#1132 Tim Draper On Elon Musk, Tesla, Bitcoin & The Future Of The U.S.

Tim Draper is a venture capitalist at Draper Associates, creator of "Viral Marketing", and is a Bitcoin believer. Tim has seed funded Tesla, Space-X, Twitch, Coinbase, Hotmail, Skype, and many others. In this conversation, we discuss innovative technology, being early on multiple unicorn companies, the future hope of Bitcoin and why Tim believes in it so much, governments trusting their citizens, and Tim's belief in personal freedoms. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= The number one name in NFT domains and the world’s most powerful wallet are teaming up to bring something new to the crypto and Web3 world: Either sign up for a free blockchain.wallet or visit Unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today. ======================= OKX is the world's most powerful crypto exchange and is now the second largest in terms of volumes. It offers a comprehensive trading platform with over 730 spot trading pairs, 280 derivatives markets, and 1000 options markets. It processes 400,000 requests per second with 30 gigabyte per second data throughput and 99.95% uptime. For pro and institutional traders, they’ve just launched the OKX Liquid Marketplace, an on-demand liquidity network with multiple brokers where you can instantly trade spot, derivatives, and multi-leg structures at the price you want while bypassing the order book. They offer up to a 50% discount now. Go to OKX.com and try it now. ======================= With a Messari Pro subscription, you gain access to exclusive industry-leading long-form daily research reports, daily crypto news & insights in your inbox, advanced asset screeners, curated sets of charts and metrics and so much more. Try Messari Pro today! Get up to 25% off their Messari Pro membership by visiting www.messari.io/pro and entering promo code "POMP" at checkout. ======================= Arculus is the next generation crypto & NFT cold storage wallet that combines one of the world’s strongest security protocols with the easiest to use form factor and app. Arculus requires 3-Factor Authentication to ensure only you have access to your digital assets – something you know – a PIN, something you have – the Arculus Key Card, and biometrics. Learn more and buy it now on getarculus.com. Use promo code POMP to save 15%. Remember, with Arculus, it’s your keys, your crypto. ======================= This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. The Eight Sleep Pod is a tech layer that fits onto your mattress like a fitted sheet. The Pod dynamically cools and heats each side of the bed, to maintain the optimal sleeping temperature for what your body needs. With the Pod, you can start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. The result: Clinical data shows that Eight Sleep users experience up to 34% more deep sleep. Go to eightsleep.com/pomp for exclusive holiday savings and ring in the most wonderful time of night. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Tim Draper is a venture capitalist at Draper Associates. He's the creator of viral marketing and he is a Bitcoin believer. Tim has seed funded Tesla, SpaceX, Twitch, Coinbase, Hotmail, Skype, Baidu, and many, many others. In this conversation, we talk about innovative technology, Bitcoins' rise, and the future promise of the technology, and why Tim believes so much in governments trusting their citizens and installing the idea of freedom. I really enjoyed this conversation with Tim, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. After you get done listening to this episode, jump on Twitter and let us know what you agreed with, what you disagree with,

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  what you liked and what you didn't like. We both appreciate the feedback, and it helps us get a good laugh as to what you thought about this episode. Alright, here is my conversation with Tim Draper. This episode is brought to you by LMAX Digital, the number one institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest pool of liquidity, and they have 100% uptime track record through all the volatility spikes. LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology means that LMAX Digital is the market-leading solution for institutions across crypto trading and custodial services. LMAX Digital, secure, liquid, and trusted. Go learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp. Again, that's LMAXdigital.com/pomp. This episode is brought to you by Unstoppable Domains. They've partnered with blockchain.com

• 1:29Anthony Pompliano?

  to create NFT domain names ending in .blockchain. It's the perfect ending to show that you're a believer in a decentralized future. The blockchain.com community can join a short waitlist to get one for free at blockchain.com/weightlist/blockchaindomain. Free NFT domains provide all the benefits of premium unstoppable domains, including fee-free lifelong ownership. If you don't have a blockchain.com wallet, no worries, there's new free domains available to everyone. Either join the waitlist for a free blockchain.com domain, or visit unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today, starting as low as $5. UnstoppableDomains.com. This episode is brought to you by OKX, they're the world's most powerful crypto exchange and now the second largest in

• 2:13Anthony Pompliano?

  terms of volume. It offers a comprehensive trading platform with over 730 spot trading pairs, 280 derivative markets and 1,000 option markets. It processes 400,000 requests per second with 30 gigabytes per second of data throughput and 99.95% uptime. For pro and institutional traders, they've just launched the OKX Liquid Marketplace, which is an on-demand liquidity network with multiple brokers where you can instantly trade spot derivatives and multi-leg structures at the price you want while bypassing the order book. They offer up to a 50% discount now. So go to OKX.com to try it today. OKX.com. Go try it today.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:14Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Tim here with me. I thought a great place to start would be innovation is something that you've hung your hat on. You have an investment style that benefits when people figure out innovation, when they're able to build companies and startups. How do you actually know when something is innovative versus it looks shiny or it looks sexy, but it isn't truly something that's going to break through and end up creating economic value?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  So what's cool about what I do is I can fail a lot. So think of me swimming really hard and hoping a wave comes. And so when I meet an entrepreneur where I say, oh, wow, that's really interesting. The market size is big enough. They're using technology in a new, unique way. And they're talking about the customer a lot. And

• 4:03Speaker 02

  If they're successful, I like the way that world looks, then I'm ready to jump in. And about half the time, it doesn't work. But every once in a while, it does. And when it does, it usually works bigger than any of us ever imagined. And so that's why I'm always making an investment based on what could the world look like? And how, is that a world I want to live in? And that turns out to be a great way to invest.

• 4:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you're meeting founders early on and you're asking them questions, obviously, you're not asking them only questions about themselves, but you're trying to understand how they think, how they make decisions. Are there things that you explicitly look for where you're like, yep, that is a good sign? Or even things that they may say or do where you're like, that's a red flag. I've seen that pattern before and I don't want to kind of repeat it.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so now all the entrepreneurs who are listening are going to game the system. But let me, I'll give you the hint. Because it's you, because it's Pop, this is very special. And I'm just going to say, I ask the question, why are you doing this? And I do it in just that way. Because the great entrepreneurs will rise to the occasion. And the wannabes or they'll sort of say, well, you know, my friend thought it was a good idea. I wanted to start a business or whatever, want to make money or whatever. We're backing missionaries and it turns out the mercenaries don't make money. The missionaries do.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  And so the ones who have it in their head that this is the way the world's going to look. And this is what I'm going to do. And this is how I'm going to get there. And here's how I'm going to delight my customer. And this is how customers are going to become our sales force, all those things. Then we say, okay, that's worth jumping into.

• 6:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you meet some of these founders, what's always fascinating to me is like Airbnb goes on to be a massive business. Facebook goes on to be these massive businesses. And you hear the origin stories. Now, there's always the hindsight bias of like, oh, we always knew it was going to be a big business. But a lot of times it's somebody trying to solve a problem for themselves or for a friend or whatever. And it starts off small. How many of the founders do you think actually have like world domination as a kind of vision early on? Versus they almost gain confidence as the thing begins to work more and more and they realize they can go bigger and bigger?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  I actually think it is the latter. At first, it's, I want to solve this problem for this customer. And I've got this new technology that is like 10 years better than the technology that these competitors are operating under. And now I can do something really interesting for the customer that they weren't able to do before. Well, then, they jump in and they start and things start going well. And going well means you've got three customers who are delighted. Until you have three customers that are delighted, it's not going well. Okay. Okay. Before that, it's like still failing.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  We call that fail and fail again until you succeed. You're still failing until, until you've got three customers who are delighted. And then, figure out how you can make those customers into your sales force. Get them so happy that all they have to, all they want to do is talk about you. And have them spread it. And then, you start getting that machine going. And then the entrepreneur can really realize their full potential, their full dream, their full vision. And that really does make a difference. You, and then they do start getting

• 7:56Speaker 02

  big and broad and thinking bigger and broader. And they are also capable of doing much more. Once your company is profitable, all of a sudden, you're, the world opens up to you. Until then, you're at the mercy of venture capitalists. And, and like going into a bear market like this, your venture capitalist should not be your source of money. You need to cut your team back and make it as efficient as possible so that you can make it through and get the money from your customers.

• 8:28Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think of a consumer product, it's very easy to understand what the problem is. Delight three customers, they turn into your sales force. You don't just invest in consumer products. You also invest in all sorts of innovative technologies. And so maybe we can use two examples, rockets and Bitcoin, which a lot of times people like to say Bitcoin is on the rocket. And right, it's going to the moon, but we're going to separate.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Sticking a very circuitous route.

• 8:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes, it's going up and down, up and down, but eventually it will go up, right? And maybe let's start with rockets, right? When you think about some of the companies that you guys have invested there, how do you think about which customers are you delighting? How do you think about which is the problem? A rocket can do a lot of different things. Like walk me through maybe just like underwriting some of these companies and use an example or just talk generally.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  So it is true that Elon, when he talks about, when he talked about Tesla, he was talking about how he could delight his customers. So he did have that in mind when, now backing a rocket company, that's where, that's where the market part comes in to our thinking. The market is nothing's happened in this industry for years. The existing parties are not providing the customer experience we all want. So it had been 50 years since there had been a successful car company when we funded Tesla from the very beginning.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  And, and, and everyone in the world really thought that rockets were only a business for, for governments. And when you have an industry like that, that hasn't changed forever, and you have an entrepreneur that says, huh? There's a new technology here and I can do something with it and I can jump into this market with something that in the case of the rocket. Was one two hundredth of the cost of what it would take to get a rocket from NASA. So NASA would shoot a rocket up with a certain payload. And SpaceX was able to do that for one two hundredth of the cost.

• 10:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Pretty good.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  And so, once you you see something like that, where an industry has gotten sort of fat and lazy, and not to say that the individuals within NASA are fat and lazy, or the individuals within the car companies are fat and lazy. Yeah, they, in the car company example, they they they were so caught up in their own success. They they lobbied government, they government sort of wrote rules to limit what they could do. And then, all of a sudden, there's this electric car that comes along that's that doesn't run like a golf cart, but it runs extraordinarily fast. It's a breakthrough.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  And those breakthroughs happen occasionally, and they are the hardest to invest in.

• 11:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Because, well, in the case of both of those, eight out of the 10 partners at Draper, Fisher, Jervetson were saying no.

• 11:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Really? Eight out of 10 thought it was a bad idea?

• 11:45Speaker 02

  And the rest were kind of, and the two of us were pushing, pushing, pushing, and eventually, they sort of, okay, do it, but less, or whatever. And a little less so with SpaceX, because SpaceX, we already knew Elon was capable of extraordinary things.

• 12:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Why did you think that? So you guys invested in Tesla early, right? And in some ways, it's an insane idea to just go build an American car company in general, right, at that time. Now, there's still people who think it's an insane idea, but at least there's some traction. Why did you think Elon Musk was so different than other entrepreneurs that you all had met?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Well, we backed, before we backed Elon, we backed Martin Eberhard in the electric car business. We, because Tesla was started by Martin Eberhard. He

• 12:35Speaker 02

  It actually started before that. I got this ride with Ian Wright, who took me on his Wright Mobile.

• 12:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  And, and he said, and I said, oh, great. It's an electric car. This will be like riding in a golf cart. And he, he strapped me in with five, with five point straps. And I said, what? Wait, wait, what? And he, and he, and I, I was thinking, you know, you gotta be a tree hugger or a, or a golfer to want an electric car. And he said, no, no, stay strapped in. And he took me out on two eighty and we went zero to sixty so fast. And the car was sort of held together with PVC tubing and stuff. And, and we're on the freeway. And, and I'm just going, oh, my God, this is amazing. You, you know, this is a big breakthrough.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  And then he took me around and then he said, now watch this. And we were maybe forty feet from a stop sign going about sixty miles an hour. And he stopped before the stop sign. And I went, oh, boy, this is a whole different level in automotive. And, and I, and then there were all these restrictions and, and the lithium ion batteries blow up and all that stuff. And then I just studied the electric car industry. I went out and looked at all the different hobbyists who are building electric cars and they all mentioned Tesla. And the reason they mentioned Tesla was that he had worked out something where he could have multiple lithium batteries

• 14:11Speaker 02

  and one could blow up and the car would still go. They, and, and you get more torque if you run all the batteries at the same time. So then we met with him and it was, you know, it was a push to get it through our partnership. But then we, we got it done. And so I really do believe that the hardest investments to make are the ones that pay off the best.

• 14:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  And so if you, if it feels like, yeah, it's hard to put money, like it's easy to put money in when Bitcoin's at sixty seven thousand and it's hard to put money in when Bitcoin's at fifteen or sixteen thousand. And, and that kind of.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  You know, people call it contrarianism, but I don't think it's exactly contrarianism. Because we're actually trying to catch a wave that's really important long term. So, the one thing that I do do is I filter out entrepreneurs where they're not doing something that I believe is fundamental, or will change society, or will transform humanity, or will do something extraordinary for the world. And if they're not doing something like that, I figure there are other venture capitalists who can back that. They can just do it for the money, whatever.

• 15:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  We end up making more money than they do, but it's just because we make more mistakes, we are willing to fail, and when we succeed, we succeed really big and the world changes.

• 15:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. I'm not an expert on this, so you kind of tell me what I should know. There's a bunch of controversy. Elon says he started Tesla. Martin says they started Tesla, whatever. How do you kind of just think about like, when you have something that gets really big, there's a lot of people who are like, "I was early," right? You even see this with employees, the whole thing. I've met people who are like, "I was an early employee at X company." I'm like, "Oh, really? Like, when did you join?" You're like, "That's four years after the company started, and you're the 1,000th employee." And sometimes it's relative of like, if they have 50,000, being 1,000 is early. If they have 1,500, maybe it's not so early. How do you think through that? And like, does it even matter?

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Success breeds a lot of friends, and a lot of founders. And then failure, everybody runs away from.

• 16:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes, of course.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  And that is a natural thing. And I think I'm a little weird that way, in that I'm willing to take unpopular stances. I'm willing to be unpopular for a while, so that then down the road... The world will improve.

• 16:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Uh, if, and often people see that maybe what they're talking about isn't actually right, but they go ahead and talk about it anyway.

• 17:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Uh, and I, I think that that's human nature. They don't want to be sort of left out and, and perceived as a failure.

• 17:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Uh, they want to be perceived as a success. So they sort of say, I'm, I attach myself to this, not this. The movie business is very much that way.

• 17:31Anthony Pompliano?

  In what way?

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Everybody's a part of, you know, Star Wars from the beginning and nobody's a part of Lin Yendel or whatever, you know, nobody's a part of the ones that were bombed.

• 17:42Anthony Pompliano?

  The failures.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Um, and that's, that's definitely true in the venture business. So that does happen.

• 17:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  It's a, it's a thing. And Elon was a part of the founding of Tesla, but he was, Martin Eberhard was the original CEO and that's one we backed. And then they ran out of money and Elon said, I'll put in 10 million, but I, I don't like the way this is going. I've got a better way to go. We were very welcoming to Elon. He did an incredible, and he did an incredible job.

• 18:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  I mean, he, he got this huge government loan, 400 million. He, um, he bought the New Me plant from, from the Ford, I guess, for about five cents on the dollar.

• 18:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Uh, he, he basically set up for greatness and he was willing to sort of lay it all on the line. And there were times when he, he had to lend money from his own pocket to keep the thing going. He had to do so much to make it all work. And he did the same for SpaceX. And, uh, and really there were times at SpaceX when things were very tough, you know, three rockets in a row blew up.

• 18:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  And, uh, and he still had that faith and that determination. And I think he's probably going to be able to do that with Twitter, too.

• 19:07Anthony Pompliano?

  I tend to think he's going to be okay with Twitter. If you can land rockets and create an electric vehicle, I think Twitter is a walk in the park.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:14Anthony Pompliano?

  To some degree.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, he's it's gonna he bought at the top, but but there will be another top. I think he will be very successful with that.

• 19:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  And I love how he thinks it's like, first, I want to save the planet. That's Tesla. Well, first, he wants to create PayPal, which is like anybody can buy things very easily digitally. Then he wants to save the planet with Tesla. Then he wants a hedge against this planet with SpaceX. And then he's thinking, we need free speech. You know, we seem to be losing free speech. And I think the pandemic gave weak government officials the ability to try to control people. And that was not a healthy thing. In fact, I've noticed that in the world, that the weak leaders are the ones who try to control people.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  And the strong, great leaders are the ones who trust people and set them free. And that that is much rarer, but the the weak ones are like President Xi. He's he's decided that he's going to control 1.4 billion people and tell them all what to do. Lock them up. I mean, God, and he's locked up people. Their houses were on fire and they had to get out. And and he's his military guys say, no, you cannot leave because of this no zero tolerance thing for COVID. I mean,

• 20:46Speaker 02

  a great leader sets people free, tells them everything that he knows, and let lets them figure it out for themselves. And that is a much better way for leaders to operate. George Washington, he just he said, no, it's going to be a free country. I'm not going to be the king of America. I'm gonna be the president of America and after two, two terms, it's enough. Bring on another person. And think of what that did, my gosh. Set people free for 200 plus years and now you're seeing weak politicians and weak leaders and weak government employees trying to bring more controls into the system. And I think that's unhealthy.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  I mean, the way I look at it, they, people say, why do you like decentralized? And I say, okay, well, what is centralized? Start, let's start there. Centralized is Putin. With one guy has decided that two, he's gonna ruin the lives of 200 million people just because he decided he didn't like the idea that he didn't own Ukraine. And all of a sudden, he's just ruined 200 million lives. That's centralization. Decentralization, it would be Putin with, you know, maybe one or two other people

• 22:11Speaker 02

  working on, and if they all decide to go to war, then put it, put them into a fighting cage.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  It doesn't ruin 200 million lives, which is why I love Bitcoin, because it's decentralized and doesn't have a single point of failure, whereas the Fed is centralized and the Fed has a point of failure. And when a government employee, a government, a centralized government decides they're gonna print 10 trillion dollars, that creates inflation. That means your dollar that used to be worth a dollar is now worth 82 cents. And then the Fed has to make up for it by saying, okay, now we gotta raise rates. And then you go through this cycle and people say, well, what, you know, why do we keep going through these booms and busts?

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Well, it's because the, the Fed has to react to what the politicians are doing. That's all centralized. If it's all run on Bitcoin, it's decentralized. No one, there are 21 million of them, that's all there will ever be. And you, and all those will be run off various nodes and, and no one person can print a whole bunch more Bitcoin, create a crisis in the economy.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Force interest rates to go arbitrarily high, force us into a recession so that people get laid off and then we have to kind of reinvent ourselves. So I like decentralization. And centralization is President Xi. One guy is deciding to shut down all of Shanghai and the entire world supply chain. One guy. What's that about?

• 24:00Anthony Pompliano?

  When you think of Bitcoin, I always see the Fed as human-led decision-making that has a variable policy and is reactive to the world, right? So things happen and they react. They raise rates, they drop rates, whatever. Bitcoin is software, so programmatic monetary policy. It is not variable. It's set in stone. And it doesn't react. When you think of those two systems, they're obviously at odds. And going back to this idea of venture capital, it's almost like the perfect venture capital bet, right? It's like, it's definitely different, and if it's right, it's super asymmetric. And so obviously, you were very early to recognizing that and wagering quite a bit of money on it. But the counterargument,

• 24:42Anthony Pompliano?

  or the critic would say, oh, no, we need to be reactive because the Fed is able to cool off the economy if it gets too hot, or it's able to actually ignite growth when we get into these bad periods. I'm assuming we see similarly kind of why that is wrong. But just talk a little bit as to, like, how would you tell a critic of Bitcoin, no, the programmatic monetary policy is actually better for the economy, not just for Bitcoin holders, but for the economy, to run on this programmatic monetary policy? How do you think about that?

• 25:12Speaker 02

  I think there are a lot of people who resist change. And they are, they are the equivalent of the weak leader, the one who just wants it to go the way they want it to go. And they have a job and everything's kind of going along and they don't want to mess with it. I think the strong people are accepting of change or even embrace it. And they even drive change. And when you have a big change like this, this is an anthropological leap. This is the equivalent leap of going from shells to gold, or gold to the promise of

• 25:54Speaker 02

  gold, or the, from the promise of gold to the full faith and credit of the US government. Those leaps brought, built incredible, each one brought incredible wealth to the world. And each one had people saying, no, we still should do shells. Because that's the way we do everything, and we don't really want to change anything. But then, everybody realized that gold was better, and then they moved to the promise of gold, and that was even better than that. And then the credit policy, all of a sudden, with credit, we were able to do even more. Now, we are making this leap.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Bitcoin is much more liquid. It can move anywhere. It is decentralized, transparent. It's, which means, anybody can see what has happened on the blockchain. Everyone can see what's happened on the blockchain. It is, it keeps perfect records. It can be taken anywhere in the world, it's not tied to some political force that decides that they want, like, I don't, I don't imagine that the Russians are taking Ukrainian zloties or whatever, I guess Polish zloties. Anyway, you can't buy things with fiat currencies that aren't in the country that you're in, unless...

• 27:24Speaker 02

  They've got a really good relationship with the other country. Bitcoin's accepted everywhere. And that's a real benefit. Long term, that's a fantastic benefit. The other part of Bitcoin is if I need to send money to somebody in Africa without a bank account, I'm not even sure how I could do it. I call my bank, they turn the dollars into something, they move it over, it has to be transferred to Naira. The Naira has to show up and turn into cash and then they hand it to somebody.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  That doesn't make, for a very liquid environment. But if I have, if I want to send a Bitcoin, it's just, I'm done. And I've done that, actually. I bought a bunch of books from this guy who said, I'm going away for six months to Africa and I won't have a bank account. I said, but I gotta buy the books from you. So I think he made about a million dollars on those books.

• 28:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow.

• 28:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, I have two questions.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  So there's always that. Like, like you know Bitcoin is going to be worth more in the future.

• 28:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  And so you say, well, do I really want to spend it? But you do want usage to improve. So it's always a trade off.

• 28:43Anthony Pompliano?

  How do you decide when you spend Bitcoin versus when you don't? Is it just this thing is so valuable that it's worth it? Or is there some other framework?

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Well, I, my goal is never to sell my Bitcoin, but to eventually spend or invest. Really, I want to invest it. And, but I'm, I'm gonna wait for a time when I, I feel that,

• 29:08Speaker 02

  that the world understands it and that the world is, is, has finally embraced it. And I think that's probably five years from now.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Because,

• 29:24Speaker 02

  this is kind of an interesting statistic. Women control 80% of retail spending. And, and until recently, about one in 16 Bitcoin wallets was owned by a woman. Now it's more like one in eight.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  When, when, at retail, when the retailer can easily accept Bitcoin, which they kind of can now with OpenNode, they're going to realize that they can bring another 2% right to their bottom line. And they're going to encourage their customers to buy with Bitcoin. And the moment I can buy my food, my clothing, and my shelter all in Bitcoin, why do I need a political currency? Why would I want a fiat currency? I would just hold on to Bitcoin. I would sell all my fiat currency.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  And I think there will be a moment where there's kind of a run on fiat currency, where it's like, we got to get out of this.

• 30:32Anthony Pompliano?

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• 31:16Anthony Pompliano?

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• 32:00Anthony Pompliano?

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• 32:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that what you think basically is like the end result here? There's a lot of people who hold Bitcoin. Some of them have very extreme views and kind of ultra bullish. Some of them are like, eh, it's 1% of my portfolio and, you know, I look at it just like anything else. Your belief is that Bitcoin will replace fiat currencies in our lifetime?

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. At some point, you're not going to want a government-controlled currency, because it does what this happens. You get a boom and then you get a bust and then the Fed has to adjust. You get, and the boom and bust is all determined by some political candidate who happened to win. And then they just say, okay, we're going to spend a bunch of money. And then you get a boom and then all of a sudden you get a huge bust because the Fed has to say, wait, we're going into inflationary times. We got to raise interest rates. And so all of a sudden, you've got a bust. There's some, something healthy about a boom and a bust, but I think

• 33:45Speaker 02

  you will get, you'll get that anyway. People will, you know, be excited about something and then less excited and then excited again. Give you a kind of interesting example. Almost every technology goes through what I call the IS curve. I even branded it the Draper IS curve. Every industry kind of comes up and then gets hyped to the max and then that's sort of the dot on the I, it's a cursive I. And then it comes, drops down and they say, oh God, well this, you know, I can't buy anything with my credit card and I can't do, all these things that the internet has promised, I can't

• 34:28Speaker 02

  do anything with it. And so for years it sits there languishing, but while it's languishing, all these great engineers are working really hard and they're coming up with a great way for us to experience this internet thing. And then it starts slowly creeping up like an S and then it explodes for years. And then it flattens out as new technologies come along and go through their same IS curve.

• 34:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Almost like a false start in the beginning. Like there's hype because people see what it could be, but the work hasn't been done yet. So you gotta do the work and then it takes off.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. So I think the same thing's happened with Bitcoin. You've had the big hype I, and by the way, the S is much higher than the I. I mean, you think about, you know, the top of the I had Amazon valued at maybe, I don't know, a hundred million dollars. And now it's worth a couple trillion.

• 35:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, two trillion, something like that.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's a thousand times higher than the I was the S. And so people don't even realize how creative other people are and they don't realize how big something like this can become. So the internet transformed communications, information, gaming, entertainment, media, taxis, hotels.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  And those are all pretty big industries. They're big. They have a big influence and all that. But Bitcoin has the potential, Bitcoin with the blockchain, the smart contracts, the eventually DAOs, have the potential to transform the biggest industries in the world. That's all of commerce, finance. It doesn't just stop with currency. It's, you're gonna see major changes in real estate as companies like Propy, all of a sudden,

• 36:40Speaker 02

  are the place you go for your title. So you probably wouldn't need title insurance anymore. Insurance is gonna go through major changes. And what is government but a lot of insurance policies? And so I think government's gonna go through major transformation. In fact, I'd say 80% of government is probably insurance. It's your healthcare insurance, your workman's comp, your welfare, your

• 37:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Unemployment.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Unemployment insurance, the pension,

• 37:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Social Security pension.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Social Security, all that stuff. That probably does make up about 80%. And so all of that with a Bitcoin economy could be virtual. And various governments could compete for your service, to provide better service for you. And so I've seen a few governments that are being billed up in space or 11 miles offshore, or in free trade zones, or whatever. And in fact, I'm a citizen of one of them.

• 37:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Which one?

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Oh God, I wish I remembered. He's gonna be mad. The guy who created Aragon has also now created a new government, Luis.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Uh, Quende, he, uh, and, and anyway, he made me the 187th, uh, member of the, of the government.

• 38:11Anthony Pompliano?

  You were one of the first, uh, e-residents of, uh, I think Estonia?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was supposed to be number one.

• 38:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  But I ended up being number three because, uh, they, some New York Times editor got a chance to be first.

• 38:25Anthony Pompliano?

  In exchange for a story?

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then Jervitson was second because I felt like, okay, Steve, you were, and it's, your grandfather was the Estonian president. I'll give you number two.

• 38:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Ah, okay.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  And then I was number three.

• 38:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  And, um, and I really loved that. By the way, that government is so far ahead of our government in, in digitizing the government.

• 38:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Hmm. What are they doing?

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Uh, digitized voting, digitized, the whole economy is digitized, your parking is digitized, your taxes are digitized. Everything is, everything is online.

• 38:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Hmm.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  And it's very efficient and that has allowed that, um, government to, uh, swing above its, uh, weight class.

• 39:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Hmm.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  It, uh, it looks like it's, uh, I think they're maybe number three as a per capita unicorn creator.

• 39:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  And a lot of that is based on a, a government that encourages, sets its people free and trusts, trusts them and sets them free.

• 39:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When we switch from, let's call it a fiat-based world to a Bitcoin-based world, however that happens, um, or whenever that happens, is it a peaceful transfer or do you worry that there's like conflict and, and as we've seen over the centuries and even thousands of years, whenever global reserve currencies change hands and things like that, it usually hasn't been very peaceful. How do, how do you kind of think through that? And, um, obviously there's an investment case for an asset, but then there's also like, you have a family, you're a human, right? Like, like there's things that like, you don't want to see suffering in the world, bad things. So how do you think this plays out?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  It is playing out and I I would argue that we were all pretty much at peace while the internet was booming because that was all about communications and being better, you know, doing business with each other and building a supply chain throughout the world and everybody was benefiting from that. And that was unprecedented how how much more productive people were during that time and how many people got brought out of poverty during that time. And then Bitcoin came along and the great countries, the great leaders are the ones who have embraced Bitcoin.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  The weak leaders are the ones who are saying, no, we've got to control things. And all of a sudden, they use that as an excuse or whatever to show their true colors, which is, I need to control everybody. When you have a control-based government, they go to war because it's a single person, it's a weak person, it's somebody who gets everybody to do exactly what they want them to do, and those people also want the rest of the world to do what they want to do. And they, and so they'll attack if they're not doing what they want to do. So I'd argue it's already happening. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more wars happening.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  And then when all the wars are done, hopefully we'll all, most of us will survive or, you know, vast majority will survive. That'll be the time when we all kind of hold hands, the borders start to drop, the businesses start doing doing work across borders again, the supply chain reopens up around the world. We don't have to say us against them and we're all better off.

• 42:02Anthony Pompliano?

  It feels like most people, I think, in the Bitcoin community think that is the end state, and there's questions in terms of how we get there. But also, there's questions about the US government, and are they going to fully embrace it? Are they going to tax it? Are they going to, maybe in the most extreme case, ban ownership or whatever? It also feels like maybe we've kind of de-risked some of the most extreme reactions, right? We have politicians who hold the asset. We have many businesses that are publicly traded that use the asset. Many Wall Street firms now are playing in it. What do you think is kind of the play, if you will, for the US government? Is it something where they just say, hey, this is a fast-growing sector, we're going to put some taxes here, and that'll

• 42:45Anthony Pompliano?

  be good enough? Or do you think that there's other regulations that you worry about or people should be paying attention to?

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Now, again, I say that we, the good leaders are pushing, they're trusting people and setting them free. And the bad leaders are trying to control things and regulate and tax and whatever else. Now, I understand taxing because it aligns interests. And I think that the US government should understand that they've just wasted a ton of money on 80,000 IRS agents, where if they became a Bitcoin economy, everybody'd be paying their

• 43:32Speaker 02

  taxes automatically. And they would, they probably could charge far less taxes because they don't have to, you know, have all these guys going around wasting people's time, you know, looking for frauds, looking for whatever, because there would be no frauds. It would all be on the blockchain. Everybody'd see it. Everybody knows how much everybody's making.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  You don't, I mean, the government will know how much you're making. And that tax will happen. Now, I actually think you could experiment with something like a transfer tax. And just put that like point oh oh two five percent or something. On all transactions, all digital transactions. And you would start to see that taxing Bitcoin as an asset makes no sense. It should be taxed as a, it should be taxed on transactions. And then that would pay for probably a lot more than what the government is using it for now. And much more efficiently.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  And I think there's only one or two countries in the world who have started to do that. And they are probably going to be, they're going to go from the poorest to probably some of the wealthiest countries in the world over the next forty years because they've done it.

• 45:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Which ones?

• 45:04Speaker 02

  El Salvador and Central African Republic. And then Malta, of course, is going to benefit big. Switzerland is benefiting big because they're making Bitcoin a part of their economy.

• 45:17Anthony Pompliano?

  You think El Salvador will be one of the richest countries in the world in the future?

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're starting as the poorest. Singapore was one of the poorest countries in the world sixty years ago. And Lee Kuan Yew trusted his people. And he, he didn't set them free completely. He, he laid down very clear laws. And then he, then he set them free and he had a completely free market. And, and over that seventy year period, he went from poorest to richest.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Have I talked about Korea?

• 45:54Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Oh, so this is why I've come to the conclusion about freedom and trust.

• 46:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  It's all about freedom and trust. So they drew this line, the arbitrary line, but they split Korea in half. And the northerners took on, oh, and they drew this line, the, the

• 46:13Anthony Pompliano?

  DMS.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Demilitarized zone and that, nobody crossed that line. Almost zero people crossed that line over 70 years. So the, the North Koreans took on government control, socialism, communism, Marxism, Leninism. They took on all those isms and they, and everybody did what the government told them to do. And the government told them to do basically everything. Their job, their everything. It was like government is watching you and making sure you're doing exactly what you have to do. And that's the deal. South Korea was free market, capitalistic system, uh, democracy, open borders, uh,

• 47:00Speaker 02

  freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of whatever, trusted their people. Okay, 70 years have gone by. The average South Korean now makes 460 times what the average North Korean makes. And that's when adjusted for purchasing power, it's even better.

• 47:19Anthony Pompliano?

  460.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  460 times. And, and the average South Korean is now four inches taller than the average North Korean.

• 47:30Anthony Pompliano?

  That's crazy.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  And that has been three generations, four generations. And suddenly you have entirely different, I mean, they're almost different

• 47:42Speaker 02

  races.

• 47:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Of people.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  And, uh, and now if, even if North Korea started to create freedom now, it would take generations for them to understand the markets and build their base. That Eastern Europe has had that problem too. Like when Gorbachev brought down the wall.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Suddenly, the Eastern Europeans said, okay, I want to be a part of this capitalistic system.

• 48:12Anthony Pompliano?

  This thing looks good.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  This thing looks good, but we're not sure we how to do it. And they don't, they didn't really understand the customer and they didn't, there were certain things they didn't understand. On the other hand, some of the best entrepreneurs in the world have come out of the Eastern Bloc, and that's because the technology education was so good.

• 48:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  And they came up with different ideas. They had different ways of thinking and that kind of thing. So some of that was very healthy.

• 48:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  But that just tells you that get, you want, you want more countries, you want more opportunities, you want more choices as a consumer, but not just for all your consumer goods. You want more choices of what government that you want to work with.

• 49:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  And those governments are going to have a variety of, I mean, through the, the, oh, and, okay, through the Bitcoin and the blockchain and smart contracts and DAOs, you're going to see new governments jump up that are completely virtual and you are going to be able to be a part of them.

• 49:26Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like Balaji's network state idea.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think ultimately, the other land-based governments are going to become much more efficient, and some of them will fall under their own weight.

• 49:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm. What would you do if you were the President of the United States? You, you understand technology, you understand a lot of the innovations that are happening, you understand Bitcoin and kind of the potential that it has. You become president tomorrow, you get, you know, a year runway, do whatever you want. There, there's nobody in Congress or Senate who stops, they just say, Tim, save us. What would you do?

• 50:01Speaker 02

  I think I'd send that message of we are going to and to all the government employees, to everybody, we're going to trust the people and we're going to set them free. And and those messages will that will tweak government in so many different ways. Different things will happen like I would suspect that that would get government employees payments to be not tied the the improvements in their salary not to be tied to CPI, which is what they are now, which is ridiculous. It's tied to inflation, but be tied to GDP growth.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  All of a sudden, they're on your side and it's our government again. It's not that government that's in our way. It's our government. I mean, we were supposed to be we, the people, right? Now it feels it used to be that the government worked for the people and now it feels like the people are working for the government. And so I think that that I would try to get the bureaucracy fired up to to trust the people, set them free, and and I would deregulate massively. There are so many regulations that are overlapping and it's a little like China.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  They have overlapping regulations so that they can get you if you do and get you if they don't. And and so they they just it's their way of being able to target people. And I think that's very unhealthy. I think the healthy way to operate is to say, people have to figure out how to make their living. People have to figure out the way they want to live, how they want to operate in a free market that is the best system that we've ever had to do that. And it's worked everywhere it's been tried. I think that would be the approach I would take.

• 52:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I've got two more questions for you. The first is, are you still buying Bitcoin? Like, you you bought so much Bitcoin on the on the auction and people know that story. But how do you think about like, you have a dollar, do you buy Bitcoin? Do you save a dollar? Do you invest in a startup? Like, how do you just go through like a capital allocation decision?

• 52:21Speaker 02

  It's great thing, great to talk to you about. I have a big bunch of startups that are in my portfolio and they need capital. And they, if we pay them in Bitcoin, if we invest in Bitcoin, the accountants get three times as much money.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  So until that is all fixed, I will continue to invest in fiat.

• 52:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  With fiat. So, and I have, like, I have a fund where I allow other investors in, but it's mostly, well, it's not mostly my money. It's a quarter of my money. And so I have large capital calls I have to make. So as long as I feel that all the capital calls are covered by fiat, as long as I feel that I know that I'm going to have enough fiat to cover those capital calls over this long period of time, then the rest I can put into, I can put into Bitcoin.

• 53:32Anthony Pompliano?

  That's what you did. It's like, pretty much, you've got responsibilities and once you know that the fiat that you have covers the responsibilities, everything else pretty much goes in Bitcoin.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I have a foundation that actually has a, now a disproportionate amount of Bitcoin because it, I mean, we, we bought it at a relatively low price and now it's more. And so you, you look and say, well, wait, that isn't a well-managed foundation. Well, actually, it's really well-managed.

• 54:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Track record says otherwise.

• 54:08Anthony Pompliano?

  My last question for you is, right now, there's investors, there's founders that are all going through this like recessionary period. And I know that now somehow we're debating what is a recession, what's not a recession, whatever. It's worse times than it was a year ago.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And there are people who are debating whether it will get worse than it is now, or maybe it'll get better. But how do you, over the years, kind of think about these periods? What do you do? What do you give advice to founders to do? Like, just how do you navigate a recession if you're a tech investor, a founder, or somebody who's into Bitcoin?

• 54:40Speaker 02

  So I was lucky because I've already been through this with the dot com boom and bust. And during the boom, people were losing their minds and they pets.com and whatever else. And it was like this guy, I knew it was the top of the market, although I didn't know. The guy came to me and he said, yeah, I'm a rocket scientist and I'm doing hotels.com. And I thought, what? You are not meant to be doing hotels.com. You're meant to be a rocket scientist. And, and I started to think, oh, I get it. There's, there's something that this sort of, you know, the greed thing has taken over and people aren't doing things for the right reasons.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  But then I saw it all disappear very quickly. And that was even quicker than what you're seeing here. And, and so then I got to see what happened afterwards. And so since I saw that, I saw it again here with, with a big boom in the tech stock market. And I was telling all my entrepreneurs, because these guys, Tiger Global and all these big, huge venture hedge funds were coming in with huge amounts of money. And I thought, wow, this is very unusual.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  And so I told all my entrepreneurs two years ago, just raise as much as you can, don't spend it. Raise as much as you can, don't spend it. Now, some of them listened, some of them didn't. Ones who didn't are now in a tough spot. We now tell them, you've got to cut your business down. You got to cut your team down, you know, keep growing your business, but cut your team down. And I remember with a dot com bust, I went to a company and I said, okay, so how many people do you have? And they said, 400. And I said, okay, you got to cut that to three. And they said, 300? And I said, no, three people.

• 56:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  And I looked and I said, you have to start getting your money from customers. You, the venture money's been too easy. And it's not going to be there anymore. And so you got to get your money from customers. And they went out of business.

• 57:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Um, because they didn't do any of that. They, they thought I was just out of my mind, which, you know, is arguable. You know, go ahead, think about it. Listen to me long enough and you'll go, yes, he is completely out.

• 57:20Anthony Pompliano?

  But I think, what I think is interesting there though, is like, it, it's almost, um, uh, the propensity for action or, or like a, a violence of action of from 400 to three. A lot of people say, okay, 400 to 300, 400 to 200, 400 to 100, even crazy, let's do 400 to 50. But 400 to three, there's like a sticker shock to that. But really what I, taking away from that is like, sometimes that is what is necessary. It depends on the situation, but like, that could be what is necessary.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think sometimes you have to do, you're running a business. You've got, let's say you've got $10 million in the bank. And you're burning a million a month. Okay, 10 million in the bank, you're burning a million a month. You're done in 10 months. Okay, a bear market can be, I mean, the, the dot com bear market, that was eight years. Seven, six or six, eight years.

• 58:16Anthony Pompliano?

  More than five.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  A long time. And if you aren't figuring out how to getting, get money from customers before that, you're going to be out of business.

• 58:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  And, uh, in fact, there's a, a group correlation ventures who, who, uh, said, uh, to me that there is almost, it's almost bifurcated that if a company is, and this is before the big bull market. If a company is spending more than $300,000 in a month, the odds of their success go down like. Like a waterfall.

• 58:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Wow.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  And the the odds of success of somebody who's burning less than 300,000 are much better. And it's almost that's the number. Just keep it down below 300,000 a month and you have a pretty good shot at making it because even in a bear market, the venture guys can dig deep and maybe put some money in to keep you alive. If if that's the burn rate, but if the burn rate's a million a month, 10 10 million a month in some cases.

• 59:28Anthony Pompliano?

  What's the worst you've ever seen? What's the worst burn rate?

• 59:30Speaker 02

  It's probably in the 10 million a month.

• 59:33Anthony Pompliano?

  10 million dollars a month, somebody was burning.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Is it a publicly known company or is it a no name company?

• 59:39Speaker 02

  Oh, I I mean, I've seen that kind of thing recently.

• 59:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, really?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  A lot.

• 59:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  But I think now you.

• 59:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Not going to be so much.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  You're not going to see.

• 59:50Anthony Pompliano?

  10 million, I mean, and and for those.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  So I think you've got to run your business conservatively in that way is don't run out of money. As soon as you run out of money, it's over.

• 1:00:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  It's done. Your whole dream, your vision is done. And if you do run out of money, if if if you don't run out of money, there's still a good shot you can make it. So just

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  manage it tightly. Don't run out.

• 1:00:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Don't run out of money and check out Bitcoin. I think that's a great I think that's a great summary of of our conversation. Where where can we send people? You've got book, you're online. Where do you want us to send people?

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  So you can follow me on Twitter.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  The you can pitch us, draper.vc.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  You can you can watch our show. We have a show called Meet the Drapers where we have fantastic guest judges. And it was started as just a whim between me and my dad and my sister. And we just started this thing and my my kids. And we started this thing. We wanted to interview entrepreneurs on online. And we have, we have 11 million viewers now and our next season, season six, looks like it's going to be 30 million viewers. I can't believe it. We, I can't believe that many people want to watch, but it is sort of fascinating to watch these entrepreneurs going through what

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  they're going through. We interview and we ask them very different questions. It's very, it's a different show than like a Shark Tank or whatever. And we're, we're really excited about that. And then if you are like somewhere around 25 years old and you're thinking, I want to go do something with my life and I have great passion and I kind of have an idea, then think about going to Draper University, applying to Draper University. That's another of our things. And you can read my book, which is, it's fun.

• 1:01:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Just Google your name and they'll find it.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  They'll find all sorts of things. They're gonna find things they don't even want to see.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Things you can't unsee.

• 1:02:11Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, Tim. Well, listen, thank you so much for doing this and we definitely do it again in the future.

• 1:02:14Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me on the show.

• 1:02:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.