What No One Wants to Admit About Boys, Gender Roles & Fatherhood | Warren Farrell (Fan Fav)

This is a fan fav episode. We are living through interesting times where gender roles are an ongoing heated discussion. Tempers and passion flare from all sides, but what we cannot ignore is the damage being done to both boys and girls. There have been intense movements that even though they are noble they have caused damage along the way socially in the psyche of young boys and girls. If you follow Tom you’ve heard him say time and time again, we are all having a biological experience. What does this biological experience become when society and doctrine contradict and suppress the nature of our biological experiences? Dr. Warren Farrell joins Tom to discuss his latest book, The Boy Crisis, Why Our Boys Are Struggling and What We Can Do About It. The resolution as Dr. Warren states begins with understanding different sides of the argument. Learning how to steel man the opposing sides' argument will help create a foundation where the real problem, lack of father involvement and fatherless homes, can be addressed for the sake of our boys (and girls). ORIGINAL AIR DATE: 1-6-22 Check out Warren Farrell’s new book, The Boy Crisis: https://amzn.to/3JMfjHR SHOW NOTES: 0:00 | Introduction to Warren Farrel 1:25 | Hear Opposing Perspectives 9:04 | Steel Man Arguments 22:47 | Disposability of Men 28:55 | Missing Fathers & The Boy Crisis 31:27 | Checks & Balances Parenting 45:11 | Catch 22 of Work & Family 49:17 | Be Your Partner’s Hero 56:02 | Falling In Love With Superman 59:29 | Learned Gender Roles 1:10:39 | The Myth of Male Power 1:23:08 | Lack of Father Involvement CHECK OUT OUR SPONSORS Vital Proteins: Get 20% off by going to ⁠https://www.vitalproteins.com⁠ https://www.vitalproteins.com and entering promo code IMPACT at check out Allio Capital: Macro investing for people who want to understand the big picture. Download their app in the App Store or at Google Play, or text my name “TOM” to 511511. SleepMe: Visit ⁠https://sleep.me/impact⁠ https://sleep.me/impact to get your Chilipad and save 20% with code IMPACT. Try it risk-free with their 30-night sleep trial and free shipping. Tailor Brands: 35% off ⁠https://tailorbrands.com/podcast35⁠ https://tailorbrands.com/podcast35Shopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at ⁠https://shopify.com/impact⁠ https://shopify.com/impactHims: Start your free online visit today at ⁠https://hims.com/IMPACT⁠ https://hims.com/IMPACT. Linkedin: Post your job free at ⁠https://linkedin.com/impacttheory⁠ https://linkedin.com/impacttheory What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here: If you want my help... STARTING a business:https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20showjoin me here at ZERO TO FOUNDER https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show SCALING a business:https://tombilyeu.com/callsee if you qualify here. https://tombilyeu.com/call Get my battle-tested strategies and insights delivered weekly to your inbox:https://tombilyeu.com/sign up here. https://tombilyeu.com/ ********************************************************************** If you're serious about leveling up your life, I urge you to check out my new podcast,Tom Bilyeu’s Mindset Playbook https://open.spotify.com/show/47VE90Cittmo6TGGFqg2xf —a goldmine of my most impactful episodes on mindset, business, and health. Trust me, your future self will thank you. ********************************************************************** LISTEN TO IMPACT THEORY AD FREE + BONUS EPISODES on APPLE PODCASTS:http://apple.co/impacttheoryapple.co/impacttheory http://apple.co/impacttheory ********************************************************************** FOLLOW TOM: Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok:https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=enhttps://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter:https://twitter.com/tombilyeuhttps://twitter.com/tombilyeu YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeuhttps://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

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• 0:45Tom Bilyeu?

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• 1:07Speaker 01

  Everyone needs to be heard. And when people are heard, they get less angry. So we often talk about haters and the far right usually is the ones accused of being haters. But what I've discovered in 30 years of doing couples communication is that whenever someone is angry, that angry anger is almost always a vulnerability's mask.

• 1:36Tom Bilyeu?

  Warren Farrell, welcome to the show.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Thank you. I'm looking very forward to being with you.

• 1:44Tom Bilyeu?

  Me too. So your book, The Boy Crisis, and it'll be great to get a little bit of your background because you actually started focused on women's issues and really have an incredible pedigree there, which helps because I think this book, written by anybody else in today's climate, might not be received as well. But I found the book utterly shocking. I had no idea, even as a guy myself, I literally had no idea that there was a boy crisis going on.

• 2:11Tom Bilyeu?

  The book is so dense with not only the explanation causes effect, but just the data. And so the data is very, very compelling. But before we get into that, give us a little bit of your background in women's issues and how you ended up studying the things that led to writing The Boy Crisis.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  I was teaching political science at Rutgers University in 1969, and the women's movement began to surface. And I was really, I talked about it, I guess with fire in my belly, my students said, and incorporated that into the course. And, you know, while other people, at that was the point in time when the women's movement was being mocked as, you know, a bunch of man-hating lesbians, bra burners, et cetera. And I was saying, let's take a different view of this. And, but of course, when I took a different view, I took half the class to take one view and half the class to agree with that critique. And then, of course, I would reverse the people that...

• 3:12Tom Bilyeu?

  What was the view that you had them take?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Oh, you know, some people were saying that, you know, the women's movement is just a bunch of lesbians and man-haters, bra burners. So I had half the class take some version of that view, then half the class take, you know, no, the women's movement is an evolutionary shift. It's, you know, it's very powerful. It's very important, very needed. And then because my, one of my important folk I for throughout all of my life has been the importance that, that knowing how to listen to different perspectives is more important than the rightness of the wrongness of your perspective. So I would, so I then would have everybody who felt one way and, you know, I'd have them shift positions and argue from the position that they had just heard. And

• 3:55Speaker 01

  and so that was, but I had, you know, my own biases were very supportive of the women's movement and, but I tried to always make sure that while those, while that perspective was articulated, that also that, that everyone in the class who felt differently was given a respect and, and heard very well.

• 4:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Why do you think that's so important? So why is listening well more important than just figuring out that you're right?

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Because the...

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Everyone needs to be heard. And when people are heard, they get less angry. So we often talk about haters. And the, you know, the far right usually is the ones accused of being haters. But I, what I've discovered in thirty years of doing couples communication is that whenever someone is angry, that angry anger is almost always vulnerabilities mask. You start understanding and hearing a person who's angry and just watch their anger melt. And there's, and the more, the angrier they are, the more shocked they are that the, somebody else can hear them.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  And so the, you know, when people write me really angry letters, which is not that often, but when I have gotten them, I write back an empathy, you know, empathy for what they're saying. And invariably, without a single exception, I've gotten back letters that was, were like, oh, wow, all right. And then they start acting like it's almost like I'm corresponding with two different people. And so the, what I feel is that, you know, what we need now is for, you know, the far right to hear, to be trained in universities, to be able to hear the far left and the far left to be able to hear the far right. And to be able to sort of say, okay, I may disagree with you.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  I may disagree with you 100%, but let me see if I have an accurate interpretation of what you're trying to tell me. And if you tell me I don't, I'm going to work on it until you say to me, that's exactly what I meant to impart to you. And then for me to ask the question, am I missing anything about what you were trying to tell me? And then the other person working on what I missed, telling me what I missed, and me working on that until the person who's talking says, no, you didn't miss anything. And so, once you do that, then somebody feels safe that did not feel safe before. And you will find that if you have the courage and guts to do it, and you say to them, is there anything else that you'd like to add?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  The person listening, uh, the person who's been articulating with all this anger, suddenly starts feeling that they start discovering feelings they hadn't even known they felt before because for the first time, they felt are safe articulating these things. And they start discovering deeper and deeper parts of themselves. And they also start to soften. And they open up their heart to being able to see that they they're not facing an enemy that they have to fight. And that biologically, they have to kill in order to not be killed. Uh, but that biologically that they can, uh, that that this is a real potential, if not ally, somebody that they can feel at peace with and feel safe with. And that's

• 7:14Tom Bilyeu?

  So when when anger is present like that, you think the people in that level of like, this is kill or be killed?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  This is kill or be killed. Yes. So for example, I had a fellow write to me a few weeks ago. And he said he belonged to an eight chan and four chan and the eight chan, for those that don't know, are people that are usually alt-right and very uh, far, far right and uh, a number of the mass shooters like Benton Tarrant from Christchurch and um, other mass shooters have evolved out of a chan. And so here is, you know, some of the, and he had written a fifty-two page manifesto, he told me. Um, that he intended to leave behind after he did his very carefully planned mass shooting. And then he read the boy crisis and suddenly he said to me that he felt understood and seen for the first time in his life, that this was,

• 8:05Speaker 01

  you know, that he, in the boy crisis, I talked a lot about um, the dad deprived boys and he was dad deprived and his mother and his mother's stepmother, grandmother, um.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Ants were all women without men in their lives and they all hated men. And so he saw himself as hateful and not being, he had no male role model, no discipline, no motivation. And so he began to feel he had that somebody that agreed with him. He wanted to have support him and a four chan and a eight chan had a lot of people with those attitudes. And so the only way he felt he could get heard and get some attention was to, was to do this mass shooting. And so, and then he, so he wrote me and said that, you know, thank you for the boy crisis. It really has saved not only my life, but the lives of many other people. And so, and I said, well, where did you hear about me?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  And he said, on Jordan Peterson. So, you know, I wrote to Jordan, sent him a copy of that letter and Jordan and I and another, the president of the masculinity division of the American Psychological Association are all working with this young man. To give him a sense of purpose and a sense of being able to connect with, with people, a sense of discipline, a sense of structure. Now, I don't know how great it's going to turn out, but it's certainly, he is, he's moving in a very positive direction. And I want to keep him moving that way. And hopefully my ideal is to have him be able to

• 9:42Speaker 01

  step into the hearts and minds of others that were like what he was and be able to lead them to a more constructive, understood and developed and purposeful life.

• 9:55Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow, that's super intense. Going back to this idea of really making sure that you're listening well, that you're creating a space for the person to be heard. And it was actually slightly different than that when you first brought it up. And I think it's really important, which is just that this, the different sides of the argument be heard and understood. And, you know, the whole concept of steel manning, making sure that you really do understand what the person is saying, where they're coming from, all the nuance and getting to, like you said, the point where they say, yes, okay, now you completely have that.

• 10:32Tom Bilyeu?

  So I completely understand.

• 10:35Tom Bilyeu?

  In my own life, how functional that is to understand the other side. How do you deal with people who they're they have such a worldview. It's so entrenched that to do that is to have the very foundations of their world shaken, potentially begin to crumble. How do you avoid creating that process? In such a way that it it puts them into fight or flight. Because this is where I see like where people will argue for a point like from a religious standpoint, as if it were, you know, metaphysically true that they're just this this thing is. And to accept the other side of the argument would be to accept that, you know,

• 11:17Tom Bilyeu?

  the very thing that gives them a gravitational center is gone. How do you navigate that?

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Very good question. First of all, you don't require it of them. So, for example, my father, when I first started to do to always I got some awards for writing. And my father saw that I was tempted to sort of like make writing a living. And he explained to me that, you know, Warren, only about one in a hundred people could who write, get a publisher. And if you can't get a publisher, you'll never get a wife. You can't get a wife, you'll never you'll never, you know, have a family. And so this is really, you know, don't go into writing. And then I got my first couple of contracts and he began to bend a little bit.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  But he then said to me, no, Warren, you're ruining the lives of millions of people. And I said, how so? And I said, I really don't impact millions of people. You know, that was my joke to lighten up the situation. But the and he goes, well, you're teaching people psychology. Psychology teaches people to do what they want to do, not what they need to do. And a real a real man teaches, learns to do not what he wants to do, like write books and say what you really want, but to to do what you need to do. When you have two or three children or four children, if you, you know, want to be a musician, great, if you're the Beatles, but if you haven't gotten to that level,

• 12:48Speaker 01

  the chances are you're not going to make enough money to support yourself. Give your wife the option to be fully involved with the children if she needs to be. If the children have problems, you won't have the money to to take care of that. You won't have the money to buy a home in a decent neighborhood with a decent school. So man up, basically. And man up means, you know, sort of do what you need to do. Don't focus on that and don't teach other people to focus on it. Teach people to focus on what they need to do, not what they want to do. And so I had to just hear his perspective. And I and I would hear various versions of that for a while. When he got angry, I would interpret that as he loved me.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  And that's, you know, and this was his vulnerability feeling that I was charting a whole different course that he felt was not what a real man should do. And so I I but after it, it took me four or five years of just hearing my father's perspective to for my father to loosen. And it took one other thing, too. I I articulated his best intent, meaning that I I I shared with him that first I knew that he was critiquing me in a way so that I didn't have Achilles' heels in the world, that I was that I was not going to be defeated. That I've and that I overcame if he if if I did it my way,

• 14:12Speaker 01

  that I had considered all the obstacles that were likely to defeat me, number one. Number two, I said to him, Dad, you know, your generation was the generation that you focused on, you were born in nineteen ten. I know that by the time you were thirty five, you'd been through two world wars and a depression. And so and but your generation created the ability to survive that has led me and my generation to be able to do more than just focus on survival, but to focus on some combination of survival and fulfillment. You have given me that privilege. Your generation has given me that privilege. And so I really want to honor you and also know that

• 14:55Speaker 01

  that my taking advantage of of combining fulfillment with sustainability is something that I honor you for and your generation for. And that softened him enormously.

• 15:06Tom Bilyeu?

  But did it change his mind? Because here's one of the things that I found most interesting about The Boy Crisis. Luxury brands are not charging you more for better cashmere. You're paying for the storefront, the ad budget, the name on the tag, but Quince cuts all of that out. They work directly with ethical factories. They skip the middlemen and sell 100% Mongolian cashmere, starting at just 60 bucks. 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Now, I gave one of these as a gift last year. It was a big hit and gifting is really the test of a brand. You might tolerate a lot of stuff in your own closet that you would never give to somebody else. I've got their joggers and a couple of their tees as well. And I can tell you their whole line is high quality.

• 15:51Tom Bilyeu?

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• 17:16Tom Bilyeu?

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• 17:35Tom Bilyeu?

  Men are a role that is really, I don't know if you'd say baked into our genes or just so deeply implanted into the subconscious of the culture. But that like, hey, part of why men are here is they're disposable. That they're meant to defend us, to die for us, to do all the difficult things. And that our sort of compensation as a society for that is the hero. And that you're worshiped and everybody's going to think you're cool, but the reality is you're going to die. You're going to die in service of us. And what is really interesting to me, Warren, is I'm not kidding. Like two days ago, I gave my wife a speech. My eyes were watering. I needed to be understood.

• 18:20Tom Bilyeu?

  Because there's this, this big thing growing between my wife, not, not growing. It's a really important issue that we haven't solved yet that we have to solve, which is the following. It came about because Will Smith said that like he did all of the, all of the hard work, all of that. So that he could build this big, incredible, beautiful house for his family. And his wife said, no, you did that for yourself. And, and that to me was like a knife in my own heart. And my wife is like, isn't that crazy? Cause she totally identified with his wife. And I'm like, what? I'm like, that's so true. And she was like, no, it's not like you don't understand. I don't need that. That's not what this is about. And I'm like, stop. I'm like, you need to understand. And I had, this was before I read your book.

• 19:03Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm like, I need you to understand that I see myself as standing with a sword in my fucking hand. And I have to slay the things that are coming at you. And in that, there is so much power for me to be defending you, to fight for you, to build this for you, to do it for myself is. Like if, and this is embarrassing, but is true. If my wife is in the house and you know, the alarm goes off, or I think there might be an intruder. I don't have fear. I fucking run straight towards it. If I'm alone, I have fear. There is something about knowing that I'm there to protect her. I've rehearsed the idea of dying for her, hopefully killing everybody instead. But like, being in that situation over and over and over and over.

• 19:49Tom Bilyeu?

  And for her to be like, well, I don't care. It's, it's unnerving and, and like sort of devastating in a way where I, I said to her, I was like, hey, I need to understand your side. I need to figure out where you're coming from. But this is one of those things, don't just brush off as if it doesn't matter that, oh, I'm just being macho. I'm like, there's something way foundational here in terms of how I perceive myself and what it means to be a man and what my duties are, all of that. And then of course I read The Boy Crisis. I'm like, oh my God, like this is literally, I, I had never thought about it in an, that, that it is truly a thing. That like guys have this role in society from an evolutionary standpoint, like we, we imbibe upon it.

• 20:33Tom Bilyeu?

  So going back to your dad, knowing that this role is like a real thing. Did you change his mind? Is there changing one's mind on this? Or is this so ingrained in us that it just is?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  It did slowly change, or his mind did slowly change. And it began, but it's the emphasis on slowly. And the emphasis on for four or five years, I pretty much did nothing but heard his point of view. And when he felt that the articulation of his point of view had been absorbed by me. When I, when I let him know, here's what I heard you say, is that correct, Ed? And he go, no, well, mostly, but here's a problem with it. And then I kept working on it until he didn't feel I had distorted anything and he didn't. Feel I had missed anything and I gave him space to add things, but you know, this is four or five years. And during that four or five years, I did not know for sure that it

• 21:32Speaker 01

  would ever turn around. And in a way, I had given up the need for it to turn around. I only gave up the need for my father to feel, I, I focused on the need for my father to feel loved, my father to feel heard, my father to feel like he was doing right by being able to have me absorb what he wanted to impart to me. And so that was, you know, and slowly during that period of time, fortunately, you know, by the time he was in his nineties, he lived to ninety-nine. I always felt blessed that he lived that long because it, you know, it took that long to, to make the turnaround. And so, but all of this is really very much related to, um, to the understanding of disposability that you were getting at. Well,

• 22:16Speaker 01

  first of all, the understanding that, that the first job in my couples communication courses in a case like this would be to have you completely, first of all, it's, it's usually true that a woman is not going to hand, uh, hear a man until she first he, it feels heard. Our protector instinct allows us to hear her first more easily than it does for her to hear us first, if it's a different point of view. So

• 22:46Tom Bilyeu?

  That's interesting.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Which is interesting by itself. Um, but, but even with lesbian couples and so on, or gay, um, gay males, straight males, or parents and children, it doesn't make that much difference who starts being to be heard, that as long as both are really convinced that they will be heard. So the first step is, um, is would be in your case, let's say, you totally altering your biological mindset, which would be when you hear something that you disagree with, to begin to form ideas and thoughts that you can add, share, uh, either interrupt with, or if you don't interrupt, hold it in, uh, to yourself, and you begin

• 23:28Speaker 01

  to mentally, um, do what I call self-listening, uh, while, um, your wife is talking. So I have every couple in my workshops, um, I have, let's say, the male start out by, um, altering his biologically natural state to defend.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Or and to and to I do that with creating six mindsets that the person listening meditates into. So that you move from wanting to hear your wanting to argue with your partner's perspective. To knowing that if you create a safe environment for your partner's perspective. That your partner will feel heard, more safe, more loved, and therefore more loved for you. I also work with each couple to ask them that I ask a question. If you were to

• 24:26Speaker 01

  find that your partner was a hundred percent likely to die, but you knew that you could, you know, jump in and save her. And have, but you have a fifty percent chance of dying yourself, but a hundred percent chance of saving her if you do jump in, would you do it? Virtually every male in the room says yes. About ninety percent of the women in the room say yes, they would do that for their partner, fifty percent chance of dying. So my first thing that I ask is that, you know, if if you can die, be willing to die to give your partner life, can you listen to give your partner life? And it puts the listening into such perspective. I mean, here people are coming, some of them, about a quarter of the people in my workshops are, this is the

• 25:11Speaker 01

  they've heard about, you know, the couples chorus, they they've come oftentimes overseas to to go to it. And still, they're, you know, they're wanting to defeat their partner. And so this is like a, you know, a total turnaround for them. But when their partner feels heard, their their attitude toward them begins to soften and change quite considerably, and then they're ready to hear their their partner's perspective on on life. And it's more complex than that, but it's it's a structure that I've created to be able to have everyone be able to hear each other, including, you know, the the alt-right with the with the alt-left, if you will.

• 25:54Tom Bilyeu?

  Hmm. All right, I want to get back to some of the frames around the disposability of men, how that came to be.

• 26:05Tom Bilyeu?

  How did that come to be? I mean, hearing you say that, it was like so cold. It's a, it's inverting the sort of hero complex of like, instead of looking at the reward that men get for being disposable, you just look at the cold, hard fact of like, all right, we're gonna throw you at the problem.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:26Tom Bilyeu?

  So what, what does, what is the disposability of men and where does it come from?

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Uh, it comes evolutionarily. Um, and almost all animals are, the male is disposable and the female is protected by the male and the female selects the alpha male. So even let's say among buckelks. The, uh, the female, um, is, uh, she chooses the buck elk with the longest rack, the biggest rack. And but in order to get that big rack, uh, the buck elk has to, um, exhaust about thirty percent of its nutrients, minerals, and, um, and calcium. And so the, the, what creates him to be able to be selected by her for sexuality and for reproduction

• 27:14Speaker 01

  is exactly what is making him most vulnerable, the loss of thirty percent of his nutrients, minerals and calcium. And so the, uh, the buck elk has to get rid, rid of the rack immediately after procreation. Otherwise, he is likely to die, um, from a lack of nutrition before the winter sets in. So what the buck elk is doing is in order to make himself eligible for love or sex, um, he has to, um, he, he has to appear the strongest, but be the weakest. And so one of the things I discuss in The Boy Crisis and in other books is that, um, men's weakness is our facade of strength.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  His buck, his rack was his facade of strength, but it was also his weakness.

• 28:07Tom Bilyeu?

  Really fast, why wouldn't it have made more sense from an evolutionary standpoint for it to be real strength? That if a slightly smaller antler size actually means that you can fight better, then why wouldn't that get selected for? It seems impossible to believe that unless having a rack that big actually made you a better fighter, it's just a very short window in which you can fight.

• 28:31Tom Bilyeu?

  It doesn't seem like it should be selected for. Am I crazy?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  That's, that's a good argument, and I think, and I think that the basic experience is that the, the woman needs the protection the most from other males that are weaker that would like to procreate with her. And the ma- the male with the biggest rack can either inhibit or fight off any, any suitors that are coming on to her and also protect her during the pregnancy. But then he has to get rid of that immediately in order to be able to, to live himself, or he doesn't live himself and he dies for her. And translating, translating that into human terms, every generation you've heard, you know, has it, has its war or wars.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  And, and basically we, we tell men that you will be a hero. The, the telling men you'll be the hero if you fight in that war and are willing to die in that war does a number of things. One is the, it's, it can be looked at as a social bribe that you will be respected. Uncle Joe is, his picture is on the mantle. He fought in the Marines in World War II. He died. He's a hero. He's honored by everybody in his family. Boy, 12 years old, often criticized by mom and dad, disciplined, maybe feeling like he's not that great at school and other kids mock him.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  But if he joins the Marines and, and even if he dies, he'll be thought of as a hero like Uncle Joe. And so these social bribes to be disposable do two things to parents. On the one hand, the parent wants the boy to live. On the other hand, they want the boy to be that hero like Uncle Joe. And so the boy is getting mixed messages about his own disposability. But that his own, the, the, the risk of being disposable is, is what will make him a man. And so then, then he starts seeing with women, that women are falling in love with the, um, uh, with the, with the provider and the protectors. They're falling in love with the officer and the gentleman, not the private and the pacifist.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Um, and so they, they notice through thousands of different views, they, they see Lois Lane, um, not having any interest whatsoever in Clark Kent. But once she finds out that Clark Kent is really Superman, then she's all interested. Then she tries to say to Superman, oh, you should be able to cry. But she wasn't interested in Superman at all, who was Clark Kent, who was crying, who was sensitive, who was caring. And so this is deeply built into our evolutionary genetics. And, and if it wasn't, uh, we'd all be under Nazi rule. And, um, you know, and, and we wouldn't have conquered the Native Americans. So all, you know, uh, and, and other, um, people that were living on the land that they owned.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Um, as a result of our, the programming of all our males to be willing to be able to, to die for what, um, gave additional resources to our women, to our children and to other males. And so, and, and the ones that did that the best were what we call the heroes, the ones we celebrated. And so every male, when your wife says, you know, you are doing that for yourself. She's not right and she's not wrong, meaning that she's, that you, that there was a part of you and I that wanted to be the hero. And there was a part of you and I that were willing to be disposable in order to protect her. And those all blend together. And so the, the, in the boy crisis, what I found is that the boys who did not,

• 32:08Speaker 01

  the, the boys who were part of the boy crisis, um, that the, basically that the boy crisis resides where dads do not reside.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  And when I first submitted the proposal for the boy crisis to my publisher, I had 10 sections of different causes of the boy crisis, all about equal. But the more I started to study it, the more I realized that yes, the boy that was raised by a single mom and went into a school that had very few male teachers, that boy was in trouble,

• 32:47Speaker 01

  had a very high percentage chance of being vulnerable to getting seduced by gangs or by drug dealers to be part of their gang and to have a different family, so to speak. And so, but the boy who was raised by both a dad and a mom, or an involved dad and an involved mom, that that boy, even if he went into a school with very few male teachers, did not usually get into trouble. And so that the power of having an involved dad was more important for the average boy than the power of a male teacher alone. So male teachers are important, but they are not sufficient.

• 33:29Tom Bilyeu?

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• 34:12Tom Bilyeu?

  My link gets you an exclusive 30 days free instead of the usual 14-day trial. There's no credit card payment needed. Just head to pipedrive.com/impact to get started. Again, that's pipedrive.com/impact and you can be up and running in minutes. What what is it about? So one of the things I found interesting in in the boy crisis is this very clear picture that there is a difference between men and women, sort of in in the innate way that they interact. The innate way that they raise a child, the different tools that they bring. And one thing I'm fascinated by, just in general, is in society, it seems like people think that there is one way to do something right.

• 34:58Tom Bilyeu?

  And that seems to be leading to this, just like absolute madness, whereas I think a healthier view is to understand that nature has given us this dichotomy, whether it's right and left, whether it's male, female. Because the friction between the two produces these incredible results. But that you actually need the mother and father sort of pulling in these, you know, slightly different directions. Left and right, you need people pulling between progressivism and conservatism. And that either one going off in their own directions becomes problematic, but the two personality types

• 35:33Tom Bilyeu?

  working in concert is really what ends up giving you the good result. So in the book, you talk about, you know, look, dads just sort of come at this in a certain way. Women tend to come at it in a in a different way. And so even though a mother could just be absolutely working her magic and doing everything that she can do. And even if there were two mothers working that it still doesn't solve, you don't still get that friction. So one, if you think that that's a fair breakdown of what you cover in the book, I'd love to understand what are the I don't want to say immutable roles, because you do a good job in the book of talking about, look, there are other ways to explore

• 36:15Tom Bilyeu?

  this, and we'll get to that. But the sort of prototypical middle of the road guy father approaches it this way. The stereotypical middle of the road mother approaches it this way. What are those two things? And what's the value that they bring? And why is it that we discard one to our own peril?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. Very, very important question. So I'll do a conclusion first and then go back into it slowly. The, the children that do the best are the ones that have an involved biological mom and dad. I'll talk later about why biological and, but the, and that that mother and father discuss with each other. Their, the best intent of their different parenting styles, dad's style parenting and mom's style parenting. So they end up with what I would call checks and balance parenting. And the, where the mother, but the most important part of checks and balance parenting

• 37:15Speaker 01

  is both people have to listen with respect to the best intent of the other person's parenting. So for example, typically when, let's say you have three children. And the three children and the dad is more likely to go, okay, kids, three of you just get on the couch and jump on my back. And you know, the three of you, here's the game, the three of you pin me down first, or I pin the three of you together down first. All right, daddy, we'll do it, we'll do it. You know, and mom is looking on going, oh my God, I feel like I have just one more child to monitor here. And, but she's saying, I don't want to be controlling. The kids seem like they're having a lot of fun. But I just feel fear that sooner or later, somebody's gonna get, get, get, end up getting hurt.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Well, the mom is only about 99% likely to be right. So the, you know, the roughhousing goes on and the, and sooner or later, somebody starts crying and mom goes, oh no, I feel guilty now. I should have got, I should have interfered. I should have paid attention to my instincts. Now, you know, Joanie has gotten hurt and dad goes, okay, you know, Jim, you can't take your, Jimmy, you can't take your elbow and you stick it in your sister's eyes. So that's not, if you do that again, I'll have to stop the roughhousing. Okay, dad, okay, dad, I won't do anything like that again. So five minutes later, the roughhousing continues and Jimmy doesn't stick the elbow in his sister's eyes, but he is really aggressive to his other brother.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  And the dad says, you know, you, you were too aggressive. We're stopping the roughhousing for tonight. And mom is going, oh, finally dad gets the point. He's stopping the roughhousing. But he said, she says, he just said tonight? Well, he's saying tomorrow night, he's going to continue the roughhousing. He hasn't learned his lesson, that the children get hurt every time they do that. And dad says to, you know, the one boy, he said, you know very well that that was too aggressive, that you were pushing your sister out. I didn't stick my elbow in my sister's eye like you told me not to. You still knew well enough that that was too aggressive. You do that again, no more roughhousing. And so that tomorrow night comes.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And because, but because the roughhousing has stopped that night, when the, when the, when the initial warning was not heeded to the dad's degree of satisfaction. Now the children have in mind a different, a different phenomenon. When mom tells me to stop roughhousing, to being so rough, and I don't pay attention to mom, mom just repeats what she says, maybe a little bit more forcefully. Whereas dad took away what we really wanted, the roughhousing. And so the next night, when the dad says, you know what to not do and what to do now.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  And the children absorb that more fully because they don't want to lose what they really want, which is the roughhousing. Whereas with mom, they didn't think they would lose what they really wanted. So we can ignore what mom says. It's only going to be repeated. For dad, we lose what we want, the roughhousing. So what no one gets from that is that what the children, and so, and moms don't get it because dads don't tell moms. Dads don't get it because this is not in any parenting magazine or parenting book. And so when I found out these things, I felt this was really what I needed to communicate in the boy crisis. And so what the father didn't understand, articulate to mom,

• 40:53Speaker 01

  was that when he requires the child to not be aggressive, he's teaching the child the difference between being aggressive versus assertive.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  He's also teaching the child postpone gratification and postpone gratification is the most important single predictor of success or failure. And the postponed gratification in that example is that the child wants to win at the roughhousing and pushed his sister or brother aside to win, but knows now that it's going to lose what it really wants, which is the continuation of the roughhousing. So it has to postpone the gratification of pushing sister or brother aside to get the gratification of more roughhousing. Now that postponed gratification, when it's taken to, let's say, school and the child who learns postponed gratification can maybe be in the middle of doing homework and an

• 41:49Speaker 01

  invitation to play a video game that's brand new and just up. And the, and instead of saying, yes, I'll play, says, can respond only when I finish my homework. The kid that is recognizes having a special gift, like maybe is tall and can play basketball or is a good actor or a good musician or so on, or a great singer and is beginning to, but wants to be, let's say, an Olympic gymnast. And the father makes it clear that yes, you can be an Olympic gymnast and we will support you to do that. And I'll take you to your gymnastic events, I'll pay for tutoring, but if you don't follow through and do your homework, I'm no longer going to continue my support for you to do that. And mom may go, oh, you're being really mean. She's trying as hard as she can.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Dad goes, no, I don't think she is trying as hard as she can. And if we're going to do all the support on her end, she has to follow through and she has to know that if she's not willing to sacrifice this party and that, that activity for fun or go to, go to this place or that, she'll never have the discipline to become that Olympic gymnast. And so that tends, so the boundary enforcement tends to be much more something that dads are comfortable with. Moms are more likely to tune into the fact that the child's had a tough day, that maybe if there's a divorce, that the child is a victim of the divorce and therefore I'm not going to get into a, a big argument over, you know, making something harder on the child when she, she or he has been, had a tough day.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  And whereas dad says, I want the long term, I want my child to be. Seeing herself as able to master what she or her dream or his dream is, that will give the child the more long-term gratification.

• 43:35Tom Bilyeu?

  How much pushback do you get when you describe it in these ways that, you know, one, I have a feeling that even if you're right about the result of roughhousing, that most dads are literally just roughhousing, like they're not, they're not necessarily thinking about it in some sort of grand way to bring their kids up. It's just fun and you roughhouse. And then, you know, for women to be like really attuned to the emotional state, therefore their boundaries are much softer.

• 44:05Tom Bilyeu?

  Do people push back on that? Or is that like, yeah, no, even people that disagree with you are like, okay, that part. Yeah, I get.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  People have had children. The normal response is, oh, my God, that's us. You know, sort of like, um, and, and, um, and I a hundred percent agree with the perspective that dads don't articulate those things, which is why I say that moms can't hear what dads don't say. And I also don't blame dads because dads can't say what they don't read about. So the dads can't, don't, don't necessarily see all those connections. Um, but they just intuitively tend to do that. And so the, the other differences and moms tend to intuitively do that. And so, um, so for example, the mom and dad, uh, if the dad says,

• 44:54Speaker 01

  it's, you know, you can, um, the child says, can I climb the tree in the backyard? And mom will tend to say, well, maybe sweetie in a few, a few years, but you're too young to do that right now. Dads will say, well, okay, but be careful. Um, and mom will see it, say, what are you saying to the child that she or he can climb the tree? They could fall. There's a concrete underneath that. They could get a concussion or get a spinal cord injury or they could die. You're just putting our child's life at risk. And so mom and dad have what I call the, the checks and balance parenting. And if they do that, do that, mom says, okay, uh, they can climb the tree, but only up to this level. Do you agree with that? And not on these types of branches.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  And dad, you've got to be under the tree to be able to capture, uh, catch the child if she or he falls. And by the way, give me your cell phone. So you focus on the children, not on the cell phone. And so dad then agrees, if dad agrees to that, the child has gotten this that dad never says, but here's what the child's gotten. The child's gotten an increasing IQ. Because what we don't read about is that that child taking the risks and assessing what risk is safe, what is not, fires synapses in the brain that increases the brain's capacity and IQ. But these things are not common knowledge.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  And so this, and so what I say to dads is you've really got to know what you're doing intuitively and what the data is behind these things, because this hasn't been studied. We think of mom as having a natural mothering instinct. And that is true. But what no one talks about is that when a father is involved with a child, from the moment there is conception of touching the child, the mother's tummy, of being at the hospital with the child, of perceiving himself as having an active involvement in the child's life. That dad's synapses in that dad's brain form that are dormant until that child is born.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  And those synapses begin firing and form a second brain level that is very similar to the motherhood instinct, but with different.

• 47:06Tom Bilyeu?

  You can actually see it on a brain scan?

• 47:07Speaker 01

  You can actually see it on the brain scan. And this, these are things we didn't know about until just five, six years ago.

• 47:14Tom Bilyeu?

  And what are the, the, the second brain that's forming? Uh, what, what is its design? Connection, bonding, uh, something else?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yes, uh, all the things that are sort of natural to a dad, but the, the dad perceives as his role of protecting, even though he doesn't know that it's necessarily leading to that. The primary thing that's happening is protect, care for, be involved. But some dads, when the child is born, say, okay, I've got to give up being an elementary school teacher. I've got to start to move us into and make more money. I've got to be the principal of the school. I've got to be a superintendent of schools. I've got to give up teaching and education altogether, make more money selling product X.

• 48:00Tom Bilyeu?

  Is that just social? Or what creates that push?

• 48:03Speaker 01

  It's both social and and and biological. I mean, the instinct to protect is in every animal from, you know, tiny little ants right up to human beings for the male to protect.

• 48:18Tom Bilyeu?

  So as that second brain is forming, it's it's amping up that already natural impulse to protect. You start looking, okay, if I'm the financials provider, then I need to ratchet this up, which then, of course, takes them away. And so that you get back to that disposable idea of for me to be a good father, I have to be away from the family. And for the mother to be a good mother, she has to be deeper in the family. How does that begin to feed into the boy crisis?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  In a very important way. So the father that perceives that the most important thing is income. And I have to quit all my jobs that do not produce much money, musician, artist, writer, as you know, sort of elementary school teacher, and take jobs that require not only more money, but if I'm the local salesperson of product X, and that that I could make twice as much money being the national salesperson for product X, but I'm going to be away from the family more frequently. And so that becomes what I call the father's catch 22. The dad learns to love his family by being away from the love of his family.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  And so what I discuss in the boy crisis is, that's okay, until your family, depending on where you live in the United States, is earning somewhere between $60,000 and $80,000 a year. Once you're earning about that amount of money, the amount of dad's time is more important than dad's dime, if you will. And so the, and so that the, the, and that brain, the nurturing instinct, the nurturing part of the brain fires more when dad perceives that his, that his time is valued more than his dime. If his, if he perceives that he's got to go out and, you know, provide a half million dollars or whatever a year,

• 50:12Speaker 01

  then he starts moving into more of a producer. And even though he's doing all of that to love his children, he's also learning skill sets that are the opposite of love. So for example, a really top CEO, when listening to, say, a salesperson say, this new engine will be best for your Boeing aircraft. And the, the, the top CEO has got to, while that salesperson of selling engine X is talking, he, he or she has got to be thinking, okay, is this salesperson the most credible? Do, if I, if I do believe that, do I have the infrastructure in China? And these are the places to implement this anyway.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  What, what, what would I have to do as an infant? You know, a dozen questions that he is thinking in his or her mind's eye when the salesperson is talking. So that's very functional for being a good CEO. But that CEO comes home and while his wife or children are talking, if he is not listening fully to them, but rather is tapped into, okay, what is the error in which she, what, what they're talking about? My wife is having a problem. How do I solve the problem? One of the biggest mistakes that CEO types make is, is, is using their skill sets as a CEO to solve their wife's problem, which only makes their wife on a subtle level feel like dumber, like if.

• 51:43Tom Bilyeu?

  We got, we have to talk about this one. So this is, I'm sure, the biggest problem in a lot of couples' marriages. Certainly, this was, has been an issue in mine. And. Forever, my wife and I just decided, okay, tell me straight up, do you just want me to listen? Or do you want me to solve the problem? So that I can just come into this? Because my natural instinct is definitely going to be to solve the problem. And then I heard a piece of information. I would love to know if you know, if you can verify this, that one thing that estrogen does is make emotions feel okay. So that feeling sad, hurt, disappointed, whatever, is far more acceptable for my wife than it is for me. So I see my wife in distress.

• 52:27Tom Bilyeu?

  It then puts me in distress and I'm not prepared to stay there. So I'm like, I can solve this problem. Let's go. It makes her not feel heard or listened to. But because it is so uncomfortable for me to see her in that state, to then feel that myself. I'm like, what are we doing? Like, why would we not solve this problem? This seems crazy. So is that true about estrogen? Is it? Because if it is true, that that feeling, that the feeling is intense, but it's like pain and suffering. She has the pain, but she's not suffering from the pain. Whereas I'm experiencing the pain and I'm suffering from it. Have you heard that about estrogen? That it makes those feelings feel okay?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  I have. And here's what I think every woman and every man can understand. Is that when a woman is, or a man, but particularly a woman, first of all, I'm going to talk about this to the women from the men's perspective. So you can understand the men's intent. Then I'm going to reverse it. Okay. So from the, from the man's perspective, he would die to, to save you. He, when you, when anything is wrong for you.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  From his perspective, it is cruel to let my wife bleed and not to put on the best Band-Aid possible. She is everything to me. She is what, and so the second I see you bleed, I naturally want to put that Band-Aid on and I'm going to put the aloe vera on and then the Band-Aid, then hold you and do everything that you need to be protected from pain. That's his best intent. Guys, when your wife or woman friend is expressing her feelings, just let her, the best thing you can do, you can solve the problem, you can protect her. The way to solve the problem and the way to

• 54:28Speaker 01

  protect her is by hearing her through and hearing her out. That is the solution. So you have to reformulate your, the, the, the method you use to protect. Why, why is that what she needs? Well, I can give you an intellectual estrogen-based science explanation. Yes, please. But first, just try to hear that it is just, it is what she needs. And the, and that, that CEOs that I've worked with that have, that have really seen that, that have changed in their mind what

• 55:11Speaker 01

  the definition of solving the problem is, that there is a way of solving the problem and the way is just to hear her out and to let her completely, my, my wife is an extraordinary woman and she runs in her own company and of very many nights, she spends 45 minutes to an hour talking straight about the problems she's had that day with the company and how it's made her feel and how it's hurt she feels about it. Just today, there was, this morning at breakfast, there was that, that, that came up. And so my job is to just hear her out. And then when I do it

• 55:54Speaker 01

  the best, and I don't always do it this way, when I do it the best, to sort of, instead of... Formulating the, the, um, my solutions in my mind's eye. Um, just when she's finished, oftentimes she's just relaxed and she's different. But other times she says, you know, do you have any thoughts? When I'm at my best, almost always I jump in with my thoughts. Um, that, that I have been formulating in my mind, uh, but while trying to listen to her. But when I do it my best, I say, I do have some thoughts, but do you have any more thoughts? And I, and almost invariably she comes up, she begins now to work on solutions. And she's prouder of herself when she can begin to both feel heard,

• 56:38Speaker 01

  relieved and relieved and relaxed. And now she has the bandwidth to come up with her own solutions. And so now who is her hero? She is her own hero. How have I become her hero? I've become her hero by helping her become her own hero.

• 56:56Tom Bilyeu?

  What's the reverse? When, when you're upset and talking, do you just want her to solve the problem? Do you also want her to hold space for you? What's that, that flip side?

• 57:07Speaker 01

  I want her to hold space for me. But that creates a conflict inside of me that every woman needs to understand. The fear inside of me is that if I start crying and complaining, that I'll be seen as Clark Kent and not Superman, and she fell in love with Superman. And so, um, and so I, I, so part of what the couples communication work that I do about is, is to be able for me to be able to say, here's what I fear when I share my real fears that are underlying, that I fear that you will feel like I don't, I'm not the competent, um, solve it all person that, you know, that you saw on TV, that you saw,

• 57:49Speaker 01

  um, you know, that you saw being so masterful, that you see leading couples workshops and everybody, you know, saying, wow, what a phenomenon. Um, that you'll see the real me, which has lots of fears and feelings of, you know, and, and things, insecurities and so on. And that you will unfall in love with me, that you'll fall out of love with me. And as she's seen that, then she, as, as she's been able to hear that fully from me, she's able to say to me, she's able to see the greater amount of courage that is behind my willingness to be vulnerable. And the power that she has to be able to facilitate me in a way

• 58:32Speaker 01

  that she says inside of herself, I am really helping him by having, understanding that men do feel these vulnerabilities. They're just afraid to articulate them and I'm helping him become a healthier man. And this is true in every man. It's just that my husband has the guts to be able to say it. And he has the guts to say it because he knows that he won't lose my love. That that's what I explained to her in when, when it's my turn to talk and be heard in what I call caring and sharing exercises that I do with the couples communication courses.

• 59:10Tom Bilyeu?

  But now here's the real question, do women fall in love with the Superman? Like you, you go into the book, there's, yeah, there's some like uncomfortable truths to be faced here.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, the answer, three answers to that, yes, yes, and yes. And that's, I can real estate, it's location, location, location. And that's the challenge. And so men, women do fall in love with the Superman. So women have, you know, men have to have the guts. Well, first of all, you have to know how to explain, how, how to create this structure of each person being able to listen to each other and know that when you do hear the person's real underlying feelings that, and especially if they involve criticisms of you, you have to be able to know how to handle that criticism

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  without falling in, without falling into what is biologically natural, which is to be defensive. What I mean by that is historically speaking and biologically speaking, if you heard a criticism of you, you felt that it was an enemy, enemy of your kinship network, an enemy of your, you know, neighborhood. And you, so you biologically built up your defenses to be able to defend against the possible enemy. Or conversely, you, you tried to figure out how to kill your enemy before your enemy killed you. So it's biologically functional for survival, for everyone to become defensive. But it's biologically dysfunctional for love.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  To be defensive to your partner's perspectives and criticisms and concerns. And so what I do in the couples communication workshops is I have people alter their biologically natural propensity to be defensive because when you're completely not defensive and you're open to whatever your partner says or feels, even if it's completely filled with criticism for you, and even if it's shouted at you, and even if there's exaggerated truths, and even if it's a lie, that that that being able to hear your partner's perspective and then also understand that the exaggerations and the lies are their way are their way of calling

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  your attention away from your everyday life into paying more attention to what they need it to be by exaggerating it or raising their voice. But the second they start realizing that you will provide complete safety for their perspective, there's no reason to shout, there's no reason to exaggerate, there's no reason to lie.

• 1:01:43Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, okay, so going back to this idea, they're they're falling in love with Superman.

• 1:01:52Tom Bilyeu?

  Putting it back into the context of the boy crisis. So we have something really gnarly going on. We have a removal of the father. It has all these knock on effects in terms of delayed gratification, in terms of boundary setting, discipline.

• 1:02:08Tom Bilyeu?

  But there's also something interesting you talk about in the book where, you know, we put a lot of time and attention, rightly so, on making sure that women have more options. But as we've created these more options for women, we have failed to do the same thing for boys. And in fact, largely just dismiss that boys are potentially having a problem. And to contextualize in what you've just been saying, we already have these natural proclivities that are sort of pulling us in these opposite directions. And so now, like, taking a, you know, a somebody, a mature male, but young, where they're on the dating scene, they're trying to find a spouse. Who has a potential spouse, who has more and more options, they have less and less. How does this begin to play out in reality? How do dating apps enter into this?

• 1:02:53Tom Bilyeu?

  You know, it feels like we're getting, I I've never had to deal with dating apps, but you know, you hear these terrifying statistics about a very small handful of guys just getting laid nonstop. And then a huge swath of guys, they're not even trying because it just seems like a game they can't win. And so, yeah, help me contextualize as we have rightly given more options to women. What have we failed to do to men? And how's that playing out in in mate finding?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yes. First of all, your analysis is exactly correct, in my opinion, and it's exacerbated by, I was being interviewed for a documentary a few months ago. And I was talking about boys and what they learn in school. And at the time, it was, we were being interviewed in sort of a, a little island in the middle of a, of a creek. And a guy was walking, looked like a teenage guy, was walking by. And I was, I was just talking about what teenage guys think. And I'm thinking, I'm not a teenage guy. Pull this guy in, random guy off the thing. I told them what we were doing. I said, are you willing to be interviewed with the recognition that, you know, you could,

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  you're, you can run it by your parents, we won't do anything with it until, you know? And he said, yeah, yeah, no problem. And I, and so we interview him. And I said, you know, in school, what do you learn about girls? And what do you learn about guys? And he says, well, we learn that the future is female. And that guys are usually people who are sort of, you know, do a lot of date raping and sexual harassment. And that we really, you know, better be very, very cautious. And so I said, well, you know, do you, do you hear other good things about guys or bad things about guys? Oh, yeah, we learned that, you know, that men are the oppressors and women are the oppressed. And that we've been, you know, we learned about the patriarchy and how the patriarchy is part of that oppression.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  And so he goes on and all the list of things that I talked about in the boy crisis, he sort of say, are going on in school today, but he's hearing them. This guy turns out to be in the 10th grade. And so he's hearing them, you know, in high school, not in college. Uh, this is, this is ubiquitous in almost every college, um, this perspective. Uh, but he's hearing this in high school and he said he's already been hearing it for a few years. Uh, he turns out to be in a private, all male school. His friends, his friends are mostly in public schools and they hear the same thing. But even in an all male school, he's learning that men are the oppressors, the sexual harassers, uh, that the future is female. So I said, well, if the future is female, how does that make you feel about your future?

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Kind of depressed, he said. Um, and so this is the, um, and then, uh, when he thinks about having sex, he sort of sees that some of the guys that have sex are very assertive guys. Um, but he's afraid that if he's assertive, he could be considered a sexual harasser or a worst case scenario, a date rapist. In California, that where I live, that happens to be the law. But in, and in 26 states, it's becoming the law and the other 26, you know, 24 states is not. But at any rate, the, um, th- this boy is experiencing all those negative attitudes about himself. But he's not only afraid of moving too quickly, he's also afraid of moving sexually too slowly.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Cause if he moves too slowly, he knows he'll be called a wimp. If he moves, if he moves too quickly, he's a sexual harasser. And I said, did you ever think about, um, the fact that, that it would be wonderful if girls were being trained or socialized to be the ones to share the risks of sexual rejection? So it isn't just all on the guys to do the, the predominant risks. And he said, well, some girls do that. Um, and he's, but he's, then as we talked about it, he said, well, it's true that those girls only do that with the guys that are out of reach. They don't do that in general, uh, with, with the average, with the average guys. Um, and so, um, we, and but if we really were to increase our respect for women,

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  we would not just have women. Define victimhood in whatever way is in is they don't feel comfortable with that is doing too much aggression or not enough assertiveness. But we would be asking women to share the responsibility for risking rejection that is now predominantly on male shoulders. Women can do it by, women have the permission to do it, but they do it by option, not by expectation. And so guys are saying, all right, where can I have access to a variety of attractive women without fear of rejection at a price I can afford?

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Oh, pornography, I can have access to a variety of attractive women without fear of rejection at a price I can afford. The problem with pornography is that one tends to get addicted to it. And the, and when you first see a woman, your 14 year old boy, take off all her clothes, that's a real turn on. But then if you see it 30 or 40 times, you need something a bit more exciting and then a bit more exciting and then a bit more exciting. And before you know it, some, you know, at some point, a woman seems to be open to coming over to your house or wherever and beginning to make the possibility of making love. But if you're addicted to these,

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  you know,

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  doing things that the woman is going to be uncomfortable with, like say for euphemism, then the woman feels treated like a, you know, pornography object. And the reason she feels that way is she is because she is being treated as an object in pornography, because that's the only thing that you've learned to turn yourself on with. And so these are the dilemmas that are built in to the, the system today. And what, so the big question that you were asking from my perspective is, why, Warren? You know, why have we opened up all these doors for women and opened up almost none of these doors for men? Because part of the, the mistake that I and other feminists made right at the beginning, when I was on the board of directors of the National Organization for Women in New York

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  City and speaking all around the world on women's issues, is we made the assumption that we lived in a patriarchal world that, in which men made the rules to benefit men at the expense of women. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we lived in was a world that was dominated not by patriarchy, but by a need to survive. And in order to survive, men were restricted to playing roles that required them to be willing to be disposable. Women were restricted to playing roles that required them to risk disposability in childbirth. So we, we asked both sexes to play roles that required obligations and responsibilities

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  rather than freedom and rights and opportunities like my, like we talked about at the beginning with my father. And so that has to be understood by the culture. But we have this natural instinct to protect women and therefore create freedoms for them and to not want men to complain without looking at them with disgust or with at least pity. And sort of, and so that's the next evolutionary shift we have to make is boys having father involvement to be able to get disciplined, to be able to be productive. And then also having the, the guts to speak up and say what they need and they want and

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  risk being rejected by women. When I dated between marriages, I, I put all this on the table, hopefully not in this lane, on my first dates, and I could see that some of my potential sexual evenings were disappearing. But I ended up finding a woman who could really hear me and, but was also a powerful woman. And, and so you end up getting what you really want by not being a victim of your need to have sex that evening.

• 1:11:07Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm so curious now. So what exactly were you putting on the table? What were you saying?

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  But I was saying things like just what I'm saying here, but much more abbreviated versions of it. So I listened as much as I talked and, you know, hearing different, you know, hearing a different perspective, but I didn't want to, and, you know, and saying things like, you know, I feel that. Part of being a man who believes in women being strong and also men being strong is that we will, you know, that I will not be paying for the dates. And you won't be paying for the dates. We'll either be sharing that or I'll pay for this tonight. And if you care enough about us, you either pay for me the next time or make dinner for me. Either way, and so.

• 1:11:53Tom Bilyeu?

  And how did that land? Because in the book you give stats that it's still pretty like, most guys think they are supposed to pay and most women also think guys are supposed to pay.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And that is true. Eighty-two percent, I think, of guys feel women should pay. And seventy, seventy-some odd percent of women feel that men should pay. And it usually went over well because, you know, my life is being able to explain this and to explain to her how this is to her advantage in the long run. And when and what?

• 1:12:23Tom Bilyeu?

  It's to her advantage because she is maintaining autonomy?

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Or? Yes, she's maintaining autonomy, that it shows I have respect for her, that she doesn't have to, I'm, that I'm not buying her, her time, that I have respect for myself, that when I pay for a date and all the dates and she doesn't, but it's basically saying I'm compensating for my inequality. My insecurity is, is operating here. I feel I need to pay for you in order to be worthy of your love. That's really coming from an insecure place. And the, you know, and so when she sees that, she goes, oh, wow. But, you know, I have, my life is, you know, being, being able to explain that.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  And so, you know, one of the things I ask men to do is, you know, if you want to see whether a woman is a keeper or not, give them a copy of The Boy Crisis or The Myth of Male Power. And if they read it and whether they agree with you or disagree with you, if they have an open mind to read it and then have a good, non-defended conversation with you, then this woman is a keeper. But if they can't, you know, if they make any excuses as not reading to begin with, or they read a page or they start arguing instead of really deeping into it, then, then just save the time, save the money.

• 1:13:46Tom Bilyeu?

  Now, The Myth of Male Power, I have not read yet. I can only imagine that's a very controversial title these days. So in what way, like, given?

• 1:13:57Tom Bilyeu?

  The number of CEOs that are men, given the number of politicians in high positions that are men, like where's the myth?

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  The myth isn't exactly what you told your wife at the very beginning, that you're spending your life doing all of this, in part because you wanted to be called the hero, but also in part because you would be willing to die for women and you would be willing to make all this money. You know, you'd be willing to give up being the elementary school teacher, musician, artist that you fantasized being when the children were born, because you felt you wanted to give your wife the options, but you increased the mandate on yourself. And so now, if you become the superintendent of schools, let's say, in your area,

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  and feminists look at you and say, aha, more superintendents are men, even though more teachers are women. This shows that men are part of the patriarchy, have the power, and still are in control. And you're able to say, no, actually, I didn't want to do that at all until the children were born. It was my desire to keep teaching elementary school teacher, teaching, or be the musician or the artist, but it wasn't creating enough dependable, secure income. So I gave up what I loved to do, to do what I needed to do to protect and to love you and the family better. And so that perspective is an example of the myth of male power. However, I'm updating the myth of male power now because it came out 30 years ago.

• 1:15:33Tom Bilyeu?

  Whoa.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  And calling it the paradox of male power, because I want to honor the women's experience of being, for example, with a governor or with a CEO, and being come on to indirectly by the CEO, and feeling the compromises inside of herself. From her perspective, he does have power. From his perspective, he has power and he doesn't have power, because of the expectation on him to do that in order to be loved. And so I'm introducing more the paradox of male power, which I think it will be a little bit easier for women to hear and understand.

• 1:16:17Tom Bilyeu?

  That's really intriguing. Yeah, the, the idea of, I think power dynamics are real. I think they're fascinating. Um, was it Mark Twain that said, everything's about sex, except sex, that's about power. I always found that like, whoa, that's one of those like it's something incredibly racy hiding in plain sight and you tie that to the fact that women do fall in love with the Superman. And here is something in my own love life. So when I started, um, trying to attract the attention of women, I was really terrible. I would actually show up on the first date with a poem that I wrote for them, flowers, everything. And, and I just could never get

• 1:17:00Tom Bilyeu?

  anywhere. And even women would just make fun of me. They're just like, this is so ridiculous, Tom. This isn't how it works. But I could never figure out how it actually worked. And I, so I finally meet this guy and he's just exceptionally good with women. Now, it does not hurt that he is a very attractive man, but I remember just asking him, George, what, what is the secret? And he said, oh, you just have to be an asshole. And I was like, I can't, that's such a cliche. I'm like, there's no way that that's really the answer. But one, I'd heard it so many times before. And then two, I see how good this guy is with women. So I'm like, what does he mean? There's no way that it's actually being an asshole. And I realized that it was confidence.

• 1:17:44Tom Bilyeu?

  You had to seem like you didn't care. And so that you in that way became worthy of pursuit. So even if you are pursuing them, they have to feel like it's not a sure thing, like you're not the easy catch. Now, what psychology of like sexual mating preference and sexual market value goes on in there? Like, that's a whole nother thing. But it literally, I remember one day deciding I was going to flip a switch and I was going to be me and I was going to be a filtering mechanism. If you liked me, great. And if you didn't, tough shit. And that, on, on that day, Warren, everything changed. And I just stopped trying to please them, stopped trying to come

• 1:18:26Tom Bilyeu?

  across cool, nothing. I was just like, yep, here I am. This is me. And on a dime, everything with women changed for me. It was unreal. I was like, I cannot believe that it really was that simple. And so the woman who I ended up marrying, on our first date, I was like, Just talking the way that I would normally talk. So from one of the things I told her was, dude, it drives me crazy when people in a relationship say, oh, I only have eyes for you. I'm like, look, if you and I ended up in a relationship, let me tell you right now, I will forever find other women attractive and I won't believe you if you tell me that you only have eyes for me. I'm like, Brad Pitt is way better looking than me. So for you to say, oh, no, no, I don't, I don't find him attractive, but you, you, I find you attractive. I'd be like, get out of here.

• 1:19:11Tom Bilyeu?

  And it makes me feel insecure versus if you say, oh, no, no, he's super hot, amazing body. And by the way, if you're willing to go do the work to get that body, I won't complain. Uh, but I'm with you. I choose to be with you and you will never have to worry about me straying because of commitment, love, connection, shared life, all that stuff. And I remember when I was saying these things to her, she was like, what is happening? Like this guy is so weird. Nobody has ever talked to me like this ever before in my life. And of course she ends up becoming my wife. And when I tell people though, how my wife and I met, it gets to your paradox of power. So I was teaching at a school for adults and she was my student.

• 1:19:57Tom Bilyeu?

  And the first thing that I ever said to her in a flirtatious manner was, sit your ass down. Where do you think you're going? And it's like, everything that like now people be like, what is going on? But because we've been together for 21 years, it's like the proof is, you know, in the pudding, I wasn't just being a sleaze ball. I just realized that

• 1:20:20Tom Bilyeu?

  confidence, nonchalance, playfulness, no neediness, it just works. And so of course I delivered that line in a fun and playful way to somebody that was already attracted to me. So of course, it could have gone horribly wrong. I was deft enough to know that it would work well on that exact one person, but

• 1:20:44Tom Bilyeu?

  The, that whole dynamic, I feel like now we're starting to pretend that there are just certain things about sexual dynamics, men and women, that aren't true, that just are obviously true. And what one has to do to become quote unquote attractive, like there's actually an answer to that. And figuring that out seems critically important.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So on the, on the, the, so there's many, many parts of what you said that are so important. First of all, the only thing I disagree with is your friend who said you have to be an asshole. You were not, you were not being an asshole, you, but you were not, um, but when you brought the flowers and wrote the poem, you were, what the woman saw was neediness, um, and, and women are not turned on by neediness. There.

• 1:21:37Tom Bilyeu?

  I've run the experiment, that is absolutely true.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  Experiment, absolutely. And is, there's also a very hard and challenging myth that we feminists sort of spread that I now completely disagree with, with, you know, women saying, what is there about no that you don't understand? Well, here is what there is about no that I don't understand, is no forever? Is no till I say yes to a new date? Is no a no until maybe I feel more relaxed and have a bit more wine? Is no, um, a no until you talk more about yourself rather than just about me? More about me rather than just about yourself? Until you show a little bit less neediness?

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Until you show a little bit more respect? Until I see a sense of humor? Um, and, and so those are all the things about no that are not understood. And so if you're in a place until you turn the music up, turn it down, um, play a different type of music. Um, you know, get off the rap music and play me a nice John Legend song about love. Um, you know, and so, um, what is there that is missing?

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  That's leading me to say no. That and how and how soon will you discover it? Soon enough for me to be responsive tonight? Or I may have to wait a few more dates, or there may never be a few more dates. So those are all the questions that when both sexes. I used to do role reversal dates and men's beauty contests all around the country. And I got women to be the ones to be able to ask men out on a role reversal date. And I programmed the men to be resistant to being responsive to their sexual sexual overtures. And I programmed the the men to be on the stage and be in the beauty contest of everyday life that every woman is a part of.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Whether she's attractive or unattractive, she's looked at as as a sex object until or or she's dropped out of the competition if she's unattractive or older. And so the and so it was it was designed for both sexes to walk a mile in each other's moccasins. And so the the next thing you said that's so important is what you said about sit your ass down here would have been a sexual harassment accusation at the wrong time. And seen as a joke that expressed your trust in her and your confidence and your sense of humor at another time.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  So the the rules are so the rules create such a a robotic type of modality that is just plain not applicable to human relationships, which are based on a lot of different subtleties, including the movement of eyes. If a woman says no, and you're in the middle of making love, and she's, oh, no, oh, my God, no, no, no. Yeah, that may not mean no, stop right there. But if she says, no, I'm not liking that. That means no, stop right there.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  But the same words, but different tone of voice, different attitude, different context, as you just pointed out. With same words that could be held, make you look like a, like the next criminal. Versus making you look like somebody who had had confidence and a sense of humor and playfulness. And therefore trust in her. And so these are the things that, that the woke generation and the cancel culture generation is completely leaving out. And they're leaving it out of the university. Because I say leaving it out of the university with such emphasis on the word university. Because the university should be the place where we're exploring every possibility, every option.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  There should be nothing that is part of cancel culture. Or you're condemned with for being inappropriate in the university. It should all be fodder for listening to it. And then having a safe space to respond to it. And having a safe space provided so that the other person can listen to what you object to. But not canceling speakers that disagree with your perspective. Just because you don't want that perspective even presented. That is the opposite of everything a university should be about.

• 1:26:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Agreed. So bringing it all back around to the boy crisis. What's the way out?

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  The first, most important single way out is to understand dad's style parenting and how it differs from mom's style parenting. And how both sexes together need to create a checks and balance parenting. So that children, second is learning how to hear each other in your relationships. So you don't have to choose between getting divorced versus staying together. You really are staying together, not just to hold on to it by your, you know, and for the children's sake. But you really feel heard by your partner.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Third is to make sure we have a whole new era of what I would call a father warrior program of saying to men, dads, you are needed in the parenting process, not just if you want to be, you are needed like you're needed at war, that boys are having, boys who are fatherless today, they're the ones that are committing suicide, they're the ones that are having their intelligence drop, they're the

• 1:27:31Tom Bilyeu?

  That's crazy, fifteen point IQ drop, if I remember from the book.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  And I could have got very good memory, sixty percent drop in semen count.

• 1:27:39Tom Bilyeu?

  That's crazy, what, why would that affect it?

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Sperm count is what I should have said rather than sperm count, the, we don't, we don't know for sure, but we only know that, we only know that, my speculation is that when boys don't have discipline, they don't start generating that ability to, to do things that are above their reach, to try new things, and that decreases the, your sperm and, and your, the testosterone and your masculinity.

• 1:28:17Tom Bilyeu?

  Because of the tie to like competence and hierarchical function, and because I know as you go up competence hierarchies, you, your serotonin goes up, your testosterone goes up, your sense of like where you stand in the world, that's, if that's true, that's terrifying.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow, okay.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  It's especially terrifying because the boys who are dad deprived, they are the ones most likely to commit suicide, most likely to be depressed, most likely to, and, and most likely to drop out of high school, the ones most likely to drop out of high school, their unemployment rate in their early twenties is over twenty percent, this was unemployment when it was a three point two percent unemployment before COVID in the United States, just to give you some sense, there are more, in the Boy Crisis book, I have an appendix that lists about seventy different ways that boys suffer when they have minimal or no father involvement.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  But most of those ways also are applicable to our daughters as well. They suffer without father involvement. They're much more likely to be fearful of physical touch by men that is playful. So if they don't roughhouse with their dad, when when a man is when they're out with the man, they don't have that comfort level of non-sexual touch. And so they tend to be much more likely to become pregnant as teenagers. Why? Because as teenagers, they feel like they only know one way of that they've learned to please a guy, and that is to be sexual. So they end up being sexual before they're ready to be sexual. Or conversely, they're so afraid,

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  they don't know enough about guys as to know how to please them. So rather than even enter that arena that I just mentioned, they stay away from guys altogether. And so and then the one time they do have a connection with a guy, they are sexual with them and boom, as a teenager, they're pregnant, but not necessarily with a guy that they really want to marry. And so and so in in seventy ways that are most of them the same as with males, but but with but less intense as with males. So for example, and this the stuff that the data is just amazing. So for example, when a boy or a girl are nine and a half years of

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  age, they found that that's the amount of father involvement is a predictor of the length of their telomeres. For someone who so someone that doesn't know what a telomere is, the telomere is a part of your cell that contains all of your predictors of do you get cancer, do you are you more likely to be vulnerable to brain damage, are you more likely to be vulnerable to Alzheimer's, and so on. Boys and girls, other factors being equal, like socioeconomic factors, who have a significant amount of father involvement, their their telomeres are fourteen

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  percent longer, that is predictor predicting a longer life expectancy at the age of nine and a half than without a significant amount of father involvement. But The boys kilometers are yet again forty percent more likely likely to be even forty percent shorter than the girls when there's a lack of father involvement.

• 1:31:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Wow.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  So you so the lack of father involvement hurts both girls and boys, but it hurts boys about forty percent more intensely than their sisters. And so those are just some of the examples of how important dad involvement is. And so our first solution needs to be saying to men, no, we no longer need you so much at war to be killing and being killed, but rather we need you at home to being loved and to loving and being loved. And that the man, the the new future man is one who can respect himself if he's a

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  natural warrior at on the battlefield. We need you, we need your firefighters, but also can respect yourself and know that you're needed by your family to be more involved with your family at an everyday level and that the things that you tend to do, like the roughhousing, the teasing, the the allowing your son to take more risks by walking down a lake to a lake that's out that's a little bit away from where they are, as long as you know where that lake is and you're following somewhere behind them or climb a tree, as long as you're under the tree, creating protection. That this is that that you have a posit that your instincts, that you don't know why you're

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  doing it, learn why you're doing it so you can lovingly explain to your wife or the mother why you're doing it. So you don't just sort of seem like an autocrat who's doing things that look like a child, but you can help your the mother understand that you are truly dedicated to your children doing better and and prove that by studying not just what you do at work, but what your contribution is to the family. And one more thing on that is if you do anything with the Boy Crisis book, study the part about how to create a family dinner night without it becoming a family dinner nightmare.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  How to, how to create it so that your children are listening to you? And you are listening to your children using some of the skill sets that I was mentioning before that I do in the Couples Communication Workshops.

• 1:34:04Tom Bilyeu?

  Amazing. Warren, I, I'm beyond grateful for the work that you've done. The, the Boy Crisis is fascinating. I'll very eagerly anticipate the update to the Paradox of Male Power. Absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for taking the time to share it. Where can people follow along with you, learn more about you?

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Just do WarrenFerrell.com. I'll come up, my website will come up. On my website is my email address. I'm, I answer every single email I get. I have only one email address. So I, I take time away from my writing to do that. Cause I really learned so much from the people I connect with and the connection itself is of great value to me. And the Boy Crisis book, if money is an issue, it's, Amazon almost always has it less expensively. Right now they have a sale on, on the paperback version. The, and then I also find that many people, especially who, ones who travel or commute,

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  or use the gym a lot, love the audible version more than the print version. And I do read my part of it and John Gray, the fellow who wrote Mitter from Mars, Witter from Venus, wrote the entire part six on, on how to prevent ADHD, which we haven't talked about here because he's the expert on that.

• 1:35:28Tom Bilyeu?

  Amazing. Well, thank you again so much. Absolutely incredible. The book blew my mind. The conversation was amazing. And I look forward to continuing it. Speaking of things that you should continue doing, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.

• 1:35:51Tom Bilyeu?

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