#226 Matt Gialich - Debunking Aliens in the Ocean, Mining Asteroids and Black Holes

Matt Gialich is the Co-Founder and CEO of AstroForge, an asteroid mining company founded in 2022 that aims to extract platinum group metals from near-Earth asteroids to redefine sustainable mining practices. With over a decade of experience leading high-performing engineering teams, Gialich holds a Master's degree in Electrical Engineering from California State Polytechnic University, Pomona. His career began at Toyon Research Corporation as an analyst developing novel navigation algorithms, followed by key roles at Virgin Orbit, where he led the flight software and GNC teams and oversaw avionics development. He later served as Director of Vehicle Software at Bird, where he met co-founder Jose Acain, sparking the idea for AstroForge amid their shared passion for space. Previously, Gialich was co-founder and CEO of Ex Scientia Technologies. A Y Combinator alumnus, he has guided AstroForge to successful missions, including Mission 1's launch, and advocates for commercial space innovation to address resource scarcity on Earth. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://betterhelp.com/srs This episode is sponsored. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/srs and get on your way to being your best self. https://bruntworkwear.com – USE CODE SRS https://bubsnaturals.com – USE CODE SHAWN https://bunkr.life – USE CODE SRS Go to https://bunkr.life/SRS and use code “SRS” to get your 25% off your family plan https://shawnlikesgold.com https://helixsleep.com/srs https://moinkbox.com/srs https://mypatriotsupply.com/srs https://patriotmobile.com/srs https://rocketmoney.com/srs https://shopify.com/srs https://simplisafe.com/srs Matt Gialich Links: X - https://x.com/MattGialich LI - https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-gialich AstroForge - https://www.astroforge.io Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:05Shawn Ryan?

  Matt Galich, welcome to the show, man.

• 1:08Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me on, man. This is awesome.

• 1:10Shawn Ryan?

  Mining asteroids?

• 1:13Shawn Ryan?

  Well, dude, that is so far out there. I can't, I can't wait to have this conversation. But I am curious, like, why, why, why mining asteroids? What are you getting off of them?

• 1:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we're going after what are called the platinum group metals, right? Very, very critical resource we all use here on Earth, but they're also worth a lot of money. And by asteroids? Well, some of the best ore sources we've ever discovered of the platinum group metals are orbiting us in space. It's a very specific type of asteroid called a metal asteroid that we're going to go after, mine, and bring it back to Earth.

• 1:46Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Well, we're going to dive into that deep, so I can't wait. But everybody starts off with an introduction, so here we go. Matt Galich.

• 1:56Shawn Ryan?

  Co-founder and CEO of Astroforge, a pioneering deep-space mining company focused on extracting platinum metal groups from asteroids. Engineering leader with over a decade of experience, leading teams in high-stakes technical environments, turned down an opportunity at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory to start Astroforge in 2022. Driven by a vision to act faster and more economically than traditional aerospace giants. A risk-taker who embraces fear is a requirement for innovation, telling your team that if they're not scared, they're not pushing hard enough. I love that. I think I know what it means, but I'm curious, what is, uh, what is, what do you mean by that?

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Look, when you're gonna go do something like attempt to mine asteroids or go travel to the cosmos, right? You have an option to go do that in a very safe way at a, at a big company you've probably heard of called NASA. I probably shouldn't call them a company, right? A big government agency called NASA. It takes a lot of guts to take highly-technical people and have them kind of throw that away and say, "I'm gonna go join a small startup and go try to explore the universe for a fraction of the cost. We're gonna take a lot more risks to make that happen. We're probably gonna fail multiple times. But if we can pull it off, we change the world." Those are, those are special people and people that you rarely find, and those are the people that we hire at Astroforge, right? We hire the explorers of the future, and you kinda gotta have that genie to make it work.

• 3:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, how do you find them?

• 3:24Speaker 03

  There isn't one simple answer to how do you find talent. I wish there was, because then I would just use it on repeat to find the best talent. People have come to us, from people that have emailed us, to people that have said, uh, investors that have then came over the fence and worked for us, uh, people we go on and recruit. People I've spent, you know, our current COO, I spent over three years just talking to.

• 3:44Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, really?

• 3:45Speaker 03

  Saying like, "Hey, this is what I'm doing. When are you interested?" And, you know, he was early at a little company you've probably heard of called SpaceX, and, uh,

• 3:53Shawn Ryan?

  I've maybe heard of that.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  To get some of those people that are just really ingrained, also have a lot of capital. Like, it's not like SpaceX has done bad for these people that were pretty early at the company, right? But to, to be able to convince them and get them kind of excited about a new push into the cosmos is really what pushes people over the edge. I would say, most of the team at Astroforge isn't working for the money. They're working for the journey and the adventure. Like, we're all on an adventure. Let's go see where it takes us.

• 4:21Shawn Ryan?

  So, I'm curious... Because I have so many questions, I'm not organized. Because there's just so many random questions. I mean, what was the, I mean, what was the motivator to start? I mean, what even got you interested in mining asteroids? Why not just mine here on Earth?

• 4:41Speaker 03

  So it's, yeah, I mean, look, those are two different questions, right? It's not that I actually got interested in mining asteroids. Uh, in early 2021, um, I went to JPL and looked at a mission called Europa Clipper. It's a mission that's going out to a moon. It's about five and a half billion dollar planetary mission. Amazing mission. But what I realized is, and I think we can all admit this, is it shouldn't cost five and a half billion dollars. Like, there's just not that much material being used to justify that cost. And NASA has this process they've used, and it's almost at this point, a jobs program, right? You gotta like, test your spacecraft in this state, and you gotta go to this state to do this, and these people in this state have to work on it. And so you get Congress to approve these budgets. And we're kind of seeing that today all over the place, right?

• 5:24Speaker 03

  With NASA's budget, like every week you hear something different, and it's become some senator like argued for his state to get it. And that's not a good way to build low-cost spacecraft. And in fact, we've just seen these spacecraft balloon in price. And five and a half billion is just a massive, massive amount of capital to go do something that I don't think should cost anywhere near that amount. And, you know, you're gonna hear these famous stories about Elon, and I think a lot of founders will repeat this, that they go and they look at like the raw material costs of what it takes. And, and then say like, well, this is, you know, X amount more, this is a good price to go and flex. And we've been using that for a long time in business, by the way, which is called margin. And something that we looked at as well of like, hold on, why does this cost five and a half billion dollars? What if I could build it cheaper?

• 6:08Speaker 03

  And what I realized is, I think I could build a satellite a lot cheaper than what NASA does. But- Is it worth it building it cheaper? And what I mean by that is you still gotta launch the thing. It's not like I can throw a satellite into space, I still gonna be able to launch the satellite. And so, one of the biggest reasons Astro Forge is allowed to exist is actually because of that same organization NASA. NASA does this thing called the eclipse missions. These are the lunar landers you've probably seen. So I don't know if you watched the Intuitive Machine Landers or the Firefly Landers go land on the moon. And we hitch rides on those rockets for a fraction of the cost, right? We no longer have to buy an entire dedicated launch to go out to the cosmos. And so, for the first time, you can build a low-cost spacecraft, but also have low-cost launch. Those two things have never aligned before to go do it. And so, now I can go access the universe

• 6:53Speaker 03

  at orders of magnitude cheaper than anybody's been able to in history. And then the question became, what do you do? Like, I can't go raise money from a venture capital, say like, hey, I'm gonna go YOLO something to the universe and like, explore it. They're like, cool, cool, there's no, what is that supposed to mean? And so, you know, what I first did was I sat down and I wrote this whole list of like, if I can now see this inflection point where I could access deep space for, for much cheaper, right? Under $10 million, including the launch. What could I do? And I had all these stupid ass ideas, you know? One of my ideas, Sean, was actually to, I say this one all the time because it was so dumb, but I followed it up for about a week was like, could I sell ads? Like, we all see these famous pictures of Jupiter and Saturn, and you've probably seen the Voyager mission or Cassini,

• 7:38Speaker 03

  and you don't know what mission they're from, but you see these gorgeous images. What if it was like stamped with Coca-Cola at the bottom, right? Like, could, could we sell it? And I called a couple of places, I called Red Bull, and Red Bull was like, no, we're not interested. I'm like, okay, this is dumb. But there was two companies before that I had really respected and read a lot about, and they were called Planetary Resources and Deep Space Industries, that attempted to go mine asteroids before. Now, they had two different cases at the time. They wanted to mine them originally for water to refuel rockets. And then, later on, they started to look at the platinum group metals because of the high concentrations on these asteroids. So, I said, hold on, maybe I should be looking at these old business models and seeing if I have a lower entry point, maybe they make a lot of sense again. And that's what we did. That's how we landed on the idea of mining asteroids.

• 8:23Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  And you did ask a question to like, why not just do it on Earth?

• 8:26Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Right? Like, cool, why, why go to space and do it? And you also hear this argument that will say something like, well, we have enough material on Earth to, to mine kind of forever. Why even bother? There's this thing called cost and it's really important. And what we call the all-in sustaining cost of mining, especially on the platinum group metals, is extremely high. And the reason is, is the good orgates of platinum group metals are really deep in the ground. You know, when you go to South Africa where some of the best mines are, about 80% of our PGMs come from South Africa. Those mines are 1,500 to 2,000 meters deep. Like, these are not easy.

• 9:02Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  They are extremely deep in the ground, which means they're super hot, they're really dangerous, and we're kind of at the threshold of where we can mine. The mining industry as a whole has been making a big push to say, can we mine below 2,500 meters? And the question isn't actually, can we mine below 2,500 meters? Like, the answer to that is yes. Can we economically mine below 2,500 meters? The answer to that right now is a hard no. And so that's the problem that actually exists with us as humans, is we're not able to access a lot of the resources we have here on the planet because of, because of this thing called physics. We are now able to go, hopefully, mine asteroids for a fraction of the cost it takes on Earth. And we think of today, even at the prices we're seeing today on both launch and building

• 9:45Speaker 03

  the spacecraft, we're looking at margins upwards of 80%. Where a margin on, on Earth today for platinum on the high end is about 15%.

• 9:54Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. No shit. How, so, I mean, how did you, how do you know what's on an asteroid? How would you know which one to target? What's on it? Or is it just process of elimination?

• 10:08Speaker 03

  No, so, we study them. They hit the Earth all the time and we just rename them as meteorites. So, in our office, we have about 300 different meteorites that are just laying around. It's kind of comical, right? It's like, like the science center going on there to some extent. And we study the shell, right? We put them under what's called XRF or X-ray fluorescence and, and get samples from them. We have an electron microscope with another technology allows us to understand composition. We use all the time on them. And we really try to break down their structures and see what's on them. Now, when we talk about asteroids, be very clear, I'm not talking about all asteroids. I'm only talking about a small percentage of what we think is out there, which is about 5% that we believe to be the special type of asteroids called metal asteroids. So the real job of Astro4 is not, do they exist? We know they exist because they hit the planet all the time.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  We have a good example or concentration of what, where we think they are in the universe. In fact, NASA is sending a mission to one right now called the Psyche mission. It's a fucking awesome mission.

• 11:01Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, what is that?

• 11:02Speaker 03

  Psyche 16 is a main belt, large, believed to be M-type asteroid. And NASA about a year and a half ago launched a mission to Psyche 16 called the Psyche mission. It's on its way right now. Uh, I believe it gets there in about a year and a half from now. And we'll get our first images and spectral data from a direct orbiting metal asteroid. So it'd be really cool for the first time to actually see one up close. We've never been to one of these up close, right? We've only been to what are called, uh, I'm gonna use, the types get a little complicated here. We've only been to essentially rubble piles, a bunch of rocks, or kind of small little planets that we find in space. That's all we've really seen is asteroids or comets. This will be the first one to go to a metal asteroid.

• 11:42Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  By the way, what's really cool to think about a metal asteroid, if you think about it, um, we think metal asteroids are the core of a dead planet. So it's the same as the core of Earth. It's the same makeup. And that's why there are really high concentrations of dense material, because when you watch a planet form, all the dense material sinks to the bottom. So what we're essentially harvesting is a planet that for some reason blew up hundreds of millions of years ago, and I'm going out to like, mine the core of that planet. That's what we're doing.

• 12:11Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. I got a, I got a random question for you. You're talking about satellites, going out, taking pictures of planets. I mean, I don't know how far these things have gone. I mean, the James Webb, I mean, that's, where did that go?

• 12:25Speaker 03

  James Webb went to one of the grunge points. So James Webb went to the stable orbit on the other side of the moon. So James Webb is pretty far away. I actually don't know the distance, but I would assume the moon's about 240 million miles away. Sorry, 240,000 miles away. So Webb is probably somewhere in the range of 500,000 miles away. Uh, we're stationed right now. And that was so it doesn't get any reflection from the Earth, right? That's why they wanted it out there, so it could be super cool than not getting heat from the Earth to get better images.

• 12:51Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, so my question is, I mean, you see all these, these, I watch this stuff all the, you, you were talking about, you watch wartime Netflix specials. I watch space stuff all the time. And I always wonder how these, I mean, you see these like miraculous images from Uranus and, and... Way out there, right? And how are they, how do these communicate? How are they getting the imagery back to the earth?

• 13:16Speaker 03

  If you really want to dive deep, Sean, you can go read my blog post on this, which is like 10,000 words of the details here, but

• 13:24Speaker 03

  how do they communicate on earth is? So it's a lot of ways to think about this. At the end of the day, they're really far away. So they're losing a lot of radio power from the spacecraft over that great distance. So how do we communicate? Really twofold. Big ass dishes on the ground. So if you've ever seen like the early James, I should say early for me, James Bond movies with Pierce Brosnan, right? Where he's like in Russia and they're in front of like a big dish. Those are the fucking dishes we used to listen to the spacecraft. The one we used on our last, on our last mission was 32 meters across. So put that in your head. There's a hundred, 100 foot, you know, freedom units dish that we're pointing in space. And we have to be accurate to be within point one degree. So it's got a little tiny beam that we're trying to point out there. And that's just to get enough gain to pick up the signal from the satellite.

• 14:09Speaker 03

  On the satellite side, we use really, really powerful amplifiers. So spacecraft like Voyager, Psyche, um, New Horizons use what's called the traveling wave tube. And then get, you know, 100 dB gains. Now keep in mind, every three dB is twice the power. So you're talking exponential power growth to send back to earth. All of that being said, and I should quantify this maybe so it's a little bit easier to understand. We talk about something like,

• 14:38Speaker 03

  talk a little bit more about our spacecraft. We broadcast at about 15 watts. Your cell phone on its highest setting will broadcast at 100 milliwatts. Right? So we're, we're much, much more powerful than your cell phone can even get to. On top of that, the real trick we do here is we slow down the data substantially. So we communicate, um, you know, Voyager is communicating at 160 bits per second right now. Like you can, that, that is so slow. And that's why we have more integration time on the ground to determine if something is a one or a zero. So we're just adding it up at very high sample rates to say, oh, that was a one, that was a zero, but 160 bits per second. Think about that. If you want to send down a basic JPG image. That's gonna take you what, twenty, twenty days? Like, these things can be really slow.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  So then you have to start thinking about, well, what kind of high-end compression do we use? How did the spacecraft process these? How many bits do we send back? The nice thing about space is, most of it's black, so you can just like, make it one, one bit pattern, right, as you go through. But the details of communication are extremely hard when you go out that far. It is not an easy problem to solve whatsoever. It requires a whole bunch of infrastructure, what's called the deep space network, to make it happen.

• 15:45Shawn Ryan?

  So how, I mean, how far can these satellites go before we lose connection?

• 15:50Speaker 03

  I mean, Voyager right now is, uh, thirty-two billion miles away from Earth. Someone should fact-check me on that, because it might be three-point-two billion, and I might have got my number wrong.

• 15:58Shawn Ryan?

  Whatever, billions.

• 16:00Speaker 03

  Billions of miles away from Earth, and I haven't done the link budget there. It can keep going, and I'm sure they can even slow down Voyager's bit rate even more to get farther. But we can go pretty far. It's an R-squared loss on, on, on the distance we go out. So it's going to keep getting farther and farther away, and we'll be able to talk with it, hopefully, until the spacecraft actually fails. I mean, think about that spacecraft. It's kind of insane to think about, right? Thing's been up there fifty years and it's still working.

• 16:24Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  And there's two of them.

• 16:26Shawn Ryan?

  That's wild.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:27Shawn Ryan?

  That's wild. What, I mean, how long have you been in, in space industry?

• 16:33Speaker 03

  I mean, look, I grew up in Pasadena, and there's the famous Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena. I mean, my first, my first intro to space was touring in an elementary school. Like, I've, I've always loved space, but I think more importantly, I've always loved technology. It's not always refocused around space. It's focused around the cool missions that go out, the things that happen. Space also can be really boring, and I think we forget about that as, as humans sometimes. Like, when we went to the moon, that was a really exciting time in space. And then we made the space shuttle.

• 17:02Speaker 00

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• 17:32Speaker 01

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  I didn't give a shit about the space shuttle. I don't know how many kids of my generation were just bored with NASA, like, "Oh, cool, you guys built an orbiter. Great." Like, it's all cool, and I'm sure there's a whole bunch of scientific rationale, but it didn't inspire you to go explore. And in fact, NASA has still done some great planetary science missions and really has pushed the envelope on this.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  And I think will continue to push the envelope on planetary exploration and science. And those are inspiring missions, but they don't get a ton of press because they don't have people on them. You know, they're very much in the community as you look at it. I hope a little bit that we can bring that back. I hope by lowering the cost of entry to go explore the universe, we can bring back the inspiration piece as well. You know, again, if I can do this for double-digit millions, you now have private institutions that can go do this, universities that can go do this, and we can go inspire a whole new generation of people to go explore.

• 18:57Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, I mean, do you know anything about... I'm going down some rabbit holes here, sorry.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  Let's go down them.

• 19:02Shawn Ryan?

  I got you here, so I gotta ask this. I want to know about this dark matter stuff. What is it? What's going on?

• 19:09Speaker 03

  Look, I know absolutely shit about dark matter.

• 19:12Shawn Ryan?

  Damn it!

• 19:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, sorry.

• 19:14Shawn Ryan?

  It's all good.

• 19:15Speaker 03

  No, but what I will say is that the reason we have so many questions about dark matter is because we just haven't been able to put the instrumentation in space to go explore. I mean, dark matter was discovered by mistake, right? And the way it was discovered was calculating gravity and realizing, like, hold on, these planets in these solar systems, we can see, really, I should say, these stars around these galaxies far away are going too fast. And if we do our normal calculation, they should fly off. Which means our mass calculation is wrong. Why is our mouse mass calculation wrong? One theory for that is dark matter. But really what we're saying is our math doesn't work on on the model we're using. It's broken. And I think the most widely accepted solution to that mass or to that to that math is that there's extra mass that we can't see.

• 19:59Speaker 03

  And so we call it dark matter because we can't see it.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  I hope we put more science in space to go figure this out. I want to figure out why the fuck we're here. Right? I want to figure out if there's aliens. I want to figure out what the universe has built, how we did it. What is a new branch of physics we can go discover? There's so many things that space has unlocked for us as these key pieces in time, including dark matter. But because of the limited availability to actually go explore it, it's just handcuffed. And so unless you're willing to be a top notch professor that spends 20 years writing proposals and hopefully gets your mission approved and then hopefully gets it launched and then hopefully doesn't get it canceled. And then maybe you'll make a really cool scientific discovery. I don't think that's the best process.

• 20:43Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it's some of these documentaries, they kind of allude to the fact that it might be some type of a new energy source. I mean, you think there's anything to that?

• 20:52Speaker 03

  I love to go down these branches of physics and try to understand them and try to figure out like you have you have antimatter, you got dark matter, you got all these different states, you got all these different theories, you got theories on on variable light theory. Like there's all these really cool theories that are out there that you can go read and explore. Here's the reality shot. I'm too stupid to understand all of them. I'm not going to pretend like I'm the genius on all this stuff, right?

• 21:14Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I appreciate it.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  I think it's really cool for me to go read these and what I would always suggest, because we all fall down this rabbit hole, which is like we turn on the Discovery Channel and there's like some crazy dude with crazy hair on there being like, oh, if you vibrate an atom at this, it will turn into this and then teleport and you could like teleport humans and go read the actual papers. And usually you don't draw those same conclusions. You can get how they get there, but like the statistics to make that happen are infinitesimally small and non realistic. The best is here's a trick I would always recommend you use that that I've used a lot.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  Scientists don't get reached out to a lot. Call them. Just call them and say like, "Hey, I don't understand this. Can you help me understand it?" And they're some of the most helpful group of people I've ever run across. Some of the best things we have done at Astroforge are because I just emailed people on papers I read about certain things like metal asteroids. And you get in touch with these epic scientists who are willing to pick up the phone and talk to you. And they'll talk to you for hours. And like, that amount of information I get from just calling people has changed the course of the company and my life. And you can do that as well, right? Anybody listening can do that as well of like, "These people are all-stars in the science community, but they're still accessible to you. Just reach out."

• 22:28Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think there's aliens out there? You'd mentioned that. I wasn't gonna go there, but hey, you brought it up. What do you think?

• 22:34Speaker 03

  Um, I hope there's aliens. Do I think, so here's the sad truth that I think I'm coming to more the realization that may exist.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  I think there's gotta be other intelligent life forms in the universe. There's too many stars, there's too many galaxies to statistically not have that be a case. I don't know if we can communicate with them or ever reach them. I don't know if physics will ever allow us to travel faster than light. And I have seen no convincing evidence that we can. And so because of that, I actually come up with this really sad scenario, which is, "Yeah, I think there are other civilizations out there." And I think we'll never have confirmed proof that they ever exist because we either cannot communicate with them or cannot travel to them in any way, shape, or form. And so I hope we're able to break that down. I hope I'm incorrect. I hope somebody listening is like, "Oh, this guy's an idiot. Here's the solution to that, and we can go travel faster than light?"

• 23:25Speaker 03

  Because we all see it in sci-fi movies, and it's what makes every sci-fi movie work. Yet it's one of the few things we don't have a theory on. And so that's, that's, I think, is the cold, hard reality of the universe. I do think there is life in our own solar system. I don't think there's intelligent life in our solar system. I'm pretty convinced that we're going to find microbes or signs of life on some of these moons, especially around Jupiter and some of these other places in the universe. Like, there's gotta be. It just doesn't make sense for there not to be. We've already seen the signs of it. But again, the limitation, Sean, is that we send these really expensive missions out. And if you're going to go be a scientist, you're probably not going to write like, please find my instrument that will detect aliens.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  You're going to say like, oh, I want to detect the building blocks of the universe on this planet. And that doesn't always correspond with like, can you see microbes? I hope that some of the missions we do in the future are going to do that, are actually going to be so low cost that they can go have, I don't know, microbe detection instruments on them that we can send out and land on Mars or some of these other planets, right? That's the future I want to see created.

• 24:29Shawn Ryan?

  What evidence have we found?

• 24:32Speaker 03

  Oh, God, you're asking me to go back through it. We found amino acids, right? We found some of the building blocks of life. Um, we found, yeah, water on Mars, right? That's been a big one that we've come across. It's crazy. We've, we've looked at Mars so many times and like you're seeing these discoveries now and it kind of makes you take a step back and realize like, we think of Mars, at least I think of Mars as this little tiny thing in space that we've explored. And like the reality is, oh, no, no, we haven't explored it at all. Like, we barely scratched the surface of what is on Mars and finding water, finding ice is these huge discoveries that we've been going to Mars for 50 years and we just now figured this out. Like, what else are we missing? What else haven't we seen? We haven't gone subsurface. You know, we have these moons that we think are completely frozen and they have liquid water underneath them. Like, is there fish? Is there things swimming around down there?

• 25:17Speaker 03

  I don't know, but I really, really hope we get the chance to go figure it out and find out.

• 25:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, me too, me too. I mean, what do you think about all the, you know, the, the, the stuff that hits the news with these gravitic propulsion systems and things going in the water and coming out and all these sightings? What do you think? I love talking.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  You know, if you would have looked at the H12 or what became the SR71, right? Um, in the 1960s, what would you have chalked it up as? Because I would have said like, holy shit, there's aliens. Like, what is this thing? It's going Mach 3. It looks like this thing we've never, ever seen what's happening. And, and what you realize is like, that actually isn't aliens. That was humans, right? That was Skunk Works and Kelly Johnson that built that. And, um, it was physics that dictated that design. And I think what we've forgot is that we keep in our brain extenuate that out to like, well, what's the SR seventy two? In fact, we've seen advertisements for the SR seventy two, and it looks like a plane. We can all recognize, we can all draw the lineage from that to this. What we haven't looked at is like, well, what are governments? And I don't even mean our government, right?

• 26:25Speaker 03

  This could be China, this could be Russia, this could be us, this could be any developing nation that's pushing the envelope. But we're all focused on air. I don't think air matters anymore. We've seen satellites kind of dominate our ability to get data. We don't really need reconnaissance aircraft anymore. What is the government building in the oceans? What are they building that goes in and out of the oceans? Like, are these just manmade objects that are classified and we don't have access to? Probably, that's probably the most likelihood thing of what we're going to see there from a probabilistic standpoint. Do I really hope they're like little aliens that are gonna come and all of a sudden like, you know, come out with their little guns like, you know, Mars attack style? And like, fuck, yeah. But I find it really hard to extrapolate to that.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  And also, put yourself in the shoes of an alien. If you came to a planet with a civilization that you could just dominate through a will of force, what would you do, Sean? Would you go hide in the ocean?

• 27:22Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know what I would do.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  I tell you what I would do. I'd become the fucking emperor of the world, and it would be sick. That's what I would do, right? Like, I would, I would say, all you people are now dominant, like, I dominate all of you, I got better technology, I'm gonna at least be known. I'm not gonna go hide in the middle of the Pacific where like one, there's not even anything in the middle of Pacific, like, what a boring place to go. So it just doesn't make sense to me, right? I can't connect the dots that these are actual aliens coming here.

• 27:46Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe we're an experiment and they're just monitoring.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  That'd be a cool outcome, right? Like, again, I hope there is intelligent life, and I hope that is what's going on. I just, it's this hard thing where, until we have evidence, it's really hard to draw any delineation here to anything special happening, and, you know. You gotta have extraordinary evidence to make extraordinary claims. And I just haven't seen any extraordinary evidence to suggest that anything is here, other than some like shitty videos showing some things move in ways that we can't describe. And I think that's really cool to study. I think you can do calculations to figure out like, oh, actually, humans can't be in there. They would be killed by gravity, right? Like, G-forces are too high if we do this. And you can do math on these and kind of get a sense of what's going on and how we do this.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  But let's be honest, the F-22 was was essentially handcuffed because pilots can't handle the G-forces in it. And that was what went into, I think that went into service in 1984. I think it started its development in the late 70s. You're telling me that, like, oh, all of a sudden after 1994, we're just like, okay, cool. You know, we can be, we can be G-forces on the human body on airframes now. We're just gonna stop development. Like, I could just extrapolate it out and say 30 years later, yeah, that probably went up even more. And maybe some of these G-forces we can calculate are now realistic with some of the propulsion techniques we're using. I don't know. There's a whole bunch of new propulsion techniques out there that some, uh, there's one that I've looked at a lot.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  It's called a rotating detonating engine, RDE. There's a couple of companies now building them, which is pretty awesome. I'd love to see this. Russia did a whole bunch of publications here until 2010 and then stopped.

• 29:29Shawn Ryan?

  What is it?

• 29:30Speaker 03

  It's a very special type of engine that allows you to get theoretically, it uses a totally different, instead of using combustion, it uses detonation. So you can get much more efficiency out of the same fuel sources going into it. Best way to put it is, you could take something like a Falcon 9 and by replacing the engine with one of these RDEs, make it lift as much mass as a Falcon Heavy, right? So you can essentially make a rocket much, much better by using these engines. It's a long extrapolation. There's a lot of questions to them. There's a lot of physics to still be figured out. But why did Russia go silent in 2010? Like, did they just give up on developing it? Maybe. Or did they make some breakthroughs that they didn't want to release anymore that now enables these type of technologies to exist, right? Hypersonic missiles are a big, big thing that we're looking at with RDEs.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  There's a lot of cool things you can draw from this that don't require you to believe in aliens. As much as I want to, Sean, I just, I find it hard to believe they exist. And if they did, God, I wish they were cooler because, again, I want to see like Emperor Alien.

• 30:29Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know. I don't. I don't. I'm leaning towards no, they don't exist. I've interviewed a bunch of people about this stuff and I just, it's, it's all, oh, that's classified. That's classified to this, that, you know, and it's just, it's like, all right. So nobody really knows anything.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  So much of what is classified is not like, it's not like you get a clearance and all of a sudden you walk in a skiff and they're like, oh, hey, actually there's fucking aliens and they fly these ships. They're like, you walk in there and they're like, here's the frequency, you know, like that, that's it. Like, what are we talking about here? Right? Like, this is not how it works. And I think movies have really turned our brain to think there's some area 52 where they have element 114. And like, I love all, I think they're awesome to go explore and you gotta go explore whenever you hear new things like this. It just doesn't make sense to me though, and, and understanding how the government works, like, I'm sorry. The government is one of the most inefficient things I've ever seen operate. And usually everything that comes out, like, we got the, the, the signal messages from the secretary of defense.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  They couldn't even hide that. You're telling me that we're gonna go hide like secret alien aircraft underneath a mountain and nobody's gonna leak this? Please, I, I just, I can't, I can't draw that conclusion.

• 31:43Shawn Ryan?

  I'm with you. I'm with you.

• 31:46Shawn Ryan?

  Man, well, back to asteroids. Let's get back to, let's get back to asteroids. So, you know, I'm, you're the second guy that I've had on that's talking about mining stuff in space. I had this, uh, gentleman on Steve Quast and, uh, he's, he's, he was, he came in and he was talking about how China is mining helium three off the backside of the moon for, for, for energy. Have you heard about this?

• 32:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't think, first off, China is not mining helium three off the backside of the moon for energy right now. Uh, it has been theorized, there's a couple of companies in the United States going after helium three mining off the moon. So what happens is when you have the solar, the solar flux coming through, like we have an atmosphere on earth, so we don't have this happen. On the moon, high energy protons will hit those, probably saying this wrong, some physicists will yell at me, right? But some particles from the sun hit the helium atoms on the moon and will create this, this isotope helium three. And, uh, that's what people want to go mine because it, it has really good power properties. It allows you to cool things really, really low and it's theoretically worth a lot of money. I think there's a couple of problems with helium three.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  I think this is something we get wrong a lot when we look at companies and we look at markets, which is the market cap. It's my same problem with rare earth metals as we go into it, right? The market cap for helium three is extremely low. So helium three in 2023 had a total market cap of 5.8 million dollars. So yeah, it might be worth 100 million dollars a kilogram or 20 million dollars a kilogram, or whatever the number is, but like that's not how economics work, right? It's supply and demand. And if you increase the supply, you lower the demand. Thus, the cost goes down. There's all these people that study this, but again, basic business isn't that hard. And sometimes we try to convolute it. It's pretty straightforward.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  Helium three has a really small market cap. Now, it may grow. And one of the ways we think helium three may grow is with nuclear, right? We've talked about fission reactors being able to use off helium three. And there's this whole philosophy, how to get there.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  The big problem with that is that nuclear reactors make helium three. It's one of the byproducts of them. So we know how to make helium three on Earth.

• 33:58Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  I don't think there's going to be a supply problem as we go into the future. But the cool thing is startups is we all get to make these different theses and bets on what's going to happen. And maybe I'm wrong, right? There is also another theory that says on the positive side for helium three, that quantum computing is going to use it at a high level.

• 34:18Speaker 03

  Someone makes a breakthrough tomorrow on quantum computing and it takes off like, I could be totally wrong and this shit could be worth 10, 10x, right? And those are the huge markets you can go into. But as of today, it's a really small market. And it's one of the things that will allow us, it's one of the few economic use cases you could even think of on the moon right now. Because the reality is like lunar dirt is pretty much the same as the dirt we have here, right? Maybe it's a little bit higher in aluminum content, I believe, than what we have here. Sure, some geologists can give you some details, but it's not really that different. There's nothing that's special in it.

• 34:47Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. So when we're talking about metals like platinum and, and, and what, what other metals are you looking at?

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Really, right now, we're looking at the platinum group metals, right? Massive market caps. The platinum group metals used in manufacturing last year was about 60 billion dollars. That's the market we want to go after. I'm not even talking about the store of wealth. Like people will wear platinum as jewelry, things like this, right? But.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  Platinum group metals enable the future. So you've probably had a lot of people come on this show recently and talk about, I see your nuclear hat over there, that's why I'm talking about this. Uh, and I know you've had Scott Nolan on here and some others talk about nuclear. Isaiah Taylor. Energy demand as it's growing.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  And I think they're right.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  The one piece they're forgetting on that, in my opinion, though, is like, that's not the only thing that goes into a big data center. The other thing that goes into a big data center are computer chips, right? That mostly Nvidia is making that go built in. What metals use to make computer chips? One of the biggest metals consumers in making ASICs is the platinum group metals. So I think in the future, and look, we can go on this long road about capitalism. Capitalism requires you to have a pretty high growth rate as a country. We have to keep growing, right? We have to grow two to three percent a year to maintain capitalism. If we become flat like this system does not work. And that's really how we've driven it. That means we're going to have to have exponential growth as we go into the next century and it's going to get huge. We're going to have all of these things. Energy is going to have to grow exponentially. So are

• 36:15Speaker 03

  materials. And the one I'm going after on the material front, just like these guys are going after on the power front, is the platinum group metals. We use it in computer chips. We use it in your cars. We use it to treat cancer. Like, it's used throughout our lives. The honest truth is, Sean, it's just not a sexy metal. Like, if you ever look at this stuff, it's kind of boring. It looks like some gray, like, iron shavings. You're like, cool, what is this shit? Don't care. Um, but it's a, it's a pretty important metal to our way of life. Yeah. So how abundant is it on some of these asteroids? I mean, look, we got examples of asteroids that are extremely rich in the platinum group metals. We have one that's just above one percent platinum group metal by mass in the office. Now, that is an N of one, right? As a, as a general part, they're probably going to be about two orders of magnitude lower than that as a general concentration. But compare that to what we have

• 36:59Speaker 03

  in South Africa. We have a mine in South Africa that's eight parts per billion. Like, it's a very, very thin margin of what we have on ore quality here on Earth. So these things on average are about five to 10,000 times better than the best ore mines we have on Earth. Wow. So, you know, Mike, we were just talking about

• 37:18Shawn Ryan?

  Margins and supply and demand and all that stuff. So if if platinum is that abundant on asteroids and I don't know, we'll get into how you're going to mine it and bring it back and all that stuff. I mean, wouldn't that lower the demand by quite a quite a bit?

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Of course, but that doesn't happen overnight, right? And so I'll give you two different futures, both of which I'm happy to create. And I really don't have a I really don't actually care which one happens. I shouldn't say that out loud, but I really don't give a shit. Um, so again, sixty billion dollar market cap. Now, keep in mind, on our first mission, we're going to bring back sixty million dollars worth of platinum. That's a drop in the bucket.

• 37:54Shawn Ryan?

  On the first mission?

• 37:55Speaker 03

  On the first mission that we go do the mining on, right? That'll happen, that will launch in about two years. Um, we'll bring back.

• 38:00Shawn Ryan?

  Real quick, before we go on, how how much is sixty million dollars worth?

• 38:04Speaker 03

  A thousand kilograms of the platinum group metals.

• 38:06Shawn Ryan?

  A thousand kilograms?

• 38:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, of these six elements, right? So that's at the expected concentration. We expect it to be worth right around sixty million. It's a commodity. They vary, right? You might by the time the show comes out, it might be twice as much or half as much. It's actually gone up quite a bit in the last two months, um, as this goes forward. But we bring back around sixty million. So when you look at that into a market cap of sixty billion, we look at elasticity of this element, like, that's not going to affect the price at all, right? It's like, if you go take your gold ring and and turn it into pawn shop, you don't affect the price of gold. Now, if you go take, you know, back up a Brink's truck with with a thousand tons of gold, like, you're probably going to fuck the price up a little bit. But the other thing here is, I think

• 38:49Speaker 03

  we all got to be reminded of someone named Napoleon. And the reason is Napoleon, his silverware is made out of aluminum. Because in the seventeen, I don't even know when this guy lived, right? Seventeen eighties or whatever, you know, some shit like that. Um, the most baller shit you could have was aluminum. So like, he's eaten with aluminum silverware because it was the it was what the kings, you know, the kings had. And then we found this new process to make aluminum. And now, if you have aluminum silverware, you're like, what is this garbage? Like, can you make it out of steel? It's a little heavier, like, or or water bottles are aluminum. The airplane I flew here is aluminum. Like, our actual modern way of life was created because of this process of extracting aluminum. We knew about aluminum before. We knew what it was. The difference was is the cost of aluminum was astronomical.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  Do you have those same analogies to platinum right now? Platinum costs are very high. They're astronomical because it's a supply and demand created ecosystem. But you've probably heard of hydrogen. Um, the way you make green hydrogen, so it isn't spewing out carbon and isn't just, you know, being a less effective energy transfer is with a platinum catalyst. There's all these theoretical use cases, and I shouldn't even say theoretical. There's all these use cases for platinum that monetarily don't make any sense right now. That if you could flip the switch on, do. And so I'm happy with two outcomes. One is we have an aluminum revolution, right? We changed the way that we operate on this planet because we now have an abundance of a resource coming from outside of the earth. It allows our growth rate to continue. It allows us to expand out in the universe and it allows us to really, I think, level up

• 40:20Speaker 03

  as a civilization. The other use case is, is I bring back sixty million dollars at a time um into a massive market and we make a shitload of money. Either one of those I'm good with. We'll see which ones happens.

• 40:34Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, right on. So how far along are you?

• 40:38Speaker 03

  So.

• 40:38Shawn Ryan?

  In this, in the process to mining asteroids?

• 40:41Speaker 03

  We are getting ready for our next mission. Next mission's called Bestry. Bestry is a two hundred kilogram spacecraft. So it's a, for, for a deep spacecraft, by the way, that's extremely small, the, you know, uh, uh, on, on relative terms. And that'll go out and do a landing on one of these metal asteroids. So that's targeted to launch next year.

• 40:56Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 40:56Speaker 03

  Following year, we will send essentially Bestry part two. It'll be the same, same, same overall spacecraft, but we will add the refinery to it and return capability and we'll go out, mine the asteroid and bring it back to earth.

• 41:07Shawn Ryan?

  So the first one, what, what is the mission of the first one?

• 41:10Speaker 03

  So the first one, well, the first mission we launched, the first planetary mission we launched was one called Odin. We launched that in February. That was our first commercial attempt to go to deep space.

• 41:19Shawn Ryan?

  February of this year?

• 41:20Speaker 03

  February of this year. Smaller spacecraft went out. We made it about twice as far as the moon. So last signal we got from it was eight hundred and fifty thousand kilometers away from the planet. Uh, but one of those panels stuck. Didn't work, right? And that's the hard realities of space sometimes is these things don't always work. They don't always work the way you want to. And again, that's when it comes back to like. How resilient are you as a, as a leader of a company and how resilient is your company to pick up the pieces? Say, cool, we made some mistakes. We fucked it up. Let's go fix it.

• 41:47Shawn Ryan?

  So what happened there? Just you lost connection?

• 41:50Speaker 03

  Well, no, what happened there is when we departed Falcon, so you know, we, we fly on a Falcon nine SpaceX rocket. We're shot towards the moon on a, on a trajectory called translunar injection. It's the same trajectory the Apollo astronauts flew on. And we depart from the rocket and one of our solar panels did not open. And we don't actually know why. I have a couple of theories of why, right? As to why that could have happened. It's not really important though. Spacecraft didn't become power positive. And so what that means is we're constantly slowly draining our batteries with only one panel open, right? And we're, there was no way to save the spacecraft. We knew that thing was essentially broken pretty quickly into the mission. But you still see what you can do, how you can communicate with it. We were able to do one thing, which is update our navigation.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Like I mentioned, when you have a hundred meter dish and you have a point one degree beam width, like you have to know where you are in space. You have to know it pretty accurately. And we were one of the first commercial companies to ever do that for a, a deep space trajectory, right? Something going out past the moon to confirm that we could locate and navigate to our spacecraft and communicate with it. And that was some of the big successes of Odin. Big failure was didn't make it all the way ash right. It was supposed to do a flyby mission. Didn't happen.

• 42:57Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. So is it one satellite that it's not, it's not triangulating?

• 43:03Speaker 03

  No, it's one spacecraft. Nope. Nope. One, one satellite that goes out.

• 43:07Shawn Ryan?

  I'm sorry, dish, not satellite.

• 43:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, sorry. So well, we did send one satellite, but also one dish on the ground, right? And, and we use two different techniques. We use, um, what's, what's essentially called range and range rate. Very similar to GPS, very similar in the same way, except we don't have, you know, GPS requires four satellites to get a complete signal with time. We use one, and so we determine how far away we are and what velocity we're going. And then we have to propagate that through our filters to say where we should be, where we are, use it as an update. We know we're on a trajectory. Keep in mind, the spacecraft and Earth are moving in different relativistic trajectories from each other, right at the time. So while we're not triangulating with multiple dishes, what we are doing instead is waiting for Earth to move. And then getting an update, just like you would in, in a synthetic aperture radar. It's the same idea for how we do spacecraft communication, right?

• 43:52Speaker 03

  The Earth is moving away from the vehicle, so we get multiple data points of where it is and we can, we can correlate its trajectory out into space.

• 44:02Shawn Ryan?

  So what happens when, there's gotta be about what 12 hours where there's no connectivity, you're correct?

• 44:08Speaker 03

  So, the earth does get in our way. That's why we use multiple dishes, which, oh my God, for our last mission, we had like disaster central with multiple dishes. It was, it was a fun, it was a fun exercise in, in learning this. One thing that's a little bit different than us, Sean, than, than a lot of space companies right now, well, than all of them, is we're going to deep space. And so, what this is, is, is I'm assuming the same shit Elon went through with Falcon 1. You're dealing with antiquated infrastructure. So, our big dish, the 32 meter dish we used, was owned by ISRO, which is the Indian Space Agency. And we had to license it through a provider and then talk with them. We had a dish in the Azores that was owned by a totally different company that we had independently contracted with, with a different receiver stack and a different dish. And that dish actually caught

• 44:52Speaker 03

  on fire two days before launch, so we couldn't use it. We had one in the US that we could only use to receive, but not to transmit with the spacecraft. We had one in Australia, where we had a configuration issue with it early on. Um, but it was too small, it would only work for the first day. Like, it was just such a disparate thing, trying to work across all these different independent organizations to figure out how to talk with the spacecraft. So one of the biggest challenges we have is, how do we get access to these large dishes? And one of the changes we made on Vestry is, we actually added more gain on the spacecraft, so that the dishes on the ground could be smaller, so we could have access to more of them. And it's this kind of like, never-ending cycle. To give you a sense here, most spacecraft you hear about like Starlink or anything in low earth orbit, right?

• 45:37Speaker 03

  It's about a million times more power needed to communicate at the same data rate you would with Starlink to something that's at the moon. And we wanna go 30 times farther than the moon. So like, the dish size has to just be so much bigger than a little tiny dish that you can communicate with Starlink. That's why you can have something in your backpack that communicates with it, right? Or, when we launch rockets, we usually use two to three meter little dishes that sits on top of your roof. Like, those are easy, you know, a couple, cost 50 grand to go put up on your roof. Just doesn't work for us. It's one of the biggest challenges we got.

• 46:06Shawn Ryan?

  Are there any, I'm just curious, are there any national security concerns with using uh, space agency in India or of any other country?

• 46:17Speaker 03

  So, we don't fall under, well, we fall under some regulations, I shouldn't say any regulation right now, but realistically, no, I don't think we have formed a national security opinion about deep space. I don't think it's hotly contested right now. And the thing about it is, when you talk about, you know, there's been a lot of talk of Golden Dome and some of these like Chinese satellites moving in space and how we look at that, it's all in low Earth orbit. It's pretty close to us. It's a pretty confined, you know, volume that, that we're worried about. Uh, a lot of our really expensive satellites and really good national security assets are in MEO or GEO medium Earth orbit or, or geosynchronous orbit, like GPS. Um, we want to protect those assets and I think that's why the government cares a lot about those areas of space. The nice thing is, once you

• 46:59Speaker 03

  get past the moon, like, it expands. And there's nobody out there, like, even if you could go try to shoot me down, like, the orbits are really hard. There's a lot of energy needed to catch up with it. Like, it's almost impossible to actually access our spacecraft once it's past the moon by any other spacecraft unless it knows our trajectory before the launch.

• 47:17Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay, wow.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  The expanses here are crazy and when you really start to like put it on a map, you realize, I mean, it, it almost doesn't resonate in your brain, right? Like, something in lower orbit is 400 miles above us. You can see that with a telescope on the ground. We can study these, the space station. We all kind of have a sense of like what that picture looks like going down. There's the famous picture of Voyager, looking back on Earth, that pale blue dot picture you may have seen, which is like Earth is this little tiny speck. That's where we are, right? Like, that's the area we want to go operate in. It's a very different regime than what we have on Earth.

• 47:50Shawn Ryan?

  Who else is doing this? Anybody?

• 47:52Speaker 03

  I mean, there's other, there's other companies going after this, for sure. We have a couple of US companies that are going after it, but I think our biggest competitor is in China.

• 47:58Shawn Ryan?

  Really? What's China? How far along are they?

• 48:03Speaker 03

  I wish China would publish more, like I probably published too much. We're ve- I'm very transparent about the company. Like, I don't hide anything. We, we, we fuck up, I write about it, right? We do good, I write about it. I think that's really important is that whether it's us or somebody else, like humanity has to see this happen to, to again, maintain our way of life, like growth rates are exponential. Space mining has to happen at some point. I'm hopeful the timing is right now. I could be wrong. China doesn't take that same approach. They don't write about it. There's very little information that comes out. Um, we've had, uh, we've had some movie shit happen to us, Sean. We had some Chinese tourists show up at the door one time. Um, we've had a lot of requests to go to Hong Kong.

• 48:43Speaker 03

  It's, it's very interesting to see how China will try to work with you to see what information you have that can benefit some of their sta- state-backed companies. This is pretty clear. I'm sure everybody gets this to some extent. It's been comical. Like, I'm like, guys, could you maybe try a little harder and mix this up a little differently? Right as you go through it, but China's definitely very interested in what we're doing and I think very interested in trying to beat us at it. Interesting. I mean, how do you, how do you navigate through that? Be better. That's it. Like, I think the best way to, to, to beat anybody is just be better. There's nothing else. We could try to hide everything. We can try to keep our system super secure and spend all this money to, to kind of gatekeep everything and, and not tell anybody what we're doing. Or we could just go faster. And I think

• 49:29Speaker 03

  people have really seen that speed matters a lot. And this is the thing I preach all the time. It's like, speed matters. If you think you can do something tonight, do it. Don't wait till tomorrow, right? And that's how we beat anybody. And if we can be there first and we can do it first, there's a lot of things that allow us to continuously do that at a high rate. Keep in mind, Sean, I just gotta get to one of these asteroids. I make it to one. I can mine it multiple times. There's one asteroid we're looking at right now. It's about 400 meters in diameter. I really love it. It's got like all the right spectral data. It's, it's like this perfect asteroid that we, we think we can get to. I could mine it one E to the 15 times before it runs out of ore. Like, that's essentially infinity times, right? I'm not even gonna really do the math. That, that's a shitload of times. So I just gotta find one and I just gotta do it continuously.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  Once I have that, I can protect that asset pretty easily, both through UN law and

• 50:21Speaker 03

  with, with our military, right? Like, we know how to defend ourselves in, in every adversarial situation. Wow. How far, I mean?

• 50:33Shawn Ryan?

  How how far out is that asteroid?

• 50:37Speaker 03

  So it's a really hard question to answer because it's rotating around the sun. I mean, it's orbiting around the sun. So at different times, it's different distances from us. There's times this asteroid has come within a million miles of the earth. There's times where like right now where there's asteroid is somewhere in the range of about 50 million miles away racing towards us. Right. And so when you have it going around the sun, there'll be a little bit of plane. For the most part, we're pretty in lockstep, but they'll be out of phase a little bit and they'll rotate at different speeds.

• 51:05Shawn Ryan?

  How many asteroids are there? I mean, is this a belt or is this just a random asteroid? I don't know much about this.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's something. So what we are going after is a specific type of asteroid called a near earth asteroid. These are newly discovered in 2000. I think we had discovered about seven of them. There's estimated now to be, we think scientifically it's 10 million of them. It's a good round number to to to think there is. Now, this ranges in particle size, you know, from down to like really, really small up to about a kilometer and a half in diameter.

• 51:35Speaker 03

  One really important thing happened recently, though, the Rubin Telescope came online. Rubin Observatory and in its first viewing, you know, found 4,000 bodies. Now about half of them were new. That's a huge discovery in a huge amount of time. And it really correlates to that paper saying, we think there's about 10 million of these near earth asteroids. What near earth asteroids do for us is just allow our trip times to be much shorter. If I have to go 10 million miles away from the earth, that's a lot faster than going out to the belt. Right. The asteroid belt, which is 300 million miles away from the earth, give or take. Takes a lot longer. You know, I mean, those those missions would be 14, 15 year missions to go out and mine a main belt asteroid and come back.

• 52:12Shawn Ryan?

  How long does it take you to get a million miles away?

• 52:14Speaker 03

  We want to do all our missions in less than two years. It's what allows us to keep the spacecraft cheap, small, higher risk. Like radiation is a bitch in space. You just get blasted by the sun and things like solar flares happen. Just, you know, we just wave by to our spacecraft as it as it gets destroyed. So like limiting the amount of time you're actually in that environment is pretty key to having a much more higher reliability spacecraft.

• 52:36Shawn Ryan?

  So it'd take two years and your your next launch is when?

• 52:39Speaker 03

  The max we look at is two years. Some of these missions take much less. But again, because we are not dedicated launch, like every interplanetary mission has been dedicated launch. This means they're on a rocket. They control exactly when that rocket takes off. And if they want to go to Jupiter, like you point the rocket at Jupiter and go to Jupiter. We don't get that option. We're going on a rideshare to the moon when the people that want to land on the moon decide to hit go. And so for us, we have to be really open to what asteroid we go to on any given time. We track about 20 asteroids for every single day for the next six years that we think are viable targets that we can get out to. That's how we kind of think about this. So there isn't one specific asteroid at any given time we're going to go to. They're some of my favorites, but they may or may not be in the launch window when we actually, when we actually take off on the earth.

• 53:23Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha, gotcha. And then as far as, I mean, are the, are these asteroids, these near earth asteroids, are they, sorry, I have no concept of distance in space. So

• 53:35Shawn Ryan?

  when you're saying they're orbiting around the sun, are they closer to the sun than earth or they farther?

• 53:40Speaker 03

  They are almost the exact same distance as the earth from the sun. Now, I say almost the exact same because, you know, we talk about this in astronomical units for distance from the earth to the sun, which is about 150 million miles. Sure, I got that off a little bit. We operate within plus or minus point one AU. So we operate within plus or minus 15 million miles from earth. So when you say that, if you are to look at the picture of the universe, they're going to look like they're like in the same orbit as earth. They're almost indistinguishable from earth orbit, most of the ones we're looking at. They are slightly off and that allows them to be at a little bit different, a little bit different orbital speeds and thus go in and out of accessibility for us.

• 54:17Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I want to talk about how you're actually going to mine the asteroid.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  Let's do it.

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• 56:11Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Matt, we're back from the break. We're getting ready to dive into, how are you gonna, how are you actually gonna extract metals from the asteroids?

• 56:23Speaker 03

  This is a fun one to talk about, right? So, the trick of an asteroid is when I get there, and let's, let's use a random number that's pretty simple for everybody to understand. Understanding, this is like, not, not what we're gonna run into. But let's say the asteroid is 1% platinum group metals. That means it's 99% shit that's not worth a lot of money. And so if I bring it back to Earth, that's just wasted material. So what I have to develop, and what we have developed, is essentially a machine that can turn 1% platinum group metals into a much higher percentage of platinum group metals. So what I'm returning is worth a lot. You may have seen, actually, there was a pretty famous article that came out, I think about three years ago right now, and it said, there's a hundred quadrillion, million, whatever bajillion-dollar asteroid out there in the world. It was referring to that asteroid Psyche 16 that I talk about,

• 57:07Speaker 03

  saying it. And the fallacy with that article is it was just calculating the iron content on Psyche. Like, you could put that same number on top of Mars. It actually doesn't mean anything. It's not economical to bring back. I'm not trying to mine iron. Like, iron's essentially free on the planet, right? The cost of iron is actually just the processing cost of it. There's plenty of ore everywhere. There's plenty of nickel everywhere. The thing we want to bring back is platinum. So the way we do it is, first off, we have to land on an asteroid. Now, the trick to landing on an asteroid for us is, these are primarily iron, right? They're M-type asteroids, or iron-nickel asteroids, which means they should be magnetic. So the way we land on it is, or I should say more

• 57:49Speaker 03

  dock with it. I mean, try to imagine this, Sean, is at the biggest sizes are 400 meters in diameter, which in relative terms means they're tiny as shit in space. Like, there's really no gravity here. You're not landing. You're not, we can't even really go into orbit around these asteroids. We almost dock with them like you would dock with the International Space Station, and we use magnets to stick to them. That's how we attach ourselves to the asteroids. I have, there's been a, there's an ESA mission that did a really complicated way to try to grapple onto an asteroid with these hooks, and it was pretty cool, and they spent a lot of money, I think about a billion dollars, trying to figure it out, and it kind of worked. I mean, they were able to do it, but it was a little bit fraught with air. I don't think as a startup, I have any other way to land on an asteroid, other than to magnetically attach to it. Landing on a piece of dirt, or a rubble pile

• 58:33Speaker 03

  in space that is really small like this is next to impossible, or I'm just not smart enough to figure it out for the capital we have. So we land on it, and then- How close do you have to get to it for the magnets to- Pretty close. I mean, we have to touch the surface, right? We gotta touch it. So, we'll essentially crash into it at about one meter a second. That's the upper limit of velocity we'll have when we intercept the asteroid. So, if you think about it, that's not slow, especially when you think about space hardware and how slow we usually go on space stuff, but it's not fast. It's a pretty low impact that we hit the asteroid with to attach to it. That's what we build the system for.

• 59:12Speaker 03

  And then what we do is we use a laser system. So we use a laser system to essentially start drilling into the asteroid. We remove the material. So we're removing iron, nickel, and platinum group metals. And then using that same philosophy that iron is magnetic and the platinum group metals are not, essentially use magnets to reject the iron. And we keep the platinum group metals inside the spacecraft. It's a pretty simple approach to do it. Now, keep in mind, I'm 10 million miles away and I'm a startup. If I start coming out here with, we got robot arms and we got conveyor belts and like, it's just not gonna happen. I mean, if you look at any spacecraft, they're hard enough to fly when shit isn't moving. And then when you start to add mechatronics to it, like, they're next to impossible, right? I mean, look at the arm that we developed, that not we actually, Canada did, MBA on the, on the space shuttle.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  That was a huge undertaking to get two actuators to work correctly. Like, it's really hard to do that in space. So we just can't do it. I don't want to have the team. Keeping it simple is part of one of, is one of the biggest philosophies we have at the company. And so we'll store that and then we just essentially launch the spacecraft back at Earth. There's nothing special here. We crash into the atmosphere, use a heat shield to burn off kinetic energy and recover the material. In fact, the really cool thing about a spacecraft that's just mining and doesn't do any scientific exploration is, I don't have to have all these weird constraints. It doesn't have to land nicely, right? It doesn't have to have nice parachutes that come out to slow you down really slow, so I don't like hurt my precious cargo. In fact, I don't think we're gonna use parachutes. What we're probably going to use is if, you remember when you were a kid and you would launch little model rockets and then have streamers?

• 1:00:41Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Probably just gonna use a streamer to slow it down enough so that when it impacts the ground, the metal is recoverable. And like, being able to remove those constraints of scientific instrumentation and value collection from it really opens up the envelope here. Wow. One thing that's a little bit crazy that I don't think a lot of people realize, you may not as well as, we've already mined asteroids before. We have? Like, the Japanese, JAXA, has done this twice and NASA has done it once. So the Japanese did it with a mission called Hayabusa 1 and Hayabusa 2. They both went out to asteroids, took samples from them and brought it back to Earth. And Osiris Rex went out to an asteroid called Benu, which is how we really found out about these rubble piles, right?

• 1:01:24Speaker 03

  Benu was a really cool asteroid. I think it was about a kilometer and a half in size. And it was just a whole bunch of essentially little particles stuck together with static electricity. And so if you ever watched the landing of Osiris Rex or landing, I call it landing because they didn't really land, they just like sunk into the surface. And then... This is where NASA does extremely good job and I don't think anybody else can do it to this level. They thought it was fucking solid. They go to land and they start sinking into the surface, but they had thought through this and had a theory that maybe it wasn't solid. What could we do? And we're actually able to like not just destroy the spacecraft by going into some random dirt. They backed up, they rewent around it, they rethought about it and were able to still grab a sample and complete the mission. Cyberx Rex returned a sample about a year ago now.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  Uh, that came back in a small capsule to be recovered. I think we recently, we recently opened it up. It was really difficult for, for us to open for some reason.

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  But so we understand the physics to all this. There isn't some like physics barrier. We have to get past the mind in asteroid. This is simply, can we do it cheaper and economically to make it work?

• 1:02:25Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding. Wow. So. How does the satellite actually get the metals inside of it? But I get the, the magnetism pushing the iron and all the other shit away. Would it, does it have like an arm that comes out to?

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  No, in fact, the metal, uh, and the way we do it with ring magnets is the, the platinum group metals flow up through the middle of the spacecraft. And essentially are trapped in a very small Mylar bag. This isn't a lot of volume to bring back. Right? If you think about it, platinum group metals are some of the most densest elements on earth. It's a third of a meter cubed.

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  It's not a big amount of material, so.

• 1:03:04Shawn Ryan?

  Did you say it's a thousand KG?

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  A thousand KG is a third of a meter cubed of PGMs. It's not, it's not a lot of.

• 1:03:10Shawn Ryan?

  That's it?

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  Pretty small. Shit's really dense. That's why it's worth a lot of money, right? It's like, it's a very dense element that we're going after these six elements. So it kind of works out perfectly to be the first one we bring back. And then obviously Sean, as we look at it, like platinum is where we're starting. As prices change, as we're able to lower spacecraft, as we start thinking about things like, hey, we launched one at a time right now. What if we bought an entire Falcon nine? We could fit about 20 spacecraft on it. What if we bought an entire starship? We could fit, I don't know how many, but I'm sure it's a shitload of spacecraft on it, right? And like, as these technologies advance and, and we get lower cost into space, uh, we can do a lot more for cheaper. And then other metals start to meet that price threshold, right? You have indium. You have.

• 1:03:52Shawn Ryan?

  Indium.

• 1:03:53Speaker 03

  Indium is an element that's in pretty high concentration on these metal asteroids. We have quite a few of the rare earth elements on these, on these metal asteroids. You can look at nickel, you can look at iron, you can look at cobalt, right? You can look at these different elements and see when do they hit the price threshold where it makes sense to actually bring them back. Obviously, if our economy keeps expanding at that 3% per year as world GDP like, as I mentioned, we're gonna have to push out. We're going to use everything here. And those prices will continue to fall and this will continue to be more economically viable as we go into the future.

• 1:04:22Shawn Ryan?

  What do we use indium for?

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  I have no idea. Literally have no idea what we use indium for. I study it from an economic value proposition, not from a scientific one.

• 1:04:32Shawn Ryan?

  Any gold, silver?

• 1:04:34Speaker 03

  So gold is, uh, this is, gold is in higher concentrations on asteroids than it is in your backyard. They're not high enough for me to mine. Gold on Earth forms because of water. This is, I should say, high concentrations of gold form. Gold doesn't form. High concentrations of gold deposits form in the presence of water. This is why you see it in veins. And this is why, when you think of gold mining, you think of like painting for gold on a river, because that's where all the shit is. It's not really economically viable. We even have to remove too much material from the asteroid to get enough gold to make the return trip back right now.

• 1:05:06Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha. Gotcha. I mean, how?

• 1:05:14Shawn Ryan?

  How many, how many satellites do you think eventually you'll have up there?

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  The best way that I think, so,

• 1:05:23Speaker 03

  this is a question that has a little bit bigger meaning, which is, you know, kind of funny to me about, I think, a lot of founders is. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about like this grand future of how many satellites I'm gonna set up or what this is going to look like. I pretty much spend every waking moment making sure we're not fucking up the next mission and the mission after that. And that's about it, Sean. But there's a really easy abstraction here, which is, we can fit about 20 of our spacecraft in that 200 kilogram size point on a Falcon 9 and go to the moon, right, and do one of these TLI launches. And so I do see us in the near future, probably in the early 2030s, trying to launch 20 at a time. Uh, and if we do that, we can launch probably once a quarter with the volume we see to manufacture on, on the satellite buses. So we'll be somewhere in the range of about 100 per year that we would launch.

• 1:06:08Speaker 03

  That would probably be the max we do for the platinum group metals. Because after that, when you're at that throughput, then you start to affect the elasticity of the metal. Right? And that's when we start talking about the supply and demand curves getting out of whack. So I'm kind of upper limited to about 100 platinum group metal spacecraft per year.

• 1:06:24Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

  It's about $6 billion. Still, still pretty, I think, pretty good return on investment, right?

• 1:06:32Shawn Ryan?

  Sounds pretty good to me. But I mean, so, and if you're, so if you're targeting asteroids that take two years or less to get to, so you're looking at about roughly four years.

• 1:06:46Speaker 03

  No, no, two years or less round trip.

• 1:06:49Shawn Ryan?

  Round trip.

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  Two years or less round trip. All the asteroids we keep on the board, nine months or less to get to, three months to mine them and a year to come back. It's always a little bit longer to come back because we're heavier and we leave slowly. Um, so yeah, two years round trip is what we look at. That's what we cap it at.

• 1:07:02Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you, why do you think it take, why three months? Why does it take three months?

• 1:07:06Speaker 03

  That is what, so anytime you're going to build a system like this, I gotta give the team constraints. Right? I gotta say like, it's really easy. When we're talking about a laser based mining system, it's a linear trade between time and power. So when I say we have three kilowatts on the spacecraft and we have three months, you now know how much material you have to remove. It's really easy to say, oh, we have three kilo, we have three kilowatts. Well, I could use known techniques that work really well and just sit there for 10 years. But then I gotta build a spacecraft that can last in space for 10 plus years. That's actually really hard to do. So I've given the team the constraint of three kilowatts, three months. It's a pretty arbitrary constraint, Sean. Not gonna, not gonna say like, there's a whole bunch of science that goes into it. What there is science that goes into is the two years or less. And that has to do with radiation tolerance of the spacecraft, right?

• 1:07:50Speaker 03

  The electronics onboard can only handle so much radiation before they will start to fail at high rates. And that high rate failure in our spacecraft will start to happen around the three year mark with what we use today. So I want to make sure in two years, we're back on earth and safe. And then all the components can fail once we're back on the ground.

• 1:08:05Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. Will you be able to reuse these or rebuild them?

• 1:08:07Speaker 03

  Absolutely not. I, no, we have no plans to reuse them.

• 1:08:10Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:11Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, we're gonna fucking crash land them, right? Like keeping them light, keeping them cheap is pretty important to us at this point in time. And the economic use case for satellites at that scale that can be reusable is extremely difficult to make work. I think if, if not impossible. I think when you start looking at starship level reusability and these kind of massive structures, sure. You can talk about massive reusability when you're, you're putting a lot of capex into one of these projects. The reality is, man, I'm not Elon Musk. I don't have, you know, $50 billion behind me. I can just dump into one of these. I have to think really economical at the beginning and like, part of this is having the economic constraint as well. If we had unlimited money. We know how to mine an ashwin. It's called Dosimus Rex. It costs 1.2 billion dollars.

• 1:08:56Speaker 03

  You know, it's really easy to iterate to that works, that's a solution. It's not an economical business, though. We have to think cheap. We have to think light and we have to make those trades all the time of like, cost is in every trade study we do. And it's not a common thing for engineers to see. Most engineers are like, oh, you know, what's the feature? What's the requirement? How much do I get out of this? But like, cost is a big part of what we look at on every spacecraft build we do.

• 1:09:18Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

• 1:09:21Shawn Ryan?

  Who, who all is interested in, in what you're doing?

• 1:09:27Speaker 03

  I think there's a, well, I'll put it in three categories.

• 1:09:30Shawn Ryan?

  Who's gonna benefit? I mean, who, who you sell the metal to? That kind of stuff.

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the metal, we're going after a commodity. So the nice part is, is like, we have about eight billion dollars in, in off-take agreements right now. And they're kind of comical because it says like, if you bring me eight billion dollars in platinum, I will buy it from you. Like, it's really easy to sell this into the commodity market that will then be used. So who's gonna benefit from it?

• 1:09:54Speaker 03

  Tesla, Boeing, Nvidia, like every company that now has access to a US source base of platinum group metals. I should make one thing really clear. We have one platinum group metal mine in the United States. It's in Montana. It's called Spain Stillwater, and it's recently been shut down. So as of today, none of the platinum we have comes from the US. Now, some of it is recycled here, but none of the new input comes from the US. We talk a lot about the rare earth elements, and you probably see this in the news all the time, like Trump signing all these executive orders and M and P Materials got this huge investment and

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  the rare earth metals are a fraction of the market cap of the platinum group metals. And we have a lot of rare earth metal ore in the United States. The processing of the rare earth metals is very difficult.

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  We don't have a lot of platinum group metals in the United States. As we expand, platinum group metals, if we continuously use it at the way we use in the United States, we'll run out of it by 2035. Now, the reality is the globalization on the world, that's not how it works, and we come up with these deals, and, you know, half of this is like us posturing to other countries. And we've even seen this with rare earths, right? I mean, if you follow the news, it's like, every other day, China is giving us rare earths or they're not, and I can't really keep track, and we keep negotiating back and forth. It's like, this is how economies work, and this is actually a really beneficial way for economies to work. The next wave of this will be in platinum group metals. It's probably one of the most dangerous things that I foresee that we're coming up against, because it's one of the critical building blocks to what we do, and the United States doesn't have any.

• 1:11:27Shawn Ryan?

  So if you do this, I mean, how many other platinum mines are there in the world? Is there a ton of them, or is there not very many?

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  There's a whole plethora of them in South Africa. There's quite a bit in Russia. China has a couple. I don't know the exact number, though, but there's quite a few of them.

• 1:11:43Shawn Ryan?

  Well, so if you're successful in this, will US become the leader in platinum?

• 1:11:50Speaker 03

  US will become dominant platinum. In fact, I'm going to say this differently. 3% of global carbon emissions are caused by platinum group metal mining alone, because it's so deep, right? Because it's so deep, it's so hard to access, it requires so much to get it out. What if I told you a story of the future where we provide it from space at a fraction of the carbon cost, to the point where platinum group metal mining on the planet becomes banned? That's what I think the future holds for mining, especially on these critical elements. It's like, as soon as we can show that there's an economically feasible, reliable way to secure minerals from space, earth-based mining becomes regulated out of existence. And so, what Asher Forge can become one day is one of the first regulated monopolies, right?

• 1:12:34Speaker 03

  We can dominate the mineral supply chain, and also have laws in place where nobody else can dominate it. That's how I become the alien emperor.

• 1:12:44Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of, I mean, speaking of red tape and what kind of, what kind of red tape are you dealing with? Is the government involved?

• 1:12:53Speaker 03

  Thank God, there was a company called Planetary Resources. Because with Ted Cruz, they teamed up to pass the 2015 Commercial Space Act Agreement. I actually don't think that's what it's called, so space agreement, something like this, whatever. 2015, some spaceship was passed. And what that says clear as day is, commercial companies in the United States can mine asteroids and sell the materials for money. Clear as day. So from a regulatory perspective, we don't have a concern in the United States. Now, we do have the 1967 Outer Space Treaty that the UN made.

• 1:13:26Speaker 03

  And it has some lines about, anything that's done in space must benefit all of humanity. So one of the common questions I get asked whenever I talk to any reporter that lives in Europe is how I'm going to share the wealth with the whole world. And I'll say on your podcast, my honest answer is, I'm fucking not.

• 1:13:45Shawn Ryan?

  Love it.

• 1:13:46Speaker 03

  I mean, like, I don't understand this logic. So, you know, it's this kind of,

• 1:13:51Speaker 03

  man, it's a trap that, that we love to fall into. Is this like, oh, if you're successful, you want to benefit. But if you're not successful, we're not willing to take the risk. And so what I'll say is like, hey, France, if you want to invest in Astroforge now, you can benefit from it. But you don't get to say at the end of the day, once we're successful, that, oh, we knew all along and now you need to share the wealth. Absolutely not. I do not think that is the best way for advancement of humans. Incentive alignment is a, is a big deal in everything you do, right? And if you're not going to align incentives, then I'm not interested in talking to you. And like, I think the world needs to take us, take a look at this. You know, for the last 50 years, capitalism has greatly improved the standard of living to, I was thinking about this on, on a plane flight over here, Sean.

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  Even though I'm in a plane and I'm at, you know, forty thousand feet or whatever in this little tiny seat like this, like, my standard of living is still probably higher than like a king in the sixteen hundreds. Not from a volume perspective, but like I could have hot water, I could have cold water. I can use the bathroom and like it flushes and then not some dude at the bottom like scrubbing it. We have toilet paper, like we have advanced so much as a human species and it's exponentially increasing. And that's because of the way we govern ourselves and we've progressed into the future. Capitalism is the dominant force behind that and I want to see that continue into the future.

• 1:15:11Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, as far as spreading the wealth, I mean, it's it's gonna happen, right? If you sell, if if Nvidia takes a bunch of platinum, then that's not anymore computer chips. So there you go.

• 1:15:22Speaker 03

  Let's think about leveling up humanity, not leveling up individuals, right? And I think as soon as you look at this from a greed perspective, like, you know, France or another country. I'm blaming this all on France, I don't even know why. Um, but another country coming in and saying like, we want our fair share, like, it's not how it works. But let me hope that I can help level up the entire world so our standard of living is even higher than it is today. That's the goal.

• 1:15:45Shawn Ryan?

  Is the is the administration excited about this? I mean, is, do you have any talks within government?

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  No, you know, we haven't. So I've had a very different approach to government than a lot of people that I think you see in space. Space has always started with, and you'll hear this all the time, you want to have a space company? Like you start with the government and then you go pretend you have a commercial use case. And we've invented some cool words that have even got into the regulatory bodies called like dual use technologies, right? Um, I have a very different view on this, which is, I don't really believe any of it. You know what's a great dual use technology? Like a Mac laptop. It's really the only thing I think the government buys and commercial customers buy. But, you know, about a year ago, I talked to a cruise missile company and they told me they were dual use.

• 1:16:36Speaker 03

  The fuck is your commercial use? What can I buy a cruise missile? Like, I mean, that'd be pretty legit, right? But I don't think this makes any sense. And I think a lot of in space, we get trapped in this thing of like, we build geo satellites for the US government, but we're dual use because a commercial company is going to want them. Hmm, I find that hard to believe and hard to see. And you'll see a couple of examples here, but it's pretty rare that commercial actually takes a bite at these at any kind of level that makes a commercial viable use case. I want an Astroforce to be a commercial space company. And so we did not start off with the government. We started off with the mining industry. What do I do with this material? Who can I bring it to? How can I underwrite this company differently? Right? Can I get investors to believe in the mission of trying to upend all earth mining?

• 1:17:19Speaker 03

  That being said, at this point, we have now gone the other way with dual use, which is said, cool. Now that we are developing a low cost, really cheap spacecraft that can access the cosmos, can we start to work with the government on it? As a way where this is viable. I'm not interested in things that are not directly applicable to what we're doing in our space mission. If you want to go send a satellite bus to low earth orbit, there's a lot of companies doing that. Please go talk to them. Don't fucking talk to me. I'm not interested, right? I guess the honest truth, because that kills the dream of the company. It kills the dream of what we're doing. And I'm also just not interested in low earth orbit. Like I said, the space shuttle kind of like ruined my childhood. I don't want to continuously ruin my childhood because there's a great economic use case in low earth orbit potentially. It's not important.

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  What's important is we have a mission to go mine, go mine the cosmos. And if we could help the government along that way, I'm all for it. And so those are the conversations we started to have, especially around the moon, around, you know, this keyword of like space domain awareness around lunar and as we go out further. And also, we have probably one of the most advanced detection algorithms for how we see things in space. Because keep in mind, we got to find these asteroids on our spacecraft. Like, we know in the general realm of where they are, but usually we're off by plus or minus two to 3,000 kilometers. So we have to be able to find it in these boxes. Those detection algorithms work really well for other things that you can imagine. And so those are the type of areas we started to branch off into with the government.

• 1:18:45Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think, I mean, you know, and I don't know how real this is. I don't really believe much I see on any news outlets. But you always, you always see these things pop up every once in a while. It's, oh, this asteroid is going to be, you know, X amount of miles when it passes the earth. It's the closest encounter we've had. This one's going to hit the earth and. I don't know, seventy-five years. Do you think that your company could be used to? I mean, where I'm going is I saw the movie Armageddon a long time ago. Do you think you could be used for something like that to, to?

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  I'm gonna save the world, Sean.

• 1:19:19Shawn Ryan?

  Explode an asteroid that's gonna strike the Earth.

• 1:19:23Speaker 03

  Um, this is a detailed question, but in essence, yes, hundred percent. I mean, one of the things we're talking with the government about is exactly this planetary defense.

• 1:19:30Shawn Ryan?

  You are talking to the government.

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  Of course, like I said, I said, we just went the other way, right? We started with commercial and then we'll shift it over to use cases in the government. We didn't go from government to commercial. I don't think that approach leads to a commercially sound company. It may lead to a Boeing, right, or a Raytheon, which, by the way, I shouldn't say that's a bad thing. You can make a lot of money off that. It's just not in my interest line.

• 1:19:52Speaker 03

  Planetary defense is a big deal, for sure, and planetary defense is all about early detection and how we get there. And so it needs to have multiple things. It needs to have ground-based assets that can help detect these, like Ruben. You know, we can find thousands of asteroids and determine if any of them are going to detect us. Um, and then we need to be able to access them quickly. And I think this is where we come in. A lot of people, a lot of companies that go build deep spacecraft like Maxar, which we'll contract through JPL to build big buses, will take five to ten years to build a spacecraft, right? Because they start off very differently. It's a very different thought process. They also require dedicated launch. We require neither of those, right? We can build them very quickly and we don't require dedicated launch. We're almost perfect for this mission as we go out there. The other thing is, you gotta do something with the asteroid when you get there.

• 1:20:36Speaker 03

  What do I talk about in a refinery? We essentially reject a large amount of material. Well, when you reject that, even though it's very small, when you shoot an iron atom off an asteroid, it imparts a force into the asteroid to push it one direction. And so if we can continue to remove material and throw it out, you can start to steer asteroids. Now, I want to be clear, you can't steer them very much. And this is why it matters how early we detect it. If we detect an asteroid that's pointed right at Earth and it's three months away. Start having parties like there we ain't gonna do shit. But if we detect it 10 years in advance and we can, you know, put very, very small changes in it. We can hopefully steer it away from the earth enough to minimize the impact. A lot of cases, you're talking about impact minimization, not necessarily going to completely get it away from the planet.

• 1:21:21Speaker 03

  There's an asteroid called Apotheus. That's getting more and more press in the news that's coming by in 2029. And we believe will break up when it comes by the earth. And depending on how it breaks up, there may be some re-impact in, I think, 2034. Not to scare anybody, these will be relatively small size impacts. We're really good at predicting them. We can evacuate cities if they're gonna hit them. They'll probably land in the oceans, though, just on statistics. And those kind of missions are what we're kind of set out and purpose-built for.

• 1:21:51Shawn Ryan?

  How long did it take for those discussions to start?

• 1:21:55Speaker 03

  With planetary defense?

• 1:21:59Shawn Ryan?

  Who brought it up? Was it you?

• 1:22:01Speaker 03

  No, actually planetary defense was brought to us by NASA to ask if we could help with these kind of missions as we've gone out there. So it's not something that we bring up a lot. Again, I gotta keep the, Sean, the problem that is with government work is you become a government company. And if you ever have worked at Boeing or anybody that contracts with the government, which I have, not with Boeing, but with a government contractor. It's a very different methodology. You have time cards, you're keeping track of your hourly rates, you're trying to manage all this. And what it becomes is marginal dollars for a service. You're a consulting service, right? Now, you're just consulting for what the government wants. That is not the company I want to build. I do not think that is the most efficient company you can build.

• 1:22:42Speaker 03

  I want highly motivated people that are willing to go explore the universe and work really fucking hard seven days a week. And that doesn't jive with the culture of a Boeing. Not saying those people don't work hard, but they work hard for a dollar amount that is calculated as an hourly rate that is charged to a charge number on a contract. The incentives, again, are just misaligned and that's where we get different here. So for us, if we can go work with NASA in a way where we can have aligned incentives with them, amazing. If we go with private institutions or even the government in a way where incentives are aligned, I'm all for it. If I need to become Boeing 2.0, which, let's say all of a sudden we get a billion dollar contract tomorrow to become Boeing 2.0, great. Get a new CEO.

• 1:23:26Speaker 03

  Not interested. I have zero passion for it.

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• 1:24:32Shawn Ryan?

  You're driven. You know exactly what you want. That's...

• 1:24:36Speaker 03

  That's it, right? Like, it's not... That's the whole point of starting companies, I think. I mean, again, you could look at every single... You can go to get your MBA from any university and sit there and do a whole bunch of mouth and be like, "I found this economic opportunity." There's plenty of people that do that, and they're very good at it, and they can make a lot of money, and they're super respected, and I know a lot of them, and I have nothing bad to say about them. I'm just not that person.

• 1:24:59Shawn Ryan?

  What were you gonna do for NASA?

• 1:25:01Speaker 03

  Work on Europa Clipper.

• 1:25:02Shawn Ryan?

  On what?

• 1:25:03Speaker 03

  Work on Europa Clipper.

• 1:25:04Shawn Ryan?

  What is that?

• 1:25:04Speaker 03

  That is the mission going out to the moon Europa, to go do a scientific discovery mission on it, right? It was a big NASA Class A mission, cost $5.5 billion. I was gonna be a piece of that wheel at JPL. And then, you know, at JPL, like, you get hired, you work on some of these, and you go on to the next mission, and blah, blah, blah, as you go through. A lot of people have had really great careers at JPL and gonna talk about some really cool stuff. And JPL has these inspirational pictures of people working on Voyager, and people working on, you know, Curiosity and Spirit and Opportunity, and like, these kind of monumental missions that we've done as humans. A lot of them have come out of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. So, again, it's not about cash. It's not even about the job. It's about... You could be a small part of writing history.

• 1:25:47Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, where did you say they're going?

• 1:25:50Speaker 03

  Europa Clipper is going to one of the moons. It's going to Europa.

• 1:25:53Shawn Ryan?

  Which moon is that? Where's that?

• 1:25:54Speaker 03

  It's a moon of Saturn. Fact check me on that. Is it Saturn or Jupiter?

• 1:25:59Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, that's pretty cool, man, that you got, you had the opportunity to do that. And you switched and started this.

• 1:26:08Speaker 03

  It's either cool or stupid. I don't know. I think like you kind of, I say this all the time. You kind of gotta be stupid to start a company. Like, all the, all the kind of math doesn't math. You're like, hey, hold on, I can make a lot of money going and do, I mean, look, to be honest with Sean, I was at a company called Bird Rides, which was the scooter company. And we can go into why I went there. It's actually not important. I wanted to learn how you built if you had no constraints. Like, if you use China, instead of saying China's the enemy, what if we use China? How fast could we build? And I was blown away by how fast you could build. If you got rid of all your preconceived notions about what you could do. That's why I went to Bird. When I left Bird, I left seven plus figures on the table to, to go start this company. Why?

• 1:26:50Speaker 03

  Probably because I'm stupid, but also because it's not what drove me, right? The money is, is great. I don't come from a wealthy family. I wasn't rich growing up or anything like that. And I just, look, I think if you can,

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  if you can afford to go to dinner and not have to worry about the bill, you're in a pretty good fucking spot in life. That's it. I don't need much more than that. So like, let's go do what you want to do. And I asked myself the question of, if I had Elon Musk's level of wealth, if I had $300 billion, what would I do? Go try to explore the fucking universe. So why don't I just go do that now? That's all this company is.

• 1:27:32Shawn Ryan?

  I think it's more than that to me, but, I mean, because you could have just explored the universe at the, at the JPL lab.

• 1:27:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I wouldn't have got to control where I explored or saw, or actually saw those missions go faster. The thing that I had a real problem with at JPL was simply saying, hold on.

• 1:27:56Speaker 03

  Our missions and spacecraft cost four and a half million dollars.

• 1:28:00Speaker 03

  Europa Clip costs 5.5 billion. It's a lot of zeros in between those two numbers. And you don't see that in what's produced. And I'm not saying what produces a NASA Class A mission isn't a really great mission. Really great people work on it. What it is, though, also is a jobs program. And when I talk about the same reason we're not a government contractor, JPL is, right? That's what they're doing. They're a contracting agency. And you see that in the work ethic there. You see that in the people there. And you see that in how it's constructed. There's people that definitely dream about space there, and there's visionaries at JPL. But there's also people that are clocking in and clocking out. And that kind of culture just doesn't, doesn't attract me. It doesn't interest me. When I, when I want to do something, I want to go all in to the point where it's unhealthy. And if I'm not unhealthy about it, then like,

• 1:28:46Speaker 03

  what's the point? I don't, I don't live for the weekends, right? I don't, I don't actually even live to retire. Like, I live for this. I live for the experience of what I'm going through today. To see, to see if you can make it, to see if you can have a lasting impact on the future.

• 1:28:58Shawn Ryan?

  I love that. I love that. What else excites you in space? Or do you, do you, is there anything else? Are you 100% like, do you dive into anything else?

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  I mean, look, like, like anybody that's around space and you're around this, what else excites me? I think there is a revolutionary going on in rocketry right now as we look at it. And whether it's the RDU that I talked about, whether it is a starship coming online. I think Starship is fucking hard rockets to build, man. And I think you're seeing that. You're seeing that the, you're seeing that move fast culture really get tested right now with, with how Elon is building Starship. And I hope Elon, I hope Elon goes back to dedicating himself 100% to SpaceX because I think he could, he could really make an impact there on Starship. I think it needs, it needs that back in there. And then you have vehicles like the rumored new Armstrong, which will be,

• 1:29:49Speaker 03

  Blue Origins, Starship competitor. I don't know if it's real or not, but I fucking hope it is. It's kind of like, like aliens. I hope that these companies are working on bigger rockets, right? Because it's, it's fucking cool. I want to see what that revolution enables. Now, what it's going to enable is two things in my mind. It's going to enable different business cases. And so you're probably going to have more Starlink competitors come out. I don't, I don't know what else. I don't really care because those are all boring. And I'm sure those people make a lot of money. Again, all my friends work in those industries. And I tell them this, if you're low earth orbiting, like, I don't care. It's boring. I want to see, like, it just is, it just, it just doesn't excite me, right? It doesn't like Starlink, really cool technology. I don't care. That's the honest truth. I don't, it's, I want to see what we do with the science side. Like, if

• 1:30:32Speaker 03

  Starship comes online, we can launch some gigantic fucking ass telescopes. We can get really far. We can launch cheaper interplanetary missions. Can we actually go colonize Mars? Can we get there? Can we become multi-planetary?

• 1:30:45Speaker 03

  I don't know. To be clear, I don't know the answer to any of this. Alls I'm saying is, I really like when people go try. Same thing with Ashford. I'm not going to sit here and say, I'm 100% confident this is going to work and I'm going to pull it off. I actually don't know. I think the magic in this is that you still got enough, you know, you still got enough balls to go for it. Try.

• 1:31:03Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm. Do you think that the, this is what I watch at night. I just fall asleep to space documentaries.

• 1:31:12Speaker 03

  I fall spaced asleep to war documentaries. So like, you know, my wife laughs at me all the time. She's like, dude, you're literally listening to people like die in Vietnam and you just pass out to that? Like, that's how you go to sleep? Like, yeah, it's kind of, you know, like, it's a great story. It's right?

• 1:31:27Shawn Ryan?

  Is the universe expanding?

• 1:31:29Speaker 03

  So when we look at, again, I'm not a physicist or scientist, so I'm probably going to get shown for this. But what I'll say is when we look at data from telescopes and we see light shifts on galaxies, they appear to be moving away from us. And so the logical thing you can draw from that is that the universe, again, it is a, it is a hypothesis based on observation we have in space. So we've seen something that happens. We've seen a redshift out of these galaxies. We think they're moving away from us.

• 1:31:54Shawn Ryan?

  Everything's moving away from.

• 1:31:56Speaker 03

  Everything is moving away. Well, not everything. Andromeda is moving towards us, right? So not everything is moving away from us. Certain things are moving away from our galaxy. And when we look at that, we can make the assumption that the universe is expanding. And we have no fucking idea why, right? We don't know why it's accelerating. So there's two ways you can look at this. You can just say, Oh, probably three, actually. The universe is expanding. Our understanding of physics is fundamentally incorrect. Our understanding of how to take these scientific measurements is incorrect. I think we understand how to take scientific instruments. I think you have to to say, is our basic thesis for physics correct? Or are we missing something? And I think there's a lot of holes in our modern way of physics,

• 1:32:41Speaker 03

  but it does a really good job of explaining all the phenomenon that we witness today and we see here. And it kind of falls apart at the super small and the super large. And and we don't know why. But it's really, really interesting to go talk to some of these people that are going and trying to solve these problems and the math they do and the and the way they look at this. I mean, you know, Kip Thorne's discovery of gravity waves was essentially just math equations. And he said, like, hmm, I see this in mathematics. I should be able to see it. And here's how I think we would be able to see it. And that's pretty fucking cool, man, that we can go from that level of understanding of math and and and make observations that then 20 years later, we can detect this gravity waves, right? And and and see these experimental results.

• 1:33:23Speaker 03

  And so is the universe expanding? We observe it to be expanding. Is it or is it not? We can get super philosophical here on like, what is expanding? What is the universe?

• 1:33:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 1:33:37Speaker 03

  Like, you know, there's all these things.

• 1:33:39Shawn Ryan?

  I love this stuff.

• 1:33:41Speaker 03

  There's all these variables you can have there. And if you start to question the fundamentals of every variable, you can lead to some really interesting theses. And so, like I said, there's a thesis called the variable light theory, that that light is not static, that we don't think the speed of light is is a constant. That obviously goes counteractive to all other physics, right? And probably totally wrong.

• 1:34:03Shawn Ryan?

  I just talked to somebody, I think it was Bhaji Bhad, who is is setting up satellites and wants to beam solar energy back into Earth. He was talking about, I think it was him. He he had he had mentioned that we've recently frozen light.

• 1:34:19Speaker 03

  I don't know how you freeze light, but that's pretty sick.

• 1:34:20Shawn Ryan?

  But they they said that they wasn't, I think it was, uh, I think it was him that was talking about it. They had mentioned that we had we have found a way to freeze light.

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  So this is where the math becomes super important because we say we can't travel faster than light. That's wrong. We can't travel faster light in a vacuum. Travel faster light in different mediums. Right. And so like, there's all these different ways to chalk up what we're talking about and how you take your assumptions and and make them different. And this is where the math and the details, details matter, details matter a lot. And we start to talk about these kind of math equations and the way we look at physics like you gotta dive into detail. So what does freezing light mean? Did we go really cold? Did we use a different medium? Does it mean to just slow down? You know, how do we look at this? Like, people love to put Hollywood on top of these physics discoveries. And the reality is they're not usually that Hollywood. They're actually usually pretty mundane and boring.

• 1:35:13Speaker 03

  And that's why I think going back to my original point is like,

• 1:35:17Speaker 03

  I really think you should do this, Sean. It's just like, when you're reading one of those, just call the fucking author.

• 1:35:21Shawn Ryan?

  We will.

• 1:35:21Speaker 03

  Call the paper and say like, hey, what does this mean? Or I was talking about the, you know, call Kip Thorne. He's at Caltech. Like, he will pick up the phone. Uh, when I was at NASA Goddard, there was a guy named there named John Mathis. And, uh, he discovered the background radiation of the universe. Won a Nobel Prize for it, right? The mission in ninety two, I think it was, that took that famous picture of the background radiation of the universe. I literally just walked up to his office and was like, can I talk with you? And he's like, dude, come in. I'm just working on this. Like, come in. What do you want to talk about? I'm like, these people, we we kind of holding them up as like these fictitious characters that are that are that are different than us. They're all just people. They're all just humans. Yeah, some of them are fucking total oddballs. But like, what they are not is celebrities. And I think that's important.

• 1:36:06Speaker 03

  Because that means they're accessible. And as soon as these things become celebrities, where we're watching documentaries on them, usually those that math has been convoluted so much to to help explain it to us as as laymen that you're actually not getting the true story of what's happening. And in some cases, you'll have the original authors of these papers or these these theories come out and say like, it's actually not what I was saying at all. Like, this doesn't make any sense. It's not what I meant at all by this. I mean, a good one, again, the Psyche asteroid, saying it's worth a hundred quadrillion dollars. Talk to Lindy about it. She's she's the P I for the NASA Psyche mission. She's like, this is not what I meant. I didn't mean like, oh yeah, I was trying to equate for how much is on this. How much material is here and form somebody else could understand.

• 1:36:48Speaker 03

  But that's been taken differently and you know, that's, that's kind of how this works.

• 1:36:53Shawn Ryan?

  So a couple of questions, just from what you were talking about. One, I want to talk about background radiation space. I don't know what that is. But before that, you have mentioned traveling faster than the speed of light in other mediums. What do you mean by that?

• 1:37:05Speaker 03

  Light travels slower in metal.

• 1:37:07Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, so what does that even mean? Because it seems like you put a chunk of metal in front of light and it doesn't go through the other side. It blocks it. So what does that mean that it travels slower through metal?

• 1:37:19Speaker 03

  Any kind of fiber, whether it's, look, there's a whole bunch of ways, I guess, to slow down light. Whether you're talking about fiber optics, it's going to go slower. And this is because the photons are hitting other atoms and being deflected.

• 1:37:31Speaker 03

  Light, what I'm getting at there is when we talk about these equations though, the details matter, right? When we say light travels at a constant speed, we're referring to light in a vacuum. And so all of these ways we describe this science, again, those variables are the important piece of it. And if we forget about those other variables, we lead ourselves to believe falsehoods that are not true.

• 1:37:52Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. Let's talk about background radiation. Is that what you called it?

• 1:37:58Speaker 03

  That's what it's called. I know very little about background radiation, right? So I talked with, so there was a Nobel Prize awarded on this. I think the scientific mission was, was in the early nineties and it was spacecraft that went out and mapped this. As the background radiation of the universe. This was the famous story that was found, maybe it's just famous to, to radio engineers that when I went to school of, it was these guys on a military base and I don't remember exactly what they were doing. They had this antenna, they had this radio telescope they were looking at things with. And they kept seeing noise on the telescope. And they thought it was birds nesting in the telescope. So they kept cleaning it out and cleaning it out and going like, what the fuck? Why is this thing noisy and check everything? And what they realized is their instrument was perfectly fine.

• 1:38:41Speaker 03

  What they were viewing was the background radiation of the universe. And that apparently according to physicists comes from the beginning of the big bang. Like, don't ask me how or why, I actually have no idea. But what John did with this imager was be able to image and categorize it. And so it's, I'm sure you've seen the image before.

• 1:38:58Shawn Ryan?

  Is this the thing that they do?

• 1:39:01Shawn Ryan?

  Hear me out. Is this the thing they're talking about where it looks like, it looks like

• 1:39:07Shawn Ryan?

  a brain, how, how it's all connected? Is that what you're talking about?

• 1:39:11Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. That sounds awesome, but no, it looks like, it looks like almost a map of the world, even though it is the universe. So it's like this oblong kind of ellipse and in it you'll see light and dark spots. There's quieter parts of the universe. There's, there's hotter spots of the universe and I should call them colder and hotter because that's how they're measured, but I don't think we know why or understand why it's not uniform. This is kind of a big discovery, but again, there's so many cool things in science that we just, we discover, we go witness and we actually don't know why. That's what makes this beautiful, right?

• 1:39:42Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm, hmm. Please put a satellite into a black hole. Please put a satellite into a black hole. I want to know what's on the other side.

• 1:39:50Speaker 03

  I mean, if we did, we wouldn't know, right? This, black holes are this. And black holes are such a cool concept and it, it went through this whole thing of like, hey, if you have infinite gravity and you can draw these math equations that show we should have black holes. And then you start to have all these theories, things like Hawking radiation and these discs and it wasn't until recently that we were able to image a black hole. Now, we didn't actually image a black hole because no light can escape a black hole, right? But show the disc and, and show everything going into it. And that was a, a pretty big moment because it, again, it goes through what is probably a hundred years of theory. Going down into one image to say, holy shit, that theory was true. That theory that started out with basic principles of math and physics and a human sitting there thinking outside the box

• 1:40:35Speaker 03

  was able to prove this to be right. It's, it's not very often that happens in, in human history, but it's kind of revolutionary when it does. And there's some lesser famous ones that I actually think are more impressive.

• 1:40:45Shawn Ryan?

  Like what?

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  I mean, look, talk to anybody about Maxwell's equations, these four fundamental equations of electromagnetism that. Our comp, I mean, his paper to do this is like his proof for it's like 300 pages long. It's, this guy was clearly batshit insane. Came up with some of the most important theories for how the modern world operates with, with electronics. And um, I think because he wasn't good at the Hollywood style, because he wasn't good at, at articulating what he was doing. Because his proof is so fucking long that only some loser is gonna sit there and read it.

• 1:41:19Speaker 03

  It makes it so that you don't get the press from it, right? And like, you've probably never heard of Maxwell's equation. In fact, when I say Maxwell's, you probably think coffee, right? This Maxwell House or whatever, right? It, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't resonate with anybody at the same level because there is, there has always been a side of showmanship to science. This is why Einstein is so famous. You know who Einstein is. Probably because you always call somebody you don't like, you're like, oh yeah, you're, you're, you're an Einstein, right? Like, you're stupid. Um, I love how we use his name to be that. The reason you know about Einstein though, I think is because of the nuclear bombs. Right? And I think if it wasn't for that, we may not know him at the same level. There's probably more important physicists at the time, like Bohr with the atom, right?

• 1:41:59Speaker 03

  And, and other things, all these other physicists at the time that are, are really not as well known as Einstein. Because they didn't have, they didn't have the marketing.

• 1:42:08Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. What do you, what do you think about the multiverse theory?

• 1:42:15Speaker 03

  Oh God, I know so little about this that I'm just gonna be to, like, multiverse theory is when you go into multiple dimensions to help describe phenomenon. It, it resonates from something called string theory. I don't know shit about it. And I think that these ideas are what you get when you extrapolate scientific equations. When you say, yes, if this happens, every possible scenario has to be true. Thus meaning we must have multiple universes for all of those scenarios to be true. And

• 1:42:45Speaker 03

  I, i- i- it's in pure conflict with other forms of our, of our theories, right? Like, okay, we, so do we make universes or they're created every instance? Is the universe exponentially expanding? Like, you can kind of take this any direction you want. And to be honest with you, I haven't spent enough time here to have a good idea of like, is this, is this relevant? Is this not? I have no fucking idea. I think it's a cool theory. I think all these theories can be really interesting theories, but.

• 1:43:10Shawn Ryan?

  I love diving into them. I love, it just fascinates me. Then I fall asleep, but.

• 1:43:19Speaker 03

  It's a fun thing to talk about, but I think what's important to understand is almost all these theories are based off a very small amount of scientific observations. And the real way we're going to solve these theories is add more fucking scientific observations. And we've seen the capital cost and the capital allocation for each scientific observation go up by orders of magnitude. Look at the particle accelerators. We have how many particles accelerators in the United States? I mean, there's just, there's tons of, you can make a really small particle accelerator in your office. We made one. I don't recommend it.

• 1:43:47Shawn Ryan?

  You're talking about the stuff like CERN?

• 1:43:49Speaker 03

  That's what I'm saying. As you get to CERN, they start to become, oh, these are now billion dollar projects. And then we start looking at things bigger than CERN and they're trillion dollar projects. And then this law of scale almost applies to everything in the universe. It's something we try to apply to companies as well. I want my company to grow at the same growth rate, right? We want it to be exponential growth rate. But the cost of science has also become exponential. I hope we can change that. I hope we can actually stop that dead in its tracks and bring it back because I think we've seen the lowering of the accessibility to space. We've seen the lowering of how we access space. We've seen the lower thing of everything around the science of space, except for doing the actual science in space. How do we change that fundamental, fundamental theory of it, right? How do we make that cheaper to go send up these, to get more measurements on the universe

• 1:44:32Speaker 03

  expanding on what the hell is dark matter? Is there multiverse? I don't fucking know, but those scientists and engineers can set up instruments to go help us understand it.

• 1:44:43Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Matt, we're wrapping up the interview, so I do have one question. I've been interviewing a lot of innovators like you over the past, over this year. And I just want to know, what, what's your advice to future innovators?

• 1:44:55Speaker 03

  My advice to future innovators? Don't fucking do it. And then the reason I say that is, is actually because if you need to listen to my advice, you already don't believe in yourself. Don't, don't listen to fucking anybody. It's really easy, Sean, to sit here.

• 1:45:17Speaker 03

  And poke holes in everybody else's companies. Like I said, it's human sometimes. It's really, we love to wanna know why people are gonna fail. Oh, Elon's gonna fail cuz he does this. Oh, Jeff's gonna fail cuz he does this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what those guys? You know how much Elon cares about if I think he's gonna fail? Zero. And that's really fucking important, that he doesn't give a shit. It's really easy to be a pessimist. I don't feel statues of pessimists.

• 1:45:42Shawn Ryan?

  Good, good point, good point. If you could see three people on this show, who would they be?

• 1:45:48Speaker 03

  Three people on the show, who would they be?

• 1:45:52Speaker 03

  I think you should get

• 1:45:55Speaker 03

  a real scientist in here to answer all your scientific questions cuz I think they're fucking awesome. So I try to get Kip Thorne, or I try to get Lindy Elkonstantin from Berkeley, who runs the Psyche Mission. I try to get one of them on the show cuz I think they could be really cool. They'd probably sit here and be like, who the fuck was that Mac guy you had? He's an idiot. Here's how these things really mean, right?

• 1:46:15Speaker 03

  No, but I think getting, getting someone really on here that you could dive into with those at the level of detail that isn't an engineer, that's a physicist, I think would be exceptional because you can go forever and talk about some of these rabbit holes, but get a different take on it, right? Get a different approach to how these work and what you think about.

• 1:46:33Speaker 03

  I think you should have, now you're gonna be better at selecting this person than me, but I think getting people that have been in really interesting situations and times of high stress are really cool to interview. So somebody that's been on missions in war, right? Like I said, I love listening to these podcasts of like the old generation going through and fighting in the jungles of Vietnam or being in Iraq and just being able to explain that there's probably 50% of them are probably really good about explaining the emotional connection that people have when those high stress time comes cuz we're all gonna experience high stress. There's a different level that's raised to when your life is on the line and very few people I think experience that during their lifetime and live to see the other side

• 1:47:15Speaker 03

  of it. Like those people can really be exceptional storytellers when it comes through. The last person I think you should have on here is a guy named Victor Vesko.

• 1:47:24Shawn Ryan?

  Who's that?

• 1:47:25Speaker 03

  He's the only triple crown explorer in human history. So he's been to space. He's been to the bottom of this Marianas Trench.

• 1:47:35Speaker 03

  And he's climbed Mount Everest.

• 1:47:36Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 1:47:37Speaker 03

  And he's, I don't know if I can talk about what he's doing next, but it's fucking cool. And like, I just love these guys who.

• 1:47:43Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know him?

• 1:47:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:45Shawn Ryan?

  Can you get back to me?

• 1:47:46Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. Victor's, Victor's amazing.

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  He's one of the few guys that you have in history that like, he has a lot of money. He's very, he's, he could do whatever he wants and he chooses to try to push the envelope and continue. I mean, the way I put it honestly is like, there's very few people that do this, but there's, there's a certain subset of people that are always trying new ways to find new ways to kill themselves. And I love those guys because they're fucking awesome, right? Because they're the ones that are living on the edge and exploring and that's, that's a really cool place to be. And Victor's one of them.

• 1:48:17Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. Well, we'll reach out. And Matt, I just want to say thank you for coming on the show. I love, I love what you're doing. It's fascinating and, and, can't wait to see that thousand kilos of platinum come back.

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  Me as well. Thanks for having me out, man.

• 1:48:31Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. Cheers.

• 1:48:32Speaker 03

  Appreciate it.

• 1:48:46Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching Sean Ryan's show from, if you get anything out of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, please leave us a review on Apple and Spotify podcasts.