In This Relationship What Is "I" and What is "We"?

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? They grew up with traumatic backgrounds, met in college, immigrated to the US together. They've built stability and security, and now one of them longs for more freedom. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:26Speaker 00

  This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence. It may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  I am pretty outgoing and I can be a little loud sometimes. He's much more reserved than I am.

• 1:42Speaker 04

  The first time that he got in my radar, I was really annoyed because he wouldn't be quiet.

• 1:50Esther Perel?

  They're two men in their late twenties. They both grew up in the Dominican Republic and came together as adults to the United States.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  We had a very similar upbringing, which is, I think, one of the reasons why when we first met, we connected so well.

• 2:06Esther Perel?

  They grew up with very little. They grew up with violence, with neglect.

• 2:12Speaker 04

  We had nothing, literally nothing. So now, everything that we have, we've built it up ourselves.

• 2:20Esther Perel?

  And they've built a beautiful home together. A stable relationship. And each of them have quite thriving careers.

• 2:28Speaker 06

  We have dated more seriously. Very few people, maybe two or three that we've really dated and like spent time with them. And those experiences were fun, but ultimately we decided it wasn't working for the both of us.

• 2:43Esther Perel?

  Sexually, they play with others. They play safe and they play well. But they struggle with a different kind of intimacy.

• 2:53Speaker 06

  From the beginning of a relationship, we've struggled a lot with friendships. I wouldn't say he's a loner, but he's a very shy, resourceful person. And so he has a really hard time opening up to friends and having like a bond with people. Whereas for me, I sought out friendships. And I sought a lot from my friendships.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  I wish that somehow someone could help me to be a little bit less controlling. I would like to be a little bit more relaxed.

• 3:24Esther Perel?

  They held on to each other for dear life. And after ten years, the togetherness has been secured. Can there be room for the separateness?

• 3:42Speaker 06

  We both come from families that are quite dysfunctional. And in many ways, we are our parents' parents.

• 3:49Esther Perel?

  Tell me more, give me a bit of the background.

• 3:51Speaker 06

  Um, where do we start?

• 3:55Speaker 06

  My dad is in the D R and my mom was in Florida. My dad is um, is a very smart man who is very manipulative and very... He's always been in a financial place that's not healthy. But he also refuses to do anything about it. And it it just, he just relies on me a lot financially. And that puts a strain on our relationship.

• 4:18Esther Perel?

  Who did you grow up with?

• 4:20Speaker 06

  My dad.

• 4:21Esther Perel?

  You grew up with your dad in D R?

• 4:23Speaker 06

  In the D R, yeah. My parents split when I was twelve. My mom is a victim of domestic violence and we we witnessed it.

• 4:30Esther Perel?

  With him?

• 4:31Speaker 06

  Yeah. She picked up everything and she left. And she wanted us to come with her, but my dad twisted things to make it seem like my mom was the villain. So we grew up thinking that she abandoned us and that she didn't want us. And then with time...

• 4:46Speaker 06

  As an adult, things made a lot more sense. And I just have a hard time letting go of the fact that he he just played the victim so well that made me believe that he was the victim in that when objectively, my mom was in many ways a victim to many things.

• 5:03Esther Perel?

  You hold him responsible for severing your relationship with your mom for that many years?

• 5:08Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 5:09Esther Perel?

  She would reach out and he would block?

• 5:11Speaker 06

  A hundred percent. Yep.

• 5:13Esther Perel?

  And then you thought she was not trying to find you?

• 5:16Speaker 06

  Correct. And so it was, after all that, it's really difficult for me to just have a good relationship with my dad, even if I tried, and it's have a hard time.

• 5:27Esther Perel?

  You just remembered this right now, right?

• 5:29Speaker 06

  I'm sorry?

• 5:29Esther Perel?

  You just saw something now?

• 5:32Speaker 06

  Just, it's just a lie.

• 5:33Esther Perel?

  But you just saw something?

• 5:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:38Esther Perel?

  What did you see?

• 5:40Speaker 06

  Um, just like going into my parents' bedroom and like my dad struggling my mom, basically, and like having to see that and obviously freaking out, but not really being able to do anything about it. It was just hard and so now...

• 5:57Esther Perel?

  Stay with this one second.

• 6:05Speaker 06

  At some point, he kind of like let her go and settled down because my brother and I had walked in, we were crying, obviously, we were just like, stop, what's going on? And she like ran to the corner of the room and we were standing at the door and then he stepped into the bathroom and under the like in the door of the bathroom, he like grabbed the Bible and he read like a verse from the Bible. And he was trying to find a justification for what he was doing. That's when I was like, wow, that's just insanity. Even as a child, I mean, I was like twelve, I can still remember thinking, this makes no sense. I just have a hard time understanding how I even then stayed, even though I was able to rationalize that, I still stayed with him.

• 6:49Speaker 06

  So, yeah, it's just.

• 6:56Speaker 06

  It's hard to move faster than with him.

• 6:58Esther Perel?

  Just breathe two seconds.

• 7:03Esther Perel?

  You're a talker, but still.

• 7:07Esther Perel?

  Just let it sit for a second.

• 7:14Esther Perel?

  This is way too much to carry for any 12-year-old.

• 7:23Esther Perel?

  Who then has to hold the hand of his little brother.

• 7:37Esther Perel?

  When did you come out to your father?

• 7:41Speaker 06

  I never officially came out. He would constantly bring it up as in, you know, he would go on these random rants. He would come into my room and just yell and make all these insults and comments about it. But he wouldn't just come out and say, "Hey, are you gay? What's going on?"

• 8:01Esther Perel?

  Dímelo en español. Porque luego es en español.

• 8:07Speaker 06

  Él... Eran insultos muy típicos americana, pero eran... Definitivamente eran insultos. No era simplemente, "Ah, eres gay, eres homosexual." Definitivamente eran palabras que eran mucho más allá y mucho más de negra, pero... Y era constante. Entonces, realmente nunca le dije, "Papi, soy gay."

• 8:38Esther Perel?

  While he lives with a sense of himself as a happy, upbeat, optimistic person,

• 8:48Esther Perel?

  it doesn't take much to realize that right underneath the surface... lives a lifetime of abuse, of manipulations, of put downs and violence. And so as he talks about his background, he squints with his eyes. And it takes one squint just to know that he just chased away an image. And so I go for the image. What did you just see? And then I feel that he's not just seeing things, but he's hearing things. Speak to me in Spanish, because that's the language that you heard it in. And even if I didn't speak Spanish, I would still ask him to speak in his mother tongue.

• 9:33Esther Perel?

  Because that's the language in which the wounds were seared into his skin.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  It's weird how I don't like him. I don't get along with him, but I still, he's my dad, I want to please him.

• 9:47Esther Perel?

  How do you make sense of that?

• 9:49Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 9:51Esther Perel?

  It's a question that I think we often have, right? How is it that as children, we want the love of parents, even when they did not know how to love us properly? Why do we feel such a sense of duty and obligation to people who may have been cruel to us, from whom we still want to love? And I'm assuming this is not just a question to you alone. You have a similar...

• 10:20Speaker 04

  Experience with my family?

• 10:21Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I...

• 10:23Esther Perel?

  You have your own version, right?

• 10:24Speaker 04

  I've actually never had a problem of seeking people that like me back.

• 10:31Speaker 04

  So I have lost aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. Because I find that if if you truly care about someone, you're not going to treat them in a man... like a manip... una forma manipuladora.

• 10:48Esther Perel?

  In a manipulative way.

• 10:50Speaker 04

  Manipulative, yeah. It's a hard word. So I've never had that problem. So my relationship with my mom, growing up, it was, it wasn't the greatest, especially because she had quit her job and she had this... Idea that she would never again have a boss. So she would try to get income in really random ways. And that never really worked. Um, so money was an issue. And I, I, I felt a little bit resent because I feel that I wasn't able to live my childhood to its fullest.

• 11:32Esther Perel?

  What do you mean?

• 11:35Speaker 04

  I feel that I had this double life because I had my household life, which was, which was with my mom, which was in really precarious conditions.

• 11:45Speaker 04

  And then I had my school life, which I was lucky enough that my father, which I don't really have a relationship with, he covered all of the school expenses. So I was able to go to a really nice school in the D R. I was really focused on my studies because I've, I look back now and I feel that that was my scapegoat, just to study. I'm able to live this life because I put so much effort in the past. Um, and now I'm past that. That whole, I don't even remember my life in the D R anymore after I moved to, to New York. Or I try not to remember. Um, but yeah, so that was my, my growing up and then.

• 12:24Esther Perel?

  You know, it's so funny, and it's not funny at all. Is that you've just said, I tried not to remember. And then you laugh.

• 12:34Esther Perel?

  When people describe really painful situations, but they're doing it with infusion of laughter to make it palpable. I, the listener, start to feel the stuff that you're pushing aside.

• 12:51Esther Perel?

  I'm thinking, these two kids, because they were kids,

• 12:58Esther Perel?

  had to navigate a shitload.

• 13:05Esther Perel?

  Period. Yeah. And it's not about making it, it was nothing. It's not about making it, there is no worse. It is what it is.

• 13:19Esther Perel?

  They learned codes. They learned to move from one neighborhood to another, from one social class to another, from one parent to another. They learned the map.

• 13:32Esther Perel?

  And all these experiences probably are part of your resources today that allow you to do what you do as well as you do it. Because we learn and we develop our resources also in the most painful of our experiences.

• 13:48Esther Perel?

  It may have been good now that you see how studious you were, but at the time, it may have been very lonely.

• 13:55Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 13:58Esther Perel?

  You learn to be responsible for your dad, but you deal with a big gap,

• 14:08Esther Perel?

  where you just feel like there was such a hole and I missed my mom and I missed her, period.

• 14:24Esther Perel?

  Both of them were what we call parentified children, children who became the parents of their own parents. Both of them were thrown an enormous amount of responsibility way before they were ready to assume it. And both of them grabbed on to each other for dear life.

• 14:53Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 15:07Speaker 01

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• 15:35Speaker 02

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• 16:03Esther Perel?

  El apoyo para "¿En dónde debemos empezar?" viene de Shopify. Iniciar un negocio requiere que seas recurriendo y cuanto más flexibilizas ese músculo, más empiezas a reconocer oportunidades de crecimiento, como usar Shopify para iniciar tu negocio. Y eso es especialmente cierto si inicias con Black Friday acercándose para que puedas aprovechar el tráfico online extra. Shopify es la plataforma para una temporada de ventas de recorridos y confiable para los negocios en todos los estadios. Sus themes de sitio web preinstalados y AI site builder hacen que sea fácil iniciar un hermoso sitio web profesional. Y ni siquiera necesitas tocar una línea de código para hacerlo. También tienen una aplicación móvil que te permite ejecutar tu tienda online de cualquier lugar.

• 16:46Esther Perel?

  Si estás listo para iniciar tu negocio antes de Black Friday, visita Shopify.com/Esther para iniciar tu prueba gratuita. Eso es Shopify.com/Esther. Visita Shopify.com/Esther hoy para escuchar tu primer...

• 17:07Esther Perel?

  Lo que tienes es que durante un tiempo aprendes a crecer juntos y aprendes a convertirte en familias entre sí en el sentido completo del mundo. Y las personas con las que vas a ir de comer basura o comer nada a comer bien, a tener el primer cheque de pago juntos, a vivir juntos, a mudarse a los Estados Unidos juntos. Todo eso. Y ahora llega la fase donde es... ¿Podemos seguir juntos y ser igualmente fuertes juntos pero tener un poco más de diferenciación entre nosotros? Y este tema de cómo este "yo" va a surgir en el contexto de un fuerte "nosotros", es, creo, donde estás en desarrollo.

• 17:54Speaker 06

  I think we've sort of recently been trying to work through it. So just for instance, if you wanna stay home a Saturday afternoon, but I've been working a lot this week and I wanna see some friends, I'll say, "I'm gonna grab a coffee with ex-friend." And he would say, "Well, I don't wanna go." And it becomes tense. It becomes tense to the sense that I don't even feel comfortable bringing it up as a possibility because I feel like it'll lead to an issue. And so it's things like that that we have been struggling with.

• 18:33Esther Perel?

  And it's always in that direction?

• 18:35Speaker 06

  It's always usually me.

• 18:37Speaker 04

  Not necessarily.

• 18:39Speaker 06

  What do you mean?

• 18:39Speaker 04

  So he works a lot and therefore I do things without him. And most of the time, he expects that if he's out of work, I'm just gonna drop everything that I'm doing and I'm gonna teleport next to his side.

• 18:53Esther Perel?

  So both of you experience an anxiety and a tensing up when the other one wants to go do something on their own. And both of you end up being worried about saying, "I wanna go do something on my own" because you're trying to avoid the tension between the two of you. It's either tension inside one or tension between two.

• 19:13Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 19:15Esther Perel?

  What you've done is you have used a very strong together in order to give a lot of security to two selves. And now these selves would like to emancipate themselves a bit without triggering all kinds of abandonment issues, which you both have.

• 19:39Speaker 06

  We mostly do everything together. So I feel that by you not allowing yourself to ask for the things that you want and you need, it's an issue because you don't allow me to experience the process of you being independent. You just come out one day and say, "I'm fully independent. No one's gonna tell me what I'm gonna do, period." And I feel that you do that a lot because that's how you deal with issues. You're either, you're really binary. You're either hot or cold, yes or no. It's never...

• 20:17Speaker 04

  Un proceso paulatino. It's never a slow process to get somewhere.

• 20:23Speaker 06

  I don't feel that you should have the power to say, "No, I don't want you to go out. You should stay with me." Especially when it doesn't really affect you in the sense that we'll still spend the night together, we'll have Sunday together. I'm not stripping away significant time from us because I do know that I work a lot. And so when we have free time, I know we should, we try to be together and spend it together. But at the same time, I want to use that free time to do things that I want to do and be with my friends also and just do things. And so it's a little frustrating.

• 20:54Esther Perel?

  Can I?

• 20:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, please.

• 20:58Esther Perel?

  When you talk to him like this, I hear you talk to your father.

• 21:05Esther Perel?

  Like, you have no, you have no right to have this kind of power over me. He's just said, "I don't want you to go." That's, you can say, "But I'm going anyway." Or, "I understand you don't like it." And then have a conversation about it. But you're in a power thing.

• 21:25Esther Perel?

  And in the power thing, you will do what the other person wants you to do until one day you say, "Now fuck it." So you keep it in, you keep it in, you keep it in, and anger motivates you.

• 21:41Esther Perel?

  What?

• 21:41Speaker 06

  That's just very accurate.

• 21:46Speaker 06

  I understand that he, he can say, "I don't want you to go," and we could talk about it, but ultimately, I end up not going. I mean, when we talk about it and we try to figure it out in a way where we can talk about why not or how it could be more comfortable, the reality is that the result is that I end up not doing what I want to do.

• 22:07Esther Perel?

  Why?

• 22:08Speaker 06

  Because if I do it, then it upsets him. And then even if he at some point just says, "Okay, fine, you can go, I'll go." But he will be calling me every 10 minutes or texting me nonstop. And then I'm not really enjoying what I'm trying to do. It's not even like I'm saying, "I want to do this big event weekend thing without you." It's very small things usually.

• 22:30Esther Perel?

  The first thing I will, I will highlight for you is that your little selves, the children that live inside of you, they don't make a distinction between a small, little coffee with friends or a big event of the whole weekend. The little child inside of the two of you experiences the whole thing constantly. Are you with me? Am I alone? And reacts from that degree of insecurity.

• 23:03Esther Perel?

  So if the adult you are trying to have a rational conversation over, but it's just a two-hour coffee, you're talking to the wrong person. Because the one who says, "I don't want you to go," or the one who calls you every 10 minutes

• 23:19Esther Perel?

  is not that adult.

• 23:22Esther Perel?

  And the one that ends up not going, because if he's anxious, I'm anxious. And I can't have a boundary by which I'm fine even if he is not, or find a way to reassure him, or to tell him, "My phone will be off for the next two hours," or "I won't answer." And begin to learn to regulate and calm ourselves when we are not with each other, because we have so much learned to co-regulate.

• 23:51Speaker 04

  I just want to stop in for a second and say that it's never that he wants to have a coffee for two hours with someone, because you have a coffee during the daytime. Typically, this happens if

• 24:01Speaker 04

  he went to a work event at night and alcohol is involved, and then he suddenly stops answering me or responding or whatever, and then suddenly more plans come out out of that one work thing, and then it becomes a full night out, and that is when I'm triggered.

• 24:27Esther Perel?

  What's so interesting in this reaction is that he's trying to tell him if it was really coffee, I would actually be okay with this. The reason I'm not okay with this is because it's not coffee. Rather than "The reason I'm not okay with this is because this triggers an intensity of emotions that roll inside me, that is exactly what that child used to feel." I'm sure that there is more evening involved than just coffee. But that doesn't mean that if it was only coffee, there would be no trigger.

• 25:13Speaker 04

  It's more about nighttime activities, where alcohol and people and...

• 25:19Esther Perel?

  And the fear is?

• 25:21Speaker 04

  He tends to be a people pleaser. So if he's out with a friend and the friend wants to bar hub 20 bars, even though he doesn't want to, even though he's tired, even though he wants to go home, he will do it. So that's what makes me anxious because I know that he will not say no.

• 25:41Esther Perel?

  Can I be really psychological with you?

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Yes, and I'm not gonna like it. Go ahead.

• 25:46Esther Perel?

  You what?

• 25:46Speaker 04

  I'm probably not gonna like it, but go ahead.

• 25:50Speaker 06

  Please, I'll watch. Go ahead.

• 25:52Esther Perel?

  You know how I said to him that when he talks to you, he's talking to his dad?

• 25:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, who am I talking to?

• 25:57Esther Perel?

  Your mom.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  Oh, God.

• 25:58Esther Perel?

  With her impulsivity and her bad choices.

• 26:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:03Esther Perel?

  And her being influenced by other people.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:07Esther Perel?

  And when you talk to him, you talk to her.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  Yep. It makes a lot of sense.

• 26:15Esther Perel?

  It works in both directions, right? And so you do just enough for it to trigger in him. This is what used to happen between me and my dad. And he does just enough.

• 26:29Esther Perel?

  Of the impulsive, people-pleasing, non-thought-out behaviors, etc., for you to think, "I have to buckle down, I have to be the responsible one, I have to be the controlled one, I have to be the one who measures all the dangers of a situation, because, obviously, he doesn't."

• 26:50Esther Perel?

  And when we begin to re-experience with our partners, things which we experienced with our first partners, which is our parents or our caregivers, it doesn't just come from nowhere. We pick a person who does just enough

• 27:08Esther Perel?

  to ignite inside of us the memory, the cellular visceral memory of those interactions, so that we then start to respond to them from that place. You want to have a conversation about respect, he has a conversation about power.

• 27:27Esther Perel?

  And so now we need to change the conversation. And that starts, probably,

• 27:34Esther Perel?

  with you talking about what gets evoked for each of you. And then you can talk about friends, and you can talk about sex, and you can talk about... Because it's the same dynamic, I think. This is the core.

• 27:50Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 27:50Speaker 04

  Yep, you are extremely correct in that, yes.

• 27:59Esther Perel?

  Every couple has to negotiate separateness and togetherness. It's probably one of the core tasks of a relationship. What is "I" and what is "we"?

• 28:11Esther Perel?

  But as we all need connection and independence, what sometimes will happen in a relationship is one person is afraid to lose the other,

• 28:24Esther Perel?

  and the other person is more afraid to lose themselves.

• 28:40Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 29:49Speaker 06

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• 30:22Speaker 06

  That's definitely how I've experienced it. And that's certainly why I react the way I react to it. It is true that you are much more constrained and in control than I am. And it is true that I enjoy having four drinks. If we're out, I do like to have a good time. And if that means getting a little bust and dancing, I do it and I enjoy it a lot. I mean, it doesn't happen often, but when I do it, that's a way that I have fun. And you certainly don't do that and you don't see that as fun.

• 30:55Speaker 04

  I'm also not a person to drink to a point where I'll blackout, or I don't know what's going on, or I do reckless things.

• 31:06Esther Perel?

  Before you try to reassure him, I am not like your mom.

• 31:14Esther Perel?

  See if you can stay with him about how you understand, how it makes sense that he would experience you the way he does.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 31:26Esther Perel?

  Because if he experiences you as more solid, he actually may one day allow himself

• 31:35Esther Perel?

  to let go more. Part of why he is to do this tightness is because he constantly thinks that he has to do it for two, which may not be the case at all.

• 31:48Speaker 04

  So it's not about the alcohol. It's more about me seeing that you have the power of your own self and not letting other people influence whatever you want to do or whatever is best for you.

• 32:08Esther Perel?

  And can you add to that? And this is an anxiety or an awareness that I bring with me as well.

• 32:18Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:19Esther Perel?

  This is not just all produced by him.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  No, it's not all produced by him. I'm a really anxious person in general. I just can't blindly trust that people are gonna be trustworthy in the way that

• 32:38Speaker 04

  you can't tell me, trust me, this is not gonna happen. And then every single time that the same situation comes along, it's the same result. It's the same situation. It's like either work or friends or whatever or health, which is a major issue for him. I need to be there and be like, you need to do this, you need to do that. And if I was able to see that you are a little bit more...

• 33:07Speaker 04

  Independent, not independent, but if you just take a little bit more care of you, it would be easier for me to be more chill.

• 33:18Speaker 06

  I mean, I hear you and I appreciate that you care so much that you feel that you have to do all that. But you, and I'm happy you do it because you're taking care of me. But I also feel that you kind of have to also let me figure out what I'm comfortable with and what are my, you know, my breaking points and what are, because, because in the end, we do, we do have different, different level of risk-taking. And I think overall, we also approach things like work and friends and all these things very differently in a sense. And, and you have to be able to just like step back and trust that I,

• 33:59Speaker 06

  I'll be fine. And if I'm not, I'll, trust me, I will, yeah, I'll help. I'm not just gonna drown.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  Yes, that is correct, but I feel that.

• 34:10Esther Perel?

  See, the interesting thing is that each of you says, yes, but. This is, I've now waited three times. Yes, but, yes, but.

• 34:24Esther Perel?

  You want him to become more responsible so that you don't have to feel so responsible for him, but he won't become more responsible because you're always there. And he's trying to tell you, let me find my own threshold. And that is way to anxiety-producing for you.

• 34:39Esther Perel?

  You want him to trust you, but then you act in a way that doesn't allow him to trust you because every time he has to step in because you didn't do what you said you were gonna do. So if you try to say, I will change when you do, it will sound nice, but it won't be effective.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  No, it doesn't work. It's a vicious circle.

• 34:59Esther Perel?

  So the best way you have is to say what you can do.

• 35:05Esther Perel?

  Part of the anxiety about, does he know where to stop, is slightly related to how he acts. And part of it comes because you have decades of that as your marker.

• 35:20Esther Perel?

  There will be the challenge of accepting that he has a different threshold. Which in part is why you picked him in the first place.

• 35:31Esther Perel?

  He's looser, he's more open to the world, he's more... What you call people pleaser, he's more trusting in that way.

• 35:40Speaker 06

  Yes, that's accurate.

• 35:42Esther Perel?

  And those are the very things that probably drew you to him. But they also are scary for you. And this is the law of attraction. What is initially attractive because it's different is also the source of conflict later because it is different. You know, you wished when you had your mom that you didn't have to be that responsible all the time and be the one who thinks about her limits so that you could be the child who goes and explores and does and plays and discovers and makes mistakes rather than you be the studious kid who never breaks a single rule because she does all of that.

• 36:21Esther Perel?

  And part of your reaction to him is that, you know, you both are the responsible children. But as a result, he became more constrained and you became more like, "I do all the right things, I'm entitled to some fun."

• 36:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's basically how I see it.

• 36:39Speaker 04

  I'm just hoping that we would change sort of at the same rhythm. But I think that's not possible because obviously we've been trying and it doesn't really work and, yeah.

• 36:53Esther Perel?

  The way you've been addressing this is not helping.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 37:00Esther Perel?

  And another discussion about it was 1 o'clock, it was 3 o'clock, it was 11:15. No, I did call you the...

• 37:08Esther Perel?

  I mean, you can enjoy it, I don't think you do. But in any case, it's not working.

• 37:17Esther Perel?

  And it's not working because there's a deeper conversation.

• 37:24Esther Perel?

  That has to do with the way you learn to adapt.

• 37:29Esther Perel?

  What are you really saying?

• 37:32Speaker 06

  When I say, "Trust me" about this?

• 37:35Esther Perel?

  Or, "You have got to trust me," it's kind of, you know.

• 37:39Speaker 06

  It's almost basically, "You have to trust me because ultimately, I should be able to set the threshold of what's enough and what's okay." And I feel like for many years, you've been the one setting the threshold because it makes you feel uncomfortable if I'm past your threshold and maybe mine's a little further down the road.

• 37:59Esther Perel?

  Yes, but what part of you

• 38:05Esther Perel?

  accepted his threshold as yours?

• 38:10Speaker 06

  It almost felt like, it was like, it was a "take it or leave me" kind of thing, like, "This is just how you are" and it's just kind of like the price of admission, like, "I have to deal with this if I want to be with you." And, you know, ultimately, I'd rather be with you and, you know, work around your anxiety and work around what makes you feel comfortable when we're not together because I'd rather be with you than not.

• 38:40Speaker 04

  At the time, I didn't know that you were putting up with anything. And then suddenly, I don't know when, it suddenly exploded and you said that you lost a friend because I made you lose a friend and I'm like, "What are you talking about? That's not what I said, that's not what I meant."

• 38:57Speaker 06

  It's a pattern that keeps repeating because whenever I get close to a friend, and we get very, very close, where we, you know, we check in, maybe not every day, but we chat often, we check in about work stuff, we share some stuff, we have common interests. He has a hard time seeing that it's just a friendship and that it's okay for me to have a friend who I share things with and I have common interests with that maybe we don't share.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  It's also that when you get close to people with your interests, you tend to get close to people physically as well. And I have a hard time with that because, to me, there's a really straight line where friendship and more than friends is divided. And I feel that your line is a little bit more blurry. And that makes me extremely uncomfortable. Because I feel that it suddenly becomes this constant person there that I might not want them to be so constant there. Or I feel that you focus too much on the person. And then that person becomes your person. And it just makes me really uncomfortable.

• 40:11Speaker 06

  Okay. I think just for the sake of clearness, when you say physical, it's not like I don't have sex with my friends. And we don't make out.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  Oh, no.

• 40:22Speaker 06

  It's not intimate. It's simply that I am generally, and also just not with friendships in general, I am physically affectionate with people that I feel comfortable with. I don't go around hugging every single person in my office, but I hug some of my coworkers.

• 40:39Esther Perel?

  You keep saying it's not intimate. And I think that's exactly what it is. It may not be sexual.

• 40:46Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 40:46Esther Perel?

  But it is intimate.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:49Esther Perel?

  And what I'm hearing you say is that it's the intense intimacy. It's the kind of infatuation. It's the sense that you're being replaced or pushed aside. That there's somebody else who suddenly becomes his primary focus. And then you feel basically excluded.

• 41:10Esther Perel?

  I held these sessions in a pre-COVID world, when people could still talk about how they are physical beings who go to work and hug those that they feel close to. Who knows which world we will come back to? At this moment, the question of physical closeness is going to take on new expressions, but the categories won't necessarily change. The discussion about how it is the friendship, the intimacy of friendships, the closeness, that triggers him because he experiences the energy being siphoned out of their relationship and being directed to those friends.

• 41:56Speaker 04

  I want to have the intimacy with him, and that's it. Or whoever we decide to have intimacy with together, in not a platonic way. There, I don't have a problem. If it's a friend that he has his focus on, that friend and I, we sort of have to live with each other in a way.

• 42:17Esther Perel?

  You compete?

• 42:19Speaker 04

  I wouldn't say compete.

• 42:22Speaker 04

  It's coexisting.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  Because after nine years, no one is competition.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  And I'm not competitive, but it's true. I don't feel threatened that my relationship will end. I don't feel threatened that...

• 42:37Esther Perel?

  You don't?

• 42:38Speaker 04

  I do not.

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  You don't?

• 42:40Speaker 04

  I do not feel threatened.

• 42:44Speaker 04

  But mindful that multiple relationships can happen at once, and that is what I'm afraid of. It's not that I'm gonna lose him. It's that I'm gonna have to share him with someone that I don't want to share my life with. I don't want to share my experiences with.

• 43:00Esther Perel?

  It's a form of loss too, you know?

• 43:02Speaker 04

  In that way, yeah.

• 43:04Esther Perel?

  It may not be a definitive loss, but it is a form of loss.

• 43:11Esther Perel?

  There is sharing that makes you feel that you have more, and there is sharing that makes you feel that you have less.

• 43:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 43:22Esther Perel?

  Interestingly, he doesn't think you would leave him. He just thinks he would have less of you. Because you would have others. And then he starts to feel that that means he's not enough. And you will need to convey to him that others don't mean compensation.

• 43:42Esther Perel?

  That others mean a richer life for us all. That there can't be one person for everything, which is what you have been till now. You have been, for each other, an entire community.

• 43:57Esther Perel?

  Now, when you play together and you're sexual with a third, or, you know, you're together. So it's a very different experience. That's why it's not the sex that is threatening here. It's the closeness, it's the intimacy.

• 44:13Esther Perel?

  Reverse, often reverse from straight people, actually.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  True.

• 44:19Esther Perel?

  Imagine that you pick a night a week, first of all. You start with that during the week. Where you go and do your own thing. Whatever it is.

• 44:30Esther Perel?

  You don't invite each other. The point is that those are your nights off. Your nights to yourself. So that you have, you start to cultivate a different balance between separate and together. And imagine you don't have a curfew on those. You may actually come home a lot earlier when you don't have a curfew. You'll be surprised.

• 44:50Speaker 04

  I was perfect with the idea until you... Brother, I was like, yeah, that would be perfect. Until you said that, I'm like...

• 44:59Speaker 04

  It has to be Saturday morning. Because I know that if he hangs out with someone Saturday morning, by 2, he's gonna be back.

• 45:07Esther Perel?

  But I would like you to have an evening as well. The point is that you actually get to be away without having the other in a constraining force.

• 45:18Esther Perel?

  You need to be able to be away without worry. The worry that he will come back, or the worry that he will experience more important things than you elsewhere, and the worry that you have to protect him because he's gonna be upset, or depressed, or angry.

• 45:34Esther Perel?

  The challenge now is how do you make that space so that there is more room for the I in the midst of the way?

• 45:51Esther Perel?

  Even in a world of social distancing, the balance between connection and closeness and freedom and independence will remain a primary task of relationships.

• 46:13Esther Perel?

  So I'm leaving it to them to see how they're going to do it now. If it's not about going to dance with other people and sweating the club, what form will it take? The importance of this principle does not change from a pre-COVID to a post-COVID world.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to esterperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esterperel.com.

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