Priya Parker: Fight With Your Friends! (Part 1)

Are we optimizing the joy out of our friendships? In Part 1, conflict resolution expert and author Priya Parker joins Trevor and Eugene to explain why your closest relationships actually need a good fight, and how inconveniencing the people you love is the surest way to build intimacy.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  We don't need each other enough.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  We don't need each other enough. We actually need each other desperately.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  But if we out in, we no longer need to want to think we should inconvenience each other. And actually inconveniencing each other is intimacy.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  I've never been to a wedding.

• 0:19Trevor Noah?

  You've never been to a wedding?

• 0:20Speaker 00

  No.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  What?

• 0:20Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow. Look at, I never thought I'd say this to somebody. I've been to one.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  Only one? Oh, don't say that to me when you've never been to a wedding.

• 0:27Trevor Noah?

  It's amazing to me how romantic or otherwise, when people have the breakup, it is the most constructive moment ever.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:37Trevor Noah?

  By the way, your favorite shirt is one of the ugliest things I've ever seen in my life. Also, that thing you do when you're sleeping, that's not sexy. Oh, and another thing, your mom, she's weird. She's weird, man. I don't want to say it, but she's weird. And everyone lets all of these things out. And then you go like, actually, do you want to go get a drink now? Do you want to?

• 1:00Speaker 01

  I feel better. I feel better. Yeah.

• 1:09Trevor Noah?

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• 1:55Trevor Noah?

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• 2:40Trevor Noah?

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• 2:56Trevor Noah?

  Anyone who is so interested that they would fly out a horse psychic. Anyone who will fly out a horse psychic will listen to what a horse psychic says.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  What are the horses like? I don't like bareback.

• 3:08Trevor Noah?

  It's 100% that. Anyone who's gonna fly out a horse psychic is gonna do what a horse psychic says.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to.

• 3:16Trevor Noah?

  100%. I have no interest whatsoever. Unsubscribe me ahead of time.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Ah, my Trevor, you can't just be close-minded like that in life.

• 3:27Trevor Noah?

  I'm not being close-minded.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  Exactly. So, listen to it with me.

• 3:30Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I'll watch it with you.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 3:34Trevor Noah?

  I'll watch it with you, but I'm not interested, dude.

• 3:36Speaker 00

  You know, which ones?

• 3:37Trevor Noah?

  I'm not interested in a horse psychic.

• 3:38Speaker 00

  I've just followed, I've just followed two, two accounts now of these people who take goats. So, let's say there's a, there's a ranch or an estate.

• 3:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  And then the weeds are growing out of control.

• 3:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  And then they obviously don't want to use lawn mowers.

• 3:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  Then they bring in goats.

• 3:55Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you see, I'm in for that now.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Man, I spent three hours watching that.

• 3:58Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm down for that.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  I found two accounts that show you the before.

• 4:01Trevor Noah?

  Goat, goat mowing videos.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Yes!

• 4:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I'm down for that.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  You've seen them?

• 4:04Trevor Noah?

  Um, no, but I'm down.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 4:06Trevor Noah?

  I'm in, I'm in.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, then the goats get out and then they like jump out.

• 4:09Trevor Noah?

  That's like bioengineering. I'm in.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:12Trevor Noah?

  I'm totally down for that.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  There's a sheepdog, which is supposed to be a goat dog, but as a koala. Then it just carales them and.

• 4:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you see, I'm, this is great. I'm in for that. My man, I'm not gonna watch videos of a horse psychic.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 4:29Trevor Noah?

  First of all, I don't understand how you're a psychic if the horse is alive.

• 4:35Trevor Noah?

  Let's start with that. Because technically, you're just a translator now.

• 4:42Trevor Noah?

  But secondly,

• 4:45Trevor Noah?

  secondly, I'm just like.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  You see, you're right.

• 4:48Trevor Noah?

  Come on, man.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Is there nothing that a horse can tell you that you'd want to hear? Because you tried horse riding at some point, no?

• 4:58Trevor Noah?

  I've tried it a few times.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Is there nothing about a horse?

• 5:01Trevor Noah?

  No, I think horses are fantastic and interesting creatures. But I don't think I'm losing much by not having them in my life.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  I think there's two animals that I think are not, should be held accountable for sins of their forefathers.

• 5:16Trevor Noah?

  Dogs?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  German Shepherds?

• 5:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, German Shepherds.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Specifically?

• 5:18Trevor Noah?

  Hey, German Shepherds have been in the.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  Yes, the wrong side of history.

• 5:22Trevor Noah?

  Been, been, been.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  And horses.

• 5:24Trevor Noah?

  There's no, if there's a picture, a black and white picture, that involves a German Shepherd, it also involves an oppressed person.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:31Trevor Noah?

  That dog has been.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:33Trevor Noah?

  At the forefront of oppression.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:35Trevor Noah?

  Like everywhere in the world.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:38Trevor Noah?

  German Shepherds and water hoses, like this.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Like this, no?

• 5:42Trevor Noah?

  Like this. So, I'm with you on that.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  So, German Shepherds?

• 5:46Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  And horses?

• 5:48Trevor Noah?

  At puppy training, not only should they teach German Shepherds how to sit, how to, how to, you know, stay, all those things, they should also teach them about what their ancestors did.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:59Trevor Noah?

  Just so that they don't repeat those things.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Yes, because apparently it's in them.

• 6:02Trevor Noah?

  Sit, stay, reparations, good boy. Just a little bit of that.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Is it okay, though?

• 6:16Trevor Noah?

  What is the other animal? German Shepherds and?

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Horses.

• 6:20Trevor Noah?

  No, I don't agree. Go, say more. Why horses?

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Thank you for asking that question.

• 6:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  Because I thought you wouldn't ask me. But why do I think horses?

• 6:26Trevor Noah?

  No, I want to know. I want to know why.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Anywhere in history.

• 6:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Where terrible things were happening.

• 6:31Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Horse was involved.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  I hear you, but the horse was there during Napoleonic era?

• 6:38Trevor Noah?

  Yes, I hear you.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Alexander the Great?

• 6:39Trevor Noah?

  Yes, I hear you.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Chinggis Khan, the horse was there?

• 6:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. I like how you say his name the real way.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Yes. The horse was there during apartheid?

• 6:47Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  The horse was there?

• 6:49Trevor Noah?

  Yes, civil rights movement, yes.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  And what the horse did was never take Jesus to anywhere. Because Jesus took a donkey, but that animal never got its due respect.

• 6:59Trevor Noah?

  That is true.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  At the horse, you know, at the fourth warhorse. There's even a movie.

• 7:04Trevor Noah?

  Okay, now in defend, now I'll say in defense of horses.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  Oh, now you like horses?

• 7:09Trevor Noah?

  I, I have nothing against them.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  So, why are you defending them then?

• 7:12Trevor Noah?

  No, because I'm, I like to be a fair person.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  In life or now?

• 7:16Trevor Noah?

  In life in general. I would hope people extend the same fairness to me that I would extend to them. So, in defense of horses, this is what I'll say. Horses.

• 7:24Speaker 00

  This better be good, yes?

• 7:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, horses.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  You were not so gracious with German Shepherds.

• 7:28Trevor Noah?

  I'll tell you why. Horses are a mode of transportation, but they don't, they're not in, they're not participating in the action. You, you won't find me a single image of a horse that was biting a black person in like any struggle anywhere in the world.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  No, they do.

• 7:45Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no, no, no.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  The ones that, um, those, um, furry hat-wearing guards in the UK Buckingham Palace? Have you seen when people try to pet them?

• 7:54Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but that's different. Those people are not being oppressed. Those people are assholes.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, true.

• 7:58Trevor Noah?

  The horse is just standing there minding its own business and then people come and pet it. So, that's different.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  The horse don't like being petted.

• 8:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but what I'm saying is, guys, personal space. Well, how would you feel if a horse came and petted you?

• 8:07Speaker 00

  There's already someone wearing a red uniform on top of it.

• 8:10Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but still, why are you coming?

• 8:11Speaker 00

  Ah, whatever. No, no.

• 8:13Trevor Noah?

  Okay, let's, imagine if that horse was a car and someone was coming and touching your car.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  The car wouldn't bite you back.

• 8:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the alarm would go off.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  True.

• 8:20Trevor Noah?

  So, I'm arguing that's just a horse alarm. What I'm saying is, I agree with you with German Shepherds because they participated.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  Willingly.

• 8:28Trevor Noah?

  Ah, my man.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  They were born hateful. They were born racist.

• 8:31Trevor Noah?

  Eugene, everyone must be willing to at least take accountability for their participation in something, even if you were raised that way. I'm not saying you are a bad person. I'm saying I'm giving you room to grow. But I'm saying if you, as Eugene, say, look, my parents raised me this way, that's why I am XYZ. But you must also be willing to be held accountable. You can't be like, yeah, no, I, I kept people as slaves in my basement, but that's all I knew growing up. It's like, yeah, but you also knew another world. So, I'm just saying you should be able to atone. But horses, in my opinion, are just a mode of transportation. The horses didn't actively do the thing.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  But they outperformed everyone who was trying to hurt other people. Because clearly, they tried other animals.

• 9:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but they were even being whipped while doing it.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Tickled.

• 9:16Trevor Noah?

  They put a thing inside their mouth, they yanked them, they whipped them. I, if, if, if we were in like, if we're at the Hague, I'm not voting against the horses. German Shepherds, on the other hand.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  What?

• 9:29Trevor Noah?

  Thousand, I'm 1000% with you.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  What do you think it is about the personality of a German Shepherd that got it chosen to be a tool of brutality? Because they must have tried others. Because even the wolf didn't get that job.

• 9:41Trevor Noah?

  That's actually a good question.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  Hyena never won that audition.

• 9:44Trevor Noah?

  It would be weird being oppressed by a hyena.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:48Trevor Noah?

  Because now.

• 9:50Trevor Noah?

  It's just like, it's like a jolly creature. Imagine you there, you busy fighting for freedom. We shall overcome there, there like. You're like, ah dude, uh uh, uh uh, no, no, no, no. It's one thing to bite me, it's another thing to laugh at me. Like, I think hyenas couldn't, you couldn't do that.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  But I think there's some species of dogs that get too many passes.

• 10:14Trevor Noah?

  Like who?

• 10:15Speaker 00

  Labradors, but also the segregation in the Labrador world.

• 10:18Trevor Noah?

  What do Labradors do?

• 10:19Speaker 00

  There's three types of Labrador, do you know that?

• 10:20Trevor Noah?

  I didn't know this.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  There's the blonde ones, and then there's brown ones, then there's black ones. But the blonde ones, you're always being cast in everything.

• 10:32Trevor Noah?

  Oh, but this is not in between Labradors. You're saying this is like how the media portrays them?

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, but if the media has people's houses as well.

• 10:39Trevor Noah?

  Okay, no, no, no, that I can understand. I thought you were saying like amongst Labradors, there's like Labrador racism. I was like, damn.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  I think there might be.

• 10:45Trevor Noah?

  You just dropped a bombshell on me.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Look, if, if all you know as a Labrador that's like five years old was other blonde Labradors, and then one, one day you bump into a brown Labrador.

• 10:54Trevor Noah?

  I don't know, man.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  You think it's gonna be normal for that Labrador?

• 10:59Speaker 00

  That was in Manhattan for five years, never bumped into a brown Labrador before. And then that Labrador and the owner are walking in the pavement, and then on the other side, a brown Labrador is approaching. And then the other Labrador looks at the owner and goes, let's cross the road. But do dogs see color?

• 11:17Speaker 03

  I'm looking it up.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  They do?

• 11:20Speaker 03

  I'm looking it up.

• 11:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, please.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  Do dogs see color, Jess?

• 11:23Trevor Noah?

  Cause that's what I wanna know.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Well, according to a very cursory Google search, yes, dogs can see color, but their color vision is much more limited than ours.

• 11:31Trevor Noah?

  Oh, so they can definitely see black dogs then?

• 11:35Trevor Noah?

  Cause if you have limited color, you just have enough to be racist. You're like, look, look, look. I don't need to learn the difference between teal and lilac, but black and white, hey.

• 11:51Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Oh, fuck.

• 11:54Speaker 03

  Here are some visible colors.

• 11:57Trevor Noah?

  What's that, Jess?

• 11:58Speaker 03

  Here are some visible colors to dogs. Dogs easily see shades of blue, yellow, gray, wait for it, brown and white.

• 12:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, there you, you were right. No, you were right, okay, I'm with you.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Because I want everyone who owns a blonde Labrador to just buy a brown or black Labrador and see how.

• 12:17Trevor Noah?

  How they interact with each other.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Their blonde Labrador would react and what they would say. And then bring that kid Whisperer to talk to the dog and ask him about how he feels about.

• 12:26Trevor Noah?

  And that kid comes and like, I only speak to horses, guys, I don't know. Are you crazy? You think you can just be a psychic for every animal? What kind of world do you guys live in? What kind of world do you guys live in? Yo, um, so today's guest is here, um, fascinating, fascinating topic. Especially in today's world, but essentially, she advocates for fighting.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Physical fighting?

• 12:52Trevor Noah?

  I don't think physical, but we can ask. Maybe physical is part of it.

• 12:57Trevor Noah?

  But essentially, like, her argument is, fighting is good and we need to like, learn how to fight more. I'm, I hope I'm not butchering all of it, and obviously we'll, we'll clarify where she's coming from. But like, do you think you fight enough in your life?

• 13:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I'm learning to fight more.

• 13:14Trevor Noah?

  With like people in general?

• 13:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:16Trevor Noah?

  Oh, hello, hello, hello. How you doing? How you doing? Hi, how are you? Hey, how are you?

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you so much.

• 13:21Trevor Noah?

  Oh, this is amazing, thank you very much, thank you so much.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  There's an answer in there about the physical fighting.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  There is?

• 13:26Trevor Noah?

  There is. Let's go, Priya, let's do this. The transformative power of conflict. I love that as an idea.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love it too.

• 13:35Trevor Noah?

  You know why? Because like, if it's fighting, it seems like you're like, um, primitive. Once you say conflict.

• 13:44Trevor Noah?

  Conflict is like the polished version of fighting.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, when you say fighting, you see a club, you see a fist.

• 13:49Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  But when you say conflict, you see a debate.

• 13:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, there was a bar fight, these guys were fighting at the bar. There was a conflict at the alcoholic establishment, you see now.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  You're so right.

• 14:01Trevor Noah?

  This is essentially the world, but welcome, how are you?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  I'm so great.

• 14:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, how you doing?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  I'm so happy to be here.

• 14:06Trevor Noah?

  So when was the last time you, uh, had a, a conflict? What's going on, Brett, what are you doing here? Oh, you want a conflict with that mic?

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Love your top.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

• 14:22Trevor Noah?

  Where did you come in from, by the way?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I live in Brooklyn.

• 14:24Trevor Noah?

  Oh, nice, okay, nice little commute.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, the little, I, I dropped off, uh, I, I, I dropped, I have a, this is an Indian designer. Her name is Ruchika Sachdevanis Boddhis. And I, I go to India every three years with my family and my kids, my husband's Indian American, and we often, I often shop there and like will get my Indian fix. And so I was dropping off a kurtha that was not working to a friend in Tribeca who's going to India. So I came here via Tribeca, you know, the international drops.

• 14:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but what do you mean it's not working? We do know those, we're responsible for them.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  You're like, I mean, it's literally like, can you bring, exactly, can you bring my like, dark brown L'Oréal Plenitude eyeliner in your suitcase?

• 15:04Trevor Noah?

  I'm so glad you brought this up. This is the first point of contention, we, can we deal with this conflict?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yes, diasporic community.

• 15:12Trevor Noah?

  Yo.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  What your friend is willing to bring you in a suitcase.

• 15:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  It's a big deal, this is a missing, right?

• 15:18Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you something.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:19Trevor Noah?

  People do not understand the burden that immigrants bear everywhere in the world.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:23Trevor Noah?

  When they travel.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 15:25Trevor Noah?

  When they travel, there is nothing, everyone knows where you're going, and then everyone has a request.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  And the request is like, can you please bring extra crunchy peanut butter Jif in your suitcase?

• 15:33Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  It's not like, large, you know, important things. Oh, absolutely, in the eighties in India, I, my, so many of us, I'm Indian American, every summer I'd get dropped off in Delhi with my family, um, with my cousins, and there was always the suitcase that I would like take, and then there'd be the suitcase full of like, Reese's Cocoa Buff cereal and Jif peanut butter. Yes, because basically like you bring your, you bring your Indian cousins the American good stuff.

• 16:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  And you're like, suitcase is full of this stuff, and we all did it.

• 16:06Trevor Noah?

  What was the number one thing you had to bring them?

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Jif peanut butter.

• 16:09Trevor Noah?

  It was the peanut butter, and then wait, but what was the thing you had to bring back? Because that's the, that's the other side of the transaction people forget.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  That's so good, that's so good.

• 16:16Trevor Noah?

  There's all the immigrants on this side of the world.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Who are going, yo.

• 16:18Trevor Noah?

  Who are like, yo, bring me back something you can't get here.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  I mean, the, the broad word is like numkeen, so basically food. So numkeen is like salt, salty, or like Indian snacks, Haldi Ramas.

• 16:28Trevor Noah?

  Oh, those like, um, they like nuts and.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, nuts, all sorts of different things.

• 16:31Trevor Noah?

  Prissly biscuity type things.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Biscuit or like, just like, um, all sorts of basically dry snacks you would put in a bowl.

• 16:38Trevor Noah?

  Okay, yes, yes.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Now you can get here, nibbles, nibbles.

• 16:41Trevor Noah?

  They're like crunchy, crunchy, spicy ones sometimes.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  That make you wanna lick your fingers as well.

• 16:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, those are the ones, those are the ones.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Ompa-pper, that was big, like dried mango. I would always like the last, the last day before. My mother's an anthropologist and she would drop me off in India partly to make sure that I was still Indian and partly because it was she babysitting.

• 16:59Trevor Noah?

  I'm loving this, I'm loving this idea that your mom was like, I'm not sure.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  I'm married, I'm married to a white man, I live in America, and so for like four to eight weeks a year, I'm gonna make sure that my Indian child is with her cousins.

• 17:12Trevor Noah?

  Did you actually transform in that period? Because I feel like there are two kinds of kids who experienced that in their lives. There's kids who got dropped off, and then by the end of that little vacation, were like sort of back to being Indian or Tassau or whatever they are. And then the other ones who were just like holding on to their American-ness for as long as possible.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  They were the American cousin in India.

• 17:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, they were like counting down, they were just like, oh my god, oh my god.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 17:36Trevor Noah?

  So which one were you?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  I think, I mean, you sort of have to ask them, but I, I was definitely the Indian American cousin with the American accent. You know, I, my Hindi was like terrible, and, but you just kind of, I don't know, get en- enveloped, enveloped. And so everything from, I was probably speaking slightly differently, but everyone, I mean, it's a colonized country, so people were speaking in English in the home. Um, but I was sort of, I think I was definitely more Indian. I would sort of come back and like all of my friends had been to summer camp or all these things. And I was like, sitting on a bed with my grandparents playing like cards for three months.

• 18:12Trevor Noah?

  I'm loving this, just like this American kid, I'm picturing you there at home, just being like, Akabal brots under here.

• 18:23Trevor Noah?

  Just enjoying.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Totally, I mean, it's just like so many things, but part of, part of going, going is, that was the time where I would just like, it's not, like, I didn't see India. I saw like the inside of my grandparents' homes.

• 18:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, we all did that.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 18:37Trevor Noah?

  It's the same story, yeah, we all did that.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  It's the same thing, and so I think so much, my, my husband's Indian American, and he, his first book was called India Calling, and he wrote about, in a paragraph in that book, about how we all took jars of peanut butter, and like, so many Indian Americans like cried out of recognition. Like, you also took peanut butter? And it's like, yeah, of course, everyone wanted peanut butter. And now they have, you know, now the market's open, all this stuff.

• 19:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  But there's such an intimacy in bringing the small, you know, the small little thing, the little treat.

• 19:05Trevor Noah?

  Are you a little sad that now there's peanut butter that's, cause I feel like you, your value diminishes.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  It goes down, now they can get everything.

• 19:12Trevor Noah?

  Cause I don't know, so this is how I feel, I hate it when my friends ask me to bring them stuff from America. I hate it, but then when it's available in South Africa, I get sad.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Your status goes down.

• 19:23Trevor Noah?

  It's not even status, it's more like, I like, I like that I have this like, I like that they, that they need me to get this thing, and I like that I get to be curmudgeonly about it.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yes, there's an intimacy in that transaction.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Yes, you know what it was at first? It was those, um, dental floss, banjo looking slash toothpick.

• 19:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, wait, like the one with the little thing in between, it's like one little, it's like it's made out of recycling. It's like, that can't be a good one anymore.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  There's four hundred of those in a box, I think it's probably not great.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, those for a long time were not available, yes.

• 20:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we didn't have those.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, either went for the, for the, for the murder of floss.

• 20:04Trevor Noah?

  Dude.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  Or, or you had the, the wooden toothpick, right?

• 20:09Trevor Noah?

  That's what you had.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  And then upgrade.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  And then this move, like.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, this move, this, this old people move, yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:15Speaker 00

  And now you, when you brought those, you were, you were the man.

• 20:17Trevor Noah?

  Ah, you were out of this world.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, when I came to your house and another available, and I'm like, now I'm like, I don't need you in my life anymore.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:23Trevor Noah?

  The craziest thing I had to bring back for somebody was, they asked me to bring them a, an electric toilet brush.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  No, man.

• 20:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, Alyssa asked me to bring him.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  An electric toilet brush.

• 20:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  It's not available on Amazon.

• 20:38Trevor Noah?

  In South Africa it wasn't.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  But also, I don't know if I want an electric toilet.

• 20:42Trevor Noah?

  He, he did, he was like, yo, please can you help? And you know, it's always like the usual request, hey dude, uh, when you're coming back, can you grab this for me? Hey dude, can you, and every time I'd be like, whatever, whatever. And then I think, as the things became available in South Africa, I think he was like, I need to find a thing that's not available in South Africa. And so he ended up at electric tooth, like at the toilet brush, so you, you pull it, and then you like press a button, it's like.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  That's all it does.

• 21:06Trevor Noah?

  That's all it does.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  You know what I hate about people asking me to bring stuff is mentally I always leave it to the last minute.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Like getting it, procuring it.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, then I'm in panic now on the last day.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  You're the floss mule.

• 21:21Trevor Noah?

  You're good.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  I mean, the whole reason this came up is on the way to the studio. I found my like silk, my silk kurtta mule.

• 21:31Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  And I found her and I, and she totally gets it. I literally.

• 21:34Trevor Noah?

  But what does she need to do with it? What?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Well, she, I, I have this beautiful kurtta that I realized I wasn't working and I, I, you know, texted the designer and she was like, don't send it through customs. I'm like, I don't, it, I mean, I don't, I'm happy to spend the money. She's like, no, no, no, it'll get stuck at customs.

• 21:50Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  And so, and so she said, can you send it with someone? And you know, I mean, Indians, it's like, okay, who do I know?

• 21:56Trevor Noah?

  Who's going?

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Who do I know is going? Who's the most likely person in the next three weeks? So I texted my friend, Shruti. I was like, Shruti, any way you can get this to Delhi? And she's like, no, but I'm going to this place and then I'll hand it over to this person.

• 22:07Trevor Noah?

  I love it. Here we go.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  And there's an intimacy in it.

• 22:09Trevor Noah?

  It turns into a Guy Ritchie movie now. That's where, that's when it's my favorite.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  So it's gonna exchange hands?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yes, it's gonna exchange hands. Now I'm gonna get in trouble because I'm announcing on, uh, whatever.

• 22:19Trevor Noah?

  Do you know my favors? That one kurtta is going together.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yes, but honestly, it makes me feel closer to her.

• 22:25Trevor Noah?

  Wait, you know that your friend, what's the name again?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Shruti.

• 22:27Trevor Noah?

  Shruti is gonna ask someone.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Oh, I know who she's gonna ask.

• 22:31Trevor Noah?

  And that person's gonna be like.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yes, but also like, she is so happy to receive it, but also slightly annoyed, but that's the intimacy. Like, that's the intimacy of friendship.

• 22:41Trevor Noah?

  Yes, it is.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  I'm willing to do this. I'm gonna meet you at this place. I went to this restaurant, you know, she's meeting somebody in traffic. I pass it to her.

• 22:47Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Then she's, and then she's talking about it. So then I text, I text the, the woman who's like, stored is, and then she's like, oh, wait, Shruti. And she says her last name. I'm like, yeah. She's like, yeah, I know her, which is also like, yes. And so she's gonna give it to her brother here and then hopefully, but he has to go to two other countries on the way. So he's gonna take my little red kurtta. But it's so beautiful.

• 23:07Trevor Noah?

  I love it.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  It's so beautiful. What in modern life, we don't need each other anymore.

• 23:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's why I love it.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  And so the specificity of an ask, we don't need each other enough. We actually need each other desperately.

• 23:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  But if we out, in, we no longer need to want to think we should inconvenience each other. And actually inconveniencing each other is intimacy.

• 23:28Trevor Noah?

  This guy loves inconveniencing me. He loves.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  But I love giving a warning if this is gonna be an inconvenience or not.

• 23:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but he loves inconveniencing me.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Okay, give me an example.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  I will be, I'll be there.

• 23:39Trevor Noah?

  I mean, the other day, he made us go to a supermarket to go and buy like all the ingredients needed for what we call a bribe, like a barbecue, but like the charcoal and the meat and the sauces and the whatnot. And I was like, we don't need to go and get it. We could get, and he's like, no, please, let's go and get it.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Wise guy.

• 23:57Trevor Noah?

  Let's go. And it's like, ah, boy. And I tell him, I'm like, I, I just say yes, because I know it's good, but I'm not happy.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  But you seem a little happy.

• 24:06Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  You're speaking with a lot of.

• 24:08Trevor Noah?

  No, I understand.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Love underneath this.

• 24:10Trevor Noah?

  Here's the thing, I understand.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 24:14Trevor Noah?

  I understand that things I may not initially enjoy the idea of can be beneficial to me in my life.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 24:20Trevor Noah?

  So when he says things like that, I'll be like, I'm not happy, but I'll do it.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 24:26Trevor Noah?

  And I also tell him, I'm not like, it's not like I'm doing him a favor. I'm like, all right, I'll do it.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:30Trevor Noah?

  And so we do it. So he inconveniences me, inconveni, and then I'll inconvenience him. The other day I asked him to go and he had to take my electric car back from the airport. He has trauma about driving electric cars.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  What happened?

• 24:42Trevor Noah?

  He's always afraid that the car will run out of electricity.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  I understand, I understand.

• 24:47Trevor Noah?

  And then, because it has been for on him. He had my car before, couldn't charge it anywhere.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Bought four apps, charging apps, went to different four places, nothing. All those charging stations were not working. I went to the dealership one, they gave me a small little cable.

• 25:04Trevor Noah?

  No, nothing.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  I was there for four hours.

• 25:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, it doesn't move anything.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Nothing, nothing, nothing.

• 25:08Trevor Noah?

  And then at some point you're phoning for help and then it's a call center in India. It's that same person that you sent the kurtta to.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  The charger doesn't work.

• 25:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, in South Africa. And then you're like, wait, what?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:19Trevor Noah?

  That was when I discovered that all our charging companies use the call center in India to deal. Because I, the first time it happened to me, because it happened to you as well.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:27Trevor Noah?

  But the first time it happened to me, I was like, wait, this is a thing. And then, but I like it. It's the, it's the inconvenience and the conflict. I think I understand you and your work a little bit better now because of like your world.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, inconvenience as an element in friendship is something that we should not, let go of. And, and inconvenience, I mean, people no longer host gatherings. My first book was called The Art of Gathering, because it's, I don't wanna, I mean, not only is it inconvenient for me, I don't want to inconvenience you.

• 26:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, nobody wants to inconvenience.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  By interrupting your schedule or by assuming you might want to come to my home.

• 26:05Trevor Noah?

  By the way, even, even interrupting people's dietary requirements.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  I know, yes.

• 26:10Trevor Noah?

  I, I took for granted how much of a thing that now has become.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  It really is. That we have basically, uh, made convenience and then individual agency, privacy, use of our own time. I mean, so much of what you all are talking about is you're willing to sacrifice how you would ideally spend your time.

• 26:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  By going to the grocery store.

• 26:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Right? And so part, and, and the art of fighting is actually like, one of the reasons people are falling out of community with each other is because they don't wanna inconvenience thems, each other, by even the labor of a fight. I don't wanna inconvenience you that you hurt my feelings. If I'm unwilling to inconvenience you by just saying, do you wanna hang out or do you wanna come over or will you do me a favor? Then actually taking something harder like a conversation or a part of your friendship that's not working, it's like we've lost all of our connections to each other. And you are more likely to say something that's upset you if you've gone to the grocery store and you're spending all this time together. But it's all interconnected. Inconveniencing and convenience and convenience as the highest form of good is one of the depths of community.

• 27:17Trevor Noah?

  Don't press anything. We've got more What Now after this.

• 27:27Trevor Noah?

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• 28:07Trevor Noah?

  four for $35. In-store only. Seasonal candles and body care essentials can help with gifting or serve as a well-earned treat for the host. Their standards leave out artificial sweeteners, artificial colors, and high fructose corn syrup, helping the flavors you want stay at the center of the table. Shop Thanksgiving favorites with higher standards at Whole Foods Markets. Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium.

• 28:52Trevor Noah?

  I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watch. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you

• 29:34Trevor Noah?

  like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows. You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick, from Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now? Pain never.

• 30:20Trevor Noah?

  Therapy is one of those things lots of people talk themselves out of without even realizing it. Like it's too expensive or it's too overwhelming figuring out even where you're gonna start. But Rula is one way to make that first step feel a lot more doable, offering accessible, affordable therapy that fits your needs. Sign up in just a few minutes and get matched with a therapist who fits what you're looking for. Need to talk to someone quickly? Appointments are often available as soon as the next day. And with insurance, sessions average around a $15 copay. You can also see estimated costs upfront, so there's a lot more clarity going in. And in terms of outcomes, 93% of Rula patients report symptom

• 31:04Trevor Noah?

  improvement. If therapy's been sitting in the back of your mind, Rula is a pretty simple way to take that first step. So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com. That's R-U-L-A dot com to find a therapist the easy way.

• 31:27Trevor Noah?

  Some of the best conflict I had in my life in the recent years was when I was in India.

• 31:34Trevor Noah?

  One of my favorite places to go, we were at like this big dinner and just arguing. And I mean, like just full on arguing, arguing, arguing. And then one of the guys who was there, I think he felt bad because he didn't know that as South Africans, we also love arguing. And then he paused and he's like, Trevor, Trevor, he's like, Trevor, please, I have to apologize to you. Here in India, we don't, we don't, we don't argue because we're angry with each other. We enjoy it. It's bantered. And then I was like, ah, my man, I thought, I was like, you think I was angry? And I think I'm angry right now. I'm having a great time. And he was like, oh, good. This is the same for you. And we, dude, and but I like, I love that thing.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:10Trevor Noah?

  I love the whole, um, you and I talk about this, but like, I don't know what it is, and maybe you can explain it. Like, I love having a moment with another human being where they say, I think the fastest way to get here is using this route or doing it this way. And then I go, no, I disagree with you.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:30Trevor Noah?

  That to me creates, um, yeah, it's not just texture, but it's like, I feel like you find each other where you know where the other ends.

• 32:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

• 32:41Trevor Noah?

  Does that make sense?

• 32:42Speaker 00

  Beautiful.

• 32:43Trevor Noah?

  The outer limits of anyone's perception of any idea.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, like.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  I mean, you were doing that with like arguing about horses.

• 32:51Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yeah, we argue all the time.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  But you're finding where you're, I would say you're finding where each other ends. But actually, part of conversation is you're also seeing if you can expand each other's maps. Right? So if through a conversation, can I be altered? Okay, tell me about the horse or, okay, tell me about the whatever it is. So much of, I mean, the art of fighting at the core, underneath the entire book is one idea, which is we affect each other. We affect each other. And it is really vulnerable to admit that. And the core question in The Art of Fighting, I'm a conflict resolution facilitator, I have been one for 25 years, isn't how do you yell at strangers on the internet?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  The core question of this book is how do you fight with those you want to belong to? And so often, we are conflict averse, we aren't taught to fight well. Conflict is also deeply cultural. So there are some cultures, subcultures, countries that, that can separate the opinion from the person and find that, you know, the argumentative Indian, famous book by Amartya Sen or South Africans. But in modern life, so much of, it's actually very vulnerable to fight with the people you belong to. Because it threatens the relationship or you perceive it to. But it also threatens, it's vulnerable to say, you hurt me or this bothered me. And it's vulnerable to actually accept someone's apology, to say, yeah, that did hurt me. I am, I am going to take that.

• 34:16Trevor Noah?

  A lot of emphasis has been put on giving the apology, not accepting it. I think we're seeing a shift now where accepting it is as hard. Because you have to let go of the idea, like we always say, of your anger and the disposition that you held, you know, about the other person.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:30Trevor Noah?

  That shaped how you see people portraying the same kind of traits. And you start thinking you have a spidey sense of seeing people and betrayal coming a mile away.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, we think of apology as a one-way act, right? Which is I have to, I'm going to give you an apology.

• 34:44Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  But part of the weight is also being willing to accept it. And so often, I mean, I do this with my kids, they're eight and 11 years old. And they'll, you know, one of them may apologize to another and, and we slow it down and try to practice how they apologize. And first of all, the apology, we also don't know how to apologize well. So, you know, like, I'm sorry. It's like, no, no, no, like, I'm sorry you're so sensitive. Like, no, no, no, no, try again.

• 35:10Trevor Noah?

  That's my favorite one.

• 35:12Trevor Noah?

  I'm sorry you were born this way with an extra sensory chip of sensitivity.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  But, but to actually first, actually, one of the books I read for The Art of Fighting is a wonderful book. It's called On Repentance and Repair by, she's a rabbi, Danya Ruttenberg.

• 35:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  And one of the things that she says is in, in the US, we have over-indexed on the Christian notion of forgiveness and apology. And we have under-indexed on the Jewish notion of repair.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  And she basically says that when you only focus on, on apology and forgiveness, it puts too much weight on the person who's been harmed.

• 35:51Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  And in the Jewish laws of repentance, she goes into this 12th century philosopher, Maimonides. And she basically says, before you even apologize, there's five stages. And the first is to be able to just clearly articulate what it is you did.

• 36:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, what did you do?

• 36:07Speaker 01

  What did you do? Just being able to clearly articulate it is actually a radical act. And so with my kids, it's like, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. It's like, no, no, no, hold on, slow down, slow down. What did you do? Acknowledge, what did you do?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  I'm sorry I tore your teddy bear's head off.

• 36:25Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  I did it on purpose.

• 36:29Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  I wanted to hurt you.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  I'm really sorry.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  A full articulation is actually incredibly empowering because you're able to articulate what it is you did. And then the other person can clearly, it's like step four is the apology in this, in this, in the sort of Jewish laws of repentance, as I understand it. To be able to say, I apologize. And then it's their choice if they forgive you or not. But the other side of it, to your point, with my children, it's, it's, you know, my kids will often say like, it's okay. And it's okay is, has two meanings. One is it's okay, don't worry about it. But the other is it's okay, you didn't really hurt me. Right? That's again, like the, you can't touch me.

• 37:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  And so it seems like a quibble, but I often will say like, if you feel ready to actually accept this apology, how about replacing that phrase with thank you?

• 37:26Trevor Noah?

  Which comes first in that universe? Is it repentance or remorse or the other way around? Because I feel like if you're remorseful, it could be mistaken for guilt and dwelling on the action itself. But I think first you have to repent, which is confess your sins and say what you've done and see if it would hurt you the same way as well. Because I think that's what articulating is like writing your thoughts down, right?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I mean, the way I understand it, I'm still, I'm still sort of new to this, this text. But the first phase, let's see if I can, it's in, it's in The Art of Fighting, we can go to that page. The first is to be able to articulate what it is you did wrong. The second is to be able to, I think, start engaging in an action that changes you.

• 38:05Trevor Noah?

  Your behavior.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Your behavior, so that you won't do it again. Again, it's not even putting any weight on the person you've harmed yet.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  And then the third, I think, is there's something else, like, uh, starting to behave differently, starting to restore the situation as much as one can. And then the fourth is apology. And so part of, part of the kind of re, putting the weight back on the person who's created harm is to actually have them go through a process where they're being changed by it.

• 38:37Trevor Noah?

  We never put enough emphasis on recompense, right?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  What does that, what does recompense mean?

• 38:41Trevor Noah?

  Trying to fix what you've done.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 38:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, trying to fix it, restore it, yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  I have, again, a simple example, a lot of, in The Art of Fighting, I actually use a lot of examples from kids and young people. In part because we can, it's almost like simpler, we can see it more clearly.

• 38:56Trevor Noah?

  It is, yeah.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  You know?

• 38:57Trevor Noah?

  It's a simplified conflict that doesn't come with the layers of.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:00Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Every, everything.

• 39:01Trevor Noah?

  Geopolitics, whatever. But it's, it's almost like the same building blocks.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 39:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  And so there was a teacher in a kindergarten class and there was a dynamic which is very common. And they're, I think, probably six-year-olds. And there was two kids and one kept on kind of bullying the other. And it was a boy and a girl in this case. And the teacher would have him stop and apologize. He kept on doing it, called the parents, told them the situation, they talked to him, he kept on doing it. It was kind of like not taking. And so she finally said, they happened to be in a ceramics unit, like making out of clay figures. And she, and again, it happened again, she had him apologize and stop the behavior. But then she said, go and ask her her favorite animal.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so he walked over, what's your favorite animal? And the girl said, a bunny. And so then the boy went back to the teacher and she said, okay, you're going to, we're going to spend the next three days making a clay bunny for her.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  And his assignment was basically starting to use, like create literally a rabbit, a clay bunny for this girl. And over the course of those three days, it was brilliant. It was a way for him to engage, to reflect on what he's been doing, to use his power to create something.

• 40:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Rather than destroy and eventually to put a lot of care into it. And he gave the girl the bunny and the dynamic shifted.

• 40:22Trevor Noah?

  Compensation. Wow.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  It's what Danielle Sared, who wrote a book called Until We Reckon, she calls doing sorry rather than being sorry.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  Yes, because I feel like being sorry is also damaging to the offender. It has a lot of guilt. Because also, the person that you're apologizing to, if they're not emotionally mature, which is what a lot of people are not, if they've been hurt for a long time without an apology, is they can turn that into a weapon. Apologies have been weaponized in long-term relationships. Apology, you've heard stories of people saying, that one affair that I had has never been forgiven. That one bad decision I made about, that put our finances into, you know, disrepair, has never been.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  But I think often because there's this intuitive sense that it's like, words aren't enough. You have to change your behavior, right? We have this sense, I think, in so many, where it's like, you said sorry, but you still kind of have a bad taste in your mouth, right? It's like, I still feel kind of hurt. So part of that, whether in a relationship, it's also saying, yeah, you made that bad financial decision, but am I seeing you take action to educate yourself, to take finance classes? Or to start balancing your checkbook, right? So it's basically saying, an apology does nothing if you keep behaving in the same way. And so some of this, like so much of the art of fighting is actually getting into the infrastructure of of of human relationships. And realizing that actually, when we when we have a conflict or we have a reckoning,

• 41:53Speaker 01

  if we come through it, we can actually become closer because of it. But in part, because we've learned from each other and are trying to change.

• 42:01Trevor Noah?

  As I'm listening to this, I can't help but wonder if some of what we're experiencing is due to the fact that we've outsourced the labor of the repair. Like, because I'm listening to both of you and I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's interesting what you said, Eugene. And it's like, oh, but, you know, the repairing and the making amends and the... And then I think to myself, if you look at the world we live in now, more and more, we're outsourcing that responsibility. So, you know, the legal system handles the ramification.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:38Trevor Noah?

  The police. So, your neighbor plays music loudly.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:43Trevor Noah?

  What you would do, like, let's say when we were growing up.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 42:46Trevor Noah?

  I mean, the idea, just the notion that you would call the police because the neighbor is playing music loudly, it could not even, it like, literally, what you would do is you would go next door and you would say, yo, babun kize, guys, kanti ni tetanini, when is this thing finishing? What's happening here? And then they would go, oh, sorry, sorry. You know, the party, and then you'd be like, what time are you finishing this thing? I know people throw parties. You're not crazy for throwing a party, you don't do it every day.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  But you know them? Do you have a pre-existing relationship with them?

• 43:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but what you're making me realize is we outsource all of it. So, you know, the policeman talks to your neighbor for you. Some people's doorman talks to the neighbor for them. The, you know what I mean? It's like, everyone, even like in a company, in a weird way with HR. HR speaks to you, but the person doesn't.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:40Trevor Noah?

  So you think about it, people get called into offices all the time, everywhere in the world, and like, Eugene, we've received a few complaints about the way that you, then you're like, from who? That's not important. All that you need to know, Eugene, is the way you speak to certain people. Then you're like, but who?

• 43:54Speaker 00

  I love it when snitch anonymity is preserved. That's the cornerstone of our whistleblowers need to be protected at all costs.

• 44:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but now the problem with that is, if that happens, how do you know who you spoke incorrectly to? Because I would argue for many of these instances in our lives, you are being you. What happens sometimes is you being the way you are will butt up against how somebody perceives you to be, or how, you know what I mean?

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, but remember that I think...

• 44:23Trevor Noah?

  So it's no, so what I'm saying is like, if you don't know who it is, I understand the logic on the other side. But I'm saying, but sometimes if you don't understand it, it's to your point. It's like now, how do you make amends deeply?

• 44:35Speaker 01

  I mean, this is, so The Art of Fighting is, I, my first book was called The Art of Gathering. This is called The Art of Fighting, and both books...

• 44:41Trevor Noah?

  I like, I like how like one letter, you're like, guys, we need to come together. Then you're like, damn, there are a lot of fights.

• 44:47Trevor Noah?

  We need to figure out how we fight when we come together, guys.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  I'll just solve the murder. Who, who done it?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Totally, the art of the hit.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  So, so, so both The Art of Fighting and The Art of Gathering, so much of why I do this work. I am, professionally, I'm a group dialogue facilitator. My day job is actually not a writer, it's a facilitator. And so much of what I've seen in popular culture is we are awash in self-help. Right? We have awash in podcasts, in tools and skills to help the individual. Right?

• 45:24Trevor Noah?

  Yep.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  How much sugar do we take? How many steps do we take? It's all about I, I, I, I, I. And even, even therapy, we focus on the boundary parts of therapy, but not the connection forging parts of therapy.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Are you spying on us?

• 45:36Trevor Noah?

  I feel like she was genuinely spying on us.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  I mean, we all come from collective cultures, right? So you can actually see where we've over-indexed on the individual.

• 45:44Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  And so part of what I tried to do with both The Art of Gathering and The Art of Fighting is these are not self-help books. They're group help books. They're books that are asking, how do we get better at the questions of our shared life?

• 45:59Speaker 00

  Yes, because also, we never, we never,

• 46:03Speaker 00

  I'm gonna try to phrase this right, instead of putting the burden on the on the person that's been offended or hurt, we also never try to find the behavior that might have caused the hurt.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  You know, when siblings especially? If someone rips off a teddy bear's head, there must have been something that happened, but the offense and the scale of offenses was so low that it went unchallenged and noticed.

• 46:25Trevor Noah?

  That's actually pointed, that's, that's, yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  What happened to get to that point?

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, how did we get here?

• 46:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 46:31Trevor Noah?

  That's, that's sometimes, I think, what, what we take for granted in society is sometimes the person who cries first gets to own the conflict.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:41Trevor Noah?

  And then you're like, wait, wait, what just happened here?

• 46:44Speaker 00

  They monopolize the offense.

• 46:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I think, I think it flattens conflict in a way that's not really productive, because how can you say sorry? Like, I think of it like, in, let's say, romantic relationships, friendships, even geopolitical, whatever it might be. You have done these things to me. I maybe took long to respond to them, maybe I need to work on that, accept whatever. When I do lash out, my lash out is responded to by you crying. And now, I now have to say sorry. But you, now we can't even address my, because you're like, that's not what we're talking about right now. Then I'm like, yeah, but don't you want to know why? And they're like, no, no, no, no.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  That's why it becomes very, very messy. And, I mean, going back to what you said earlier, as we outsource our conflict, that is so deeply true in this, in the US. Like, we basically, when conflict arises, we tend to either do one of two things. We avoid and pretend it doesn't, like, nothing's happening. Or we sue each other. And it's basically nothing. Yes, exactly, there's nothing between the two. And so often, we escalate, we burn the house down. In our workplaces, we have nothing except literally saying nothing or going to HR.

• 47:54Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Saying nothing or suing each other. And there should be so many more collective rituals to basically, the wear and tear, address the wear and tear of daily life. There's a book called Conflict is Not Abuse by Sarah Schulman. She's a brilliant writer. And she basically has like 350 pages saying exactly what you said, which is, she talks about also in communities, and she says, in communities, in part, because we have no longer, we confuse conflict with abuse, conflict is not abuse. It's discomfort. There is abuse, and there should be discerned between the two. But in part, because we are so uncomfortable, we call the police. And we outsource our community agency to an external institution, which is literally building the state.

• 48:37Trevor Noah?

  There you go. Yeah, I think of it with shoplifting. When I was a kid, how many times I got caught shoplifting?

• 48:43Speaker 00

  Guys, sorry, the views of the host.

• 48:48Trevor Noah?

  But I'm saying, like, do you know how many times I got caught shoplifting as a kid? You know how many times they called the police? Never.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 48:53Trevor Noah?

  Never. And even as a kid, I didn't think that they should be calling the police.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  What did they do? So what did they do? Slow down, what are you stealing?

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Candy bars.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  And so what happens? Like, literally, slow down.

• 49:05Trevor Noah?

  So it depends on where it was. If I got caught stealing something in like a little, like a bodega slash a, what we call like a cafe, spaza shop, all of the, you know, they're all different, and the corner store.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  And how old are you?

• 49:15Trevor Noah?

  10 years old?

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:17Trevor Noah?

  11 years old?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:18Trevor Noah?

  The shopkeeper, like, I remember this old Portuguese man, he just like grabbed me by the ear, and then he's just like, what are you doing, huh? What are you doing? What are you doing? Why you don't pay? Why you don't pay, huh? Why you don't? And the punishment was the embarrassment, the, like, you know, this whole, like, it was this moment, and then he's like, holding me there, like, you're not going.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Do you know him? He knows you? Are you, like, right? He broadly knows whose kid you are, whose nephew you are, or no?

• 49:44Trevor Noah?

  This is not the first time I've been in the store. He's seen me, he's probably seen me for years in the store. I come there and I buy things.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  You knew your mom at some point.

• 49:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, so, no, you're not wrong. So, so that thing happens. Then, even when it was like a, like a supermarket chain, it was like, they still went, where are your parents?

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 50:01Trevor Noah?

  They went, your, your parents are your police. You're gonna get in trouble with them.

• 50:06Speaker 00

  With them, yeah.

• 50:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, we're not, it just didn't, and I'm so glad that it didn't, because it's like, yeah, I still got into trouble. I still, you know what I mean? All of these things.

• 50:17Trevor Noah?

  But my brain, like now when I think of it, I go like, damn. Imagine a kid, you call the cops?

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it's also think about the communal ecosystem, the density of the communal ecosystem you're talking about. Basically, you've been in there many, many times. They, you also, like the patterning, there's also people they can, if you yell, if they yell, there's people you know you might be embarrassed for them to hear, right? All of, and in, in modern life, we're so atomized, right? If you think about, like, when I was growing up, Vienna, Virginia, there's a mall, we went there all the time, five, seven, nine, like these sort of clothing stores, or someone, someone, you steal something, they call the police, because like, there's no one else around who knows anybody who this person is. But that's not good. It's not good. It's basically when there's, when there's a lack of density.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  This relates to Jane Jacobs' work. She wrote this book called The Life and Death of Great Ameri, of American Cities. And she has this concept, she, you would love this book. She, she had this concept of eyes on the street. Have you heard of this?

• 51:22Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  So basically, she was looking at how different neighborhoods in New York City would create a density and safety, and where and how, and particularly in the seventies, when they tried to create a lot of public housing projects, why they didn't work. And then one of the reasons they didn't work, meaning there was a lot of, there was a lot of violence, and, and the poverty kind of became entrenched, is often because they were facing, not onto the street, but facing into, facing inward.

• 51:46Trevor Noah?

  No way.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  And, and like-

• 51:47Trevor Noah?

  As simple as that, it was the architecture.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Architecture, but also her, so her concept of eyes on the street was in, in these densely populated street corners, again, if someone trips, if someone steals, if some, some other kid is like behaving bad, skatesboards into the street, there's a lot of eyes on the street. Meaning there's, there's the barber, there's the store, there's the bodega owner, there's the auntie, there's the, like you all. And so the eyes on the street is actually one of the safest forms for what we would now call community safety.

• 52:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  And so the idea that you all had eyes on the street, I mean, also, American city, you know, the suburbs don't have eyes on the street. The density of the safe city street is actually eyes on the street. And so, so much of what actually, when we come falling apart from each other, is because we are, we are no longer in dense connection with each other. And so you call the cops, because you also don't know your neighbor. And so instead of, you know, hitting the broom on the ceiling and be like, hey!

• 52:42Trevor Noah?

  Right, right.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  It's like, I don't know them, and they don't know me, so let me just call the cops.

• 52:47Trevor Noah?

  It reminds me of something I read, I think it was Medellin, I think, when they were trying to like, clean up the city in Colombia, and they're trying to get past the cartels and the life of Pablo Escobar and all that. And they tried so many different ways. Yeah, I think it was Medellin, but it could have been one of the other ones. And then one of the mayors that came into power, just, he started a campaign where he just gave everyone whistles.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 53:10Trevor Noah?

  Like little plastic whistles.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:12Trevor Noah?

  And they flooded the communities with the whistles. And he said, all I want everybody to do is-

• 53:17Speaker 00

  If they see something?

• 53:17Trevor Noah?

  When you see a crime taking place, blow that whistle as hard as you can.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 53:22Trevor Noah?

  And anyone else, you also blow that whistle if you hear the whistle. And then if you see the thing, you blow the, and what, crime started drastically dropping, only because the people who are committing these crimes now realize they were being seen. And the people who are being like the victim of the crime, realize that they were part of a community.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:43Trevor Noah?

  So it was like, oh, all that's changed is you go like, no, I'm not alone. You're not alone, so we have to act differently. Whereas before it was like, you see the crime, but like, what are you gonna do?

• 53:53Speaker 01

  What are you gonna do?

• 53:54Trevor Noah?

  Call the cops, the cops are busy, there's not enough cops to handle the criminals and the whole thing. Whereas just the, brrrr, brrrr. And then people are like, all right, I guess I can't, it changes, it changes so much.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  I mean, ironically, it's a de-escalation.

• 54:07Trevor Noah?

  Have you seen, have you seen those people, I mean, some of them, I think, go a little bit too far? But have you seen those people in, in Europe now, who just go around being like, pickpockets?

• 54:15Speaker 00

  I love those.

• 54:16Trevor Noah?

  Pickpockets, pickpockets.

• 54:18Speaker 00

  They're my favorite.

• 54:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:20Trevor Noah?

  But to me, that's more effective than like policing, you know?

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that actually is what community safety is at some level. But part of the infrastructure, I mean, I, I wrote The Art of Fighting in part, first of all, I'm actually conflict averse. I'm a conflict averse conflict resolution facilitator. I hate conflict, it makes me super nervous, my aunt, my, my palms get sweaty, like in my own relationships, in my work. And part of the reason why I wrote this book and the work I do is because when I, I suffer from the opposite end, which is my, I mentioned earlier, my parents are, are an inter, were an interracial couple.

• 54:54Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  A white dad, Indian mom, and they were married for 10 years. And, and then eventually, then we moved all over the place. I was born in Zimbabwe, because it was like, they were living in Botswana at the time.

• 55:05Trevor Noah?

  Damn, look at this, shout out something, something.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  I know, there you go.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Something about you.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  You might bring me back some peanut butter?

• 55:14Speaker 01

  No, but I'll bring you an electric toilet plunge.

• 55:18Trevor Noah?

  We're in, we're in.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  We're in. And, and, and when they finally, we moved back to Virginia, and within a year, they separated. And when they separated, everyone, myself included, was shocked, because they never fought.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  And so I learned from a young age that there's great loss in avoidance. And so I, I became, I mean, you know, and after college, I became a dialogue facilitator. And so much of what I, what The Art of Fighting at some level is about is where and how do we actually engage in healthy heat? Where and how do we actually, in our teams, in our friendships, in our communities, particularly when most of our groups, most of our relationships in modern life are chosen. Right? When you're talking about all of these, the bodega in South Africa, the Portuguese guy, like, you didn't choose that.

• 56:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  You're embedded in a community, and everyone has been there for decades. And so often in modern life, part of the reason I think we're lonely, is because we've, we also like, it's really easy to bounce. You don't have to bother.

• 56:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Right? You can leave, you can find another friend, you can find another church, you can find another workplace. And so we don't actually have the muscles to come back together and figure it out.

• 56:32Trevor Noah?

  Coming up, part two on What Now?

• 56:36Speaker 01

  So often, the, the moments where like, there's a, there's a conflict, is actually what we think of as like happy moments.

• 56:42Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  And people are like, why are we fighting? This is supposed to be a happy moment, we're getting married, right?

• 56:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  And so weddings, family reunions, anniversaries, are often these moments that are, have actually a lot of conflict, because there are these moments where everyone has to see, like, well, who are we? What does it mean to be us now?

• 56:58Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, wait, so why, why do you think that's happening in those moments versus, why is it amplified in a happy moment?

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Because those moments are often like tribal or community moments, where the stakes are visible. And so, for example, with a wedding, it can be like, oh, wow, that, that's who they asked to give a toast?

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Right? Or, or we are a Muslim family, or a Mormon family, what, are we gonna serve alcohol if we have people who drink?

• 57:25Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  But we don't drink, right? Does it, we're a, a patels, you know, do we serve meat at the wedding? All of these, basically in intergenerational families, weddings are one of the last mechanisms for the cross generations to basically argue about, what does it mean to be us now?

• 57:48Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduth.