How I Built Resilience: Live with Morgan DeBaun

Morgan DeBaun founded Blavity as a media platform for Black millennials to convene and connect online. Today, amidst an economic crisis and a reawakening of concern over racial justice, Blavity's mission is both more urgent and more challenging. These conversations are excerpts from our How I Built Resilience series, where Guy talks online with founders and entrepreneurs about how they're navigating turbulent times. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.

• 0:45Guy Raz?

  But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned. Money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes

• 1:30Guy Raz?

  based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?

• 2:14Guy Raz?

  So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea. What separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt.

• 2:54Guy Raz?

  Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting and a CMS built in, so the work is production ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together.

• 3:36Guy Raz?

  The agents bring speed and scale and people bring taste, judgment and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities. It's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.

• 4:21Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 5:06Guy Raz?

  If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built. Hey, everyone, and welcome to How I Built This: Resilience Edition. On these episodes, we're talking with entrepreneurs about how to think creatively during this really disruptive moment. And today, I'm bringing you my conversation with Morgan DeBon, the founder of Blavity. Blavity is a media company with multiple verticals written by and for Black millennials. Morgan started it six years ago after working in the tech industry,

• 5:49Guy Raz?

  and we'll definitely talk about what spurred her to do it. But first, I just wanted to know how she was doing. It's been like, what, like, two years since the pandemic started? How have you been doing?

• 6:02Speaker 01

  I think now I'm OK.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  I felt like I just went to war. I mean, it was a very traumatic experience, running a business and having to make some very tough decisions about people and business model and make a lot of pivots and still exude confidence, leading a group of people to help manage their anxieties and fear of uncertainty. And then during that pandemic that we're still very much in, having the social unrest and really going into overdrive as a company and as a mission of who we serve while having limited resources because of COVID. So it's been a very long couple of months and I'm very proud of what we've been able to accomplish despite all the things going on.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  But yeah, I feel a little bit tired, Guy.

• 6:52Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So for people watching who may not know, Blavity is a news website. You've got all these different brands, travel sites and tech, and you do conferences and politics sites and beauty and lifestyle verticals. Can you tell us a bit more about Blavity?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Blavity Inc. is a media company and platform. I started it when I was first in Silicon Valley and in tech and mostly because I felt lonely and there was a lot of opportunity to create more spaces for young Black people in this country. And I wanted us as a community to have our own brand where we could tell our own stories and share our own heroes. And so we really try to encompass the entire fullness of Blackness, which includes not just news, but also travel and food and music and art and culture and storytelling. Shadow and Act, one of our brands, focuses on Black Hollywood. AfroTech focuses on Black innovators and technologists and venture funding.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  So we really try to make sure that the business is diversified across the many different types of experiences within the Black diaspora in our space.

• 8:02Guy Raz?

  I love this founding story of it, and I want to just ask you a little about it because you were a student at Washington University in St. Louis where you grew up. And from what I understand, like, you used to have these really amazing, like, movable feast conversations with friends, a group of Black students, and you kind of, I guess jokingly, called it Black Gravity and then started calling it Blavity. And that was kind of the genesis of this media company. How did you, like, come to the realization that, I'm gonna, I want to do this. I want to take that spirit and that energy and I want to turn it into a media company?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, there's this moment at the lunch table that I think a lot of people of color have this experience where, you know, maybe you're not the majority at the school, but when it comes to the cafeteria, like, you all have your moment. At Wash U, it was the Black Table. And blavity was a phrase that was just used and kind of passed down between the Black students year over year. And it was that emotional feeling of, like, okay, one person sits down, and then 10 people sit down, and then you're having those conversations about class, or proofreading each other's essays, or what you guys did last night, or, you know, just a really feeling of openness and belonging. And even if you hadn't sat at the table for a few weeks, you know, people would be like, where have

• 9:16Speaker 01

  you been? You know, it's always open arms. And some tough conversations. You didn't always agree, but you learned a lot. That was a place where I grew in my Black identity, and I challenged, I got challenged about, you know, what does it mean to be Black? My experience growing up in St. Louis isn't the same experience as someone who grew up as a first-generation, second-generation Nigerian-American. And what does that look like? Or someone who went to an all-Black high school, and what's their experience? When I went to an all-girls Catholic high school, like, what does that mean? And when I moved to Silicon Valley and Mountain View, which didn't really reflect St. Louis and Black, you know, Black diversity or anything, I felt disconnected from my community, and I was missing that sense and that feeling of warmth. And so, blavity was trying to

• 10:01Speaker 01

  bring that feeling back into our lives on a daily basis through content and connections and stories, and making it easier for people to really stay and build relationships with each other through the internet.

• 10:13Guy Raz?

  And to that point, Morgan, I mean, you know, there was Huffington Post and BuzzFeed and Vox and different companies that had verticals, but it sounds like, you know, you were saying there's nothing that speaks to black millennials and Gen Z'ers, and that really was the sort of the genesis and the catharsis behind kind of creating this.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  That's right. You know, there's certainly black legacy media organizations that I have so much respect for. I know you had Cathy Hughes here.

• 10:37Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  They've done a fantastic job. I also think that there's new generation and we use technology differently. And how do we continue to have that connectivity that we used to have with the radio or with local newspapers that were printed online? And what does it look like to have a truth house and a brand that people trust to help bring people together? And so that's what Blavity's core mission is.

• 11:00Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, you launched this business, I think you were just 24 years old. It takes a lot of courage for any 24-year-old to launch a business. Was there a moment of sort of a catalyst where you were like, I gotta do this? Because you had this incredible sort of horizon in the tech sector. You had this job at Intuit and probably the sky was a limit. But what was the thing that gave you the courage to say, no, I'm gonna give all that security up and I'm gonna take a risk and do this?

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I was feeling frustrated. I felt like, working in tech, I loved learning about the innovation and the process and the mindset of Silicon Valley. I think it is limitless in terms of, and it's so contagious to be around people who talk about making billion-dollar companies and building a technology platform that billions of users are going to use and changing people's lives. You know, that is so cool. And I didn't grow up around that in the Midwest. And so I loved Silicon Valley for that and what it gave me. I also felt like, as a young black woman, working at a tech company, I also felt constrained. I felt like I had to, I was transitioning my hair at the time into natural hair. And

• 12:10Speaker 01

  I just felt like I was constantly tiptoeing, being polite, not wanting to be too aggressive, but also being like, I'm smart. I have things to say. I have things to contribute. So I was wearing an extra layer that was Draining my energy every day when I went into work when all I wanted to do was build and create and be a part of this ecosystem. And then at the same time, I was sitting in San Francisco and I was watching my city burn when Mike Brown happened and I was watching the discrepancy between the news and mainstream news media and the coverage. And what was happening on the ground.

• 12:45Guy Raz?

  Ferguson.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  In Ferguson, right, um, which is, you know, right outside of the ci- the city of St. Louis, slightly north. So that felt, um, I felt helpless and so I wanted to use my skills. And the access and the information that I'm, that I had been learning through Silicon Valley, maybe naively, having only been there for two years. But here we are nonetheless. And I quit, you know, I quit my job and I worked on Blavity full time. We had already launched a version of it over the summer. But I really, at that point, you know, quit my job in, in the fall, right after Mike Brown happened.

• 13:17Guy Raz?

  I have to imagine that like a lot of media companies, you're in this kind of weird situation now because you probably are getting a lot of traffic to your site, right? There's a lot of interest. People are shut in, they're, they're, they want information. They're looking at media organizations. At the same time, like we are in this economic crisis, like we are also uh, suffering economically. So has that been your situation where on the one hand, you're like, your numbers are, are record highs, but the business side is, is hurting right now?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, one of the things I am incredibly grateful for is the new attention on stories and conversations that we have been having since the founding of Blavity. Right? We cover these stories of police brutality and death and murder. That's why we were created. You know, that was the final straw that I was like, we gotta do something, anything. We gotta do something. Um, and why not me? And I think a lot of us right now are also asking that question. It's like, we had to do something and why not me? And that is beautiful to see. And in fact, that's what we've been waiting for in so many ways is this moment. We've been writing these stories to deaf ears for so many years. So I think our editorial and our news team feels energized. But also that it's mentally draining, to your point, to work in an environment.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Where people are understaffed or under resourced and where that's exacerbated by the economic toll. And secondarily, for us as a black media company, you know, people are very sensitive about running ads or campaigns against black death or murder or social justice because that's not always ad safe or ad friendly. So I find myself constantly at this tension of running a business that's for profit with investors. I've raised, you know, over eleven million dollars, have fantastic investors that support the mission, but it is a for-profit entity and managing and honoring the people, the humans that I'm responsible for. And we've had to do layoffs that have been very difficult. We did salary reductions.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  All the things that many other media companies have done, we've had to go through as well. And so how do I reconcile that? You know, it's, it's very difficult.

• 15:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to reconcile that because you're, as I say, I mean, you're, you're getting record traffic, probably more traffic than you've ever had ever. And at the same time, you know, you're kind of forced to, to make some of these hard decisions.

• 15:37Guy Raz?

  Morgan, I, I read this such a cool story. Um, when you were a kid, you used to take Kool-Aid and make your own Fun Dip and sell it to other kids and you'd go to Costco and sell candy. And like you were an entrepreneur from, um, I, by the way, I loved Fun Dip. I didn't even know it's still around.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if it is, but it was my jam back then.

• 15:57Guy Raz?

  I loved Fun Dip. It was so great. And I love that. Kool-Aid Fun Dip. And so you were doing entrepreneurial things from the time you were a little girl. Did you always want to do that? Did you always think, I'm going to start a business one day?

• 16:08Speaker 01

  No, I didn't know a name for it. I don't even think when I really started Blavity, I was like, I'm an entrepreneur. Like, I just have always been someone who's like, that rule doesn't make any sense. The reason I did the Fun Dip and went to Costco is because the city made some sort of rule where there was no candy in the vending machines, as if that was going to prevent kids from having candy. I was like, well, that's a stupid rule. Is it illegal for me to sell candy to each other? Like, no? Okay, great. I've just always challenged the rules and asked the question, well, like, but why? You know, and like, what is this really solving for? And I've also, you know, always tried to bring people along with me, you know, in whatever journey it is, uh, for, for good or bad. You know, I also was the girl who got suspended for redistributing candy in that same school.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's, uh, sometimes I haven't always gotten the upside of, of, of a win.

• 16:59Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, we'll hear Morgan's best advice for entrepreneurs looking to raise venture capital and also what she wishes she knew when she started Blavity. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This, Resilience Edition from NPR.

• 17:20Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This, Resilience Edition. And my guest today is Morgan DeBon, the founder of Blavity. She's one of these people who can juggle a million things at the same time. When she's not running her company, she's giving other entrepreneurs advice about how to get their ideas off the ground. We're getting a bunch of questions in about entrepreneurship. And I know you do a lot of mentoring, which I want to talk to you about in a sec. But I want to get to this question from Catherine Togba-Woyi. She writes, I'm the founder of Black Parent Magazine. It's a media company created by Black parents for Black, mixed, foster, adopted LGBTQ parents of Black children. And she asks, how do I raise money for my platform? Like, she says she needs more staff, more resources.

• 18:03Guy Raz?

  Do you have any advice or suggestions for ways that she can think about bringing in some more financial resources to build up her company?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so raising money and venture funding, getting venture funding is very difficult. And it's something that I think increasingly has become more and more accessible to the Black community. And so I really encourage people to consider it and make sure that it's something that makes sense for your business. Also, venture funding isn't for every business model, right? You know, you have to very much be on a mission to build a $100 million-plus business and be able to get to $40, $50 million in revenue plus, right? I think that sometimes people may look at Blavity and say, well, it's a media company that's raised venture funding. And it's really more of a company that raised venture funding because we have a huge audience

• 18:54Speaker 01

  and we're building products, brands, experiences for that audience, one of which is media. And I think media alone as an industry is very difficult to get venture funding for. We've seen so many media Companies go out of business. Now, I say all of that to answer her question directly. Focus on your business model, figure out how you can scale without venture funding and focus on revenue. Because typically, having revenue, now that it is a little bit easier to get venture funding, people are going to look for a little bit more traction. So they're going to want to see that you have proven out that you can scale your audience, or you've proven out that you can scale out your revenue. So focus on those two things first. And then, there is a lot of, there's a lot of programs.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Founder Jim is one of them. I know Y Combinator has different programs. All Raise has different programs for minority entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs in general who want to learn how, more about venture funding. So definitely check those out.

• 19:49Guy Raz?

  When you get, you know, young college graduates coming up to you and saying, Morgan, I want to be like you. I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to jump into this. What is it that you wish you knew three, four, or five years ago that you now know that would have made it maybe just a little bit easier when you started?

• 20:06Speaker 01

  So many things, Guy. I didn't know anything. I mean, I didn't know the vocabulary. I didn't know any of the acronyms. And I think that's okay. I actually don't think you need to know all that stuff to get started. But I think that I would have wanted to maybe understand fully the venture funding model. Now, when you take venture funding, the only way people get their money back is if you exit. That's a very tough thing that I have to struggle with. Because that means that we are selling it to someone else. And that there's a constant push and drive towards that milestone. And that not necessarily wasn't the milestone that I set out to create for. I think I would have thought about that a little bit more and maybe changed the business a little bit earlier. I know they always say, well, don't worry about the outcome or who you're going to sell to when you're first raising money.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  I think it's important to think through those things, actually.

• 20:54Guy Raz?

  And obviously, I mean, another option could be to go public, like Kathy Hughes, you just mentioned. Urban One is a public company. But there are, obviously, there are all kinds of trade offs. Because as you say, your investors aren't giving you money because they're nice. They're giving you money because they want to return one day.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  That's right. And IPO, I mean, more kudos to Kathy for being a public company. But wow, the scrutiny, the, the personal scrutiny of, of many board of directors and, and public CEOs.

• 21:18Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I mean, Morgan, you're running a media company that not only was coping with the pandemic and then an economic crisis, but also a huge social justice crisis and reawakening, the most profound, important protest movement in the United States in at least 50 years. How is your team kind of just dealing with that emotionally? And how are you dealing with that? How have you been dealing with that emotionally?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, the week of, well, first it was Ahmad, and then it was Brianna, and then it was George. So we had a town hall that Friday, and I mean, I'll be honest with you, I broke down in tears, you know, as soon as I saw all their faces on that Zoom, you know? And my co-founders, I'm so grateful for them, Erin and Jeff, were able to carry the meeting because it's very heavy. So I think, you know, everyone's doing their best, but it's hard.

• 22:14Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and doubly hard because, I mean, because of what you're trying to do and what you're trying to say and who you're trying to reach. This is a question from Monica Rojas. She asks, how do you, and I think Monica's asking on her own behalf, how do you reach Black communities throughout the nation and not just in your city or your region or in your local area? Do you have any suggestions or advice for Monica?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  That's a great question. You know, I think that the internet's a beautiful place. I mean, you're just a hashtag away from reaching a lot of people. So, understanding how sub-communities group together on Twitter or Reddit or Instagram, even within Facebook groups, that's something that we've used to accelerate our growth is actually really focusing on the niche communities within our community because we found that the shares and the virality is much higher when you're actually niching down even further. So, think about kind of the core demographics and also look at the data. You know, we spent a ton of time looking at our Google Analytics, understanding our audience and our super-users, and understanding what they want and what they want to share.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  And I think that has given us more clarity about the kinds of things we need to continue to do to grow.

• 23:28Guy Raz?

  Morgan, I don't know how you do all these things because you've got all these verticals, and then you also have something called the WorkSmart Program. This is a program that you You do to help entrepreneurs of color. I mean, entrepreneurship in the United States in general actually has been declining since the 1980s and really acutely in communities of color. So through the work that you're doing, how do you sort of see a path forward? Like, um, like a resurgence in black entrepreneurship in, in America in, in 10 years from now? Like, do you see a path to that?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I started my Worksmart program because I was getting so many questions from entrepreneurs and I personally could not one to one advise everyone. And a lot of the questions were the same questions. And so I do these group calls and master classes where, you know, I can get hundreds of people and we can, you know, all talk at the same time. So it brings me a lot of joy and a lot of hope, I think, in terms of helping also just small business owners, which I think are a bit different than startup founders. So small business owners, which really are the backbone of our economy in so many ways, oftentimes don't have the resources, the tools and the access to information on how to use very simple things like Google Analytics or SEO or Asana for project management or Upwork for hiring contractors.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  So I try to just teach them the things that I've learned and used in my business to help me scale and grow so that they can kind of skip a few steps. My hope is that the impact is actually greater for them because they're, they're going from one employee to five employees, right? So that's really what I focus on. I, I am actually relatively hopeful. On the venture in the Silicon Valley side, there's never been a better time to raise a million to $5 million as a black founder in this country. You know, it took me a lot of no's to get $500,000 for Blavity and I had a million users at the time. If I went out today with that, I would raise 5 million because there's more venture funds of some minorities and women of color.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  There are more minority owned venture funds, which is also super critical, that have raised between 10 and 50 million dollars in funding, um, which is that seed stage. And so I think it's a great time to consider venture if, if that's something that's right for your business. Um, and then for small business owners, I am worried. I'm very worried because I think people may have been able to survive COVID. Maybe aren't able to survive a secondary close down. They don't have the access to capital from banks. So where do you float? You can't float from your family necessarily. We know the wealth gap in America is atrocious. So what happens? That worries me. So I think financing for small businesses, small business owners is something we need to focus on.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  I know it's very sexy to finance a black startup founder, but like, let's also do the small business owners.

• 26:14Guy Raz?

  I want to ask you about your your business model. And this is also a question from David Davidson on Facebook, which is, how are you able to continue to generate cash flow, especially now during the during this economic crisis?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Lavity, we've always had a diversified business because I did not want to be dependent on venture funding. So we've prioritized revenue at our core in terms of operating because it was important that we had multiple industries and multiple revenue streams. So one of the things that we've learned is that our enterprise clients and advertising agencies that work with us, they tend to want actually to go deep with our audience and our community. So they buy bundles. They'll buy integrations across multiple platforms. So thinking about, you know, okay, well, let's do a sponsorship here, display ads over here, a branded video series over here, and an influencer campaign on social media. And so that's allowed us to kind of weather the storm

• 27:10Speaker 01

  because as as one thing goes up, something else goes down. And similar with industries, there are some industries that are ramping up their spend, right? The audio industry, the food services industry. So also having a diversity of clients has helped us. Our travel clients, our transportation clients, not doing so well. But in other places, they're spending more money than they did before COVID.

• 27:32Guy Raz?

  I I do want to ask you one more question. This is from Walter Triplet from Facebook because I have this question too, which is, in five years from now, what do you want to take away from this moment that that you actually bring with you? You know, the way this moment has changed your leadership and your outlook? What were those things you want to take with you to the future?

• 27:51Speaker 01

  I think for me as a leader to listen more, I mean, I'm always learning and I'm always growing. So just continuing to challenge my own assumptions about what leadership can look like and also being a little less apologetic about some of the things that we've been able to accomplish. You know, I think we've been able to do a lot with a little and I'm very proud of the work that my team has accomplished and what we've been able to build together. So figuring out how we can continue to bring others along the way is something that's really important to me. And what does it look like for our employees to continue to grow? What does it look like for our community to continue to grow and develop? The future is very bright despite how dark some of the stories may be in the country.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  I am very hopeful that this is a moment in time where people can be more reflective and grow as individuals and as humans.

• 28:42Guy Raz?

  Morgan DeBon, co-founder of Blavity. Thank you so much for joining us.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 28:47Guy Raz?

  That's an excerpt from my conversation with Morgan DeBon, the founder of Blavity. To see our full interview, you can go to facebook.com/HowIBuiltThis. Just click on videos. And if you want to see all of our past live video interviews, you can find them there or at youtube.com/NPR. If you want to find out more about the How I Built This Resilience Series or other virtual NPR events, you can go to nprpresents.org. This episode was produced by Candice Lim with help from John Isabella, Julia Carney, Gianna Capadona, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Thanks for listening, stay safe, and I will see you in a few days. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This from NPR.