims?

  But they, right, but then they do also, of course, have to like call Naomi Watts and be like, good news, Mulholland Drive is back. Interesting news, the third act is you is a new character. There's lots of sex scenes. There's gonna be nudity. This is gonna now be a feature film in like, you know, Europe.

• 1:24:13Speaker 03

  And so your contract, your contract completely changes. I'm assuming there's some sort of renegotiation of the salary, because it's so different.

• 1:24:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, there has to be.

• 1:24:24Speaker 03

  That right?

• 1:24:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:24:25David Sims?

  Yes, oh, 100%.

• 1:24:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. I mean, I, I do think it's, it's one of the fascinating, just sort of like in the soup things about this movie is when her character shifts, it's not just that she is a skilled actress who is playing a second character.

• 1:24:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:40Griffin Newman?

  But it's like, you feel like she is a fundamentally different actor.

• 1:24:44Speaker 03

  I can't.

• 1:24:45Griffin Newman?

  Her approach is different to the parts.

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  She does.

• 1:24:48Griffin Newman?

  Not in terms of process, not in terms of interpretation of character, where I'm like, this is the difference of when she's shooting the pilot.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  Agreed.

• 1:24:54Griffin Newman?

  It's that nervous pilot energy of like, this might be the next 15 years of my life. Am I on this forever? This is my big shot. And then by the time they go and film the third act, she's gone through the process of like grieving for the thing that went away.

• 1:25:07Speaker 03

  That's right. That's right.

• 1:25:08Griffin Newman?

  I guess it doesn't fucking happen. And coming back to do it, you feel her having kind of don't give a shit energy.

• 1:25:14David Sims?

  They also, they also like magically fuck up her teeth. It's incredible. I don't know what they did.

• 1:25:18Speaker 03

  What was that?

• 1:25:19David Sims?

  I don't know.

• 1:25:19Griffin Newman?

  It's so weird.

• 1:25:20Speaker 03

  It's so weird.

• 1:25:21David Sims?

  I do know what you're saying.

• 1:25:22Griffin Newman?

  There's a sense of abandon with how she plays the last act that is someone who doesn't have anything to prove.

• 1:25:27David Sims?

  So they shot it, just to answer your question, Griff, uh, in October 2000. So we're talking basically like close to 18 months after they shot, you know, the original.

• 1:25:35Griffin Newman?

  Imagine the fucking cycles.

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  It is a mindfuck, yeah.

• 1:25:39Griffin Newman?

  Of, of the true, like, creative career grieving.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Griffin Newman?

  In those 18 months.

• 1:25:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:44David Sims?

  Um, the film premieres at the 2001 Cannes Film Festival, Liv Ullman's jury, insane journey, jury gives it to The Sun's Room, the Palme d'Or, which is like an okay movie.

• 1:25:53Griffin Newman?

  It splits Best Director with Man Who Wasn't There.

• 1:25:55David Sims?

  Lynch shares the Best Director Prize with Joel Cohen.

• 1:25:58Speaker 03

  Wait, what one, Palme d'Or?

• 1:25:59David Sims?

  Uh, The Sun's Room. It's an Italian drama about a family that loses.

• 1:26:02Griffin Newman?

  The film that beat Sun's Room.

• 1:26:06David Sims?

  It comes out, it was released by Universal slash Focus in America, came out October 2001, expanded to about 250 screens, made about 7 million, domestic $20 million worldwide.

• 1:26:16Griffin Newman?

  And let's give it this way, Leslie.

• 1:26:18David Sims?

  And was well received.

• 1:26:18Griffin Newman?

  It might seem like weird, like, oh, The Sun's Room beat Mulholland Drive and Man Who Wasn't There? That feels like rude. And then you step back and you're like, well, if you look at the Cannes competition slate in 2001, Mulholland Drive did win one award over Shrek.

• 1:26:35David Sims?

  Shrek was there.

• 1:26:35Griffin Newman?

  I just want everyone to think about, they were in competition the same year.

• 1:26:41David Sims?

  Of course they were. In that Cannes? Yep. 2001 Cannes Film Festival, a great slate, including Creedence Distance, Man Who Wasn't There, Millennium Mambo, a wonderful movie.

• 1:26:53Griffin Newman?

  And people were like, Shrek might win.

• 1:26:55David Sims?

  Moulin Rouge. Mulholland Drive, The Piano Teacher, the Haneki movie. Oh my god, I love that movie. The Son's Room, What Time Is It There, one of my favorite movies, and of course Shrek.

• 1:27:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, no, this slate makes perfect sense, The Son's Room.

• 1:27:06David Sims?

  Oh, I love The Piano Teacher. I think The Son's Room, which I have seen, was just, it's a weepy, it's a well-made drama that's well-acted.

• 1:27:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, like Shrek.

• 1:27:15David Sims?

  Yeah, like Shrek. Mulholland Drive came out, and yeah, people thought it was okay, and so Ben, do you want to hit stop on the recording? We're done?

• 1:27:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, thank you so much.

• 1:27:23David Sims?

  Let's talk about Mulholland Drive. Film begins with a jitterbuggy scene, jitterbugging scene. My god.

• 1:27:32Griffin Newman?

  When we did our Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon episode with David Ehrlich, he said, has any movie ever announced it's a masterpiece faster than Crouching Tiger does? Which he said half is a joke, but he was just like, the title, the beginning of the score, the first image you see of the city. I'm not saying the opening of this movie is bad, but if you were to pause it on the first 15 seconds, I don't think most people

• 1:27:57David Sims?

  Which I just did.

• 1:27:57Griffin Newman?

  would expect, flat-out masterpiece, widely accepted as one of the greatest films ever.

• 1:28:02David Sims?

  That's so funny of you to say.

• 1:28:03Griffin Newman?

  It does not begin like a masterpiece in an obvious way.

• 1:28:05David Sims?

  Well, okay, I suppose, I love the

• 1:28:08Griffin Newman?

  I think it's a great opening.

• 1:28:10David Sims?

  I pointed out to my friend recently, like, that's the jitterbug competition. And she was like, oh, I never thought about it that way, I just kind of let that wash over me. And I was like, oh, okay, well, that's the, that she says she won a jitterbugging competition.

• 1:28:22Griffin Newman?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:28:24David Sims?

  See, I was surprised to realize a lot of people don't put this together, because they're like, oh, I'm in a David Lynch movie, like, you know?

• 1:28:30Griffin Newman?

  I thought he was just, I thought he was

• 1:28:32David Sims?

  Just referencing swing.

• 1:28:33Griffin Newman?

  That's what I thought too. I thought it was swing dancing.

• 1:28:36David Sims?

  Doing like a sock hop.

• 1:28:37Griffin Newman?

  It's like people changing positions and whatever.

• 1:28:39Speaker 03

  I did. I did. I did think that was.

• 1:28:41Griffin Newman?

  Well, clearly I didn't read the 10 clues clearly enough because number one, pay particular attention in the beginning of the film. At least two clues are revealed before the credits.

• 1:28:51David Sims?

  The most important thing before the credits and the thing that makes me laugh every time I think about Mulholland Drive and how people are like, what is going on? Like, and when I say people, I realize I'm talking about abstract things. Lots of people understand Mulholland Drive very well. You have the jitterbug.

• 1:29:09Griffin Newman?

  Thank you, David.

• 1:29:10David Sims?

  I'm not saying you. I'm saying like, I just hate saying you.

• 1:29:12Griffin Newman?

  So you think I don't understand?

• 1:29:13David Sims?

  You don't understand shit. No, no.

• 1:29:15Griffin Newman?

  I didn't know it was the jitterbug.

• 1:29:16David Sims?

  Then there is a point of view shot of someone's head hitting a pillow.

• 1:29:20Griffin Newman?

  Shirt, yeah.

• 1:29:21David Sims?

  That is like, it's like, it feels like a studio. No, I know it wasn't like the studio being like, I don't know that people are gonna get that it's a dream. Can we have like a shot of someone going sleepy time bed buys on their big red pillow? Like, I'm just worried. Like, it's just funny.

• 1:29:37Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:29:37David Sims?

  That the movie starts with someone going to sleep.

• 1:29:40Griffin Newman?

  And people are like, I don't fucking get it. What could this possibly be?

• 1:29:45David Sims?

  I know lots of people get it. It's a dream story.

• 1:29:48Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:29:50David Sims?

  It began, so it begins with someone going to sleep and then we see the opening credits, which were the opening credits of the pilot, which are the, the car snaking through Mulholland Drive as that beautiful music plays. The title shot of the, you know, the sign with the lights flickering on it. Such a cool shot. Credits rolling and Laura Herring, this glam bomb of a lady.

• 1:30:11Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:30:12David Sims?

  In a slinky dress.

• 1:30:13Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:15David Sims?

  Is gonna get murdered in the car, we assume, or right outside of it?

• 1:30:19Griffin Newman?

  Driven to, it feels like nowhere good.

• 1:30:21David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:30:22Griffin Newman?

  It's just immediate bad vibes.

• 1:30:24David Sims?

  Like they have a gun and then some joyriding teens disrupt this assassination and cause a big car crash and then she's, stumbles down the hills into LA.

• 1:30:34Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:30:34David Sims?

  The city of angels.

• 1:30:35Griffin Newman?

  And as she stumbles, her memories. Fallout.

• 1:30:37David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:30:39Speaker 03

  It's also very comical that she travels from Mulholland Drive. On foot.

• 1:30:47Griffin Newman?

  Yup.

• 1:30:48Speaker 03

  To West Hollywood.

• 1:30:50Griffin Newman?

  Very much my experience of Los Angeles.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  And it's still, and it's still nighttime.

• 1:30:53David Sims?

  That was my, my.

• 1:30:54Speaker 03

  It's just, she would, that would take her a day and a half.

• 1:30:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:57Speaker 03

  A day and a half to get there.

• 1:30:58David Sims?

  It's also, like, she's in high heels. How's she scaling this?

• 1:31:01Speaker 03

  It's just, it's just, I know, I know I shouldn't take it.

• 1:31:03David Sims?

  That was the first hint, right? I got that something was askew.

• 1:31:07Griffin Newman?

  No, you're right. You're right. Pre-ride share apps, when I would go out to LA to like pilot season, do auditions, fucking take meetings, whatever.

• 1:31:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:14Griffin Newman?

  I'd show up at places and they'd be like, do you need parking validated? And I'd be like, no, I walked.

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:19Griffin Newman?

  And they'd go from where? And I'd go Santa Monica. And they were like, that would take five hours. And I was like, yes, it took five hours. That's why I'm caked in sweat. I would just fucking walk.

• 1:31:27Speaker 03

  I took the bus. I straight up took the bus.

• 1:31:31Griffin Newman?

  I would do that as well. If I could take the bus, I would take the bus.

• 1:31:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Griffin Newman?

  Sometimes the bus was so complicated and the amount of transfers.

• 1:31:38Speaker 03

  A lot of transfers, yeah.

• 1:31:38Griffin Newman?

  Or you miss the time and you're like, the next one's in half an hour. It's actually faster if I walk for two hours?

• 1:31:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46David Sims?

  I'm surprised he didn't skateboard.

• 1:31:48Griffin Newman?

  Um, I'm not that cool.

• 1:31:50David Sims?

  Then, uh, the next thing we see is the great Robert Forster looking like a primo snack.

• 1:31:57Griffin Newman?

  A million bucks.

• 1:31:57David Sims?

  I wanna say.

• 1:31:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, he looks great. He really looks good.

• 1:31:59David Sims?

  The great Brent Briscoe, Brent, Brent Briscoe, who's, uh, we've shouted out.

• 1:32:03Griffin Newman?

  A guy we've talked a lot on the show, a rainy favorite, of course.

• 1:32:06David Sims?

  Exactly. Great character actor.

• 1:32:08Griffin Newman?

  But it is so funny where you're like, well, these two guys would be like the, the sort of like Greek chorus of the mystery you imagine on a series version of this.

• 1:32:17David Sims?

  Not to talk about the pilot too much, but weirdly Briscoe is in the opening credits and Robert Forster is credited as a special guest star. Now, I don't know if that's Forster just getting some kind of like special billing.

• 1:32:28Griffin Newman?

  Can I tell you what my guess would be? And Leslie, I think you'll probably back me up on this, especially at this point in time where people who were considered movie actors, there was a stigma against TV.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:32:38David Sims?

  So it'll be, it's like how Edward Herman is always billed as a special appearance on Gilmore Girls, even though he's in every episode.

• 1:32:43Griffin Newman?

  Where they're like, even if you have like a contractual. You're guaranteed X number of episodes. You don't want to be locked into the regular thing where they actually own you.

• 1:32:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:54Griffin Newman?

  So you're like-

• 1:32:54Speaker 03

  For seven seasons, that's the thing.

• 1:32:55Griffin Newman?

  That's the thing.

• 1:32:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32:56Griffin Newman?

  At pilot stage, you're signing up for seven seasons potentially. So a guy like Forster is like, I will probably do every episode, but you need to structure my contract in a way where I could bail it.

• 1:33:04Speaker 03

  I could leave at any time, yeah.

• 1:33:06David Sims?

  So we see Laura Herring, her character is not yet named, but we'll take the name Rita.

• 1:33:12Griffin Newman?

  She has amnesia. She sees a Gilda poster.

• 1:33:14David Sims?

  Hiding, right, but she hides out in this woman's house. We see this woman with red hair, who we actually see again at the end of the movie.

• 1:33:21Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:33:21David Sims?

  But, you know, supposedly Diane's aunt.

• 1:33:23Griffin Newman?

  Sees a woman leaving the house and is like, great, open house.

• 1:33:27David Sims?

  And goes and hides out. The next scene in the film is the Winkie's diner scene.

• 1:33:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:32Speaker 03

  It's wild.

• 1:33:33David Sims?

  It comes quite early.

• 1:33:33Speaker 03

  I was, really did not remember that it was that early.

• 1:33:38David Sims?

  I didn't either, in which Patrick Fischler, and who's the other guy?

• 1:33:43Griffin Newman?

  Uh, that's a good question.

• 1:33:45David Sims?

  He's got, because he's also got kind of a recognizable face.

• 1:33:47Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:33:48David Sims?

  Are sitting at Winkie's diner, which-

• 1:33:51Speaker 03

  Is it Denny's?

• 1:33:52David Sims?

  I, right.

• 1:33:52Speaker 03

  At Gower, Gower Gulch, which is just-

• 1:33:56David Sims?

  Is it still there?

• 1:33:57Speaker 03

  The Denny's, I probably not. When I lived there, it was.

• 1:34:01David Sims?

  It's on Gower and-

• 1:34:03Speaker 03

  Gower and Sunset.

• 1:34:03David Sims?

  Gower and Sunset.

• 1:34:04Speaker 03

  And it's this weird little, I mean, I know it has some history of like the Copper Penny or whatever, but like, you know, in the mid 2000s when I was there, the Denny's was still there.

• 1:34:15Speaker 03

  And it was a, it's like a little strip Molly.

• 1:34:18David Sims?

  The actor's name is Michael Cook.

• 1:34:20Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:34:20David Sims?

  Found out.

• 1:34:21Speaker 03

  What's he from? Just a bunch of shit.

• 1:34:24David Sims?

  Not much, yeah.

• 1:34:24Griffin Newman?

  He has on a Wikipedia page.

• 1:34:26David Sims?

  No offense to him, yeah. Embarrassing for him.

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  How embarrassing.

• 1:34:30David Sims?

  But he played Casino Letcher in Showgirls.

• 1:34:33Griffin Newman?

  Well, hey, so he's one of our favorites.

• 1:34:36David Sims?

  Uh, sorry, about the Denny's, yes.

• 1:34:37Speaker 03

  No, no, no, it, it just, uh, when I was talking about, you know, these kind of spaces in Los Angeles, this, this scene very much sums up that, you know, shitty middle of, middle of nowhere, but in the midst of everything.

• 1:34:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and, and by the way, these are the types of spaces where I feel- Most comfortable in L.A.

• 1:34:57David Sims?

  But I think.

• 1:34:58Griffin Newman?

  Like these weird, like, what is this diner that feels like it's in the middle of the suburbs, but is actually?

• 1:35:04Speaker 03

  But it's actually on Sunset.

• 1:35:06Griffin Newman?

  And feels kind of frozen in time. Like, when I would take these fucking two-hour walks to appointments.

• 1:35:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:10Griffin Newman?

  And I could find a diner like that in between, I'd go inside and I'd be like, I feel safe now.

• 1:35:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, that's true. Yeah.

• 1:35:16Griffin Newman?

  Psychologically.

• 1:35:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:17Griffin Newman?

  Not like from assassins.

• 1:35:19David Sims?

  I think what Leslie said is is interesting.

• 1:35:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:23David Sims?

  Because I don't, what do you guys think of the Winkie scene? It's an incredible scene. I have never been so scared in a movie theater in my life.

• 1:35:28Speaker 03

  Well, it sets you off balance immediately.

• 1:35:31Griffin Newman?

  And it's fascinating that that wasn't part of the pilot.

• 1:35:33David Sims?

  It's not.

• 1:35:33Griffin Newman?

  I would have guessed it was.

• 1:35:35Speaker 03

  Because the, the, the, something I'd noticed this time around, it sets you off, I mean, I remember seeing this in the theater and just being like, this is the most terrifying scene I can think of. But it, I hadn't lived in L.A. yet, so I didn't really recognize this as like the shithole, um, safe, safe haven that it is.

• 1:35:56Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:35:57Speaker 03

  But the, the real thing is the, is the coverage with the jib doing figure eights, basically. The, the camera never settles.

• 1:36:05Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Speaker 03

  Ever in the, in the, in the overs.

• 1:36:08Griffin Newman?

  Which just keeps you on edge. You're like, why is the camera not locking down?

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  It just won't stop. It just, so you never get your bearings in terms of, is someone gonna stand up?

• 1:36:19Griffin Newman?

  And, and, yes, and the rhythms of the camera do not feel like they are in sync with the rhythms of the performance of the actors.

• 1:36:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:25Griffin Newman?

  You're like, what's motivating this?

• 1:36:26David Sims?

  The thing with Fischler too, who'd only been in like a couple of movies at this point.

• 1:36:31Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:31David Sims?

  Is.

• 1:36:32Griffin Newman?

  One of my favorites.

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  He's so good.

• 1:36:33David Sims?

  He's got such an incredible face.

• 1:36:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:36:36David Sims?

  And he's nervily describing to this, the other guy, no offense to Michael Cook, the casino lecher that he is, he looks like a regular fucking, you know, Hollywood guy in his 40s, right?

• 1:36:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's the point. Yeah.

• 1:36:46David Sims?

  Fischler's got these eyebrows.

• 1:36:47Griffin Newman?

  Voice.

• 1:36:48David Sims?

  He's right, he's got this, and, and he's describing to the guy, like, I had this terrifying dream and you were in it.

• 1:36:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:54David Sims?

  I was here, you were standing over there, and there was something behind the diner that was so scary, I woke up and I can't even think about it. It's so scary.

• 1:37:01Speaker 03

  I never want to see that face in, in, in, in real life.

• 1:37:04David Sims?

  Now, trying to confront essentially what happened to me in my dream.

• 1:37:07Griffin Newman?

  Yes. One, Lynch is a guy who mostly makes films that if not directly inspired by his dreams, operate on dream logic. It is often used in shorthand that the most annoying, boring thing.

• 1:37:18David Sims?

  Is telling someone about your dream. Sure. Right. Yeah.

• 1:37:20Griffin Newman?

  And here this guy is like 20 years into his career, basically opening the movie with a scene he inserts later. After just like a prologue that you can't make sense of, here's the first scene that's on its face, kind of straightforward. Right? And it's a guy explaining his dream.

• 1:37:35David Sims?

  True. That's true.

• 1:37:37Griffin Newman?

  Which is interesting to me.

• 1:37:38David Sims?

  It's.

• 1:37:38Griffin Newman?

  It's the first time dreams have been like textual in his movies outside of.

• 1:37:42David Sims?

  It's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean. Right.

• 1:37:45Griffin Newman?

  Like attaching that on to what's already pre-existing text.

• 1:37:48David Sims?

  I would, I would actually disagree with you, you know, because dreams are very, very important to Twin Peaks.

• 1:37:51Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:37:52David Sims?

  Because Twin Peaks is Cooper saying, I had a dream FYI, and we have to now do this thing because I had this dream and of course, my love, Harry Truman being like.

• 1:38:00Griffin Newman?

  Elephant Man's basically about a guy who can't dream and wants the dream.

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  I just had this, I just remembered in Lynch on Lynch, he tells this story about that he would go to this Denny's. I think it was this actual Denny's that he shot in and, and, and he felt, again, he's attracted to this like wholesome.

• 1:38:15David Sims?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:38:16Speaker 03

  So you going there as a safe haven actually now makes a little bit, it like clicks for me.

• 1:38:21Griffin Newman?

  I think I connect to the same things Lynch does that feel comforting. Like there is this part of me, even as a weird city boy.

• 1:38:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:27Griffin Newman?

  That's like that kind of suburbia frozen in time 50s aesthetic feels really comfortable.

• 1:38:32David Sims?

  How much should I say about what I think this scene is about?

• 1:38:35Griffin Newman?

  Say everything.

• 1:38:36David Sims?

  All right.

• 1:38:37Griffin Newman?

  Can I make one second? I can point very quickly before you say this, because I think this is really fascinating. I don't know if any of you know this. In the Lynch casting of like how he loves to use nepo babies or like former old Hollywood stars.

• 1:38:50David Sims?

  People who have like some Hollywood.

• 1:38:52Griffin Newman?

  Have some weight.

• 1:38:52David Sims?

  In them. Right.

• 1:38:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Griffin Newman?

  Patrick Fischler's father ran, it just announced it was closing very recently, a legendary sort of like dive diner in Santa Monica. Called Patrick's Roadhouse. He named it after his son and his son was the mascot and says he basically fell in love with acting by being like the Barker outside the restaurant.

• 1:39:11David Sims?

  Hanging out with these actors who would come hang out.

• 1:39:13Griffin Newman?

  This place, if you're driving down to Santa Monica, you will always see it on the road and it's got.

• 1:39:17David Sims?

  Sign.

• 1:39:19Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:39:19David Sims?

  It's very cool.

• 1:39:19Griffin Newman?

  And it's got all sorts of shit on the roof. It's like, what if the aesthetic of like a TGI Fridays was on the roof instead of on the walls?

• 1:39:26David Sims?

  It has like a T-Rex and a Statue of Liberty and shit on the roof. It looks pretty good.

• 1:39:31Griffin Newman?

  The kind of place that I guarantee you Lynch loves, right?

• 1:39:34Speaker 03

  Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

• 1:39:35Griffin Newman?

  And here's this scene in a diner.

• 1:39:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39:38Griffin Newman?

  That is being carried by an actor whose father ran this kind of diner. That is notorious within the industry and people who live there. And that is his legacy. Whether that's intentional or not, it's all the interesting, like meat.

• 1:39:53Speaker 03

  No, I think it is.

• 1:39:54Griffin Newman?

  Cause he loves to cast people who are carrying something with them.

• 1:39:57David Sims?

  No, that's interesting.

• 1:39:58Griffin Newman?

  Whether it's stated or not.

• 1:40:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:00David Sims?

  So, all right, well.

• 1:40:01Griffin Newman?

  Give me your.

• 1:40:02David Sims?

  Well, just to be clear, what happened, and Leslie, whatever you want, but what obviously what happens is they have this conversation. The moment that to me actually sort of sticks with me the most is he's like, so now you go pay. And, you know, go be where you were in my dream.

• 1:40:17Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:40:17David Sims?

  And then he looks at him when he's standing there and looks terrified. And then, of course, they go outside and Lynch does this amazing thing where he switches to the POV of him like walking down the stairs and you're like.

• 1:40:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, the steady cam and then.

• 1:40:29David Sims?

  It's so like, and.

• 1:40:31Speaker 03

  And then weirdly, like he clocks the payphone, you know, like it's like, he's like tagging stuff.

• 1:40:36David Sims?

  There's garbage over there. Why am I going back here? It's the middle of the day.

• 1:40:40Griffin Newman?

  It's like first person shooter of mundanity.

• 1:40:42Speaker 03

  I was thinking too, that, that it was just this weird kismet thing that this is, uh, that in Zodiac. Um, the Lake Berryessa scene is the scariest daylight scene.

• 1:40:53David Sims?

  Right. Daytime, daytime scares are hard to do, but if you pull them off, very scary.

• 1:40:57Speaker 03

  This would be like a, a, a very close second. Of just like, there's no shadow, there's no cover, and yet this is absolutely terrifying.

• 1:41:05Griffin Newman?

  And much like we talked about in that episode about that scene, you're like, what is unnerving is the weird sense of like normalcy around this horrifying thing.

• 1:41:13Speaker 03

  He's walking, he's walking.

• 1:41:15Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:41:16Speaker 03

  There's.

• 1:41:17David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Griffin Newman?

  And you're like, the tension, this is unbearable.

• 1:41:19David Sims?

  You can tell.

• 1:41:19Speaker 03

  He is tense. He's sweating. Yeah.

• 1:41:21David Sims?

  The audience is like, this is a David Lynch movie. What the fuck is about to happen? And what happens is an insane noise plays and a weird, dirty hobo slides out. And the guy seemingly kind of like has a heart attack and you lose your mind.

• 1:41:36Griffin Newman?

  Played by Bonnie Aaron, the nun.

• 1:41:38David Sims?

  That's right. Played by the nun.

• 1:41:39Griffin Newman?

  Played by the nun.

• 1:41:40David Sims?

  Of Blumhouse's The Nun.

• 1:41:42Griffin Newman?

  Of The Nun fame, the titular role.

• 1:41:44David Sims?

  Famously, they built some prosthetic for her. And Lynch was like, no, like, I just want, just put shit all over her face. I want her bone structure.

• 1:41:53Griffin Newman?

  She has an incredible face and The Nun is basically the same deal where they like, put a lot of paint on her, but they don't change her bone structure.

• 1:42:02David Sims?

  And she, I read an interview with her. She says, what she mostly remembers is that how hot David Lynch is. She was like, it was a lot of him like staring at me and like, you know, us carefully putting together the look. And I was so, I was looking in his eyes a lot of the time, but he's so, he's so hot.

• 1:42:18Griffin Newman?

  Gorgeous.

• 1:42:18David Sims?

  She says hot, which I really like. She was horny for Lynch.

• 1:42:23Griffin Newman?

  Do you know what's interesting? This is another like point about her bone structure.

• 1:42:28Griffin Newman?

  There's this thing where like, if characters are largely created through prosthetics, the studio can claim they own the likeness. Cause it's not your underlying face. And they have cut her out of like merchant shut for The Nun. Because they were like, well, it's our design we own.

• 1:42:43David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:42:43Griffin Newman?

  And she's like, it's my fucking face.

• 1:42:45David Sims?

  It is your face. You just built on my face.

• 1:42:47Griffin Newman?

  There's no rubber. You just painted.

• 1:42:49David Sims?

  Right. But I don't mean built physically. I mean, like, they took her face and they embellished.

• 1:42:54Griffin Newman?

  But they can't argue like, well, but the nose is ours.

• 1:42:57David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:42:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:58Speaker 03

  No, it's her.

• 1:43:00David Sims?

  I just feel like.

• 1:43:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I want, I want your take on this.

• 1:43:03David Sims?

  What you said about the winkies is so interesting to me. About the diner, the actual location. That it's like this, cause I do feel like this is some sort of like, it's a, the movie is largely a dream, right? For 90 minutes of the movie, we are in Betty's dream.

• 1:43:19Speaker 03

  I wanna, I wanna go on the record and say, I don't think it's a dream.

• 1:43:22David Sims?

  Okay.

• 1:43:22Speaker 03

  I think it's, I think it's about a dream.

• 1:43:25Griffin Newman?

  I like this.

• 1:43:26Speaker 03

  That's what I would say. But let's keep going. Let's keep going. I just wanna make that clear before we.

• 1:43:29David Sims?

  Subscribe to sort of the, the general theory of like, this is mostly a dream and then the back half of the movie, the back half of the movie. She wakes up and she's different.

• 1:43:37Speaker 03

  But why do we think that's reality? Why do we think that's, cause it's actually.

• 1:43:40Griffin Newman?

  I'm, I'm with you.

• 1:43:41David Sims?

  No, no, no, wait a second.

• 1:43:42Speaker 03

  I kinda wanna litigate it. Okay, we'll get there. We'll get there.

• 1:43:45Griffin Newman?

  Point first and then we'll.

• 1:43:46David Sims?

  I'm not saying that this is like, this is the definitive take on Mulholland Drive. All the evidence is there.

• 1:43:51Griffin Newman?

  The 10 clues.

• 1:43:54David Sims?

  But we are with Betty for most of the time. You know, we're with Naomi Watts, like this scene, this is a person she doesn't know, right? But we are with, much later in the film, this is where she, Diane, you know, the real Betty, or whatever, other Betty, asks Mark Pellegrino to kill Camilla.

• 1:44:17Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:44:18David Sims?

  To do a bad thing. And when she's doing that, she goes, she looks over and sees Patrick Fischler standing there.

• 1:44:26Griffin Newman?

  Standing there, yeah.

• 1:44:27David Sims?

  And it's this moment of fucking, his eyes are boring into her because he's Patrick Fischler. God bless him, his eyes bore into you.

• 1:44:34Griffin Newman?

  He's got those pussy willows over those eyes, too.

• 1:44:36David Sims?

  He's got those big old brows. He looks like that meme of, have you seen this face, right? In your dreams. And it's like she was being seen.

• 1:44:47Griffin Newman?

  Pasta, yeah.

• 1:44:48David Sims?

  Exactly, at the lowest moment of her life, or the, you know, darkest moment of her life, right? And it's like, we're, you know, the diner is this like liminal space, right? It's like in between dream and reality, which you're saying the real diner kind of is. You're like, what is this doing here?

• 1:45:05Griffin Newman?

  It's like the surge protector in Wreck it Ralph. It's where all the. Right?

• 1:45:10Speaker 04

  That's another Ben's choice.

• 1:45:11Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, that was a big one.

• 1:45:13David Sims?

  Both of them.

• 1:45:14Griffin Newman?

  Both of them, we dimmed together.

• 1:45:16David Sims?

  Like, and what this guy is doing in this scene, be he a real guy or not, is he's kind of like, I had a dream about this place, I want to go into it, right? I'm trying to kind of recreate the dream. I'm going into the liminal space of trying to think about this.

• 1:45:31Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 1:45:32David Sims?

  Trying to recreate it.

• 1:45:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:33David Sims?

  And like.

• 1:45:34Griffin Newman?

  Which is basically what Lynch tries to do as an artist.

• 1:45:36David Sims?

  Yeah, exactly. Like, and it's like, he's sort of crossing, or he's like trying to.

• 1:45:41Griffin Newman?

  Literally like stage directing.

• 1:45:42David Sims?

  Right. And like, shit is wonky, like you're saying, the camera work is wonky, like the perspective's just, who are these people? What is that thing behind there? Like, I don't know, like, that's the classic Lynch thing of. Bob, or all these creatures he creates where it's like some kind of representation of an evil or a force or you know, like you can do whatever you want with it.

• 1:46:03Speaker 03

  What's your take on it?

• 1:46:05David Sims?

  That's my take. Is that really clear? That what I just said?

• 1:46:11David Sims?

  That like, just that like you're in that like, that is like a because of the thing.

• 1:46:17Griffin Newman?

  Winkies itself is the transitional point between states of consciousness.

• 1:46:20David Sims?

  But I'm not saying it in a way of like, if you go there, you get to go into the dream world. I'm just saying like, it's just like.

• 1:46:24Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's what Rick and Ralph.

• 1:46:25Speaker 03

  Well, I would say that my experience of watching.

• 1:46:27David Sims?

  There's like a blurriness to that place.

• 1:46:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:46:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:30David Sims?

  And that's, you know, what he, why he's drawn there and why it freaks him out and why the thing from his dream is there or what.

• 1:46:37Griffin Newman?

  This is what I like about talking about dreams is that feeling where you wake up and you're like, huh, I have a weird feeling. I can't shake it, even though whatever I was just going through immediately now doesn't exist.

• 1:46:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:46:49Griffin Newman?

  You have some lingering feeling and then for me, at least this is how it often works. Like halfway through the day, something I will come across will trigger the memory. Fuck, that's what the dream was.

• 1:47:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:47:01Griffin Newman?

  And then I start reconstructing. Oh, okay. So that was, that was part of it. And then what was the other things there? And you're trying to understand, why was I dreaming this and why did it fuck me up so much?

• 1:47:11David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:47:11Griffin Newman?

  Why is this still being held in my body, which is basically what he's trying to do? Like, let me go back to the space of here in the diner, you stand there. Can I like reconstruct this in a way where then I can deconstruct it?

• 1:47:23Speaker 03

  I think that, I think as we go through this, I feel like I don't have, I think it'll be really interesting, this conversation, because I think I would love to hear, I really am dying to hear takes of like, this is what, but I also feel like what I can contribute to the conversation is the experience, again, the experience of it. Like when I was sitting in the theater and I watched the scene, to me, first of all, I didn't understand what the fuck was going on until, this scene was the scene that locked me in. And I just, I went boom, I'm in the movie now.

• 1:47:55David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:56Speaker 03

  Like up until this, I mean, the amnesia girl, I was kind of like, okay.

• 1:48:00David Sims?

  I mean, it's a setup, you get it.

• 1:48:01Speaker 03

  Copy, yeah.

• 1:48:02David Sims?

  Sure, right.

• 1:48:02Speaker 03

  But this actually locked me somehow into the movie. I was now, you know, for lack of a better term, like hypnotized into the movie. And I think that the experience of it is everything that you guys said, the setting, the performances, the sort of odd retracing the steps. But to me, it's almost the thesis statement of the movie. Rather than meanings, again, rather than meanings.

• 1:48:24David Sims?

  I like it, I like it.

• 1:48:25Speaker 03

  Is that he's describing a dream and then the dream is now in reality.

• 1:48:30David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:48:30Speaker 03

  So there is, there's a, so there, there are two things that are concurrently happening.

• 1:48:35David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:35Speaker 03

  There's, there's the dream and then there's the reality.

• 1:48:39David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:48:39Speaker 03

  And that those two things actually do exist at the same time.

• 1:48:43Griffin Newman?

  I agree. So this is what's interesting to me.

• 1:48:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:45Griffin Newman?

  And David's probably about to tell me that I'm wrong.

• 1:48:47David Sims?

  No, I'm not gonna tell you who you're, there's no wrong with this movie.

• 1:48:50Speaker 03

  With this movie, no.

• 1:48:51David Sims?

  Is my fundamental belief. You can think whatever you want, like.

• 1:48:54Griffin Newman?

  I, I watched this and my interpretation more is that the last act of the film is the dream.

• 1:49:00Speaker 03

  A lot of people would make that, yeah.

• 1:49:02David Sims?

  I fucking said, you are gonna say that and you. Why do you think the last act of the film is the dream? Why? Because two tiny little people come out of a box? Like what? That doesn't happen to you in real life? What are you, what are you talking about?

• 1:49:12Griffin Newman?

  But to my point, I think you are the most right, even more right than Big Smart David.

• 1:49:17Speaker 03

  Let's be, let's be, let's argue right now.

• 1:49:19Griffin Newman?

  Because it's about the relationship between the two.

• 1:49:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:49:22Griffin Newman?

  That's, that's the actual truth of the movie, right?

• 1:49:25Speaker 03

  Cause I think one of the things.

• 1:49:26Griffin Newman?

  That to some degree, it's about the blurriness of the relationship too.

• 1:49:29Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:49:29Griffin Newman?

  It's a woman looking at another woman and going, I wish I were her and being both sides of her.

• 1:49:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:34Griffin Newman?

  And you could read either way.

• 1:49:37Speaker 03

  So that, that's why I say it, it isn't, I don't think the movie's a dream. I think the movie's about a dream.

• 1:49:41Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 1:49:42Speaker 03

  Because I think that he, Lynch talks a lot in, in McKenna's book.

• 1:49:46Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:49:47Speaker 03

  About how he believes the mind works this way. He doesn't, he, he, he believes that the mind is not separating.

• 1:49:56Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 1:49:56Speaker 03

  Dream from reality.

• 1:49:57Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:57Speaker 03

  That like you were saying, you can be walking, you can have had a dream, then be walking in, in. Reality.

• 1:50:03David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:03Speaker 03

  See something and then you're back in the dream.

• 1:50:05David Sims?

  I sort of know what he means.

• 1:50:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:06David Sims?

  He's trying to describe an indescribable feeling that I think anyone has had.

• 1:50:11Griffin Newman?

  Can I briefly tell a stupid dream story? It is brief. Don't sigh that loudly.

• 1:50:16David Sims?

  I think I should have sighed loud.

• 1:50:18Speaker 03

  But not that.

• 1:50:19David Sims?

  I agree. Actually, Ben, if you could actually like put bump up.

• 1:50:22Speaker 03

  I would bump that up.

• 1:50:22David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:23David Sims?

  Put a little reverb on it.

• 1:50:24Griffin Newman?

  All right.

• 1:50:30Griffin Newman?

  This story will make me sound crazy and I swear that's the point. I'm doing that on purpose.

• 1:50:34David Sims?

  Go ahead.

• 1:50:35Griffin Newman?

  In college.

• 1:50:35David Sims?

  Watching the clock.

• 1:50:36Griffin Newman?

  I have a dream. I think this is after I see Into the Wild, where there is the scene where Kristen Stewart begs Emile Hirsch to sleep with her and he says like, I can't. You don't know what you want and leaves her. I had a big crush on her as an actress. I was like, I cannot imagine someone making that choice to leave the fucking trailer.

• 1:50:57David Sims?

  This on the podcast multiple times. That, that, that feeling.

• 1:51:00Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 1:51:01David Sims?

  Your revulsion at the very idea that someone would reject Casey Sturz.

• 1:51:04Griffin Newman?

  A week later, maybe, I have a dream that is the most like emotionally mature interpretation of me being in a relationship I had ever had or felt in my life, in which the person is Kristen Stewart, but I am consciously in the dream going, God, Kristen Stewart's good in this dream. She is playing a character.

• 1:51:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:51:24Griffin Newman?

  It's a Kristen Stewart type performance in a different context. She's not an actress, this and that. And I go through this whole cycle of how we meet and how we date and then I'm going back to college. She's in a different city and is able to be able to work long distance. And I wake up the next morning and I, I'm in college in California. I don't have a car. I begged my friend. I'm like, you have to drive me to fucking Blockbuster. And I go through the used DVD bin to find any Kristen Stewart movie. And I'm like, I can't process this until I watch her in the film.

• 1:51:51Griffin Newman?

  I'm now like hung up on this idea of this fake character she played and I need to somehow like create a separation of reality again. And I like find a used DVD of In the Land of Women and I watch it and I'm like, okay, she exists back again in movies.

• 1:52:04Speaker 03

  I don't know if I should build on this because I do feel like it will, we're, we're 15 minutes into the movie.

• 1:52:11David Sims?

  Keep going.

• 1:52:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:52:12Griffin Newman?

  Bill.

• 1:52:12Speaker 03

  I, I think that that is an experience that I've had many, many times. Many, many times.

• 1:52:19Griffin Newman?

  I would cast actors in my dreams all the time.

• 1:52:21Speaker 03

  Specifically Mark, Mark Ruffalo. I, I, I, I.

• 1:52:25Griffin Newman?

  Kind of the Kristen Stewart of men.

• 1:52:26David Sims?

  Mark Ruffalo, you can be in my dreams anytime.

• 1:52:29Speaker 03

  He actually is.

• 1:52:30Griffin Newman?

  In a lot of ways.

• 1:52:31Speaker 03

  I was.

• 1:52:31Griffin Newman?

  In a lot of ways.

• 1:52:32Speaker 03

  You know, saw, you can count on me a year before this.

• 1:52:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:36Speaker 03

  In the theater.

• 1:52:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:37Speaker 03

  That man dropped into my consciousness in a way that I could not shake.

• 1:52:42Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 1:52:42Speaker 03

  I could not shake until he played the Hulk. And then I was like, I'm free.

• 1:52:45Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:46Speaker 03

  I'm free. He's gone mainstream.

• 1:52:47David Sims?

  He's always angry.

• 1:52:48Griffin Newman?

  Leslie, that was my exact relationship with Kristen Stewart through the Twilight. It was when she got to Twilight, I was like, you know what?

• 1:52:54Speaker 03

  I'm safe.

• 1:52:55Griffin Newman?

  She belongs to the culture now. This isn't about me.

• 1:52:57Speaker 03

  I'm safe. I'm safe. You know, I just.

• 1:52:59Griffin Newman?

  The exact same arc.

• 1:53:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

• 1:53:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:02David Sims?

  Ben, what does the Winky scene mean to you, if anything? Do you have any like?

• 1:53:06Griffin Newman?

  Oh, the Winky scene is about my experience in college and buying the DVD of In the Land of Women. That's what it's about. That is the one correct interpretation, Ben.

• 1:53:13Speaker 04

  I also find it terrifying.

• 1:53:16David Sims?

  Very scary.

• 1:53:16Speaker 04

  I feel like.

• 1:53:18David Sims?

  Would be weird if you were like normal scene. Happens, happens all the time.

• 1:53:21Griffin Newman?

  Funny.

• 1:53:22Speaker 04

  Well, yeah. I mean, don't you guys have monsters that live in your dreams come to life?

• 1:53:26David Sims?

  Slide out on friggin' dolly tracks.

• 1:53:28Griffin Newman?

  Vibes are immaculate.

• 1:53:30Speaker 04

  I feel like I have dreams where stuff that takes place then come true. And I am a little bit of a believer that I do think that sometimes your future arrives or like visions of your future arrive somehow in your dreams.

• 1:53:48Speaker 03

  Like a deja vu kind of.

• 1:53:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I have that experience a lot.

• 1:53:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:52Speaker 04

  But I also find it really terrifying how sometimes I'll be like, I feel like I've dreamt this before. Like that experience is really scary and weird.

• 1:54:04Griffin Newman?

  Well, throughout your twenties, you kept having recurring dreams about listening to idiots talk about movies for hours. And then one day we rang your doorbell and said, have you seen The Phantom Menace recently?

• 1:54:13David Sims?

  That's true. Yeah, so I, I, I find this idea of, of being like, you know what? I'm gonna actually like follow the path and I, and see where this leads. And then it's like, real is quite scary.

• 1:54:30Griffin Newman?

  Own it in your waking life in order to process it.

• 1:54:33David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:33Griffin Newman?

  In some way or another.

• 1:54:35David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:39Griffin Newman?

  David?

• 1:54:39David Sims?

  Yes?

• 1:54:39Griffin Newman?

  Uh, uh, who are you wearing?

• 1:54:42David Sims?

  Uh, who am I wearing?

• 1:54:43Griffin Newman?

  I'm doing like an impression of a red carpet correspondent, asking who you're wearing right now.

• 1:54:46David Sims?

  Well, I am wearing Quince.

• 1:54:50Griffin Newman?

  Well, well, well, what a coincidence, quince, quincident.

• 1:54:54David Sims?

  It's a Mongolian cashmere zip sweater.

• 1:54:58Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 1:54:59David Sims?

  It's a sort of a brown. Would you agree?

• 1:55:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it's like, maybe like a, what would you, a chocolate?

• 1:55:04David Sims?

  Sure. I have been seated next to people wearing this item of clothing and they have brushed against me, not to brag, and gone like, so soft.

• 1:55:11Griffin Newman?

  Oh, it's soft, boy. But listen, the best pieces in your closet are the ones that you can count on, whether you're heading to work, going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where I'm shopping for myself and everyone on my list.

• 1:55:28David Sims?

  Quince does rock. It's got high quality staples made with these premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere. 14 karat gold.

• 1:55:38David Sims?

  Italian leather.

• 1:55:39Griffin Newman?

  Mamma mia.

• 1:55:40David Sims?

  All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays. These cashmere sweaters, like the one I'm wearing, start at just $60. Lineup doesn't stop there. You've got premium down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories, everything your loved ones need to stay warm and look put together all season long.

• 1:56:00Griffin Newman?

  And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 1:56:13David Sims?

  So yeah, obviously I'm wearing Quince sweater right now. I've got Quince bedding at home. Ooh, they've got Christmas stockings.

• 1:56:20Griffin Newman?

  Oh, well, well, well. They got tree skirts.

• 1:56:22David Sims?

  They got garlands if you want to go Christmas mode.

• 1:56:25Griffin Newman?

  Your tree deserves to be dressed in Quince as well. And when it comes to gifting, Quince has a lot more than clothing. Think fine jewelry, leather bags, the aforementioned hotel quality bedding, chef-grade cookware, and five-star luggage. Basically, plenty of ways to find something special for everyone on your list. If you want to give the gift of quality this holiday season, download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's a year. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. Ding dong. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was blank check. It's the best way to support the show.

• 1:57:11Speaker 05

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• 1:57:45David Sims?

  Winkies. It's this sort of picture-perfect diner, right? It's a very, like you say, throwbacky All-American. And behind it is like this like monster. But also essentially the bum is just a homeless person. Like it's like a right, like you can take it as you like, but it is basically a dirty, unhoused person, right?

• 1:58:06Speaker 03

  May I say that when this happened in the theater, I closed my eyes?

• 1:58:10David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:10Speaker 03

  So I had no idea what happened.

• 1:58:11David Sims?

  You didn't know what they saw. You just knew something fucking happened.

• 1:58:13Speaker 03

  I knew it was something fucked up. And finally, we, you know, I watched it. I, by the way, watched it again, still did the same thing.

• 1:58:19David Sims?

  Right.

• 1:58:19Speaker 03

  It was only when I was watching it with my boyfriend at that time, where he said, "You have to watch it. You have to look at it."

• 1:58:25David Sims?

  Humble brag.

• 1:58:25Speaker 03

  And then he made me do it. It came out, I, she came out, I screamed. And I said, and I said, "Okay, it's okay, it's okay." And he was like, "Yeah, but you didn't know it was going to be a gooblin." And so now every time I see it, I think that's a Googlin.

• 1:58:40David Sims?

  That is a Googlin.

• 1:58:41Griffin Newman?

  By the way, this guy sounds great. I already like him a lot if he calls it a Googlin.

• 1:58:46Speaker 03

  He's wonderful. No, he's fucking fantastic. I'm seeing him next week.

• 1:58:49Griffin Newman?

  Hey.

• 1:58:50David Sims?

  It's like, but it right, like, you know, like, just again, if you're just thinking about this as like a weird liminal place where it's like, there's sort of window dressing over something we like to ignore. Right? Like this kind of person in terrible circumstances or this monster of an evil we can't understand, or like someone who's in control of everything, or just a person back there that isn't the real problem, but you know.

• 1:59:13Griffin Newman?

  I know I keep reading most Lynch films as being about this, but his sort of like. Guy who lost his keys, guy who has headache. But no, the incredulity of like, what are these rules of society that everyone agrees to abide by? This is so strange that we all just are like, this is normal and this is what we do and this is how we act and all this sort of shit.

• 1:59:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:30Griffin Newman?

  Talking about a diner like that as a place of comfort and security.

• 1:59:34David Sims?

  Yes.

• 1:59:35Griffin Newman?

  Part of it is you're like, well, I just need to eat food and this is comfortable and it's homey.

• 1:59:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:39Griffin Newman?

  But there is this thing of like, and there's this unspoken rule that unhoused people are not allowed to walk in here. I'm not saying that is the number one value we put on private inside spaces.

• 1:59:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:59:49Griffin Newman?

  Right?

• 1:59:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Griffin Newman?

  But in theory, it's like, if you're inside a business, there's an idea of like certain parts of reality are supposed to be kept at bay.

• 1:59:56Speaker 03

  I also like that he keeps cutting, once she leaves.

• 1:59:59Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:00Speaker 03

  He keeps cutting back to where she was.

• 2:00:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:03Speaker 03

  And there's nothing there.

• 2:00:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:04David Sims?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:00:05Griffin Newman?

  Which is also unnerving. You're like, why are we cutting back?

• 2:00:07Speaker 03

  Why are we still here?

• 2:00:08Griffin Newman?

  Why is the camera still filming this?

• 2:00:09David Sims?

  Slides out, he goes, you know, and then the music goes out and the, you know, becomes this crazy sort of sound.

• 2:00:15Griffin Newman?

  Right. They play All Star over the opening credits.

• 2:00:17David Sims?

  Oh, right. We see her slide away.

• 2:00:19Griffin Newman?

  Shrek kicks down the outhouse door. There's a flush weirdly, even though in theory there's no plumbing. Go on.

• 2:00:24David Sims?

  The next sequence is Mr. Roke, Michael J. Anderson, the small person who played the man from another place in Twin Peaks. In a full sized human suit.

• 2:00:36Griffin Newman?

  True.

• 2:00:36David Sims?

  That has been created for him to sit in.

• 2:00:39Griffin Newman?

  In the world's longest room.

• 2:00:41David Sims?

  Like in this like crazy kind of Twin Peaks-y room that's all curtains and shit.

• 2:00:45Griffin Newman?

  When you say human suit, it does sound like the Edgar suit. Men in Black. What you mean is a full size.

• 2:00:51David Sims?

  You're right. I don't know how to describe it exactly, but right, the this sort of prosthetic of a, you know, six foot tall person.

• 2:00:57Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:00:58David Sims?

  That he's sort of sitting in. And I guess one assumes if this was a TV show, we would have had more of him. It's just such a cool, like they built this crazy like rig for him to be in essentially.

• 2:01:08Speaker 03

  Oh, that make, oh, I see.

• 2:01:09David Sims?

  You know what I mean? Like he's, he's.

• 2:01:11Griffin Newman?

  Yes, yes.

• 2:01:12David Sims?

  He, you know, he's sitting, he's playing a big person.

• 2:01:16Griffin Newman?

  But he's also shot from a Ned Beatty in network distance where you're not quite sure what you're seeing for most of the time.

• 2:01:23David Sims?

  Right, you do, you know, but then.

• 2:01:24Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good reference for, for the way he is shot, right?

• 2:01:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. And it's similarly dark and distant. And there's like nothing else in the shot really other than him, even though he's so far from the camera.

• 2:01:34Speaker 03

  Also lit kind of similarly.

• 2:01:35David Sims?

  Yup. Yeah, totally. And shot in sort of shadow. Anyway.

• 2:01:38Griffin Newman?

  There's just sort of like a strip of light that's illuminating him in a lot of the other room is a little abstract.

• 2:01:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:44David Sims?

  This is the first time in a David Lynch project, Michael J. Anderson gets to like speak. Words that go forwards, like the, the whole time.

• 2:01:53Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:53David Sims?

  They were never backwards at any point. Calls someone, says the girl is missing, someone else calls someone else, someone picks up that phone and calls a red lampshade.

• 2:02:02Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 2:02:02David Sims?

  Phone is ringing, no one picks up. I'm just, I'm just mentioning that. It's very important in my opinion. And it is one of his.

• 2:02:10Speaker 03

  It's one of his.

• 2:02:10Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say. Those are the fucking clues.

• 2:02:12David Sims?

  Um, but no, it's very, well, if you got, you know.

• 2:02:14Griffin Newman?

  Notice appearances of the red lampshades, number two.

• 2:02:16David Sims?

  It's Diane's lampshade. We see it.

• 2:02:18Speaker 03

  My favorite, my favorite phone is the one that has a light right on it.

• 2:02:21David Sims?

  I love that phone too. A big, a big sort of trucker hand picks it up. What's going on there?

• 2:02:27Speaker 03

  This is wild.

• 2:02:27David Sims?

  And then we're with Betty.

• 2:02:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:29David Sims?

  Betty, beautiful Naomi Watts, getting off the plane with this, these nice old people. It's just the woman, actually. She meets her husband.

• 2:02:37Speaker 03

  She meets her husband. My, my immediate experience watching it for the first time and seeing Betty was, I hate her.

• 2:02:45Speaker 03

  Well, I hate her.

• 2:02:45David Sims?

  Because she's a pain in the ass. She's like, oh my god.

• 2:02:48Speaker 03

  I just say hate her.

• 2:02:49Griffin Newman?

  You're just like, who is this optimistic about shit? Who is this like, unhaunted? I distrust people like this, who just seem like...

• 2:02:58Speaker 03

  I also hate her sweater.

• 2:03:00David Sims?

  Her little pink cardigan?

• 2:03:01Speaker 04

  Oh my god, it's the worst.

• 2:03:03Speaker 03

  It just, it, beautiful woman, it just annoys, it's this tiny thing that annoys you.

• 2:03:09David Sims?

  Well, because it's the buttons and it's not really closing.

• 2:03:12Speaker 03

  It's not the right size.

• 2:03:13David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:13Speaker 03

  And she seems to have, again, this is why she sunk in, like, again, I am gonna keep using that word. I would sink into the scenes and really sort of make, make a split second decision of how to feel about it.

• 2:03:25Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:03:25Speaker 03

  And this one was immediately, I fucking hate this woman. Yeah.

• 2:03:29Speaker 04

  It also looks ADR, this whole scene.

• 2:03:31Speaker 03

  The whole scene is ADR.

• 2:03:33Speaker 04

  Really, really fake.

• 2:03:34Griffin Newman?

  There's like a heightened artificial emotion in this scene that unlike the Lynch, like, weird heightened uneasiness is just like, why are they acting like this? Like, it's almost like fucking Verhoeven starship troopers, like, everyone be as broad.

• 2:03:47David Sims?

  Watts talks about it.

• 2:03:48Griffin Newman?

  And as clean and as happy.

• 2:03:50David Sims?

  That Watts is like, that I would be like, I'm just so excited to be here. And Lynch would be like, more. And she'd be like, that's crazy. I can't go crazier than that. And he'd be like, yes, like, you need to be as outrageously sweet and simple as possible.

• 2:04:05Griffin Newman?

  Beyond that, it's just like, it's all surface level. It's performances that are not only really loud and large, but like, have no subtext to them, right?

• 2:04:15David Sims?

  Seemingly, at least.

• 2:04:17Griffin Newman?

  At this point, the subtext is created by the, by the film around it.

• 2:04:20David Sims?

  Who says she won a jitterbug competition in Ontario and on the back of that is like, guess it's time for me to go get cast in movies. You know, like, I'm gonna go be a movie star.

• 2:04:30Griffin Newman?

  Play great depth and as the film goes on, you start to see that bottom develop in her. But at this point, it's like, this is top floor only.

• 2:04:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:37Griffin Newman?

  She is saying the line, she's opening her eyes wide.

• 2:04:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is text.

• 2:04:41Griffin Newman?

  It's text.

• 2:04:41Speaker 03

  The, you know, the subtext comes later.

• 2:04:44Griffin Newman?

  From the movie?

• 2:04:45Speaker 03

  It comes, well, I agree that it's the rest of the movie, but it's the scene where the old people are in the back of the car.

• 2:04:50Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:04:50Speaker 03

  So smiling, it's the, it's the period on that scene.

• 2:04:54David Sims?

  Dialogue, is the two of them in the car smiling at each other?

• 2:04:57Speaker 03

  And that's, to me, that's the period of this, like, the end, like, the punctuation of the scene. Saying, now here's the subtext.

• 2:05:05Griffin Newman?

  Right, and here's the other thing. They later in the movie directly say like, "You're not fresh off the bus, are you?" Here's this scene that's basically a fresh off the bus scene.

• 2:05:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely, it is.

• 2:05:14Griffin Newman?

  But they're like, "Well, but it's a plane." You know, like, some of the details are a little different. No, no, but they do make this distinction where someone says to her, like, "You're not like one of these naive, I just won a jitterbug contest." Like, they're basically saying, "You're clearly not the kind of person that you are."

• 2:05:30David Sims?

  She shows up at her aunt's, uh, home.

• 2:05:33Speaker 03

  I want to ping this. This is very a West Hollywood.

• 2:05:37David Sims?

  Architecturally.

• 2:05:38Speaker 03

  Architect, meaning I have been in so many of these.

• 2:05:41David Sims?

  Right, these kind of like little housing courts, right? Where it's like lots of apartments and this big courtyard.

• 2:05:46Speaker 03

  Again, the old Hollywood connection. I think this is where little starlets would live.

• 2:05:51Griffin Newman?

  My friend just moved into one of these. I think literally, literally one of the ones in this lot that they found there.

• 2:05:56Speaker 03

  Like, when they mentioned Sierra, Sierra Bonita. Sierra, oh, Sierra Bonita. That was the first street I lived on when I came to LA.

• 2:06:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:07David Sims?

  The iconic Ann Miller, who, um, had basically not been in a movie since 1956. She has.

• 2:06:14Griffin Newman?

  Little break, yeah.

• 2:06:16David Sims?

  She has a tiny, tiny cameo in one other movie.

• 2:06:18Speaker 03

  She earned that.

• 2:06:19David Sims?

  I remember telling my mom, "Ann Miller's in it." And my mom being like, "What? Ann Miller is alive and in the movie?"

• 2:06:28Griffin Newman?

  And then this is her last performance too, right?

• 2:06:30David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:31Griffin Newman?

  It's her only performance across those five decades that she remains alive.

• 2:06:35David Sims?

  The iconic and beautiful dancer Ann Miller.

• 2:06:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:38David Sims?

  Best known, I think, for Easter Parade and, I don't know, On the Town and a million other, you know, Stare, Kiss Me Kate.

• 2:06:44Speaker 03

  Kiss Me Kate, yeah.

• 2:06:46David Sims?

  Playing a, again, if you're thinking about it in TV pilot form, kind of like a very Lynch-y supporting character, right? This is great. We have Peggy Lipton. You know, like, we have, we have this old Hollywood lady. Lord knows what she'll do, but she'll be around.

• 2:07:00Speaker 03

  And I don't need to.

• 2:07:01David Sims?

  Paprika, you know?

• 2:07:02Speaker 03

  Weirdly, again, like Patrick, it's like, I don't need to, I don't need to give visual context for what this person is, because they're just that person.

• 2:07:12David Sims?

  Exactly, right. There's, I mean, I'm gonna put her in Pearls and all that, but like... I mean, I think Coco, the lovely Coco, who is the nice landlady in this part of the movie, and then is this kind of imperious mom, uh, in, you know, in the later part of the movie. Right? Like, there, it is the two sides of like the old legend, right? Where you're like, oh, this is so cool, this person who has all this history in them. And then later, like, the way she's sort of scary, you're like, right, that's like a gatekeeper.

• 2:07:39Speaker 03

  Like a jaded.

• 2:07:40David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:07:41Griffin Newman?

  Well, also great.

• 2:07:42David Sims?

  Of like, everything evil in Hollywood is like, this person is like, okay, sweetie.

• 2:07:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46David Sims?

  Well.

• 2:07:46Griffin Newman?

  Here's the person on the absolute other end of the experience that we watched, wishes she could start.

• 2:07:53David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:07:53Speaker 03

  That's, this is the end, conclusion.

• 2:07:55David Sims?

  This is the, right.

• 2:07:56Speaker 03

  Even in the best of circumstances, even the best of circumstances.

• 2:07:59David Sims?

  You're the kooky landlady, right?

• 2:08:01Speaker 03

  And, and Miller being the iconic star that she was.

• 2:08:04Griffin Newman?

  You make into the tapestry of film history.

• 2:08:06David Sims?

  A name that my mom will hear and know.

• 2:08:08Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:08:08David Sims?

  Like, of course I know who Ann Miller is, yes.

• 2:08:10Speaker 03

  This is the best, this is the end.

• 2:08:12Griffin Newman?

  This is the end.

• 2:08:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:13Griffin Newman?

  Um, and that you want to desperately get to that end, and in both realities, it's like, this is where it ends?

• 2:08:18David Sims?

  Yeah. Obviously, there are some, uh, shots of dog poop, which ABC was like, why the fuck did you film dog poop, bro?

• 2:08:25Speaker 03

  I love him so much.

• 2:08:27David Sims?

  In your ABC pilot, and he's like, I put another shot, it's cutting back to it.

• 2:08:30Griffin Newman?

  And then, by the way, they got dog poop in an overall deal.

• 2:08:33Speaker 03

  I just have to say.

• 2:08:34Griffin Newman?

  Spent like, three seasons trying to slot it into different pilots, and it just didn't really stick.

• 2:08:38Speaker 03

  I want to talk about the dog poop, I want to talk about the dog shit, because, because, I think, again, this, this thing about, um, Lynch that I just fundamentally disagree with, is that he's presenting the ideal, or the good, and then he's, and then he's, he's undercutting it somehow.

• 2:08:56David Sims?

  There's worms.

• 2:08:56Speaker 03

  By saying like, again, I think it's, I think it's that one shot, that, from Blue Velvet, that cemented everybody sort of like, well, this is the take.

• 2:09:03Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:09:04David Sims?

  The underbelly.

• 2:09:05Speaker 03

  My personally, my personal opinion, the way that he talk, again, I've read sort of more David Lynch talking than watched his. I've seen this one a lot of times, but he constantly is sort of name checking that these two things exist at the same time.

• 2:09:20Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:09:20Speaker 03

  There isn't one that's better than the

• 2:09:22David Sims?

  Right, he's not saying the poop is the truth.

• 2:09:25Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:09:25David Sims?

  He's saying, no, yeah, you have your nice Hollywood courtyard, but the dog still shits in the fucking courtyard, like, and Miller says he's gonna bake his little butt for breakfast.

• 2:09:33Griffin Newman?

  These things are married.

• 2:09:34Speaker 03

  And when they, exactly. And then when she walks into the apartment for the first time, it's also POV steady cam.

• 2:09:42Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:42Speaker 03

  So it's the same, it's the same shot behind Winkie's.

• 2:09:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:46Speaker 03

  So again, you're immediately unsettled. You're like, I mean, whether you realize it or not, he's using the same language.

• 2:09:52David Sims?

  Yeah, you're like, hmm.

• 2:09:53Speaker 03

  No, no, no, when she's walking through the apartment for the first time. So you're like, at any corner, the gooblin could come out.

• 2:09:58David Sims?

  Freaking gooblins.

• 2:09:59Speaker 03

  At any moment.

• 2:10:00Griffin Newman?

  Fucking gooblins, man.

• 2:10:03Speaker 03

  And it's every, now, because of Paul, that's, that's, every time I see it, I just think, she's a gooblin.

• 2:10:08Griffin Newman?

  That's Paul.

• 2:10:08David Sims?

  Um, yes, indeed, right, she's let into this apartment, and who is in the shower behind the glass door, but Laura Herring as, uh, question mark.

• 2:10:19Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:10:20David Sims?

  Woman.

• 2:10:20Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:10:21David Sims?

  And our mystery begins. Uh, who is this woman?

• 2:10:24Griffin Newman?

  And without being crass, this is a body that reads with, like, a striking announcement through fucking tapered glass.

• 2:10:33David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:10:34Griffin Newman?

  Like, here's someone who looks like a Coke bottle.

• 2:10:36David Sims?

  Yeah, no, sure.

• 2:10:37Griffin Newman?

  Abstracted, where you're like, what is this shape?

• 2:10:40David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:10:41Speaker 03

  She was Miss USA.

• 2:10:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:10:42David Sims?

  Right. And, uh, she sees

• 2:10:44Speaker 03

  I don't think it's crass to say that.

• 2:10:45David Sims?

  She sees the Gilda poster, she decides to call herself Rita, um.

• 2:10:50Griffin Newman?

  Cause she doesn't remember who she is.

• 2:10:52David Sims?

  And, right, and

• 2:10:53Griffin Newman?

  How she got here.

• 2:10:55David Sims?

  Here we are in this Hollywood dream, and we have these two, like, golden age Hollywood archetypes. We have the ingenue, uh, you know, the, the bright eyed, bushy tailed one, and the sort of like sexy mystery, like, what's going on, dark noir ingenue.

• 2:11:10Griffin Newman?

  Rita Hayworth and Ginger Rogers.

• 2:11:11Speaker 03

  Well, I also think that, that their states of mind also sort of sum up your first experience going into Hollywood, which is one of, um, and again, I think they can exist at the same Same time, which is, you know, that exactly what you just said, the, the bright eyed ingenue. But then also this woman who has completely lost her identity.

• 2:11:30Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:11:30Speaker 03

  Like actually enters Hollywood going, I don't know who I am in any way.

• 2:11:35Griffin Newman?

  And you tell yourself.

• 2:11:36David Sims?

  I'm literally going to be a Hollywood actress.

• 2:11:39Speaker 03

  I'm gonna, yes, I'm gonna. I'm gonna create my personality in real time.

• 2:11:43Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:11:44Speaker 03

  Based on the stimuli that I'm getting from Hollywood.

• 2:11:47Griffin Newman?

  Right. Which to some people, they're like, that gives me a sense of autonomy.

• 2:11:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:11:52Griffin Newman?

  To be, I am in control of deciding which of these things I'm going to do in order to become the person I want to be.

• 2:11:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:11:58Griffin Newman?

  Versus Naomi Watts, who's like, I still believe that my path to success and immortality can be much like me winning a jitterbug contest. I show up and do what feels right to me and everyone will go, great job. Thumbs up.

• 2:12:11David Sims?

  I think she is also.

• 2:12:12Griffin Newman?

  We love your thing.

• 2:12:13David Sims?

  Like, oh, boy.

• 2:12:14Griffin Newman?

  Don't change at all.

• 2:12:15David Sims?

  A Hollywood mystery. Like, who's this?

• 2:12:18Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:12:18David Sims?

  Anyway, we move on from this to one of my favorite scenes in the movie, in a movie film.

• 2:12:24Speaker 03

  Fucking fantastic.

• 2:12:25David Sims?

  Which is Justin Theroux being sat down, hot director, you know, being sat down and said, oh, the studio just wanted to have a meeting. And in walks the two chillest people in the world, Silent Angelo Barmenti and Dan Hadaya, just looking into his briefcase. So he's just all forehead, like, it's just like dark shadow forehead.

• 2:12:44Griffin Newman?

  He's almost doing the Clooney.

• 2:12:45David Sims?

  He's doing the Clooney. And he just, like, you know, swipes over, now, I don't want to be mean about Melissa George. Do you know Melissa George?

• 2:12:53Speaker 03

  I don't know her personally, but I, I was, those, what was it, three years?

• 2:13:00Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:00Speaker 03

  That she was a thing?

• 2:13:03Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:03Speaker 03

  I sort of remember, vaguely remember that. Yeah.

• 2:13:06David Sims?

  It kind of felt like the mob was trying to force Melissa George on us in real life.

• 2:13:09Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 2:13:10David Sims?

  It feels mean for me to say this, but it is just funny that This is the Girl is about Melissa George, who is someone Hollywood.

• 2:13:16Speaker 03

  That's exactly right.

• 2:13:17David Sims?

  Don't you love Melissa George?

• 2:13:18Speaker 03

  And it's like, I don't.

• 2:13:19David Sims?

  She's fine. I don't know.

• 2:13:21Griffin Newman?

  I have no problems with her.

• 2:13:22Speaker 03

  I hate to be mean, but it's about these people, but it is so true. It's like, all, you go through these, like, seasons of, of, of faith. Is right. It's like, and I hate to be, I hate to say this, but like, in my mind, it's like the Gretchen Mall. You know, the classic, you know, no offense, you know, with the Vanity Fair. And then honestly, Ryan Phillippe. Like, I just was like, why is this person?

• 2:13:46Griffin Newman?

  I couldn't agree more.

• 2:13:47Speaker 03

  Why is this person just here suddenly?

• 2:13:49Griffin Newman?

  I feel like he is not discussed enough as the male version of that.

• 2:13:52David Sims?

  I mean, it's what happened.

• 2:13:52Griffin Newman?

  And I have always been like, I didn't ask for this.

• 2:13:54David Sims?

  But like, even a, a great actor.

• 2:13:57Speaker 03

  But again, Hollywood, Hollywood marriage.

• 2:13:59Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:59Speaker 03

  Around a little too long, around a little too long.

• 2:14:02Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh. With someone who was legit.

• 2:14:04David Sims?

  A guy I love, like Colin Farrell.

• 2:14:06Griffin Newman?

  The juice, yeah.

• 2:14:07David Sims?

  Like, you know, the initial backlash Colin Farrell faced that he then, you know, he merged and evolved or whatever. It was like people being like, we can smell you trying to force this guy on us as a movie star. And we're not sure how we feel about it.

• 2:14:18Griffin Newman?

  It's like, even though they have the juice and the talent, it's like they were sold in the way that makes you go, like, this has mafia vibes.

• 2:14:23Speaker 03

  Now, I do not want to go off on a tangent, so I'm just gonna say this very briefly, and I hate to be the person name dropping. Colin Farrell is the, is probably the, the best Hollywood meeting I've ever had.

• 2:14:34David Sims?

  Look.

• 2:14:35Speaker 03

  A stunner, a fucking stunner.

• 2:14:36David Sims?

  I am not, I am not.

• 2:14:37Griffin Newman?

  I hate to tell you, you've now, there was an off ramp and David's gonna welcome this conversation.

• 2:14:42Speaker 03

  Class act, class act, beautiful succinct, beautiful succinct conversation.

• 2:14:47Griffin Newman?

  David will not move on from this.

• 2:14:49David Sims?

  I, I will move on quickly.

• 2:14:50Speaker 03

  A beautiful text, after receiving the material.

• 2:14:53David Sims?

  A beautiful text.

• 2:14:54Speaker 03

  A beautiful, long text, incredibly written.

• 2:14:55Speaker 03

  Leslie, it was lovely to meet you. Exactly, lovely to meet you, you know.

• 2:15:00Griffin Newman?

  Do you know what David has on his desk over there?

• 2:15:02Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 2:15:04David Sims?

  It's a little Lego Colin Farrell in my narrows report. Um, Colin Farrell's my favorite.

• 2:15:08Griffin Newman?

  His number one guy.

• 2:15:09David Sims?

  My favorite guy.

• 2:15:10Griffin Newman?

  David's number one guy.

• 2:15:11Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 2:15:11David Sims?

  And Leslie, I will also say this, you are the second person I know who had a general meeting with Colin Farrell that didn't end up going anywhere, but also reported to me. That's like the best fucking meeting I ever had. Like, what a guy.

• 2:15:23Speaker 03

  Always.

• 2:15:24Speaker 04

  What did he say to you about raising your daughter?

• 2:15:26David Sims?

  I can find the quote. It's the, it's my pinned tweet on the, uh, normal website X that I never visit anymore.

• 2:15:32Griffin Newman?

  It's such a great, it's such a great quote. From the graveyard.

• 2:15:36David Sims?

  I told him that my daughter was a year old and he said, they grow, keep watering her and make sure she gets sunlight. It was so cute.

• 2:15:43Speaker 03

  Did he repeat it? Didn't he say it?

• 2:15:44David Sims?

  They grow, they grow. It was lovely. That was Koganata, a friend of Leslie Headland's.

• 2:15:51Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah.

• 2:15:52David Sims?

  Uh, when I asked to interview him for After Yang and Koganata was like, I know you love Colin Farrell. You should just talk to Colin.

• 2:15:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:00David Sims?

  And instead I interviewed them together because Colin was being an unselfish star and trying to share the... But as the interview began, Koganata was like, Colin, this guy loves you. I'm not gonna talk. Like, you should just talk to him. And I was like, no, we have to, all of us have to talk. But anyway.

• 2:16:15Griffin Newman?

  Do you folks know?

• 2:16:16David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:16Griffin Newman?

  That Melissa George?

• 2:16:18Speaker 03

  Oh, god.

• 2:16:18David Sims?

  This is the girl.

• 2:16:19Speaker 03

  This is the girl.

• 2:16:20David Sims?

  That's what the scene is, is the mob saying, this is the girl. Throh being like, what? What are you talking about? This is my movie. You can't pick my actress. What do you, you know? Uh, but what do you want to say about Melissa George?

• 2:16:30Griffin Newman?

  I wanna, I wanna pull this up, get the name right. Melissa George has patents for inventions, physical.

• 2:16:38Speaker 03

  Shut the fuck up.

• 2:16:39Griffin Newman?

  She created a thing called Style Snaps, quote, "A device intended to allow changing pant hem length without sewing" that was sold on like shopping networks in Australia and still makes tremendous money to this day. And she's like, that's my main income. It's never been acting.

• 2:16:54David Sims?

  Well, good for you, Melissa.

• 2:16:55Griffin Newman?

  Sort of like talks about her career in the way of someone on the business end of like a Mulholland Drive experience. Where she's like, the one consistent in my life, the thing that's kept me above waters, that I created Style Snaps when I was 22 years old, before Hollywood tried to sell me on everyone.

• 2:17:07David Sims?

  The aesthetics of this scene are, if someone was having a dream about how Hollywood works, a little bit, like, Justin Throh has his golf club laid out in front of him like a sword.

• 2:17:19Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:17:19David Sims?

  Right? Uh, Hidayah has the briefcase from which he's just pulling headshots.

• 2:17:24Griffin Newman?

  Here's a meeting, we are deciding that this person's a star.

• 2:17:27David Sims?

  Badalamenti is silent.

• 2:17:28Griffin Newman?

  And if you disagree, then you will be executed.

• 2:17:30David Sims?

  And then essentially, what looks like basically like a hotel bellhop, a giant man in a red jacket, comes in with a tiny espresso, gives it to Badalamenti, who drinks it and will not let it profane his throat. So it spits it onto a napkin and says it's shit. And everyone loses their mind and they're like, this is really one of the best espressos in Hollywood. And like, I don't know what's going on. And Hidayah screams at the top of his lungs.

• 2:17:54Griffin Newman?

  The people in these corridor of power. Boardroom meetings, who get to make the decisions that change the world, or at least change the entertainment we consume, the tapestry of the public consciousness in mainstream media, are lunatics who spit coffee into napkins and act like blubbering idiots. But also, all of this feels kind of completely random, right? Like, the core moment of this movie for me is Naomi Watts not to jump way ahead, nailing this audition, and then looking at this other woman and being like, "I'm about to not get this part for reasons that have nothing to do with me." And their decision of like, "We're telling you it's this girl."

• 2:18:33David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:18:34Speaker 03

  There's a, there's like a controlled chaos of this scene.

• 2:18:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:37Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, even though everyone's still-

• 2:18:39David Sims?

  It's incredibly tense, you're not really sure why.

• 2:18:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:41David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:18:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. There's like this thing, I, one thing that I wanted to ask you guys, there is like, what's interesting is that there's a hard iconography with, with some of the characters, like the bellhop.

• 2:18:51Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 2:18:51Speaker 03

  And then the, the sort of blandness of everyone else, not unlike the other guy in the winky scene. There's this sort of wash-

• 2:18:59David Sims?

  The exec guys, right.

• 2:19:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, wash of white guys in a suit.

• 2:19:02David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:19:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:03Speaker 03

  Um, but I was curious, like, what's the visual reference for Thoreau? Is it, is it Tarantino?

• 2:19:09David Sims?

  I feel like it's that kind of a guy, the black shirt, the glasses, the-

• 2:19:13Griffin Newman?

  I think it's the sub-Tarantino.

• 2:19:14David Sims?

  Right, the spiky hair.

• 2:19:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like weird, I wonder, it's like, I, I love the idea of Lynch just sort of going, he's wearing these glasses, his hair is like this.

• 2:19:24Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:24Speaker 03

  He's got a golf club, like, there's something about-

• 2:19:27David Sims?

  It's a bit of self-parody as well, like-

• 2:19:29Speaker 03

  I was gonna say.

• 2:19:29David Sims?

  Lynch with the up hair.

• 2:19:30Speaker 03

  I was gonna ask, yeah.

• 2:19:31David Sims?

  Right, you know.

• 2:19:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, that, that he's, not that he's a self-insert character, but it's like-

• 2:19:36David Sims?

  No, but-

• 2:19:36Speaker 03

  The design of the character feels like extremely-

• 2:19:39Griffin Newman?

  The younger 99 version of him, but also the version of him who is like, "Um, well, I gotta play the game to some degree," right?

• 2:19:46Speaker 03

  But he also, that you immediately clock him as the director, too.

• 2:19:49Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:19:50Speaker 03

  That's what I love about Lynch is that you're just like-

• 2:19:51David Sims?

  It's down to the golf club.

• 2:19:52Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:53David Sims?

  But it feels like Lynch, well, go ahead.

• 2:19:56Speaker 03

  So hot.

• 2:19:57Griffin Newman?

  I was gonna say, my distinct memory is watching this movie on DVD with my mother, and he comes on screen, and she gets hot and bothered. And for years after that, it was like, Justin Theroux was her number one celebrity crush.

• 2:20:08David Sims?

  Like, where's Justin Theroux? Why is he not in movies?

• 2:20:10Griffin Newman?

  And anytime we were watching something that he was in, and my dad would walk behind us and go, "Really, him?" And let's just say, kindly-

• 2:20:18David Sims?

  He's very handsome.

• 2:20:19Speaker 03

  He's a pretty boy, yeah.

• 2:20:20Griffin Newman?

  My father is about as far off from Justin Theroux as that person could possibly be. They're just very different types of men. But it was this thing of my mom being like, "Oh, Justin Theroux." Like, "I saw him on the street. I saw him at Cinderella." "Justin Theroux?" Like, she'd say it like this, and he'd be like, "He's got like tattoos and spiky hair. What are you talking about?"

• 2:20:37David Sims?

  This is, this is certainly Lynch parodying and working through hilarious, awful, evil Hollywood meanings he's had, and putting them through his filter and his, you know-

• 2:20:49Griffin Newman?

  And this is the version of him that is 20% more amenable to the terrible Hollywood notes. Right?

• 2:20:55David Sims?

  Right, but then also-

• 2:20:57Griffin Newman?

  It's a self-insult, but it's also like a kind of a shadow self version of how his career could have gone astray, say, if Dune-

• 2:21:03Speaker 03

  He didn't have Final Cut. Like, if he didn't have that, again, the blank check, like, if he didn't have that, then he'd be this guy, or he'd be stuck in-

• 2:21:09Griffin Newman?

  If Dune had gone okay.

• 2:21:12Speaker 03

  Amen, bitch.

• 2:21:13Griffin Newman?

  Right? And he was like, "I guess this is a partnership."

• 2:21:15David Sims?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:21:16Griffin Newman?

  I make movies where we meet in the middle.

• 2:21:18Speaker 03

  Dune is the best thing that ever happened to him.

• 2:21:19Griffin Newman?

  That is our exact take.

• 2:21:21David Sims?

  I think, I think it's his take too, in a way. I mean, well, he hates talking about it, but like-

• 2:21:25Griffin Newman?

  But if it had gone-

• 2:21:26David Sims?

  Put him on the path, he needs to-

• 2:21:27Speaker 03

  Well, in Room to Dream, in Room to Dream, he says that, when you, what the blessing of a massive failure-

• 2:21:32Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:21:32Speaker 03

  Is there the only way, the, the only direction is up.

• 2:21:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:36Speaker 03

  There's only, you can only go up from that.

• 2:21:37Griffin Newman?

  And also teaches you everything you never want to do again. Rather than those being abstract ideas of, "Maybe I could do something like this."

• 2:21:43Speaker 03

  Yes, that's right, that's right.

• 2:21:44David Sims?

  But within the text of the film, I do feel like, now, again, obviously, in the TV pilot version, this is clearly just going to be a plot, is, Justin Theroux plays this director-

• 2:21:54Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:21:54David Sims?

  He's, has to cast Melissa George. What happens next? Well, how will he interact with Betty? Blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 2:21:59Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:22:00David Sims?

  But if you're thinking about, you know, this is the, the, this sort of scenario of a scorned Hollywood starlet, right? Or a person who didn't make it.

• 2:22:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:11David Sims?

  This is them being like, yeah, this is how the fucking system works.

• 2:22:15Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:22:15David Sims?

  Like, it just, you know, in the wood paneled office, suddenly a shadowy mobster is like, no, you can't cast her.

• 2:22:21Griffin Newman?

  You're Amy Adams, and why are you always in the conversation, but you never get the job?

• 2:22:26David Sims?

  Um, and of course.

• 2:22:27Griffin Newman?

  It's not completely out of reach.

• 2:22:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22:29Griffin Newman?

  It's within grasp, and yet somehow you never grab it.

• 2:22:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22:32David Sims?

  Thoreau freaks out.

• 2:22:33Griffin Newman?

  There have to be forces at play.

• 2:22:35David Sims?

  Smashes the window with his golf club.

• 2:22:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:38David Sims?

  And we cut to Mr. Roke, then Michael J. Anderson again, who's just like, shut everything down.

• 2:22:42Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:22:42David Sims?

  And that's that.

• 2:22:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:43David Sims?

  The next scene, which again, this is the one I was like, this isn't in the pilot.

• 2:22:47Griffin Newman?

  You like this scene, okay.

• 2:22:48David Sims?

  Well, I like every scene in Mulholland Drive.

• 2:22:49Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:22:50David Sims?

  No, is Mark Pellegrino talking to another guy who's laughing?

• 2:22:55Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:22:56David Sims?

  And the guy is clearly explaining what went wrong with the hit on, uh, Camilla, you know, Rita, whatever, you know? Uh, and, uh, this is crazy, Droid Riders, and then Mark Pellegrino.

• 2:23:06Griffin Newman?

  This scene is everything I hate about LA, is that LA has people like this in offices like this, acting like this.

• 2:23:11David Sims?

  Well, but then aren't you happy that he gets shot and his hair turns into like a sort of fry, you know, arrow?

• 2:23:17Griffin Newman?

  It is the feel-good moment of the movie for me.

• 2:23:20David Sims?

  And then this insane, uh, slapstick plays out, where the hitman accidentally shot someone else, like in another room, has to kill her. And then there's the cleaning man who's just staring blankly and he has to kill this guy too.

• 2:23:32Griffin Newman?

  Are you saying that you used to assume?

• 2:23:33David Sims?

  I was like, there's no way that's in the pilot.

• 2:23:35Griffin Newman?

  And it is, right?

• 2:23:36David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:36Speaker 03

  It was in the pilot?

• 2:23:37David Sims?

  Yes. It's all in the pilot. So I guess that was gonna be something else too, right? What's going on with this guy?

• 2:23:45Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:23:46David Sims?

  Uh, what do you guys, anything you wanna offer on Mark Pellegrino taking out an entire group of folks?

• 2:23:50Griffin Newman?

  No, I mean, that's what's funny about this movie is just this thing of like, the difference of, I mean, now it's fucking changed a little 'cause TV shows are told to conceptualize themselves as 10-hour movies or whatever, right?

• 2:24:01Speaker 03

  Right, right, yeah.

• 2:24:02Griffin Newman?

  Uh, but it used to be like, this thing is so scattershot, you have no guarantee of how many episodes you get, that when you're designing a pilot, the idea is how to put enough pieces in play that like, there's open expansive terrain of where this could go.

• 2:24:13Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:14Griffin Newman?

  You conceptualize a character like Mark Pellegrino, and maybe there's a fixed endpoint you hope you get to, or maybe not.

• 2:24:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:20Griffin Newman?

  Maybe you're just like, you know what this show needs? A type of guy like this.

• 2:24:23Speaker 03

  I got a-

• 2:24:23Griffin Newman?

  A plot thread that exists in this kind of universe.

• 2:24:26Speaker 03

  I got a real sense of, again, watching the scene for the first time in the theater.

• 2:24:30Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:30Speaker 03

  I got this real sense of parody. I got this real sense of like, because I feel like what was in the water then was this Coen Brothers Tarantino.

• 2:24:39Griffin Newman?

  Sure, absolutely.

• 2:24:40Speaker 03

  Um, Elmore Leonard.

• 2:24:42Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 2:24:42Speaker 03

  Barry Sonnenfeld.

• 2:24:44Griffin Newman?

  Right, this scene feels like it could be from Get Shorty.

• 2:24:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it just feels, and then the parody of it is the continuation of just like, it feels like his commentary, or maybe not commentary, but his experience of watch, of the temperature of Hollywood at that point.

• 2:24:58Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:24:59Speaker 03

  Genre wise.

• 2:25:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, that it's like, we see, is the next scene Thoreau again?

• 2:25:05David Sims?

  No, the next scene after the big hitman thing is dead Betty and Diane, like going through her bag and finding-

• 2:25:12Speaker 03

  And finding all the money, yeah.

• 2:25:13David Sims?

  Money, the key.

• 2:25:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:15David Sims?

  You know, and, uh, I said Betty and Diane, I'm sorry, I'm so bad with the names.

• 2:25:19Griffin Newman?

  Betty and Veronica.

• 2:25:20David Sims?

  No, Rita.

• 2:25:23David Sims?

  And Rita crying and being like, I don't know who I am, like, and the mystery advancing, basically.

• 2:25:30Griffin Newman?

  Can I ask the two of you, as people who've studied this movie far more deeply than I have and seen it far more times than I have, on the Lynch clue list?

• 2:25:38David Sims?

  Oh, sure.

• 2:25:38Griffin Newman?

  Number three is can you hear the title of the film that Adam Kesher is auditioning actresses for?

• 2:25:42Speaker 03

  Sylvia North Story, yeah. And you hear it, you do hear it twice.

• 2:25:46Griffin Newman?

  What is the meaning of that?

• 2:25:49David Sims?

  Explain!

• 2:25:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I'm not gonna do this with other things, but that was the one where I was like, I missed that and I don't understand what the importance of that is.

• 2:25:58David Sims?

  So the Sylvia, I mean-

• 2:25:59Griffin Newman?

  Say it again, the title?

• 2:26:01David Sims?

  The Sylvia North Story.

• 2:26:02Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 2:26:04David Sims?

  So the movie that he's directing.

• 2:26:06Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:26:07David Sims?

  Uh, Kesher, uh, right, that's his name, you know, the Justin Theroux character. Seems to be this kind of like, American graffiti, 50s throwbacky thing, right?

• 2:26:16Griffin Newman?

  But also some biopic-y.

• 2:26:19David Sims?

  Possibly, I mean, the name is absurd, right?

• 2:26:21Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:26:22David Sims?

  Like, the Sylvia North Story.

• 2:26:23Speaker 04

  She's some kind of singer.

• 2:26:25David Sims?

  Right, the audition scene is like a singer.

• 2:26:27Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:29David Sims?

  I'm not, what I'm never really clear at- On.

• 2:26:33Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:34David Sims?

  Is what the audition Betty does is, because it's not for the Sylvia North story.

• 2:26:39Griffin Newman?

  No, that's for the project that's not going.

• 2:26:41David Sims?

  Right. It's this like, but like.

• 2:26:43Speaker 03

  But, but later in the movie, when it does get mentioned again.

• 2:26:46Griffin Newman?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:47Speaker 03

  Um.

• 2:26:47Griffin Newman?

  When does it get mentioned again?

• 2:26:49Speaker 03

  It gets mentioned again when she's at, she's at the, the house party.

• 2:26:52David Sims?

  In the, uh, other.

• 2:26:54Speaker 03

  She, they ask how, how, um, Camilla and Diane met.

• 2:26:57David Sims?

  She says, I was up for that.

• 2:26:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:59David Sims?

  And I had a smaller role.

• 2:27:00Speaker 03

  And then she, doesn't she say the?

• 2:27:02David Sims?

  And they're like, Camilla was great in that.

• 2:27:03Speaker 03

  Yes. And doesn't she say, she, she said, the director didn't like me and he said, but he says Bob Booker or Bob Booker, or whatever it is.

• 2:27:12David Sims?

  Uh huh.

• 2:27:12Speaker 03

  And so that's the director at the audition.

• 2:27:15David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:27:16Griffin Newman?

  The project has also like transmutated.

• 2:27:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:19Griffin Newman?

  What the project, the brass ring project, the star making project is.

• 2:27:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:23Griffin Newman?

  Has changed at the same time that the identities have changed, you're saying, basically.

• 2:27:26Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah. So.

• 2:27:27Griffin Newman?

  The project that's never getting made has become the project.

• 2:27:29Speaker 03

  The project that got made and then made someone a star.

• 2:27:31Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:27:32Speaker 03

  So it, to me, it's not necessarily like a, I don't know. Again, I don't, I want to ascribe meaning to the movie, but in walking through that, it does feel like, um, and because we see the cowboy again in that scene.

• 2:27:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:43Speaker 03

  Um, at the dinner party.

• 2:27:44David Sims?

  Same time.

• 2:27:45Speaker 03

  It does feel like the, the, the random fate of Hollywood.

• 2:27:50David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:27:50Speaker 03

  Meaning the, the, the line between success and failure is so thin and it's so ephemeral.

• 2:27:57Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:27:57Speaker 03

  And that's why I keep coming back to this idea about the movie that it's not.

• 2:28:01Griffin Newman?

  This is, I agree.

• 2:28:02Speaker 03

  It's not good or bad or better.

• 2:28:04Griffin Newman?

  It's not real or fantasy. It's that these two things are so close to each other.

• 2:28:08Speaker 03

  And who knows why they.

• 2:28:09Griffin Newman?

  Indistinguishable and yet.

• 2:28:10Speaker 03

  And yet.

• 2:28:11Griffin Newman?

  They feel wildly apart.

• 2:28:13Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:28:13Griffin Newman?

  Right. And that's the whole experience of trying to live in a city like this that is run entirely on everyone's ambition or fear, right?

• 2:28:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:28:21Griffin Newman?

  That it's everyone who doesn't have it, trying to figure out how to get to the other side. And everyone who's on the other side being terrified of it going away somehow.

• 2:28:28David Sims?

  You're also meta texturally looking, you know, where you're, you're watching a movie that David Lynch initially made for a television network.

• 2:28:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:36David Sims?

  Right? And then when we exit the TV network version of it.

• 2:28:40Griffin Newman?

  It has transmutated into.

• 2:28:41David Sims?

  Made with European money. Right. It's like, so it's like, so I'm kind of with you on like, is that reality? No, it's an entirely different way of storytelling.

• 2:28:49Griffin Newman?

  This is what's interesting too, is like when we're talking about. That's weird. Why would he put the Mark Pellegrino version in the TV show?

• 2:28:56David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:28:56Griffin Newman?

  You're watching and trying to go like, so what would he have done for that character over X number of episodes or seasons?

• 2:29:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29:02Griffin Newman?

  Versus him them going, well, now this character is a closed loop. Everything I ever want to say about this character happens within this.

• 2:29:08David Sims?

  No, no, there's more Mark Pellegrino in the movie, like.

• 2:29:11Griffin Newman?

  No, no, that's what I'm saying, though.

• 2:29:12David Sims?

  Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. But like, right now, this is what I have to work with.

• 2:29:15Griffin Newman?

  Right. Now, everything I want to say has to be in this movie.

• 2:29:19David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:29:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29:21Griffin Newman?

  And it's the same with every character in this film.

• 2:29:23David Sims?

  But obviously, you can sort of, you know, if you want to be more basic about it, I guess you can, right? You can sort of think of it as like, this is her rerunning something that didn't work out for her, you know? As, no, what I did was I crushed that fucking audition.

• 2:29:37Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:29:38David Sims?

  I was gonna be taken to him.

• 2:29:39Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:40David Sims?

  We meet, our eyes lock, like, this is my moment. Then it's like, but, Adam, you have to watch Melissa George is about to do our audition, and you have to say this is the girl.

• 2:29:49Speaker 03

  Well, I also think that there's, there's also this feeling of like, when you compare those two scenes, that there's this, she is triumphant in this scene.

• 2:30:00Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:30:01Speaker 03

  But the film is not getting made.

• 2:30:02David Sims?

  The, the, the audition scene.

• 2:30:04Speaker 03

  In the other version, she fails miserably, and the director doesn't like her.

• 2:30:07Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:30:07Speaker 03

  And the movie is a success.

• 2:30:09Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:30:09Speaker 03

  You know, so there's this feel, again, who, this is why I, I hesitate to say one's reality and one's not.

• 2:30:16Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:30:16Speaker 03

  Because those two things are outside of her control. We know she's a great actress because we saw it.

• 2:30:22Griffin Newman?

  And, and the feeling of that audition room and the weird reality that's created within it, that she, like, accepts and enters into and like wins the game. And then you walk out the doors and the behavior of the three other women who should be her allies in this industry, you hope.

• 2:30:37David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:37Griffin Newman?

  Aren't there three others?

• 2:30:38David Sims?

  Two. But they're like, ugh.

• 2:30:40Speaker 03

  Doesn't that woman come in at the end though?

• 2:30:41David Sims?

  Disaster. Uh, maybe someone else shows up at the end.

• 2:30:43Speaker 03

  Well, they get introduced, they're three.

• 2:30:45David Sims?

  The old casting agent lady is basically like, that poor guy, he's never gonna make that piece of shit, but you were great.

• 2:30:50Griffin Newman?

  That her first line, walk out the door, it's like, their performance has changed, their energy's changed. The second they leave that room, what a disaster.

• 2:30:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:58Griffin Newman?

  You're feeling the way Naomi walks.

• 2:30:59David Sims?

  You're like, what do you mean?

• 2:31:00Griffin Newman?

  What do you mean, why are you saying that to me? They're like, no, no, no, you were incredible. None of that means anything. Right. That was nothing.

• 2:31:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:07Griffin Newman?

  That's a bunch of old folkies. And now it'll work out in some other way.

• 2:31:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:10Griffin Newman?

  And I'll bring you across the street.

• 2:31:11Speaker 03

  And again, that's the experience of being in Hollywood, which is like, you can do the best that any, I mean, that scene is transformative. When I watched that in the theater, I was like, you know, I've been watching, you know, you're kind of experiencing it, experiencing it, experiencing it. When she does that audition, you're like, who the fuck is this woman?

• 2:31:29Griffin Newman?

  I mean, it was a star is born.

• 2:31:30Speaker 03

  Who the fuck are you?

• 2:31:32Griffin Newman?

  It is that for Naomi Watts as well.

• 2:31:34Speaker 03

  And this is the thing in terms of like casting Anne Miller, casting Patrick, it's like, I am going to, instead of going with the, he could have cast, I mean, I guess because of the TV of it all, he probably couldn't cast a movie star.

• 2:31:45Griffin Newman?

  But even still, he could have cast someone who was more well-known in TV, but not in leading roles or whatever the fuck.

• 2:31:51Speaker 03

  Like not unlike Kyle MacLachlan, he could have convinced an actress that he'd worked with before to say like, this is gonna be something special, et cetera, et cetera.

• 2:31:58Griffin Newman?

  If not a star, he could have found a more familiar face versus someone who really was new to anyone who hadn't watched Tank Girl, a futures Ben's Choice episode.

• 2:32:07Speaker 03

  Oh, God. So, yeah, so there's the, so he is, what's odd is that he over and over again relies on your public consciousness of something that you probably don't know about.

• 2:32:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:18Speaker 03

  But he, it's weird, he sort of trusts the fact that you experienced a, a cultural osmosis.

• 2:32:25Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:32:27Speaker 03

  Again, subconsciously possibly, so that as you're watching Naomi Watts go through the experience that she has actually gone through in her life and knows that this is the audition that she must nail.

• 2:32:38Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:32:39Speaker 03

  And to watch her, I, I have never been so thrilled by a performance.

• 2:32:44Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:45Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I've enjoyed performances, I've admired performances, but I was, I found it thrilling.

• 2:32:51Griffin Newman?

  Well, you're watching someone make the argument for their worthiness.

• 2:32:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:32:56Griffin Newman?

  In real time.

• 2:32:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:32:58Griffin Newman?

  And the character's doing that and the actress playing the scene is doing that.

• 2:33:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:33:02Griffin Newman?

  Where they're like, I need to be undeniable in this moment.

• 2:33:05Speaker 03

  And the footnote.

• 2:33:06Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:06Speaker 03

  Is the movie's not getting made.

• 2:33:08Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:33:09Speaker 03

  The footnote, again, the punctuation on the scene is. None of that matters.

• 2:33:14Griffin Newman?

  So quickly, they say at the same time, of course, none of that mattered, but also it mattered because you impressed us.

• 2:33:19Speaker 03

  Because you impressed us and now we're going to.

• 2:33:20Griffin Newman?

  Then they go to the other room and the other room is inaccessible to her for reasons, forces that are outside of her control of perception.

• 2:33:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:33:27Griffin Newman?

  She looks in the eyes of this other woman and feels some sense of transference and it's like, I don't get why it's her and not me.

• 2:33:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:33:34Griffin Newman?

  But there's something going on here that's unknowable.

• 2:33:36Speaker 03

  And there is no reason.

• 2:33:38Griffin Newman?

  Correct.

• 2:33:38Speaker 03

  You know, there's.

• 2:33:39Griffin Newman?

  It's meaningless. They don't explain to fucking Justin Theroux. They just go, this is what it has to be.

• 2:33:43Speaker 03

  That's why I think that the arm, whatever, I don't know the actor, the, um.

• 2:33:48David Sims?

  Michael J. Anderson.

• 2:33:48Speaker 03

  The man from another, yeah.

• 2:33:49David Sims?

  The arm. He is canonically the arm.

• 2:33:52Speaker 03

  The arm.

• 2:33:52David Sims?

  You're right.

• 2:33:53Speaker 03

  He is the arm. Well, he's kind of the arm here, right? Like, there's just this image, not unlike the cowboy and the gooblin'. There are just these images of, of chaos. Like, there is no way that no, that you can control what is going to happen to you in life, but specifically in this particular industry.

• 2:34:12Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely.

• 2:34:13Speaker 03

  You know, like, there's no, um, and, and, you know, not, I know we're kind of skipping over it, but to, to bring it back to the, um, to the Theroux cuck scene.

• 2:34:21David Sims?

  I'm bringing this back. Don't worry.

• 2:34:22Speaker 03

  Well, the cuck scene feels.

• 2:34:23David Sims?

  I have much more to say about the audition, but the cuck scene is next, which is, after this shitty day he has, he arrives home, his wife is fucked.

• 2:34:29Griffin Newman?

  Breaky cook.

• 2:34:30David Sims?

  The pool man, Billy Ray Cyrus, and he, in a very Freudian act,

• 2:34:35Griffin Newman?

  Hmm.

• 2:34:35David Sims?

  Uh, despoils his wife's jewelry box with paint.

• 2:34:39Griffin Newman?

  Yep.

• 2:34:39Speaker 03

  In a very Freudian?

• 2:34:41David Sims?

  Yeah. Graham Fuller said that in his review of Never Forgotten.

• 2:34:45Griffin Newman?

  Interesting.

• 2:34:45David Sims?

  If you think of a jewelry box as sort of a vaginal, secret, metaphorical, he's like,

• 2:34:49Griffin Newman?

  Dumping paint on her?

• 2:34:51David Sims?

  Dump paint all over it.

• 2:34:52Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so funny.

• 2:34:53David Sims?

  Like this destructive, odd, sexual response to this, like, sexual.

• 2:34:57Speaker 03

  Jewelry box. I felt it to be just another example of his, of his, um, powerlessness.

• 2:35:04David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:35:05Speaker 03

  And his, um, again, the whims of the fate and his, um, impotence.

• 2:35:09David Sims?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 2:35:10Speaker 03

  Impotence in every single way.

• 2:35:11David Sims?

  It's this very impotent act.

• 2:35:12Speaker 03

  He can't choose the girl, so.

• 2:35:14David Sims?

  He can't fight this man.

• 2:35:15Speaker 03

  He can't, he can't fight this man. He can't, he, he has to, he can't fight the mob. He, his acting out.

• 2:35:21Griffin Newman?

  He can't fight her. He can fight the sort of theatrics around her of like, this is your like play acting costume.

• 2:35:25Speaker 03

  To me, it's a, it's a mirror, exactly. It's a mirror of the golf club into the windshield, the way he runs away.

• 2:35:31David Sims?

  Another impotent act of like, yeah, I'll show you.

• 2:35:34Griffin Newman?

  These are objects of status.

• 2:35:35Speaker 03

  The objects of status that I'm going to destroy.

• 2:35:38Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:35:38Speaker 03

  And so it feels like this, this, uh, again, this kind of like odd acting out in a way that is never actually going to affect the, the, the, the actions that have already transpired. That's what I thought you were gonna say about Freudian. Like, I thought you meant like, the, yeah, that's what I thought.

• 2:35:55Griffin Newman?

  Objects of status that he's gonna destroy, but in both cases, he is basically causing surface damage.

• 2:36:00Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:36:00Griffin Newman?

  The windshield's been busted. You could drive the car. The car hasn't been destroyed.

• 2:36:03David Sims?

  Probably shouldn't drive the car.

• 2:36:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:36:07Griffin Newman?

  You're Ben and you may have a strong take on how it could fit into a fashion line. But in both cases, he's affecting the most surface level of the thing in a way.

• 2:36:16David Sims?

  A hundred percent. It's, I, I also think Billy Ray Cyrus is very funny that his mode is basically like, hey, man, just leave and don't forget about it. You know, don't worry about it. And then when he starts acting up. And he like shoves the, the woman Billy Ray goes into kind of like, alright buddy mode. And then just finally like pulls him out. I just think that's funny. I think he's so funny. It's a very funny performance from Billy Ray Cyrus.

• 2:36:39Griffin Newman?

  One of our finest actors.

• 2:36:40Speaker 03

  And the last thing I'll say about the impotence of it all is that then when he goes through the rest of, or not the rest of the movie, but like for the next few scenes that he's in, he's covered in pink.

• 2:36:49David Sims?

  He is covered in-

• 2:36:49Speaker 03

  He's not covered in blood.

• 2:36:51David Sims?

  His cool guy Hollywood all black outfit is now this kind of weird comical like paint stained thing.

• 2:36:57Speaker 03

  Girlie pink. Yeah.

• 2:36:58David Sims?

  Absolutely. I don't think David Lynch selected these things, you know, offhand.

• 2:37:05Speaker 03

  But I think again-

• 2:37:06Griffin Newman?

  Just fucking throwing shit at the wall.

• 2:37:08Speaker 03

  Again, I don't think he makes these like intentional-

• 2:37:11David Sims?

  Again, it's not like I've left you a clue. You better figure out the clue. There's only one answer to the clue. No, of course not.

• 2:37:16Griffin Newman?

  He's sort of just like listening to the muse and just being like, for some reason, this is calling out to me and I'm just gonna do it without explaining it.

• 2:37:23Speaker 03

  And that's what I felt watching it for the first time. I just felt like this guy's, this guy is-

• 2:37:27Griffin Newman?

  He's tapped into something.

• 2:37:28Speaker 03

  He's just, and, and that Justin Theroux is just sort of a, not that he's not talented, but that he's so, he's so hobbled that it, to me, I was like, watching it and I was like, God, this guy's super hot. And then as it kept going, I was like, God, this guy's pathetic.

• 2:37:43David Sims?

  He seems pathetic and it's like, right. He think-

• 2:37:45Griffin Newman?

  And yet my mom remained undeterred.

• 2:37:47David Sims?

  As a director, you're like, I'm now in control, right? Like, that's the whole point of being a director.

• 2:37:53Griffin Newman?

  You make one concession and it's like, did I just give up the whole fucking thing?

• 2:37:57Speaker 04

  He feels really Gen X.

• 2:37:59David Sims?

  You're not wrong. He's not wrong. Gen X of hell.

• 2:38:02Speaker 03

  That's the reference. That's what I was trying to figure out. There's something about it that was like.

• 2:38:06David Sims?

  That attitude.

• 2:38:07Griffin Newman?

  Basically, right as that is dying, as we're on like, you know, this is 2009, it comes out in 2001, you're on two sides of Y2K.

• 2:38:15Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:38:15Griffin Newman?

  And it's like, this is the guy who used to be tip of the spear coolest.

• 2:38:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:38:20Griffin Newman?

  Youngest, freshest.

• 2:38:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:38:21Griffin Newman?

  And this guy's about to be phased out by whatever's coming.

• 2:38:24David Sims?

  It's not just phased out. It's more like, hey, I get to make a big movie. I can do what I want, right? No, you get to do what we tell you to do. Uh, fuck you. I'm gonna do what I want. Okay, well now you have no money.

• 2:38:34Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:38:34David Sims?

  Now your life is falling apart. Now you have to go to beg Cookie, God bless him, seems like a nice guy, big white mustache.

• 2:38:41Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:38:41David Sims?

  For, you know, a room for the night.

• 2:38:43Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:44David Sims?

  This, you know, in between the cucking scene and the scene I'm about to talk about, we have more of Diane and Rita, Betty and Rita, Jesus Christ. You know, they call what they think might be her phone number. Like she figures out her name. Maybe my name's Diane, because she sees it on a waitress's name tag. Then.

• 2:39:00Speaker 03

  These outfits are just psychotic. Like, what are these girls wearing? They just look cra- it's literally like they went to Party City.

• 2:39:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:09Speaker 03

  Uh, or Claire's.

• 2:39:10David Sims?

  They don't have a lot of money.

• 2:39:11Speaker 03

  And they just fucking threw on. Yeah, and they're hiding it. Yeah, they hide them, which, you know.

• 2:39:17Griffin Newman?

  They look like fake clothes in a way I can't describe any better.

• 2:39:20Speaker 03

  That's correct.

• 2:39:20Griffin Newman?

  But they don't look like costumes.

• 2:39:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:39:22Griffin Newman?

  They look like fake clothes.

• 2:39:25Speaker 03

  What are they made of?

• 2:39:26Griffin Newman?

  But do you know what I'm saying?

• 2:39:27Speaker 03

  They're not even made of fabric.

• 2:39:29Griffin Newman?

  There is, it's beyond fast fashion. It's like rapid, instant fashion.

• 2:39:33David Sims?

  There is a brief and comic scene in which the mob dispatches, a person I can only describe as a golem, who is like 40 feet tall and wide.

• 2:39:41Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 2:39:41David Sims?

  To the same house that, and he's just like, what's the guy's name? Adam Kasher, right?

• 2:39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:39:47David Sims?

  Adam Kasher, and both, uh, the, the wife and Billy Ray Cyrus like tried to charge this guy.

• 2:39:53Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:39:53David Sims?

  And he just like shrugs them off. There's that shot where he like turns his hand into a fist, where he's like, I have to go fist mode to like punch one of them.

• 2:39:59Speaker 03

  No, she punches, he punches her in the face.

• 2:40:02David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:40:02Speaker 03

  Like when she's on top of him. And I, that made such an impression on me the first time I watched it too. I was like, it was.

• 2:40:08David Sims?

  But he like doesn't even acknowledge, he's still just going, Adam Kasher? And like, it's like, this is what they have. They have these like robot automatons that are strong.

• 2:40:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:40:16David Sims?

  Yes, that's all.

• 2:40:17Griffin Newman?

  They, they wrote his name on a piece of paper and fed it into his mouth.

• 2:40:20David Sims?

  Right, exactly.

• 2:40:21Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:22David Sims?

  But when you saw it, did this really? Disturb you, this scene?

• 2:40:25Speaker 03

  Well, it disturbed me because of how funny it was.

• 2:40:28David Sims?

  Like, the audience is laughing too, I feel like, at a lot of these scenes.

• 2:40:32Griffin Newman?

  I think it is truly the X factor with Lynch's career, where you're like, how can a guy make things that are this abstract and against the norms

• 2:40:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:40:41Griffin Newman?

  of Hollywood storytelling?

• 2:40:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:40:43Griffin Newman?

  That more often than not have hit, to some degree, and connected with the public, even if they can't quite make sense of the story. And the answer is that he is inexplicably funny.

• 2:40:52Speaker 03

  He really is. Yeah.

• 2:40:53Griffin Newman?

  If people are laughing, they're a lot more willing to tolerate some shit they don't understand because they're being locked into a physiological response.

• 2:41:01David Sims?

  I also just remember, the audience at this point, were pretty freaked out. We've already met the Winkies guy. This is a weird tense movie.

• 2:41:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:08David Sims?

  So these scenes, like the Billy Ray Cyrus scene, even the mob yelling scene, like, you're kind of like, this is funny, right? Like, this is weird and funny. I'm trying to calm down.

• 2:41:19Griffin Newman?

  Disarming you with comedy.

• 2:41:20David Sims?

  Right. Like, okay, okay, okay.

• 2:41:22Griffin Newman?

  Kevin Smith has talked about-

• 2:41:24Speaker 03

  Past and future?

• 2:41:25Griffin Newman?

  Yep. When, when Clerks, like, blew up at Sundance, and here's a movie that was made for no money-

• 2:41:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:41:31Griffin Newman?

  by non-professionals with non-professional cast, you know, with, like, threadbare production values and whatever. And everyone flips out over it. And he's like, the answer is, like, the thing I was able to convey in that movie was something funny. The audience was laughing.

• 2:41:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:41:47Griffin Newman?

  And Hollywood cannot, like, buy that on purpose. You know, you need to find someone who has the instincts. And if, like, the audience is laughing, studios are kind of like, I guess it works.

• 2:41:56Speaker 03

  That's, I, I, I, I was, um, I was at a film festival and John, um, John Waters was interviewing Roger Corman.

• 2:42:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:04Speaker 03

  And he said, what, what do you think, you know, what, what genre, you know, would you not, not do, or the hardest genre? And he immediately was like, comedy.

• 2:42:13Griffin Newman?

  It is-

• 2:42:13Speaker 03

  Because you know immediately whether it's working or not.

• 2:42:15Griffin Newman?

  It's less subjective.

• 2:42:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42:17Griffin Newman?

  If you're like, an exec, who's watching a screening of a fucking thing-

• 2:42:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42:22Griffin Newman?

  You're like, well, either people are laughing, or they're not.

• 2:42:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42:25Griffin Newman?

  I can't freak with that.

• 2:42:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42:27Griffin Newman?

  And it's the same kind of thing where if like, if Lynch can nail five things in a movie that are inexplicably funny.

• 2:42:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42:33Griffin Newman?

  People are like, I guess there are like handles for people.

• 2:42:36Speaker 03

  Right, right, right, right. There was something too that like, when I watched this the first time that this, you're absolutely right, the scene kind of got me back in.

• 2:42:44David Sims?

  You're just so confused and tense.

• 2:42:47Speaker 03

  Well, the mystery.

• 2:42:48David Sims?

  A guy getting cheated on by Billy Ray, you're like.

• 2:42:51Speaker 03

  Well, it's more active, it's more active than the A story. You know, the A story has now sort of morphed into.

• 2:42:57Griffin Newman?

  So elusive.

• 2:42:58Speaker 03

  And it's kind of like you've seen it before. It's like, they're starting to, the detective aspect of it is starting to fall, to hit the familiar beats.

• 2:43:08David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:43:08Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:43:08Speaker 03

  You know, you're not.

• 2:43:09Griffin Newman?

  Is this pastiche?

• 2:43:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, you don't, and these scenes are actually the most energetic, they're the scenes, I mean, again, the, the Mark Pellegrino scene as well, they just start to pop. They start to give you these, these shots of comedy. And like I said, I think it kind of.

• 2:43:23Griffin Newman?

  Twin Peaks back and forth, it's the dance of like, well, just the murder mystery of the girl isn't the thing, you have to go between that and a log lady or whatever, you know?

• 2:43:30David Sims?

  So popra of it, like Twin Peaks is.

• 2:43:32Griffin Newman?

  But it's moving between these spaces.

• 2:43:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:43:36David Sims?

  The, yes, because the, the Betty and Rita is like, Betty, you know, being, playing Nancy Drew and being like, well, maybe it's this, you know? And then the occasional scene of like, Lee Grant shows up at their door and is like, someone is in trouble. And you're again, then as an audience member, you're back to like.

• 2:43:53Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 2:43:54David Sims?

  Oh God, like something weird's about to happen.

• 2:43:56Griffin Newman?

  And Lee Grant famously, like one of the most blacklisted actresses.

• 2:43:59David Sims?

  Completely written off by Hollywood.

• 2:44:01Griffin Newman?

  Has 20 years where she can't fucking work.

• 2:44:04Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:44:04Griffin Newman?

  Like, a, a young up and comer gets an Oscar nomination, then is like benched.

• 2:44:08David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:44:09Griffin Newman?

  And then comes back and like wins basically the revenge Oscar and has like an incredible career.

• 2:44:14Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:44:14Griffin Newman?

  Becomes a filmmaker lasting decades, but like someone who comes in with that sort of baked in power of like.

• 2:44:19David Sims?

  At this point, obviously, she's quite old.

• 2:44:21Griffin Newman?

  Both a good.

• 2:44:22David Sims?

  Although she's still alive.

• 2:44:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. But this is someone who represents both like the best and worst outcome.

• 2:44:27Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:44:27Griffin Newman?

  For them disposing of you.

• 2:44:29David Sims?

  Well, that's the, because like Coco shows up and is like, oh, don't worry about her, she's just an old kook, like don't, but like, right, it's. Like if Coco is this more put together, like I'm an old Hollywood broad and like here I am now running this little, you know.

• 2:44:41Speaker 03

  And it's the point from A to Z for her.

• 2:44:43David Sims?

  Right. And then you have this like weird ghost lady who's like, huh, you know, like you're like.

• 2:44:48Speaker 03

  She's sort of, again, the in-between place, like being good, but the movie gets canceled, um, being bad and the movie does well. Lee Grant represents essentially, or again, not represents, I don't want to say that, but the, the, the scene, it's also, it's a two-shot. There's no coverage. It's just, you have to experience both these women at the same time.

• 2:45:07Griffin Newman?

  Let's put it this way. Lee Grant, my opinion, one of the greatest screen actors of all time.

• 2:45:10Speaker 03

  Agreed. Yeah.

• 2:45:11Griffin Newman?

  Incredible. Right?

• 2:45:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:12Griffin Newman?

  Made it.

• 2:45:13Speaker 03

  Made it. Yeah.

• 2:45:14Griffin Newman?

  Was in Hollywood, was getting Oscar noms, was validated.

• 2:45:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:17Griffin Newman?

  And then there's 15 years of them basically being like, that's a crazy lady. Don't pay attention to her.

• 2:45:21David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:45:22Speaker 03

  Get out of here.

• 2:45:22Griffin Newman?

  We treat her like a ghost.

• 2:45:23Speaker 03

  We don't care.

• 2:45:24Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:45:25David Sims?

  The 50s and 60s.

• 2:45:26Speaker 03

  You are dead.

• 2:45:26David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:45:27Griffin Newman?

  She's on the blacklist. None of those credits she had before matter.

• 2:45:32Griffin Newman?

  Right?

• 2:45:32Speaker 03

  You are erased.

• 2:45:33David Sims?

  I understand what you're saying. Absolutely. That's the point. That's the point of her being used.

• 2:45:36Griffin Newman?

  Miracle, and she's talked about it so much, it didn't drive her insane.

• 2:45:40Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:45:40Griffin Newman?

  And she thankfully had this like incredible second act.

• 2:45:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:44Griffin Newman?

  But that's how she was treated was like Coco being like, don't fucking.

• 2:45:48Speaker 03

  Don't worry about her.

• 2:45:49Griffin Newman?

  That's not a thing.

• 2:45:49Speaker 03

  That's not a thing.

• 2:45:50Griffin Newman?

  That's not a thing.

• 2:45:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:52David Sims?

  After this, um, Justin Throes' character goes to meet a guy called the cowboy up in a ranch. Uh, and you know, like, and I do feel like that's also Lynch's like. In Hollywood, right? There's a magic road at the top of the hill that like winds like a snake.

• 2:46:10Speaker 03

  True.

• 2:46:10David Sims?

  There are diners in the middle of downtown that feel like they're from, you know, the small town. There's a fucking cowboy ranch. Like you just drive 10 miles and suddenly you're in the desert.

• 2:46:22Speaker 03

  And it is.

• 2:46:23David Sims?

  And there's a cowboy ranch.

• 2:46:24Speaker 03

  But if you go to the top of, um, I think it's like Benedict Canyon, but.

• 2:46:29David Sims?

  You could say anything and I would know.

• 2:46:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. Runyon Canyon or something like that. There is a corral up there.

• 2:46:34David Sims?

  Of course. That's what I'm saying. Like, cause it's, it's old Hollywood. Like, let's go shoot the western shit. Like.

• 2:46:38Griffin Newman?

  Is this a real ranch or a movie ranch? Well, it was a movie ranch, but now they don't really film stuff here anymore. So it's kind of a real ranch.

• 2:46:45Speaker 03

  Again, I think we can talk about what the cow, I would love to know what you guys think the cowboy sort of represents, quote unquote. But when, again, when I was, my experience of watching this, and I was more rewatching it for this. That I did wonder, again, with the stilted language, the stilted performance, the strange language, the fact that he's wearing this, literally the clothes of the first Western star.

• 2:47:09Griffin Newman?

  Right, yeah.

• 2:47:10Speaker 03

  In, in, in silent film. It feels the beginning of Hollywood to me.

• 2:47:16Griffin Newman?

  Yes. The most elemental kind of like brute force.

• 2:47:20Speaker 03

  You know, icon, and then this stilted language that feels like a silent movie star moving into the talkies. That's sort of, here's where, to the obnoxious, impotent.

• 2:47:33Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:47:34Speaker 03

  Gen X, admittedly hot.

• 2:47:38Speaker 03

  You know, director.

• 2:47:39Griffin Newman?

  There's another part of it in my reading, which is,

• 2:47:44Griffin Newman?

  here is this guy, he's had like fucking actual, like, sort of like mafia, tough guy criminals, weirdos. Be like, this is fucking happening, you're casting her. And Justin Theroux is still trying to fight against it impotently. He's trying to pour paint in their jewelry box.

• 2:47:59Speaker 03

  That's right, yeah.

• 2:48:00Griffin Newman?

  Even though he knows they control the purse strings, right? And guys like this are in this dance of like, do I stick to my guns and not get the movie made? Or is there a way I can meet them halfway and make my dune and it works, right?

• 2:48:15Speaker 03

  And it just.

• 2:48:15Griffin Newman?

  And those people think of themselves as fucking cowboys.

• 2:48:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48:18Griffin Newman?

  You're taking a last stand, you're not listening to the notes, or you choose the one battle. I'll, I'll give them this, but I can, if I win everything else, then it's still my movie, right? Which is basically what the cowboy is saying to him. This archetype of not just movie history, but of the kind of renegade, how do you meet in the middle between business and commerce? Or rather, business and art, commerce and art, right? And what he's saying to him in a much more even keeled tone than Hade or anyone is, if you cast the girl, you can do anything else you want.

• 2:48:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48:49David Sims?

  But, I mean, there's just, like, it's classic Lynch, in that there's lots of things you can project onto it, but I also feel like Lynch is like, I feel like he's gonna meet a cowboy. I have this idea that cowboy.

• 2:49:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:49:00David Sims?

  And the cowboy will tell him essentially, your attitude governs your life. Sometimes there's a buggy, you know, we'll speak in these kinds of, almost like, western versions of like, eastern aphorisms. It's basically like, you need to give yourself over.

• 2:49:14Griffin Newman?

  The western movies are all these cowboy poets who are like, I'm talking about. The moral reason of, I stroll into a town and it's like, what is the empirical right that I have to do and I have to protect?

• 2:49:24David Sims?

  But like, he's also, he's this, right, this definition of old masculinity, like, you know, the people pulling the levers of Hollywood, fine. But it's also like, it's very easy to read this movie as, you know, she, Diane, whoever is dreaming the movie, much of the movie has descended into maybe some sort of sex work. We see her sleeping in a bed, the cowboy comes in and says it's time to wake up. He's sort of pimp coded at that moment, like, no other, there's stuff like that.

• 2:49:53Griffin Newman?

  The blurry line between literal sex work and the sort of like, exchange of sex for power.

• 2:49:57David Sims?

  Right, you're kind of like a little fucking actress. You're gonna be someone's date, exactly.

• 2:50:02Griffin Newman?

  And do you have agency, are you choosing to do this, or are you manipulated into a broken system that actually has deprived you of agency by even putting you in a position where that's the choice?

• 2:50:10Speaker 03

  And that's because, and then it's followed very closely to what you guys are saying, like, almost, you know, like, a scene or two later is the audition.

• 2:50:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:19David Sims?

  Which I want to talk about, but the cowboy says, you'll see me once if you do good, you'll see me twice if you do bad. We see him saying, it's time to wake up, we see him once. We see him again, very briefly, in the background of the party scene, much, much later in the movie.

• 2:50:33Speaker 03

  After Melissa George has exited?

• 2:50:35David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:50:35Speaker 03

  He does a wipe.

• 2:50:36David Sims?

  He just walks by. He is completely incongruous in that scene, because everyone else is dressed for a party and he is dressed like a cowboy. And that is like, one of those things where you're like, this is the thing Hollywood doesn't like to think about, that there are like, guys like that, right? You know, like, he clashes so much with the nice aesthetics of that party. There's that fucking cowboy in the background, it's like, yeah, well, you know, half the girls here, like.

• 2:51:02Griffin Newman?

  And I think in Los Angeles, you see people like that where you're like, how do you exist? What has your fucking life been for the last 40 years?

• 2:51:09David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:51:09Griffin Newman?

  You're like this all the time?

• 2:51:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:51:14David Sims?

  The cowboy is also, I will say, just, it is a very funny scene. Like, the way he's talking is funny, the whole bizarreness of Thoreau being like, "The fu-" "What are you talking about?" The cowboy's talking to him like, just with no expression, no eyebrows. It's funny.

• 2:51:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, no eyebrows, yeah.

• 2:51:31David Sims?

  It's creepy and funny and cool, and it's why people like David Lynch.

• 2:51:35Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, cuz he's fun.

• 2:51:36David Sims?

  Um, the next scene is, um, uh, the rehearsal of the audition, which is so crucial to the audition.

• 2:51:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:51:42David Sims?

  Is how shitty Betty is in the rehearsal.

• 2:51:44Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:51:45David Sims?

  And that moment, the best moment, where she, she's doing the lines, she's sort of selling them, like, I would sell them or whatever.

• 2:51:51Griffin Newman?

  And by the way-

• 2:51:51David Sims?

  And then she goes, "And then I like cry, blah, blah, blah, and I say this one last thing."

• 2:51:56Griffin Newman?

  Here's the other thing.

• 2:51:56David Sims?

  And that's where her performance really comes alive.

• 2:51:58Griffin Newman?

  She's doing a shitty superficial performance, and yet, you can see the difference of, she is fundamentally an actor-

• 2:52:04David Sims?

  Yes.

• 2:52:05Griffin Newman?

  In a way that the Laura Heron character is not.

• 2:52:08David Sims?

  Right, she's just reading them blankly.

• 2:52:10Griffin Newman?

  Helping her read. And you're like, well, undeniably, she has more juice-

• 2:52:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:52:13Griffin Newman?

  Than someone who has no acting ability.

• 2:52:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:52:15Griffin Newman?

  But yet, you are not prepared for what she's about to do in the actual audition.

• 2:52:19Speaker 03

  No, you're not prepared at all, and you're, you're absolutely right, that it's crucial for us to know the scene before the scene happens.

• 2:52:25David Sims?

  Correct.

• 2:52:26Speaker 03

  It's, it's definitely the, the setup for the payoff.

• 2:52:28Griffin Newman?

  How it's, quote unquote, supposed to go.

• 2:52:30David Sims?

  If you don't have the first part, the second part doesn't hit nearly as much.

• 2:52:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's the thing that I think is so interesting, is that, again, with the-

• 2:52:36David Sims?

  You're right that there are three ladies sitting there. I don't know where the third lady ends up.

• 2:52:39Griffin Newman?

  Thank you, David.

• 2:52:40David Sims?

  But I also think- When they're walking, there's only two, I don't know.

• 2:52:42Griffin Newman?

  This is Blackbird Gate all over again.

• 2:52:44Speaker 03

  At the last part of the scene, like, when everybody's leaving, I feel like one more lady comes in, and you're like, "Who the fuck was that?"

• 2:52:50David Sims?

  The audition.

• 2:52:50Speaker 03

  So, the audition, again, I think that when he puts these things in, in, he says, "Here's the bad audition, and here's the good audition."

• 2:52:59Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm, sure.

• 2:52:59Speaker 03

  What I think is interesting is that with, with Lynch's work, everybody sort of leans into the, the positive side of the dream.

• 2:53:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:08Speaker 03

  And they say, um, or, you know, there, there's the negative side, and then there's the positive side.

• 2:53:13Griffin Newman?

  There's a value judgment he's making, you're saying, people-

• 2:53:15Speaker 03

  And then you have to make that value judgment.

• 2:53:17Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 2:53:17Speaker 03

  So, for example-

• 2:53:18Griffin Newman?

  He's not doing it.

• 2:53:19Speaker 03

  So, for example, we think of the Betty Rita as, as a dream, because it is so heightened, all of these good things are happening to everybody. So, in our mind, we go, "That's not reality."

• 2:53:28Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:53:30Speaker 03

  But, but why? Do you know what I mean? Like, we, we think of this as fake, and yet, in this storyline, in this quote-unquote "dream", that everybody is saying that this is Diane's dream.

• 2:53:39David Sims?

  Sure.

• 2:53:41Speaker 03

  We see this scene that is so realistic. It feels so dropped, again, like, there was no part of me that was prepared with the tone of how she was behaving and how Reed is behaving and what their storyline has been like.

• 2:53:55David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:55Speaker 03

  For her, for her to drop in the way that she does.

• 2:53:58David Sims?

  I don't find this scene realistic.

• 2:54:01Griffin Newman?

  I think her performance within the scene. The context of the scene is as heightened, if not more heightened than anything else.

• 2:54:07David Sims?

  How I feel about this scene, which I think is an incredibly important scene.

• 2:54:09Griffin Newman?

  I'd love to let you talk about it.

• 2:54:11David Sims?

  There's a bunch of stuff going on here. One, it is this, again, Hollywood pastiche. You've got the crusty, orange-faced, soap opera actor-y kind of guy with the, "Ha ha, I'm gonna do this one a little close."

• 2:54:22Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and let me tell you how acting works.

• 2:54:24David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:54:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:54:25Griffin Newman?

  You've got the direct- I've been around the block a few times.

• 2:54:26David Sims?

  You've got the nice guy producer in the sweater who's like, "Ha, meet everyone," you know, right? You've got the, the ladies sitting there quietly.

• 2:54:33Griffin Newman?

  And you're so unclear on the power structure of the ladies, where he's like, "She's the best casting director, I wish we could get her."

• 2:54:38Speaker 03

  I wish she was, yeah, but she's just here.

• 2:54:39Griffin Newman?

  It doesn't reveal the ex-wife thing until later, but you're like, "What's she doing here if she..."

• 2:54:43Speaker 03

  The power dynamics are difficult to, to, because really, everyone's at the same level. No, no one is blocked in a way that we would understand.

• 2:54:51David Sims?

  And it's so intimate.

• 2:54:52Speaker 03

  It's so intimate, the director's-

• 2:54:54David Sims?

  The director is this hilarious parody.

• 2:54:56Griffin Newman?

  And the second you leave this room, your perception of every single person changes immediately.

• 2:55:00Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:55:02Griffin Newman?

  Where you're, you're watching, and you're like, "Well, this guy's a big enough star that he reads with the actresses, and he gets to make the decision. She leaves, they're like, 'This project's not going.'" You're like, "So that guy's not a big enough star for this to actually mean anything."

• 2:55:14Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 2:55:14David Sims?

  No, he's a crusty old creep. No offense to him, but he is. Uh, and I think he is an old soap opera actor. Lynch loves that kind of guy.

• 2:55:21Speaker 04

  Well, also, in the script, she's talking about her dad.

• 2:55:24David Sims?

  Yes, okay, so this is what-

• 2:55:25Speaker 04

  So this would make no sense, like, for him to be the actor.

• 2:55:29David Sims?

  This scene is the crux of everybody's theorizing about the film, is this scene.

• 2:55:32Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 2:55:32David Sims?

  It's like, why does she suddenly come alive like this?

• 2:55:35Speaker 03

  If the, if the winkie scene is the thesis, then this is the turning point. Of like, you know, that these things, yeah.

• 2:55:42David Sims?

  Why is this cute bubbly girl who shows no real sign of talent outside of being nice? Suddenly, the most killer fucking noir, like, real actor, she's crying. The emotion is right, right? Like, why is it so good? Now, if you want to think about this scene one way, it's like we are in her dream, right? We're in this failed actress's dream. One, she's imagining she crushed the scene. Great. That's the, but two, this is about, you know, this scene play, it comes close to her real life. Of like, she did something terrible. She did something dark. She acted out of revenge. Like, suddenly we're seeing reality bubble into the dream, right? Of like now.

• 2:56:25Speaker 03

  But is it reality?

• 2:56:26David Sims?

  I don't, I'm just, I'm just talking. I'm not saying this is a definitive reading. I'm just talking.

• 2:56:30Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 2:56:30David Sims?

  A lot of people think this film is about, much like much David Lynch stuff. Abuse, like, very, very dark abuse that happened to Betty, Diane, whoever, Naomi Watts, long ago. What do the old people represent? Like, you know, this terrifying, like, specter of her life, you know, long ago, right? Like, who then finally charged her before she dies.

• 2:56:51Griffin Newman?

  The family past that she ran away from, but also was running back to, and yeah.

• 2:56:56David Sims?

  Why does she suddenly, like, flip a switch when she's in this, like, creepy scenario?

• 2:57:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:02David Sims?

  Where this dad figure is suddenly has his hands all over her, you know what I mean? Like, what does the cowboy represent? What does the best moment in the movie in Silencio, Club Silencio, not to jump a little bit forward?

• 2:57:14Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:15David Sims?

  When essentially the guy just, you know, makes thunder noises and she starts rattling in her seat. What does that represent if not someone surfacing, like, some kind of trauma? And the trauma can be, oh, this is the dream of a woman who had her girlfriend killed and, like, that's it coming out, right? Or it can be something else. And like, so much David Lynch, such as Twin Peaks, is about him trying to reckon with. That like unspeakable darkness.

• 2:57:39Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, what I would almost argue that for me, this is the best scene in the movie. As opposed to.

• 2:57:46David Sims?

  I think Silencio is the best.

• 2:57:47Speaker 03

  No, no, I.

• 2:57:48David Sims?

  This is amazing.

• 2:57:49Speaker 03

  No, I would, listen, I.

• 2:57:50David Sims?

  It's weird to rank scenes in Mulholland Drive.

• 2:57:52Speaker 03

  It would be strange. I, I, but I would say that this was, this was the scene that like, that, that moved the, the film from intriguing.

• 2:58:00David Sims?

  Right. Like, what's going on here?

• 2:58:01Speaker 03

  Into cementing it as a masterpiece in my mind.

• 2:58:04David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:58:04Speaker 03

  You know, so maybe it's not the best or the most important.

• 2:58:06David Sims?

  No, but whatever. This is the scene where you're right, where you're suddenly like.

• 2:58:09Speaker 03

  And what I felt was, watching it for the first time, what I felt was survival. That's what I thought, watching her, was that she switched the, the power dynamics and the, the status of everybody.

• 2:58:20Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 2:58:20Speaker 03

  For survival. So it's not just.

• 2:58:22David Sims?

  She's being thrown into the water, kind of. Right, right.

• 2:58:25Speaker 03

  And the, and that the way that she combats that is a weird mixture of a, a acquiescence and agency.

• 2:58:34Griffin Newman?

  I agree.

• 2:58:35Speaker 03

  It's so weird.

• 2:58:36Griffin Newman?

  I agree. This is my exact.

• 2:58:37David Sims?

  She's playing the role they all want her to play.

• 2:58:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:58:40Griffin Newman?

  It is, it is.

• 2:58:40David Sims?

  The diamond in the rough.

• 2:58:41Speaker 03

  But she makes the, it's very clear that he, that with, with the hand going, pushing the hand further onto herself.

• 2:58:48David Sims?

  He's gonna play close.

• 2:58:49Speaker 03

  That she, that she, and for her to say like, yes, we're doing this, but I am gonna protect myself.

• 2:58:55Griffin Newman?

  It is.

• 2:58:55Speaker 03

  Within.

• 2:58:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. My read is, it is a Faustian bargain.

• 2:58:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:58:59Griffin Newman?

  And the key part of the story of Faust is that Faust says, yes. The deal is presented to him.

• 2:59:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:59:04Griffin Newman?

  And he goes, I think I can make this work, much like that Hugley.

• 2:59:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:59:08Griffin Newman?

  He goes, I can make this play out in my favor.

• 2:59:09David Sims?

  Right. He's sort of ostensibly not being tricked. It's like, right, the deal's on the table and you know what it is.

• 2:59:15Griffin Newman?

  Here's a guy setting up fake rules for a game, right? He's saying, well, we're doing that classic thing where we play it real close. You're a fucking creep and you wanna touch my body.

• 2:59:23Speaker 03

  You're disgusting. Yeah.

• 2:59:24Griffin Newman?

  Right? You're giving them the look like, hey, I'm gonna do the same thing with her I did with that other woman earlier. You're like, okay, so when he thinks they're attractive, he plays the scene a different way.

• 2:59:31David Sims?

  Especially as we now know, this is kind of a fake audition in a weird way.

• 2:59:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:59:36Griffin Newman?

  Then he's, then he's turning to her and saying, like, you know, cause acting is reacting. I need to be getting something to react off of.

• 2:59:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:59:42Griffin Newman?

  And it's turning into this bullshit lesson to justify why he's acting like a creep.

• 2:59:45David Sims?

  Right.

• 2:59:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:59:46Griffin Newman?

  But she actually takes that lesson.

• 2:59:48David Sims?

  She actually reacts. Right.

• 2:59:49Griffin Newman?

  Where she goes, fuck, if he's gonna do something that is not allowed, then what can I get off of this? What he's doing.

• 2:59:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:59:55Griffin Newman?

  That unlocks a different part of the performance, whether it's unlocking something because it is. Tied to a memory of an experience she's had.

• 3:00:02David Sims?

  Exactly. Or this is just how Hollywood is.

• 3:00:05Griffin Newman?

  A journey. She thinks, well, if you do this, and especially if I can use this and turn it into art.

• 3:00:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:00:11Griffin Newman?

  Make it into something ecstatic.

• 3:00:13Speaker 03

  As someone that-

• 3:00:13Griffin Newman?

  I'm in control again.

• 3:00:14Speaker 03

  And as someone that has been very deeply abused in this industry.

• 3:00:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:19Speaker 03

  Your instinct is to somehow, you have to survive it.

• 3:00:23David Sims?

  Turn lead into gold or whatever.

• 3:00:25Speaker 03

  In the moment, you have to survive it. Um, and you just go into fight or flight.

• 3:00:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:29Speaker 03

  But I think what this scene is, is, uh, exemplifying is, like I was saying, it's, it's somehow you have to transcend what's happening to you.

• 3:00:40Griffin Newman?

  Because once the person-

• 3:00:41Speaker 03

  It's almost like, because that's abuse, right? Is that you just leave your body, you know, like, and you just go into a particular survival mode. And what's so awesome about this scene is that her version of that

• 3:00:53Griffin Newman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:00:54Speaker 03

  switches the status of everybody in the room.

• 3:00:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, here's another thing. As the last, like, eight years, there's finally been a more open discourse about, like,

• 3:01:03Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly.

• 3:01:03Griffin Newman?

  the sort of abuse of power in Hollywood. And when there's literal abuse, or when even just the abuse is, people putting in this type of situation.

• 3:01:10Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:01:11Griffin Newman?

  This kind of test.

• 3:01:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:01:12Griffin Newman?

  To offer this as a test is abuse.

• 3:01:14Speaker 03

  It is a test. It is absolutely a test.

• 3:01:16Griffin Newman?

  It's a test.

• 3:01:17Speaker 03

  Like-

• 3:01:17Griffin Newman?

  It's how bad do you want it? Which is the fucking shorthand people use

• 3:01:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:01:21Griffin Newman?

  when they play scenes like this out, right?

• 3:01:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, it is this test of, of, uh, if, if you withstand this

• 3:01:29Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:30Speaker 03

  in this moment.

• 3:01:31Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:01:31Speaker 03

  Not, not, you have to do it right now.

• 3:01:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:34Speaker 03

  How are you going to, how are you going to survive this? Then, if Hollywood runs on fear.

• 3:01:41Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:01:41Speaker 03

  They are, in that moment, you are asked to produce the fuel of this-

• 3:01:48Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:01:49Speaker 03

  of this, of this fucking city and this industry.

• 3:01:51Griffin Newman?

  And the thing I find interesting in a way that's, you know, emotionally overwhelming, but the last eight years where suddenly it's like the black box has been opened.

• 3:01:58David Sims?

  Right.

• 3:01:59Griffin Newman?

  And there's a landscape in which people can share stories as survivors, right?

• 3:02:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:02:03David Sims?

  Right, right. And it's not just the most top extreme, like, monster, monster, monster shit.

• 3:02:08Griffin Newman?

  Well, this is the thing.

• 3:02:09David Sims?

  It's the, right, it's the low-

• 3:02:09Griffin Newman?

  Even within one person, right? Who suddenly now like a ton of victims come out of the woodwork or whatever it is. Let's, let's use like Kevin Spacey as an example, right? You have stories where it's like, he did this to this extreme. Physical boundaries were crossed and this and that. And there are also stories where it's like Adam, Anthony Rapp, right? Where he's like, he crawled on top of me and I pushed him off.

• 3:02:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:02:32Griffin Newman?

  And some people would go, well, so he didn't rape you. What's the problem?

• 3:02:35David Sims?

  Right.

• 3:02:36Griffin Newman?

  And you're like, the moment he creates the test.

• 3:02:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:02:40Griffin Newman?

  Of I'm trying this and seeing how you respond.

• 3:02:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:02:43Griffin Newman?

  Your reality has forever been broken. Something has changed in that room.

• 3:02:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:02:47Griffin Newman?

  The second the guy says nice and close. It's like, well, fuck, do you walk out of the room? Do you play it?

• 3:02:52David Sims?

  It's even below, right? Forget Spacey. It's right. It's more just what you're talking about. Just the general context of a casting scene.

• 3:02:58Griffin Newman?

  It's before the scene starts.

• 3:02:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:02:59David Sims?

  Right. Of just where no one would ever, you know, call the police.

• 3:03:04Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:03:04David Sims?

  Uh, over like, there was an awful vibe to this casting scene.

• 3:03:09Speaker 03

  The shocking thing, the shocking thing that I experienced, again, being very intensely abused is in, in, in this industry is it comes out of, out of nowhere. It's even if you know the person is abusive, you're still surprised that it come, that it's directed at you. And you're shocked that they actually did it within that context. Going back to what you were saying about wankies and just the, the understanding that, that, you know, unhoused person.

• 3:03:37Griffin Newman?

  We just agree that she doesn't open the door and come in here. That's her space and this is our space.

• 3:03:41Speaker 03

  There is a bizarre thing that happens when you are shoved or screamed at or, um, uh, threatened.

• 3:03:49Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:50Speaker 03

  That, that you are in a room full of people like this. Full of people, usually men, usually, you know, older men and you are on, you are, there is no one helping you.

• 3:04:02Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:02Speaker 03

  No one steps in and says, stop doing that to her.

• 3:04:05Griffin Newman?

  And also sometimes it's three women. And sitting on a couch watching it happen. And you're looking at them and you go.

• 3:04:10David Sims?

  And almost checked out like just like.

• 3:04:12Griffin Newman?

  And the feeling is, well, they're not acting like this is weird. Well, so am I weird for thinking something's weird?

• 3:04:18Speaker 03

  Exactly. And there's no, there's no reaction shot. That's the other thing. And I think that's how he expresses probably what he has experienced.

• 3:04:26Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:04:26Speaker 03

  Is that the abuse happens and then there's no reaction. And so the audience is going, I'm expecting a reaction. And it's like, no, it's only your reaction viewer.

• 3:04:36Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:04:36Speaker 03

  It's you're the only person who's going to react to what is happening to her.

• 3:04:40Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:04:41David Sims?

  You might just watch this movie and not think about it like that's the scene where she crushes the audition. And then you see it a second time and you're like, oh, it's funny how they're arranged. Like the, you know, the people in the room. And then you watch it again, you're like, oh, I see how the old guy is not acting, is trying something. What, you know what I mean? Like it's like, oh, oh, oh, oh, right. You know, whatever.

• 3:05:02Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:05:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:05:02David Sims?

  It's, um.

• 3:05:04Griffin Newman?

  There's more performance in the setup of the audition than there is in the performance that happens within the audition.

• 3:05:11David Sims?

  There's a lot.

• 3:05:11Griffin Newman?

  Of everyone playing their roles of being benevolent and happy.

• 3:05:14Speaker 03

  Performative kind of, yeah, absolutely.

• 3:05:16Griffin Newman?

  And then it's like what we're saying of where the fuck did this come from? What did she just drop into? It's like, the veil has dropped and now she's actually in the context of, I'm faking it, achieving a greater reality.

• 3:05:27Speaker 03

  That is what's crazy. It's like, oh my God, it's so triggering because you're right. It's like you come into the situation and everybody is so like cordial.

• 3:05:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:05:35Speaker 03

  You know, everybody is behaving the way that we have all agreed that people behave. And what's so shocking, and again, I, my experience, it's, it's this particular industry. Is that there is this performative aspect of this is a safe, not even safe space. This is just a normal space.

• 3:05:52Griffin Newman?

  Normal.

• 3:05:52Speaker 03

  This is just a normal.

• 3:05:54Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:05:54Speaker 03

  You know, work.

• 3:05:55Griffin Newman?

  This is how it is.

• 3:05:55Speaker 03

  This is just how it is. We're all working, you know? And then all of the sudden this violence happens.

• 3:06:00Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:01Speaker 03

  And you cannot, uh, you cannot process it.

• 3:06:05Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:06:06Speaker 03

  You, what, or what you're forced to do in that moment as a victim is you have to process it as, as something that is, again, what I think Lynch does so well. In this movie, you have to process it as something that is probably one of the worst things that has ever happened to you and this like horrible horrific moment and yet you're also feeling this this oppressive

• 3:06:32Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:06:32Speaker 03

  normality coming at you.

• 3:06:34Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:06:34Speaker 03

  You know, there's no, there's no.

• 3:06:37Griffin Newman?

  How do you force yourself to cry in a controlled environment?

• 3:06:39Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 3:06:40Griffin Newman?

  It's unnatural to be able to make yourself cry when you're not actually being punished.

• 3:06:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:06:44Griffin Newman?

  Or suffering, right?

• 3:06:45Speaker 03

  If you cannot, you you just sort of fall into this.

• 3:06:50Speaker 03

  That's why the scene feels, like you said, the first time you watch it, you're like, what a, what a fucking brilliant actress.

• 3:06:56Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:06:57Speaker 03

  Like, what, I don't even know what's unfolding in front of me.

• 3:06:59David Sims?

  Naomi Watts.

• 3:07:00Speaker 03

  You're thinking about Naomi Watts. And it's only later, I mean, you have that kind of ugh moment when he touches her.

• 3:07:05David Sims?

  Sure. But again, I do feel like a lot of the people at the time were like, ah, old Hollywood handsy guys.

• 3:07:11Speaker 03

  He's over it, yeah. And watching it exactly like in the time that we're in now.

• 3:07:15Griffin Newman?

  Even though we're not in a, in the time this movie comes out, even though it was a culture where people were not allowed to share their stories of their experience in this kind of way.

• 3:07:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:07:22Griffin Newman?

  It was so well known that movies like fucking Toy Story two can make a joke about Stinky Pete. Like having a private audition with the Barbies.

• 3:07:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:07:30Griffin Newman?

  And you were like, this is shorthand in a kid's movie. Everyone knows.

• 3:07:33David Sims?

  But I mean, but you did just. It's just the most wonderful Griffin thing in the world that you're like, I mean, like, we all knew Stinky Pete was right there with the Marvins.

• 3:07:43Griffin Newman?

  He's telling you it's normal that he's staying in the box and it's not.

• 3:07:45Speaker 03

  And it's, yeah.

• 3:07:47Griffin Newman?

  It's not, that's not normal. Uh, no, I think. You know, acting is a great expression of this idea because it's an art form that is just about manipulating your own emotions in your body and brain.

• 3:07:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08:00Griffin Newman?

  Right? But I think most artists who are able to work in grand emotion in any way, make things that make people feel and represent great feeling.

• 3:08:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08:10Griffin Newman?

  Not to make a blanket statement, but very often that either comes out of some trauma they experienced in their life up until that point that put them in touch with something dark and deep, right? Or you are born with like an innate painful sense of sensitivity.

• 3:08:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08:26Griffin Newman?

  Even if your experiences in your life, as Lynch sort of describes his childhood of like, my childhood was actually the white picket fence.

• 3:08:32David Sims?

  Right, right.

• 3:08:33Griffin Newman?

  It wasn't, I say to you, these things actually represent worth to me. I was not living in the darkness underneath the grass.

• 3:08:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08:42Griffin Newman?

  But clearly as a guy who was born with like this innate, my skin is ripped off, my nerves are exposed, I'm noticing everything, I'm feeling everything.

• 3:08:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08:52Griffin Newman?

  And that allows me to then bring those feelings back up to the surface again.

• 3:08:59Speaker 03

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• 3:09:40David Sims?

  You crush the audition, you get to go see Adam Kirsch, but then of course it's like, no, it's too late. He's already being forced to cast this other person.

• 3:09:49Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 3:09:49David Sims?

  They have this, they exchange this look, again feels sort of like a TV pilot thing of like, next week on Mulholland Drive, we'll see whatever that is.

• 3:09:57Griffin Newman?

  But in a fixed object, it becomes, this is the one moment.

• 3:10:00David Sims?

  It's this moment where it could have happened, and then now we're moving on.

• 3:10:04Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:04David Sims?

  She goes back, and then the mystery resumes where she and Rita then like go to this house, and they sort of find their way in, there's this sort of scorned other woman.

• 3:10:16Griffin Newman?

  They think it might be her.

• 3:10:17David Sims?

  Correct. This might be her house. And they find a rotting corpse in the bed.

• 3:10:22Speaker 03

  And I just have to clock.

• 3:10:23David Sims?

  The TV pilot, to be clear, ends here.

• 3:10:25Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 3:10:25David Sims?

  That's it.

• 3:10:26Speaker 03

  Oh, got it, got it, got it.

• 3:10:27David Sims?

  Yes.

• 3:10:27Speaker 03

  I just have to clock, um, that Rita is wearing the craziest thing I've ever seen. It just, she's like Morticia or something with those sleeves. It's just wild.

• 3:10:36David Sims?

  And then right after that, of course, they make her seem even more normal by putting her in a crazy blonde wig.

• 3:10:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:10:43David Sims?

  Um, to basically being like, we're afraid for your life. And then the scene after that, it is so funny to imagine the phone call of like Lynch is like, I started writing, the next scene is you fuck in a bed.

• 3:10:53Speaker 03

  That's, yeah.

• 3:10:54David Sims?

  I mean, it's right to it, you know, it's like, that's the next thing.

• 3:10:57Griffin Newman?

  This movie's now rated R.

• 3:11:01Speaker 03

  I was not out when I, when I saw this scene.

• 3:11:04Griffin Newman?

  Sure.

• 3:11:04Speaker 03

  And I have to say, like, again, it was just so, uh, it was just, I just, I don't know what to say. It like, it, I do believe that when you're a queer person, there's sort of a moment where it, it, you get unlocked.

• 3:11:20David Sims?

  Sure, something.

• 3:11:20Speaker 03

  Something sort of happened. My wife says like when she saw Ellen, you know, come out, you know, like come out or, or at some point watching Ellen, she was like, oh, that's, that's what I am.

• 3:11:29David Sims?

  This is why representation matters.

• 3:11:31Griffin Newman?

  A blue key, in a way, right?

• 3:11:33Speaker 03

  It's so true though.

• 3:11:34Griffin Newman?

  But you're like, oh, this mirrors something, this speaks to something in me. Here's a blue key. I'm opening a new door.

• 3:11:40Speaker 03

  I'm opening a new door and it's so, it is so, it's, I hate the phrase, representation matters, but it does. The second I saw this.

• 3:11:48Griffin Newman?

  And it's why everyone who complains about it needs to shut the fuck up forever.

• 3:11:51Speaker 03

  They just need to shut the fuck up. They just, also the sex scene is so intact, meaning like they feel like they have already been lovers.

• 3:11:58David Sims?

  That's why it's such an interesting sex.

• 3:12:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:12:00David Sims?

  Because it's like, they get it. I remember my audience laughing very clearly when, you know, it's like, uh, Deb, Rita gets in bed naked. There's this kind of, oh, no, yeah, you know, chumminess that then they have this kind of kiss and. Betty asks, have you ever done this before? And we're just like, I don't know. And I remember my audience laughing.

• 3:12:18Speaker 03

  That is, but it's funny.

• 3:12:19David Sims?

  Yeah, she doesn't fucking know.

• 3:12:20Speaker 03

  I mean, again, it's like, it's like the, the girl getting punched by the Gollum. Like, there's just this sort of pop of like, you know, a pun.

• 3:12:27David Sims?

  Right.

• 3:12:27Speaker 03

  Or a, um, yeah.

• 3:12:28David Sims?

  That's objectively a funny little thing for her to say at this moment. But then, right, they have this moment where it's like, it feels like they've been doing this forever. But also they don't even know each other. One of them doesn't even know who she is.

• 3:12:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:12:40David Sims?

  It's like very intimate, but it's also very fumbling.

• 3:12:44Speaker 03

  Betty is coded very heterosexual.

• 3:12:46David Sims?

  Of course. So you're just like, what? I want to with you, she keeps saying, like this kind of like, you know.

• 3:12:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:12:51David Sims?

  This happens to me anytime I have sex. The person then falls asleep and then wakes up and starts saying, no, I banda, silencio, silencio.

• 3:12:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, no, I banda. Yeah, yeah, very normal.

• 3:13:00David Sims?

  I'm there smoking my cigarette and they're like, no, I banda. And I'm like, here we go.

• 3:13:04Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:13:05David Sims?

  Gotta go to Club Silencio.

• 3:13:06Griffin Newman?

  The whole ball and chain going off again.

• 3:13:08Speaker 03

  What I like about her doing that, or I would say, again, my experience of watching her doing that and then going into Silencio is this sort of, and her, you know, and then Betty shaking is that there's this sort of breakdowns.

• 3:13:19David Sims?

  Obviously, the, the, whatever we're in is coming apart.

• 3:13:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. There's some sort of, there's some, yeah, there's something.

• 3:13:25Griffin Newman?

  That alters your reality.

• 3:13:26David Sims?

  And, and Club Silencio is very different from like the, the lodge in Twin Peaks. But still, there is a big red velvet curtain. And it is a place where someone comes out and is basically saying, this is a dream. Not to say that Leslie's reading on the film this.

• 3:13:40Speaker 03

  I have a reading on this. Keep going, keep going, keep going.

• 3:13:43David Sims?

  But, you know, but obviously.

• 3:13:43Speaker 03

  This is a dream, yeah.

• 3:13:44David Sims?

  Beyond the fact that it's about maybe someone saying like, you are in a dream. It's also about Hollywood, right? Like, you know, this is all a tape recording. This is staged.

• 3:13:51Griffin Newman?

  The place where dreams are made, the dream factory.

• 3:13:53David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 3:13:54Speaker 03

  Again, this is why it feels like it's about a dream. Instead of it's not, it is a dream because he's saying.

• 3:13:59David Sims?

  I love that.

• 3:14:00Speaker 03

  There's no, there's no ban. There's no, there, none of this is real. None of this is real. None of this is real. And then, of course, it's very real to them. And even as a viewer, I remember seeing it for the first time and going, I, I, I, when she falls, I actually had forgotten.

• 3:14:15David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:15Speaker 03

  And I think that was the point. I think when the guy from the motel comes out.

• 3:14:19David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:19Speaker 03

  And he does something. He says something or does something.

• 3:14:23David Sims?

  Cookie. He comes out next, after the magician.

• 3:14:24Speaker 03

  And you do think, in some way, your brain just goes, this is a different scene. And I don't know why. I don't know if it's because you recognize the actor, or you recognize it. So suddenly, there's this weird, like, I don't know if it's the, and then maybe it's the, he uses that blinking lights or electricity a lot to like, signal some sort of transition. So I think that the, it's the blue light on the microphone. Is that what happens after the Noai Bando?

• 3:14:50David Sims?

  So, Noai Bando, you know, the guy comes out with the muted trumpet, which I love, where he's duh duh duh duh duh duh.

• 3:14:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, again, again, probably just.

• 3:14:57David Sims?

  Do you love this, Ben?

• 3:14:58Speaker 03

  I do.

• 3:14:58David Sims?

  It's the best.

• 3:14:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:15:00David Sims?

  Um.

• 3:15:00Speaker 03

  Because it's, it's silly. It's very silly.

• 3:15:03David Sims?

  It's silly and scary. It's kind of funny and also kind of profound.

• 3:15:08Speaker 03

  Again, with the, with the, with the geographical location, I just love that he's pinging downtown LA here.

• 3:15:14David Sims?

  Right, sure.

• 3:15:15Speaker 03

  Which is like, honestly, a part of LA that very rarely any, anything takes place in. Because it's so just. Gili. Does it? Am I wrong?

• 3:15:24David Sims?

  Uh, you're right that Gili is set in downtown Los Angeles.

• 3:15:27Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. And I'm glad that you brought it up on a Holland. And that was part of Martin Brez's argument for why he wanted to make that film.

• 3:15:32David Sims?

  About this. We're gonna keep moving.

• 3:15:33Speaker 03

  And he had a lot of interesting stuff to say about it.

• 3:15:35David Sims?

  The guy who plays the magician is Richard Green. The guy's called the magician in the script, which is sort of interesting to think about. And, uh, he says that Lynch would not let him read the script, but built a full body cast of him that he was going to set on fire as part of this scene.

• 3:15:48Speaker 03

  Are you kidding me?

• 3:15:49David Sims?

  And they decided that would look stupid and they didn't do it. And said he does the thing with the thunder and lightning, right?

• 3:15:54Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:15:54David Sims?

  Where Betty starts shaking and then he vanishes in a puff of smoke.

• 3:15:57Speaker 03

  Oh, right, he does.

• 3:15:59David Sims?

  He sure does. And then we have the blue light. And then out comes Cookie and is like, uh, please welcome Rebecca Del Rio. And she comes out and she sings Roy Orbison's Crying in Spanish. And it's the most perfect scene in history of film.

• 3:16:11Speaker 03

  I, I, if I'm remembering correctly, the blue haired lady is the script supervisor or the?

• 3:16:16David Sims?

  Oh, oh, like who plays the, yeah. In the movie, she represents the script supervisor. That's who she is. But she's, she's the script girl.

• 3:16:22Speaker 03

  No, it's, it's somebody on the crew.

• 3:16:24David Sims?

  I think you're right.

• 3:16:24Speaker 03

  It was somebody on the, and I thought that about the muted trumpet guy as well.

• 3:16:27David Sims?

  I think you're right.

• 3:16:28Speaker 03

  You just, you get the sense that like, I agree that it's silly. It's like, you get this sense that he's just grabbing people. Well, it's. Not the singer, obviously.

• 3:16:35Griffin Newman?

  It's one of the things that helps maintain such an odd reality in all of his work is he like puts actors at wildly different levels together.

• 3:16:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:16:45Griffin Newman?

  Right? Where you're like, you have people who are naturalistic and people who are heightened and people who are from an old school.

• 3:16:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:16:52Griffin Newman?

  Like Coco, where you're just like, oh, wow, right. This is someone who hasn't acted since the 50s.

• 3:16:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:16:56Griffin Newman?

  This is a different type of movie acting. And here's someone who doesn't think of themselves as an actor at all.

• 3:17:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:17:01Griffin Newman?

  And is just an energy and a look that he recognizes.

• 3:17:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:17:04Griffin Newman?

  And these people are all interfacing with each other.

• 3:17:06Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 3:17:07David Sims?

  The magic of the song where she's singing, it's like, for one, the dreamy thing or like the things are being refracted, right? Like an old 50s, 60s, whenever Crying is from, my favorite Roy Orbison song, song that's being like sung in another language by a different person, right? And it's so intensely emotional, but maybe you don't know what she's saying, right? If you don't know Spanish. And she's so in it, but then she feints it away and the music keeps going. So like the artifice is completely laid bare for you of it.

• 3:17:38Griffin Newman?

  But also like familiar things being made unfamiliar.

• 3:17:41David Sims?

  Right? It is everything.

• 3:17:42Griffin Newman?

  I know this song, but why are they?

• 3:17:44David Sims?

  What's this is funny?

• 3:17:44Griffin Newman?

  Why is she singing in Spanish?

• 3:17:45David Sims?

  Right.

• 3:17:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:17:46Griffin Newman?

  This movie isn't in Spanish.

• 3:17:48David Sims?

  Uh, and then kind of the creepiest thing to me, creepy is unspoken thing is that they go back home and Betty just disappears.

• 3:17:56Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:17:56David Sims?

  And then it's just Rita in the apartment by herself. And then she's like, I guess I'll.

• 3:18:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, they get the.

• 3:18:02David Sims?

  Open the blue box?

• 3:18:03Speaker 03

  Well, they get the.

• 3:18:04David Sims?

  But like Betty's just gone and no one like says anything.

• 3:18:07Speaker 03

  They get the, well, Betty takes out the, the, at Silencio, Betty, Betty takes out the, the cube.

• 3:18:13David Sims?

  And suddenly the cube has materialized.

• 3:18:15Speaker 03

  Has materialized. And, um, her, her manicure is terrible. I just want to also say that.

• 3:18:20Griffin Newman?

  Wow.

• 3:18:20Speaker 03

  Not unlike all of their costumes. Like it's just bad.

• 3:18:23Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:18:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:18:24Griffin Newman?

  Fake nails.

• 3:18:25David Sims?

  But, uh, and then we are in. The other part of the movie. Time to wake up.

• 3:18:31Griffin Newman?

  Uh huh.

• 3:18:31Speaker 03

  Where should we start with this? I, I wanna start with, um, uh, Watts's 180.

• 3:18:38Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 3:18:39David Sims?

  I mean, maybe the most, the most powerful-

• 3:18:41Speaker 03

  Fucking shit.

• 3:18:42David Sims?

  Trick of the new world is how different she is in look and attitude.

• 3:18:47Griffin Newman?

  But also, the movie looks different.

• 3:18:49David Sims?

  It does, yeah. Her apartment looks weird and creepy.

• 3:18:52Griffin Newman?

  But beyond that, you have to think about, in the pilot, the footage that was shot for the pilot, you are still trying to conform to television standards, which is, this pilot, despite being shot on film by Peter Demming, by a filmmaker-

• 3:19:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:19:08Griffin Newman?

  -was going to be aired on standard definition for by three television, most likely.

• 3:19:11Speaker 03

  I was wondering about that, yeah.

• 3:19:13Griffin Newman?

  You have to light things pretty brightly, because people's TVs aren't well calibrated, right?

• 3:19:18David Sims?

  Yeah. I wonder how much, right? Because they talk about how they sort of tried to adjust it.

• 3:19:22Griffin Newman?

  That's the thing, because you're unlocking now, at this point in the movie, him designing images that he knows will be projected on a bigger screen. People are going to-

• 3:19:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:19:31Griffin Newman?

  Actually be able to engage with this imagery in a very different physical form.

• 3:19:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:19:36Griffin Newman?

  And so suddenly, it's like, the texture of the film stock-

• 3:19:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:19:40Griffin Newman?

  -the color palette of the movie, the angles, all these things become totally different, while her performance is in entirely different register.

• 3:19:48Speaker 03

  You, you're absolutely right. This is why I think, and again, I, I don't disagree, I'm, I would never disagree with somebody saying that the, that the first two thirds are a dream, and then the last third is-

• 3:19:58David Sims?

  I'm more, I present that more as the, the sort of basic reading. Not consensus even, just kind of like, that is a basic reading one can have at Mulholland Drive.

• 3:20:07Speaker 03

  But there are two, there, listen, there are two things, I'm gonna do an, I'm gonna offer up, uh, a reason why I don't think it is, and a reason why I absolutely would agree that, that- Someone would think it is.

• 3:20:21David Sims?

  Well.

• 3:20:21Speaker 03

  The first one is that the reason I kind of get hung up on the whole first part is a dream is all of the changes of POV. And I'm not saying that you don't dream.

• 3:20:31David Sims?

  Right, why are we suddenly with this person?

• 3:20:33Speaker 03

  And we're suddenly with somebody else. It doesn't feel like, only because, not that you can't be in different storylines in a dream, but they're so tonally, I think we're.

• 3:20:42David Sims?

  We're being dropped into the middle of things. It's odd. Yes. Things like the hitman and the winkies. Yes.

• 3:20:47Speaker 03

  You know, anyway, it, so that's one thing that kind of trips me up about it. What I will say that, that the, why, why I think people immediately go to the place of this is the, this is reality, or this is who Diane actually is, is Watts's performance. Is that she, but I mean, it is very, but again, it's very over the top. The way she behaves when she sees Camilla, that weird like, you know, and then smiling and like, you know, this like, he came back, like it's this horrifically pathetic mirroring Adam Kesher like, like just, and having been that.

• 3:21:25David Sims?

  She's pathetic in every way. Like she's pathetic there.

• 3:21:27Speaker 03

  So she sees.

• 3:21:28David Sims?

  Not to be worried about.

• 3:21:29Speaker 03

  No, but she does that. She does it at Camilla. She does it at Camilla.

• 3:21:32David Sims?

  Fucking nailed her in a tree.

• 3:21:32Speaker 03

  She suddenly has this, then she retracts and she kind of does it. And then we cut to her looking at herself.

• 3:21:38David Sims?

  Yeah, that is, it's such a cool fake out.

• 3:21:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. So as you move on for the rest of the story, there is this feeling of, unlike Kesher, there's this feeling that she has the self-awareness of her pathetic.

• 3:21:53David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:21:53Speaker 03

  But the, the fact that she's pathetic.

• 3:21:55David Sims?

  Yes. Because also.

• 3:21:57Griffin Newman?

  Which is, I mean, all the stuff we're talking about, about the decisions you make in the industry to what you will accept to get ahead and whatever.

• 3:22:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:22:05Griffin Newman?

  It's like, but then you cross a line and you're on the other side of reality, which is just like, this is just who I am. I've made this bed for myself.

• 3:22:11Speaker 03

  And when I watched, again, when I watched this in the theater, this in the masturbation scene. And I really don't mean to get too dark here.

• 3:22:19David Sims?

  Please.

• 3:22:19Speaker 03

  But when I watched her seeing Camilla and standing in that kitchen with that shitty coffee maker, and then the masturbation scene, I was like, this is me. Like, I just, I related with it so, and again.

• 3:22:32David Sims?

  I mean, I also.

• 3:22:34Speaker 03

  I was just like, how has he, so I get awakened.

• 3:22:37Griffin Newman?

  How does he know?

• 3:22:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. I was like, the lesbian scene awoke something in me. Again, it was so dream, not dream, like, but, you know, dream fulfillment-y.

• 3:22:49David Sims?

  Fantastical, yes.

• 3:22:50Speaker 03

  Beautiful, they already know each other. And then you get dropped into this horrifically lonely, desperate, pathetic place that.

• 3:22:59David Sims?

  I jerk off to pebbles all the time in my jorts, just FYI. So I don't, I don't want.

• 3:23:03Griffin Newman?

  I have two pebbles here on my desk. I pull them on my shoe sole if you want them for later. Not to get too horny on main, but.

• 3:23:09Speaker 03

  The thing that blew my mind too in seeing this, and I constantly use this as a reference too, is that I just think it is the most, I know that it's very dark, and the tone around it is very dark, and the character is very dark and is in a very dark place.

• 3:23:22David Sims?

  Yes.

• 3:23:23Speaker 03

  But the actual masturbation is so realistic to female masturbation. Like, usually when you saw it.

• 3:23:30David Sims?

  Hard sweaty work.

• 3:23:31Speaker 03

  Exactly. Like, when you, like.

• 3:23:33David Sims?

  I'm not joking.

• 3:23:34Speaker 03

  No, you would see, you would see very intense male masturbation in films. Like, you would see the sort of emptiness afterwards, this kind of.

• 3:23:42David Sims?

  Whereas with women, it's like this sort of.

• 3:23:44Speaker 03

  They're like, oh.

• 3:23:45David Sims?

  It goes in this secret place.

• 3:23:46Griffin Newman?

  It's a tentative dance.

• 3:23:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's like still beautiful. And so.

• 3:23:51Griffin Newman?

  Joan Allen makes a tree catch on fire.

• 3:23:53David Sims?

  She does. Well, hey, wait a second. It was pretty intense of her.

• 3:23:55Speaker 03

  Like, pleasant.

• 3:23:56Griffin Newman?

  But that's her in a bath and she'll, huh. And then like color.

• 3:23:59Speaker 03

  Suddenly, like, she's a color. It just, to watch this, and again, I don't mean that every time. It's like pebbles and like.

• 3:24:07David Sims?

  She could just be looking at something that's not, just fucking cobblestones on the wall, in and out of focus.

• 3:24:12Speaker 03

  Well, I felt like she's imagining.

• 3:24:14David Sims?

  She's remembering this sex they had.

• 3:24:16Speaker 03

  Trying to do that, and she cannot conjure it up. That's why, again, about a dream, she's trying to recall and hold on to that dream.

• 3:24:24Griffin Newman?

  Back in.

• 3:24:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, somehow I'm gonna be.

• 3:24:25David Sims?

  Keeps losing it.

• 3:24:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:24:27David Sims?

  And then it's like, nope, shitty life. Because the scenes are, it's like,

• 3:24:30Speaker 03

  Nope, shitty life.

• 3:24:31David Sims?

  It's her making coffee and seeing, she thinks Camilla, it's just herself. Uh, and then it's her on set remembering, we assume,

• 3:24:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:24:38David Sims?

  Adam like kissing Camilla, being like, this is how we're gonna do this scene, right? Where she's like dressed in this really dowdy costume as some like shitty tiny character.

• 3:24:47Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:24:47David Sims?

  Like watching, you know, sort of with envy.

• 3:24:51Speaker 03

  It's also this, it's also this.

• 3:24:52David Sims?

  And then the sex scene that she's remembering and the masturbation.

• 3:24:56Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. I mean, the loneliness, the intense.

• 3:24:58David Sims?

  She's pathetic in all these scenes in different ways.

• 3:25:01Speaker 03

  And the intense fantasy, like to have those things. Again, it's like, I just feel like he's trying to, he's trying to capture some sort of like, all of this stuff is happening at the same time. Your future, your past, what you want in life, what's actually happening. The, the, the dangerousness at daytime, the, the, the dream of having a comfortable home. Understanding that like, somebody can love you and also not want to be with you. Like, there, again, I do get why, when you drop into it, it does feel like reality. But I think it's because we, again, that, that first shot of Blue Velvet, I think, just cemented him into this idea that, that the dream is good.

• 3:25:42David Sims?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:25:43Speaker 03

  Everything that is good is the dream and everything that is bad is reality.

• 3:25:47Griffin Newman?

  And, and that the dream is a lie.

• 3:25:49Speaker 03

  And that the dream is a lie.

• 3:25:50Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:25:51Speaker 03

  I don't think.

• 3:25:51Griffin Newman?

  And the ear is.

• 3:25:52David Sims?

  But like, the dream is not good, exactly.

• 3:25:54Griffin Newman?

  Well, that's the point.

• 3:25:55David Sims?

  That's what I'm saying. It's weird and jarring.

• 3:25:58Speaker 03

  Listening to him or reading his interviews about, you know, a lot of stuff, it just feels like he, he's trying to, or not even trying, he's accomplishing.

• 3:26:11Speaker 03

  I think that's why people are always saying it's a dreamlike state, because that's the only time we are actually aware that that's happening. I think right now, I'm having, I'm here, I'm having a podcast, I'm having a podcast.

• 3:26:21Griffin Newman?

  Thank you for being here.

• 3:26:22Speaker 03

  I'm obsessed with being here. I, I, I love this movie.

• 3:26:25David Sims?

  You've been here for so long, we just feel really bad.

• 3:26:26Speaker 03

  I'm obsessed, like, this is so, but there's this, you know, as I'm sitting here, there's all kinds of things going through my mind.

• 3:26:33Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:33Speaker 03

  Right? There's things I have to do. There's things that I. Did do. There's like, they're just, they just, I'm, in watching images that he has put together, I am remembering being 26 years old, living in Hollywood and, and feeling absolutely desperate. And that I was never gonna make it and I was never gonna get paid and I was never gonna get into the union, you know, like.

• 3:26:54Griffin Newman?

  And you're trying to game it out in your head, if I were to make it, what do I need to do? What am I fucking up right now?

• 3:26:59Speaker 03

  And the only thing-

• 3:26:59Griffin Newman?

  What am I willing to give up in order to get to the other side?

• 3:27:02Speaker 03

  And, exactly. And what I relate with so much in this section is, the only way you can survive that level of depression, borderline personality disorder, whatever you wanna call it. In my experience as a, as a, as a person with, with mental health, you know, issues and having come out, and addiction issues and having come out the other side, when you're in it though, you have to hang on to the dream.

• 3:27:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:27:29Speaker 03

  And usually the dream is other person centric, because that's much more tangible than like, the dream of becoming famous. The dream of being, you know, Stanley Kubrick. The dream, the dream that's never gonna happen because that's not what Hollywood is anymore.

• 3:27:42Griffin Newman?

  But I think with aspiring for success, fame, whatever it is, notoriety.

• 3:27:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:27:48Griffin Newman?

  The other person centric can be, and this is back to the core of what this movie is.

• 3:27:52Speaker 03

  But Kristen Stewart, Kristen Stewart.

• 3:27:54Griffin Newman?

  A version of yourself. It can be a version of a different person.

• 3:27:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:27:58Griffin Newman?

  It doesn't have to be, I'm so in love with this person and I'm building my entire dream around the idea of our relationship. It could be your relationship to the version of me that has made it on the other side.

• 3:28:07Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. And if you can, if you're super, Kristen Stewart, Mark Ruffalo, these are-

• 3:28:11Griffin Newman?

  So good, we brought this up. And David was scoffing and right now-

• 3:28:15Speaker 03

  He was scoffing, he was trying to cut us off.

• 3:28:16Griffin Newman?

  People are throwing awards at us.

• 3:28:18David Sims?

  I want to speak.

• 3:28:20Speaker 03

  They did it.

• 3:28:21David Sims?

  I wish to speak.

• 3:28:22Speaker 03

  But they, but, but one thing that I noticed was, I would have sexual partners at that time and, at that very, very dark time in my life, and my experience was, you have, you do enter this weird liminal space where, what's elusive is the approval of an entire industry, right? What's elusive is, you know, Bob, Bob Booker didn't like me in the audition. You know, like what's elusive is, I don't understand why this person is making it and I'm not making it. I don't get why, you know, I'm getting the chance to make the movie, but I have to have it be this girl. And therefore, the monomania of if I got the approval from this one person. Do you know what I mean? Like then it would be a tangible- That's why I think it's about a dream.

• 3:29:07Griffin Newman?

  If I could just blank, I'd be happy.

• 3:29:10Speaker 03

  I'd be happy.

• 3:29:10Griffin Newman?

  I'm not even saying I need all of it.

• 3:29:13Speaker 03

  If I could fuck, if I could fuck this person again, even if I'm begging, even if I'm begging for this person to fuck me again.

• 3:29:17David Sims?

  The other fantasy that she is indulging, in both sides of the story, but in the dark side, is what if I fucking killed that person?

• 3:29:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:29:29David Sims?

  Who is the, you know, responsible for all my misery, right?

• 3:29:32Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:29:32David Sims?

  In fact, it's Camilla. She took my parts. She screwed me over romantically.

• 3:29:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:29:38David Sims?

  You know, she's the reason I'm not what I wanted to be, blah, blah, blah.

• 3:29:42Speaker 03

  Totally agree, yeah.

• 3:29:42David Sims?

  Because the idea of hiring Mark Pellegrino as your hitman, one, Mark Pellegrino's too hot to be your hitman.

• 3:29:47Griffin Newman?

  Two, we've watched it. This guy turns into a fucking Keystone Cops routine, bundling the job.

• 3:29:52David Sims?

  We've all seen Netflix's Hitman. There's no such thing as Hitman. But, you know, right, the fantasy of like, yeah, I hired someone to kill her. That's a fantasy too, even if this back half of the movie is the real Diane, or however you want to think about it. Like, it's another Hollywood story.

• 3:30:09Griffin Newman?

  Creating a loop, which is like, why is she being driven in a car to get killed at the beginning?

• 3:30:13David Sims?

  That's the thing.

• 3:30:14Griffin Newman?

  Because the greatest wish is that you had never met her in the first place, that you stopped the first meeting from happening in a certain way.

• 3:30:19David Sims?

  But, right.

• 3:30:19Griffin Newman?

  You can kill her, but what does that solve? Because you have the experience.

• 3:30:22David Sims?

  But it's also like, right, the imagination maybe of like, ah, but what if I, what if I hadn't killed her? Or what if she hadn't died?

• 3:30:29Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:30:29David Sims?

  And she'd escaped, and we'd found each other again.

• 3:30:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:33David Sims?

  In the city of dreams, Hollywood.

• 3:30:35Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:30:35David Sims?

  And we'd figured this out. It would go great. It would go great. I would go great to great at that audition, which would be normal and not like actually unsettling, if you think about it. And it would be great, and we would solve the mystery. What's in the mystery? It's, it's, it's me in the bed, dead, of like a drug overdose.

• 3:30:51Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:51David Sims?

  I can't escape, you know, like, it's like, it's like, that's the Lynch thing of like, I've made it to the end of my dream. I've made it to the end of my dream. Oh, God, I'm back where I died, essentially.

• 3:31:01Griffin Newman?

  Right.

• 3:31:01David Sims?

  Because the end of this movie, you know, it's like, we, the scenes we talked about, and then the party, its own kind of Hollywood nightmare of like, you're dolled up, you look good. No one at this party wants to fucking talk to you.

• 3:31:10Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:31:10David Sims?

  Everyone's doing better than you, right?

• 3:31:12Griffin Newman?

  Which I think is the absolute core base reality of what drives most people insane, pursuing. A life in show business is it's actually never enough.

• 3:31:23Speaker 03

  And one thing that I think that this last part of the movie is hitting so many specific pieces of pain. You know, that that that occurred in the first two thirds of the movie. You know, like they they popped, they happened, the impotence, um, the abuse at the at the audition, like the um, uh, Winkies. You know, there's just, there's all these kind of violent moments.

• 3:31:44David Sims?

  Right.

• 3:31:44Speaker 03

  But the, uh, there is this, when I saw the movie, um, again, later in my twenties, when I was in Los Angeles, there was this like, what I identified, having experienced it then, was there is a really specific, almost exquisite type of of of pain, being in such close proximity to it.

• 3:32:08David Sims?

  Right, these people who are making it, they're making the movies, they're so famous, they're so successful.

• 3:32:13Speaker 03

  And I'm here for some reason, I feel displaced, I don't have my.

• 3:32:17David Sims?

  I'm in a dress, I even look good, but it doesn't matter, right.

• 3:32:19Speaker 03

  Like with Rita, I don't have my memory, I'm making up my personality as we go along. My North Star is this person I I'm maniacally obsessed with.

• 3:32:28Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:28Speaker 03

  You know, there's no, there's no, um, there's no way to anchor yourself in those situations.

• 3:32:35Griffin Newman?

  Year of me trying to audition and not getting callbacks, I was less miserable than when I had transcended to the point where I was testing for stuff but not getting the part.

• 3:32:45David Sims?

  Right, right, right.

• 3:32:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:32:46Griffin Newman?

  And everyone else was like, well, you're doing well, you're getting further along. Progress is being made and I'm like, no, the fact that I'm closer makes it harder.

• 3:32:53David Sims?

  Speak, Ben.

• 3:32:54Speaker 04

  Isn't it the dinner party where, uh, the accident takes place?

• 3:32:59David Sims?

  Well, like, one, you mean like.

• 3:33:02Speaker 04

  Like where she gets dropped off.

• 3:33:04David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:33:04Speaker 04

  Is kind of where we start.

• 3:33:06David Sims?

  Yeah, yeah. After the horrible dinner party, it's just her at Winkies with Mark Pellegrino and him saying like, when I do it, you're gonna get this blue key. And then we just go to the back of the diner, the hobo is there, which is in the pilot. That is in the pilot, just a shot of the hobo sitting behind the diner. So clearly it was this idea that, you know, Lynch had.

• 3:33:28Griffin Newman?

  And he was like, I'll get to an episode 20 and insta. That had to add the earlier thing to set it up.

• 3:33:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:33:33David Sims?

  Exactly.

• 3:33:34Griffin Newman?

  Why?

• 3:33:34David Sims?

  And, um, and the, but then this is not in the pilot, which is then the hobo puts down the blue box. And little goblin, old people run out of it.

• 3:33:43Griffin Newman?

  Excuse me, you said that incorrectly. Gublin.

• 3:33:46David Sims?

  Gublin. People run out of it going. And then they charge her.

• 3:33:52Griffin Newman?

  Like they're the fucking borrowers.

• 3:33:54David Sims?

  They're borrowers, but then they're full size. And then she shoots herself and she's dead and.

• 3:33:59Speaker 03

  But for whatever reason, when I saw it, and I, again, I'm just trying to like, you know, conjure that feeling. The, the old people were so fucking scary.

• 3:34:09David Sims?

  They're scary.

• 3:34:10Speaker 03

  I mean, it was like, I mean, the top scariest things in this movie are like Gublin and, and, and the small old people.

• 3:34:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:34:18Speaker 03

  And I, I don't know why. I mean, I don't even know if they represent anything. It was just so, so horrible. And, um.

• 3:34:27Griffin Newman?

  Well, part of it is, I can't make sense of this.

• 3:34:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:34:30Griffin Newman?

  It's terrifying how unknown it is.

• 3:34:32Speaker 04

  Right. It's really deranged to see old people act this way and smile and look like, like they could hurt you.

• 3:34:41David Sims?

  I think it's why it speaks to so many people who watch the movie is like, right? The original horrible thing, whatever it is, right? It's something like that, like this, it's something so unspeakable that they represent. It's not just like guilt of like, oh, my fucking shitty life in Hollywood. It's like, no, this is all the way down.

• 3:35:00Speaker 03

  This is some sort of, yeah, this is actually, the word that's coming to mind is like demonic. Like this is demonic. This is like, it's all, it's, um, I did want to come back to the, I know that we were like, uh, Mark, uh, Pellegrino's too hot to be a hitman. And then, and then he leaves the key. And I guess my, if there were one part of the movie I don't buy. It's that part. And I wanted to ask you guys, like, why do I feel that way?

• 3:35:25David Sims?

  It feels dream like it's too clean. A hitman, a blue key, like, right? Does it feel a little obvious that it's like?

• 3:35:32Speaker 03

  They're about.

• 3:35:33David Sims?

  The blue key is kind of looped up for you.

• 3:35:35Speaker 03

  They're about to, like, yeah, it's like.

• 3:35:37Griffin Newman?

  It's, is it too neat?

• 3:35:39David Sims?

  Because it's one of Lynch's clues. Who gives a key and why?

• 3:35:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:35:42David Sims?

  That's right. It's, I feel like he sat down for 10 minutes. He was like, uh, lampshade.

• 3:35:46Speaker 03

  Lampshade, key, uh, Sylvia North story. I, I think also it's, it just feels so.

• 3:35:55Speaker 03

  There's this abruptness to it that seems almost like it's trying to shift gears into like, you know, like I'll run up to the end of the movie and the suicide.

• 3:36:07Griffin Newman?

  Well, he's like literally shifting gears on the notion of how this story was going to be told.

• 3:36:11Speaker 03

  Yes, and Camilla and Kesher are about to announce something. And I think it's really interesting that they don't. It's like we.

• 3:36:18David Sims?

  It's gonna be they're getting married. One assumes.

• 3:36:19Speaker 03

  One assumes, although this time when I was watching it, I thought they were pregnant. Yeah.

• 3:36:23Griffin Newman?

  That was my read.

• 3:36:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. I also love when she kisses the girl.

• 3:36:26David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:36:26Speaker 03

  Do we want to talk about that or we don't care?

• 3:36:28David Sims?

  I mean, an iconic image, like, I feel like that was a still image that was used all the time.

• 3:36:34Speaker 04

  What's the dynamics, though? That's what I can't figure out.

• 3:36:37Griffin Newman?

  But I think it's all about the transference of her making eye contact with Melissa Leo on the set of the audition.

• 3:36:42David Sims?

  If it was Melissa Leo, that would rock.

• 3:36:44Speaker 03

  God, that would be cool.

• 3:36:45David Sims?

  Leo was the girl.

• 3:36:46Griffin Newman?

  Let's consider.

• 3:36:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, what if, wait a minute.

• 3:36:48Griffin Newman?

  Let's consider.

• 3:36:49David Sims?

  And Kesher's like, this is crazy. I love Melissa Leo too, but the woman's a character actress. She doesn't read for Sylvia Norris.

• 3:36:56Speaker 03

  But do you guys agree that, that, wait a minute, hold on, though. Do we agree that Melissa Leo did have a moment?

• 3:37:03David Sims?

  Yes, she did.

• 3:37:04Speaker 03

  Wasn't there a time where she was the girl and she was pushed, pushed, pushed?

• 3:37:07Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, before second act is character actress.

• 3:37:11Speaker 03

  But.

• 3:37:12David Sims?

  All right, I'm sorry, we have to move on. I'm not doing this.

• 3:37:15Griffin Newman?

  It's that moment where she locks eye contact. It's like, what is the trade off here?

• 3:37:18David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:37:19Griffin Newman?

  I could be her with the part, but then does she end up with the person I want to be with?

• 3:37:24Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:37:25Griffin Newman?

  Whether that's literal or the idea, it's like, what's the give and take of every decision, every opportunity?

• 3:37:30Speaker 03

  I agree with Ben. It's like, I don't know what the dynamics are, but the, again, what I felt was the, was the transference.

• 3:37:38David Sims?

  Yes.

• 3:37:38Speaker 03

  I don't know if it was the transference of, it just felt like there was some sort of movement from, uh, that she, she's being left behind in so, uh, in so many different ways, but that cemented it.

• 3:37:51Griffin Newman?

  Her being part of a throuple that New York Magazine will write a profile on.

• 3:37:55David Sims?

  But.

• 3:37:56Speaker 03

  And then we see the cowboy.

• 3:37:57David Sims?

  But it is, yeah, we just see the cowboy, but it is also, I just feel like he so is nailing this scene of like, right, I'm here, nobody wants me here.

• 3:38:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:38:04David Sims?

  Like the way Coco talks to her.

• 3:38:06Griffin Newman?

  This was the room you wanted to be in and it sucked.

• 3:38:08David Sims?

  And it's like, this is the worst.

• 3:38:09Speaker 03

  And nobody wants you here. And like, there's this, um, I love that she's late, like that, that.

• 3:38:14Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, I like that too. I think that shows a lot of like integrity.

• 3:38:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, she was just like, I'm gonna fucking.

• 3:38:20David Sims?

  David is clear.

• 3:38:21Griffin Newman?

  I was looking for somebody to throw at you.

• 3:38:24David Sims?

  I was looking for somebody to throw at you.

• 3:38:25Griffin Newman?

  He's loading a gun?

• 3:38:27David Sims?

  I want to say that after the suicide, um, and the smoke rising from the bed, which is such an amazing just piece of imagery.

• 3:38:34Speaker 03

  Oh, I agree. Like, what a bizarre kind of theatrical moment.

• 3:38:38David Sims?

  Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you have this image that makes me.

• 3:38:42Speaker 03

  By the way, it reminds me of Silencio.

• 3:38:44David Sims?

  Well, right, we're entering Silencio.

• 3:38:47Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:38:47David Sims?

  Sort of, in that like the last shot will be the blue lady, the blue haired lady.

• 3:38:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:38:50David Sims?

  Uh, Marge, I call her.

• 3:38:53Speaker 03

  As you should.

• 3:38:53David Sims?

  But this image that kind of makes me well up, uh, which is this like bleached out, uh, slow motion shot of them in their wigs, smiling in the car, right? Like this kind of, but it's like, it's their dream.

• 3:39:08Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:39:08David Sims?

  And now it's like so whatever, like lost or it's like been dreamed over a million times or abstracted or whatever. And it's sort of like fading away and it just speaks to everything he's thinking about, about Hollywood and like.

• 3:39:24Griffin Newman?

  And also about what it feels like when you lose your keys. That's.

• 3:39:28David Sims?

  And then she just never gets her keys back and it's the worst part of the movie.

• 3:39:33Griffin Newman?

  And doesn't that really grind your gears?

• 3:39:34David Sims?

  And then, uh, the blue haired lady says Silencio, which is Spanish for silence. And what she's telling everyone is.

• 3:39:40Griffin Newman?

  Right. Huge Helen Burstyn energy.

• 3:39:44David Sims?

  And then, uh, right. And then the, uh, credits start rolling and the, uh, audience all stands up and goes, well, we understood that. That made sense. Let's get out of here.

• 3:39:51Griffin Newman?

  Clean.

• 3:39:52Speaker 03

  Or you go and take ecstasy.

• 3:39:53David Sims?

  When I go to fucking Five Guys. Wait, so you hadn't taken it yet?

• 3:39:56Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 3:39:57Griffin Newman?

  Well, this is what's interesting is the experience you're describing is its own weird Mulholland Drive loop of, did you take it before and watch the movie on it or did you take it afterwards as a response?

• 3:40:07David Sims?

  No, you take it before a movie, then you're just to your like seatmate, you're gonna be like, hey.

• 3:40:11Griffin Newman?

  Well, I don't know. Maybe the first act or the dream or maybe the last act is the dream. Who knows? Spring Breakers really.

• 3:40:16David Sims?

  Fucking hit.

• 3:40:17Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, it does.

• 3:40:19David Sims?

  When I was impaired, let's play the box.

• 3:40:22Griffin Newman?

  Leslie had one final point she was about to make.

• 3:40:24Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 3:40:24Griffin Newman?

  You were about to say something.

• 3:40:25Speaker 03

  No, I was just gonna say that I couldn't remember. I just, I think.

• 3:40:28Griffin Newman?

  That feels appropriate.

• 3:40:29Speaker 03

  I mean, I guess maybe I would just, the only thing I might still say is like to, to wrap up this incredible conversation is like, I just, I was fundamentally changed by this movie. It instantly entered my top 10. I, I couldn't stop thinking about it for, for days, weeks. I, I, again, it was my first David Lynch movie and I feel like it actually bizarrely is a good entry point if anyone listening to this.

• 3:40:56David Sims?

  I think absolutely.

• 3:40:57Griffin Newman?

  Certainly was for a whole generation.

• 3:40:58David Sims?

  Sort of the question I asked on Blue Velvet. It's like, right, that and Mulholland Drive, those are the two kind of like David Lynch-er movies, like take or pick.

• 3:41:06Griffin Newman?

  Right, 15 years apart. Those were two entry points.

• 3:41:09Speaker 03

  Agreed, yeah. Or, or Twin Peaks.

• 3:41:12David Sims?

  But that's.

• 3:41:12Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, and I think Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks are paired and this and Twin Peaks, The Return are paired.

• 3:41:17Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 3:41:18Griffin Newman?

  The eras.

• 3:41:19Speaker 03

  I love The Return, my god. What a fucking.

• 3:41:21David Sims?

  You haven't gotten to it yet, right?

• 3:41:22Griffin Newman?

  No.

• 3:41:23Speaker 03

  Well, I love the, I, I love the fact that The Return is a, this is like, this is why I love David Lynch. The Return is an unrecapable show.

• 3:41:32David Sims?

  It sure is.

• 3:41:33Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean?

• 3:41:33David Sims?

  It was very funny to watch the TV recap economy try and.

• 3:41:37Speaker 03

  Completely break down.

• 3:41:39David Sims?

  Fail to deal with The Return. Being like, we can do like kind of the Westworld theories thing with this thing and then immediately being like, oh, maybe, maybe we can't.

• 3:41:45Griffin Newman?

  And god, they're gonna be so sour when we do four podcast episodes on it and recap it perfectly.

• 3:41:50Speaker 03

  I can't wait.

• 3:41:51David Sims?

  Don't worry, I'm, I'm, we're gonna recap it so perfectly.

• 3:41:53Speaker 03

  But I do feel like we live in, in, in this like consuming, you know, content moment era.

• 3:41:59Griffin Newman?

  The tapes economy.

• 3:42:00Speaker 03

  Where they, where, where you, you, you basically can just read the recaps instead of watching the episodes.

• 3:42:07David Sims?

  But not Twin Peaks, The Return.

• 3:42:08Speaker 03

  But not, but not.

• 3:42:09David Sims?

  But, but the thing with Twin Peaks, The Return is it is like the back half of Mulholland Drive to Twin Peaks, right? Where it's like David Lynch is like, oh, you want me to do more? And people are like, yeah, can it be kind of the same when he's like, no.

• 3:42:20Griffin Newman?

  Absolutely not.

• 3:42:21David Sims?

  But I have plenty of ideas.

• 3:42:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42:24David Sims?

  And the same people will be in it, so. That make you happy?

• 3:42:27Griffin Newman?

  We are so excited to say that this week's box office game is brought to you by our friends at Regal. With the Regal Unlimited program, it's an all you can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. See any standard 2D movie anytime with no blackout dates or restrictions. Here's what you should do. Follow the link in the show notes or go to the Regal app, click the unlimited banner, and then follow the instructions to sign up and enter promo code BLANKCHECK when prompted to receive your 10% discount on your first three months. So box office game, this opens number one, $112 million opening weekend.

• 3:42:59David Sims?

  October 12th, 2001, this is opening limited on 66 screens, number 14 of the box office. Number one of the box office is an Oscar winner from this year, Griffin. It's number one for the second week in a row.

• 3:43:11Griffin Newman?

  It won a major Oscar?

• 3:43:13David Sims?

  It did.

• 3:43:15Griffin Newman?

  It's not Beautiful Mind, that hasn't gone wide yet.

• 3:43:18Speaker 03

  How does he fucking know this?

• 3:43:20Griffin Newman?

  It won, it's, well, Training Day would have been.

• 3:43:23David Sims?

  It's Training Day.

• 3:43:24Speaker 03

  It's still, wow.

• 3:43:27David Sims?

  It's the second week, it's the second week, October 12th, 2001, it's in its second week, staying at number one.

• 3:43:32Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:43:34David Sims?

  A great, you know, fun movie that I think is a bit of a breakout, you know, surprise for a dark movie like that.

• 3:43:41Griffin Newman?

  Always incorrectly, incorrectly thinks that movie came out in September because it was supposed to, got pushed back only like two weeks because of 9/11 because they were like, maybe let people rebound.

• 3:43:52Speaker 03

  But guys, I forgot this was in the fucking wake up, oh my god. You know, because I was there, you know, I was like five blocks away. I lived in the financial district when that happened. It was fucking insane. Talk about trauma. But it was that weird echoey period where everything was so.

• 3:44:10Griffin Newman?

  In a movie like this that like premieres at the Cannes Film Festival in May, and then comes out in theaters in October, and you're like, different realities.

• 3:44:19Speaker 03

  This is two different, I mean, honestly, it's kind of perfect. I mean, it just, it is the perfect kind of thing to consume where you're like, I want my attention, I want, I want rapt attention on something.

• 3:44:31Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:44:31Speaker 03

  And I don't want it to be a straightforward narrative in any way.

• 3:44:34Griffin Newman?

  There was a Training Day billboard on the West Side Highway that my, we would drive by every day when my dad drove my siblings and I to school that said like, whatever, September 17th. And I saw it for so many months that in my brain, I'm like, that movie came out in September.

• 3:44:46David Sims?

  This is our longest episode ever, just to have fun. Right? I mean, no question.

• 3:44:50Griffin Newman?

  He fucking did it.

• 3:44:53David Sims?

  All right, we gotta wrap up.

• 3:44:54Griffin Newman?

  Number two at the box office.

• 3:44:55David Sims?

  I'm so hungry.

• 3:44:56Griffin Newman?

  I am too. I need to piece so hard.

• 3:44:57Speaker 03

  Alex is gonna be so mad that I trash him every time I come here.

• 3:45:01Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:45:01David Sims?

  Um, number two at the box office is new this week, Griffin. I feel like it's a film you liked at the time. It's a bit of a-

• 3:45:06Griffin Newman?

  And I don't like it now?

• 3:45:07David Sims?

  I don't know how you feel about it now. I just feel like you were kind of riding for it. It was a bit of an underperformer.

• 3:45:13Griffin Newman?

  Huh.

• 3:45:13David Sims?

  Big director, big actors.

• 3:45:15Griffin Newman?

  Which you're always rude to. That movie's solid.

• 3:45:17David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:45:18Griffin Newman?

  It's got great stuff in it.

• 3:45:19David Sims?

  I still have the 2001 Oscar watcher.

• 3:45:22Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Barry Levinson.

• 3:45:23Speaker 03

  Barry Levinson.

• 3:45:24David Sims?

  I still have the 2000 Oscar watcher thing, like, back then, 2001.

• 3:45:28Griffin Newman?

  It didn't have the juice. It didn't make it.

• 3:45:29David Sims?

  That thing's gonna be huge. And instead it was like, okay.

• 3:45:31Speaker 03

  This is Billy Bob Thornton?

• 3:45:33David Sims?

  Yep, and Bruce Willis and Kate Blanchett.

• 3:45:35Griffin Newman?

  Three great performances, all three of them.

• 3:45:38David Sims?

  Number-

• 3:45:39Griffin Newman?

  Pretty excellent, that film.

• 3:45:40David Sims?

  But a film that slightly underperforms.

• 3:45:42Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:45:42David Sims?

  Number three at the box office is a film I wonder if Jan Ben Hozle saw. I'm not sure if he did. It's almost insulting for me to ask that question. It is a comedy film.

• 3:45:53Griffin Newman?

  Okay.

• 3:45:53David Sims?

  Starring a member of the television show Saturday Night Live.

• 3:45:56Griffin Newman?

  Ah.

• 3:45:59Griffin Newman?

  In October 2001? It's not, is it-

• 3:46:01David Sims?

  A time when people need to laugh.

• 3:46:02Griffin Newman?

  It is not an SNL spinoff movie.

• 3:46:04David Sims?

  It is not.

• 3:46:06Griffin Newman?

  But it starred, they were a cast member at this moment?

• 3:46:08David Sims?

  That's a good question.

• 3:46:09Griffin Newman?

  It's not Corky Romano.

• 3:46:10David Sims?

  Yes, it was, and yes, it is. Chris Catan is Corky Romano.

• 3:46:15Griffin Newman?

  Rude!

• 3:46:16Speaker 03

  You guys want some cookies?

• 3:46:18David Sims?

  I'm kind of amazed that Corky Romano opened to nine million dollars. I'm like, that's a lot of money for Corky Romano.

• 3:46:24Griffin Newman?

  We were a proper country once.

• 3:46:25Speaker 03

  Wait, when was Zoolander at this point?

• 3:46:27David Sims?

  Zoolander had come out, uh, three weeks ago.

• 3:46:30Speaker 03

  It's already was.

• 3:46:30Griffin Newman?

  It sank like a stone. It came out last week in September and it's already out.

• 3:46:34David Sims?

  It's, it's at number seven.

• 3:46:35Speaker 03

  It did?

• 3:46:36Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:46:36Speaker 03

  That's all we could talk about?

• 3:46:37Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:46:38Speaker 03

  All we talked about was Zoolander. I didn't realize it tanked.

• 3:46:40Griffin Newman?

  Here in New York City, it was the center of the universe and bombed everywhere else. Truly, I think like-

• 3:46:45David Sims?

  That's sort of true, yes.

• 3:46:46Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:46:46David Sims?

  And America was definitely not ready for Zoolander right then.

• 3:46:49Griffin Newman?

  But my friends and I were quoting it obsessively. We all went to go see it after school on the weekend. Donnie Darko comes out- August?

• 3:46:56Speaker 03

  I thought it, oh, I thought it was fall.

• 3:46:58David Sims?

  I mean, Donnie Darko also, and I believe Donnie Darko like literally came out on like September 11th, basically.

• 3:47:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:47:05David Sims?

  And I might be wrong, though.

• 3:47:06Griffin Newman?

  But in another one that like bonded in theaters, but for a collection of people, it was like, well, this is clearly the most important.

• 3:47:12Speaker 03

  Instant cult, yeah.

• 3:47:13Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:13David Sims?

  Uh, number four at the box office is a rom-com that I've just never liked.

• 3:47:17Griffin Newman?

  Serendipity, you're always, much like Bandit's rude to.

• 3:47:21David Sims?

  I just don't like it.

• 3:47:22Speaker 03

  I agree. It's a great, it's a bummer.

• 3:47:25Griffin Newman?

  I don't think it's bad.

• 3:47:26Speaker 03

  I don't want to argue it's good, but I don't think it's bad. That's the thing, it's, that's what it is. It's tired Cusack.

• 3:47:33David Sims?

  He's good at playing mean Gen Xer, and they use it so well, right, in the High Fidelities of the World or whatever. By Serendipity, you're like, he hates this, like.

• 3:47:41Speaker 03

  But yeah, as he's coming off, and it's, he's coming off Malkovich, like, he's coming off like this, oh, cool, I mean, maybe Lloyd Dobler can do whatever, you know? And then he just goes straight.

• 3:47:52Griffin Newman?

  And High Fidelity's 2000, and then 2001 is Serendipity and America's Sweethearts, and it's like, this guy has fucking.

• 3:47:57Speaker 03

  My sister loves American Sweethearts.

• 3:47:59Griffin Newman?

  Listen to the cowboy.

• 3:48:00Speaker 03

  He listened to the cowboy.

• 3:48:01David Sims?

  The cowboy was like, sometimes there's a buggy and it's called American Sweethearts.

• 3:48:06Speaker 03

  Jesus Christ.

• 3:48:07David Sims?

  Uh, at least he's not in Corky Ramona, that's what I would tell him. Uh, number five at the box office is a pretty solid thriller hit, uh, famous for a line from the trailer.

• 3:48:18Speaker 03

  I'll never tell.

• 3:48:20David Sims?

  Don't say a word.

• 3:48:20Griffin Newman?

  Opened again, Zoolander, fucking crushed it at the box.

• 3:48:23David Sims?

  She'll never tell.

• 3:48:24Griffin Newman?

  People thought Zoolander was going to do well.

• 3:48:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:48:27David Sims?

  Uh, number six is Iron Monkey, the Hong Kong martial arts film with Donnie Yen, uh, which Miramax is putting out.

• 3:48:34Speaker 03

  Oh, right, that's their year, that's their, that's their kind of like, uh, let's get the Crouching Tiger thing going.

• 3:48:40David Sims?

  Anything we can get in there to make a little bit of money.

• 3:48:42Griffin Newman?

  Tarantino is putting a stamp on movies from four years ago and releasing them wide.

• 3:48:45Speaker 03

  Right, hero, yeah, yeah, yeah, got it.

• 3:48:46David Sims?

  Uh, you've got Zoolander, you've got, um, Joy Ride, which is pretty fun, the, uh, Paul Walker.

• 3:48:54Griffin Newman?

  I did a Photoshop of Deadpool. Faces on the poster.

• 3:48:56David Sims?

  Sure.

• 3:48:57Griffin Newman?

  Everyone laughed.

• 3:48:58David Sims?

  Uh, number nine, you've got to film.

• 3:48:59Griffin Newman?

  Remember?

• 3:48:59David Sims?

  Griffin saw, uh, Max Keble's Big Move.

• 3:49:03Griffin Newman?

  You know what? I didn't.

• 3:49:05David Sims?

  I guess you were maybe a little too old for it, right?

• 3:49:08Griffin Newman?

  I'd say a little too sophisticated.

• 3:49:10David Sims?

  Of course.

• 3:49:10Griffin Newman?

  I just have taste. Did I see Spy Kids three times in theaters this same year?

• 3:49:14David Sims?

  No, Spy Kids is good.

• 3:49:15Speaker 04

  And Corky Romano? Are you serious?

• 3:49:17Griffin Newman?

  I saw Corky Romano.

• 3:49:18Speaker 04

  Me, Corky Romano?

• 3:49:19Griffin Newman?

  Yeah, that's actually.

• 3:49:20Speaker 04

  What about me says Corky Romano?

• 3:49:22David Sims?

  You've seen so many bullshit movies with SNL guys in that. That's one of them.

• 3:49:26Speaker 04

  All right, I guess you have a point.

• 3:49:28David Sims?

  Did you see the one where Jamie Kennedy, who I know is not a SNL guy?

• 3:49:30Griffin Newman?

  Malibu's Most Wanted?

• 3:49:31David Sims?

  Yeah, that one, Malibu's Most Wanted?

• 3:49:34Griffin Newman?

  Yeah. That face says, yeah.

• 3:49:37David Sims?

  How much worse is Corky Romano?

• 3:49:39Griffin Newman?

  Ben, Ben?

• 3:49:40Speaker 04

  Fine, I saw it.

• 3:49:41Griffin Newman?

  Ben, I love you. And I want to say that I don't mean this in a pejorative way at all.

• 3:49:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 3:49:47Griffin Newman?

  You would actually love Corky Romano. If you watched it tonight, you would enjoy it.

• 3:49:51Speaker 03

  I, I don't know if I've ever met anyone that has the taste that Ben has.

• 3:49:57David Sims?

  That's why he's the secret sauce.

• 3:49:59Griffin Newman?

  It's, he's the whole thing.

• 3:50:00Speaker 03

  Not once.

• 3:50:01David Sims?

  He's the fucking brick and mortar.

• 3:50:02Griffin Newman?

  He's the fucking Silencio scene.

• 3:50:05Griffin Newman?

  You're just like, I'm never gonna totally understand it.

• 3:50:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:50:08Griffin Newman?

  How is he offended by you assuming he likes Corky Romano?

• 3:50:11Speaker 03

  It's like, it is Silencio scene, actually.

• 3:50:13Griffin Newman?

  That doesn't track with what I'm saying, but there is an internal logic and it's honest.

• 3:50:16David Sims?

  We started this episode at 10 a.m.

• 3:50:17Speaker 03

  That's, that's the thing. It is the Silencio scene because.

• 3:50:19Griffin Newman?

  10 a.m. on.

• 3:50:20Speaker 03

  Because it doesn't make any sense.

• 3:50:22Griffin Newman?

  Friday, now it's Sunday.

• 3:50:23Speaker 03

  But it's the main thing you take away.

• 3:50:24Griffin Newman?

  Yes.

• 3:50:25Speaker 03

  It's the main thing you take away.

• 3:50:26David Sims?

  Number 10 of the box office is Hearts in Atlantis.

• 3:50:29Speaker 03

  Jesus.

• 3:50:29Griffin Newman?

  A movie that eats farts.

• 3:50:33David Sims?

  It's the Shine Guy directing Anthony Hopkins.

• 3:50:35Griffin Newman?

  I remember convincing three friends. We should go see this.

• 3:50:38Speaker 03

  The Shine Guy.

• 3:50:39Griffin Newman?

  I hear there's a lot of Oscar buzz and they never let me live it down.

• 3:50:42David Sims?

  They shouldn't have, honestly.

• 3:50:43Griffin Newman?

  That's not getting shit.

• 3:50:44David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:50:45Griffin Newman?

  That thing is fucking goose egging. Even in a light year, Hopkins isn't getting a tip of that.

• 3:50:52David Sims?

  Thank you for joining us on Blank Check to discuss.

• 3:50:53Speaker 03

  You're so, oh my god. I mean, this was a absolute pleasure.

• 3:50:57David Sims?

  I'm really sorry.

• 3:50:58Speaker 03

  I can't wait. I can't wait. I was settled and I felt very bad.

• 3:51:02Griffin Newman?

  I will say, your body language is relaxed.

• 3:51:04Speaker 03

  I'm very relaxed. I feel, I feel, I felt bad about Zodiac.

• 3:51:08Griffin Newman?

  Hey.

• 3:51:08Speaker 03

  I felt like we could have dug deeper. I made a commitment to myself and I broke the record.

• 3:51:13David Sims?

  Here's the thing about Mulholland Drive. We could still keep digging. There's plenty to dig.

• 3:51:16Speaker 03

  That's the thing. I was like, I could talk about this for another hour.

• 3:51:20Griffin Newman?

  And you know what?

• 3:51:20Speaker 03

  Except we've been talking about it for four hours, I think.

• 3:51:22Griffin Newman?

  I guarantee a bunch of listeners are gonna complain. We didn't go 20 minutes longer.

• 3:51:26David Sims?

  Didn't even, didn't even talk about. I wonder. I'm actually, you're right, and I'm trying to think what it will be.

• 3:51:31Speaker 03

  Well, what is the thing that we didn't talk about?

• 3:51:34David Sims?

  It doesn't matter. We can talk about it later.

• 3:51:36Griffin Newman?

  We'll talk about not talking about it later.

• 3:51:37David Sims?

  Yes.

• 3:51:38Griffin Newman?

  Uh, Leslie, Acolyte, Disney Plus.

• 3:51:41Speaker 03

  Right, right. Disney Plus.

• 3:51:42David Sims?

  Uh, you have a play off.

• 3:51:44Speaker 03

  I have a play on Broadway. I have a play.

• 3:51:46David Sims?

  When does it start?

• 3:51:47Speaker 03

  It's, um, it's called Cult of Love, and, uh, we start rehearsals in October. I'm not exactly sure of our, our preview start. I think it's mid-December.

• 3:51:56David Sims?

  Okay, so when this is posting, it's starting in about a month. Go buy your tickets now at the Helen Hayes.

• 3:52:00Speaker 03

  That's right. Second, second stage, Helen Hayes. Come, it'll be fun. There's music.

• 3:52:06David Sims?

  As I told you.

• 3:52:07Speaker 03

  Not a musical, but has music.

• 3:52:08David Sims?

  As I told you, I saw Bachelorette when the second stage put it on Uptown many years ago.

• 3:52:12Speaker 03

  That's right, you did.

• 3:52:13David Sims?

  And now you're back with the second stage. That's exciting.

• 3:52:15Griffin Newman?

  Yeah.

• 3:52:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I haven't done theater in like, I want to say, eight years.

• 3:52:19Griffin Newman?

  Wild.

• 3:52:19Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I'm really excited to get back into it.

• 3:52:22Griffin Newman?

  I'm so excited, and, uh.

• 3:52:23Speaker 03

  Thank you both for having me again.

• 3:52:25Griffin Newman?

  So great.

• 3:52:25David Sims?

  Come back anytime.

• 3:52:26Griffin Newman?

  We, we, I said this to you before we recorded, but we had marked this episode as maybe this one guestless, maybe this is too big, maybe we don't need a guest. And we had been wanting to find someone to have you back on for, and it was like, let's just throw one flyer and see if she has any interest in doing this.

• 3:52:41Speaker 03

  And I leapt.

• 3:52:41Griffin Newman?

  If she wants to do it, we'd have a guest on. But it was truly, we didn't offer it to anyone else. We had, we had put it behind bars.

• 3:52:49Speaker 03

  I leapt at the chance. I, I of course wanted to come back. I had such a good time on Zodiac. I was very sad that it was only two and a half hours.

• 3:52:56Griffin Newman?

  So rude that you only gave us two hours and 45 minutes that time.

• 3:52:59Speaker 03

  And I was thinking, you know, I want to come back, but I, I, it's hard to top Zodiac. I was like, there's, it would have to be a movie that's also in my top 10, and so.

• 3:53:08Griffin Newman?

  Next time we'll have you on for Corky Armando. That's, you'll wait until.

• 3:53:12David Sims?

  Perfect.

• 3:53:13Griffin Newman?

  We do Corky. When Ben chooses it, because he's about to watch it and fall in fucking love.

• 3:53:18Speaker 03

  I didn't realize that there's a timer behind me. It's, we are hitting four hours.

• 3:53:22Griffin Newman?

  Design that we put it behind the guest heads, so we're not making them self-conscious. Thank you for being here. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Bardi for helping to produce this show. Thank you to AJ McKeon for editing, being our production coordinator, Joe Bowen, Ty Reynolds for our artwork, Lay Montgomery for our theme song. Ben is rubbing his head like he's fucking Balthazar.

• 3:53:42David Sims?

  Just keep going, Griffin. Jesus.

• 3:53:45Griffin Newman?

  JJ Birch for our research. Go Blank Check Pod dot com for links to some real nerdy shit, including our Patreon Blank Check special features. We do franchise commentaries. I think right now we're doing Andrew Lloyd Webber finishing up Tabletop Games, something like that. We're recording this episode 15 years in advance and we've been here for so fucking long. Tune in next week for Inland Empire, correct?

• 3:54:06David Sims?

  Yeah.

• 3:54:07Griffin Newman?

  And as always, Silencio. There I go. This is the girl.

• 3:54:20David Sims?

  To get back to this sort of liminal thing.

• 3:54:22Speaker 03

  Sorry, I'm on my phone. I just canceling something.

• 3:54:24David Sims?

  Please cancel.

• 3:54:25Griffin Newman?

  Hell, yeah.

• 3:54:26Speaker 03

  I'm just canceling something that's happening to us.

• 3:54:28Griffin Newman?

  Great.

• 3:54:30David Sims?

  We will be done, but you do you.

• 3:54:32Speaker 03

  I need to get home and I need to. So I apologize for being on my phone.

• 3:54:35Griffin Newman?

  And I'm just quickly, I'm gonna check my phone because I have a flight a week from now and I'm gonna push that back.

• 3:54:39Speaker 03

  Just keep going. Just keep going and I'm gonna jump back in.

• 3:54:41Griffin Newman?

  I'm gonna push back the flight.