From The Vault: Darin Olien On Fatal Conveniences

Darin Olien is a wellness expert and protagonist of Netflix's "Down to Earth" with Zac Efron. This conversation explores the hidden dangers lurking in everyday products we assume are safe, from deodorant and dental floss to clothing and cleaning supplies. We discuss Darin's book "Fatal Conveniences," the toxic chemicals in our environment, why regulation is backwards, and simple swaps to protect your health. Darin also exposes the shocking truths about "forever chemicals" and why your morning routine might be slowly poisoning you. This re-release is more timely than ever. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉on.com/richroll Momentous: 35% OFF your first subscription👉livemomentous.com/richroll ROKA: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL👉ROKA.com/RICHROLL Pique: Get up to 20% OFF plus a FREE rechargeable frother and glass beaker with your first purchase 👉piquelife.com/richroll PPMP: Use code RICHROLL for $10 off your membership👉mealplanner.richroll.com Modern Elder Academy: Get Chip Conley's NEW book The Midlife Manifesto FREE (just cover shipping) 👉meawisdom.com/manifesto WHOOP: The all-new WHOOP 4.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉join.whoop.com/Roll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:17Darin Olien?

  There's 9,000 different forms of PFOS in our environment. 9,000. Just as a context, almost everyone has it in their blood. Let's become aware of this stuff so that we can make another choice.

• 1:37Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. You know what today is? Today is another re-release, and an important one at that. This is an episode that I re-listened to recently and found just as profound as I did the first time around. So, I want you to think about this. Is it possible that many of the products that you use every single day, your deodorant, your toothpaste, or even your clothes, are quietly harming your body in invisible ways, in ways you're not even aware? It's actually true. In fact, so many things that we habitually do, buy and use, things we simply consider normal, part and parcel of our everyday, modern life, are actually toxic to our bodies. Some of these things we're already well aware of,

• 2:22Rich Roll?

  breathing unclean air, for example, or things like fast food drive-throughs, or spending too much time sedentary, or endlessly scrolling our screens. But lurking another layer below are other harms more well-hidden. Things that we've been sold as safe, but actually aren't, not even tested in many cases, at least with respect to their impact long-term. From hormone disruptors to forever chemicals, we're actually surrounded by invisible threats and products we trust, routines we follow, and habits we never question. So pervasive is this malevolence, it motivated me to re-release an episode I first published two years ago with my favorite friend of all things clean living, my superhero, superfood hunting brother from another mother,

• 3:07Rich Roll?

  Darren O'Leary, in this great and wide-ranging conversation about the fatal conveniences of modern society. Worthy of your attention if you missed it when it first published, but equally so even if you did catch it upon its initial release. So that's it. There you go. And here we go. This is me and Darren O'Leary.

• 3:33Rich Roll?

  Well, good to see you. Thank you for coming back. I was thinking about the many times that you've appeared on this podcast. You've always been such a popular guest. This is your fifth appearance, so I think we've logged somewhere between eight or 10 hours of conversations.

• 3:49Darin Olien?

  Amazing.

• 3:50Rich Roll?

  Going all the way back to, our first episode was 153. That was way back.

• 3:55Darin Olien?

  Wow. How many are you at now?

• 3:57Rich Roll?

  So we're in this mid-seven, 740-something. I don't know, 750.

• 4:02Darin Olien?

  That was in this back room, you know, just like in this little engine, engineering room or something.

• 4:10Rich Roll?

  I can't remember where the first one was that we did. Was it at my house or?

• 4:14Darin Olien?

  No, no, no. It was at your partner's business.

• 4:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, we've had a few locations, but we got our HQ here. You've been here many times, but not not a guest on the podcast, so welcome.

• 4:28Darin Olien?

  Thank you, man.

• 4:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man, we've covered so many things over those episodes. We've talked about superfoods, of course, plant-based nutrition. We went deep on water and hydration. We talked about barucas and all the work that you've done in the rainforest and the various, you know, regions across South America and all your travels. We've talked about breath, brain states. We talked about Down to Earth, I think, the last time you were on, which was mid pandemic.

• 4:58Darin Olien?

  Right.

• 4:58Rich Roll?

  So lots happened since since the last time, man. Another season of Down to Earth. And now you've got this new book, Fatal Conveniences. So congratulations, buddy.

• 5:09Darin Olien?

  Thanks, dude.

• 5:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man. I know.

• 5:12Darin Olien?

  Two and a half years of.

• 5:13Rich Roll?

  Dude, I know how long and how hard you've been working on this thing like an albatross across, you know, around your neck. A lot went into it. I loved it. And I think it's really going to help a lot of people. It's really powerful. My experience in reading the book was weirdly this strange combination of it both being, on the one hand, like a very breezy, easy read, like it's very easy to kind of like go through it. And at the same time, this extremely dense, you know, comprehensive, almost, you know, research paper where you basically canvas every single thing that's out in the world trying to kill us. And the main takeaway is kind of, you know, goddamn, it's hard to be a conscious human

• 5:57Rich Roll?

  in the modern world, isn't it? It's fucking inconvenient.

• 6:00Darin Olien?

  It's very inconvenient.

• 6:01Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 6:02Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah, you know, it's this one, this shocked me a bit. I naively said, I'm going to write this book because I, you know, in parallel to 30 years of kind of the start of understanding this with my dad, which we can unpack and talk about a little bit, but. This has been a part of my life ever since then. So I'm like, yeah, no problem. I know a bunch of this stuff. Let's write a book. I'll be able to crank it out in six months. I literally thought that. That was the first kind of idea. And then two and a half years later. Yeah. Because it's like when you really, it's like as anything, Rich, right?

• 6:46Darin Olien?

  When you, when you really look and really ask questions and really start to study something, mostly it's, it's, it's more complex than you can possibly imagine. Anything in life, all environmental issues, all of these chemicals, why they're there, why they're not there, whatever it is, it's always very complex. And so that's why flippantly in this world, when you're seeing people just making comments and this kind of clickbaitable stuff, it's, it's, it doesn't do a lot of service to the complexity of things.

• 7:29Darin Olien?

  And, you know, our mutual friend Paul Hawken is such a great example of, of inviting the powers that be into the conversation and into proactivity of how to make changes. And, and, and even, you know, on, on Down to Earth, when we sat, sat down with the professor who wrote Black Yumu, I'm losing track of his name right now, that, you know, you know, we go into all these complex issues and he says, you know, we say, what do we do?

• 8:10Darin Olien?

  And he literally says, have tea and talk about it with each other so that we come together. So, so it's like, so that being said.

• 8:22Darin Olien?

  Every chapter in that book is so complex and so big that easily could have been a book.

• 8:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. I mean, that's a really powerful perspective that, as you mentioned, is applicable across the board to whatever subject matter you're trying to understand. We go into these things thinking we have an idea of what it is. Oh, it's a black and white. It's us versus them. We see a lot of that on the internet. The algorithm favors the us versus them model and amplifies that. And a lot of so-called "experts" spewing here and there in a way that makes it sound like they know what they're talking about, but not necessarily. Is that a good arbiter of true wisdom?

• 9:11Rich Roll?

  And mastery, as you know, is the capacity to really immerse yourself in a subject matter where you go on that journey where you think you know, and then the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And then ultimately, through lifelong dedication, you come out the other side and have some level of wisdom matched with humility, and you're able to communicate it in simplistic terms. And I think a lot of people, particularly on the internet, are pretenders to that level of mastery, and they hide behind a lot of language and a lot of phraseology that makes people think that they know what they're talking about. But real mastery is being able to condense it down

• 9:55Rich Roll?

  and explain things simply with that level of humility. And I feel like, on some level, not to overly project here, I don't know that you would consider yourself a master on any of the subjects, these rabbit holes that you went down, but you were able to communicate really complex stuff in, like I said, a very readable way. And each one of these chapters is a launching pad or a starting gate for somebody to go deeper into their own exploration.

• 10:26Darin Olien?

  Yeah, I think what you said, I agree 1,000%. And that book is definitely an example of knocking me back a notch, thinking I know, and sitting me in the seat of like... This is, number one, so shocking. I don't know how many times Rich going through each chapter and each research, I was like, what the fuck is going on? Like, I don't, I'm reading it and I still don't understand why this is happening. Right? So that, coupled with just the enormous amount of research that was used and cited

• 11:05Darin Olien?

  and helped guide, you, I'm going, oh my God, I'm a forever student. Forever student of this modern day conundrum that we're in. Because we all were born into it, all of us, right? And, and, and we weren't even given our first breath and we were already inoculated with chemicals in the umbilical cord. And it shows up many different studies, many different ways. And that's the shocking thing. And did you have a choice? Did that little baby in the womb have a choice in utero? No. So, you know, all of this stuff, yeah, man, it knocked me back.

• 11:49Darin Olien?

  I wanted to quit. My, my researchers, you know, going back to the table, this isn't working, this isn't working. And then you realize, wow, I am so naive to all of this stuff. And that this literally takes a village and a team and professionals to, to amass this knowledge and to try to put it. And now to answer one of those things about trying to make it palatable and digestible for someone, a technique that I constantly use, shout out to my brother Troy.

• 12:33Darin Olien?

  He doesn't know this, but I constantly listen through his perception of the world.

• 12:39Rich Roll?

  So it, it was sort of written with him in mind, like he was the, the audience member that you were writing for?

• 12:46Darin Olien?

  Cause if he doesn't, my brother's like, if he learns something and he can understand it. It's not all people are like this, but he goes, "Oh, well, why would I do that? Why would I drink out of this microplastic induced estrogen mimicking thalate filled plastic water bottle? When I can just go, 'All right, I got tested well water and I'll use a glass.' Why would you, why would you drink out of plastic now knowing what it is?" So with that, you know, I don't mean this disparagingly, but just a simple, common sense filter of, of looking at the world.

• 13:29Darin Olien?

  I wanted to make the book with infinite complexity. Make it so that my brother, my mom, Midwestern roots of family and people and friends could, could read this book and go, "Okay, I get it."

• 13:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think you, I think you succeed on that front. Um, you know, on the one level, uh, you know, you can read this book and, and basically the thesis is, is like, everything we use, buy, eat, wear, everything we sleep on, everything we use to keep cool or clean ourselves or our stuff is, is bad and is trying to kill us, right? It's like kind of, you know, dispiriting and, and dystopic in, in many ways. And it's easy to obviously be overwhelmed by that and, and, and, you know, you know, perhaps freaked out. It's a matrix-like experience as you kind of describe in the book.

• 14:23Rich Roll?

  But it's paired with solutions and, and optimistic, you know, kind of tonality to it. In that it provides all of us with, um, a, a kind of call to action to reclaim our sovereignty. And I know sovereignty is a big, that's big with you, to, you know, really recognize our own agency and, and shoulder the responsibility that we all have to make better choices for ourselves. And on some level, that's empowering and those choices, you know, one single choice by one single person isn't going to change the world, but you know, in macro, you scale that up and the more consumers are conscious of those choices, the more our capitalist

• 15:07Rich Roll?

  society responds to meet that demand.

• 15:10Darin Olien?

  Totally.

• 15:10Rich Roll?

  And that's the inclusive, like- You know, you bring people into the conversation. I mean, that's really the macro thing here. It's like, we can point fingers and say, these people are bad or evil. This product should be banned, et cetera. But ultimately, change is forged through, you know, mature conversations with, you know, people in the seats of power who can, you know, change the course of how we do these things, right? And if you alienate them and don't create a welcoming environment to have that conversation to begin with, you're never going to get off the dime.

• 15:43Darin Olien?

  Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, you know, on the one hand, you know, you and I have been in the health space for a long time. You know, I wrote Super Life, super stoked to write that as my first book and kind of get this foundational principle out. And then, then it finally dawned on me, you know, and Harper came back like, hey, man, like, we can write another book, would you? And I'm just going, just like, blaringly obvious, was this invisible, hard to pin down world of chemicals and EMFs and toxicology that is

• 16:22Rich Roll?

  pervasive.

• 16:23Darin Olien?

  pervasive everywhere, that is hitting us on so many different angles, hundreds of interactions of, of lab-created chemicals every day, all day, that literally disrupting our endocrine system, disrupting and lowering testosterones, thyroids, pituitary, you name it, and it just keeps going. So I'm like, okay, well, I'm writing something, on the one hand of Super Life, trying to help people get better, but then this invisible elephant, right?

• 17:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:06Darin Olien?

  In the room of our world is just screaming in my head. And

• 17:13Darin Olien?

  The full circle because my dad was the first teacher, you know, as a teacher, he then taught me, hey, man, in order for me to be around you, and I was studying college, I was soaking up physiology at the time, but I still thought my dad was weird. But my dad was the first one telling me, and through his discovery of he was chemically sensitive, right? And, and then I'm like, dad's crazy, right? Maybe he's, you know, he was the angry, dry drunk most of my life, and now some, something else is happening.

• 17:55Darin Olien?

  But then when he'd say, hey, man, he'd send that care package to me in college, you're coming home this weekend, well, you gotta do laundry with this unscented brand, this bar soap, this shampoo, this conditioner, and don't wear these kind of clothes. When I actually then did it, because in order to hang out with him and see him, I had to abide by these things, I then started to realize how desensitized I was from all of these things, and I started to feel better, even though I didn't know I was not feeling all that optimal.

• 18:35Darin Olien?

  And then, you know, so that was the, that was the start, and my dad's mystery became him being the first person to start in, not the first person in his area, and maybe Southern California, to really start to investigate this through multiple doctors that were trying to figure out why his, he had neurological decline, he had depression, he, he literally could not, he was, his, his endocrine system was being hijacked, his nervous system was being hijacked, his stress response was being hijacked. So finally, he was able to get to like, oh, there was the azodize coming off of my favorite

• 19:17Darin Olien?

  Harley t-shirts, you know, my blue jeans, my paints, my fire retardants, my, you know, any smells, perfumes, parfum, all of this stuff.

• 19:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, all that cologne you were wearing back in the day, right?

• 19:35Rich Roll?

  Truck, car, and a war.

• 19:36Darin Olien?

  Totally.

• 19:37Rich Roll?

  All over, all over Big D.

• 19:39Darin Olien?

  Oh my god.

• 19:40Rich Roll?

  Freshman year in college, right?

• 19:41Darin Olien?

  Sure.

• 19:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, the thing that's so interesting about this, you know, and I, I've heard you share about your dad many times, but I learned, I learned a lot more about that backstory that I didn't know. And, you know, for those that are listening or watching, it's easy to think, well, Darren kind of jumped on this fatal conveniences idea when he started doing segments on his podcast, talking about this. Those got popular. You started making reels on Instagram, little videos, like little nuggets on this, this concept. But it really does go all the way back to your childhood and this condition that your dad suffered from at a time where, you know, not only was that weird, like I can imagine, you know,

• 20:24Rich Roll?

  how other people responded to that. You talk a little bit about it in the book, like, like people didn't know what it was, what it was, or what caused it, or, or the fact that you would have to, you know, jump through all these hoops just to be in his presence must have been, you know, very foreign and, and perhaps off putting to a lot of people.

• 20:41Darin Olien?

  Yeah, it was really hard for him. I mean, here's the, you know, the, the male figure in my life who's kind of being, you can't see what's going, you can't see what the abuse that's happening inside his head.

• 20:54Rich Roll?

  So he's just nuts, right? He was, you know, he, he must be crazy. He was a veteran, you know? And then you tell, on top of the whole thing, I didn't know the whole story of the keepers of the dragon and his experience on, on this aircraft carrier during the Cuban Missile Crisis, which is wild.

• 21:12Darin Olien?

  Yeah. So he started putting pieces together that I didn't, I didn't even know he was involved in that till that Kevin Costner movie came out talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis. My dad started crying in front of me. First time I've ever seen him cry. And I finally asked him, like, why are you so emotional over this? And then he, you know, told me this whole thing. He was one of the keepers of the dragon, which they called this small group of people that took care of the atomic bomb, that loaded it up, that got it ready. That was a partial engineer job. And, and so these guys were the harbingers of this nuclear bomb. And so he was around that.

• 21:57Darin Olien?

  So that, obviously, the stress and the craziness of that, he never shared it. But the one thing that it left him with was an absolute annihilation of his thyroid. Right? So then, then- The radioactive exposure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so, so he was already hijacked from an ionizing radiation, which pulls apart electrons and destroys DNA. And very acutely has an affinity for the thyroid. So he didn't have that. And so as I'm putting these pieces together and seeing kind of the front row of his life,

• 22:40Darin Olien?

  and then it's almost like if you have this glass here, his immune system, his liver was compromised of alcoholism, and then this compromised endocrine system and a thyroid that was gone. And then you add on top of it this exposure, this, this level of depression that would come in and had very little resiliency. So it's as if, if I took this water and I filled up this glass and it kind of spilled over. He had, he did not have a normal level of resiliency to just kind of live his life. Right?

• 23:20Darin Olien?

  And I'm very, I, my conclusion is that that led him down to a forced retirement with a disability because he, he couldn't educate his wing at the college, right? He couldn't do it fast enough to get people to like, hey, man, I have this thing called chemical sensitivity. He would make, he was a teacher, so he'd make tapes, he would find all the research, and he would send it to everybody, all of his colleagues and everything else. And then he had to retire. And then slowly he had to start giving up. Parts of his life and he was very sociable. He loved connecting with people, he cared deeply.

• 24:03Darin Olien?

  And, and when things were kind of being taken away from him because of this invisible thing that he couldn't, abuse started showing back up in his life after thirty years of sobriety. I'm convinced it's, it's a absolute strong uh, situation that, that led him to feeling not so great and then ultimately alcohol claimed his life.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  Right, forced isolation. Bad, you know, leading, leading to that relapse.

• 24:32Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's tragic, you know, it's really, it's, it's really sad, but it's also powerful, you know, it's perhaps the most powerful example that you have to kind of set the stage to talk about these invisible forces that are at play that, you know, we didn't consent to even before birth, as you mentioned. And you quoted an amazing study that the, I think that is the Environmental Working Group did, where they tested like umbilical cord, you know, like umbilical cords of babies and realizing how rife with all kinds of chemicals and, and toxins existed there, you know, prior to birth.

• 25:10Darin Olien?

  Two hundred plus.

• 25:11Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:11Darin Olien?

  And, and seventy five, over seventy five percent of them are known problematic uh, cancer, uh, uterine problems, birth defects, et cetera. And that, and that's how we're starting

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:26Darin Olien?

  life. Uh, and you're like, you know, that, that's a, and now with, you know, pre and pro floral alkalized substances called PFOS. These things now are in over ninety percent of, of Red Cross did this. Over ninety percent of everyone's blood is PFOS and that's, that's a, for everyone listening, that's in a class of compounds called forever chemicals. Forever, right? And that, that is, I was thinking on the way over,

• 26:10Darin Olien?

  I was like, what's the most startling? Cause so many times, how many swear words are in here when I'm going through research going, what the fuck is happening, right? How is this possible? PFAS is pretty gnarly because not only are they forever chemicals and we've had examples of them too. You know, we've had examples of other forever chemicals. DDT was banned in 1972 and guess what is in over 90% of all teenagers today? DDT.

• 26:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I saw that in the book. That was shocking because you would think that's, that's by, that's a bygone, like that, that doesn't exist anymore. We, we, we got our shit together when it came to that.

• 26:52Darin Olien?

  Yeah. And it's like, and this is where it goes into, again, Rich, we have so many rabbit holes to go down.

• 26:58Rich Roll?

  I was trying to keep it on the rails.

• 27:00Darin Olien?

  But it go, but it goes and people are going, "Yeah, but how is it that these things even exist?" And there's a million examples in the book, right? How are these things even in the book? Well, there's, there's a couple of ways to answer that. There's plausible deniability, right? So plausible deniability is basically, "Well, if we don't test it in our product, then we don't know what's there. We don't know it's harmful." And then if you look at some of the studies, you're clearly showing in other randomized controlled trials that it's causing harm and mammals and mice and all

• 27:45Darin Olien?

  these other things. So the game, those come out with the game. The game is we're gonna put whatever we want, for the most part, in these products. And then if there's a problem, and if there's an overwhelming amount of a problem, then the quote unquote government regulatory bodies will step in and then do something about it. Right? So, you know, we talked, I think before we even recording, like it's a moving target. Like this book,

• 28:23Darin Olien?

  every week there was more stuff coming out. And even before being done, and now there was, um, Simply, Simply Orange, uh, got busted by the Coca-Cola company and full of a bunch of crazy stuff. But you know what they found? 200.

• 28:48Darin Olien?

  PFOS chemicals in that being sold.

• 28:51Rich Roll?

  Simply Orange is a orange juice brand.

• 28:53Darin Olien?

  Yeah, it's an orange juice brand by the Coca-Cola company. So they didn't test it, so they quote unquote, didn't know.

• 29:00Rich Roll?

  Right, so yeah.

• 29:04Rich Roll?

  Just to kind of tie the knot on PFOS and we can talk about more, talk about that more if you like. That was something that I talked extensively about with Aaron Brockovich with respect to water and what's going on with water, you know, shocking. You can go and listen to that. We spent two hours talking about PFOS. And then I had Greg Renfrew on, who's the founder of Beauty Counter. She created this amazing company to produce personal care products for women that were toxin free and has been a loud and very powerful voice on Capitol Hill lobbying for change. But you know, some of what she shared, you know, mimics or just overlaps perfectly with what you're saying here.

• 29:47Rich Roll?

  Basically, I mean, first of all, I don't know if this has changed, but she shared that the United States had not passed any major legislation on the safety of ingredients in personal care products since 1939. And essentially, you know, the kind of quote that you have in the book on this is that she talks about is, is this, this burden of proof, right? Like basically, it's not a situation in which the company who's about to put a product on the shelf has to prove that it's safe. It can just go into use and only when evidence mounts that it's dangerous, not just dangerous, but that the danger is overwhelming and impossible to ignore, will the government

• 30:30Rich Roll?

  get involved or people file lawsuits or what have you. So that's all broken and reversed. And when you look at the very long list of chemicals that find their way into all of these products that are just sort of like, well, they're safe or, you know, they do these internal studies, right? Like they either don't study it before it goes on the shelf or they do a self-serving study to say, yeah, we've, we've looked at it, it's safe. And it's kind of a roulette wheel, right? And meanwhile, we, you know, another kind of overarching theme in the book that you make very clear is that we're living in an experiment.

• 31:05Darin Olien?

  I'm glad that you've had a couple of badasses on this podcast to talk about this because I, I, I need to. This is as, as, as way through the legacy of. Of my first teacher was my dad, you know, so I have to talk about it and I know it's affecting people and then. So, yeah, I mean, the, the PFOS thing is so crazy and so it is, and it is absolutely reversed. So, we think this is the internal fatal convenience of regulation. That in and of itself is a fatal convenience of how this is happening. It's a twilight zone of an experiment as opposed to shouldn't it be proven safe?

• 31:51Darin Olien?

  Before we can blast it out to our children and put this very easy wipeable baby bib on our beautiful child when that easy wipeable baby bib is full of PFOS? Because it's a non-sticking, easy to wipe off. And just for context for everybody, because they should go back and listen to those other podcasts that you've mentioned. It is a grandson of Teflon, right? It's this fluorine reaction, chemical reaction that goes on and it shows up, just to give a couple of examples.

• 32:32Darin Olien?

  Every time you see something saying like a wrinkle free, run the other way. When that mascara doesn't come off, don't use it. All of these things and packaging, the, the, you know, not that you and I partake in, in fast food, but that, that the food doesn't stick to the wrappers PFOS.

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was the, the fast food wrapper one was one I didn't know.

• 32:59Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 33:00Rich Roll?

  Talk about, explain that one.

• 33:01Darin Olien?

  Yeah, so I mean, they use this, again, they're taking what is thankfully, how many years later, being banned in the coating of pans? Which is the, kind of the origin story of Teflon.

• 33:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we all know, as children of the seventies, we all remember that, the non-stick pans and, and all of that, that, you know, finally.

• 33:24Darin Olien?

  But they're still then they're like, well, okay, well, let's just use it in these other areas where we don't have to, no one knows about them, no one needs to talk about them. So Gore-Tex, right? So rain resistant, stain resistant carpets, food packaging. So, so all of these slippery kind of surfaces, they're all derivatives of this known probable, as they say, carcinogen and endocrine disruptor. So, so just as a context, almost everyone has it in their blood and they're doing, and, and also to understand that the numbers are staggering.

• 34:09Darin Olien?

  There's 9,000 different forms of PFOS in our environment, 9,000, right? So we're getting hit unknowingly and we're not voting for that. So, you know, I go back to, okay, let's, let's become aware of this stuff so that we can make another choice. And that's really where all of this comes from. Like Rich, you know, just to be straight up, I did not want to write, I didn't, I didn't want to have to write a book like this. But when you realize the regulation bodies aren't regulating, they're just reacting to

• 34:52Darin Olien?

  that cascade that happens that then the government has to step in. But the Toxic Substance Control Act, so think about it. The Toxic Control Substance Act was initiated because of PFOS to then give permission for the regulatory bodies to then regulate. You're like, what? You didn't, what? Like, everything, I'm reading this, all of this stuff, and it's, everything's the opposite. Like you said, and, and this is where people going, I don't get it. So if I go into a store, and if I don't know which product to choose that doesn't have these

• 35:36Darin Olien?

  things, and you're getting exposed to not only PFOS, but BPA, BPH, PCBs, DDTs, heavy metals, and, and the next question is, how is that possible? And the first answer I would say, I don't know.

• 36:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was, you know, my obvious next question, given that there are, you know, good faith actors out there trying to, you know, influence the landscape. We have, we mentioned the Environmental Working Group, like, they do great work. You know, people like Paul Hawken, yourself, you know, they're out there, you know, trying to educate the public, but this seems to be really locked in. Like, what is it about our system that is so resistant to protecting the public when it comes to this kind of stuff?

• 36:34Darin Olien?

  I mean, dude, I mean, the only place I can go is, we've created a false god, right? And that false god is this prophet over the health and safety. Like, it's reversed. So, you know, let's just put all this stuff out, and if it's a problem, we'll deal with all of this later, you know? And so, I don't understand it, I don't know why it is, but that whole thing is reversed. And, but, you know, I always go to the optimism of all of this stuff. The optimism is having these conversations so that you and I can amplify the message of regular people realizing that this is what it is.

• 37:20Darin Olien?

  There is a huge amount of chemical exposure. On average, an average woman every day is getting hit with over a hundred different chemicals, all of which are some sort of form of endocrine disruptant, carcinogenic, ammonium salts, the breast tissue from deodorants, you know, it just goes on and on and on. So this is, in order for us to change, we need to face it. We need to go, okay, this is realism 101. What's happening? This is what's happening. This is why I had to hire 25 people and fact checkers and pay them and like work my ass

• 38:01Darin Olien?

  off to get through all of this stuff so that we can face this honestly? And then the optimism comes by the eight billion people we have. We have the numbers. So as we wake up, as we then go, oh, okay, well, I'm not saying don't use cell phones, don't wash your hair, maybe do a little less of them, right? That we can change from not this to this, right? We have better solutions. Obviously, a third of the book is littered with solutions for these things. So that's the hope, right?

• 38:41Darin Olien?

  And I use this example, Rich, of like, you know, you and I spent a lot of time together and we know that in order to have real good relationships, you gotta face not only yourself with radical honesty, you gotta face people and people in your life with radical honesty and have these, these very healthy but direct truthful conversations. This is the same, this is the same thing, right? I wish this wasn't the case. I wish all these chemicals weren't blasting you and me and our children with all of this stuff. But it's, it is what we were born into.

• 39:24Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:25Darin Olien?

  So I, I'm not okay with it. I saw my dad suffer firsthand and I just wanna face it honestly to then uplift, support and create the waves of continued change. So that we can celebrate the people putting lavender in as opposed to a trade secret, endocrine disrupting carcinogenic property of a formula that they weirdly don't have to disclose because they just call it a trade secret. Like, let's not reward that. Let's, let's reward the people, the, the, the companies that are trying to do the right thing. It's better for you.

• 40:10Darin Olien?

  It's better for the people around you and in the case of colognes and perfume. And it's ultimately better for the environment. And that's where I love, which became very clear to me in the writing of this thing that, well, we are an ecosystem, right? So if these chemicals are severely affecting my ecosystem, maybe it's changing my microbiome on my skin, affecting the sebum production because I've put some sort of weird ass lotion on my body, all of these things, how they are created, what they are from in the environmental

• 40:51Darin Olien?

  side of things, where the production side of things are also an equally destroying parts of the environment. So as it hurts you, it hurts the environment. So you wanna be an eco warrior? Clean this stuff up in yourself. Clean up all of these exposures. And it's not about trying to be perfect. It's just trying to make one better choice every time. Because that's the journey of life anyway.

• 41:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, sure. I love the idea of radical honesty and kind of emerging out of this state of denial. There's a sort of blissful ignorance about how we make our consumer choices. We've talked a lot about factory farming and the ag gag laws. Like, there's a lot of money to erect barriers to prevent the level of transparency that would connect the consumer with how our food is actually made. Because it's important, and if people knew, maybe they would think twice. So there's a lot of interest in maintaining the status quo and preventing any level of radical honesty. Because people like things that are convenient, and they like things that are easily accessible and cheap. And that's what we have right now.

• 42:08Rich Roll?

  And just go to the mall and knock yourself out. And to have this conversation is to tell people, like, hold on a second. You might want to know that all these other things are happening. Some people are going to be very resistant. Because to know that requires them to then have to consider their choices. And that's uncomfortable. That is like, you're asking a lot of somebody to do that. And yet, here we are in the situation we're in with global climate change and all of that. Like, there's never been a more urgent or better time, nor a more receptive global audience to these ideas. So, yes, this conversation is overdue.

• 42:53Rich Roll?

  And we're dealing with a capitalist system that's very entrenched in a certain level of status quo. They like it the way that it is. They don't want people to know that the jeans that they're wearing have a zillion downstream negative implications, not just for the humans that are wearing them, but for the workers that are manufacturing them and for everything that ends up in the water table as a result of the dyes and the runoffs and the microplastics, etc. It's quite shocking to hear all of that. It is a matrix situation, and it's a lot. Like, it's overload. Like, if you sat down and read this book from beginning to end, your head would explode. So, like, how do you even begin? I mean, I guess...

• 43:35Rich Roll?

  Before we go any further, maybe like, give me your definition of what a fatal convenience is. We're like 40 minutes in and we haven't even like defined what we're talking about here, but I think people get it. But go ahead.

• 43:46Darin Olien?

  Yeah, well, you know, a fatal convenience is you're doing something. I can easily grab this wa- this water and drink it. It's convenient. So, you know, many places around the world can turn on, uh, don't have access to clean water. So that's a convenience. The fatal side of it comes in, here's that nasty PFOS that shows up again. Here's the nitrates that come by the runoff of the, of the, the glyphosate and the fertilizers and everything else. The microplastics are now showing up in the waterways.

• 44:24Darin Olien?

  So, so it's things that you're doing, living your modern day life and not realizing have kind of a punch to your system, your life that you're not realizing. You have, you know, people having more and more depressive disorders, more and more endometriosis for women. Like, uh, the, the list, cancers, um, all of these things, cardiovascular, uh, linked to some of these perfumes and things like that. So we can naively move forward, but we are, our biology, our chemistry, our being

• 45:08Darin Olien?

  is being affected by these things every day, all day. And so to pretend, sure, it's shocking to people. And I think the biggest thing is it starts to rewrite your idea of reality. Because what, if you start to really grok what we said earlier about, wait, what? That they can just put this stuff out on the market and aren't really responsible unless there's an overwhelming response. Then we'll step in. Ha, that has to, many people don't get that.

• 45:49Darin Olien?

  Many people in the world don't realize that this is an experiment and they're putting 60 to 80,000 chemicals in our environment every year. And of that, only about 1,500 are tested.

• 46:05Darin Olien?

  And just individually tested, none, zero zilch are tested as they interact with themselves or us. So it's, it's an impossibility for, in some cases, to find one smoking gun, right? In another instance, to really get your head around all of this exposure, exposure. And then, so you go, wow, not all products, most of which in the personal care space and beauty space and clothing, actually have very dangerous consequences. And it's not that you're putting on the pair of blue jeans and it's killing you tomorrow. It's this accumulative body burden.

• 46:50Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so the rebuttal argument to all of these chemicals and all of these products that, that, you know, billions of people are using every single day, is that they are being delivered in such micro doses as to be, you know, at, to be, you know, neutral and not harmful. Like, they're, they're benign, they're inert because it's so tiny. So, the response to that is twofold. On the one hand, it's what you just stated, this idea of allostatic load. Like, over the course of your lifetime, yeah, but, you know, yeah, like, in this one laundry detergent, or in this bar of soap, or whatever, it's, it's so microscopic, you don't have to worry about it.

• 47:33Rich Roll?

  But, you know, you're, wash your hair, you do the soap, you do, then, then you eat the, you know, the cheeseburger for lunch, and then you have the Monster Energy drink, and then you, and then you, you know, you put on your blue jean, like, you're just, you're, you're basically like, just constantly, you know, impulsing your body through hundreds, if not thousands, of, of different chemical inputs every single day. So there's that load over time. Because a lot of these chemicals have a short half-life compared to the forever chemicals, the PFOSs, right? So there's a conversation around that. And then second to that is, and I found this very interesting, I learned a lot about this in your book, is it ignores the infinite complexity and interplay of all of these

• 48:18Rich Roll?

  different chemicals interacting with each other, which makes it impossible to study or evaluate, because you don't know what the chemical from your Monster Energy Drink is going, what that is gonna do when it interacts with, you know, the glyphosate that found its way into your system because of the factory-farmed whatever that you ate.

• 48:39Darin Olien?

  Yeah, it is, and that's where it gets just completely crazy, right? And so you talk about these half-lives, so you've got like things like BPA and thalates, which have sometimes just a few hours, or maybe, maybe a day or so, and then that's where, well, it's fine, right? It's fine, there were some studies on it, but that's not the real world. When you actually look at the studies showing real world, like the, one of the shockers was oxybenzone, benzoin, which is in most of the sunscreens.

• 49:19Darin Olien?

  Like, yeah, they studied it, like, oh, small enough doses, but how it's applied and what shows up in the blood was somewhere between 500 times more. So it's, in the real world is massively different. So these people, if they do do studies, they, it's so limited and not realistic, and like I said, none of them are the interaction. So, okay, you woke up.

• 49:48Darin Olien?

  You went in a shower, it wasn't filtered. Okay, so you've got microplastics, PFOS, you know, volatile organic compounds, VOCs, all while you're showering. Right? You're using a body wash, you're using shampoo, you're using a conditioner, all of that. Parabens, phthalates, fragrances, right? Then you're getting out of the shower and you're putting on a lotion, right?

• 50:11Rich Roll?

  Right, well, first of all, you're drying off with a towel. That is what, you know, like, has all these dyes on it.

• 50:16Darin Olien?

  Right, so that's full, again, you can literally-

• 50:19Rich Roll?

  You've been awake for five minutes.

• 50:21Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and, and then maybe had a glass of water that you didn't filter, or whatever it is.

• 50:30Darin Olien?

  And then, yeah, so now you're, so exposure, exposure, exposure, exposure. Then you're putting on your, your mascara and your makeup and your, God forbid you ever use regular perfume after reading this book again. There's great, again, there's amazing choices. Essential oils and things that are beneficial-

• 50:51Rich Roll?

  Frankincense and myrrh.

• 50:54Rich Roll?

  Gotta get like biblical?

• 50:56Darin Olien?

  Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, come on. Rose and lavender and like, there's just a great companies that, that, that, and it's also gifting to other people around you. So the point is that, okay, some of those half-lifes of the parabens and the phthalates and maybe even the fragrances are a few hours. But, but you're also re-infecting yourself all throughout the day. Right? And then you're putting on your deodorants and the ammonium salts are interacting and proven through carcinogenic activity of, of binding to the, and, and clogging up the pores and creating all kinds of xenoactivity. So, you know, all of these things, it's that, again,

• 51:40Darin Olien?

  that overall body burden, the accumulation. And, and that's where, you know-

• 51:48Darin Olien?

  Just looking at it all, you're, these are, just think of them as stressors. Stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, stress on a cellular, deep level. And, you know, I think the job is, the intention is to slowly, kind of from the inside out, you know, opening your mouth extremely vulnerable to the world, right? So, choose wisely. You know, what are you drinking? What is it interacting with? What are you eating? What is it interacting with? So, what are you, you know, the water, the, you know, cans, aluminum, chelating, heavy metals, what's in my food, all of that stuff? And then work your way out from there, okay?

• 52:33Darin Olien?

  What's going on in my skin? Cause there's a lot of transdermal activity of these chemicals and they're going into your skin. I just did, it wasn't even the book, I just did a fatal convenience, cause I do these on my podcast all the time. I just did one on the, on the shaving strips. Scared the shit out of me. And I'm like, I was like, hmm, I suspect something with these. And again, there's mono ethylenes in there, there's, um, which are endocrine disrupting, there's other ammonium salts in there, that, think about it.

• 53:04Rich Roll?

  Like the glue for, you know, stripping hair off your face or your legs or whatever?

• 53:09Darin Olien?

  Oh my god.

• 53:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:10Darin Olien?

  All of that stuff. So shaving, shaving with the strip? So that's what I mean. The shave, the strip on that lubricating shaving?

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  Oh, on the actual, uh, I see what you're saying.

• 53:22Darin Olien?

  Yeah, so.

• 53:22Rich Roll?

  On the razor itself.

• 53:23Darin Olien?

  Yeah, and what a convenience. No shave burns, blah, blah, blah. But then again, you're shaving and you're also micro cutting. So all those chemicals are basically just going right into your bloodstream. So.

• 53:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I would have never thought of that.

• 53:38Darin Olien?

  Yeah, and this is what I mean, like the apathy, because we're born into this, right? And it's all around us. The apathy that we have come accustomed to, that we stop thinking, my whole.

• 53:50Rich Roll?

  But that burden shouldn't be on us. Like, it's not that we're apathetic. Like, are we supposed to go, I wonder if that strip on my thing is gonna harm me? Like, we shouldn't have to go down the rabbit hole that you went down to figure out whether that's safe or not.

• 54:03Darin Olien?

  I know. That's what I mean. I wish I never had to write this book. I, I, dude, you know, I have a busy life. I've got a lot to do. You know, I took two weekends off in two years. Cause every weekend it was less distracting and I spent just a huge amount of time on the everyday, all day, Saturday, Sunday. Man, I have a lot to do, but it's like,

• 54:33Darin Olien?

  when you read, when you learn, the matrix just keeps going, man. And it just like, and you know, those things where it's like, with awareness and knowledge become, you know, you have greater responsibility as a result.

• 54:52Darin Olien?

  And being that it was very close to home, watching my father suffer. My whole like, like it's a little,

• 55:05Darin Olien?

  I see life in fatal conveniences now. You know, the greatest kind of,

• 55:12Darin Olien?

  inspiration for learning about fatal conveniences is leaving my environment.

• 55:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Where you control every minute, minute detail.

• 55:21Darin Olien?

  And I just go out going, oh my God, people still use that. Like I went home and I saw my mom still using Vaseline on her face. Right? That's just straight up petroleum wiping on her face for the last 50 years. Right? And so I see this stuff happening and I, I can't help myself but to go up. You know, I'm always texting my team like, okay, this one's next for fatal convenience. This one's next. And you know, that's, that's the job at this point. It's just the, you know, the book is a conversation starter about a lot of things. I could have, that could have been a volume series of 20.

• 56:02Darin Olien?

  All based in fatal conveniences. So my hope is that people can just open it up. Obviously, I want them to read it all the way through to get the context of everything. Because we dedicated certain parts of the book, certainly PFOS, EMFs. You're setting things up going, okay, this is what's have personal care. You know, all of these things you're setting up so that people have a good understanding of what you're then going to give them specific examples to. So that they can go, oh, my God, here it is again.

• 56:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Before you go and buy a mattress or buy bed sheets or laundry detergent, maybe just, you know, find the pages in the book and refer to that first.

• 56:46Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Rich Roll?

  You know, because a lot of the stuff, we sort of know, like, you know, whether we know processed foods, you know, factory farming, these things are, you know, things that we should avoid. There's some of the, you know, kind of more obvious stuff, but there's a lot of things in here that are that are non-obvious. Like, I think mattresses is, you know, would be in that category or, you know, a discussion around off-gassing or, you know, some of the really what we think are just completely mundane products that we use to wash our hands or our clothes.

• 57:18Darin Olien?

  Totally. Yeah. And, you know, the, again, it's this invisible world that I'm trying to make more visible.

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  On top of that, you talked about the oneness of our own personal ecosystems and the greater ecosystem of the planet. There's, of course, the sort of chemical inputs of these of these products, whether they're food, clothing, personal care, cleaning products, et cetera, you know, on our on our bodies, in our bodies, what that is doing to us. But then, of course, as you kind of, you know, the nesting egg expands outward, you're like, well, the packaging that it's coming in, or even if the packaging doesn't seem particularly malevolent, what's the liner inside the packet, the paper packaging? You know, what does that look like? And where did that come from? And how was that made?

• 58:08Rich Roll?

  And is that coming into contact with me? And then there's the manufacturing process itself, like.

• 58:15Rich Roll?

  How are these things being made? What are the inputs that are creating this? What is the carbon footprint of all of those inputs aggregated? And what is the runoff? Like, what's happening to our water table? Where are all the chemicals ending up on the planet? Like, how are we processing the waste, etc.? We know this with, for example, pig farming and all the refuse and how that gets turned into fertilizer and gets sprayed into the air and people have respiratory diseases and all the like. But it's really not that different with any number of these other industries. Particularly clothing, fast fashion. And we're really asleep at the wheel when it comes to that.

• 58:59Darin Olien?

  That was a sleeper for me. When I really started looking at, "Oh, my God, that's a big problem." Like, it's the number two biggest polluter on the planet. You can't get your head around, because it's easy to demonize a water bottle because it's floating out in the river and the ocean. And then you go, "Okay, you can get your head around it's going to break down and the microplastics." Well, most of the clothes are woven with petroleum and plastics and plasticizers and formaldehydes and things like that. And that tightly formed shirt and T-shirt that you love so much, the elastic jeans.

• 59:37Rich Roll?

  Anything that stretches a little bit, yeah.

• 59:40Darin Olien?

  Big problem. And people, you know, women are going to be like, "Yeah, that Lycra? Not a good thing, right?" So that Lycra is a petroleum-based, endocrine-disrupting, and now you're sweating in it. You're using it. It's close to your private parts. These things, that's constant inoculation of these chemicals. And you think, like, one of the great examples is the Iconics, which has a T-shirt and blue jeans. And some of the shock came by...

• 1:00:19Darin Olien?

  The, not only the, the thousands of liters of water. There's one that I couldn't verify, but I'm just gonna throw it out there for shock value, but I was trying to verify it. It was, one report said that it was about two, 2,500 liters of water from input of growing the cotton to creating one t-shirt. Now, I dug into that a little more. It's hundreds of liters, without a doubt, per t-shirt. But you have 8,000, you heard that right, 8,000 chemicals that are there to create

• 1:01:03Darin Olien?

  a t-shirt. 8,000 different chemicals. So you've got the chemicals and glyphosate, astrozene, huge spraying, one of the biggest polluters and uses of that, of those pesticides on your non-organic clothing t-shirt, right? So now you're starting already there. And then they're blasting, you know, before they write, they blast now, it's a technique, now they blast with more, right before picking, they blast with more.

• 1:01:42Darin Olien?

  And then that goes to the stripping and the spinning and all of that stuff. So those 8,000 chemicals are now what makes that t-shirt. Not to mention if you have any print on that, that's full of these things called azodides that are not only volatile or organic compounds connected to cancer and things like that. So that's a t-shirt, man. Like, that's fucked up. It's so, so it's-

• 1:02:14Rich Roll?

  But what do you say to the person who's like, "I hear you, man, but aren't you a little bit Chicken Little here? I've been wearing t-shirts for 50 years. Like, I feel pretty good, I'm fine, I don't have cancer." Like, what do you say to that person?

• 1:02:27Darin Olien?

  Well, that's the thing.

• 1:02:28Rich Roll?

  You're an alarmist.

• 1:02:29Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's a great question. Like, I'm not saying that t-shirt, "Put that t-shirt on today." I'm not saying it kills you tomorrow. I'm saying that t-shirt, be aware of how it was created, all of the things that are definitely in that shirt.

• 1:02:48Darin Olien?

  And it's again, the cumul- this, this growing body burden of all of this stuff. Now, it's connected to the destruction of the environment. We can prove that upside down and sideways. It's more of that chemical burden that's being put on you. So I, I say, not to, not, not even getting into the, the horrible conditions of fast fashion, right? Right. It's a, it's a human rights issue as well. Human's rights issue, the slavery that basically happens in order for you to get that cheap t-shirt.

• 1:03:28Darin Olien?

  What I would like to say is that if you can resist getting insecure that you don't have enough clothes and maybe double down on, you know, one new t-shirt every year, and if you can, use organic and not sprayed in formaldehydes and phthalates and things like that, anything. So is that shampoo killing you? Is that lotion killing you tomorrow? No, but it's setting the stage for you to wake up one day and really have an issue. Then, and the, the, the buildup of these chemicals, we, we are starting to see it. We see it in these numbers.

• 1:04:13Darin Olien?

  So we see it in the plummeting of testosterone. We're seeing it in, like I said, the reproductive issues of women. Infertilities of men, the motility, the activity of sperm is, is plummeting. Dr. Leo Trisande has a great book on endocrine disruptor. I think it's called Sicker, Fatter, Poorer. He dives deep. I've had him on my podcast. He dives deep in the endocrine disruption. He's got a lot of great numbers on that. But the, we're sprinting towards our own demise. Like literally the, the most primal aspect of us as humans to keep life moving.

• 1:04:56Darin Olien?

  We are neutering ourselves with all of these things, right? It has been shown even with children in diapers, having the plastic throwaway diapers, that those kids have higher amounts of phthalates and endocrine disrupting, and they don't have a choice. So my whole thing is then, why don't we go back to get those parents organic reusable, washable diapers? And just eliminate part of that exposure?

• 1:05:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the diapers thing was a trip. I mean, when you imagine, you know, a newborn, a pristine newborn, and then you're immediately, you know, placing on this brand new human skin, a product that, I think you said that they found glyphosate?

• 1:05:42Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Rich Roll?

  In disposable diapers, formaldehyde, DBP, DEHP, hormone disruptors, like all this, like, it's insane.

• 1:05:53Darin Olien?

  Yeah. And that's where it's, yeah. And like, what? That's going on in the world?

• 1:05:59Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:06:00Darin Olien?

  That can be sold? And listen, if I had a wand and I could let every mama bear who loves their kids, obviously, and has instinct to pull cars off their kids, right? Want to protect, want their kids to thrive, want them to be healthy. And then you go, they didn't know, they weren't informed at all about these convenience that keep being sold to them. Oh, it's easier, it's convenient, it's da, da, da, da, da. Pampers this and da, da, da, da. So if they knew that, so let's flip on the switch of mama bears

• 1:06:45Darin Olien?

  to realize that the exposures that are coming, not only the food, the talc that got alarmed.

• 1:06:54Rich Roll?

  The formula.

• 1:06:55Darin Olien?

  Yeah, the formula, the heavy metals, the, all of these things, the exposure. And like, again, we go to, how is this possible? I don't know, man. I don't know. But you and I have to continue to talk about it. And I, I hope that people can just continue to learn and expand and become their regulatory body of their body.

• 1:07:24Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:25Darin Olien?

  That's what it comes down to.

• 1:07:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can't outsource these decisions to governmental bodies that you're relying upon for solid information. Like, that's, that's really, you know, the kind of drum that you're banging throughout this book. Like, you gotta shoulder that responsibility for yourself. This is very much a message around, you know, the grassroots movement and the power of community, the power of the individual, to not just have these conversations, to make better choices and to, you know, cultivate community around this so that change can come from the bottom up. We can't sit around and just wait for Washington to deal with it. I had, I had Senator Cory Booker on the podcast recently. And, and one of the things that he says all the time is, change, change doesn't come

• 1:08:11Rich Roll?

  from Washington, it comes to Washington. Right? Like, Washington responds to these sorts of movements. So that's an added kind of responsibility to shoulder as a conscious citizen.

• 1:08:25Darin Olien?

  Totally.

• 1:08:25Rich Roll?

  Right? And if enough people get together and make their voices heard, there will be, you know, a response on Capitol Hill. But to sit on our hands and just wait for that to happen, it's not gonna happen. And when you kind of, you know, when your eyes are open and you look around and you realize we can't even solve the real low hanging fruit problems, like, why do we have single-use plastics? Like, why is water allowed to be in a plastic bottle anymore? Like, it should be, it should be, that should be against the law. Like, I think most people would agree on that. These are not, you know, partisan issues by any stretch of the imagination.

• 1:09:01Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Rich Roll?

  And yet, you know, we'll get all excited about straws for a minute, or, you know, we get distracted by the wrong thing.

• 1:09:08Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Rich Roll?

  When we have these real big problems with, it's not like we don't have solutions to these problems. That's, that's the other thing, too. And, and, you know, your very robust appendix and all the resources make clear, like, you know, this doesn't, you don't have to... Be like Darren and like live in the woods and you know, in a yard or whatever like you can still, you don't have to be a Luddite, like you can live in the world and you don't have to be really all that convenienced at all. You can just make some better choices.

• 1:09:39Darin Olien?

  Yeah, and that's, that's where I, I'm optimistic. Number one, I want people to live a freaking great life. I want them to, I mean, ultimately, the genesis of super life, the genesis of this is, hey, man, like, let's be aware so that you can actually live a dream that you want to have and be in this world. And that's really where it comes from. And so we just have to face some of this stuff, be, be our own advocacy and, and flip on that switch of common sense again, that, I guess, you know, maybe that's jumping a step because we just first need to become aware of the system that's not in our best interest.

• 1:10:20Darin Olien?

  But I am optimistic, every week, I, and I'm not even being dramatic, every week I'm talking to an organization, a company that's doing something better, right? If it's, we talked a little bit before we started about like the Michael Works Company and the Mycelium leather stuff and that, you know, people didn't realize like leather has PFOS on it, right? Cause it does, you know, that's slippery stuff too. So it's like, all of these things are so affected, but there's great people doing great things. And even in great companies, they're trying to do good things.

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  There's, there's tons of really cool innovation. So I would agree with you on that front.

• 1:11:11Rich Roll?

  I think an added ripple of complexity to all of this that began as something well intentioned, but now has become almost a smokescreen is the whole labeling thing, right? Like now, there's all these labels on all these products and we don't really know, like, is this, what does this mean? Like, is this mean anything or was this bought and paid for? Like, I don't know which labels are important, which ones are just greenwashing. So maybe we can have just a conversation, you know, initially just broadly about. What is greenwashing? What is the extent of greenwashing? And, you know, how can we, as, as, you know, conscious consumers who do want to make the right choice,

• 1:11:53Rich Roll?

  you know, how do we, how do we kind of interface with all the marketing and stuff that's on the, you know, the packaging of the products that we're looking to buy?

• 1:12:02Darin Olien?

  Yeah, it's a good one. I mean, greenwashing only came about because of the lexicon that's moving towards, hey, man, I wanna, I wanna have a better choice. A normal person, there was a great study, a normal person doesn't actually want to drink out of a water bottle of plastic. They just don't have another choice. You know, if you go on an airline, you just, you're dealing with it. So the lexicon of the people, the population of people do have this awareness. They just don't have many choices. So what happens is these big organizations, doesn't even have to be big, take this kind of atmosphere and they start labeling things that are misleading.

• 1:12:47Darin Olien?

  And, and, and misleading without the proper backing of what they're actually saying. Or they're saying natural, it's a classic one, that has no backing of what that means. Plus-

• 1:13:02Rich Roll?

  All natural.

• 1:13:03Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, or they just put it in a green, they just, the packaging is-

• 1:13:06Darin Olien?

  Beautiful picture.

• 1:13:07Rich Roll?

  Just put it, yeah, like, you have a couple of different varieties of the same product. One is, one is green. I'm just gonna tip, that, that one's probably better. I'm gonna get that one.

• 1:13:15Darin Olien?

  Yeah, it's green, it's got a great picture and it says, uh, this is a natural scent. Well, you know, having 15 years, 20 years in the supplement world, I knew that there was a problem even then in the, in the flavoring world. This is natural flavor, but then the FDA had all these loopholes to have other flow agents, uh, things in there. So it's the same that exists in these kind of other areas and fragrances in the sense that- Okay, you have natural scent in this example,

• 1:13:55Darin Olien?

  but then you have trade secrets that could have hundreds of chemicals that are not on any label. And the phraseology you're using is just misleading the people towards this. All you did is not change any formula, you didn't make it better, you didn't make it safe, you didn't prove that it's safe, you didn't prove that it was actually naturally safe. But you just put a beautiful picture on it, you called it something, and now you're taking the movement that actually does wanna make that, innately, we do wanna make good choices.

• 1:14:35Darin Olien?

  We don't knowingly wanna hurt our kid by making a choice of a scented candle that's got VOCs all over it, but they're calling it natural scent. You know, so all of these things, they're taking advantage of an impossible group, large population of people that are not doing the incredible research that would take to unpack what that actually means in that natural scent. And that's not okay. It's not okay at all. It would be benign if these things were benign, but they're not benign. They are hijacking our systems.

• 1:15:19Darin Olien?

  They are affecting us neurologically, carcinogenic, endocrine disrupting, testicular cancers, endometriosis, the list continues and it grows at this mounting kind of loop. So the greenwashing is knowingly, and this is where it comes in, the companies are knowingly...

• 1:15:43Darin Olien?

  Misleading people.

• 1:15:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's what makes it so malevolent, right? I mean, they're leveraging language and loopholes to delude the consumer into this, you know, sense that they're making a good choice for themselves. When in fact, it's business as usual. And, you know, we see this in the animal food industry with words or phrases like, you know, cage-free or, you know, free range and all of that. And like, and it makes you think, oh, cage-free, yeah, of course. Or, but you don't actually know what that means. And the, and the real language that polices, you know, what's acceptable and what's not, I think would be shocking to a lot of people. And it just drives a lot of, um, apathy is the wrong word,

• 1:16:28Rich Roll?

  but I think it lulls people into a sense that they are participating in the solution, when in fact, they're not. And that's what makes it particularly dark, I think. And, and, you know, I don't know if evil's the right word, but like, you know, not great, right? And so, for the person who, but there are some labels that are good, right? Like if it's EWG, whatever certified, like they're, so like if somebody's going to the store and they're, they're like, okay, now there's like 10 different little certifications on every product that is even in the range of being like, oh, this is like a, you know, like a natural, organic, conscious, non-GMO, whatever. What are the labels that are actually legit that people should look for? And what are the ones that are bullshit and misleading?

• 1:17:13Darin Olien?

  Well, some of the ones that are misleading is recyclable. Like, so you could put recyclable on a packaging. Like, here's the product, it's in a package, recyclable. And you're like, great, maybe it was a shower curtain. All of it was made out of plastic. What's recyclable? Is it the packaging that's recyclable? Is the rings of the shower curtain recyclable? Is the vinyl weird thing that you're putting, is that recyclable? You don't know. And most of, most of it probably isn't. And then just going off on a tangent for a second on recycling, because you're, again, you're wanting to do it.

• 1:17:57Darin Olien?

  You separate your things and being a good person. I'm recycling, I'm going to the effort. But now new reports even show it's even worse. Only 5% of whatever you think you're recycling is recycled in any storm. So we failed miserably. So that's like saying, take your little blue bin. Dump out 95% of it. And that 95% is, and I say this in the book. Is, there's no, let me say it this way. There's no away. Take my recycling away. Go recycle it. There virtually is none.

• 1:18:40Darin Olien?

  It's not, virtually nonexistent. Only 5%.

• 1:18:44Rich Roll?

  Right, when you put your refuse in the recycling bin. And it comes and it gets picked up by the garbage truck. What is that? Yeah, like a very small fraction of that.

• 1:18:55Darin Olien?

  5%.

• 1:18:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is really disheartening.

• 1:18:58Darin Olien?

  So dump out 95% and stare at it. And going, could I maybe be a little better? At not consuming so much that is using plastic or whatever. Or whatever kind of garbage it is that we think. And most of it, it's so layered. The sophistication at recycling centers, they can't unravel. Hell, most people don't even know that there's a plastic liner in Starbucks coffee. And I'm not picking on Starbucks. But there's a plastic liner in that what you think is a cardboard.

• 1:19:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, they're, they're, oh, they're paper cups?

• 1:19:33Darin Olien?

  Yeah, they're paper cups. So they say, hey, use a paper cup. It's not. There's plastic liner in it. So you can't recycle it. Right? You think you're throwing it at the cardboard, but, and you can't recycle it because there's no ability for most of the recycling centers to break that apart and to like, put it back in the cardboard circulation, put it back in the plastic. So all of these things are infinitely complex. So even saying those words don't mean much, but it's still a greenwashing if you're negligent on what you actually mean, right? So, you know, and there's, I'm not even gonna name the company, but there's, because it would

• 1:20:18Darin Olien?

  cause me a lot of problems with people I know. Uh, there was one company that's like, hey, yeah, recyclable. And then you gotta eat this thing, this bar, and then you send it back to the company and like, who's gonna do that?

• 1:20:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:20:33Darin Olien?

  And you're just-

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  Just take the, take the packaging and mail it back to them?

• 1:20:36Darin Olien?

  Yeah. Okay. Yeah, right. Okay, now you're gonna, so, so again, you use that as a marketing spin, but the percentage of people actually doing that is a few percent, right? If at all. So, yeah, that's a, it's a, I forgot the second party question.

• 1:20:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, the main question, like, and so what are the labels that are valid and can, can, you know, give us confidence that we are making a good choice?

• 1:21:04Darin Olien?

  It's a good one.

• 1:21:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Darin Olien?

  I mean, it's a good one.

• 1:21:06Rich Roll?

  This came up in, in sea spiracy, do you remember? Like the labeling on, on fish and all of that and how corrupt it was? And it's basically a pay to play thing.

• 1:21:14Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah, so like the, the dolphin free was definitely not at all, basically.

• 1:21:20Rich Roll?

  Dolphin safe, yeah, dolphin safe tuna, right?

• 1:21:22Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah, okay. So, yeah, it, you know, from a, you know, starting from like maybe food, from a low residue pesticide perspective, you can go all the way back to pick number nine on the little sticker on Whole Foods. Four and three is indicating pesticides and GMOs and stuff like that. So if there's no sign, you can look at the little sticker and you wanna-

• 1:21:50Rich Roll?

  The stickers that are on the produce.

• 1:21:51Darin Olien?

  So you don't wanna pick nine. So that's not even, that's just a part of the, they're categorizing for the grocery store. So you can hack your way into know at least what that is. Uh, there's, the Environmental Working Group has a great list of the Dirty Dozen. If you, if you don't have access or can't afford organic, then you wanna wash the exposed vegetables and fruit, like, you know, things like pears. Strawberries, peaches, cucumbers, like tho- those kind of things. You want to wash really well and you can eliminate a lot of the

• 1:22:34Darin Olien?

  residues that way, but you don't want to just eat those straight away.

• 1:22:39Darin Olien?

  Yeah, and then of course, organic, like you you want to choose that. I would still wash those foods. And then you all go all, if you want to keep going, farmers markets, know your farmer, how are you growing it? Ask them questions, get to know them. And then, you know, grow your own food, you know? Let's bring back that piece, because that could help, you know, a variety of things, food security clearly could help out a lot and, you know, we have, you know, in the late 1800s, 90% of the of Americans were

• 1:23:26Darin Olien?

  using their land as their food, right? And now, now 2%, right? Of of the farmers, of the people in the country are making all of our food. So that's a whole rabbit hole of the agricultural side. So get to know your food, grow as much as you can.

• 1:23:46Rich Roll?

  But unlike the, like, like for personal care products or cleaning products, is there any kind of responsible labeling going on? In, you know, other kind of consumer product sectors?

• 1:23:58Darin Olien?

  Yeah, I mean, you you can, I mean, the the best thing is to first indication is what kind of packaging they're using, because you can also see the the the kind of the scope of what the company is trying to do. If they're just standard plastic, then, okay.

• 1:24:20Darin Olien?

  But I would turn it over. You know, it's that whole thing of like, if you can understand what you're especially like personal care and lotions and things like that. If they don't have, you know, phthalates, well, you don't know they have phthalates, but if they're in plastic containers, they probably have phthalates in because the phthalates are the plasticizers that make plastic malleable, right? So, so I, I think the best thing to do is make sure when they're, if they're saying parfum or, or fragrance and they're not proudly disclosing what that is for them. And it's like, this is lavender, this is rose, essential oil, then I would run.

• 1:25:05Darin Olien?

  Like for sure, you're going to be getting a cocktail. So though, and fragrances are something to become aware of because they're, they're almost in every beauty product, uh, personal care. So if a company is proudly saying what their fragrance is, um, then that's a probably good indicator of a natural kind of rest of the formula. And, and then you want to look for, you know, whole, uh, things that you can,

• 1:25:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:40Darin Olien?

  you know, pronounce.

• 1:25:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:42Darin Olien?

  And understand.

• 1:25:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the common sense aspect of it. I was just wondering whether there's like some kind of, you know, cha-ching thing like right on the, oh, I know. Okay. But if there's not like, yes.

• 1:25:52Darin Olien?

  Campaign for safe cosmetics. I don't know if they have a, a symbol. EWG does, they do great work. I was still kind of hint, kind of playing with the idea of doing a marketplace, uh, with a kind of verifiable vetting process. I'm actually, I'm pretty serious about it. I'm, I'm poking around and what that would actually look like. It's massive undertaking, but, but again,

• 1:26:22Darin Olien?

  Having to create something that you thought was already created by the governments and the regulations and you go, well, okay, so we as the people have to create it.

• 1:26:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I feel like that should be the case in clothing too. Like, who's ever thought of putting a label on clothing about how it was, you know, it's like, like, we don't even think about that. But if you watch the true cost and, you know, Livia Firth, right? Like, leading the charge and, you know, trying to, you know, bring us into reality on what's going on there, like, there's a lot of work that could be done that seems easy and for some reason, you know, it just, it just takes a tremendous amount of effort to like, it's a Sisyphean task, right, of pushing this bull or up the hill.

• 1:27:12Darin Olien?

  Yeah, because it's a, you know, we're, again, we're given a system having in it upon birth and to now go about it, you know, again, we, Paul Hawken, he draw down that first book when he really spent the time realizing if you invest in it, man, it's gonna not only pay your bottom line, but it's gonna pay the bottom line of being literally regenerative along the way, so.

• 1:27:41Rich Roll?

  It's in your financial interest to get on board with this. And then, and then his more recent book is just all solutions. Like, look, look at all this stuff that actually already exists right now that we could be doing if we just focused on it a little bit better.

• 1:27:56Darin Olien?

  And that's why we need just strong, bold people, business owners, entrepreneurial people, that there is more and more capital that's being kind of, a swell is definitely coming, but we need strong people to continue to open up this lane so that we can celebrate these solutions. I mean, you know, I'm not going to say what the project is necessarily, but working on a different television show and it's, it's all based in celebrating the solution of some of these things that, again, highlight what is going, because I, I think that within all of this.

• 1:28:37Darin Olien?

  Even if everyone skipped the book and went to the last third of the book, right? And just went to like, okay, well, what's better product?

• 1:28:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, give me that. Just tell me what to do.

• 1:28:45Darin Olien?

  Tell me what to do. Well, it's there, right? At least, again, that's

• 1:28:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like how it all starts with a DIY. Each one of the sections, though, starts with a DIY, like make your own. Here's how you make your own, whatever it is. And then, hey, if you don't want to do that, here's five products that are pretty good.

• 1:29:00Darin Olien?

  Yeah, like baking soda, hydrogen peroxide. These things are great to clean your vegetables and the, you know, it's super, super easy. And again, we've become delusioned to think that we need to buy this special product that the television told us to, to adopt. When it's like, clean your house with some white vinegar and some water and put some essential oil in it. Now it's gifting to your life and your family and your health.

• 1:29:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think it's important to also point out that, you know, to your point at the outset of this conversation, that these, these issues are extremely complex and it's not about good guys and bad guys or corporations being evil. There is a lot of really interesting innovation in the kind of startup space. But there's also some really valid and interesting sustainability programs in the Fortune 500 space. Like Walmart is doing interesting things. I know that you have a relationship with Visa and they're, you know, trying to really, you know, be a leader in that space. And I was reminded of this episode of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast, Revisionist History.

• 1:30:18Rich Roll?

  And I don't know if this was SpawnCon or something, but he did an interview. He like spent a day at Procter and Gamble with some scientist who worked for, you know, like on Tide or whatever their laundry detergent. And he was trying to like revise our assumptions around chemicals in cleaning products being bad by illustrating that this guy Had come up with a new formula for laundry detergent that I'm sure had all kinds of chemicals in it, but the big thing in that space is can you get stains out? Can you clean the clothes in cold water?

• 1:30:57Rich Roll?

  And, and, and through his innovation, realized that, that, you know, his formula would reduce people's reliance on having to use hot water to clean their clothes. So even though it has chemicals in it, there is an environmental argument to support the viability of such a product, which speaks to the complexity. And I don't know if this is true or not, but like, you know, that's why it's complicated. Like, yes, you use these natural soaps and all that, but you end up having to use more hot water because they don't fucking actually work, you know? Or you have to use twice as much of whatever product because it's just, even though it's not made with all of these things, it just doesn't quite do the job like the fatal convenience

• 1:31:42Rich Roll?

  does.

• 1:31:43Darin Olien?

  Yeah, and you pull the string on that, like, okay, well, what's the big deal? It's hot water. Well, how did it become hot? Like, there was a power input to create that hot water.

• 1:31:52Rich Roll?

  Right, so you're, yeah, like by using hot water, more hot water with your natural soap, you may in fact be unwittingly making the environmental problem worse, not better.

• 1:32:05Darin Olien?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know what, the amount of hot water, but, but, but, but that is a good example of, it's just like, let, let's look at this stuff, clearly minimizing chemical exposure, like, being transparent, because overnight, if everyone was transparent with what was actually in their products, most of these big companies, they would have to shut that stuff down, because it's, it's knowing, there's trade secrets and fragrances and things like that, they would have to disclose. It would be a... And make Twitter files look like a little schoolboy, you know?

• 1:32:47Darin Olien?

  So, you know, this is, again, you are buying products. You are using products in your home, in your car, in your clothing, on your, on your body, on your children, what you're consuming, the water, the things. And you are getting nailed with these chemicals all the time. And it is, I can be absolutely clear that the accumulative body burden is absolutely affecting your body. Some more than others.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Yeah, I don't, I don't question you at all on that front. Can we talk about, you know, getting into the complexity of things again? Let's talk about palm oil a little bit. You went deep on palm oil. Palm oil is in lots of things, food products and other products. And there really is no valid argument to support the continued ingestion of this product, given what it does to the planet.

• 1:33:56Darin Olien?

  Yeah, I mean, this is just, you know, it goes back to the, to the superfood hunting side of things a bit. When you realize the massive, you know, work that goes into the production chain of stuff. And, and out of sight, out of mind for people. When, when you are destroying rainforests and habitats. You know, the symbol of that orangutan, I don't know if I've ever told you the orangutan story?

• 1:34:32Rich Roll?

  I don't think so.

• 1:34:32Darin Olien?

  The cellphone story of my orangutan that stole it?

• 1:34:38Darin Olien?

  Maybe I'll save it, but.

• 1:34:39Rich Roll?

  I don't know. Now I feel like I need to hear that story.

• 1:34:41Darin Olien?

  Yeah. So, I mean, just to button up palm oil, there's no real benefit to ingesting it. And it is one of those things, unless you literally are fair traded and you have an organization that can validate the fair trade of that said palm oil. That would be the only reason to use the palm oil. But anyway, it's a funny.

• 1:35:15Darin Olien?

  Funny story with our friend. What's his name? The microbiologist.

• 1:35:20Rich Roll?

  Compton Rom.

• 1:35:21Darin Olien?

  Compton Rom.

• 1:35:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna lightly chastise you for not including Ascended Health in your, in your syllabus of, of products. Cause he makes amazing shit.

• 1:35:31Darin Olien?

  I forgot.

• 1:35:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:33Darin Olien?

  Kind of all about it, in a sense.

• 1:35:34Rich Roll?

  His I Am Beautiful oil is like, I use it every day. I love it. And he's, he's got amazing toothpaste. He's got all kinds of.

• 1:35:41Darin Olien?

  And he's still selling it.

• 1:35:42Rich Roll?

  His toothpaste is like a probiotic.

• 1:35:44Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Rich Roll?

  Like, it's not just not bad for you. It's actually benefiting your microbiome by using it.

• 1:35:50Darin Olien?

  So, Compton, sorry you weren't in the book, but I, I, big props to you right, right now. Ascended Health.

• 1:35:57Rich Roll?

  He's the one who originally introduced us.

• 1:35:59Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:00Rich Roll?

  Do you remember that?

• 1:36:00Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah. That's right. So he and I were in Cambodia and we were hunting. He came with, cause he was like, he was like, I wanna get the microbes of what you're.

• 1:36:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:12Darin Olien?

  Like, I'm gonna get the microbes, you'll get the fruit or the veggie or the.

• 1:36:15Rich Roll?

  You're the superfood hunter. He's the microbe hunter.

• 1:36:18Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:18Rich Roll?

  He literally has traveled the world and just, he'll like, talk for hours about the soil or wherever he visited.

• 1:36:24Darin Olien?

  He goes, get me, and he was in constant, I was in the Philippines, get me the soil. No, no, no, no, no. It's always interesting when you're coming from the, you know, the custom agent. Have you been in contact with, you know, soil?

• 1:36:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, right. You fill out the card.

• 1:36:39Darin Olien?

  No.

• 1:36:40Rich Roll?

  Livestock.

• 1:36:41Darin Olien?

  Yeah. Livestock and so, so, so just a quick story, but it's, so we were in Cambodia looking for a bunch of, of superfoods. And the high level minister of agriculture, there was flooding at the time. So he kept setting up meetings, but then had to leave and, and jump on a helicopter and blah, blah, blah. So he said, Hey, just go to my farm. So I'm like, okay, so gave it directions. We go to this farm, this big gate and kind of what seemed to be a dilapidated zoo. And so we're on his farm with all these, you know, mango steam and moranga and all of these things.

• 1:37:27Darin Olien?

  And we're looking around and like, there's literally caged animals here that were saved from zoos from who knows where. So Compton is, he goes, I hear him laughing. He goes, come here. And he's, there was a, an orangutan in a cage. And number one, I hate all animals in cages. I, I just, it hurts me to my core, but I never saw an orangutan before. So I run over there and no sooner did I pull up my cell phone to take a picture of this guy. This big seven foot wingspan orangutan slapped the cell phone out of my hand.

• 1:38:10Darin Olien?

  It fell down in between the fence. I, I was behind and the cage and he grabbed it before I could grab it and he pulled it in the cage. And so now I'm going, oh my God, he has my cell phone. And I see him, all of the activity in his eyes. And then he was gonna bite it. And so I started making noises. I didn't know what to do. Compton's laughing his ass off the entire time. Cause it happened so fast. And so anyway, I cut to a guy, a little worker that was there, went in the cage. And he got on the back of this big male orangutan and he was wrestling with it. And the cell phone fell.

• 1:38:53Darin Olien?

  He took it and just flung it out of the cage. I got it. He ran out of the cage and there was another worker that was still in there. And it was a little tricky for him to get out. He didn't get hurt and they saved my cell phone. And it was stolen by an orangutan.

• 1:39:10Rich Roll?

  In some kind of weird Cambodian tiger king situation.

• 1:39:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I don't know how we got to that. What were we talking about?

• 1:39:20Darin Olien?

  Uh, palm oil.

• 1:39:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:39:23Darin Olien?

  Orangutan.

• 1:39:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so, I mean, palm oil, no bueno.

• 1:39:26Darin Olien?

  No bueno.

• 1:39:27Rich Roll?

  Basically. If there is a controversial section in this book, aside from telling people not to eat meat, you're gonna, you're gonna get some, you're gonna get some people pushing back on that probably because this is not like a plant-based, you know, manifesto. You know, I know you and I know where you stand on nutrition. There probably will be some people who are like totally on board and then they get to that and they're like, whoa, hold on, hold on a second. We could table that though because we've talked through that.

• 1:39:56Darin Olien?

  Yeah, normal eating of meat, you know, that full of chemicals, you know that growth hormone, antibiotic resistant activity. I actually gave good solutions for people who want to eat meat in that section. So I swallowed my pride and said, hey, I'm under no delusion that everyone's gonna go plant-based tomorrow. So in that instance, you have a section where I've vetted some companies so you can go and have a better choice.

• 1:40:28Rich Roll?

  Second to that is the section on electromagnetic radiation. So let's spend a couple of minutes kind of exploring that. This is really the invisible elephant, the truly invisible elephant here. And, and it's a, it's a topic that I admit I don't know very much about. I know that there's a certain kind of conspiracy minded camp that will go to great lengths to make sure that they are in a, in an environment where there is no, you know, EMR or whatever, you know, Faraday tents and all the like, right? So walk me through like a very basic understanding of what, what we're talking about here when

• 1:41:13Rich Roll?

  we're talking about EMRs, EMFs, Wi-Fi, microwaves, the differences in these various forms of radiation that we expose ourselves to, whether it's through X-rays or when we're, you know, at the airport going through scanning. What should we truly be concerned about? What is safe? What isn't safe?

• 1:41:35Rich Roll?

  Because I think in addition to there just not being a lot of education around this, there's a lack of understanding, there is a sense like, yeah, I don't, this probably isn't so good, but like, this is the way we do things and we're just gonna have to live with it. And then there's, you know, some more kind of radical thoughts around 5G, etc. I mean, that's a topic that is radioactive, you know, in its own right to even talk about because it got co-opted during COVID and it made, you know, just having any kind of reasonable conversation about it impossible. So let me just, I'm just gonna throw that radioactive isotope over to you and you tell me what's what.

• 1:42:16Darin Olien?

  Well, the first thing is, without a doubt, it's a perfect fatal convenience, right? And we absolutely need more studies. Absolutely. There's enough data to show that there's a problem from my perspective. You know, just brain imaging of a cellphone up to a child's head showing the radiation going all the way through the skull because the, not only the skull thickness, but the immune system as well. So you're really talking

• 1:42:54Darin Olien?

  about, you know, just, I mean, this is infinitely complex, but you're talking about, so ionizing radiation, so if there's a spectrum of frequency, ionizing radiation is X-rays, radioactive isotopes, uranium, it will rip your DNA apart, electrons, and you're, it will affect you and epidemiologically it will affect you, right? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about non-ionizing. The assumption that sets this up, I think,

• 1:43:35Darin Olien?

  from a bad trajectory, is assuming that as long as it's not ionizing, it's safe because we're not seeing it directly ripping apart the DNA.

• 1:43:52Darin Olien?

  There was a lot of research that was, and you're right. It gets so wacky. When it comes to looking at this, it's just like, oh my God. Why is it like, literally looks like a weird lady talking about Area 51? But when you really start digging, and I believe me, this was my, probably my longest chapter. Because I had to get through, I had to reach out to researchers to point me into different directions.

• 1:44:28Darin Olien?

  The Invisible Rainbow was a good research, good book by a doctor that I could at least go, okay, that's, you know, even starting the look at the history of, of just electricity. So I had to think about the consumption of information.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  Let's start with, yeah, the beginning, let's start with Edison and light bulbs. And go from there.

• 1:44:53Darin Olien?

  Yeah, so, but, but it's important to go, I'll just make it short, but it's important to realize that there was data to show when we put up the first telegraph, that that was causing harm in migratory patterns. And then as we continued UHF and things like that, in the, in the, in the frequency generation and radio frequency, they saw that, that there was some pretty direct correlations to extincting the red sparrow. And there was even some anecdotal evidence to show that even tracking devices

• 1:45:33Darin Olien?

  were messing with migratory patterns of, of, of cats, of other mammals and things like that. So every time you have electricity, you have also a magnetic field. And, and we are magnetic, right? So we, we can, the easy one is the heartbeat, right? And so diagnostically, we know this and we use that. So we are sensitive. And just to add another aspect to it.

• 1:46:08Darin Olien?

  My dad, chemical sensitivity, 20 years ago, I meet a doctor, Dr. Mosin-Hurmanish, who changed kind of the way I looked at nutrition, came from sixth-generation herb farmers, and then he was a mathematician, as well as a master in understanding nutrition on a cellular level. He was the first, but he gave me the term fatal convenience. He was the first person 25 years ago to say, electrically, our DNA is sending signals through the RNA, right? And chemically, too. But electrically, those things are happening. And so the instructions

• 1:46:52Darin Olien?

  of the proteins going to replace maybe senescence cells are a part of the process, always, millions and millions and billions of times a day. And he started pointing, 25 years ago, he started pointing me to research to go, this is the electric field of a cellphone is affecting that DNA. And now, I was looking at many studies showing that the gliomas, where you'd have a cellphone up to your head, was creating these tumor-like, not even like, but these

• 1:47:31Darin Olien?

  tumors. So then, multiple studies showing that. So you're like, okay, well, let's study it some more, instead of blowing it off. So these kinds of things started to show up. Now, the other areas, which was weirdly similar to a chemical exposure of ethylate or something, that it would show radical oxygen species, like free radicals, as like, the mechanism of cellular metabolism was being thwarted and stressed. And then you would see things that really scared me that I didn't know. And there was one study that

• 1:48:14Darin Olien?

  showed that this protein, albumin, that is not supposed to be in the brain, showed that by the exposure of a cellphone frequency...

• 1:48:31Darin Olien?

  Opened up the blood-brain barrier to allow that albumen to show up in the brain, which had a cascade of problems in the brain. So similar to the exposure, I saw stress, I saw free radical oxygen species, I saw stress of the immune system. And these things, and then obviously the blood-brain barrier, which is a really bad scenario to open up. And those came back in many studies, and my fact-checkers checked them again. And I was like, oh my God, this is like a chemical exposure.

• 1:49:13Darin Olien?

  And the other part of it was lowering sperm counts. So this exposure of a cellphone, and then you're going, wow, the proximity is an issue here. So the proximity of this device in your head, on your laps, in your pockets, and the workout mama who's putting the cellphone in her sports bra, these are problems. And these are proximal problems. And again, this was, dude, this was a rabbit hole, right? And I had to conclude, I had to stop some of this stuff because I couldn't find enough information.

• 1:49:57Darin Olien?

  But the history started me on this path. The telecommunications, I'll say it here, I believe that the telecommunications business knows about this stuff. They know about these studies. Something interesting happened, I didn't really talk about it in the book, but in 1993, the EPA, which I think was right in terms of it was their responsibility to study the electromagnetic fields of cell towers and cellphones, that they had their guy study this and found.

• 1:50:39Darin Olien?

  Many of the things that I explained to you and said, okay, you guys hired me. We need to tell the consumer. And overnight, it was shifted to the FCC and the EPA's funding dried up.

• 1:50:54Rich Roll?

  What year was that? How long ago was that?

• 1:50:56Darin Olien?

  Ninety-four.

• 1:50:57Rich Roll?

  And there's documentation on this?

• 1:50:59Darin Olien?

  Yeah. I read countless articles. I even read an old fax that was this guy's report. So then, so now the FCC holds it. So now the FCC is 20 years behind the technology. And they're only basically saying things are safe based on thermal reaction. If it burns you, then it's not safe. They're not taking into the account the frequency waves, the 1, 2, 3G, 4G, 5G, all of these things, and the magnetic fields that come with all of this stuff. They're not including that.

• 1:51:43Darin Olien?

  They don't even mention any of it when it was showing up in the initial study. So, yeah, man, this is crazy that all of this stuff. But the thing that kept coming up over and over again is, without a doubt, there's real data to show that a child's immune system is compromised, it is affected, and you are stressed out. You are stressed out. I'm stressed out on a molecular level.

• 1:52:13Rich Roll?

  Not from what you're looking at on the device, but from the device itself.

• 1:52:17Darin Olien?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, do you have a sense of ongoing research and studies that are occurring now around this? Are people, like, I guess what I'm saying is, or my thought is, certainly, we should be studying this. This is ubiquitous. We all use these things. You know, I know what it's like. I used to hold the thing to my ear. And if you're on a long phone call, like, not only does it start to get hot there, like, it doesn't feel like, I start to get a headache, like, I'm like, that, I know that that's not right. You know, I don't know what's going on, but it, you know, I don't do that anymore, right? But I use Bluetooth and I use Wi-Fi and, you know, we run our studio with tons of electronic equipment and, you know, there's all kinds of...

• 1:53:02Rich Roll?

  Waves and frequencies pinging around constantly and we just, this is part of what it is to be a modern human being in the developed world. And, you know, look, I listened to the radio when I was a kid and I had a TV like you did with the antenna and that's coming through the air and I'm okay. So is there really anything to worry about here? And, you know, if you want to talk about 5G, then you might as well put your tinfoil hat on and go talk to David Icke and you guys can chat about the lizard people, right? Like you can't, it's, but we have to be able to talk, we have to be able to like have a rational, evidence-based, science-backed conversation about this thing that is in the hands of billions of people all over the world.

• 1:53:46Darin Olien?

  Hundred percent. And unfortunately, through all of that, it got co-opted into all these other side conversations about, I just wanted to bring it down to what is it doing? And there's multiple studies showing that it's causing an immune response. The blood-brain barrier freaked me out. The lower immune system that's not kind of up to par yet as a child is, they're much more affected. It is causing stress. And so it definitely needs

• 1:54:25Darin Olien?

  more studies and it definitely needs the attention that it deserves. And the FCC has to update their understanding, not even their understanding, but their health measures.

• 1:54:41Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, the FCC, sorry to step on your words, but the FCC is, its mandate is to regulate the communications industry. It's not meant, it's not set up to look out for the, you know, the health considerations of, you know, what these communications companies are doing. That's, that's the, you know, the Department of Health and the Environmental Protection. There are other organizations that it sounds like, based on what you said, were divested of their authority to kind of police and regulate that. Is that the case?

• 1:55:14Darin Olien?

  Yeah, it's weird. I mean, I don't know what really happened, but I just know that that that switch happened, that the EPA definitely was studying telecommunications.

• 1:55:26Darin Olien?

  Kind of through the the funding, I think, of the telecommunications companies. And then when the researcher, I forget his name off the top of my head, Carlos something. And and then he came out with, hey, man, this is what I found. And he was wanting to share it. And then let's tell everybody. And, you know, again, I know this sounds weird, but if I wasn't reading it, I'd be like, what the hell? Like, again, what the hell shows up in a lot of these things in the book? Like, what the hell is the PFOS doing on my child's diaper? And my, like, why is elastane in my clothes is causing me stress? So so this one was a massive one.

• 1:56:11Darin Olien?

  I I I'm just, I'm worried because, obviously, 1, 2, 3, 4G, 5G, they're all here. It doesn't, it's just because we're switching to 5G and it's a little different milli- millimeter wave, it doesn't travel as far, so they have to put up more towers. And that means just more electrical pollution. And then on top of it, you know, about 40,000 to 50,000 satellites, these microsatellites that they want to blanket the earth so that we can quote unquote, use this facetiously, smartify the world.

• 1:56:53Darin Olien?

  Hey, man, like, let's, let's study this stuff. I I don't want the electrical pollution of things that I'm seeing strong indicators that we, at least, let's frickin' study it. Like, so again, let's have a, I'm not the expert in it. I don't know, but I've read a huge amount that says, this is not.

• 1:57:20Darin Olien?

  Clean. There's some dangers present here.

• 1:57:23Rich Roll?

  There's this Swedish study that you talk about in the book that describes this thing they call the microwave syndrome, in which, in this study, there was a couple living in an apartment that began to suffer from a long list of symptoms like fatigue and they couldn't sleep, nosebleeds, tinnitus, skin problems, dizziness, concentration issues, heart palpitations, all of which decreased or disappeared within a day after they moved to another home with significantly lower radiation. All the conditions they suffered under exposure to 5G radio waves are identical to those

• 1:58:03Rich Roll?

  first described more than 50 years ago by people who received whole-body microwave radiation. Now, is that a study if it's a couple? Like, it's almost anecdotal? Like, I don't know that you can really extract from that anything all that meaningful from a scientific perspective, but from an anecdotal perspective, like, okay, well, that's sort of concerning.

• 1:58:27Darin Olien?

  Yeah, yeah, and again, you know, I gave those examples simply because it's happening to many people, similar to my father, like, two great tech wellness companies, one's literally called Tech Wellness, another company out of the UK is called Conscious Spaces. Both of those women who started those companies were electro-sensitive, so they started minimizing companies. We're not talking about the famous sticker to put on your, we're talking about blocking devices, we're talking about plugging back in, turning off Wi-Fi, turning off at night. And that's the thing, if people, like, one of the minimal things that you can do is turn off your Wi-Fi at night, right?

• 1:59:12Darin Olien?

  That's a stress that you don't need and you're not using. So, and, because we go on to talk about the multiple mice studies that start to show up around the blood-brain barrier, the immune response, and things like that. So, yeah, there's a, anecdotal, there's tons, similar to my father.

• 1:59:34Rich Roll?

  It's a trip, man. Did you think when you were putting this book together, like, maybe I should just leave the whole 5G thing out of it?

• 1:59:41Darin Olien?

  For sure. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's, there's too much compelling information to just leave it, you know? It's like, it's, it's... The 5G side of it is we are, think about the theme here. We are, all of these fatal conveniences that we're talking about, they haven't done the proper studies to deem them safe. And there's, it's the same playbook. They haven't proven that 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G are completely safe. So I'm just raising my hand going, hey, man, before we're blasting us all the time 24/7 and we don't have a choice,

• 2:00:25Darin Olien?

  let's dig into it. Tell me that it's safe, not just, you know, of course it's safe. And, uh, you know, no. We need double bind control trials to show me, to prove that... Please disprove the, the research studies that, that I read. Please disprove them. Show me. Like, we need this kind of action and actionable things. And the, the awareness that I hope everyone starts to understand is there are things that are going on in this world that unfortunately have greater motivations than the, the health of us

• 2:01:09Darin Olien?

  and our environment. And we need to, you know, hold more accountability for some of these people so that we can, you know, again, we have numbers on our side. So let's turn on that common sense and just ask questions, man. Like, let's ask for these things, for change, and ask these questions so that we can like, go, okay, prove to me they're safe. And I'm good. So I, in the meantime, I use blocking safe sleeve on it. I use these other companies. I plug back in. By the way, plugging in is a lot faster.

• 2:01:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just ethernet it. And you do, you're like, oh, here are some cases you can use. And here's some other thing, you know, you can go all the way to the extreme using the Faraday temp, you know, to like really block it out and go full Ben Greenfield on the whole thing. But there are very simple fixes that, that, you know, are not that inconvenient.

• 2:02:04Darin Olien?

  Hundred percent.

• 2:02:06Rich Roll?

  Which is the case for all the categories throughout the book. So again, in the appendices, all sorts of suggestions, products that you vetted, et cetera. But I think, you know, to kind of close this out and, and, you know, bring this to some level of finality for today. There is a sense that I have that one could read this and be like overwhelmed, like, okay, well, like, okay, you don't have, you only have to change one thing, which is basically everything, like every single product in your house, every appliance that you have, the paint on your walls and the cart, you gotta strip out the carpets and throw your mattress out and like, get rid of all your clothes. Like, it's a lot, dude, right? So if somebody's embarking on this journey and they're like, okay, well, I gotta start

• 2:02:47Rich Roll?

  somewhere, like, what are the, what are the, you know, the things that are the most important to address first, maybe paired with the easiest changes or most convenient changes to make to, you know, launch somebody on their own, you know, version of your journey?

• 2:03:03Darin Olien?

  Yeah, great question, Rich. I mean, I, I think of it in this way. Go in to out. So the vulnerability of opening your mouth and consuming a liquid or water or food, start there, because that, that is, there's plenty. So probably the easiest one is filter your water. Because we know that that's

• 2:03:26Darin Olien?

  That's affecting 98% of many parts of the country in PFOS and microplastics. So filter your water, an RO system, distillation, RO is super easy.

• 2:03:39Rich Roll?

  RO is reverse osmosis.

• 2:03:40Darin Olien?

  Yep, reverse osmosis. And again, like I've said many times before, add some unrefined salt. And also, not all Himalayan salt is created equal. Not all salt is, it can be microplastics and that stuff too. But so go to places like Real Salt, there's a mine in Utah, or the original Himalayan salt. It's got a long, great track record, things like that. So add the stuff back in. And then, you know, what else are you consuming? So looking at your food, containers wrapping your food.

• 2:04:15Darin Olien?

  Hot, hot food wrapped in plastic is a perfect prescription for phthalates, PFOS, microplastics, estrogens, all of that stuff. So minimize that, right? And then minimize ultra-processed food because everything from heavy metals and PFOS and other bisphenols are showing up also in that. So food is a good water beverage food. And then longer things that you're putting on your body. So what I mean by that is lotions that are staying on your body.

• 2:05:00Darin Olien?

  These things you should be looking for natural products, many of which I've vetted in there that are clean and healthy for your skin and doesn't disrupt that precious microbiome. And then things like shampoos and conditioners, they're not staying on the largest portions of your body as much. But then again, just think of it, keep going out. Improve your bathroom situation. I have this great company that I like called Byte, Byte Toothpaste.

• 2:05:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I got some, they sent me some of their products.

• 2:05:36Darin Olien?

  They're incredible.

• 2:05:37Rich Roll?

  They're like tablets for brushing your teeth, right?

• 2:05:39Darin Olien?

  Yeah, so you throw a tablet in, you bite down, you just brush normally. And then it's all compostable, refillable glass jars. You're eliminating that, the harsh chemicals, then stabilizers and...

• 2:05:52Darin Olien?

  Things in your toothpaste because that's a chemical soup. So again, that's going in your mouth, dental floss.

• 2:06:01Rich Roll?

  That was a big one, too.

• 2:06:03Darin Olien?

  So that slippery little sliding, guess what that is? PFOS, man. Don't put that in your mouth. That's crazy. So, you know, what I do is I get a bamboo charcoal dental floss. I just wet it and it's basically as good. So just wet it first, boom. You don't have to put PFOS in your mouth ever again.

• 2:06:24Rich Roll?

  I'm disappointed that you don't make your own dental floss, though.

• 2:06:29Darin Olien?

  Weaving it in the back forty.

• 2:06:31Rich Roll?

  Sorry, Rich, I'm running late to the podcast.

• 2:06:35Darin Olien?

  I got this yucca, yucca plant would be good. Actually pull that apart, that would actually work. I'm gonna do a reel on Instagram just for you.

• 2:06:44Rich Roll?

  All right, good.

• 2:06:45Darin Olien?

  And then, you know, work your way out, work your way out to your clothing and be more responsible like that. Work your way out to your home, what kind of cleaning products, things like that. And just keep, you know, moving forward. You don't have to be perfect, but you're just moving forward to clean up your environment so that you can have the best life ever.

• 2:07:06Rich Roll?

  Right on, man. I love you, buddy. You did a great job with this book. It's a real act of public service. And I think it's gonna do really well, man. Can't wait for it to be out in the world and start impacting people. So we can change the world.

• 2:07:23Darin Olien?

  Thanks, dude. Yeah, it's like a guide, I think, that I hope that people can just open it up and learn a little something every day and start applying it. So that was a big lift, for sure.

• 2:07:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and anything else up on the horizon that you want to talk about? You got a lot of shit going on. We could spend five more hours talking about all the projects you got your muddy paws in.

• 2:07:49Darin Olien?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, down to earth.

• 2:07:53Rich Roll?

  Season three?

• 2:07:55Darin Olien?

  It doesn't look like it's gonna happen. Uh, there's some challenges with many different things, but not gonna divulge it, but I hinted at it. I am working on some really cool other television projects that are, I'm stoked about. And again, all solution based moving forward, still working to build out my house.

• 2:08:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, still in the year, working on getting the, uh, the sustainable housing project up on its feet.

• 2:08:27Darin Olien?

  Yeah. And you know, I got a new partner with Barucas with Steve Fabos and it cleaned up a lot of things. So I'm, I'm so excited for that business and that nut to get out, putting my formulator hat back on. So I'm formulating some stuff with, with the nut and other superfoods and stuff. So that I'm stoked about. And then, you know, working in the clean energy space with my crazy friends uh, in the science community and um, clean energy tech. So that's some of the stuff that people don't know much about because it's not public, but we're working with governments around the world and um, uh, New Zealand, Australia, uh, Mexico,

• 2:09:08Darin Olien?

  uh, and, and, and here in the States too, of creating clean power. And that's a whole nother thing, but it just helps to, you know, you know, we're here. And so I just wanna give it my best.

• 2:09:22Rich Roll?

  Right on, man. Yeah. Well, maybe you can come back and we can do a whole clean energy conversation. In the meantime, Barucas, you know, this is, we didn't even mention Barucas until the very end here, but um, is it available nationwide? Can people overseas get it? If people wanna, you gotta check out Barucas Nut.

• 2:09:41Darin Olien?

  Oh man.

• 2:09:42Rich Roll?

  Go listen to our other podcast about it, but a delicious, super nutritious, super food, uh, nut product that is your company.

• 2:09:51Darin Olien?

  Yeah, it's the greatest, it's the greatest nut ever. I mean, it literally checks all the boxes. Uh, and meaning that it's, we had a, which maybe you didn't know, we had a third party Swiss company do an audit of our process of how we collect the nut, how we work with the nut, how we deliver the nut and the whole process of fair trade and planting trees and supporting the biome and the Sahadu and we, we. Rated higher than any company that they've ever tested. So we're a carbon sink by us literally just being in business today. And we're still improving on that process. So yeah, people can get the product nationwide. I really hope that the UK and other places open up soon.

• 2:10:38Darin Olien?

  But it's delicious. It's my passion and it kind of represents the superfood side of me because it gets to support the people there, help a biome that's being hurt with deforestation. And the customers get to not only have the micronutrients of a wild food, but they get to enjoy it as well. And all your guests now will be.

• 2:11:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you gotta, you gotta keep us stocked over here.

• 2:11:05Darin Olien?

  I will.

• 2:11:05Rich Roll?

  I will happily pawn them off on every guest that walks in here. So I assume it's in, I know it's in a variety of supermarkets here, but should people try to buy it online or should they look for it in their like natural foods market? Or?

• 2:11:19Darin Olien?

  Well, you can certainly help us out by asking for your local grocer to carry it. And then they'll, you know, we're going to do some bigger campaigns, but you can get it online. And most people don't know, we have an amazing butter and we have the chocolate covered. Because early, in the early days, we would be stocked up and then we'd lose, we didn't have the mechanism sorted out. So we would be start and stop. So now we're guns blazing.

• 2:11:43Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Barucas.com.

• 2:11:45Darin Olien?

  Barucas.com, baby.

• 2:11:46Rich Roll?

  In the meantime, pick up Fatal Conveniences and just sit quietly at home and await Darren's next appearance on the podcast, whenever that might be. Like I said, I love you, buddy.

• 2:11:57Darin Olien?

  Love you too.

• 2:11:58Rich Roll?

  And I'm here to support you.

• 2:12:00Darin Olien?

  Love you. Thank you, brother.

• 2:12:02Rich Roll?

  Cheers. Peace. Plants.

• 2:12:14Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at mealplaner.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course, awesome and

• 2:12:58Rich Roll?

  very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors, who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back

• 2:13:42Rich Roll?

  in 2012, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.