#2258 - Steven Rinella

Steven Rinella is an outdoorsman, conservationist, writer, and host of "MeatEater." Look for his new audio original "MeatEater's American History: The Mountain Men (1806-1840)" on February 11, 2025. His new show "Hunting History With Steven Rinella" on HISTORY begins on January 28. www.themeateater.com This episode is brought to you by Visible. New members can get the Visible plan for just $20/mo for 25 months. Switch by 1/31/2025 at http://Visible.com/ROGAN with promo code ROGAN. Terms apply. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT) or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD).21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). 1 per new customer. Min. $5 deposit. Min. $5 bet. Max. $200 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets that expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: dkng.co/dk-offer-terms. Ends 2/9/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  Steve Rinella.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  That was a long exhale.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  I needed one.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  Is this Trump's chair?

• 0:18Joe Rogan?

  Uh, he sat in that chair, yeah.

• 0:21Speaker 02

  I want to soak up some of the tenacity, man.

• 0:24Joe Rogan?

  He's got a lot of that.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  It took me a long time, man. Um, it took me a long time to, to see it. Like, I remember people would talk, you know, there was this thing when he, when he emerged on the scene, it was a thing about like toughness. And I'd always defined, like in my mind, toughness was being able to go through some like alder choked hell hole real fast.

• 0:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Or hike up a hill.

• 0:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  So I was like, that's not tough. And then later I was like, oh.

• 0:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  Like that.

• 0:51Joe Rogan?

  Mental toughness.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  That kind of tough, man.

• 0:53Joe Rogan?

  Think about what that guy went through. I mean, he had the entire media, the entire justice system. He had the, the deep state, the central intelligence agency, had all these people like conspiring to take him out. Literally an assassination attempt, then another one, in and out of the news in no time. Nobody cared. No grace period.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:15Joe Rogan?

  They, they waited about a day and then they started talking shit about him again.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  That's the thing is out of, uh, when I looked at like now that I've come to understand it better, I'm like, like the fact that, uh, most people would crawl into a hole.

• 1:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  You know, after, well, I, I got a buddy, I don't want to say who it is, but he, uh, he had sold his business and he told me, he goes, well, I'm gonna sell my business, I'm gonna crawl into a deep, dark hole. And, um, later he's kind of back out and bought another business. And I said, what about crawling into the deep, dark hole? And he said, well, I did, but my wife was in there.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  I had to get back, I'm not ready yet. I gotta get back out.

• 1:57Joe Rogan?

  People, I think that's like these sort of fictional depictions of the future. That, you know, everybody wants this future where, you know, you're just holding hands and walking off into the sunset, the golden years. It's all bullshit. If you're alive, you're gonna wanna do the same things you're doing right now.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16Joe Rogan?

  You're not gonna have some point in your life where you're gonna wanna do nothing and be happy that you don't have to do anything. You're gonna get depressed.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think about it. But my wife's, my wife's smart enough to worry about what had happened to us if we didn't have like, you know, dragons to slay.

• 2:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  You know, she feels that it might be essential.

• 2:33Joe Rogan?

  It's essential for life. You need puzzle, you need at least some sort of a very involving hobby. You need something, I mean, you can retire from, if you have a lot of money, you could retire from your financial pursuits. But you need something that you enjoy doing. Hu- human beings need tasks. If you don't have something, you, you get very dull and that's how people get Alzheimer's. They just fucking get dementia. They just like sit around the house and their brain atrophies and, and then they just die.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I look at people like that and, and, um,

• 3:08Speaker 02

  you know, part of looking at, uh, well Biden and Trump would be, uh,

• 3:15Speaker 02

  at that age, like I plan on at that age to be like really kicking it. Just screwing around outside.

• 3:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just having fun.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Just think that like to perform to the bitter end, man.

• 3:27Joe Rogan?

  Well Biden is not performing.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Trying to perform to the bitter end, yeah.

• 3:32Joe Rogan?

  Is strange.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, trying to keep at it.

• 3:34Joe Rogan?

  He's getting propped up. I think there's other people that are like pushing him towards the, get out there, come on. Like I think Jill's got her hands on his lower back.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Just giving a push.

• 3:44Joe Rogan?

  Get out there, come on, you can win again. I think I could have, could have beaten Trump. Yeah, it's, um, but it's that thing too where people, oh, one day you get to a certain age and you'll like, uh, uh, you know, I'm 57 and I used to think, oh, when I'm 57 I'll be done. I'll just, if I have some money, I'm just gonna relax.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:02Joe Rogan?

  That's nonsense. I don't wanna relax.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  How long do you think, how long do you think you, if you had to guess, how long would you do this podcast?

• 4:08Joe Rogan?

  This is the easiest thing I do.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Really?

• 4:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'll do this forever. It's so easy to do. Yeah, as long as I'm actually interested in talking to the people. How, how hard is that?

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Actually interested.

• 4:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but that's the only reason why I do it anyway.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, I only talk to people I want to talk to. So, no one ever tells me, you know, have this person on your show. There's, there's literally zero input from anyone else. So, everybody I talk to, I look at, I go, do I want to talk to that guy? That might be cool. That'd be interesting. I want to find out what makes him tick. I want to find out what, why she writes those books like that. I want to find out, you know, what, what keeps him going. That, that's like, the whole, the whole reason why I do it is because I enjoy it.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  If, do you picture, do you picture walking away from stand-up before you'd walk away from podcasts?

• 4:53Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. Why would I do that too? I have my own club now.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  I'm fifty years old, man. I'm just starting to wonder. I'm just starting to have all these questions.

• 5:00Joe Rogan?

  Nah, I think you enjoy, you just stay healthy. Stay healthy and do what you enjoy doing. I think live in the moment. I think this idea of like planning for the future is like silly. I really do. I think you should have goals. Like, if you enjoy doing things and you're like, I would like to get to this point. I would like to do this. And something to strive towards, that's good. But this idea of like, you know, one day you're just gonna like stop doing stuff. Like, why?

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:25Joe Rogan?

  Are you alive? Are you enjoying doing it? Yeah, shut the fuck up. Like, you could be so much worse off. There's so many things to dwell on, other than whether or not I want to stop doing something that I enjoy. Why would I ever even think about that?

• 5:38Speaker 02

  That's a good point, man. It's a good point. These are all questions I had never really thought about, but I've been more interested in them after I crossed that threshold, you know?

• 5:45Joe Rogan?

  But I could conceive a time where I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to be a public person anymore. The public aspect of it is the weirdest part. The people constantly wanting your time and everybody thinking that if I can connect with this guy, that I can make a lot of money. I can set up a business with him. I can do this with him. I could do that with him. He can introduce me to this. I can, you know, work with him. I could, there's a lot of that. A lot of that that's exhausting. A lot of these like opportunists and weirdos.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:12Joe Rogan?

  You know, those, those are exhausting.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  I remember years ago, three, four years ago, you told me that you wished you were, uh, we were eating barbecue and you told me you wished you were ten percent less famous.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  But I feel like then you got 20% more famous.

• 6:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I fucked up. Well, I thought doing the Spotify.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  I was like, his direction isn't going the right way.

• 6:34Joe Rogan?

  That was the whole reason why I took the Spotify deal. I was like, good, they're gonna give me a lot of money and it'll only be on Spotify, so I'll be about 10% less famous. Good. Let me slide off into obscurity. Because all, I mean, as long as I'm making money, I was like, I just enjoy doing it. I don't care how many people, like, the people that like it will still listen. So maybe I'll have less casual fans, like, who cares? Who cares? You know?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:59Joe Rogan?

  There's a certain level of fame, though, that's a little unmanageable, and I'm in that level.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:04Joe Rogan?

  It's very unmanageable.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  You know what it is? Well, I, part, you know, if you'll allow me to tell you what it is.

• 7:10Joe Rogan?

  Okay, please do.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  And, and I, I observed this, uh,

• 7:15Speaker 02

  I observed this, my, my wife was traveling through right now. I observed this after, uh, we had dinner with you one time, and, um,

• 7:23Speaker 02

  certain individuals, you included, would be that, um,

• 7:29Speaker 02

  it's not necessarily, it's, it's not just people that don't like you. Right? There's people that like you too much.

• 7:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. People that don't like you just avoid you.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  I know, and so it's like, you got it, like, at a certain point, you gotta worry about the people that like you.

• 7:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, believe me, I know.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Cause they like you a lot.

• 7:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I know. Yeah, and they, they also.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  They're like, I'd like to take, kidnap that Joe Rogan and bring him home with me.

• 7:54Joe Rogan?

  They want me to come to their house.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Keep him in my basement.

• 7:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I get, I get, like, letters, people want me to come to their house. I get it, you know, especially if you don't know anyone famous, and the thing about podcasts, too, is like, you're so intimately connected to that person, cause you hear that person talk all the time.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:09Joe Rogan?

  I do four of these a week, so it's like they're hearing me, you know, it's fucking 12 hours a week of me talking to you.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:16Joe Rogan?

  It's a lot.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that thing, I mean, it comes up, it's over observed. Um, Tim Ferriss mentioned it to me. He's like, people think like, they think they know you, but he's like, but they do.

• 8:31Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  They do.

• 8:32Joe Rogan?

  They do, and you don't know them.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:34Joe Rogan?

  Which is real weird.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, they know, they know what you think about stuff. They know what you think about current events. They know about your background, right?

• 8:39Joe Rogan?

  The good thing about that, though, is if like someone tries to pretend you're something other than you are, if like there's a smear campaign against you, people are like, no, I know that guy.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 8:49Joe Rogan?

  Like, they actually know you.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:50Joe Rogan?

  They really know you. Like, people have listened to me like a hundred hours. There's no, there's no confusion. There's no like guesswork. Like, this is who I am.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:58Joe Rogan?

  I'm not that complicated.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  It's a long charade.

• 9:00Joe Rogan?

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  Use promo code ROGEN by January 31st, and you will get the Visible plan for just $20 a month for 25 months. That's $5 off every month for over two years. So, go to visible.com/rogan and check it out. It's wireless made simple. Terms apply. See their website for the details.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  That'd be a long charade that you've played.

• 9:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Imagine, imagine you bullshitted people for that long. That's, oh, amazing.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Like a hundred thousand hour charade, a hundred thousand hour charade.

• 10:04Joe Rogan?

  Bullshitting people. Yeah. But, you know, there's always that suspicion when you see someone on television that they're not really that way because there's been like Ellen, like the Ellen situation.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:16Joe Rogan?

  You know, and people found out that Ellen was mean, and all these people came out and said, Ellen's actually a fucking bitch. And everyone, oh, I can't believe it. And she lost everything. She fell apart, disappeared. Because people found out that this character that she was portraying in a half an hour on a television show is not really who she was.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 10:33Joe Rogan?

  You know, but I hadn't already known that because I had a buddy who worked for her. Like, and he was like, she's a fucking monster.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. I didn't have, I didn't have a lot of, I didn't really. Had a lot of awareness. You probably did just from being in the business.

• 10:46Joe Rogan?

  I only did because of my buddy.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:48Joe Rogan?

  My buddy Greg, who was one of her writers. It's like, she's a piece of shit.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't know enough to be surprised.

• 10:55Joe Rogan?

  It's just people that, um, they get in those positions of power. And if their whole life, they've been fucked with and picked on, or, you know, they've been marginalized. And then all of a sudden, they're in control, like, oh, now it's payback. There's a lot of those folks.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  That's what happened to Castro.

• 11:11Joe Rogan?

  Is that it? Is that what happened to Castro?

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like, you know, I mean, it's like the, in fact, I would talk about that a little bit in some, you know, I've discussed that in like various conversations around when you watch like certain political fortunes rise as it becomes, things become vindictive.

• 11:28Joe Rogan?

  I don't even go to Canada anymore. I won't go to Canada for UFC. I don't go over there.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Man, I've spent my whole life in the northern tier states, but I've remained, um, somewhat oblivious to political movements in Canada.

• 11:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, they don't have free speech up there. They don't have a first amendment. They have different laws. They have hate speech laws.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:49Joe Rogan?

  Which are very dangerous because who defines hate speech?

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:53Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, so hate speech laws in Canada, they refer to gender pronouns now. So like, not just male, female, like if a guy, like if Caitlyn Jenner decides that she's a girl, like Bruce Jenner decides he's a girl. Now you have to call him Caitlyn. If you don't, that's hate speech. Like, okay, maybe that's debatable. Maybe you're being an asshole. But no, they want like all 78 fake genders, like Z, Zer, and all these fucking crazy fake ones and they thems and.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Well, that's where like, that's, I mean, isn't that conversation what spawned kind of the ascendancy of, uh, Jordan Peterson?

• 12:25Joe Rogan?

  100%.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Coming out of Canada.

• 12:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's how Jordan and I became friends.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:29Joe Rogan?

  In 2015. And then Jordan did my podcast and then Jordan became a famous guy for speaking out against this.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:37Joe Rogan?

  He's going through some sort of bizarre re-education process in Canada. And he's going to, uh, publicize it because it's so ludicrous. So they, they want to educate him on, uh, like what he, what he talks about on social media. Media if he wants to keep his clinical license to practice as a psychotherapist.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Oh, is that right?

• 12:58Joe Rogan?

  But he doesn't want to practice anyway. He makes far more money doing what they've essentially made a monster. They made him way more famous than he ever would have been. They they highlighted all of Canada's problems way more than would ever get highlighted without this persecution of this guy. It's kind of crazy, though. So he's going through it. He's like, fuck you. I'll I'll go through it and I'll go through it publicly. You guys are idiots. Also.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Know what the outcome will be.

• 13:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, knowing he's gonna trounce them, like, good luck debating that guy. Good fucking luck. Like, good luck. Like, who do you got on your side? That's gonna go up against that guy. Like, shut the fuck up. Who on your creepy authoritarian totalitarian regime is gonna stand up and make sense? Competing against Jordan Peterson. Good fucking luck.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  I wouldn't want the job.

• 13:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, good luck. Good luck debating that guy. It's just the the whole the whole situation up there is just like so fucked. And I don't know too much about that Pierre Polvet guy, but I I hope that, you know, there's some sort of meaningful change up there that could bring. I still love Canada. I used to say Canada is like America, but like twenty percent less douchebags. They were so friendly. They're so nice. I still love going to Montreal. I still love going to Vancouver. I loved it up there. But some the woke shit hit there so hard because they don't have freedom of speech. They don't have a first amendment. So when they start clamping down on your ability to express yourself, like, there's a really disastrous implications.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. But there'll probably, I mean, there will probably be a course correction now, which seems like just generally on free speech issues. There's a radical course correction right now.

• 14:37Joe Rogan?

  Sure, or you become Iran.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Roll that way.

• 14:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, course correction doesn't always work. Like, you know, we think it works because it works in America. And it works in America because we have the first amendment and we have the second amendment, and those two things work together. And if we didn't have those things, we would be genuinely fucked because every government wants to eventually completely and totally control its population. Because it's way easier for them to make money. And that's what they like to do.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:04Joe Rogan?

  They like to make money, they like to be in bed with the lobbyists and the military industrial complex and the pharmaceutical industrial complex. And they like to fucking import impose their will on people. And if you can't express yourself and say, hey, this is fucked up. This is crazy. Why am I doing this? Like, these studies show that you're not correct. If you can't say all those things, which right now you can't do in Canada, it's not the same. Like their ability to express themselves on the internet has been severely limited. It's real weird, man. It's real weird and it's happening right. You could walk there. If you wanted to, you could walk there. And it's fucked. It's like it's on the same patch of land as us and it's fucked. It just shows you what can happen here if you don't have the right laws. Because people like that fuckhead, Justin, they pretend.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  You guys are on a first name basis.

• 15:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that cocksucker. They pretend that they're, and I don't talk this way about anybody.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  No, I'm really surprised.

• 15:55Joe Rogan?

  I I genuinely despise people like that. And I think it's good to say it publicly. Because people need to understand like what these people are doing. These people are leading you on the road to legitimate communism. Like he's he's leading that country on a road to legitimate communism. It's very dangerous. And I think most Canadians are fed up with it. At this point, it's just like the party, the party up there has so much control. And he's been forced to resign, so he's got to step down. And just hopefully they don't get some new slick talker to con them into the same old bullshit. Hopefully someone comes along that has like real meaningful change.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:31Joe Rogan?

  Which is what I'm hoping is gonna happen in America too. If that Tim Walz cocksucker, if that guy got into into power, like if Kamala died and Tim Walz, Tampon Tim, was our fucking president, you know how crazy this country would be? That weirdo puts tampons in the boys' room and what about our joy? Like he's a complete pathological liar, like a complete liar, lied about being in Tiananmen Square, lied about being a fucking uh, head coach of a football team.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought some of that was, uh, just weird and how avoidable it was.

• 17:03Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent avoidable, but pathological liars, people that are habitual liars, they just lie all the time about everything.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  But there's a way, uh.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  There's a way you can do it where it's sort of like no one's ever gonna know. And there's things you can fib about that are just, you find out in five seconds. So you wonder about making the call to embellish something that a person could answer on their phone.

• 17:30Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Like, almost as you're saying it.

• 17:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That's not true. No, this was your rank in the military. Oh, you didn't deploy for war. You didn't. Why are you saying you deployed at war? The weapons you used in war? No, no, no. You weren't in war. Like, oh, you were a headfo- no, you weren't a head coach. You were the water boy.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:47Joe Rogan?

  The fuck are you talking about?

• 17:48Speaker 02

  I thought some of that was weird.

• 17:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's just a liar. But that's what a lot of these people are. They're just, they're just actors who are ugly. And they're like, wow, I can't really make it in show business. And I want a lot of attention. I want to be a special person. So I'll do politics. I'm good at bullshitting. And most people, you know, they're trusting. They're like, oh, he's saying the right things. If you say the right things, you know, abracadabra. And then next thing you know, you're a fucking governor.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. You ever gonna run for governor of Texas?

• 18:15Joe Rogan?

  No! No, I'm not running for nothing. I don't want to do nothing. I don't want to do a goddamn thing.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  I can picture down the road, man, you might be like, I want to be governor of Texas.

• 18:25Joe Rogan?

  Fuck that. Why would I do that? I have the best job in the world. I get to talk shit with zero responsibilities. If I get something wrong, you're like, listen, I'm a moron. Why are you listening to me in the first place? No, I have no desire in any way, shape, or form to have anything to do with anything involving politics. Or I don't want to be in control of it. I don't even like having employees. Jamie's awesome. But I mean, I don't like having employees.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  He nodded.

• 18:48Joe Rogan?

  But he's just great. He's just great. He's easy. Like, that's why there's so few of us here. You know, like, I have a friend who has a podcast, a big podcast, and he has like fucking 13 people working for him. People running around with clipboards. I'm like, what do these people do? Like, why do you have so many people working for you? Like, this doesn't freak you out? And he's always got like inter-office conflicts. And people are getting fired because people are fighting with each other. And people are fighting over like promotions and trying to get to, like, backstabbing each other and like, ugh.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe you wouldn't like being governor.

• 19:18Joe Rogan?

  Fuck that. I would hate it. I wouldn't want, I don't want to be a mayor. I don't want to be nothing. I don't want to be nothing. But I did get some sort of-

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Not even a mayor?

• 19:27Joe Rogan?

  No. I don't want to be a city councilman. I don't want to be a congressman. I don't want to be shit. I don't like the whole thing about it. It's just, it's not, it's not a good gig. It's just a creepy business. It's a very creepy and prostitutinal business. It's just, I don't like it.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Part of the impetus that pushes people into it is that they want to reverse that, but I think that then there's a-

• 19:55Joe Rogan?

  Good luck.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  There's a magnetic pull that takes you in the direction of being perhaps what you wanted to get-

• 20:00Joe Rogan?

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• 20:45Joe Rogan?

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• 21:31Joe Rogan?

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• 22:13Joe Rogan?

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• 22:17Speaker 02

  Good of.

• 22:18Joe Rogan?

  Seems like it happens to a lot of the like really idealistic young people that get involved in it and then all of a sudden they start doing really well in the stock market and.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. They make some good bets.

• 22:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they, you know, they used to be making $28,000 a year. Now all of a sudden they're worth 12 million. Now they're worth 20 million and they're hanging out with a bunch of other people that are going on yachts on vacations. I'm like, I'm gonna go on a yacht and vacation. Next thing you know, you know, I want Mercedes. And then they like to get you. They slowly get you, you know? You know Evan Hafer? Evan Hafer had a great saying. I've been repeating it a lot, too much lately for people to listen to this podcast, but he said, psychology is more contagious than the flu. I was like, ooh, that's so true.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, like ideas in psychology.

• 23:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, being around people.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I'm with you. Yeah.

• 23:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Absorb the way they think.

• 23:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. If you're around people that are just trying to have a good time, that are nice people, genuinely you lean in that direction.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:18Joe Rogan?

  You know, like I try to spread that. I want everybody to have fun. Like, let's have a good time.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:22Joe Rogan?

  Like if you're around a bunch of creeps that are just trying to climb the ladder and claw their way into power, like, ugh.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:29Joe Rogan?

  How do you maintain your sovereignty?

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that kind of psychological infection.

• 23:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, good luck. Good luck battling it out with 460 other creeps who show up in DC and lie. Yuck.

• 23:46Joe Rogan?

  Although I did get like a bizarre.

• 23:51Joe Rogan?

  I did enjoy affecting the election.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Oh, I can, oh dude, imagine. I can imagine.

• 23:58Joe Rogan?

  I did enjoy because I didn't want to. I did, I did not want to get involved in any way, shape or form, but it got so weird.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'd, you'd, you'd express that publicly in, in the past.

• 24:07Joe Rogan?

  I was like, I don't want to have nothing, and I don't want to have anything to do with it in the future. I don't. I didn't want to. I just felt sucked into it. I'm like,

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:14Joe Rogan?

  Like, we can't do this again. We can't do it with these same people that fucked us for four years, and then they're gonna like, we're gonna do it differently now. Like, like, what's going on? Did you see what's going on? Obviously, you've seen what's going on in California. But the governor gave this creepy fucking speech where he was talking about speculators coming in and, and talking about what to do with the land of all these homes that have been burnt down, while these, while it's still only 6% contained. And he did this little dance, like, I've been talking with these, you know, with the governor of Hawaii about what to do. We've got some ideas, a speculator, we're gonna have some meetings, like,

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Really?

• 24:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, show it to him, Jamie. It's so creepy, because it's happening while these people are, their houses have been burned, all their childhood memorabilia, all their, the stuff for their kids, the photos, the fucking, everything they have. Everything they have is gone. All heirlooms, you know, their, their mother's wedding ring, that kinda shit. Everything's burnt to the ground. And this guy's like, standing in front of all this stuff, and he's got a smile on his face, and he's talking about land use.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  The development plans.

• 25:20Joe Rogan?

  Watch this, play this.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  I'm, I was just talking to Josh Green, the governor of, uh, down in, in Hawaii. He had some ideas around some land use concerns he has around speculators coming in, buying up properties, uh, and the like, so we're already working with our legal teams to, uh, to move those things forward, and we'll be presenting those in, in a matter of days, not just weeks.

• 25:41Joe Rogan?

  With big smile on his face. Look at the little wiggle he does with his shoulders. Speculator, watch this. Talking to Josh, look, look, look at this, look at this little wiggle. It's excited about the possibilities of speculators coming in, and he's saying, we're, move forward. We're gonna move forward on that. These people lost their homes. A lot of those people don't even have fire insurance, because the fire insurance pulled out of California. I think like 69% of fire insurance pulled out of California, because they're like, this is too crazy. Like, you guys aren't doing jack shit to manage this. You're not clearing the brush. The amount of money they could have saved by just clearing brush. Like filling the reservoir, that 11 million gallon reservoir was completely empty during the time of full fire season?

• 26:25Joe Rogan?

  Like, why, why didn't you fix that?

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:28Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's all insanely mismanaged. And then this guy is on television, talking, really excited about that. Doing a dance in front of the burned down home that people used to sleep in, where their children would sleep in. Like, this is so disgusting.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  You know, uh.

• 26:44Joe Rogan?

  That's why I don't want to be governor.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, you know what's funny? I was gonna tell you about, on the way down here, I happened to be sitting across from one of our senators from Montana. And, and, uh, after, when the, when the flight was getting off, you know, it's hilarious, this, this, this old timer comes by him and, and legitimately, I'm not joking, legitimately brings up to him potholes on the road.

• 27:10Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  On the airplane. It's like, you gotta do something about these potholes. I'm outside of Belgrade and those potholes are terrible. He's like, okay, yeah, got it, got it.

• 27:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, the senator can't do much about, obviously.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  No, I know, but it's just like, it's almost like a cliche. But, you know, the thing with, uh, what's, their night, uh, guys that I grew up with, um, you know, like a, a fish that was very central to our upbringing was a, was a fish called smelt. There's different kinds of smelt. So, we had a rainbow smelt and they were, they live in the Great Lakes. And so in the spring, when the smelt run, you know, it was a big deal to go smelt dipping. And we would smelt dip them in, with drop nets and dip nets, it was a huge thing. And, and when smelt numbers were really high, you know, it was just like, it kind of brought everybody together.

• 27:58Joe Rogan?

  A lot of my buddies used to do that in Massachusetts.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  The smelt run.

• 28:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  So the other night, someone had taken out a clip where, uh, someone had taken out a chunk of an article in my friend's circle and had sent me a thing where, where Trump had called the Delta smelt like a basically useless fish. And, and I was like, man, I feel like there needs to be like a, um, like an article in the constitution that the president cannot shit talk smelt, you know?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  But then I realized it was a different smell. So I cooled off once I realized it was the Delta smell and not our beloved Rainbow Smelt.

• 28:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, you can have, there's a balance, right? In terms of like being environmentally conscious, but also recognizing the needs of the human population. And I think that's been distorted in California significantly.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I do get like my hackles get up when my hackles get up about disparaging, disparaging fishes and birds.

• 28:53Joe Rogan?

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• 30:13Joe Rogan?

  I get it. That's your world. That's your world. Yeah, it's um, there's a balance, a balance to be held for sure. You know, I'm not real thrilled with this idea of like continuing to to drill for oil in the Gulf and drill for oil everywhere and knowing that occasionally these things blow up and you have a massive pollution and but also I don't think we should be dependent on Saudi Arabia for all our oil.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  It's a mix. You know, one of the, one of the kind of contradictions you encounter with stuff like this, and I've been a little bit involved in this the last few years as I started going down to the Gulf of Mexico to spearfish on the oil rigs. And so the oil rigs are, they're, imagine like a vertical coral reef, you know, you, I don't want to call it, by no means I don't want to call the Gulf a desert, but I mean, you could, if you're away from the rigs, you could swim along the surface for miles potentially, right? If you're just swimming with a snorkel and mask, you can swim along the surface for miles and not encounter fish. I mean, it's kind of where you're seeing them in front of your face.

• 31:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  And you pull up to a rig and it's, it's hung in fish. I mean, it's, it's, they're, they're draped in thousands of fish. Okay? So, you know, you grow up with this idea, if you just have a passive understanding of all this stuff, you grow up this idea that like oil ex, oil exploration equals a diminishing of natural life, a diminishing of wildlife. And you go in, uh, and there there's this big debate where certain people want to pull the abandoned rigs out, but you have fishermen who are like, they're here now, leave them, because that's where all the fish are.

• 32:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  You know, and it's this, it's this very, it's this very spirited debate and different administrations will have different plans. They had a program like Idle Iron, which was to pull them out. There was a program called Rigs to Reefs, which is to tip them over so they're not navigational hazards. The shrimpers don't like them because they, they're, they're, you know, they cause like navigational obstructions. You can hang your gear up on them, but all the rod and reel fishermen and all the spear fishermen want the rigs there. So you wind up in this situation like that where it's this real complexity and you can picture. You know, it puts people in a situation in viewing it, it puts you in a situation where it's not that clean.

• 32:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  You know, like you're creating, I mean, you, they.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  You almost hate to say it, cause you're supposed to, you know, you know, you're supposed to be, uh, and you know, most people from the environmental movement are anti oil exploration, but then you go and look and be like, they created like an un- accidentally created an unbelievable fishery.

• 33:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  In the Gulf. And there's dudes now, like I got buddies that spearfish there and fish there. And it's like, you remember in Star Wars, the original Star Wars, where they go to that fucking planet and the planet's gone? Don't hey, shouldn't the planet be here? You know, that scene? I've been with buddies of mine and they got, they got GPS marks for rigs. And you show up and it's like Star Wars. It's like you show up and the rig's not there anymore. Cause there's these ships out there called rig reapers that are out plucking the rigs and they're plucking them faster than they can put them in. But it's got all the fishermen pissed off.

• 33:39Joe Rogan?

  That's an interesting situation.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, they want them there now, man.

• 33:42Joe Rogan?

  Lake Austin has a similar situation. So Lake Austin used to be this, it's still very good for bass fishing. They have big bass on Lake Austin. And, um, the people that live on the lake, you know, the high falutin folks didn't like all the weeds. So they brought in carp.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 34:01Joe Rogan?

  And the carp ate everything. So now the, the place looks like the bottom of a swimming pool.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:05Joe Rogan?

  It's like all the vegetation is fucked. And so the bass don't have a lot of places to go like, you know, where, where I live, people go to the docks. Like they, they cast to the docks, you know, and they, they fish near people's docks. Cause that's like the only cover that these fish have. And so there's talk of like submerging like trees or, you know, dropping.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Sure, creating structures.

• 34:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, creating structures. And then there's people that are opposed to that. Cause like, you know, you have your, you know, the wakeboarders and all the people that like to like recreation on the water. They don't want anything that could possibly fuck up their boat.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:40Joe Rogan?

  You know, but like you've, they already fucked it up by bringing in the carp, like, and you can't get the carp out. Like, how are you gonna kill the carp?

• 34:47Speaker 02

  You know, Tom, you remember the writer, Tom, was it Tom Robbins or Tim? No, Tim Robbins is the actor, right?

• 34:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Tom Robbins, skinny, skinny, uh, skinny legs and all. Jitterbug perfume. He had a line where, um, you know, like in Hawaii, they had this famous thing where they had a rat problem. And then they brought in mongooses to kill the rats. And then now they got a mongoose problem.

• 35:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  He had some line that like, um, we used to have a crime problem and we brought in cops.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  It's a like my first, uh, you're talking about political involvement. My first time, like my first time I ever approached anything remotely political was on the lake I grew up on, we had an, uh, we had an invasive seaweed, an invasive aquatic plant called Eurasian milfoil. And it grew in our lake, but it made unbelievable fish habitat. And at the time I was not hip enough to understand the deleterious effects of non-native vegetation. I just knew that when you wanted to catch a fish, you went to the milfoil bed because all the fish were hiding in the milfoil. And they had this proposal to come in and kill all the milfoil in all the lakes. And I went down and I remember I was, that was in high school. I went down,

• 36:00Speaker 02

  I remember I was the sole person there to represent like the milfoil side of the argument.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  And then they did it. They went in and poisoned all the milfoil out of the lakes in hopes of, you know, bringing in like the native seaweeds would take hold. But it, I mean, it absolutely transformed the lake. And from a fishery perspective, from a, not a perspective of native habitat, but from a pounds of fish perspective, the pounds of fish, like the biomass of fish declined.

• 36:30Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  By pulling out the weeds.

• 36:33Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  You know, and it's again, like some, you, on one hand, you look like, well, why would you mess up with this? There's fish everywhere. And some people be like, well, it's not a native plant and we need to value native wildlife, um, at the expense of what, you know, a high schooler would look at as like, it's where the fish are.

• 36:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  You know?

• 36:48Joe Rogan?

  They didn't do what they did to Lake Austin. They didn't do it to Lady Bird Lake. So if you go to Lady Bird Lake, it's just hopping with bass.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Remained a good fishery.

• 36:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's seaweed and all kinds of, or not seaweed, but you know, lily pads and all kinds of shit over there that you don't have on Lake Austin. They didn't bring in the carp.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. The, the other enormously destructive thing.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  That they've done around the lakes where I grew up on is all that, so much of that, that life, the lake life relies on what you call like the littoral zone. So, you know, the shoreline zone and most of these fish species, they like it to be dirty, meaning weeds falling over trees. Like it creates all kinds of habitat, right? For little stuff to hide. And on these lakes where I grew up in Michigan, there's been a tendency over the years to, to, to, to round up, put roundup on your shoreline and then haul in beach sand. And you, you just watch over the years, like over the course of my lifetime, you just watch this like really like verdant, kind of like vibrant environment become increasingly like a swimming

• 37:53Speaker 02

  pool. And a lot, and a lot of those lakes, man, and it's just been, it's just been, it's just been depressing to watch happen.

• 37:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we were talking the other day about eating freshwater fish and how, how much toxic chemicals are in freshwater fish. It's fucking bananas.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, they have state advisories, which I've always ignored. I've always ignored.

• 38:14Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever get your blood tested?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  No, but you want to know, I might've told you this story, man. Did I ever tell you a story about this?

• 38:19Joe Rogan?

  Which one?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell it real quick. So I grew up with a guy who, a guy named Ron Spring.

• 38:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  He had his, I tell you the Ron Spring story?

• 38:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please do.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I tell the story to too many people.

• 38:31Joe Rogan?

  I don't think you told it on here.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Okay. I grew up with this guy, Ron Spring, and for a living, he was a commercial bait fisherman. He would, he would catch wigglers, minnows, he'd dig crawlers, catch leeches, and he would supply bait and tackle shops with live bait. And he had spring sporting goods where he sold his own live bait. And he would even hire women to sew what's called a spawn sack, where you take little bits of salmon, pieces of salmon roe, salmon eggs, and sew them into a little mesh bag for steelhead bait. He was just in the bait business, but also was a fishing fanatic and lived off fish his whole life. So he was living off Great Lakes fish his whole life. And the University of Montana started trying to

• 39:13Speaker 02

  track down old timers who'd eaten like enormous quantities of Great Lakes fish, Great Lakes fish, to test them for heavy metals exposure. Okay. And, and, and other toxic things are in the environment. And he'd lived his whole life like me with like a complete defiance of health advisory suggestions about fish consumption.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  And he goes down there and he and he would go in every month or two for these little batteries of tests. And one of the things they would do with them is they would tell them they'd give them a grocery list. And they'd be like, hey, you gotta go to the store and buy like bread, eggs, cheese, butter, whatever. And then they'd wait a minute and they'd say, what were you supposed to buy at the store? You know, and he's telling me this story and he told me, I always laugh because he said, um, Steve, I wouldn't have remembered that list if I never ate a piece of fish in my life.

• 40:04Joe Rogan?

  So they were trying to like gauge his memory based on the amount of heavy metal in his body?

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were trying to, they're presumably they tested his blood and found something of interest. And so they were trying to figure out like what happens to a guy. But I lived in Seattle and uh, right on Lake Washington and we would catch a lot of yellow perch. Because people that they're full of yellow perch, which are not native and everyone in that area in the Pacific Northwest is like a trout and salmon snob. So I had the whole fishery to myself. You know, you could go out and catch easily, you know, 100 plus yellow perch out of Lake Washington, but they had a health advisory on them and you weren't supposed to, they would tell you that perch over 12 inches, you're only supposed to eat one meal a month or some shit like that. But we just wouldn't keep them over 12 inches. Um, cause there weren't that many over 12 inches anyways. And we'd just eat

• 40:55Speaker 02

  them all the time. I would have fish fries. And when you fried fish in the Great Lakes, there's no person in the Great Lakes region that I was aware of, like in Michigan, there's no person that would even kind of give a shit about these restrictions. They would be surprised to hear that there were any kind of restrictions. But like the, the way the different sentiments and different mentalities run in Seattle, you'd have people that like, they're like, you caught it where? Lake Washington? No way. Right? Just like in a, like a level of awareness from like an urban environment about those kinds of toxins. And, and growing up, where I grew up, it was just not a thing that people discussed, even though they're right in the fishing rigs.

• 41:34Joe Rogan?

  When did it start happening? Like, when did freshwater fish become toxic? That would be something I'd be interested in.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Man, I think it's like, it's, it's mercury, it's certain industrial solvents.

• 41:45Joe Rogan?

  It's BPAs too.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think that with Lake Washington, there was a lot, correct me, maybe I'm wrong. Like, as I say this, I might be wrong. I think there was things around, um, Boeing plants and old solvents and stuff that went in the water. Uh, and then, and then, but mercury. Which comes from, you know, different ways. They have ways of scrubbing it now and greatly reducing the amount of mercury when you burn coal. But for a long time, um, mercury would come from the combustion of coal and it would be distributed globally evenly everywhere. So it didn't, it didn't necessarily matter if you were, it didn't matter if you're eating a pelagic fish. I mean, if, if you're eating like a pacivorous pelagic fish would seem to be the worst.

• 42:28Joe Rogan?

  What does a pelagic mean?

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Fish that live their life up at the surface. Okay. And then ones that eat fish, that eat fish, that eat fish are the worst. So picture you got like a, like a, like a marlin, right? He's eating tuna. Tuna are eating fish that are eating fish. And so they, they magnify and accumulate all this stuff and they're fat. That's, that's like globally distributed in the oceans. And um, they've slowed down mercury. Um, they've slowed down how much mercury is going out because of the ways they scrub when they clean, when they burn coal now. But it's just, it's stagnant in the environment.

• 43:03Joe Rogan?

  Did I tell you my arsenic story?

• 43:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:05Joe Rogan?

  I got my blood work done. You know, I get my blood work done pretty regularly and I went once, a few years back, quite a few years back, 15 years ago at least. Um, and my doctor said, you have a lot of arsenic in your blood. And I go like, someone's poisoning me? He's like, no. Do you eat a lot of fish?

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 43:25Joe Rogan?

  And I said, I eat a lot of sardines. He goes, how, how much? I go, four or five cans a night. And he was like, what? He's like, what the fuck are you doing? I go, what I come home?

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, what are you doing?

• 43:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, I love sardines. And when I'm, if like I come home from the comedy club and I'm hungry, it's easy to have like what I thought was like healthy, healthy food. It's just sardines and olive oil. What could be bad about that?

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Oh, I got you. Yeah.

• 43:48Joe Rogan?

  And so he said, take a few months off and then come back and let's do this again. And I took a few months off and I came back, no arsenic.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:55Joe Rogan?

  I was like, oh, man. He goes, it's not enough to be concerned, you know, but you're, you're getting arsenic in your blood from these sardines.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, uh, I worked with a guy Seth and, and, uh, he, he kinda had this perfect storm where we had been in Hawaii. So we had Wahoo and, and, uh, yellowfin tuna. And he fishes in Alaska. So he had all his halibut. And then he's got a bunch of walleye that he catches, you know, he's a big walleye fisherman that he catches locally. And, um, he wound up. Had like, there's like, kind of like a long-term mercury deal and a short-term mercury deal, but he had, he had mercury poisoning. His hands went numb and stuff.

• 44:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  And then I got to reading about it and there's, there's like various cases where, um, there's this other case that's kind of interesting. This guy gets on a cruise ship, never, doesn't eat fish. This guy like doesn't have fish in his diet. It was, it was a thing that was covered in the news. And he gets on the cruise, a cruise and they have all you can eat sushi thing. So he wants to get his money's worth. And so he's gorging himself on this all you can eat sushi during the course of his cruise and generates like, uh, generates mercury poisoning. Like a short-term version, you know? And dudes I hang out with in Hawaii that have, in Hawaii, they have access to a lot of big, pescivorous fish. They'll, they'll, they'll sort of like deliberately pace themselves, you know? Like they could live off tuna, right? But they'll deliberately pace themselves, keeping in mind the amount of that stuff

• 45:18Speaker 02

  you're getting in. And RFK Junior, I had RFK Junior on the show, on our podcast, and he had had, uh, he had had mercury poisoning.

• 45:26Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:28Joe Rogan?

  From what?

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Canned tuna. Was eating too much canned tuna.

• 45:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So maybe I've had, I don't know. I don't, I would, well, no, I've had my blood tested. I don't know. But, but I can't picture, the sentiment I have about, is a friend of mine, um, who fishes flathead catfish, which have, they accumulate a lot of bio, or not biotoxins, they accumulate a lot of, uh, heavy metals. And he said, and we were talking about eating this stuff, and he said, "If I can eat, if I can catch and eat so many big flatheads that it kills me, I win."

• 46:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's no cases of, uh, CWD getting into humans yet, right?

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 46:14Joe Rogan?

  No. But that's the big fear. Like you and I are on a text chain with Ted Nugent, and he's always like trying to-

• 46:19Speaker 02

  I met Ted's kid last night.

• 46:20Joe Rogan?

  Which one? Rocko?

• 46:21Speaker 02

  Rocko.

• 46:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Good kid. Um, you know, Ted is always trying to dismiss the concerns of CWD. He doesn't believe in it.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:31Joe Rogan?

  He thinks it's overhyped.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Well-

• 46:34Joe Rogan?

  It scares the fuck out of me.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:37Joe Rogan?

  Because it's a prion disease, right?

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:39Joe Rogan?

  So if it jumps to people and it has jumped to like certain rodent species, is that correct?

• 46:45Speaker 02

  No, right now it's just it's it's cervids.

• 46:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, just cervids?

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Cervids.

• 46:49Joe Rogan?

  There hasn't been a case of it jumping to like a mole or something like that?

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Well, they did. You know, when you do, I don't want to get in over my waders here, but I'd love to talk about CWD at length, but sometimes you can do a

• 47:06Speaker 02

  if someone does medical research and they'll they'll have a finding, there's a term for it. Let's say you have a finding that's alarming, but you haven't done peer review yet. Right. But let's say I just all of a sudden made some discovery that had huge implications and people would need to become immediately aware of what I might have found out, right? There's a term for it where you would release these, you release these like preliminary findings, even though it hasn't been held up to academic rigor because it's of such importance. Like a lot of times you don't get to skip that step, but in cases of medical, you get to skip a step and say like, hey, hang tight, we're not all the way there yet, but look, this is kind of alarming.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  They had a case and it all corroded, but these guys had a case where they were able to infect a rhesus monkey with CWD. But then it, you know, it didn't, wasn't replicable, didn't hold up. But think when things like that happen, they tend to get a ton of media. But then down the road, the media doesn't follow suit. Like there's been cases where there was one not longer where they were looking at people that had this rare form of dementia and they were kind of, they found that of these people that had this rare form of dementia, a couple of them had, were deer hunters who lived in CWD areas, right? So they come out with a, hey, everybody, check this out. But then it winds up being that when you do a statistical analysis on it,

• 48:32Speaker 02

  it was it was no different than anything else. There was no reason that that it wasn't like they scored higher, that deer hunters scored higher or nothing.

• 48:40Joe Rogan?

  It's just a certain percentage of people get dementia.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so it's like a certain number of people eat dementia, a certain number of people eat venison. And statistically, you're going to have some overlap if you survey enough people. So even though they gave like a big heads up, it won't be nothing there. Uh, but yeah, CWD, um, it's an, it's a highly infectious disease. It was first identified in Colorado on a game, on a, on a research facility, not a game farm. It was first identified on a cervid research facility in Colorado, I believe in the early seventies. And then there's been a, there's been a, a debate, like some, some people feel that it was always there and wasn't detected. Right? And that we, that it wasn't like we found it the minute it came out. It was just that it would perhaps

• 49:26Speaker 02

  had been there and then we discovered that it was always there. Um,

• 49:32Speaker 02

  but it does, it does expand its range all the time. Right? Um, even in the last few years, we've had our first cases in Montana and you, we keep every year we add, like without fail, every year we find CWD in states where it didn't previously exist, or within states that have CWD, we find CWD in counties that didn't have it. Oftentimes you can look and it makes sense because it flows, but now and then you get these weird jumps, right? Where, where, um, something jumps a big mote of inactivity and then all of a sudden you get like a new hotspot and you look and be like, well, how did, if it's an infectious disease and deer aren't flying in airplanes, how did it jump? Some of the jumps, people tie it to transporting, there's

• 50:18Speaker 02

  a theory that is well accepted in a lot of circles would be that, that moving cervids, moving deer and elk, um, to penned operations has facilitated the movement of CWD. Uh, what, what it used to mean to be a, if someone was a CWD denier before, it would be that they, they, they denied that it was a thing. Like there is no disease called CWD. There's generally, it's generally accepted now that there's a disease called CWD, but, but now the debate is like, is sort of, does it matter or not? Right? Uh, our mutual friend Doug Dern is like heavily involved in, in, in CWD, combating CWD, trying to get more money spent to understand CWD.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  And they look at you, you're looking at, there's two risks with CWD. One risk is that ultimately it's going to lead to like destruction of deer herds. Meaning if you get like, it's always fatal. And if infection rates get to a certain point, we're going to lose deer. Right? Like if it's always fatal and you have infection rates of 50 or 60% and it takes a couple of years to kill them, like you're going to run out of big bucks. Cause nothing can live long enough. The other fear is that it jumps the barrier and becomes a human pathogen. You know, so people, you know, all the hunters I know, like the question we always talk about is like, do you, do you, would you eat CWD positive meat? You know?

• 51:43Joe Rogan?

  Right. Even if it doesn't jump currently, would you take that risk?

• 51:47Speaker 02

  So Yanni, Yanni was recently with a guy and he's like, he's eaten, him and his family have eaten four CWD positive deer.

• 51:55Joe Rogan?

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• 53:21Joe Rogan?

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• 53:51Speaker 02

  Um, man, uh,

• 53:56Speaker 02

  I couldn't, I can't, I like, I couldn't serve it to my kids.

• 53:59Joe Rogan?

  No, I wouldn't eat it myself either.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  I can't serve it to my kids. I don't, I have annoyingly eat it, but here's the thing, here's the rub.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Um, I've said this number before and people like, that's not true, but it's true. I'm telling you, hundreds of thousands of people have eaten CWD positive. Hundreds of thousands of people have eaten CWD positive meat.

• 54:18Joe Rogan?

  I would imagine that's true.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Over many decades.

• 54:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Right? So at what point do you, at what point do you get comfortable?

• 54:29Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  It's, it's a dude, it's a tough one.

• 54:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a tough one.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  It's a tough one.

• 54:35Joe Rogan?

  It can jump.

• 54:37Joe Rogan?

  It hasn't.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  It hasn't.

• 54:38Joe Rogan?

  But when you look at the history of these types of diseases, especially prion diseases like mad cow, prion disease, jumped people.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  You know, the debate between prion and prion?

• 54:49Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  You know, it's, you hear.

• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  I used to say prion, but then I heard scientists say prion and I wanted to sound smart.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Well, the, the biologist Jim Heffelfinger,

• 55:01Speaker 02

  you should, that's, that'd be a very good guy for you to have on your show someday. The biologist Jim Heffelfinger sent me a thing where the guy that named it, the guy that coined the term, spelled out phonetically how it's supposed to be pronounced. So then I was like, okay, I'm gonna stick with preon now. It's the guy that came up with it says.

• 55:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so that's what it is?

• 55:21Speaker 02

  And not prior. Yeah, he's like said, he's like, we'll call it this and we'll pronounce it this way.

• 55:27Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so it's preon.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  It's now I'm now I'm trying to I always try to remember which one it is and it's a yeah, it's preon. It's scary, dude, it's scary and Doug. I said it a hundred times like before, like. If I say, man, the main thing I'm worried about is people getting it.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Uh, that pisses Doug off because Doug's worried about that we're gonna lose big bucks. And people he just he like he like he know he wants to shut like he's a. He wants to, he likes healthy deer.

• 55:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  He doesn't want a disease running through his deer herd.

• 56:01Joe Rogan?

  It hasn't jumped the cows or anything else.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  No, and that's the see, that's one area where. I'm gonna get myself in trouble, Doug, in all kinds of ways, because that's the thing I think about is a. It's not that there I'm not saying the ag world is complacent. Right, I'm not saying they're complacent, like, there's a lot of interest in the agricultural community to understand CWD better. But if you look and be like, dude, a cow looks a hell of a lot more like a deer than I do.

• 56:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna watch the cow. And all of a sudden, these cows start getting sick, then my ass is gonna get nervous.

• 56:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  But I'm like, they're rubbing noses with these deer.

• 56:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and it gets on the grass, it gets on the vegetation.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  And you can't kill that shit.

• 56:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  I remember some politician was like, well, just cook your deer meat longer and I was like, well, you I can't remember what it is. You can't cook deer meat to fourteen hundred degrees.

• 56:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you have to incinerate it.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Or whatever, you know, whatever else it becomes, but but yeah, cooking it isn't the thing. It can survive, that's why if you hunt, there's a lot of restrictions now on moving carcasses around. Right, so more and more states are implementing that when you go home, they don't want you bringing the head home. They don't want you bringing the bones home. I also fear for a time and it'd just be terrible if you're for a time where you couldn't bring anything like we they really restrict movement, you know?

• 57:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Like, it's easy to like, it's very easy to comply with not moving bones. It's easy to comply with not moving brain matter like that's easy, right?

• 57:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  But picture that this gets out of hand and all of a sudden it's like you can't move venison across county lines. I don't know.

• 57:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Like, no one's throwing this out there, but as we look at as they look at like further and further restrictions. It's scary and so from a guy like from from from. I don't want to speak for Nugent, but from his idea of being overblown is his idea would be,

• 57:47Speaker 02

  like I said, I hate speaking for the guy. It would be that here we are making policy changes, making game management changes, making rule changes, adjusting what you can and can't do in the woods, based off a thing that most people would be like, but we haven't proven there's a problem. That would be his perspective on it. My perspective is it's scary as shit. And I, and as much as our government right now is trying to find a way to stop spending so much money, I support any money that can get spent on finding out if this can be a real problem or not. Like I, that's, I'll find other places to get the money, but I'd like to channel taxpayer dollars, billions of them into making sure deer meat stays safe. That's my kind of pork barrel spending.

• 58:32Joe Rogan?

  There's no way to eradicate it, right? Like you, there's no way to identify the deer that have it, that haven't exhibited symptoms, and they're spreading it.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're looking at ways to test live animals. Then there's, there's other cockamamie ideas that one would be that some deer seem to be, um, some deer, yeah, and so that you'd, you'd move these resilient deer into other populations to try to breed in some kind of resiliency, which, you know, it's a wild animal.

• 59:05Joe Rogan?

  Is it ultimately resilient? Cause like mad cow disease has, there's an incubation period, right? This is the, the concern, like I remember.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  That's the other thing is that we're all like me, everybody, cause I guarantee I've eaten CWD infected meat. The other concern is we all got it. We just don't know it yet cause it takes 10 years. But they've been tracking these dudes that went to a fire department fundraiser. They had a hundred some people that ate a bunch of CWD infected meat at a fire department fundraiser, and they keep following up on those people and following up on those people. And they haven't got it, but that's the other thing is, it was over a decade ago. So that's the other thing is that we all got it, like all these hunters, you know? I don't think this is true, but some people are like, all these hunters, they don't know it yet, but it could be that all of a sudden in 10 years, they all start dropping like flies or could develop dementia. I don't, it's such a, I really think

• 59:54Speaker 02

  that, um, I don't like to see any kind of wildlife disease, right?

• 1:00:01Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  I do believe, um,

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  If you look at prevalence rates and you look at the fact that it's always, that it's always fatal, whether or not removing the human question to it, I do think that you will find that it'll become harder to, it'll become harder to produce big deer. I worry about that and it'd be easy to track. Just go and look at like, go and look at Boone and Crockett entries over time from all these counties. So go like Buffalo County, Wisconsin, like a famous giant whitetail producing place, right? They get high rates of CWD prevalence. If you put a line on CWD prevalence and you put a line on Boone and Crockett entries

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  and you're able to track this over many years because we have all this data, do you, does it correlate? Does like CWD prevalence drive down big bucks?

• 1:00:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  It's like, it seems, I'm sure that some, I'm sure some mathematician out there has started to try to look at like if it's true, but a lot of people on the ground say that you do see population level impact from CWD. And I'm guessing there's no way it doesn't affect participation. Meaning that people that would like to hunt and the whole, the whole promise of wild meat is you're, you know, you're getting like really healthy meat. You're able to control the food chain, but then all of a sudden you throw in this question of like, well, but it could give you a prion disease hypothetically. That's going to, that's going to dampen people's enthusiasm about deer. And I'd, and I'd hate to see we get to a point where when, when I look at a deer, I look at a deer with like

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  great enthusiasm and love. What happens when we look at deer and we look at them like a disease vector? Right. Does it become like, like, do you view it like a rat or you see a rat and you like recoil? Like, I don't want that shit in my yard.

• 1:01:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  They carry disease, don't they?

• 1:01:56Joe Rogan?

  What if your dog could get it?

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, like picture down the road that, that like deer, which are this like universally loved, praised animal, this kind of like symbol of the American outdoorsman becomes like a, yeah, that shit out of my yard. You know?

• 1:02:11Joe Rogan?

  What is, when, when Doug talks about, you know, they do a lot of testing in Wisconsin where Doug is.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  A lot of testing, yeah.

• 1:02:18Joe Rogan?

  What's the percentage that come up positive?

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Man, they have.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  I think that on Doug's place, I think that like last year, I don't know if they got all the results from this year, but I think last year they had close to 50% of bucks.

• 1:02:31Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Now. It's hovering, it's like very high.

• 1:02:38Joe Rogan?

  And this is fairly recent, like a decade ago, they started appearing, right?

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that, I think that CWD goes back maybe about a decade in his area. He's in Richland County, Richland, or Richland, is he Richland County? Yeah, Richland County, Wisconsin, somewhere in that ballpark. And it's changed, like, when you were at Doug's place, remember at Doug's place, they used to have this, they used to have this slogan, like, nice buck next year, meaning, you know, let deer grow, let deer grow. And Doug has really changed, over the years, he's changed his tune and they really want to try to, the idea generally with wildlife managers is that by lowering, you'll slow spread by lowering numbers. Right, that if you have, you know, 40 deer per square mile, you're going to have increased spread.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  And if it was 20 deer per square mile, 30 deer per square mile, you might slow the spread. But no one's demonstrated a lot of success in slowing the spread of CWD. So other hunters will look at it and be like, yeah, you're out there lowering deer numbers. And so there's half as many deer on the landscape.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  And CWD still spreads, right? So, so you wind up with this question of like, how do you justify trying to suppress deer numbers when you're not demonstrating a lot of success in slowing prevalence? And the whole thing you're afraid of is lowering deer numbers, but you're lowering deer numbers. Right, but it's like a controlled, it's a controlled lowering to slow the spread. But there hasn't been, no one has an area, to your point, you can't go to a county.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  I don't think, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong by maybe one county, but I'm pretty positive I'm not wrong. And this is generally absolutely true. You can't go to a county that had infected deer, that no longer has infected deer. No one's gone into a population of deer and eradicated CWD.

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  No one's gotten, no one's gotten rid of it.

• 1:04:33Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. Has it jumped to moose?

• 1:04:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that I, um, cervid, so, so primarily whitetail deer, mule deer, elk. They found it, they've had it transmit to caribou. Um, gosh, I should know that. It's gotta be because it's a cervid, so there's no, there's no way it doesn't.

• 1:04:53Joe Rogan?

  Like, you know.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  That from, not from that.

• 1:04:55Joe Rogan?

  Right, but I'm saying like, the thing about moose is there's lower numbers and they don't, they don't exist in like packs.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But since it is a cervid disease, I should know this, since it is, I'm assuming they've, they've found it in there. I can't think of examples. I can think of, uh, mule deer, whitetail deer, elk, caribou. But I can't think of whether or not there's been a positive case of, of moose. And moose have a whole host of problems. Right now in some areas, particularly in the lower 48, the northern, the northern states of the lower 48, between wolf depredation and, uh, and then, uh, a tick.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Like a, a tick is really hammering those moose right now.

• 1:05:32Joe Rogan?

  Someone told me they went hunting and they got a moose and it was just covered in ticks.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. There's a problem with, in this long series of mild winters,

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  that that's, that these extreme colds that would lower these tick numbers down, it hasn't been happening. So you're, you're, you're having animals literally dying, like a lot of moose literally dying from tick infestations.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then Colorado's becoming like a great, oh, here's all the.

• 1:06:00Joe Rogan?

  Found in moose in many state provinces, including Alberta, Saskatchewan, Colorado, and Texas. That's moose? What? Texas has moose?

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  No, no, no, he's, um, that's not.

• 1:06:13Joe Rogan?

  Areas in the panhandle in west Texas, CWD.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  That, that's.

• 1:06:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's CWD, but.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  That's cockeyed right there.

• 1:06:20Joe Rogan?

  Do they have moose in Texas?

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  No, no, I think it's mixing up two things.

• 1:06:24Joe Rogan?

  But it says it there.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  I know, but CWD has been found in Texas.

• 1:06:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, so they're not saying moose in Texas.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:32Joe Rogan?

  Just Google, are there moose in Texas?

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  There are not.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  I mean, everything's in Texas in some form of capacity, but no, you're way outside.

• 1:06:40Joe Rogan?

  No moose in Texas.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  You're way outside of moose, the native range of moose.

• 1:06:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  Colorado is becoming like an unexpected, is blowing up for moose.

• 1:06:48Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Colorado becomes better. I mean, they've always said moose, but like Colorado's becoming like a premier moose state.

• 1:06:54Joe Rogan?

  When did that happen?

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Just they've just been kicking ass there, you know, up in the high country. Yeah, more and more moose. It's becoming like a great moose state. And meanwhile, like Maine is, is really suffering as a moose state.

• 1:07:05Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you know, like Maine's whole brand promise, you know, it was like around moose and then Colorado's gonna steal it.

• 1:07:12Joe Rogan?

  No, well, it's difficult to get a tag in Maine, right?

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  That's very hard.

• 1:07:15Joe Rogan?

  Very hard, right?

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But it's for a non-resident especially. I used to ply over there, but I don't ply anymore.

• 1:07:20Joe Rogan?

  Now, what's, what's causing the moose decline in Maine?

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Chicks.

• 1:07:24Joe Rogan?

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• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, ticks.

• 1:09:32Joe Rogan?

  Dirty little fucking things.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:09:34Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever heard the conspiracy theory about Lyme disease?

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:37Joe Rogan?

  That's a weird one, right?

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. It is.

• 1:09:41Joe Rogan?

  Seems like there's some legitimate concern there, that it might have been a bioweapon that got out of hand.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Well, I think after the pandemic we just went through, I think people are more open to that idea.

• 1:09:50Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was widely dismissed by, you know, people that are a little bit more skeptical about conspiracies. But, uh, R.F.J. Junior, he's, he believes it.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:00Joe Rogan?

  You know? It's, um, it's very scary, this idea of these fucking eggheads experimenting with diseases and making them more infectious, for whatever reason, without also developing a cure.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:10:15Joe Rogan?

  Very strange.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  I guess the one justification you'd have is you'd be like, well, by tinkering with it, we'll better understand it, and if it ever happens naturally, we'd be able to combat it.

• 1:10:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, how'd that work out?

• 1:10:29Joe Rogan?

  That didn't really work out, did it?

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  That's prob- that has to be the story you tell to yourself.

• 1:10:32Joe Rogan?

  I think they just make money doing research. I think if you're a researcher, you know, like if you're a carpenter, you want to build houses. They say, there's too many houses. Like, ah, come on, I don't fucking need houses. You know, I'm a carpenter. I make houses. If you're a researcher and your field of study is diseases, viruses, you wanted to study them. And if the money is involved in some sort of bizarre engineering of these things, which is what they're doing, this fucking strange gain of function shit that they're doing. You do it. And if you can't do it in America, like China, okay, we'll do it over there.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  There was a famous buffalo hide hunter and he had talked about during the great slaughter of the buffalo, he had talked about now and then he'd commit himself to, to stop. But he'd say he'd wake up in the morning and off in the distance.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  And he's like, someone else is doing it. So, uh, I think that probably with the, you know, I'm no pathologist, but as long as someone's tinkering with that shit, everybody wants to tinker with that shit.

• 1:11:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  Because you're like, well, I don't know, what are they, what are they doing over there that, that I, uh, what am I missing out on?

• 1:11:43Joe Rogan?

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  If they're doing it, I want to do it.

• 1:11:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  I don't want to be the one that looks like a fool.

• 1:11:49Joe Rogan?

  And there's research money.

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:51Joe Rogan?

  That's how you get grants.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know what? I bet you in some ways the pandemic spawned more of that type of research.

• 1:11:56Joe Rogan?

  You think so?

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause I mean, like also now you can make the case of how important it is to understand this stuff.

• 1:12:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you would also make the case like, hey, how about you fuckheads come up with a cure first?

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, start with that.

• 1:12:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Start with figuring out how to cure it.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can see that.

• 1:12:15Joe Rogan?

  It's just like, there's just not a lot of trust in the medical research institutions now.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  No, there's been, there's been an erosion of that for sure.

• 1:12:27Joe Rogan?

  For a good reason.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Joe Rogan?

  I mean, there was a real wake up call for people. I think they're like, oh, there's not someone with real objective oversight of all this, like doing a really good job of maintaining everything. It's not, it's not a really well maintained situation.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I used to be a dude that, um, Uh, prior to that, I was a dude that accepted a lot of, uh, I don't know, I accepted a lot of assurances and then there was a definite, like many people on, I mean, I'm speaking for most people in the country, man. Uh, I feel like, like many people, I gained a new skepticism.

• 1:13:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  During the pandemic.

• 1:13:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I joked about it in my special.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  About government authority, a new skepticism about some types of government authority and a new skepticism about the way health information.

• 1:13:14Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  Is spread.

• 1:13:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's just one of those things where anything involving money, whenever there's an enormous amount of money involved and then there's a centralized control of information, like where there's people that have a distribution of information. And then there's also the problem of exonerating people from any responsibility, which is what happened in the 1990s, or was it the eighties? Whenever they, uh, gave them, because the vaccine manufacturers were saying, listen, we can't manufacture vaccines because too many people are getting injured by them and we're going to have so much liability that we're not going to be able to make, manufacture vaccines anymore unless you give us immunity to prosecute it.

• 1:13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Joe Rogan?

  And so they gave it to them. And then all of a sudden you're getting 72 vaccines instead. You're getting, you're giving children hepatitis V, hepatitis B for babies, which is just fucking crazy. A sexually transmitted disease for babies. Like, what are you doing? Like, why are you doing that? Were you doing it because you can't? And because the more vaccines you give kids, the more money you make. And you're not responsible. You don't have to pay off anything. You, you don't get sued, which is just, you can't do that with these fucking corporations. They're just too evil. They, they're sociopaths. They act like sociopaths. They lie about studies. They lie about side effects. They minimize their responsibility and they profit immensely and they continue to do so as long as they're not punished.

• 1:14:41Joe Rogan?

  And that's, that's the, the business that they're in.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I get the frustration, but I mean, at the same time, like I've been the recipient of, um, I've been the recipient of like remedies offered by western medicine.

• 1:14:57Joe Rogan?

  Remedies offered by western medicine for diseases caused by science. Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  Possibly.

• 1:15:01Joe Rogan?

  You are. Yeah, you are a live disease.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, some things like if you, well, no, take a, take a natural thing like Giardia. The, these are, you know, I don't think anyone's arguing about that, but I mean, like you get sick as shit.

• 1:15:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, listen.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Then all of a sudden you take a pill and you're quick.

• 1:15:16Joe Rogan?

  No one's arguing that medicine isn't amazing. I mean, medicine's amazing, but the problem with medicine is you got your scientists and your medical researchers and then you got your money people. Right. And the money people, they don't even know how to make any of this medicine. They just know to sell it.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Joe Rogan?

  And how do I sell it? I sell it by, you know, like, that's like remdesivir, where they were selling remdesivir during the, the, the COVID crisis. Remdesivir is fucking horrible.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  What is that? I don't know that one.

• 1:15:43Joe Rogan?

  Kidney failure. They stopped prescribing it.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I remember that one.

• 1:15:46Joe Rogan?

  Fauci was selling it to everybody. You need to take remdesivir and everybody was dying.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  That's your impersonation?

• 1:15:53Joe Rogan?

  Fucking horrible kidney failure. Yeah, that fucking creep. Read that book, The Real Anthony Fauci by RFK Junior. It's a crazy book.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have, you know, I have, Seth, my buddy Seth was reading that book when we were out moose hunting, but I haven't read it.

• 1:16:10Joe Rogan?

  That book will change your opinion on a lot of shit.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:12Joe Rogan?

  That's a crazy book. And if it's not true, he would be sued.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  That's a good point. You get a cease and desist.

• 1:16:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's all documented. He's got, I mean, it's all backed up by like rock solid information. It's all like very well documented. What actually happened during the AIDS crisis, what actually happened during the COVID crisis. It's all, it's all legitimate. It's all easy to research. It's just scary that these people that you, you don't want to have to think about that stuff all the time. You want to just live your life and trust these, oh, this is the medical institution. They, they're here to help us. They're here to make us feel better.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But no, a lot of them are just there to make money.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  But I held that sentiment.

• 1:16:51Joe Rogan?

  Me too.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:16:52Joe Rogan?

  Me too, till four years ago.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Lot, lot changed dude.

• 1:16:56Joe Rogan?

  I'm fucking super skeptical now.

• 1:16:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, lot changed.

• 1:16:59Joe Rogan?

  Super skeptical of the herd mindset that people fall into. Whenever there's some sort of a pandemic, when there's a high level of anxiety, a lot of people fall into this herd mindset.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Joe Rogan?

  And that scares the shit out of me too. Because there's just a lot of people that are cowards and they're afraid to, they're afraid of public humiliation, public, you know, public criticism, they're afraid of getting ostracized from the community if they don't follow suit like everybody else is doing. And so then they start to try to enforce it on everybody else. It's like the people that were yelling at everybody else, where's your mask?

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Joe Rogan?

  Put your mask on, like, you know, there's people, I went to a restaurant the other night, the fucking guy served me had a mask on. Like, I would fire this guy. I would not, like, you can't, this is nonsense. You can't be wearing a fucking mask, this is crazy.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  I read an op ed in the Free Press the other day, you know, Barry Weiss's publication.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  And it was about when they had rolled back, uh, they had rolled back on masking laws, I kind of forgot all about this, like, you used to not be able to run around with a mask on?

• 1:18:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Because of like criminal activity?

• 1:18:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  So one of these, one of these dudes that pushed a, pushed a person in front of a subway,

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  it must have been premeditated to some degree because hood and mask, right?

• 1:18:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  So you can't identify him on security footage.

• 1:18:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  And then the dude that shot that healthcare, uh, insurance CEO, like masked, but he don't think anything of it.

• 1:18:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  So this, this person was arguing in some capacity, they were, they were arguing that, um, we need to move back to anti-masking

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  rules.

• 1:18:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  To fight crime, which I, you know, I get the sentiment, but I also thought like, if you had at a time prior to the pandemic, if you had told me that there was restrictions on wearing a mask, you know, I would have thought, I would have been surprised about that. Because it seems like, how can you dictate to someone that you have a, like a little stagecoach robber?

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Bandana on your face.

• 1:19:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? It's like a weird, it's like a weird thing is like, can you really, um, can you really tell people that they, they can't wear a mask? But this person's saying, you could, we did. And now that you'd, now that, now you've granted like criminals some level of anonymity. By that you can just kind of like, you're cool just to walk around totally obscured.

• 1:19:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also you're, you're dealing with people that have severe anxiety if they think that that mask is actually going to protect them. It doesn't do jack shit.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:19:28Joe Rogan?

  Especially if you're wearing the bandana. The bandana is just ridiculous.

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  Sure, but I'm not, oh yeah, but yeah. But I'm not looking to have a rational argument with them. I'm just, it was just like surprised, like something I hadn't considered that you could, uh, have a, that you could add a, you know, make a law telling people about wearing masks or not.

• 1:19:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  I just forgot all about that shit because you just didn't, but it would be if you went back six years ago and you saw a dude with a mask and a hood on.

• 1:19:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  You might be like, the hell is his problem?

• 1:19:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  Now you're like, oh, he's real scared of COVID.

• 1:19:56Joe Rogan?

  Real scared still to this day. I mean, someone sent me a video, this guy wears a mask every day and he's been pushing for masking. He's like, like severely mentally ill.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that, that is.

• 1:20:07Joe Rogan?

  Overrun with anxiety, just like, like advocating for masking, we shall be masking and double masking and.

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  If you had a mask on and a hood on all the time, you wouldn't be just 10% less famous, you'd be 70% less famous.

• 1:20:19Joe Rogan?

  I got, I got spotted a lot when I had a mask on.

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  With your mask on?

• 1:20:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, with a mask on, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  I kind of, yeah.

• 1:20:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm short and wide, you know, I have an odd shape.

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31Joe Rogan?

  You know, I think people, you know, look, is that Joe Rogan?

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  Burly little man.

• 1:20:35Joe Rogan?

  Fucking chimpanzee looking dude.

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  Bald head?

• 1:20:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  All muscly?

• 1:20:41Joe Rogan?

  I wear a baseball hat, sunglasses, mask, and they're like, is that Joe Rogan? Even, even without like seeing my tattoos, like I just was getting busted.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  You know what it might be, cause you are known, um, sitting in that seat and that posture. And so maybe when you're in the airport, you should try a different, you should try a different pose.

• 1:21:02Joe Rogan?

  What pose?

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, lean back, they might just be, they might be just picking you off by your seating position.

• 1:21:08Joe Rogan?

  I was just walking down the street. I was getting called out.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, with sunglasses on and a baseball hat.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'd be ten percent less famous.

• 1:21:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's too late. That that fucking chicken flew on the coop.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:21:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's over.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  No one doing it now.

• 1:21:24Joe Rogan?

  I think you should stop masking. I think it should be illegal. I think it's ridiculous. In New York, they made it so that if you go into a store, you have to pull your mask down.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:21:33Joe Rogan?

  Facial recognition will work.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:21:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because they were getting so many people getting robbed. So many stores are getting robbed and you could never catch the guys.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  There is, yeah, there is a movement back to that.

• 1:21:44Joe Rogan?

  I think it was the mayor was like proposing that. But they should just make it illegal to wear a fucking mask. You're a psychopath. Like, it doesn't work. It doesn't work and it's not protecting you. So what are we doing? You're just covering your face. Well, you can't cover your face. Because we live in polite society and want to make sure that people can't commit crimes wearing a fucking bank robber mask. This is nuts.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  It a little bit, you being, um, like, you being a very libertarian dude. I don't know if you describe yourself that way.

• 1:22:11Joe Rogan?

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  I'd be like, I'm a little surprised. I remember you were having a conversation with J D Vance and J D Vance made a comment about, uh, just not a serious comment, but made a comment like, um, you know, dude shouldn't wear skirts or some shit like that. And you're like, they should totally be able to wear skirts.

• 1:22:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  Women get to wear them. Why can't men, you know, it was, it was, it was all said with levity.

• 1:22:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  But I was a little surprised. Like, I could picture you as well, um, I could picture you as well really feeling like, how could you legislate?

• 1:22:41Joe Rogan?

  It's a public safety thing.

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  Obscuring your face.

• 1:22:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Well, in a skirt, there's no public, there's no public safety in skirts.

• 1:22:47Joe Rogan?

  The guy's got weird knees.

• 1:22:51Joe Rogan?

  That's, I recognize those knees anywhere. No, I mean, skirts is just a choice. I mean, if you wear shorts, why can't you wear skirts?

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I get it. It's public, yeah.

• 1:23:00Joe Rogan?

  If a guy wants to wear a dress, what do I give a shit? If a woman wants to wear a business suit, am I mad at Ellen for wearing a business suit, you know? Am I gonna be pissed off at Hannah Gatsby for dressing up like a man? Like, come on, you should be able to wear whatever you want to wear. I don't care about that. But I care about public safety. Like, you, you shouldn't be able to cover your face where you can't be identified if you commit a crime. We've all agreed to that. Like, that's just ridiculous. It used to be a thing that you couldn't do. You couldn't walk into a store with a bank robber mask on. It used to be if you walked into a bank with a mask on, people would freak out. And now, if you, during the pandemic.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  They'd probably start shooting at you.

• 1:23:36Joe Rogan?

  You walk into a bank without a mask, people get angry. Put your mask on. It's like, we lost our mind. But the thing is, they should have realized it very early on, that there's no science to it. And there was a doctor who pointed this out very early on in the pandemic, and we highlighted it, and people were very upset at us. This doctor was talking, he was a virologist, and he was saying, "Do you know how ridiculous this is? Let me show you."

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00Joe Rogan?

  And he used a vape. So he took a big hit of a vape, he put a mask on, and he blew vape smoke through, and he's like, "The particles in vape are so much larger than these virus particles." If you're breathing through this mask, if this mask allows you to take in air, you're taking the virus. If it allows you to blow out air, you're blowing out the virus. Shut the fuck up.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:23Joe Rogan?

  This is just stupid. This is just pretending. And in the beginning, I was like, okay, everybody just wants you to be a good person, you wear the mask, but it's, it's so weird, because during the crisis, we all, uh, we did UFC fights. In the UFC fights, the corner men used to have to wear masks. So like, I'll see like, highlights from like, 2021, and you see like, the corner man with the mask, like, God, I forgot about this. So ridiculous. And their noses hanging out, it's like, the whole thing, "Cover your nose." "Oh, yeah, okay." Like, as if it mattered, like, "Oh, this really works." And you couldn't walk into a store like this. People go, "That's not good enough. This is not good enough." "Oh, I forgot my mask. What do you want me to do? This is the same goddamn thing. Like, what are we doing?

• 1:25:06Joe Rogan?

  Can I just buy toothpaste like this? No, you can't. You have to have an actual mask." "Well, what is the difference between this and a fucking bandana? Zero. There's no difference." It's so stupid.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  I went through two years, like, needing to yell at my kids all the time, because if you travel with your kids, and they never got the stupid things on, you know, you're like, but then you're not even, you're not even yelling at them about that they're gonna prevent them from. You're not saving them from a disease, you're saving them from being ostracized or yelled at by the flight attendant.

• 1:25:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  You spend two years being like, put your damn mask on, put your mask on. I don't think it works. No one, it's not about whether it works. You just gotta do it to not get in trouble.

• 1:25:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I had a conversation with my kids. I'm like, this does not work. Just want you to know, it's not gonna make you safer, it's not gonna. They both had COVID early on. They got over it quick, so they weren't nervous about COVID at all. I go, this is just for other crazy people that are riddled with anxiety.

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Joe Rogan?

  You put this on, they feel okay. It's not gonna be forever. It's gonna be, and we're gonna look back on this, we're all gonna laugh. And that's, like, every now and then, I'll go through, like, my closet, and I'll put a jacket on that I haven't worn forever, and I reach into a pocket, and I pull out a fucking stupid surgical mask. I'm like, Jesus Christ. I can't believe we went through this.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've kind of found them all and got rid of them.

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  But I wouldn't be surprised if there's one hiding somewhere.

• 1:26:22Joe Rogan?

  It was one of the things that Sanjay Gupta brought on, brought up when I did that podcast with him. Like, you sell masks on your website? I go, what, you think I sell them because they're real? I sell them because people have to wear them. So if you want to wear them, wear a little JRE mask. Like, I don't sell them because I think they're good.

• 1:26:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:39Joe Rogan?

  Like, shut the fuck up. I wish, I wish they were illegal to sell. How about that? I don't want, what, I make a dollar off those fucking masks?

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  You'd forego the profits.

• 1:26:47Joe Rogan?

  I would pay to have them illegal. I'll, I'll give the government $10,000 a year to make masks illegal. Fuck you. You guys are fucking crazy. The whole thing was crazy. It was really weird. It was like a psychology experiment on the whole, it was just, it was a good experiment to see, like, how many people around you are bitches? Who would just fall in line the moment things got weird.

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:10Joe Rogan?

  And it's a lot. There's a lot of people just have no ability to tolerate any discomfort. Any weirdness, any uncertainty, any anxiety. They just immediately, like, there's so many people out there.

• 1:27:24Joe Rogan?

  That have always had parents and then bosses and then supervisors and they were always like following rules, always following rules and assuming somebody has your best interest in mind. And they don't.

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:37Joe Rogan?

  They don't. There's just humans, just a bunch of humans out there and a bunch of people that don't want to take responsibility for this fuck up that they've created. And they want to lie and distort things and gaslight the whole population and then somehow or another, these people that are doing that are allowed to spend hundreds of millions and billions of dollars on advertising and on television. And so now the television networks will never criticize them because they get all this fuck. You know, this is like the argument about advertising for pharmaceutical drugs. You know, we're the only country other than New Zealand in the whole world that allows pharmaceutical drugs to advertise.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Oh, is that right?

• 1:28:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's just us and New Zealand. And New Zealand's far more restricted than us. But our, the way our system is set up, all these television networks, CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, they all rely on a giant percentage of their advertising budget comes from pharmaceutical drugs.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  And don't you just love those ads?

• 1:28:37Joe Rogan?

  But it's not, but here's the thing, it's not to sell more drugs. It's so that those people will never criticize those drugs.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm familiar with the argument, yeah.

• 1:28:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the ads are great.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like some, it'll always be some dude just kicking ass.

• 1:28:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, having a great time.

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  Wakes up, jogs with his buddies, kicks ass all day. At night, he's like, at night, he's like out with his lady, you know, and he's like getting ready and it kind of ends at the end of the night. You're like, that's something, it's getting lucky, you know?

• 1:29:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  And it's like, ask your doctor if such and such. And you're like, shit, I want to kick ass like that old guy.

• 1:29:08Joe Rogan?

  And then they read off the side effects, the side effects at the end, suicidal thoughts, powerful diarrhea, like, oh, God.

• 1:29:17Joe Rogan?

  Anal bleeding, oh Christ. It's a, we live in a weird world, man. It's a weird world. It's a world, you know, whenever you involve money in things, money, profit and the ability to lie. You know, you get a lot of, a lot of real shady things.

• 1:29:33Speaker 02

  It, what frustrates me already is it's gonna be impossible to, um, explain it. Like now I can't, it's very hard to explain the nine 11 terror attacks to my kids. You know, and I wanna be, when they make, in 10 years, 20 years, whatever, when they make a docu-series on this, on the COVID-19 pandemic and the social response and the government response. Like, I really wanna be in the room on the edit. I'll be like, don't forget about, you know what I mean? Like, like the telling of how it happened.

• 1:30:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  Like, I, I, if I, I would like to go into a time machine and go forward and, and see how it is told later.

• 1:30:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  You know, like, we'll watch now, you know, we'll watch documentary now, you know, you watch something about the Cuban Missile Crisis, right? But you just picture dudes that were active during the Cuban Missile Crisis are like, no. Right?

• 1:30:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  They're gonna be, there's even a term, there's a term, it's called, uh,

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  gel, uh, some gel syndrome. Maybe Jamie can look it up for us.

• 1:30:42Joe Rogan?

  What's the term about?

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  It's that, it's the alpha, no, not the alpha gel syndrome.

• 1:30:48Joe Rogan?

  Alpha gal is the.

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  No, it's not alpha gal, it's something gel. The syndrome is this, or no, amnesia. Something gel, gel man, gel, type in gel amnesia, if you don't mind, it's killing me. Gel man amnesia. It's that, let's say you're, let's say you're seeing something, you have a lot of subject matter expertise in. Okay, so let's say you're reading, you, Joe, are reading, uh, and someone's analysis explaining like, here's what's up with, with, um, mixed martial arts. Okay, an outsider, an outside journalist who's assigned to do a piece, and they do a piece like, what's up with mixed martial arts?

• 1:31:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  And you read it, and what's probably the main thing you're gonna be thinking the whole time?

• 1:31:28Joe Rogan?

  Does this guy know what he's talking about?

• 1:31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you're gonna be like, that's totally not.

• 1:31:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  That's not the conversation.

• 1:31:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  That's not what that is.

• 1:31:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:36Speaker 02

  You missed the point. Like, do you notice that everything you read where you know a lot about it? Let's say, let's say you read a piece of reporting and it's a reporting about the podcast industry.

• 1:31:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  Where it came from, how it's monetized.

• 1:31:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  Mostly what you're gonna feel is, that's not what that is.

• 1:31:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  That's incorrect.

• 1:31:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  Well, this form of amnesia is that you forget that. So then later, you're reading an article about a thing you don't know well.

• 1:32:00Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, right.

• 1:32:02Speaker 02

  And you're like, you feel like you're getting the straight dope.

• 1:32:04Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  But someone, somewhere, who knows the world well, is reading it and they're having the same feeling you have every time you read about something you know well, which is, this person has no idea what they're talking about.

• 1:32:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  So, you fall on the trap, the amnesia is you forget. And you take things you're not aware of, and when you get the dope on them from someone, you're forgetting how fucked up everything is, when you do know about it.

• 1:32:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, the hope is that with AI in these large language models, is that AI will be able to distribute information objectively without that. And that is the case in a lot of situations where they haven't been, they haven't been corrected yet. Like, AI is subject to human influence, obviously. Like, I'm sure if you're aware of the Google Gemini situation. The Google Gemini situation is the best one, because they said, you know, "Create images of Nazis." And they had multicultural Nazis.

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:03Joe Rogan?

  But, if it has to analyze information about specific things, just based on just what's actually available, oftentimes, it will give you a very accurate assessment that you wouldn't get from a newspaper. Because the newspaper would be more, they would be more interested in adhering to whatever particular ideology they subscribe to.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:27Joe Rogan?

  So they would flavor things through an ideology, and probably gaslight you a little bit about the other side's perspective.

• 1:33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:34Joe Rogan?

  The, the, the hope is that in the future, with large language models, and especially as they become more and more sophisticated, you're gonna be able to get an accurate, objective assessment of things that doesn't have any human influence.

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I don't, dude, come on.

• 1:33:50Joe Rogan?

  Is it impossible?

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:33:52Joe Rogan?

  It's possible with some things.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  The hope, or it's possible, but no, I don't have like, sure, possible. I don't picture that being the case.

• 1:33:59Joe Rogan?

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• 1:35:25Joe Rogan?

  And if your identity is stolen, LifeLock will step in to fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Dedicated, US-based, identity restoration specialists will work with you until your identity is restored, backed by the million-dollar protection package with up to $3 million in coverage for eligible losses and expenses. Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE. Or go to lifelock.com/jre for 30% off. Terms apply. Well. There are some large language models that aren't fucked with, especially open source ones.

• 1:36:09Joe Rogan?

  The problem is they're essentially drawing from the entire internet, right? So you would have to assess like where these large language models are getting their information from.

• 1:36:21Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:36:21Joe Rogan?

  And making sure that they're... So this is the thing, you could kind of game that system by rigging these large language models to accentuate information that comes from more biased sources. You know, you could distort the information that people get.

• 1:36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, and someone would be motivated to do it.

• 1:36:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, until they get so sophisticated that they would be able to discern that. And they would be able to base it entirely on objective analysis of statistics and facts. And understand what these statistics are.

• 1:36:55Speaker 02

  I did this little event last night at this place here in town called Arena Hall. And the moderator of the event, it was like a Q and A or, you know, chat. And he was asking me, like, as a writer, as an author, what are your fears about AI?

• 1:37:13Speaker 02

  And I'm like, AI is, like, in the very short term, like, AI is coming for, like, certain types of writing. Like, certain types of writing are gonna be made obsolete by AI.

• 1:37:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  But the reason I don't worry about it as of now as a writer is like, it's always gonna be representative of... It's always gonna be representative of input, right? Like, the input has to come in from people who are out digesting real experience.

• 1:37:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  Right? It'll get faster, you know? The point I use is if you, earlier Tom, alluded to, like, the assassination on... Attempt on Trump. The day before that, had you asked AI about details about it, it doesn't exist, right? Like, the whole thing gets fed in. So if you remain on some level of cutting edge about thought, or cutting edge about analysis, or cutting edge about what's going on in the world, you'll have to start being more careful about being, like, that your work remains at the vanguard of feeding into the system of newness, right?

• 1:38:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  And that's gonna be, like, a big challenge. Like, a big challenge as a writer. But I remember coming up as a writer too in the old days and being super scared of the internet in general, right? And I was like, man, this ain't gonna be good.

• 1:38:32Speaker 02

  For a writer.

• 1:38:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, they thought about that with the printing press.

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  I'm sure.

• 1:38:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Do you know what the, the early books, do you know what most of the early books were about?

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  It was monks transcribing them, but I don't.

• 1:38:43Joe Rogan?

  No, when the printing press was produced.

• 1:38:46Speaker 02

  Mathematics, maybe?

• 1:38:47Joe Rogan?

  Nope. How to spot witches.

• 1:38:48Speaker 02

  Oh, really? That was a hot topic?

• 1:38:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was all about witches and witchcraft. Yeah. How to spot sorcery.

• 1:38:53Speaker 02

  No, I didn't know that.

• 1:38:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was a lot of bullshit. You would think like, oh, it's just knowledge and information. Finally, the world's gonna know the truth. No, no, no, no.

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  I had no idea.

• 1:39:04Joe Rogan?

  It's a lot of like, how to spot witches. They were the most popular books.

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I, I think that like, um, creators, yeah, uh, uh, from a, like a creative perspective, you got ones that, that run away from new, right? And you got ones that run toward it.

• 1:39:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:21Speaker 02

  I used to be the runaway from. I used to, something came out and I was like, this ain't good.

• 1:39:27Joe Rogan?

  What are you now?

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  I, I, I guess I've like survived through enough changes in the media landscape that I, I'm not as terrified as I once was, right?

• 1:39:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:40Speaker 02

  Like, you know, I always said, like, the first time I heard the word podcast was in the context of your name, right? And, um, and.

• 1:39:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I remember the first podcast we did. You're like, what is this?

• 1:39:49Speaker 02

  I know, I didn't know what the hell it was.

• 1:39:50Joe Rogan?

  We were at the Ice House. It was, the whole setup was ridiculous.

• 1:39:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, you had a delayed flight.

• 1:39:56Joe Rogan?

  I had a delayed flight?

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, we started real late. You were coming back from something.

• 1:39:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:59Speaker 02

  Um, but anyhow, uh, yeah, I used to be like, I used to be, I used to be.

• 1:40:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:05Speaker 02

  Scared of incoming.

• 1:40:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, most people were, especially podcasts, it seemed so ridiculous. Most people thought it was stupid.

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you even said that you, you were doing them and thought it was stupid.

• 1:40:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, I did it because I thought it was fun.

• 1:40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:40:20Joe Rogan?

  And then, you know, after a while, I was like, oh, this is actually like a business.

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:40:25Joe Rogan?

  You know, I remember having a conversation with you about it. I was like, you should do a podcast.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, there's a lot of money in this. Like, it's real now.

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I wouldn't have done it had you said it.

• 1:40:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, it seemed.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Or I'd been late to the game, maybe.

• 1:40:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, you got on early. Well, you were such a good guest. I was like, this is like something you have to do. Like, this is like, you have so many opinions on things and you're so well read. It's like a perfect place for you, where there's no interruption. You could just have conversations about things. That's like right up your alley.

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  I'm glad I did. And then their thing is it, it just infuses you with, uh. Infuses you with so much knowledge.

• 1:40:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:57Speaker 02

  Cause like you said, you get to, you get to corner people you want to corner.

• 1:41:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, that's the best part. Yeah. The best part is the unintended education.

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:05Joe Rogan?

  You just have conversations with so many people. And when else would you get an expert to sit down with you for three hours and put their phone aside?

• 1:41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:13Joe Rogan?

  And just look me in the eye. Tell me how this started. Tell me, how do you figure that out? What is that? How'd you get involved in this? What's, what's the beginning of this? And then, you know, it's beneficial to everybody who listens to. It's a weird new thing.

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  You know, you know, I want to tell you about, cause it's like this thing I'm trying to hunt down is, uh, I recently had a guy on my podcast whose name is Randy Brown.

• 1:41:37Speaker 02

  And, uh, my brother Danny recommended it to, cause he works, uh, he's a fisheries biologist in Alaska.

• 1:41:44Speaker 02

  So he came on the show and what, what he did is in the seventies, he, he grew up in New Mexico and always wanted to live in the woods. Okay. Like just grew up camping in the mountains and stuff. And in the seventies, he goes up to Alaska. And just goes live in the bush along the Yukon. And then did it. I mean, for 15 years, for 15 years, he lived in the bush in Alaska. Just building little cabins and lived off the land.

• 1:42:11Speaker 02

  I mean, like didn't, wasn't buying groceries, like lived off the land trapping in Alaska.

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  He tells me this story and I've been, I've been trying to put the word out about this. He, he tells me a story where I'll have to go check. I think it was in 78. In 1978, he's on the Yukon River, just downstream, downstream of the Yukon from, um, Canada. He's between Circle Alaska and Eagle, Alaska on the Yukon. And him and his friends are living their lives and all these like line cabins. They got strung up and down the river. Okay.

• 1:42:41Speaker 02

  Two guys come down the river out of Canada. So again, this is 1978. Two guys come down the river out of Canada on a homemade log raft.

• 1:42:53Speaker 02

  This guy in Randy's circle, one of his buddies, he tells this whole story on the podcast, but one of his buddies has a cabin down on the river and these two guys pull in in this homemade raft, they pull in for the night at this cabin. One of these individuals identifies himself as John the Baptist. Oh, boy. Okay. In the middle of the night, his companion, John the Baptist's companion, gets back on his raft and scoots. Oh, boy. And abandons the dude, abandons this guy in 1978, who came out of Canada, who identifies himself as John the Baptist. John the Baptist becomes this incredible leech on these guys that are living in the bush,

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  eating their food, using their stuff, taking their ammunition. He lingers long enough that it becomes that he can't really get out of that area because it freezes up on the river. And they keep telling him, you gotta go somewhere else. And they say, you gotta leave here, you can go stay at one of our other cabins, don't touch our shit. He goes up to the other cabin, when they eventually go up to the other cabin, he had taken a bunch of their stuff, he'd taken some of their furs and made his own clothes. They boot him out and they tell him, what you gotta do is you gotta go down to the river and go up or down, wait for a boat and go up or down. But he comes up with this cockamamie plan where he's gonna go to this area, they're like, no way can you walk to that area. He takes off into the woods.

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  Now, when he does, he steals this guy we had on the podcast, Randy Brown, he steals Randy Brown's snowshoes and takes off. Randy Brown gives chase, but it was a real bad snow year, he tracked him for about five miles and just said, nevermind, it's not worth it. The next year, he takes a different route and goes into the headwaters of this river, where this guy had taken off with his snowshoes, and he's canoeing down the river and sees his snowshoes hanging in a tree. Okay? And there's a little cabin there, a little lion cabin they had out, and he goes in and hears the guy, stone dead, starved to death, in a sleeping bag. Whoa. Snowshoes are hanging outside. Starved to death. Starved to death, he says, he's nothing but skin and bones. Wow. Nothing but skin and bones.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  They take him out and they're way out in the bush. They have no money. They just live off land like they they literally, he literally has no money. He's got no way to transport a body in the summertime to like Eagle or Circle Alaska.

• 1:45:19Joe Rogan?

  Does he have a responsibility to do that?

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  Isn't this in the seventies, man? He did like he explains himself. He explains himself and did well. He didn't. He laid that they took the body out of the sleeping bag. They wanted to check it out. He said it was just skin on bone. And it brought up something because I'm going to talk about cannibalism in a minute, but it was skin on bone.

• 1:45:43Speaker 02

  And he doesn't know what to do and he's not bashful about what he did. He lays out like why he had to do what he did and they kept the sleeping bag to use it because it was their sleeping bag.

• 1:45:55Speaker 02

  And they laid this body out on the tundra.

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  Told a few people, but didn't really know what to tell them. They didn't never call out the guy's name. Told a few people. A while later, he goes back and the body was gone, presumably been eaten by something. So after we do this interview, I can't stop thinking about this dude. And I'm like, how can it not be that someone out in the world? Like someone that has a kid or a brother or uncle? Do you know what I mean?

• 1:46:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:23Speaker 02

  And they never know what happened to him?

• 1:46:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Speaker 02

  There's no, you know?

• 1:46:29Joe Rogan?

  But he's from Canada.

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:30Joe Rogan?

  It's the nineteen seventies.

• 1:46:31Speaker 02

  Seventies calling himself John the Baptist. I caught. Yeah, they do. And I but I kind of felt like doing like I kind of felt and I put it out on social media. We talk on the podcast. I'm bringing it up here. Like, um, dude, like I would love to know that someone said like, oh, I used to party with a dude named John the Baptist.

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  In Canada, right.

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Who is this guy?

• 1:46:50Joe Rogan?

  Maybe this will do it.

• 1:46:52Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:46:52Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you talking about it like someone will reach out.

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:55Joe Rogan?

  But then you got to wonder if someone's just fabricating it because they want information.

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  No, for sure.

• 1:46:58Joe Rogan?

  Or they want attention rather.

• 1:47:00Speaker 02

  For sure. It kind of sticks in my head. And I and I said to him, to Randy, um, you know, it was crazy. He he went up getting an honorary doctorate. And like once he and his wife had kids, he became like a world's expert on whitefish species of the Yukon River and got like an honorary doctorate.

• 1:47:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's like a leading authority on certain whitefish species in the Yukon. This dude lived in the bush like that all that time.

• 1:47:22Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:47:22Speaker 02

  But I told him, I he says, man, I thought about it a lot. You know, I thought he goes, maybe you'll maybe you'll figure it out. I thought about it all the time. For a while. What happened? I asked my brother Danny, I'm like, when I have this guy on the podcast, what should I ask him about? And he goes, ask him about the guy he found.

• 1:47:39Speaker 02

  So he gives me this book. He gives me this book.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  And it's called Death in the Barren Grounds. Okay? And it was this, he's got a, he, Randy used the term starved out. And you could tell that all the time he spent living in the bush, like starving to death is very much on his mind. Like him and his body is even made of, sort of packed. Right? To like, hey, man, like if it comes down to it, don't hesitate to eat my body. You know, which you should. He gives me this book, Death in the Barren Grounds, it's about these guys in the twenties, these three dudes in the twenties that go up on this Thelon River, which flows into the Hudson Bay. And they go up in the, they're kind of north of the tree line. But they're in a timbered grove. And they go up there to trap for the winter and their whole plan is to live off caribou, but the caribou never come through.

• 1:48:29Speaker 02

  And the youngest one keeps this meticulous journal.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  In this book, he keeps this meticulous journal and he documents with painstaking detail, the two people he's with starving to death. And himself, eventually starving to death. He lets off at a point, it's unclear when he died, he had the wherewithal to put the journal in the stove. And to make a sign that said, look in the stove. And when they found him a couple of years later, they were able to find this journal. But it got so bad that they're like crushing animal bone.

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  Which is, which is the thing, that's what I'm gonna talk about this, with this Donner Party deal I was working on is, these guys are crushing animal bone and boiling it.

• 1:49:14Speaker 02

  To get some kind of nutritive value out of crushed animal bone and they're eating animal hide. Okay? Like you scrape away the hair. And you can boil animal skins and eat them. I've done that and just makes like a gel and the kind of tasteless, like leather noodle, basically. And what he's documenting as they're dying from this is the horrible bowel obstruction. And they're trying to make, like in his journal, he's describing this of trying to make these, um, these enema devices. And even for a while on each other, trying to perform like an operation on each other, because that bone fragment, that they're boiling that bone fragment and drinking it.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  But that bone fragment in their bowel is like reforming. Oh, God. Into bone plugs. And even when they find these guys, years later, a guy from the Canadian Mounted Police is like doing this very, you know, like a basically a crime scene description of what went on in here. And still laying there a couple of years later is a plate full of like solidified excrement. Oh, God. Everything else rotted away. These guys are just skeletons, but that like bone shit.

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you look at like, and I just finished this book the other day. And, um, so you look and be like, oh, they're starving to death, starving to death. But like when you starve, that all this stuff is actually going on and it like that had to have been fatal. And we were working on, you know, Mo, who's been on the show, we've been working on this project, which I'm, you know, wanting to plug, but we did an episode on the Donner Party, who died up in the mountains in California. And the Donner Party, uh, in addition to the cannibalism they're famous for, it was so crazy because before I read that book,

• 1:51:06Speaker 02

  we're hearing all about that the members of the Donner Party were eating the crushed bone and eating the boiled hides. On the other thing is all those hair follicles,

• 1:51:16Speaker 02

  would form into dense balls that would like plug your rectum. And he's just describing all this as they die. It's horrible. But that dude Randy Brown gave me that book because you could tell that in his mind, man, like, like starving out, like it stuck with him. You know, and he's walking around handing out a book about starving to death in the Arctic, you know? Because he knew it well, but that was like in that same thing, like Donner Party being like known for the cannibalism and all that. Is, um, all those people die and probably like a lot of the same thing.

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  Eating that hide and hair and crushed bone, just miserable.

• 1:51:54Joe Rogan?

  People have a very delusional perspective when it comes to like surviving, living off the land.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:52:01Joe Rogan?

  How difficult it would be.

• 1:52:02Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  In talking to him, when he talked about that guy that struck off, like this is after a long time he spent in the bush. He talked about the guy that struck off and the guy struck off with a 22 pistol. And Randy's like, um, you cannot, in that environment, you cannot survive with a 22 pistol. Like he just knows it categorically, you cannot survive with a 22 pistol. And the dude didn't.

• 1:52:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, how could you?

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, people would probably think that they're such a badass, they would.

• 1:52:33Joe Rogan?

  How many bullets do you have?

• 1:52:34Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't know how many he had, but he said you won't, you won't make it. And he made a point, that 22 pistol, when they found that body, that 22 pistol's hanging on a peg inside. Hanging on a peg inside the cabin where he found him.

• 1:52:46Joe Rogan?

  I mean, there's no way you'd have enough ammunition, even with a pistol, you're limited in your range, you're limited in your accuracy.

• 1:52:53Speaker 02

  No, they did everything with two 43s.

• 1:52:57Speaker 02

  In those years that he did that. And they would load like variable loads.

• 1:53:02Joe Rogan?

  Why variable loads?

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  He'd make light loads and heavy loads.

• 1:53:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay, for different animals?

• 1:53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, they'd make little grouse loads and shit, and they'd load their big game bullets, you know? All the two 43. Hunt moose with a two 43, caribou with a two 43.

• 1:53:16Joe Rogan?

  Where's he getting all the gunpowder? Where's he getting?

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  They were loading their own stuff.

• 1:53:20Joe Rogan?

  Wow, so you'd have to go somewhere to get resupply.

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had a camp, at one of their camps, they had a reloading station. The various guys that live in the bush would kind of come in there and use that reloading station. And that John the Baptist dude looted that reloading station.

• 1:53:35Joe Rogan?

  Ah, yeah, you gotta kill those guys. Those guys caused you to starve to death.

• 1:53:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:42Joe Rogan?

  If you're in that kind of an environment and someone's a mooch.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  No. But you know what's weird is about it that I get, that someone pointed out to me later, I think John the Baptist, like John the Baptist from the Bible, I think John the Baptist starved to death.

• 1:53:54Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  So, that's like a little bit of a confusion is, yeah, how would that be?

• 1:54:01Joe Rogan?

  Is that real?

• 1:54:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's this dude, there's this kid, I probably might tell you about him, this, this French kid, Etienne Brule. That the French brought over and like, uh, he's known as Etienne Brulee and the French brought him over during the colonial era and gave him to the tribes. So he'd learn their language. And eventually he gets crossways with the Huron Indians and the Huron Indians killed him and allegedly ate him. So everybody knows him as Etienne Brulee, but which is burnt, right? But did he get the name after or before?

• 1:54:33Joe Rogan?

  Was it a self fulfilling prophecy?

• 1:54:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, like, so you're like, well, hold on, did he just happen? Like, he presumably got burned to death or boiled or whatever, you know? So it's like, is he Etienne Brulee because of what happened to him? Or was he running around with that moniker? And then like, low and behold. So the John the Baptist thing is baffling to me.

• 1:54:54Joe Rogan?

  Did John the Baptist in the Bible? I'm not familiar. Did he definitely starve?

• 1:54:58Speaker 02

  No, people keep telling me that.

• 1:55:00Joe Rogan?

  Beheaded?

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's beheaded.

• 1:55:03Speaker 02

  He didn't starve.

• 1:55:04Speaker 05

  The word on the streets is beheaded in prison.

• 1:55:05Joe Rogan?

  The word on the streets.

• 1:55:06Speaker 02

  Someone was, someone sent me this big passage talking about his emaciated state.

• 1:55:11Joe Rogan?

  Maybe he was emaciated before they cut his head off.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't worry about it.

• 1:55:16Joe Rogan?

  Maybe they were saving him from a fate worse than death.

• 1:55:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Can I talk about my project?

• 1:55:19Joe Rogan?

  Sure, please do.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  Well, uh, I'm working out with Mo, who's been in, you know, um, been on the show before.

• 1:55:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:27Speaker 02

  Uh, Mo and I, um, we did the very early Meat Eaters together. You probably met him that way, right? Originally?

• 1:55:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I met him that way. And then when he did, um, Bourdain's show.

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we did very early Meat Eaters together. And then we've always kept in touch. And he went on and did all that, you know, crazy stuff with Bourdain and got heavily involved in that. And then after Bourdain's death, there was this kind of, uh, I don't know, man, almost like this, like Exodus of talent, like all these people that worked on that great show, you know? Um, and they went on to do other stuff. And then Mo and I got joined up on this and we've worked on, Mo's a showrunner on it and we've worked on it together. And, uh, it's coming out January 28th and it's a show on History Channel where we look at outdoor mysteries. So I brought up, we did an episode on Donner Party. And, um, you might ask, well, what's the mystery about the Donner Party? But it's kind of like what happened, um,

• 1:56:24Speaker 02

  Could it have gone differently? Like what mistakes were made? And most of these mysteries that we do are things that I have that most people have some awareness around. Right? Like you've heard, you've at least heard of it. And I think that people think about the Donner Party, for instance, just taking the example. You make, people make, when they're making a joke about cannibalism. You'd be like, oh, Donner Party. You know what I mean? Like, people don't realize what happened there, but. And, and going to that place. Uh, I think I never realized about it, that, that. There was 90 people that got stranded in the Sierra Nevada that winter, 1846 to 1847. Um, a thing that you never, ever realized and that changes everything I've ever thought about it, half of those, more than half of those were kids. Oh, my God.

• 1:57:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't think about it that way. Right? It's mostly children. And you get into all this wild stuff about it, like, uh. You're trying to keep your kids alive. Yeah. Right? So there's this sort of like, uh, earlier I said, I'll talk, you know, touch on cannibalism. I saw what Randy Brown making that cannibalism pact.

• 1:57:29Speaker 02

  You're trying to keep your kids alive. And the kids, by and large, the kids survived. The kids survived at a much higher rate than adults. And out of adults that survived. Parents. Did better. Parents were more likely to survive. They, when they sent a little subgroup off to try to go get help. A lot of the people died on the way of trying to get help. Parents lived. Parents who had kids back at the main camp survived. So it's this whole weird thing about like the psychology of why I keep going on. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then like you think about it from that angle, like if your kids were faced with starving to death. You would absolutely feed your kids. Human meat. Yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah.

• 1:58:15Speaker 02

  Right? So you look at it like this American horror story, but in the end, like all those 90 people, like half lived. You know, half of them survived. And they just, they did.

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  They always did just like what they needed to, to live. You know? But then there's like, the, the, those families still carry the stigma. Of course. You know, it's like, it's terrible stigma, but like getting into that, like getting into that story and starting to, um. Realize that and then following that up with reading that book about like the pain and anguish of starving to death. Like you wind up like having just more, I wind up with a lot more empathy. And just, you know, you almost kind of want to honor those people rather than condemn them as like these like, like I said, it's like an American horror story.

• 1:59:05Joe Rogan?

  You can't condemn them. We would all have done the exact same thing. To condemn them is just so, that it's a horrible way to look at it. It's a survival story. I mean, human beings like, it's like those soccer players that got in the plane crash or, do you know the story of the two boats that tried to make their way across the Arctic? It was like, was it, was the terror in another boat? There's a Netflix series about it, but the Netflix series is like a horror series. They bring in like a mystical monster and stuff and the people all resort to cannibalism. But they tried to make it

• 1:59:47Joe Rogan?

  across this path and they got frozen in in their boats and they were waiting in the spring for the ice to thaw and it never thawed. And they got stuck there and then they tried to walk out and make it to the ocean and they never made it. And but

• 2:00:03Speaker 02

  And they wanted to have to do cannibalism. And in the Donner Party, they would have had times, in some of these cases, they had a little system where you would not, where you would keep the carcasses separate so that people didn't have to eat their own kin, eat their own relatives. They mostly ate people that died of natural causes, but at the time, there was no prohibition, there was no legal prohibition on killing Indians. They had two Indian guides with them and a guy murdered them.

• 2:00:32Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:00:33Speaker 02

  They murdered them to eat them and never faced any repercussions for it. It was more illegal, it was more illegal to kill someone's cow than it was to kill two Native Americans.

• 2:00:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, he just walked. Everybody knew he did it. Never faced any repercussions for it. Murdered two people to eat them. Other than that, they were eating people that were already there.

• 2:00:54Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  When we were up there filming in Donner Pass, we met these people and they were saying that these guys were doing this thing about places named with Christmas names and they had thought Donner

• 2:01:08Joe Rogan?

  Like Donner and Blitzen? Oh, God.

• 2:01:13Speaker 02

  Not the funniest, man.

• 2:01:14Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I spent a ton, like I spent, you know, two months, um, two months traveled, Mo, um, maybe a little over two months traveled, Mo, working on this whole thing. It's been fun, my man.

• 2:01:26Joe Rogan?

  So what is the name of the show?

• 2:01:28Speaker 02

  It's called Hunting History.

• 2:01:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not a hunting show, Hunting History.

• 2:01:32Joe Rogan?

  There it is.

• 2:01:32Speaker 02

  There's me on a arrow, me on a arrow plane. That one, that episode, oh, it's like a whole little trailer.

• 2:01:40Joe Rogan?

  So what is the, the idea of the show?

• 2:01:42Speaker 02

  It's like outdoor wilderness mysteries, outdoor mysteries, and it, we do some things that are decades old, we do some things that are centuries old. Um, when I was, uh, for instance, when I was growing up in the Great Lakes region, there's a, the, the first ship they ever built on the Great Lakes was called the Griffin, and no one's ever found that ship. That ship went missing in the Great Lakes, and, um, people are still trying to hunt for that ship. It's kind of like, you know, it's regarded as the holy grail of Great Lakes shipwrecks. There's still people actively searching for it. We're doing on Donner Party.

• 2:02:13Joe Rogan?

  What's in the ship that they're trying to get?

• 2:02:15Speaker 02

  It would be gone now. It was full of beaver pelts. It was full of about like six tons of beaver pelts.

• 2:02:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:02:21Speaker 02

  And, uh, there's all these different theories about the, the crew mutinyed, whatever, but there's a guy, this dude named Steve Leibert, who came out of, uh, who came out of like naval intelligence, the naval intelligence world, and this guy named Steve Leibert is the latest, um, has the latest claim of having found the Griffin. So I went and dove, I went and dove that, that site to check out his claim of having identified this ship.

• 2:02:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 2:02:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think he's got it.

• 2:02:50Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 2:02:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:02:51Joe Rogan?

  What do you think it is? What do you think he found?

• 2:02:55Speaker 02

  There are, it, it kind of blows your mind when you think about the Great Lakes. There are literally thousands of missing ships, and then there are many, many ships that are there, but no one knows what they are.

• 2:03:08Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  And I, I think he's, I think he's found a very old ship, but I don't think he's found the Griffin.

• 2:03:13Joe Rogan?

  Six thousand and ten thousand shipwrecks. Wow.

• 2:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:19Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:03:20Speaker 02

  The burden of, the, the burden of proof on finding the Griffin is, is hard. So this dude named, you, you've heard of the guy LaSalle, LaSalle?

• 2:03:26Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:03:27Speaker 02

  He wound up dying down in this neck of the woods. He built the first ship and he got above Niagara Falls and built the big ship. And built the first ship that ever sailed the upper Great Lakes. So he went all through the upper Great Lakes, went to Green Bay. Filled it full of beaver hides to get himself out of debt. Sends all those beaver hides back down to Niagara, but they go missing along the way. He makes his way down. He winds up being the first European to descend the Mississippi to the mouth. And then later he gets into like a um, a mutiny of sorts.

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  Down in the lower Mississippi gets in a mutiny of sorts. And one of his guys shoots and kills him, just kind of this whole just run of shitty luck. But he lost his ship. So there's all this different evidence of pointing to where this ship might lie, but it's almost certainly like.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  It's somewhere. It's somewhere, you know, because stuff lasts so long, like in that freshwater stuff lasts so long. You go look, you go dive down and look at ships that are 100 years old, 200 years old. Looks like you could refurbish things.

• 2:04:33Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  You know, except for the ones that get broke up by ice. Yeah. So that ship's laying around.

• 2:04:37Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:04:38Speaker 02

  I'd like to tell you we found it.

• 2:04:40Joe Rogan?

  God, dude.

• 2:04:40Speaker 02

  I hung out with a bunch of dudes that are looking for it.

• 2:04:42Joe Rogan?

  The lakes are so big.

• 2:04:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hung out with dudes that are looking for it. And now people are getting really good at it because all the sophisticated sonar. That's why they're finding all this crazy shit.

• 2:04:51Joe Rogan?

  I don't think people understand how big the Great Lakes are.

• 2:04:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:04:54Joe Rogan?

  They're literally like oceans.

• 2:04:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:56Joe Rogan?

  They're so big.

• 2:04:57Speaker 02

  Especially when you add them all together, you know?

• 2:04:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:58Speaker 02

  And the place is pretty deep, but yeah, they're littered with stuff, man. And dudes like, there's just, there's just common dudes now that can buy really sophisticated sonar and underwater cameras. And people are just finding stuff like mad.

• 2:05:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, now there's more sophisticated technology.

• 2:05:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you can just cruise around. You can just cut grids on sonar. So you got dudes that are out there just identifying wreck after wreck after wreck right now.

• 2:05:19Joe Rogan?

  You were the first.

• 2:05:19Speaker 02

  That's why there's a lot of enthusiasm that someone's going to turn this boat up, but it has these big cannons. They should have these big French built cannons and until someone finds the cannons, no one's gonna buy what you're saying.

• 2:05:31Joe Rogan?

  Cannons?

• 2:05:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, yeah, La Salle brought cannons from Europe, mounted them on the boat.

• 2:05:36Joe Rogan?

  So like to, in case someone was trying to, pirates, did they have pirates back then?

• 2:05:40Speaker 02

  They did, but also they just would, you know, try to intimidate Native American tribes and, you know, they'd get them into the fur trade, but also there's like rogue people and you're also, at that time, the French are duking it out with, English had a big toehold up in Hudson Bay. Um, so you got the English there, you got the Spanish to the south, just a ton of conflict and people still trying to duke it out over who's gonna control the Great Lakes.

• 2:06:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  So there's this argument too, which is crazy, like picture we had a, picture if we had a naval vessel that sank off France right now. It's not France's, it's not France's boat.

• 2:06:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:14Speaker 02

  Right? Cause we have all these agreements in place. It's like our boat. So they would have to hand it over to us, it's flying under our flag, it's, it remains our vessel. There's this argument that, um, La Salle's ship was flying under a French flag. Whoever finds that ship, there's an argument that the French would be able to claim that ship. So even if some dude, like some freelancer was to find it and find those cannons and shit and finds this ship, there's an argument that the French could say, we'll take it from here, son.

• 2:06:41Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's flying under our flag and our international treaties mean that that's our boat.

• 2:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:06:48Speaker 02

  Which would decentivize me and wanting to find.

• 2:06:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like fuck that. Imagine you go through all that work?

• 2:06:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, they do it for glory.

• 2:06:55Joe Rogan?

  Gold wrecks, like shipwrecks and people like hunting for those things, that's a fascinating world.

• 2:07:00Speaker 02

  It is, man.

• 2:07:01Joe Rogan?

  That's a, cause if you get lucky and if you find one that's filled with like Roman coins.

• 2:07:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:07Joe Rogan?

  Like you, we were talking about billions of dollars.

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  Lot, lot of money to be made. We were, we were gonna do our last episode, when we went and did the Donner Party, what we were supposed to be doing is we were supposed to be hanging out with guys that are still, this whole fleet of Spanish vessels that went down off the, uh, east coast of Florida. So the, the Atlantic side of Florida, we were gonna go down with these guys that are still fighting over and finding all this stuff from all these sunken ships, but then the, the hurricane, like, I mean, like passed right over it. So we didn't get to go do that. We didn't go do that show. We did one about that centered that wanted to become mostly a story that centered around in the seventies. There's this aircraft that was carrying the Speaker of the House.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  So, do you remember, um, was it, is it Nina? No. Hey, Jamie, I hate to be treating you like a research assistant here. Hale, Cokie Roberts, that's who, you know, the journalist Cokie Roberts from like NPR and shit?

• 2:08:09Joe Rogan?

  Okay, yes.

• 2:08:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cokie Roberts' father was this guy Hale Boggs, okay? Hale Boggs was a Democrat and he was the Speaker of the House in the seventies. And Alaska had at that time only one, Alaska had a sole congressman. There was an airplane that had baggage, their sole congressman, the Speaker of the House, an assistant and a pilot that went down in Alaska in the seventies? Still, no one's found that plane. Speaker of the House. Like, imagine if that happened now, you know what I mean? Yeah, 1972.

• 2:08:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it makes sense in Alaska.

• 2:08:46Speaker 02

  Oh, it does, but then you get into the huge number of all these missing aircraft and like all that search centered around this glacier. That it would have been, that it would have been swallowed by a glacier. And we went to this other site where this military transport plane years ago did go down in a glacier and the glacier swallowed it and I think it was like, you know, I don't know, 20 some years later, that glacier started to spit that plane out at the toe of the glacier. Like, it carried it, I don't know, what is it, 13 miles?

• 2:09:15Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:09:16Speaker 02

  Under the ice and then started to spit out human remains and plane parts. Every spring, the military goes to the foot of that glacier, every spring they go there, or sorry, every summer, they go to the toe of that glacier and they're still identifying, they're still identifying human remains that are moving out of that thing miles away from where that plane burrowed into that glacier.

• 2:09:39Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:09:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, we went right there.

• 2:09:41Joe Rogan?

  1952.

• 2:09:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:44Joe Rogan?

  Wow, look at that, that wheel.

• 2:09:46Speaker 02

  Yep. And on top of that glacier, we had got there after that, we flew over it in a helicopter, they don't want you landing there, but on top of that glacier is all this orange paint, orange paint spots. They weren't working there anymore, but you can tell they were in there marking. Everything that you can see coming out of that as that glacier recedes.

• 2:10:05Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:10:05Speaker 02

  And they're marking all those pieces. So um, this, this other glacier where like most of that search focused for that baggage bogs flight focused on this one glacier. But if you do the math on that glacier, had it gone into that glacier where they had spent a ton of time looking at like into a crevasse in that glacier, had it gone into that glacier, the glacier would have spit it out by now. Cause you can kind of track how much a glacier moves every year. So now it's kind of, the idea that it was in that glacier has been kind of put to rest. Well, here's dude searching that one.

• 2:10:36Joe Rogan?

  Why you could see as you move, how far it travels. Wow.

• 2:10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes. We went there. We went down into some of those crevasses like that, too.

• 2:10:46Joe Rogan?

  Do you, you climb down into one of those things?

• 2:10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Which is scary as shit.

• 2:10:49Joe Rogan?

  Fuck that.

• 2:10:50Speaker 02

  Cause that stuff is alive, man.

• 2:10:53Joe Rogan?

  It's moving.

• 2:10:53Speaker 02

  I mean, not like literally alive, but it's like groaning and moving.

• 2:10:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. We went down and back, back down to one of those.

• 2:11:01Joe Rogan?

  Sound like?

• 2:11:01Speaker 02

  You know, it was pretty quiet that day. It was actually more peaceful there because you know how much that, all that cold air from that ice generates so much wind?

• 2:11:09Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:11:10Speaker 02

  We, we land this helicopter there and um, the wind's howling. And I don't know much about aviation. I mean, I, I use it a lot, but uh, the wind's so bad. I was asking a guy, at what point do you risk that your helicopter is gonna blow off the glacier? And a couple of minutes later, he's a very experienced pilot, but a couple of minutes later, he winds up tethering down his helicopter. Cause he's like, now you're like fucking with my head.

• 2:11:37Speaker 02

  So he tethers down his helicopter on these ice screws, you know, to like make sure the, the helicopter doesn't slide and go down into a crevasse. And then you, you know, I just, I was with a very experienced ice climber, but uh, harness up and pick your way down. But anyways, it's like deaf, it's like so loud and you hear a lot of that, you know, the noise of all that ice moving, cause it's moving all those rocks and everything. It just pulverizes stuff as you see with that, that aircraft. Um, but when you drop down in that, when you drop down in that crevasse and go down that sucker, it gets like unbelievably calm.

• 2:12:13Speaker 02

  Real calm.

• 2:12:14Joe Rogan?

  How far did you go down?

• 2:12:16Speaker 02

  Oh shit, not that far, probably thirty feet.

• 2:12:18Joe Rogan?

  That's far enough.

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  Oh, far enough for sure. It's unnerving. It's unnerving.

• 2:12:22Joe Rogan?

  That's unnerving for me, just hearing you talk about it.

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  I remember you telling about your like, you're, you know, that, that, that chamber you like to go into?

• 2:12:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's not quite like that, but it's like, you just all of a sudden are like,

• 2:12:34Speaker 02

  but you're also in there just thinking like how you just, how you could get, um,

• 2:12:37Joe Rogan?

  Smushed?

• 2:12:38Speaker 02

  Oh, just obliterated.

• 2:12:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:40Speaker 02

  You know? There's stories, I was hunting with this dude years ago and he used to, he used to be, um, involved with Outward Bound. And they were doing a glacier hike. A guide was doing a glacier hike and they had a kid, like a student, I think it was Outward Bound. They had a student go off to take a piss.

• 2:12:58Speaker 02

  And into one of those things, never found. Cause there's big rivers flowing underneath that stuff.

• 2:13:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh god.

• 2:13:04Speaker 02

  Right? So picture you like, you go down, so you're down there, you can hear water running everywhere. You can hear rivers underneath you. Inside that, but you're, you're roped up, you know? But even the rope you're on, you're just screwing screws into the ice.

• 2:13:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:13:19Speaker 02

  And then, at a certain air temperature, right? Like, it, the screw conducts heat. You know? So at a certain air temperature, like, if you drive that screw in and that screw is conduct, is pushing heat, it'll melt the ice around the threads.

• 2:13:37Speaker 02

  So, you'll actually like drill these big holes into the glacier like a V. Picture on, picture you're coming in like a V and the two upper parts of the V are like thirty inches apart. And you drill at a forty-five degree angle until those holes meet. Then you snake a rope down one hole.

• 2:13:57Speaker 02

  And get it snaked out the other hole. And then tie a knot in that, and that's what's holding you.

• 2:14:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, fuck that.

• 2:14:04Speaker 02

  Because if you put that screw in there, at a certain temperature, the threads of the screw are moving like solar heat and atmospheric heat down the threads and can melt the thread out. So you're just, you're tied in on a little like, yeah, you're like tied-

• 2:14:22Joe Rogan?

  Hoping it holds on.

• 2:14:23Speaker 02

  Onto a hunk of the ice. You back down into those suckers, dude, it's like, it's an ass pucker.

• 2:14:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's how they found the Iceman, right? He was in a crevasse.

• 2:14:31Speaker 02

  Was he in a crevasse?

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  Wasn't he? I think he fell into a glacial crevasse.

• 2:14:36Speaker 02

  Oh shit, I don't remember that.

• 2:14:37Joe Rogan?

  I think as the glacier melted, that's how they found his body.

• 2:14:39Speaker 02

  Oh, I know they found him out of melted glacier, but I didn't know that he was, I didn't know those suppose that he fell into a crevasse.

• 2:14:45Joe Rogan?

  I'm not sure, but I think that was the story, that they feel like he fell, like he was involved in some sort of mortal combat with someone and got shot with an arrow.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was all tore up.

• 2:14:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. They made a movie about his last days.

• 2:14:58Joe Rogan?

  Did they?

• 2:14:58Speaker 02

  A fictional movie.

• 2:15:00Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a European fictional movie.

• 2:15:02Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever see the movie?

• 2:15:03Speaker 02

  And it sort of sets up the whole circumstance, right? I haven't seen it yet, but it sets up the whole circumstance.

• 2:15:09Joe Rogan?

  This is a really dumb movie.

• 2:15:10Speaker 02

  Otzi was his name.

• 2:15:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Otzi. They named him. I'm sure that wasn't his real name.

• 2:15:14Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:15:15Joe Rogan?

  He's like, that's my fucking name.

• 2:15:16Speaker 02

  He had a tattoo on his shoulder.

• 2:15:18Joe Rogan?

  That was his wife.

• 2:15:19Speaker 02

  He had tattoos!

• 2:15:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he did have tattoos. It was just really wild. That was thousands of years ago, right? Um, there was a really dumb movie about an Iceman that, uh, I think it was like the 1980s. I think it's called Iceman.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  No, I remember that. They bring a guy back to life?

• 2:15:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then the wife falls in love with him and fucking runs off with him.

• 2:15:35Speaker 02

  That happens, man? That happens in there?

• 2:15:38Joe Rogan?

  So dumb. Yeah, the, yeah, the Iceman, uh, takes a liking to this guy's wife.

• 2:15:43Speaker 02

  Oh, that's the plot?

• 2:15:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:45Speaker 02

  I thought it was more like an E T. plot.

• 2:15:47Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no.

• 2:15:48Speaker 02

  Like they, they resuscitate him and then the scientists want to get at him.

• 2:15:51Joe Rogan?

  Is this it? Yeah.

• 2:15:53Speaker 02

  That's who he starts getting with?

• 2:15:54Joe Rogan?

  Is this the same one? Yeah, the guy gets back to life and I think he falls in love with the lady. They, he like, he's hanging out with people and then, you know, the Iceman.

• 2:16:05Speaker 02

  That's her?

• 2:16:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think he winds up falling in love with her and the scientist gets real mad. So that's the plot of Encino, man. They just make that? Yes! Is that what this is? It's Paulie Short, Brendan Fraser.

• 2:16:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they thaw him out and he's okay, which is fucking hilarious in and of itself.

• 2:16:24Speaker 02

  The other night we were watching, um, watching these old movies like this, uh, the other night we were watching,

• 2:16:30Joe Rogan?

  Timothy Hutton.

• 2:16:31Speaker 02

  Temple of, uh, Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom.

• 2:16:33Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:16:34Speaker 02

  And you know, the, the love interest like the, the Indies love interest in that movie. I can't remember what her name is, but anyways, we're watching with our, with our youngest kid and, um, who really wanted to watch Indiana Jones movie. And my wife's like, man, you just can't have teeth like that anymore in the movies.

• 2:16:55Speaker 02

  The love interest, you know, like you, you forget like how perfect, like oral processes have made everybody's teeth.

• 2:17:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:17:03Speaker 02

  And so here's like this woman who's like, job is like, you know, she's like the hot woman in the movie that everyone want, that everyone's gonna fall in love with. And you look and you're like, you're like, yeah, you're right. Like teeth are so perfect on everybody now, you know, and you're looking at an old movie, you're like, oh, that's before they were able to do all that.

• 2:17:20Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's funny.

• 2:17:22Speaker 02

  We were watching that, we were watching that stupid show, uh, uh, on New Year's Eve, you know, that ball dropping?

• 2:17:28Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:17:28Speaker 02

  Thing?

• 2:17:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:29Speaker 02

  And just, you know, every single person even kind of involved in that whole production has those teeth.

• 2:17:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, most of those teeth are fake now.

• 2:17:39Speaker 02

  Oh, no, that's what I'm saying, man. Like, but absurdly so, you know, and it was just really funny to look at that and to be like, you're right. Like there's something that looks like you can't put your finger around it. It's like the, the, the, the heroin absent perfect teeth.

• 2:17:52Joe Rogan?

  Right. Do you remember Lauren Hutton? She had that gap between her teeth. It was kinda hot.

• 2:17:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:17:57Joe Rogan?

  It was like part of her, her charm. She had this gap.

• 2:18:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Nowadays you'd feel some pressure to go tighten that up.

• 2:18:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:03Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:18:04Joe Rogan?

  Probably.

• 2:18:04Speaker 02

  They put some shit on your teeth and tighten it up.

• 2:18:06Joe Rogan?

  Big movies, you gotta tighten that up.

• 2:18:08Speaker 02

  Tighten it up.

• 2:18:09Joe Rogan?

  It's funny you were talking about the beaver pelts.

• 2:18:11Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:11Joe Rogan?

  Because you were the first person to explain to me like the richest man in the world at one point in time, his business was beaver pelts.

• 2:18:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was America's first homegrown millionaire, uh, John Jacob Astor.

• 2:18:23Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy.

• 2:18:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he was a German, uh, he came over as a young kid. He didn't have, you know, uh, broke, penniless. Astor comes over, um,

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  Just an immigrant, right? Comes to the US, he's trying to figure out a way to make his, to make his way in America. And in New York, he meets a guy in the fur business, like a furrier. And the guy says, a lot of money be made in furs. And, um, and that was like, that was the commodity for, uh, North America. When you look at all the English powers coming, or all the European powers coming to establish colonies, you know, it's known like the Spanish come in and they get like all that Aztec gold, all that ink and gold. Other European powers were like jealous about the wealth Spain was pulling out in mineral wealth. And they always thought that in, in our area, up in what's now the continental US,

• 2:19:18Speaker 02

  you know, eventually gold did come out, but they were sort of like primarily like we need our own goldfields. But what emerged was, was fur, you know, fur was our thing, fur was like the thing of value. So Astor became a fur trader. Um, and, you know, helped launch these fur trapping expeditions. What, and became involved in what we now call the mountain man area. Like when you hear the term mountain men, um, the mountain man era. So we, uh, in my, in my sort of other job outside of doing my history channel show, like we do audio originals. And, um, we did one on the deer skin trade called the long hunters. And it was about Daniel Boone, 1770s in the deer skin trade.

• 2:20:00Speaker 02

  And right now, uh, we're coming out with one called Meat Eaters, American History, The Mountain Men. And it covers that like John Jacob Astor era of the beaver trade. And what all those dudes, so when you hear about Jim Bridger, John Colter, Jed Smith, what they were producing, they were producing a material that would be used to make felt hats. Like that's what that was all about. Rather than you'd think if, and when, when they would trap a beaver, so you know, the revenant-

• 2:20:32Joe Rogan?

  How many fucking beavers were around back then?

• 2:20:34Speaker 02

  A lot, you know, more, more, even though we've recovered them really successfully, there were far more beavers back then than there are now, but you could-

• 2:20:41Joe Rogan?

  What's the estimated population of beavers back then before people invaded?

• 2:20:45Speaker 02

  In the tens of millions.

• 2:20:46Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, what are they now?

• 2:20:49Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know. I don't know. No, I do know because I looked at it the other day, but I forgot what it is. I forgot what it is. It's a, they're very recovered across a big part of their range, um, but nowhere near what it was at the time, you know? The, the, the, the whole continent, um, was shaped by beavers. Like they, they manipulate their landscape more than anything besides humans, right? Um, but people had always whittled away at them, you know? Like earlier I mentioned Daniel Boone, like his primary job was a deer skin, he was in the deer skin trade and what they were using for back then. You know when you see really old pictures of like kings and shit and they got those kind of white pants on? It's probably a buckskin pant, right? So our whole term with like, when we say a buck, something's worth a buck.

• 2:21:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:34Speaker 02

  That's about the equivalent value of a deer skin.

• 2:21:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:36Speaker 02

  So, you know, that's where that term came from. Those guys at the same time, they would hunt deer skins in the summer because they wanted them real thin. And then they would switch and they would hunt beaver pellets in the winter to, for wool felt, to create wool felt. But we kind of gradually, uh, extirpated, like wiped out beaver numbers. And then when you get to 1804 and the Lewis and Clark expedition, Lewis and Clark push into the interior, into the, into the Northern Rockies and around the headwaters of the Missouri. And when they come back to St. Louis, like one of the things they report on is like, holy shit. Like we found the, the, the last great stronghold of the beaver.

• 2:22:20Speaker 02

  Is in the Rockies and that's what pushed this whole mountain man era. So when you watch the revenant like Hugh Glass, you know, get mauled by the grizzly. Yeah. Those guys were all like their thing was they were beaver trappers. And earlier I mentioned the English up around Hudson Bay. So you're familiar with this thing called the Hudson Bay Company from, from history? Yes. It was like a fur trading enterprise. The Hudson Bay Company and the English always had this model of the fur trade where they would build posts and then incentivize Indians to hunt fur or trap fur. They didn't trap like the, the, the English weren't themselves trappers. The English were traders and they would incentivize tribes to go trap and bring them the furs.

• 2:23:03Speaker 02

  In the Rockies, that didn't work. They couldn't get these nomadic equestrian bison hunters with the program. They, they thought it was by and large, um, the sentiment was it's beneath us. We're not going to give up our whole life way. Everything we need to come from the buffalo. We live in big family groups. We follow the herds. Like I don't, I'm not going to go trap beaver for you. It's of no interest to me. So then they're like, well, shit, how are we going to get the beaver? And so they start hiring dudes. They start hiring orphans and people that, that, that, uh, were under indentured servitude and ran away, whatever. They hired these big groups of Americans out of the colonies, the former colonies. This is that time of the United States. They hired these guys and say, you're going to go out

• 2:23:49Speaker 02

  and live for years at a time in the Rockies and trap beaver. And here's where to meet us on such and such date every year.

• 2:23:57Speaker 02

  So go to this valley, right? Wow. Go to Jackson Hole or, or go to Daniel, Wyoming or Bear Valley, wherever. And we'll meet you in June and you bring all the shit you caught and we'll give you some more equipment. And like, that was the mountain man era. All that stuff. When they caught those beavers, there's no need. They didn't want the meat. They could eat the meat, but there's no value in the meat. The hide, they don't even want the leather from the hide. That was thrown away. They don't want the main guard hairs. Like, so if you look at a pelt, um, you got these silky long guard hairs and then there's an underwool underneath it. They don't want the silky long guard hair. All they're after is the under fur.

• 2:24:40Speaker 02

  On the hide.

• 2:24:41Joe Rogan?

  To line hats.

• 2:24:42Speaker 02

  But to make felt. But there was so much, there was so much conning and scamming of people taking shit that wasn't beaver wool and trying to pass it off as beaver wool. You had to ship the whole hide to Europe. So they could confirm that it was in fact a beaver hide, at which they would hire people to pick the guard hair off, shave that underwool off, throw the guard hair away, throw the leather away, take that underwool and turn it into a felt to make a hat.

• 2:25:13Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:25:13Speaker 02

  Like an Ebenezer Scrooge top hat. That's what that shit was about. So when this dude, when La Salle, you know, comes over and builds the Griffin, like that first ship is so crazy. Like, he was building that ship to transport beaver hides, because traditionally, they'd always done it with canoes. And he's like, I got a better idea. I'm gonna build a giant ship, fill that sucker full of beaver hides, and I'll get rich.

• 2:25:35Joe Rogan?

  Thousands of beaver hides.

• 2:25:36Speaker 02

  But, but, yeah, his ship vanished. And that's what they were still up to in the Mountain Man era. And that whole industry was born, in this, in this, in this Mountain Man project we're doing, like, that whole history was born, you can kind of say it was born with the Lewis and Clark expedition, in identifying this tremendous population of beavers in the Northern Rockies. And it kind of ended in 1840.

• 2:26:00Joe Rogan?

  If there's a time-

• 2:26:02Speaker 02

  The market collapsed.

• 2:26:03Joe Rogan?

  If there's a time where you could go back in history and just observe, like, they could put you in like a fucking, a bulletproof bubble, and you're just like, you don't, no one knows you're there.

• 2:26:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:14Joe Rogan?

  You could just go watch. Where would you go? Would you go to that time?

• 2:26:17Speaker 02

  No, I just changed my time. For a long time, I knew what my time was, but I just changed my time recently.

• 2:26:23Joe Rogan?

  What, what does it mean?

• 2:26:24Speaker 02

  I'd be happy to, I'd be happy to explain.

• 2:26:27Joe Rogan?

  What did it used to be?

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  There used to be an idea that's existed for much of my life, is about the peopling of the Americas. And sometime, maybe around 15,000 years ago, there was so much of the Earth's water was tied up in glaciers, that-

• 2:26:50Speaker 02

  Asia and Alaska were connected by a chunk of ground the size of Texas. The Bering Land Bridge. When people hear the Bering Land Bridge, you kind of picture this little like, it's like Moses like crossing the part, you know, the parted Red Sea. But the bear, you would, you could have lived and died on the, you know, generations were probably born and died on the Bering Land Bridge with no idea that it was a bridge. Like I said, there's a chunk of ground the size of Texas. That much water was tied up in glaciers. Um, people crossed. They almost certainly weren't saying like, hey, Bob, let's go to Alaska. But they were doing their thing. They were hunting and moving and they crossed. And then because of all that ice, once they moved into what's now Alaska, the theory held that they were trapped there by glacial ice.

• 2:27:35Speaker 02

  And eventually there was this thing called the Ice Free Corridor opened up around like would have spilled out around Edmonton, Alberta. And the idea was the first people to lay eyes on the continental US. When that corridor opened up, when that little gap through the glaciers opened up, the first Americans like spilled out onto the American Great Plains, killing mammoths with, with spears. As all this new information has emerged, um, the dates don't line up anymore. So we, we did a hunting history episode about the, this very question of, um, how and when and who were the first people to enter the continent, right?

• 2:28:20Speaker 02

  And now, um, that was called the Ice Free Corridor hypothesis. But it's been made more and more untenable by finding these super old sites. For a while, the oldest site we knew about in the new world was in, was this site called Monteverde down in Chile. So if people came in at the Bering Land Bridge, why is the oldest known site of human occupation all the way down in Chile?

• 2:28:43Joe Rogan?

  How old is it?

• 2:28:44Speaker 02

  It was somewhere around 13, 14.

• 2:28:46Joe Rogan?

  But what about those, uh, New Mexico footprints that are 22,000 years old?

• 2:28:50Speaker 02

  Again, yeah, it's cloud in picture. There's a lot of the dating, the dating on that is clouded. But anyways, it's like antiquity in America is much older than originally thought.

• 2:28:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:59Speaker 02

  So, and then there's now currently the oldest site is on the Columbia River Drainage. Um, near a place called Pittsburgh Landing.

• 2:29:10Speaker 02

  There's a really old site there and it winds up being that it doesn't line up with the idea of people entering this ice free corridor because like when did the corridor, when was it open, when was it possible to pass through, but now you have all these older dates and then people are even starting to question the validity of the idea of like that this corridor opened when they thought it did. So now the fashionable idea, it's, it's seems rock solid and we, we filmed much of the episode up at our, up at our fish shack. There's this theory now called the kelp highway that you had this pretty stable environment all along the Pacific coast and it was defined by kelp beds, enormous, enormously rich in

• 2:29:52Speaker 02

  fish resources, enormously rich in shellfish, right? And that the first Americans were, were a seafaring people and all that shit about what glaciers are melted and not melted and when this and that corridor and land bridge is open was a moot point because these were people that just came down the coast and they knew how to survive in that marine, that kelp marine environment and they went south and went south and went south and things remained remarkably similar and with like great speed, with great speed, all the way down the coast to also there's people in Chile. Wow. And instead of this idea that people came into the great plains and then spread

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  to the coasts, it's that people came down that route and you know that really old site, the currently oldest, the currently oldest like iron clad, absolutely accepted academic consensus accepted site is that Snake River site, or on the Columbia drainage, that they came down the coast and then the continent was populated by people who just followed these major rivers, these salmon runs and stuff, coastal fishing people.

• 2:31:03Speaker 02

  migrated up these rivers following fish and then turned into over time became these mammoth hunters and these in interior grassland hunters but their their genesis was in these seafaring people and as people came down they kind of filled in so you go to like you know the the the the the the Klingit or the Haida right um that live along the the Alaskan coast now like that's their ancestors right they were the they were they were perhaps people living that way in those places were the first people to enter the continent so so my time machine would be whatever the hell day that was

• 2:31:38Joe Rogan?

  that's what it would be

• 2:31:39Speaker 02

  to see that man because picture like you know picture me the first person or the first group of people to see a continent

• 2:31:52Joe Rogan?

  yeah

• 2:31:54Speaker 02

  and you can't even you know what I mean

• 2:31:55Joe Rogan?

  yeah how do we even know that that's the case though we don't there's people that were before that

• 2:32:00Speaker 02

  that's that there's an argument that

• 2:32:02Joe Rogan?

  the thing is like

• 2:32:03Speaker 02

  there's an argument there's arguments

• 2:32:04Joe Rogan?

  humans came from Africa right

• 2:32:06Speaker 02

  that well yeah that that's the human diaspora is like anatomically like the the sort of widely accepted scientific explanation is that anatomically and behaviorally modern humans um there was many waves of hominids coming out of Africa but sometime around 70,000 years ago

• 2:32:30Speaker 02

  our current human ancestors came out they came into a Europe that was populated by Neanderthals perhaps other hominids they kind of won right and then and then spread around the world and the last continent outside of Antarctica which was never you know the last continent to be occupied by humans outside of Antarctica which arguably was never occupied by humans would have been South America was the last the last stop

• 2:32:54Joe Rogan?

  wow and what's wild is there's monkeys down there

• 2:32:57Speaker 02

  yeah

• 2:32:58Joe Rogan?

  that's what's wild

• 2:32:59Speaker 02

  but man there's always there's this there's this there's this theory called the Slutrian hypothesis which is that that northern Europeans Came over much, much like 10, you know, 10 plus thousand years ago. There's always these different ideas that that someone, you know, someone from somewhere else blew in on a raft. There's always this thing, but the, but what I'm talking about is a sort of like, again, the kind of like academically accepted idea, the sort of mainstream idea remains and it's supported by genetic, linguistic, everything is that, that humans came out of, um, the Americans that, you know, our Native Americans came out of Siberia through a Siberian pathway,

• 2:33:43Speaker 02

  probably in waves, you know, the people we now, like if you refer to now like northern coastal peoples, Eskimo, Inuits, um, they were a later wave. They were different than what became the Athabaskans to the south. It was like a later wave. So there could have been repeated waves of people coming, but I've always been interested in the first wave.

• 2:34:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:04Speaker 02

  Whoever they were, the first wave.

• 2:34:05Joe Rogan?

  And when was that? Are you aware of the sage wall in Montana?

• 2:34:09Speaker 02

  No, I'm aware of Montana.

• 2:34:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, you live there. The sage wall is a recent discovery. It was on private property and, um, uh, these people, uh, it was completely covered with woods and, uh, you know, dead falls and everything. And they started cleaning it out and they found this thing that looks remarkably like a constructed wall. That's the sage wall in Montana. It's very, it's very strange. It's very strange. And it's a vertical wall. It goes down 13 feet under the ground and, uh, it's long and straight and it's very confusing because it very much looks like placed stones that were cut and moved somehow, uh, in this particular way.

• 2:34:54Joe Rogan?

  And, uh, there's a lot of debate about whether or not.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  That's a wild looking wall.

• 2:34:59Joe Rogan?

  Wild looking. Well, see if you could find the overhead of it, Jamie, cause when you look at the overhead, you're like, Jesus Christ, this looks like people put this there.

• 2:35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. The debate is, is it natural or man made?

• 2:35:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, there is some people that think it's man made and there's some people that think it's natural, but it's leaning much more towards, um, man made.

• 2:35:19Joe Rogan?

  But it's confusing.

• 2:35:20Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, I am familiar with that area. Yeah, no, I got it.

• 2:35:24Joe Rogan?

  It's real weird.

• 2:35:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of.

• 2:35:29Joe Rogan?

  A lot of natural formations.

• 2:35:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you get fissures in rocks that are filled from volcanic activity. Sure. It's puzzling. It's definitely, maybe we'll do an episode on that. I think we will.

• 2:35:39Joe Rogan?

  Well, this gentleman right there, see that guy down there with the beard, Jamie? That's, that's the guy, I think it's Wandering Wolf on, um, uh, I think that's his name. On YouTube. Yeah, Wandering Wolf. Uh, he's been studying this for a while. Please ignore his nose ring.

• 2:35:54Speaker 02

  Well, is that what that was? I couldn't tell if he had a bug or if that was a nose ring.

• 2:35:56Joe Rogan?

  Nose ring. But like, this is crazy. It's crazy because they're flat and straight and they look fairly uniform and they look like they're cut into position. And there's also a bunch of these, uh, you know, where they would grind things. There's these posts that sit out that look like they're carved outside. That are similar to a lot of stuff they find in South America around Machu Picchu and stuff like that. It's very, very weird stuff. Because if, if that was made by people, who and when and how?

• 2:36:28Speaker 02

  Um.

• 2:36:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:36:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:32Speaker 02

  My, I'm, I'm, I'm going natural, but.

• 2:36:35Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 2:36:36Speaker 02

  We'll do a future episode on that question.

• 2:36:38Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I think natural too, until you look at some of them, like some of those images, go back to some of those images, Jamie. Some of those images are like, how the fuck? Like, they're so flat and straight and look at that.

• 2:36:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, that isn't, from that angle, it's insane. From that angle, you would no doubt look and be like, that's a manmade wall.

• 2:36:55Joe Rogan?

  It looks very stacked. They're all cut square. What's that, Jamie?

• 2:36:58Speaker 05

  Kind of looks fake, but.

• 2:37:00Speaker 02

  Is that, is that a fake image or is that the real image?

• 2:37:02Speaker 05

  I can't tell.

• 2:37:03Speaker 02

  That, you know what?

• 2:37:04Speaker 05

  Added to the picture.

• 2:37:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:06Speaker 05

  It doesn't look like the same stuff from the video.

• 2:37:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:37:09Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Well, let's see some of the images from the video. Well, that one up is the, that one there is real. That's legit.

• 2:37:16Speaker 05

  That looks more real.

• 2:37:17Speaker 02

  Uh, no, that's, that's something different. That's not the same sight.

• 2:37:21Speaker 05

  Look at the, it looks like a, so yeah, that's certainly like these AI.

• 2:37:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that looks AI.

• 2:37:26Speaker 02

  That's not the same sight and that's not a vegetation that grows around there. That's something different goofing around shit.

• 2:37:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So here's, here's a video of this guy walking around.

• 2:37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:35Joe Rogan?

  It's really interesting stuff because there's so much evidence of humans, right? The, the, you know, with the mortal and pestle grinding holes. And shit are all there. So there was some human occupation in this area. The question is like, was this put there by humans? Or is this a natural feature that they found and just exploited?

• 2:37:54Speaker 02

  Have you followed that news that's come out about that boy, that Anzik one boy in Montana?

• 2:37:58Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:37:59Speaker 02

  Um, sounds like a Spielberg movie, don't it? Anzik one?

• 2:38:02Joe Rogan?

  It does.

• 2:38:02Speaker 02

  So there is a, there's a Clovis child that they found years ago and near Will Saw, Montana.

• 2:38:12Speaker 02

  It was from a Clovis hunter culture. This child had been buried with projectile points and ochre.

• 2:38:19Speaker 02

  And they've recently done work on like, like stable isotop work. And it was like, he had a, he would, had a diet of woolly mammoth.

• 2:38:27Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Which people had always thought.

• 2:38:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:30Speaker 02

  Right? But that's like this thing that gets always kicked around is, um, and, and I have a friend, uh, David Meltzer. I don't know if you're looking for guest suggestions, but Half a Finger Meltzer.

• 2:38:39Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:38:40Speaker 02

  I can love him. But anyway, Meltzer, um, he's an anthropologist and he's always been involved in this debate about where these, these Clovis hunters and these Ice Age Americans, like to what degree were they really these like, uh, northern wild men? Killing mammoths with spears and shit, right?

• 2:38:57Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:38:58Speaker 02

  Um, and people have tried to like, over the years, sort of emasculate these Ice Age hunters. Being like, oh, they probably weren't really killing all these mammoths, you know? They probably found them and scavenged them. You know, and, and, and explaining away, David would hate me saying this, but, uh, explaining away, evidence that they were slaying mammoths. And also explaining away the theory that, um, that they killed all the mammoths. Right?

• 2:39:27Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:39:27Speaker 02

  Um, and they were eating like, that they were eating a much more varied diet and using plant resources. And they were kind of like a kinder, gentler Ice Age hunter. So it's funny that out of this, as this debate is always waged on, it'd be like, This accusation that in creating our idea of these Ice Age hunters, you create the kind you wish was there. Right? So a dude like me is gonna be like, yeah, man, mammoth hunters. Right, right. You know, and it's the more dude to be like, oh, no. Berry pickers. Yeah, berry pickers, right? Like, they were gentle. But they they've finally just did all this work and lo and behold,

• 2:40:08Speaker 02

  he was young, but he would, he was eating mother, you know, drinking mother's milk.

• 2:40:15Speaker 02

  And it was, they were mammoth eaters. You know, which backs up this idea that those big ass points,

• 2:40:23Speaker 02

  those big ass points they made were like being used. I participated in this study. Me and some of the guys I work with participated in this study with Melzer, this guy named Matt and Aaron, who runs an experimental archaeology lab at Kent State University. And they gave us all these stone tools. And we had a dead bison land there. And we just, we were supposed to just spend the day butchering the bison with stone flakes and also with Clovis points. So we're supposed to butcher half with Clovis points and butcher half with stone blades. They just want people who were like expert butchers to do it. Like, you don't really know how anybody did anything, but just to see. Because what, what the problem they have when they're looking at the archaeological record is the only thing left is bone and stone. Everything else is gone.

• 2:41:07Speaker 02

  So when you find some mammoth, you know, you find a mammoth rib cage eroding out of a riverbank, and lo and behold, there's a projectile point laying there. We had always said, oh,

• 2:41:18Speaker 02

  someone stabbed it with that point and killed it. But do you really know that? Right? You'll see a mark on a rib. And you're like, oh, see, they shot it in the rib. And that's why it's got a scratch on its rib. Well, do you really know that? We just assume. Right. So we did this project of to butcher this whole thing, a fresh dead bison, all the stone points. And then they go, then they went and cleaned all the bones. This guy, John Hayes, from Hayes Tax Nary Studio, did this, did this way to treat the bones and clean them where you're not messing up the bones at all. So now you have a set of bones that you know what happened to them. Right? And you have a set of stone tools that you know they were used for.

• 2:42:00Speaker 02

  And the idea is you're creating something to be to compare. You know, like there's this famous Folsom site where all these, these out of New Mexico, where all these bison skulls, these Ice Age bison skulls, they look different. Like that skull you got out in your, out in your studio?

• 2:42:15Joe Rogan?

  A step bison.

• 2:42:16Speaker 02

  Enter. Big horn, you know, longer horned animal. They all got these cut marks on the bone right here. Inside the jaw mark, inside the jaw. And then people have been like, oh, it must've been from extracting the tongue. And I even thought that I went, I went to SMU and looked at those skulls and held those bones in my hand. And I'm like, oh, look, they were probably getting the tongues out and made all those cut marks inside the jaw bone. But what's funny, um, in going and extracting the tongue with stone tools, I didn't do shit would have left any kind of mark like that. You know, and again, you don't know how they did what they did. But it just, it, it creates an interesting data set. So that when you do look at cut marks on bones, you can start putting together what might've caused it.

• 2:43:00Speaker 02

  That what, what he wants to work on next is they want to do an ostrich.

• 2:43:04Joe Rogan?

  What do you think those cut marks were if they weren't extracting the tongues?

• 2:43:08Speaker 02

  Dude, I got no idea.

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:43:10Speaker 02

  You're looking at them right there. I don't know. When I extracted the tongue with a stone, I extracted the tongue with stolen tools and I didn't have any need to go anywhere near that. Thing like that. I don't know, but it just goes to show like you, you look at stuff. You find a projectile point with a rib cage and you're like, they stabbed it.

• 2:43:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:29Speaker 02

  But then, well, maybe they, maybe that we're looking at Clovis points all wrong. Maybe Clovis points were knives. Maybe that big projectile point was a Clovis knife. Or maybe it was both things. And maybe when you find a mammoth skeleton, it's got two or three broken Clovis blades. It wasn't that they had been jabbed into it necessarily. Maybe they were the butchering tools.

• 2:43:53Joe Rogan?

  But then what would be the killing tools?

• 2:43:56Speaker 02

  It's a great question. Yeah. I personally, like me not being an academic who's invested my entire career into this question. I do know this, like, I think that when people talk about, oh, they were finding them. Like, I spent a lot of time outside. You just don't find all this fresh dead shit laying around everywhere. Right?

• 2:44:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:44:16Speaker 02

  You could, you could spend many, many, many, many, many days out wandering around the woods. You don't find like fresh dead.

• 2:44:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:44:23Speaker 02

  Edible materials.

• 2:44:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:44:24Speaker 02

  You find rotten shit, dried up shit. You find skeletons. But I don't, I don't, I have a hard time swallowing the idea that, that all these mammoth kill sites were just where they happened to stumble across a fresh dead mammoth.

• 2:44:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that seems ridiculous.

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  And cut it up with a projectile point.

• 2:44:38Joe Rogan?

  Nah.

• 2:44:39Speaker 02

  Or cut it up with a blade. Like, they were killing mammoths.

• 2:44:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:41Speaker 02

  That's my, my take on it.

• 2:44:43Joe Rogan?

  That makes much more sense. And probably the mammoths weren't aware that they were even gonna hunt them. They probably weren't being hunted by anything.

• 2:44:50Speaker 02

  That's this idea when we're talking about that ice-free corridor deal, and you look at how fast humans filled up the, the North and South America. Like, a, a sort of motivational driver for that really quick spread would be that, let's say you were the, you're, you're, you pop out in, in the Great Plains and the animals have never seen a person. Right? A mammoth's never seen a person. Um, you just walk up and kill it.

• 2:45:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:15Speaker 02

  And you do that for a couple of months in some valley, and then everything gets like, oh shit, it's one of them things, and runs away. Well, jump to the next valley.

• 2:45:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:25Speaker 02

  And find more of the ones that don't, you know? Find more of the ones that have never seen ya.

• 2:45:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:31Speaker 02

  You know, like, I've, I've had occasion before to see, like, a, a elk that would have had no way to encounter a dog. Encounter a dog. And their attitude is kinda like, um, the hell's that? Right? You know what I mean? They're like curious about it, they're kinda looking at it. So you can imagine, like, the, these, these early peoples could probably just walk up on a lot of shit and just kill it.

• 2:45:52Joe Rogan?

  Probably, right?

• 2:45:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, what is this, this thing gonna hurt?

• 2:45:55Joe Rogan?

  Tiny thing with a stick.

• 2:45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, what's this thing gonna do?

• 2:45:56Joe Rogan?

  Fuck outta here.

• 2:45:57Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden, like, dah!

• 2:46:00Speaker 02

  Some bitch stabbed me. So that was an idea that pushed like how fast people spread around. And then they weren't fighting each other. Cause they were all at all this, there's no competition for resource. They're not fighting each other. And they're enjoying like very high reproductive rates. Because they're drowning in food and there's no conflict.

• 2:46:18Joe Rogan?

  I wonder what the wildlife populations were like back then too, before humans. Like when humans did encounter, when they first encountered North American wildlife, I wonder what the populations were.

• 2:46:30Speaker 02

  Staggering.

• 2:46:31Joe Rogan?

  Must've been crazy.

• 2:46:32Speaker 02

  Just staggering. Staggering. We'll never know.

• 2:46:37Joe Rogan?

  We'll never know. But if you had a time machine, that's your spot.

• 2:46:40Speaker 02

  Well, they're getting closer to knowing now, cause now they can do crazy shit like they can go into pond sediments. Do you know what I mean? Like stuff shedding, you know, you're shedding, you're shedding cells all the time. Right? At some point you'll go down 10 feet into some pond. And pull a little bit sediment out. And lay that sediment out and do some analysis and be like, you know, there's skin cells from. Six mammoths. A short-faced bear. Right?

• 2:47:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:08Speaker 02

  Whatever. It's just, it's getting crazy. You know? It's funny like talking about Indiana Jones, like that style, like the archaeology is becoming, um. Increasingly anthropology, archaeology, uh, is becoming like the realm of the science. Like the, the, the, the lab scientist, you know what I mean? Not, not the field work like. It, it's so much more, it's such a Richard field of inquiry now to analyze stuff we already have than it is to go find new stuff.

• 2:47:35Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:47:36Speaker 02

  You follow me?

• 2:47:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:37Speaker 02

  And when you go on an archaeological dig, you know, they're always, they just dig, they just dig a fraction. There's a knowledge now. There's a knowledge now that, that tomorrow, we're gonna know a bunch of shit we don't know. So if we got a hundred squares, we'll just dig one now.

• 2:47:54Speaker 02

  And the impulse used to be just to come in and like destroy the whole site. Right? And wash everything away with hoses. And just look for big bones and big stone points. And you'd come away with thinking that they use big stone points to kill big bones because you just washed into the ditch. All of that micro evidence. All of those small bones, all of the plant pollen. You just washed everything away because you kind of knew what you were looking for.

• 2:48:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:48:18Speaker 02

  So we probably make the same mistake now. So when you go to a dig, they just go like, we'll just check this little square. And then leave. You know, this is protocol now. Knowing that in 10 years, 100 years, whatever. Someone's gonna have a way better way. They'll stick some little stick down there and they'll tell them everything you need to know, you know?

• 2:48:35Joe Rogan?

  Did I tell you about my friend John Reeves? Did I ever tell you about the boneyard in Alaska?

• 2:48:39Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. No, you had him on the show. Oh, yeah.

• 2:48:41Joe Rogan?

  He comes on the show every year. He was supposed to be the last guest this year, but he got pneumonia. So he's coming on in February.

• 2:48:47Speaker 02

  Oh, that shit's fascinating, man.

• 2:48:48Joe Rogan?

  That place is crazy. You know, it's only six acres.

• 2:48:52Speaker 02

  Is that right?

• 2:48:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Six acres. Thousands and thousands of bones.

• 2:48:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:57Joe Rogan?

  And what he thinks is it's like some sort of a natural disaster took place and probably asteroid impact. There's a thick layer of carbon, thick layer of carbon, and in the permafrost is all these bodies. And they think that it's probably just washed all these bodies into a ditch. And that's why there's so many of them there.

• 2:49:17Speaker 02

  It's at the perfect spot.

• 2:49:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, perfect spot. They found animals that weren't even supposed to be in Alaska there.

• 2:49:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like if you had La Brea tar pits to yourself, man.

• 2:49:25Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. But it's all his property, so no one can go there. So, you know, you know, they've, they've found them in the East River now because it turns out that, which museum was it, Jamie?

• 2:49:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, no.

• 2:49:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They dumped them and they dumped some of the bones in the East River. So these people have actually gone down there and found them.

• 2:49:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:43Joe Rogan?

  In the East River now. They found a bunch of bison bones and all kinds of shit in the East River. Which is really crazy.

• 2:49:49Speaker 02

  No, it is.

• 2:49:50Joe Rogan?

  Because exactly where they said that they dumped these things off, they found them now. It's really wild. And so

• 2:49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's a

• 2:49:58Joe Rogan?

  You should go to visit this guy's property.

• 2:49:59Speaker 02

  I would like to do that.

• 2:50:00Joe Rogan?

  That would be a great episode for your show because this, this whole thing is crazy.

• 2:50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:05Joe Rogan?

  You know, and they may or may not have found human remains there.

• 2:50:08Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:50:09Joe Rogan?

  They can't talk about it.

• 2:50:10Speaker 02

  I imagine that that shit gets pretty complicated in a hurry, man.

• 2:50:13Joe Rogan?

  Archaeological. Yeah, it gets a little, yeah.

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  We, uh, we did one on the, we did one on the, the lost Roanoke colony and, um, there's archaeologists working on, what happened at the Ross, lost Roanoke colony. And the minute you, um, bring up like human remain conversations, people, it's just like

• 2:50:29Joe Rogan?

  Shut the fuck up.

• 2:50:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:30Joe Rogan?

  Things get real weird.

• 2:50:32Speaker 02

  Enormously complicated.

• 2:50:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:33Speaker 02

  I recently met a guy that does, um, he's a, he's Puebloan, so he's from one of the Pueblos in New Mexico. And his whole focus is on, he does repatriation for his pueblo, like, you know, for people not familiar with the pueblo, be like basically, you know, it's akin to a tribe, right? He, he works on repatriation for his tribe. Mostly focuses on remains.

• 2:50:54Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:50:55Speaker 02

  Getting back, um, getting back the remains of his ancestors.

• 2:51:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:51:01Speaker 02

  From all these museums and stuff.

• 2:51:03Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:51:04Speaker 02

  You know, they want them back.

• 2:51:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:06Speaker 02

  And I once, and I, I had said to him in this conversation, I'd said, hey, why can't there be like a deal to be struck where

• 2:51:13Speaker 02

  you just say to the museum, like, okay, you keep one gram of that bone for your work. Keep a gram of the bone and give the rest back to us. He said, that would never be acceptable to us.

• 2:51:25Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:51:26Speaker 02

  Be like the same way if someone went and dug your, uh,

• 2:51:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:51:28Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:51:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:29Speaker 02

  Someone dug your grandpa's bones out of a graveyard and later you're like, hey,

• 2:51:34Joe Rogan?

  Let me borrow his foot.

• 2:51:34Speaker 02

  Give me my grandpa back. And like, no, we're keeping it. Really?

• 2:51:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:38Speaker 02

  We're gonna do studies on them.

• 2:51:41Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:51:41Joe Rogan?

  God, it's so complicated.

• 2:51:42Speaker 02

  So that, yeah, so, yeah, I think that it would be, um, finding that. And then what, what complicates a lot of that human remains stuff too, especially with stuff that he's talking about, that, that stuff he has is as old as it did. Is you, there's a little bit of a

• 2:51:58Speaker 02

  A little bit of a question like the groups that are there now, peoples that are there now, were they the peoples that were there before?

• 2:52:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:52:05Speaker 02

  You know, because people move all the time, right? You just look at like, like how the Comanche moved, look how the Sioux were in the upper Midwest and areas in Minnesota and wound up, you know, coming westward and all this movement. So when you have bones, there's always a question of, well, who, you know, currently, typically it goes like this, it was like, who was currently on the land? But when you're talking about bones that are 10, 11, 12,000 years old, there's like a little bit of a, in my mind, there's a little bit of a question of like, well, who do you, um, how do you know that that, that, that, that person's direct descendants aren't in New Mexico?

• 2:52:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:52:41Speaker 02

  You know, think about how much time passed. Like, are you giving them, like, is it the wrong, are you giving them to the wrong people?

• 2:52:47Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's a very good point.

• 2:52:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, because people moved all over the damn place.

• 2:52:50Joe Rogan?

  God, it's fascinating.

• 2:52:52Speaker 02

  But with the Pueblos, with the Pueblos, it is not that, like with the Pueblos, it is like people that have had occupation on these places for hundreds of years and people just came in and hauled their ancestors out.

• 2:53:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:53:03Speaker 02

  To stick them in museums. I was at a museum with my kids over Christmas break, I was at a museum in Chicago and we go into this exhibit and all the walls are, all the displays are papered, so you can't see. And there was a sign that just said, like, we're in a, there's a, we're in a repatriation issue. So they blocked it all.

• 2:53:24Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:53:25Speaker 02

  You know, that whatever, I don't even know what was behind the paper, whatever the display was, they're in a, they're in a custody battle over their display and blocked it for view. And years ago, I went to Salta, um, Salta to look at those children of the corn, you know, those, you ever hear about those children, those Incan children? They left on that mountaintop and they kind of freeze dried. They have three of these children they found, but whatever the deal they made with the Incan, the contemporary Incan peoples, the deal they made is they'll only display one at a time. And, um, when I went, it was the, it was the child that had been struck by lightning after the fact. And it would just, you know, you just walk up and it's in a, it's in a case, but you're looking at someone's baby, you know?

• 2:54:04Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:54:04Speaker 02

  Looking at someone's young child, it looked like the, the kid looked like could stand up and walk away.

• 2:54:08Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:54:09Speaker 02

  Perfectly preserved, even like the feathers are perfect.

• 2:54:12Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:54:13Speaker 02

  You know? Not quite stand up and walk away.

• 2:54:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:16Speaker 02

  But, but, I mean, like, perfect, you know? Perfect. Um, but yeah, there's someone probably, I haven't followed that situation, but someone is probably saying, I don't want my...

• 2:54:28Speaker 02

  You know, I don't want my ancestor in your decorating your

• 2:54:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, understandably so.

• 2:54:33Speaker 02

  Museum.

• 2:54:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean. Wow. Listen, man. Oh, here's something that he found. Look at this. This, um, this had been sawed.

• 2:54:42Speaker 02

  Oh, no shit.

• 2:54:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So the piece that's missing that's

• 2:54:45Speaker 02

  He found it like that?

• 2:54:46Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm. The piece that's missing that's cut right there, that was a piece that they'd made to, uh, to date it.

• 2:54:52Speaker 02

  Oh, I got it.

• 2:54:53Joe Rogan?

  Uh, but the top part had been sawed.

• 2:54:56Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 2:54:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I forget how old that was.

• 2:54:58Speaker 02

  No shit.

• 2:54:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, but that, that, that's from John. That's from the boneyard. I'm gonna introduce you, though. He's coming back in February. You, you really need to get to know him. He's a fascinating cat.

• 2:55:10Speaker 02

  I would definitely like to.

• 2:55:11Joe Rogan?

  He's a fun dude, too. All right, Steve. Uh, so your show, Hunting History, History Channel, is it available now? Is it on now?

• 2:55:17Speaker 02

  January 28th.

• 2:55:18Joe Rogan?

  January 28th. Okay.

• 2:55:19Speaker 02

  10:00 PM Eastern.

• 2:55:20Joe Rogan?

  There it is. Hunting History, Steve Rinella.

• 2:55:23Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 2:55:23Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 2:55:24Speaker 02

  Thanks for letting me plug it, man.

• 2:55:25Joe Rogan?

  Always a good time.

• 2:55:26Speaker 02

  No, I appreciate you letting me come on and plug it.

• 2:55:28Joe Rogan?

  There's the mule deer that we shot together.

• 2:55:30Speaker 02

  I know, I like that, man.

• 2:55:31Joe Rogan?

  For 12 years ago.

• 2:55:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:33Joe Rogan?

  Time flies.

• 2:55:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's your biggest animal to date.

• 2:55:35Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy? It's kinda crazy. That was 12 years ago.

• 2:55:39Speaker 02

  Was it really?

• 2:55:40Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't seem like it. Yeah, but it was. 2012.

• 2:55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, again, appreciate your generosity, especially appreciate letting me come on and, uh, and, and plug my project.

• 2:55:48Joe Rogan?

  Anytime, anytime. It's always good to talk to you.

• 2:55:50Speaker 02

  And if you hung out with a dude in Canada in the 70s named John the Baptist, let me know.

• 2:55:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, let him know.

• 2:55:54Speaker 02

  I gotta put it to rest. I can't stop thinking about that guy.

• 2:55:57Joe Rogan?

  All right. Bye, everybody.