Brené Brown: How to Stop Betraying Yourself to Be Accepted

Brené Brown reveals that the opposite of belonging is actually fitting in, and why that distinction matters more than you think. She opens up about still feeling lonely despite speaking to thousands, and explains how belonging to yourself is both the hardest and most essential work you'll ever do. You'll learn why every act of courage requires vulnerability, why shame thrives in silence, and how speaking your truth deflates its power. This isn't about becoming fearless, it's about choosing courage over comfort even when your voice shakes, and finally writing the ending to your own story instead of letting it write you. Brené’s books:I Thought It Was Just Me (But It Isn't)Daring GreatlyRising StrongBraving the WildernessDare to LeadYou Are Your Best Thing: Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and the Black ExperienceAtlas of the HeartThe Gifts of ImperfectionStrong GroundIn this episode you will:Master the practice of belonging to yourself first, so you can show up authentically everywhere without betraying who you really are. Understand the direct relationship between vulnerability and courage, and why you cannot be brave without being willing to face uncertainty and risk. Discover why fitting in is the opposite of belonging and how changing yourself to be accepted actually destroys your chance at true connection. Learn the proven process for dealing with shame when it shows up, including why speaking it out loud is the only way to strip away its power. Break through the myth that vulnerability is weakness and recognize it as the birthplace of every meaningful achievement in your life. For more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1877For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Lewis Howes [SOLO]Eric ThomasDr. Marc Brackett Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. I'm very excited. Today we have the incredible Brene Brown on. Thank you so much for having me.

• 0:07Brené Brown?

  Thanks for coming to Texas.

• 0:08Lewis Howes?

  Yes, I'm very excited to be here. We have an event called the Summit of Greatness every year, an annual event. And the people on my team in our program write down the person that they want to have on the School of Greatness. And most of our team is women, and most of them put your name down as the people, the person we want to have on. So we're finally making it happen and my team can stop asking for Brene. It's happening. I feel very connected to you.

• 0:32Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 0:32Lewis Howes?

  Because I felt very alone for almost my entire life. I felt like I didn't belong anywhere. I was the youngest of four. I was always picked on, bullied. I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn't know. I was always picked last on sports teams, and I know you weren't even picked for, I think it was the step team or some type of...

• 0:53Brené Brown?

  Oh yeah, the drill team.

• 0:54Lewis Howes?

  The drill team. I remember how, you know, that made, that kind of transformed your life.

• 0:58Brené Brown?

  It was defining.

• 0:59Lewis Howes?

  Defining, right? These moments that we go through as kids can really define and shape us. And so I'm just, I feel connected to you in that sense that I felt very alone and didn't know who I was for a very long time. And still I'm trying to learn who I am.

• 1:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:13Lewis Howes?

  You are?

• 1:14Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:14Lewis Howes?

  You seem like you have it all figured out.

• 1:16Brené Brown?

  Oh God. No, I don't. No, I don't have, I mean, first of all, I think the one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering. You know, that's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade, by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it, it was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know, I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders,

• 2:00Brené Brown?

  who have the belonging thing completely nailed, because I don't think it is what we think it is. You know, I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends, or having a crew, or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because... I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis.

• 2:22Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 2:23Brené Brown?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:23Lewis Howes?

  I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people.

• 2:25Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 2:26Lewis Howes?

  Fifteen-city tour.

• 2:27Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 2:27Lewis Howes?

  Millions of fans around the world and you still feel alone.

• 2:30Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I can feel really lonely.

• 2:31Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 2:32Brené Brown?

  And it's really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm severely introverted.

• 2:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 2:37Brené Brown?

  Super private. And so I love that connection between me and an audience, but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one...

• 2:50Brené Brown?

  It's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing, but um...

• 3:00Brené Brown?

  I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself. But it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself. And sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel... I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like, I want to find the researcher storyteller,

• 3:38Brené Brown?

  Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me believing what I believe in and doing it really well.

• 3:50Brené Brown?

  But there's not really a blueprint sometimes.

• 3:55Lewis Howes?

  We're all trying to figure it out.

• 3:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 3:56Lewis Howes?

  We're all trying to figure it out.

• 3:57Brené Brown?

  I don't get to copy anybody. And so it's hard.

• 4:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:02Brené Brown?

  It's still hard. But here's a thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me.

• 4:10Brené Brown?

  So even when I feel alone and I wonder like, who's my crew and who are my people?

• 4:17Brené Brown?

  I belong to me, for sure. For the first time in my life, maybe.

• 4:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in.

• 4:24Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Lewis Howes?

  You know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest, and I remember just wanting to fit in, just like you did on the, uh, that team. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered.

• 4:41Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 4:41Lewis Howes?

  Like I was the cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with, or they would bully other kids or make fun of people, it's like I didn't want to not say anything, you know? I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong.

• 4:53Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 4:54Lewis Howes?

  So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear, was being alone.

• 4:59Brené Brown?

  No, yeah, because that's what, that's what teams and groups deliver.

• 5:04Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:04Brené Brown?

  They deliver this thing that you're not alone.

• 5:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:06Brené Brown?

  The problem is, there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? And changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. Because if we, if we, if we fit in, because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging, because you betrayed yourself for other people.

• 5:43Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 5:43Brené Brown?

  And that's not sustainable.

• 5:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you start to lose yourself.

• 5:47Brené Brown?

  You start to lose yourself, exactly what you said. And so I think it's hard, you have to show up as who you are.

• 5:53Lewis Howes?

  How do we find out who we are?

• 5:55Brené Brown?

  That's the life's work, right? That's frickin' hard. Um...

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  Do you know who you are?

• 6:01Brené Brown?

  Uh, yeah, I do.

• 6:02Lewis Howes?

  Who are you?

• 6:04Brené Brown?

  Uh, in what way?

• 6:07Lewis Howes?

  If, if someone just said, "Who are you, Brene?", what would you say?

• 6:10Brené Brown?

  Uh, Brene Brown. Hmm. Mom, partner, researcher, storyteller, Texan.

• 6:24Brené Brown?

  I don't know, I ask them how much time they have. Because, you know, the thing is that we want to... When we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in. But I'm a complicated person.

• 6:35Lewis Howes?

  Are you?

• 6:36Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and so I think, I know who I am.

• 6:39Lewis Howes?

  What makes you complicated?

• 6:41Brené Brown?

  I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex.

• 6:44Lewis Howes?

  You're interesting.

• 6:46Brené Brown?

  I hope so. Some days, yeah, some days, no.

• 6:49Lewis Howes?

  Very interesting.

• 6:49Brené Brown?

  You know, I think what makes me complex is, I think what makes everyone complex, is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like, I speak in public, I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted.

• 7:04Brené Brown?

  I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, "Yes ma'am, no ma'am." But I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it. Yeah, so, I think I'm... I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people. But, I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good.

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:31Brené Brown?

  And so...

• 7:34Brené Brown?

  I think, I understand people, I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull.

• 7:41Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 7:41Brené Brown?

  And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined.

• 7:47Lewis Howes?

  I think that was some...

• 7:48Brené Brown?

  Do you?

• 7:48Lewis Howes?

  I... I was gonna say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't want to be defined as well. They were like, "You're gonna be this jock in college, you're gonna be like this alcoholic, you're gonna be in the frats."

• 7:58Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Lewis Howes?

  All my siblings said this to me. And I was like, "No, I'm not." I made a bet with each one of my siblings, a hundred dollars each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college. Because I was like, "I want to go against everything you think I'm gonna be."

• 8:09Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 8:10Lewis Howes?

  I joined the School of Musical, because they were like, "You're just gonna do sports." I sang, I played guitar, I salsa danced. I was like, "I'm gonna do everything different than what people would expect of a tall, white man, right?"

• 8:20Brené Brown?

  That's awesome.

• 8:20Lewis Howes?

  I was like, "I want to be different."

• 8:22Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 8:23Lewis Howes?

  And I think in that process, I was like, trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what, you know, what was fun for me.

• 8:29Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 8:29Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think.

• 8:35Brené Brown?

  You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  It's true. Trying to go against it, all true, yeah.

• 8:42Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it's really hard, I mean, it's a thing that... It's a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that we're never free until we belong nowhere, we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all. Which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And I was like, why are you saying that, Dr. Angelou? You're pissing me off. But then I realized, really, and she says, the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think, I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go.

• 9:24Brené Brown?

  No matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself. And the minute I become who you want me to be, in order to fit in and make sure people like me, is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard.

• 9:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:44Brené Brown?

  I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice.

• 9:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 9:47Brené Brown?

  Yeah, because I can be whoever you want me to be like that.

• 9:50Lewis Howes?

  Like a chameleon, you said.

• 9:51Brené Brown?

  Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like, sometimes, it's really funny, because like, I always, because I travel so much, I have all these miles, I always sit in business class, and I'm normally the only woman in business class. Every now and then, there's one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too. But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person like, and it's so funny, because we'll talk about sports usually first, or football, or we'll talk about politics, and he'll say, what do you do? And I'll say, I study vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, huh, well, I'm gonna play some Angry Birds.

• 10:30Brené Brown?

  You know, and right that moment, like, I can just, it's not that I know everything about everything, it's just...

• 10:37Lewis Howes?

  So you're saying most men don't want to chime in and learn more about that?

• 10:40Brené Brown?

  No, that's usually, if I want to go to sleep, I'm like, I'm a shame researcher. What do you do? And he's like, okay. But I think I can be anything, like...

• 10:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're adaptable.

• 10:50Brené Brown?

  I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great, because anyone that comes to my home, or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable.

• 10:58Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 10:59Brené Brown?

  But then, if I get so adaptable, that my goal, my intention of adapting, is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself. Yeah.

• 11:07Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone?

• 11:15Brené Brown?

  High school.

• 11:18Lewis Howes?

  It's the whole journey?

• 11:19Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it just sucked.

• 11:20Lewis Howes?

  It does suck.

• 11:21Brené Brown?

  And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school and she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience and it was so healing to watch.

• 11:33Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 11:34Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there and you know, student council president and you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here. No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter, you belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense?

• 12:08Lewis Howes?

  Because they felt safe coming back. No matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to.

• 12:11Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four. And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader or you were on the drill team and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club. You know, I would have been in debate or those kind of things.

• 12:44Lewis Howes?

  Newspaper.

• 12:44Brené Brown?

  Oh, for sure. Yeah, photographer of the year book.

• 12:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 12:48Brené Brown?

  But those things did not have a lot of value.

• 12:50Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 12:51Brené Brown?

  No, no.

• 12:51Lewis Howes?

  Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile?

• 12:54Brené Brown?

  No, it's just, cool was the number one value at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular.

• 13:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:04Brené Brown?

  And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found, I found a place to be, you know, cool and... Yeah, that just goes bad fast.

• 13:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this?

• 13:23Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah, we've talked about all of it.

• 13:24Lewis Howes?

  You have?

• 13:24Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Lewis Howes?

  You've let it go, you've processed it all?

• 13:27Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah, cuz they, you know, they read my books as I write them and they're, you know, they're like, this is exactly what every parent wants a child who grows up to be a shame researcher.

• 13:37Brené Brown?

  But, no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents. Like, my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone, I think, could ever know, which is, it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like, they keep growing and exploring and, um, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up.

• 13:57Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:58Brené Brown?

  No, no, no, no. Like, yeah, like, our family motto was literally lock and load. Like, get ready, you know, family trips, you're in the car for five hours, it's all six of us, you really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway, we're not pulling over, like, suck it up, hold it. Like, we were tough. We were tough. Like, we'd fall down and get hurt, you know, my dad would say, like, I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball, you know, like, you know, yeah, like, we were tough. And so, and we were, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability. We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done.

• 14:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:35Brené Brown?

  And so, however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know, um...

• 14:48Lewis Howes?

  Was he able to process that or no?

• 14:49Brené Brown?

  No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball.

• 14:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:56Brené Brown?

  My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life.

• 15:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:04Brené Brown?

  But she was the most amazing person in the world, but everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at our, at her house growing up, because it was the 50s and she was divorced. You know, and so my mom became the head of the drill team and the, you know, the valedictorian and, and so however hard it was for me growing up, having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents.

• 15:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:28Brené Brown?

  And they didn't, they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so, I don't have...

• 15:39Brené Brown?

  I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life, where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did. As opposed to my parents who lean in and say, "Tell me more about that. I have a funny story. You hear a funny story about my dad? It's great." So, we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so, my husband's a pediatrician. So, like, we know a lot about child development from our, just from school. And so, when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, "You have two choices. Like, Louis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water, I'm gonna have to take it from you. What is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice, right."

• 16:24Brené Brown?

  And so, one night I was talking to Ellen, and we were at my dad's house in San Antonio. And I was like, "Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed." And she's like, "Mm-mm." And I said, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV, or I'm gonna get up and turn off for you. And if I have to get up and, you know, turn off the TV, you're gonna lose privileges to watch it tomorrow."

• 16:45Lewis Howes?

  And that's your choice.

• 16:45Brené Brown?

  Yeah, that's your choice. So, you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me, and he's like, "Ah, damn, sis, what are you raising, a hostage negotiator?" I was like, "Dad?" And he's like, "Seriously, Renee? We had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that." So, the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio, and he's watching Ellen. And he's in the driveway, it's like 110 degrees in San Antonio. And he's sweating. He's like, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up, or I'm gonna have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumbass choice." So, I was like, "Wow, you're so close."

• 17:20Lewis Howes?

  You're getting there.

• 17:23Brené Brown?

  My parents are amazing in that way, that like, they're learning and changing. So, I think it's harder when parents say, "I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change, no miss. Take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker."

• 17:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 17:43Brené Brown?

  And I think we see that a lot.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do. I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow? I mean, how can they start to be aware? Because I think it starts with being aware.

• 17:54Brené Brown?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 17:54Lewis Howes?

  Of what they know and what they don't know, and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do. I think once you've had these habits for so long. So that's the first thing. And I want to dive into the lack of vulnerability with what's happening in Charlottesville right now as well. Because I know you did something on that this morning. So I guess, how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they're so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it's worked for them to this point to get to where they're at?

• 18:30Brené Brown?

  You know, I think

• 18:35Brené Brown?

  I believe, this with my whole heart, I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have.

• 18:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Brené Brown?

  I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:11Brené Brown?

  You know, I mean, a great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers and hundreds, if not thousands, of fathers I've interviewed that said, "I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable."

• 19:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:27Brené Brown?

  "I put him down. I made fun of them. I hit him every time he was vulnerable." And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised or I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school or, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding, giving yourself permission.

• 19:48Brené Brown?

  To not have, I'm not perfect, like, you know, like, I've never not been a researcher and a parent. My husband's a pediatrician. Our kids will be in therapy.

• 19:54Lewis Howes?

  You're right.

• 19:54Brené Brown?

  And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is there's only two kind of kids you raise. Kids who will ask for help when they need it, or kids who won't. And that's as good as it gets, is to raise a kid who'll ask for help.

• 20:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I never asked for help.

• 20:08Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 20:08Lewis Howes?

  I was always suffering inside.

• 20:09Brené Brown?

  Yeah, right.

• 20:10Lewis Howes?

  And I always felt shameful, guilty, and I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports or outside of sports, because that's all I knew.

• 20:21Brené Brown?

  I'll tell you a story about a guy that I interviewed, very, one of the first men I interviewed when I went from interviewing all women to men, was a guy who said, I said, "What a shame for you." And he used the P U S S Y word, which is like, just synonymous with shame in male culture, right?

• 20:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Brené Brown?

  And he said, "I'll never forget the day that changed my life." He said, "I was at football practice, I was a freshman in high school." And he said, "The coach yelled, 'Get on the line.'" And I didn't want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage, in case people don't know, I know you know, but he asked me to make sure I walked through all the sports metaphors with him now.

• 20:59Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 21:01Brené Brown?

  And he said, "I was afraid to get on the line, because I know, you know, it's where people crash into each other. And so I must have had fear on my face, because my coach looked at me and said, 'Don't be a P U S S Y, get on the line.'" And he said, "That's the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you change that fear into rage." And he said, "And I just plowed over the guy across from me." And then he said, "Then I spent the next 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me."

• 21:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Brené Brown?

  He said, "That's what I did with my fear."

• 21:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I mean, I can definitely relate.

• 21:41Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Lewis Howes?

  I mean... I remember being picked last on a, on a team once. When it was a coed sport, we were playing dodgeball on the playground. I think it was third or fourth grade. And there's two captains, two guys. And they were picking one at a time, right?

• 21:55Brené Brown?

  Oh god, brutal.

• 21:55Lewis Howes?

  They pick all the guys.

• 21:57Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 21:57Lewis Howes?

  And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be the last guy chosen.

• 21:59Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Lewis Howes?

  But then they go and pick all the girls. And then, then I'm gonna pick my name. I'm just by default the last pickers team. And so as a, as a, you know, a boy trying to fit in, in third or fourth grade. It was devastating. And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again will I be picked last at any sport.

• 22:19Brené Brown?

  I'll do whatever it takes.

• 22:20Lewis Howes?

  I am going to be a machine. I'm gonna train for six hours a night. I'm going to, you know, take no prisoners mentality and just, I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just like throwing the ball, like just diving everywhere. I was like, never again.

• 22:34Brené Brown?

  And did you ever get picked last again?

• 22:35Lewis Howes?

  Never got picked last again.

• 22:36Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 22:37Lewis Howes?

  But, and it helped me achieve, you know, was all state in multiple sports. Was all American in two sports. I broke world records. I played professional football. I play on the USA handball team now. And it guided me towards achieving these things, but it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I'd achieve them. Or anytime we lose, it was like an attack on my life. Every loss we ever had on a sport, it was like my life was at stake. And I felt like I was worthless. Because if I didn't win.

• 23:06Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Lewis Howes?

  That meant no one was gonna accept me. Or I wasn't good enough. Or I was gonna be picked last or something. So I would take it so personally when I wouldn't win. And then I would take it out on my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything. And I didn't know how to communicate. And I'm still learning, you know, I'm still imperfect every day, but it's like, I wasn't even aware. There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you're allowed to. Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy, growing up for me, it was like you're a P U S S Y.

• 23:38Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 23:38Lewis Howes?

  Don't be a little girl. Or don't be a V I T C H. You know, all these things. And so it's very, I think it's very hard for me and especially for a lot of men who grew up to stand alone. And feel like they belong in an isolated world. If they're not going to join a group that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So how do we stand alone? When we're not introverted? Or we wanna be around other people? How do we? How can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable?

• 24:05Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 24:06Lewis Howes?

  We were talking before about how, you know, most men that I know, played sports with, would never watch The Power of Vulnerability TED Talk, or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of. Because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability.

• 24:22Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Lewis Howes?

  You know, they would say, "That's soft. That's weak."

• 24:25Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 24:25Lewis Howes?

  "I don't watch that stuff. I don't read that stuff." When really, that's the stuff we need the most, in my opinion.

• 24:29Brené Brown?

  And I think it's changing. I think I told you earlier that I think 50% of the readers of Daring Greatly are men, and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why.

• 24:41Lewis Howes?

  Wise men.

• 24:42Brené Brown?

  I can, huh, I hope, I can flip it for you on a dime.

• 24:46Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 24:48Brené Brown?

  So it used to take me, when men would, when men would say, this is how the call would go, "Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED Talk. We thought it was great. Are you available?" And I'd say, "Sure. What do you want me to talk about?" And they'd say, "Anything but vulnerability and shame." And I would say...

• 25:06Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 25:07Brené Brown?

  "So what do you want me to talk about?" If I don't talk about vulnerability. And they'd say, "Courage." And then I'd say, "Okay." Then I would try to spend like a half an hour, explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage.

• 25:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Brené Brown?

  Because all men want to be brave.

• 25:18Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability courage?

• 25:20Brené Brown?

  Vulnerability is courage. So I only have to ask...

• 25:21Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability power?

• 25:22Brené Brown?

  Yes. I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing. It's this. Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of courage that you've ever been involved in, or that you've ever even witnessed, that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? And it's a loaded question, because I know the answer is no. Because I've asked it thousands and thousands. I've, I've stood in front of Navy SEALs and Special Forces Military Personnel and said, "Give me an example. I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn't require vulnerability." And in 10 years, I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two guys come up to me who were in the military that said,

• 26:07Brené Brown?

  "We're going to think about it and get with you."

• 26:09Lewis Howes?

  They never got back to you?

• 26:10Brené Brown?

  "Oh, my God." I said, "Do it. I would love it. Give me an example of courage, even on the field."

• 26:18Brené Brown?

  That doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you, if it, if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty, you're not being that brave.

• 26:27Lewis Howes?

  It's too safe?

• 26:28Brené Brown?

  Yeah, if you know how it's gonna turn out, it's not courage. And so in that moment, people go, shit. But I wanna be brave and I don't wanna be vulnerable. And I'm like, therein lies the great dilemma of our time. Yeah, no one wants to be uncomfortable. No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave. And it just doesn't work like that.

• 26:51Lewis Howes?

  Right, and anytime we try something new, we've gotta, we've gotta be uncomfortable.

• 26:55Brené Brown?

  It's vulnerable.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's vulnerable.

• 26:56Brené Brown?

  I mean, when I ask people, what is vulnerability? People would say initiating sex with my wife. Sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the first chair in orchestra. And knowing he's probably not gonna make the orchestra at all. Getting fired. Starting my own business. Saying I love you first in a relationship. Trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage. I mean, like, vulnerability is, it's uncertainty. It's not knowing, but doing it anyway, because it's the brave thing to do. And so, the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak.

• 27:39Brené Brown?

  And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go, hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable. And so, men do two things in the face of shame. Pissed off or shut down.

• 27:59Lewis Howes?

  Put on a mask.

• 27:59Brené Brown?

  Put on a mask. And so, what we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable. If you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations. Give hard feedback, receive hard feedback. Excavate issues like Charlottesville that no one wants to talk about. Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage. Like my motto is, we say it here all the time, choose courage over comfort. Cause you can't have both. And if you think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that brave.

• 28:38Lewis Howes?

  Is there an area of your life right now where you don't feel you're courageous enough?

• 28:49Lewis Howes?

  Something you've been wanting to say to people that you haven't said fully or holding back on?

• 28:53Brené Brown?

  I think the Charlottesville Facebook Live today was hard.

• 28:56Lewis Howes?

  Was it?

• 28:57Brené Brown?

  Yeah, oh, yes. My voice was shaking. I was shaking. In fact, we got here today and we knew we were gonna film us together, but we were gonna film some other stuff first. And I said, I just need to do the Facebook Live because I don't want to lose my courage. And I think that's hard because when you're, when you talk about race and privilege and power,

• 29:17Brené Brown?

  first of all, I'm gonna get like, you know, death threats and people are gonna say, you know, all that stuff.

• 29:22Lewis Howes?

  You're wrong either way.

• 29:23Brené Brown?

  You're wrong either way, right. But the ability that I have to opt out of speaking out about it because it doesn't supposedly affect me is the definition of privilege. So I don't believe we can opt out of it.

• 29:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Brené Brown?

  And I know that I'm white, upper-middle class, really educated, Judeo-Christian, straight. I know that I've got blinders on, that no matter how hard I work, I will say something that is not right. And people will come back and they will fire off against me around it. And it will hurt, but I'd rather take the chance in it hurting and learning. But it's always, it's scary to talk about this stuff today.

• 30:05Lewis Howes?

  It's-

• 30:06Brené Brown?

  Do you think?

• 30:06Lewis Howes?

  It's really hard. And I try to come from a place of like, super authentic and loving of all humanity all the time. And I was raised by, you know, I had two great parents, but my mom and two older sisters were really the ones who came back to me after they would go on a date with a guy. They'd be like, Louis, never do this on a date. You know, always treat women this way. So I've always tried my best.

• 30:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 30:27Lewis Howes?

  You know, I'm imperfect in so many ways and constantly make mistakes with people.

• 30:30Brené Brown?

  Yeah, me too.

• 30:31Lewis Howes?

  But most of my team, I was telling you before, most of my team is women. I think 80% of my team is women. And-

• 30:38Brené Brown?

  Clearly why you're successful.

• 30:40Lewis Howes?

  And they get paid more than the men on my team. Not because they're women, but because they produce better results. And my business is based on results.

• 30:48Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Lewis Howes?

  I've got people of different ethnicities. I've got people of different sexual orientations. And I had someone tell me last week, they said-

• 30:57Lewis Howes?

  You know, white male privilege is a thing, and I think you need to incorporate more values into your organization. So that you're not living from this white male privileged place. And I was thinking, I was hurt by this because I get it, I'm white, I can't, there's nothing I can do based on the way I was born. Nothing I can do.

• 31:15Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 31:15Lewis Howes?

  Can't change the way how I was born, but I can choose to determine how I want to live and how I want to show up in the world. So I'm constantly trying to be mindful of speaking out more.

• 31:23Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Lewis Howes?

  Of, because I think that's what a lot of my friends are saying about Charlottesville. If white men aren't opening up and talking about this more, it's not going to come across to the people that are, I guess, marching with torches, which is, just blows my mind that this is happening still. It blows me away that this is happening. I don't even understand it. I'm like, I'm blown away.

• 31:47Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. And I'm just like, how can I be a better, more impactful in this place? And how can we get rid of this? How can we end it?

• 31:55Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 31:55Lewis Howes?

  Do you have the answer?

• 31:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 31:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh, no. It just blows my mind.

• 31:59Brené Brown?

  No, and I think we need to do a lot more listening than, you know, and hear what, hear from the people who've been affected by this the longest. I think we do need to speak out. I think white silence around these issues is death. I mean, I just think it's, it's terrible. I don't think we can come in and save the day. I think we need to come in and with humility and curiosity and say, this is what I think and I want to learn and I want to, if I make mistakes, let me know and I'll try to make them better.

• 32:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Brené Brown?

  And I think we need to take responsibility. And I, I think it's easier sometimes for me in my life

• 32:39Brené Brown?

  to

• 32:42Brené Brown?

  just keep asking questions, just keep reading, just keep, just keep talking about it. And when I am so uncomfortable that I don't want to do it anymore, just to keep doing it because to remember that my discomfort is, you know, that's my privilege.

• 32:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Brené Brown?

  And so I don't know that there's an answer other than discussions. And I'm not, I wasn't surprised. About Charlottesville, really? No.

• 33:05Lewis Howes?

  I just, really, it just blows my mind. Maybe I'm just ignorant to that.

• 33:08Brené Brown?

  I don't, I don't think it's about being ignorant to it. It doesn't, you know, I've studied shame for 15 years and fear. Like, that's what it looks like.

• 33:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What do you think they're, these individuals marching like this are most shameful of in their own life? Why are they so?

• 33:23Brené Brown?

  I would never venture to guess. Um, I, I don't know, but I do think it's about powerlessness.

• 33:29Lewis Howes?

  They feel powerless.

• 33:30Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I think that people go, oh my God, okay, so the white, you know, the white guy and the khakis and the, you know, fancy polo shirt feels powerless and, you know, cry me a river.

• 33:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:44Brené Brown?

  Um, I think we don't, we don't give a shit about that at our own peril. Um, not caring about it and not trying to understand it. I'm not taking it on my load, for sure. I mean, I'm not gonna add it to my back. I've got other stuff to do. Um, but I am gonna try to understand it because I can't imagine a way through what needs to happen over the next decade that does not involve understanding pain. There's this incredible James Baldwin quote that says,

• 34:25Brené Brown?

  "Now I understand why people hold on to their hate so stubbornly, because once they let it go, there's nothing but pain."

• 34:32Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 34:33Brené Brown?

  Um, and I think we, we dismiss and don't care about that pain at our own peril. Because pain will make itself known. It, it will not be dismissed. It's not an affect or an emotion that dissipates when it's ignored.

• 34:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Well, I think this is, this is fascinating, you're saying this because... I never wanted to feel the emotional pain. It was so hard to go through.

• 34:59Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 35:00Lewis Howes?

  I got a breakup with a girlfriend. Like, I didn't know how to deal with the emotional loss.

• 35:05Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Lewis Howes?

  Of any type of pain or suffering.

• 35:07Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 35:08Lewis Howes?

  As a man. And I remember being in the fetal position my freshman year in college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just curled up on a ball. Uh, because I, you know, a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone and I didn't have this person in my life anymore. And I would take it out on the football field.

• 35:26Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:27Lewis Howes?

  I was like, I don't want to feel this type of emotional pain. So how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people?

• 35:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 35:33Lewis Howes?

  To get it out. And it's hard to switch that off and just be like this loving, vulnerable man after you're on the football field, like inflicting pain uh, on other people because you're supposed to.

• 35:43Brené Brown?

  No, and I think whether we play football or not, we're much better at causing pain than we are feeling pain.

• 35:48Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to feel it.

• 35:49Brené Brown?

  No, you don't. And so we cause it and we hurt other people.

• 35:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do.

• 35:52Brené Brown?

  And so, and if you look at leadership, whether you're in an organization, leading a country, leading a family, as a parent,

• 36:02Brené Brown?

  one of the cheapest, easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your own, your misery. Uh, and so we have to really watch that in our country right now.

• 36:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Brené Brown?

  So if we, all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is give them someone to blame and

• 36:25Brené Brown?

  give them a reason to blame them.

• 36:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Brené Brown?

  And then step back and watch everything just fall apart. And so I think that's happening right now in our country. And so we have to push away the rhetoric, you know, we have to own our pain. And let me tell you, it's not like you tell that story about the football field and it's so prophetic because

• 36:47Brené Brown?

  Every crisis we're up against right now, almost without exception, is about our inability, our unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opioid addiction right now, across, you know, somewhere, beginning with physicians, sent the message, "There's no reason for you to hurt at all."

• 37:10Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, here's a pain reliever.

• 37:12Brené Brown?

  Here's a pain reliever, you know, and things are not going well in your life, well, here's a way to discharge hate and pain that'll make you feel better.

• 37:20Lewis Howes?

  Like, by drinking, or by smoking, or sex, or whatever.

• 37:25Brené Brown?

  Medicated, addicted, in debt, and obese Americans in history. Like, our tolerance for discomfort is zero.

• 37:34Lewis Howes?

  Soft, yeah.

• 37:36Brené Brown?

  Yeah, so here's the irony, soft.

• 37:39Lewis Howes?

  What we're taught in football, don't be soft.

• 37:41Brené Brown?

  Yeah, don't be soft. So it's actually our inability to be vulnerable

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Brené Brown?

  that makes us weak.

• 37:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I agree. One of the things I talk about and try to express to as many people as possible is to actually put yourself through pain and discomfort every single day. I try to do this physically through working out, to try to push myself farther than I want to, where I'm like emotionally want to cry.

• 38:03Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 38:04Lewis Howes?

  Because I just know by conditioning myself to feel pain every single day, that when a lot of stuff comes my way, I'm capable of taking it on and processing the emotions, as opposed to being like, "I just need to drink. I need this, I need that." I mean, I've never been drunk in my life, so I don't even know what that feels like. But it's hard, especially as for myself, I'll speak for myself as a man, it's hard growing up, learning how to deal with those type of emotions. It's really challenging. There's no class in school that says, "Okay, when you're feeling this way, Louis, here's how you're supposed to act in the world."

• 38:36Brené Brown?

  It's vulnerability.

• 38:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, here's how you're supposed to act. Here's the step-by-step process. Like, there's no process that we're taught, unless it's our parents, or we seek it out.

• 38:45Brené Brown?

  And it's not modeled, because I think parents fear kind of soft boys turning into soft men.

• 38:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:55Brené Brown?

  Who, you know, I remember interviewing this guy who was in his 70s, and I said, "What is shame to you?" And he's like, "Shame is being the kid you can shove up against the lockers."

• 39:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Lewis Howes?

  Shame is being the kid that you shove up.

• 39:08Brené Brown?

  Yeah, being the kid that you can shove up against the lockers.

• 39:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:13Brené Brown?

  You know, and it's like.

• 39:16Brené Brown?

  But really.

• 39:21Brené Brown?

  We've got to shift it and we've got to shift it. I think it starts parenting, school. Athletics is huge.

• 39:26Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 39:27Brené Brown?

  I mean. It's a really, I mean, let me, let me, let me do this. Okay, let's do the sports thing.

• 39:32Lewis Howes?

  Let's do it.

• 39:33Brené Brown?

  Okay, ready? Okay.

• 39:36Brené Brown?

  Two football teams.

• 39:38Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:38Brené Brown?

  You're gonna place a bet.

• 39:39Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 39:40Brené Brown?

  Both of them have hurt quarterbacks. Both of them are playing, well, both of them have hurt quarterbacks. This team over here recognizes its vulnerability. It's gonna put in a second string quarterback. This team ignores its vulnerability and pretends like it doesn't exist. Who are you betting on?

• 39:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, depends on the injury.

• 40:00Brené Brown?

  No, Jesus.

• 40:02Lewis Howes?

  Hey, cuz I played hurt my whole life, you know, so it depends.

• 40:05Brené Brown?

  I would say that most of us would say. You are more, you are less likely to win if you do not acknowledge your vulnerabilities as.

• 40:12Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 40:13Brené Brown?

  So even if you play your quarterback.

• 40:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:15Brené Brown?

  You gotta make sure your line is ready.

• 40:16Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, and you gotta switch the plays up.

• 40:18Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 40:18Lewis Howes?

  If his arm's hurt, you're gonna pass it off.

• 40:20Brené Brown?

  You're gonna pass off, right.

• 40:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, so.

• 40:22Brené Brown?

  Give him more time in the hole, whatever you're gonna do.

• 40:23Lewis Howes?

  The team that acknowledges their vulnerabilities.

• 40:25Brené Brown?

  Is gonna be more successful.

• 40:26Lewis Howes?

  And is adaptable to change.

• 40:27Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 40:28Lewis Howes?

  Is gonna be more successful.

• 40:29Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 40:29Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 40:30Brené Brown?

  Right, so. Why do we think? As men, to pretend like you're not vulnerable. Makes you the most vulnerable.

• 40:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:38Brené Brown?

  Makes you the most susceptible. I mean. We just have data, I mean, just like I could fill this whole room with data. About.

• 40:49Brené Brown?

  You don't get to opt out. Let me ask you this. Do you know a guy in the world, you know, a lot of guys, right? Who can say, I've existed this point in my life. Without being uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed?

• 41:02Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 41:02Brené Brown?

  Right, you can't not do vulnerability.

• 41:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:05Brené Brown?

  But you can pretend like you don't. Then you're not making choices over the behaviors you engage in when you're vulnerable.

• 41:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Brené Brown?

  Then you don't know. When you're vulnerable and then you're acting nutty.

• 41:17Lewis Howes?

  And I think you pay major prices.

• 41:19Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:19Lewis Howes?

  When you don't, when you aren't aware or when you're not acting like you're aware.

• 41:23Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 41:23Lewis Howes?

  You just act like everything's fine, or you don't need help, you don't need support, you don't need to address the situation, or

• 41:29Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Lewis Howes?

  grieve, or whatever it is.

• 41:31Brené Brown?

  No.

• 41:32Lewis Howes?

  That's when you get hurt the most.

• 41:33Brené Brown?

  It's when you get hurt the most.

• 41:34Lewis Howes?

  You suffer the most, and I think that's when the most anger, frustration, rage.

• 41:38Brené Brown?

  Rage.

• 41:39Lewis Howes?

  And I guess divergent happens. And I was watching this video last night where they were documenting the whole process of the Charlottesville thing. I think Vice was doing this. The person interviewing like the leader, one of the guys who was like the leader of the marches or whatever, was saying about how, you know, this is our land and our forefathers were whites and it belongs to us. It's like this whole thing that it belongs to a certain race or something. It just blows my mind. It's like

• 42:07Brené Brown?

  Forgetting clearly about the Native Americans who were here.

• 42:10Lewis Howes?

  Who were here.

• 42:10Brené Brown?

  Or we took it.

• 42:11Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly. But I mean, it just blows my mind that all this comes back to like feeling like we need to belong, I guess, to and protect what was ours or what's our right, something.

• 42:23Brené Brown?

  It all comes back to identity and belonging.

• 42:25Lewis Howes?

  Belonging, yeah.

• 42:26Brené Brown?

  But underneath identity and belonging, there's something that we don't talk about, and it comes, it comes down to power. It comes down to power. I mean, I think what we're witnessing is power over's last stand.

• 42:38Lewis Howes?

  And that's what I love talking, you write about how I think most men who come from this place feel like power is only one person, one group can have the power as opposed to we can spread the power

• 42:48Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Lewis Howes?

  throughout the world.

• 42:49Brené Brown?

  Like it's a pepperoni pizza.

• 42:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 42:51Brené Brown?

  Like if I give Louis a little power, I'm gonna have less, so make sure I'm comfortable giving it to you when it's not.

• 42:58Lewis Howes?

  Don't give any slices away.

• 42:59Brené Brown?

  Don't give slices away. Hold all the, and so what we see around the world right now, not just with this administration, but globally, is we see the concept of power over making a last stand. And it is not going to work. What is going to work moving forward with the completely

• 43:19Brené Brown?

  devastatingly difficult problems we have at hand is power with and power to power with each other collective power the things that are killing us right now we're not going to solve by ourselves as a nation they're global issues we need global solutions we need everyone at the table for them but that is a really I mean we are at a huge turning point in history that should not be minimized or misunderstood I mean for the first time ever the problems that challenge us us challenge us the most are problems that will not be solved with national solutions they are global problems that require global solutions and collaboration and for a lot of people

• 44:05Brené Brown?

  that's really scary

• 44:06Lewis Howes?

  hard

• 44:07Brené Brown?

  hard hard what about us what about me you know um and last stands you know about last stands last stands are violent

• 44:16Lewis Howes?

  yeah

• 44:17Brené Brown?

  last last stands are fueled by desperation

• 44:19Lewis Howes?

  whatever it takes

• 44:20Brené Brown?

  and fear and whatever it takes

• 44:22Lewis Howes?

  risking it all

• 44:23Brené Brown?

  risking it all and so what you're seeing right now are people risking it all showing up at these marches with frickin tiki torches I mean like it's not even start around the Polynesian how the Polynesian people feel about their tiki torches but I mean like with tiki torches basically basically mimicking the Ku Klux Klan

• 44:45Lewis Howes?

  it's so crazy

• 44:46Brené Brown?

  but without sheets

• 44:49Brené Brown?

  this is this is power over his last stand and these folks are nostalgic for a time that never existed

• 44:58Lewis Howes?

  where they thought they had the power

• 45:00Brené Brown?

  where they yeah they're what they're interested in is it was so much better back then and what they're not saying is when people knew their place

• 45:10Brené Brown?

  and so it's going to get harder

• 45:15Lewis Howes?

  if you had a message to give to our nation's leader what would you say

• 45:29Brené Brown?

  Roosevelt said that the presidency, above all else, is a place for moral leadership. And I believe there are lines that we do not cross. There are morality lines etched in dignity about people's inherent worth, and we should never cross those lines. And they have been crossed so many times around immigration, around women, around building walls. And that, at the very least, we can argue about policy. We can argue about whether, you know, Social Security lock boxes,

• 46:13Brené Brown?

  or what should we do around taxation, healthcare. Those are important things. But at the very least, a person in that office should be a moral leader.

• 46:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:24Brené Brown?

  And that line should never be crossed. Because when you cross it, it says so much more about your integrity than it does about the people you're attacking.

• 46:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. If you had a microphone, and everyone had headphones on, was listening to the end of this microphone, and you got a message to share to all the men in the world within 60 seconds or less, and all the men were to put on headphones and hear a message from you.

• 46:53Brené Brown?

  It's very Orwellian, I like it.

• 46:55Lewis Howes?

  And you got one chance to say something to these men from all over the world, and they could all understand English, and they understood you.

• 47:02Brené Brown?

  You're taking care of all the logistics.

• 47:03Lewis Howes?

  All the logistics, they got it on. It's not fuzzy, there's no Wi-Fi signal. Everyone's got access to hearing your voice for 60 seconds. All the men, and all the women are actually standing by listening as well. What would you say to all the men of the world in general?

• 47:23Brené Brown?

  Golly.

• 47:26Brené Brown?

  You know, I wouldn't want to screw that up. Let me think. Yeah.

• 47:32Brené Brown?

  I think I would say

• 47:37Brené Brown?

  that vulnerability is not weakness.

• 47:41Brené Brown?

  It's about the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome. And it is actually our greatest measure of courage. So

• 47:53Brené Brown?

  show up

• 47:56Brené Brown?

  in an authentic way and let us see your hearts.

• 48:02Brené Brown?

  Because we know how lonely you actually are.

• 48:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 48:07Brené Brown?

  Yeah, men are lonely. I mean, it's, it's, it's really, men are lonely. It's really hard.

• 48:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:16Brené Brown?

  But I, I would not, I think that's, I don't think I would say anything differently to women as either. You know, because I think

• 48:24Brené Brown?

  there is certainly, you know, for women, the greatest shame trigger is

• 48:29Brené Brown?

  do it all, do it perfectly, and never let them see you sweat, look perfect, work perfect.

• 48:33Lewis Howes?

  In all areas.

• 48:34Brené Brown?

  In all areas.

• 48:34Lewis Howes?

  Workforce, at home.

• 48:35Brené Brown?

  Yeah, be smoking hot and brilliant and this, but don't ever look like you're putting any effort toward it. And so

• 48:41Lewis Howes?

  It's so easy, right?

• 48:42Brené Brown?

  Right, it is. I don't, I don't understand why my sisters have not nailed that. But, uh, I think

• 48:51Brené Brown?

  so it's hard for women to be vulnerable because it's less than perfect.

• 48:56Brené Brown?

  You know?

• 48:58Lewis Howes?

  You mean women aren't wearing masks?

• 49:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Yeah, and it's terrible because then the two collide. And you see in a lot of partnerships, I mean, I've seen it so much in my research, this contract we have. Where I'll stay smoking hot and awesome and, you know, money and provider shame is such a real thing for men. And, you know, you do this and this is our contract and we're both in straitjackets till we die. Yeah, and so like

• 49:29Lewis Howes?

  How do we remove those jackets?

• 49:30Brené Brown?

  We just start getting real with each other. We just start being really honest.

• 49:36Brené Brown?

  And we see each other. You know, we really see each other.

• 49:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 49:44Lewis Howes?

  I've got a few minutes left. I'm gonna be mindful of these questions.

• 49:48Brené Brown?

  I know, unfortunately. Let's go now. Cut it.

• 49:50Lewis Howes?

  I could ask you, I could talk to you for hours.

• 49:58Lewis Howes?

  Is there anything you feel ashamed of still?

• 50:01Brené Brown?

  Oh, I have moments for sure. Like, I will have moments of...

• 50:07Brené Brown?

  But now I know. I mean, it's, we can't ever get rid of shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over, that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough. When that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, "You're stupid," or "You're not..." Now, when it washes over me, I'm like, "Okay, I'm in shame. Don't talk, text, or type. What happened?" So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it.

• 50:40Brené Brown?

  I still have triggers around it. And I still think it's probably the same. Motherhood, trying to, you know, do everything and balance everything and be where I'm supposed to be. And that's still hard sometimes, you know?

• 50:51Lewis Howes?

  What's the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger, rage?

• 50:56Brené Brown?

  Well, shame is, shame I can really help you with is, first and foremost, talk to someone, talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. So if you really, if you, if something happens and you're overwhelmed with shame, the first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet. Don't talk, text, or type to anyone, because the first, one of the things we want to do is push that shit out on other people.

• 51:15Lewis Howes?

  I'm good at that. I'm guilty of that.

• 51:17Brené Brown?

  Yeah, no, yeah. So just get into a dark, quiet place and then talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. Just be like, "Dude, it's okay. Like, you screwed this up. You, what you said was super hurtful. You're gonna have to circle back and clean that stuff up. But give yourself a break here," just like I would talk to Ellen or Charlie if they made a mistake. Then reach out and talk to someone about what you're feeling. Shame cannot survive being spoken. So if you, if I call you and I'm like, "Oh my God, Louis, I'm in a shame shitstorm. You're not gonna believe what happened." And you listen to me and you respond empathically, or empathetically, with something like, "Oh my God, I've been there," or, "Oh God, I get it. I'm sorry. That sucks." Shame can't hold on, because shame can't survive empathy.

• 52:02Lewis Howes?

  I 100% agree with that. A quick example, for 25 years, I had on to this shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. And I was like, if anyone knew this about me, you know, my life was over. That's how shameful I felt, embarrassed and

• 52:18Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 52:19Lewis Howes?

  Um, you know, abused, I felt from the experience. And when I finally had the courage to share it, it took me, you know, a couple of years to share it over and over many, many times. I don't feel shameful. Like, I can talk about it openly and freely without feeling embarrassed, without feeling weak, soft, vulnerable, because, you know, I own the experience and it's not something I have to hold in and like ra- react through rage because I can just share it. And I can communicate as opposed to

• 52:48Brené Brown?

  So brave.

• 52:48Lewis Howes?

  Hold into this.

• 52:49Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 52:50Lewis Howes?

  And um, I think whenever I face anything that I'm scared to talk about now, I just say, well, how can I talk about it? At least, how can I journal? I like to journal first.

• 52:58Brené Brown?

  Oh, that's huge.

• 52:59Lewis Howes?

  So no one can shame me, right?

• 53:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah, that's huge.

• 53:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And then I start having conversations. And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn't own us anymore.

• 53:09Brené Brown?

  I mean, so that's a perfect example. First of all, um, it's devastating that that happens. It happens to boys.

• 53:16Lewis Howes?

  One in six.

• 53:17Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and they think that's an underestimate. They think that that

• 53:21Lewis Howes?

  No, one in six is what's known.

• 53:23Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and they think it's probably double that

• 53:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:25Brené Brown?

  because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely, even to their own parents around it.

• 53:30Lewis Howes?

  I never told anyone.

• 53:31Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 53:31Lewis Howes?

  My parents didn't know.

• 53:32Brené Brown?

  Right. So, so here's the example exactly. You talk about it now. So when, so two choices. You own your story, you get to write the ending. You don't own the story, the story owns you.

• 53:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:44Brené Brown?

  So then you talk about it now. So shame can't hold on. But then people see and hear you talking about it. And it gives them permission to talk about it. That's why shame cannot hold on to being spoken. So your courage to talk about that deflates shame. It takes it out of the air.

• 54:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Brené Brown?

  It's like filtering poison out of water.

• 54:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:07Brené Brown?

  Because you've got the courage to speak up. I mean, and that's how it works. And that's how all of this works. Is that we own our story, or it owns us.

• 54:18Lewis Howes?

  Final two questions. This is called the three truths. I ask everyone at the end of the interviews, the three truths. You've written many books, you know, all number one New York Times bestsellers. Uh, let's imagine it's your last day, many, many years from now.

• 54:31Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  You get to write the story when it's your last day on your own terms, right? You've written every book you've ever wanted to write. You've said everything you've always wanted to say. You've done every video, interview, whatever it is, you've achieved anything you set out to do.

• 54:43Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 54:44Lewis Howes?

  But for whatever reason, it's all erased and gone. So no one has access to any of this information.

• 54:49Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 54:49Lewis Howes?

  And you're there with all the people you care about.

• 54:51Brené Brown?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:52Lewis Howes?

  And you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in life. This is all people would have of your message left behind. What would you say are the three truths for you?

• 55:07Brené Brown?

  Steve, Ellen and Charlie were my greatest true loves, for sure.

• 55:19Brené Brown?

  After that, everything seems small.

• 55:24Brené Brown?

  Love takes courage. Be brave, let yourself be seen.

• 55:30Brené Brown?

  And

• 55:33Brené Brown?

  don't wait for the grownups to get there. It's, that's, that's the myth. We don't know what we're doing. We're just putting our best foot forward. So if you have an idea and answer, go for it.

• 55:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  That's cool, that's cool.

• 55:45Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 55:46Lewis Howes?

  Uh, before I ask the final question,

• 55:47Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 55:48Lewis Howes?

  Uh, I want to make sure you guys go get the book.

• 55:49Brené Brown?

  I'm scared for the final one, I'm like, cut! Let's go, wrap it up.

• 55:52Lewis Howes?

  The final question's easy. Uh, but this is, uh, Braving the Wilderness, The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone. Make sure you guys go get this book. It's going to be a game changer. Highly recommend it. I'll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video. Very powerful. You're an incredible writer and, uh, I just know this is going to serve so many people who feel alone in the world of uncertainty. Um, and I want to acknowledge you, Brene, for being an incredible gift to the world with all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you. I think it takes so much courage to share these things, the way you've been doing them for years, decades, you've been opening up and talking about it.

• 56:35Lewis Howes?

  And to bring it out to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper. I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else's. Pain, as I've started to open up about mine, I just feel the weight of everyone now sharing with me. I can only imagine.

• 56:54Brené Brown?

  It's a lot sometimes.

• 56:54Lewis Howes?

  The weight that you get to carry and are, you know, privileged to carry because of the work you're getting to do. And the impact you have on so many people who feel, who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope. There is no way out, who are stuck in all areas of their life. You give people such inspiration and tools and education on how to transform their life. So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do.

• 57:20Brené Brown?

  Oh, thank you.

• 57:21Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome. You're welcome. Uh, this is the final question.

• 57:23Brené Brown?

  That's amazing.

• 57:24Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome. It's my pleasure. Yeah.

• 57:28Lewis Howes?

  The final question is simple. It's what's your definition of greatness?

• 57:35Brené Brown?

  To own your story and love yourself through that process. That's greatness to me.

• 57:41Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

• 58:21Lewis Howes?

  And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.