Rich Roll on Mastering Pain, Overcoming Addiction & Living With Purpose (Fan Fav)

This is a fan fav episode. Are there times when we can get a better result by letting go? What role does pain tolerance play in addiction? Is a plant-based diet really that restrictive? For endurance athlete, author, and podcaster Rich Roll, these kinds of questions are just the tip of the iceberg. In today’s episode of Impact Theory, Rich and Tom explore the landscape of ideas ranging everywhere from spirituality and his experience with 12 Steps, all the way to plant-based protein, vegan bodybuilders, and everywhere in between. So whether you or someone you love is struggling with addiction, you’re feeling out of touch with your purpose, or you simply want to know where to find the best vegan cheese on the planet, then this episode is for you. ORIGINAL AIR DATE: 3-29-22 SHOW NOTES: 00:00 | Introduction 00:56 | Spirituality and Trusting Your Intuition 08:16 | Solving Problems by Letting Go 21:21 | The Importance of Creative Constraints 27:26 | Hubris and Self-Understanding 47:53 | Relapse and Dealing With Failure 58:36 | The Path to Recovery From Addiction 1:05:36 | SriMu and Rich’s Experience With Veganism 1:17:52 | Plant-Based Dietary Choices and Longevity Follow Rich Roll: Website - https://bit.ly/1lTmUBQ Twitter - https://bit.ly/1Rpn19v YouTube - https://bit.ly/2ROrM2G Instagram - https://bit.ly/2PuIWAU Facebook - https://bit.ly/2A9vDAB LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/2A9Pbop What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here: If you want my help... STARTING a business:https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20showjoin me here at ZERO TO FOUNDER https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show SCALING a business:https://tombilyeu.com/callsee if you qualify here. https://tombilyeu.com/call Get my battle-tested strategies and insights delivered weekly to your inbox:https://tombilyeu.com/sign up here. https://tombilyeu.com/ ********************************************************************** If you're serious about leveling up your life, I urge you to check out my new podcast,Tom Bilyeu’s Mindset Playbook https://open.spotify.com/show/47VE90Cittmo6TGGFqg2xf —a goldmine of my most impactful episodes on mindset, business, and health. Trust me, your future self will thank you. ********************************************************************** Join me live on myTwitch stream https://impacttheory.co/4fitmnJ. I'm live daily from 6:30 to 8:30 am PT athttps://impacttheory.co/4fitmnJwww.twitch.tv/tombilyeu https://impacttheory.co/4fitmnJ ********************************************************************** LISTEN TO IMPACT THEORY AD FREE + BONUS EPISODES on APPLE PODCASTS:http://apple.co/impacttheoryapple.co/impacttheory http://apple.co/impacttheory ********************************************************************** FOLLOW TOM: Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok:https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=enhttps://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter:https://twitter.com/tombilyeuhttps://twitter.com/tombilyeu YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeuhttps://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

  Let's talk about the moment your side hustle becomes a real business. Now, I see way too many founders stay stuck running their business like it's a hobby, and then they wonder why nothing ever feels real. It doesn't feel real because it's not. I've helped thousands of entrepreneurs build real businesses through Impact Theory University, and the first step in the path to building a legit business is registering it. And Taylor Brands will help you do just that in a few clicks. An LLC, a limited liability company, is an official business structure. It's inexpensive to form and very simple to maintain. It's how you open a business bank account. It's how customers know they're dealing with a real company. And Taylor Brands doesn't stop at the filing.

• 0:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Their dashboard tracks what comes next based on what your business actually needs. So EIN number, registered agent, licenses and permits, bookkeeping, business banking. I tell every founder the same thing. Just make it official. Click the link in the show notes to check out Taylor Brands and get started on your business today. This is a paid advertisement.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  A snarl in the woods. Ancient forest spirits nip at his heels. He can outrun a force of nature on foot. He needs an instant power machine built for the wild. The only escape is in. The Toyota BZ Woodland. Off-road handling, all-electric power. Leave evil in the dust. John Cho stars in Camping. Face the wild. Test drive Toyota's new all-electric family at your local dealer. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  The more we learn about addiction, the more we realize that it isn't just about the drunk in the gutter or the guy who can't pull the needle out of his arm, that on some level, we're all prey to some form of addictive compulsive behavior patterns that are interfering with us aligning our values with our actions.

• 2:06Tom Bilyeu?

  Rich Roll, welcome back to the show.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  So happy to be here, man. Thanks for having me today.

• 2:10Tom Bilyeu?

  Dude, for sure. So it's always tough to interview somebody like you where I literally just made a list of all the things we could cover and it is a very broad swath. So for the thumbnail, it's tough. I don't know where this will end up going, but I want to start with spirituality. I heard you make a statement sort of as an offhanded comment to answer somebody else's thing and I was like, whoa, I really want to know more about that. You said that your spiritual life is the most important thing. And one, I would love if you could just define, what do you mean by spirituality and why is it so important?

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Wow, coming out of the gate.

• 2:47Tom Bilyeu?

  Hot.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  With a rock. Yeah. How to articulate that? I mean, the first thing I would say is that for me, there's nothing that isn't spiritual. Like, I don't look at life in a binary dualistic way in the sense that there is the, the non-spiritual life and then my spiritual life.

• 3:11Tom Bilyeu?

  Now, when you say non-dualistic, though, are you taking a very, like, there is the mind? So traditional dualism, for those that haven't heard that phrase, you've got the brain and then you've got the sort of spiritual being and the two are not the same. That would be sort of classical dualism.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 3:26Tom Bilyeu?

  Is that what you mean?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Correct. So for me, it is non-dualistic. It's all one thing. That's how I think about it. And I don't think about spirituality in any kind of specific dogmatic sense. I suppose I would define it as an awe and wonder that anything is possible and that there is much that we don't understand. I think we're hubristic as human animals to believe that we are capable of understanding everything and we've

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Come quite far in terms of trying to understand space and the brain and what's at the bottom of the ocean and how our bodies work. But I think we've really only tapped the surface of that. And I like to live in that space of awe and wonder. And my life and many of the big decisions that I've made, I think, were predicated on a certain kind of non-definable faith in possibility. And the biggest leaps that I've made in terms of personal growth and in terms of my career,

• 4:41Speaker 02

  the beautiful things that I've been able to accomplish, I think, are part and parcel attributable to having an interior spiritual life.

• 4:52Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so there's a lot there. So I'm really intrigued about the hubris, but I want to come back to that for a second because I'm not sure hubris, hubris can manifest negatively, but also it's the thing that makes us explore space and the bottom of the ocean and all of that. But before we go down that path, so I, give me more about, as you explore spirituality, is it sitting in the the wonder? Is it, is it communing? And communing might be the wrong word. Is it communicating and connecting with a higher power that you personify? Like, what does that mean exactly?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  It's definitely connecting with a higher power, but not in any kind of personified way.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  It doesn't hold any kind of specific characteristic other than that there are forces that exist beyond our limited senses that I think are at play. And I dig it. Yeah, I dig it. Is it completely true? Can I prove that? No, I can't, you know? But I know that in times of pain and struggle and confusion in my life, when I have arrived at a place, having done a lot of interior work and am in a position where I feel like I can trust my instincts,

• 6:18Speaker 02

  taking leaps of faith and trusting in some kind of belief outside of myself, that I will be guided, has served me well.

• 6:30Tom Bilyeu?

  That's interesting. Okay, so do you believe that to be literally true? In that something is actually guiding all of us, or at least you?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  I think that there is a, there is

• 6:43Speaker 02

  a guiding force that is available to all of us when we are

• 6:49Speaker 02

  committed to the path of self-actualization and self-understanding, that we can then intuit and tap into perceptive abilities that can serve as a reliable compass for our decision-making.

• 7:06Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, this is some heavy shit here, Rich Roll.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  But it's all very ephemeral. It's not something I can say, this is how it works. It's just something that has shown up in my life time and time again, and I've seen it.

• 7:18Tom Bilyeu?

  As intuition?

• 7:19Speaker 02

  As intuition. You know, I would say, you know, when we spoke last time, we talked about my story, and I've had highs and lows, just like everybody has. And have been in positions where I felt hopeless or financially destitute. And those were moments that really tested not just my own capabilities and capacity, but tested that faith. And trusting in that and believing in myself and this kind of purpose-driven instinct that I had led me to make decisions that didn't make any sense logically or rationally, and yet over time have proven to be correct.

• 8:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so quickly define correct.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  I mean, right now I live a life beyond my wildest imagination. I feel very privileged to be able to do this thing that I do that's similar to what you do, provide for my family doing it, be remunerated handsomely for doing it. And it's enriched my life in so many ways and given me purpose and fulfillment and a sense of direction that feels very meaningful, not just to me personally, but to a lot of other people. I'm sure you get messages every single day from the people that enjoy your show and have found meaning in it and, and direction. And that's a really great feeling, and that's something I never thought that I would have. And when I set out on this sort of quest,

• 8:48Speaker 02

  There was no logical indication that I would ever get there. It didn't make any sense. This couldn't be a vocation. Everybody who was in my circle, who kind of operates more rationally, was saying to me, you need to go back to the law firm, or you need to, you know, make these more prudent choices because you're being irresponsible. But I felt guided in a, in an intangible way and convicted that I was doing the right thing, even though it was confusing. And there were plenty of times when I wanted to jump ship and do the prudent rational thing, because that's how I was raised and that's what my education was all about.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  But having kind of come out the other side of it, I have a deeper appreciation for,

• 9:39Speaker 02

  for, how do I say this? The beauty in not always knowing. And then back to, again, this sense of awe and wonder in what we don't truly understand.

• 9:52Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so now I want to tease those out. So I often in my life feel like I'm stepping into the void and that because I'm in the void, I can't tell if I'm falling, if I'm flying, if I'm floating. I actually don't know. And it's part of the reason that hubris to me is not always negative is the thing that keeps me from panicking because I don't know if I'm falling, floating, or flying, is that I can figure it out. And I don't feel that I'm being guided in any way, shape, or form. I don't feel that there's anything that has my back. There's clearly something I don't understand. You need only ask yourself, I don't believe in God, but let's say that God existed,

• 10:36Tom Bilyeu?

  what existed before God, right? And so you end up, my brain at least, breaks at a moment where I cannot conceive of something from nothing. And I also can't conceive of Perpetual something. So I can't wrap my head around it.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  So what I would say to that is, what I hear and what you just said is a desire or a need, a deep seated need to believe that you can control outcomes in your life. And what would it feel like for you to let go and just surrender? And have you had, have you had the experience in your life where you have been up against the wall and you threw up your hands and said, I don't know, I'm letting go of this. I'm just going to be in a state of presence and allowing and then had that situation work out optimally without you having to force it or compel it with your self-will?

• 11:33Tom Bilyeu?

  Be thoughtful in how I answer that. So I think that being open to whatever is going to transpire, opportunity, connection, all of that stuff is a very wise thing to do.

• 11:51Tom Bilyeu?

  So from that standpoint, that is a tool in my tool belt.

• 11:57Tom Bilyeu?

  But when I think about it, I don't think about it as surrendering to something else that will then present something to me and to, because that to me-

• 12:06Speaker 02

  But to surrender without expectation or attachment. Not conditionally saying I'm surrendering because I trust this other thing is going to take care of this, but what does it feel like, or what would it feel like for you to completely release the chains?

• 12:25Tom Bilyeu?

  To what outcome?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  To any outcome.

• 12:29Tom Bilyeu?

  No, that doesn't make sense to me.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Possibly even a bigger, more beautiful outcome. Let me explain it.

• 12:33Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm always open to a bigger, more beautiful outcome.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  So I came into this understanding through, through recovery from alcoholism. And I'm somebody who grew up- In a very rationalist household with, you know, academically minded parents and I was blessed with the best education that anybody could could buy and studied science and the humanities and all of that and and my mind operated in a very pragmatic way and then alcoholism really took me down some very dark paths as we talked about last time and when I finally reached my nadir with all of that and realized that I couldn't continue to live that way I

• 13:15Speaker 02

  had to let go of all of the ideas I had about how to solve this problem because that wasn't working allow other people to help me and when I entered this 12 step community it was impressed upon me that I needed to surrender and let go which to me felt like giving up that's not in my DNA I don't give up I can use my brain to solve this problem but all indications were that my brain was actually making it worse and the real solution required me to let go of those ideas and allow other people to help me and to surrender to the possibility that my you know

• 13:56Speaker 02

  this idea that my best thinking had landed me in this desperate place and that the solution lie in in in surrendering to a sense of powerlessness which again was very difficult for me to crack and took me a long time to understand but ultimately what it means is that or what it led me to more fully appreciate is that there really are so few things that we can control in our lives and I think as human beings we want to control our environments out of fear of death or whatever it is but when you really think about it all you can control is the thoughts

• 14:38Speaker 02

  that you entertain and how you respond to the world around you it's very what you put in your mouth for example but beyond that you can't control other human beings how they react to you what's happening in the world around you and I think that causes a lot of pain and suffering and consternation for people and letting go of all of that and really focusing on the very few things that you can control you can find a certain level of peace and I think with that You you create fertile ground to grow a healthy dose of humility. And you know, you being a guy who's sort of a master of the universe and is trying to solve problems with his mind and has created this incredibly beautiful life of largesse

• 15:21Speaker 02

  doing that, it's probably a harder pill to swallow. So I'm interested in like how that lands for you.

• 15:29Tom Bilyeu?

  There's a reason Quince sells cashmere for $60, and it isn't the cashmere. It's real 100% Mongolian cashmere. It's the same stuff luxury labels charge a fortune for. Quince just works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So there's no need for a markup and no logo tax. The $60 goes to the actual sweater, not the fancy name on the tag. That's why everything they make runs 50 to 80% less. And it's not just the cashmere. I ordered a few things myself, their fleece joggers, a couple of their tees, which I wear obsessively. First thing I noticed was the quality. Soft, well-made, built to hold up. They make down jackets and wool outerwear now, too.

• 16:13Tom Bilyeu?

  So upgrade your stuff to things you'll actually wear. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Impact Theory. It's the best way to support the show. Let's talk about something that genuinely keeps me awake at night. My team at Impact Theory gets hit with phishing scams from bad actors pretending to be me all the time. And they keep getting more sophisticated attacks with details specific enough to look legit. AI has made a lot of things possible, including scams like this.

• 16:57Tom Bilyeu?

  But AI still needs raw material. It gets it from data brokers who sell your name, address, phone number to anyone willing to pay. Incogni goes after that supply. They handle removal requests across 420-plus harmful broker sites.

• 17:14Tom Bilyeu?

  And they keep checking back as brokers constantly try to relist you. On the unlimited plan, the exposure scanner hunts down your information. Send a link and their privacy experts handle the takedown. Track your progress in the app and get a monthly risk assessment showing exactly where you stand. Go to incogni.com/impact and use code IMPACT for 60% off an annual plan. Incogni is I N C O G N I dot com slash impact. Promo code IMPACT. It's completely risk free with a 30 day money back guarantee. I think we feel very similarly because I do not consider myself a master of the universe. All I do is fail, Rich, literally.

• 17:58Tom Bilyeu?

  It is almost ridiculous how, you know, there's that Michael Jordan commercial. I've missed this many shots, lost this many games, and that's why I'm successful. So I'm a, I am not, if people look at me and see somebody who's like gripping on tightly to something, that would be a mistake. So my, the mantra that I repeat in my head is that life is full of beauty. Life is full of suffering. You cannot control what happens to you. You can only control how you react. But then there's the next part of it to me, which is the image of grabbing a sword. And so that's my reaction is to fight.

• 18:37Tom Bilyeu?

  And the fight is so clearly that I don't know the answers. And so what I try to do is surround myself with people that won't yes man me, that will tell me when they think that I'm wrong because I'm wrong so often. And it doesn't feel like surrender, but if surrendering is the sense of, I'm not going to be able to solve this by myself. I need help. And by the way, if I don't solve it, what does that really matter? Like I'm, my North Star is exactly joy and fulfillment. That's it. It isn't wealth. I, I am all too clear on the fact that wealth has brought me 0% joy.

• 19:20Tom Bilyeu?

  Like there's nothing about being wealthy that's joyful. The things that it allows me to build are joyful, but those are aimed at meaning and purpose. Right? So I have a math equation and I get like, even hearing myself explain it, I understand how it comes across to people. I've got a math equation. I'm grabbing a sword. I'm fighting like. But that stuff gives me the chills, like it it feels so awesome. And because I am well aware, the only thing that ultimately matters is how I feel about myself when I'm by myself. And have I been loving, have I been kind, have I been open, have I been willing to admit that I'm not smart enough to do this by myself?

• 20:02Tom Bilyeu?

  And and I have come to those conclusions because those conclusions are so useful to getting to joy and fulfillment. But it doesn't feel like letting go.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  I'm sure you've had the experience, however, where you're trying to solve a problem and perhaps your math equation is failing you. And people are saying do this and other people are saying do that. And you've said, well, I'm gonna not do anything for a moment. I'm gonna take a beat and I'm just gonna sit with this. And a day later, a week later, or a month later, the proper solution comes to you, or by dint of doing nothing, it solves itself. Or you end up in a place better off than you could have predicted had you sort of forced your self-will upon that solution in that moment.

• 20:55Tom Bilyeu?

  That is

• 20:55Speaker 02

  So that's an example of kind of what I'm talking about.

• 20:58Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, so meditation for me is a daily practice where I'm trying to get calm and creative for that reason.

• 21:06Tom Bilyeu?

  And the sense of intuition, that is definitely something that I can identify with for sure. And my goal in meditation, so I do two things, I do meditation where I'm just trying to get calm and creative by breathing from my diaphragm and returning to the breath so that my thoughts stop looping in a death spiral around negative shit or problem solving or whatever. And then when you're there, you find that, oh, you, for me, it's like an image will appear in my head. And once I have that space where I'm calm and creative, I try to preload the image of what problem I'm trying to solve. So I can feel myself get into that calm, creative space because I've preloaded this.

• 21:48Tom Bilyeu?

  Was it Mark Twain that said, no, Thomas Edison, never go to bed without making an ask of your subconscious. Thing is a thing, so I will know ahead of time of like, this is the big problem I'm trying to solve and

• 22:02Tom Bilyeu?

  So it's a question of, okay, well, is that Tom grasping because he pre-plans and he knows what problem he's trying to solve and he's, you know, so into being a master of the universe that he's making this ask of his subconscious? Or is that me letting go? Because I understand I can't force it and that all I can do is make the ask of whatever that ephemeral thing is. And then I have to create the space of silence, of equanimity, of peace, in order to hear that little whisper.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 22:33Tom Bilyeu?

  I don't know.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Right. But still, that's fundamentally premised on this idea that at some point, the appropriate response will come to you through that process. But what about the situations where in that, in that period of repose and reflection, other people out in the world are like moving, there's moving pieces out there and those pieces move in such a way that solve the problem for you without you having done anything? And suddenly you're like, oh, wow, now everything is way better and I did nothing.

• 23:09Tom Bilyeu?

  I, that is for sure a real thing. That's something that my wife and I get in fights about routinely.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  Because her perspective is what?

• 23:17Tom Bilyeu?

  She will want me to do something about it. Like, this is a problem, go solve that problem. And my thing is, I've just had to tell her, when you have some big thing like that, you've got to give me three weeks. Because oftentimes, something will present itself, it will solve itself, it will, something that I'm trying to like make happen, suddenly like something just delivers like, I'm really hungry and, you know, pizza falls off a truck. It's, that's a terrible example, but you get the idea.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  No, I understand what you're saying. It's, I'm, I'm probably more like your wife, like, there's a discomfort with that dissonance, like, this has to be fixed because I don't feel comfortable in my own skin until this problem is resolved. And my wife, in our case, of our marriage, she'll be the one to say, don't do anything, like, you don't need to do anything. And sometimes-

• 24:03Tom Bilyeu?

  I don't think of it as doing nothing.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  But I mean, I'm not saying in every occasion, but in certain situations, it's like, take a moment. Be with that discomfort. And what is behind that discomfort? Why does that make you so uncomfortable? And maybe that's the more interesting thing to explore.

• 24:21Tom Bilyeu?

  So I have a slightly different take on that. So I work with artists a lot and they're, Rich, they're amazing. Like, working with a great artist, because I respond to art just unimaginably strongly, and, but I can't create it. So it's this really weird thing of like, I can't, when it comes to writing, I can write things that give me the chills. That's a cool thing, right? To know that I can sit down and I can imagine a scenario and write dialogue, create these characters, and it becomes this very, I feel like I'm channeling, I'm stealing from Stephen King, that's exactly how he describes it. And it, you feel like you're witnessing the story as much as the reader's gonna feel like they're witnessing the story. It really feels awesome.

• 25:03Tom Bilyeu?

  But visual art, which I actually respond incredibly strongly to, I can't create it. And working with artists, I wanted to like, sit there until they get it to the point where I feel that thing that I want to feel. And I have learned you can't do that. And so I literally, on the inside, I have so much discomfort, because I'm like, TikTok, man, we're not creating this art for fun. Like, this is a part of, oftentimes, like, right now, we're working on a multi-million dollar project. And they're like, we need more time, we need to explore. And on the inside, I'm like, motherfuckers, every day that goes by, this is costing me an obscene amount of money. And

• 25:42Tom Bilyeu?

  externally, I'm like, word, take the time, explore, do what you need to do. So it comes back for me, not to what I feel or what I wish were true, but what's actually effective? And if giving that space is effective, then you give the space. And it almost doesn't matter, to your point, I can't control it. So if I try to control them, if I try to force them, I won't get what I want. So of course, I tried that in the early days. It did not yield results. And so you find yourself in a position through trial and error of just being like, Yep, I have to like, and maybe that to you is letting go, but to me, it's being strategically silent.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, those two things overlap, I think. I mean, you can't rush the magic, you know, I know what you're talking about exactly. And, you know, artists are channeling something higher and that cannot be summoned on a deadline or a timeframe necessarily. And to the extent that you try to force it, you're undermining the quality of what it is that you're trying to achieve in the first place.

• 26:45Tom Bilyeu?

  You also break something.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  But with artists, you also, you put it, you have to put up guardrails, you know, kind of gracefully, like they need, the thing is like, they need structure too. But it's that delicate balance of being a support system so they can do their best work. While also creating kind of some of the practical accountability that they may not think they need, but they actually do need to do their best work. And that's a dance, you know, that's like an art in and of itself, I think.

• 27:16Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, that, that is for sure. In terms of the times I frustrate the artists the most is when I don't give them enough restriction. And that was really eye opening. Like they would say, you're not being clear. And I'm like, I'm being incredibly clear. Like, I don't know what other words you want me to say. And then I realized, oh my God, like they're, what they need is like the narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow. Like, I feel like I'm hemming them in too much. But, and this was something I learned in film school, but to often forget that the constraints make the art. And when you have like Jaws, the famous story, the, he wanted to show the mechanical shark like from the word jump. And it kept breaking. And so he had to figure out a way around it between the

• 28:00Tom Bilyeu?

  the sound and then just the fin, because he couldn't make it work. And then of course, that becomes like your imagination goes so crazy. And you can imagine something far more terrifying than what's actually there. And so it ends up becoming this way greater artistic expression. Because he couldn't do the thing that he wanted to do. He had limitations.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, sure, sure. That reminds me of J.J. Abrams TED Talk about the mystery box. You remember that? So it's, we all crave the reveal, you know, in that case, what does the shark actually look like? But it's actually the anticipation of the of the reveal that actually drives the intrigue and the emotional connection with the storytelling.

• 28:39Tom Bilyeu?

  No doubt. The end of Lost still makes me want to punch somebody, though. That show was so good, dude. Oh, my God. I want to rewatch everything but the last season. Oh, so good.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  I can still enjoy it, though.

• 28:50Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, me too. In fairness, while I do want to punch somebody, nonetheless, it it makes me want to punch somebody because I was so into it. It's really incredible. I don't even want to take away from them. It was awesome.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  It pisses me off that Damon Lynn Lough gets so much shit because I think he's a genius and everything that he creates is just magical, in my opinion.

• 29:10Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, it's.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm sure you saw Watchmen.

• 29:13Tom Bilyeu?

  I only saw like the first episode and somehow didn't get the whole series. Worth it?

• 29:18Speaker 02

  It's incredible. Yeah.

• 29:19Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, I love. Have you read the comic?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 29:22Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, my God, it's so good.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  They're like obsessed.

• 29:24Tom Bilyeu?

  It's so good. It is a work, a master work of art that makes me want to crawl into the fetal position because I don't think I'll ever be that good. It it's one of those few pieces of like art that you encounter that you're just like, I don't know whether to to be in awe or to be wounded because it's so good.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  It's shocking that you haven't watched the series, then.

• 29:50Tom Bilyeu?

  Well, that's part of why the first episode was so different.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  It's very different.

• 29:55Tom Bilyeu?

  But I was like.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  It's basically a Watchmen story inspired by the comic or the graphic novel. Um, but it tackles some pretty heady social issues through the lens of those characters, but it's done in such a masterful way that you can't help but be awestruck by it. So I recommend.

• 30:17Tom Bilyeu?

  My man. I want to go back to Hubris.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  I didn't think we were going to talk about Watchmen and all that.

• 30:22Tom Bilyeu?

  Neither did I. That's the.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Conversations with Tom.

• 30:24Tom Bilyeu?

  Exactly. That's the fun of the format. Um, do you think Hubris is just bad? Or is it also something that lets us dare greatly?

• 30:34Speaker 02

  It's both. Um, I mean, Hubris is has a negative connotation to it, uh, but I think, um.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Pride and confidence in the capabilities of the human brain has been the engine of progress and that will continue and it's accelerating and there's a lot of wonderful magical things about it that have created this incredible world that we all get to live in. But I think where we run into trouble is when we don't appreciate that there are things that are beyond our capabilities. Like, I think it's good to think, oh, we can solve any problem and yet

• 31:22Speaker 02

  I think it's also important to couch that confidence against an understanding or an appreciation that

• 31:31Speaker 02

  as advanced as our brains are, they're only so advanced. So, for example, you could spend a lifetime trying to teach your pet snake how to speak English. It doesn't have the brain capacity. It will never understand what you're talking about and it doesn't have the ability to form language, verbal language at least, because its brain's not big enough. Our brains are larger, they're capable of doing much more, but they're not the ultimate, right? We may be just missing a lobe that would allow us to perceive all kinds of amazing things that the capacity of our current brains just are not capable of seeing or understanding, comprehending, or perceiving in any way. And when you think of it, like, we're just, we're, you know, evolution has progressed

• 32:16Speaker 02

  to a certain point, but there hasn't been, you know, an evolution of the human brain to some kind of organic super brain that could perhaps explain things to us that we're completely unaware of that would be elemental and obvious to that brain. And I think the delta between those two things is where you can find awe, appreciation, wonder, and Humility. And I think, you know, kind of inhabiting a healthy dose of humility is is important.

• 32:47Tom Bilyeu?

  You're probably paying two salespeople to do one salesperson's job. That's where today's sponsor Pipe Drive comes in. An intelligent AI-powered sales CRM loved by growing sales teams. Pipe Drive just launched meeting intelligence built right into the CRM. Before every call, it pulls deal history and past conversations into one brief. During the call, it records and takes notes. After it, it drafts your CRM updates to review and approve. So there's less admin and more selling. Switch to a CRM built by salespeople for salespeople and join the over 100,000 companies already using Pipe Drive. My link gets you

• 33:31Tom Bilyeu?

  an exclusive 30 days free instead of the usual 14-day trial. There's no credit card payment needed. Just head to pipedrive.com/impact to get started. Again, that's pipedrive.com/impact and you can be up and running in minutes.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  Check engine, ABS, or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend to shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.

• 34:20Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, that is a central theme in my life. I was once asked how I could be successful and humble at the same time. And I was like, man, humility finds me every day. And the...

• 34:33Tom Bilyeu?

  You know, we were talking about this earlier. It's to really get good at something. It's what I call the physics of progress. But an innate part of the loop of the physics of progress is failure. So you try something, it doesn't quite work. Why didn't it work? And what I think ends up getting people stuck is they, one, normally they don't know what their goal is. But assuming that they actually have a clear goal, they attempt something, they fail to some extent. It hurts. They don't like the way that hurts. They don't want to look at their role in the failure to accept that they're, you know, not capable enough or whatever yet. But that that really stings. And so then they can't muster the, it's not even courage.

• 35:17Tom Bilyeu?

  One, I don't think people take the time to, if I have an emotion that I can't explain in a single sentence, I know I need to journal about it because I need to figure out why I feel the way that I feel. Otherwise, I can find myself moving in weird ways where I don't even know why I'm doing what I'm doing because there's just some discomfort that I'm trying to move away from.

• 35:37Tom Bilyeu?

  But if I stop and go, oh, my God, this is because I think I'm whatever. Like, my big struggle in life has always been I don't feel smart enough. And so like coming to grips with that idea and understanding like how it has propelled me forward to prove to myself, no, no, you can do this.

• 35:55Tom Bilyeu?

  But at the same time, that it's this haunting idea that like is really difficult for me to shake because I have a value system that really wants me to be able to, you know, be incredibly smart. Because, and this is interesting, this is how people, I think about intelligence the way most people think about money. And because I am so in awe of people who are smart, and I want to be that in awe of myself, that I pursue that death loop of like wanting to be smarter all the time, wanting to be smarter, wishing I were smarter. Which is that's sort of the the grand struggle of my life, is it were? But in terms of humility, it's just like, if you can stare nakedly at your inadequacies,

• 36:40Tom Bilyeu?

  realize that you can get better, actually do the thing to get better, rerun another experiment, then you can get in this, the loop of what I call the physics of progress. But people don't have a clear idea of why they don't want to do it again. And so they just don't and they just move. It's like, um, you know, you.

• 37:01Tom Bilyeu?

  You take somebody who has a damage to their brain that makes it impossible for them to form new memories. And if the doctor comes in, they ran this test, it's so crazy that it's true. Doctor put a pin in their hand. So they shake their hand, it pokes them, the person jerks back, but they won't, five minutes from now, they won't remember ever meeting that doctor. Doctor leaves, they come back five minutes later, they extend their hand to shake it, and the person won't shake it. Because there's a different part of your brain that remembers the pain. So even though when you ask them, why won't you shake my hand, they'll be like, oh, I've never shaken the hand of somebody in a lab coat, I just have a personal rule. It's like, no, you don't. But you're not shaking my hand because some part of your brain remembers the pain.

• 37:41Tom Bilyeu?

  And so people live in that part where the, some deep, inaccessible region of their brain is like, this sucks, this is painful, I don't want to do this. And that stops them from getting in that loop.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, we're all, we're all compelled by unconscious drivers to some extent or another. And what you just described so beautifully is a person who has committed themselves to self-understanding and self-actualization. And I think people don't appreciate how much work that is. That is a commitment, right? And you can't kind of self-actualize unless on some level you are, are dedicated to kind of understanding your past, what makes you tick. The way in which your conscious and unconscious mind interact that calcify these loops that perpetuate

• 38:35Speaker 02

  behavioral patterns that repeatedly lead you astray, right?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  You've done this on your own accord. I was sort of forced into it through, you know, addiction. And my rubric has been 12-step, which is a version of that. That was like my introductory point to, you know, a similar trajectory that you just described. But it's all about. Connecting with who you are, right? I think most people are walking around totally unconnected from themselves. They don't understand why they do what they do. They continue to do the same things over and over and over again. They flog themselves and yet decline the opportunity to really deconstruct that, whether it means going to therapy or whatever your modality might be. They're living a reactive life and then they're confounded and confused when they're not getting

• 39:25Speaker 02

  the outcomes that they aspire to achieve or manifest in their lives, right? And for me, I can only speak to my own experience. Like it's been, you know, decades of trying to delve into what has compelled me to act in certain ways? What's the trauma beneath that? How can I better understand that and then, you know, sort of deconstruct it so that it doesn't hold any more power? What is the evidence to support these narratives that I loop in my mind about who I am? I mean, you mentioned this whole thing about like feeling like you're not smart. And just that awareness alone, like, oh, that's what's motivating me to make these decisions.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  I can harness that as a power, but I can also put that to the test. Like, is that actually true? Like, what is, what are, what is the evidentiary support that leads you to have this self-belief? And then you can look through the course of your life and identify all kinds of other examples that rebut that evidence and help you create a new narrative for yourself. And it's interesting how humans, we piece, we, we pick out these little incidents that have happened in our lives and we decide that they have great importance and we allow them to form this latticework of like who we are, like, you know, we hang our identity upon a few isolated incidents that have occurred, when in truth billions of things

• 40:51Speaker 02

  happen to us over the course of our lifetimes and we actually have the power to choose. Different episodes throughout our life and inject those with meaning. And that's like a muscle that you have to build. But the deeper that you're willing to go into that process of self-understanding, I think ultimately the more empowered you you become when you emerge out of it. Like most people, like you said, they don't want to fail. Failure is painful. And then their their lizard brain is like, well, I avoid that. Right? First of all, we need a new word for failure because it's so negatively connotated. There should be a word that encourages us to try new things without being so hung up on how they're

• 41:34Speaker 02

  how they're perceived by ourselves in the world.

• 41:37Tom Bilyeu?

  Can I give you a new word for it?

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:39Tom Bilyeu?

  Sample.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Sample.

• 41:40Tom Bilyeu?

  It's what they use in AI.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 41:42Tom Bilyeu?

  So I watched this because I was I teach a class on failure in Impact Theory University. And I was trying to come up with a good analogy for it. And I started, I at the same time happened to be researching AI. And I had seen this AI learn to play a video game. And it it's called Breakthrough. It's like an old Atari game. And at first it has, it just knows get a high score, but it doesn't know how to get a score at all. And so it knows, okay, wait, I can move the paddle. And so it starts like wiggling the paddle back and forth like completely aimlessly. And then one time the ball randomly happens to hit the paddle and it bounces back up and it scores a point. And so then you see it like, oh shit, okay. So now I I'm supposed to hit the ball.

• 42:27Tom Bilyeu?

  So it like, it like hits the ball and then it starts getting points. And then one time it hits on the side and the ball goes up and starts bouncing around at the top. And that's the design of the game, right? You break through at one point and then like it will start like getting the points for you automatically because it gets the ball gets trapped and it keeps scoring points. And so then these things become deadly efficient. And in AI, of course, the people coding it are not going to say, oh, the AI made a mistake as it's wiggling the paddle about or when it didn't get the high score. Just goes, we have a sample. And so we feed these samples back into the machine. And I was like, if we started thinking of it like that, I tried something. I I have a sample piece of data now. And I'm going to take these sample pieces of data and I'm going to plug them back into my mind and I'm going to get better.

• 43:13Tom Bilyeu?

  That to me is, to your point, the exact kind of thing that we need to do to free ourselves from thinking, oh, when I was wiggling the paddle, it was really embarrassing. Because if you imagine that's a per- like, when I imagine myself learning to play breakthrough in front of a crowd of 10,000 people, and I'm just wiggling the paddle back and forth, I'm like, that would really be embarrassing. But the AI is not embarrassed. And that's why the AI becomes this like breakthrough machine, because it just keeps getting new samples, new sample, new sample, new sample.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Whether you call it sample, or failure, or testing, or whatever you call it, ultimately, it, it, you basically said like the AI was not embarrassed, right? So the AI has healthy self-esteem, right?

• 43:53Tom Bilyeu?

  Exactly.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  The AI's self-esteem is not threatened by whether or not this sample or test was successful, or, or a failure. So rooted in that is this sense of self and self-esteem. And this is just top of mind right now, because I had Scott Barry Kaufman came over to do my podcast yesterday. I don't know if he, has he been on your show?

• 44:15Tom Bilyeu?

  I know that name very well.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Psychologist, he's fantastic. He's got this book out called Transcend. He's a humanistic psychologist who's taught at Columbia, NYU, like a whole bunch of places, very credentialed guy. And this book is basically, he, he, he, he's like obsessed with Abraham Maslow and Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

• 44:35Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know about this guy.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  And he does this deep dive into Maslow's life and realized that when Maslow died at, at, in 1970, he wasn't done with his work. And a lot of what we commonly understand about Maslow's hierarchy of needs is sort of miscast, like we think of this pyramid, right? And he's like, Maslow actually never used the pyramid. That ended up in like, leadership, you know, keynotes, or something like that. But he thought of it more as, you know, a two, like one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back thing. Like, just because you have some basic needs met, you don't ascend up. Like, you may have, you may move up that ladder, and then suddenly, you know, something

• 45:18Speaker 02

  happens, there's a famine or a pandemic, and those base needs are threatened again. So it's an ongoing kind of thing. But a core- Need in that hierarchy is self-esteem and self-esteem is driven by external forces and internal forces. So it's what the world thinks of you and how the world perceives you that gets filtered into how you feel about yourself. And then there's what's going on inside of you, right? That sense that you mentioned of like, I feel like I'm not smart or, or, you know, I'm concerned that people don't think I'm smart. Those are two different things. One's internal, one's external. And to the extent that we can address that and develop healthy self-esteem internally, such that however the external world perceives

• 46:03Speaker 02

  us is not threatening that sense of self, then I think it's more empowering for us to go out into the world and fail or sample.

• 46:11Tom Bilyeu?

  No doubt. And that will spare people the suffering of what other people think doesn't matter. So the world could think that I'm smart all day long, but if I don't, it won't matter. And the same is true. So that's why I liken it to money. Like people think, oh, if I get money, I will feel about myself the way that I feel about the people that I look at who are wealthy and I'm, you know, blown away and think, oh, God, that's so cool.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  Most people pursue that delusion to the grave.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  And even when people who are as successful as you get on a microphone and tell people, uh, trust me, you know, it's still like, yeah, but you know,

• 46:50Tom Bilyeu?

  And that's fair.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  If I can just get that thing.

• 46:51Tom Bilyeu?

  Here's why people will chase it forever, because money is powerful. It just isn't what people think. So people think it's going to make them feel better about themselves and that life will just be joyous every moment thereafter, and it won't. But it really does let you do amazing things. But if you hate yourself, all the money in the world is not going to solve that. And if you believe to your core that you'll never be happy again, money can't touch that, first of all. And then when people believe that, they commit suicide, right? And it's like, how many billionaires have to commit suicide before people realize money isn't going to solve that thing, whatever that thing is, right? So, yeah, money solves money problems. Money lets you build. Money lets you create. Money

• 47:33Tom Bilyeu?

  gives you freedom. It does all of those things. And so that's why, like, people recognize that it would solve certain problems. And

• 47:43Tom Bilyeu?

  They, because it has real utility, people will never stop chasing it. It's the same thing with fame. Fame has utility and therefore people will chase it. But fame isn't what people are expecting, nor is money. But if you know how to use them for what they are, they're great. But at the end of the day, the thing that I am just so careful about, and I'm very grateful that I learned these lessons, painfully, of course, as I have learned every lesson in my life through suffering. But I learned in my twenties that money wasn't going to be able to solve my problems and that I needed to do that work.

• 48:15Tom Bilyeu?

  But yeah, getting people to do that work also is fucking hard.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. So if you had to identify the locus of what brings you satisfaction in your life, like where does that rest?

• 48:31Tom Bilyeu?

  The only things that really matter are, and this is what happens when two podcasters interview each other. Like you're asking me as many questions as I'm asking you.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  It's conversations.

• 48:39Tom Bilyeu?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 48:42Tom Bilyeu?

  So fulfillment, which for me is an equation. So fulfillment is working hard. I think that's a directive that we have buried so deeply in our brains. If you're not doing it, you will feel something weird.

• 48:55Tom Bilyeu?

  So working hard to gain a set of skills that matter to you, that allow you to serve not only yourself, but other people. So that could be through guitar, that you get so good at guitar that you're able to make people feel something emotional and they express their gratitude to you for that. So that's a core part of it. And then joy. So to joyfully pursue the difficult acquisition of skills that matter to me, that allow me to serve people, to serve myself and other people. And then I'll put one sort of caveat on that, which is my marriage is my highest priority. It's the thing that has given me the most joy for sure.

• 49:37Tom Bilyeu?

  There's also something else in there around safety, about my wife holding space and for her to be a backstop. And I read a stat, and I don't remember where I saw this, but the people with the strongest home life take the biggest risks. And the reason I think that's true is that I say to myself all the time, I could go broke, but as long as I have my wife, I'm good. And I know that's true because I've been broke with my wife, and it was awesome. So I don't fear losing finances. I don't fear being unsuccessful. I fear losing my wife. That scares the piss out of me.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's so interesting because again, I have this book transcend on my mind and this hierarchy of needs and it tracks exactly with the thesis of this book, like people who have those base needs of security and safety sort of locked in and taken care of. So financially, you're secure, but it's really your relationship with your wife that is the true anchor. That sense of stability allows you to be more engaged in risk, right? Because you have that foundation there. It allows you to go out and try different things and ultimately provides an opportunity for your life to get even larger by dint of the fact that you're willing to take

• 50:58Speaker 02

  those risks. It's fascinating. And to the extent that you're finding, you know, to your point about fulfillment and purpose, as you kind of move up this hierarchy to self-actualization and ultimately transcendence, which is where Maslow was kind of orienting his thinking around the time that he died, but didn't complete his work. It is that idea of of being in a place where your behaviors and your actions are thoroughly aligned with your values and you're deriving great fulfillment from the work that you're doing, or whatever it is that you're expressing in the world. And it's inextricably tied to this sense that on some level, you're you're contributing

• 51:43Speaker 02

  to the betterment of humanity in your own unique way. And that's really like, that's the key, right? If you can, if you can get to that place, and I aspire to that and feel like I have

• 51:56Speaker 02

  some connection to that, and that's what gets me up in the morning and gets me excited. I get to do this thing that I love and meet all these amazing people. It also provides for my family, and I'm putting it out into the world, and I and it's raising the vibration of the conversation or the way that people are perceiving their own lives. It's cool.

• 52:21Tom Bilyeu?

  It's incredible. It's really incredible.

• 52:25Tom Bilyeu?

  One thing that has always impressed me in your story is that you have

• 52:31Tom Bilyeu?

  you have some way of dealing with failure that is pretty extraordinary. So there's obviously, as an ultra endurance athlete, there was one race where you were coughing up blood, which would be terrifying. And I think was that was the race where you had a brief, a day long break with sobriety after 13 years, which I thought was utterly fascinating.

• 52:55Tom Bilyeu?

  How did you right the ship so fast?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Sobriety wise?

• 53:01Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that was in 2011. I had trained an entire year to compete in a race called Ultraman, which is a double Ironman race. I put everything into being as prepared as I possibly could with the intention of of trying to win that race. And I showed up just so good to go and things didn't go my way, you know?

• 53:23Tom Bilyeu?

  What caused you to start coughing up blood?

• 53:25Speaker 02

  I was I was extremely lean. I was I was down to 158 pounds. So I think I was a little, I was probably five to seven pounds too lean for that race. In endurance, it's all about your power to weight ratio. And you're trying to get to that exact sweet spot where you're as light as possible without sacrificing power. And I think I tipped that scale a little bit too much towards being too lean. And that compromised my immune system. And so when I was pushing, pushing, pushing really hard, I think I just had a low grade respiratory infection that my body couldn't couldn't like keep at bay and it caught up to me and that kind of derailed that whole race.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  And what I and what happened was, yeah, I ended up having a day long relapse after 10 years of sobriety.

• 54:18Tom Bilyeu?

  Before we get to that moment, so you cough up blood, you decide you're not going to finish the race. What's going on in your head at that moment? Are you like, it's all good? Or were you just raging out?

• 54:29Speaker 02

  I was angry and disappointed and frustrated. A lot of sacrifice had gone into that. You know, time away from family and, you know, financial sacrifice. Like, it takes a lot of time to train for these races. It's like, it's a full-time job. So yeah, I was extremely disappointed, upset with myself, confused, because I still have that, you know, I wanted to control that outcome and I couldn't control it.

• 54:58Tom Bilyeu?

  So we haven't discovered surrender yet?

• 55:00Speaker 02

  No. And, and, and really what had happened and what I learned in the wake of that, that is, has been kind of a lever for growth, was in the year leading up to that race, I had made my performance in that race and my training my higher power. And I had lost sight of what's required to stay sober and what the bigger picture is. So it's not that I ever thought, I'm not an alcoholic and I don't need to go to meetings anymore. I, I, I, I always knew that, but I just deprioritized that type of self-care, which has to be my number one priority in order to be the person that I'm capable of being. And I allowed the training in this race to commandeer and take higher priority, you know, commandeer

• 55:45Speaker 02

  that focus and take a higher priority than it should have. And that relapse was a reminder, like, hey, you're, you're, you're not cured and you need to sort your shit out and remember what's most important. And so it allowed me to re-enter recovery with a deeper sense of humility, because it's powerlessness, you know? I had to, I had to deepen that surrender and realize, like, I can't, even though, yeah, I'm an alcoholic, but like, I haven't drank in 10 years. Like, do I really need to go to these meetings? Do I need to do all this stuff? Like, I'm good. And I realized, like, oh, it's cunning baffling and powerful.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  And you forgot just how powerful it is. And just when you thought you could control it. It taught you that you don't have control over this thing. And so I had to humble myself. And I think at the same time, after having 10 years of sobriety, you kind of, I know how this works. I can go into these rooms and like, I'm the guy with the answer and I'm the guy that the newcomer calls and I can say the right thing. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm an elder, you know, and there's an ego attachment to that that needed to get destroyed and was destroyed. So I was able to return to that with a, with a deeper sense of humility and appreciation for the fact that

• 57:07Speaker 02

  I had indulged my self-will and had forgotten that what had gotten me to that point was a level of humility and surrender. That, uh, once my life started to get good again, I was like, well, I don't need that anymore. I had taken my power back and misappropriated my priorities. And so now I have so much more of a deeper appreciation for, um, for the principles that, that keep me sober. And it's just enriched my relationship with the program and the community of people. And the tools that got me sober and continue to keep me sober.

• 57:51Tom Bilyeu?

  And so understanding the part about you had replaced your higher power, did that open the, the path to drinking again because that higher power had let you down as you had to bounce out of the race? Is that the problem? Like, I don't understand why a higher power is so effective, even though I get intuitively that it is.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  It's tricky. It's tricky. I had put all my eggs into the basket of this race. And that's really, uh, an act of ego, right? I'll be okay when I do this race and do well, and I can show everybody that I am this person. Or my self-worth is contingent upon how this race goes. As opposed to appreciating, understanding and living in the sense that we're all spiritual beings having a human experience. And, you know, my ego is not necessarily my friend because we're all expansive and irrespective of what happens in the external world. We all have much to contribute.

• 58:51Speaker 02

  And ultimately, it's not about any of that stuff, other than how you conduct yourself, how you are of service to other people and how you care for yourself and your family.

• 59:03Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so you have the drinks, but you very quickly are refocused. What do you start telling yourself? Like, what's the self-narrative around sobriety? Do you think, I fucked this all up? Do you count sobriety from the day back in ninety-eight, ninety-nine?

• 59:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was, uh, what year was that? Yeah, so, yeah, so I went to, I went to treatment in ninety-eight. But yeah, technically, like, when I relapsed in, it was the end of, it was two thousand eleven, December of two thousand eleven, yeah, you reset the date. And that's some humble pie shit, you know what I mean? Like, I would like to tell you that I have twenty-four years of sobriety. That's technically not true. And to go back into the rooms and to call my friends and, um, you know, the people that I'm close with in the program and be like, hey, man, I just did this thing. Like, that's, that's not an easy phone call to make, you know? That humble pie. But ultimately,

• 1:00:07Tom Bilyeu?

  Did you ever consider not telling anyone?

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. The addict in you is like, no one needs to know this. Do I, I could, that's, that's, that's the addict voice, like, hmm, get away with this, just go back and pretend like everything's okay. But then you're not living in integrity, you know? And the, the longer that I'm sober and the more work I do on myself, the more intolerant I become for behaviors that are not in alignment with the person that I would like to be, right? And I'm sure on your own path, like, you experienced some version of that. In, in twelve-step, they say, the road gets narrower. It's like, at first, it's like you wanted to stop using and drinking. You're like, if I could just go a day without getting high,

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  that would be a miracle, because you're so craven and so captured by this, this, um, this substance or this behavior that's controlling you. And if you could be liberated from that, then everything will be fine. But then you break that chain, and then it becomes about emotional sobriety. That's when the real work starts, and you begin this journey of self-discovery and self-actualization. And the more, The deeper that you go into that, the more things you realize you have to let go of, right? Like, I thought I was just not having to drink anymore, but now I can't lash out at the cashier

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  or cut somebody off in traffic, or I can't hit the drive-through and get a bunch of cheeseburgers on the way home because it makes me feel like shit and it doesn't feel like it's integrous with this person that I want to be. So you end up shedding all of these things until you get to the point like, do I have to give up another thing? Like, Jesus Christ, you know? How far does this have to go? And it feels self-flagellating at times, or like you're being this martyr. But the more that I shed those layers and the more in-integrity that I begin to walk, the more self-esteem I feel, the more integrated I feel, the more self-actualized I feel.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  And to your point about spirituality, I feel like I exude a certain energy and I attract a different type of person into my life and I'm able to kind of interact with people and navigate the world from a much more powerful, grounded space of being than I could otherwise. And that's a very intangible thing. And you know, like, if somebody were to walk into this room right now who is fully self-actualized, you feel their energy, you can tell, you're like, I want to, I want to, who is that? Like, I want to go and talk to that person. Conversely, somebody who is all fucked up and has bad energy, they walk in, you feel that too.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Can you put your finger on what that is exactly? But you know it, right?

• 1:03:05Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, it's crazy. So I have somebody in my life that I love that was sober for, I'm gonna guess it had to be close to 30 years, and they are drinking again.

• 1:03:20Tom Bilyeu?

  I didn't see that coming. Like, that one really caught me off guard. And I'm not even sure what the question is, like, do you just give them space? Like, are there, like, how do you help? Like, I don't even know what took them off. Like, they, they were, dude, they were a paragon. Like, what they overcame was insane. It was so impressive. And they were just doing so good for so long that I never thought they would use again.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's tough. It's so hard. The first thing is, you have to recognize and appreciate that for somebody who is truly an alcoholic, the shocking thing isn't when they relapse or drink. The shocking thing is that they actually wake up and go throughout their day and don't drink. Because the disposition of the alcoholic is to get drunk, right? So every day that goes by that they don't do that is like, wow. And, you know,

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  more people than not fall off the wagon and relapse, and it's heartbreaking. And as somebody who is compassionate and empathetic towards that person who wants to help, it's a very delicate dance. You cannot compel somebody to change who doesn't want to change. That is a futile effort. So all you can do is be available to them and let them know that you're available to help them when they're ready to get help. And you can flex a little tough love here and there. You can have healthy boundaries around that. Like, look, I love you, you know, I don't understand why you're drinking. When you're ready to get help, come and talk to me. But until then, like, I'm not available.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Like, or, because if that person is, if something's like, they're calling you up and they want money, or they want you to pick them up, they got arrested and they want you to go bail them out, like shit like that, like, you have to have a healthy boundary around that. And it's really hard. It's particularly hard, you know, when you're, when it's somebody in your family. Because you're fearful for good reason that something terrible might happen to them. And oftentimes it does. And again, that's another healthy dose of humility and powerlessness because you wanna, you see how to solve the problem and yet it's so difficult to get that person's head around that fact because they're, they're so captured and they're so in their disease that even if

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  they intellectually understand that they can't keep doing this, they're powerless to stop it. And I think it's important to understand that it is a disease, right? Like the, it's not a, it's not a referendum on their moral character. Like they are captured by a disease that is trying to kill them.

• 1:06:06Tom Bilyeu?

  So brutal. And I think that this, you know, to, I've heard you talk about a broader idea of what addiction is, which makes a lot of sense to me. And as it applies to food, there are, cause I grew up in a morbidly obese family with not, in, in my immediate family, there were no alcoholics, but in like cousins, aunts, uncles, it was pretty intense.

• 1:06:29Tom Bilyeu?

  And seeing people that I love struggle with food and just not be able to shake it. And I mean, obviously for me, that's irony of ironies, given that my success is tied to a nutrition company.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Tom Bilyeu?

  But even though they're in pain and they're coming to you saying, you know, I'm in physical pain, like I just wish that this would go away. And you're like, hey, totally understand. And the way that I respond to that is the only thing that makes me sad, somebody like an obese person eating ice cream is awesome if they're enjoying the ice cream and they're willing to pay the price. It's super sad if they're eating the ice cream and they're sad about it. That's the only one that bums me out. And I'm like, if you ever decide that it's not worth the price anymore, then you know, there are steps that we can take and you can do things to alleviate a lot of that pain. But I can't want it for them, which is like the

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  It's rough, it's like when the elevator is going down, you have the option of getting off it before it hits rock bottom. But everybody's pain threshold is different. You know, you mentioned pain. Pain is the great motivator. It's the only thing that's ever gotten me to like, stop any kind of crazy bullshit that I was doing. But if you have a very high pain tolerance, which a lot of addicts do, the, the, the fear or the pain associated with the change always exceeds the pain of their current situation. And it's not until or unless the pain of their current situation is so great that it overshadows the fear of doing something different. And it's so hard, right?

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  But I think to look at it through that lens of addiction and the cunning, baffling, powerful nature of it, you can feel a little bit of compassion for that person and perhaps reserve that judgmental aspect of you that wants to say, what the fuck is your problem? Like, just stop. Like, this is a, this is a function of, of, you know, character failure because you can't just stop doing this thing that's killing you. And for a lot of people, it's, it's, it's too difficult. Or there's something hormonally going on with them that makes their relationship with that thing all the more difficult. Or they're being driven by some discomfort that's bred in childhood trauma. And the only thing that gives them peace

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  is that food or that behavior or that substance. And to your point about addiction, living on a spectrum, and stop me if I'm getting on a loop, but I think it's important to point out that the more we learn about addiction, the more we realize that it isn't just about the drunk in the gutter or the guy who can't pull the needle out of his arm, that on some level, we're all prey to some form of addictive compulsive behavior patterns that are interfering with us aligning our values with our actions. Movies like The Social Dilemma and this crisis that we're now talking about with respect to mobile devices and how much power they hold over our attention,

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  I think is creating a broader mainstream conversation about the nature of addiction because it's something that everybody can relate to, even if they don't have a drinking problem or they don't know anyone who, you know, can't stop smoking crack.

• 1:09:50Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, it's, uh, man, addiction in general is obviously very intense. Food is super freaky. What's going on with all kinds of technologically manipulated, uh, you know, algorithmic response to things is, is definitely gives me pause.

• 1:10:08Tom Bilyeu?

  And irony of irony is as we talk about addiction, uh, the thing that comes to mind is what got us back in contact recently, because I am now addicted in a fun way to Shremu,

• 1:10:21Tom Bilyeu?

  uh, which is a vegan cheese that your wife made. It's unreal. I happened to, I was trying to clear out all the text messages on my phone because they build up. And so you realize that you've missed some for a long, long time. And I saw one from you and it was from like a year ago. And it was like, hey, I sent you some Shremu. Let me know when you get it. And I was like, oh shit, I never got it. I don't know what happened.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Right. I probably sent it to your other house. I can't remember.

• 1:10:48Tom Bilyeu?

  Very, very likely. And so I replied and I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And if I'm completely honest, I thought vegan cheese, like, I don't know, Rich, but send it and, and I, I will try it. And so I tried it when the new shipment arrived. It's freakishly good. And, um, yeah, I'm really, really blown away. Now, it also came at a moment where I'm, so I have another show called Health Theory, uh, which you would have been an amazing guest for that show as well. I just know you have so much more depth. I wanted to spend time here where we could really meander.

• 1:11:26Tom Bilyeu?

  But David Sinclair put something together for me, which is, dude, I feel like a million bucks when I eat meat. And so I could just never wrap my head around like, why would I go vegan? Like this feels so good. And his thing is, I get it because it's triggering mTOR. It's making you feel, um, you know, you're in growth mode. So I understand why that would feel good. But it just isn't tied to longevity. And when you look at longevity, then you start getting into plant-based or vegan. And so I am exploring a more plant-based existence. Um, in part because of Shrimu is the first vegan thing I've tried where I was like, god damn, like this is good.

• 1:12:09Tom Bilyeu?

  I will eat that on a cheat day because it just tastes so good. And one, I want everyone to know, I don't get paid for this. Like this is not a paid promotion. I'm just really that into it. Um, but help me, talk to me about the nutrition side of vegetarianism or veganism. Like, do you have a deep exploration of the science or do you just follow how your body feels?

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, thank you for the kind words about Shrimu. Uh, a few more things I want to say about that, but to, to answer your question, you know, I've been plant-based now for 15 years. Um, feel great. I'm back training right now. I'm going to do some open water marathon swimming races this summer. Um, I'm still able to build lean muscle mass and improve in, you know, all the good things. And I promised myself when I made this switch to resist

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  being captured by any kind of dogmatism, like if I didn't feel good or something was to go awry, that I would redress it and try something else. But it's continued to serve me and, you know, my relationship with how I do it has evolved and it depends on how hard I'm pushing my body and I've made a lot of mistakes and learned a few things along the way. Um, and I did it initially because I was fat and felt like shit and it was vanity, honestly. And then it kind of restored my vitality. It agreed with me. And then I thought, well, I need to really better understand this. And over the course of this journey, I've now become much more educated and sensitive to the environmental considerations of the foods that we eat and the impact that they have on the planet.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  And of course, the compassionate reasons to avoid animal agriculture. But from a health perspective, there's also all of this interesting information and science coming out right now around longevity from people like David Sinclair. Um, and even from Dan Buettner and the Blue Zones who studied the centenarians that live the longest all over the world. And among the kind of many commonalities that these cultures share is They don't eat very much meat. I think there's one or two that are they're essentially completely plant-based. They're not like vegan cultures, but like meat is a delicacy that's enjoyed only once in a while. And you have people like David and Volter Mongo, who are really looking at longevity

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  and what drives it. And when they look at meat, they realize like, this is not a longevity food, right? So whether you want to cut it out completely, or really restrict your, your, you know, kind of enjoyment of it is up to you. And it's not for me to tell anybody how they should or shouldn't eat. I'm just here to tell you that I've been doing this for a long time and I, and I, I feel good. I'm 55. What are some of the mistakes you made? You look fucking incredible, by the way. You're aging extraordinarily well. Hair's getting gray. You look up close, you look amazing. It's easy to look good on camera. It's hard to look good up close. You look fucking great. Thanks, man. Uh, your question was? How you've made mistakes, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think the big challenge now for people, because eating, like, the plant-based

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  movement is so much bigger now than when I started. And I was just one of a handful of athletes who were kind of checking it out. And now it's become this thing that even I wouldn't have predicted. But the challenge with that is that now there are so many meat and dairy analog products that are getting better and better at tasting like the thing that you're used to. And most of these products, Shreemun not included, Shreemun only has like four ingredients. It's just like coconut oil and cashews and like And moss. It's some kind of wizardry, because I'm like, how do you make this taste this way with cashews and coconut oil? It's unreal. I know. Unreal. Put a pin in that for a moment. But, but yeah, I mean, it's very easy to say, oh, I went plant-based,

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  and you're just eating processed burgers and sausages and, you know, all, you know, baloney sandwiches and all kinds of bullshit, and deluding yourself that you're eating healthy, when in fact, you're just eating a highly processed diet. That's probably not much better than whatever it was you're doing before. So for me, it always is about Whole Foods. Like, Whole Foods is close to their natural state, predominantly plants, in my case, exclusively plants. But I think for anybody looking to dial up their plate, you know, maybe try 30 days of being plant predominant. Whole food and see how you feel and go from there.

• 1:16:39Tom Bilyeu?

  But let's break that down. So I tried that haphazardly once and I did not feel good.

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Tom Bilyeu?

  And so I've said that on podcasts before, but I'm always careful to say, I did that. So just like scattershot. But like, if you're really going to do that, I was eating baby carrots, collard greens, bok choy, uh, kale, hickama, cucumber.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  Sounds like you're probably hungry.

• 1:17:07Tom Bilyeu?

  Few things, but that's it. Um,

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  You gotta eat more calories.

• 1:17:10Tom Bilyeu?

  That was, that was predominantly plant-based. I was still having some eggs and a little bit of meat.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:16Tom Bilyeu?

  Um, so I wasn't starving, but I'm guessing that that's too limited?

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Well, it depends on your kind of caloric output. Um, but yeah, I mean, I eat a lot of food. I, I mean, a lot of people say, well, I was starving all the time, but you're, you're switching from very,

• 1:17:33Tom Bilyeu?

  Do you eat rice?

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  Kind of, I do, but sparingly.

• 1:17:36Tom Bilyeu?

  But it spikes my glucose.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Right. So instead of that, eat black beans or lentils or a lower glycemic carbohydrate. Um, sweet potatoes or something like that instead of rice.

• 1:17:47Tom Bilyeu?

  Dude, sweet potatoes. I left that out. I could live off of sweet potato. I'd feel terrible. I'm sure.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  Pretty, they're, they're, they're great. Like,

• 1:17:54Tom Bilyeu?

  How do you prepare them?

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  You just bake them.

• 1:17:57Tom Bilyeu?

  Can I?

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  You can put a little sea salt, like olive oil on it a little bit like that. What's that?

• 1:18:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Can I heat it up?

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Tom Bilyeu?

  In the olive oil? Because then it's basically a french fry and it's unreasonably good.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Well, just be, be sparing with the oil.

• 1:18:09Tom Bilyeu?

  Here's what I do. I, I slice it up. I put some olive oil on it, stirred around, and then I put it in an air fryer. So good.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:20Tom Bilyeu?

  But that feels like french fries. I'm okay with that?

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  It's, I think a mistake that people make when they go plant-based is suddenly everything's covered in oil.

• 1:18:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  And oil is obviously very, very, any oil, like, and any oil is very calorically dense and not nutritionally dense. So what you want to do is focus on, Nutritionally dense foods and making sure that you meet your caloric needs. And if you're eating a very meat and dairy laden diet, that's going to be a big difference because those are very calorically dense foods. And if you're suddenly just eating salads, you're going to be starving all the time. So you want like tons of dark leafy greens and a wide variety of colorful vegetables and all of that. But you also want to feel sated. So finding the right carbohydrate sources that that agree with you, I think is a little journey that everyone goes on. Like I love potatoes and actually russet potatoes are much more nutritious than people think.

• 1:19:14Tom Bilyeu?

  What's a russet?

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  Just a typical potato.

• 1:19:16Tom Bilyeu?

  Like a brown potato?

• 1:19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a brown potato. They're actually pretty nutritious. We kind of dismiss them.

• 1:19:22Tom Bilyeu?

  What do you put on it?

• 1:19:22Speaker 02

  But it's all about how you prepare it. Yeah. If you make, if you, if you eat french fries, that's not healthy. But if you just eat a baked potato and put some nutritional yeast on it and some sea salt or something like that.

• 1:19:33Tom Bilyeu?

  Nutritional yeast?

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:35Tom Bilyeu?

  That sounds horrifying.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  It's sort of, it has like a Parmigiani kind of vibe to it.

• 1:19:41Tom Bilyeu?

  Do you sprinkle it?

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you sprinkle it on there.

• 1:19:43Tom Bilyeu?

  Can I get it in a bag like?

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  You get it in Bragg's make it. It comes in like a jar. You can get it at any Whole Foods and most grocery stores.

• 1:19:50Tom Bilyeu?

  I don't even know what that is. This is going to be a whole journey for me.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  It's high in B12. It's good. So it's about finding, you know, like a lot of like the foods that we crave, the meat and dairy foods that we crave. You know, a lot of it is about the sauces. So if you can create healthy sauces for healthier types of foods and you're, then you're kind of meeting those satiety kind of desires or things that you're used to. But it's a process and I think, you know, back to your point about sampling versus failure. When it comes to any kind of change and certainly dietary change, people like go, I'm going to go on this diet or I'm going to change. First of all, nobody should go on a diet. They should be trying to change their lifestyle habits in a manner that is sustainable.

• 1:20:36Tom Bilyeu?

  Facts.

• 1:20:36Speaker 02

  Right? So that's key. You know that. But in that process, rather than look at it like I'm trying to do this thing and I slipped up and so I failed. It was a sampling error, or it was information. Why did I make that choice? Why did I end up, oh, it's because, you know, I had too many shitty foods in my cabinet that were too easily available for me. Maybe I should get rid of those, or I just had a fight with my spouse and now I realize like when I'm emotionally distressed, I habitually, you know, reach out for that thing that's unhealthy to kind of soothe my emotional state, you know? Emotional eating, regardless of whether you're a food quote unquote addict or not, on some level, I think we're all programmed to make food choices based on our emotional needs, right?

• 1:21:21Speaker 02

  Like, and we're not even consciously aware that we're trying to soothe ourselves in that way. And I think the more self-awareness that you can come into around that is powerful and beneficial. And then it's about, you know, making healthy choices, always accessible, doing a little bit of planning. I think people think if you're going plant-based, you gotta like upend your whole life and spend all day preparing meals.

• 1:21:45Tom Bilyeu?

  It does sound like that to me.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  It's not like that. It's not like that.

• 1:21:47Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm gonna end up eating an unhealthy amount of shrimu. It's easy and it's delicious. And I actually mean that literally, but so.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  Shrimu is a very high caloric food, so you gotta eat it spiritually. We were talking about that before. But it, but it only has a couple of ingredients in it. It is magical wizardry that my wife has concocted and created. She's a badass entrepreneur. She's gonna, she's, she's gonna turn this company into like a big thing. She's raising a bunch of money right now. It's pretty exciting. And I'm just in awe of watching her like do her thing and step into her power with this beautiful product that she's created. And it's exciting.

• 1:22:23Tom Bilyeu?

  It's delicious. Now, on the, cause the thing I need to solve for is what's your version of meat? So when I'm eating, I've got like my eggs and then a side of greens or whatever. What's the like thing? Is it beans? Is it potatoes? Like what's the, the centerpiece? Yeah, the anchor. Thank you.

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Why does there have to be an anchor?

• 1:22:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Maybe there doesn't, but that's how I think of food.

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  But that's a social construct.

• 1:22:51Tom Bilyeu?

  Interesting.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Is it not?

• 1:22:53Tom Bilyeu?

  I don't know.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:22:54Tom Bilyeu?

  Like when I, what's the thing that is gonna make me feel full? Maybe that's my real question.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the, the.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  The carbohydrates are gonna probably make you more full than than eating a bunch of greens, of course, right? So I eat tons of potatoes.

• 1:23:11Tom Bilyeu?

  You mean like starchy carbohydrates?

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, right, but you have to be, you, you gotta make sure you're, that the grain, if you're eating grains, that they, that they're whole grains.

• 1:23:21Speaker 02

  You don't wanna eat, you don't wanna be eating a bunch of refined grains.

• 1:23:24Tom Bilyeu?

  What's your take on?

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  A lot of, a lot of people make.

• 1:23:27Tom Bilyeu?

  Lectins.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  I think it's, I think it's a non-issue, you know, I really do, like, I, li- listen.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  If you're not cooking your beans, then potentially it's a problem, but who doesn't cook their beans? The only time you eat beans is when they're cooked. I honestly think it's a, a non-conversation.

• 1:23:47Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so even on rice, whole grain rice?

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, whole grain rice, I'm pretty sparing with rice, I eat tons of beans.

• 1:23:55Tom Bilyeu?

  Because of the glycemic.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like, I also, like, when I'm training, like, I eat tons, so I eat tons of carbohydrates.

• 1:24:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Why be sparing on rice? I want you to tell me I can have white rice. That's the point here, Rich, I want some white rice.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  I mean, first of all, white rice is a refined grain, they stripped out that, the healthy part of the rice to make it more tasty, so I would encourage you to try a long grain rice or, you know, some kind of brown rice.

• 1:24:17Tom Bilyeu?

  Because of what it adds?

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  But why don't you try, why don't you, why don't you swap the rice out for quinoa instead, which is has, which is much higher in protein, anyway.

• 1:24:25Tom Bilyeu?

  And lower glycemic or roughly the same?

• 1:24:27Speaker 02

  No, much lower glycemic.

• 1:24:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:31Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm open to experimenting for sure.

• 1:24:35Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so that is very helpful in terms of the anchor item for it. What are some gotchas? Like, what, what rookie mistakes do people make?

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  Processed foods, like I said, you know, now, now there's so many and they taste pretty good. So diluting yourself into thinking you're eating healthy.

• 1:24:54Tom Bilyeu?

  I had a Beyond Burger that spiked me as hard as ice cream.

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  Oh, it did it really?

• 1:24:58Tom Bilyeu?

  I was like, whoa.

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  Are you using a CGM?

• 1:25:02Tom Bilyeu?

  I was at the time, I'm not right now, but yeah.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:05Tom Bilyeu?

  I was like, I was so excited, I was like, oh, I gotta try this thing, this is amazing. And then my blood sugar was just going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, and I was like, whoa. I think it topped out at like 178 or something crazy like that, I was like, god damn. Ice cream for that.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, interesting, I mean, I think.

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  The more we learn about the impact of large scale factory animal agriculture, the more clear it becomes that we need to move towards a more sustainable, plant predominant way of living. And I think in that context, or in the context of, you know, opting out of the slaughter of billions of animals every year, that the Beyond Burgers and the Impossibles and all of that, hold a very important place as transition foods for people who really don't want to go plant-based, but need something that they're used to, that they like, that tastes like what they want it to taste like. And those, those foods serve their purpose well for that, I think.

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  But ultimately, if you want to be maximally, optimally healthy, you want to be always looking at the whole foods. So tons of nuts, seeds and grain, like you're doing this intermittent fast, but most people aren't, you know, if you want to be like sort of grazing throughout the day to keep your blood sugar high, like I always keep pumpkin seeds and almonds and bananas in my car.

• 1:26:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Raw? Roasted?

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, raw. Always raw.

• 1:26:31Tom Bilyeu?

  Raw pumpkin seeds?

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you combine, if you combine pumpkin seeds with something high in vitamin C,

• 1:26:38Tom Bilyeu?

  Are they wet?

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  It increases the iron uptake.

• 1:26:41Tom Bilyeu?

  How do you get a raw pumpkin seed without all the goop on them?

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  You just chew them.

• 1:26:45Tom Bilyeu?

  But are they, but I'm saying like, do they have like the goop on them?

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  No, they're like dry.

• 1:26:50Tom Bilyeu?

  So they do dry them in some way? They just don't roast them?

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  They're just a little chewier.

• 1:26:56Tom Bilyeu?

  Man.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  That's all.

• 1:26:58Tom Bilyeu?

  Cause roasted pumpkin seeds that like have, uh, what do they put on them? Like cinnamon and stuff?

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  All kinds of stuff.

• 1:27:04Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, buddy. I'll take me some of that, but raw.

• 1:27:08Speaker 02

  Not so sure. Not so sure.

• 1:27:11Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay. So people mess up. They take processed food, transitional. I wanted to ask you-

• 1:27:15Speaker 02

  And I think also people don't eat enough calories, like, cause they're used to these very calorically dense foods and then they go plant-based and they say they're starving all the time. It's like, eat more.

• 1:27:25Tom Bilyeu?

  I was gonna say, that seems like a pretty obvious response.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  You know, and focus on the foods that are most nutritionally dense, like dark leafy greens are like the base of everything that I do. And for protein, it's tons of lentils, black beans, quinoa, things like that. Um, I'm big on smoothies because you could basically take what would ordinarily be just an absolutely massive salad that you would never sit down in the morning and eat and put it in a blender. And basically turbocharge yourself with all kinds of healthy micronutrients.

• 1:27:56Tom Bilyeu?

  Give me a smoothie that you make.

• 1:27:58Speaker 02

  It varies.

• 1:28:00Tom Bilyeu?

  We putting like a blueberry base in here? What are we talking about?

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  No, the base is always dark leafy greens. So kale, spinach, chard.

• 1:28:05Tom Bilyeu?

  Just word up.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  And then I'm big on like beet, beets and beet greens, especially if I'm gonna, if I've got a big training session because beets are so good for oxygen uptake. They really are an endurance booster. So if I'm training really hard, beets make their way in there.

• 1:28:22Tom Bilyeu?

  And you don't do that when you're not training because they're high in sugar?

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  No, I just, they're not as tasty. You know, I mean, it's an acquired taste to like, you know, blend a whole beet and drink it, you know? And then you, you know, and then when you go to the bathroom and it all comes out red, you have a moment of panic.

• 1:28:40Tom Bilyeu?

  Yes, indeed.

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  That happens. Then berries like blackberries, blueberries, you know, super high antioxidants. Bananas, some spirulina, which is actually the highest, has the highest protein content by weight of any food. I think I have that right. Like very high protein content. I love spirulina.

• 1:29:05Tom Bilyeu?

  I don't even know what spirulina is. I can't picture it.

• 1:29:08Speaker 02

  Basically like an algae base, but you can get it in a powder. Yeah.

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  I do a little bit of plant-based protein powder, but I don't overdo it with that. I'm not trying to meet my protein needs with protein powders. And then what else do I put in there?

• 1:29:25Tom Bilyeu?

  And your heavy hitter on proteins is beans and quinoa?

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  Beans, quinoa, lentils. Basically, when you talk about protein, we're just talking about amino acids, right? The building blocks of protein. When you eat protein, your body breaks it down into those amino acids and then reassembles it. And all plant foods have amino, all the amino acids. Really what we need are the nine essential amino acids that our bodies can't, can't create on their own. We need them from external sources. And if you're just eating a wide variety of plant foods, you're gonna meet your protein needs. And if you feel like you need more, there are plant foods that are higher in protein that make it really.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  Not that big of a deal. I know bodybuilders that are plant-based. I have a bodybuilder friend, Nema Delgado, who's never eaten meat in his entire life and was a competitive bodybuilder. And if I'll show you his Instagram after this, like, his physique is ridiculous. I mean, he was in the movie The Game Changers, if you saw that.

• 1:30:27Tom Bilyeu?

  I haven't.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  Which is another resource you might want to check out, which is basically about being a plant-based athlete.

• 1:30:35Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, this stuff is a trip. It wasn't until David Sinclair, like, I've really recently gotten into like, what's going on mechanistically for longevity, like, the mTOR pathway and looking at like, what's going on with uric acid, the impacts on mitochondria, like, it's all starting to come together in terms of like, what are the things, like, fructose's role in storing fat and like, beginning to understand, okay, the sort of do's and don'ts. In fact, where do you fall on fruit? Like, are you?

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  I eat tons of fruit. Yeah, I, I, I think being afraid of fruit is ridiculous.

• 1:31:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Do you at all differentiate between different types of fruit or not at all?

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  Not really. I have friends that, I have a type one diabetic friend of mine, Robbie Bavaro, who is a fruitarian. That is all he eats.

• 1:31:31Tom Bilyeu?

  Does he exercise a lot?

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  He, he eats cases and cases of fruit. He goes to the farmer's market and buys more fruit than you can possibly imagine. That is all he eats. And he's a type one diabetic. And this helps control his blood glucose. He wrote a book and he's been on my podcast. He's got a program called Mastering Diabetes. And what's so interesting about that is it contravenes everything that we think about the relationship between food and blood glucose, because you think fruit, sugar, spike your glucose, not good, that's something a diabetic should not do, or somebody who's worried about diabetes should avoid. And in fact, he's experienced the opposite of that. Like, you would have to talk to him. But I think

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  when you're eating fruit, it's easy to say, you know, I, I'm not a believer in like, oh, whether it's a Coca-Cola or an apple, it's all the same, it's all sugar. Like, the fruit... In or the sugar in fruit comes in a matrix of fiber. And when you digest it, it, your body has to break all of that down and it creates, you know, more of a drip like effect than a crazy spike that would occur if you're drinking Coca-Cola.

• 1:32:48Tom Bilyeu?

  Have you worn a continuous glucose monitor?

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 1:32:51Tom Bilyeu?

  Have you worn a continuous glucose monitor?

• 1:32:52Speaker 02

  I have, yeah, yeah, I have.

• 1:32:54Tom Bilyeu?

  And fruit does elevate you, doesn't elevate you?

• 1:32:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think what's interesting about the CGM is, is I think we need to be cautious as consumers about reading too much into these spikes.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  Because I think it, it makes people think like, oh, it should never spike or, or that if it is spiking, it's bad. And I think as a general rule, maybe you can infer some basic guidelines around how to live your life and what to eat and what not to eat. And I think it is interesting when you eat certain foods and thinking it's not going to spike, like the Beyond Burger, and it does, that there's some information there that can be useful to you. But I think we're just starting to learn about the relationship between how blood glucose goes up and down and, and how that relates to like diet and lifestyle choices that we're making. And I don't think it's as simple as, well, this food made me, made it spike, so I should never eat that food.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  I think there's a lot more going on there and we just have to be a little more cautious as the scientists continue to look at what's relevant and what's not.

• 1:34:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Do you look at all at like, um, forget David Sinclair's company InsideTracker? I think that's, uh, cured. But have you ever had your, um, biological age, not your chronological age, but your biological age measured?

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  I haven't, no, but InsideTracker just came and took blood from me because they're, I think they're gonna, we're looking at them to, to be a sponsor of the podcast. So I have yet to like dive deep into, when I get the test back. I'll dive into that, but is that the one that does the biological clock? Or is that just about your blood work?

• 1:34:33Tom Bilyeu?

  Uh, no, I think that is the one that does the biological clock. And we have the youngest person biologically by their, whatever they're measuring telomere. And I actually don't know what they look at, but whatever they look at.

• 1:34:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Is the guy that was, he's not vegetarian now, but he was vegetarian for a very, very long time. So he's, uh, I think 23, but his biological age is 18.

• 1:34:56Speaker 02

  And you mean he works here?

• 1:34:57Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  He works for you?

• 1:34:58Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, he's literally right over there as we speak.

• 1:35:02Speaker 02

  And what, what is David's biological age? It's like 38 or something.

• 1:35:05Tom Bilyeu?

  David is, David, who actually is what 25 is probably 46. Because, uh, he, oh, David Sinclair, you mean?

• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  David Sinclair.

• 1:35:14Tom Bilyeu?

  I thought you were talking about our David, who's also on the other side of that wall. Uh, who eats Kit Kats for breakfast. Uh, he's going to be dead in an hour. But, uh, I, yeah, Sinclair is several years below whatever his real age is. I think he's 53. I think he might be like 35 or something stupid like that. Yeah, whatever he's doing is working. He looks amazing, but, um, even going beyond that, like. So again, for me, the mechanism, once I understood like, okay, red meat is triggering mTOR. Then I could begin to sort of understand, okay, that's putting me in a growth mode. Then I can understand why I feel great, but that this may not be good for longevity. And that in David's words, you actually want a little bit of a hermetic response.

• 1:35:56Tom Bilyeu?

  And so by going plant-based, he categorizes that as this slight stressor on your body. And that the more stressed out the plants were when they were harvested, the better it actually is for you. And I don't know if that's through the polyphenols or whatever. But that all gets so interesting. And the, the idea that we've co-evolved with these plants. And man, if you want to know, like, do plants have impacts on our biology? You need to only do, you know, drugs, basically to see the kind of incredible effect. And so the thought that, you know, plants are creating these compounds to either incentivize something to eat them. If it's fruit and they want you to, you know, carry their seeds to other locations.

• 1:36:39Tom Bilyeu?

  Or stop you from eating it in terms of, you know, whether it's bitter taste or hallucinogenic effects. Like, that's crazy to me.

• 1:36:46Speaker 02

  It is pretty crazy. It is pretty crazy. And the truth is. People think like, oh, if I go plant-based, it's going to be so limiting. But what they don't understand is like, well, before you're basically eating pizza and cheeseburgers and like chicken wings, or you know, it's like pretty limited, right?

• 1:37:05Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  But then if you're really open to like the plant kingdom, suddenly like a whole world of possibility opens up to you. So I would encourage you to sample and try all of the amazing, you know, there's so many plants out there to cook with and to enjoy. And I think the process of just treating it like a fun adventure takes a lot of the, you know, I don't know, pressure or intensity out of it. And you just look at it like a fun learning experience. And I think through the course of doing that, you'll, you'll find new foods that you love, that make you feel good. And you'll realize these other things that I thought were good for me, don't agree with me.

• 1:37:48Speaker 02

  And it's just a constant iteration and refinement process. And you can always go back to doing what you were doing before.

• 1:37:57Tom Bilyeu?

  No doubt. Yeah, that doesn't scare me in terms of if it doesn't land or whatever, we're fine. But I really am interested in longevity. And so I'm willing to experiment with some pretty crazy things that it's going to add. So what I want to do, what I should do is get tested for my biological age and then go on this odyssey of, you know, diving into a more plant-forward. I don't know that I'll go full vegetarian and I almost certainly will not go vegan. But doing that as a more controlled experiment, wear a continuous glucose monitor, do a test at the beginning, do a test at the end and see how it goes. That'll be really interesting to see.

• 1:38:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a guy coming on my podcast soon. Called Mike Fremont, he just turned a hundred.

• 1:38:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Whoa.

• 1:38:45Speaker 02

  He's been plant-based forever. And he goes out and runs marathons and ultra-marathons and he's set like world records.

• 1:38:53Tom Bilyeu?

  Ultra-marathons? At a hundred?

• 1:38:55Speaker 02

  I don't know the last time he's done, I don't know the longest one. I should be careful, I don't want to misspeak. I know that he's breaking world records in distance running. Right now, like he's still competing.

• 1:39:06Tom Bilyeu?

  For his age?

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  For his age, yeah, for his age.

• 1:39:08Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, I was gonna say, god damn.

• 1:39:10Speaker 02

  I mean, the crowd gets thin up there. But just the fact that he's goes out and gets after it and he's like racing, he's literally a hundred years old.

• 1:39:19Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow.

• 1:39:20Speaker 02

  I can't wait to talk to him, yeah.

• 1:39:22Tom Bilyeu?

  Very impressive.

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  And he's been, he's been plant-based forever.

• 1:39:25Tom Bilyeu?

  Did you find him through the plant-based community?

• 1:39:26Speaker 02

  I had a guy on the show called Harvey Lewis, who's forty-five right now, has been plant-based forever. And is having the most epic year as an ultra-marathoner. He's won Badwater two times.

• 1:39:39Tom Bilyeu?

  Whoa, I know what Badwater is.

• 1:39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he's won Badwater twice. And he just won this thing called Big's Backyard Ultra. Which is a race in which you do a four-mile loop on the hour, every hour. Everybody does four miles and then when the hour's up, you do another four miles. And you just keep going and people drop off when they can't make the time cutoff for the four-mile loop. And you go until nobody's left. And he ran three hundred and fifty-four miles. Over like eighty hours or something like that.

• 1:40:14Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh my god.

• 1:40:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And essentially no sleep and he's forty-five. And anyway, Mike Fremont is like his buddy. And he, when he came on the show, he's like, you gotta meet Mike, he's unbelievable. Yeah. I was like, he's unbelievable, you're unbelievable.

• 1:40:29Tom Bilyeu?

  I was gonna say, yeah, four, four miles an hour for eighty hours?

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:35Tom Bilyeu?

  That's bananas.

• 1:40:35Speaker 02

  He's a high school teacher in Cincinnati.

• 1:40:37Tom Bilyeu?

  Do we know what the longest distance anyone has ever run without stopping?

• 1:40:43Speaker 02

  No, I mean technically that race they're stopping.

• 1:40:48Tom Bilyeu?

  Why?

• 1:40:48Speaker 02

  Because, well, you run four miles and then you stop and you and you start again on the hour.

• 1:40:53Tom Bilyeu?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  So tech, but I mean, it's a continuous race.

• 1:40:59Speaker 02

  Once you get up into those distances, though, like people are walking, they're running, they're stopping for a minute. Like, it's not running like you would think of it.

• 1:41:07Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:07Speaker 02

  So it depends on how you define stopping, I suppose. But 354 miles in a race context is the longest that anyone's kind of run. Yeah. Before that, no one had broken, because this race has been going on for a little while, no one had broken 300 miles. He came close like the year or two before. But it was just him and this Japanese guy. And neither of them would quit. And it's that thing where it's like, even after they got to 300 miles, like pushing each other to go way beyond anything anybody ever thought possible. It's cool.

• 1:41:42Tom Bilyeu?

  That is bananas.

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:44Tom Bilyeu?

  That is bananas. Well, Rich, thank you so much for coming on today, man. This was a lot of fun. And speaking of pushing each other, I watch your podcast. It's absolutely incredible. Everybody should definitely be watching it. In fact, where should people connect with you?

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  Thank you for that. And right back at you. I think what you're doing here is incredible. So it's really an honor to come in and sit down and talk to you. You can find everything that I do at richroll.com. We're on YouTube and all the podcast players, the Rich Roll Podcast, and I'm at Rich Roll on all the social stuff.

• 1:42:15Tom Bilyeu?

  And get that Shrimu. Get.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Shrimu.com, S R I M U dot com. It's a subscription box model, so anyone who wants to check it out, you can find it on the website. If you're in Los Angeles, you can find it at Air One, but everyone else you can order online.

• 1:42:31Tom Bilyeu?

  There it is. Do it. My highest recommendation, truly, for sure.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  Julie will be thrilled.

• 1:42:36Tom Bilyeu?

  Nice. All right, guys, that's it. I hope you enjoyed it. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.

• 1:42:50Tom Bilyeu?

  Let's talk about a pattern that is guaranteed to be killing your progress. You know what you need to do. You need consistent nutrition. We all do. You need vitamins, probiotics, greens. We all know that we should be doing more of it. When your morning gets chaotic, you skip it. When you travel, you skip it. When your routine breaks, everything tends to break, and that inconsistency compounds against you every single day. AG1 is designed to solve the execution problem. One scoop, eight ounces of water, and you're done. You're getting 75 plus ingredients, vitamins and minerals, pre and probiotics, nutrient-dense superfoods, everything that used to require six, seven different supplements, and perfect planning now happens in one drink that takes about 30 seconds to make.

• 1:43:35Tom Bilyeu?

  Right now, AG1 is giving you $87 worth of free gifts with your first subscription. You get a welcome kit, travel packs, vitamin D3 plus K2, and flavor samples. Click the link in the show notes or visit drinkag1.com/impact to claim this offer.

• 1:43:57Speaker 03

  Check engine, ABS, or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE-certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.