Spiritual Minimalism, Purpose, & Living A More Fulfilling Life With Light Watkins

Light Watkins is an expert meditation and spiritual teacher who gave up all his earthly possessions five years ago (save what he could fit into a small backpack) and proceeded to travel the world giving talks on happiness, mindfulness, inspiration, and meditation. Today he shares lessons learned from this experience, imparting wisdom that is equal parts profound and hyper-practical on how to prioritize and cultivate inner happiness, the importance of presence, following your curiosity, the joy of giving what you want to receive, and something he calls the “freedom of choicelessness” that declutters your life decisions. I love Light. He is a wise and gifted teacher. My sense is that this conversation will leave you with more than a few life-altering profundities to ponder and practice. Show notes + MORE Watch on Youtube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: AG1: http://drinkAG1.com/richroll Squarespace: Squarespace.com/RichRoll Indeed: Indeed.com/RICHROLL Plant Power Meal Planner: https://meals.richroll.com Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 0:14Light Watkins?

  You have everything you need to create the life that you ultimately want right now. It's that you need more than what you have. If anything, it's you need less, less distraction, less temptation. You need less stuff to buy in order to be fulfilled or happy. And so if you go inside and you start with cultivating the voice of your inner guidance and you start listening to that voice and you start acting upon that voice, that will take you in the direction of whatever it is that you envision for yourself. You're not expected to know how it happens. You just make yourself as loyal as possible to those little impulses without any expectation or anticipation of a specific result.

• 0:59Light Watkins?

  And eventually, you will live your way into that life of your dreams.

• 1:09Rich Roll?

  It seems like it's fundamental to the human condition to yearn, to seek answers to life's most profound questions. And as human beings, we tend to do this in various ways. Many of us seek these answers through material pursuits. In other words, this never-ending cycle of more, more, and more that tends to lead nowhere. Others seek it through minimalism. In other words, answers through less. And throughout the history of humanity, we have sought it through spirituality, this journey to wholeness through the pursuit of meaning. But my friend, Light Watkins, who's an expert meditation and spiritual teacher, believes

• 1:50Rich Roll?

  that the answers lie in simply being present. In other words, it's not so much about the material or lack thereof at all, and it's much more about how you show up for anything and everything in your life, how you communicate, how you incorporate service into your daily routine, and perhaps most importantly, how you express your love. Five years ago, Light's a guy who gave up all his earthly possessions, save what he could fit in a very small backpack, and then proceeded to travel the world, giving talks on happiness, mindfulness, and inspiration, teaching meditation, as well

• 2:32Rich Roll?

  as writing a book about what this experience has taught him, called, quite cheekily, Travel Light, which is a really great book that extends beyond the traditional narratives that we know around minimalism, and really gets to the heart of what's most important about life and how to practice it. But first, we've got to take care of a little business.

• 2:59Rich Roll?

  Okay. Today, marking his fourth and what I truly think is his best and most soulful appearance on the podcast, Light imparts wisdom that I think is equal parts profound and hyper-practical. We talk about how to prioritize and cultivate inner happiness through presence. We discuss the importance of following your curiosity and exactly, specifically, how to do that. We talk about the power, as well as the joy of cultivating a practice of giving what you want to receive. And we also talk about something he calls the freedom of choicelessness, to declutter your life decisions. I truly love this man. He is a

• 3:42Rich Roll?

  wise and gentle expression of the human form. He's a natural and gifted teacher. I always feel nourished after time spent with him. And my sense is that this conversation will leave you with more than a few life-altering profundities to ponder and practice. And with that, I thank you. I don't take your attention for granted. I appreciate you tuning in today, and please enjoy my conversation with Light Watkins.

• 4:13Rich Roll?

  So this is your fourth, we clarified this is your fourth time on the show.

• 4:17Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Rich Roll?

  And the last time you were here, it had to be

• 4:20Light Watkins?

  Two years ago.

• 4:21Rich Roll?

  Two years ago, right?

• 4:22Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 4:23Rich Roll?

  So we talked about you living in Mexico City. I'm sure a lot more travel now than you were doing two years ago, but still you sort of, the recursive kind of pattern is to hang your backpack there more often than other places.

• 4:38Light Watkins?

  Yeah, well, it's funny. What's interesting is although I have a two bedroom, two bathroom, it's a pretty huge place that I'm staying in because most of the places in the area of town that I'm in, in Mexico City are family places. I still only operate from my backpack. And I've bought stuff for the Airbnb at this point because I've been there for a couple of years. I've gotten some plants. I got a new mattress and, you know,

• 5:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 5:04Light Watkins?

  blah, blah, blah, because I just like to be comfortable. But when I leave, whenever that is, I'm going to leave everything in there. So it's all being gifted to the space.

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 5:12Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 5:14Rich Roll?

  Interesting, man. What is it about Mexico City? Like we were talking about the importance for you of like walking and getting your steps every day and then coming to LA and it all kind of comes to a halt versus like being in a more kind of dynamic urban environment. And I assume that's a big piece of what Mexico City has to offer. Just people are out and it's vibrant.

• 5:39Light Watkins?

  Everyone's out, everyone's walking, lots of sun. I'm a big weather person at this stage of my life, so it's eternal spring weather. It's a thousand feet higher in altitude than Denver. So the climate is always kind of, you know, 75 degrees sunny every day, no matter what day of the year. And unlike LA, it doesn't get cold at night. It's kind of the same as it was during the day. But really, it's the, it's the culture and the fact that people are out walking. So you can easily get 10, 12,000 steps a day without even trying.

• 6:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 6:15Light Watkins?

  Just living your life, running errands, going to the cafe, meeting friends, you know, and all of that.

• 6:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's nice. There was sort of an expat exodus out of the United States down there during the pandemic. Did that rubber band back or did a lot of those people end up staying?

• 6:30Light Watkins?

  Yeah, everyone stays. It's one of those places where you go just for the weekend and you end up staying for three years.

• 6:38Light Watkins?

  Yeah, it's having a moment right now. And, you know, on one hand, you're like, well, you kind of like not seeing a lot of Americans and expats, but on the other hand, it's very conducive to all of that, just the way it's all set up.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 6:54Light Watkins?

  It's a beautiful place.

• 6:55Rich Roll?

  And while you've been down there, on your phone and on your tablet and in your journals, you compiled this book, which has brought us here today to discuss. Travel Light, which I read and I love, I think it's great. And I think this book, what's interesting about it is that on a surface level, it's sort of this book about minimalism and how to kind of live a little bit more lightly on your feet. But really, beneath the surface, minimalism is just a device or like a lens or a vehicle

• 7:32Rich Roll?

  for you to discuss bigger, broader, deeper questions about how to pursue a more purposeful, meaningful life, you know, with more clarity and kind of conviction and peace and presence and mindfulness. So, talk a little bit about how you came up with this idea for this book and then, you know, how do you, and really, the core theme of it is this idea of what minimalism really is by focusing on this idea of spiritual minimalism, as opposed to the minimalism that we think of, which is like cleaning out your closet and your relationship to all of your material possessions.

• 8:16Light Watkins?

  Right. So, as you know, from being on here three other times, mainly I'm talking about meditation, right? My first book was about happiness, but really about cultivating happiness inside, using a practice of stillness. Second book, Bliss More, about how to meditate without really trying. Last book, Inspiration, but still meditation themed. This book, Travel Light, is, as you say, about spiritual minimalism, which is minimalism from the inside out. And what that means is, instead of clearing out your closet and getting rid of the old, you know, blender you haven't used in three years and all of that, and creating space externally, it's about showing people how to cultivate spaciousness internally.

• 9:00Light Watkins?

  And as a byproduct of that, you feel more fulfilled just as a human. And as a byproduct of that, you make better choices for yourself, for your life. Right? So what a lot of people are doing is they're engaged in what I call the acquisitive approach to happiness or fulfillment, which is as soon as I get the promotion, as soon as I make my first million, as soon as I exit from my company, as soon as I get married, as soon as I have a child, they have this idea that I'm gonna be happier or more fulfilled than I am right now. And what spiritual minimalism says is that actually, you're as happy right now as you're going to be when you achieve this thing. In other words, achieving the thing is not gonna make you happier, it's just gonna put

• 9:44Light Watkins?

  you back in the state that you're in right now, but having achieved something. And achievements in that sense is like an amplifier of whatever you're feeling right now. So if you're feeling a sense of misery right now and you achieve something amazing, the wave of joy will pass and you'll be back miserable again. But if you're happy right now, if you feel fulfilled right now, and you cultivate that, then you can achieve things and you'll still be fulfilled. And maybe even it'll inform which goals you go after. Having fulfillment now will make you think, okay, well, this opportunity is not aligned with what I'm feeling inside. So I'm gonna, even though on the surface it looks glittery, it looks amazing, but

• 10:27Light Watkins?

  I'm gonna pass that one and I'm gonna go for this one that doesn't look glittery, but it is aligned and you move in that direction. And usually that's where amazing things start happening in your life.

• 10:38Rich Roll?

  It is true. And despite the fact that, that people like yourself are continually and constantly reminding us of this fact, the, as they say in the parlance of recovery, like the persistence of this delusion is astonishing because you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, you know, when, except you don't understand, like if I just get this one thing or that, you know. Um, like sliver in the brain is very difficult.

• 11:06Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Rich Roll?

  To overcome. And it's only through direct experience with what you just shared that you get a taste of the true reality. And on some level, it's a, it's a conversation about east versus west, sort of, because in the west, everything is about, um, the external, like bringing whatever's that you, whatever thing you don't have that's outside of yourself into your life as a path towards all the things that, you know, we're seeking to, um, engender in ourselves, happiness, fulfillment, purpose, meaning, all of that kind of thing, security, et cetera. Um, and we live in a city here where we all know lots of very wealthy people with fancy

• 11:50Rich Roll?

  jobs and lots of accomplishments who are not happy and not grateful and not nice. And yet, we still hold on to that idea, like, yeah, but it'll be different for me. In the same way, we think, yeah, I know everyone's gonna die, but maybe I'll figure out a way to not have that happen to me.

• 12:09Light Watkins?

  And that's also one of the reasons why we're so shocked when we see celebrities behaving badly. You know, like when Will Smith went up and slapped Chris Rock, everyone's shocked, how could he do that? But you may see that, you may see a homeless person or somebody on the street do the same thing. You wouldn't really think, why are they doing that? It's pretty, you know, clear that they don't have their basic needs met externally and perhaps even internally. But we get shocked when someone has a lot of money and they're behaving like that because there's this still indoctrination where we think to ourselves, well, having money solves all of your problems.

• 12:45Rich Roll?

  Or power, prestige.

• 12:46Light Watkins?

  Yeah, why are you reacting in that way?

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  Adulation, yeah.

• 12:49Light Watkins?

  And Will Smith himself has said that being successful doesn't heal your childhood, childhood trauma, you know? So there's still stuff inside. And that's the thing, you can have the most sparse, beautiful looking zen-like external environment, but on the inside, you're still cluttered, you're holding on to toxic relationships, you're maybe holding on to a soul-sucking, uh, job or a path in your life. And if, if you're experiencing all that clutter, it prohibits you from being present with this beautiful zen space that you happen to be in. And it's kind of like what Robert Persick, the guy who wrote Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, said.

• 13:32Light Watkins?

  The only zen you're gonna find at the top of the mountain is the zen you bring up there with you. You know, so it's like that. Every space you enter, every relationship you enter, any accomplishment you have, you're gonna bring all the happiness that you're gonna get from that with you to the relationship, to the space, to the accomplishment.

• 13:49Rich Roll?

  Right, and then tying that to minimalism and this sort of growing trend around minimalism and how we think about it.

• 13:58Rich Roll?

  What's interesting is that the true kind of way into that is to begin with the outs, like your inside, right? Like if you can get present, if you can resolve those childhood traumas, or you know, find a path to transcend your anxiety, or whatever it is inside of you that's holding you back, or is acting as a barrier between you and purpose and happiness, etc. Then you have a sense of self that completely reframes how you relate to that external world, and those material possessions, etc. Don't carry the same weight or meaning, and become easier to relinquish, or

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  have without them owning you, right? So to clear out your closet without doing the other thing, you're still left with yourself, and maybe that yearning, or a weird kind of emotional relationship to the giving away of the stuff, or the not having it, whereas cleaning the inside first makes that external process almost a natural extension of that journey.

• 15:08Light Watkins?

  Exactly, yeah, you hold on to things a lot less, for sure. And everybody ultimately, no matter what you do in your life, everybody ultimately wants to be fulfilled, right? So What is, how do you get to be fulfilled? Well, that's where people, you know, have different ideas. Some people think it's because it's from accomplishments, or it's from money, or it's from, you know, some other external circumstance. But really, what brings fulfillment is living a purposeful life. Right? Living a, I was listening to this other podcast interview, and this guy was helping people get out of prison. And he said, "There's no drug I've ever taken that gives me the same high

• 15:51Light Watkins?

  as helping these inmates who were innocent get freed from prison." And, you know, if you're being of service, or if you're raising a family, and that's what you've identified with as your purpose, or if you're doing something else that's related to your heart, then you're experiencing some degree of fulfillment that you would not be experiencing otherwise. And really, the only way to know that is to have the experience. So then, how do you lead a purposeful life? Well, a lot of people are confused about, you know, "I don't know what my purpose is. I write about purpose a lot, and I get a lot of replies. I don't, I don't, you know, I feel like I don't live that purposeful life." And so, I say, "You have to follow curiosity."

• 16:35Light Watkins?

  You know, "Don't worry about trying to find your purpose. Just follow curiosity, and your purpose will find you." Well, how do you follow your curiosity? Well, your curiosity is going to have you doing things that are gonna make you look foolish, probably. And it's not gonna be practical, and it's not gonna make a lot of sense to the people around you. So you have to be okay with that. And the only way to be okay with that is to feel so called by your purpose, by your curiosity, that you're willing to do it anyway. And what stands in between you being able to do that, follow the curiosity with the FOMO, right? Fear of other people's opinions. FOMO, fear of other people's opinions in full play, is you have to get rid of the stuff

• 17:17Light Watkins?

  that keeps you shackled to those opinions, which is some degree of... Stress, right? Because stress, when you're tired, stress makes you tired. Stress makes you anxious. Stress makes you future-thinking, or you're focused on a past regret. It's hard to follow your curiosity when you have those things playing out in the back of your awareness.

• 17:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it's sort of like concentric rings. And at the core, although this isn't directly a book about meditation, it is because all of these things that you're referring to and talking about are a product of, or are cultivated and brought into awareness and into action by way of the practice of meditation. So when you talk about curiosity as a path to finding purpose, and kind of the willingness to get uncomfortable, which is one of your kind of like core pillars in the book, to do things that might embarrass you, etc.

• 18:23Rich Roll?

  Before you even get to that, you have to attune yourself to your curiosity. And I think most people, and I know from my own experience, like my brain is just a cacophony of signals and narratives and confusion and fear and resentment. And it's just all firing and going on. It's like, I don't know what my curiosity is. I've got like a symphony of insanity going on right now. So to even know what I'm curious about, or what I might be interested in, is a question that isn't really prioritized in our culture. Like, hey, what are you curious about? Like, it's not something people ask you. It's not something you learn how to cultivate in school.

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  I came to it much later in life. Some people never feel like they have the permission to indulge in that or entertain it. And indulge is the wrong word, because it's part of being human. It's not an indulgent. It's something we should all be doing. But... You have to get quiet with yourself so you can hear yourself. So then you know when those percolating impulses around curiosity are starting to emerge. So what is the process? Like, how would you, if I just said that to you and I was your student, your meditation student, like, walk me through how you would untangle that knot?

• 19:49Rich Roll?

  And get me into a place where I could hear the voice of my own innate curiosity?

• 19:56Light Watkins?

  So that voice is in there. We usually refer to it as the still, small voice. Like, those internal nudgings, those hunches, saying, hey, maybe go left instead of going right on your commute today. Just see what happens. Or, hey, go and compliment that person on their nice shoes. Or, hey, stay at home today and just read a book. You know, these kinds of things. And so that voice is in there. It's a still, small voice. And we had it when we were kids. Everybody has it as a kid. You know, you see kids, they can play with a stick for hours, or they can just go out and imagine things and make believe. And there's something that happens once you start getting schooled is you get indoctrinated

• 20:39Light Watkins?

  to believe what success is supposed to look like, which is being disciplined, being responsible, achieving things, getting married, having a good job, et cetera, et cetera. And then that becomes the primary focus. And then the voice of curiosity, or the still, small voice, gets filed away in the extracurricular activity folder, where if you have enough time, when you're not being responsible and working on your job or your whatever, then you can play around with that on the weekends. And actually, it's the opposite. We should be prioritizing that voice, because that voice is keeping us on track with whatever it is that our purpose or our passion truly is in this lifetime, which no one can tell

• 21:24Light Watkins?

  you what that is. No one can, you can't go to anyone. You can't go to me. You can't go to any psychic or therapist, and they can sit you down and say, "Your purpose is to..." Only you know what that is, but you have to get conversational in the language of that internal voice. Now- Coexisting with that voice, you have the voices of your teachers, your parents, social conditioning, society, the culture, the news, right? All the media you consume. And the only thing, and I know I'm simplifying things a lot, but the only thing that determines how loud a specific voice is, is which one you follow the most.

• 22:09Light Watkins?

  Just like the parable of the, you know, the two wolves and whichever one you feed the most, that's the one that's gonna be the loudest. So if you've listened to the fear voice, or the pain voice, or the trauma voice, and you've acted on that voice more often than you've acted on the still, small voice, or the voice of intuition, that voice is gonna be louder in your head. And so what the meditation does, the stillness practice, is it will turn up the volume a little bit on that still, small voice. Enough for you to hear it, just enough to take a little, I call them a hop of faith. Forget about the leap of faith, it's too scary, I get it. But take a hop of faith. Just take one tiny step in the direction of whatever you're hearing, or whatever you think you're hearing, and then you have to kind of split test. Right. You know?

• 22:53Light Watkins?

  And then over split, over time, from split testing, what you think is your heart voice with all of the other voices, maybe 100 times, you'll start to become more and more familiar with the feeling tone, that expansive feeling tone that you always get when you follow your heart voice. When you take the little hop of faith, you get a feeling tone of expansion as opposed to feeling contracted. You know, like if something's telling you, "Say something negative right now," you know? Curse somebody out. It may very well be justified in your mind, you know, flicking somebody off in traffic, but does it make you feel expansive afterward, is the question? So now you know, okay, that's definitely not my heart voice.

• 23:38Light Watkins?

  But if something says, okay, forgive this person who wronged you, right? No two ways about it, they wronged you, but you're gonna be the bigger person here. No one ever, no one ever steps into the role of being the bigger person and then you like deeply regret that later on. Or going above and beyond, going the extra mile, doing an exceptional job with something. It's hard work and you don't know how it's gonna turn out, but it feels good. Going, doing a workout that, you know, is really taxing on you, but you always feel good after having been pushed in that way. And that's how you know you're listening to that, that heart voice.

• 24:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think there's certain actions that are probably universal to all humans, like, you know, extending grace, forgiveness, et cetera, gratitude. And then there's a subset that's very particular to each individual. And this idea of these baby hops, I like because I think we get in our heads about things like purpose and meaning and all of that. And we're sitting around waiting to be struck by lightning before we move forward. We wanna know exactly what it is and all the steps it's gonna take to get to a certain place. But I think you're absolutely correct and certainly it's been my experience when I

• 24:59Rich Roll?

  made a very conscious decision to start heeding those little, you know, voices that had been lingering for a long time, for no other reason than it just felt like me. And over time, it started to bring more joy into my life. And through a zillion serendipitous situations, has led me to sitting with you today, right? And, and I love in the book, you have your version of that story and how, you know, all these strange things that you could have never predicted kind of came together to, um, in, you know, in a conspiratorial way to, you know, allow you to deep, more deeply invest in that, in that heart song.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  And there's just something really magical, but also undeniably true about it. And in the most simplest, simplistic way, I would say, and you point this out in the book, it's about... Changing your attention away from the head and towards the heart, right? Like, how do you flick off the navigation system in your brain? That's responding to all of these voices and the social conditioning and the baggage, et cetera? And really attune yourself to, you know, what this thing right here is trying to say? That perhaps is a more divine navigation system.

• 26:20Rich Roll?

  But in so many ways, because it defies rationality and logic, is hard for the Western mind to kind of get behind.

• 26:28Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I'll give you an example from my personal life. So I was teaching meditation, this is years ago, I was teaching meditation in New York City. And I'm constantly, at that time, I'm constantly thinking, how can I teach more people how to meditate? So late at night, after one of my trainings, I'm walking back to my apartment. I'm walking through Union Square. And something tells me to go and get a Rubik's Cube from Barnes and Noble, which is at the north end of Union Square, and learn how to solve it. You know, it's the most random thought. And so at that point in my life, I have such a strong relationship with my heart voice, that I try not to question it. So I just went to Barnes and Noble. They were gonna close in like 10 minutes.

• 27:12Light Watkins?

  And I knew where the toy section was on the second floor. So I went there and I found, they had one Rubik's Cube left. So I got the Rubik's Cube. And I paid for it and then got back to my Airbnb that I was staying in. And on the way there, I called up a buddy of mine, who, you know, he's one of my close friends, we talk often. And I told him that I'm gonna learn how to solve the Rubik's Cube. And then he did what society does, which is he starts saying, what are you talking about? You're a grown ass man, you don't have time to play Rubik's Cubes. You have to be figuring out how to market your business and da, da, da, da. And I said, well, you know, I have to do this. It's just, you know, something I feel like I need to do. So I go online and I figure out how to solve a Rubik's Cube, which I never, never even investigated before.

• 27:56Light Watkins?

  Turns out, there's an algorithm to solving a Rubik's Cube. I used to think you needed to be a genius to solve a Rubik's Cube, but you just have to memorize these series of steps. So I started working through the series of steps. Couple of days later, I learned how to solve a Rubik's Cube, which is a pretty incredible thing to do on a New York subway. And sit there and solve a Rubik's Cube, everyone's like gawking at you.

• 28:16Rich Roll?

  Is he gonna do it?

• 28:17Light Watkins?

  Yeah. But anyway, what I learned from that experience... Was the way you solve a Rubik's Cube is very similar to the way meditation works. You solve it in rows. So the bottom row is sort of like the base, you solve that first, then the middle row, then the top row, and then the whole thing solves. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, this is just like how meditation works where you you solve the base of rest first, and then from that, you get digestion back online, you get immunity back online, you get reproduction back online, and then everything comes back into balance. So now I'm just captivated by this comparison that I never would have known otherwise. And I decide, I'm gonna make a video about this, and I'm gonna put it out on this on this new website called YouTube.

• 29:01Light Watkins?

  And, because this is, you know, back when YouTube had first started. So I make this video in my living room in Los Angeles, once I get back from my trip. And it goes viral. And then all these people start reaching out to me to learn how to meditate.

• 29:15Rich Roll?

  And that was at a moment in time where you were kind of at a crossroads with your, with like, the business of your meditation teaching, right?

• 29:24Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, it's like my heart was, was leading me to the solution just by making me curious about these other things. And it came up with a solution that was even more eloquent than what I was thinking before, which is, you know, should I run Google Ads, or, you know, what should I do? And it was like, no, do this beautiful thing that can be unique to you. And that's the power of following that curiosity. But you're right, you have to, you have to be able to hear it first. And I, you know, I've been meditating for many years at that point. And I attribute that for allowing me to be able to hear that voice a little bit clearer.

• 29:59Rich Roll?

  And you, you had kind of practiced this habit of, of investing in your curiosity so much that it has, it's become reflexive, right? It's just like anything else, it's, it's the inner gym, right? Like, this is just one thing. And, and part of like, the whole getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, people think about that in terms of like, fitness or whatever, you gotta suffer, etc. But the discomfort in that context is trusting when there's no reason to trust for any purpose whatsoever, and still Kind of like pulling that thread and following that muse and making a conscious decision that, oh, this is my curiosity. I'm somebody who follows my curiosity. We're

• 30:43Rich Roll?

  going to Barnes and Noble and we're getting this thing, right?

• 30:45Light Watkins?

  And you have to decide, am I going to be more loyal to other people's opinions? Because that's really what's stopping us, is the potential of looking silly, or wasting time, which then leads to people questioning, well, what were you doing with your time? Oh, I was playing with a Rubik's Cube. Oh, that's why you're a failure. That's what plays out in our mind, versus being loyal to our heart and just trusting that whatever we're hearing is going to help us to move towards our path and our purpose. So we start living a more purposeful life.

• 31:23Rich Roll?

  The other wisdom nugget that I get out of what you just shared is this idea that these things are subtle. Setting aside the lightning bolt, they don't come prepackaged with like, here's your path, or this is your next goal. They're like tiny, it's like, yeah, like I'm going to turn left here instead of turning right. Meaningless, tiny little details of life, that I guess on some level are kind of analogous to atomic habits. Like, they're just tiny little things that in and of themselves are seemingly meaningless. But they're like minuscule breadcrumbs, right? And you're on some kind of treasure hunt.

• 32:04Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and that's why I say in the book, one of the principles is that you have to treat life like there are no throwaway moments. So every little thing, go to Barnes and Noble, get a Rubik's Cube. It wasn't easy to learn how to solve a Rubik's Cube. It took a lot of time and practice.

• 32:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Light Watkins?

  Right? So when you are moving towards your path, a lot of people think, oh, that's when my life is going to get easier. Actually, that's when your life becomes a lot more challenging, because you're introducing resistance that on the surface looks unnecessary.

• 32:33Light Watkins?

  But as you continue moving through that process, you're learning things, you're expanding your perceptual acuity in ways that are outfitting you for whatever your path is going to include next. And if you hadn't gone through that experience, then you would not be prepared to do the things that you ultimately envision yourself doing. And I think that's something we underappreciate.

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  Right, and it also allows you to frame everything that happens as an opportunity, rather than, you know, label it as positive or negative, right? And I'm reminded of this story, I think you told this story last time, but it's kind of like your male model origin story, and you're going to Paris and the flight keeps getting canceled, but you're getting these $500 vouchers each time. And those are kind of mundane, annoying moments, but maybe positive because you're actually profiting off of it. But when you finally arrive in Paris and, you know, kind of enter this agency, there's this assemblage of people that happened to be there when you were there that lead you on this whole path that, you know, kind of created a life for you

• 33:40Rich Roll?

  for a certain amount of time, that had you gotten on that original flight and it wasn't overbooked, et cetera, maybe those people wouldn't have been there. It would have been a whole different thing. So there are no mundane moments. There are no real, like, that was, those setbacks in not getting to Paris in the manner in which you would have preferred could be seen as problematic, but actually it was this, you know, amazing opportunity, right? That led you in a way that you couldn't have led yourself.

• 34:09Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and I'll share another one, just because I think it's a good, it's good to reflect also on the opposite. When something seemingly bad happens, right, which everyone on the surface would say, yeah, that's not a great situation, which is, you know, I was teaching yoga back in the day, and I was living in West Hollywood, and my yoga class was at Crunch Gym, which was in Sunset Boulevard, Sunset Plaza. So my commute was literally half a mile down Fountain Avenue, right? And I had everything timed out. I would leave my apartment. It would take me probably five minutes to get to the gym. And except this morning, I go to Fountain and there's all this bumper to bumper traffic.

• 34:52Light Watkins?

  So like any good Los Angeles driver, I zigzag through alleys down to Santa Monica Boulevard to see if I can go that direction. And same thing, it was full of bumper to bumper traffic. Usually worse on Santa Monica. So I'm inching along and I didn't give myself more than about 10 minutes to get to this class and I have this thing about being punctual. So now I'm getting all anxious and trying to breathe through it. And finally, I just surrender to it. And then I get to Fairfax, which is where if there was an obstruction, it would have probably been at, this was the major intersection. So I'm looking for construction. I'm wondering, was the president in town? Is there an accident? Was there some crazy, you know, person in the middle of the street, holding up traffic? And there was nothing. There was nothing. The traffic just cleared up.

• 35:34Light Watkins?

  And then I'm even more upset because now I have nothing to blame it on. And it's just that there was a lot of traffic, which as we know, living in Los Angeles, you can't really blame the traffic because everybody knows there's traffic. And now I'm about 10 minutes late to this class that I'm teaching. And I walk into the class and everyone's in the back of the room and I feel this crunching under my flip flops and I look down and there's like a million shards of glass all over the floor. And I look up and so that particular room has a wall of mirrors in the front. And I would have been sitting right in the middle of that wall. And right in the middle of the wall, there's an empty space where a mirror was supposed to be.

• 36:18Light Watkins?

  Apparently, right at the top of the hour, that mirror, that mirror panel, which is about nine feet tall and about maybe four feet wide, dislodged and came crashing down. So it turns out that phantom traffic jam- Saved your life. That I surrendered to- Yeah. Saved me from having a very unlucky start to my day. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's the opposite side of it too. Just when you, and I talk about this, the freedom of choicelessness. When you don't have an option, you tried everything you could do, you left on time, you hit traffic on one street, okay, let me go to the other street, hit traffic on that street. You're giving a gift of choicelessness, which means that you are being navigated now. And instead of getting all anxious and out of the present moment, just surrender to

• 37:03Light Watkins?

  it, understand that it's, it's sparing you from something that's worse than that traffic.

• 37:09Rich Roll?

  That's so hard.

• 37:10Light Watkins?

  That's minimalism, that's spiritual minimalism though.

• 37:12Rich Roll?

  It's really difficult.

• 37:13Light Watkins?

  We're holding on to, oh, what could, could have, should have, would have been happening right now.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Which is really just future tripping.

• 37:20Light Watkins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:21Rich Roll?

  And predicting something that actually we have no idea whether that's actually the way it's gonna pan out.

• 37:28Light Watkins?

  You may never know.

• 37:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:28Light Watkins?

  I got lucky in that situation because I got to see, you know, pretty obviously what would have happened otherwise. But you may never know.

• 37:35Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And you don't know the timeline either.

• 37:39Light Watkins?

  No.

• 37:40Rich Roll?

  Of how these things assemble to guide you in a certain way. And there really are no, no small moments, no, no, no minor things. Because it is those tiny little nudges one way or the other that, you know, have this butterfly effect.

• 37:55Light Watkins?

  Yeah. But you look at, okay, let's run the opposite experiment. Let's say I was just, it's better to be anxious the whole time. Well, what does anxiety do? It yanks you out of the present moment. It makes you not present. And, you know, a lot of people will say, you know, our greatest asset is time. Right? If I can get more time, buy my time back, whatever, then that's gonna be better than, than not having my time. But I would argue, from a spiritual minimalism perspective, that your greatest asset is actually presence. Because you can have all the time in the world, but if you're never present with that free time, then is it really that valuable?

• 38:31Rich Roll?

  Mm.

• 38:31Light Watkins?

  Right? Versus not having as much time, but being fully present. And then if you're present, it's kind of like one of those magic eye puzzles, you know, where you look at it and it just looks like a bunch of chaos, and you soften your gaze. And then eventually, an image starts to appear from the chaos. Right? Like that, when you're present, and you're not anxious, and you're just kind of relaxed, you get, you start to see and experience opportunities and insights and epiphanies that you would otherwise miss because you're so locked into what's not happening, or something that you're regretting from the past.

• 39:10Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:11Light Watkins?

  And that's the value of present moment awareness. And that can, that can, um... Help you in your relationships, like what relationship does not benefit from both people being more present? Right. Right? And a lot of us are saying, okay, well, as soon as they're present, I'm gonna be present. It's not how it works. You get what you give, and I talk about that, and that's a principle. You give what you want to receive. So if you want more love, you have to be more loving in order to nurture that within the relationship. If you want more presence, you have to be more present.

• 39:42Rich Roll?

  But Light, I want to wait until they give it to me first, and then I'll grant it, right? Like it's conditional.

• 39:48Light Watkins?

  Run that experiment and see how it works out for you.

• 39:50Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 39:50Light Watkins?

  And then come back and talk to me.

• 39:52Rich Roll?

  It is really true. You mentioned earlier this idea of split testing, like split testing your internal voice. So walk me through an example of what that might look like, because I think that's instructive for somebody who's kind of playing around with this notion for maybe the first time.

• 40:12Light Watkins?

  So for people who are familiar with internet marketing, that's what makes a good internet marketer. They split test things. So they run an ad, and they run a different ad, but with a different headline, and they'll see which one performs better. And then they'll change the color on one and keep the color the same on the other, and they'll see which one performs better. And through doing all of those experiments, they'll eventually arrive at the most optimized ad for whatever the purpose is of that ad. And like that, with split testing, we can do that with our internal voices. You have the voice that you think is your heart voice, and you have imitator voices.

• 40:51Light Watkins?

  And some of those imitator voices are really voices of your ego, you know, telling you to follow a certain path, which may seem altruistic, but if you really are honest with yourself, it's really because you think it's gonna make you look better in the eyes of someone else, right? Fine, follow it, follow it, and see what happens. See how it makes you feel. And then go and do the opposite. You know, it's kind of like that Seinfeld episode. Where George Costanza decides, I'm gonna just do the, he says, I'm not having any luck at work, with women, with anything. And Jerry says, well, just start doing the opposite of what you would normally do.

• 41:32Light Watkins?

  If what you're doing now is getting you the worst results, you can't lose anything by doing the opposite. And he starts doing that. And he starts being completely honest with the women that he's dating. He goes to the job interview, you know, which is at the Yankees or something. He says, he starts talking crap about how the Yankees is running, are running their organization. And he gets hired, and he gets these beautiful women, and he starts doing, he starts getting the opposite of what he was getting before. And, you know, that's what's so great about life experience is, whether you're skeptical about these kinds of concepts, or whether you buy into them, your experience is giving you the results, right, that you're getting. And if those results feel fulfilling to you, then great, keep doing more of that.

• 42:14Light Watkins?

  But if they're not, regardless of what you believe or think should be happening, you kind of have to do the opposite in order to, to really understand whether or not what you've been doing is the thing to do. And so that's what split testing basically means, is you can still keep following that voice that you've been following, but try doing the opposite a few times and just see, just see what happens. Don't take my word for it. Just see what happens.

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  In 12-step, they call it contrary action. You know, it's like, hey, smart guy, you think you know it all? Like, your best thinking landed you here? Like, how smart are you? You know, maybe not to keep, I know you want to do that thing, but you know, that thing actually, you know, is why you're here. And like, go take contrary action. Do the thing that feels very uncomfortable and maybe doesn't feel right because you're not used to flexing it in that way. Or you've just dug this neural groove and convinced yourself that you know what's best. And it's only through, you know, that's, I guess, a different way of, of thinking about split testing to try to, you know, determine if maybe all these other people are saying,

• 43:22Rich Roll?

  I shouldn't do that thing that I want to do. Like, what happens if I take their advice or their collective wisdom and act on that? And then just objectively kind of note what transpires as a result.

• 43:33Light Watkins?

  So I had an experience many years ago where I was, I used to drive a Fiat. I'm six foot three, and I used to drive a two-door Fiat.

• 43:42Rich Roll?

  How, I mean, there's got to be a backstory there.

• 43:45Light Watkins?

  I just, you know, I was at a place where I was teaching yoga. I didn't have a whole lot of money. And that was really the only car I could afford at the time. And I would go to the coin operated car wash. And I remember one day washing my car and trying to get the whole thing cleaned before the three minutes was up. And this beautiful matte black Ferrari was in the next stall. And I'm thinking to my, I'm in my head, I'm like, man, this is so emasculating. Here I am, grown ass man with this little Fiat. And this guy, whatever he's doing, has this Ferrari. And what am I doing wrong with my life? Again, I'm teaching people, you know, to find happiness inside, but I'm not perfect. Right. I'm still going through my own struggles. And anyways, we both pull out at the same time to the drying station.

• 44:28Light Watkins?

  And I'm drying my car with my little reusable yellow, you know, towel. And he's got these really beautiful white towels, like something you get at the Four Seasons. And he's drying his Ferrari. This is a big burly guy. And I'm still like in my head around, you know, why do I have a Fiat? He's got a Ferrari. And this is embarrassing and blah, blah, blah. And then I pull out my tire polish and I start spraying my tires. And I look over and he doesn't have any tire polish. And then something says to me, you know, you admire his car so much, go and offer him some tire polish. So I went over there and I said, hey, you have such a beautiful car. And it would be a shame for you to go back on the road without polishing up your tires. And I said, I would love to let you use my tire polish. And he takes it. He graciously received it.

• 45:13Light Watkins?

  He shines up his tires and I go back to my Fiat and I'm still drying it off. And then he does something really interesting. He comes back to the Fiat with his white towels and he starts spraying my tires and shining up my tires. Now initially I was thinking, let me stop him from doing that because I mean, he doesn't have to do that. And but I decided to just receive it in the same way that he received it, you know, with such grace. And of course, we started a conversation and he told me his whole backstory. He's, you know, he was an immigrant and he started off working at a car wash. And then he worked his way up to owning a Ferrari dealership. And then he ended up telling me to come and teach his employees meditation.

• 45:57Light Watkins?

  And it's like those little moments, you know, every amazing experience that we have, if we go back far enough, there was a moment where something told us to... which was that hop of faith, you know, it doesn't have to be a huge thing.

• 46:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:13Light Watkins?

  Just go with what that voice is telling you to do. My voice at that time was saying, "Go and offer him," which was an expansive feeling for me, right? It wasn't like my life purpose to go and get people tire polish, but just in that moment, but then it led to these beautiful other experiences. And that's really what, that's the gateway to what could theoretically be your purpose.

• 46:35Rich Roll?

  And you can't act on that voice, or you can't hear that voice, let alone act on it, unless you are present.

• 46:44Light Watkins?

  But that's how you can turn up the volume on your presence as well, is by taking, acting on it in those little moments. That would otherwise be dismissed, "Oh, I'm not gonna do that, that's crazy." You know, how many times do we say that to ourselves? "That's crazy, I'm not gonna do that."

• 46:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Light Watkins?

  "I'm not gonna compliment them, because they're gonna think I'm weird and blah, blah, blah." You know, you have to say yes to those things if you want to turn up the volume.

• 47:04Rich Roll?

  That's a great story. Some of these words get really conflated with each other, and I think they confuse a lot of people when we start talking about fulfillment and purpose and even curiosity and presence, et cetera. And one of the things you talk about in the book is, you know, by cultivating this curiosity and acting on it, you start to get a clearer kind of picture for, you know, what your purpose might be eventually. But then you weave in this idea of having a value set, or trying to kind of calibrate these decisions that you're making and how you're acting on your heart in conjunction with, you know, your values.

• 47:48Rich Roll?

  So how does that, how can you explain that so it feels like it makes sense and we have some clarity about what all these words actually mean?

• 47:56Light Watkins?

  Okay, so, we, in our society, we oftentimes put a lot of value on having multiple options, when actually, when it comes to your heart voice, you really only have one option. Which means that there's one option that is most aligned with what you feel inside. And everything else may be good, may be great on paper, but it doesn't quite feel aligned. Right? For instance, there was a moment back in 2006 when I got into real estate. We all know what happened in late 2006, 2007. Yeah. I remember sitting at the table with my realtor, who I didn't really trust.

• 48:40Light Watkins?

  He was a nice guy, but I didn't really trust he was giving me the best advice. He was giving me self-serving advice. He made a lot of money off of those transactions. But I remember sitting at the table, everything in my heart was saying, don't, whatever you do, don't sign these papers. Right? But I was thinking, okay, I'm going to be able to flip these properties because everybody and their mother was flipping houses at the time in Los Angeles. I can do a lot of good with this money. So I tried to make it altruistic. But really, if I'm being honest with myself, I was really just being greedy. And I was going against my heart voice in that moment. But on paper, anybody would have looked at that and go, oh, this is a great, great deal.

• 49:20Light Watkins?

  So I went through with it, ended up losing my shirt and my pants and everything else, my socks. And I came very close to filing for bankruptcy over the next few years. And simultaneously, I had this, this desire to go to India with my meditation teacher and learn how to become a meditation teacher. And during that time, between the real estate bubble bursting and going to India, I also got an email from the Department of Justice Victim Notification Unit saying that I was the victim of a Ponzi scheme. So one of the ways I was able to buy the property was because I had been, quote, investing in this foreign currency exchange company.

• 50:03Light Watkins?

  And it looked like it was going really well. This is before Bernie Madoff came to light. So turns out it was a Ponzi scheme. And they were just, they were creating, they were basically manufacturing these gains every week, sending us these PDF statements. And I was thinking, I, you know, I was thinking I was freaking Warren Buffett. Like I was the smartest person on earth. Wow. But turns out it was all just make believe. I lost everything. And um, And so that exacerbated the whole bankruptcy conversation. But during that process, I was getting these credit card offers in the mail and balance transfer offers in the mail because I was in real estate.

• 50:45Light Watkins?

  And that allowed me to go to India because I needed to come up with $14,000 within like a week to be able to pay for this trip. So all that to say, even though on paper it looked like some bad things were happening, I still was able to sort of course correct by following through on this heart voice, which was saying, "Go to India." It didn't say, "This is how you're gonna pay for India." It just says, "Go to India," right? And everything in my heart was like, "Okay, that's where I'm gonna go." I had no money. I was going through these bankruptcy conversations. But at the same time, I was getting these offers in the mail because I hadn't filed bankruptcy yet.

• 51:20Rich Roll?

  Right. And you were playing in kind of a big field where a lot of money was getting exchanged. So it just rang some bell somewhere in some bank saying, "This guy should, you know, let's get this guy a credit card."

• 51:30Light Watkins?

  Yeah. And when I got it, even though I would never do something like that, you know, if I was solving, because it just looks, okay, yeah, it's interest-free for 18 months, but then it's gonna go up to like some crazy loan shark level of interest.

• 51:42Rich Roll?

  You're gonna have to make your whole problem worse.

• 51:43Light Watkins?

  When I got it, I knew that this was the answer. This was what I was supposed to use. And it was a different feeling tone from sitting at the table about the sign the paperwork. This was more expansive because I'm thinking now about the possibility of really truly helping people by learning how to teach meditation. So it wasn't about being a real estate mogul, which I had no passion for, but I was trying to convince myself that I was passionate about it.

• 52:04Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right. I'm trying to kind of marinate in the lived experience of you sitting there about to sign these papers and having this instinct that it wasn't the right thing and trying to differentiate that fear, which was a fear of self-preservation or, you know, a sort of a sense of yourself that was being animated from being out of alignment versus just that discomfort of suddenly stepping into something new that's unfamiliar. Like, it could have been like a little ripple different and it's just like, "Well, I'm afraid because I've never done this before and I'm biting off a lot if I sign this, but I know that this is the right path for me."

• 52:49Rich Roll?

  Like, those are two very different energies that show up in a way that can feel somewhat similar unless you're... Cultivating an adequate amount of self-awareness to differentiate the two.

• 53:02Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and really, it just comes down to, just to give it a definition, aligned or not aligned. Like, I didn't feel aligned at the real estate table, but it did feel aligned to use that money to go to India. And then, I still, either, in both cases, I had no idea how it was gonna turn out, right? But, there was a tangible feeling tone of expansion when I got that offer and I used it to buy my ticket. And then, within a month of coming back from India, I was able to pay off the whole thing and, you know, everything kind of worked out from there.

• 53:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 53:32Light Watkins?

  But, that's why it's called a leap of faith, is because it's not, you're not gonna know how it's gonna turn out. And both feet have to leave the ground and you have to be scared as hell in the process.

• 53:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:41Light Watkins?

  And then the net appears. It's just not gonna appear if you have one toe in, on the ground and, you know, the other foot in the air.

• 53:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's the thing. But, you also were quick to note that, you know, a leap of faith isn't one thing, it's a lifestyle. And, when you see people who make these dramatic leaps of faith, they're generally backed up with all kinds of baby hops behind it that are invisible, that you didn't see because they're not dramatic. So, in the experience of that person who made that leap of faith, there was some kind of, you know, evidentiary backup, you know, based upon all these smaller leaps that took place prior to that.

• 54:19Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and same thing with me. People may get this book and go, "Oh, this guy lives out of a backpack." I didn't just wake up one day and decide, "I'm gonna live in a backpack." It started with me on the road all the time and then experimenting with what I needed, right? So, I would put everything into my carry-on bag and see if I could get through the two-week trip or whatever it was, just from the carry-on bag. And then I did that probably dozens of times. And then I decided, "Okay, I'm gonna experiment with this nomadic minimalism thing and see if I can pull it off." And that's when I got rid of everything and got rid of the apartment and moved into the carry-on bag. And then I downsized from that to a 40-liter backpack and then, a year later, I downsized to a day pack.

• 55:00Light Watkins?

  And so, it was a progress, it was a process that started probably three or four years prior to that. And even, if you wanna really go further back, people say, you know, "When did you become a minimalist?" I became a minimalist when I started taking my meditation practice seriously. Because that's what cultivated the internal spaciousness for me to even entertain the idea of letting go of this conventional life and trying out this thing that I had no idea how it was going to turn out.

• 55:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's interesting. You talk about, you kind of walk through the process of like letting go of all your belongings and giving away things and even your brother had gifted you a Rolex and you like gave it back to him. I was curious about like how he received that, like, did he feel, is he still wearing it? Do you want it back? But also, the story around the $4,000 that was the only money that you had in the bank and you giving it to a buddy of yours and saying, if I don't finish my book by this

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  date, you can cash it and use it for whatever you want.

• 56:11Light Watkins?

  Yeah, so it was my first book that I was writing and I had no idea what I was doing. And I went online to try to find freelancers to help me edit the book. I just had this idea that I wanted to get out into the world. And it took me about three and a half years to get that book out. But three years into it, I was so just sick and tired of being sick and tired of thinking about this book and starting and stopping and starting and stopping. And I realized that I just needed something more, I needed to put some skin in the game, more so than I had already done. So I reached out to my friend and I said, hey, I'm trying to finish writing this book.

• 56:55Light Watkins?

  I put myself on a deadline of, you know, I'm going to get this thing published three months from now. So I need to finish the manuscript by such and such date. And I said, to hold myself accountable, I'm writing you this check for $4,000. And if I do not achieve my milestone of finishing the manuscript by such and such day, you are obligated to take this money and use it for anything that has nothing to do with me. And I had a whole little contract and everything, and I signed it and had him sign it. And then after that, you know, I had all the time in the world to finish this book. Yeah. Amazing how that worked. Freed up all my time. Right.

• 57:39Light Watkins?

  Because there was no way I was gonna, I couldn't afford to lose that money. It was all the money I had at the time. And, and sure enough, I got it through. And that's, that taught me something. It taught me that discipline is not really about having the time or the willpower. It's really about honesty. Are you being honest enough with yourself? Right? For instance, if you're saying to yourself, I'm gonna wake up at six in the morning and then I'm gonna write before I go to work, or I'm gonna write after I go to work, but you've never done that before, you're probably not going to do it on a consistent enough basis to see the thing through to the end. So you may have to move things around and you may have to figure out, how can I integrate the writing? Kind of like what James Clear talks about, habit stacking.

• 58:23Light Watkins?

  How can I do it on top of something else that I'm already doing? And, and that way, you're more, you're gonna be a lot more likely to make that time because you're already doing something else that is aligned with it. Right? For instance, me wanting to work out on a consistent basis. Well, I'm going to this gym that's three miles away, which requires me to dress up, get in the car, blah, blah, blah. So I paid a little more money to go to a gym around the corner that I could walk to. And then I started going every day because I had to put myself more closer in proximity to that. And these are questions we can all ask ourselves. If I'm trying to stop eating sugar, but I have a bunch of sugar in my pantry, a bunch of Oreos and nachos and all kinds of stuff, then I'm probably going to find myself in that pantry. Right.

• 59:08Light Watkins?

  You know, talking myself into why I need to have this Oreo right now. But if I get rid of all of that, I have no choice. And if I put carrots or whatever fruit in my refrigerator, now that's the only option I have. And that's how I'm gonna. Honor my integrity is by putting myself in the best possible position to be loyal to whatever has been happening in the past. So that ended up working out with the book, and that's how I got the Inner Gym published.

• 59:35Rich Roll?

  And that's led to everything that's followed.

• 59:38Light Watkins?

  Yeah, but again, it was hard. It wasn't easy.

• 59:40Rich Roll?

  No, I'm sure that wasn't fun.

• 59:42Light Watkins?

  It was hard, and that's the thing.

• 59:43Rich Roll?

  Were you cursing yourself? "I can't believe I did that. Why did I do..."

• 59:46Light Watkins?

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 59:47Rich Roll?

  "What made me think that was a good idea?"

• 59:48Light Watkins?

  But at the same time, it was effective.

• 59:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it worked.

• 59:52Light Watkins?

  I had to admit that it was effective. And so now, when I'm trying to do stuff, like I wanted to, I've been trying to learn Spanish, right, since I've been living in Mexico. And I bet a friend of mine that, you know, I was gonna be able to be, to be able to speak Tarzan Spanish by the end of, or the beginning of this past year. I bet him $10,000. I had no intention of parting ways with $10,000, but that got me taking this course and, you know, just learning all the basic things that I needed to learn in order to navigate in Spanish enough to be able to have basic interactions with people. And I wouldn't have done that otherwise. I know that about me.

• 1:00:33Rich Roll?

  So did he have to pay you $10,000?

• 1:00:34Light Watkins?

  No, no, no.

• 1:00:35Rich Roll?

  Or you just said, "I'll give you $10,000"?

• 1:00:36Light Watkins?

  I just said, "I'll give you $10,000 right now and do it."

• 1:00:38Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. Yeah, the kind of reversing the incentive structure a little bit to create behavioral change. I think it's Tim Ferriss who has a spin on that. He had some idea about a relationship with a gym where if you don't show up, or you miss your training session, or whatever, for every time you do that, you give them money and a donation is made to an organization that you loathe.

• 1:01:03Light Watkins?

  Tim Ferriss has donated to the MAGA.

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Exactly, in your name, right. Another, I don't know if it's Tim Ferriss, maybe I heard of on his podcast, though, but there's this idea around a decision tree around how to say yes, like when to say yes to things and when to say no, which is kind of the, that's sort of the... Practical crux of what we're talking about, right? Like, how are you allocating your attention? Well, you have to say no to things and you say yes to things. And that idea that he was speaking of has to do with like, the hell yes, right? You know, when it's a hell yes and you know you're gonna do it. But when you're like, yeah, I can kind of rationalize, maybe I, yeah, there's good reasons for me to do it.

• 1:01:48Rich Roll?

  Like, that's when you know it's a no, right? But you have an added kind of ripple on top of this. It's like, the hell yes is easy, right? Like, if it's a hell yes, of course you're gonna do it.

• 1:01:59Light Watkins?

  Right.

• 1:01:59Rich Roll?

  But the real trick is developing the ability to say yes when it's what you call a scary yes.

• 1:02:07Light Watkins?

  Yeah. Yeah, and the scary yes, those are the things that are gonna push you past your comfort zone. And, you know, it could be simple, simple things like taking, uh, going, doing a cold plunge, right? I personally don't love the idea of doing a cold plunge, but, you know, there's all these health benefits around that. And that's just an example of, you know, how we can benefit from doing something that, you know, you don't really want to do. Like, even going to the gym or going for a run. Like, people don't, even David Goggins talks about that. He stares at his shoes for 30 minutes, you know, trying to talk himself out of it. But then eventually, he has to say yes to that because that's what he's committed to doing. And that's what I consider to be a scary yes.

• 1:02:51Light Watkins?

  If you are someone who is codependent in a relationship, the idea of being on your own could qualify as a scary yes. I'm gonna say yes to that. I'm gonna get out of this thing that's not serving me for whatever reason, and I'm gonna be on my own for however long that lasts, right? That's a scary yes. Or, if you're on your own and you've been out doing the single thing, being in a relationship where someone is actually depending on you, someone's holding you accountable to your word, that could be a scary yes. So, it's always different for different people. But that's where you're going to be able to grow and stretch into your potential much more than just, you know, doing the hell yes, which is easy to do because it's obvious,

• 1:03:36Light Watkins?

  versus, um, you know...

• 1:03:40Light Watkins?

  Thinking that you're gonna wake up one day and just rise to this level of potential that you've never quite practiced before.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  Or that you're gonna feel like doing the thing that you never feel like doing. Right? That suddenly you're gonna be struck with a level of motivation to get over the hump, rather than developing the habit of just getting into action irrespective of your mood around it.

• 1:04:03Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and one of my biggest scary yeses personally was seven years ago, two days ago, seven years ago, June 6th of 2016, I hit sin on the first of what became a seven year plus commitment of the daily dose of inspiration email. So that's 2,555 emails.

• 1:04:22Rich Roll?

  Done that every day?

• 1:04:23Light Watkins?

  Every day, without missing a day, you know? And that required not just saying yes to that, but also saying no to a lot of invitations, saying no to sleeping in in the morning, saying no to staying up late at night, you know? And just so many thousands of no's in order to keep honoring that yes. And that's, again, what makes a scary yes scary, is that you have to prioritize it, and you have to say no to a lot of things that look like a lot of fun and, you know, can lead to some pretty cool experiences. But that's what requires to be on your purpose, is you have to, you wanna commit to what your heart is telling you to do, and that's one of the things that makes it really, really scary.

• 1:05:05Light Watkins?

  Because I didn't think I'd be doing it for this long, but, you know, it's still happening, and I'm still having to say yes to it every day.

• 1:05:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:12Light Watkins?

  You know, I've thought countless times about quitting.

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Light Watkins?

  One year's enough.

• 1:05:16Rich Roll?

  And the thing is, if you decided, like, hey, I did enough, nobody's gonna say boo about it, like it's on you.

• 1:05:22Light Watkins?

  But it's about me and me, it's my relationship with me, it's not really about anybody else.

• 1:05:35Rich Roll?

  How long has the backpack thing been going on?

• 1:05:37Light Watkins?

  Five years.

• 1:05:38Rich Roll?

  Five years.

• 1:05:38Light Watkins?

  Five years, yeah. So I've realized, I have this period around my birthday, which is May 30th, where I make these big, I say yes to something that's scary. And so the nomadic thing was one, and the daily dose thing was one. Starting the Shine Movement was one, I did that. The first one of those was like June the 2nd, or something like that. So there's been a few things like that, that have happened around that time. And I see birthdays like that. I'm not really that into birthdays. I just turned 50, in fact, this past May 30th.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  You look amazing for 50. Perfect skin, that's incredible.

• 1:06:14Light Watkins?

  It's all that meditation, man. And even though that's a monumental milestone, which I definitely acknowledge, but it's really more about, okay, what can I do this year? That's gonna, that's gonna commit me even more to my purpose. And so those are the kinds of questions I'm asking.

• 1:06:36Rich Roll?

  So what is that? Like if you, so we're not that far away from May 30?

• 1:06:40Light Watkins?

  Yeah, we just, it hasn't occurred to me yet. And that's the other thing, I'm not trying to come up with the answer. I'm just facilitating the question. The answer will come. And when it comes, it's my job to say yes to it. And without shaming myself and all of that, so. So right now, what I'm getting is to scale back a little bit and to focus your energy on, you know, on things a little bit more, instead of being a little bit spread out.

• 1:07:07Rich Roll?

  I love it. You're gonna scale back. The guy who lives out of a backpack.

• 1:07:11Light Watkins?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  Is thinking he needs to scale back.

• 1:07:14Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:16Rich Roll?

  I love how in the book, you kind of thread, like the whole, the book kind of, you know, periodically throughout the book, you return to the backpack and like, here's what's in it, here's why, here's how I do it. And you've really got this down to a pretty reductionist science. And I can't help but think, while I'm reading this, I'm comparing, you know, my travel habits to yours. And I have this ongoing frustration with myself, because I overpack every time.

• 1:07:49Rich Roll?

  And I generally rationalize it because typically I'll bring my hard case with my podcast gear wherever I go, just in case, like, just in case, you know, I might meet that person and the opportunity will arise to do a podcast. So I bring my whole thing. And sometimes that happens. Not always. It just happened in Australia, so I'm glad that I brought it with me. But that means I'm checking no matter what.

• 1:08:12Light Watkins?

  Right.

• 1:08:12Rich Roll?

  So there's no reason to have the carry-on, the small carry-on. I might as well just bring the bigger suitcase and half-pack it. And then, as I'm half-packing it, I'm like, well, if it rains, or if it's cold, you know, like, and then I end up with all this junk that I'm hauling around all over the place. And then when I get to my location, I end up wearing like, two t-shirts.

• 1:08:33Light Watkins?

  Same thing.

• 1:08:33Rich Roll?

  And like, the one pair of pants, and that's it. And I, I figure out, like, oh, I can wash these here. And I never really unpack my bag. And then I keep doing it, and I do it again, and I do it again.

• 1:08:43Light Watkins?

  Yeah, the big game changer for me was learning, or teaching myself how to hand-wash my clothes.

• 1:08:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you go through that in the book.

• 1:08:50Light Watkins?

  And I go, I teach people how to do it in the book. And then I got rid of like, 70% of my wardrobe, and just had, you know, three pairs of underwear, a few t-shirts, you know, one pair of pants, et cetera, et cetera. And the idea is not, you know, I'm not hand-washing my clothes every night. Because like, in my Airbnb, I have a washer and dryer, so I'm using that.

• 1:09:10Rich Roll?

  And you can kind of source where you're gonna stay based on washer dryer access.

• 1:09:14Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Rich Roll?

  That helps a lot.

• 1:09:15Light Watkins?

  But if it doesn't have that, it's not a deal breaker.

• 1:09:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:09:18Light Watkins?

  It's like, okay, I can hand-wash my clothes. Because I've done it hundreds of times, at this point. And it's actually a lot more efficient than people think. And then ultimately, you turn those kinds of things into a meditation. You turn the packing into a meditation. You turn the hand-washing of clothes into a meditation. Like, we talk about walking in the book, you turn that into a meditation. So everything essentially becomes meditative. And so it's not like a hassle, because it's just an extension of that process as keeping you anchored in the present moment. And again, that's where all the opportunities are being sourced, that are beneficial and, and, and, and relevant to your heart, is from that present moment awareness. But-

• 1:09:58Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, and I'm also not encouraging people to live from a backpack either, right? But, everybody has their version of that. There's something that in you that's been nagging you about, hey, you know, move in this direction, just explore this, be curious about that. And it would require as much faith in yourself as moving into a backpack required for me. It hasn't been easy, right? It's definitely challenges in a lot of ways. But, and I do a podcast from my backpack.

• 1:10:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Light Watkins?

  And I do keynote talks, and I do panel discussions, and I go on dates, and I go hiking, and I go on hot air balloons, and all the things, from whatever I have in my backpack. But I've had to make some very big choices in terms of, okay, you know, I can't have this quality of Mike, I have to have this quality of Mike, if I want to keep doing this lifestyle. And so, yeah, you have to make these decisions. But when things change, you upgrade the decision. And that could all change. I could stop living from the backpack, you know, next week. I don't know. If I get the call to do that, then I'll do that. But, but yeah, we all have that. We all have a version of that. And so, the whole message of the book is, find your version of that, and just start moving in that direction, and just see what happens.

• 1:11:17Light Watkins?

  Don't have any, don't be attached to any outcome, just be in the process of it all, and you may surprise yourself by how amazing things turn out. And when you go back, it's gonna start with, something told me to, dot, dot, dot.

• 1:11:30Rich Roll?

  I think with the backpack thing, and I, in thinking about your relationship to it, it is, it is about non-attachment, in that it's about not attaching to your material belongings, but it's also about not attaching to how long you're gonna do it, or what it means, and not identifying as some kind of martyr in doing it. Like, you're doing it to learn something. At some point, you will have learned everything there is to learn about that, and you will return to some different variation of that, that makes sense for you at that moment.

• 1:12:02Light Watkins?

  One of my pre-sale campaigns for this book is, I'm doing a drawing where I'm giving away the backpack, I'm giving away my meditation shawl, I'm giving away my mala beads, like, basically, all the things I've been carrying with me, I'm gonna give it away to some person who enters the drawing just by purchasing the book, and showing proof of purchase. And so- Maybe after that, something, you know, different will happen.

• 1:12:24Rich Roll?

  Right, right. Well, either you'll get a new backpack and fill it with a different version of the same thing, or it'll be that May 30th kind of question will get answered in a new and different way.

• 1:12:36Light Watkins?

  Yeah, that's right. But, you know, it's all exciting. That's the thing. And the thing that's changed for me is I stopped trying to figure out what this means, what's gonna happen, and just kind of be in the moment. And it's not for the fainted heart to do that, but it's really exciting.

• 1:12:54Rich Roll?

  How does it work with dating? I mean, it's a good icebreaker. It probably can go in two different directions.

• 1:13:03Light Watkins?

  You know, I've said to myself, if I meet someone who I feel a strong connection with, which has happened during these five years, I'll just, I'll spend more time in that area and just make it happen. And so I was dating someone for like a year and a half in Mexico City. And that's one of the reasons why I've been in Mexico City for so long. And before that, I was dating someone in Los Angeles, so I was spending more time in Los Angeles. But, you know, I'd still want to, we talked about this before, I still would like to have a family one day. And I don't plan to, you know, force anybody to have this particular lifestyle. I may end up just having a more conventional lifestyle once that happens. I don't know. But, but I'm open to all possibilities right now.

• 1:13:48Light Watkins?

  And I know that the way to get there faster and more efficiently is just to be in the moment with all of it. So that's my commitment. It's just, okay, what can I do in this moment to stay in the next moment? And as long as I'm answering that question honestly, then everything else is gonna be sorted out. Just like that traffic jam was saving me from having that really bad start to my day.

• 1:14:17Rich Roll?

  Could you ever imagine yourself back in a situation where you're like rebooting The Shine or a scenario in which, you know, you're working with lots of different people and there's a kind of level of complexity and kind of day-to-day interaction that you're currently liberated from?

• 1:14:36Light Watkins?

  Sure, absolutely. You know, for me, it's really just allowing the guidance to occur from within and not judging it so much and just moving in that direction, just see what happens. I don't know, but I'm open to everything at this point. I'm open to everything and I could theoretically go from living in a backpack to living in a mansion or living on a yacht. I don't know, but if it feels right in the moment, I'm gonna go for it.

• 1:15:00Rich Roll?

  Light on a super yacht.

• 1:15:01Light Watkins?

  Yeah, why not? People, people send me, "Oh, Light, look at these tiny houses." It's like, I don't like freaking tiny houses. I don't want to live in some tiny house. You know, I like space. I like beautiful spaces and I just don't need to own it. And that's really the big thing that's changed for me is I can live anywhere, but I don't feel the need to own the things that I have around me, you know?

• 1:15:23Rich Roll?

  Well, I think there's a, there's a cultural movement that is a larger manifestation of what you're experiencing personally. I think there's lots of people with the kind of digital nomad capacity that, you know, is available to many more people now, that there are lots of people who are living a version of what you're talking about. And then at the same time, like kind of technologically and economically, we're moving more towards this model of like not owning things and just having things available to us when we need them, like to rent them or subscriptions, et cetera. You know, everything from Uber to Postmates and all the way down the line to the point where at some point it might seem lunacy for anybody to own a car when you can kind

• 1:16:08Rich Roll?

  of summon one to come and get you and take you wherever you want, whenever you want. Like, it doesn't make sense. So I think we're having a reckoning with ownership in general.

• 1:16:18Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  And you're just kind of deeper down that rabbit hole than most right now, but I, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if 10, 20 years from now, how we think about all of this stuff will be a greater reflection of your experience than, than mine.

• 1:16:32Light Watkins?

  And it's been happening anyway, you know, like... You don't own your body, you're just renting it. From a spiritual perspective.

• 1:16:39Rich Roll?

  What is, I mean, ownership is a contract, it's a piece of paper. Honestly, it's a social understanding. It's really not anything more than that.

• 1:16:48Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and eventually you won't be here anymore and who knows what's gonna happen to yourself after that.

• 1:16:52Rich Roll?

  So, you know, this is. What do we really own?

• 1:16:54Light Watkins?

  You don't really own anything.

• 1:16:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:16:56Light Watkins?

  That's the thing, even your house, your house is not a house. Your house is a storage room with some sentimental items in it. And I know that's a very harsh way to look at it, but we tend to hold on to things, so much so that when we're away from those things, we can't be present where we are because we're too busy thinking about, you know, what we have left behind. And you won't really appreciate what presence can feel like until you kind of shift your perspective around that and understand that I don't really own this. I don't own my children. Like, they're sentient beings, they're complete humans and souls and all that. I'm responsible for raising them to a certain point, and then they go off into the world

• 1:17:39Light Watkins?

  and then you see them on holidays and vacations and they're having their own experiences. You don't really own your car, you know, you may be making a payment on it, but eventually you may go on to a new car and sell the old car and now someone else is driving the old car, right? And so effectively, you're renting the car. It's just whatever your payment structure was, what it was. So, that happens with everything and you may move houses and so you didn't, you know, you have everything for a period of time. So, but wherever you are is where you are and if you're not fully there, then you're definitely missing something about that experience that you would probably be able

• 1:18:19Light Watkins?

  to access otherwise if you weren't so locked in on these things that you've left behind. So, that's what I've noticed, just not having a home. People ask me all the time, "Do you miss having a home?" Well, wherever I am is my home. Right now, my home is with you, you know, and then I'm staying at a friend's place and that's my home and I can be fully present there because all the stuff that I have is with me right there, you know, and this little Airbnb that I'm renting in Mexico City, it's an Airbnb. I don't own it. So I'm not thinking about what's happening back there. And I think it's a really, it's a simple way and it's a really beautiful way to live because it just makes you more available to whatever's happening in the moment.

• 1:18:59Rich Roll?

  What has been a surprising aspect of living out of the backpack? Anything you didn't anticipate?

• 1:19:07Light Watkins?

  You always feel like you have too much stuff. Once you start scaling down, you're like, oh my God, I can't, I'm only wearing one of my shirts.

• 1:19:17Rich Roll?

  Do I really need this pen?

• 1:19:18Light Watkins?

  Yeah, do I really need, exactly.

• 1:19:20Rich Roll?

  Oh my God.

• 1:19:21Light Watkins?

  No, yeah, I mean, again, I started with the carry-on bag and then I realized I had too much stuff. So I went to the medium-sized backpack. I still realized I had too much stuff. Then I'm at the day pack and I still feel like I have too much stuff and I still overpack. A lot of times I feel like I'm overpacking right now because I do leave some things in my Airbnb in the closet, you know, leave like an extra t-shirt or something like that. But just to realize you don't need as much as you think you need. And if you know how to like wash your clothes and if you know how to, you know, I've been very intentional about the things that I pack. So everything kind of matches. I don't have any like, you know, floral patterns. Everything is kind of solid color.

• 1:20:03Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:04Light Watkins?

  So it all kind of goes together.

• 1:20:05Rich Roll?

  You've got your like, this is my sort of uniform.

• 1:20:07Light Watkins?

  My capsule.

• 1:20:08Rich Roll?

  This is what I'm gonna, yeah, the capsule, right. That's what I wear. I have a kind of joke around that. You know, there is a bit of a, it's a fashionable trend on some level, particularly with dudes. I don't see a lot of women talking about this, but like, you know, I, this is what I wear and it removes all this decision fatigue. I don't have to think about what I'm gonna wear because this is what I put on. Like, is that really true? Or I think there's a lot of guys that just are scared about fashion or don't know themselves well enough. And that's a very convenient kind of fashionable thing to say, to hide behind the fact that they're just Insecure about how to dress and so you can say that and you sound like a savvy tech bro. But I'm not sure it's always actually true.

• 1:20:51Rich Roll?

  In your case, it is. This is the capsule that you wear and you're living it.

• 1:20:54Light Watkins?

  I spent a lot of time, Rich, I was at the mall yesterday for like-

• 1:20:57Rich Roll?

  You're a former male model. You know fashion.

• 1:21:00Light Watkins?

  I was at the mall yesterday for like three hours, finding one pair of pants. And I tried on probably 20 pairs of pants because whatever I-

• 1:21:08Rich Roll?

  You only allow yourself one pair in that backpack, right? So it better be right.

• 1:21:12Light Watkins?

  I replace, exactly. And my standard is I have to love this item of clothing. If I don't love it, if I just kind of like it, I don't get it. But if I love it and I love the way it fits and I love the way it feels and I love the way it looks, then I know that it meets the standards and I can get that. And then I'll get rid of something else from the backpack. But then that article of clothing will stay with me for however long it lasts and then I'll replace it again.

• 1:21:39Rich Roll?

  Did you figure it out?

• 1:21:40Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I did it. With the pants I'm wearing now.

• 1:21:42Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah. I was surprised because they're light. I would think you'd prefer a dark color because you don't have to wash it as much. It won't show the stain.

• 1:21:50Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I generally do. I generally do. But these probably will only be with me for maybe, you know, six months or maybe a year because I wear them all the time. So unfortunately, when you wear things all the time, they kind of wear down a lot faster. But, you know, you just recycle things. I give them away and/or donate them and then I'll get another pair and, you know, so it's just... Maybe I'll have a pair of pink pants. I don't know. These are the ones that hit me at the mall and I said, okay.

• 1:22:21Rich Roll?

  That's your, the pants you're wearing right now are the only pair of pants you own.

• 1:22:26Light Watkins?

  So I still have the pair that I replaced with, but when I leave Los Angeles-

• 1:22:30Rich Roll?

  You'll leave those here. Oh, that's sort of like a little, that's like a little cheat.

• 1:22:35Light Watkins?

  There's a little overlap.

• 1:22:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, yeah. You're allowing your, because you're here-

• 1:22:38Light Watkins?

  Because I have to try it. I have to try it. I have to see if it passes the test.

• 1:22:41Rich Roll?

  That's the rationalization.

• 1:22:42Light Watkins?

  So I need to wear it for a few days first. Because you don't know just from trying it on in the dressing room, you know? But if it passes all the tests, the stress test-

• 1:22:50Rich Roll?

  Everybody's going to want to know what brand.

• 1:22:51Light Watkins?

  We, you know, we don't want to get into all that.

• 1:22:53Rich Roll?

  We can't do that, right?

• 1:22:56Light Watkins?

  I'm not being paid by these people to talk about it.

• 1:22:58Rich Roll?

  The other thing that was amazing is no laptop.

• 1:23:00Light Watkins?

  No laptop, no.

• 1:23:01Rich Roll?

  So this book you wrote on your phone and on probably a tablet like this with a little external keyboard to it.

• 1:23:09Light Watkins?

  Exactly, yeah. I got rid of the laptop in 2019. And again, it's a big decision, hop of faith.

• 1:23:15Rich Roll?

  Four years, no laptop.

• 1:23:16Light Watkins?

  Am I gonna be able to do it? And you, surprising, yeah. I actually considered just writing it on my phone just for the story, but I was like, I don't, I'm not gonna be that crazy about it.

• 1:23:25Rich Roll?

  And doing the podcast where you have to kind of deal with larger files and stuff like that, you were still able to do it on a tablet.

• 1:23:31Light Watkins?

  Yep, yep. All of my podcasts has been done on a tablet. So again, it's just, you know, you have to be creative, obviously, and you have to work out solutions that you probably wouldn't even think about if you weren't doing all of that. But it's surprising how much you can get done with less. And, um, and again, it's just, I just feel, I resonate with that challenge. So that's why I did it. I'm not saying anybody else should do it like that, but, um, but at the same time, you, I'm encouraging people not to use a lack of something as a reason not to do something. There's always a solution if you're looking for it. And, and if anything, that's the overarching message is to find a solution with whatever resources you have. And, and then eventually you can pop, you

• 1:24:15Light Watkins?

  can, you know, expand upon that and end up in a studio. Like you were in that, you started off in that warehouse in Hawaii, and now here we are in this beautiful studio, you know, in Los Angeles. And, um, maybe you didn't envision the road from there to here.

• 1:24:32Rich Roll?

  No, but it, it definitely was a conscious decision to indulge my curiosity.

• 1:24:39Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Rich Roll?

  And that was a curiosity that had been percolating for a long time until I finally took some action on it.

• 1:24:45Light Watkins?

  And there was that echo in the warehouse.

• 1:24:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was terrible.

• 1:24:48Light Watkins?

  It was terrible.

• 1:24:49Rich Roll?

  It didn't matter.

• 1:24:49Light Watkins?

  But you had to know.

• 1:24:51Rich Roll?

  I didn't care, cause, yeah, so I just did it for the fun of doing it, to have the experience of what it would be like to try that.

• 1:24:56Light Watkins?

  The curiosity.

• 1:24:57Rich Roll?

  My assumption was that it would be terrible and I'd never do another one again. And I thought that was fun. And I never thought twice about whether it was good or not. It was like, oh, that was cool. Maybe we'll, let's do that again tomorrow. Let's see what happens.

• 1:25:11Light Watkins?

  Yeah, same with me. I started my podcast in 2020. The sound quality was so horrible that I almost considered not releasing it because it just wasn't perfect. And now I'm nearly 200 episodes in and it's laughable to think that I almost didn't release it because of the sound quality. That's just, it is what it is. That's how I learned how to have better sound, how to get a better mic, and how to do all the things better.

• 1:25:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have to allow yourself that leniency, right? And I like how in the book you talk about the podcast and what you've learned over the course of having 200 or so conversations and how you, kind of much like myself, I mean, people ask me all the time, like, what's your podcast about? And it's hard because I cast a wide net and talk to lots of different kinds of people. But there is an overarching theme which orients around transformation, like, how do people change? Or how do they go from where they were to where they are? What was that process like? And I spend a lot of time thinking about that and what I can extract from all of those conversations

• 1:26:16Rich Roll?

  and people that I've talked to that would be helpful to other people. But you kind of did this very thing and came up with a couple wisdom pearls. So talk a little bit about that.

• 1:26:28Light Watkins?

  So in that part of the book, I'm talking about the, I call it the Rosa Parks moment. So for those of you who don't know, Rosa Parks was known as the, quote, "mother of the civil rights movement." She was the one who stayed on the breast seat and got arrested. And then that started the Montgomery, Alabama bus boycott, which essentially kicked off the modern day civil rights movement. And people imagine Rosa Parks as this kind of like elderly person, you know, who was too tired to stand up, but...

• 1:27:03Light Watkins?

  Actually, Rosa Parks was only 42 years old. So she was eight years younger than me at that moment in time. And she said, "It wasn't that I was tired, too tired to stand up." She goes, "I was tired of sitting down. I was tired of giving in. I was tired of adhering to these laws that didn't make any sense." This whole thing about colored writers had to ride in the back of the bus so that white writers could ride in the front of the bus. And that's why she stayed in her seat. And, you know, what's interesting about her story, Rosa Parks was a seamstress. She was coming home from work, working as a seamstress all day long. Now, nobody would look at someone who's a seamstress and say, "That person's living their life purpose." You know, that's their calling in life.

• 1:27:48Light Watkins?

  Because we tend to associate occupation with calling. And, "Oh, I should be an NBA player. I should be a movie star. I should be a singer. I should be a CEO or a tech founder," whatever. And the whole point of that story is to say that it's not about what you do that determines whether or not you're on your purpose. It's about how you are, how you're showing up to those moments. And so, your Rosa Parks moment could be the moment you went, you know, you said enough is enough with alcohol. Or someone else's Rosa Parks moment could be saying enough is enough in this toxic relationship. "I'm gonna do something different. I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm gonna take this hop of faith."

• 1:28:31Light Watkins?

  And it's scary, and, you know, she didn't know what the hell was gonna happen to her when she stayed in that seat. She could've been lynched. Anything could've happened, right? But it just so happened to kick off this movement that made this 26-year-old preacher, Martin Luther King Jr., this international, you know, celebrity and giving one of the most popular speeches in American history, "I Have a Dream." And so, on the podcast, you know, my podcast is about people who found their purpose and people who have created platforms to help the world become a better place. You've been a guest on the podcast. And so, I take people through, basically, a retrospective of their life, and everyone, without exception, gets to their Rosa Parks moment. And that's usually what everybody wants to hear about in podcast conversations, you know?

• 1:29:15Light Watkins?

  The whole thing is just to build up to that moment because that's what's most interesting about your journey. So if you're in misery right now and you're thinking of making a change, that change becomes your Rosa Parks moment. But the misery that you're experiencing prior to that... When people do interviews with you later on, that's what they're gonna wanna hear about. So I tell people, you know, pay attention. If you're going through misery right now, pay attention to everything. Write it down if you can. Try to remember as many details as possible because that's gonna become the good part of your story.

• 1:29:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:29:46Light Watkins?

  Later on. Once you follow your heart.

• 1:29:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that, that, um, another way of looking at it is, instead of couching it as misery, you're out of alignment.

• 1:29:58Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:59Rich Roll?

  Right? And, and the universe is kinda knocking, and they're saying, "Hey buddy, how's it going over there? Feel good? You feel, you sure you feel good? Like, you think this is, okay, cool. Check in with you later." And the longer you kind of stay out of alignment, or refuse to kinda heed that, that, that heart voice, that thing that's trying to bring you back into alignment, the louder those knocks occur, the more suffering results, the more chaos you kind of reap in your life, until you reach an inflection point. You know, in my case, like, I've had a couple of them, you know, getting sober was certainly one, and they're a function of being in extreme

• 1:30:39Rich Roll?

  pain, and that pain being a reflection of the extent of, of the disalignment, right? And I wonder, has anybody asked Rosa Parks, had, had, had anybody asked her, like, right before she got on the bus, did she know she was gonna do that, or would she have just said, I, no, she had no idea, it just happened in the moment?

• 1:31:00Light Watkins?

  It just happened in the moment.

• 1:31:01Rich Roll?

  Right, so, but, I'm sure there are, like, baby hop, you know, little things that were building to her taking that action, where it just became the final straw.

• 1:31:12Light Watkins?

  Yeah, she had just, she had the news about Emmett Till, the little 14-year-old boy, black boy from Chicago, who had gotten lynched by three white men. That had just been in the media, and so she saw that.

• 1:31:23Rich Roll?

  The open casket funeral.

• 1:31:24Light Watkins?

  Yeah, the open casket funeral, and she saw that, and she was just like, "I can't, I can't participate in this anymore."

• 1:31:29Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 1:31:29Light Watkins?

  Yeah. But also, it's not considered a positive thing, right?

• 1:31:33Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:31:33Light Watkins?

  But if it's something that's feeling, if it's resonating with your heart, it's, again, it's not gonna make you more comfortable, it's gonna probably require a degree of boldness to be able to stand up in there.

• 1:31:43Rich Roll?

  Right, but the, the...

• 1:31:47Rich Roll?

  The pain of staying in that place is outweighed by the fear of taking that bold action.

• 1:31:52Light Watkins?

  Right.

• 1:31:53Rich Roll?

  Or stepping into that unknown, or taking that leap of faith.

• 1:31:56Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and it needs to be, like you said, it needs to be a lifestyle. It can't be something that you're just doing every now and again, because it's gonna be too scary to just wait until the big leap of faith. So you have to start cultivating your ability to do that with the small things. And that's why I'm saying, whatever the heart voice is saying to you, if it's just take the stairs, you know, chill out, read a book, text your friend, "Hey, I miss you," or whatever the little thing is, start getting into the habit of acting on those little things. And then, when your Rosa Parks moment comes, you'll be much better prepared to stand up and face the pushback that you're inevitably gonna have to face from society

• 1:32:40Light Watkins?

  or from whoever you're standing up against.

• 1:32:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and what I gather from the way you talk and write about it is, is in doing that, you can avoid or sidestep some of that pain. Like, I made these changes because I was in extreme pain. It's probably familiar for a lot of people. But if you're heeding that voice earlier on that says you're out of alignment and you are exercising those baby hops and kind of practicing being out of your comfort zone, then those larger inflection points are more a function of curiosity than they are of being in pain.

• 1:33:23Light Watkins?

  So it's a difference in-

• 1:33:24Rich Roll?

  And that's a choice that you can make, or a setup that you can practice.

• 1:33:28Light Watkins?

  Right. It's a difference in drama and adventure. There's no neutral path. Either you're setting yourself up for some life drama, which is where you're resisting, resisting, resisting.

• 1:33:39Light Watkins?

  Those hops, or you can get ahead of it.

• 1:33:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:42Light Watkins?

  It's uncertain, so that's what creates the adventure of it. But you're in, you're ahead of it. So it's like you're in control of.

• 1:33:48Rich Roll?

  Instead of waiting for your whole life to like implode.

• 1:33:50Light Watkins?

  Right.

• 1:33:51Rich Roll?

  Before you paid, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:52Light Watkins?

  Exactly, losing all your friends and losing all your family and all that. That's one way to do it.

• 1:33:57Rich Roll?

  That's an adventure too.

• 1:33:58Light Watkins?

  It's an adventure too, the different qualities.

• 1:34:00Rich Roll?

  And then it makes for, you know, good podcasting later, right?

• 1:34:04Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah, we love a good comeback.

• 1:34:05Rich Roll?

  Some people don't come back though, that kind of stuff.

• 1:34:08Light Watkins?

  Well, maybe they come back in the next lifetime.

• 1:34:10Rich Roll?

  That's true. Um, I didn't know, you told a story in the book about, um, your friend Will, the.

• 1:34:17Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:18Rich Roll?

  The teacher and, you know, close friend of yours. And I was sad to hear what happened.

• 1:34:22Light Watkins?

  I don't know. When you, you went to his apartment to, when you met Tom Knowles that.

• 1:34:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but there were a bunch of people there. I only knew, oh, that was Will's apartment.

• 1:34:30Light Watkins?

  That was Will's apartment.

• 1:34:31Rich Roll?

  The one in West Hollywood.

• 1:34:31Light Watkins?

  Laurel Avenue, yeah.

• 1:34:32Rich Roll?

  I wasn't his apartment then, yeah.

• 1:34:34Light Watkins?

  That was his apartment.

• 1:34:34Rich Roll?

  I didn't, I didn't know that.

• 1:34:35Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Rich Roll?

  Um, and I only knew a few people that were there.

• 1:34:40Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:41Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's wild.

• 1:34:42Light Watkins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So he got Dengue fever.

• 1:34:45Light Watkins?

  He got Dengue fever, yeah. And he had an adverse reaction to it.

• 1:34:49Rich Roll?

  That caused him to.

• 1:34:50Light Watkins?

  To go into psychotic episodes.

• 1:34:51Rich Roll?

  Have a lot of mental distress.

• 1:34:53Light Watkins?

  And what's interesting about that is that he was one of the most grateful people and most optimistic people that I knew prior to that experience. So again, it's one of those things about life, you just never know where, which way things are going in. And, and you know, he was living in Bali at the time. This is my friend who introduced me to my meditation teacher. And I have to give him credit for really me being here, having the conversation with you. Because if it wasn't for my interaction with him, I don't know where I'd be. But that he played a pivotal role in, um, introducing me to everything that I'm doing now and supporting me along that process. So, yeah, he ended up, uh. Taking his life as a result of the psychosis that he was experiencing and the depression

• 1:35:38Light Watkins?

  that he was experiencing after taking the medication for the dengue fever that he contracted while living in Bali.

• 1:35:45Rich Roll?

  That is terrifying.

• 1:35:46Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  So was it the medication or was it the?

• 1:35:50Light Watkins?

  We don't know because they didn't do an, his family elected not to do an autopsy. So no one really knows. It's all just speculation and theory at this point.

• 1:35:57Rich Roll?

  I have a friend who contracted dengue fever in Bali, I don't know, two years ago or something like that. And it was the, the kind of recovery from that was significant, but he luckily didn't have any of that kind of symptomology. That's really scary.

• 1:36:15Light Watkins?

  Yeah. And, you know, I think the point of that story, or that part of the story, was just that, you know, it's all not, it's not all roses and, you know, rainbows.

• 1:36:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:25Light Watkins?

  When you're, when you're on your path and when people are there to support you for a reason, a season or a lifetime. And, um, and secondly, you know, that's caused me to start having my experiences, not just for me and me being on my purpose, but knowing that, you know, someone else who wasn't able to make it, you know, I'm, I'm now thinking about him when I go working out and I go, you know, doing the things that I do to kind of move this, this purpose forward. And it's like I'm, I'm, I'm living for two people, you know, and, and that gives even more, more weight to the things that I'm doing and why I do them. And he's one of the ones that inspired me to actually become nomadic as well. He had gone nomadic a year before me.

• 1:37:09Rich Roll?

  Wow. If you have to articulate that purpose, how do you explain it?

• 1:37:16Light Watkins?

  I would say, just to keep it really, really simple, leave the world more inspired. So leave situations more inspired. So.

• 1:37:24Rich Roll?

  Even your purpose is minimal in its words.

• 1:37:28Light Watkins?

  Yeah. But you know, I say your purpose is your best editor too. So if you're clear about that, and everybody's not clear about it, but if you follow your curiosity long enough, your purpose will find you, and then it will start to become clearer and clearer that, oh, when I behave in these ways, when I say yes to these types of opportunities, I feel that sense of expansion, so that must be, you know, my purpose. It feels aligned. So now you have your greatest editor in life, because that is, that is the measuring stick by which you decide, okay, this is for me, this is not for me. This relationship is for me, this one is not for me, because it aligns with my purpose. It allows me to be more of who that person is.

• 1:38:14Rich Roll?

  But it's a bit of a chicken and an egg, though, right? I mean, you can't, if you know your purpose, then you can run that test.

• 1:38:22Light Watkins?

  Yeah, so you have to follow your curiosity first.

• 1:38:23Rich Roll?

  But in order to find your, like, you kind of have to be doing that already in order to...

• 1:38:27Light Watkins?

  Yes, you have to split test it first. But look, it may take you five years to split test it. Guess what? Five years is gonna go by anyway. So you may as well be intentional about sourcing that, because once you do that, you experience a level of freedom that you wouldn't have otherwise.

• 1:38:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:42Light Watkins?

  When you think about a difficult day, a difficult day is difficult because it's hard to make decisions, right? It's not because something, quotes, "bad" happened to you. It's like, you don't know which way you're gonna go. That's what makes life difficult. And you can be in the same circumstance, and it's really clear, and it's very easy to say, "This is the decision for me." There's freedom to that, because you're being emancipated from your fears that are otherwise paralyzing you by analysis.

• 1:39:10Rich Roll?

  I'd be careful to be too reductionist about it, or binary about it. Like, the scenarios I envision, like, you have, you have the hell yes, those are easy. On some level, even the scary yeses are easy, because you know, deep down, this is what you should do, even though you're intimidated to do it. Where it gets tricky, and murky, and difficult, is when you have important values that are in conflict with each other. Like, you're facing a decision, and this thing is important to you, but also this thing is important to you, and they're both, like, pretty core. But whatever decision you make is gonna either prioritize one over the other, or put them in conflict with each other. And that's where I think a lot of myself, like, that's

• 1:39:53Rich Roll?

  where I run into a lot of issues. And then... I don't know if you can split, you can split test it, but maybe it's a really big decision. Like, is this something you're gonna run a test on?

• 1:40:04Light Watkins?

  It's like, you know, your example, I remember from our interview, when I interviewed you, and you were, your whole life was crashing financially. And you were thinking of going back to practicing law. And Julie was saying, you know, you can't go backwards, you have to go forward. And you didn't know what that looked like, right? So those are two very, those are hard choices to make. You know, do I, do I go back to, I know what I know is a sure thing? I can definitely make, you know, X amount of dollars doing this. Sure, it's not my passion or anything like that, but I'm good at it, and I know I can do it. And I have a family, and I have, you know, things that I need to pay for. And it's the responsible thing to do.

• 1:40:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:47Light Watkins?

  Versus, do I take this leap of faith? And, you know, you're right, those are not easy decisions to make. And at the same time, there is, you know, a direction that may feel, again, more aligned with your vision for yourself. And so what I'm suggesting through this work is, while those decisions are both, you know, they seem very, well, the going back to, going backwards seems like the most practical, most responsible choice. We want to, and following this other path that's unproven seems like the irresponsible

• 1:41:28Light Watkins?

  choice on the surface, that we want to give more weight to the thing that feels aligned without really thinking of it in terms of practical versus, you know, irresponsible. And I know that's a hard thing to do in the moment, but that's why it requires practice. It requires practice, because you don't want to wait until you're in that position. Because you are going to default to doing the practical thing 99 times out of 100. In your case, you had someone, you had an angel there, you know, who's backing up your heart voice, saying, no, you can't go backwards. And you got lucky in that situation, right?

• 1:42:10Rich Roll?

  100%.

• 1:42:11Light Watkins?

  My argument is that you probably... There were probably some other choices you could have made prior to that that would have even made it more convincing to move in the direction of whatever forwards was for you in your life.

• 1:42:22Rich Roll?

  I think it's a little of both. I mean, I was making smaller versions of those decisions. And that had got me into that situation to begin with. I wouldn't have been there had I not already been, you know, kind of chopping it up along the way. But to your point, yeah, it was both because I was in fear and in lack and in doubt. And it would have been easy to pivot back and it required a lot of courage that I wasn't sure I had the capacity for to keep going forward. But I did have the support. And short of that, I don't know that I would have made that decision. In fact, I'm sure I wouldn't have.

• 1:43:01Rich Roll?

  But it's that idea of doing the small little sets of pushups every day. So that when you get to that big decision, there's a level of self-understanding and courage or sort of conviction because you have split tested it and you kind of know that there's value in trusting your intuition at that point.

• 1:43:25Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and from a spiritual perspective, you know, the idea of something that is predictable is actually the riskiest direction to go in. And the unknown that feels aligned is actually the safest direction to go in. That's just the spiritual perspective on that. So if you go to some guru somewhere and you're like, should I take the job that I'm good at or should I do the thing that I really want to do? They're always going to tell you to do the thing that you want to do. And it's not to make more money. It's not to be successful. It's not to be, you know, receive rewards.

• 1:43:57Rich Roll?

  Create that alignment.

• 1:43:58Light Watkins?

  It's to do what feels aligned because you're there to serve in some way. It always comes back to service. And when you think of it in those terms, that's another way to sort of figure out, can I serve better in this capacity? Or can I serve better in that capacity? And whichever one is the one that's most aligned with the service goal, that's going to be the one you get the most support from, you know, the quotes, the universe, if you want to call it. Where you get those traffic jams holding you up so that you're safe. And you get those, you know, inclinations to go get a Rubik's Cube. And you get the nudge to go and offer the person tire changer, you know, tire polish. And it's all in service to teaching more people to meditate. But it's not going to say that.

• 1:44:43Light Watkins?

  There's no billboard saying, this is going to help you teach more people to meditate. It's just go through with this and it's going to create this really amazing experience that you're going to share on a podcast one day.

• 1:44:52Rich Roll?

  And if you're trying to answer those questions for yourself, or you want to go on your own kind of adventure in experimenting with this, the other thing I think you would probably recommend is that you go out for a walk, that you go flanouring, right?

• 1:45:09Light Watkins?

  Had you heard of that term before?

• 1:45:11Rich Roll?

  I'd never, no, I had never heard of it. You're getting fancy. But I love this concept.

• 1:45:15Light Watkins?

  Yeah, flanouring is an 18th century French term for aimless walking. Now, walking is having a moment right now as well. A lot of people are walking first thing in the morning. There's this whole idea of 10,000 steps. And what I've been doing intentionally, especially since I got a smartwatch a few years ago, is I've been tracking my steps. And then, you know, it becomes very addictive to hit a certain number. But in the process, the whole thing with spiritual minimalism is doing more with less. So a lot of people say, you know, I don't have time to meditate. I don't have time to go out and see nature, be in nature. I don't have time to get into the sun. I don't have time to do X, Y, and Z, move my body, go exercise.

• 1:45:58Light Watkins?

  Well, with walking, you can do all of that. You can go out of your house for a walk with maybe no object, with no destination in mind. And then you're practicing in real time, split testing the heart voice. While you're having this sort of meditative experience. So you're kind of going within, you're making choices from the inside out. And your heart is saying, go in this direction. And again, there's no throwaway moments. So you're treating everything as if this is, this is as special as some profound conversation with your mentor, with Elon Musk, or whoever you admire, Barack Obama. And so go to the left, you go to the left and just see what happens. And maybe nothing happens, that's obvious.

• 1:46:39Light Watkins?

  And then, you know, go in the shop and get a iced coffee. Maybe you don't even drink iced coffee. So on the aimless walk, because you don't have a specific destination in mind, you're getting a chance to do the split testing, you're getting a chance to exercise, you're getting a chance to do a moving meditation, you're giving yourself a chance to get some sun exposure, you're giving yourself a chance to exercise. You're doing all those things and and you're moving closer to your path and your purpose. And you're setting yourself up for some potentially really cool serendipitous moments. So that's why I'm a big advocate of walking. And then there's all kinds of other, you know, health effects, digestion,

• 1:47:22Light Watkins?

  you know, immunity and things like that get stronger, so.

• 1:47:25Rich Roll?

  Right, but beyond that, like, setting that aside, just this notion of Lenoring, like, walking for the sole purpose of walking and wandering without, you know, a directed intention to it.

• 1:47:39Light Watkins?

  And ideally by yourself.

• 1:47:40Rich Roll?

  Isn't meditation, but it is an active form of engaging with your internal voice.

• 1:47:45Light Watkins?

  And your external environment. But, you know, not walking under the influence of anything, ideally, because that makes you less present. And not, uh, not walking with someone else. Obviously in a safe environment, right? But, yeah, so that you're just absolutely present to whatever you're experiencing. And so that is a way that anyone can do to check all of those boxes. And so that's one thing. I talk about walking, I talk about abstaining from alcohol for three months, even if you're just a casual drinker. And it's not because I'm anti-alcohol, it's because I'm pro-awareness. So if you want to strengthen that connection with your heart voice, but you're drinking a glass of wine two or three times a week,

• 1:48:27Light Watkins?

  that glass of wine, while you can easily justify it, for whatever reason, it's diminishing your connection with your heart voice. And if there's a voice saying, "Well, it's just three glasses of wine, you don't know what you're talking about", that's not your heart voice. Because your heart voice would never tell you to do something that diminishes the connection to the heart voice. So now you know for certain that the dominant voice in your head is not your heart voice, so you need to start split testing to get back to that heart voice. And that's why I recommend abstaining for, you know, you can do a month, but doing three months, you really know, okay, there's not a really big addiction situation here. And I haven't been drinking, I haven't been a drinker for...

• 1:49:12Light Watkins?

  Twenty-five years or so. And it's not that I'm completely sober. Every now and again, I'll maybe have a celebratory whatever. But it's not something that I do even on a mildly consistent basis. And I just feel like I'm fortunate in that way because I've never really had an addictive personality. But I've had long stretches of time, years, without having anything to drink. And again, you can't appreciate how strong that connection is unless you give yourself a meaningful amount of time between drinks.

• 1:49:46Rich Roll?

  I think beyond that also, there is a comfort with yourself that is cultivated through the practices that you're talking about that puts you in a place where that idea of muting out doesn't seem as desirable as it once did because you don't have that unconscious discomfort that feels the allure or the pull of the substance that's going to kind of just quiet all of that noise. And I think alcohol aside, I mean alcohol is one, is a substance. But if you don't drink, I mean, we all find ways to distract ourselves

• 1:50:31Rich Roll?

  or take ourselves out of the present moment or habits, behaviors and other things that we use to not feel how we feel in the current moment because we don't feel good in ourselves. And part of that is being disconnected or out of alignment. And the more in alignment you become, then the quieter those impulses become as well. And I think abstinence is a way of creating clarity around that because you can really, it becomes very kind of like, it becomes a very tactile experience.

• 1:51:06Light Watkins?

  Yeah. Yeah. And like everything else we've been talking about, it's a practice. And you can make that a meditation itself. What can I replace this with? Because I'm not advocating-

• 1:51:18Rich Roll?

  Or when you feel that pull or that discomfort to just notice that.

• 1:51:22Light Watkins?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm definitely a big fan of the tortoise approach as opposed to the hare approach. And I think that habits that are formed in tiny ways end up being more sustainable than... And so in the book, I'm not even saying go three months in a row right off the bat. I'm saying go as long as you can go until you work up to three months. So it may take you two years to get to three months where you're getting a drink every week, once a week or something like that, and then you try to go to two weeks, and then you try to go to four weeks, and then you try to go to eight weeks, right? And that may take you six months. But it's a fun way to kind of be intentional about it. Where you're not beating yourself up, you're not shaming yourself from having a drink,

• 1:52:05Light Watkins?

  you're just challenging yourself in a fun way, okay? How long can I go now? Can I stretch it out to three weeks and then have a drink? And then eventually you make it to a point where you just, you don't desire to have a drink anymore.

• 1:52:17Rich Roll?

  Or you find it very difficult, and then that's powerful information.

• 1:52:22Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:23Rich Roll?

  Why is this so hard for me?

• 1:52:24Light Watkins?

  If you have an addiction problem, obviously, this is not a guide for that. But this is for people like me who are just kind of...

• 1:52:31Rich Roll?

  I'm just saying, whatever you discover as a result of that is just information to help you along the way.

• 1:52:36Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:36Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:52:37Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:39Rich Roll?

  We gotta wrap it up here shortly, but what is, you know, what do you, how would you articulate like the main idea that you're trying to convey here? Or the main kind of takeaway that you want the reader of this book to, you know, ponder when their head hits the pillow?

• 1:52:57Light Watkins?

  The main takeaway is that you have everything you need to create the life that you ultimately want right now. It's that you need more than what you have. If anything, it's you need less, less distraction. You need less temptation to, to use coping mechanisms and things like that. You need less stuff to buy in order to be fulfilled or happy. And so if you go inside and you start with cultivating the voice of your inner guidance, and you start listening to that voice, and you start acting upon that voice, that will take you in the direction of whatever it is that you envisioned for yourself. You're not expected to know how it happens.

• 1:53:41Light Watkins?

  You just make yourself as loyal as possible to those little impulses, without any expectation or anticipation of a specific result. And eventually, you will live your way into that life of your dreams, which is gonna come with lots of challenges, it's gonna come with you being stretched out of your comfort zone and into your potential. And you will look back at those experiences as the highlights of your life, and those challenging times as, again, the good parts of your story. That's what people are gonna wanna talk about. And it's a real-time process. So it's about really being process-oriented as opposed to outcome-oriented.

• 1:54:23Rich Roll?

  You just recounted the story of my life.

• 1:54:27Rich Roll?

  But you did it with, you know, like, you know, me trying to like, "How do I explain this?" And you just did it beautifully, like, concisely. Because that's exactly how I think about it and how it felt. And again, it doesn't, it wasn't easy, still not easy. It's not about that. It's fucking hard, man. But there is, there are like these immutable spiritual laws that time and time again, I'm shown to be true, all of which you, you know, speak about here. So I love it, man. Yeah, and then to the point of abundance, like,

• 1:55:10Rich Roll?

  the abundance that's driving us, or the desire for abundance, we're seeking it outside of ourselves. And, and yet, it's within us and available to us all the time, right? You have that quote about the abundance, that we don't create abundance, right? That the abundance is already there, and we either create access to it or limitations to it.

• 1:55:32Light Watkins?

  Right, yeah. And, you know, I think back to your book that you wrote, the first one, Finding Ultra, and you getting into the accident, and you wanting to quit, you know, the ultra marathon, and running into the lady and all this stuff. And it's like, those maybe not be your proudest moments, but those are the ones that, you know, make you you. And everybody has their version of that. But you have to get out of your, your zone of comfort in order to sort of rise to that level of your potential. And I'm hoping that this book... Helps people find that within themselves with the understanding that it's not going to be easy. You know, running an ultra marathon is probably one of the hardest things a human can do.

• 1:56:18Rich Roll?

  Not as hard as this inside stuff's harder, man. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. But you did an amazing job. I love the book. I love the illustrations, too.

• 1:56:28Light Watkins?

  Thanks, man. I work with this really wonderful illustrator out of Germany and I've been obsessed with the color blue for a long time. So I knew I wanted to have it. That's the galley copy. So it looks all black and white.

• 1:56:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I have the digital one, too. So I've seen the color.

• 1:56:44Light Watkins?

  Yeah. And it's what I like about this particular book, kind of like my last book, is that it's actually created in the way that I personally like to experience books, which is, you know, anybody who gets a book, the first thing they do is they crack it open in the middle somewhere and they kind of flip through it and they see if anything catches their eye. And so this book is actually written not to be read from cover to cover, but to be cracked open anywhere. And then whatever catches your eye, you read that section. And each section is only a page or two long. And then it can direct you to other sections. So it's kind of like a choose your own adventure read. It'll say if you want to learn more about capsule wardrobes, go to this page. If you want to learn more about meditating, you know, go to this section. And in that way, people can kind of have

• 1:57:28Light Watkins?

  their own little experience with the book that's different from anyone else's, which again, is encouraging you to listen to your heart voice. Your heart voice is saying, stop on this page and read it, or read it from cover to cover. You get an opportunity to practice that.

• 1:57:41Rich Roll?

  There you go. Well, beautifully rendered. I think it's going to help a lot of people. I think it's your best book yet. And super fun to talk to you about it today. Always good to see you, my friend.

• 1:57:51Light Watkins?

  Yeah, this is an honor, man. Honor and a pleasure being here with you.

• 1:57:54Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent. Right back at you. And yeah, you're welcome back anytime.

• 1:57:59Light Watkins?

  Beautiful. I'll take you up on that.

• 1:58:01Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna go home and think about what my carry on backpack is gonna look like.

• 1:58:07Light Watkins?

  Right.

• 1:58:08Rich Roll?

  Cool, man. Thanks, dude. Talk to you again soon. Cheers.

• 1:58:11Light Watkins?

  Peace. Namaste. Namaste.

• 1:58:26Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review

• 1:59:09Rich Roll?

  and/or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic

• 1:59:51Rich Roll?

  and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, as well as Dan Drake. Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.