Harvard Scientist: "These Kids Are Telepathic!” [Telepathy Tapes Documentary]

Join Jesse Michels as he explores the extraordinary world of telepathy with Ky Dickens (www.thetelepathytapes.com) and neuroscientist Dr. Diane Powell. In this insightful episode of American Alchemy, they delve into the remarkable telepathic abilities observed in non-speaking autistic individuals, discussing groundbreaking experiments, scientific rigor, and the profound implications for understanding communication, consciousness, and human connection. Thank you to MyHeritage for sponsoring this video. Start your 14-day free trial today using the link https://bit.ly/JesseMichels_MH SUPPORT THE TELEPATHY TAPES BELOW Listen: https://tinyurl.com/spotifytelepathytapes Website: https://thetelepathytapes.com Donate: https://tinyurl.com/donatetelepathytapes JOIN OUR NEW WHOP (Community + Group Calls With Jesse) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels/ Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichels TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 06:10 - Meeting Dr. Diana Powell 07:53 - Studying Telepathy 10:42 - Autistic Children 13:02 - Ky’s Research (Mia’s Story) 15:24 - Converting Skeptics 20:41 - Akhil's Story 25:52 - ASHA 28:32 - Houston’s Story 34:12 - “The Hill” 38:15 - Josiah’s Story 44:41 - John Paul’s Story 53:48 - The New Paradigm 01:03:40 - Amelia’s Story 01:11:11 - The Goal of Telepathy Tapes 01:13:52 - Method of Transmission 01:17:26 - Testing Non-Speakers 01:21:35 - Transmission Theory 01:28:20 - Andrija Puharich’s Research 01:30:00 - Scalar Physics 01:34:39 - Extended Electrodynamics 01:36:08 - Caudate Putamen 01:39:34 - DSM / Medical Diagnosis 01:44:05 - Love is Essential 01:54:50 - Destigmatization 01:57:54 - Fiction As Reality 01:59:20 - Protecting Researchers 02:01:20 - John Mack 02:06:10 - End of Current Paradigm 02:07:56 - Support Telepathy Tapes #science #telepathy #telepathytapes #research #consciousness Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 02

  So I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a number.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  We'd blindfold and then show her mother a random number generator, a random picture generator.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  The kid will say, "I'm reading your mind." And then they start, they do a few little experiments.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  We did various tests, and she was right every time.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Their kids can see things that they simply can't. Her answer is 100% accurate. What is this second number?

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Six!

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Oh my god!

• 0:54Speaker 01

  We think of as woo-woo or this airy-fairy stuff, but it's true.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  Autistic individuals have these incredible abilities.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  The science behind this, this is so much bigger than our knee-jerk reactions of truth. We're gonna have everyone on the crew just calm and write a word down, okay?

• 1:13Speaker 03

  Yee. H. Ha. A. Ha. O. Ha.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  Ha.

• 1:25Speaker 03

  O.

• 1:28Jesse Michels?

  You've just done an amazing job of documenting these autistic, in many cases, non-verbal children who display telepathic powers, which I can't believe I'm even saying, but you show that this is, you know, occurring in statistically significant ways.

• 1:45Speaker 05

  Can I, what picture am I looking at now? Okay. Just you say it.

• 1:53Speaker 05

  Okay, what is this?

• 1:55Speaker 03

  A sap. A sap, yeah.

• 1:57Speaker 05

  You see, I'm not even looking at him.

• 1:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:59Jesse Michels?

  You have a Harvard-trained neuroscientist, Dr. Diane Powell, who are doing the studies. But you also, you know, seem eminently, you know, normal and not, you know, insanely woo-woo.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  I needed to believe it was happening. And so I asked Diane, you know, can we, can I do my own test where I bring the cues and pick the house? I didn't want her to be a factor in it. So I wanted to control the test. I don't want Dr. Powell to bring this stuff. I don't want his families to bring this stuff. I just want to be like the layer for the skeptics where it's like, you know, get this all on. I'm not even going to open it until the day of. And she said yes. And I said, I'd like it to be a family we haven't tested yet, that you've never met. I just wanted to clear out any of the possible factors that could influence this. That's kind of how it began. We brought this young girl, Mia, up from Mexico. You know, most of the family didn't even speak English. Only her aunt, Sofia, did.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  And I rented a house in Glendale, California. And we took all the mirrors down and all the TVs down and put up cameras every which way and started the process of testing her. And with a divider that would go between her and her mother, we'd blindfold Mia and then show her mother a random number generator, a random picture generator. I brought flashcards, colored balls. We did various tests. And she was right every time.

• 3:17Speaker 05

  Hay un personaje en la página 26. Who? He?

• 3:25Speaker 05

  Ah?

• 3:27Speaker 05

  Ah?

• 3:31Jesse Michels?

  The tests were remarkable. I mean, just hearing her say without fail what's in her mother's mind. It's just, I don't know, it's so amazing. And then hearing the earnestness of her parents as well, where it's like, these people clearly are not lying. They're not grifting, you know? There's no ulterior motive here.

• 3:52Speaker 05

  You can write a word, too. You can write a word.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  So Akil, just see the back of my hand? Okay, I'm just going to grab one.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Actually, that's too easy. Hold on, that goes with what we just looked at.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 4:04Speaker 05

  Tell me when it's ready.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Okay. You see this?

• 4:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, what do you want? Okay. Akil, what's in my mind? What's the picture about?

• 4:15Speaker 03

  Back.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  C. R. O.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  C. O.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  D. I. L.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  E. Crocodile.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  That's so awesome, Akil. That's so awesome.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  One.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Ready?

• 4:40Speaker 03

  And.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Three. Yeah. And three.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  We'll do the.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Good job.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Here we go. You're doing so good. Eight and.

• 4:57Speaker 03

  What? What?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  I think that, you know, with the telepathy tapes, one of the things that I, you know, I realized in terms of instead of me just writing up all these cases, you know, and that being yet another thing that's in the scientific literature, that people need to hear what I hear because I'm not just collecting data. I'm assessing, you know, the tone of voice, you know, the content of what's said. You can, you really, there's so much information there that's not like, you know, mathematical data, but there's so much information that you're getting from actually listening to these families and listening to the people who see this stuff, you know, for the first time or listening to their struggles with, how do I make sense of this?

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Because that's, that's, that's really what I, and that kind of contact I get all the time from these families is I, you know, I don't know what to make of this and they're relieved that their, their child isn't the only one.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I'm a documentary filmmaker by trade and I've had, I've created five feature films, but I will tell you, I felt bashful when I started working on something that had to do with telepathy. I mean, my dad, I remember saying something along the lines of like, your hard-earned career and reputation are going to be, you know, scattered to the wind. It felt, it felt hard to talk about to people, to clients. You know, I also direct commercials and stuff and my mother-in-law is, you know, at the time I started making it was, you know, lives on a sheep farm in rural Minnesota and just all these people were like, oh, has Kai kind of gone off the deep end here? And that's why to me it was like. Just the word telepathy, you can't reduce it to fact or fiction. Let's go look at the stories of these people.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  The science behind this, this is so much bigger than our knee jerk reactions of truth.

• 6:51Jesse Michels?

  I just spoke to Dr. Diane Powell. And in fact, we've been in touch for like a year, year and a half or something. And I've always found her just to be this amazing woman. And she's just a, an impressive combination of extremely open minded, but also extremely rigorous. And so, how did you get in touch with her? You heard her on a podcast, is that right?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  It unfolded by me hearing her on a podcast about, about her research that she'd been doing.

• 7:19Speaker 05

  Today, I'm here with Diane Powell, and we will be focusing on her research on some autistic savants with telepathic abilities.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  And I thought that was fascinating, and I wanted to get on the phone and learn more, and went out to visit her. And, you know, one of the first things I, you know, asked of her was, can you pull up some emails? And obviously not shared names, but like, tell me some of the things that people are saying when they write to you. And that was a very convincing first step for me to witness, is that, you know, this wasn't just something she was talking about, or she studied in a few one offs. I mean, her email box was filled of parents reaching out, saying, I'm finding that my child can read my thoughts, it seems impossible, we've tested it at home, I have no framework for this, can you explain what is happening? And it was a confusion and a wonderment, and sometimes a desperate desperation coming

• 8:12Speaker 01

  from these parents to understand what was going on. And they don't know each other, they're very siloed. And that was the first moment where I thought, okay, there's something very big here.

• 8:23Jesse Michels?

  So how does one go from a traditional academic background to studying autistic children who have high extrasensory perception abilities?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  I learned about autism and savants back in 1986, because I met Oliver Sacks then.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  So Oliver Sacks was a neurologist who wrote, he wrote a lot of different books. One of the books he wrote was Awakenings, about people that had Parkinson's and were given L-dopa for the first time. And all of a sudden, they went from being like frozen statues to suddenly, you know, moving. And there was a movie made about that. And he was somebody that would study these quirky sort of syndromes that told you something about the brain. One of the case reports were about these twins who were institutionalized, who were autistic, who played a game in which they would say prime numbers back and forth to one another. And they'd be consecutive prime numbers. They would be six digits long.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  And there's no algorithm for that. And they just knew these prime numbers. And not only did they know them, they said they just saw them.

• 9:35Jesse Michels?

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• 11:02Jesse Michels?

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• 11:11Speaker 01

  For so many of these families, they are told by the doctors when their child is born and is diagnosed with, you know, non-speaking, often severe autism, that they won't comprehend the world around them, they'll never be able to communicate, they probably won't process information beyond that of a toddler. And so, parents are taken, given, you know, they're, all hope is taken away. And they go through this journey, often not even trying to reach their child, because they've been told by all the quote-unquote "experts" that their kid isn't in there. And what I found really early on were two families, both Mia and another girl, Amelia, who appears in episode seven, that when the parents were homeschooling with COVID and they had to spend off, like, tons of time with their child,

• 11:53Speaker 01

  all of a sudden their child started spelling on iPads, doing things they weren't ever doing in school.

• 11:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  And that's what happened with Mia. And then when she started communicating, at one point, she, then she started having a diary. And in her diary, she said, "I can read my parents' minds." She wrote in her diary that she can read everybody's mind, but you have to believe in her for her to do it. Well, they thought, well, that's impossible. So, her mom asked a few questions, like, what, you know, what am, what am I thinking of right now? And, you know, Mia had spelled "purple umbrella" or something. Or her dad wrote a picture, drew a picture, and what'd I draw a picture of? And she wrote "dog." And that was correct. So, then they started doing more tests and taking books off the wall, opening to a page on the book, a, a, um, page of the book, and what am I reading? And she would spell it out. What, what am I looking at in the book? And she'd spell it out. And that's when they started doing blindfolded popsicle tests with her,

• 12:42Speaker 01

  where they'd have piles and she'd put popsicle sticks. So, they took a bunch of videos of this stuff, sent it to Diane, sent it to me, to kind of pre-vet it, and it was absolutely unbelievable. And they were as concerned and confused as any parent would be. Yeah, to the point, you know, they were deeply Catholic. They live in Monterrey, Mexico. And, and they were worried, what are our neighbors going to feel? Is this evil? Is this, you know, there's all these funny things that get put on telepathy. Not what I've learned through making this is what the non-speakers would say is this is a spiritual gift from God. That is, I think, what every single one would say.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  And, and us, you know, humans in the 3D world trying to map it out for so long have been like, this is the work of something dark. And it couldn't be, that couldn't be further from the truth.

• 13:32Jesse Michels?

  Agreed. And, and so you, she's sending you videos. And you say, I want, I want to see this for myself. And so you put them up at a place in Glendale, and you have completely controlled experimental conditions to remove all confounding variables. And so, tell me if I'm getting this right. So Mia is, you know, sitting next to her mother, and her mother is looking, and Mia's totally blindfolded. And then her mother is looking at a completely random, large assortment of images or numbers. So it'd be extremely low probability if you were to get it right, just on one, in one instance. Is that correct?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:11Jesse Michels?

  And if you were to get it right, you know, over 10 or 20 instances, the quote unquote p-value is what you would call it in science.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:20Jesse Michels?

  Gets to infinitesimally low. Is that somewhat right?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I just want to say something really quick. You know, Dr. Powell wants to do these really scientific airtight tests with Faraday cages and, you know, get this as tight as can be. And we're, we're hoping to do that in the film that, that has been intentional along. These tests, I was kind of creating, so it was as, as concrete as I could make it with like, the limited finances and stuff. But I would say, yes, I think that anyone there would say that we went through every measure. I bought even a brand new iPad to make sure it couldn't be influenced. I downloaded all the random number generators on, on set. So we video that happening. We, we took down all, like I said, TV mirrors, anything reflective. And yeah, like, we were really, we went through pains to make sure

• 15:05Speaker 01

  that there was a divider when Mia was shown a number, and that she was blindfolded. And then we would take the blindfold off, remove the partition. And as far as the numbers, I think we started off small, like three numbers. And then we did four numbers. And then we did five numbers. And it would generate 52763 or whatever. And then she would write it 52763 and it was, it's like, it's like she would never miss, you know, and we did flashcards, some random word generators. We would put colored balls inside of a, you know, a can or something and she'd tell us what color it was. We did popsicle stick tests, which was beyond telepathy because no one's sending information then. It's like, there's a bunch of popsicle sticks and she had a, her mom would hand her random ones to put

• 15:48Speaker 01

  in a pile and she could see them through her blindfold.

• 15:52Jesse Michels?

  Through a perfect blindfold.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:54Jesse Michels?

  Which you had your skeptical colleague, Michael, test. He was like, I cannot see anything through this blindfold.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that was important to me. I mean, Michael's a very dear friend and he's my GP in a lot of my work, but he, he approached this very skeptically.

• 16:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  I mean, more so than even, you know, like me. And, and, and so I had him test the blindfold, you know, and I mean, Michael's certainly had his mind blown. You can't see this stuff and not have your worldview changed forever.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  I mean, I wouldn't do it as a skeptic. I'm generally a skeptic in my life for most things. But to see this, I can't, it's hard for me to not believe this stuff. I'm, I'm looking at everything. I'm watching her. I'm watching the mom. I'm watching, I'm watching everything. And for me and my perspective, it's real.

• 16:46Jesse Michels?

  Michael and any, I think, reasonable listener would say, unless there's some bizarre Morse code that is developed in a way that's extremely high throughput and you can somehow, you know, based on like pokes or something, you know, abstract that out to semantic concepts like, oh, you're looking at a grapefruit on this iPad or something. Quickly, the null hypothesis becomes more fantastical than this child is displaying extremely high rates of telepathy.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that's important for listeners who haven't listened to the show, your listeners, is that You know, so kind of where even where I left off with Mia, you know, so often these parents are told their kids can't learn, which is completely not true. The non-speakers are brilliant individuals inside of there who just cannot control their body. It's a behavior issue, not an intelligence one. So what's learning to spell is meaning, learning to control your body. It's a gross motor skill to point to letters, whereas talking is a fine motor skill. And that's why pointing to letters with a letter board is often a way that unleashes their communication skills. However, because it creates, you have to create new neural pathways to do that, often it takes, and often, this is really important, a lot of non-speakers don't know where their

• 18:02Speaker 01

  bodies are, they don't feel them. I've talked to so many parents who said their children didn't even know they had bodies or didn't know they had fingers. And they didn't get that until they started communicating, right? So to help them spell, it often requires touch in the beginning, and then you sort of start to lighten the touch or move the touch until there's no touch. And in the podcast, I use the metaphor of what my dad taught me how to ride a bike. I needed his whole body on me, you know, helping me. And then it was like less body, less touch, less touch, until finally I was riding the bike. And with Mia, you know, we went out to dinner that I'm before, every time we were on Zoom, her mom would have to touch her shoulder or her head to communicate. It was just what she needed, just the slightest touch helped her. And now her mom is telling me she can do it without it. And that's how most of these kids are.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Some will always need touch, but most will graduate to a point where they don't need it once they're, they have more body control, they feel more sense of where they are. So Mia, when she was doing these tests, had to have one slight touch on her, either her shoulder, her head. And the idea that like some Morse code was going through there to someone who can't feel their body. Yeah. Is ridiculous. And when I brought that up to Michael, I mean, you could just hear his disdain and his laugh of like, that's impossible. Right. That is grasping. And he came in pretty skeptical. He came in very skeptical. Yeah. But you can look at the test, it's not like there's something happening in the finger. Right. I mean, how could you ever convey a number or a random, like you said, a abstract word?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Through Morse code on a.

• 19:33Jesse Michels?

  It's impossible, but I think it's a great first example because she's beyond earnest. And then the stats on what she's producing are just remarkable. And then you actually go on to control for that variable as far as touch, which I think is honestly going the extra mile. Again, maybe even unnecessary, but to the extreme skeptic in the audience should satisfy them. And I think it's important to note too, that Dr. Powell got into this because she actually saw there was initially some data around autistic children displaying, you know, high clairvoyance or telepathy in studies even prior to her. And so there is a body of work. Psychical studies have been going on since the 1870s.

• 20:16Jesse Michels?

  The Society of Psychical Research, you had, you know, Frederick Myers, you had William James. You have, this is a long history.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there was a man named Bernie Rindland, who first kind of came up with the idea that maybe telepathy, but ESP gifts should be a savant skill. And he was noticing it in the autistic population, the severely autistic, non-speaking population. And so I think Dr. Diane was like, okay, there's something to build off of here. And just again, to talk about Diane, when after those tests with Mia, I was, I mean, really shaken. And she's like, they don't, they don't count Kai in terms of science, in terms of the rigorous science that we need to prove this because she was being touched, there can never be touch. And it was like, okay, that's unfair, but I mean, to these poor children and these poor families. You know, I didn't even want Mia's family to hear that.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  They were so wanting, you know, just to be part of this validating process. But then the next episode, we go to a young man named Akil, who lives in New Jersey, who can do the telepathy with his mom across the room.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  Akil, what is this? Oh, yeah. You see, I'm not even looking at him.

• 21:26Speaker 05

  I'm just going to put it away. And then

• 21:32Speaker 05

  accept them.

• 21:35Speaker 05

  Accept, accept, focus.

• 21:39Speaker 05

  Accept. And then

• 21:44Speaker 02

  You're a genius. So Akhil is

• 21:49Speaker 02

  he's one of the children that I had tested before meeting Kai. And

• 21:56Speaker 02

  I met him actually through his mom contacting me after seeing me being interviewed by Deepak Chopra.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  And she's Indian and she, you know, she saw Deepak Chopra interviewing me and said, you know, this is talking about somebody like, just like my son. And so she, she contacted me and I went out and tested her son. And and then, and then later invited, you know, Deepak Chopra to come see it. And he was so blown away.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  How can you tell what these words and numbers are? Because you're not seeing them directly.

• 22:40Speaker 05

  Han.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  Mine knows how to show my mom.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  Na.

• 22:50Speaker 05

  Han.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  Na.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  Ma.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 22:52Speaker 05

  Ai.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  An.

• 22:53Speaker 05

  N.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  Da.

• 22:54Speaker 05

  Di. My mind knows how to show my mom's mind.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  My mind knows how to show my mom's mind. That's quite amazing.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Akhil's mother, Manisha, kept telling me, look, this isn't just telepathy. This is a shared consciousness. There's some sort of merging that goes on. And she was saying things which I couldn't quite understand yet in my process, which was, she felt, you know, He often made me use my hardware or my neurology. Then I thought, oh, what? You know, just really wanting to understand. And so she kept showing me. When I was doing little tests, like, OK. And actually, I love this because I had the crew write a bunch of random words. And I downloaded a random number generator on the spot again, random word generator. We did all this stuff with Akil. And Manisha was kind of like, come on, this is like kid's stuff. Like, let me show you really what this is.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  And so after I was satisfied with, I mean, we must have done 100 tests that day. She was like, OK, now you write a word. So I wrote a word and he'd start saying it verbally. He can kind of communicate through words or he'd start spelling it. And she'd be like, now cross it out and start writing another one. And in the midst of crossing it out, the second it's crossed out and you start even thinking about the next one, he'd start writing the next one. And that's where she's like, do you see what I mean? I'm not even having time to send him this thought of we crossed out car and now it's, I don't remember what it was, piano or something. The second that the next word was starting to be written, he would know.

• 24:24Speaker 05

  One day I was watching a movie of an athlete whose leg was amputated. And he got into a special Olympics. And I went upstairs to tell Akil, Akil, Akil, come, come, luck. I want to show you the story, see how people overcome their difficulties and challenges. He said, yes, I know he doesn't have a leg and he is in Olympics.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Because he was watching the show or something.

• 24:51Speaker 05

  Because I was watching and he was upstairs. So those thoughts can get transferred.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  So she's like, is this a signal of consciousness that we're both sharing? Is he stepping into my own consciousness? Or what is that? And I don't think there is an answer for that yet, except for that is a widespread thing that the parents are talking about.

• 25:12Jesse Michels?

  Yes, you got it. Spelling and the ability to communicate. A lot of people might be watching this and saying, you keep saying nonverbal. How do they communicate at all?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so every, I think the telepathy and the spiritual gifts, I don't know exactly, but I will say I think it's a mark of being a non-speaker. I don't think it has as much to do with autism as it does non-speaking autism. And with the non-speakers, you know, again, so often the doctors, the educators have had it wrong, thinking they're not in there. They are, they're intellectually as solid as you and me, just can't control their bodies. And because they can't create words, which is a fine motor skill, it's pointing to letters, which is, you know, there's different techniques for that. It started with facilitated communication that merged into, you know, turned into something called rapid prompting method. Now there's spelling to communicate. There's different forms of this, of different processes to learn to point to letters.

• 26:05Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  And you do have to learn to be a communication partner, and that's really important. But I found that the colloquial word for all of it is spelling. That's a good umbrella word to talk about all forms of pointing to letters to communicate.

• 26:19Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  And that can be independently on an iPad or with a letter board.

• 26:22Jesse Michels?

  And absurdly, there is some controversy around this format of communication. What is ASHA? And why do they have anything, you know, bad to say about spelling and RPM and some of these other techniques?

• 26:38Speaker 01

  You know, ASHA is the American Speech Language Pathologist. It's the board that gives people accreditation to, to work with language and speech. And ASHA says that spelling is not a valid form of communication. They've called it pseudoscience. It is the most frustrating thing to these parents and to the non-speakers. I mean, I, I can't think of a more, a bigger human rights violation than saying like, you cannot have the means to communicate in your classroom, in a workplace, in a social setting. But when I was doing a deep dive into this, this is fascinating, that sign language, it took like 150 years for that to be accepted.

• 27:20Jesse Michels?

  Is that true?

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Even in the 70s, you weren't, it was not encouraged to be, to do have sign language in school. You had, the people who were hard of hearing or deaf were told that they had to learn to read lips or have like, you know, kind of speakers on their ears, hearing aids. Sign language was not accepted. Louis Braille, who was a young, young boy, who kind of, you know, maybe a preteen when he invented Braille, he was at the first school for the deaf in France at the time. There hadn't, and this was interesting, in France and all over the world at the time, I'm sorry, blind, the, the blind community was seen as not in there, not smart, all the same things that non-speakers are going through. So when Louis Braille was at the

• 28:02Speaker 01

  first school for the blind in France, he, he kind of like enhances this old military kind of coding, and he came up with this idea for Braille. And the, when a new headmaster came into the school, he was like, this is pseudoscience, this isn't real, he locked away all the Braille books, you can't learn this way. And the kids were like, no, this is really great. And they were doing it, you know, in private, but the authorities didn't want Braille to become a thing. And when the kids first tested, you know, showed the authorities, look, I will punch out these letters and this one will read it, and they kind of proved that Braille is working, people in the room watching that were like, that's a magic trick, it's a joke. They obviously practiced this in advance. And so I was reading this, the history of Louis Braille, and thinking, this is exactly what the non-speakers are

• 28:47Speaker 01

  going through. So it makes you wonder why? Why have we always, the, the reigning, you know, communication class has such strict views and restrictions over how someone else can communicate?

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Two.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Two? Good.

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Four.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Four.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  The question that I asked him was, how did you learn all of this? Do you have really good hearing? And he said, I'm special. And I said, oh, of course, you're special. And he said, I can hear thoughts. And I said, bullshit. I questioned him, and I said, are you sure you're telling the truth? And he said to me, you don't get the kind of gifts that I have if you lie. So then I asked him a question in my head without speaking, and he answered the question that I had asked him in my head.

• 29:43Speaker 05

  Then I brought my son and his friend up to witness it. And I had told the young man that was his friend. I said, Kit, get a thought in your head and sit there and don't think anything but that. And Houston spelled out what that young man was thinking. Then I called my daughter and she didn't believe me. She said, no, he can't, Mom. I said, like, send me something. So she had her husband tell her something to text. She texted it to me. He never saw the text and he spelled out what was on the text.

• 30:15Jesse Michels?

  I think the Houston story is incredibly powerful because it's so much later in life. His, his mother is, she's amazing and finds RPM when he's 21 or so. Or, and, or what's the exact story there?

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, you know, Katie was a single mom of five, you know, no help from her ex-husband. A pretty brutal guy. And, and I can't tell you how much, how beautiful of a human being Katie is, you know? But fighting against the world at every turn.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  And it was really difficult because Houston had, the way his autism was expressing himself. I mean, he was biting through his hands, like down to the muscle at times. He was smearing feces on the wall, you know? And Katie could not get through to him, didn't know how to help him. And it was years of just a lot of hardship and trauma. And she's working full time and not getting child support. And, and it was through, I think, what she would definitely describe as a series of miracles of people putting spelling in her path. And she initially thought, well, you don't know because Houston's probably much more different than your child. I'm watching your child sit here calmly in spelling and Houston, he's a different level of autism. Well, that's not true at all, you know? I think she pretty much had given up hope on Houston.

• 31:32Speaker 05

  It took me a very long time to give up hope. A part of me breaks inside to give up.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  She tried everything. Nothing was getting through to him. And I think it was the day before Thanksgiving when Houston was about 18. Katie had, you know, come home from working, like, multiple jobs, like shaking. She was so tired on the sofa. And Houston came and sat down and put his hand on her.

• 31:50Speaker 05

  And he said, Mama?

• 31:54Speaker 05

  And I was shocked because I had never, ever heard my son say my name. He was 17. And I opened my eyes and he was looking directly into my eyes, which he had also never done. And he said, I love you.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  And that moment for her was a miracle. And she's like, wait, he's telling me something. He is in there or he's knowing how I'm feeling. And so then there was a few examples of spelling that came into her path. And then eventually she decided to try it. Houston, at first, when you're learning to spell, it doesn't come quickly. Like often you're pointing to like a board that has six letters. So it's bigger and more spaced out. And then maybe you're answering a question. Is it this or is it that? And they call it getting open on the boards when you first start communicating your own thoughts. And for Houston, I believe that happened when he was about 21. And then it was amazing because she learned he has rich, rich knowledge of American history. He loves American history. Rich knowledge of so much.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  And I mean, Houston's knowledge is phenomenal. And what I've learned from Katie and Houston's story has been paradigm shifting throughout. But you know, even just little things like I'd never understood why people thought like crystals and rocks had magic in them. To me, I was like, this is a cute thing we do as humans, but and I couldn't dismiss it, but I just didn't get it. I didn't believe that. And Katie certainly did not either. And then one day after like a, you know, massage or something, Katie brought home a bunch of like a bag of rocks and crystals. They were behind like her bedroom door, her bathroom door. And Houston comes home and like knocks through all doors and finds the rocks and crystals.

• 33:31Speaker 05

  Houston started shouting, stones, stones, stones. And he wouldn't stop. And so I just was like, here, take them. I mean, I didn't know what to do. Anyway, I went into his room a little bit later and he had lined these three stones up on his bedside table on the very edge. And he was lying on the very edge of his bed as close as he could get to these stones.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  He felt all the energy coming from them and he could name which each one was and felt the frequency of each.

• 34:02Speaker 05

  And he started spelling. When you're autistic, you're a magnet for all energy, good and bad. These stones have good energy.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  I need more good energy. And you know, Katie has other stories of coming home and buying like crystals for a, I think it was her son-in-law, hiding like dice, redensions and dragons or something. And like Houston like came home from school and found those because he could like hear them or feel the energy. And stuff like that made me realize, okay, so if I dismissed telepathy and that's real and I dismissed the power of crystals and that's real, what else have we dismissed that we, we think of as woo-woo or, you know, this airy-fairy stuff and it's, it is true. They call this one Bill.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  Whoa, aliens? Am I in a spaceship?

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Affirmative, Bill.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  What's with the laser saw? An Xfinity Mobile transmission says you can cut your bill in half. Oh, your mobile bill, not me bill.

• 34:55Speaker 07

  Xfinity Internet members, cut your mobile bill in half. Plus, try Xfinity Mobile free for a year. No commitment. Learn more at XfinityMobile.com. Restrictions apply. Savings compares one line of Xfinity Mobile Select to comparable plans from T-Mobile, Verizon and AT&T as of 3/24/26. Taxes, fees extra. $30 monthly discount limited to new mobile customers only. After 12 months, regular rates apply.

• 35:12Jesse Michels?

  I want to stick with, with Houston, who's so remarkable. So he, he lives in Atlanta, right? And there's kind of a cohort in, in Atlanta. Do you want to talk about Houston's friends and where they hang out?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I want to say, I think these cohorts are everywhere. It was just, you know, through, through Katie and Houston, I was led into this Atlanta cohort, you know? But, but there's cohorts everywhere. So that's, and, but one of the most beautiful, unbelievable things, that at first it started with Akil and that's apparent in episode two where he says, he said, every non-speaker has this gift. And I kind of thought, wow, well, that's quite a statement, you know? But then I went to go meet Katie and Houston and that's in episode three and Houston repeats that every non-speaker has this gift. And revealed that he, and Houston's the one that coined this term, this, the Talk on

• 36:07Speaker 01

  the Hill, which was this telepathic chatroom where non-speakers can tune in and communicate with each other. And that was hard to believe. And then, you know, Katie's like, well, you need to meet my dear friend Libby and her son, John Paul. John Paul goes on the Hill and we went to their house and John Paul went on the Hill and it was really cool. He went into his room and he put a bunch of pillows on his head. And Livy, who's just like such a dear, again, like beautiful human being, was just like, this is what he does. After school, he'll do this. And he says he's on the Hill. And I've learned about it now that he's communicating with the latter board. And he's really formed relationships there. And she's like, in fact, like, there was a young man, his name is Zahari, and he was born blind in an orphanage and was adopted, you know,

• 36:52Speaker 01

  later in life and whatever. But Zahari was bringing Zahari to Georgia. He'd never met John Paul, but when Zahari walked into the house, he's like, hey, John Paul, blah, blah. They had this whole relationship, and they said it had been built on the Hill. Wow. And so, and I say this in the series, it took me a long time to form my opinion or understanding of the Hill. And I don't want to say a belief in it, but like, maybe it was a belief in it. It was just so hard to believe, you know? And then there were so many people from disparate places talking about the Hill. One was a minister I met at a megachurch. I didn't meet him in person, but I talked to him on the phone, and his name is Joe. And he was saying that some of his kids in his youth group were talking

• 37:37Speaker 01

  about the Hill. He runs like a special needs youth group. And would talk, they'd set them up with like other non-speakers in other places, and the kids would talk about the Hill. You know, and then I met a teacher in Chicago, and her kids were talking about the Hill. And it's just phenomenal. And then Arthur Golden, who's a dear advisor and has been such a help on this whole project as well, and he's got a non-speaking son, Ben Golden, and they live in a very ultra-orthodox community in Israel, they have their own Hill. Wow. And I've heard of Hills in Arizona, Florida. So I don't think there's just one. Yeah. And that's one thing I want to understand, and I will seek that question with the non-speaker advisory board and further in the film. Is the Hill just this part of this collective

• 38:21Speaker 01

  consciousness where we can all hang out? Is it like a separate place that you can go to? Yeah. To share ideas? How many hills are there? Or is it just all one hill, but you just find each other? Like if you go to a party or at different parts of the room, you know? But you're in the same place?

• 38:36Jesse Michels?

  Have you and Dr. Powell done any tests when it comes to information transmission remotely on this kind of hill?

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Well, that's what we want to do. So that's, we're kind of coming up with our list of dream tests for the film project. And her storyline in the film, I want to culminate with these tests, right? And, and one will be the telepathic, you know, message sending in a controlled way behind partitions and with blindfolds. And the other would be having two or three non-speakers in different locations to communicate together via the hill and try to validate what each is coming back with and saying.

• 39:14Jesse Michels?

  What you just said about Houston kind of just reminded me of this amazing story that you tell of Josiah. Do you want to tell this, this story? Josiah and Max Davis?

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, and he's got a book, Josiah's Fire. So that's another really good one. But Max Davis is an author and, and Josiah's mom started working on a book. So this is like, just pocket Max Davis for a second. So Josiah's mom, when Josiah started spelling, was absolutely floored by the amount of spiritual messages he was saying.

• 39:48Speaker 05

  His first ever independent sentence was the most mind-blowing miraculous thing because he had not spelled anything beyond three to five letter words.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  So what was his first sentence?

• 40:01Speaker 05

  God is a good gift giver.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  He was saying that, you know, he was communicating with angels. He said he was going to heaven.

• 40:08Speaker 05

  How do you know that? And he spells A-U, and I'm thinking he's going to spell autism or something. He goes on to spell A-U-N-T-I-E. Auntie told an angel to tell me.

• 40:22Speaker 05

  Auntie was my great aunt, and she died at age 89. Josiah, as far as I know, had never heard us talk of Auntie. He wouldn't have known Auntie. He wouldn't have seen pictures of Auntie. How did he know Auntie?

• 40:37Speaker 01

  He knew things about a past relative Auntie that, you know, and was communicating for Auntie. And this was just unbelievable.

• 40:44Jesse Michels?

  And they had never told them about Auntie, right?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  No, uh-uh, no. So again, it was just unbelievable messages that there's no way Josiah should know. And I think at the time, he was seven or eight. And, you know, again, the parents are not taking this at face value. They're often trying to figure out this mystery as well and trying to prove it and validate it. And like, what are they talking about? And here's a picture and who's this, you know, that type of stuff. So, and again, before the telepathy tapes came out, I think that many of these parents were living in their own silo, thinking they were unique in this experience. So she talked to Josiah's spelling communication teacher and said, you know, he's talking about going to heaven and seeing angels and communicating with spirits who passed. And, and the teacher was like, that's his special interest, you know? Go on, you know? And, and the mom, you know, uh, Toni was thinking, this is not a special interest. This is something very big.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  So she writes a book to, to put this out there. Is there anyone else out there experiencing this? And of course, she's flooded with people saying, yes, this is our story. Well, anyway, in the very precursor of writing this book, she was working with a, you know, kind of a ghostwriter. And she's on a call with the ghostwriter one day, and the, the writer, you know, said something about another author she was working with, Max Davis.

• 41:50Speaker 05

  And Josiah comes home from school later on that day, and he starts spelling something very profound about somebody. I have no clue who he's even talking about. And then all of a sudden, he uses this phrase that links back to the conversation that I was having earlier with Cheryl about this guy, Max. He writes all this stuff about Max, like, he's a major novel writer. He doesn't write like other people do. He was talking about how his house was popping, popping, popping. And then he says, are you a barn man, Max? Like, there's animals or there's a farm by you.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Well, the writer goes and tells Max, and Max is really weirded out because the things are on point. It was about what was happening in his house, like this popping noise and he was building a house. It was about being close to animals and like, does he live on a farm or is there a barn nearby? And it turns out that, you know, yes, there is like a barn right next to his property with tons of animals on it.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  I'm thinking this lady's loony. She's trying to get something from me. It actually made her cry because I'm a skeptic. So that's how it began.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  It bothers Max because he's going, what? How does this person know this? Because they were building a new house and it was popping, popping, popping. They were using the nail guns.

• 43:19Jesse Michels?

  He goes to a motel and it's like, you know, you love your motel time or something. And he takes a nap. It's like a nap is nice.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:27Jesse Michels?

  And then it's something about the, like, his chapter was the fruit of something.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  So, so the first story there was this, this understanding. So, Tony writes to Max, Max is totally weirded out, thinks she's on Google Chat, you know, I mean, Google Earth looking at this. And then the next one is Josiah says, you know, Max went into the woods and was praying last night. And, and that was like really freaked out Max. And then it's, he started to believe. And then the next one was this message from Josiah when Max went to go right at this private motel on the beach on the thing, the Gulf of Mexico where he does this. He, he makes a mixtape and he listens to the mix and stuff. And Josiah wrote something about your music is being banded together. You love your sacred time at the motel.

• 44:08Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  And, and Max, by this point is like, oh my gosh. And then another time, he's behind on a deadline for a book he's writing. He stays home, he takes a nap and he begged his wife to miss all the appointments for the day and to work with him. And anyway, he takes a nap. He stays up really late, late and he gets this entire chapter called First Fruits out.

• 44:27Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  And then Josiah writes the next day, you know, I hope your nap was nice. Your hands were like night braille on, you know, something like that, like the spirit of night braille on your fingertips kept you through the night. And you got, I hope first fruit, some things. Like, he knew all the facts and I don't have the quote in front of me, so I'm butchering what he said. But the point is, he knew about the nap. He knew about the name of the chapter.

• 44:49Jesse Michels?

  Without Max having any communication.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  No, no. You know, and Josiah was a pretty young, you know, he was a boy at the time.

• 44:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  And so, no, like, these things were happening privately with Max. No one knew, and then Josiah knew. And, you know, a beautiful part of the story that I didn't put into the podcast, just because there's the length, you have to edit some stuff. But, you know, Max went to go visit Josiah at some point. And I think he was a little, you know, like, it was a good awakening for him because Josiah, like, didn't want to come up his room, you know? He was having difficulty regulating. He was having a very hard time spelling that day. He was probably excited. But Max really had this realization of how difficult it is to, to control often, you know, your body as a, as a, as a non-speaker.

• 45:41Jesse Michels?

  I want to talk about John Paul, who befriends Houston, and I think is the most moving part of this whole story. He's this gentle giant. Do you want to talk about John Paul? JP?

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, John Paul, he was such a presence, you know? Gigantic, like, 6'8". I think when I met John Paul, he was 14 or 15. And, yeah, he was like a younger brother to Houston, you know? John Paul made a lot of loud noises, you know? He was just this big guy. He loved putting stuff in his head and, like, dropping it off. And, you know, it was just funny. I mean, he was, ah, gosh. And so, and John Paul's mother just loves him so unconditionally, and it was so beautiful to be in their home because John Paul would often strip off his clothes and just appear. And I think so many of us, when we're going through the world, are constantly apologizing for other people.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  And, you know, and Libby just never, just embraced John Paul. Like, there he is, John Paul, put on your clothes. Like, you know, this is our house. You're just getting used to that. Like, I loved it because it was just this, like, unbelievable joy wrapped of, like, I just accept him. I love him for exactly who he is. And, and I looked at Libby and I was like, gosh, I want, and all these parents actually, just like, they're such a great template of how to love your children.

• 47:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Because so many of us don't love our kids unconditionally, but I think all these parents do in a different way than most of us can imagine.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  And I don't know if I should say what happens to John Paul in this because I don't know if I should. I want people to watch.

• 47:16Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Or listen.

• 47:17Jesse Michels?

  Which episode?

• 47:18Speaker 01

  It's in nine.

• 47:19Jesse Michels?

  Nine.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  The kind of like, I would say my finale, like how I concluded the story was with episode nine, and that has deeply to do with John Paul. And I think through John Paul, for me, that was proof of afterlife.

• 47:32Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  In the most profound, beautiful way. And my dad, who was a huge skeptic walking into this, called me yesterday and he's like, "I am walking through a cemetery with a whole new take on this." He's like, "I'm not feeling sad. I'm just so aware that like, people survive." And that was after I listened to episode nine and I thought, "Wow, Dad. Okay, good. If I got to you, then maybe we'll get to other people." And so I don't want to explain exactly what happens with John Paul, but it might be obvious from what I'm saying that he has quite a message for all of us at the end.

• 48:06Jesse Michels?

  Everybody go listen to it because I was crying on a plane. I was listening to it and it was just so profound and moving and it'll make anybody, yeah, question, you know, our conception of life and reality. And yeah, just go listen to it. So John Paul has a girlfriend and they have this beautiful bond. And it's almost like, you know, if you watch Love on the Spectrum, that's so refreshing because it's this like, just, there's no BS, there's no deception, no gamesmanship between these relationships. I feel like John Paul and Lily and these non-verbal kids take it to the next level where they

• 48:48Jesse Michels?

  say that their kind of telepathic bond increases, their love for each other.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, can you imagine like sharing everything about one another telepathically? And I remember asking Libby once because she said, you know, "They go on dates or I'll pick them up here and they'll go on a date." And I said, "What does that look like?" And she's like, "Well, often they'll be on different floors of the house." And but they're communicating, they're doing something. And then when and then when they leave, John Paul will be like, that was the best day ever.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  And and I thought that was just so sweet. I mean, they he adores Lily, Lily adores John Paul. I mean, their love was real and it was enhanced deeply by, you know, being on the hill and being able to have mind to mind communication. And, you know, Lily's in the in the in the season and, you know, she says that that was from the get go, their mind to mind communication.

• 49:41Jesse Michels?

  They call this one Bill.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Whoa, aliens? Am I in a spaceship?

• 49:45Jesse Michels?

  Affirmative, Bill.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  What's with the laser saw?

• 49:47Jesse Michels?

  An Xfinity Mobile transmission says you can cut your bill in half.

• 49:52Speaker 00

  Oh, your mobile bill, not me bill.

• 49:53Speaker 07

  Xfinity Internet members, cut your mobile bill in half. Plus, try Xfinity Mobile free for a year. No commitment. Learn more at XfinityMobile.com. Restrictions apply. Savings compares one line of Xfinity Mobile Select to comparable plans from T-Mobile, Verizon and AT&T as of 3/24/26. Taxes, fees, extra. $30 monthly discount limited to new mobile customers only. After 12 months, regular rates apply.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  JP, you know, is this amazing character. He's sort of larger than life and he's also very, you know, big kid who's described in the telepathy tapes. And he has a girlfriend named Lily. And he seems like this just very sweet, loving character. And he's friends with this other guy named Houston and they all meet up on the hill. Can you talk a little bit about JP? Because I find his story to be possibly the most touching, just from a personal perspective. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, he was larger than life. I think he was like six foot eight. Mm hmm. And and he liked, there was this game he liked to play where he loved, you know,

• 50:54Speaker 02

  like I drink a lot of water, you know, and I had, you know, he loves to grab you, he'd love to grab your bottle of water and put it on his head and then drop it on you.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  So anyway, so he, you know, he was a character. And he had twin brother who, not an identical twin brother, his brother's neurotypical. And, and his mother is a speech-language therapist.

• 51:20Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Who, you know, was basically told, I mean, this is like, what she's doing, what's doing with her son is like forbidden, you know, it's like, you know, because, you know, the people that Asha, you know, the Speech Therapist Association basically says that, you know, spelling is, you know, an RPM, you know, these different methods that use, you know, pointing to letters as a, you know, considered a form of communication that, you know, that it's not recognized.

• 51:51Jesse Michels?

  Why is that? It's so absurd. Why is it not recognized?

• 51:55Speaker 02

  I'm the wrong person to ask. I mean, I could, it's political. Yeah, it's, I mean...

• 52:01Jesse Michels?

  If a kid is being, is able to point at letters and spell something out, why is that not seen as a valid form of communication, especially if cogent sentences are coming out on the other side of that?

• 52:12Speaker 02

  You know, it really, it really, it really surprised me that it really is, that that's controversial. And, I mean, it really saddens me, too.

• 52:22Jesse Michels?

  Of course. Yeah, you're, you're kind of putting a child back in a cage of isolation without these techniques.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, but yes, it's, it's really, if you were to go to, you know, go to the internet, you know, look up, you know, spelling, spelling to communicate or whatever, look at what, you know, it says in Wikipedia or whatever, and you'll say that, you know, something along the lines that it's pseudoscience, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll see those kinds of remarks, you know, that...

• 52:54Jesse Michels?

  How about...

• 52:54Speaker 02

  It's attacked. And so it's like, wow, if they're gonna, and this is part of why I also have been doing my own thing without being as public about it, you know, until more recently, is that, it's like, if, boy, if they're gonna attack that even...

• 53:10Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy, yes.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Then, you know, boy, what are they gonna think about the rest of all this?

• 53:15Jesse Michels?

  Right, the actual telepathic communication. Yeah, if they're gonna attack just the communication ability, I mean... I just don't understand how you can dispute something where somebody is clearly expressing things that like means something in reality and serve, you know, certain objectives, whether it's like, "I'm thirsty, get me water," or, you know, whatever. The second that that becomes like this, you know, clearly adaptive, useful form of communication, how do you write that off? Especially when you're talking about a kid who is silenced otherwise as far as their ability to interface with the real world, or with our real world. You know, it's just, it seems inhumane.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Well, it does. And so, and one of the problems is, is that some of the people who've been the most against the idea of telepathy coming out have been people who are part of the spelling community. And, and so, it's one of those things where you'll never, you know, whoever it is, you'll never, you'll never make progress in advocating for your rights if people are able to divide you. So, anyway, but so, John Paul, though, you know, good friends with Houston. And, you know, and the two of them have this telepathic communication with one another. They live in Atlanta.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  And, and John Paul has a girlfriend, you know, named Lily, you know? And, and so, and seeing the love that these kids have towards their parents and that their parents have towards them is incredibly, you know, it just touches your heart.

• 55:03Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  It really does. And it's coming across in the podcast. You can only imagine how it comes across in...

• 55:11Speaker 02

  You know, when you've got, you know, the whole, you know, experience of it, you know, not just hearing the voices.

• 55:19Jesse Michels?

  I think, you know, like a governor that you would place on an engine?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 55:23Jesse Michels?

  I feel like a governor has been placed on reality.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:26Jesse Michels?

  And like, that's coming off.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:28Jesse Michels?

  And I think what you get in its place is it's almost like a Hydra situation. You cut off one head, you get five others. And or a Cambrian explosion of ideas and possibilities. And so I think people assume that, you know, when you, when you get into a new paradigm or something, like one thing changes.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 55:46Jesse Michels?

  But no, I mean, everything changes and this makes total sense. I mean, it's fascinating to see how energetically sensitive these kids are and Houston being a great example. Doesn't he go to like Stone Mountain or something as well, which he loves because of the, the energy there?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And we hiked up Stone Mountain when we were in Atlanta. Even Dr. Powell came with, like, we all hiked up Stone Mountain and Houston gets to the top of Stone Mountain and it's just so free and you can feel like he is feeling all this energy, which made me think this non-speakers center that we create maybe should go on top of a mountain, you know? But no, he feels so much. And, and I think what most of the parents would say and the non-speakers would say as well is that it has to do with them being less tied to their body. They're less, less bound to the physical world than us. And so they're more open to the things that I think are natural, they're not supernatural, they're what surround us, but they have more, an easier access to it.

• 56:43Jesse Michels?

  I couldn't agree more. And it's funny, in virtual reality and in lucid dreaming, which you could think of as its own sort of weird simulation, seeing your hands is this like really important test for your ability to embody in the, the bound simulation. And so they often feel a little disembodied or like they don't, they're not quite, you know, sensing their own bodies.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Jesse Michels?

  And I think the normal, you know, conventional view is, oh, that's handicapped. But in fact, There's a filtering or a reduction going on and a greater understanding when you are embodied and when you are in the simulation. And so, being able to dip outside of that simulation is a profound, amazing skill. And if you look at the history of humanity, there's a great book called The Immortality Key by this guy Brian Murrescu, and he talks about these mystery rituals that everybody would undergo. And it's sort of the temporary paralysis of the physical body in order to, you know, reach your primordial spirit and know that there is something more here.

• 57:55Jesse Michels?

  And it feels like these kids know that in a way that is so much more like, you know, real, true knowledge, gnosis, if you will, than like the average person kind of walking around. And that brings up this book, which you were so nice to give, and I'm just so honored to have, and this is Katie and Houston, and it's The Book of Heaven, and they signed it for me, which was so sweet of them. And it really feels like they have a conviction in metaphysics that we just relegate to mythology. We just, we call these things sort of myths that, you know, maybe that you go to church

• 58:35Jesse Michels?

  or you go to synagogue or whatever, and you, you know, or a mosque, and you go through the motions or whatever, you don't really believe that there's something there. They know that there's something there.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I would say that's true of every, everyone who's working in an intimate way with a non-speaker, at least that I've met, I can't, obviously, have a huge brush, but every single person I've met, and hundreds and hundreds of people emailing now with their stories, is that to work intimately with a non-speaker is to be able to beautifully see the worlds, they can access the realms, they can access, which me saying something like that two years ago would have made me laugh out loud, that I'd be on an interview talking about realms. They can access realms that we can't access. They can see beings that we can't, whether, you know, I think some will call them divine beings, some will call them light beings, some will call them angels.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  And certainly spirits of those who have passed. That is often as common or comes before the telepathy knowledge.

• 59:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  And all of that stuff was, of course, paradigm shattering.

• 59:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm a nonfiction documentary filmmaker. That was absolutely what is happening. You know, there was like a lot of shots of whiskey along the way. Lots, lots of books, just, okay, now I have to read and read and read and read and read to really understand this more.

• 59:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  And it's, it's real. It's real. It is happening.

• 1:00:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  And what's so beautiful is you can't, that's why like if someone now, I talk about this, I was so bashful, like I said in the beginning, talking about this. And now if I'm talking about it and someone's skeptical or doesn't believe it, I'm just kind of like, oh, you're just like a flat earther. You know, you're, you're stuck in the old paradigm. Bless your heart, you know?

• 1:00:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  And, and I really do feel that way.

• 1:00:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  I mean, once, there's so, some people living right now that see how much more there is. And, and I love that the non-speakers, these unbelievable people who've been dismissed and marginalized and cast aside are, are guides in this. And I think that's the most beautiful thing.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  And, and, and because their message is one of love and one of unity.

• 1:00:49Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  And it's so beautiful to me because it comes back to if we look into antiquity of a lot of our religions and faiths and all of that comes back to love and unity. And, and again, like you said, you kind of just like go to church, you go to synagogue, you go to, you know, mosque and you're like, oh, love. And like, how many people actually believe in love and unity or practice it in some way? You know, and at the end of the day, that's all that I've heard the spellers want to talk about.

• 1:01:13Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Is, is love and unity. And, and even, this was really profound, and I'm still getting to grips with this. So often they'd say, you know, it's not just your thoughts we hear, it's your feelings that we feel.

• 1:01:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  And all the feelings that you put out to the world are being received and like made manifest.

• 1:01:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  And One speller, and this is going to be in episode 10, even said, if you don't know what your feelings are and you can't process them, like often we're doing that work for you, and that dysregulates us. I don't care what you're feeling, you need to know what you're feeling. Because if you know what you're feeling, you can regulate it and actualize it and calm yourself. And if you think about that, if they're feeling, hearing our thoughts, many of these non-speakers, as they say, but also feeling our feelings, I mean, of course that would dysregulate a human being.

• 1:02:04Jesse Michels?

  Totally. And this so comports with, I mean, like, Gabor Maté's work, where like, you know, basically, anybody would intuit as far as like a parent, you know, kid relationship, where you do immediately just absorb your parents' energy.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Jesse Michels?

  And it's fascinating to hear that explicitly articulated, because I think anybody listening will latently kind of know that. Like, you are kind of embodying a lot of your earliest experiences. And you can kind of synthesize this scientifically with like the Harlow monkey test, or whatever, where, you know, if the mother isn't present, and there isn't the, you know, the necessary kind of tactile kinesthetic, you know, touch, you know, that can have profoundly bad effects.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Jesse Michels?

  And so it just sounds like they're on another level of sensitivity to this. And it makes sense, right? Because our communication, you know, it's prosaic to say that most human communication is a 95% sublinguistic body language, or whatever. And there's probably opportunity cost in the language itself.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Jesse Michels?

  And language allows for deception, it allows for myth-making, and all sorts of confusion. And if you're just cutting that out,

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:22Jesse Michels?

  and you're going straight to the source,

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Jesse Michels?

  that feels like the true language. The final thing I'll say is there's, there are apparently non-verbal tribes in the Amazon. Are you aware of this?

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Jesse Michels?

  And they, they experience very similar things. And they even call it the ancient language, where they beam information to each other. And sometimes they'll have language.

• 1:03:43Jesse Michels?

  On top of that, but they'll go back to the ancient language. And that's like the low latency, real communication.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, even in the, in the show, the telepathy tapes, there's a young man, Asher, who, who was a verbal autist. He had words and he's eventually decided not to use them because they were cumbersome and difficult. And so many will say like, we'll actually write about letters, like our obsession with using letters and like words. And, and they are dishonest. How many times when someone says, how are you? Would you answer that completely dishonestly? I think it's like 80% of the time, you know? And so it's like, if you can just, Kyle, who's a wonderful man and, and a non-speaker in England, like at some point conveyed that, or maybe his mother did, that if, if you say the word, you know, Thanksgiving or Christmas or something to someone, you say a word. But if Kyle sends

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  that message to you telepathically, you receive the smells and the feelings and the music and the love and the family and the taste of the food and the decorations, you receive all of it. It's a knowing, like you said, a complete knowing. And when I've talked to the non-speakers about like, what, you know, again, I'm going through the episode 10 right now, which is what they want us to do with this knowledge. I mean, so many of them are like, if you guys could all kind of get to this telepathic place, that'd be great. It'd really evolve us. And, you know, I think we are all capable of it because there's glimpses where we've had it, right? Where you know someone is sick and you, or you're thinking about someone right before they call. We know it's there.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

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• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Who is Amelia? So she's this, she's this little girl who lives in Wisconsin, whose mother contacted me. And, and she had taken her daughter to the, you know, the Trefford Center there, you know, because that's where Darryl Trefford, who was, you know, the person who was consultant on Rain Man. I mean, that, you know, that's where he was, and that was his center. And so I'd take her daughter there to be evaluated because she has all of these different abilities, you know, knowing different languages, you know. And she's, in addition to being telepathic with her mother.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  And, and she's one of the, she's one of the girls who said that she related to a unicorn. And she, you know, wrote this story about how she, how she was, you know, she called it an ugly horse, you know, that people thought wasn't smart, you know, and said that, you know, that she was a unicorn.

• 1:06:44Jesse Michels?

  Oh, man, then she's probably talking about her self-perception based on what other people sort of think of her, when in fact she is, she is this beautiful, amazing unicorn.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's, yeah, she's this beautiful, amazing child. And yet, at the time she wrote that poem, her self-esteem was affected because she perceives what other people's impressions are about her. I mean, you know, that's the downside of being so psychic is that you, you, you are injured even when people aren't saying anything by virtue of them thinking things about you.

• 1:07:26Jesse Michels?

  That's so amazing. Yeah, because you just, you know their conception of you without even that needing to be articulated.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  Exactly. So people can think, oh, well, I treat, you know, people who are disabled, you know, with respect or this or that. But they, they're just thinking of their outward behavior. And they, they don't, they don't realize that these, these children pick up on what you, you know.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Really think.

• 1:07:51Jesse Michels?

  Tell us about Amelia, because I find her to be fascinating and maybe among the most conventionally regarded as just academically gifted of all of these examples.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean Amelia is little still. She's 10, you know, and, and I, I love all these moms. So I'm going to say this about every single mom, but you know, I love her mom, Maura, and, and she felt really familiar to me because you know, I'm from the Midwest. I only moved from Chicago to Los Angeles about six years ago. And you know, they're Midwestern, you know, they're located in the Midwest and her mom, Amelia's mom, works in copywriting and ad agency and the dad's former military, you know, they just felt like very like, yes, like, I understand you very much. You feel like my brothers and sisters and friends from high school. And you know, when Maura was kind of first starting to understand that Amelia was in there, again, it was related to COVID. She was at home with COVID. She saw, I mean,

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  not with COVID, they were home during COVID, homeschooling, and she discovered that Amelia was in there and could spell, and then that she could read her mind, and then that she was seeing stuff that Maura, the mother, couldn't see. She could see spirits and ghosts. And then she started saying that she knew other languages and she could identify hieroglyphics and knew Hebrew and Portuguese and Spanish.

• 1:09:07Jesse Michels?

  So remarkable.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Ally showed Amelia some Hebrew and Amelia read it and translated it. So Ally showed her again today and Amelia typed out what it meant. I said, but who taught you Hebrew? And she typed the rabbi. Then I asked if there was anything else she could read. She wrote hiero. I said, hieroglyphics? And she wrote, yes, pictures. So Ally pulled up a few letters and we showed them to Amelia and she knew what letters that were written in hieroglyphics. And they were ones that they hadn't looked up the meaning of yet. They just pulled them up and identified them after. Ally asked her if she saw these letters before, if it was the first time and she wrote first time. I asked her who told her about hieroglyphics and she said, the God told.

• 1:09:47Jesse Michels?

  The hieroglyphics part.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  I know. I know.

• 1:09:50Jesse Michels?

  If anything shows that there's another epistemic pathway, way of knowing, than just like, reading a book, like the kind of inductive, like, ah, it's going to take like two years to like learn baseline Spanish or whatever. Amelia is the perfect example.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Well, and one thing I love about Amelia and Maura and I, I mean, all the parents get this. We all understand the layers of skeptics that are going to be out there and how you need to prove it by. Or validated at least by having other people witness it. And what's beautiful in all these stories, many, many, many, many people witness it. What I love in Amelia's case is the school, her teachers, her therapists, the principal, all witnessed this, all have experienced this, all know it. And it wasn't the mother, Maura, there when she was talking about hieroglyphics. It was her, you know, I think it was like her spelling therapist and her babysitter or something. I don't remember the exact people in the room right at this moment, but it was two people. And they, they know about the mind reading, so they're being very careful, like, okay, show her hieroglyphic image that we don't know what it is, because otherwise she'll

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  pluck it from her mind instead of just proving that she knows it. And these are the gymnastics that the families and the teachers, and now I am also doing with the kids is off, or I don't want to say the kids, the non speakers, is often it's like, wait, do they know that? Are they picking it from my mind? So you've got to clear your mind or not know what you're showing them. So they did that with hieroglyphics and sure enough, she would say what each one was and then they'd look it up and it was what she said it was. So how do you make sense of that unless there's more going on?

• 1:11:19Jesse Michels?

  There's definitely more going on. She attributes it to the gods at times.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Or God, yeah.

• 1:11:25Jesse Michels?

  Or God teaching her at night.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  She's talked about a rabbi coming.

• 1:11:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  She's talked about God. She said, she said an angel has taken her to see God. She said gods once or twice.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  And at one point, I think she talked about the Dalai Lama as well. So just this beautiful, you know, like, like group of traditional spiritual leaders and prophets, if you will.

• 1:11:52Jesse Michels?

  I need to get into that classroom. That's, that's the best group of teachers you could do. That's amazing.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and, and like I said, she's not the only one that will say those messages. And again, like the first time. You know, Amelia said it. I mean, Maura and I, her mom and I would like be zooming and talking on the phone a lot. And we'd be like, what does that mean? Like, do you think she meant that? Or what? I mean, just we're both trying to process it, too.

• 1:12:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  And what's so beautiful about Maura is she, she was saying, she's like, you know, I don't go to church that often. I didn't take Amelia to church. It's not like she's getting this from us, you know, or, or the, or the synagogue, or, you know, a Buddhist temple. It's like, where was this coming from?

• 1:12:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I can imagine this whole experience of the telepathy tapes coming out is cathartic for you because you've probably spent a lot of your career trying to get off home plate as far as scientific consensus, even taking this seriously. And now there's just, you know, all these different avenues you can explore as far as the implications and getting deeper as far as, you know, causal mechanisms for how this stuff works. Whereas before it was probably just like, hey, guys, this is real. Like, look over here.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 1:13:07Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing. And I want to make something very clear as well for the audience. We're practically anonymizing these kids and families. We're just using first names. There's no 15 seconds of fame motive here.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:13:22Jesse Michels?

  None of them have been paid, is that right?

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  No, of course not. No.

• 1:13:24Jesse Michels?

  So it's like, and then you have, in Amelia's case, like, her Spanish teacher is like, yeah, I don't know what to say. She knows more Spanish than my kids.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Jesse Michels?

  And so, yeah, it's, it's just remarkable.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Jesse Michels?

  And, uh, yeah, I just, I do think it's important for the average listener to just know that there is no incentive whatsoever being provided for these kids. It's really about allowing their voices to be heard.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think the families and I have a few deeply shared goals. And I mean, I have these goals because they do, right? And one is for the world to presume competence. You see a non-speaker, you can say hi to them. And it can be in your mind, too. Hey, I know you're in there, like, great shoes, whatever. It doesn't matter. Just treat them as you would someone else, you know? Presume competence. Let's validate spelling and get into schools. This is not pseudoscience. It's complicated. There's a beautiful, I think, spiritual element to it. I think that when you understand what the non-speakers are capable of, and they might dip into our neurology, or they might even use their parents' eyes, that stuff does make spelling complex and fascinating and interesting. It doesn't mean it should be disregarded. It means we have to meet the spellers where they're at and let them communicate.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  And I think the third is the paradigm shift is that we are not acting as we should be as human beings. We need to be meeting each other with love and acceptance and unity, and those aren't just silly words. And I think what I have learned from them is to understand that your consciousness survives death and our thoughts and our feelings become manifest in this world. And if we can control those things, how much will change the earth in which we're living?

• 1:15:07Jesse Michels?

  We are fully audited at all times by whatever communication modality we're talking about right now. And if we were to really not just, you know, clean up our room, make our bed, but like, look inside, I think everybody would say they have work to do. And I think that would make us a lot more compassionate and forgiving when it comes to other people, because everybody's got stuff they've got to work through. And it's so interesting and ironic that we call many of these kids, you know, disabled or different than when in fact, on that dimension, which is probably the most important dimension, they're like way more advanced than all of us.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. No, we have the disability.

• 1:15:49Jesse Michels?

  That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:52Jesse Michels?

  That's so amazing. And it brings up all sorts of questions that you kind of discuss in episode one and two as well. It's like, how is this happening? What is the method of transmission? And this is, we should caveat, all speculative. We don't know. What we do know is that this is happening in a statistically significant way, needs to be taken seriously by science. But it's interesting. I have a good friend, actually, who was at the Princeton parapsychology lab.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:16:20Jesse Michels?

  And he would always use the term remote perception instead of remote viewing. And I'd always be like, what are you talking about, remote perception? Like, why is that like a distinction at all?

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Jesse Michels?

  And I do notice in both Mia and Akil's case, they have a particular connection with one of the parents, where it's almost this low latency mind meld.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Jesse Michels?

  And so, yeah, do you want to speak to that?

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. You know, because I, again, like, as important as the studies are for skeptics and stuff like that, the stuff that really... Moved me to the point of completely cracking up in my paradigm was hearing what the parents would talk about. So one of the things that Manisha talked about was, look, this isn't, again, just sending information. I could be watching a movie upstairs and he could be, or downstairs, and he could be in a whole nother room of the house, you know, playing on his iPad, can't hear anything, and I could come back up and he'll tell me exactly what happened in this movie. Or she said, or I could be reading a book, and you read books silently to yourself, and she would ask Akil later a question about what she'd just read in the book, and he could answer correctly. Like, where does this character

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  live? And he'd write, you know, San Diego, or whatever. And, or she'd say, you know, I could be away at school, he'd be at school, and I'd go run errands, and I'd come home, and he'd come home from school, and he'd say, you know, how was Target? How was Walmart? Why didn't you get the chocolate at Trader Joe's? Or whatever. So he would know exactly what she did. And so that's where it becomes more than just telepathy, it's some sort of beautiful merging. And I just can't emphasize enough that for these parents who have been, had their hopes shattered, were told that they're never connected with their child, their child wasn't in there, beyond learning that they're in there, that they're intelligent, that the greatest gift is that their connection is so much more profound than any of us could ever imagine.

• 1:18:12Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  And I think the greatest loss for so many people when they're, when they have a child with autism is this fear, will I ever have this, like, loving, sweet mom with my child? And, yeah.

• 1:18:23Jesse Michels?

  Quite the contrary.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it almost feels like an extreme version, or at the limit version, of just a general connection that, you know, kids have with their parents often. Like Rupert Sheldrake, who is very well displayed in the telepathy tapes, and who's a friend of mine and an amazing scientist, he talks about, you know, kids knowing when their parents are near, and this sort of mind meld connection occurring in statistically significant ways. I think a lot of the issue in the past With parapsychology is often the effects are weak.

• 1:19:06Jesse Michels?

  And so what I think is so fascinating about the telepathy tapes is you have Dr. Diane Powell saying this is often usually 90% plus hit rates. That's really hard to argue with. It kind of shatters, you know, any skeptic kind of coming in. And yeah, I find that fascinating. And I think because of this, we might see a really cool kind of epistemological paradigm shift.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Jesse Michels?

  Like near term.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Been my goal the whole time, you know, is to shift the paradigm. But, but this is one of, I, I sometimes look at the paradox here as a beautiful paradox. And the paradox is that testing non-speaking individuals that have a very difficult time controlling their bodies. And, you know, often are experiencing, you know, high levels of autism where you might not want to be out of your comfort zone. And it's hard to travel and noise can be tricky. And so the idea of taking a non-speaking individual and throwing them in a paradise cage and like, do your thing. It's different than someone else.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  And Dr. Diane, Dr. Powell and I have had so many conversations about this, which is how do we create a comfortable, loving

• 1:20:19Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Situation to test this that is completely airtight, but where it won't be bright lights and overwhelming inputs and new inputs, where they'll feel safe and secure enough. And so when we've talked about trying to fundraise for this next phase of research that will be in the film, I was like, we gotta, like, if we go to UVA, great, but like, can we put down carpets and bring in

• 1:20:42Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  Crystals and candles and sofas and things, their blankets and everything that makes them feel safe. Because it's, it's, you know, and, and there is, then the paradox I'm getting to is When you talk to the non-speakers, they don't get why you need the proof. This is just, this is just this beautiful gift I have. This is what this is. And, um, and why do you need your instruments to know it exists?

• 1:21:04Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  I love that because it's like, I don't need instruments to know it exists. I don't think any of the parents or anyone in this world, the teachers, there are so many teachers and therapists. No one needs instruments. You see it because we are instruments, right? Human beings are. We are showing you what we can do as human beings. And I think there's this darling again, like materialist view of like, but we must measure it and we must blah, blah, blah. Fine, I think we'll do it. And I think we're going to find the right pairs and get them in the right situation to give that proof. But I hope with this podcast, we can realize the proof is often in just the person sitting across from you, you know?

• 1:21:40Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. And I think in many ways, we were talking about this earlier. We have more to learn from them than they from us. Like they are, they've moved on, they're in the next sort of paradigm and they're sort of bringing us along with them. And I think if we apply this materialist view of like, we must immediately instrumentalize the part we can isolate into a technology. And like, they are, you know, part of the instruments. That is a horrible way to look at this.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Jesse Michels?

  And so I'm totally with you. And to the extent we can get you the resources you need to, to build this sort of institute that maybe even as a, a, a first thing allows them to just feel heard and happy and like have a community. And then incidentally, you know, we can, we can learn more about the world as a result. That would be a beautiful kind of, kind of goal. Yeah, just go listen to it.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and, you know, in episode nine, two, there's a neurotypical woman who has a head injury that is able to touch the space that non-speakers can touch. And I think that's, we see that often with, there's a quiet savant syndrome, right? Where someone has a horrible head injury and can suddenly play music, do math, see math everywhere. Um, uh, paint, sculpts. I mean, there's really unbelievable things that have happened with severe head injuries.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  How can neuroscience explain that? And, and it's, it reliably did it. And then there's all these other cases that are like that, where people would all of a sudden be.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  Mathematical genius or a musical genius.

• 1:23:11Jesse Michels?

  In fact, that's part of the vector of how Dr. Diane Powell got into this, right? These savant, like, people like Kim Peek and Rain Man, where clearly whatever learning is going on there belies some sort of form of cognition or consciousness that, again, is not this kind of multi-year, like, inductive learning process. You're just sort of downloading vast swaths of information.

• 1:23:35Speaker 05

  They call this one Bill.

• 1:23:37Speaker 00

  Whoa, aliens? Am I in a spaceship?

• 1:23:39Speaker 05

  Affirmative, Bill.

• 1:23:40Speaker 00

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• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting to me that often it's emotional or physical trauma that can open you up to these gifts and to these other worldly abilities. Like, let's think about that for a second. But then, um, yeah, as far as, one thing Dr. Powell said to me early on, when I was really trying to understand consciousness and how this all works, you know, and especially with the head injuries and savant skills that come with that, um, you know, she's like, I think of it as, like, your brain is like your smartphone, right? And like, every smartphone, it had different apps on it, but your smartphone, it can maybe turn on, but it won't be, like, animated and, like, come to life without a signal coming from somewhere else. And, and that made a lot of sense to me. And, and, you know, some people will say, well, why then, if you have a head injury,

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  won't you be able to talk anymore? You won't be able to do this? And I think it's the same thing if you think of like a piano and a piano player, right? Like, to make music, like, a piano needs a person. It needs a consciousness to, you know, imbue it with this beautiful, you know, artistic, you know, fervor that comes out of it. Your piano has to have a piano player. The piano player has to have the piano. It's like our consciousness and our mind or our soul. I'm sorry, yeah, our soul and our body.

• 1:25:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  It made me think that, you know, that where does information even reside? You know, when you have somebody like Kim Peek... A lot of people thought he was autistic. He actually had hydrocephalus. And so he was born with this defect in his ability to process the cerebral spinal fluid. And so there was pressure that built up in his head. And that's why he had a larger head than normal, and his head's always tilted like this because it was so heavy, he could barely hold it up. And in addition to having this big area where his, in the center of his brain, where it's just cerebral spinal fluid, his skull bones are slightly separated from one another.

• 1:26:00Speaker 02

  But most importantly, he has no corpus callosum. And that's the bundle of fibers that connect the left and the right hemisphere. And so he was somebody who had a very, he didn't have all of the connections that we think of a brain as having. And yet, here he was, somebody who could recite word for word, backwards and forwards, 12,000 books. Yeah. And that's just part of what he could do. Right. And so it's like, where does that information reside? You know, and I thought, you know, this, this model that neuroscience had doesn't make sense for memory because it's, it's really, it works fine for something like, you know,

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  some of the models within neuroscience work fine. Like, you know, like, oh, you know, if you, if you hit my knee, you know, there's this knee jerk reflex. And I can explain that, you know, using, you know, my understanding of how the nervous system works. Very simple. But something like memory, we're still trying to figure that out.

• 1:27:03Jesse Michels?

  I'm a big fan of this transmission theory of consciousness. So like William James, Aldous Huxley, they would say the mind is probably more like a radio than like, it's just like locally producing consciousness. And if you have a radio and it's playing, say it's playing Vivaldi's Four Seasons or something, you could take out the capacitor or the battery or mess with the antenna, and it would stop playing the music. And you could say, oh, those parts, that hardware is responsible for the music. But in fact, it's, you would have to understand, you know, electromagnetism to know that it's. Tapping into a frequency that's playing this beautiful music. I think it's the same with brain injuries where, yeah, you mess with Broca's area and speech gets shut down. Or you mess with Wernicke's area and reading comprehension, you know, whatever, occipital lobe for vision.

• 1:27:49Jesse Michels?

  But how that's all binding together and playing the beautiful music, the Vivaldi's Four Seasons of like everyday life, is just irreducible.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Jesse Michels?

  And it's, we're probably tapping into something.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  While researching radio waves one night, I stumbled across this amazing story.

• 1:28:06Speaker 05

  I had some dental work to be done. You know, they put in temporary fillings.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  This is beloved starlet Lucille Ball, sharing a story from around the time of World War II, when she had to get several temporary fillings put in the upper and lower parts of her mouth.

• 1:28:19Speaker 05

  All of a sudden, I heard music. And I looked down to turn off my radio and it wasn't on. I turned around and looked to see if there's anyone behind me. And the music was getting louder and louder and louder. I realized it was in my mouth. So the next day, I mentioned it at the studio to Buster Keaton. And he said, what street were you on, Moore Park? And I said, yes. He said, you went by the radio station. You picked it up. Well, you got any fillings? I said, yes. He said, you picked it up on your teeth.

• 1:28:48Jesse Michels?

  You have these stories like, you know, do you want to tell the Lucille Ball story? Do you know what I'm thinking of?

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  Oh, you're talking about with her tooth?

• 1:28:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, actually, I had a patient like that.

• 1:28:58Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, they talk about it, you know, in the telepathy tapes. But I had a patient, you know, 25, 30 years, almost 30 years ago, who had, you know, a filling. And she was, you know, getting, you know, radio signals off of it.

• 1:29:15Jesse Michels?

  That's...

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  And I, and I knew, already knew about that as a psychiatrist. Because I was always looking for explanations for why people have these different phenomena. I already knew there was a case report about that.

• 1:29:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  And so, and so rather than hearing this woman say whatever, it's just I, and thinking, oh, you know. Let me give you your antipsychotic. I thought, you know, I read about that. So, and then when she had the filling, you know, taken out, you know, it went away.

• 1:29:46Jesse Michels?

  And she, yeah, that's amazing. And I think Andre Puharich had a similar case where he found some guy who was like working in some metal sawmill or something and a bunch of, you know, metallic ore got in his teeth and he was hearing, it's a concept called bone induction.

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:30:04Jesse Michels?

  And he was hearing things inside of his head. He wasn't crazy. It was just, literally, it points towards this transmission theory of consciousness, the fact that you're able to tap into a radio signal through your teeth and then that somehow becomes, you know, something you listen to. It's interesting, too. I wonder if that dovetails at all with the alien abduction phenomena? Because I was just with an experiencer named Mario Woods, who was at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, which is a, you know, nuclear base. And, you know, he had a Q clearance and he was guarding these ICBMs and, you know, it was a pretty serious hardcore job. And he got abducted by aliens and he was checked by a medical doctor afterwards and they checked his teeth. So that always kind of struck me as like, man, I don't know.

• 1:30:48Jesse Michels?

  Is there something going on there? What do you make of Andre Puharich and his program in upstate New York where he took all these kids who seemed to have high telepathic psy powers? And they would just channel and they would talk about the nine and they would say all sorts of really interesting ontological, cosmological things about how the universe works. And it's hard to say, you know, whether any of this stuff was true, but I mean, I think your research should at least make us relook at that research and say, you know, maybe there was some truth to that. And where do you think, you know, that research went? Because Puharich is this odd character.

• 1:31:32Jesse Michels?

  He was at Northwestern and he was kind of tied in with, you know, MKUltra, like, you know. CIA brainwashing stuff. And so, yeah, I guess, where do you think that all went? Because there seems to be this big gap between that and like now we're experiencing this resurgence. And I think you have very different intentions than he did and then the people around him did. But yeah, what do you make of all that research?

• 1:32:00Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, I'd love to, you know, know more about it. I mean, I, you know, in the sense that, I mean, I've looked into some of this stuff, you know. But, I mean, a lot of it, I mean, who knows? Wasn't he funded at least in part by the CIA?

• 1:32:15Jesse Michels?

  Yes, he was.

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so, you know, I don't think that it's like accessible, you know, information. And, you know, I've heard him talk about things like scalar waves.

• 1:32:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  You know.

• 1:32:27Jesse Michels?

  And extremely low frequency.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:30Jesse Michels?

  Are you familiar with the scalar physics and stuff?

• 1:32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:33Jesse Michels?

  Okay, what do you think about that?

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  I think it's a very interesting idea, you know. I mean, and there, there's a physicist in Germany.

• 1:32:44Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:32:44Speaker 02

  Who calls himself, I think it's Konstantin Mile.

• 1:32:48Jesse Michels?

  Mile, yes.

• 1:32:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, who calls himself like the modern Tesla, you know. And I've looked into his stuff.

• 1:32:53Jesse Michels?

  What do you think of his stuff? I'm fascinated by this, yeah, yeah. Wait, a little context for the audience. So, scalar physics is this idea that if you actually more faithfully adhere to the original 21 Maxwell's equations and in kind of classical electrodynamics, not the condensed vector calculus equations of Oliver Heaviside, who followed up after Maxwell, that that allows for this, the existence of this new scalar field, where you can get electric and magnetic potentials, or sorry, where you can get scalar and vector potentials without traditional magnetic and electric fields present.

• 1:33:34Jesse Michels?

  And in this scalar field, you get all sorts of exotic wave types outside of your normal transverse Hertzian wave. And one of the wave types is called heli-coital waves. And that seems to match up with, you know, like double heli. ...DNA. And so Konstantin Mile is studying these sort of scalar waves in the context of like botany and stuff where he'll like make flowers grow in beautiful ways using these scalar longitudinal heliocoidal waves. It's I'm fascinated by it.

• 1:34:05Speaker 02

  We're gonna have to schedule another time to talk. We're gonna have to. I think, because I think you and I could talk for a long time about a lot of things.

• 1:34:14Jesse Michels?

  We definitely could, yeah.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  We could definitely talk about it, yeah. But I really think that, I mean, it makes it makes sense to me that scalar waves could be involved. And there is, there's more than one instance, okay, where you have in physics.

• 1:34:30Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  And this is the kind of thing my brother and I, who's a physicist, have talked about a lot, and other friends of mine who are physicists, you know, where what they do is they just, they they treat something as though it's null. They treat it as though it doesn't exist because it simplifies their formula.

• 1:34:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  And, you know, and and the main thing that they're looking at, you know, it like it works okay.

• 1:34:57Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Okay, so it works okay to just treat it as though it's zero and they they just drop it off, okay. And I think that one of those things is, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the scalar wave component, you know, of, you know, electromagnetism.

• 1:35:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  And, and, I mean, the original equations, you know, were, I mean, there were far more of them, you know, there was far more complexity there. And it's just like, ah, you know, we don't need this, we don't need that, we'll just give you this, you know.

• 1:35:25Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  And, and a similar thing for, you know, the, the experiment that was proposed to prove that ether didn't exist.

• 1:35:36Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:35:37Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:35:38Jesse Michels?

  The Michaelson-Morley experiment.

• 1:35:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:35:40Jesse Michels?

  In 1890.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  Yes. And Beverly Rubik, who's a biophysicist, and Harry Jabs, who's a physicist, they looked at that data and, and, and they wrote a paper basically saying, well, wait a minute, there actually was an effect. How large of an effect were you expecting? And this is actually in the magnitude that we would expect. So it's like, some effect, there is an effect.

• 1:36:08Jesse Michels?

  Yes. And it's also, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. So even if there wasn't an effect, you can't definitively disprove the ether. And then if you read this, I think it's 1921 or two paper, you know, special relativity was supposed to negate the ether. And then Einstein writes later in his career, he says, "Actually, general relativity is totally compatible with an ether." And then if you look at quantum electrodynamics, which is really the tip of the spear of like, modern science, you know, with Feynman and stuff, we have vacuum energy. You have energy everywhere. So it's like, the ether is back.

• 1:36:44Speaker 02

  Yes, it is. It sure is. The ether is back. And so, and I think scalar waves are, you know, are making a comeback too.

• 1:36:52Jesse Michels?

  I think so as well.

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, so I think it's an exciting time for science.

• 1:36:59Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:37:00Speaker 02

  Because we're, it's like we're rediscovering what had been discovered, but we're now ready to actually, you know, move forward with it.

• 1:37:09Jesse Michels?

  I agree. And I think Tesla discovered it. I think another guy named Thomas Townsend Brown discovered it. And I think it often involves kind of high voltages across short distances. And when I speak to some pretty deep government people, they often say, you know, there's a there there when it comes to extended electrodynamics. There's a guy named Lee Hively who publishes on it. There's an anonymous Navy scientist that showed up in one of my documentaries that talks about extended electrodynamics. And it's just this thing that continuously comes back. And I initially cataloged it as, you know, low probability and maybe hard to detect. But I'm learning more and more about it and from very credible people

• 1:37:51Jesse Michels?

  to the point where I have somewhat high conviction that there's something there. And yeah, to your point about the equations, the Lorentz equation, you know, the vector and scalar potentials were just set to zero out of pure expediency. And then you have things like the Bohm-Eisenoff effect, where it seems like they're, you know, even without a magnetic field present, their potentials present. And so, this is sort of explained away by the electromagnetic four potential, but that's a very poor explanation. And I think that... Not only is the jury still out, I think it's gonna move towards this extended model very, very soon. And I'm excited about it. I mean, there are obviously maybe dangerous still use implications, but hopefully it unlocks,

• 1:38:36Jesse Michels?

  you know, really good stuff as well. Do you know that codate nucleus and potamen?

• 1:38:40Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, I know about that, yeah.

• 1:38:42Jesse Michels?

  That's a part of the brain that I find fascinating, because a friend of mine named Gary Nolan at Stanford, he's a microbiologist, he studies this area of the brain. The more neuronaally dense it is, the more kind of executive functioning somebody seems to display, but by executive functioning, it's really just kind of what we would call psychic intuition. And in fact, I think there's, you know, a study where you hook up somebody's brain to an FMRI and they're playing the game of Go, and when they make a quote-unquote brilliant move, which is a move that doesn't make any sense in the context of, you know, the game and where it's at, but it makes sense in the context of an endpoint that they almost have to psychically know about, that part of the brain lights up.

• 1:39:25Jesse Michels?

  And apparently, when a person takes iboga, that part of the brain lights up, which, you know, people seem to get, you know, have these sort of visionary experiences, this is this kind of psychedelic African tree bark that's been ingested for thousands of years. And so, you know, I think, I wonder if that part of the brain is somehow part and parcel to this different epistemological pathway that is immediate download-based or something. I don't know.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it'll be interesting to see. I mean, you know, the, as I said, the, I really think that the ventricles and the cilia that, you know, line them, you know, the cilia-containing cells that line them are huge, you know, a huge component of this whole mind, okay?

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  But what you also need to know, most people don't know this because they don't know neuroanatomy, is that the codate and the potamen are real close to the ventricles.

• 1:40:30Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

  Okay, so imagine it as being that, you know, this is, you know, like the sensory section, and the codate and the potamen are then the processors of that sensory. You see what I'm saying? It's like...

• 1:40:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's right next to the receptors.

• 1:40:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:40:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. So it's like kind of the first, like, encoder of the information.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:40:57Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 1:40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's my own theory. Nobody else has said that.

• 1:41:01Jesse Michels?

  All right.

• 1:41:02Speaker 02

  You caught it.

• 1:41:03Jesse Michels?

  You heard it here first.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:05Jesse Michels?

  That's really exciting. Yeah, we should be studying that more. I mean, I'd be curious, because you can literally do MRIs on people that seem to have more paranormal experiences, seem to be more quote-unquote psychic, or have predictive accuracy in these sort of controlled experiments, and they're more neuronally dense in that area. And it's often, it runs through families and seems to be hereditary. And so I wonder if some of these kids took these MRIs, if they would have more neuronally dense codate nucleus, nucleuses and potamens.

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, we do know that there definitely are studies that show differences in the codates of autistics.

• 1:41:42Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Okay, so you already know that. I didn't realize that. That's amazing. Wow.

• 1:41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, and the same thing for people who are schizophrenic, and so that, you know, a lot of what we label schizophrenic, you know, might be, you know, something else. Because I know that that's kind of the training of psychiatrists, is to label somebody as schizophrenic, if they report a lot of these phenomena.

• 1:42:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. I don't really believe in the DSM.

• 1:42:06Speaker 02

  I don't either.

• 1:42:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. You just, you just put somebody in a box, and you slap a label on the thing, and it sort of creates this learned helplessness of like, okay, now, treat it biochemically with a thing, instead of like, what does that mean? Why do you have that? And could it be adaptive in certain ways? And then, could it also be, you know, could you overcome it in other ways? And it's way more pliable than just like, this, you have this thing, like, go away, you're not normal.

• 1:42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just always found, I mean, the DSM, you know, is really primarily a tool that is used by attorneys and health insurance companies for their purposes. You know, health insurance companies use it as a tool to say, okay, for that diagnosis, what treatments are we going to authorize that someone can have? And for lawyers, it's, you know, for those diagnoses, what kind of, you know, punitive, you know, comatose damages can we, you know, ask for? You know, so it's strictly created as a description, it's not a description of the truth.

• 1:43:19Speaker 02

  It's a description of clinical syndromes that it's changed like three times in my career. You know, it's a description of them that then is used for those purposes, but we shouldn't be locked into it as thinking that it's describing reality.

• 1:43:39Jesse Michels?

  And it's symptomatic, superficial. It's often like behavioral superficial, maybe one step better is it's superficial, but it's like a thing the body seems to be like, it's like a, you could say a fever, right? But then you're slapping, you know, you're saying this person has this disease or this issue or whatever, but like a million things could cause a fever, you know? And so like even the biological stuff is completely over-determined and you need to actually splice out what are the underlying causal factors of this stuff. And so, yeah, I hope we, I hope we end up with a new model that's, that's better.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And that was, I mean, where I trained at Johns Hopkins, we were taught to really look for various different causes of a syndrome. We knew it was a syndrome that could have multiple different causes. And so we would look for it. Well, a lot of syndromes have biological causes and if you treat their, you know, they've got too much calcium, okay? If you treat their hypercalcemia, okay, then X, Y, Z symptoms go away.

• 1:44:41Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  Okay? Or hyperthyroidism or hypothyroidism, you know, there's, there's a number of conditions that are caused by medical things. So that's why we train in medicine first, you know, and to look for those. Sometimes it's...

• 1:44:56Speaker 02

  Psycho-social, okay? So, we want to have a good psycho-social history and understand psychology, understand sociology. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe it's a really, you know, family dynamics are a problem. Sometimes, you know, it's that you'll hear somebody say something and it's really a spiritual crisis for them.

• 1:45:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:20Speaker 02

  You know, because, and maybe they've experienced some devastating, you know, experience. And so, what I discovered, though, early on is that because I was taking histories from people and trying to think, you know, okay, asking them about everything, everything from their physical well-being to, you know, what kind of thoughts they had, what kind of feelings they had, etc. I, you know, I would listen to their stories and try to think of, you know, okay, where's the intervention going to be? Is it that I need to intervene in terms of, you know, a medical condition or, you know, refer them for psychotherapy or do psychotherapy myself? And I'd listen to these stories and some of the stories that were the wildest stories

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  that you would think, "Oh, my gosh," I'd later find out were true. And so, sometimes, you know, the thing that you think, "Oh, well, you know, maybe this is a sign of psychosis or somebody who's, you know, a pathological liar," whatever.

• 1:46:23Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:46:23Speaker 02

  You go, no, there's actually another possibility and that is that this is the truth and it's just that you yourself have not ever experienced anything like it. But it doesn't mean that it's not

• 1:46:33Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:46:34Speaker 02

  the truth.

• 1:46:34Jesse Michels?

  Hopefully, by enabling these kids with these communication methods, we could allow them to come out more. Do you feel like they want us to know their abilities? Because that almost feels like a part of your mission is letting the world know that these are not only humans, they're extraordinary humans. And is, do you feel like they also have this drive to be known?

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, I would not be doing this if it wasn't for that, you know? And I think deeply, I think they want us to know ourselves as much as they want us to know and appreciate and see them and to validate them. But it's been lovely or validating for me to hear how many non-speakers are so excited about the telepathy tapes. I'll get little text messages of parents showing me them listening or listening over and over and, you know, feeling for the first time, maybe, by some seen, validated herd. And not often their parents know, but now the parents have a way to say, "I'm sending this to Aunt Judy." You know, "I'm sending this to Grandpa and maybe he'll believe me now." So I think the fact that in their own circles, they're getting the respect that they deserve, finally.

• 1:47:48Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  The validation that what they're talking about is absolutely real, absolutely critical to all of us, you know? And I, for, from every Speller that I've had contact with, they're very, very excited. And I think have foreseen this time as being a part of where we're all headed. And I think they would say that this is all part of a, I mean, there's many parts of it, but a step forward in our own human evolution to get back to who we really are.

• 1:48:21Jesse Michels?

  How can we better tap into this paradigm individually, just ourselves? Because, I don't know, there's, there's like the, you know, intellectual version of it where which one of the kids like puts on a hat and like downloads like F. Scott Fitzgerald novels?

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  Houston.

• 1:48:38Jesse Michels?

  That's Houston. It's so remarkable. So there's like that, there's that element, and then there's just the love and unity element, which is probably most important. How, how do we effectively, you know, listen to the telepathy tapes and come away with the right takeaways and, and operationalize this in our own lives?

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, the work of Julia Mossbridge, and I think she'll talk about love being like essential decibelsities.

• 1:49:04Jesse Michels?

  It is.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it is. And I think part of the unconditional love you see from the parents, their non-speaking children, but, and teachers, their non-speaking students, but also... From the non-speakers to these individuals being so often, hopefully, being patient and giving and loving and sacrificing to try to take care of them, you know, in a very difficult body often. And that is a situation surrounded with love and sacrifice. And it is within that situation where these beautiful things, these beautiful gifts manifest most easily. And even if you think about your own life, right, where you might have had a moment of seeing a dead, I'm sorry, a loved one right before they pass, or knowing something is

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  like really wrong with someone that you care for. It's because you love them usually, right? And it's usually in a moment of like fear for them or their life or their well-being. So I think a lot of these things come back to love. But we know it's part of us because the Vikings talked about it, like old Celts did, the Native Americans did. You know, I mean, all of this stuff is part and parcel of being a human being. I think our reliance on language and our cloudiness around materialism, having for the past, you know, three, 400 years, believed that the only things that are real are what you can measure and observe. That has harmed us. It's taken us away from who we are because I think if you were to go back in time and ask people about telepathy, it wouldn't be like you need to go prove that.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  That's just part of the human experience. It would just be like asking someone to go prove love. Well, how do you do that?

• 1:50:36Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:50:38Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  And I think about, Dr. Ian Stevenson from the University of Virginia, he was studying past lives and children. And when he went to India and he was like, I'm trying to prove, you know, past lives. They're like, well, why are you trying to prove that? We already know it's real. You know? And so I think that's, you know, I'm not making a comment on reincarnation. I'm just saying like, I think that's the same idea is that we're trying to prove something that is just part of our being. It's not paranormal, it's normal.

• 1:51:03Jesse Michels?

  It's just super normal. Yeah. It's a, it's so interesting. Yeah, it's like with the whole UFO disclosure conversation. You go to South America or something and they're like, yeah, we talk to star people all the time. We have, you know, rituals that involve them. And, but it's like, but we're going to be the ones, our government is going to disclose this, that there's going to be a file and we're going to sort of let it out. And that same friend I mentioned prior, who, you know, studied at the Princeton Parapsychology Lab for decades, who I just... In my mind, beyond reproach, just a really good person and beyond rigorous as well, and one of the smartest people I know, would say that you take these random event generators,

• 1:51:46Jesse Michels?

  that was his staple experiment, and so you're tying this 1-0 output to something that's conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics, so radioactive isotope decay or something like that, with a known statistical distribution, over a long enough time scale, you expect there to be the same amount of 1s and 0s, because it's a perfect digital coin flip, within a standard deviation, and there's a real effect that your mind can have on the output, and the dirty little secret that like, he's like, yeah, this is well-known in REG, Random Event Generator circles, is that your heart-centeredness

• 1:52:27Jesse Michels?

  is somehow commensurate with your ability to affect the output on the random event generator. And so, if that isn't like a new religious movement, I don't know what it is. It's really this amazing thing, where it's like, your mandate is to go within, and if there are any kind of impure intentions to fix that, because that is literally your, it's also your ability to render the material world, in a way. It's so interesting.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  And I don't know if I talked about this in the series or not, but for the teachers who were able to build a two-way telepathic link with their students, which is a phenomenon in and of itself, teachers, hearing their students' back, so two-way telepathy, I mean, right there, that proves that we can do this. Again, I don't know if the non-speakers, just being in that loving, supportive space with them helps turn it on, or what, but for a lot of these cases, the students often, like their first words will be "tune into my heart," that's the first thing Asher said to Jess, was like, "tune into my heart." And I love that, it's not saying, "think about my heart," it's saying, "tune," you know, like, think of that frequency, like, "tune into my heart." And so...

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  You know, I don't have like a, like a rulebook or like, you know, a manual on how to do that. But I just think if you sit there and think about someone you love.

• 1:53:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  And concentrate on what you're grateful for and that person.

• 1:53:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  And how your life has changed because of that person and what they represent. You can feel someone even if they're not speaking to you, right?

• 1:54:02Jesse Michels?

  It's, I think it's good there's no rulebook. I think it's good that you have to audit what's going inside of you. And it's this kind of messy thing that really involves your personal growth and evolution as a, as a person.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:16Jesse Michels?

  And yeah, it's funny in the like UFO world, a lot of people are like, well, you know, what do you know? Or whatever, you know? It's, it's not like, it's, it's like, you know, I think it's an awareness.

• 1:54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:28Jesse Michels?

  And like, I think these kids are on a whole other level with their awareness. It's not like a file you can give somebody.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:35Jesse Michels?

  You know, it's not this semantic body of information. And, and that comes through auditing the self and through personal growth. And that's, you know, something you can't short circuit.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  No, I'm smiling because I just thought about something that too, you know, in terms of this tuning into something, you also have to give yourself space to validate that like maybe an idea or a thought or an image isn't coming from your own mind.

• 1:54:57Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  And, and that never occurred to me until three nights ago. The thing about this, I've been working on this for almost four years. Like three nights ago, I woke up with this extreme vision of something that had to be in the film. And it had to be, it had to do with like finding a real metaphorical hill and bringing as many non-speakers there together and making it beautiful and like a really like spiritual place. And Houston was like very prominent in this dream. And so I woke up in the morning and I said, I wrote Katie, I said, does Houston, does Houston send me images at night? About the movie? Can you ask him if he just did that? And she wrote back and she asked Houston and Houston said, yes, I do send Kai images. And here I was thinking, I'm having this idea about the film. Well, maybe it wasn't my idea. Maybe it was Houston's idea. I think it probably was.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  And he was trying to convey something to me.

• 1:55:44Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  And I didn't, for so long, I've just been taking it as, oh, okay, here's this idea I had in the middle of the night when, you know, you're the most like open to this stuff.

• 1:55:52Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  And that gun was like shifted my paradigm entirely because I thought, oh, my goodness, has this been happening all along? And how, how many parents is that happening to? Well, non-speakers are wonderful individuals with beautiful personalities and these incredible capabilities, but they do require help and care and sacrifice from those around them. And it's often a 24, it is a 24 hour, seven sacrifice and act of love. And so, um, so I think if there's anything that comes out of this, I really hope people start to just help the parents, give them the resources they need. And, and that, and that will help the non-speakers very much as well, but also giving the non-speakers resources and help and friendship.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  Like, I loved going to a bar and he, with Houston and Houston just had a beer.

• 1:56:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  You know, we're all seeing the table and Dr. Powell was there and Dr. Jeff Tarrant. Like, this was one of the nights we were filming and Houston just had his like Budweiser and was like, you know, typing along. And I remember thinking on the table, I wish I was, I lived in Atlanta and I could do this all the time with Houston. Like, I love watching football or whatever. And, and yes, I mean, just like all of us, you want a loving relationship, you want friends. I, I hope people aren't afraid to befriend non-speakers. It will take more care and sacrifice and time, but you can have a very fruitful, beautiful relationship.

• 1:57:10Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  And so that's what I hope. I hope their lives become so much more expansive with community and love and friendship.

• 1:57:16Jesse Michels?

  I love that. I think that is gonna happen. And how, how can we effectively steer it in that direction?

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  Well, I was thinking about this a lot because one of the things Katie talked about, which broke my heart, was how for so many parents with non-speakers who have a hard time controlling their body and might be stimming and making noises, how hard it was just to even go out in social situations, to go to a bar, to be on an airplane, to go to a movie. Because the way she said it was, you know, we're always worried about affecting like the normal people and, you know, or their children being afraid of my child. And so we have to go. And how socially isolating that can be. Katie, who's an evangelical Christian, and you know, her faith means everything to her, said it was hard to go to church. Even at church, they'd be like, oh, make him go quiet. Like, you know, can you just go to this room instead? And like, how awful, right? So I think the first thing

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  we can do is just have some like grace and compassion and welcome non-speakers into our spaces. And I said this in an interview recently, and I'm sure maybe it sounded trite and silly, but I actually meant it. It's like, if you own a bar, if you have a restaurant, like have a night where it's like, non-speakers, welcome, like, you know, like autism night, like come and hang out. And allies too, friends too, you know, at a skating rink. I mean, I don't know, whatever small business you have, whatever it is, at the elementary school where my kids go, you know, myself and a few other parents have made it really an effort at every event to have a safe room for people on the spectrum or with sensitivities,

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  where they can go and be part of this event, but not be bombarded by what might feel uncomfortable. So we can all do something in our own world to make society easier for non-speakers and their families to go out and participate in. Right there would be huge.

• 1:59:05Jesse Michels?

  I totally agree. And I hope that is a call to action that is heard widely. And I think it's, it's in the best interest of these, these people to open up as well, because you have so much to learn.

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:17Jesse Michels?

  And so, yeah, I hope, I hope, you know, be on the forefront of this.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, I thought about this the other night, just one point is like, most of my non-speaking friends and relationships are scattered around the country. And I was thinking the other day, I'm like, I wish I knew at least, you know, a few non-speakers in Burbank where I live.

• 1:59:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  So I could go walk in Griffith Park with them once a week, give the parent a break, you know, just come on and swim in my pool. I know, I know you love water, you know, like, like, come, like, let's hang out and chill. Because even in my In everyday life, I don't have, I have the people I'm talking to all over the country every day, but not the person right in my midst that I just want to go hike with and walk around the block with and hold their hand and say, "We got you," you know, and like

• 2:00:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  That break for the mom is so huge, or the dad.

• 2:00:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  And, and also so good for the spellers to get out with other people and so good for all of us.

• 2:00:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I, um, it's a beautiful community of individuals that I hope more people get to know and love and appreciate.

• 2:00:21Jesse Michels?

  I, I hope so too. I think they have so much to, to teach us. Have you ever read the book, Childhood's End by any chance, by Arthur C. Clarke?

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:30Jesse Michels?

  It's very interesting because kids start to develop telepathic, clairvoyant powers. It talks about this sort of like non-human intelligence that is kind of this mental sheath all over the world.

• 2:00:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:45Jesse Michels?

  Who knows if that part is, you know, true, but, uh, the bridge to this sort of, you know, other world are these kids that start to develop this clairvoyant power and they're kind of the ambassadors for humanity.

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:01:00Jesse Michels?

  And I just, yeah.

• 2:01:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:02Jesse Michels?

  So I just, I find that so, and Arthur C. Clarke's this very interesting character to me where he's like, there's something about that guy and Stanley Kubrick and some of these other guys where it's like, you're tapped into some sort of like, you're imagining some pre-reality that is gonna kind of manifest.

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:18Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  Well, I think one thing I've learned is from what a lot of the non-speakers will say is that what we create on earth really matters.

• 2:01:24Jesse Michels?

  It's, oh, yeah.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  And those creative ideas are coming to us often from somewhere else. And so I started, once I started getting into this world, reading fiction in a whole new way and often being like, whoa, like where this is coming from is might be an insight or a key into our greater reality. And all this stuff is being funneled through creators and writers and I love that.

• 2:01:46Jesse Michels?

  Yes, I, I think that's the case.

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:48Jesse Michels?

  And on the, on the scientific front, uh, Dr. Diane Powell's medical license was revoked. Is that right?

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:55Jesse Michels?

  Can we, how do we make sure that her and people like her are protected? Especially when they, like her, have the best of intentions and I think similar to you, empowering these kids so they can study this stuff and, uh, you know, teach it to the rest of us and even bring it into this, our scientific paradigm.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  What happened to Dr. Powell was awful. You know, when she wrote her book, The ESP Enigma, she had her medical license revoked because she was talking about ESP. And she had to go through psychological testing to get her license back.

• 2:02:31Jesse Michels?

  So demeaning. It's ridiculous.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  When they read the book, they realized it was extremely sound science, of course. I mean, she's a brilliant scientist and researcher. And then she was fine, not only in the state where she was practicing, Oregon. She was fine in California, where she wasn't even practicing. But she, you know, I think she had a medical license there. And it traumatized her. She'll say that. It traumatized her. And of course, you don't want to have income taken away from you. You don't want to have, I mean, I can't imagine if I made a documentary and someone slapped me with fines.

• 2:03:01Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:03:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:03Speaker 01

  And it shouldn't be happening to scientists either. And Dr. Rupert Sheldrake certainly talks about this. Scientists should have a freedom of inquiry, just like journalists, just like creators should. By asking a question or presenting a hypothesis, you shouldn't be fined and intimidated and have your credentials revoked and tainted. And I don't know how to fix that. I just hope awareness will. I hope even just this podcast going out there kind of lets people think for themselves when they see that a scientist has had their name tainted. That like, huh, is that a materialist paradigm? Which is this belief that like, everything has to be measured and, you know, it's all like concrete what we understand and see. Is this a materialist paradigm that's keeping these scientists in check?

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  Did they really do anything wrong? So we all just need to start asking that question.

• 2:03:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and we also have to ask, you know, yeah, to the materialists out there, if this is all quackery, why revoke her license? Why are you threatened at all? Let her continue to do her studies, you know, they're not going anywhere because it's all fake or whatever. So it shows an insecurity. The fact that you have to censor, you know, means there's maybe even a part of you that thinks that this is real.

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:04:13Jesse Michels?

  And it's funny, so I was just with her. I didn't realize, she's such a fascinating person. She has this kind of analogous life with John Mack. Like where she was friends with John Mack, who was at Harvard. Similar situation where traditionally kind of pedigreed guy, head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department. You know, very serious background. And towards the end of his life, starts to study all of these people who are earnestly coming to him saying, you know, we've, we've had all these, you know, alien abduction experiences.

• 2:04:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:45Jesse Michels?

  And he was persecuted by Harvard. There was a trial there.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:50Jesse Michels?

  And so he dies, he gets hit by a car very tragically in London. And she goes to his memorial and I guess all the people at the memorial are like, Dr. Powell, you have to take on Dr. John Mack's legacy. This is really important. And I think she ends up, she ends up running his institute. I think it's called JEM or something. And then she buys this house, which serendipitously like kind of comes into view for her in Oregon. And the house's birthdate, when it was built, was the same birthday as John Mack or something. And so it's very interesting kind of synchronicity.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Gosh, I'm so like just in awe right now that you're bringing this up because on the car ride over here, I was talking to my producer Jen. And she said, she was talking about the UFO, um, uh, just like the world, how often it's interviews and it's a lot of the science. And, and everyone's looking at the science and the experiencers and, I mean, not experiences, the disclosure and the technology and X, Y, Z. And I said, I didn't really understand the whole world until I read John Mack's book. And I understood what all these experiences were talking about. And it made my heart and my body like ache and hurt and swell and confused. And I bought in, I, then I was like awakened to it because I understood what people were experiencing.

• 2:06:11Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:06:12Speaker 01

  You know, and, and anyway, we were talking about that in a way here that like the gifts of like John Mack bringing these experiences, not just, you don't have to, I mean, I can't, I can't speak for everyone. From my point of view, you don't have to prove everything with instruments and data.

• 2:06:26Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  And look at these hundreds of people. Having the same experience all over the world. That's what John Mack did.

• 2:06:32Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  For ufology, I think.

• 2:06:34Jesse Michels?

  Oh, he totally did. And he's, I think, a part of this paradigm shift.

• 2:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:37Jesse Michels?

  Because there's this amazing conversation he had with Terrence McKenna, who's also one of these paradigm shifters. He's sort of a, I call him a fungal philosopher. You know, really interested in mushrooms and, you know, new paradigms in consciousness. And just an amazing guy. And he and John Mack are speaking, and John Mack, you know, McKenna is actually playing the role of this kind of like funny provocateur, where he's asking these questions to Mack, but he kind of, they're kind of leading questions that he knows the answer to, and he can see it on his face. And he's like, you know, what's gonna happen to the Western paradigm or something? And John Mack says, oh, it's gonna, it's gonna burst open, and we're all gonna realize that the Western paradigm is incredibly myopic and closed.

• 2:07:18Speaker 05

  If you wanna shatter the Western mental structures, the, the Western mind, so to speak, which is now permeating the whole earth in its materialist dualistic philosophy, the way you do it is you take something that's supposed to be in the spirit world. Because even in the West, we can make allowance for the spirit world. We can study it through mythology, through religion, through imagination, through poetry. But the one unforgivable sin to the Western mind is when something that should be in the spirit world transgresses and shows up in the physical world.

• 2:07:56Jesse Michels?

  And I think what he's getting at is this idea that the observer-observed dichotomy is gonna break down. This idea that there's an impartiality, this distance between me as this like perfect instrument of observation, and what I'm seeing is gonna collapse.

• 2:08:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:13Jesse Michels?

  And these kids are the, just the perfect example of that, where they can sense people's energies in this sort of just extremely precocious way. And what you're feeling matters. And that, that really, I mean, the name of my show is American Alchemy as well, and that the alchemical process is, is changing the outer world through, through the inner. And I, I wonder if... We're at the end of this. You know, John Mack was friends with Thomas Kuhn, who, you know, wrote The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. And he was like, you gotta look into this because Thomas Kuhn knew that, you know, at the end of a paradigm shift, or sorry, at the end of a paradigm, a current paradigm, you have a law of marginal returns,

• 2:08:58Jesse Michels?

  declining marginal returns, where you're just, you know, kind of dotting the i and crossing the t on like your final theory. And then it all just kind of blows up. And you see it happening right now with

• 2:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:09Jesse Michels?

  string theory in physics, where you have people like Leonard Susskind, the top of the field, who are getting interviewed and they're like, oh, we haven't really discovered much. Like, I give her B plus or whatever. And then you have all this stuff that's coming out and it's like kind of undeniable.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:24Jesse Michels?

  And academia, I think, is going to be laid bare as kind of playing catch up on this stuff. Because they have to play these reputational optics games.

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:33Jesse Michels?

  I see it with high-profile friends of mine who are like in academia. They have like more of a reputation. I'm like this ragtag former VC or whatever. I'm like, this is real, like so obvious. And they're like, okay, like, send me the paper and I'll read it. And they're like, well, if the New York Times reports on it, then I'll take it seriously. It's like, just look at the data. What's wrong? You know, think for yourself.

• 2:09:52Speaker 01

  Think for yourself, for sure. And that's what I would say to anyone listening who's just like, I don't know what to believe. I don't want to make a this. Approach everything with open-minded skepticism. Because if you're just a closed-minded skeptic, you're dogmatic. You're just like a fundamental religious person who won't listen to anything else. Or you might be exactly what you are against in a lot of ways. And being an open-hearted skeptic doesn't mean you don't ask questions. It doesn't mean you don't explore the truth. But you need to be open that the truth might be very different than what you think it is. And I think that's what I encourage people to do. Be open-minded skeptics and your world will be blown.

• 2:10:26Jesse Michels?

  I love it. How can we help you and how can we help these kids?

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  You know, I'm in the process of raising money for the film and I'm having some wonderful conversations and I'm hoping we'll have funding together, you know, by next year.

• 2:10:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  I mean, that's my goal. And so, you know, I will keep people up to date on that. I would honestly say the best thing people can do right now is to share the telepathy tapes with their friends and family and teachers and just to help with this paradigm shift. All I want is for people to hear this message. And as far as the non-speakers go, advocate for spelling, write to Asha, talk to your school district, write a letter. You know, ABA therapy is not the solution. I think every parent will say that. I mean, spelling has been a miracle worker. We have to get spelling into schools ASAP and universities.

• 2:11:17Jesse Michels?

  Well, this has been an absolute honor, Dr. Powell, and I hope that everybody understands how, you know, earnest and rigorous you are in your work. And I think it's an absolute atrocity that your medical license was revoked at one point, right?

• 2:11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:33Jesse Michels?

  Just for looking into this stuff?

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:35Jesse Michels?

  And so, yeah, thank you for giving us your time and excited to make something cool out of this.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

• 2:11:44Jesse Michels?

  Go listen to the telepathy tapes and let's de-stigmatize spelling immediately and allow these kids to get heard. And let's get you some no strings attached money for whatever you want to do creatively around this in the future. And thank you, Kai. This was amazing.

• 2:11:59Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 2:12:00Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  What a great convo.

• 2:12:02Jesse Michels?

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