Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 113:  Live at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 113: Live at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City. Georgia discussed killer Ronnie Lee Gardner and Karen covered the Salt Lake City Library hostage incident. Tune in for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode! Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories an important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:07Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Every Wednesday, we recap our old shows with all-new commentary and case updates and general chitter-chatter.

• 1:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Today, we're rewinding to episode 113, which we named "Live at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City."

• 2:04Karen Kilgariff?

  We recorded this live in Salt Lake City, and this episode came out on March 22, 2018.

• 2:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's listen to the intro of episode 113.

• 2:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What's up, Salt Lake City?

• 2:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 2:56Karen Kilgariff?

  We've got to choreograph that dance.

• 2:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 2:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Got to.

• 3:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Someday.

• 3:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, best friends, what's up?

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  There is so many opportunities for screaming at these shows.

• 3:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 3:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the best.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Loving it.

• 3:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It looks like there's a ghost walking somewhere to their seat up there.

• 3:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you guys have ghost dusters here? Because we did not approve that. Is that the undead screaming in the back? What's happening?

• 3:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, huge zombie contingent tonight, yeah. We love it. They're like, "There haven't been zombies in this theater for 25 years."

• 3:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, I'm pulling out all the hits for the live show.

• 3:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Since 1990.

• 3:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks. I just want to point this out really quick. I stopped curling my hair right about here. Can you tell? I was just like, "This sucks, I'm bored."

• 4:02Georgia Hardstark?

  If you can't see it, then who fucking... Then it doesn't, then it's not there.

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Just always keep your head real turned. Don't let anybody come up on your hindquarter at all. Just keep it... Hey, hey!

• 4:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep it to the far a faucet area.

• 4:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You wanted me to remind you, "Live Corrections Corner."

• 4:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, you want to do it right off the top?

• 4:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, do you?

• 4:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Fresh and sure.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess I do.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, so the episode dropped today, and... Oh, thanks!

• 4:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, it happens every Thursday.

• 4:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. It's easy, you can do it yourself. It's just, you just upload it onto a computer. It's crazy.

• 4:47Georgia Hardstark?

  You just get yourself a Steven.

• 4:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Make him do everything.

• 4:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven!

• 4:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No, he's not here!

• 4:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He's not here, although... Yeah, no, we don't bring him. But, doesn't it look like someone's standing under here?

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  We brought Steven's favorite skirt to use as the table cover.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  He's very shy, so he's bent at the waist under this table. Ow, ow!

• 5:18Georgia Hardstark?

  We need a moment of silence for the relationship between Jennifer and Anniston. Jennifer Anniston and what's-his-face.

• 5:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, we'll just call him that. We'll just call him that from now on.

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Mac.

• 5:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Matt?

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Matt. Oh, Justin something.

• 5:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't matter anymore.

• 5:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't matter, he looks really good on her arm, I must say.

• 5:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I never bought it.

• 5:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No? But then there's this already, already, it came out today that they're breaking up, and then it's like, everyone's rooting for Brad Pitt and Jennifer Anniston back together. Nobody cares, nobody is. And what if every fucking time you broke up with someone, everyone was like, "Remember that guy who cheated on you 10 fucking years ago?" Everyone's hoping you guys get back together.

• 5:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Marry him for the second mistaken time!

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, though, how he has 10 kids? Everyone wants you to get back together with him.

• 6:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Being a stepmom to 10 is amazing.

• 6:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck that shit.

• 6:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Did I ever tell you this story that I know? That's the secret Burbank story?

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, this stays here in the vault. SLC, SLC, you're in the vault now.

• 6:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I trust you?

• 6:32Karen Kilgariff?

  With a secret? There's, it's not really a secret. There's a, it's a thrift store on Riverside in Burbank. And the word on the street is, you know, it's the American Heart and Lung Association thrift store. All the old ladies are just fucking smoking butts all day, but... The word on the street is that, because it's the one that's the closest to the Warner Brothers Studios, where they shot the television show Friends. And when it first came out that Brad Pitt was cheating on Jennifer Anniston with Angelina Jolie when they were shooting some wonderful film, like in Greece or somewhere. It was that Greek one, yeah, we know. Let's not talk about it.

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  She took all of his clothes out of his mansion closet and drove it on down to the American Heart and Lung Association thrift store and dropped every item of clothing.

• 7:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes!

• 7:29Karen Kilgariff?

  At this, now, it's Brad Pitt's clothes, so they're all $11,000 shirts.

• 7:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And they smell incredible.

• 7:38Karen Kilgariff?

  They smell.

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I would've just bought them just to lay face down in a pile of... No, I wouldn't, Vince, I wouldn't have done that.

• 7:46Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, "Do you want to smell what luck smells like?" Yeah, and so for, normally, there's a lot of wicker chairs for sale in this thrift store, and then some paperback books by James Patterson, God bless his soul.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But then for like, I'm sure, eight wonderful days, it was just filled with like, the highest-end clothing.

• 8:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That's all I can guess, that's high-end. Hugo Boss. What's high-end men's clothing?

• 8:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Armani. Michael Kors. We'll name everything we've seen in Macy's.

• 8:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Nordstrom Rack?

• 8:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought...

• 8:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's all I know.

• 8:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Kohlhaan slip-on shoes.

• 8:28Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 8:30Karen Kilgariff?

  What about your outfit? Do you want to talk about it a little bit?

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I shop at vintage stores, thank you, because I don't know any names and designers, and now no one can fucking blame me for wearing cheap shit. Because it's old, it's vintage, it's old, it's fine.

• 8:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is an old dress. Thank you.

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Walk it on down the rug. Yeah, yeah, they love it. Oh, a full square. She's doing square footage, loving it. It's a new run. You just invented the new runway. Just a big gorgeous rectangle of rug.

• 9:05Georgia Hardstark?

  On a gorgeous rug, oriental rug.

• 9:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oriental rug.

• 9:10Georgia Hardstark?

  We demand it.

• 9:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you whoever brought this from home. We really appreciate you letting your foyer go bare for us this evening, while we enjoy...

• 9:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Touching it.

• 9:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And loving it.

• 9:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It'll be for sale outside in the lobby after the show.

• 9:30Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you wearing?

• 9:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I almost said, "What are you doing?"

• 9:36Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you doing over there? Well, I can't find shirts that fit me, and I don't try to find them. I was going to buy, I swear, I got it like 9 o'clock at CVS. I was gonna buy a black shirt that said Burbank on the front of it.

• 9:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Represent!

• 9:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I'm a joke.

• 18:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you hear us talk about you? We talked about you.

• 19:01Karen Kilgariff?

  We talked about me this morning. I flipped my shit. No, so all, everyone here has like been tweeting at me, but I didn't want to say that I was coming tonight.

• 19:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 19:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So, hi.

• 19:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi. So glad you introduced yourself.

• 19:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 19:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry I yelled at you. I feel bad. You're great. Give us a hug.

• 19:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 19:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 19:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Bye. Is she leaving?

• 19:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 19:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 19:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you have a question?

• 19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna stay for the show, right?

• 19:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck yeah.

• 19:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 19:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, if we have any questions, we'll ask you. We know you're saying. You were like, and her name is Celine, and I'm like, oh shit, wait. That's the best thing of all time.

• 19:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I just thought it was like, she was basically like, thought she was at a town hall meeting where she's like, hello, I'm Celine Beck, and I'm on the actor's track. I just want to let you know, you're pretty much wrong about everything all the time. Okay. Thanks for podcasting. Perfection.

• 19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We miss some shit sometimes.

• 19:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean. Could you imagine if people made documentaries where they're at least like, and then Ted Bundy, 10 years after he actually did the thing?

• 20:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, they just got everything wrong.

• 20:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Do a follow-up documentary? Okay, here's the stuff we should have looked at a little closer. Listen.

• 20:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Look, listen.

• 20:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Look.

• 20:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We're not perfectionists.

• 20:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Certainly.

• 20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're back.

• 20:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That was a fun one, all the way back in 2018.

• 20:31Karen Kilgariff?

  What a weird mile marker that we all live by, at least in my generation, of Jennifer Aniston's relationship.

• 20:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. We're just waiting and hoping for her to find love. I feel like Justin Theroux, and maybe it's just because he's friends with Amy Sedaris. I'm like, he has to be the best person ever, right?

• 20:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Well, and what's weird is I remember the first movie I saw him in, and I was like, who's this hot hunk, newest hunk of the week?

• 20:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I do think that, I don't know why actors marry each other.

• 21:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Just don't do that. It's not gonna work. You're, of course, you're attracted to each other.

• 21:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 21:07Karen Kilgariff?

  You're both really hot.

• 21:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And dramatic, and fun, and excitement everywhere.

• 21:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Especially if you're successful and like, you know.

• 21:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Like, not to be insulting, you have to be a little bit unhinged to be, A, in the entertainment industry, B, an actor or actress. Like, that's kind of

• 21:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Fully.

• 21:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Part of what it takes to like, pretend to be someone totally different.

• 21:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you need a grounded earth sign for your insanity. Sorry to be that way.

• 21:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even know what that means. I love when you see like, such and such, like Reese Witherspoon, and her fucking bank executive boyfriend, or her fucking architect husband.

• 21:47Karen Kilgariff?

  The finance bro.

• 21:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Finance, or like, yes. I guess the point is if Jennifer Aniston can't find love, is there hope for humanity? You know?

• 21:55Karen Kilgariff?

  If we do enough Pilates.

• 21:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And drink enough smart water.

• 21:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the good news. That American Heart Association thrift store is still alive, and probably thriving now more than ever on Riverside. I just drove by it the other day.

• 22:09Georgia Hardstark?

  We've gotta go. We've gotta stop in.

• 22:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We've got to.

• 22:11Georgia Hardstark?

  See if there's anything left from him.

• 22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I got an incredible couch there that was very Laura Ingalls Wilder, but it fit for what kind of weird thing I was doing in my office at the time. Big old, very comfortable to lay on, old couch.

• 22:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you ever think, and thank your lucky stars, that we, neither of us, well, me at least, you could tell me yourself, never got bedbugs, or scabies, or lice from the, all the thrift-

• 22:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I have scabies right now.

• 22:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. I've always had scabies. From the, all the thrifting we've done?

• 22:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, oh, yeah.

• 22:46Georgia Hardstark?

  There is no reason.

• 22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  For real. It's like, well, I think it's because my mother always washed everything in extra hot, and would say, you're going to get scabies.

• 22:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Shopping at thrift stores.

• 22:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So you kept an eye out.

• 22:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And I said, you're a classist.

• 23:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You're like, I'm actually gonna give the thrift stores scabies, so fuck you.

• 23:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm bringing the filth to the St. Vincent de Paul, so fuck everybody.

• 23:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Moths. I definitely have moths. Like, I've inherited some, some of my mom's moths, for sure.

• 23:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I have some moths right now, because I just pulled a coat, a very old coat, out of the back of a closet to do a closet, like, swipe through. And this thing was covered in these things, where I was like, there's, there's only one thing it could be.

• 23:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Moths.

• 23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I tell you how satisfying it is? They have these like, they're plug-in sticky papers with like, a blue light, so all the bugs are attracted to it, and get on the sticky paper, fucking RIP, you know, sorry, Peta. It is so satisfying to pick that up and see all the little critters that were gonna fly in your mouth while you're sleeping, and instead-

• 23:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that aren't on you.

• 23:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's so good. It's so satisfying.

• 23:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's really good.

• 23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I don't think Peta extends their well wishes to the insect community. I really don't.

• 24:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the only animal I feel comfortable hate, not hating, is, and I love insects. Clearly, I kill them all. What else?

• 24:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Did we cover it?

• 24:11Georgia Hardstark?

  What else did we not talk about 2028?

• 24:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Victoria's Secret Body Spray. We should have done, you know what we should do on a fan call? Is a bunch of, if we can get ahold of them, 90s perfumes, identifying scent test.

• 24:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Mine was Apple.

• 24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Happy by Clinique.

• 24:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Happy by Clinique.

• 24:29Karen Kilgariff?

  We gotta put Poison.

• 24:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Poison.

• 24:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Christian Dior's Poison.

• 24:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 24:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Which, I have an amazing, I probably have told you this, but my friend Amy Doherty, that I went to high school with, got her knee wrecked in, like, when she was a senior. And she was going into the emergency room, and she was wearing Poison perfume. And the admitting nurse goes, what the hell are you wear- oh, take that off, never wear that again. And got like, super mad at her.

• 24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I love it. But like, also telling a nurse you're wearing Poison. She's like, what, like, what? That doesn't make any sense.

• 25:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Get out of here.

• 25:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Get out of here.

• 25:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It was the time for dramatic colognes and perfumes.

• 25:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Ginette, of course. So, oh, oh, I just remembered what it is. Sunflower.

• 25:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember Sunflower? That, I did that, and then I went to Happy. Oh, I would love to smell that right now. CK1, we have to do CK1.

• 25:21Karen Kilgariff?

  How many boys did you love, and then you realized you just love that CK1? That's all you really loved?

• 25:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Jupe. There was a guy, one called Jupe.

• 25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Jupe.

• 25:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And that one, that was-

• 25:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember the commercials for Jupe? Oh, my God, I have to look it up right now.

• 25:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's funny, and then we have to add, if we do that for the fan call, then we also have to add in Sweet Honesty, just like, as a wild card.

• 25:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes. As a smeller?

• 25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Molly, are you getting all this?

• 25:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's on, it's on tape.

• 25:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah, that's right. Someone's listening.

• 25:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you know? This whole time, for 10 years.

• 25:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 25:50Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's been recorded, yeah. What about Liz Claiborne perfume in the triangle?

• 25:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Liz Claiborne.

• 25:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That was mine for a long time.

• 25:57Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, we could go on and on.

• 25:59Karen Kilgariff?

  We've done it.

• 25:59Georgia Hardstark?

  We've done it.

• 26:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Jupe.

• 26:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, I think-

• 26:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's Jupe for Om as well.

• 26:04Georgia Hardstark?

  For him. Home.

• 26:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Home. Home Jupe and away Jupe.

• 26:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Home Jupe.

• 26:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 26:13Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, we've done it.

• 26:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's get into this.

• 26:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 26:15Karen Kilgariff?

  We're, we're fucking off on a live show? This is unprecedented.

• 26:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly. All right, well, let's get into the stories, shall we? These are good ones.

• 26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 26:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, just to get back to the live show, I remember this being a really fun show, and I have the best memories of, of Salt Lake City performing there.

• 26:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Salt Lake City was, I, I don't know what I was expecting, but they were so with us, like, right in lockstep with us.

• 26:41Georgia Hardstark?

  It was all college kids, so it was just like, and teachers and stuff, so it was so much fun.

• 26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It felt so good. No, I totally remember. The second I saw that it was the, that library story, I was like, oh, yeah.

• 26:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:52Karen Kilgariff?

  This was great. Okay. Well, we're gonna get into it now. Georgia had to go first this time, so this is Georgia's story about Ronnie Lee Gardner.

• 27:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I go first, right?

• 27:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you?

• 27:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Did you go first last, yes, yes, yes.

• 27:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I did, yeah, I went first today. We've actually just caught up with ourselves podcasting-wise. What?

• 27:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's today, today.

• 27:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's today in this world.

• 27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  All right. Could we have some oxygen roll down onto this, on the stage?

• 27:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So we heard that people have fainted on this stage before.

• 27:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 27:35Georgia Hardstark?

  My head is a little warm right now, actually.

• 27:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanna do it. Do it. Go down in the middle of this story.

• 27:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll do it.

• 27:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm here for it.

• 27:42Georgia Hardstark?

  What if I have to pee, and so I just pretend to faint, so I can go pee? And then come back?

• 27:48Karen Kilgariff?

  If you fake a seizure, you can pee during it.

• 27:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 27:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And, cause, yeah. That's what happens.

• 27:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 27:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Grand mal, grand mal, baby. Let it all go.

• 27:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, what if I actually have a seizure now, and everyone thinks I'm faking? Come fuck, this isn't gonna work.

• 28:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Just roll you up in this carpet.

• 28:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this is...

• 28:08Karen Kilgariff?

  If anything happened to us, we would just be taken off the stage and Celine would be right up here in one fucking second.

• 28:15Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like, "I actually happen to have a PowerPoint presentation." Of all the times they've been wrong.

• 28:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's exciting.

• 28:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. This is the story of the murderer, Ronnie Lee Gardner, Utah.

• 28:32Georgia Hardstark?

  What a dick.

• 28:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Is this guy a real dick?

• 28:36Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a real dick.

• 28:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 28:37Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. This guy, Ronnie Lee Gardner, he's born in Salt Lake City, Utah. You've heard of it. On January 16th, 1961. Great, there we are.

• 28:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Don't get defensive about it.

• 28:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm establishing a time and a place.

• 28:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I see.

• 28:53Georgia Hardstark?

  He is the youngest of seven fucking children. Not where you want to be.

• 28:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's rough.

• 28:59Georgia Hardstark?

  His father's a heavy drinker and when Ronnie's a toddler, he's like, "You know what? I'm gonna start over and try this again." And he leaves to start a new family. Which is like, "You gave it a shot and it didn't work, so maybe you shouldn't keep trying."

• 29:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, get out of the family business and go into like mattresses or something.

• 29:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, it's not working for you. You tried seven times. So, soon after that, Ronnie... Okay, Ronnie is an asshole. We hate him. However, he had really no chance not to be, based on his childhood. I mean, it's bad. Okay, let's do it. Soon after, little baby Ronnie is found wandering the streets in a diaper, malnourished.

• 29:39Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 29:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Just fucking walked away the way you used to do, but it was funny when you did it.

• 29:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Because I had like pigtails and we were in the country.

• 29:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And you were like supervised.

• 29:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's true. Lightly supervised.

• 29:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It was, you were 1970-something supervised.

• 29:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, which meant a truck drove by every once in a while.

• 29:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Which now would be child neglects, but back then it was how you parent.

• 30:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, wait, so how old was he when this happened?

• 30:04Georgia Hardstark?

  He was a toddler.

• 30:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. Yuck.

• 30:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Child welfare comes in and does a failed to care petition, takes him into custody, but later return him to his mother. And according to Ronnie, he was raised by an older sister and also he was sexually abused by his siblings. Sometimes he and his sister Bonnie would run away and seek refuge. They'd be like, "This home life sucks. Let's go somewhere safe." By the time he's 10 years old, Ronnie is addicted to drugs and he's allowed to have alcohol.

• 30:33Karen Kilgariff?

  10?

• 30:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Which like, my mom bought me a Zima to try when I was 12. So, "Mom, it's your fault." All of this is your fault.

• 30:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I made myself a wine spritzer when I was, I think I was in 7th grade. Me and my friend Holly drank our parents' liquor and talked on the phone one time.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 30:52Karen Kilgariff?

  We're just like, "Let's just do it. Who cares?"

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You thought you were so sophisticated? "I need a drink. I'm 7th grade."

• 31:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm the, I'm the youngest alcoholic in my school.

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Be proud of that. So Ronnie had this, still had a relationship with his father, but it was a really shitty relationship because his dad didn't think that Ronnie was his biological kid. So he, and he told his son and all his siblings that all the time, which is a great way to raise your kid.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Or not your kid.

• 31:27Georgia Hardstark?

  He was, he, so ran... Ronnie and his brother were arrested for stealing cowboy boots and taken to juvenile detention, which I think is something you probably would have done.

• 31:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Abs a hundred loop.

• 31:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Because cowboy boots.

• 31:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Technically, I did steal them off of my sister.

• 31:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I've told this story, but my sister, on her fifth, her 6th birthday, my Aunt Jean gave her a pair of red cowboy boots and when she opened the box, I screamed at the top of my lungs, put them on and would not take them off. And then I wore red cowboy boots for like two years straight.

• 31:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Finders keepers.

• 31:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Screamers keepers.

• 32:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So they go to juvenile detention and his fa, his stupid father comes and takes his brother home, but won't take him home because he's like, "He's not my son. I'm not bailing him out."

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's rough.

• 32:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So Ronnie's mom eventually marries another man and they have nine children.

• 32:22Karen Kilgariff?

  What in the...

• 32:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yo!

• 32:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Catholics? In Utah?

• 32:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Does that even happen? Okay.

• 32:33Georgia Hardstark?

  But Ronnie actually admired his stepfather because he had been in prison in the past and he used his stepsons as lookouts while burglarizing homes.

• 32:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Good. Yes. You've got to get a whole family, like a thing going. What is everybody like? Do you like to play Uno? Do you like to burglarize your neighbors?

• 32:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever it is.

• 32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Do it as a family.

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 32:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And then, uh, ba, ba, ba, ba, bibboop, then detention, institutions. All right, so by his teens, early teens, he had been in all these places locked up. While he's in the Utah State Industrial School in Ogden, Ronnie has visited...

• 33:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Pretty good school?

• 33:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's like a lockup. It's like a juvenile detention school. It's juvie.

• 33:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 33:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Ronnie's visited by a man that his brother is, Randy's living with and he's like, "Hey, this guy, this older dude is great. His name's Jack Stat. Let's, I'm living with him. You should live with him too."

• 33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Jack Stack?

• 33:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Stat. Like, stat.

• 33:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Immediately?

• 33:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Immediately. I just say the word. You know like the same word I just said.

• 33:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, stat, like stat.

• 33:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Like quickly.

• 33:45Georgia Hardstark?

  In 1975, so Ronnie moves in with Stat and Randy. And become, and this guy becomes an official foster parent to the boys. And so Ronnie, at the time, is saying that of his foster care, it's the most stable period of his life, saying, "Jack was a good man and he tried to help us out." Jack was also molesting them and that was still the best home life he's experienced. So it's just fucking sad.

• 34:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's terrible.

• 34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  He said, "I thought life was normal. I thought that was normal." And he said he also worked as a, he worked as a sex worker while living with Stat as well.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's in his teens?

• 34:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So then he meets, I don't know what year exactly, but he meets a woman named Deborah Bischoff, or a teen. I don't know how old she was either. I did my homework. They meet at an Salt Lake City apartment complex where his mom lives and they fall in love. Deborah describes Ronnie as very caring. "He never put me through, he never put me in the rough situations he was in throughout his life. He sheltered me from that stuff."

• 34:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like we gotta get our standards a little higher.

• 34:53Karen Kilgariff?

  He doesn't punch me in the face.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  He doesn't take me along with burglarizing. He keeps me out of that.

• 35:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Because of that, I love him so.

• 35:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. In 1977, they have a daughter together and in 1980, they have a son. But a month after his son is born, Ronnie's convicted of robbery and sent to the Utah State Prison. Want to see a picture of him?

• 35:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Good.

• 35:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 35:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I just could not put this photo up. He looks like Steven there.

• 35:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. Yes.

• 35:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Not what you expected, right? Neck tats and shit?

• 35:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That...

• 35:32Georgia Hardstark?

  But he's in court, so he's like dressed up nice.

• 35:34Karen Kilgariff?

  But also leaning on your hand, leaning on your fist with your chin like that is Stephen Ray Morris to a T.

• 35:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, it is!

• 35:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's like how he podcast records.

• 35:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And then he, and then he puts, he reaches his fingers out and then strokes his mustache like, "I'm not fucking even making this up. I'm not even making fun of it." I mean, I am, but I'm, but he really does it.

• 35:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And then we look over at him and we go to say one thing to him and he goes...

• 36:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven.

• 36:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven, we really like you.

• 36:03Georgia Hardstark?

  We do. Happy Valentine's Day.

• 36:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Happy Valentine's Day. Editing our terrible voices that you're so sick of.

• 36:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So sick of. He missed some pizza and these cheese mozzarella sticks.

• 36:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 36:18Georgia Hardstark?

  They're so bad. They came with ketchup.

• 36:23Karen Kilgariff?

  But the sticks themselves were perfect cylinders of mozzarella cheese that was frying.

• 36:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Frozen, like they came out of a box.

• 36:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Look!

• 36:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I'm not judging.

• 36:32Karen Kilgariff?

  What do you want? Fucking fresh mozzarella sticks? No fucking way. Frozen, old, from somewhere else.

• 36:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Ketchup.

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Hard to eat. That's what I'm looking for.

• 36:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I ate all of them.

• 36:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Ketchup. You're like, "Do you remember me? I was eating them alongside you."

• 36:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not judging these things.

• 36:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We got a salad and then I ate it with my hand.

• 36:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 36:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Why did I do that?

• 36:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's kind of how you wrapped up the meal. It's like how you let everyone know we're done doing this.

• 36:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, "I have to eat my quota of lettuce."

• 37:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Seven handfuls of lettuce and we're done with dinner.

• 37:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So that's Ronnie. In August of 1984, while in prison, Ronnie fakes an illness by vomiting. He didn't have a fake seizure.

• 37:18Karen Kilgariff?

  There's so many ways.

• 37:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, but he fakes an illness and he's transported to the University of Utah Hospital.

• 37:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that next door?

• 37:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's in the basement.

• 37:32Georgia Hardstark?

  He attacks the transportation officer at that moment and is like, "Fuck this, I'm out of here." He forces the officer to unlock his shackles by telling him, "I guess you know that, I guess you know if that doctor comes back, I'll have to kill you both." So he makes him take off his shackles at gunpoint. And then in the course of his escape, he hits the officer so hard that he needed wires to reconstruct his face.

• 37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 37:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so like, we're not on his side anymore.

• 38:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. All empathy has died.

• 38:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we had him. Cowboy boots is a forgivable thing, man.

• 38:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I was relating to him in a very serious way right up until you said the word "wire."

• 38:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Reconstruct, that's not...

• 38:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 38:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That never goes well.

• 38:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, just escape.

• 38:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Just fucking escape and let people have their face.

• 38:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Then, so he's like, okay, he got out of the hospital, but he's like, how do I get the fuck out of here? He finds a dude, a medical student, who's like, hey, I'm a medical student and I ride a motorcycle. And he gets on the back of the motorcycle with the guy, holds the gun to his back and is like, get me the fuck out of here, as if it's like fucking James Bond or some shit.

• 38:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. I have to say, I kind of like that because you know that medical student was a cocky motherfucker. So it's just like, yeah. How about if we hold the gun to you every once in a while, you son of a bitch?

• 38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And if nothing else, he had the coolest story to tell on Monday.

• 39:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 39:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 39:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally.

• 39:03Georgia Hardstark?

  He's, A, he's the cool doctor who fucking

• 39:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Rides a motorcycle.

• 39:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is like, if you're a doctor and you're doing that, you don't care about yourself.

• 39:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. You're, you're taking your own pills, for sure. Because you see what happens to people who ride motorcycles and fix them.

• 39:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Their faces need reconstruction.

• 39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a serious wire situation. And you're like, mm, I'm gonna get one too, though.

• 39:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. That's exactly right. Okay, so

• 39:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we've ripped doctors a new one.

• 39:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And everyone who came here on a motorcycle.

• 39:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's half the crowd is doctors, the other half is from a motorcycle club.

• 39:44Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, oh, you didn't know this university was a teaching hospital? Almost everyone here is in medicine in some way.

• 39:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, when I faint, nobody comes to save me. I'm faking it.

• 39:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Pop a wheelie, just like blaze on out of the parking lot?

• 40:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Later days. Okay, boop, boop, letter, okay.

• 40:10Georgia Hardstark?

  On August 11th, so he gets out of there and then after he escapes, he puts the firearm, gun, that was copied and pasted. The gun in and a note into a mailbox. And in it, he writes, here's the gun and the wallet, taken from the guard. So he gives the wallet back. He's like, sorry about the face. He didn't apologize for that. Taken from the guard, I don't want to hurt no one else, I just want to be free. So he returns and he's like, just not coming back.

• 40:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's kind of nice.

• 40:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, but then, wait.

• 40:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, please hold?

• 40:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 40:47Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, so he gets, he's, on October 9th, 1984, he's fucked up on cocaine and he goes to a place called Cheers Tavern. Totally forgot to see if it was still there.

• 40:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, like the TV show?

• 41:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you have a Cheers remake here?

• 41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 41:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it fucking, are Norman Cliff like sitting at the end of the bar? Animatronic Norman Cliff?

• 41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, why hasn't that happened yet?

• 41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, fuck.

• 41:17Georgia Hardstark?

  After party at Cheers.

• 41:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Cheers Tavern.

• 41:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god. Okay, Sam Malone's in the balcony, I'm so excited.

• 41:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And that, his mustache. So he goes there to rob the place, right? What? He had a mustache.

• 41:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Sam Malone?

• 41:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He had a mustache.

• 41:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you thinking of, you're thinking of Cliff Clavain, the mailman?

• 41:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he had one too.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Girls, don't do this.

• 41:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Where were we? All right, well, here, let's stop laughing because he's fucked up on coke, he goes to rob Cheers Tavern and he ends up shooting the bartender, Melvin John Otterstrom, in the face, killing him. And Ronnie makes off with less than a hundred fucking dollars, too. Then Ronnie goes to fucking Melvin John Otterstrom's funeral and pretends to be a childhood friend.

• 42:07Karen Kilgariff?

  What? What a dick.

• 42:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, that to me is, is like, crosses the line between like, you were fucked up and shot someone and you suck, but like, it's just so creepy.

• 42:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, no, that's super creepy, sociopath. Also, how is that the same guy that puts the wallet back in the fucking mailbox and is like, sorry for your troubles?

• 42:27Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's, I don't know.

• 42:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, wow.

• 42:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's a photo of, of, where did it go? Oh, that's not the right page.

• 42:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So like, basically, he went to this guy's funeral and like mingled enough so that he was telling people who he was?

• 42:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess. Yeah, this is Melvin John Otterstrom.

• 42:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Look how cute he is. And then, okay, so.

• 42:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, three weeks later, Ronnie gets captured at the home of his cousin. And once he's captured, Ronnie says that the shooting occurred because Otterstrom put up a fight, but investigators didn't find any evidence to support that, which I'm like, it's still your fucking fault, dude. Like, even if he put up a fight for his fucking life, it's still your fault.

• 43:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, you were on coke, you don't know what's fucking going on. Like, every, you, you're, no.

• 43:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Ronnie's held in custody, his getaway driver testifies against him. So during the trial for this murder on April 2nd, 1985, at the Metropolis, Metropolis? Metropolitan?

• 43:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 43:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck!

• 43:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You got it, though.

• 43:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Third charm, third try's a charm.

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Because it looks like Metropolis and then it changed, you know what I mean? Like, it could go either way in the beginning.

• 43:51Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's not, it's Metropolitan.

• 43:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You know the Metropolis.

• 43:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You know that word I've known for fucking the 37 years I've been on this planet that I just didn't see. Metropolitan Hall of Justice in Salt Lake City. So Ronnie gets a smug, someone smuggles him a fucking revolver. Revolver?

• 44:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 44:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Revolver, at his trial. And Ronnie attempts to escape. He fucking has his gun.

• 44:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Who did it?

• 44:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, we'll get there.

• 44:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, okay.

• 44:24Georgia Hardstark?

  He, he's, he has his gun. He's immediately shot in the chest by the guard Luther Hensley, but he continues on his fucking escape with a fucking gunshot wound to the chest.

• 44:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Was he still on coke?

• 44:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably.

• 44:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 44:41Georgia Hardstark?

  He wounds an unarmed bailiff named George Nick Kirk by shooting him in the abdomen and then ran into the courtroom archives where attorneys Rob Macri and Michael Burdell are. So they're just like in the fucking archives being like, boop-a-boop.

• 44:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Going like, we love law, let's look at some old ones.

• 45:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's see what we can find about this.

• 45:01Karen Kilgariff?

  These stories are incredible. Let's memorize every fucking word.

• 45:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, we don't even, we're not even on trial today.

• 45:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we're just loving law.

• 45:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So Garner, Ronnie comes in, points the gun at them and then he aims at Burdell, who'd been, he was there looking up shit for his pro bono work for his church. So like, you couldn't be there for like a more honest reason. And Ronnie shoots him in the eye and then runs outside of the building where he's surrounded by dozens of police officers.

• 45:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Police softeners.

• 45:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck!

• 45:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry. But that's a good one.

• 45:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Police softeners, it's like

• 45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, will I, but, for cops?

• 45:50Georgia Hardstark?

  He drops the gun and yells, don't shoot, I don't have a gun. But I'm like, neither do the fucking people you just shot, you dick. You know what I mean?

• 45:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, this might be a dumb question. The guy that he shot in the eye?

• 46:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You just keep jumping ahead.

• 46:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. No, no more. No more from me.

• 46:08Georgia Hardstark?

  He dies.

• 46:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 46:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Sorry.

• 46:13Georgia Hardstark?

  But the bailiff's Nick Kirk survives.

• 46:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:16Georgia Hardstark?

  However, he dies 11 years later and his family says it's from complications from the shot, the gunshot wound, which I'm like, yeah, you get shot in the gut, for the rest of your fucking life. So I think, fuck him. No, fuck Ronnie.

• 46:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, for sure.

• 46:32Georgia Hardstark?

  During a search of the courthouse, then, they find a bag of men's clothing in the basement under a woman's restroom sink. So someone had come in, stashed some clothing for his getaway.

• 46:42Karen Kilgariff?

  A woman.

• 46:43Georgia Hardstark?

  A woman. And then it's believed that the gun had been taped to a water fountain on the first floor and then passed to Ronnie as he was escorted into the courthouse in the underground parking garage. So they find, they find, they find his girlfriend, Darcy,

• 47:04Georgia Hardstark?

  unarmed and arrested about a mile away. And her sister, Karma.

• 47:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Karma?

• 47:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what it says. She, she's sentenced to eight years in prison for delivering the clothes and message in preparation for the escape attempt, but they don't know who actually gave him the gun. So she's, like, gets prison.

• 47:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 47:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Karma, she gets

• 47:27Karen Kilgariff?

  This girlfriend's sister goes to prison?

• 47:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 47:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's bullshit.

• 47:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So, uh, let's see here, I think I have a photo of, that's him with the beard on. It's like my dad, Marty.

• 47:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of looks like our therapist a little bit.

• 47:46Georgia Hardstark?

  He does!

• 47:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Didn't it?

• 47:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god, man! He totally looks like our therapist.

• 47:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's intention versus impact.

• 47:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I hear him saying, what I'm hearing your experience is

• 47:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you turn to Karen and say that?

• 47:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I hate, it's awkward.

• 48:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the best worst part of our therapy sessions. If we're like saying something meaningful and then he'll be like, will you turn to George and say that? And then I'm like, looking at her is the most repulsive thing in that realm. No, and I mean, like, well

• 48:18Karen Kilgariff?

  For myself.

• 48:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We have something to talk about next week, for sure.

• 48:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I should've said vulnerable.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Upsetting to me.

• 48:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You did, but you didn't.

• 48:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no! Strike 19.

• 48:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Well. Let's write that down.

• 48:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven.

• 48:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven, mark that moment.

• 48:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven, mark that moment. That's gonna be a minisode of just you saying that.

• 48:45Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that was the worst word I could've used. I'm so sorry.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's okay.

• 48:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I look pretty fucking ugly when I cry, so...

• 48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  No, internal feelings. Impact.

• 48:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Intent.

• 49:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's take one more look at him.

• 49:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Here we go. Calm down a little. Ren, help us!

• 49:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The grain of the temples.

• 49:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the thing is, I said this thing!

• 49:12Georgia Hardstark?

  What did you hear, Georgia, when you heard that? And then I'm like, "Well, I felt like I was about to faint, because it's... I have no air." Feel how warm I am right now.

• 49:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you?

• 49:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I really am.

• 49:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh, are you about to...

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm about to fucking faint.

• 49:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do this thing.

• 49:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, sweaty. Okay, boop.

• 49:27Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a viral moment waiting to happen.

• 49:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe I'm just embarrassed because of the word metro...

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  What did I call it? Metropolitan? I don't remember.

• 49:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't either. No one else does either.

• 49:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope. Thanks. I'm glad they didn't happen. Okay. And then, okay, so, when the... Okay, so, Otterstrom was... The guy in the bar was a mountain climber and a veteran of the 19th Special Forces Group of the Utah National Guard. And... And so is she.

• 50:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you for your service.

• 50:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And the other guy, our therapist, Burdell, was a Vietnam veteran, a former engineer, and a member of the Summum Church. Don't know what that is. And so, then, okay, so, they catch him back to... Even though he had a fucking shot in his chest, right? June 1985, he pleads guilty to the murder of Otterstrom. The jurors deliberate less than three hours and find him guilty of capital murder. And life without parole isn't possible back then. They didn't come around until 1992 in Utah.

• 50:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 50:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So, they... He's sentenced to death, making him then Utah's youngest inmate on death row. And later, the jurors say that if they had known about his troubled past and his childhood, they maybe just... If they could've given him life sentence, they would've, but, you know, they couldn't, as I just said.

• 50:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 50:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is, "Pay attention!"

• 51:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Stop making me repeat myself. Article.

• 51:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, here's a... Here's an insane thing, and this is fucked up. He's given the choice how he wants to be executed.

• 51:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, it's like, "What? Why do we get that choice?"

• 51:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Why is that... Just pick your dinner and be quiet.

• 51:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you gotta choose your dinner. But nope, he picks his... So, he says, quote, "I'd prefer to die of old age, Your Honor, but if that ain't possible, I'll take the firing squad."

• 51:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy fuck!

• 51:31Georgia Hardstark?

  He is not fucking around.

• 51:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck!

• 51:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and he's been shot once already, so he fucking knows what it feels like. Right? Like, that's the craziest part. That doesn't feel good, probably.

• 51:42Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 51:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I've never...

• 51:43Karen Kilgariff?

  He wouldn't wanna go back to that, and yet...

• 51:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And yet?

• 51:46Karen Kilgariff?

  He was just like, "Wow, that's nuts."

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So, since 1976, only two other people have been executed by firing squad of the United States, both in Utah. What?

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I wouldn't cheer for them.

• 52:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm kidding, I would. Gary Gilmore and John Albert Taylor.

• 52:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So, but this guy, Taylor, chose the firing squad to embarrass the state. But Ronnie said that he just didn't wanna attract attention. He just wanted... He just preferred that way to die.

• 52:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 52:15Georgia Hardstark?

  So, he got in a lot of trouble in prison on October...

• 52:19Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 52:21Georgia Hardstark?

  On October 20th, 1987. Okay, he's in the prison, the visiting area. There's a glass partition between him and the woman he's talking to. He fucking breaks the glass partition.

• 52:32Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 52:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Then they somehow gets over the partition, I hope, and he and the woman have sex. Like, through the broken partition while the fucking other inmates cheered and barricaded the doors.

• 52:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And, hold on! The fucking woman is his half-brother's wife!

• 52:55Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 52:57Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck?

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit, Utah.

• 53:00Georgia Hardstark?

  What is Christmas like? What is the Thanksgiving conversation that year?

• 53:04Karen Kilgariff?

  My first question is, "Let's talk about that glass."

• 53:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. I hope... That's why I'm saying I hope they jumped over it somehow and didn't have sex on it. That's the least of my worries.

• 53:15Karen Kilgariff?

  There used to be just a very thin pane of Tiffany-stained glass between the prisoners and their guests. That's insanity!

• 53:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, then the glass starts boning his fucking sister-in-law, and the rest of the prisoners are like, "Hell, yeah." And fucking crazy, right?

• 53:32Karen Kilgariff?

  We're... Like, that must've been like the hottest, like, prisoner phone call through that glass.

• 53:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Where they're like, "How was Thanksgiving? How was your fucking Thanksgiving?" Is the question I wanna ask you.

• 53:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yams? Were there yams?

• 53:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yams!

• 53:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, fuck, right?

• 53:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Literally.

• 53:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Then on September... Oh, yeah. Then on September 25th, 1994, so he's still alive, he gets drunk from alcohol that he had made in his prison...

• 54:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Toilet?

• 54:05Georgia Hardstark?

  No, thank God.

• 54:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Damn it.

• 54:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sink, which is like, "Yeah, right, that's what you told people." And he stabs another inmate, Richard "Fats" Thomas, with a shiv that he had made from a pair of sunglasses. Also, prisoners have sunglasses?

• 54:20Karen Kilgariff?

  You still gotta be cool.

• 54:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess. You gotta protect those peepers.

• 54:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. The UV rays up here are insane!

• 54:28Georgia Hardstark?

  They will get you!

• 54:29Karen Kilgariff?

  The air's thin!

• 54:32Georgia Hardstark?

  This dude suffers nine puncture wounds to the face, mouth, arm, and chest that are life-threatening, but he makes a full recovery.

• 54:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck!

• 54:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So, he's having a good time in prison, it seems like. He's...

• 54:43Karen Kilgariff?

  He's really criminaling it up.

• 54:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Okay, cut to June 18th, 2010. 2010, like the year that that murder happened.

• 54:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That fucking year.

• 54:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That's your favorite year for murder.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So sneaky.

• 54:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, here's him, like... Oh, that's the... Okay, well, Steven put these in the wrong fucking order.

• 55:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven?

• 55:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, now I'm scared that...

• 55:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Steven's fault you were pronounced metropolitan that way.

• 55:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Metropolitan... What did I say? I don't remember. Well, metropolin. Thank you for...

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Metropolin? It's so good.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, I don't wanna... I have a picture of him, like, back, like, in 2010, but I'm scared that Steven left one of those photos out. And I don't wanna go to your picture. Everyone, close your eyes real quick. I think you just put it in the wrong order. Should I do it?

• 55:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Who cares?

• 55:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't wanna...

• 55:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Who cares?

• 55:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, which part?

• 55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't even know what mine are. Just go ahead.

• 55:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, there he is.

• 55:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no, you've ruined my thing!

• 55:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, that's... That's Ronnie.

• 55:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Bring Ren back up. I have some complaints. That's Ronnie.

• 55:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Our therapist is named Ren, you guys? Okay, so, boop.

• 55:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I'm sorry, can you go back really quick?

• 56:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:00Karen Kilgariff?

  He looks like... He looks like Matt Walsh, the guy on Veep.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, he does look like Matt Walsh.

• 56:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at him. Think about it. Get HBO if you have to.

• 56:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 56:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Matt Walsh.

• 56:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Veep. All right, so, finally, in 2010, Ronnie is now 49 years old. It's been a quarter of a century that he's been on death row. Which is a long fucking time.

• 56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's 25 years.

• 56:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Finally, but he... I'm gonna ignore that, no. Ren!

• 56:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna ignore you.

• 56:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Finally, he's fucking... On June 18th, 2010, he's eliminated... Okay, wait. Let me tell you something.

• 56:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, I read that wrong.

• 56:53Georgia Hardstark?

  By 2004, Utah had eliminated the firing squad.

• 56:57Karen Kilgariff?

  There it is.

• 56:58Georgia Hardstark?

  There it is.

• 56:58Karen Kilgariff?

  There is someone in this audience who is not a fan of the show.

• 57:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 57:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't know what's happening and is like, this is fucking wrong.

• 57:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Karen Kilgariff?

  What's happening is wrong.

• 57:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm dizzy right now, so I'm gonna blame everything on that, this podcast.

• 57:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 57:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So Utah was like, maybe we shouldn't, let's eliminate the firing squad by 2004 as a method of execution, but convicts who were sentenced before that date are still allowed to have that option.

• 57:24Karen Kilgariff?

  If they want to pick it.

• 57:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, okay.

• 57:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So they're like, you can, like, it doesn't, it doesn't retroactively, they're not like...

• 57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  They're grandfathered into being shot.

• 57:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 57:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I get it.

• 57:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. What? You know you're in charge and you can change that, right?

• 57:38Karen Kilgariff?

  No. This isn't some weird movie where you have to get shot this way.

• 57:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So just after midnight, five anonymous executioners, they're behind a curtain and a ported brick wall, don't know what that is.

• 57:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Ported?

• 57:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Ported.

• 57:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Ported.

• 57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  One rifle had a blank round, so no one would be like, it was me, you know what I mean? They didn't know. He is pronounced dead at 12:17 a.m. And after he was executed, the daughter of one of the victims said, I hope my sister, who just passed away, and my father, and all of the other victims are waiting for his sorry ass, I hope they get to go down after him.

• 58:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 58:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you allowed to do that? Can you go back and forth?

• 58:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like we're, I feel like we're about to write the new Marvel movie.

• 58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll pull you out of hell, something like that?

• 58:34Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna go down after him.

• 58:36Karen Kilgariff?

  They're gonna go down.

• 58:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Beat the shit out of him.

• 58:37Karen Kilgariff?

  They're gonna beat him up in hell.

• 58:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. They're gonna be like, we're hanging out in heaven, it's great up here, let's do a fucking quick tourist.

• 58:43Karen Kilgariff?

  This is my laminate, I get to go back up, unless it's done.

• 58:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's beat his fucking ass.

• 58:47Karen Kilgariff?

  We're just gonna kick some asshole's ass really quick.

• 58:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and then we get to go back up.

• 58:51Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, I don't stay, I'm not staying here. I was good.

• 58:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I hope they get a go down after him.

• 58:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 58:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and that's the story of fucking Ronnie Lee Gardner.

• 59:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks.

• 59:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I told you he was a dick.

• 59:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So, it was a real, like, roller coaster, though, with that guy.

• 59:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It was.

• 59:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I don't know.

• 59:16Georgia Hardstark?

  You were here, you were there, you were here, then you were back there.

• 59:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's always very complex, these, with these stories.

• 59:21Georgia Hardstark?

  They are. You know, it's an emotional roller coaster.

• 59:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is.

• 59:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Of metropolitan size.

• 59:29Karen Kilgariff?

  This, almost the size of a metropole.

• 59:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I just start using that word incorrectly, because I just want to prove that I know how to say it.

• 59:36Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, looking at a charcuterie board, you're like, is this metropolitan?

• 59:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Cheese?

• 59:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Pull it out anywhere.

• 59:50Karen Kilgariff?

  We're back. Do you have any updates?

• 59:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I do. Ronnie Lee Gardner's brother, Randy Gardner, has been openly against the death penalty, especially by firing squad. He's partnered with Worth Rises, death penalty action, faith leaders, and community advocates to combat Idaho's recent pivot to making firing squad executions the state's primary method for carrying out death sentences, like...

• 1:00:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not good.

• 1:00:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That is...

• 1:00:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not good.

• 1:00:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That's aggro.

• 1:00:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Idaho is one of several states that has recently brought back firing squad executions amid drug shortages and legal challenges to lethal injections. That's not the solution, friends.

• 1:00:30Karen Kilgariff?

  What that is, is the fast track to fascist death squads.

• 1:00:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Amen.

• 1:00:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello, America.

• 1:00:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, you voted for this. Anyway, well, half of you, less than half of you did.

• 1:00:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Not these guys.

• 1:00:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Not us.

• 1:00:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Not these, not a murderino, for God's sake.

• 1:00:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Murdering is a part of the solution, everyone knows that. All right, well, let's get into Karen's story now, shall we? This is the Salt Lake City Library Hostage Incident.

• 1:01:01Speaker 06

  911, what's your emergency?

• 1:01:05Speaker 06

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  Hell, sin swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the places for Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:01:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality, because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

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• 1:02:27Karen Kilgariff?

  My, uh, story tonight is one of my classic, it was an episode of I Survived.

• 1:02:39Karen Kilgariff?

  As most of us do, I have all of mine on my DVR, and I was laying on my couch for 19 hours the other day and not taking care of things, and this episode rolled up and they were like, Salt Lake City, Utah. And then I was just like, my homework.

• 1:02:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and they're like, I have to sit here.

• 1:03:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:03:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the best.

• 1:03:03Karen Kilgariff?

  This is working. This just turned into borderline clinical depression, now I'm at work. That's how easy it is.

• 1:03:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the best.

• 1:03:11Karen Kilgariff?

  In the podcast world.

• 1:03:12Georgia Hardstark?

  When there's a podcast about the murder you're gonna do that week, and you're like, I gotta clean my bathroom, instead of just sitting in front of my computer.

• 1:03:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:03:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a weird way of enjoying myself.

• 1:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, ugh.

• 1:03:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Cleaning my toilet, okay.

• 1:03:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So, it is satisfying, though. Do you ever use one of those bleach, like, things you stick in the back of the toilet and then the water's just bleachy all the time?

• 1:03:33Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:03:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Get into it, they're the best. You know, every once in a while, you just have, like, a ring of mold, where you're like, what's coming out of me? This is, I'm disgusting.

• 1:03:43Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:03:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I mean, not like a, not crazy, it's just you see it forming, where you're like, is something off?

• 1:03:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Something's going on.

• 1:03:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Something's happening. Just get one of those fucking Clorox bleach pills, or whatever they're called.

• 1:03:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you take, you swallow it?

• 1:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:03:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you're like, got it, okay, I'll do it. Karen told me to take a bleach pill, and then I wouldn't have mold coming out of me anymore.

• 1:04:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It looks kind of like a big sweet tart.

• 1:04:09Georgia Hardstark?

  If you put it on some to-.

• 1:04:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really tart.

• 1:04:10Georgia Hardstark?

  An avocado toast. It's really delicious with a fried egg on top.

• 1:04:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Just get some, like, maybe a coconut oil on top, so it just absorbs the intense chemicals.

• 1:04:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Where were we?

• 1:04:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. No idea.

• 1:04:25Karen Kilgariff?

  We are...

• 1:04:26Georgia Hardstark?

  In the metropolis.

• 1:04:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Definitely hallucinating at this point. Okay, so, but then, so I watch it, it's great, then, good old Steve Ray Morris sends me a 2020 episode about the same story, which of course is more in-depth and actually has reenactors, which is the greatest. And so now I'm going to retell you a 2020 episode, like I used to retell you I Survived episodes. This is plagiarism.

• 1:04:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like a mashup.

• 1:04:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, that's right. It's like, it's like a layer cake, where my knowledge began on an episode of I Survived, folded in the 2020, and now this is just like, we're all at the campfire together. And I'm like, remember TV? Okay, listen to this.

• 1:05:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You eat, is the cake at the campfire?

• 1:05:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:05:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, good.

• 1:05:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. We get to have cake.

• 1:05:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And bleach pills. It's gonna be the best campout ever.

• 1:05:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It is the Salt Lake City Library Hostage Crisis. Do you remember?

• 1:05:30Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys had a library hostage crisis?

• 1:05:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Dude, did they fucking ever. First of all, let's just take a look at the Salt Lake City Public Library circa whenever Stephen found this picture. Let's see. This is the old branch, I believe?

• 1:05:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that correct? It's the old branch.

• 1:05:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It looks old.

• 1:05:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That's just the colors.

• 1:05:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so 70s. Look at that poor building on stilts. The building's like, what do you expect from me?

• 1:06:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You couldn't just put me on the ground?

• 1:06:05Karen Kilgariff?

  The architect's like, we're pinning all of our hopes on you.

• 1:06:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 1:06:10Karen Kilgariff?

  This says future learning.

• 1:06:15Karen Kilgariff?

  The Salt Lake City Public Library is a five-story building. So on Saturday, March 5th, 1994, it wasn't black and white, it was the early 90s.

• 1:06:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So it was like a sepia tone?

• 1:06:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of?

• 1:06:29Karen Kilgariff?

  With like neon spray paint, fake graffiti on the bottom?

• 1:06:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And tilted to the side?

• 1:06:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 1:06:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Very beach house. So there's hundreds of people at the library on Saturday. And people there for obviously all different kinds of reasons.

• 1:06:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Like what?

• 1:06:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know, reading, being quiet, sleeping.

• 1:06:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Free coffee, maybe?

• 1:06:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Do they serve coffee?

• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Some of them do. No, I bet they don't do that, right?

• 1:06:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably not here, probably not here.

• 1:07:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Because you don't want to spill coffee. Oh, sure. Free water? I don't know.

• 1:07:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and they're not allowed to have water? No.

• 1:07:10Georgia Hardstark?

  We're teasing you.

• 1:07:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Salt Lake City's like, "That's not us, man. That's not us."

• 1:07:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So, there's a couple there, Michael and Judith Greer. And they came down to the library because there was a Tibetan mandala ceremony being done that day. And that's, you know, that's your favorite.

• 1:07:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's my favorite kind of ceremony.

• 1:07:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Of all library ceremonies. Top.

• 1:07:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys need to try one, one day.

• 1:07:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Top three.

• 1:07:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Top three.

• 1:07:42Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's the Tibetan monks who are putting colored sand, blowing, they're like scraping and blowing colored sand into this almost as beautiful as this rug design at the library. Well, how fucking badass is that?

• 1:07:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:07:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Those are the kind of events that they have.

• 1:08:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's culturally open to everyone.

• 1:08:03Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, "Check out what happens."

• 1:08:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Check, is that the ta- "Check out what happens." Oh my god, who's a librarian here? Use that tagline. Take this, take it to your meeting on Monday. You have a meeting on Monday? Take it. It's yours.

• 1:08:18Karen Kilgariff?

  To the Librarians' Union meeting? Take that down there.

• 1:08:22Georgia Hardstark?

  You're gonna get a raise.

• 1:08:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet they've never used the pun "check it out" at the library before. I bet it's never happened with a big check mark.

• 1:08:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So the Greers are there watching this beautiful sand ceremony. And also, there's of course Gwen Page, who's been a librarian. Is Gwen, Gwen, are you here? Gwen, Gwen was in The I Survived and in The 2020. So you know she is a key fucking player in this story.

• 1:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  She is, just bouncing around.

• 1:08:51Karen Kilgariff?

  She is a lifelong dedicated librarian in the most hushed-toned way you can be. You can fucking see her, readers on a chain. She's like, "I'll tell you where the book is this time, but you have to find it for yourself the next time." You know Gwen?

• 1:09:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so she's, you know, reforming the Dewey Decimal System.

• 1:09:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Librarians like to get up to. And one of her coworkers says, "You gotta go see the fucking mandala ceremony before it ends. It's amazing." She's like, "You're so right." So she hauls ass on up, "I don't know what we're doing."

• 1:09:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you, is this word for word, the 2020 episode?

• 1:09:40Karen Kilgariff?

  This is how they say it on the 2020.

• 1:09:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh shit, look at this. There she is.

• 1:09:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Gwen!

• 1:09:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Gwen, Gwen.

• 1:09:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Gwen.

• 1:09:53Georgia Hardstark?

  In nice mauves, a nice mauve.

• 1:09:56Karen Kilgariff?

  She's doing jewel tones because she knows that that can act like makeup sometimes for you. That does, a maroon jacket does the work for you.

• 1:10:06Georgia Hardstark?

  But you gotta have a pop of color.

• 1:10:08Karen Kilgariff?

  But you've gotta get a good, some nice hot blue, electric blue in there.

• 1:10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Love her.

• 1:10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You still love to live.

• 1:10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Librarian to the hilt.

• 1:10:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Librarian. Stephen paused it right when she was going, "Shh, shh."

• 1:10:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She does that throughout the interview. Just shushing cameramen, shushing interviewers. I'd fucking love that so much.

• 1:10:38Karen Kilgariff?

  The sound guy's like, "I can't, I can't with this librarian. I'm getting a lot of shushing." Okay, so as Gwen heads up to watch this amazing, cool thing that I would love to see in real life and made me cry when I saw it in the thing.

• 1:10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  She notices, of course, because observe and report librarian style. She notices there's this scraggly guy standing by the reference desk. He's wearing a backpack, he looks real like edgy. And she clocks it, but then she's like, "I gotta go see the mandala ceremony." So she just shushed him really hard and kept on moving. Okay.

• 1:11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  She put her shush scent on him to like mark him for later.

• 1:11:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It was just a little yellow chalk on his pant leg. Come back and shush him later, about a half an hour.

• 1:11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna reveal all the library secrets tonight.

• 1:11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, they're so mad right now.

• 1:11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So many. Shh. So.

• 1:11:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So she passes this way, this is the way they set it up on 2020. I bet you they didn't all pass like it was a very well-choreographed play, but. But she passes him and then the scraggly guy turns to the man standing next to him and pushes a manila envelope like onto his chest and goes, "I need you to mail this, mail this for me.

• 1:12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Give this to the papers. Have a nice life. Mine's gonna be short." And then he turns around and pulls out a gun. And then he pulls out a curling iron.

• 1:12:20Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:12:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he jumps on a table and he yells, "Everybody, listen up. This is a bomb." He holds the curling iron up. "This is a bomb." "Nobody move. If I let go of this switch, this whole place blows up."

• 1:12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 1:12:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So it was what they call a dead man's switch. He's literally holding open a curling iron. So if he lets it go, that's when the bomb goes off. So that, if anything happens to him, everybody dies. That's like his insurance.

• 1:12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think everyone like laughed at first because they're like, "Look at, he's, he's jo- that guy's joking."

• 1:12:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I can see the cord of that curling iron, sir. That's, curling irons aren't bombs.

• 1:13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I would know.

• 1:13:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 1:13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:13:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So, and then he's, and he's kind of like, obviously, people, you know, the gun's like this, the curling iron's up like this. Everybody, probably 10 feet and back, are just like, "Goodbye." And they piece out of there as quickly and in as organized fashion as possible.

• 1:13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sure.

• 1:13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Down four escalators.

• 1:13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 1:13:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Five-story library.

• 1:13:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the worst escape room is an escalator.

• 1:13:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because it's just so slow. You have to stand there, escaping, escaping, escaping. Almost there. We have almost escaped. Music, really nice muzak playing behind you.

• 1:13:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Watch your shoelace, and then someone's like, "My shoelace is untied."

• 1:13:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the only way anybody gets caught, is if their shoelace gets stuck in it.

• 1:13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I just do want to say that, so the bad guy, this is the reenactor from 2020. There is, Stephen could find no pictures of the actual bomber, Clifford Draper.

• 1:14:11Karen Kilgariff?

  But this guy, this reenactor actually does a very good job. He has very large eyes, so he's scary. They have a lot of like brown eyeliner around his eyes. And he's doing a very realistic, crazy person who's, who, you know, somebody that's like on the edge, that's in public, but like people aren't noticing him, but you're like, but there is something up with that guy. And then boom, he's up on the table.

• 1:14:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And, you know, then there has to be like whispering to yourself and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, "Oh, this is gonna be cheesy as fuck." Well, it wasn't. This guy did a fucking great job. His name.

• 1:14:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you IMDb him?

• 1:14:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I did. His name is Michael B. Woods. And you've seen him, yes.

• 1:14:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Ow, my teeth. He's cute.

• 1:14:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You've seen him on Empire. You've seen, he's had a two- two-episode character arc on Chicago P D. He's one of your favorite actors. He's not, he's not just a crazy guy in the library reference desk with a curling iron. And he really fucking held this 2020 together. It was all him.

• 1:15:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Emmy.

• 1:15:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So much pressure.

• 1:15:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Can they do, can they do an Emmy from before? What do they call it when they're like?

• 1:15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Retroactive Emmy? Metropactic?

• 1:15:25Georgia Hardstark?

  A metroactive run Emmy.

• 1:15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  A metro practice.

• 1:15:29Georgia Hardstark?

  A metro.

• 1:15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they do those.

• 1:15:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 1:15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially for reenactors. Okay, so anyway, keep your eye peeled for Michael B. Woods in the future. I'm just saying, I'm calling it now. He's just got range, people, range.

• 1:15:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And eyeliner looks great on him.

• 1:15:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I like when you can do the whole eye. You can surround the whole eye and it still doesn't look small.

• 1:15:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:15:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that means you have great, big eyes.

• 1:16:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I keep hitting my face with the microphone.

• 1:16:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You're a drunk.

• 1:16:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So, uh, I told you about the dead man's switch and I'm not gonna say it again. Meanwhile, uh, over in the sheriff's administration building, sheriff's office administration building, which was nearby, um, there is a man named Lieutenant Lloyd Prescott who's gone in in the 2020. He goes, "I went in to use the computer on the weekend."

• 1:16:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:16:35Karen Kilgariff?

  To use the computer.

• 1:16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  What did he look up?

• 1:16:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It was just like a ton of solitaire.

• 1:16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's in using the computer, um, in basically kind of an empty building and this guy runs in from the library and he's just like, "Hey, anybody, can somebody help me?" And, um, so Lloyd Prescott gets up and is like, "Did you guys call the cops?" And they're like, "Yes." But there's a guy with a live bomb in the library and he's taking hostages. And so Lloyd Prescott grabs his gun.

• 1:17:08Georgia Hardstark?

  He put it on the seat next to him.

• 1:17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, he's in a car inside the office.

• 1:17:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me just grab this. Or like at the computer next to him. He had like rested it.

• 1:17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. He just had it right against the mouse.

• 1:17:25Karen Kilgariff?

  He grabs his gun. In the 2020, he knocks his coffee cup over onto his badge. That didn't fucking happen. They're just trying to show you he's a sheriff. And he runs into the library where hundreds of people are running out. Lloyd Prescott runs in.

• 1:17:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how, yeah.

• 1:17:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's how you do it.

• 1:17:46Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a cop. That's right. That's how you know he's a cop. They run at the danger. And they have guns. So, as he's running in, and I also, this seems a bit fateful, but, and it so it could have been for the show, but basically there, he runs into the guy that Clifford Draper had given that Manil envelope to to say, "Go mail this for me." And the guy stops him and says, "Don't go in there. There's a guy with a bomb and a gun." And he says, "I know, I'm a police officer. Is anybody hurt?" And the guy says, "I don't know, but he did give me this envelope to mail." And so Lloyd goes, "I will take this from you. Thank you.

• 1:18:28Karen Kilgariff?

  You might want to go ahead and use the elevator real, I mean escalator real quick and get out of here." Damn, that could have been so funny.

• 1:18:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And he, so, um, meanwhile, back upstairs, they have, they're having this conversation. And, uh, the bomber is telling people, um, that he wants all the people who have basically been frozen in this area in front of him. He starts looking at people and going, "Go into that conference room." And picking people out specifically. So Michael Greer, the guy that is from the very beginning, who's, it was his idea first to go watch the Mandela ceremony with his wife Judith. He looks at Michael Greer and says, "You go in," but not Judith.

• 1:19:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:19:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So he has to go into this conference room.

• 1:19:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And leave his wife behind?

• 1:19:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:19:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:19:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And, uh, so he goes in and, uh, several other people, obviously. And then he tells Gwen, "Go get me 16 people. I want 16 people in that conference room."

• 1:19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:19:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And Gwen's like, "Sounds great."

• 1:19:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But in her mind, you know, the wheels are turning. So she goes into this conference room and she's like, and it's the, there's a meeting of the Toastmasters in the conference room. The people who, they do speeches and they practice speeches.

• 1:19:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you weren't, no, I don't, what?

• 1:19:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's a real thing.

• 1:19:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a club you can join.

• 1:19:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, like a toast?

• 1:19:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  A Toastmaster.

• 1:19:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you think bread toast?

• 1:19:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We had been talking about avocado toast 10 minutes ago. I thought you were go, I thought that that's what you meant.

• 1:20:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Toastmasters, we're so fucking good at making toast.

• 1:20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's our new Food Network show.

• 1:20:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Just tons of toast.

• 1:20:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Toast.

• 1:20:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Evenly colored, perfectly buttered, crust to crust.

• 1:20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Jam or fucking almond butter?

• 1:20:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't know and it's none of, it's not up to you.

• 1:20:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's none of your business.

• 1:20:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We're the Toastmasters, motherfuckers.

• 1:20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's a room filled with toast.

• 1:20:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And Gwen goes in, bold as brass.

• 1:20:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And Gwen's like, "You guys, let me quickly interrupt your dumb fucking meeting. There's a guy with a bomb out there." And that's not a word for word. And in this room, luckily, there was a, there was a different door than the, than the entrance door. There was like a weird back door. So of course they're like, "Let's Toastmaster the fuck out of here." And they open that door. People start going out, out. So all these people are escaping. And then Clifford Draper, the bomber, runs in. He's like, "Stop, shut that door." So, um, they, he shuts the door. They end up, uh, a total of, I believe, nine, 10 people altogether. So, um, end up in the room. He doesn't get his 16.

• 1:21:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I, I do agree is a better number, but it's, it's just how it worked out. So, um, two, page 11.

• 1:21:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So, uh, he makes them all sit at the conference room table, but he makes them turn their chairs out so that they can't look at each other. And he keeps screaming, "Don't look at me," um, over and over. So every, you know, and he, and he's just doing this with a gun the entire, just constantly, bomb gun. So everyone is just, uh, obviously insanely freaked out.

• 1:22:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So, uh, our guy Lloyd Prescott walks into the conference room.

• 1:22:08Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:22:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So there, he had called, I think he had called like two other women in, like, "Get in here, you have to get in here right now." And Lloyd Prescott cuts them off, walks into the room and, um, holding up the Manila envelope and goes, "What am I supposed to do with this?" And then he turn, and then he shuts the door behind him so that the people who are supposed to go into the room, don't go in. He cuts them off. And, uh, and then of course, the bomber's just like, "What? Who are you?" And he's freaking out or whatever. He's like, "I said I was, that was supposed to be mailed." And he was like, "Could you stop pointing that gun at me? I just, I don't even know." And he's just playing it real low key. So he's not coming in in any way cop style. He's like, "Someone just handed me this envelope. What am I supposed to do?" He pretended like he didn't know why he was in there.

• 1:22:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, insane. So, uh, so then, um, the bomber tells Gwen, the librarian, to go get him a phone. And if she's not back in 15 seconds, he'll kill somebody.

• 1:23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  15 seconds for a phone in 1994?

• 1:23:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Yes.

• 1:23:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not enough time.

• 1:23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very high stress.

• 1:23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, cuz there's no cell phones, kids.

• 1:23:13Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you're gonna need a phone. She's, Gwen immediately had to think of, "Where's the one phone that has the longest silver cord?"

• 1:23:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  "That I can just run across this fucking library with."

• 1:23:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:23:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She does it, of course.

• 1:23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Gwen. She nails it.

• 1:23:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You're right. I don't know why I doubted her.

• 1:23:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you can't.

• 1:23:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit, sorry.

• 1:23:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Do we need to look at her again?

• 1:23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no.

• 1:23:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Why would you? Oh, you want to?

• 1:23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Gwen!

• 1:23:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So relaxing.

• 1:23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Oops. Uh-oh.

• 1:23:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's there forever. Now, okay. This is how stressful it is. Okay.

• 1:23:56Karen Kilgariff?

  All right.

• 1:23:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, uh, uh, okay.

• 1:24:05Karen Kilgariff?

  End of that page. The pacing of this is amazing. So, oh, he said, he tells, Lloyd tells the bomber he's an accountant. Um, and he's just kind of like playing it small.

• 1:24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like, "I spill coffee sometimes."

• 1:24:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just, I'm a numbers guy anyway. I don't know how to mail things.

• 1:24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, of course, he's wearing a, like a jacket, like a windbreaker, and he's got his gun hidden underneath it. So then, uh, Draper tells everybody that he's gonna barricade the room. He has a lady shut the curtains. He does this weird thing where he keeps having people do things for him. He's not doing it. Probably cuz he's holding on fucking curling iron.

• 1:24:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:24:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So he, he asks Gwen what time they entered the room. Immediately Gwen's like, "10 to 10." And then he sets a timer for 72 hours. So he has like this amount of time that he, that they're going to do this, which is a long fucking time.

• 1:25:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And in the reenactment, that's when he says, "My name's Clifford Draper. Let's get some attention." I doubt that happened.

• 1:25:12Karen Kilgariff?

  In reality, Clifford Draper was a veteran and he was a paranoid schizophrenic who had gone off his meds long ago.

• 1:25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:25:20Karen Kilgariff?

  He was originally from Arkansas, but now he lived in a boarding house that was like down the street from this library.

• 1:25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So he gets Gwen to call the police and explain to the police what's going on. So she says, "I'm being held hostage in the Salt Lake City Library with nine other people." And the police say, "We want, uh, to connect you. We want him to talk to the hostage negotiator." And Draper goes, "Fucking batshit. No, no, no, hang up the phone, screaming, screaming." Then he makes Gwen give the phone to Michael Greer and he says, "Now you're my phone man now." So he makes Michael Greer call the local classic rock radio station, Z-93.

• 1:26:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 1:26:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. For real. Cuz he's gonna take it to the people. He's not fucking around with the police anymore.

• 1:26:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Utah?

• 1:26:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Z-93, it's the station everyone at work can agree on.

• 1:26:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:26:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Cuz everyone loves Journey. So, Michael Greer has to call the radio station. It's the weekend DJ. So it's somebody, um, who's a part timer. She's just in the reenactment. She's got headphones on. She's like kicking back.

• 1:26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  The most relaxed DJ you've ever seen. And she picks up the call and live on the air, Michael Greer has to say, "I'm being held hostage at the Salt Lake City Library and our hostage taker wants his demands read on the air." And the weekend DJ goes, "I don't have time for this," and hangs up the phone.

• 1:26:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, who wouldn't? You're like, "Fuck you, teenagers."

• 1:26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You goddamn teenagers, making my DJ life a living hell.

• 1:27:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, no, we won't play Devo. This is Z93. Classic rock, Led Zeppelin and Led Zeppelin.

• 1:27:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Classic rock block.

• 1:27:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, rock block.

• 1:27:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Rock block.

• 1:27:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a two for Tuesday.

• 1:27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. But it's a weekend.

• 1:27:24Karen Kilgariff?

  This was Saturday.

• 1:27:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the Saturday one. Several songs Saturday.

• 1:27:31Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 1:27:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Did it.

• 1:27:33Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 1:27:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Nailed it.

• 1:27:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And if you're a DJ, you can take that.

• 1:27:35Karen Kilgariff?

  You can have that, yes. For a nominal fee.

• 1:27:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, across town. Trisha Griffith, who is the program director at Z93.

• 1:27:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Trisha.

• 1:27:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Trisha, a young lady in the 90s, directing some radio programs.

• 1:27:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl.

• 1:27:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Do it. She's at breakfast with her friend.

• 1:27:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh. We call it brunch. Was she having toast?

• 1:27:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It was brunch. This was a toast situation. She herself was, had already taken the toast masterclass.

• 1:28:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. So she was like whipping up four different kinds.

• 1:28:07Karen Kilgariff?

  She was like, I'm gonna have one slice sourdough and one slice rye. It's how we do it. I am so high off this thin air, I can't believe it.

• 1:28:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucked up.

• 1:28:18Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the greatest. I totally wanna move here, alright? So anyhow.

• 1:28:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll talk about it after.

• 1:28:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so she is, she gets the call. The weekend DJ calls her boss after she hangs up and goes, "Hey, so this just happened and now I have a weird feeling about it. I don't think I did the right thing."

• 1:28:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I might have fucked up.

• 1:28:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I think, uh, I think I might be on, I think I might be on probation. I'm in serious DJ trouble right now. Trisha drops her fork loudly, runs out of the brunch.

• 1:28:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Spills her coffee.

• 1:28:59Karen Kilgariff?

  But takes her toast.

• 1:29:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:29:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Boom.

• 1:29:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Important things.

• 1:29:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, we're cutting back to the conference room now. And this gets super dark. The bomber passes around a legal pad and has everybody write their name down and the name of their next of kin.

• 1:29:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 1:29:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's doing a lot of shit like that where he's basically like, "Here's how I'm gonna kill you." This is the, these are the different, like, none of us are getting out of here. A lot of shit like that. Also, there's a woman in, in the conference room with everybody who's a diabetic. And she's starting to feel the effects. She has to take insulin five times a day.

• 1:29:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:29:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And she tells him, "Look, I'm a fucking diabetic." She didn't say fucking. "And, uh, I have to take my medicine." And he was like, "Well, if you didn't bring your medicine, then that's on you." And someone else in the room is like, "She could die." And he's like, "Well, then that's just how it is." And then he goes, "Or maybe I'll trade her out for a cop. I've always wanted to kill a cop." Mm-hmm. And Lloyd Prescott's like, "Gooool."

• 1:30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Still an accountant.

• 1:30:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Loving them numbers.

• 1:30:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Too bad I'm an accountant.

• 1:30:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, April 15th.

• 1:30:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Hate you so much, tax day. Anyway, what are you guys talking about? The police? Meanwhile, over at the SWAT Central.

• 1:30:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Metropolitan SWAT offices.

• 1:30:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Uh, the SWAT Sergeant Ken Hanson is prepping for the Hosky Rustage. So the-

• 1:30:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Hosky Rustage?

• 1:30:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we get some oxygen, please? Are you okay?

• 1:30:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Mommy? Mommy? The Hosky Rustage? This is just a little Hosky Rustage. Me and, and-

• 1:30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Here she goes, here she goes now.

• 1:30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Shh, let me say a secret.

• 1:31:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Just starts giving delight to me.

• 1:31:03Karen Kilgariff?

  D. Holy fuck.

• 1:31:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Now you know how I feel all the time. Isn't it the worst? That's why I was so hot. I kept saying stupid shit.

• 1:31:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It really sounded so right.

• 1:31:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:31:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like it's always been Hosky Rustage.

• 1:31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That was fun for me, 'cause it wasn't me.

• 1:31:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't feel good when it's not you. Ugh. What a goddamn relief.

• 1:31:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Woo.

• 1:31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:31:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Deep breaths.

• 1:31:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Please get serious.

• 1:31:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Deep breaths real fast? Is that how you? Right?

• 1:31:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Shallow, fast breaths?

• 1:31:41Georgia Hardstark?

  If you just stand up real quick.

• 1:31:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And screaming?

• 1:31:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile.

• 1:31:51Karen Kilgariff?

  This made me laugh so loudly when I thought, watched it today. So at one point, Draper looks at everybody and goes, "I want all of you to strip down."

• 1:32:01Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:32:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Strip down naked.

• 1:32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gonna be that kinda party.

• 1:32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And this one girl, who has been super like in the reenactment the whole time, she's been like, "What?" She's always the girl they cut to when they wanna show people being upset or worried, like, "Why?" She has like long hair, very like, you know, like down, you know, the girl next door face. And when he says that, she turns around and goes, "I am not doing that."

• 1:32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That's where she puts her foot down.

• 1:32:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he didn't make them do it.

• 1:32:32Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:32:34Georgia Hardstark?

  She should have been like, "And you're letting us out."

• 1:32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I cannot tell you how much I would have been that girl. And I would have been like, "Definitely shoot me. I am not taking my pants off." In any way at the library with all these nice people around me.

• 1:32:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 1:32:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I am not doing that.

• 1:33:00Karen Kilgariff?

  You with your guns and your bombs. So awesome. So then he just makes them take their jackets off.

• 1:33:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Why? Oh.

• 1:33:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Because she is not doing that.

• 1:33:10Georgia Hardstark?

  But he has a gun under his jacket.

• 1:33:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly right, Georgia.

• 1:33:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I've been listening.

• 1:33:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So, you, like Gwen, have been listening.

• 1:33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So he makes Gwen, of course, go around and take everyone's jacket from them and then put them in the corner.

• 1:33:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Gwen has to be the coat girl now?

• 1:33:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Gwen is.

• 1:33:29Georgia Hardstark?

  The coat check girl?

• 1:33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Gwen's like his gopher a little bit. He keeps looking to her. And I'm sure she's sitting there, 'cause she's probably the whole time looking at him like, "Is this really what you're doing now?" So he's like, "Fine, you go get the coats." So as she's walking around the outside of the table, when she gets to Lloyd, Lloyd gives her the old, "Mm-mm." Like just a real quick, quick ding ding with the eyes. "Not my coat." And she doesn't miss a beat. I encourage everyone in your life, please always look for small, tiny clues that people are trying to fucking give you. Because what is worse than being the person or experiencing the person where you're like, "Don't take my coat." And they're like, "Why don't you want me to take your coat?

• 1:34:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't you just hand me your coat?"

• 1:34:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man. We've all been in those situations where it's, "Don't ask me why I don't wanna take my shoes off in your house. My feet smell. I don't wanna have to tell you that."

• 1:34:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. If I'm telling you something but my eyes are wide, catch on, goddamn it. Okay. That was just a sidebar of advice. Screamed at you angrily. Just how I do it. I am not doing that.

• 1:34:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So she passes Lloyd. Then Lloyd says to Draper, "Can I leave my coat on? I'm cold." And Draper, of course, is like, "If I take your coat off!" And loses his shit. And so he does it. He takes his coat off in this way where he's able to pull, real quick, pull his, uh, his shirt bottom. I was gonna say shirt sleeves.

• 1:35:09Georgia Hardstark?

  What else is there?

• 1:35:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Barely caught myself.

• 1:35:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Untuck his shirt.

• 1:35:12Karen Kilgariff?

  The tail of his shirt.

• 1:35:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 1:35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Pull it out. Shirt tails. That's right.

• 1:35:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Pulls that out to cover the gun.

• 1:35:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 1:35:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Right in time. Okay, so, and meanwhile, no one in the room knows that he is a cop.

• 1:35:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:29Karen Kilgariff?

  No one, everyone is like, "We're here with this crazy guy and super Gwen in the library and then that's about it."

• 1:35:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And an accountant. And that's all we've got.

• 1:35:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And that really cold accountant. What's his, why would he risk all of our lives because he's cold? I hate his guts.

• 1:35:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What a dick.

• 1:35:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:35:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So then he, he makes everybody, uh, Draper makes everybody read his list of demands. He hands them out and he goes like, "This, you, this is why I'm doing this. And if you read this, now you'll understand." And then everyone gets it and is like, "Oh, great, great. A little, a little reason here." Uh-oh. Because the letter says, among other things, that he will not negotiate. He demands to be reinstated into the National Guard.

• 1:36:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Woo!

• 1:36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  He wants a military doctor stripped down to his shorts to come and bring him sedatives and methamphetamine.

• 1:36:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, that's not a good mix.

• 1:36:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's like, um, it's a, it's a version of a speedball.

• 1:36:37Karen Kilgariff?

  But at the library. He demands to be paid in gold and platinum bullion, which is badass.

• 1:36:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a finance, it's actually, one of the accountant was like, financially, that's actually a scam.

• 1:36:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't go wrong with platinum bullion. It's really, you can take that anywhere. And then he demands to be flown to New Zealand and he wants a full presidential pardon from Bill Clinton. So it, it really bums everybody out as they read it.

• 1:37:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, over at Z93.

• 1:37:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Cutting back because Trisha Griffith has arrived. And she's like, "I'm gonna be here now. The weekend DJ doesn't have to deal with the hard shit anymore."

• 1:37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Cut the Blues traveler. This is fucking happening.

• 1:37:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like harmonica.

• 1:37:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Hostage.

• 1:37:31Karen Kilgariff?

  So she sits there and at the like DJ, uh, deck. She sits there and in just in case the hostage, the...

• 1:37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  The guy.

• 1:37:43Karen Kilgariff?

  The bomber.

• 1:37:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Calls back, which he does.

• 1:37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 1:37:47Karen Kilgariff?

  He's screaming, "Do not hang up on me."

• 1:37:52Karen Kilgariff?

  "Put me on the air or everybody dies." So she had the weekend DJ go call the cops and be like, uh, you know, "He called once before, what do we do?" or whatever. And the cops had told the weekend DJ, tell, do not put him on the air. But of course, Trisha's talking to him and she's like, "No, he's going to kill these people. There's no doubt in my mind." So she was like, "I'm going to put him on the air because I don't want these people to die."

• 1:38:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Trisha making decisions.

• 1:38:18Karen Kilgariff?

  She was, she was going full program director on his ass. But before she did that, which is great, she thought, "I'm gonna try one thing." So she says to Draper on the phone, "The button to put you on the air is broken and the engineer won't be back till Monday." And he buys it.

• 1:38:38Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:38:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Because we all know that there's a strip of buttons that light up. And if that one is broken, the air isn't there.

• 1:38:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And the engineer is gone.

• 1:38:50Karen Kilgariff?

  The engineer is skiing again, as he does. So he buys it. He tells her they have less than 72 hours or everyone dies. Then he makes Michael Greer call, call back and read the list of hostage names and next of kin. So that when, uh, he kills everybody, she can notify the families.

• 1:39:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus. Oh, sorry, you guys like him.

• 1:39:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you say you guys like him?

• 1:39:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I totally like him.

• 1:39:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know, he's just nice and he listens.

• 1:39:39Karen Kilgariff?

  He likes all the same bands as me.

• 1:39:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Like Blues Traveler. Makes the best toast.

• 1:39:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, have you ever had Jesus's toast? It's very small and round.

• 1:39:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And there is...

• 1:39:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It tastes like glue.

• 1:39:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a reference.

• 1:39:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I get it.

• 1:39:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm making a Catholic reference.

• 1:40:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Body uh huh.

• 1:40:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Body uh huh? Uh-uh.

• 1:40:03Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it has the face of Jesus burnt toasted into it.

• 1:40:08Georgia Hardstark?

  He has his own, never mind.

• 1:40:10Karen Kilgariff?

  He burns his own face into his own toast. God bless him, literally. All right.

• 1:40:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So Clifford is telling Trisha this super fucked up, very upsetting news. And Trisha gets this idea and she says, "Clifford, can I ask you a question?" And he says, "Yes." But he's screaming it or something, waving a gun at the phone. And she says, "What can I play for you?"

• 1:40:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? So smart. It's so smart because music heals the world.

• 1:40:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 1:40:46Karen Kilgariff?

  All right. Pull out an acoustic guitar. Play 7 Nirvana song. He fucking asks for more deep cuts for them to stop playing the same songs all the time. And he asks for less commercials.

• 1:41:01Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:41:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:41:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the most reasonable answer I've ever heard.

• 1:41:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's what we all want from Z93.

• 1:41:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Even, never, even off your meds, you're like, "Here's what's going wrong with your fucking radio station."

• 1:41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I can see this and I'm holding a curling iron in the library. Okay. Meanwhile, on the other side of the conference table. Sue Ellison, the diabetic, is now going into severe, uh, she's entering into diabetic shock. Everyone in the room is saying, "Please let her go." He says, "No way."

• 1:41:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And, oh, so he's, uh, Draper's getting more and more agitated. This is, this is over hours and hours and hours of dust. And at one point, he is, he keeps switching hands because he's holding the curling iron open. It's like he has to grip it. He's been gripping it for hours.

• 1:41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like so bummed that he made that his...

• 1:42:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, couldn't he have just said that, you know, you plug it in or something?

• 1:42:05Karen Kilgariff?

  How about a straightener?

• 1:42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:06Karen Kilgariff?

  They just sit there.

• 1:42:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So he asks Michael Greer, he's like, "Can you get the duct tape out of my backpack? I, I need to fix the bomb." So everyone's just like, "Okay." So they're putting pieces of duct tape over the bomb. And, uh, as, um, oh, and then he, so then he, the next plan is he goes, "Somebody's gotta die. They need to, the police aren't responding the way I want them to. We have to figure out who has to die." So he tells Gwen to go get this rope. He says, "I'm gonna cut this rope into, into all these different lengths. Whoever gets the shortest piece dies."

• 1:42:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:42:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So Gwen talks about it and she's like, "She took forever to walk over and get the rope."

• 1:42:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:55Karen Kilgariff?

  She was the slowest walker of all time. And then as she, uh, she, oh, she goes to Clifford and says, um, "I need, how am I gonna cut this? I don't, I can't cut this, there's no scissors in here." So he puts the gun down to get the knife out of his backpack. Yeah. And the second he does that, that's when Lloyd knows this is his fucking time to shine. He pulls that fucking gun. And so, sorry, but really quick, they talk about this, which I love. He had taken some kind of a bomb class. So he knew if the bomb did go off in the room, if everybody was under the table, they could probably, because it's the size of the bomb and, you know, he's talking about the type

• 1:43:40Karen Kilgariff?

  that it probably was, that bombs like that, they go off up. So if everyone was under the plane of the table, there was a less chance that they would all be injured.

• 1:43:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:43:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So he fucking stands up when he sees that his hands are between weapons, fucking stands up and screams, "Sheriff's office, everybody get down." All the people in the chairs fucking hit the deck and he shoots Clifford Draper five times.

• 1:44:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry.

• 1:44:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That was so exciting. I was so excited.

• 1:44:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You like went into your own mic.

• 1:44:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Table.

• 1:44:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I thought it was your tube.

• 1:44:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no.

• 1:44:25Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that was the best visual, like, oh.

• 1:44:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Clunk. Yes.

• 1:44:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Does that, did that scare everyone?

• 1:44:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it was really good sound effects.

• 1:44:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Right as, when, so the SWAT team was right outside the conference room door. They were like, all in it. But they were just sitting there like, you know, they don't want that fucking dead man detonator thing to go off. So when they hear the gunshots, they shoot up at the top of these glass, uh, windows that go into the conference room. These fucking windows shatter. This, there's like 19 SWAT people in the room. And when that dead man detonator hit, it didn't fucking work because he had put too much duct tape on it while he was trying to fix it. So by some fucking miracle of real life God, that bomb did not go off.

• 1:45:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:45:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And everybody lives.

• 1:45:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 1:45:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Except for the terribly mentally ill man who got shot five times.

• 1:45:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:45:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Died on the way to the hospital. Sorry. I should have, I'm sorry I said everybody.

• 1:45:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we take that, our cheer back? I mean, listen.

• 1:45:41Karen Kilgariff?

  All the hostages? Shit.

• 1:45:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Gwen still works at the Salt Lake City fucking library.

• 1:45:56Georgia Hardstark?

  After party at, with Gwen.

• 1:45:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And she says this amazing thing at the end of 2020. She was like, "When bad things happen, you can either be a victim or you can be a survivor. And I love the library and of course, I still work at the library." It was just like, fucking Gwen and your jewel tones kicking down that knowledge. Lloyd Prescott, at the end of that 2020, was asked why he went into that conference room at such grave danger to himself. And he said, "In the police force and in the military, it's your job to risk your life. That's why we have cops." God bless his soul.

• 1:46:34Karen Kilgariff?

  There he is.

• 1:46:40Karen Kilgariff?

  More jewel tones.

• 1:46:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Lloyd.

• 1:46:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Lloyd.

• 1:46:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Man.

• 1:46:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey Lloyd.

• 1:46:50Georgia Hardstark?

  What if he and what's-her-face had fallen in the...

• 1:46:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Mary. Gwen and Lloyd across the table.

• 1:46:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That moment where he was like, "Don't take my jacket." She's like, "Fine, but I'm coming back for you later." Boom.

• 1:47:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That's my lifetime movie. I'll write it when I get home.

• 1:47:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:47:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:47:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That was amazing.

• 1:47:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:47:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking...

• 1:47:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I was with you that entire time. That was fucking insane. I hit my microphone hard.

• 1:47:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how good it was. You know, I'd like to thank I Survived and 2020, the people who actually wrote that.

• 1:47:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, now you're one of them.

• 1:47:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:47:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates?

• 1:47:43Karen Kilgariff?

  There are no updates on this story, but we can go back into the episode and we can listen to a hometown, Salt Lake City hometown from an audience member.

• 1:47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Real personal story too. This one was heart wrenching.

• 1:48:40Speaker 06

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• 1:49:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we have time?

• 1:49:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I think so.

• 1:49:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Sit down. Everyone, sit down. We have rules first.

• 1:49:38Karen Kilgariff?

  There's rules and you need to listen. You were talking the whole time, so don't put your hand up.

• 1:49:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I got eyes like you wouldn't believe. If you would like to tell us your hometown this evening, there's a couple of things to keep in mind. You can't be so drunk that you don't know your own story anymore.

• 1:49:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It says Utah. They're not, they can't.

• 1:50:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not.

• 1:50:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 1:50:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd like to make assumptions.

• 1:50:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Make you feel alienated.

• 1:50:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Everybody in the room wants it to be local, so don't come up here with your Mississippi bullshit.

• 1:50:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It's what we want, what everyone wants.

• 1:50:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Utah, local to Utah would be great.

• 1:50:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You know you can't read, but we say that anyway. No, no, don't be reading off of any kind of piece of paper. We just want to talk to you and we want you to chat it up. It's a great idea to keep it to, in your mind, like maybe two paragraphs, because you have to remember that if you get picked, everyone else in the room hates your guts. All right, do your thing.

• 1:50:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we get the lights up for a second?

• 1:50:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa, whoa.

• 1:50:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, this, this blonde person. Yeah, yeah. This blonde lady.

• 1:51:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl, she's the girl. That's this.

• 1:51:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi.

• 1:51:08Karen Kilgariff?

  You can bring those lights down now, thank you.

• 1:51:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, it's Holly, everyone.

• 1:51:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, what's your name?

• 1:51:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Holly. Hi, Holly. Hi. Holly, come stand in the word scary. You have to stand on the carpet or it's bad luck.

• 1:51:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we have. Isn't it gorgeous?

• 1:51:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You got to take it home with you tonight. Hold the microphone to your thing and there's your pretty necklace. Okay.

• 1:51:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Holly, where are you from? Ogden, Utah. Oh, I talked about that place. It's a real place. Oh, my God. And first I just have to tell you, you got to go see the new library.

• 1:51:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. Is it the best? What, so can you just give us a quick rundown about the new library?

• 1:51:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Super modern, glass, wood, elevator.

• 1:51:49Karen Kilgariff?

  All the elements.

• 1:51:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Books.

• 1:51:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Escalators?

• 1:51:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No escalators.

• 1:51:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Good.

• 1:51:54Georgia Hardstark?

  We're done with those.

• 1:51:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Better for escaping.

• 1:51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 1:51:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it nearby?

• 1:51:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's on 400 South.

• 1:52:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:52:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Great, perfect.

• 1:52:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like two blocks, five to 20 blocks that way.

• 1:52:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we'll walk. You know what? Let's go fucking see Gwen tomorrow.

• 1:52:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:52:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell her she's on.

• 1:52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  2,000 people.

• 1:52:15Georgia Hardstark?

  She's on the list. I notice her last name is Paige. Books, pages.

• 1:52:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck, you're killing it already, Holly.

• 1:52:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks.

• 1:52:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm going to tell you, you have nothing to worry about.

• 1:52:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I took a Xanax. What'd you say? I took a Xanax. She took a Xanax.

• 1:52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  No alcohol, just a Xanax.

• 1:52:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Pushed by my doctor. Amazing. I took a Xanax for the whole time. Damn it. Do you want to, you want to be the third member of this podcast? I've been dying. I mean, I'm like, can we be best friends? Yeah, sure, we are.

• 1:52:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's already happening.

• 1:52:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm there. Okay, what's your hometown? It's really sad, so let's bring it down from where we are.

• 1:52:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, why'd you say that Xanax thing then?

• 1:53:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry.

• 1:53:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I live in Wyoming right now, but I used to live in Sand Peak County. It's in the center of the state. Okay. And I went back a year ago to visit my family, my sisters-in-law, and a friend of mine who had moved across the street from my sisters. So, we had planned to have dinner on Thursday night. We got home, her lights were all off, so we're like, we'll hit her up on Friday. That night, we were out chain smoking.

• 1:53:34Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:53:35Georgia Hardstark?

  What? Chain smoking.

• 1:53:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Chain, what brand?

• 1:53:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's kind of embarrassing, but it's Camel Crush.

• 1:53:42Karen Kilgariff?

  What's that mean?

• 1:53:44Georgia Hardstark?

  You crush it and then it becomes fucking menthol.

• 1:53:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's great.

• 1:53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's amazing.

• 1:53:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Menthols cigarettes will kill you immediately.

• 1:53:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I'm going for.

• 1:53:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm ready to go. No, I'm just kidding. They're delicious, they're fresh.

• 1:53:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They're not delicious.

• 1:54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Awesome.

• 1:54:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So, my friend, Kami, she was engaged, and that night, we were outside and it's wildlife outside. There's cows and chickens and cats and all sorts of animals. And we heard, we heard a lot of noises and we thought it was just the wildlife and it wasn't. It was, it was our friend Kami and she, she got murdered by her fiance. And it was about 100 feet from where we were and we were right there and I had just started listening to your podcast and I was probably listening to it while it happened

• 1:54:45Georgia Hardstark?

  because I had gone to sleep at about midnight and she, the police think it was about 1:00. And it was one of the hardest things in my life, but you know, good things happen, people survive, and Kami was a wonderful person and you know, he, her fiance was arrested the next day. He told them that she had been with us and had been in a car accident and walked home and then got in the bath and he got up in the morning and she was dead. But he had done it with a hammer and a shovel. Just, it was bad, but. They knew that, right? Like they knew he was lying? Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:55:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we had to answer her some questions, but it was tough. Yeah. But, and I still feel really guilty about it, but. You shouldn't feel guilty. I mean, I get it. But yeah.

• 1:55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  How, sorry, how long ago was this?

• 1:55:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It'll be a year in March.

• 1:55:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:55:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's tough.

• 1:55:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but I love you guys and. I love you guys.

• 1:55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You get to smoke as many menthols as you want to.

• 1:55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm changing smoking back to Wyoming.

• 1:55:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But.

• 1:55:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone's going to have a menthol cigarette tonight in memory of Kami, right?

• 1:56:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you have to. Kami, we smoked together. We took a smoking cessation class together, so we quit smoking together and then we started up again. Whoa.

• 1:56:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And you guys crushed it. Oh, my God. We crushed it. Thank you so much for being brave and coming up and.

• 1:56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:56:24Georgia Hardstark?

  You're amazing.

• 1:56:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Holly, everybody.

• 1:56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Holly.

• 1:56:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 1:56:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:56:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're back, Karen. You want to give us any updates on the story?

• 1:56:41Speaker 06

  There are some updates, actually. Kami May Edmonds' fiance, Anthony Christensen, pled guilty to her murder and obstruction of justice in 2020, and he did admit that he beat her to death and tried to stage her death as a car crash. In March of 2020, Christensen was sentenced to two terms of five years to life and a third term of one to 15 years in Utah State Prison. Kami's mother, Tammy Coats, later started the Kami May Foundation to raise awareness about domestic violence. And you can find out more about the Kami May.

• 1:57:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Foundation at Cammie May Foundation dot Weebly dot com.

• 1:57:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Okay, so let's end this episode that was originally called Live at Kingsbury Hall in Salt Lake City by naming it something we would name it today. For example, maybe we would call this episode.

• 1:57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  The Zombie Contingent.

• 1:57:32Georgia Hardstark?

  The Zombie Contingent. I wish there was just a zombie. Where's the zombie section at our live show?

• 1:57:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like, yay.

• 1:57:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, we'd have to call it The Smell of Raves, of course.

• 1:57:44Karen Kilgariff?

  The Smell of Raves.

• 1:57:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a conversation that needs to continue. Screamers Keepers, of course, that was a good one.

• 1:57:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Shush Scent.

• 1:57:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And of course, Better for Escaping.

• 1:57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Always. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Let's go back to 2018 Salt Lake City and we'll say goodbye from Kingsbury Hall.

• 1:58:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Salt Lake City, thank you for having us.

• 1:58:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Thank you for.

• 1:58:16Karen Kilgariff?

  What's that a picture of?

• 1:58:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It's you.

• 1:58:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it a picture?

• 1:58:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a painting.

• 1:58:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess it's too late to ask that question.

• 1:58:25Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll ask tomorrow night.

• 1:58:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm high as a goddamn kite. I don't know what's happening. This was such an amazing show, you guys. Thank you for being so smart. Thank you for being fucking so on it that you sold out tomorrow night's show and demanded this show. What a fucking honor.

• 1:58:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy.

• 1:58:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's.

• 1:58:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we appreciate your support so much. We can't believe we get to do this with our lives.

• 1:58:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's insanity.

• 1:59:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're not just high in saying that. We really mean it.

• 1:59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's sincere.

• 1:59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And we love the community that you guys have built and we're so stoked that we get to be part of it. So thank you guys so much for, for supporting us.

• 1:59:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Being badasses.

• 1:59:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so fun. It's so fun to watch you guys come out here. It's watch, it's so fun to watch you guys meet each other and become friends with each other and like build a community where we can talk about the hardest fucking things that happened to people in the world and still be okay. I think that's kind of a big thing that happens with this podcast that we didn't plan. And it had not, of course, we were just like, let's read true crime stories to each other. And something really beautiful and magical is happening with you guys and you're making it happen. So thank you. It's an honor to us, what you guys are doing, honestly.

• 1:59:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So stay sexy.

• 1:59:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And.

• 1:59:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get married.

• 1:59:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie? Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 2:00:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 2:00:12Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 2:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 2:00:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 2:00:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 2:00:37Speaker 06

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• 2:01:18Speaker 06

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