Break Free from Destructive Patterns, the Real Reason You Feel Stuck & How to Protect Yourself from Toxic People, with Mel Robbins!

Mel Robbins' Mind-Blowing Secrets on Mindset to Feel Better Emotionally & Spiritually! Learn How to Regulate Your Emotions in a Foolproof Way & Stop Letting Toxic People Control You: Is It Time to CUT THEM OFF? Mel Robbins, the mindset, motivation, & behavior change expert, reveals life-altering insights on how to Take Control of Your Emotions, Reprogram Your Brain, & Step into a Life of Power and & Opportunity! Mel's Life-Changing "Let Them" Theory – The Key to Boundaries & Peace! Struggling with difficult people? Learn to identify what’s truly in your control and what isn’t in a nanosecond, empowering you to let go of unnecessary stress and set healthier boundaries—especially with narcissists. STOP the internal struggle of feeling "stuck" & uncover the false narratives that keep you trapped in emotional turmoil. Mel also shares tips to Unlock the POWER of Your Brain to Attract Success & Mystical Experiences! Her unique perspective on science & spirituality will help you make sense of this cruel world while leading a simpler, more fulfilled life. The Secret to Controlling Your Emotions: Ride the Wave! Want more power in your life? Mel explains how to take control of your emotions & influence others—This simple technique will make you more powerful than even the most challenging person! Mel Robbins also breaks down: - Why People Get STUCK in Cycles of Abuse & How to Break Free - Why pressuring others to change NEVER works - Why Pain & Hardship Are ESSENTIAL for Your Kids' Growth - Why "Death is Another Birth": Her Unbelievable Experience with a Psychic Medium - Faking her way through law school as she struggled with ADHD & dyslexia - How she copes with her busy brain - Why she’s driven to show up for others thanks to her experience as a public defender This is an episode you don’t want to miss—prepare to unlock the secrets to your best life! Mel Robbins' latest book, THE LET THEM THEORY: https://www.melrobbins.com/letthemtheory BialikBreakdown.com https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ YouTube.com/mayimbialik https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTOocPnDh2YQZZwh86K2OxA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  For anybody that feels stuck, or tired, or you're last on your list, I got news for you. You're not the problem. Because when you do things out of guilt, you turn other people into the villain.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  When you do it because it makes you feel like a good person, or because it matters to you, you're now owning the power, and that changes everything. Anytime somebody pisses you off, or stresses you out, or you feel overwhelmed or stuck, you're gonna say, "Let them." It stops something stupid from draining your energy. You feel instant peace, because it's the ultimate boundary. And when you say "let them," you're not allowing somebody to hurt you. You're actually taking a step back, and you're recognizing what is happening. The power is not in trying to change what this person is doing. The power is saying, "Let them," and detaching from what that person is doing. The moment you let adults be adults, you're gonna be struck by how much time you actually have.

• 1:01Mayim Bialik?

  Hey, I just found out something astounding. Approximately 63% of those of you listening to or watching Myan Bialik's Breakdown are not subscribed. We know you're listening, and we know you're watching because of all of the awesome comments you leave telling us how Myan Bialik's Breakdown is helping you lead a happier and healthier life. We love that. But the best way to support our show is to subscribe. It's also the only way to get latest updates and to know when new episodes drop. So, anywhere that you listen to podcasts and on YouTube, please subscribe. Hit the bell icon so that you know when a new episode drops. Thank you so much, and on to the episode. Hi, I'm Myan Bialik.

• 1:36Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 1:37Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our Breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Today is the first episode that we are filming with my new hair. I just need to say that. It's very curly. So I don't want anyone being like, "What happened?" I cut my hair.

• 1:49Jonathan Cohen?

  New do, new you.

• 1:51Mayim Bialik?

  New do, new me.

• 1:55Mayim Bialik?

  Pretty spectacular episode we have for you here today. Now, I know we say this a lot. Like, "This is a great episode." However...

• 2:05Jonathan Cohen?

  This episode went totally differently than Myan had planned. This guest just sat down, and all of a sudden, we were in a different direction. The conversation started, and like...

• 2:19Jonathan Cohen?

  I don't even know how to describe it.

• 2:21Mayim Bialik?

  Well, the best way to describe it is if you've ever tried to change someone and it hasn't worked, guess what? We know why.

• 2:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Also, if you feel stuck, if you feel purposeless, if you feel lost, if you're struggling, if you're anxious.

• 2:38Mayim Bialik?

  How about if you're an adult who's still having temper tantrums and you don't know how to get out of that cycle?

• 2:45Jonathan Cohen?

  If you want to learn how to regulate your emotions in a way that most people have never been taught to do.

• 2:51Mayim Bialik?

  Do you know how to ride an emotional wave? Most of us don't. If you're wondering if cutting off your parents is the answer to your problems, if breaking up with that person, leaving that relationship, ending that friendship is the right solution, don't do anything until you listen to this episode.

• 3:09Jonathan Cohen?

  Also, how do you program your brain to notice more synchronicity? To program your brain to see things in a happier light, a more optimistic light, to find opportunity?

• 3:21Mayim Bialik?

  We are talking to none other than Mel Robbins. If you don't know who she is, you have to know who she is. The book that we're going to be talking about is The Let Them Theory, a life-changing tool that millions of people can't stop talking about. People are having this tattooed on their bodies. There's an entire collage in the book of all the different kinds of tattoos people have gotten that say, "Let them." We're going to find out how "let them" can transform, literally, any decision, any stuckness you're feeling. But we're also going to get to know a very different side of Mel Robbins. She cries more than once in this episode.

• 3:58Jonathan Cohen?

  She shares a very, very personal experience where she received guidance from the universe in a way that is really profound.

• 4:06Mayim Bialik?

  We talk about trauma, and I actually wasn't even sure if this book would get us there. It gets us all the places. Trauma, narcissism, her own personal struggles with ADHD and dyslexia, how she felt like a failure, how her whole life literally turned around in the last 15 years, and she's become one of the leading thinkers in this space and many other spaces she never thought she'd be allowed into. The conversation kind of starts in the middle of something, but please enjoy Mel Robbins as we welcome her to the Breakdown.

• 4:41Speaker 00

  Okay, so I was hosting a daytime talk show at CBS Broadcast Center. Right before COVID.

• 4:48Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 4:49Speaker 00

  And the backstory is my son had massive dyslexia. And our daughters were like, there's no fucking way he can go to the public high school. And so I had said to him, because he had bounced from elementary to a school for language-based learning, to then a tiny private school. Miserable. You can choose any high school you want. I thought he would choose something in Boston.

• 5:12Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  It's like, I think I want to go to the high school where Grandma lives. Like, that's in Vermont. You know, we live in Boston, right? And so we fought and fought and fought and fought, and it ended as a gigantic no, and all of us crying in the front of the house. So a couple of weeks pass, and I'm on my set at CBS Broadcast Center, and they have brought in this, uh, medium.

• 5:36Mayim Bialik?

  Do you normally talk to mediums?

• 5:38Speaker 00

  I love it. And I'm looking for the play here, right? How do you know?

• 5:43Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  And since our talk show was not successful, the audience was filled with homeless people that we paid. And so I knew who all the, you know, they were all there, but, you know, we didn't have an audience.

• 5:53Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  So she's not doing a background check.

• 5:54Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Meanwhile, I told nobody about what was going on. So she comes out and she-

• 5:58Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I just got chills already.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  And she looks like, like, imagine you've walked into Jay Jill, and you have a lovely person that comes and helps you. This is what-

• 6:09Mayim Bialik?

  Like a lady who works at a-

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Right. Long blade, long cardigan, bob, sensible. And so she explains that she, I guess she was electrocuted when she was a little kid, and she woke up in the hospital.

• 6:22Mayim Bialik?

  We've had, we've had people on this show who have extrasensory-

• 6:26Speaker 00

  Really?

• 6:27Mayim Bialik?

  ...abilities that develop after- From electrocution. Specifically from lightning strikes, yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  No kidding?

• 6:31Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so keep going.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  So she wakes up, and her dead relatives are around her bed in the hospital.

• 6:36Mayim Bialik?

  I want to talk to this woman.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  I'll get her.

• 6:37Mayim Bialik?

  I don't want to talk to you, I want to talk to her.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  And so, she, I don't blame you, she's way more interesting. So, she realizes she has this ability to communicate with people that have died. And she's had it her whole life. And I'm like, so there's, do people have dead people? She's like, oh yeah, you travel with two or three all the time. I'm like, what? And she said, and once I start communicating, it's gonna get extremely dense in here with people. And I'm like, well, how's this work? She goes, well, I'm just gonna walk towards somebody and start talking to the person that's with them. So, honest to God, the first reading, out of the gate, she steps up, she walks over to the audience over here, she asks four women to all stand up. I didn't even know these people were related. And she looks right at the woman on the end and says, does your mother know you're pregnant yet?

• 7:21Mayim Bialik?

  Stop, I can't.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  It gets, wait here, mom is at the end, goes like this. She goes like this. And she then goes, now, you've lost two children? And now the audience is on pins and needles. And the woman's like, and she said, well, the daughter that you lost

• 7:42Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Wants you to know that she's gonna, you're gonna, everything's gonna be okay, and she's gonna leave, but the son that you lost

• 7:48Mayim Bialik?

  That's always the message.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  Right, the son that you lost is here. Because he's connected to his brother. She contacted us two weeks later to tell us that she was carrying a boy.

• 7:59Mayim Bialik?

  Jesus.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  That's the first reading. So then it like gets crazy, she's connecting all these people in the audience, and then near the end of the show, she turns to me and she said, are you open to being read? And I said, of course. And she said, there's somebody standing next to you who is very adamant about wanting to talk to you. And I said, okay. And I have a friend who died by suicide, who has come to me in a number of situations. And so I assumed it was Fred. And she said, this person is a pilot, decorated military veteran, do you know who this might be? And I said, no. And then he said, are you sure? And I said, yeah, no, no, no, the only person in my family that's died that was in the military was my grandfather, but he was in the Navy. Could it be your grandfather? Nope.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  And then he says, well, he's getting agitated. And I said, okay, means nothing to me. And he said, well, does the letter K mean anything to you? I'm like, not really.

• 8:52Mayim Bialik?

  I can't.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  And then she said, what about the name Ken? And I said, well, that's what we call our daughter Kendall, she is named after her grandfather, Kenneth. Could it be Kenneth? I'm like, oh, absolutely not. And she said, why are you sure? I said, well, because Ken was an ad guy. He was like Mad Men era. If he had been in the arm, if he had been an air force pilot, I would have known it. And she said, he's saying verify. Now meanwhile, the control room has called my husband, Chris, and I hear in my little earpiece,

• 9:23Speaker 00

  we have Chris on the phone?

• 9:24Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Turns out, your father-in-law.

• 9:27Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Dreamt of being a pilot. And he tried out for the air force reserves in college and was denied because he was colorblind. A story I did not know. And that you could not look up. And this motherfucker was the kind of guy that would pick something like that. That was irrefutable. So I now know with cameras rolling and a live audience in front of me that my dead father-in-law is there with me.

• 9:53Mayim Bialik?

  Whatever, right.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  And she says now, I guess he has a lot of grandkids. And I'm like, mm-hmm. And she goes, and your son, your son is very important to him. And I'm like, mm-hmm. And she goes, I don't know what this means. I hope you know what this means. But he's here because he has a message for you. He's very, very worried about your son. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm like, listening. At this point, I can't even feel my body.

• 10:21Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  And she says, I don't know what this means. It's something about a nickname. Something's happening. There's something going on at a school. And you don't like it. And he's here to tell you, you have to trust your son.

• 10:40Mayim Bialik?

  Whoa.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  And I walked off that set and I called my husband. And I said, well, did you hear that? And he said, yes. And he goes, I have something else to tell you. And I said, what is that? He said, well, two weeks ago, my mother called me and my brothers and said she was going to downsize and sell the house in Vermont and asked us if any of us would want, you know, to potentially buy it. And my brothers passed and I told her that we had decided to stay in Boston. And I said, well, why don't you call your mother back and tell her to get an appraisal? Because I'm not arguing with your dead father. We're moving to Vermont. And so we did.

• 11:16Mayim Bialik?

  That's unreal.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:18Mayim Bialik?

  So was this a moment when you went from like, I'm a skeptic to like now I believe?

• 11:23Speaker 00

  Oh, I a thousand percent believe.

• 11:25Mayim Bialik?

  So what, how do you, you're, you're one of the most logical, rational, well-thought-out brains.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Oh my God, thank you for saying that.

• 11:34Mayim Bialik?

  But how, so how do you reconcile this with, you know, dead people walk among us?

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Um, I believe.

• 11:42Mayim Bialik?

  I have no problem with it personally, I'm just asking how you, well, think about it.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  Even if you do, I'm gonna let you have a problem with it.

• 11:47Mayim Bialik?

  That's true.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  Right, you're, you are allowed to have your own opinions.

• 11:50Mayim Bialik?

  No, but I.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Here's how I rationalize it, I personally believe death is another birth. And that when you're inside a human body, in your mother's body, you are about to be born into a world that you have no consciousness about. And I believe the same is true about death, that there is a world you're about to be born in that you have no consciousness of. And I also happen to be married to a death doula. And we are extremely, sort of energetically minded people. And I feel that there is a, if the word is quantum, or if the word is energy, or if

• 12:34Speaker 00

  the word is spirituality, that there is something so much deeper going on that we are all connected to.

• 12:41Mayim Bialik?

  Where does that come from? Like, for you personally, are you a person like, oh, I had a psychedelic journey, it was profound, or I meditate, or, like, where, because not everybody has that, or they need a lot of assistance to get there?

• 12:55Speaker 00

  I think that, you know, trying to make sense of a world that doesn't make sense, and, I don't, I don't know why I'm gonna get so goddamn choked up, I, um, I'm thinking a lot right now about how overwhelming life feels for so many people.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  And for better or worse, I have always been a person that has felt the joy or suffering of people at a very deep level. And I remember, early in my career, I was a public defender for Legal Aid. And I would meet the people that I was assigned to represent at their bail hearing. And they didn't pick me. And, you know, you're in a situation with another human being that is very stressful and high stakes. And when you're at an arraignment where somebody is being formally read their rights and the charges against them, and then you have a bail hearing,

• 14:00Speaker 00

  they consider both the charges and they consider somebody's record, but they also consider your ties to a community. And as a young lawyer for Legal Aid, it was absolutely devastating to walk out into that courtroom over and over again and see how many times no one was there. No one was there. And it left this huge mark on me. And I think it's made me be the kind of person that really wants to live my life in a way, where I show up for people. And where I make sure in every interaction, whether I am thanking somebody who's cleaning a public bathroom as I'm walking out of it,

• 14:44Speaker 00

  or last night, you know, we had an Uber driver and I'm cleaning up the back of the car because I don't want to leave my mess for this person. And there's just a... There's no doubt in my mind that we are all connected. And in times where life is overwhelming, I think the opportunity that you have is to be a light in the dark. And I think that's...

• 15:12Speaker 00

  That's a lot of what I try to do.

• 15:14Jonathan Cohen?

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• 15:17Mayim Bialik?

  Have you noticed that most wireless bras just completely miss the mark? I've tried many and they either stretch as you wear them, the band rolls up, the straps are always slipping, but not a problem anymore because I have the Honeylove X-Balance Bra. It's soft and supportive, but without any underwire. It's so comfortable, I don't even feel the need to rip it off the second that I get home. Honeylove is an independent, female-founded brand with products designed by women who actually wear them. They don't just make shapewear and bras either. They have tanks, bodysuits, underwear, all with supportive structure, smoothing fabrics, and premium finishes. Honeylove's got a style for everyone. You can also try their crossover contour bra, which features their best-selling wireless crossover bra design,

• 16:01Mayim Bialik?

  plus built-in molded light foam pads for extra support and a contoured shape. Honeylove's now offering a crossover triple bra bundle. So if you want a refresh on your top drawer, you can get huge savings by buying three at once. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off Honeylove at honeylove.com/breaker. That's honeylove.com/breaker. After you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

• 16:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Experience new standards and comfort and support with Honeylove.

• 16:33Mayim Bialik?

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• 17:19Mayim Bialik?

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• 18:00Mayim Bialik?

  Starting my day with this easy, health-focused task reminds me to continue to make healthy choices the rest of the day. For a limited time, visit drinkag1.com/breakdown and get a free immune support bundle, including omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 with your first subscription of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/breakdown. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Myobiox Breakdown sent you.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Especially in launching this podcast, I think I've always had a very busy brain between the ADHD and the dyslexia, and I've only recently started to understand just how intelligent I am. Mainly because people that I respect reflect it back to me in ways that I can take in. And I'm just trying to make sense of a world where there's a tremendous amount of suffering. And the way that I often escape it for myself is by tapping into something deeper than the day-to-day stuff that we are all caught up in, that ultimately doesn't matter. And every time I simplify things and I step out in nature and I drop into a present moment

• 19:10Speaker 00

  or I take a minute and I really just experience the photos of the two of you and what your life might be like, I'm reminded of the true things that matter in life. And so I think that my opinion about spirituality and what happens when we die and the ability to connect with things that we cannot explain.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  Is how I'm making sense of a world that often feels cruel and unfair.

• 19:43Mayim Bialik?

  Do you have a god concept?

• 19:45Speaker 00

  I don't have a god concept as a thing or a entity. Like, I'm not a dogma person. And I believe that your connection to faith is deeply personal and it's not in a building or in an organized religion. And so I believe in something bigger, but I don't know what that is.

• 20:06Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I'm sure this is not, you're like, I didn't know we were gonna have this. No, it's not even on my itinerary of things to speak to you about. What do you believe in? Well, no.

• 20:13Jonathan Cohen?

  Mayim likes an itinerary too, so this is a great little dog leg.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  What do you believe in?

• 20:20Mayim Bialik?

  I, I was raised, you know, I'm, I'm part of an ethnic people that has a very, you know, a large umbrella, but also a kind of specific dogma.

• 20:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:33Mayim Bialik?

  You know, associated with it. And my, my grandparents were immigrants from Eastern Europe and on my mom's side, they were very, very religious. And so, you know, there wasn't really a separation for my mom's generation between sort of your identity and your religi- you just were, right? It's what was stamped on your passport and didn't allow you out of the country. You know, like, that's sort of what I was raised with. My parents were born during World War II, also a very interesting, you know, time, post Holocaust and all these things. So I was raised with a lot of tradition, a lot of ritual. But I will say, my parents were not believers. And I had a very specific sense of identification

• 21:17Mayim Bialik?

  with the god of my understanding, which, the way that I was taught it, it's everywhere. Whatever it is, I was not taught, you know, what a lot of people think about if you're raised as a Jewish person. Like, I wasn't taught a man in the sky. Like, of course, that existed and, you know, Michelangelo's.

• 21:35Mayim Bialik?

  Paintings didn't help, you know, like it's, there's a real, you know, anthropomorphization of God, which I wasn't raised with. I really was taught that like, there's, there's something and it's, it, it both is inside of you. Yeah. And it also makes you up. Yeah. And also it's the air around you and it's this indescribable thing. I took on a more religious life and also a life of more study, like traditional text study, which leads you to mystical places. Yeah. And from that research and, you know, study, which I did for years and years through college

• 22:13Mayim Bialik?

  and, and graduate school, I found that what felt, what I felt to be true was true in terms of teachings. And it wasn't just Jewish teachings. It's the same teachings that mystics of every tradition have all resonated around. Of course, yeah. Which like to me, you know, one of the main credos of the Jewish faith is that we're one. God is one, everything's one. And so it's kind of been like this, like, you know, clicking into place of like all these things. Like, I always felt that every religion has their expression, their prophet. You know, the Baha'i faith always really appealed to me because it was like, oh, every prophet is true. Yeah.

• 22:59Mayim Bialik?

  Then they had a prophet that they say is true now. I stop at Moses. You know, that's my thing. But, um, but that notion of we're all trying to make sense. Right. Of a world that does not make sense. And in ancient times, it was like, what's an earthquake? Why does the sun come up? And for us, it's like, why am I here? Do I belong? And what's the purpose, you know, of my existence? And should I buy the $18 smoothie from Aravon? Um, but those are all kind of paths to.

• 23:27Mayim Bialik?

  The same source, it's the same source that's, you know, kind of guiding us. And I, I've always felt like I'm a religious person, not just a spiritual person. There's nothing wrong with being a spiritual person, but I happen to love the intellectual aspects of my, you know, tradition. And for me, you know, the intellect is divine, like it's a divine practice to study. It's a divine practice to do work on yourself, like that's all sort of built in.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  I talk about this for hours because I do think that, that if you think about the purpose of it, if it's not blind obedience,

• 24:07Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  it's actually to stir up something deeper inside you and a connection to something bigger than you.

• 24:13Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and also to use human relationships to try and model a divine relationship, which is one of love, compassion, open-heartedness, yes and not no, you know? So to me, like, that's, that's the lesson that every religious tradition ultimately is trying to teach. But when you think about what really is, and when you think about this source, like we're all just using whatever language, whatever culture, whatever biases, whatever patriarchy was in place to try and communicate that. And yeah, religion is used to control and that's a thing. But I'm less bothered by that, the more I have a spiritually sound kind of identity. It doesn't bother me as much. Like, there are things that bother me for sure about every religious practice and in

• 24:58Mayim Bialik?

  particular mine. But yeah, it bothers me less because there's a, there's a peace, you know?

• 25:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Both of the podcasts, yours and, and this podcast are trying to help people understand themselves,

• 25:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:13Jonathan Cohen?

  live better lives, overcome a lot of the suffering that, you know, you were feeling at the beginning.

• 25:21Jonathan Cohen?

  And science has come up with more science-based tools, more proof, more ways in which our brain is wired for ecstasy. And if we do particular practices, we're going to have less anxiety, more optimism, feeling more joy. And also, we seem to, you know, need, a lot of people need the science-based tool. Yet, on the other side, there are the mystics, who have been trying to help people feel better, live better, find the path that they're on, find the synchronicity in life. Like, what version of your life would have happened had you said no to Vermont?

• 25:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Right? What struggle might have you, you have been in with your son? And so you had this divine moment of

• 26:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:01Jonathan Cohen?

  direction change and guidance. And a lot of people are looking for guidance too, right? Like, there is no science-based tool for looking for guidance.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Well, you know what's interesting about science? And interesting about research, which I believe deeply in. And I am not a scientist. And I do not do academic research. I mean, when you have 21 million followers and the size podcasts that both you and I have, you have a massive focus group.

• 26:28Mayim Bialik?

  They like a lot of funny things. We sometimes can't really put our finger on it.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  But here's the, here's the thing that I think a lot about. That I think that there's this interest in science because we're looking for a reason to believe that actual, simple things that we used to do will work now. You know, I've been thinking lately a lot about the fact that, let's just say that we were still living in a world where cigarettes could be marketed to children and everybody could smoke everywhere. And instead of going after the companies for predatory practices and creating a product that is addictive and then marketing it

• 27:07Mayim Bialik?

  More addictive than nicotine on its own.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, exactly. And instead of creating regulations for public health, we just let her, you know, we just were like, that's it. Everybody smoke and we know this is happening, but screw it. And now we're gonna overindex. And we're gonna have a head of this and a head of that. We're gonna try to get people to care about this. And I see that happening with social media. I see it happening with the way that we're living our lives now. And we're allowing ourselves to be sucked into our phones. And we are allowing ourselves to be very reclusive because of the hangover that's happened. That's very, very real, that most people haven't come out of from lockdown.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  And that I find that one of the important things about the research and science is it elevates the importance of simple things like taking a walk. It elevates the importance of things that we all know. We know the importance of sleep. But when you truly understand why it matters, it then explains everything else that is unraveling about your life. If you're only getting four hours of sleep because you sleep next to your phone and you're constantly waking up. And so I, it's weird to me because the advice is very simple. The advice is the same stuff that our grandparents were doing. For the most part, not necessarily in psychology

• 28:38Speaker 00

  and not necessarily with parenting and emotional regulation. But when it comes to health, it's like we have so overindexed in the wrong direction and the way that we're living our lives that I feel that science is a reminder that these things that you'd rather not do actually work.

• 28:57Jonathan Cohen?

  100%. We spoke to Huberman and it was like, there's a playbook, a manual for the human body. And there are like some basic principles that

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:06Jonathan Cohen?

  a lot of people are missing and therefore

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:08Jonathan Cohen?

  have negative repercussions. The kind of not flip side, but slightly the edge of that is to be so reliant on science.

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:17Jonathan Cohen?

  That we miss some of the mystical adventure.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:21Jonathan Cohen?

  Like.

• 29:21Mayim Bialik?

  Well, or that if science can't prove it, it's not real.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  Well, that then that brings us back to faith.

• 29:27Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  Which is the act of believing in something without proof.

• 29:30Jonathan Cohen?

  And I would argue, you know, your experience of having that interaction kind of blows a lid off of skepticism and may say, well, it kind of restructures or might restructure your understanding of the nature of reality.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  But if you think about this from a neuroscientific perspective, right? And you really look at the brain, and we just had Dr. Doty, and you know this better than me, so I would be citing other people's research. But if you look at the mechanism in terms of filtering in the brain and the job of filtering information, you can increase mystical experiences in your life because your brain is designed to show you more of what you're looking for. And when you open up your mind and your arms to a possibility that there is a different way to live, that all around you, there are little clues that are there for you to see

• 30:28Speaker 00

  if you are telling yourself you want to see them. And one of my favorite ways to do this is to just take on a game where you look for hearts every day. Like whether it's a stain on the floor, or it's the shape of a leaf, or it's a pattern in a brick, and you will start to notice that the world shifts and your brain starts to show you things, and some of which you can explain through neuroscience, and some of which you just open yourself up to believing, because I'm going to give you another one. So we moved to Vermont, and my husband is getting his master's in spiritual psychology. And one of his assignments is to do a paper on a mystic. And so the professor gives him a list of mystics, and one of the people listed is Bill W. from AA.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  So Chris digs in to the research on Bill W.

• 31:17Mayim Bialik?

  I was just literally talking about this two hours ago.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  And.

• 31:21Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  Bill W. grew up in the town we grew, we moved to. And as Chris is researching this and reads about his grandfather, who was a huge drunk and very abusive, he had this unbelievable story happen where he drives the horse and buggy up a mountain, goes and hikes up to the top and has this crazy life-altering experience, drunk, and then comes running down the mountain into the center of this little town, East Dorset, and runs into a church and basically explains that he's seen God, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The whole thing changed Bill W.'s life. I live on that mountain.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  We had no idea.

• 32:10Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  So I believe that when you truly understand the magic and the power that you have, and you start to understand the power of your mind to show you what you're looking for, and too many of us don't realize that you're always programming your mind, either for something negative or something positive. And when you understand simple things that you can do to either take better care of yourself or be better in your relationships or utilize some of the basics in your body and your mind, it opens up a completely different experience of life. And so the more you lean into the mystical and the more you lean into

• 32:55Speaker 00

  seeing signs and really calling out the coincidences and celebrating them, which only magnifies your brain's intensity around seeing it again, like the fact that you were like, "I was just talking about it. I'm not surprised at all." "I actually feel like I'm meeting you now even though I've admired you from afar because this is the moment that we're supposed to have our audiences meet and you and I are supposed to meet and the synergies are supposed to happen." And when you go through life believing that,

• 33:27Speaker 00

  unbelievable things happen.

• 33:29Mayim Bialik?

  I wonder if you can talk a little bit about,

• 33:34Mayim Bialik?

  Kind of perspective and framing. You know, you talk, you talk a bit about sort of framing in terms of what you expect, what you, I mean, for lack of a better word, what you can manifest. Can you talk a bit about, in terms of when you think of what ails people, how much of it is about literally perspective shifting? Because a lot of people feel like, oh, if I had the money, right? I'd have this, or I would do that, or if I had more time, or if I had a nanny, or if I didn't have kids, right? But how much of it is actually a shift that you can do all on your own, just between your own two ears?

• 34:14Speaker 00

  So, the first thing, I'm going to answer your question, but I want to say something first. That

• 34:23Speaker 00

  everything that I'm about to say will shift your perspective. It doesn't change the very real circumstances that you're dealing with. But shifting your perspective is essential. Because until you actually believe that through your attitude or your actions, you can have a positive influence on any problem, or any situation, or any circumstance, or any discrimination, or any political environment that you're in, until you actually get to the point where you believe that your thoughts and actions could truly matter, you won't do anything. See, I think the biggest thing standing in people's way is hope. It's not the ability to change that's stopping people.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  It's the opinion that it doesn't matter anyway. And so, a lot of what I think about and what I really am trying to give people is a borrowed sense of belief. Because I do believe that absolutely anybody can make small changes to the way that they think and to the actions that they take, and those small changes truly do have the power to shift everything. But if I can't get you to first have a little bit of hope that it could work for you...

• 35:47Speaker 00

  You're never gonna do it.

• 35:49Jonathan Cohen?

  Because they stack.

• 35:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:51Jonathan Cohen?

  They're cumulative.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Well, because it's so easy to go, well, that that never works for a person like me. That's easy for you guys because you're the host of Jeopardy and you're a neuroscientist. Or that's for people like that, but not someone like me. And so until you have that little door open that maybe, just maybe, this could work. And there are ways that you can get somebody to do that. You can basically show them someone that was in very similar circumstances. And how small shifts work for somebody that was just like you or who was in an even worse situation. You can use science to say, well, you may feel a certain way, but this is what the research actually says.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  But that's the first step. Is suspending doubt, resignation, and the evidence that you have that nothing's worked? And having a small moment of personal faith. That I have no evidence based on my history that this change could stick or it could make a difference. But for some reason, I'm gonna have faith in myself and in the actions that I take, and I'm gonna trust in that.

• 37:08Mayim Bialik?

  It really struck me when you mentioned that you didn't think of yourself as intelligent until more recently. Because obviously, I assume with everything you've accomplished and everything, that that was a prerequisite, which clearly it's not, right? There are ways that you can still achieve even having reservations, right? About your potential. But I wonder if what you're talking about, is it a version of a sort of imposter syndrome? Where people believe like, that's not for me, or I'm not good enough? Like, is it a version of that?

• 37:44Speaker 00

  I don't know. I, I, um, I think it's more primal than that. I, I just, I think that, you know, we are, we get into our patterns. And even if what you know is making you miserable, it's still what you know.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  And if you look, and you know this better than I do, I'm just citing research from people that have come on the show and that I've dug into for the book. But if you really accept as fact that human beings are hardwired to move towards what feels easy in the moment and to also move instinctually away from what feels hard, what you know, even if it's making you miserable, is easy.

• 38:32Mayim Bialik?

  It's why it's hard to get out of a relationship even when you know it's bad.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  It's why it's hard to get out of bed in the morning when you dread the day you're waking up into.

• 38:42Jonathan Cohen?

  I also think it's a little bit of a failure of imagination, not to, not to make it someone's fault, but when we aren't shown another possibility, like that's all that exists. So my example is that at 17 years old, I burnt three of my fingers on a toaster oven. And my sister, who was on her own magical journey to recover from decades of fibromyalgia and being unable to walk and who changed her life drastically, she cupped my fingers and the burns that I started to see immediately from singeing the blisters were healed. And I knew that she had done something that like opened up an area of magic. And I turned

• 39:26Jonathan Cohen?

  to her and I'm like, I want superpowers. Like, that's pretty fricking cool.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Wait, like, you're talking like superhero type, and it's...

• 39:34Jonathan Cohen?

  And I joked with her at the time. I'm like, do I need to hum, chant? Like, she was, you know, this was 25 years ago-ish, and she was meditating and doing yoga and doing all the stuff that's much more normal now. And back then in Toronto, in a fairly much more conservative world, like she was way out there. And we would tease her a lot and she wouldn't, I didn't really have the language to explain what she was doing. And in that moment, like, and I, and I even think to myself, how real was that? Did I really see the blisters? But

• 40:06Speaker 00

  So you're gaslighting yourself.

• 40:08Jonathan Cohen?

  A little bit because it like it's really starts to push against the nature of reality.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  The scientist in me is very uncomfortable with this conversation, but yes.

• 40:16Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, exactly, right?

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:18Jonathan Cohen?

  It's like, well, what is real? Did you really see the blisters? Did you make up the fact that you had a miraculous healing moment? But there was a version of me that went to take out a pizza slice from the toaster oven, singed these three fingers on my right hand, looked and was about to go run them under cold water and immediately saw the circles forming. Had my sister at the table, sat down, she said, let me hold and cup your hands. And in 10 minutes, I pulled my hands away and those were gone. And that sent me down a path of what else is possible in the world. And I spent the next however many years exploring every modality and studying with the person she studied with.

• 41:01Jonathan Cohen?

  And I spent 15,000 plus hours doing hands on work to start to say like, I want to know the formula for this.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  I believe you. And here's what I also believe. That the human body has such an extraordinarily intelligent design. And there is, I don't think it's a function of a lack of imagination.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  I personally believe that most of us are literally eight year old kids stuck in big bodies. And we have not evolved from the coping mechanisms. And a lot of our views about love and personal responsibility and boundaries from that age. And that people only know what they know.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  And it's very hard to get someone to see a bigger possibility for themselves. And so you were shown that through that experience with your sister. And a lot of people live a life that is lived inside a very small circumference. If you look at the research around how few friends people have, if you look at the fact that people are working from home now, if you look at what, you know, people are exposed to in their childhood, that shapes who you become. And for a long time, I think one of the reasons why I never really thought about myself as

• 42:46Speaker 00

  being all that intelligent is because I was really a walking red flag. I mean, I was a very toxic person, and I don't like to label other people. I typically would say toxic behavior. But I, the result of having an incident of childhood trauma in the fourth grade, where I woke up with another kid on top of me, and burying that experience, and then not knowing that I had dyslexia and ADHD, and I'm part of this lost generation of women who are, for like a couple decades, they missed, they had no idea that there was dyslexia

• 43:29Speaker 00

  and ADHD because they had only studied boys in the 1970s around ADHD.

• 43:33Mayim Bialik?

  Which goes for most of our health issues as well. Correct. Just like, how does our body work?

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Correct, and women are still not included in the clinical trials because of our hormone issues. And so it's sort of like, they do medication like a golf tee. We'll put the ladies on a lower dose, we'll put the dudes up here. So there is so many things that can be explained, and I didn't know.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  When you have dyslexia or ADHD, and it is not actually addressed, what develops? Anxiety. And that's what I got treated for. And the underlying issue is always dyslexia and ADHD. And when I look at the research on ADHD, I have the particular type of ADHD that has a high correlation to extremely risky and impulsive behavior, and to alcohol. So that explains why I was basically an alcoholic during college and law school. It explains why I cheated on every boyfriend. I just thought I was a horrible human being. And so I was in this trap.

• 44:32Mayim Bialik?

  And there was no language in the vernacular to correct that.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, no. And so I... And this is the thing about people that are stuck. Because I have been stuck so many times in my life that when you're someone who's stuck, you're not actually stuck. You're in deep conflict with yourself. Do you want to know the hardest working person in a classroom? It's the person who's struggling. It's not the person who's getting great grades. It's the person who doesn't get it.

• 44:57Mayim Bialik?

  The teacher.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, the teacher. And we look at people who are stuck, and we think that, oh, you must be complacent, or you must be still. No, they're... People know when their health is out of whack. People know when they're giving up on themselves. People know when they're not thriving at work. People know when they've given up on their dreams. People know when you're in a relationship that is a relationship where you're retreating in a way where you don't deserve it. But you're in conflict because you don't know how to get out of this pattern of behavior or this situation that you're in. And so then what starts to happen is you start to develop a narrative to explain it. And there is this phenomenon in psychology, which I'm sure you're aware of.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  This is from Dr. Paul Conti at Stanford, who, as you know, you know, wrote the big book about trauma and was Lady Gaga's psychiatrist, and super brilliant. And he's the first person that came on the podcast that talked about something called attribution. Which basically means with all the intelligent, amazing design of the human being, I didn't know this, that there's one massive flaw. And the massive flaw is that children do not have the attribution ability yet. Which means if adults are psycho around you or in a bad mood, you have no cognitive ability to attribute it to them and not to you.

• 46:20Mayim Bialik?

  Hundred percent. We talk about this a lot because the only skill of a child is to try and make it right.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:28Mayim Bialik?

  And the last thing a child will think is I can actually change anything, right? You get a false sense of power, especially if you grow up in alcoholism of like, if I do this, she'll behave this way. If I do that, he'll do that.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Well, that's survival.

• 46:42Mayim Bialik?

  Right. It's like. Well, but ultimately, this is, it's an extension of a survival mechanism where if I complain about them, I'll get hit in the face. If I complain about this, it's not going to change. It's going to get worse. I'm going to be punished, right? So the, this is what I always say. The only person that there is no recourse for abusing is yourself.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:04Mayim Bialik?

  As a child, no one can tell you, don't do that. No one can tell you, you're not to blame. It's a perfect cycle of what to do with those angry feelings and those scared feelings and all of that. Absolutely.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Which is why there are so many of us that reach adulthood and at multiple and various moments throughout your life, you find yourself unhappy or stuck or frustrated or lost or in a broken situation and you somehow think it's all your fault.

• 47:38Mayim Bialik?

  Or behaving badly with yourself, which just reinforces it.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  And then the inability to.

• 47:43Mayim Bialik?

  I wasn't saying.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  No, it's true, but it's like, no, but it's absolutely true. And then because you can't stop yourself, because you don't actually understand what to do.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  You literally stay trapped in it and you think there's something wrong with you. And so for me, back to the intelligence thing, I say to myself, how could I possibly be that smart and that intelligent if I'm constantly doing things that hurt me or other people?

• 48:10Mayim Bialik?

  And it's also confirmation bias. It's just like with the hearts. If you're looking for hearts and you find hearts, great. If you're looking for ways to show I'm a fuck up, you're gonna find it at every opportunity, even if that's not what's happening, right? So we were having a discussion the other day and he was like, oh, I was just gonna fuck it up. And I was like, that's, I wasn't saying you're gonna fuck it up, but if his narrative is, I fuck things up, you're gonna see it even in places that it doesn't exist. And then you get into like, why are you being so defensive? Why are you attacking me? Well, I'm actually not, right? It's like, sorry.

• 48:42Jonathan Cohen?

  You did a very good job de-escalating that conversation, by the way. I was really proud of you.

• 48:45Mayim Bialik?

  You were on another planet. I tried to Byron Katie him. I'm like, but is that true? But is it true? And he's like, I feel it's true. I'm like, Byron Katie didn't tell me what to do when he says that. I feel it's true. I don't know.

• 48:57Jonathan Cohen?

  I want to ask about dyslexia.

• 48:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:00Jonathan Cohen?

  I grew up with a generalized learning disability in the second grade. I was learning Hebrew and English. Hebrew was going great, English not so well at all.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Also French, they're supposed to teach you as well.

• 49:10Jonathan Cohen?

  Also was learning French. None of that was working for me. My mother, who was a psychoeducational consultant, was always like, you're so bright and always very verbal.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Yes, fixed mindset. Here we go.

• 49:22Jonathan Cohen?

  So smart. And I'm like.

• 49:23Mayim Bialik?

  I can't speak in any language.

• 49:25Jonathan Cohen?

  This kid, Adam Spitz, is reading books like this and I cannot. And I can't get through school and I don't know what they're asking me and I'm frustrated and angry and starting to lash out.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:38Jonathan Cohen?

  How does someone, well, first, what did your dyslexia look like? And second, how does someone with dyslexia go to law school? And that's an enormous level of reading.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  I have no idea. I basically almost failed. Like I literally, there's this crazy story where you, after first year, I don't even want to tell you this story, it's so embarrassing. I applied to law school, let's just be real. I applied to law school because my boyfriend at the time had gotten into graduate school and I was working as a temp at a law firm and I freaking hated it. But I didn't know what else to do and I didn't want to get left behind. So I applied to all these law schools. I get into Boston College Law School. I get there and I'm like, this is not for me. But what else am I gonna do? And so I sit and like a lot of people, I literally faked my way through it. I would sit in the library for hours and talk to people.

• 50:30Jonathan Cohen?

  That's what I did. I just would talk to as many people.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  And then I would panic and stay up all night. And I would try to write the paper. And then I would go to class and my strategy, because the thing about people who are dyslexic is if you don't opt out and go, I'm losing hope, this isn't for me, and you opt out, you find a strategy. Mine was to talk first. So if you raise your hand first and have something to say, you don't get called on. And so that's how I faked my way through it. But I remember everyone was applying for those law review things. What a joke. And I am writing the article to try to be on Law Review, even though I hate to do law. Or I hate to write. I don't know I have dyslexia yet.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  I'm smoking cigarettes, I'm drinking like every night, the bottle of wine, the cigarettes. I'm drinking coffee to hydrate. Like it was just terrible.

• 51:24Mayim Bialik?

  It's a diuretic, you know.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  Did it? Oh, is it? Okay, well, so, so I pull an all-nighter to finish this 30-page paper so that I can apply to be on Law Review. And I realized I have no printer paper. And this thing is due in approximately half an hour. So I take out, no joke, a spiral-bound notebook.

• 51:51Jonathan Cohen?

  No.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  And I rip out the pages. Have you feed it through? And I feed it through and the last page printed on a diagonal. And then I took a paper clip and I drove to the school and I slid it underneath the door. Like, can you imagine what they thought when they saw that thing? And so I stumbled my way through law school, hating every minute of it. And I get to third year and I discover mock trial. And lo and behold, I was fantastic at it because I had been unknowingly making my way through school by being hyperverbal.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  And so

• 52:36Mayim Bialik?

  Which other people would call overcompensating.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:39Mayim Bialik?

  But in your case, it was compensating appropriately.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:42Jonathan Cohen?

  And I would guess that you can listen to the lecture and regurgitate and keep all of that information, huge auditory processing capability.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Well, I think one of the reasons why one of my superpowers now is taking highly intellectual and complex topics and distilling it down to this is because it's what I had to train myself to do. Because I was gonna need to recall something, so I came up with all kinds of ways to visualize things and sticky little metaphors and things that would help me remember. Because otherwise, I couldn't do it.

• 53:15Mayim Bialik?

  What did your dyslexia look like?

• 53:17Speaker 00

  I don't even know.

• 53:18Mayim Bialik?

  Like, as a kid, could you not spell?

• 53:22Speaker 00

  I don't remember.

• 53:23Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  Like, I don't remember a lot of my childhood. I'm one of those people that have almost no memories. And that's because, I think, from the fourth grade on, after that incident of being sound asleep and waking up to have an older kid, you know, on you, I disassociated and I lived in a constant state of being on edge. So I wasn't present for a lot of my childhood. And I've come to learn it's a very common experience.

• 53:49Mayim Bialik?

  So it's funny because, I mean, I, like I said, I had a, an agenda of what our conversation was gonna look like. You've covered a couple of things unwittingly, without even knowing what was on my list. The eight-year-old was something I really wanted to talk about. I'm glad. What if we're all just eight years old? But one of the things, I read a lot of books. I'm the, Jonathan calls me the robot. Like, you

• 54:11Jonathan Cohen?

  You can literally wave a book in front of her and she's right in.

• 54:14Mayim Bialik?

  No, but like, I, I, I was, I do, I read quickly and I, um, but anyway, I read a lot of books, I read a lot of books for this podcast. And that's kind of, that's my job here. I read the books and

• 54:29Mayim Bialik?

  Almost every book that I've read in the three years that we've been doing this, it talks about trauma. Talks about trauma, talks about childhood, this. It's like, it's somewhere in there. I was like, I don't know the last time I read a book that didn't kind of go there. And so it was really interesting that you mentioned it because it exists for everyone on some level. You know, either capital T or lowercase t. And we've had Gabor Maté on, obviously, and we've talked about it a lot. That was one of the things, though, that I, as I, as I went through the book, that I was like, but what about, but what about if you had trauma? But what, right? And I wonder if you can sort of contextualize, because you don't have to talk about it. It's still in there, right?

• 55:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:14Mayim Bialik?

  And I think what's so, you know, the reason that people say things like, this radically changed my life, I refuse to live any differently. The reason people are tattooing this, let them, all over the world, right? The people are having this tattooed on them. The reason is because it works kind of no matter what.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:34Mayim Bialik?

  So I wonder if you can speak to, though, you know, the people who aren't like the high achievers, who are like, I'm ready to take it to the next level, but people who really are finding themselves stuck or, you know, dealing with like, I'm the child of narcissistic parents, which every other thing on Instagram is now about how you didn't know that you're the child of narcissistic parents, right? And all the things that-

• 55:56Speaker 00

  Well, we love to label people.

• 55:57Mayim Bialik?

  Right, exactly. So I wonder if you can talk about-

• 55:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:59Mayim Bialik?

  -where those labels fit and how they don't need to fit, right? If you're gonna utilize this.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  Well, so the let them theory is ultimately a mindset tool. And what it does is it helps you in a nanosecond to identify what's in your control and what's not in your control. And so if we back up just a little bit-

• 56:27Speaker 00

  This is ultimately a book about learning how to work with the fundamental laws of human behavior and human wiring. And what I have come to learn is that I had been working against it my entire life. And when you start implementing this tool, and that's an important thing, this is not a concept, it's a tool. And the reason why it works is because it is a tool that exists in a legacy of deep wisdom, ancient research, philosophical principles, and therapeutic modalities.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  And it applies all of that in an instant, in any situation that you're in, where you are focusing on something or someone that you can't control. And it then prompts you and reminds you what is in your control. And so, the way that you use it is-

• 57:26Mayim Bialik?

  It's also the foundation of what Bill W. discovered-

• 57:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:30Mayim Bialik?

  -with Dr. Bob-

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:31Mayim Bialik?

  -in a hospital.

• 57:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:33Mayim Bialik?

  Which is, you can only control what you can-

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:36Mayim Bialik?

  -and you pray for the wisdom to be able to know the difference using this kind of tool.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 57:40Mayim Bialik?

  Right? Turn it over.

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Yes. And so, for me, whether it's because of dyslexia, or because I've always been a red flag for most of my life, in terms of my own coping mechanisms, and behavior, and controlling nature, or whatever it may be, that this is so incredible, because for me, concepts don't work. Like, people have told me forever to just let it go, just drop it, just let it go. I hate letting it go, because it means I'm losing. Like, I don't like to let it go, because there's something in that that's implied that they won, and I have to let it go and move on. And I don't want to do that. And there's something different about saying, "Let them."

• 58:25Speaker 00

  Because what you're doing when you say, "Let them," and you're gonna start saying it anytime somebody pisses you off, or stresses you out, or you see-

• 58:32Mayim Bialik?

  Or hurts you.

• 58:33Speaker 00

  -or hurts you, or you see something in the news that really upsets you, or you feel overwhelmed, or stuck, or your, like, boss is in a bad mood, you're gonna say, "Let them." And when you say, "Let them," you're not allowing somebody to hurt you. You're actually taking a step back, and you're recognizing what is happening. And you're acknowledging, the power is not in trying to change what this person is doing. The power is saying, "Let them," and detaching from what that person is doing. And then you do the second step, which is, "Let me." "Let me remind myself that in any situation, I always, always have power." Because there are three things I can control. I can control what I'm gonna think next.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  I can control what I do or I don't do. And oftentimes, what I find is not reacting is what gives me more power. And I can control how I process my emotion. And that's always in your power. And I choose to believe that any human being that starts to get very intentional and take responsibility, and let's look at the word responsibility. It's the ability to respond. So when you take responsibility for your life, you're owning your ability to respond to the things that are happening in life. And you can always respond with how you're gonna think about it, and that's the framing, what you're gonna do. And, you know, it reminds you. You can leave any conversation.

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  You can leave any date. You can leave any job. You can leave any relationship. You can leave any dinner table with your family.

• 1:00:09Jonathan Cohen?

  People have to be reminded of that, though.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Yes, but that's the "let me" part. See, right now, we are giving too much power to outside forces and to other people. And when you start saying, "Let them," a couple things happen. Number one, you feel instant peace. You feel so much more calm, because it's the ultimate boundary. Like, if you're standing in line at the grocery store, and you're five people deep, and they've only got one cashier, and now you're, like, starting to feel the stress, and now you start to think that you could manage a grocery store better than anyone else, and you're frustrated. Just say, "Let them." And what's interesting is that it doesn't make the line move faster. It stops something stupid from draining your energy. And as you both know,

• 1:00:55Speaker 00

  your time and energy and how you spend it is what determines your experience of life. And for anybody that feels stuck or exhausted or tired or you're last on your list, I got news for you. You're not the problem. The problem is that you're allowing other people to drain you, and you're giving power to other people's opinions and to their emotions, and you're making it your job to manage everybody. The moment you let adults be adults... You're gonna be struck by how much time you actually have.

• 1:01:23Mayim Bialik?

  Well, one of the fears is, I'll be alone.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  Well, that happens.

• 1:01:27Mayim Bialik?

  Well, so talk about that because the notion is also like, you know, and I, the section on relationships is fantastic. It's like, what if you don't care what other people think? What if you are not taking care of their feelings in place of yours? Which when you say it out loud, like, why would you do that? It's crazy, right?

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:46Mayim Bialik?

  But the notion of, what if I keep letting them? And what it leads to is I realize that like, it's a bad relationship and all these friendships are shitty. I don't even like my life. What do you do when let them leads to that?

• 1:02:01Speaker 00

  Well, thank you for saying that because, you know, we did a ton of research. And what we found, and by we, I mean my daughter, who worked for this huge cybersecurity firm. I brought her on to do some research and she's like a massive analytical, systems-thinking brain. And she's the one that discovered the loneliness piece. And she said, Mom, you can't write a book about this because people are using let them. And everybody loves saying let them. Why? You feel better than people. Let's just call it for what it is.

• 1:02:31Mayim Bialik?

  No, you have a little, you have a little chart. It's like you feel, instead of inferior, you feel superior.

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, like if your friends don't invite you, it's mentally healthy to feel a little disappointed. That's a sign that you're well, actually. Right? But then you punish yourself. But when you say let them, let them go away for the weekend without me. You rise above them and you feel superior. This is why everybody gets it tattooed on them. Let them, let them, let them. You feel more, you feel superior to the grocery store. You feel superior to the bad driver. You feel superior to the idiot that's spewing stupid political things. Like, let them. Like, it's a waste of my time and energy to worry about this, which means I feel above you. But the more you say it and you distance yourself and you let people reveal who they are, you will notice that there are relationships that are not reciprocal.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  You will notice that in your family, you're the sibling that reaches out all the time. But here's what I'm gonna remind you. If you're feeling lonely, it tells me that you're not actually doing step two. Because step two is let me. Let me decide what I want to do about this. Because in the case of, let's say, you're the one that reaches out in your family. You're the one that holds everybody together. If you value family.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Then the let me part might be, this is my role. And I own it. And I'm not

• 1:03:52Mayim Bialik?

  And that means you don't get to be resentful about it. You don't get to punish everybody. You don't get to remind them how hard you're working to make everything come together.

• 1:03:59Speaker 00

  Yes, and what I've also found in adult friendship is that I'm friends with a lot of people that are very introverted. I'm friends with people that aren't that social. And they're not going to be the one that plan it. And I don't want to be in tit for tat relationships.

• 1:04:15Mayim Bialik?

  Right, like I invited her, but when is she gonna reciprocate?

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  Yes, we're not, we're not in middle school.

• 1:04:21Mayim Bialik?

  We're not eight.

• 1:04:21Speaker 00

  Correct, and everybody has a lot going on. And not everybody owes you a response just because you texted them. And so, literally, providing people with a little bit of grace, like, well, let them. Let them not show up, because maybe they can't. You know, I don't know if you've had Dr. Stuart Ablon on the show, but you need him. He is a psychologist who's at Mass General Brigham, one of my most favorite guests of all time. He was in our Boston studios last week. He said something that changed my life. He said, Mel, people do well when they can. And if they're not doing well, or they're challenging, or they can't change, it's because there are like five fundamental skills that are missing.

• 1:04:58Mayim Bialik?

  But you actually, you do touch on this.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:00Mayim Bialik?

  People change exactly when they want to.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:03Mayim Bialik?

  And what I was taught, and like, my whole life, it was some version in my family or my social life of, why aren't they, and then fill in the blank. Why are they doing what I want? Why aren't they acting the way I want? Why won't they do this like I do? Whatever. And it, it was a sponsor of mine who literally said, people give you exactly what they can and no more. So you can keep trying to squeeze it out of them. And chances are, they're gonna

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  But here's the thing.

• 1:05:30Mayim Bialik?

  They're gonna show up in a shitty mood and you don't want to be with them that way anyway.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  Actually, worse. It's worse.

• 1:05:37Mayim Bialik?

  Can we call that this episode's title?

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  Actually, worse. No, seriously, it's worse. So I'm sure you've had Dr. K, Healthy Gamer, on.

• 1:05:45Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  So, his research is fascinating. And if you combine it with Dr. Sherrod from King's College.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  And you're a neuroscientist, so you know this. When you wish someone would change, it translates to pressure. And what does pressure create? It doesn't create motivation, it creates resistance to change. So your pressure, your desire, your opinion, your judgment, even your well-intentioned gifts to people. Here's a tutor, here's running shoes, here's this, here's that. It actually creates the standoff that you're trying to end. People only change when they feel ready to change. And, you know, one of my favorite examples to explain this, which is why you need to let them. You need to let people change when they're ready. You need to let people learn from life. You need to let people be who they are.

• 1:06:36Mayim Bialik?

  You need to let people make their own mistakes.

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  Well, of course, because the greatest teacher in life is life. And the greatest teacher, in terms of motivating someone's intrinsic motivation to change, is actual pain. Because what is the saying in Addiction and Sobriety? People get sober when being drunk is harder than facing the things that you're running from. And it's true about anything. And I want to remind you as you're listening, because you're probably thinking about somebody in your life that is struggling, that you wish would take better care of themselves. Now, by the way, wishing somebody would take better care of themselves is a beautiful thing. Wishing your adult child would be more motivated or see the potential that you see is a beautiful thing.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  But the problem isn't wanting more for somebody. The problem is how we're going about it. And so, one of the examples that made a huge impression on me, so this is why you've got to let people be. And you've got to learn to love them as they are. And you have to learn to love them as they're not.

• 1:07:36Mayim Bialik?

  Or stop trying to love them if that's not the person you're supposed to love.

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  Correct, unless it's family. I mean, family teaches you how to love somebody you hate at times, you know? Well, you know, yeah, there are times when it's appropriate to not have a relationship with family. I worry that estrangement's on the rise. I worry that, you know, emotional immaturity...

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  Also means when you cut somebody off without explanation.

• 1:08:01Mayim Bialik?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  Emotional immaturity is not actually sitting with somebody and explaining why.

• 1:08:06Mayim Bialik?

  The number of Instagram reels that go around of like, here's the solution. Cut everybody off.

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:08:12Mayim Bialik?

  And then you get this like self-righteous indignation of like, I ended a toxic relationship. Which in some cases, I'm not gonna, like, that may be your, like, it's fine, abuse, I don't know. But this general notion that this is a solution.

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  It's immaturity.

• 1:08:25Mayim Bialik?

  Right to our own ills.

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  To not.

• 1:08:26Mayim Bialik?

  Is actually not a complete one, I would say.

• 1:08:29Speaker 00

  Well, um, let me remind everybody. Because one of the theories in the book is that we're all eight-year-olds inside of big bodies when it comes to emotional immaturity. And that a child pouts when they get overwhelmed. And why do you pout? Because you want to draw somebody over to you. Adults do the silent treatment. And a silent treatment is punishing somebody. You are punishing somebody because you don't want... Because they're not doing what you want them to do. And so you remove your love and access. You want it, and, and when you cut someone off without explanation, you are not a mature person.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  You are actually engaging in extraordinarily emotionally abusive behavior because you are punishing somebody else without explanation. And I worry about the rise in this. And one of the things that I'm hopeful about with the let them theory, at least it's how it's helped me with people that have narcissistic personality styles, is, again, people do well when they can. And if you have somebody in your life that has very challenging personality behavior, first of all, you get to choose how much time you spend with them. You get to choose how much energy you pour into it. And when you say let them, you are following all of the guidance from the world's leading psychologists

• 1:09:57Speaker 00

  about challenging people, which is you're actually recognizing this person is who they are.

• 1:10:03Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  And nothing you do is going to change who they are.

• 1:10:06Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  And when you say let them, you're now entering a relationship with your eyes wide open without the expectation of change. Which means you now are in control. Because you get to choose how much time you're going to pour into it. You get to choose whether or not their drama impacts you. And here's the other cool thing. I used to be terrified of the people in my life who are narcissistic. I now feel a lot of, I feel sorry for them. Because I see an eight-year-old inside that body as they're throwing a tantrum. And I also know that somebody that has a narcissistic personality style was not born that way. They were made that way, typically through neglect by parents emotionally. And so it creates a space for two things to be true.

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  And that's what I love about this. It creates this flexibility in you to be able to let people be who they are. And I'll take an example that a lot of my audience writes in about about guilt. Like, I don't know how to deal with guilt. My parents are disappointed. My parents don't like my partner. My parents have expectations. Okay, great, let them. Let them have their opinions. Let them have negative thoughts. Let them have their beliefs. Because we know, based on the science, that telling them what to think actually turns off the part of the brain that somebody needs to listen. And when you just let somebody have their beliefs, they tend to not stick them in your face.

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  And with disappointment, let's use the example of you're not gonna go home next month. And now your parents are really disappointed. Isn't that a good thing?

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  Like, really stop and think about that. Isn't that a good thing? If you have a business partner and you can't make it across country to give some speech or, isn't it a good thing if they're disappointed?

• 1:11:55Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  Let them be disappointed because it means they want you there. But that doesn't mean you have to be there. And I love this change because if somebody was disappointed in me, I was so uncomfortable with that, I thought I had to bend over backwards to make the disappointment go away. What if you could see disappointment as somebody just loving you and wishing you were there? And so you let them do that, but then you've got to say the second part, let me. Let me double down on my values and let me say, okay, they're disappointed, but what do I value? And what do I want to think, do, or say in response to this? And so instead of changing your plans to make them happy or to make them think you're

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  a good son or daughter. Let them be disappointed and then say to yourself, "Let me decide how I'm going to respond to this." If you want to change your plans, do it because it makes you feel good. Because when you do things out of guilt, you turn other people into the villain. And it creates resentment. And you actually are no longer taking responsibility for your actions. When you do it because it makes you feel like a good person or because it matters to you, you're now owning the power. And that changes everything.

• 1:13:12Mayim Bialik?

  I wonder if you can talk a bit about the kind of over-identification, both with our own negative thoughts and also the over-identification that we have with other people's thoughts. So this notion of, you know, you had something in the book about, you have a section in the book about fearing our own negative thoughts. That sometimes we can think horrible things about people that we deeply love.

• 1:13:35Speaker 00

  We do think horrible things.

• 1:13:36Mayim Bialik?

  But, yeah. And I was like, even my children. Sometimes I think like, "Oh, what am I doing?"

• 1:13:40Speaker 00

  Everyday.

• 1:13:40Mayim Bialik?

  Right, exactly. And this notion that we don't have to over-identify with that. We don't have to over-identify with other people's expectations of us or even their feelings about it, right?

• 1:13:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:52Mayim Bialik?

  I don't, I'm, you may be hurt. It was not my intention to hurt you, but I can't necessarily fix that for you. You talk about riding an emotional wave. And I think this is something that a lot of us don't understand.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  I didn't.

• 1:14:07Mayim Bialik?

  Can you explain what the riding the emotional wave is?

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I didn't understand what emotions were, which is why I was afraid of them. And learning that an emotion is just an automatic six-second chemical explosion in your body. And also learning that if you don't suppress it, react to it, numb it, or overthink about it, most emotions, if you just let it rise up and fall, it dissipates in 90 seconds.

• 1:14:38Mayim Bialik?

  People don't know that.

• 1:14:39Speaker 00

  I didn't know that.

• 1:14:40Mayim Bialik?

  Send that text, shout, scream, make that call, break up with someone in the moment, right? This is like a novel thing that we need to know.

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  Yes. Like, if you really embrace this truth.

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  That emotional maturity, which means understanding your emotion and being able to... The word is regulate. I don't like that word. It's sort of like being able to be in control of your response versus letting your emotions control you. That will change your life. So it is...

• 1:15:16Mayim Bialik?

  Being the subject, not the object of your emotions or your life experience.

• 1:15:20Speaker 00

  Yes, most of us act based on how we feel. What if you could feel how you feel and act in a way that makes you proud? I was the kind of person that was an adult tantrum thrower. When I got overwhelmed at life or work or something's going on with a kid, it was like a tidal wave of frustration. And...

• 1:15:46Mayim Bialik?

  What would you do?

• 1:15:47Speaker 00

  Oh, I'd rage text. I would scream. I'd send those... You know the emails that people send that are like a page long? You spend an hour writing and then you hit send and it doesn't do anything?

• 1:15:57Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:15:57Speaker 00

  I would come home after a stressful day at work and vomit all over my family. It's not okay. And even in the last year, when things get really overwhelming at work, I would send texts to my business partner that are not okay. Because if you can't tolerate emotional waves, people have two strategies. They either barf it out at other people, which is a tantrum, or they shove it down and that builds over time into rage.

• 1:16:32Mayim Bialik?

  They put food on top of it and drugs and sex.

• 1:16:34Speaker 00

  Everything, right?

• 1:16:36Jonathan Cohen?

  And it comes out eventually.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  It comes out eventually. And so, understanding that we're all just eight years old.

• 1:16:44Mayim Bialik?

  I'm sorry, what's my option? If I'm not having a tantrum, I'm not allowed to push it out? What am I supposed to do?

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  You can push it out. You can push it down. What you're gonna do is you're gonna let your emotions rise. And then you're gonna say, "Let me decide how I'm gonna respond. I'm gonna just let these emotions just rise and fall." And for me, using this let them and let me to just hit the pause and not respond and not go down a death spiral in my mind and let the emotions come up.

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  Take a breath. Let it fall.

• 1:17:22Mayim Bialik?

  Sleep.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  Sleep, go outside, put the phone down. This, I've been working on this for a year. And it's changing the game. And one of the things that I think you can, and here's the thing to understand. This is a skill that you have to be taught. When you're a child, you don't know how to process your emotions. Which is why it is the responsibility of an adult to help a child process emotions in a healthy way.

• 1:17:58Mayim Bialik?

  But if they're not modeling it and they don't know how to even talk about it.

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:18:03Mayim Bialik?

  You don't have that skill.

• 1:18:04Speaker 00

  Yes. Nobody's parents knew how to do this. They weren't taught it, so they didn't teach it to you. And I didn't learn this until I was 54 years old. And I've done every therapeutic modality in the book, from EMDR to the MAPS protocol with psychedelics to talk therapy. And the interesting thing about therapy is it's very helpful for understanding things. But when you're talking about your issues, you're using your prefrontal cortex and your present. When you're in an emotionally reactive mode, a different part of your brain is online. Which is why you can't access the tools very often that you unpacked in therapy. And you find yourself barfing all over the people you care about.

• 1:18:47Mayim Bialik?

  That's why therapy isn't enough for a lot of people.

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  Yes. Well, I actually prefer a neck down approach. See, I personally think we're obsessed with neck up and talking and thinking about the problems. And the true healing and change happens in the body from the neck down. And I love the let them theory because it stops you from going neck up. When you say let them, you stop the cascade of bitching and judgment. When you say let me, you drop back into your body and remind yourself that you do have agency and power here. And it's something that's so simple that you can access it even in a meltdown. And so, to me, this is the single biggest benefit of this.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  Because if you're somebody that can start to learn how to stay steady.

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  Inside your body and in yourself, no matter what idiot, or narcissist, or political person is out there, or bigot, because we can't control them. So don't waste a single frickin' second of your life trying to. The power is in here. And when you shift your energy, like, I think a lot about families and friend groups and work environments. And, you know, I think about relationships like a spider web, right? And if you're out in the woods in the morning and you see the dew on the spider web, why is it that the challenging person is the one that tap, tap, taps the web and shakes all the dew off? I have a different opinion. I believe the opposite is true.

• 1:20:25Speaker 00

  See, I think that you bring the weather. And if you're a steady, powerful, graceful, peaceful, confident person, because you're in control of your emotions, and you know what's in your control and what's not, you know what drama you're not involved in, you know, like, what is worth your time and not, I believe you have more power than the most challenging person in the room. Because control breeds more control. Peace breeds more peace. People are attracted to light. We're afraid of things that are dark. And so when you start to get a handle on this, it's unbelievable how it shifts dynamics.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  And, you know, I say you can't change another person, but I didn't say you couldn't influence them. And so, an example that I love that made a lot of sense to me, because, look, I've wanted my kids to be more motivated, I want my husband to stop asking stupid questions, I want, you know, like, they want me to change. But when I understood the power of influence, and this is where the let them theory comes in, and you just let people be. So, like, I want you to think of somebody in your life that you really wish would change. Whether you want a kid- He's sitting right there. Okay, what do you want, what do you want to have him change about him? But I think you know this already, so. Yeah.

• 1:21:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Where do you even start? The list is very long.

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  You know, I, I wish that, um-

• 1:21:52Jonathan Cohen?

  I had a Trello board?

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  No, I, I, I wish that Jonathan would consider other people more when he's making plans. Hmm. Okay. You just make plans?

• 1:22:08Jonathan Cohen?

  I don't know if I just make plans, but I, uh, I spent a lot of years catering to absolutely everyone else and feeling like if I just do this or just do that, and I had tried to put my finger in all the holes in the dam.

• 1:22:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:22:24Jonathan Cohen?

  And before I would think about myself. I mean, like, I don't know what I want, because what I want will be best if I just make sure everyone else is tended to.

• 1:22:32Speaker 00

  Believe it or not, it was a revelation to me that this is most men.

• 1:22:37Jonathan Cohen?

  I was just like, I don't want them to react. I don't want her to cry. I don't want that tantrum to happen. I don't want my parents to be upset with me. And if I just, and so constantly scanning, constantly. And so it's been the last couple, few years, more than that, that I'm like, I gotta get clear on what I want and see how I can fit everything else around it. So it's like, oh, my son has a tennis tournament. I'm gonna go with him. These are the times. This is where I'm going.

• 1:23:04Speaker 00

  But he's a little bit Ayn Rand now. It's a little bit of objectivism. Got it. Well, this is a slightly, well, I'll give you what has worked in my marriage. So being ADHD, I'm a mess and I run late. And if you look at my husband's bathroom counter, it's like a zen hotel. If you look at mine, it's like a CVS aisle tipped over. And he wishes I were cleaner. He wishes I wouldn't like walk to the wastepaper basket as I'm blowing my nose and then get a text and then put the Kleenex on the counter. And it wasn't until he sat down and explained the impact of that on me.

• 1:23:43Speaker 00

  See, there's a difference between what you intend and the impact it has on somebody else. And so you do have to let them be who they are. So you are a person who is learning to put yourself first. You're a person that is prioritizing your needs. We're gonna let you. But then it's on you to sit down and say, when this happens, this is the impact on me. And when Chris said to me, every time I see a Kleenex or I see your crap migrate to my sink, it makes me feel like you think I'm the maid. And it's like a giant middle finger from you. That's not what I intended. So when I know the impact to somebody that I care about is not

• 1:24:26Speaker 00

  what I intended, I am now motivated to do something. Now here's where it gets interesting. Chris still has to let Mel be Mel. And if I don't respond and I don't course correct, after somebody tells me something that important, I am revealing to Chris that I don't care about him. And then Chris has to, then I have to, like, then Chris, now it's on Chris. Is this something I can live with? Because people reveal who they are and what they care about through their behavior. And you always get to choose whether or not this is just something you're bitching about. So it's the 69% of the things that the Gottman research says are never going to be resolved.

• 1:25:11Speaker 00

  But it's not a deal breaker. Or is this in the category of behavior where I'm either giving up on some dream for my life or it's a misalignment of values, which is a different story?

• 1:25:22Jonathan Cohen?

  And sometimes it needs more than one conversation.

• 1:25:24Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:25:25Jonathan Cohen?

  Because people are in their psych.

• 1:25:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:25:27Jonathan Cohen?

  People are in their flow and you don't think that the tissue is going to upset Chris that much. And you have to sort of get it into your.

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  And here's the thing, I'm gonna tell you something. The only way you know if it's no longer an issue is if you can end your bitching about it. At some point, Chris has had to say, all the other stuff that Mel brings to my life outweighs the Kleenexes on the counter.

• 1:25:47Mayim Bialik?

  What you focus on grows.

• 1:25:48Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:25:50Mayim Bialik?

  Acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. It's what you focus on grows.

• 1:25:53Speaker 00

  The other thing that I wanted to point out is that the reason why it's so important to learn how to let people be who they are and love them where they are and where they're not, is because if you look at the research on the power of your influence, I want to give an example because this one made a big difference for me. If you're sitting at work and you're tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, and you're working through lunch and you're shoving a sandwich in your mouth and you see a colleague get up and they go for a walk every day. And then they come back and they're refreshed and happy. And you keep working and weeks go by. And then all of a sudden, one day, you're gonna look up and look out the window and go, I think I'm gonna go for a walk. But here's the interesting thing. You think it's your idea. You don't credit your colleague.

• 1:26:35Speaker 00

  But it was actually your colleague's influence that gave you that idea. And so particularly with people that you care about, when it comes to them changing, first of all, understand that people change when they're ready to change, when they feel like changing. People do well when they can. And if they're not doing well, it's because there's some skill or there's something going on in their life that makes them not able to do well right now.

• 1:27:03Speaker 00

  But you also have to create enough space so that it's their idea. You know, your adult kid that's struggling in school knows they're struggling. Of course, they want to do better. Of course, they feel pressure, not only from the people at school and pressure of knowing that they're not doing well, but now they feel your judgment too, even though you're well-intentioned, which just makes somebody feel more paralyzed. And most of us like stomp up the stairs and why aren't you motivated? And it's not about will, it's usually about some skill. And we don't have the conversation from the standpoint of let them be who they are and then let me have a different conversation. Let me apologize for the pressure.

• 1:27:48Speaker 00

  And let me actually lean in and ask, how do you feel about this? And what do you want to do about this? Because when somebody is asked what they want to do about something, what's happening is you're allowing that friction that somebody feels to be internal instead of it being friction from you. And that then creates the space for somebody to move toward change because it has to be their idea. Because we've all been in the situation where somebody wants us to change. It's annoying as fuck. You're literally like, I got this. I'll go for a walk when I want to. Don't fucking tell me what to do. And so you enter the standoff. And then when you start to feel like maybe you want to go root and free, maybe you want

• 1:28:31Speaker 00

  to stop drinking, you don't do it because you also don't want people to tell you to do it. And so there has to be enough space where you feel accepted for you to start to galvanize the desire to do it for you.

• 1:28:45Mayim Bialik?

  I wonder if you can clarify two things. On the one hand, let them is not let them abuse me.

• 1:28:52Speaker 00

  Oh, hell no. It's the opposite.

• 1:28:53Mayim Bialik?

  So can you, yeah, can you clarify that? Because I think a lot of people would be like, I'm in a relationship and he keeps cheating on me and I don't know what to do. Right. Just let him cheat on me. That's not what this, right. So can you?

• 1:29:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:29:05Mayim Bialik?

  Give us the other side of that.

• 1:29:06Speaker 00

  I think the, one of the biggest things that keeps people in toxic dynamics in relationships, whether it's dating or it's a situation where somebody's disrespecting you through cheating or gaslighting or whatever it may be, is excusing away behavior. And so.

• 1:29:24Speaker 00

  It's challenging because I do want to take responsibility for the fact that one of the reasons why people get stuck in cycles of abuse is because it's the same programming of intermittent rewards that is present in addiction, online and with gambling. Like that cycle of "you're a monster and now you're apologizing and now things are quiet and now all of a sudden you're a monster again." That sort of intermittent nature of "but they're nice but now they're terrifying, but they're kind and now they're abusing me."

• 1:29:55Mayim Bialik?

  It's also what happens when you grow up in an abusive home. You'll get enough love to like keep you fawning and keep you there, but then also you can't get out.

• 1:30:02Speaker 00

  And I think it's important to say that because it's not your fault and there's no character deficiency. This is actually fucking with your brain circuitry. And so the "let them" theory and saying "let them" is a very important tool because I want you to break free of that circuitry and do the thing that's really hard, which is to recognize that this person, they are who they are. This isn't changing. No amount of apologies are going to change what's happening. Their behavior has told you exactly who they are, period. They're not going to change for you. They're not going to change for the children. It's not happening. And it is important for you to wake up and recognize that no amount of

• 1:30:46Speaker 00

  hoping is going to change this situation. No apology is going to erase what happened. And the only apology that counts is a change in behavior, which this person has not done. And so looking at the other person as the source of the power in the change is moronic and it's actually self-abuse. Looking at yourself and saying, "Let me see this clearly. Let me accept the behavior as who this person is. And now let me, with very clear eyes, say to myself, 'Is this what I deserve?'" Some people say yes because of traumatic

• 1:31:27Speaker 00

  history. And so "deserve" is probably the wrong word. "Is this what I want?" And maybe not even, is this a turn off? Hell, yes, it is. And so when you come back and say, this is who this person is. Is this what I want for my life? And if you're really stuck with kids, I would, I would remind you that your kids are watching. And if you wouldn't want this for your children, do not stay in it. Because you are modeling something. And this is why, this is not about allowing anything. It's about recognizing what's happening. And prompting yourself to understand that no matter how scary it is, no matter how lost you feel, no matter how alone you are, how much abuse you've taken,

• 1:32:11Speaker 00

  that you have a responsibility to yourself, the ability to respond, and you have the ability to choose something better. And a lot of times, that means leaving. And accepting who this person is and also acknowledging-

• 1:32:26Mayim Bialik?

  And letting them be who they are, but not in your home.

• 1:32:28Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:32:29Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:32:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's, that's not an easy thing to do.

• 1:32:32Mayim Bialik?

  The other thing I wanted you to sort of help clarify in terms of kids.

• 1:32:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:32:39Mayim Bialik?

  And I think there's kind of an age at which it's a little bit, you know, hard. Like you wouldn't, you wouldn't behave with your 20 year old the way you would with a three year old.

• 1:32:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is not a book for kids. This is a book for adults.

• 1:32:49Mayim Bialik?

  But I really resonated, you gave an example about your son's prom.

• 1:32:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:32:54Mayim Bialik?

  And it's funny because I had the same conversation about a corsage with my kid. And he was like, no, I don't want it. And I was like, how could you not want it? Like, it's 1943, what do you mean? You buy the girl a corsage, like whatever, I was crazy about it. And I ended up like, I backed off and it was a thing. But it reminded me of like the let them when you're a parent. Or even if it's someone that you love, let's say that is not your child, but not your partner, right? You get to let other people have the dignity to make mistakes, to have their own path, to see what's working.

• 1:33:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:29Mayim Bialik?

  And to let them decide how they want to. And that's so hard when it's your kid.

• 1:33:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:33:36Mayim Bialik?

  Because, like, I want you to, can you explain a little bit? Like flesh it out, why is that so hard? Because like, obviously I think it reflects, it reflects on me also, right? Meaning like, he needs to do this so that I know that I did okay, right?

• 1:33:49Speaker 00

  It comes back to control.

• 1:33:50Mayim Bialik?

  Yep.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  So you feel safe, we all do. If we're in control of ourselves, our decisions, the environment. And that extends to people and especially children. And as a parent, you are responsible for their safety. You are responsible for giving them structure and food and shelter. You are responsible for helping them understand and regulate their emotions.

• 1:34:16Mayim Bialik?

  In many ways, you control them.

• 1:34:18Speaker 00

  Yes, and I believe you're responsible for helping them figure out who they are and helping them understand the importance of decision making. And the only way you understand the importance of decision making is to feel the consequences of your decisions. And one of the things that has been a huge eye opener for me is every time I step in and try to solve one of my kids' problems or I allow them to not face something, whether it's... I remember my daughter got really drunk and she... This is one of the best parenting moves I think I've ever made. She got really wasted in high school. And I'm talking puking the whole ride home, the whole nine yards,

• 1:35:02Speaker 00

  just an absolute dead weight on the window bench. And so what did I do? I didn't ground her. I made her go to lacrosse routes.

• 1:35:12Jonathan Cohen?

  Amazing.

• 1:35:12Speaker 00

  Because the greatest teacher is life. And the fastest way people learn is to feel the full weight of their decisions and the consequences that come with them. And it's a very hard thing to do, but what I have learned is this. When you step in and solve your kids' problems or you insulate them from hardship in life, you are actually saying to them, I don't believe in your ability to do this. And that's a huge mistake. I have learned through the let them theory to take what I call an arm around the shoulder approach. I don't block and tackle. I will walk by your side and put my arm around you, but you have to face the things.

• 1:35:54Speaker 00

  And one of the things that has helped me a lot is because I'm a problem solver, because I feel anxious when something feels uncertain. And it makes me feel safer when, you know, things are all handled. And so I have spent too much of my life as a parent and as a spouse solving everything, just jumping in, not even allowing people the grace and the space to make decisions for themselves. And learning how to just go let them.

• 1:36:27Speaker 00

  Let them not be motivated.

• 1:36:30Speaker 00

  Let them like figure out what it's like to sit home all summer because they didn't motivate and get a job and then they don't have money. And then the hardest part for a parent is let them actually struggle financially and don't pay for it. And when somebody feels pain and hardship, it it galvanizes intrinsic motivation to do better. And I personally believe, I choose to believe in the endless amazing potential that people have. I choose to believe that my kids are stronger than they think that they are. And I choose to believe that if I stand by their side instead of clearing the way, that they will discover their strength faster.

• 1:37:16Speaker 00

  And learning to say, let them. And then I always have to say, let me shut up.

• 1:37:23Speaker 00

  Let me not step in. You know, my daughter, when we were writing this book, went through the biggest heartbreak of her life. And we were working on the last section of the book that is all about using let them for love. And we had already started the heartbreak section. She was like, this is horse shit. I hate this advice. And it was absolutely unbelievable to go to this, go through this experience because here you have somebody in a deeply depressive state. It was a two-year-long relationship where we're in love with him. His parents are in love with her. The breakup happens. You know, we're removing the photos from the digital camera, like everybody's, it's grief. Because you're having to unlearn

• 1:38:07Speaker 00

  your life with this person. And watching your child go through a depressive state, you would literally step in front of a train to take away that pain. Don't do it.

• 1:38:21Speaker 00

  Don't do it. Let them grieve. Let them stay in bed for days. And have the arm around you approach. Because when you do that, you're actually giving them the space to process and to feel and to move through something while saying, "I'm here with you." And there are so many times where I would catch myself wanting to solve it. And instead, I would start to say, "Do you need me to listen? Or do you want some advice?" And 99% of the time, she would just say, "Just shut up. I just need you to sit here with me." And when you do that, what's so cool is that we don't allow people

• 1:39:06Speaker 00

  to truly discover their potential because we think we know better or because we think we can help them. And if you really flip this and start to realize the people around you have so much greater capacity. And maybe what's missing is a little space for them to discover it for themselves.

• 1:39:30Mayim Bialik?

  Mel, we can't thank you enough for being here. I mean, we've gotten so much just from following you. And I just feel like your arm is around us. I feel like that's really what it feels like. The book is The Let Them Theory. And it really is. It's unbelievable.

• 1:39:46Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:39:48Mayim Bialik?

  The tools are incredibly simple and really profound. And I really, I got a lot out of it. And I can't wait to tell him all the things that I think are appropriate that he should know about it.

• 1:39:57Speaker 00

  Thank you for that. That means a lot to me.

• 1:39:59Mayim Bialik?

  It was really, I really loved it. So, thank you. And thank you for being here. And tell the people where they can find you for more of you.

• 1:40:06Speaker 00

  Anywhere. Literally, anywhere.

• 1:40:09Mayim Bialik?

  Great.

• 1:40:09Speaker 00

  I really hope the next time you're on the East Coast that you'll let me know so we can have you on the podcast.

• 1:40:16Mayim Bialik?

  We would love to.

• 1:40:17Jonathan Cohen?

  Mel.

• 1:40:19Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm just really struck. For me personally, you're the person throwing the party. I just watch, I watch what you're doing and just how you share such optimism and how you connect with your audience and how present you are. And you know, I don't know you before today, but I've watched so much of your stuff and I'm just really moved by both the way you synthesize information and just how much hope you bring to people. And I'm just, it's just beautiful.

• 1:40:44Speaker 00

  Thank you.