Why Hustle Culture Is Failing You - And What to Do Instead | Jenna Kutcher (Fan Fav)

This is a fan fav episode. Were you one of the 47 million Americans that voluntarily quit their job in 2021, a massive event now referred to as the Great Resignation? If you didn’t quit, maybe you came close to submitting your resignation and decided not to. The burning question is, what did people move towards after leaving their job? Was it a burn the ships at the shore kind of moment or a hasty emotional move caused by mounting stress in the moment? No matter where you are in your career or business, there is one critical question you should be asking yourself. How are you, really? Jenna Kutcher has pivoted her career and entrepreneurial moves more than a few times. She’s not a stranger to adversity, stress, disappointment or asking the hard questions. From wedding photography, to podcast host, to helping entrepreneurs grow their email list, Jenna shares her secret sauce to pivoting career moves successfully, and how to align with success in a way that is fulfilling and feels right to you. Stop falling into the hustle culture trap and start asking yourself questions that awaken you at your core. Hustle culture isn’t necessarily all-in, burn the ships, forget sleep, your sanity, your rest and recovery. There’s another path and another option to achieving the success you’re after. ORIGINAL AIR DATE: 6-28-22 Check out Jenna Kutcher's new book, How Are You Really: https://amzn.to/3O6QLdO SHOW NOTES: 0:00 | Introduction to Jenna Kutcher 0:48 | Growing Your Self Awareness 6:30 | Rest. Recover. Be More Efficient. 11:34 | Vision Your Dream Life & Build It 28:47 | How to Pivot Successfully 36:24 | Breaking the Golden Handcuffs 49:11 | Confidence, Self Love & Acceptance 1:00:50 | Dealing With the Critic Echo What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here: If you want my help... STARTING a business:https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20showjoin me here at ZERO TO FOUNDER https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show SCALING a business:https://tombilyeu.com/callsee if you qualify here. https://tombilyeu.com/call Get my battle-tested strategies and insights delivered weekly to your inbox:https://tombilyeu.com/sign up here. https://tombilyeu.com/ ********************************************************************** If you're serious about leveling up your life, I urge you to check out my new podcast,Tom Bilyeu’s Mindset Playbook https://open.spotify.com/show/47VE90Cittmo6TGGFqg2xf —a goldmine of my most impactful episodes on mindset, business, and health. Trust me, your future self will thank you. ********************************************************************** Join me live on myTwitch stream https://impacttheory.co/4fitmnJ. I'm live daily from 6:30 to 8:30 am PT athttps://impacttheory.co/4fitmnJwww.twitch.tv/tombilyeu https://impacttheory.co/4fitmnJ ********************************************************************** LISTEN TO IMPACT THEORY AD FREE + BONUS EPISODES on APPLE PODCASTS:http://apple.co/impacttheoryapple.co/impacttheory http://apple.co/impacttheory ********************************************************************** FOLLOW TOM: Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok:https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=enhttps://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter:https://twitter.com/tombilyeuhttps://twitter.com/tombilyeu YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeuhttps://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

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• 0:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Their dashboard tracks what comes next based on what your business actually needs. So EIN number, registered agent, licenses and permits, bookkeeping, business banking. I tell every founder the same thing. Just make it official. Click the link in the show notes to check out Taylor Brands and get started on your business today. This is a paid advertisement. Welcome to the Impact Theory Podcast. Today, we're talking about one of the most important questions we can ask. Are you really happy where you are? If you've been a longtime listener of this podcast, you know the only belief that matters is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself. And today's guest lands on the same belief from a different path.

• 1:27Tom Bilyeu?

  You may know her as the host of the Goal Digger Podcast, a blogger, or for being a powerhouse who empowers women all over the world. And in today's episode, we are discussing her first book, How Are You Really?, and taking a deeper dive into what it takes to build your dream life to find success on your own terms and pivot safely. This is Impact Theory with Jenna Kutcher.

• 1:52Tom Bilyeu?

  Jenna Kutcher, welcome to the show.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Aw, thank you. Drew has been listening to your show and texting me photos, and I listen too, but he is like just poring through the archives. And I am just really honored to be here. Super cool.

• 2:04Tom Bilyeu?

  Well, I'm excited to have you. The book, How Are You Really?, was amazing.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:09Tom Bilyeu?

  And what I want to know is, if somebody comes to you, and this is a question I get asked all the time, they're feeling lost, not sure where to go with their life, what can they start doing right now to make sure that they get the self-awareness that they need to not waste another year, or, God forbid, even longer?

• 2:29Speaker 01

  I really think that our human race is struggling to be quiet with ourselves. We're constantly distracted. And it's really easy for me, as a parent, to see kids get distracted nowadays. It's like they don't know how to be bored anymore. But it's funny, because, you know, kids have screens in front of them, and then they don't know how to play, they don't know how to be creative anymore. But adults are doing the same thing. And so I think that so many people, when they're feeling that like lost, or that kind of unnerved edge, that I think a lot of us are like, where am I going? Where am I at? It's because we haven't gotten quiet with ourselves to actually face the answers. And when I think about the question, "How are you really?", there's a big difference there between just like, "How are you?", "Good?", "Great?", "Better?".

• 3:13Speaker 01

  I think all of us are living in that place a lot. But it's like when you're in a conversation and someone kind of leans in and you feel safe, "How are you really?", and you kind of let your guard down. We're afraid to do that with ourselves. So the first thing I would tell people to do is like, check in with yourself. Like, really, check in with yourself. If you need to schedule it on your calendar, just like you schedule a dentist appointment or a doctor's appointment, schedule in some time to like, get quiet with yourself, and not just ask the question, but be ready to listen to the answers.

• 3:43Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so you liken it to the dentist or the doctor, which for me, I absolutely hate.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 3:49Tom Bilyeu?

  And I imagine a lot of people have the same feeling. So, one, how do we get the courage to do that?

• 3:58Tom Bilyeu?

  Are there tools for dealing with what you feel coming back? That make that an easier thing to do?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, I think that courage is a great word to describe that because a lot of us, we go on to autopilot and autopilot just becomes our lives. Like, we look at like, what are we doing? Have you ever finished a day where you're like, I worked so freaking hard and I have no idea what I got done?

• 4:22Tom Bilyeu?

  Yes.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  I hate that. And I have a neurodivergent brain, so I feel like a lot of times I'm like all over the place. And I am doing that intentionally because I'm afraid to get quiet. So if somebody hates or needs that courage, I think the first thing you need to do is learn how to be quiet. It's like, I was talking to our friend Jamie Kern Lima. She's coming out of her book launch. She has been running, just running, running, running. And I was like, Jamie, when's the last time you rested? And she's like, I don't know. I don't know how to rest. I don't rest. I operate at this higher level. This is what I do. And I said, it's almost like you need to do a couch to 5K, but in reverse. Like, we need an app that tells us today, you are gonna get quiet with yourself for one minute. And tomorrow, it's two minutes.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  And it's like, we have to build that muscle. For me, rest takes just as much, if not more work, than running full steam ahead.

• 5:18Tom Bilyeu?

  Now, is there a difference between resting and being quiet with yourself?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yes and no. I think that we need the margin of rest. Like, rest offers us the margin to be able to silence all of the to-do lists and the things and the efficiency. And then when we have that margin, then we can get to the bottom of things. And so it's like the quieting of the mind. It's like meditation. I used to say, I can't meditate, my brain is too busy. I didn't realize that meditation wasn't silencing your brain. It was just starting to pay attention to your thoughts, right? There's a big difference there.

• 5:53Tom Bilyeu?

  There's a huge difference.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  I try. And I realized and welcomed in that like the distractions are the meditation. It's just coming back home, coming back home, coming back home, just guiding yourself back. And I think that we don't do that enough in our lives when it's like checking in with ourselves. We get distracted and let the distractions take over instead of guiding ourselves back. So it's like if we can learn how to get quiet with ourselves and almost treat it like we're training for a marathon of like, today I'm gonna just do a minute, tomorrow I'm gonna do two minutes, then we're starting to create that rhythm that gives us a space to be quiet. And in that quietness is when we can actually get to the bottom of it.

• 6:29Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, so what does that minute look like mechanistically? Am I sitting comfortably?

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Do whatever the heck you want. I think, so for me, like yesterday, I was in a cab, driving in LA, and I'm not familiar with this area, I don't know it, I don't feel necessarily comfortable here, I'm from Minnesota, like, small town, so like, traffic for us is like when the stoplight is red, we're like frustrated. And so, I was sitting there and I was kind of feeling like a little anxious and unease, and I looked out the window and I said like, what is something I can see right now? What is something I can smell right now? What am I feeling right now? And like, just coming back home, I mean, it's a practice a lot of people do when anxiety rises up, where it's like, started listing like, where am I? And am I safe and am I good? But for me, it's really just like, taking that deep breath.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Today, I was getting my hair blow dried, I was on my phone, kind of doing all these things, I was like, be here right now. You don't have to be efficient all the time. You don't have to be doing something or creating something. And so, for me, it can look anywhere, but it's like, taking that deep breath, realizing I haven't been breathing deep enough, and then relaxing into that.

• 7:39Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, so I want to talk about efficiency really fast, in a super self-indulgent way, and I want to get back to like, how people then listen, what are they hearing, how do they construct it? But, so it sounds like you and I struggle with the same thing.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:51Tom Bilyeu?

  So, I prize efficiency so much, that, I remember I used to walk towards my car, and I would try to make it such that I got my hand in my pocket and hit the unlock just in time to be able to open the door. So there was no fumbling, hesitation, nothing. And if I didn't do everything perfectly, like if I missed my seat buckle, and you know, with the seatbelt and didn't get it in.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  You wasted a second.

• 8:12Tom Bilyeu?

  I was like, oh my god, exactly. Now, it was fun, it wasn't like, I wasn't in a mental health crisis.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:17Tom Bilyeu?

  There was something fun about it. But it can become pathological if you're not careful. So as somebody who's been so richly rewarded for being efficient, because as an entrepreneur you are.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:30Tom Bilyeu?

  What have you like hooked into to make the rest, relaxation as rewarding as the efficiency?

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I am the exact same way. I literally am so precise at like, if I'm gonna bring laundry up the stairs, I'm gonna like make sure I fold it just right so I can drop everything off in one's one, you know, go at it. So I feel the same way, but I have had to learn how to rest. So an example I give in the book is at the end of yoga, there's shavasana, where you lay on the floor. I freaking hated shavasana.

• 9:03Tom Bilyeu?

  Just because it leaves you alone with your thoughts?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I felt like I needed to do a super sweaty workout in order to earn the right to rest. So if I didn't do an intense yoga workout, if I didn't do all the binds and the headstands and everything, who am I to lay on the floor for five minutes? I didn't earn it. That's a broken thought, but it's a thought that a lot of people hold, that we need to earn the right to rest, that it's not like our birthright. And I think that's kind of scary because I think we're constantly hustling. And I was actually really excited for my conversation with you because you and I are very similar in a lot of ways, but we also think very differently in a lot of ways. And I was like, really excited to kind of break things down and just have those different perspectives because you are where you are because you've worked the way you've worked.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I am where I am because I've rested in the way that I've rested. And I think it's a beautiful, like our relationship is really unique in that because we can agree to disagree on certain things of like what it takes or how you get to where you're going and what that path looks like. But at the same point, we have to recognize that our output is one thing, but like at the expense of what? And for me, like, and I know you guys have dealt with your own health things, like with Lisa and different things like that where it's like my body is speaking to me and trying to give me signals that I have to slow down, like the check engine light is on. And when we went through two miscarriages while trying to grow our family, it was not just...

• 10:37Speaker 01

  For me at the time, it felt like a failure, but really, when I look at it now in hindsight, which hindsight is always 2020, like, my body was literally telling me, like, it can't even support your life right now, let alone support another human's life. And so when I think about shavasana and laying on the floor and resting, I didn't feel like I deserved rest. I was scared to slow down because I was afraid that the momentum would leave and that it would all go away. And I've learned that in that resting comes this, like, trusting of like, what has gotten me to here will carry me forward. And I have all those tools in my toolkit ready to be pulled out, but they don't need to be all out right now. Does that make sense? Oh, yes.

• 11:19Tom Bilyeu?

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• 12:04Tom Bilyeu?

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• 12:47Tom Bilyeu?

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• 13:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Incogni is I-N-C-O-G-N-I dot com slash impact. Promo code IMPACT. It's completely risk-free with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Okay, so I love the idea of don't let yourself be trapped into thinking that you have to earn that rest. I think that's really important. I think a lot of the world, that may not be their struggle. Their struggle may be the exact reverse. But I think that's really important for people to hear. But now that we're quiet, so we're not fighting ourselves, we're taking our rest, we're in shavasana, we're laid out, and we're really gonna make use of it, something begins to happen, which is our mind starts racing.

• 14:11Tom Bilyeu?

  And what I loved about How Are You Really is you can even fool yourself and give yourself the "I'm fine, it's all good, everything's okay." And then people end up either like accepting a path that is not ideal for what they want to do, it's not bringing them the joy that they want to experience, or it's just complete and utter misery. So what I want to know is, as the mind begins to spin, how do you make that useful? How do you either get it quiet enough to hear intuition? Or to begin to build a plan? Like, how do you? Because I know what people go through. They're, they just want up off the floor so that they can distract themselves.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:57Tom Bilyeu?

  And if they're gonna make use of that, what is it that they have to understand?

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I always start with the easy questions and work towards the hard ones. And actually, in Lisa's book-

• 15:08Tom Bilyeu?

  The easy questions about your life?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yes. In Lisa's book, she talks about how she was saying like, everything was good enough, right? Like, good enough, why should I be complaining? Where it's like, the gratitude turned in to the place that was keeping her stuck. And I think that's such a fascinating thought. Like, when she was saying that, I was like, my gosh. Like, nowadays, if I ever complain about anything, it's always with these caveats. Like, I'm really stressed out as a mom, but I'm so grateful to have healthy kids, and I'm so grateful to have a partner, and all these things. And it's like, we've forgotten that this isn't like a comparison. Hard is hard. And when we're laying on the floor, or however we're choosing to rest, what creeps in is like, I should be happy. I should be grateful. What, what is wrong with me?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Everyone also be so happy to have this situation. Why am I not happy? And what it's led to is, I feel like so many people are just faking that they're enjoying their life. I don't know how many people, I mean, we know so many successful people, and you see them just crushing it online. And if you sit down with them and ask them, how are you really? They're miserable. And you were recently talking about how, you know, for so long, like, money was a pursuit. Money was a pursuit. And I think for so many people, it is, because it's a necessity. But when you put money above your time, when you treat money as the currency and not time,

• 16:34Speaker 01

  you start to spend your life trading your, your hours for dollars to not even be able to enjoy it. And so, when I start laying on the floor, it's like, how am I today? How does today feel? Like, am I excited about what I'm gonna do today? The second part of that is not just what does success look like? Because I think a lot of us can make vision boards all day, right? Like, we could go onto Pinterest, pin the house, the car, the outfits, whatever. But how is success supposed to feel? Because I'll tell you that my most successful moments are the least glamorous things. Like, my most successful moments are things that people would never understand. It's like pancakes on a Saturday morning.

• 17:17Tom Bilyeu?

  I would have bet millions of dollars you were gonna say pancakes.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  I-

• 17:21Tom Bilyeu?

  Which, if people read the book, they would guess.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yes. So, I had this vision when we were struggling to grow our family. And I was working with someone who was like, just working on helping me get quiet with myself. Because I was in a state of grief, I was in a state of anger. And we set up a weekly call, and every time she would call, I just wanted to ignore it. It was like, I can't, I don't wanna face it, I don't wanna unearth it, I know I'm gonna have to deal with it. And one day, we get on the phone, and she's like, "I want you to sit down, and I'm gonna lead you through this exercise. You don't have to do anything, just, just listen." And she asked me, she said, "I want you to envision like, your most vibrant self. And I want for you to step into that body."

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Like, feel your fingers in her finger slots, your toes, where her toes land. Like, feel what it feels like to be alive, and vibrant, and healthy, and happy. And I remember just like, sitting there, and like, tears are just streaming down my face, and-

• 18:19Tom Bilyeu?

  Because you're imagining it.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Because I'm imagining it, and it felt real. They're happy tears, but it was like, my reality is so far away from this. And I wasn't envisioning anything grand. I was envisioning me wearing jeans, which most days I wear sweatpants, a white linen shirt, and I envisioned this little girl eating pancakes at a table. We didn't have any children at the time. And it was so real, I could like, literally hear the little girls giggle. And I get so emotional because that exercise, it felt so, just, I mean, it was 10 minutes of my life. But it transformed it for me because then, two years later, when we were able to have our daughter, when I was having those pancakes and hearing that giggle,

• 19:05Speaker 01

  I recognized that I was like, living that moment. Do you remember when we were in Puerto Rico? And Brendan told us, like, imagine the scenes for your life. Like, as someone who creates films, like you want to do, you direct and you are in charge of everything. But we often cast ourselves as like the extra in our life. And when you imagine this scene and then you get to experience it, you're awake to it. And every single time we make pancakes and I hear a giggle, I'm like, this is it. And I think that when we're so hard on ourselves or when we can't get quiet with ourselves, we can't even hold a vision.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  And when we can't hold a vision, we can't realize when we're living it. It's like that quote, like, five years ago, you would have prayed for what you're living today. Why do we need the five years to recognize that? Why can we not recognize that, like, every day, we're getting one step closer if we're working towards it?

• 20:07Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, that idea of something to aim at, I think, is really interesting. So in the book and interviews, I've heard you talk about this, that you actually described the life you're living now, when I think you were in college. And it was very atypical. Like, that would not have been the common description. And that you and your husband ended up coming together on that. At least as you have described it, almost like through osmosis. How important is that? So as somebody's getting quiet, is it, is it creating a vision that you can then begin steering towards?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I mean, absolutely. I think that for us, so we were, we met my freshman year of college, Drew and I, we were just friends, quote unquote, for years. And we really were just friends. I always thought he was really cute, but that was where it kind of stopped. And what's fascinating is like, when we got married, I was working at Target. He was working at a cellphone place, selling cellphones.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  And over the last decade, we've like just transformed and grown together. But every step of the way, we've had both our own visions for ourselves. And I think you and Lisa have had this too, and you've experienced it through your evolution. But we've had our own visions for ourselves, but we've also had this shared vision. And I think that shared vision is so vital because if you are working towards a life that isn't traditional, or that doesn't look like everyone else's, sometimes you need someone to cast that vision for you when you start getting lost, right? Sometimes you need someone to say, I see it, it's gonna be great, you gotta keep going. And you guys have so many stories of how you continue to light the way for each other and said like, we're in this together.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  And it's fascinating because my husband's a stay-at-home dad. And in the Midwest, and I mean, still everywhere, it's, it's not traditional. I can't tell you the amount of times that we'll be somewhere or say something about our life or our lifestyle, and someone will look at Drew and say, and what do you do for a living? And then he'll say, I stay at home with my daughters. And then they'll look at me like, well, what do you do? And when we have, I mean, I am such a different person than I was when we stood at the altar 11 years ago. But what I think is beautiful is not only have we fallen in love with each version of ourselves, but we've welcomed in the evolution. I think people are so resistant of changing, we're so afraid of it. Look at the last few years that we've all lived through.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  We've faced uncertainty, we are resilient and adaptable. If you don't believe that about yourself now, what are you doing? Because we've proven to ourselves that we can face uncertainty and still come out of it. So what is so scary about changing your mind, or changing your life, or changing your decisions that you're going to face something different? That's scary? I think that's exciting. So Drew and I have really had to continue to like shine the light on like here's the vision. Here's the vision. He wanted to be a stay at home dad. And we weren't able to have a family. To be a stay at home dad, you have to have children. So I had to keep shining the light like we're gonna get there. We're gonna get there. But you know, it's a lot of baton handing off. You guys have had that. You're in that right now.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Where it's like, it's your turn to run babe, and I'm right here behind you. And I think that a lot of people forget, it's like we're on the same team. And we share that vision. And when you do that, it makes it so much easier and way more fun to go through life like that.

• 23:40Tom Bilyeu?

  No doubt. Okay, so you get quiet.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:43Tom Bilyeu?

  You build this vision.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:45Tom Bilyeu?

  You hopefully surround yourself with people that can dream cast with you.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:50Tom Bilyeu?

  They're taking the baton back and forth and you're building a life together. Um, how do you know if you're building in the right direction? How do you know that you've created the right vision?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  That it feels good.

• 24:02Tom Bilyeu?

  That's very direct and gave me the chills.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  I have, okay, tell me this. You've, you've done so many incredible things in your career. How many times have you arrived at something that you set as a goal and it felt empty?

• 24:14Tom Bilyeu?

  Only once.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Really?

• 24:16Tom Bilyeu?

  Because I learned from it.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 24:17Tom Bilyeu?

  It was so profoundly devastating.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Okay, tell me more.

• 24:20Tom Bilyeu?

  It was so dark.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:22Tom Bilyeu?

  And thank God for Lisa.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:24Tom Bilyeu?

  Because she pulled me aside and said, you're really unhappy. And it's now damaging our marriage. And because I had put our marriage first, I was like, that was the wake up call. I needed to take immediate action. Cause I was like, well, I know what my values are.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:39Tom Bilyeu?

  And so thankfully, you know, unfortunately, and you talk about this very eloquently, that sometimes we have to learn things the hard way.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:46Tom Bilyeu?

  And I wish that I didn't. I wish that I had just listened when people said that money can't buy you happiness. I wish I had understood what that really meant.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:53Tom Bilyeu?

  That money can't buy you the neurological state that you will most love being in. And maybe if somebody had said it like that, it would have broken through. But anyway, it didn't. So I chased money for a long time. Lisa finally pulls me aside, points out that I'm profoundly unhappy. And so, once I decided, okay, I'm never gonna chase money again. I haven't repeated that mistake. So now, I definitely understand. It doesn't mean that I don't end up somewhere where I'm like, oh, I thought this would be different.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:19Tom Bilyeu?

  But I don't, I'm never chasing the outcome.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 25:24Tom Bilyeu?

  So I'm just really cautious about, as the process becomes less and less fun. Because it's never like binary where you step across the line and, oh, now it's not fun.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:34Tom Bilyeu?

  It's like, oh, like if you've ever been in the ocean and you feel like a cold current hit you. And you're like, oh, what was that? And you back up and it's warm again. So it's like, it, yeah, it's kinda.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  It's gradual.

• 25:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, exactly. So I've been careful not to get trapped. I make mistakes all the time.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:52Tom Bilyeu?

  But I don't get fooled in that way anymore.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Your audience should learn that from you. Like, that is one of your greatest lessons you can offer. Because I think that people continue to set goals and they arrive at them. And they don't feel like they thought they would. And then they start to doubt themselves and their ability to cast the right goals or to set the right goals. I remember when I first hit six figures, which was just a massive deal to me. And I remember the day. And I remember taking a shower and being like, why aren't the angels singing? Why, like, where is the celebration? Where are those like cute little balloons that all the girls on Instagram have? Like, nothing is different about my life. In fact, I feel like exhausted.

• 26:35Tom Bilyeu?

  Yep.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  And, you know, it, it's interesting because I feel like I learned that lesson really young. I was probably 25. And I, and Drew and I sat down and I said, I was chasing the wrong thing. This doesn't feel good. And in fact, I'm really burnt out right now. And I was miserable. And I remember telling him, like, I would rather make $50,000 a year, go back, eat more ramen noodles, whatever it takes, but to have time with you. Because here I am, sitting and working and looking at a picture of you and I don't get to experience you. This isn't like what our life was supposed to be. And so I feel like so often when we're chasing these things, we're not actually staying in alignment of like, does this feel good?

• 27:20Speaker 01

  I mean, have you ever looked at your calendar and you're like, who booked this? Yes. It was me, like I did it, like where you're like, who chose this for me? Oh, wait, I put all these things on there and I don't want to do any of them. Yep. And I think we don't take responsibility for that first, but we also don't take the steps to change it. I feel like boundaries are like the new like balance. You know, balance is like the catchphrase for many years. And I feel like boundaries are is the new word, but for good reason, because a lot of us, your wife included, we were yes people. We're trained to always say yes, to always say yes. Well, we have looked at boundaries as this thing that like keeps people or things out of our lives, when in fact, boundaries keep us in our life.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  And if we set right boundaries, so if we create boundaries that keep us living our lives, like boundaries for me, for example, we don't sleep with our cell phones in our bedroom. We don't use our cell phones for work. So my team only operates on the computer. There's no expectation to have their phone. Your phone is your personal device. I will never text or call you unless it's an emergency. Creating boundaries like that keeps me in my life. So if my three year old Waltz is in the room and my phone goes off, I know it's either her dad or her grandma or someone like that. It's not work and it's not going to pull me out of that moment. And so when I think about how do we stay in alignment with success?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  It's those constant check ins of like, how does this feel? It's looking out for the cold fronts. When the cold fronts are showing up for a few different days, okay, maybe it's time to reevaluate.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  And in today's world, I was thinking about this the other night, and I want to get your thoughts on this. When we're on an app like Instagram and we're scrolling through it, I follow interior designers and fashion bloggers and entrepreneurs. And I follow, you know, motivational speakers. I follow incredible mothers and I'm consuming all this information. And my brain isn't recognizing that these people are really good at one thing. And so my brain is telling me I need to be good at all the things. I need to have a house that looks like the interior designers. I need to be the mother, like the stay at home mother. I need to have the career, like the motivational speaker. I, you know. And I was thinking about it and I was like, it's fascinating how our brains

• 29:47Speaker 01

  separate like the niches and throw them all into a category that makes us believe that we're not doing enough or being enough, which is why I believe that we're chasing things that maybe look good, but don't feel good.

• 29:59Tom Bilyeu?

  God, that's so important.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Isn't it?

• 30:01Tom Bilyeu?

  That's so important. That was the thing that I really liked about the book is, so my obsession, honestly, if, if all of my efforts, you ask me to like, what is the one thing that you want to get across to people? And I'm talking everything, the comics, the video games, movies, TV, what we're doing now, it would be you're having a biological experience.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:23Tom Bilyeu?

  What I'm trying to convey with that idea is that ultimately you are a brain in a vat, it's just that your vat is your skull. And once you understand that it, all that matters is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:40Tom Bilyeu?

  And so when you're quiet, when you're shavasana on the floor and you're alone with your thoughts, are you like word? Or are you traumatized? And if you're traumatized, that is not, it's not shame on you, but listen, it's a data point.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:58Tom Bilyeu?

  And what I love about your story is that you've actually acted on these data points. And I want to know how. So you, the number of pivots you've made in your life, and you detail this in the book, but the number of pivots you made in your life is really incredible. I mean, it's, I, I know not to make you extraordinary and let myself off the hook, but it's pretty incredible. Like you've found success every time you've changed. But I think that you changed in a way that avoided you hitting an iceberg.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:31Tom Bilyeu?

  Or at least, maybe you hit the iceberg, but you didn't sink.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:34Tom Bilyeu?

  So how, going back to this, okay, we're building a life. We have the person that's gonna help us, or the people that are gonna help us. But how do you get the, and maybe it's skill set, to successfully pivot?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:47Tom Bilyeu?

  Because there's so much fear in that moment.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:50Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm assuming part of what helps you get to the other side is you're like, I can figure this out.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Yes. So, to give context, just a few of the things I've done. We actually have one in common. I was a forklift driver as well.

• 32:00Tom Bilyeu?

  Really, really?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  I really was.

• 32:03Tom Bilyeu?

  So I was a forklift driver and I did wedding videography.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yes. So I drove forklift at a paper mill.

• 32:08Tom Bilyeu?

  Right, so.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  My first job ever was cleaning limousines.

• 32:11Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, that I haven't.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Done a lot of different things, but in my entrepreneurial career, I was a wedding photographer. Then I had a watercolor print shop. Then I became a podcast, or a speaker, a coach, all these different things. And my thing that I truly believe is my secret sauce, is that everything started as a side hustle. I had to build up the confidence in myself to go all in on every single thing. So, I feel like there are two camps of people. The people who are like, jump and the net will appear. And the people who are like, let me weave my net, so that I feel safe enough to make the leap. I'm the weaver. I'm the person that I'm like, I need to trust that this calling is right. And I need to experiment with it first, to know how it feels.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  So every single time I've started anything, I've always started it as a side hustle, with no pressure, no stakes. I don't want money involved. I always do it as like a creative outlet. And then when it feels good, or if it feels good, I pivot into it. And so, one of the reasons why I feel like I've been able to do it successfully. Is because I built a brand, not a business.

• 33:23Tom Bilyeu?

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• 34:06Tom Bilyeu?

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• 34:25Speaker 01

  And what I mean by that is, is by definition, a business is like the product or offer that you have for sale. But a brand is the personality behind those offers. And even when I was a wedding photographer, I was showing up, talking about struggles and joys and triumphs and all these things. So when all of a sudden I was like, I think I'm going to get out of weddings, which is exactly what I've known for. I was the top wedding photographer in the state for four years in a row. Leaving that behind is a really big deal. But I had so many life moments when we were trying to grow our family where I was like, this isn't it anymore. It's just not it. I didn't hang up my camera and say, peace out, I'll figure out what's next. I kept shooting, but I did less and less and less.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  And there's a chapter in the book that talks about finding your enough point. And what I mean by that is finding the place where you can continue doing what is giving you the security you need to free up your time to get the creativity back. So towards the end of my wedding career, I was shooting seven weddings, which was paying our mortgage and our bills so that I wasn't worrying about that. But I wasn't doing 35 weddings in a summer and killing myself over it. And so I have been able to pivot because one, I do so safely and slowly. But two, I let myself be creative again without the pressure. And I think one thing that is so hard for us as entrepreneurs is we immediately think, how can I monetize that? Or like, how can I get paid for my time, right?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Because we value our time is so expensive. But I have built a brand that allows me to move and evolve and change and grow and invite people in on that. Without being like a, and today I'm this version and tomorrow I'm this version and you've got to follow me. But it's like, hey, I'm curious about this thing. I think I'm going to give it a shot. Just going to try it out and see what happens. And I invite people with that to come on that journey with me. I am all about like showing up imperfectly. I was telling you as I walked in today, I'm like, this is amazing. I was like, I recorded my closet. It's one of the top podcasts in the country and I literally record in a tiny closet with no team and just a microphone. And I still do that five years in.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  But that's the approachable alignment that I need to make things feel good for me. And so, yes, I've pivoted time and time again, and I think I'm going to continue doing so because I kind of get bored. Or I kind of have different like calls that I'm like curious about. But everything starts as a side hustle. And I feel like the world of entrepreneurship has neglected this segment of the audience who is in that trial phase or the experimentation phase. They don't feel like they fit. They don't feel like they're an entrepreneur. They can't say they're an entrepreneur and they don't feel like they're a hobbyist. They have this dream and this curiosity, but they're like, where do I belong? I don't fit in, in this world that we've given them. And so I just want to say like, if you are in that experimentation phase, freaking have fun with it.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Get creative, but don't box yourself in or create another ladder that you're climbing that might not be going in the right direction.

• 37:28Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, I think that's really smart. I get so nervous when people say, burn the ships at the shore.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:33Tom Bilyeu?

  And like, I get it.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  I get it.

• 37:34Tom Bilyeu?

  It's really motivating.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  But security is huge.

• 37:37Tom Bilyeu?

  It also, yes, when you have security and you can take your time to think through a problem and solve it well, you're set up to build a brand and not a business. When it's all business and it's like, I have to make money right now, today. You start making short-term decisions. It's not necessarily, certainly not optimized for your emotional state. It may not even be optimized for the long-term health of the business.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:01Tom Bilyeu?

  And so people get themselves into some pretty gnarly situations. Caught up in like the romance of entrepreneurship. And there is romance. Like there's something amazing about building one of the world's most listened to podcasts from your closet. Like that's part of the appeal. And that's why when you came in and said, oh, my God, this is all amazing.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:17Tom Bilyeu?

  My identity is not tied up in that.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:19Tom Bilyeu?

  And so I'm grateful for the compliments, very kind. But what I said was, all that matters is whether you're having impact or not.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:26Tom Bilyeu?

  And so closet set, it really doesn't matter.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:30Tom Bilyeu?

  And so making sure that people are focusing on the right things, which you and I have. And when you were saying in the beginning that, you know, there's things we disagree on. I don't know, reading your book, I feel like we have a different presentation layer. Like you and I are functionally different interacting with us. But at the end, we're both saying like, hey, be really thoughtful about how you feel. Because that's all that matters. And if you have a billion dollars and no time to spend on the things that you love. What are you doing?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:00Tom Bilyeu?

  Like, it doesn't matter.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Yep, it doesn't matter. It's funny, I had this goal of being debt-free by the age of 30. And.

• 39:09Tom Bilyeu?

  Did you make it?

• 39:10Speaker 01

  I did, I was 29. And I went into the bank to pay off our mortgage. And I like walked up and it was like, Michelle. And I was like, Michelle, I would like to pay off our mortgage. And she was like, I don't know what, I don't know how to do that. And she was like, are you sure? I was like, yeah, I really want to. And it's funny to me because I had hit this point where I was like, what is the point of making money? When you're not even enjoying the benefits of it? And there's actually a chapter in the book called The Golden Handcuffs, which I think a lot of people are facing right now. It's like the great resignation from corporate jobs or jobs that people aren't happy in. And in this story, I had spoken with one of my best friends. We've been best friends since college.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Every time I talked to her, she was just unhappy in her job. And she was the most devoted employee. Like, I was like, I will pay you so much money if you come work for me. Because she stayed with this company over a decade, but hated it. And every time I would tell her, like, you could do a million other things. She's like, you know, but I get vacation and I fly first class. And there's a ping pong table in the break room. And I was like, do you do any of those things? Do you take vacation? Do you, do you like ping pong? Like, does that really add value to your life? And I think the golden handcuffs can come, whether you're an entrepreneur or in a nine to five, or even a stay at home parent, where you convince yourself that the perks should be enough, but you don't even enjoy those perks.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  And there's a voice telling you, again, like, you should be happy, or you, you should be blessed, or you should feel so grateful for these things. But we've forgotten how to, like, listen to that gut feeling. We've forgotten because we're so analytical and logical, which I love. Like, I, I'm a very logical person. But I forgot how to be emotional for a long time. I forgot to, like, feel my actual feelings. And being a mom actually has really helped me to see a lot of these ways that I've numbed things or dulled things or avoided things, because I watch a three year old try to process feelings. And I watch her get so frustrated or mad

• 41:23Speaker 01

  or like feeling so many things that she can't even express. And I'm like, ooh, I have, I've literally just been trying to be happy and not actually feel the sadness. Or I've been trying to avoid the madness or the frustration until it bubbles over. And so it's, it's interesting when we look at things like people leaving the workforce, because I feel like it's like that breaking point. It's like the straw that broke the camel's back, where they're finally ready to be like, I'm gonna jump, and there isn't a net, but I'm gonna hope that I can find one or make one. And so it's really-

• 41:56Tom Bilyeu?

  How do you think they're gonna do?

• 41:58Speaker 01

  I hope that they're gonna do great, because I-

• 42:00Tom Bilyeu?

  You and I both hope they're gonna do great. But like, really look into the future. Because I think that you have a unique, uh, voice that people can really hear. I think a lot of the people that are gonna jump, or that have jumped, they crash. How do you help them build back up? Because it's survivable, but they're gonna need tools.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  So I feel like when people are jumping, it's my first indicator that they're actually listening to themselves. Right? Like they're finally at their wits' end, or they're finally at the place where they're like, "I don't care that there's no boat there, I'm gonna go." So to me, that's a really good indicator that they're finally coming home to themselves, or like getting honest with themselves. But it is really scary because it's like, "Do you have the right tools in your toolbox to build up what's next?" Or do you have the belief? One thing that you and I did and continue to do is like if we don't know how to do something, we learn, right? And I feel like people have stopped embracing like the role of a student. It's like we don't want to be seen being at the beginning of anything.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  We want to like show up when it's perfect and fancy and done. But a lot of people are gonna be at the beginning. And I think the more that we can show the beginnings, whether it's at this stage of their career or from 10 years ago, or when you guys were like Googling, "What is a pallet?" Like Lisa's like, "What is a pallet?" "Sure, I'll do a pallet. What is a pallet?"

• 43:26Speaker 01

  We've forgotten to be in that position of students. And so I hope that the people that are jumping and maybe crashing are poising themselves in a position to learn and to take on this belief that it's okay to be at the beginning again, but you've got to be willing to work. I think that's where things are getting a little convoluted in our culture. There are so many businesses right now that can't find people to work, right? Like people aren't, there isn't that willingness to like pick yourself up by the bootstraps and show up for a shift even if it's not your dream job. And so how do we help people realize? Like if you are not where you want to be today, you can keep doing that work while you're waiting. You don't have to waste that time.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  That work while you're waiting is super valuable and that should be your bootcamp to help you get to where you want to go. And for me, when I think about even the story of like the vision of me wearing jeans and a white linen shirt and the little girl with the pancakes, when I look down at my life, I'm like, I'm in freaking yoga pants and a T-shirt. If I can't even buy the damn jeans, why do I think that I'm gonna change once that little girl comes into my life? Why do I not buy the jeans and wear them today and get one step closer to that vision? And so for the people that are hitting and crashing and burning right now, I hope that you can hold enough space to have a vision, but then move forward in even like the most

• 44:56Speaker 01

  microscopic way. Like, if your vision is to be vibrant and healthy, maybe today you just put your running shoes on. Maybe tomorrow you take 10 steps in them. Maybe the next day you walk a mile. But I think we're afraid to even start, you know?

• 45:14Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, yes. Yeah, and I mean, a lot of what you said has has become controversial, which makes me very sad.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:23Tom Bilyeu?

  Because my thing is, so going back to, okay, the one thing I want to be remembered for, you're having a biological experience. If you're gonna give me two things, the next one is skills have utility.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:33Tom Bilyeu?

  And so the point of garnering a skill set is that it lets you do something that other people can't do, and therefore you become valuable and viable. And that doesn't mean that you have no worth if you don't have a job or you don't have a skill set. You do, and you know, all the creatures have a certain intrinsic value. But to glom onto that at the expense of understanding that the reason that humans have become the just, I mean, the things we can do are so breathtaking.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:04Tom Bilyeu?

  Is that we, so there's a quote often attributed to Oh God, Evolution, what's his name?

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Darwin?

• 46:13Tom Bilyeu?

  Darwin, thank you. He didn't actually say it, but it's somebody that was very, very familiar with his work and said, "It's not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but rather the most adaptive to change." And that's what makes humans as a species so incredible. We are, so every species has to choose a strategy. So a horse comes out and it can do all the horsey things in 20 minutes. As you well know, as a parent, it's not the same with children.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:39Tom Bilyeu?

  And so, we have this long, protracted period where we have to be taken care of. We have to learn how to walk and talk and do all the human-y things.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:47Tom Bilyeu?

  But if you look at that and go, "Oh, that's what we're designed to do." That's the strategy that as a species, we have chosen.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:56Tom Bilyeu?

  Therefore, it doesn't matter if I'm good at it today, I just crashed and burned. Okay, why? Because I don't yet have the skill set. So now the question is, check in with yourself, do you actually want the skill set?

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:06Tom Bilyeu?

  And so, I'm always telling people, ask yourself, do you really want to be the best in the world at that? You probably won't ever make it, which is fine, but do you really want to strive towards being the best wedding photographer, forklift driver, whatever the case may be? If the answer is yes, amazing, the journey's going to be incredible because you will enjoy acquiring the skill set.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:22Tom Bilyeu?

  If the answer is no, then even acquiring the skill set will be a loss because you won't enjoy it. But now that you've decided, I really do want to be great at this. Great at this is just skills.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:35Tom Bilyeu?

  It's not, you're a better person, it's just you have skills that let you do something that other people can't do.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:41Tom Bilyeu?

  And so, how do you become the best wedding photographer or the greatest marketer? You go get good at wedding photography or marketing.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:49Tom Bilyeu?

  And so, to me, that's always like really grounded it. And so, when I think about, there's going to be a lot of people doing the Great Resignation. You framed it perfectly. You've finally woken up

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:00Tom Bilyeu?

  to what you're really feeling. Amazing, but now, if you crash, don't panic.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:06Tom Bilyeu?

  This is about skill acquisition.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, it's, it's interesting because I think a lot of times, when I look even at my wedding photography career, I wanted to become a wedding photographer because I was a bride myself. So I had lived that experience and I was like, this is fascinating. And I found myself not just like picturing me as a bride, but picturing me as a person capturing the bride. And I was so worried because I went to school for business and I was like, people are gonna like, wonder where I got my photography degree. They're gonna ask all these questions. Never once in my career did somebody ask me, like, where did you go to art school? And I studied. It was, it was crazy when I bought my camera. So I bought this camera on Craigslist

• 48:49Speaker 01

  for $300 and it was at a time when I was in my nine to five feeling burnt out. Like if The Great Resignation was a decade ago, that would have been like my moment of like the signal. Like, I don't want to do this five-year plan. I don't want to stay in this office. I need to get out. The camera became my vehicle to get out of there. And I remember, I didn't realize how uninspired I had become. I didn't realize that I had forgotten how to be creative. I didn't realize that I wasn't nurturing the side of myself that was curious. And so I bought this camera, didn't even know what the lens numbers meant, like, didn't know anything. Like, someone is like, oh, what lens you got on there? And I was like, reading it. I was like, 24 to 70 mm?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Like, I didn't know. I literally slept with my camera on my nightstand and would pick it up at random times, like, of the day with different lighting and try to learn how to shoot it. And it was like, one of those things where I'd make Drew dance around with our dogs, our little tiny dogs, and like, try to figure out the flash and like, try to learn it. And it was the first time in my adult life where I was a student that was curious enough to find the solutions without like, someone telling me, like, here's step A, B, C, D, and E. I was like, okay, I'm gonna look at a picture and study it and wonder, what did somebody say to get those people to laugh that way? Or how did they like, know where to set them up with a light looking that way? And so for the people that are leaving The Great Resignation, I would

• 50:13Speaker 01

  say, first, start with like, what you're curious about. Like, what do you find yourself searching on Google at like, 2:00 in the morning? Or like, what forums or rabbit holes do you go down where you want to learn more about that? Oftentimes, we brush off our curiosities as just something like weird or something different about us. But every time I've been curious about something enough to like dive into it and be a student of it, I've found like gifts inside of that. And so when I became a wedding photographer, I was so worried that people were gonna say like, "You're a fraud. What are you doing? Like, you don't have any, you don't have any business doing this." But I did have business doing it because I was learning it and committed to learning it.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  And I mean, think about your journey and all the ways that you had to learn how to do everything. You had to wear every single hat to get something off the ground. But beyond that, you had to have the belief that you could do it.

• 51:07Tom Bilyeu?

  Yep.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  And we've forgotten how to believe in ourselves. It's so easy to look at like somebody you love and be like, "You could do anything you want to do." But when we look in the mirror at ourselves, we're like, "Who am I? Who am I to do this?"

• 51:21Tom Bilyeu?

  How do you do it then?

• 51:22Speaker 01

  For me, motherhood again has been a game changer in that because I look at my daughter and I'm like, "What kind of life do I want her to have? Or what kind, what kind of things do I want her to believe to be true?"

• 51:33Tom Bilyeu?

  And you want to prove it?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  I want to flip the mirror and be like, do I, like, so I'll look at her and be like, "Gosh, you are so beautiful." And like, I love every little, like, she's getting these little golden leg hairs. And I just, I think they're like, when they glisten in the sun, I'm just like this, "Oh, her body is just this miracle." And then I'm like, and yet I just spent like 20 minutes trying to like hack off my leg hair. Why do I not believe the same things for me? I do now, but I didn't always. And I think a lot of people are in that place where they're like, "Who am I to do this? Who am I?"

• 52:06Tom Bilyeu?

  What do you cling to? Like, is that, is, because I know you're a person of faith. You grab on to "God made me and therefore I should be okay with myself." Like, what's your anchor?

• 52:15Speaker 01

  I was thinking about it this morning, actually, when I was getting ready because I did an interview yesterday and someone brought up my body and it's something I've talked very openly about, like insecurities and things like that. And I was thinking about it.

• 52:27Tom Bilyeu?

  And when you say someone brought up your body, you mean on social?

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Um, no, in an interview, they're like, tell me about your body, you know, because they were trying to give words to my body, which is so funny because I was thinking about it last night and I was like, I don't even really notice my body anymore in a way of like fixation on it. Like, I'm just at home in my body. And so whenever somebody brings it up, I'm like, I'm a very, I have a very average body that I'm working on being stronger and healthier and all these things. Um, and so they brought up my body and I was like, I used to almost want to separate my mind from my body, like my spirit, my soul from my body.

• 53:04Tom Bilyeu?

  Because you were unhappy.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. And because I didn't like what I saw physically, but I loved who I was mentally. And it was like my spirit, soul and body were three different things. And I think I've learned how to come home and like be a whole person, like this is all of me, like I, I am my body, my body is me, we are in this together. And when it comes to confidence, which is something that Lisa talks about so eloquently, is it's not a destination. I don't think somebody just like arrives and you're a confident person. I think you can have confidence a lot of the time, but I think it's like a choice over and over again. It's that redirection. It's like if we think about that meditation,

• 53:48Speaker 01

  it's like noticing a thought and then redirecting, noticing a thought and redirecting. And I think that's where my confidence comes from is getting really good at redirecting and changing my own inner narrative so that I can help other people change theirs. So with my daughter, if she comes to me and says, you know, what is this spot on my body? I'm like, oh, that is your special spot. It makes you so unique. It's beautiful. And then the same way, then I'm challenged as a mom to look in the mirror and be like, that spot on me, it is so unique. It makes you super special. It's fascinating.

• 54:19Tom Bilyeu?

  So interesting. So I definitely think women have a way harder time to deal with this. It's interesting. So you mentioned something earlier about women and I don't remember, oh, you were talking about feelings and like being upset by something and So I read this really interesting tidbit. I haven't gone into it deeply enough to like really say, no, 100% this is true, but it it hit me, it allowed me to predict my wife better. Ooh. And so my whole thing is I love this. Truth is really, so the human mind is a prediction machine. The reason that you should believe things that are true, I would say true and optimistic, is because when you believe things that are true, they allow you to better predict the world.

• 55:02Tom Bilyeu?

  So anyway, the thing that this said was that part of the role that estrogen plays Yeah. is that it makes it okay to sit with an emotion. Ooh. Now, all of a sudden, I was like, oh, my God, my entire life with my wife just made Why did I wait this long to learn this? Yeah, I was like, hold the phone. Yeah. So because Lisa and I will get in these fights over, she'll say something like, you know, what you did just upset me. Yeah. And I'm like, I can't have that. Yeah. So in my twenties, I would try to convince her that she shouldn't have felt that way because I couldn't handle sitting in the, oh, I messed up and I've made this woman that I care about more than myself feel bad, and that feels so bad, I have to change Yes.

• 55:45Tom Bilyeu?

  state. I have to get out of that. I've got to convince her that that doesn't make any sense so that I can get out of this feeling. And so once I understood that like, she can actually, she's more comfortable being uncomfortable. Yep. And for me, it's like, oh, God, like, I can't, I can't do this, like Crawling out of your skin. 100%, like, so Oh, my God, I love this. Now, I don't, I have two pieces that even I'm not sure yet how they fit together. Yeah. But there's, so you've got that where women are just way more comfortable being uncomfortable so they can sit in these feelings, they can have them, they embody their feelings way more. Yeah. But then there are women who make a living speaking to women in the way that you do.

• 56:30Tom Bilyeu?

  When I have them on the show and I go to research them, there is a weird phenomenon that I don't even know if you guys are aware, doesn't happen on the male side. I've never once seen it with guys.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Tell me about it.

• 56:39Tom Bilyeu?

  And that is, when, like, if I were to search for, there's a bunch of people in our space, where only women, if I search their name, in the midst of their interviews, will be people critiquing them.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:52Tom Bilyeu?

  And I'm like, what?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:54Tom Bilyeu?

  Like, that's so, other women, of course.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:56Tom Bilyeu?

  There, there are zero percent guys criti-, in fact, you might see a guy critique your program.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:03Tom Bilyeu?

  But they would never be critiquing you. Whereas other women are like critiquing the woman. It's so weird.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 57:10Tom Bilyeu?

  I don't know if that has anything to do with, like, they're just super comfortable sitting in, I'm annoyed, or judgment, I don't know. I don't know how these two things, but they fired in my brain at the same time as you were talking about it. So going, it came from you talking about being confident, oh, the spot in your body. And I'm thinking, oh, God, you and I both know, you will arm your daughter well, but the world will test that in a way that's just super gnarly.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:39Tom Bilyeu?

  And my question is, so you're laying this amazing foundation to get her to love herself.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:46Tom Bilyeu?

  How will you help her deal with the fact that we are both the shout?

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:50Tom Bilyeu?

  And the echo?

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. In my book, there's a chapter called "The Battlefield of Cuts", and it was about the first time that I realized my leg hair was something that was being made fun of. It was on a school bus, we were going to the zoo of all places, and this little boy was like pointing at my legs. And I, and my family is like a naturally hairy family. I don't know, I blame my grandpa, I don't know. His arm hair is just exceptional. And I remember going home and like begging my parents, like, can I please use a razor? I was eight years old.

• 58:23Tom Bilyeu?

  Whoa.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Eight. And my parents were like, no, that is too young, and they knew, like, once you start, you can't really stop, so like, don't go down that path. Well, I did it anyways. And I remember a few nights later, I'd fallen asleep on the couch between my mom and dad, and they were rubbing my body, just like relaxing me, and all of a sudden I could like feel the prickly, like they knew I had gone against their wishes. And the next day, we had one of those, we have to have a talk. And, uh, you know, they were disappointed that I didn't listen to them, but I think my mom had this empathy of like, here's what it means to be a woman. Like, I just don't want you to hit this so young. And it's so interesting, cause it's like,

• 59:10Speaker 01

  I always think about, so I'm a Christian and I remember, um, having my daughter and there was a story that actually got cut from the book and it's like one of my favorite stories, but it, just in the cutting process, it didn't make it. But, um, one morning she was two, I went into her room, unzipped her from her little sleep sack. And Drew is a very neat freak, like he is super tidy. And so they're always cleaning things together. And I saw her lick her finger and try to wipe off her mole. And I was like, what are you doing? She was like, dirt, dirt. And I was like, that's not dirt. That's like, that makes you you. It's so, it's your special spot. And I thought I was gonna have this profound moment with her, you know, teaching her all about to love her body and all these things. And she was ready for breakfast. And so I was like, well, there goes that parenting moment.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  And the next day I go in and I unzip her again, say, good morning, honey. And I watch her kiss it. Wow. And I realized how powerful messaging is. Wow. And then she grabbed my arm and kissed my special spot. And this is now a year and a half later, she still does it. She still kisses it. And I realized like, if I can be the voice that like reframes the dirt to something beautiful, and if it could happen in a 24 hour time period for a little impressionable mind, how can we help the messaging change?

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  And how can we be louder? Because the world is so loud. Even being in LA, it feels different to me. The pressure feels different. I don't know what it is because, you know, we live in small town, Minnesota.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  And it's a, it's just a, it's a different culture. You guys would just die laughing at the way we dress because it's so freaking cold. Where it's like you just put layer upon layer upon layer upon layer. And, and you don't, nobody really focuses on what you look like. And it's not really, it's not, it doesn't, it's not the same pressure.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  And so I actually love living outside. I don't think I would do well in a culture like this because I don't often spend much time thinking about how I look. I record my podcast in a closet. I don't, I don't even have video turned on because it's not about how I look. For me, making the biggest impact is using my voice, whether it's in a book, whether it's on my show. It's, it's not at all about what I look like. And when I think about this next generation coming up and just like the pressure to like stay young and thin and all of these things. It's like my kids are watching me and if I can make an impact in my home first, that can make a bigger impact in the world.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  My daughter never likes to wear clothes. And so she's like always running around in her underwear. And I don't ever want it to stop because I, the moment that she feels shame about her body, starts that path that like led me to shaving my legs at eight years old. And so it is, it's fascinating, but it, you're right. There are so many times where I hold a candle up or think about my male peers in the industry and think, have they ever felt this way? Or have they ever had to deal with it? I was with Ed Mylett.

• 1:02:21Tom Bilyeu?

  Something else.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's totally different. And like I had an interview yesterday and I like had to pump because I am feeding a baby at home while I'm even here. I'm like, I'm never not a mom. And I was like, no man has ever had to think in terms of like three hour time segments about like how they're going to do this. And so it's, it's fascinating. It brings up new challenges, but it also is so different from what you guys deal with.

• 1:02:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, it's very different.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:46Tom Bilyeu?

  And the key is getting those tools to deal with it. Like figuring out, okay, you know, how am I gonna process this? And I think understanding the other side is incredibly useful as well.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:59Tom Bilyeu?

  And I'm curious, so how do you deal with that? So I've become obsessed with this idea that I used to say, be the shout, not the echo.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Tom Bilyeu?

  And now I realize, no matter what, we're all the shout and the echo. So you put yourself out there as the shout, you do you, whatever that is. But it's gonna come back. And it's gonna come back, some people like it, some people hate it, whatever. But as a human, you don't, you don't get to, meaning everybody, like even Elon Musk, who I really hold up as like, I don't admire people like that.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:30Tom Bilyeu?

  But I fucking admire this guy, like in, in a way that is just, I wish, right? I wish I had a mind that works like that, even though he advises people against it. But there was, there's this video where some of the most famous astronauts in the world basically were condemning private space companies. And he cried, and he was just like, that's really hard to hear from your heroes. And I wanna know, like, when the echo comes back, even though you've done all the shavasanas and, you know, you've worked to like, get where you're going, when the echo comes back and it's not kind or generous or allowing for grace or whatever, how do you stay steady?

• 1:04:14Tom Bilyeu?

  How do you remain you and not just bend to the echo?

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  I wish that I had like a one-step process for that, but I think it's really complex. And a lot of it is reframing. And a lot of it is like rewriting the narrative in my head so that their loop doesn't stay on. Their loop is like the passenger in my car, but I'm the driver. They can give their feedback, and I can choose to accept it. I think there's a very big difference between criticism and commentary. Commentary can offer suggestions or ideas or inspiration. Criticism is just straight up mean.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  But for me, my loop that's on is the louder one. It's like, imagine a stereo and like, you're turning the dial up. Like which voices are you letting in and which ones are you turning down?

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  And it's funny to me sometimes because Drew and I went viral years ago because there's a picture of us on a beach together. And someone had said like, how did you, a girl like you, manage to land a guy like him? And he's super fit and his passion is fitness. Like that guy gets so itchy if he doesn't get in a full workout. Like, I am not like that. I've never been like that. You and me both. Oh, my gosh. So it was hilarious because in that picture, I thought I looked great. And so that comment came out and I was like, what are you talking about? I think I look fabulous in that photo. Like, that swimsuit is.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  And so it's funny because conversations happen about my body because I'm very open about it. But when I post photos, it's because I'm proud of myself. And it's because I'm proud that that shout isn't even a part of my processing anymore. And so especially with women, it's so, I mean, you could probably, well, actually, I'm curious as a man. Could you repeat some of the nasty things that you've heard about yourself verbatim? Like, you remember word for word what somebody has said to you, or do you not? No. So I think women, you could ask most women, like, just tell me some of the things that have been said about you.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  And we could probably verbatim tell you the mean things. But we probably couldn't put words to the kind things or the good things or the beautiful things. And it's actually proven that our brains like focus on the negative because it could include tips on how we could improve or do better or whatever. It's like we're wired to fixate on that stuff neurologically. But the problem is, is like when we just let that be the thing and we don't try to self-correct. And so I often think about like, is the world's criticism and feedback my Garmin, my GPS, if we still had those suckers? Or is it just the passenger that's chatting away? And I can just turn the dial down on the stereo?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  And that's what I've gotten really good at.

• 1:07:20Tom Bilyeu?

  Very wise. Jenna, the book's phenomenal. Where can people follow along with you? What's the right way to connect?

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Jenna Kutcher, online, like Ashton, although we are not related. And the book is How Are You Really? And I am, I've never worked so hard on one project in my life.

• 1:07:39Tom Bilyeu?

  I can imagine.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Especially as a digital creator who can like dream, create, produce, publish within like a day. Like, slow progress is still progress. And I'm just so excited that it is out into the world and can make the impact that I dreamt it would.

• 1:07:57Tom Bilyeu?

  It's incredible. Congratulations.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thanks for having me.

• 1:08:00Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, man. What a pleasure.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  I love you.

• 1:08:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Guys, she's an incredible human who I have had the good fortune of getting to know on camera, off camera. The book is amazing. I highly encourage you guys to check it out. I think it's one of the most important questions we can ask ourselves is are we really happy where we're at? And if not, we should make a change. And in the book, she walks you through how to get in touch with that and how to figure out a path forward. And speaking of things that will help you develop a path forward, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace. Let's talk about a pattern that is guaranteed to be killing your progress. You know what you need to do. You need consistent nutrition. We all do. You need vitamins, probiotics, greens. We all know that we should be doing more of it. When your morning gets chaotic, you skip it.

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