Laverne Cox on Messy Dating Stories & Healing from Childhood Trauma

Laverne Cox opens up about her memoir Transcendent, childhood trauma, finding self-acceptance and the challenges she still faces today. She gets real about dating conservative men, dating-app disasters, a famous rapper who had to work for her number and why she’s been celibate for two years. Plus, Laverne looks back at Orange Is the New Black, fighting for trans rights and what’s changed for trans visibility since the hit show ended. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  Today, I'm sitting down with the incomparable Laverne Cox. You know her as the groundbreaking actress who made history as Sophia Brissette on "Orange is the New Black," becoming the first openly transgender person nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award in acting category. She's also a producer, author, host, advocate, and now with her deeply personal memoir, "Transcendent," she's telling her story in her own words. But today, we're talking about something even bigger. Behind all the history-making moments is a woman who has spent her life fighting to define herself on her own terms. We're talking identity, joy, love, dating, fashion, healing, what it means to be seen,

• 0:45Keke Palmer?

  and what it takes to keep growing into yourself. So, let's get into it, because, baby, this is Keke Palmer, and, baby, this is Laverne Cox.

• 1:26Keke Palmer?

  Today's episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Starbucks. Fall's most iconic beverage is here. The Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte is back to kick off the season. Order now on the app.

• 1:42Keke Palmer?

  Sister! Oh, my gosh. And why the hell do you do this every time you outdoing me on my own show? This look, oh, my gosh, sorry, I got your foot.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  It's not a competition.

• 1:53Keke Palmer?

  Babe, you look so freaking stunning.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  You look so stunning. I love this color, and it goes so beautifully with your hair.

• 2:02Keke Palmer?

  Now, is this Mugler?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  It is, indeed.

• 2:04Keke Palmer?

  Because that's you, down.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  I wear other designers as well, but I do collect vintage Mugler. This is spring 1993, which is a very, like, really rare defined documentation of this collection, because there was no runway show of it, but there are women's wear daily images of this dress.

• 2:25Keke Palmer?

  Period! And that beat.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  I do feel, today, I was like, I want to feel like, just full bombshell fantasy. When I tried on the dress and there was all this cleavage, I was just like, I want to lean into like my Bardot, like, full bombshell fantasy, just for me, like, there's no men seem to be checking for me.

• 2:52Keke Palmer?

  Ah, me either, girl.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  It's for me.

• 2:54Keke Palmer?

  I don't know about you, how you feel in the dating world, but it's like, we're texting, and it's like, what are we saying, really? How do we get into the obligatory relationship where we just saying something to each other every day that's random? What does it mean? What is the impact? So, when someone can spar and you can be like, okay, boo, and before you know it, we're down some rabbit hole, that is fun.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  That's fun, and it's also, I was talking earlier, I was thinking about, because I'm all about being a better version of Laverne.

• 3:21Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, me too, me too. I'm on some journey, always.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Self-improvement, and I was revisiting Brene Brown's definition of love, which I think is so unbelievably amazing. And I think, how amazing would it be if with my ex, we could have like, talked about this? Because I shared it with him, of course, and he was like, that's beautiful. And I was like, let's parse it. So, it's, so Brene Brown says, "We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and honor the spiritual offering of that connection with trust, respect, kindness, and affection." Trust, respect, kindness, and affection. We could break it down with the guy, there's more.

• 4:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I want to break it down with the guy.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  And trust, respect, kindness, and affection. Love is not something we give or get, it's something we nurture and grow, a connection that can only exist within each individual when it exists within each of them. We can only love others as much as we love ourselves. Hello. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal, and the withholding of affection damages the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries when they're acknowledged, healed, and rare. The accountability piece. So, like, if you have that.

• 4:46Keke Palmer?

  I'm following you every step of the way.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  If you have that definition to work with, right? And then there's been a shaming moment, or a blaming moment, or disrespectful moment. Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal.

• 4:56Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Withholding of affection.

• 4:58Keke Palmer?

  That withholding of affection is evil!

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Evil. And, girl, and it happens, especially when they love bomb and then they like, pull it away.

• 5:07Keke Palmer?

  It's not funny, but it is.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Girl, it's, how many of us have dealt with that? But like, to be able to have a man who had the capacity to process that with you, I was thinking, how amazing would that be? But like, where are those men?

• 5:20Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because where is the people that really believe in the compassion that it would take to actually exist in that space? Or just the people that, the big part of what you just said, that Brene said, is you can only love people as much as you love yourself. Where are the people that, one of the first things you said when you sat down at this share was, "I'm always on a journey trying to better myself." It's like, where do I find other people that are also on that same path?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  It's weird, because I put on my list between breakups, like, two or three breakups ago, I put on the list someone in, like, engaged in self-improvement and wanting to better himself. And then I did, the next boyfriend was that guy.

• 5:55Keke Palmer?

  Okay. But was it because it was a trend, or was he really seeming to genuinely be?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  It was genuine, but it was, there was, there were other issues. There's always something.

• 6:06Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  There's always something, and I think, like, what I realized, he didn't make the book, but, um...

• 6:13Keke Palmer?

  Maybe that's a good thing.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  No, a lot of them didn't make the book, girl. But this one, oh, should I say this?

• 6:19Keke Palmer?

  Say it. We can bleep somebody's name, I don't know what you're gonna say, but...

• 6:25Speaker 01

  I think when we went public, he's one of the ones I went public with.

• 6:28Keke Palmer?

  Is this the one where people try to get on you about? Is that where you're bringing it up?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  No, no, no, that was after. Like, I went public and people knew him, I tagged him on Instagram. He was, he, at the time, this is 2017-ish, took, 2016, 2017, and you couldn't, or 2018, one of those years. And on Instagram, you had to, in Instagram stories, you had to have 10,000 followers to do the swipe up. I don't even do that on Instagram anymore, and he was in real estate, so I was like, I'll get you, for your birthday, I'll get you 10,000 followers. So, I tagged him.

• 7:01Keke Palmer?

  Girl! Oh, my God. She said so, I tagged him.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  So, I tagged him, and he got, you know, 25,000 followers. And it was, he was really, he was so cool in so many ways. Like, I literally met his friends on our second date, which is very strange, and we talked about it.

• 7:19Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, why so soon?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  I was like, it just, a friend of his, I, what, [BLEEP].

• 7:24Keke Palmer?

  I love you!

• 7:25Speaker 01

  So, Tinashe, he has a friend who knows Tinashe. She was doing like a Taco Tuesday.

• 7:30Keke Palmer?

  I love her.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  We had, our first date was second of Sunday. He was like, going to this Taco Tuesday thing, I know it's our second date, but like, would you want to go with me? I was like, eh, my friends are gonna be there. I was like, eh, it's kind of weird to meet your friends on the second date. But I was like, if it's weird, I'll leave. I'm, girl, I don't, if something's not...

• 7:48Keke Palmer?

  But it was cute?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  If something's not working, I'll leave. I'm very good that way. I loved his friends. I really...

• 7:55Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes you like the friends more than them.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I loved, I loved his friends, and what was cool and better about this group of friends, he was, the time, he was 28 years old, this is, yeah, but my ex before that, he was like late 30s, all his friends were married with kids. So, whenever I hung out with them, it was all about the kids, you know?

• 8:19Keke Palmer?

  Right, yeah, if you're not married and with kids, sometimes that married with kids, it's like, what are we talking about?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  When you're a parent, when you're a parent, your whole life is your kids, and that's beautiful and that's wonderful. I, I don't, that's, I love that for you.

• 8:33Keke Palmer?

  No, when I didn't have a kid...

• 8:34Speaker 01

  But I don't want to talk about your kids.

• 8:36Keke Palmer?

  When I didn't have a kid and my friends with a kid, like, we would be there and everything like that, but it was, it becomes different, because I don't have a kid, you know what I mean? Like, even now, the friends that I had that had kids, we've become closer again now that I have a kid, so...

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Because the point of, how old is your, um, son now?

• 8:52Keke Palmer?

  Three, three.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Three. Oh, you're in the thick of it. You're gonna be in the thick of it.

• 8:56Keke Palmer?

  Up until you're probably a teenager, really, I feel, or at least 11 or 12.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  I feel like, when you're a parent, you never, ever stop being in the thick of it. You never stop worrying about your kid. Lorraine Chisant, when we were shooting "Orange" together, said, and other people have said this since, that having a child is like having your heart outside of your body.

• 9:16Keke Palmer?

  For sure, for sure.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  And that, that's devastating.

• 9:20Keke Palmer?

  It is.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  It's devastating. Your heart is out in the world.

• 9:24Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  And all of these things can happen, I, it's too much.

• 9:28Keke Palmer?

  Well, that's why they say about postpartum, it never ends. You just kind of get used to it, because that is such a shock and a trauma to like, know that like, you built someone and you created this child, and you don't, you know, you have to let them into the world. It's not really something that you ever really are able to metabolize, you just kind of learn to live with it, you know what I mean?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  And, and just trust that you're not effing up in some way. I would be so, I'm never gonna have kids, but I would be so...

• 9:58Keke Palmer?

  I didn't know, I didn't realize.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Terrified that I would be like, screwing up the kid. I have, I'm sure you haven't had a chance to read my book, because you're booked, you're booked. But my childhood was so traumatizing, I would never want to do that to someone else, and I, and I wouldn't.

• 10:15Keke Palmer?

  I'm about to say, but that's probably why you wouldn't, and probably why you would be an amazing mother, because you know how you want it to be loved.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:23Keke Palmer?

  But it doesn't mean you need to have kids, you know what I'm saying, but I'm just saying...

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Keeping another living, being responsible for...

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Keeping a human being alive.

• 10:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. No pets?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  A pet alive.

• 10:37Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's the same thing. Pets get sick, pets, pets pass away.

• 10:42Keke Palmer?

  It's hard with that.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 10:44Keke Palmer?

  You break up with folks, they take the pet back.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  I have friends who lost their pets and it is, I cry with them. It's devastating. It's too, it's too much.

• 10:52Keke Palmer?

  It is. It's too much. Now, wait a minute. So when it comes to you with dating, I, I literally have not even gotten to the pre-show pull-up questions because I'm just so into where you're taking us. Um, when you are dating, where do you find your dates? Are you online? Is it only out when you're, you know, in mutual gatherings? Like, how do you?

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Men have not approached me in real life. When's the last time a man approached me in real life? I can't even remember.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  In fact, I do remember. Oh, that was, well, it's two, two times that come to mind. So 2016, when I first moved to LA and I was doing a show called Doubt, there was a background actor from Alabama, and I'm from Alabama.

• 11:27Keke Palmer?

  Come on, Bama.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  And he was so inappropriately, like, trying to get to me. And I was just kind of like, he was cute, but I was like, it was a little much. And, but I even, you know, I gave him my number, whatever. We went out, girl. It was giving, this was so, what gagged me was like, how bad, he was a hustler. He was a hustler. And I was just like, so I'm like, this is 2016, I'm 54 now, so I would have been 44 then. Yes, girl. You have, this is where you have to look forward to.

• 12:00Keke Palmer?

  But how do we know that this is how it'll turn out for me?

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Because you're black, girl. You're black and it gets better. Look at women in their 50s. Black women in their 50s, it's, it's, it's gonna be over for you.

• 12:12Keke Palmer?

  Baby, what I'm looking at right now, 54, this is crazy. You look so damn good.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  God is good.

• 12:18Keke Palmer?

  Oh, bitch.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  This is why I-

• 12:20Keke Palmer?

  I know that's right for the fuck.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  God is good and black is beautiful. Hallelujah. No face surgery yet. I'm not opposed. Um, but I'm so scared I see those, like-

• 12:31Keke Palmer?

  It just goes botched so fast.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  I, I should touch my face and like, if something goes wrong, I don't know. I would freak out. And then you see, like, when you see the faceless and you're mummified the day after and everything is swollen, I, I, that would traumatize me. Anyway, what we, we were, okay, so dating.

• 12:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  So dating, so, so he like, you know, like, he goes hard. Anyway, we like decided to go out and, girl, he comes and picks me up. And in the car, on the way to the restaurant, he tells me that his, with his ex-girlfriend, basically like he had a domestic charge with his ex that he needed expunged and he needed like a couple thousand dollars to get it expunged. This is in the car ride, girl. On the thing, there was a moment when I was like, can't, at a stop sign, can I like drop and roll out of the car?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  I was like, this man is telling me in the car that he has been convicted of domestic violence. And I was like, oh, what happened?

• 13:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, right, because what's gonna happen here if I don't respond properly?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  And then he was, he basically, he suggested that it was like her fault. I was not buying it. So I was already not, I was like, this is a chop.

• 13:49Keke Palmer?

  Because why would you tell me this? We've just met, babe.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  But, girl, like-

• 13:54Keke Palmer?

  People being just so fast to talk.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  No game. And then, so then I was like, okay, I'm here. So we get to the restaurant and then we're talking and I don't drive. And he was telling me like, oh, you should get this car. And it was like a car that he kind of wanted to drive, clearly. I was like, this is our first date and you're trying to hustle me? And you have no game.

• 14:19Keke Palmer?

  But the fact that people don't know when, that, that someone else can tell when they're being, when they're hustling.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I was a grown ass woman. I was 44 years old. I'm like, I'm from New York. You think you're got-

• 14:29Keke Palmer?

  Come on, babe.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I, I've had hustlers.

• 14:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  I've had hustlers. Uh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What a mess. Anyway, um, so guys have approached me. So, but before I was on the apps, um, I have, um, so I haven't dated in two years. I'm celibate.

• 14:45Keke Palmer?

  Purposely?

• 14:47Speaker 01

  It just kind of happened.

• 14:48Keke Palmer?

  It just happened and then you stuck with it?

• 14:49Speaker 01

  It just kind of happened. I realized like a year and a half, a year and a half in, I was like, I haven't gone on a date. I haven't had sex. I don't want to have sex. I don't want to go on a date.

• 14:59Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  And I just kind of was like, so, literally, that was six years ago. I met my ex six years ago and we met on Tinder. And so I was swiping and doing all this stuff. I don't know if I can even do that anymore.

• 15:12Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Um, I don't have-

• 15:13Keke Palmer?

  I tried to do dating ads before. It's just like, what are we doing, networking?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  I don't, Raya. Girl, Raya.

• 15:21Keke Palmer?

  At that point, I was just getting business meetings.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Every, I know. I was so offended. This one guy, after our first date, he sends me a proposal for a documentary. He, he, I was like, do you understand how many people want to get a meeting with me?

• 15:36Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  I don't need to be on Raya for meetings. I have meetings.

• 15:40Keke Palmer?

  They need to be on Raya for meetings, clearly.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  I have meetings. I was so, I was offended. I was like, motherf- Like, like, you are wasting my time?

• 15:51Keke Palmer?

  No, legitimately. Legitimately. It's so crazy how that is.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  But it makes good stories, though.

• 15:57Keke Palmer?

  It does, it does.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  And it's ultimately not that serious. I mean-

• 16:01Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  It is a waste of time and time is precious, but, um, it makes a good story for a podcast.

• 16:07Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  So what do you want to talk about, girl?

• 16:08Keke Palmer?

  So pre-show pull-up, I didn't even get into these questions with you.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Sorry, girl.

• 16:11Keke Palmer?

  Because we, but you came in flowing and we was flowing. I was here for it all. What are your big three? Do you know? Your sun, your moon, and your rising?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Oh, I was supposed to look this up. I'm sorry. I know, only know my sun. I, um, I'm in Gemini.

• 16:26Keke Palmer?

  Gemini, June, May?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  May 29th, 1972. I share a birthday with John F. Kennedy, Latoya Jackson, Rebi Jackson. They were born on the same day. Mel B., um, Greg-

• 16:39Keke Palmer?

  Mel B., I love her.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Greg Solkan. Oh, my God, so many, um, people born on my, uh, day.

• 16:44Keke Palmer?

  You had a long list. That was pretty amazing. I got to find out your rising and your moon. It has to be Libra or Taurus or something that deals with being sexy.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  One time, it was, um, sad, I'm not sure.

• 16:54Keke Palmer?

  I love that one time.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  I think, I, I got it, it was looked up, but I just, you know.

• 16:58Keke Palmer?

  Okay, we'll, we'll, we'll look into that. Okay, what is your love language?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  My love language is touch.

• 17:04Keke Palmer?

  Ooh, we love to be touched.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  And I realized that in my last relationship and it was so-

• 17:09Keke Palmer?

  Because they was touch you all the time or because they weren't touching you?

• 17:12Speaker 01

  But it was also his love language. So it was perfect. And it was so healing. He didn't always have the language, bless his heart, but, but he, but if I was, when I woke up in his arms and he would, he would wake up with sleep in his eyes, sexy AF, and look around and he would look for me. And then he would, he would put his arm out and I would get in that nook. And it, it was everything. It was, it was everything.

• 17:43Keke Palmer?

  You setting this scene, I would literally listen to you tell me a story. Did you do it for your, for transcendence? Did you do audiobook too?

• 17:50Speaker 01

  We did an audiobook.

• 17:51Keke Palmer?

  Oh, baby, I'm about to be listening to that in the car. I could listen to you talk all day.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 17:56Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, yes.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  The touch was, it was everything. And it really, there was something beautifully healing about it too. Because I didn't, one of the things I will reveal about the book, I didn't grow up with affection in the house. We didn't, we didn't hug.

• 18:11Keke Palmer?

  No, I loved you, no hug, no hug. Not even with your twin brother?

• 18:14Speaker 01

  No. Why would, why would me and my twin brother hug each other?

• 18:18Keke Palmer?

  You know, twins are supposed to be holding hands so close. You guys weren't even close.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  We were close, but like, why would we be holding hands when like our, it's not being modeled to us by our mother? Like, what, where, who does, like, do you know what I mean?

• 18:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, where you getting it from? It's not something that is normal in your mind.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 18:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Girl, no, we didn't do that. So, but it's never too late to have a happy childhood. I have gotten to have a lot of those things in my adult life. And that has been really beautiful and really amazing and really healing. And that's a lot of what's in the book. I mean, it's, it's, it's a tough read, um, in the beginning for a lot of people, but there are lessons. And I, and it took a lot of time to really try to figure out what was going on with me and what was the context? And, and, and trying to really like go into how I felt as a kid and what my perspective of it was. Instead of, and then obviously what people were saying to me about me.

• 19:16Keke Palmer?

  What was your perspective as a kid? Because I think in my mind, you know, did you always feel like you knew who you were? And you just were explaining it to others? Or did you, like, so what was it as a kid? You know, I'm sure you're being compared to your twin. You know, you're growing up with your mom. What, just take me back to there real quick.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  I didn't have language for it. But I, I knew I was a girl. I also knew that I was supposed to be a star, that I was put on the planet for something bigger than all of the things that were happening in Mobile, Alabama. I was like, this is tired, these children are tired.

• 19:52Keke Palmer?

  Come on.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  I'm supposed, I, I don't have to, I have to, I have to be, I have to be a star. I have to prepare. This is very early on, like three, four, five years old. Um, five years old, I started begging for dance classes and finally I started setting dance in third grade. So I had a sense of who I was. I didn't have language for the gender stuff.

• 20:13Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  And, and I was bullied ferociously for it. I was, um, by the other kids, by my teachers.

• 20:22Keke Palmer?

  What?

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:23Keke Palmer?

  The teachers?

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Girl, listen to the book, that's too much.

• 20:26Keke Palmer?

  Girl, listen to the book, okay.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Teachers, um, my, all the other kids, my mom, my mother, when they would, um, I learned not to trust my mom to tell her when the kids were beating me up because she would blame me. She would say, what are you doing to make them, um, treat you that way? And why aren't you fighting back? I was never-

• 20:44Keke Palmer?

  What about your brother? What's your brother, what was?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  We're not, he's not a fighter either. Like, we, so I'm not, I'm a lover, not a fighter. And I really felt, and I, and I, for a while, I felt weird saying this out loud, but now I'm like emboldened. I'm like, I felt above duking out on the schoolyard with other kids. I'm like, I, God didn't put me here to be fighting with some pathetic-

• 21:06Keke Palmer?

  Tussling with you hoes, okay.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Kids who are probably gonna end up in jail or dead or whatever. This is, you know, I'm a child, it's a childish narrative. But this was like, I don't have time for this. I, I need to go, I need to be reading, I need to go to the library, I need to be dancing and prepare.

• 21:20Keke Palmer?

  You felt really alone.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Just getting in the mindset. Oh, I was so alone, but I had my imagination, I had my dreams, I had the library. I was, I, it was dancing all the time. I had music in my head, I created characters. I always had music and characters, so I danced everywhere. And I, so I lived in my imagination, I disassociated. And I went to the library and I read and I went to other worlds and found, you know, there were so many wonderful things that you could learn about in the library.

• 21:48Keke Palmer?

  When you think about what you were watching or the moments where you did feel, feel seen, I don't know if it would have been a dance class, who are the people or the things that come up into your mind?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  When I felt seen, when I started taking dance classes, it was my first dance teacher, Jocelyn Brown was her name. I was just free. There was just this freedom.

• 22:07Keke Palmer?

  Shout out to Jocelyn.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  And it was so amazing. Thank you, Jocelyn. Thank you, Culture in Black and White. It was a program called Culture in Black and White, which is a program for low-income kids in Mobile, Alabama, where you get to study, where we got to study the arts. I was studying dance, tap, and jazz to start. And my brother was studying visual arts. My brother was a very sort of prodigious artist. He drew and painted very realistically from an early age.

• 22:34Keke Palmer?

  So you're both art creatives.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:35Keke Palmer?

  Incredible. Was your mother an artist? Where did you guys get this from?

• 22:38Speaker 01

  She wasn't, but she wanted to dance when she was a kid. And my grandfather said, no. And so when I was like, it took three years, but when I said I want to take dance classes, because she was denied, she said yes. And when my teacher said, you should take that child out of those dance classes. They're going to make them gay. She didn't do it. And...

• 23:01Keke Palmer?

  Wait a minute, because that's interesting. For you to have this kind of relationship with your mom where she's bullying you because she doesn't really understand you, but then she's advocating for you in these small ways. Or maybe they weren't small because obviously dancing was a form of freedom for you. What do you make of that? You know, how do we...

• 23:17Speaker 01

  My mother was a teacher. She was an educator. And so I think she understood that this is something that I loved. I wasn't getting in trouble like the other kids who were getting in trouble. And it kept, it gave me goals. It gave me, it just nurtured so much of who I was. And school was that thing, too. And so I think it was just for my mom. It was about education and exposure. She understood that as an educator. I think some of the, when I think about the privileges that I've had in my life, having a mother who's an educator is probably one of the best privileges I've had in my life.

• 24:01Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. My mom's an educator, too. I feel very similarly. You talk about in the book how you felt like I was a mistake.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:10Keke Palmer?

  Well, how early did you feel those words? Or that feeling?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  My first memories of having feelings. I felt like a mistake.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  My first memory is of sex abuse. So that doesn't help. I was two years old. For a long time, I thought I was five. And when I finally told my mother, and we looked at the timeline, I had to have been two. And in my mind, in my mind for years, I blamed myself. And I was like, I was five. And I was like, what did I do? And I thought it was my fault. And then when my mother told me I was two, I had to be two, I was like, there's no way. At five, it wasn't my fault. But at two, it definitely wasn't my fault. So I would just, so the shame, sex abuse, abusing children is like the worst thing you can ever do to someone.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  And it's so disgusting to me that...

• 25:09Keke Palmer?

  Did you talk in the book about who it was?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  I told, yeah, I talked to my mom about who it was. And she was very angry. And she was like, why didn't you tell me? I didn't, I didn't trust you. I didn't feel safe with you.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  I was literally in my 30s when I told her. And so that made me feel like a mistake. My mom telling me and my brother that we were literally a mistake, that we were not a planned pregnancy. And that my sperm donor, not even my father, because I literally met him once, that we were going to end up in jail like him if we didn't act right. And we were making her life, she reminded us every day that we were making her life very difficult because she was a single mother working four jobs and never had any money. And I think part of the reason I didn't want to have kids is that children, I felt like children ruined people's lives. I felt like I was ruining this woman's life because I was born.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Which is a horrible thing to feel about yourself as a child.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  It's a horrible thing to feel. And...

• 26:20Keke Palmer?

  I'm really sorry that you felt that way.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. It is what it is. But I, I don't, yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, I'm in this process now. I'm like saying this out loud. I'm like, okay, I don't feel that now. So what's like, how did I?

• 26:39Speaker 01

  I just, what I understand now is that that narrative that my mother gave to me was the best that she could do. It was a product of her abusive childhood and the limited information that she had, how stressed out she was. And she was repeating intergenerational trauma and intergenerational abuse. And so bless her heart. I am so lucky and blessed, partly because of her, that I got therapy,

• 27:21Speaker 01

  that I got education about how, you know, these, how these things are passed down. Dr. Joy DeGru, who coined the term post-traumatic slave syndrome, talks about how behaviors are passed down. And she gets this really great example of how, how often like parents are like, oh, he's lazy. Oh, he's lazy. And how that behavior goes all the way back to slavery. Because when the slave master would come and ask a mother about her son, oh, how's he doing? How's he working? Oh, he's lazy. He's lazy. And that was about her not wanting her child to be sold away from her. So she would say, oh, he's lazy. He's lazy.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  And so that just, we kept doing that as a way to protect our child. But then it like becomes this maladaptive thing. But you can undo that. And you can undo that. And then there's the epigenetic piece, the piece where actually trauma and stress is actually passed down in ourselves. There is actionable data, wonderful research that shows that stress and trauma is passed down epigenetically in our cells. And so that's a different kind of work to unlearn that, to create new neuropathways of resilience. But knowing and understanding that, I have so much compassion for my mother.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  And I think I'm really fabulous. So everything that happened, I really try to live this. And it's hard when things are hard. And things have not been easy lately. I always try to remind myself, this is happening for me, not to me. This is happening for me, not to me. And it gets real hard when there's a tragedy, when you, when someone has passed away, like recently, when my mom is going through some stuff, when you're making way less money because of, you know, a fascist regime. And things are way more challenging. And, but this is happening for me, not to me.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  It, for me, it's like I'm not a victim. And this is an opportunity to learn. This is an opportunity for me to maybe pivot because the universe is telling me something. This is happening for me. Meaning there's a lesson. There are new actions that I'm supposed to take. And I'm not always, I'm not fully clear about what all of them are now. But I know for sure. It's easy to believe when things are going well, when the money's in and all the acclaim and all that. This is happening for me, not to me. But when things are not going well, to really internalize that.

• 30:12Keke Palmer?

  What gives you the courage, speaking to all of these things and sharing everything that you're sharing in your book? Because I've thought about this when I've decided to share in my life. When people are out there judging you. We're talking about people judging LGBTQ+ AI community. What allows you the courage to still sit up here and say, tell your story and know that people are going to try to use it to tear you down? What allows you to keep being able to talk your truth?

• 30:47Keke Palmer?

  You know what just came back into my life like it never left?

• 30:52Keke Palmer?

  The Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte. And the second I saw it on my Starbucks app, I knew fall was just around the corner. The first sip took me right back to that fall feeling. And I remember how much I love this part of the year. I can't wait for the leaves to have their whole moment and the air to finally have some personality to it. When I actually want to be outside instead of rushing past everything, that's what I'm excited for. It's funny how a walk I've done 100 times feels brand new just because fall is almost here. That's the thing about fall rituals. They're familiar in the best way. The iconic Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte falls right into that category for me. Same drink, same me.

• 31:37Keke Palmer?

  But somehow it feels like a whole moment every single time it comes back. So let this be your sign to slow down, soak the season in, and grab a Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte as fall begins. Celebrate fall with the return of the iconic Pumpkin Spice Latte. Order now on the Starbucks app.

• 31:59Keke Palmer?

  Taste like fall.

• 32:02Keke Palmer?

  I think I just found our next family trip, and it's Asheville, North Carolina. Yes, September is when the leaves start turning. And I am building this entire trip around a porch. I need to find a home on Airbnb with a real porch because I can already picture mornings out there with coffee and evenings watching the mountains change color while my parents pretend they're not getting emotional about it.

• 32:25Keke Palmer?

  I'm putting the River Arts District on the list, too, because watching glass blowers work is like the kind of thing that my sister will talk about for years. My dad's already asking if Asheville has good barbecue, which, yes, obviously, that's so locked in. We're also doing the Biltmore one afternoon. It's this gorgeous Gilded Age mansion right outside of the city that makes you feel like you've been transported to Versailles. I want to watch my parents walk those gardens like kids again. So what I'm saying is, find a place to stay on Airbnb in Asheville this fall. I'm building the whole trip around that porch so we can get that magical home away from home feel. And I'm not even sorry about it.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  I don't know any other way. Like, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna just shrink? And I think there were a few moments in 2023 when I realized we had lost the culture. There was, I don't know if you remember their Bud Light thing when Kid Rock was shooting Bud Light cans because they had a trans woman on a Bud Light can. And then there was the boycott of Target because they had Pride merch. I was like, oh, we've lost the culture. And that year, half the country had banned gender-affirming care for young people. And I was like, I just remember being despondent. I was shot clean slate that year. And after I was done, I was kind of like-

• 33:39Keke Palmer?

  Clean slate with Norman Lear.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yes, with Norman Lear and George Wallace, which was such, such glorious. But I was drained after that. It was super intense, that shoot. And afterwards, I was like, okay, that was intense and we've lost the culture. How do I, as a, you know, a person who is deeply invested in the humanity of trans people and LGBTQ plus people, how do I message this? How do I, what's the rhetorical strategy? Especially, you know, there was so much dehumanization. And I was like, I'm not debating my humanity with bigots. I'm not, and I'm not gonna concede to like bigot framing. So it's like, how do I figure this out? It was really challenging.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  And but I was, it just, I took some time. And what, the beautiful thing is that like, history happened and things happened and it just became really clear empirically, right? That they, you know, people were sort of talking about, well, you know, children are too young to make decisions about this and they don't know and parents are forcing. The idea, and people are, are saying, so many people are saying that parents are forcing their children to be trans. I was like, that is the most ridiculous thing ever. And it completely discounts all of the conservative parents who find themselves with trans kids and have to navigate it.

• 35:06Keke Palmer?

  But I never understand that because if that were the case, if people could make somebody anything, well, what about all the hetero stuff y'all pushing? You get what I mean? If that, if you could force somebody to be anything, shouldn't we all be whatever the thing y'all pushed? You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't make-

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Period.

• 35:20Keke Palmer?

  You can't, you know what I mean? That doesn't really, it doesn't really work that way.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 35:24Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Of course. But then there was, I forget what state it was. It was, I think it was 20, 2024, maybe? I forget what. But then there was one state that introduced a law banning gender-affirming care up to the age of 26. And so it was like, hmm. This was never just about the children. And then, of course, this current regime has stated that they want to ban gender-affirming care, not just for children, but for everyone. And in the state of Florida, for example, similar to anti-abortion laws, where they would basically make getting an abortion so difficult, you couldn't do it. And they passed a law in Florida saying that you can only get gender-affirming care as an adult from a doctor and not a nurse practitioner, when 80% of trans people in Florida get their

• 36:07Speaker 01

  gender-affirming care from nurse practitioners, 80%. So effectively, that bans gender-affirming care for adults. So there's all kinds of ways, right?

• 36:15Keke Palmer?

  What do we make of this? When we go from Orange is the New Black? I mean, not only when that show hit, was it a hit because it's a great show, but because of all the representation, from the stories that get to get centered. I mean, that's where we first met you. We go from that time where everybody, we're like, yes, we're gonna see this, we're gonna learn about this, we're gonna do this. And then from there, we are to where we are now. It's like we've got, we were so many, we went so many steps ahead in that moment in time. And it was so incredible, like we're speaking to you, 10 years straight on the cover of every magazine, and everybody wants you to do this, you need to be that, you need to be this. And then now we're here in this place. What do you make of it? How did you feel going through that transition?

• 36:58Keke Palmer?

  Like, is it all simply just political? Is it all just simply who's in that house that makes that change?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  It's a lot of things. It's, it's a lot of things. First of all, whenever a minority group all of a sudden gets more visibility or gets more rights, there's backlash. We can look, and I think history is so important to think about. And I often have been thinking about Reconstruction after the Civil War.

• 37:27Keke Palmer?

  Meaning, okay, Reconstruction.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Reconstruction. After the Civil War, there was a Reconstruction era that really, because it only lasted about 10 years. And so there was a period in this country when all of a sudden, black men, not black women, but black men had the right to vote. And all of a sudden, an unprecedented number of black men were in Congress, in the United States Congress, and had rights. And then when the North withdrew from the South, then we had the formation of the KKK. And they began to terrorize black folks and implement Jim Crow laws to make it more difficult for black people to vote and have access to voting. And we are fully rendered second-class citizens again.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  And that representation goes away in Congress. And so the, it's a backlash. It was these, and what really should have happened, I think, after the Civil War, is that every single insurrectionist, because these were people who succeeded-

• 38:26Keke Palmer?

  Tell me, insurrectionists.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Insurrectionists, people who basically were treasonists, that the Confederacy succeeded, seceded from the Union. They were like, we don't want to be a part of the United States anymore because we want these slaves. And it had gotten, it had become untenable to, for the United States of America to condone slavery. The rest of the world was looking at us like we were crazy, even though the fortunes of this country, North and South, were built on this, on the slave labor of black people. It just, it was a bad look. It would just was not cute anymore and it had to go. It was just one, it had to go. But the Southerners, the Confederates were like, no, so we're, we're gonna secede from the Union. And so a war happens.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  And the North won the war, but didn't really prosecute any of the insurrectionists, any of the people who had betrayed the country-

• 39:22Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  And allowed them to stay in power and gave them reparations for their lost slavery. They got reparations, right?

• 39:29Keke Palmer?

  Yes, yes.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  So-

• 39:31Keke Palmer?

  For their business.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  That-

• 39:32Keke Palmer?

  I understand.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  That, thinking about that piece historically and what, why? Why? They, from the very first moments of the beginning of this country, when the Constitution was being written by slave owners, so many concessions were being made in that Constitution to accommodate the South and the owning of slaves.

• 39:58Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  And so many things, the three-fifths compromise, the one-drop rule. When we, Isabella Wilkinson's book Cast, which is like a must-read and a reread. If you've read the book, she, I, I got it. Hitler, Hitler learned how he was gonna do what he was gonna do based on the apartheid system of the United States. And Hitler thought what we were doing was too extreme. Hitler thought our apartheid system was too extreme. And part of that is, when you read her book, you understand that in, the way they made

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Jewish people second-class citizens had to do with how much Jewish blood you had in you, if you were one-third, one-fourth, whatever. But in the United States, because of chattel slavery, we had the one-drop rule. I believe we are the only country, I have, I have not Googled this, but one of, one of the very few countries that had the one-drop rule, if you had one drop of Negro blood, then you were black. Because they, they wanted the labor. And Hitler thought that was like, that's a lot. And this is in the Constitution. And it's all, it's in the Constitution to give the slave states outsized power, to make us three-fifths of a human being, was about counting us in the census so they could

• 41:23Speaker 01

  have more representation in the House of Representatives so they could get their agenda passed, which is diabolical. And there's so many other things that are in our Constitution. Ellie Mistal, who writes for The Nation, has a few lovely books about this. But he talks about how in 1965, the United States, for the very first time, was a multiracial democracy, for the first time in 1965, with the passage of the Voting Rights Act. Before then, we were not a multiracial democracy. We just weren't. Black people didn't have full access to the franchise. Women didn't until, what was it, 1920? Or 1919, I think, something, whatever. 1920, the 19th Amendment.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  And now the Voting Rights Act has been gutted by the Supreme Court. That's, that's, that's happened. That, it's effectively-

• 42:14Keke Palmer?

  So it's kind of basically, we're repeating the same patterns over and over again.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  The long way to answer your question is, whenever there is progress, the people in power who want to keep that power do everything they can to make sure that this marginalized group does not have access to power. And I also think that like, the- A few things hap-- there's the trans piece, but there's also Trump doesn't happen without Obama.

• 42:46Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Trump doesn't happen without Obama. There's a wonderful book that people don't talk enough about. It was called Most Racial, Post-Racial, I think, that was written right after Trump won. And they had data that they looked at people who had voted for Obama and voted for Trump. And what the biggest piece of data for me in that book is that before Barack Obama, there were remnants, because if you-- there were Dixiecrats. So there were Southern Democrats who were very conservative, who were, you know, Confederates, who believed in segregation, but they still voted Democrat. Even after the realignment that happened around 1968 with Nixon.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  But when Barack Obama comes into office, people who didn't necessarily associate the Democratic Party with black people--

• 43:36Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  --associated the Democratic Party with black people and voted accordingly. And there were people so outraged that a black man, a black man would become President of the United States, that someone like Trump coming along with all of his rhetoric. When you look at the-- look back, check my data. The white turnout in 2016 was unprecedented. Like, it was like, white people hadn't turned out like that. White people who hadn't voted for years voted in record numbers in 2016. Hillary Clinton did not exactly inspire the black vote and inspire just the multiracial

• 44:22Speaker 01

  coalition that she, you know, needed for a lot of different reasons. Sexism, but also there is the neoliberal agenda that had failed so many people that-- and the establishment politics of Clinton was not working for people. People were, after the financial crisis of 2008, 2009, there's this wonderful quote, I forget who said it, FDR, when we had our, when the stock market crashed and this began, the Great Depression in 1929, FDR bailed out the people. Obama, and we love, I love, we love Obama, I really love Michelle, but Obama bailed out the banks.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  And so many citizens have never recovered from that. And people who are desperate will try anything. And so a lot of people went with him, some, a lot of it, I just, I love my democratic socialists and my leftist folks, you know, I'm one of you, but like, we can't just reduce it to class when this is so white supremacist and racist.

• 45:41Keke Palmer?

  I have to know what your conversations were like, because you came online and you were talking about how you ended up dating a Trump, you found yourself falling in love with a Trump supporter. What were y'all conversations like?

• 45:57Keke Palmer?

  Discover Pandora Talisman, a new collection designed to help you express every side of who you are, because the most powerful statement you can make is being yourself. I'm a Virgo, capital V, which means I notice everything, I remember everything, and I have opinions about everything, but I keep most of them in a very organized mental filing cabinet. That's the sign. Analytical on the inside, polished on the outside, and deeply particular about what we put on our bodies. So when I tell you I found my Zodiac symbol in the Pandora Talisman collection and immediately thought, finally, somebody captured what it feels like to be this. I mean that. It's not just a cute charm, it's the whole ethos.

• 46:40Keke Palmer?

  Pandora Talisman understood the assignment because the whole collection is built on that idea. Personalized pieces, meaningful symbols, designs that reflect what you stand for and how you choose to show up. I've been styling mine as a conversation starter. Someone asks about the piece, and suddenly we're talking about identity, about what it means to carry something on our body that represents who you actually are. That's not just accessories, that's communication. I've been layering mine with gold pieces on days I feel bold, or wearing it solo on a thin chain when I want something quiet that still says something loud. Pandora Talisman, a new language of self-expression, because every version of you deserves to be seen.

• 47:25Keke Palmer?

  Shop new styles in store or online at pandora.net. This episode is supported by FX's The Drop, a snowfall saga. Wanda and Leon are back, but this time they're chasing a different kind of legacy. As West Coast rap begins to take over 90s Los Angeles, Wanda is betting on a new generation of artists ready to make a name for themselves in hip-hop. But in a city where every opportunity comes with a price, they'll have to decide what they're willing to risk to leave their mark. FX's The Drop premieres September 8th on FX and Hulu. I cannot tell you how much makeup I have bought that looked right in the store and then betrayed me in natural light.

• 48:08Keke Palmer?

  The audacity. I'd get home, blend it out, step outside, and suddenly I'm looking casket-ready. Two shades off and not a single person said anything. Sephora fixed that for me. Okay, they have the best brands all in one place with a range of shades, coverage levels, and finishes, so you're not just guessing and hoping for the best. Right now, I'm wearing my favorite Hourglass Vanish Airbrush Full Coverage Long-Wear Concealer for natural finish. That's long-lasting, okay? It is my perfect match. Can't you tell? Get a close-up look. Plus, their beauty advisors and shade matching tools take the guesswork out entirely, in store or online.

• 48:52Keke Palmer?

  So no more settling, no more close enough. Visit Sephora to find your match.

• 49:01Keke Palmer?

  What was the, what did you, was it turned on from the debates? You know, what got you guys into it? How did you, you know what I mean? How did you, with such different views, so with scenes?

• 49:12Speaker 01

  I'm so over talking about him.

• 49:15Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, sorry to bring it up, but I just started thinking about, I thought he was in a doozy.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  It's like how did it happen? And the reason I actually talked about it publicly was because I was like, I thought it was, it would be an interesting conversation, how does this happen?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  And I thought people would understand that Laverne is very left-wing, like, way to the left. So how would this happen, and how does it happen? And it--

• 49:41Keke Palmer?

  But you seem quite nuanced, too, so I'm just, yeah, I'm like, interested.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  He, okay, first of all, when I met him, so I was living in LA, but I was going back and forth because I was shooting a show, and so I was on Tinder. We matched on Tinder in the fall of 2019, weren't able to get together because of scheduling. The pandemic happens and he just starts messaging me, like, almost daily. I was in LA, he was in New York, and he seemed really cool and he was consistent. Consistency is one of the things I look for. And we were just having fun conversations. He was sexy AF.

• 50:16Keke Palmer?

  Yes, girl.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Is fine.

• 50:20Keke Palmer?

  White dude.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  White dude.

• 50:22Keke Palmer?

  What type of white dude fine?

• 50:24Speaker 01

  White dude's fine, 6'1".

• 50:27Keke Palmer?

  6'1", okay.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  6'1", he works out six days a week, no steroids, though, he like, he gets his pump on.

• 50:37Keke Palmer?

  Boy band fine, are we talking brunette or we talking blonde?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  He's blonde, blonde hair, blue eyes, boy band, but like, he has a boyish, a little more boyish when I met him, he was 26 when we met. A little more boyish in person than in his photos. In his photos, he was giving man, but he had a boyish quality in person. But like, jacked, but not too jacked.

• 50:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, we not on the Schwarzenegger.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  The swole.

• 51:01Keke Palmer?

  I don't like the swole either. No shade, no shade.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  It's not my thing. It was, he was, it was perfection. It was like a very elevated, it was, he's bulkier than a swimmer's build, but it's, he's lean as well. It depends, he bulks up in the winter, he's very, you know, intense about his workouts. And just, I mean--

• 51:24Keke Palmer?

  So the attraction was a big part.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  I'd rather not objectify, the physical attraction--

• 51:27Keke Palmer?

  Was there.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  --was incredible. And the physical chemistry was amazing. And that's hard to find, especially as a trans woman. Being a trans woman and having compatibility sexually is very difficult. And when I met him, I was not, it was not a boyfriend screening, I was not looking for a boyfriend. I don't know if you have a different screening for boyfriend versus like, um--

• 51:50Keke Palmer?

  But we just kicking it, yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  You know, because I didn't even live in New York.

• 51:53Keke Palmer?

  Jump off is too funny.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  I mean-- Your little Kim, your little Kim. With the pecs and the buns and the bends, tight legs with the three-inch rims, jumping out the jabber with the tims. Keep it real, live good, East Coast, West Coast, worldwide. I'm a playa's niggas, let me hear you say, "Rah, rah."

• 52:16Speaker 01

  We love little Kim.

• 52:17Keke Palmer?

  We do love little Kim.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  So I, yeah, I jump off, you know, just to, you know, friends with benefits. Literally, I didn't even live in New York. So I was like, when I would come to New York, I would love to have like, you know, a gentleman, but it wasn't gonna be serious. But we met and we just clicked. And the conversation was great and the tenderness, love language was amazing. The sex was like, I was, I, so I was, this was, I was, 2016, I was, 2020, I'm sorry. So this is six years ago. I'm 40, 54 now. So I was 48. So I thought my days of like having sex three or four times a night were done.

• 52:58Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, girl, that sounds incredible.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  I thought I was done with all that. Apparently, I wasn't.

• 53:05Keke Palmer?

  Turned you nut, everything but loose, girl. Yes, hair like that.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. And he lived for the messy hair, girl. Girl, so yes, I was, yeah.

• 53:18Keke Palmer?

  So I'm getting the connection.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Three, four times a night. So that, so amazing physical connection. He was really charming and funny. He made me laugh. And so it was really light in the beginning. They were little. I remember one time, it's so funny, because we met July 1st, 2020. And I didn't remember this, but he told me, finally, like, he didn't tell me he was a cop till November. So we meet in July, he tells me he's a cop in November. And he said, I'm, because apparently I said, we need to defund these police. Because, you know, in 2020, we were all trying to defund the police. And reallocate resources is still, you know, we definitely need to abolish ICE. Anyway. So I like, apparently said, we need to defund the police on our first meeting. And he was like, I'm definitely not gonna tell her now. And it's interesting thinking about.

• 53:59Keke Palmer?

  So he was hiding himself.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Correct. And he told me, when he said, when he finally told me, he said, I don't feel safe telling people. And when he, when we met on Tinder, like, I don't expect him to tell me, because like, he doesn't know me from a can of paint. And then when we meet, like, it's just gonna go somewhere. And when he realized we were like, making a real connection, that's when he told me. And I, and when he said he didn't feel safe, I got it. He told me a story about when he was on social media, like, how someone he had arrested, like, you know, found him and threatened his family. And so he can't be on social media. And it just, so I was like, okay, I got that. And I had a no cop policy. Because it's just some bad experiences I had dating cops, honestly, really bad. And it just seemed like,

• 54:45Speaker 01

  something's going, something's wrong there. So I just was like, hmm, let's not do that. And, but then I, it already fallen for him. And we already had this connection. And the man made me feel good all over. Do you know the Stephanie Mills song? Do we know the Stephanie Mills song? I feel good, I feel good all over. It was giving that. It was giving all that. So I was like, okay, let me see if I can work with this.

• 55:09Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  And what's interesting to me about, what I've learned about conservative men through this and just talk, hearing from other, mostly trans women and other women, but mostly trans women who've dated conservative men, is that they, they can compartmentalize. There are so many conservative men who have, who are dating black women, who are dating a lot Latina women, while supporting ICE. So there's a compartmentalization that happens there. And he definitely, like, the anti-trans policies he did wasn't in favor of, but he did, it's like.

• 55:45Keke Palmer?

  Were you guys out in public? Was he concerned with?

• 55:48Speaker 01

  This is the pandemic. So no one was out in public during the pandemic. Like, in the, when, in the beginning, when we started, when we fell in love, then we like, we're like, okay, are we gonna, let's try to date. So then we started, we started going to dinners and stuff, like, in 2021. Valentine's Day was actually, 2021 was our first, like, official, like, date. We went out to a restaurant. And it was, I was strangely nervous. But it was all, it was lovely. It was great. And then we started, like, going out to dinners and vacations and.

• 56:16Keke Palmer?

  What was the straw that broke the camel's back?

• 56:22Speaker 01

  This is all in the book, and it was intense. So over the years, we would get into political conversations. And when he was sober, it would always be an agree to disagree. And he was, what was, what was sad to me is that he was so, I was aware that he was so sort of indoctrinated with misinformation and, and this algorithm, that there was no getting through to him. This is after we broke up. We, I had unblocked him. Because I'd block after.

• 56:54Keke Palmer?

  Come on, I know.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  And we were talking about the, there was this fake story about Venezuelan gangs in, like, Colorado, who were like, taking over apartment buildings. And he tells me about this for the first time. And then literally the next day, I see a news story about it that debunks that. And they said that that story was actually a lie. That literally the mayor of the city, the chief of police, people from the apartment building were actually having a protest to, like, raise awareness that this is actually a predatory landlord who had put this story out so he could, like, have these slum buildings. And so I find this sort of, you know, pretty neutral news report and send it to him. And I was like, this is actually not true. And he was like, I don't care, I still believe it. And I was just like.

• 57:37Keke Palmer?

  And it's interesting, because when you said that his age was 26, and I've had this, even though I'm not your age, because I think I started so early, a lot of times I feel like I do feel like past the 30s. Sometimes I do feel like I'm 40 or 50. And when I've dated guys my age.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  How old are you now?

• 57:53Keke Palmer?

  32.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Okay. He's 32 now.

• 57:56Keke Palmer?

  It would sometimes be where I'm having this conversation. It's like, I don't even know if this is really you, or if this is just your immaturity and you not coming into your own understanding. Yeah. Like, do you know yourself yet?

• 58:07Speaker 01

  And programming. And there was a moment after we broke up, when I asked him, I was like, was there ever a moment in your life when you realized everything you were told was a lie? And you had to reevaluate, re-educate, reconsider everything?

• 58:21Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  And he said, no, I don't think that way. I just try to be the best person I can. And

• 58:27Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  That says it all. But what I, what I, what I realized is that if he realized everything he had been told was a lie, as a straight, assumed, white man with pretty privilege, fine as [BLEEP], he would have to change his friend group, quit his job, move.

• 58:48Keke Palmer?

  Be a lot to be accountable to.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  No, move. Learn other things in other ways. It would have, he would have to completely change his life. That would be too much. So.

• 58:56Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  It'd be a lot. So the straw that broke the camel's back, there were two incidences there, right in the book, right about in the book, that I won't go into too much detail. But like, it was in October 1st. October 1st, 2023.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  I was, we were hanging out. He went to do a work thing, hang out with some work buddies, got really drunk, came back and talked to me crazy. Like, like, he had never done this before. I don't, we don't allow this. We don't, I don't. At this, I've had men talk to me crazy before. And this is, that's something that just not happened. He said some, I was like, the thing, read it in the book. He's, I was like, I got up from the sofa and I went into the bedroom and I was fuming and I had, I was working, I was, had work to do. I finished the work. I came out, I was like, we need to break up. This is, we need to break up. And he was like, just one thing we can't work it through. I said, you can't talk to me that way. That's unacceptable.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  And I was, it was hard, but I was just like, absolutely not. MFer.

• 1:00:04Keke Palmer?

  MFer.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  And he was angry. And then he got so angry, that like man rage thing. And he's the watch I had given him. Girl, and he leaves. And then the fob for the apartment, anyway, to get his car, he forgot. He, when he, because he gave, threw the keys with the fob. He couldn't get into the garage, because he didn't have the fob. So he had to come back.

• 1:00:24Keke Palmer?

  No, that's so weird when that happens, when you're like, ah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  And then we like have a talk. And then I start feeling bad for him. And then I also, in retrospect, didn't feel fully safe. I felt scared.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  It was weird, but I, eventually we kind of got back together, but it was tricky from like October to, to March of the next year. And he turned 30 in 20, in February, February is his birthday. And I was hosting the red carpet at the SAG Awards. So it was the second year in a row I missed his birthday. And I felt awful, but I had to work. You know, I can't change the SAG Awards, because my boyfriend's birthday. So I was like, why don't, after award season, let's do like a vacation and celebrate. So last week of March, we went to Miami. And that whole trip was the straw that broke the camel's back. And you gotta read about that, because, girl, that was, that was.

• 1:01:18Keke Palmer?

  And y'all have never spoken since.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  No, we have. We, so that was a hot mess. And I didn't want to break, I didn't want to break up with him while we were still there. Like, two days before we were supposed to leave, I was like, this is over. But like, it was gonna be awkward. So I waited till we got back to New York. Literally, I flew back to New York. And then I had to go, and then I had a day, and then I had to fly to LA to prep for a movie.

• 1:01:42Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  And so I was, I'd gone to LA and I was with my acting coach. And I was like, I need to break up with this, I need to break up with this man. And, because I couldn't focus. And so like, I did it, I did it over the phone, which is not ideal, but I did. And then when I break up with someone, I have a 30-day no-contact rule, just to like.

• 1:02:02Keke Palmer?

  Just to get it done.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Exactly. And he was so upset. And so like, after the 30 days, he reached out and he was. Obviously, he wasn't the best way to break up with someone. He was, he fell to abandon, blah, blah, blah. And then we talked for like a few more weeks and then I blocked him. And, and then I didn't hear from him until, like, then there was a moment before the election when we, when we talked, um, just about something. Um, he, I'm blocked and he asked, something political came, I was ranting about him politically. He was blocked again and then when, um, I went viral talking about us. Um, and I didn't think he would even ever find out about it. Um, algorithms, different algorithms.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  We took, and but it went mega viral.

• 1:02:51Keke Palmer?

  Mega.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  And apparently after, he had told a few friends, he told like four or five friends about me. And but after we broke up, the therapist that he had seen like once or twice said, he, cause he said if we ever got back together, he would, um, tell all his friends about us. And so the therapist suggested, well, even though you're not together, why don't you tell your friends now? And so apparently he told 19 of his friends, so.

• 1:03:13Keke Palmer?

  19 is such a specific number.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  That's what he told me. And so when it goes viral that I had dated a Republican New York City police officer, his phone blew up, like his phone blew up and his, and his mother was, his mother was gonna come to the show, girl.

• 1:03:29Keke Palmer?

  What, what do you mean, mother was gonna come to the show?

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  His mother was like to my, cause I, I was doing a solo show called Girl, How Did I Get Here? And I was talking, gonna be talking about the relationship in the show.

• 1:03:37Keke Palmer?

  Oh, yes, and his mother was gonna come to the show?

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  This is what he tells me, it's literally a day after the show, I get a text from a number I don't recognize. I was like, what is this? And he's like, this is Giuseppe, it's his name in the book. We need to talk. It's not his real name.

• 1:03:52Keke Palmer?

  Giuseppe, I'm like, Giuseppe.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Giuseppe, I thought, he's Italian American.

• 1:03:56Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  He's Italian American and is actually because of the opera composer Giuseppe Verdi, I love opera. And I thought it'd be funny. And it is funny, Giuseppe. Anyway, the day after the show.

• 1:04:07Keke Palmer?

  Girl, you are a fool.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  The day after the show, I get a text and he's like, we need to talk. And I was just like, and girl, he tell, then he tells me all this, that he told the 19 friends that his mom was upset. She was like, he convinced her not to come to the show, what does she say about my son, girl?

• 1:04:22Keke Palmer?

  Did he feel exploited? Did he do, like, you didn't really love me? Did he go into like, how could you like?

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  He, he, yes.

• 1:04:28Keke Palmer?

  Treat me like a Taylor Swift song, you know?

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  He did, he felt like, what he felt was a sacred connection, a spiritual connection. A soul, he thought of me as his soulmate. He thought of me as his soulmate and he felt like I cheapened that. He felt, um, to reduce someone to their political affiliation in their career. He was like, who does that? I'm like, a lot of people do that. Um, and I was promoting a show.

• 1:04:59Keke Palmer?

  And it's your life.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  And in retrospect, in retrospect, there, it was part of a whole, I had done a whole live and then I clipped that section from the live, but you know, I talked about his blonde hair and blue eyes and how fine he was. I, I objectified him and there was a level of dehumanization unconsciously that I did do, that I should, I should hold myself accountable for. So that's, that's unfortunate, that's, I never want to dehumanize anyone.

• 1:05:25Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Um, but I also thought, what I thought, particularly in 2025, I thought it would be an interesting story to see how a very leftist, um, um, black trans woman could date a Republican cop, um, who voted for Trump three times. And, but the, what the public saw was, um.

• 1:05:49Keke Palmer?

  Internalized anti-blackness.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Yes, they thought because of, I mentioned the blonde hair and blue eye. They thought that I was secretly MAGA.

• 1:05:57Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Which I understand now, I just, I never imagined anyone would think that about me, but I get it now. Cause we've now discovered lots of people who are.

• 1:06:07Keke Palmer?

  I have a curiosity of what is it lies?

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  But I'm not MAGA, I never voted for him. I voted for Hillary in 2016, I voted for Bernie in 2020, and I voted for Kamala in 2024.

• 1:06:18Keke Palmer?

  A lot of times people don't understand nuance though, unfortunately. And so, you know, living in spaces of contradiction and still being truthful to yourself or authentic. I, I find that we're in an era where people don't understand that, that some, that multiple things can be true. Um, especially when it pertains to people that disagree with them. No one can imagine loving or caring or having any type of compatibility with someone they don't agree with.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  If you go online, and if you go online, people, I mean, you see the comments, how could you date someone who, you know, you're dating your oppressor, you dating someone who votes against your interest? Um, you know, all the things and I, I get it and I understand it. And I, you know, I think some of it is generational and this is, and I met him, if I had met him in 2025, it was, it would have been different. There was a climate, what I, I mean, the post was cringe. I, I can see that it was cringe AF in retrospect and.

• 1:07:10Keke Palmer?

  It depends on context.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  But 2025, people were like, Trump was wreaking havoc. People were, people did not want to hear it. Like people like did not want to hear it and I get that and I understand that.

• 1:07:23Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  I really do and so it was tone deaf. Um, and the nuance, of course, of, of my situation was lost and.

• 1:07:33Keke Palmer?

  On the anti.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  But, but I'm also, I, I do want to say, I'm, I'm Gen X, I'm from a different generation. I remember Arnold Schwarzenegger dated Maria Shriver, I think.

• 1:07:42Keke Palmer?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  And they were, he was a Republican, she was a Democrat. And I think like I had learned in dating to like not talk about politics too early because you would probably, it ruined the vibe, it ruined the, you know?

• 1:07:56Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, they used to say, don't talk about religion, don't talk about politics.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Let's not, because it just, you know, cause most, honestly, most of the men that I have dated, I found out, I found out that they're conservative and for whatever reason, a lot of conservative men, not all, but a lot of them like trans women.

• 1:08:13Keke Palmer?

  So this is what I wanted to get to and ask about is, cause you know, obviously I saw the post, I follow you and I, I was intrigued by the storyline more than anything, but I was seeing, of course, you were getting that backlash, especially from the community. Black folks are like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Trans folks.

• 1:08:27Keke Palmer?

  Trans folks, so I was curious, you know, do you date black men? Are black men very, like, what is your, what has been your experience as a trans woman? With dating black men?

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Oh, girl.

• 1:08:41Keke Palmer?

  That's what I was, that's what I was curious about when I saw it, I was like, well, what? Cause people always say, you should, you should, well, well, who's dating, you don't know who's interested in me.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  So people had assumed, I, cause my, cause the one boyfriend I went public with was white. Um, and so they were, oh, of course she's, I remember when I posted him, of course she's dating a white man, it's not surprising. Um, and then like I, my, then I talk about another boyfriend who's white, so they're like, oh. But I, my experience dating black men has been, I don't say this just about black men, I, all men. All men are problematic of all races. But what I will say in my 54 years, I have gone on dates with men of every race. Black, I mean, obviously I'm from Mobile, Alabama, the first, um, um, men I had sex with and dated were black men. And I love black men.

• 1:09:32Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  In my, like, I would, there's a part of me that would love to give my fans, you know, we can't date for our fans, so. Love to give my fans this like black love fantasy.

• 1:09:44Keke Palmer?

  For sure.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  If some man showed up like properly, I remember this one, um, black guy I had gone out with, he was so fine, he was so fine. And he had a PhD in like mathematics.

• 1:09:56Keke Palmer?

  Come on.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Out, he was educated, I was like, it was okay, yes. We had a great, like, two dates and I, and I, you know, I gave it up on the second date. And it was cute. I was, I was like, I could do this. Ghosted, ghosted, I can't make him like call me back.

• 1:10:17Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, this is, and then, oh my God, there's another one. These are stories that didn't make the book, there's another, um, black guy, when I first moved to LA and I was just, you know, I was on the ass, but like kind of secretly, cause I was in an open relationship, so I had, you know.

• 1:10:30Keke Palmer?

  Ooh, open relationship, so unique.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Only one I've been in, wouldn't do it again, but I met, me this like, fine, oh my God.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Fine, black man, like personal trainer, he had just moved to LA from like DC, I can't, like 6'3", like waves on swim, like body.

• 1:10:49Keke Palmer?

  So they hate one him.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Like just body. And it was, you know, it was like a little thing, whatever. I'd, after, it was, it was, I wasn't trying to date him, but after we, um, you know, had some fun, we're literally lying there naked and he's like, yeah, I'm looking for a sugar mama. I was like, how is that going for you?

• 1:11:08Keke Palmer?

  Now come on, [BLEEP].

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  How is that going for you? I was like, good luck with that.

• 1:11:11Keke Palmer?

  Uh-uh, do I love Beyonce? And not saying that about Beyonce's life, I'm saying it's the relationship.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  That song though.

• 1:11:17Keke Palmer?

  Su- su- sugar mama.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Honestly, with the, with, with the, with the Republican ex, I was like, I really understood what Beyonce was singing about. I was like, there was one time, I was like, I had, I was so turned out, I was like, well, he does need a car. I did not do it, I didn't do it, I have never, I've never.

• 1:11:38Keke Palmer?

  I'mma buy him a short set.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Girl, I was like.

• 1:11:40Keke Palmer?

  He needs a car.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  I've never flown a man out.

• 1:11:44Keke Palmer?

  Oh my God, you never flew down?

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  I don't pay for dinners, I don't pay, and when we went on vacations, when, um, I like a certain kind of accommodation. And I can't expect, and I've made more money than all the, you know, past three boyfriends. I like a certain kind of villa, a certain, and I can't expect them to pay for that. So I'm like, I'm going on vacation, this is the accommodation, if you want to join me, get your ticket.

• 1:12:09Keke Palmer?

  Get your [BLEEP].

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  And, and join me. But I have to say, all of, um, my last three boyfriends have all contributed to the villa. Um, the, the Republican ex paid half. I was like, I didn't expect it, cause I was like, you know.

• 1:12:24Keke Palmer?

  The villa's a hundred thousand dollars.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  It was not a hundred thousand dollars, girl. Um, but, but then all of them paid for every meal, every whatever, you know? Those, so these are the kinds of men, and I'm like, I'm a feminist, I'm very anti-patriarchal, but I also, these are the contradictions of life, I.

• 1:12:43Keke Palmer?

  Why?

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  If I'm, if, if a man is going Dutch with me on a first date, that's gonna be our last date.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  And that's effed up, maybe, but whatever. It is what it is.

• 1:12:55Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  So, um, like, what was the, where were we?

• 1:13:01Keke Palmer?

  We were talking about, I was just.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Oh, black men.

• 1:13:03Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  So, I, so, yes, I've had, I've had situationship.

• 1:13:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  With black men over the years, but they were never really boyfriend worthy. They never, like, tried to be my boyfriend. I do write about an African guy who lived on my block, um, who we were, you know. That's a good story. So, I love, I love black men.

• 1:13:21Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  I'm insanely physically attracted to black men.

• 1:13:25Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Oh, there's this black man online, oh, there's this, I can't say it. He's so smart.

• 1:13:30Keke Palmer?

  Oh, tell me who that is.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  He's, I'll have, I'll show you his Instagram page. He's so smart.

• 1:13:35Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  And he's so fine. It's like he's woke and fine and it just like.

• 1:13:39Keke Palmer?

  He's woke and fine.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Smart.

• 1:13:41Keke Palmer?

  I heard about some, you mentioned any rappers in the book, Transcendence? Any rappers, any actors, any?

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  There had been, there are two rappers who, um, who, one, when I first kind of came on the scene, he would very kind of overtly hit on me, like, just really excited to see me every time he saw me. And I was just kind of like, he's like, and it was a lot. And he was cute and I was open to it. And then, like, there was a period when I just kept running into him. And I remember we were at Soho House and he was in a meeting. And then all of that energy that he was always excited about, it just dissipated.

• 1:14:20Keke Palmer?

  Oh.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  I think it was, I think it was, honestly, I wasn't going anywhere. I was proximity, he may have started dating someone, I think, because this particular one, all his dating stuff was, we knew. Um, anyway, so. And, and, and I heard through the grapevine that he likes the girls, um, because, because we know.

• 1:14:44Keke Palmer?

  I think I know.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Even with the NDAs, the girls know. And then there was another rapper who, who threw it, I didn't write about this in the book. He threw it hard in front of, it's at Soho House, too. And I have witnesses.

• 1:14:55Keke Palmer?

  I didn't take my ass to Soho House where they threw it.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  My girlfriends were like, girl, he wants you. And he asked for my, he asked for my number and every, every woman was throwing their P words at this man. So, I was just like, I'm not, and part of it too, I was at the, this is like 2015. So, I was like, do I really want to date this man? He's more famous than me. I don't want to be, like, known for, like, dating this guy. And he probably never dated me openly and I am not.

• 1:15:22Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Going to sleep with some rapper on the DA. I'm Laverne Cox.

• 1:15:25Keke Palmer?

  I know, that's right.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  This is not going to happen. So, I was just like, he was fine, he's fine. And he.

• 1:15:29Keke Palmer?

  I can't wait to find out who it is.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  His game was so, like, girl, his game was amazing. It was like, I was like, oh, and he looked good back then, too. That's good now. And then he was like, can I get your number? And I was like, if you really want it, you can find it.

• 1:15:47Keke Palmer?

  God, hell, he gonna do that, girl?

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Girl, he could DM me, he could, like.

• 1:15:53Keke Palmer?

  He just asked your ass.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  There are so many, when you are.

• 1:15:58Keke Palmer?

  What?

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  When you're a famous rapper, if you re, you can't make it easy for them.

• 1:16:02Keke Palmer?

  He about to send his ass on the scavenger hunt, god damn.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Yes, if you, if, girl.

• 1:16:05Keke Palmer?

  I'm too frank. Oh, sure, honey. A one, two, two. You got it?

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  When everybody, everybody wants to [BLEEP] this man. Like, he, like, everybody. I'm not making it easy. I'm not making it easy. I'm like, if you really want.

• 1:16:21Keke Palmer?

  But you made it a damn game. So, did you, so we never got further because he couldn't find your damn number?

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  We never got further. And rejection is God's protection. Girl, the things that have come out, woo, I dodged a bullet.

• 1:16:34Keke Palmer?

  The things that have come out.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  But I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have slept, he would have had to take me out and treat me right. And I, he wouldn't have done that. He wouldn't have done that.

• 1:16:41Keke Palmer?

  I can't wait to get the information on that. Okay, I have to leave so soon.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  This always happens, I talk too much.

• 1:16:46Keke Palmer?

  No, but you are so, how about we do it again?

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  I'm down.

• 1:16:49Keke Palmer?

  Because you are so much fun. I just love how open, how real you are.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Can I tell you how proud I am of you? How inspired I am by you and how, um.

• 1:17:03Keke Palmer?

  I get you.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  How you've diversified your brand, the branding piece of it. You're so yourself, but then you're a brilliant actor. You're brill, you can sing.

• 1:17:16Keke Palmer?

  Thank you.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Like, you're, you're so talented and it's just, it's really, really wonderful. And I'm, like, I think it's, the parents must be amazing. Because you can't do this without really good parents, so.

• 1:17:28Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, but look at you, though. You've been able to do everything you've done regardless of whatever support you did or didn't have.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  My mother's amazing. Like, with, with ever her shortcomings, my mother is an amazing, remarkable, resilient woman. She is. And flawed, like all of us.

• 1:17:46Keke Palmer?

  Like all of us.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 1:17:48Keke Palmer?

  I love you.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  I love you, too.

• 1:17:49Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, I love you so much.

• 1:17:54Keke Palmer?

  Today, Laverne reminded us that freedom doesn't always look like a headline or a history-making moment. Sometimes it looks like releasing shame, choosing yourself, loving out loud, laughing, getting dressed because it makes you feel good, speaking your truth, even when it's hard. Freedom isn't about having a perfect life. It's about finally living your life as yourself. And if there's one thing Laverne shows us, it's that the freedom we come is from being ourselves, not someone else. It's never having to hide who you are again. That's the bravest thing any of us can do. Anyway, I'll see you next time. Baby, this is Keke Palmer.