446. The psychology of Stockholm Syndrome

The term “Stockholm Syndrome” is used to explain why someone might defend, protect, or feel attached to a person who has harmed them - but why does this happen? In this bonus episode, we explore where the term came from, some famous cases, and how the mind functions to keep us safe. We explore: • The 1973 bank robbery • Famous cases linked to Stockholm syndrome • The role of appeasement • How it relates to trauma bonding • Why dependence breeds attachment • How those experiencing Stockholm syndrome are supported Watch on Netflix: HERE https://netflix.com/thepsychologyofyour20s Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Our favourite sources: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0447.2007.01112.x https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20008066.2022.2161038 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1080/00048670701261178 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know, I'm such a data and information driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable personalized insights that have made me more intentional

• 0:49Jemma Sbeg?

  and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is.

• 1:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 1:45Jemma Sbeg?

  No one's journey is the same. That's why Delta Sky Miles moves with you. Whether it's earning miles from coffee runs to flights, to redeeming for vacations your way, or even unlocking exclusive experiences, a Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you, you. It's more than travel. It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides and arrives with you. Because when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling where your journey will take you next. These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. Your social media feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max and so much more.

• 2:29Jemma Sbeg?

  But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? Health versus Hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy nominated host Trace Dominguez talks through health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors, to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to really matters. Listen to Health versus Hype wherever you get your podcasts. Growth isn't linear. There's no magic timeline or secret template. And no one understands that quite like Southern New Hampshire University. Because SNHU has online degree programs built for whatever path you are on. Tried college before? Transfer up to 90 credits.

• 3:15Jemma Sbeg?

  And if you're new to this, no worries. Every student gets a dedicated academic advisor. And here's the best part, there's no set class times. So school actually fits your life. Ready to get started? Visit snhu.edu/psych. That's snhu.edu/psych.

• 3:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

• 3:59Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of your 20s. Apologies in advance, got it really croaked then. My voice is kind of bad. I have been sick and then also decided to kind of go out boogie boogying last night. And I don't know what it was. I wasn't singing. I think I'm just dehydrated, but she's croaky. So I'm sorry if you're one of those people who hates the sound of like, what do they call it? Vocal, what is it called? Vocal fry. I feel like I'm really giving vocal fry today.

• 4:41Jemma Sbeg?

  But it shouldn't detract too much from the content. I have a special bonus episode for you guys today. If you are not familiar with these bonus episodes, we've been doing it for perhaps the last year or so. And these are kind of more bite sized episodes where we take a popular psychology term, a phrase, a concept, a theory, and we break it down for you and we reveal what it really means, what it's actually about. Basically, we myth bust some common psychological ideas that you probably see online that maybe have lost their original meaning. But we also get into the deeper history of these terms, how they came to be so popular,

• 5:25Jemma Sbeg?

  and also some fun, you know, also less than fun facts that come along with them. Today, we have a very interesting one. I do want to give you a heads up, though. This episode does include some details about violence and domestic violence. So if that's something that you aren't particularly interested in, in hearing about, or you're sensitive to, I would probably skip this one. It's not too much detail, but we definitely mention it. We are talking about Stockholm Syndrome. I think these days when we use the term Stockholm Syndrome, it's often quite colloquial and quite casually.

• 6:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Normally in reference to a situation where someone has kind of fallen in love or become very loyal to someone or something that they shouldn't be loyal to or which is harming them. Normally in regards to love, there is a very famous One Direction song of the same name where they basically just sing about being intoxicated by this girl. You know, they're obsessed with her, they long for her, they've got Stockholm Syndrome. It is so much more than that. And it's a lot more serious than that as well. It's not about obsession, it's not about intoxication. It's actually very much about survival. So Stockholm Syndrome in a psychological sense, in a forensic sense,

• 6:50Jemma Sbeg?

  is a term used to describe what we would call a paradoxical emotional bond that forms between a victim and someone who is threatening, harming, controlling or holding them captive. That might include having positive feelings towards a captor or an abuser, having sympathy for their perspective, feeling gratitude for small acts of kindness against maybe a broader backdrop of unkindness, fear and distrust of people who are trying to intervene and get you away from this person. Basically, any feeling or reaction that we kind of see as being irrational

• 7:32Jemma Sbeg?

  or counterintuitive towards somebody who means you harm, is causing you harm, and yet people feel a sense of loyalty to them or a sense of, an emotional bond to them for strange reasons, but also less than strange reasons, as we'll get into. From the outside, the reason why we call it a paradoxical emotional bond is because, as I said, you know, it kind of goes against how we think people should react in situations like this. We have this idea that if somebody is hurting you, you wouldn't want to be around that person. If somebody is holding you captive, you're not going to have positive feelings towards them

• 8:15Jemma Sbeg?

  because they've taken away your agency and your independence and your privacy and your freedom. So shouldn't you have bad feelings about that person? Shouldn't you hate that person? And most importantly, shouldn't you want to escape that person? Shouldn't you want to take any opportunity offered to you to get away from them? The thing is, this isn't always the case. And it's not that these people are choosing or siding with an abuser or a person who holds power over them. Stockholm Syndrome is a survival strategy that forms under conditions where a person has so little choice

• 8:55Jemma Sbeg?

  and is experiencing such an extreme situation, a once in a lifetime kind of stress, that they act in the only way they see as available to them to survive. And in that situation, the way they do that is by... Forming an emotional bond by perhaps having sympathy, seeing their captor or their abuser as human as a way to connect with them. So the term first came from a very real hostage situation in Sweden in nineteen seventy three. It was a bank robbery at a credit bunker in Stockholm and it involved two captors and four employees and they were held hostage for six days.

• 9:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Now, what made the case so famous was not the robbery, although that definitely made headlines. It was what happened afterwards. Some of the captives, you know, as they were being rescued, almost seemed to fear the police more than the men who were holding them hostage. They seemed to have sympathy for these men. There was one hostage in particular, her name was Kristin Enmark, who essentially very much felt sorry for her captors, very much criticised aspects of the police response, even went on to raise money for the legal defences of of her captors and their captors refused to testify, said they trusted them fully. And this confusing reaction really caught the attention of psychiatrists and forensic

• 10:25Jemma Sbeg?

  psychologists who were seeing this way of responding as pretty counterintuitive, but also very interesting. They wanted to know kind of what happened in that situation, what happened in that bank that had turned these people so quickly into seemingly allies of the people who were harming them and holding them captive. And that's where they got the term Stockholm syndrome to refer to these four people. And what they saw as kind of like almost a medical condition or a medical reaction, a psychological reaction they had to this, to this event. This is a very simplified telling of the story. You know, we could spend two hours going moment by moment about what happened and diving

• 11:10Jemma Sbeg?

  more into the outcomes and and what happened afterwards. But it was the first time that this experience had a name. Another famous case is that of Patty Hurst. You may have heard about this. Hurst was a nineteen year old American actress. She was the granddaughter of a very famous newspaper publisher and politician at the time. His name was William Randolph Hurst. She was kidnapped from her apartment in nineteen seventy four by like a liberation army group. They were a radical political group and during her captivity, these videos came out, these recordings came out of her criticizing her family, rejecting her family. She even adopted the name Tanya.

• 11:52Jemma Sbeg?

  She was seen taking part in a bank robbery with members of the group where she herself would have had an opportunity to escape. And she was arrested. She was not rescued, she was arrested and put on trial for assisting them in crimes. And her defence argued that she had this rare thing. She had Stockholm syndrome, she'd been coerced, she'd been deeply psychologically affected by captivity. Um, and the jury saw the evidence and said, no, we're still going to convict you. So they didn't believe it. But now I think we definitely see it a little bit differently. We see what was a very young girl in a very stressful situation where she didn't feel safe.

• 12:34Jemma Sbeg?

  The only people she could trust were these people who, you know, essentially meant her harm, but they were the only ones there and she kind of fell into a relationship almost with them. So I've kind of been not referring to this as a mental health diagnosis. I don't know if you've noticed that, but for a reason, because it isn't. It still isn't accepted as, I guess it still isn't accepted as, yeah, just as a medical diagnosis. It isn't included in the DSM. There are no universally agreed upon diagnostic criteria. Stockholm syndrome is mainly just a descriptive label because it's also incredibly rare.

• 13:18Jemma Sbeg?

  Firstly, you know, it's incredibly rare for people to be held hostage for extended periods of time and to make it out alive. And in those situations, only about eight percent of people, according to FBI analysis, exhibit what we would call Stockholm syndrome. So of, you know, twelve hundred hostage situations that they looked at, um, of those that had a surviving person, eight percent, eight percent of people were kind of experiencing even just a level of sympathy, loyalty, care, trust for their captors. There's another often discussed case in relation to Stockholm syndrome.

• 14:01Jemma Sbeg?

  This woman called Natasha Kumpusch. She was kidnapped in Austria. She was ten. She was held captive for eight years and then she escaped in two thousand and six. And there's a movie about her. And after her escape, obviously she's going through such an incredibly stressful period of time in her life and just probably one of the most stressful things you can experience as a human to be kidnapped, then to form a relationship with this person, then to be rescued. And the media really grabbed on some facts of this case and were like, she feels empathy for him, she forgives him, she, look at this strange girl, she loves him. Like they were saying all these awful things.

• 14:45Jemma Sbeg?

  And this is again where Stockholm syndrome came back into the limelight. And she herself, Natasha, has been really critical of the label Stockholm syndrome. She says that it can take power away from victims by implying that they, you know, choose this reaction, that something is wrong with them, that they're weak, that they have this syndrome that's affected their brain. She really says, you have no idea what this is like until you are in this situation. This isn't a choice, this is a survival strategy. You know, if someone has spent years trapped with an abuser, learning how to read them, manage them, reduce harm, preserve some sense of psychological stability, like that's kind

• 15:30Jemma Sbeg?

  of all you really have. All you are looking for is information, information that lets somebody stay alive. And sometimes seeing your captor or seeing somebody as as human is the smartest thing you can do in that situation so that you can gain better access to their mind and how they work and why or when they might be willing to let you go or or show you kindness. So with that being said, what's actually going on here? What are the psychological mechanisms that create this kind of effect? I've been really trying to prioritise my health in a realistic way this year and something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop.

• 16:11Jemma Sbeg?

  I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a thirty day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over fourteen years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear

• 16:56Jemma Sbeg?

  it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favourite gym clothing at gymshark dot com. No two journeys look alike. That's why Sky Miles is designed to move with you wherever life takes you. Fly, it flies with you on new adventures, family getaways, business trips and the moments that matter most. Earn, it earns alongside your everyday life.

• 17:41Jemma Sbeg?

  It dines with you on special nights out, it streams alongside your favourite entertainment, rides through your daily routines and helps turn everyday moments into something more. Redeem, it helps you redeem for what's next. From spontaneous weekend escapes to the trip that you have been dreaming about, to upgrading your next trip to a premium cabin experience, the miles you've earned along the way can help take you further. Access, and it unlocks access to exclusive, one of a kind experiences and opportunities that make membership feel rewarding long before takeoff and long after landing. Because Sky Miles is more than a travel programme, it is a membership that moves with you. Fly farther, earn every day, redeem your way and access more.

• 18:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Because when your membership is as unique as you are, there's no telling where your next journey will take you. These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health and we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice, telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions

• 19:08Jemma Sbeg?

  of views across PBS, Discovery Channel and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors, to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 19:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Growth isn't linear. There's no magic timeline or secret template. And no one understands that quite like Southern New Hampshire University. Because SNHU has online degree programs built for whatever path you are on. Tried college before? Transfer up to 90 credits. And if you're new to this, no worries. Every student gets a dedicated academic advisor. And here's the best part, there's no set class times. So school actually fits your life. Ready to get started? Visit SNHU.edu/psych. That's SNHU.edu/psych. One way to understand Stockholm syndrome is through our nervous system and how it responds to threats.

• 20:17Jemma Sbeg?

  We often talk about fight, flight and freeze. But there is also a fourth reaction that we commonly call fawning, like fawn, F-A-W-N. The basic idea is that if fighting somebody is useless or dangerous, if fleeing somebody is impossible, and if freezing doesn't end a threat, we, the final option we have available to us is to move towards pleasing, placating, reading the room, reducing the risk of escalation, and perhaps even trying to convince this person, hey, look, I'm your friend. Don't hurt me. You know, imagine being physically, psychologically, emotionally, socially trapped with someone who can hurt you.

• 21:01Jemma Sbeg?

  Your brain's primary function in that moment isn't going to be to produce a balanced moral analysis of, is this person deserving of sympathy or not? Should this person, should I be kind to this person or not? Like, it's not going through this shouldn't I, should I situation. It's just like, what is going to keep us alive? So it might be that you become tuned into their mood. It might be that you start to really notice, are they irritated? Are they calm? What tone of voice should I use with them? Should I agree with what they say? Should I smile at them? Should I stay quiet? Should I act like a friend? That hyper attunement, maybe from the outside, looks like closeness, can start to feel like closeness or like a relationship.

• 21:46Jemma Sbeg?

  But it is basically a way to monitor threat and to get through this however one can. Researchers from the University of Queensland actually describe this through the idea of traumatic entrapment and appeasement. Their argument is that when a person is trapped with a more powerful aggressor, and that could be a partner, a criminal, a family member, even a really awful cruel boss, appeasement can become a crucial survival strategy, if not the only survival strategy. More recently, in a 2023 paper, so yeah, quite recent, researchers have actually argued that the term appeasement may be more accurate and have less of a victim blaming tone than Stockholm syndrome.

• 22:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Because it focuses on what the person is doing to survive, rather than implying that they had a choice, rather than implying that what this thing was, was a relationship. No, it's something else. It's something, it is something else entirely. Another mechanism at play here is when fear is transposed into gratitude. If someone threatens your life, but then chooses not to harm you, your body and your mind is going to experience intense fear and intense relief. And that relief, because it is so profound, because your life has been spared,

• 23:12Jemma Sbeg?

  your brain can misinterpret that as gratitude, or as though the captor has shown you a deep kindness. And that becomes very emotionally confusing. Over time, a lot of people report who've, who've experienced this, that, you know, the mere absence of violence, or even small moments of human decency, they feel like acts of mercy. They feel like this person may have sympathy for them. It feels like this person is human. And that convinces them that maybe they actually care about you. Maybe they care about what you're going through. And maybe, like, there is some kind of redeemable part of them. And that is a very, very critical thing that you want to hold on to.

• 23:56Jemma Sbeg?

  If you're being shown signs of kindness that indicate that somebody could be redeemable, you really want to cling on to that. And if that means trying to bring that out of them more, of course you're going to do that. They're not the exact same thing, but a lot of people will show these links between Stockholm syndrome and trauma bonding. And they say they're quite similar. Think of a trauma bond, a trauma bond is just a broader concept entirely. It's that kind of addictive emotional roller coaster that we have with a toxic partner or family member or friend, where the highs really make you stay despite the lows. There's that intermittent reinforcement there that makes you feel compelled to be with them or be around them.

• 24:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Stockholm syndrome is a very specific type of trauma bond that happens very quickly during an extreme crisis. Researchers from the University of British Columbia published an article in 1993, which found that emotional attachment can be especially strong when there is a power imbalance. And when that power imbalance seems to dictate everything that happens to somebody, but also involves this intermittent like kindness and then cruelty. The bond is not created on the kindness alone, and it's not created on the fear alone. It is created by the cycle between those two things. Threat and then relief, threat and then relief.

• 25:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Victims remain hopeful for the kind moments to keep emerging. They remain unsure when they will, and that further complicates any effort to escape or resist. Because they're perhaps waiting for the right time that they could do this. Or they're still hopeful that this person may bestow, you know, one final massive act of kindness and let them go. This also relates to isolation and that, and dependency. And the fact that in these kinds of situations, it's kind of just the people in the room. There's no outside input. It is typically one person and their captor, or a couple of people and their captors.

• 26:01Jemma Sbeg?

  In a hostage situation, somebody's wellbeing, the person's wellbeing and their survival is entirely dependent on the captor. Food, water, access to the bathroom, sleep, physical safety, all of that is controlled by the person holding them captive. The captor becomes both the source of terror and also the gatekeeper of survival. And so when you have basically zero agency, the mind does strange things. The mind tries to create agency, maybe by thinking, hey, I was kind to them today. I showed sympathy for them and they treated me this way. Therefore, maybe something I do is influencing the outcome. Maybe my actions can change what is happening to me. I can influence this. I do have agency.

• 26:46Jemma Sbeg?

  And that alone feels so hopeful and so alluring that somebody might start to mimic a relationship with somebody or mimic an emotional bond with someone. Because it seems useful and because it gives them a sense that they can change what is happening to them. There is a very relevant theory here from somebody called Jennifer Frayd, and it's her work on betrayal trauma theory. Frayd proposed that in these kinds of relationships, the mind may engage in what she calls betrayal blindness. This doesn't necessarily mean the person is unaware of what is happening, but rather that their awareness is limited, fragmented, or pushed out of their immediate conscious focus.

• 27:30Jemma Sbeg?

  This can involve forgetting, minimizing, or reinterpreting harmful behavior in ways that allow the relationship to continue. Because the relationship now feels like the only place where somebody is safe. If acknowledging the full reality of the harm would threaten access to care, protection, basic needs, then maintaining the relationship can take priority over fully processing the betrayal or thinking of a way out. This is especially evident in childhood abuse, where a child is entirely dependent on their caregiver for safety, for attachment, for survival. In those situations, recognizing a caregiver as dangerous can be so overwhelming and just simply not a reality that the child can accept, because then they would have no one.

• 28:15Jemma Sbeg?

  So they do things to instead preserve a sense of trust or attachment, even if that means distorting or suppressing certain aspects of their experience. That same underlying, you know, dynamic can also apply in coercive situations, in captivity situations, trafficking situations, or abusive situations. It is a complex form of psychological adaptation. There is some incredibly interesting research that shows us the underlying mechanism behind this. Researchers in New York conducted a study in 2010, which basically looked at a set of infant rats. And infant rats, when they're very young, very much like children, you know, rely on their mothers for everything, for warmth, for feeding, for just survival.

• 29:01Jemma Sbeg?

  And they actually learn to recognize and approach their mother largely through smell, because they can't see. What they found was that in early life, rat pups, as they're called, can actually develop a preference for their maternal odor, the smell of their mother, even if that odor has been paired with a mild electric shock. So even if that association harms them. And researchers have argued that this makes developmental sense. For a very young animal, staying close to the caregiver is so essential for survival that the attachment system can override the ordinary avoidance learning that would usually take place and say, avoid this person, avoid this thing, it's going to hurt you, it is hurting you.

• 29:43Jemma Sbeg?

  In other words, the infant rat's brain is biased towards staying close to the caregiver, because separation may be even more dangerous than the distress associated with staying with them. And we can see a lot of parallels to. Captive situations, abusive situations, coercive situations. And obviously in people that aren't children. Because when you're at that stage where like, somebody is providing everything for you, you are basically a child, right? Like, when you're a kid, your parents decide when you get fed, when you go to bed, everything about your day. When you are stripped of all agency and somebody is doing all those things for you, it's a very similar emotional and mental state to be in.

• 30:25Jemma Sbeg?

  What's really important to understand is that these responses are often not conscious, right? They're not deliberate. You, it's not, it's not a decision to sit there and think, maybe I'll bond with this person, maybe I'll form a deep relationship with them that's going to be very confusing if this ever comes to an end. You know, maybe I should, maybe I should do this or that. Like, it's not like somebody is sitting there thinking through every single part of this and what, what it means for them. Maybe they're thinking of it in a strategic sense, but a lot of the time it's automatic and it's instinctual. Again, this really comes down to our nervous system that often acts in a way beyond our complete conscious thought.

• 31:08Jemma Sbeg?

  The decision is happening fast, it's happening automatically. And what people think after the fact doesn't matter as long as there is an after the fact, as long as somebody survives. So what happens then? You know, what would happen when somebody is released? When, you know, the person who has done this to them goes to prison or dies or is arrested? Do they feel sympathy? Does that sympathy continue? You know, do, do they wanna be with that person? Like, what actually happens? What a lot of FBI interviewers and researchers found is that a lot of the time, there is

• 31:46Jemma Sbeg?

  this weird reality, like this is weird, like vacuum space between when somebody is rescued or, or survives a situation like this. And when they kind of come back to themselves, that is really, really confusing. They find that a lot of, specifically their research is on hostages. So hostages really struggle to recall exactly what happened. They struggle to recall the exact nature of their appeasement or their experiences, mainly because we know that trauma can affect memory and the ability to describe events clearly. Stress and trauma influence how memory consolidation takes place. Now, sometimes stress can create something called a flashbulb memory, which is like a very strong memory that's almost like a photograph.

• 32:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Everything is very clear, everything is, you know, memorable. Other times, though, it creates something called dissociative amnesia, where the mind literally blocks certain memories from coming up to the surface or from being consolidated in the, in the first place, causing these gaps, causing these blackout moments. This diagnosis of dissociative amnesia is a little bit controversial. I think there are some researchers out there who would say it's not real. But we do know that memory loss in the face of trauma does happen, especially if that trauma is very severe, comes upon us very quickly, and is just incredibly out of the ordinary. There's no narrative, there's no way to understand it.

• 33:16Jemma Sbeg?

  It's such a rare experience that our brain doesn't really have a story to tell us about it. In terms of how long it takes for people to break their appeasement reaction or their Stockholm syndrome, some never do, some never, never see their feelings or their reaction to their captor diminish. This is really interesting for psychiatrists because some people may say they no longer have these feelings or this sympathy or this loyalty towards the person who's held them captive or harmed them. Um, they'll say what they think people expect them to say, which is, I hate this person, I wish them harm, they're evil. But when they're really pushed or tricked, like they do still kind of slip up.

• 33:59Jemma Sbeg?

  And there's these moments where they will defend them, where it seems that these beliefs carry over because they were at one point really important for survival. It's difficult to disentangle, you know, what you felt once with what you feel now, with what is expected from those around you. And what we do know is that, you know, there might not be a timeframe. We can't say, well, it would take six months or 24 months or 36 months to heal from this. But it's rarely the flip of a switch. It's not like one moment you have sympathy, the next you don't. It's often a gradual reprogramming, very similar to cult reprogramming. Because what you're really having to grapple with is, you know, the fact that you are safe now. Like, I'm safe now, I don't need this attachment or appeasement to keep me, to keep me safe.

• 34:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, but when something that out of the ordinary and shocking happens to you, and you can see how quickly life can just be changed in a minute, how strange life can be, how scary life can be, some part of you never feels safe again. And so will continue to keep what it sees as a necessary survival skill on the back burner. What's really critical, and as I said, it's the same for cult deprogramming, is not to belittle or shame the person. You have to be very curious, you have to be accepting, you have to really be open minded. Because a big part of why Stockholm syndrome occurs is that, you know, the only person you've shared this life-changing experience with, the only person who can understand

• 35:28Jemma Sbeg?

  what you went through is your captor, is the person who did this to you. You know, that's the only other person who was probably in that room. And this person also likely told you that no one would believe you, no one would understand you, no one would protect you the way that they did. So opening up leaves, leaves somebody insanely vulnerable to those things being proven true, you know, to, it, it's such a vulnerable place to be like, I feel this confusing way. And for somebody to be like, oh my God, how could you feel that way? Or like, oh my God, that's ridiculous. Or like, what are you talking about? Suddenly, it's like, well, of course now I can't talk to anybody. The only person who would understand this is the person who created this reaction in me.

• 36:10Jemma Sbeg?

  It kind of draws people back into, into the situation when they feel shamed for it or feel like people think they've done the wrong thing. There is actually a specific kind of psychologist who specializes in cult deprogramming and in what we call exit counselling. And it's very, very rare because Stockholm syndrome is very, very rare. But again, it doesn't focus on trying to make somebody realize that they were crazy or that they should be ashamed or that this person is awful. It's really a kind of psychoeducation that says, you know, well, of course that would be your reaction. Of course, this is how your mind processed this. This is just how your brain experienced and responded to danger to keep you safe.

• 36:53Jemma Sbeg?

  So there's no shame, you're not some freak, you're not some, you know, there's not anything wrong with you. This is a very specific, unique, rare situation to be in that's still unexplored, but that we know our brain has counterintuitive and, and strange reactions to. Again, your brain doesn't care if you're fulfilled, doesn't care if you're happy, it just cares that you're alive. And this is one of the ways that it does that. So that, my friends, is our full episode on Stockholm syndrome. I know I mentioned cult deprogramming and I wanna go into it more, so I wanna let you know we're gonna do a full episode on that very, very soon. It bears a lot of similarities to exit counselling for somebody with Stockholm syndrome.

• 37:38Jemma Sbeg?

  So if you're very interested in this kind of element of things and specifically in forensic psychology, do not worry, that is coming to you soon. Thank you as always to our researcher Libby Cobett for her assistance with this episode. Make sure that you check out an episode on Netflix if you haven't already. That is right, we are now on Netflix. Not this episode though, because this is a bonus episode that is only audio, hence why these episodes sometimes sound a little bit stranger because I, guess where I am right now, I'm literally in my bedroom, I'm recording this in bed compared to my beautiful state of the art studio. So hence why, somebody actually said, she was like, oh, who was it? This, I, somebody commented and was like, are you using AI to make your voice?

• 38:20Jemma Sbeg?

  And I was like, no, I just am doing it old school, which is kind of ironic. But yeah, that's why there's a little bit of a quality difference, especially today with my voice. So if you've made it this far, thank you for bearing with me. Leave a little, what's like a Swedish emoji? Leave a little meatball down below if you're listening on Spotify and you have made it this far. I really do appreciate when you listen all the way to the end. And anything else you wanna know, hear about, keep in touch with, learn about, you can follow us on Instagram at thatpsychologypodcast or Substack, the psychology of your twenties. Until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon.

• 39:05Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know, I'm such a data and information-driven person and I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable personalized insights that have made me more

• 39:50Jemma Sbeg?

  intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise,

• 40:33Jemma Sbeg?

  whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 40:47Jemma Sbeg?

  Hi, this is Jemma Sbeg. Taking care of yourself doesn't have to mean completely changing your routine. Naturewise Vitamin D3 is an easy way to support immune, bone and muscle health every single day. And because quality matters, Naturewise has one of the first NSF certified vitamin D3 currently on the market. Plus, it's non-GMO, gluten-free and third-party tested. Visit naturewise.com to explore their vitamin D3 options and find the one that's right for you, naturewise.com. You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer is for.

• 41:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump, glowing skin. That's right, 100 hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin, it's allergy-tested and fragrance-free. I use this all the time, it makes my skin feel so fresh and plump and glowy, even under makeup, I still see an amazing difference. It never leaves my skin oily or tacky. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Some people use ChatGPT to answer questions, others use it to get real work done. With ChatGPT work, you bring the goal, plus real inputs like briefs, notes, files, feedback, data and project plans. It can help turn them into an analysis, tracker, deck outline, prototype or workflow you can review and keep shaping. You stay in control, giving direction and choosing the final output. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode, available on plus and pro plans.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.