My Parents Got Divorced, So Why Am I Still in the Middle?

When a mom reaches out on her daughter’s behalf, an old family dynamic comes into focus. A woman finds herself caught between her two divorced parents, still playing the role of mediator and emotional caretaker. As she speaks with Esther, she starts to question what really belongs to her and what it has cost her to carry stories that were never hers to hold. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. My annual Sessions Live two-day live event is coming up next month! Through clinical, cultural, and creative perspectives, Sessions Live 2026: Cultivating Aliveness: Desire & Its Disruptions explores how relationships are evolving, and how we can translate those insights into practice. Whether you’re a practicing clinician or curious mind, you’ll discover fresh insights and takeaways to help you connect and thrive. Come see me live on May 15th and 16th in NYC! Podcast listeners get a special discount with the code FRIENDSLIVE to get $100 off an in-person ticket, or FRIENDSVIRTUAL for $50 off a virtual ticket at checkout on the Sessions Live ticket page. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Esther Perel?

  Hi, hi. Hi Esther. So, this is a very interesting starting point for me. Because I think it's your mother who reached out on your behalf. Yes. And it's a gesture that I think you welcomed. I did. Great. So, I suggest we listen to her voice message. Sure. And then we'll take it from there. And we will know why she reached out on your behalf and what she was hoping to gift you by creating this opportunity. How does that sound? Yeah, sounds great. Okay, great. Let's listen.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  I think they all thought they had a pretty good childhood. Their friends thought we were like the perfect family and I hid a lot of stuff and my kids saw a lot, you know, but nobody talks about it in our family at least. In hindsight, I think my husband was really strict. And it was because she was the oldest and she had the loudest mouth and he wanted to be respected and she would go at him and I would be in the middle and I would always take her side because I just remember one conversation where he... I don't even remember the meaning of it. We were at dinner and he said, "Well, I'm gonna take your car away for three years." And I was like, "Well, that's just flipping ridiculous." You know what I mean? I have to go to work, she has to bring the kids to Crewe.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  But he never talked like that to the other two. He did once to my youngest daughter and she told them, "Never again." And he never... Like, he knows who he can get away with pushing their buttons and he obviously could with me. So I don't know how much of it is pent-up childhood anxiety, right? But we never talked about it. I mean, I think one of the reasons I got divorced was so the cycle would end and my grandchildren wouldn't have to hear him disrespect me. I said one thing about her dad yelling at her and she just looked at me and said, "We can't talk about that." And I just never talked about it again.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Right, everybody's perceptions are different. And what I remember would be different from what she remembers as an 18-year-old kid, you know? Her dad was awesome to her, you know? He did everything for his kids, and still does. He'd build you a bookcase, but he couldn't tell you he loved you as much. You know what I mean? It's just who he is. And we're all different. I couldn't build the bookcase, but I could tell him I loved him, you know?

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• 3:30Speaker 03

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• 4:14Esther Perel?

  So I watch your face as you're listening. It's like an editing process. This I agree with, that I'm not sure, this I totally disagree with. Your face is saying yea maybe nay.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  I didn't realize that it would be a roller coaster of emotions or yeah, perplex, you know, perplexity and then total agreement.

• 4:38Esther Perel?

  But I don't know from listening to mom, why you are here. So maybe we start with that. I understand a little bit about a background. Your relationship with your father, her ex-husband, that is fraught at this moment. But you can give me a little bit more precision. Why would she want you to be here? What did you come for? And what is your question?

• 5:06Speaker 04

  So I recently turned forty years old a few days ago. My parents were pretty much married for almost forty years. Three years ago, they got divorced. I have felt like for as long as I can remember, it really was this triangle of a relationship with me, my mom and my dad. I was always their Esther Perel. I really was their therapist throughout their whole relationship. I was always the one who would say the things that my mom was scared to say to my dad. I was always the one who my mom told way too many details about their relationship to.

• 5:48Speaker 04

  I continue to always see myself as this peacemaker within my family, but I think my two siblings would disagree. They think that I'm like the rebel rouser.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  But I think my goal is to just always have like genuine relationships with my parents. And right now, I feel like I can't have a genuine relationship with my father. I have my own little family. I have an adoring, loving husband. I have two little daughters. And our relationship is really built on this complete love and respect that I never witnessed from my father to my mother growing up. And I never thought that I would have. So still to this day, you know, I feel like my mom looks at me as like the wise sage who continues to give her advice.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  And yeah, she, my parents had all of their kids when they were very young. They've known each other since they were sixteen. Uh, they were the only people that each other ever dated and ever really knew. And to this day, when I interact with both of them, I kind of get the sense that they're stuck in this rut of being sixteen year olds. That's how they continue to fight and they're almost like emotionally stunted in a way.

• 7:08Esther Perel?

  Both of them?

• 7:11Speaker 04

  Both of them in a way, definitely my father much more so. My mom seems to be the one who's always at least willing to do the hard work, the dirty work of having a therapist, trying to make herself better, trying to ultimately be happy and be at peace with herself in a way that my father does in a very roundabout way. Um, a very external way, as long as everything looks good, everything feels good inside.

• 7:41Esther Perel?

  And your question in being here today is what?

• 7:47Speaker 04

  Good question. I kept thinking about this one question and I think even over the course of the past few weeks, it's really changed. I think if I were to make it really specific at this point, it would be how do I continue to have a genuine relationship with my father specifically? Um, and how do I manage, how do I manage my relationship with both of my newly divorced parents?

• 8:15Esther Perel?

  But your newly divorced parents have been living an invisible divorce for decades before.

• 8:20Speaker 04

  They have.

• 8:20Esther Perel?

  In their own home. So they're not that newly divorced.

• 8:24Speaker 04

  No, they're not.

• 8:25Esther Perel?

  And they are as attached as they were before. They may be legally divorced, but they fight no less. They're still in each other's brains, lives, nervous systems and the like.

• 8:36Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely.

• 8:37Esther Perel?

  So in fact, your situation is not that new.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. It's true. The thing that they were always so good at was pretending like everything was okay. You had to be deep in, you know, like deeply a part of the family to know the ins and outs of how my parents operated and when things were not good. And most of the time they were, that's not true. Half of the time, they were really not good.

• 9:03Esther Perel?

  Okay. So, give me a tiny bit of info about what actually happens? And what happens between you and your father?

• 9:15Speaker 04

  It's changed a lot, even over the course of the past two weeks to a month. I do feel like over the past three years, I've been grieving the loss of my father. The loss of the relationship that I once had with him. Most recently, a few weeks ago, he came to visit me. And we were texting each other beforehand and kind of decided to just pretend like everything was normal for my daughters, for everybody involved. And it was a lovely, a lovely time. Um, my dad and his new wife came over and we had a great day, actually. But the weekend before that, we got into an explosive, blowout fight at my nephew's birthday

• 9:59Speaker 04

  party. And it seems to ebb and flow, but kind of always come back to this place where I'm holding in so much anger.

• 10:10Esther Perel?

  What did you, what did you explode about?

• 10:14Speaker 04

  So, all of the things that I keep trying to get him to answer and keep feeling not satisfied about. Mostly, I saw a therapist a few years ago to figure out how to let go of this idea of holding my dad accountable for what a bad husband he was to my mother.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  He now has this kind of new fancy shiny life and this new wife. And seems to not acknowledge any of the pain that he's caused in the past. And that's been this journey that I've gone through of realizing that maybe I can't hold him accountable at all. He kind of takes no accountability.

• 10:54Esther Perel?

  Because he says, he says what? He says, I was a, I loved your mom deeply, dearly and sweetly?

• 11:01Speaker 04

  No, no, he's not.

• 11:04Speaker 04

  He's never used the word love to me or to my mom.

• 11:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, he, growing up, it was always kind of this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde situation. He had very inconsistent moods.

• 11:19Esther Perel?

  But why, if I may, why

• 11:25Esther Perel?

  is it important for you that he acknowledged to you that he was a shitty husband?

• 11:35Esther Perel?

  Who's put you to this task? Why does he need to be accountable to you about, if at all, he should maybe be to his ex? But what is it that you're wanting or needing from him by asking him to admit to you that he didn't treat his wife well? Would that justify the twenty-something years of free therapy you provided? And what is it, what isn't it for you?

• 12:09Speaker 04

  I do feel like I do my mother's dirty work a lot. And she is in my head. And I've realized only really recently that when I've had so much pent-up anger that comes out in chaotic, kind of crazy ways in public situations.

• 12:26Esther Perel?

  That you don't know whose feelings you're actually monitoring?

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I can't separate it. I've.

• 12:30Esther Perel?

  So that's a very different issue. That means the question is not how do I hold my dad accountable? The question is how do I sort out what are my feelings for my mother's feelings?

• 12:41Speaker 04

  Yes, that is definitely a big piece of it. I think the other piece is the fact that I used to be so close with my dad. He used to come visit all the time. He used to text me all the time and be very much involved in my life with my young daughters and my husband, who he has a lot in common with. And it really has been this process of letting go and realizing.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  How much of my relationship with my father was actually my mother protecting me from my father? When my dad has really hurt me in the past three years and I've let him know that he's really hurt me, he just kind of cuts ties, there's no there's no follow up. I am always the one who reaches back out to him with an apology or always wanting a little more from him. So yeah, so he used to be so involved and it was like this fading away, the slipping away of this father figure that I used to know.

• 13:39Esther Perel?

  Have you asked him?

• 13:41Speaker 04

  I have, yeah.

• 13:42Esther Perel?

  If you asked him or if you complained?

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Good question. I've confronted him.

• 13:47Esther Perel?

  Yeah, that's not the same.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:51Esther Perel?

  You've confronted him as in you were a shitty husband, now you're a shitty father?

• 13:57Esther Perel?

  So to speak?

• 13:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:59Esther Perel?

  Or have you been to say, I would love for you to see you more often. I really enjoy when you're here. And it means a lot to me.

• 14:08Speaker 04

  I feel like I've tried the whole range of possible ways of getting at him that I could ever think of. It started a few years ago, me kind of calling him and trying to talk to him one on one or driving to his house and trying to have conversations with him. And then it turned into me trying to FaceTime him or text him. Later, when kind of all of that seemed to slip away, I would try and talk to him one on one at family events. And that's kind of.

• 14:43Esther Perel?

  But when you say conversations, FaceTime, talk to him, it's what kind of conversations? It's, you usually approach him to tell him your disappointments?

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely.

• 14:57Esther Perel?

  So are you surprised that?

• 15:02Esther Perel?

  He would have less contact with you if he anticipates a scolding every time he sees you.

• 15:09Speaker 04

  Definitely. There was one time about a year ago where, as I drove to see him, I was like, I just have I always try to condense it down to its most simplest form. I'm like, I just have one message to him today. And that is that I deeply miss him. So at this one party, I tried to just say that, and with tears in my eyes and couldn't really get it out, I said, I just want you to know that how much I miss you. How much my daughters miss you. And he just didn't have a reaction. And it's been this long heartbreak of realizing that he had nothing to say in the moment, even when I tried my most compassionate version of trying to get him back.

• 15:52Esther Perel?

  He sees his sisters more?

• 15:56Speaker 04

  Good question. He would see me and my brother the most. So I'm the oldest than my brother and my little sister. It's been really interesting to see how they have really different perceptions than I do of my parents and their divorce and the relationships that we have now with both of them. All three of us are now in agreement that he has taken a big step back and he doesn't really have much of an interest in his grandchildren and

• 16:26Esther Perel?

  And what do people think? He has a new partner, he's into a new life. He sees her grandchildren. What's the understanding of why he has stepped back?

• 16:44Speaker 04

  I think, yeah, I'm always jumping into, you know, there was a while where I went down this whole Google search black hole of diagnosing him with all these different things. I was like, maybe he's bipolar or a narcissist or a covert narcissist. So I'm always looking for a reason like that because I feel like my whole life I saw the mood changes and the mood swings and I was the one who knew about their relationship more than my other siblings. So I've always been the one who's like the most invested. But their understanding of my dad slipping away.

• 17:25Speaker 04

  I think we're all in the same boat that, um, yeah, he started this new life. He kind of is holding on to this one person for dear life at this point. And after his divorce with my mom slipped into this really dark place. And I think we'll do whatever it takes to never get back to that place. So I think he had to kind of push us away.

• 17:48Esther Perel?

  How do you connect with her?

• 17:50Speaker 04

  She's incredible. She's amazing. She's so open and compassionate and she has two daughters of her own who are younger and she doesn't have any grandchildren on that side. I think I've learned only recently the story that my father has told her about our lives and my mother. And it's a very twisted version, in my opinion, of, you know, what we actually all experienced. So that's been hard. I think that's something that I'm finding to be very difficult really recently is coming to the realization about how my father continues to talk about my mother

• 18:31Speaker 04

  to the people that he's closest with and managing the blowback that comes with that and trying to protect my mother in the process and trying to kind of fake it till I make it in this new path of our relationship with my father.

• 18:51Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 19:07Speaker 05

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• 19:55Speaker 06

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• 20:40Esther Perel?

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• 21:23Esther Perel?

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• 21:43Esther Perel?

  But you asked me, "How do I have a more sincere and truthful relationship with my dad?" And then you tell me, "Two weeks ago, I had a big blow up with him, but it was perfectly truthful."

• 21:59Esther Perel?

  There was actually loads of authentic feelings in there. There was... And then the second time, he came to me, and we had a beautiful day together, and that was equally truthful. So... Your relationship with your dad is not sitting on false premises. It may not be as warm and loving and expressive and consistent as you would like it to be, but it seems everyone is kind of letting the other one know where they are at. And when your dad doesn't answer you, you know, your interpretation immediately was,

• 22:42Esther Perel?

  here I am, bearing my soul, coming to you without accusation, just from my heart, telling you I miss you, and you were stunted.

• 22:56Esther Perel?

  And why would you think he wouldn't be? He was as truthful as he could be, actually.

• 23:03Esther Perel?

  He's not a person that you reach out to with the sheer language of emotion, never was. That's what you said when you say he doesn't, or your mom said he doesn't say I love you, he builds a bookcase. So to tell him I miss you leaves him rather stumped. He has no clue what to answer.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:26Esther Perel?

  All to say that this is perfectly truthful. It's unpleasant to you. It leaves you dissatisfied, it leaves you hungry, it leaves you lonely. That he wouldn't say, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, or, oh, I miss you too, or, oh, let's do something about that. No.

• 23:47Esther Perel?

  And you know him too well

• 23:50Esther Perel?

  to actually, you don't say I miss you. At best, you say, come next Sunday.

• 23:57Speaker 04

  Yes, that's been the one and only trick that worked.

• 24:01Esther Perel?

  Yes, that's the equivalent of the bookcase. So if you want more from your dad, you may have to speak more often in the language of your dad.

• 24:16Esther Perel?

  Now, I am well aware that there are people who would hear this, who would instantly say, "Why me? Why shall I be the one? Why doesn't he adapt to me?" Because you can.

• 24:33Esther Perel?

  Because you have more latitude, because you have more flexibility, and because you want, and because you should get what you want, and be smart about how you get it.

• 24:46Esther Perel?

  And if, when you say, "Come next week," he shows up and it is going well, then you will know that you don't tell your dad, "I miss you," hoping he will say, "I miss you." You just tell your dad, "Here is when I want to see you. Come over."

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, that is the part that I've wrestled with, that just always feels so unfair, that everybody else seems to have to do the work to keep him in our lives.

• 25:18Esther Perel?

  You could say, "Why me?" It's another version, "Why me? Why do I have to be the one to adapt? Why do I have to contort myself? Why do I have to speak his language? Why do I have to turn myself over, you know, to maintain, to keep him?" But the other piece is simply, you want to see him.

• 25:41Esther Perel?

  And you kind of have an idea of how to do it.

• 25:46Esther Perel?

  And when you do, you actually get to enjoy it. Well, then just do it.

• 25:54Esther Perel?

  And not because, "Why do I have to do the work?" It's because I want to see my dad. And when I want to see my dad, I need to do A, B, C, D. That's kind of what gets him over. That's what makes him connect. That's what makes him be present. That's what... And I may be smarter. I may have more relational intelligence than him. And yeah, he's lucky, the poor guy, that because I make all these initiatives, he gets to see me and his grandchildren. But I get to see him because I want to. I don't have to justify why I want to. And it's those are my needs, not my mother's needs. I got to differentiate a bit from what is mine and what is mom's.

• 26:41Esther Perel?

  And yeah, there's something unfair about it. Like, I have to be smarter than him on some level, in this area. But ultimately, it gets justified because it answers my wish.

• 27:01Esther Perel?

  And remember, I'm not doing this to be nice to him. I'm doing this because I want him in my life. Now, why do I want him in my life? You know, I mean, we could spend an hour and analyze why he matters to you. But the main thing is, he does. And to get more of him, you can't serve tomato soup, you need to serve carrot soup.

• 27:31Esther Perel?

  You know, and you can say, "Oh my God, I love tomato soup. Why can't I for once serve him tomato soup? If you serve him tomato soup, he won't eat at your house. If you serve him carrot soup, he will. What matters to you more?

• 27:47Esther Perel?

  It's like, own your wish, is what I'm saying to you. If you own it and claim it and don't justify it. This is a strange thing for me to say, me who usually goes looking for complexity. I'm totally simplifying this. But on some level, it's like, she actually knows what to do. She resents it a little bit because she doesn't think it's fair. Because she thinks she's spending all her time thinking about how to get him over and he doesn't spend nearly as much time. That's the guy. And you can diagnose him 10 times, it's not going to change.

• 28:24Esther Perel?

  So I think you may want to change your Google page.

• 28:29Speaker 04

  I think so too. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that it's just such a simple answer or a simple idea. I think that is the route that my brother specifically has taken. A little more hands-off, a little less, you know, lying awake at 3 o'clock in the morning, overthinking his new relationship, how our relationship will go forward and just taking it a little bit more for what it is.

• 29:02Esther Perel?

  But your brother has less of your mother's voice inside of him.

• 29:06Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 29:07Esther Perel?

  So maybe the challenge for you is in love, you love both your parents, however they treated each other, that you care about each of them. And you've spent more energy on how to bring him closer to you, rather than on some level, how to delineate yourself a little bit more from her.

• 29:27Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. That's something that I have only started thinking about very recently.

• 29:35Speaker 04

  There was this, this moment at this family party where I was screaming at my father. My mother was talking to his mother.

• 29:45Speaker 04

  All just kind of desperately trying to get our point across and share our version of the story and have them accept that.

• 29:56Speaker 04

  And it was just this chaotic event. And that was, that was the thing that led my mother to reach out to you, Esther. A line that my mother kept saying over the past three years was, I just want my family back. If I could just get my family back. And I feel this big responsibility to prove to her that like we're all still intact. We're all still okay.

• 30:22Esther Perel?

  What does that mean, I want my family back?

• 30:25Speaker 04

  Good question.

• 30:26Esther Perel?

  In what way?

• 30:29Speaker 04

  She, you know, Christmas is a few weeks away. And she was about to invite my father and his new wife to her house.

• 30:39Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:39Speaker 04

  Just to literally get us all in the same room again. She desperately wants us to sleep over her house and have family holidays like we used to. And to have my dad's whole side of his family to talk to her again. And...

• 30:55Esther Perel?

  Because they don't. Because she initiated the divorce. So it's not just her children, it's the whole constellation.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  That is the big misunderstanding, that she initiated the divorce. And that's something that my father's new wife even mentioned the other day at this birthday party. I kind of got into it a little bit with her as well. And that is not the truth. My father was the one to repeatedly kick my mother out of the house my whole life. And then he finally kicked her out one last time. And she, she made the choice to stay away. She was the one who wanted to just take a break and cool things down a little bit. And he was the one who said, I don't do breaks. We're getting a divorce.

• 31:46Speaker 04

  Um, so even, even that is, continues to cause like ripple effects in, in the family. Uh, my mother continues to see his side of the family out in public. They kind of live in this small town. And she's called me crying several times, saying that they refuse to look at her. Or they've, you know, said mean things. This family, we used to all be so intact and we used to all be so close with my dad's whole side of the family.

• 32:19Esther Perel?

  And you don't speak to them anymore either?

• 32:21Speaker 04

  No, I do, I do. I'm still very close with all of them.

• 32:24Esther Perel?

  And they all ban her because they think she dissolved the family?

• 32:31Speaker 04

  Yes, I don't know exactly what they think. They're just, a word that my aunt used to describe it recently was they're all just so tribal. They're kind of, just like how he is kind of clinging to this new woman for dear life. They're doing whatever it takes to kind of protect him. Believe his whole side of the story entirely, even though they were there for so much of the chaos and the um the confusion growing up. They're really in this protective mode of totally embracing this new woman who's lovely and really protecting my dad at all costs. So it was tricky going to see his side of the family for Thanksgiving.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  And all of a sudden, I'm in this room with all these people and didn't even have this thought before I really entered the room, but I was like, oh, my mom called me crying a few days ago about how these people looked at her like she was the devil and refused to make eye contact with her, even though they've known her since she was sixteen years old. And now I'm in a room full of all of them. Nobody's asking about my mom. Um, no one seems to care. Everybody is just on the defense and I love them so much. They're such a huge part of my life, but there's just this big disconnect. This big wall goes up in front of everybody's face whenever I mention my mother.

• 33:57Esther Perel?

  Yeah, she was in the family and now she is no more.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:01Esther Perel?

  And when she is no more, she's ejected from the system and she no longer has a place in the story.

• 34:11Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 34:11Esther Perel?

  And your brother and sister also came?

• 34:15Speaker 04

  Uh, my brother was there. My sister was abroad, but yes, my brother was there.

• 34:20Esther Perel?

  And his experience?

• 34:23Speaker 04

  He again, just kinda showed up, rolled with the punches, uh, is doesn't do what I do, which is kind of like talk to my aunts and uncles and like little, little groups and try and bring my mom up just naturally, not intentionally or.

• 34:41Esther Perel?

  Of course intentionally. No, no, you bring her up intentionally because you want to check and you want to test and you want to verify your assumptions. You want to see, you know, what will it take?

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 34:53Esther Perel?

  Um, and you're going to sometimes get pushed back.

• 34:58Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 34:59Esther Perel?

  So my question is to you. It's like you go to visit them, you have a good idea that. In their tribal tradition, when you're in, you're in. When you're out, you're out. You don't do breaks. You don't do transitions. You don't do middle grounds. You don't do past.

• 35:21Esther Perel?

  Or you edit the past from the pieces that no longer belong to it.

• 35:26Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 35:28Esther Perel?

  If you don't like it, you're allowed not to go for Thanksgiving. But you wanna be there. And when you say, "My mother wants her family back," in a way, you want it too.

• 35:42Esther Perel?

  In a different version, but you want to have them talk about her in a way that maintains a continuity.

• 35:51Esther Perel?

  Or that acknowledges the past. Or that keeps a space for her, maybe even an empty seat at a table, so to speak.

• 36:02Esther Perel?

  And there's something that you are holding on to as well.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it is my mom in my ear is a big part of it.

• 36:12Esther Perel?

  What does she say? What do you hear her say, actually?

• 36:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, she said out loud, leading up to this event, "I wish that I could be there. I wish that I could see all your cousins and all their children." Yeah, "I wish I could have my family back," her famous line.

• 36:32Esther Perel?

  And then you take that, you put it in the mill, and it comes out as, now I'm talking to my cousins, and I'm bringing up my mother. And I'm testing to see if they're going to acknowledge her. And if somebody's gonna say something about her.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  It's tricky because this one specific house that I went to, my closest aunt and cousins, they are the only ones in the family who, we used to be very close with them growing up. And they're the ones who continue to maintain a relationship with my mother. And my dad actually wasn't at this Thanksgiving.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  But there are lots of moments not even created by me or um started by me where my aunt would pull me aside and check in and ask about my mom. And it was my aunt and my two girl cousins who we kind of sat down and just talked about about it all, about how how all about how sad we are that she's not here. And how they miss her and how she was their favorite aunt. And how they wish things could be different. They said, we wish that we could have her over for all the holidays instead of my own father.

• 37:53Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  So, yeah, so. So it's not entirely driven by me, but I'm obviously a big, big factor.

• 38:03Esther Perel?

  I hear what you're.

• 38:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:05Esther Perel?

  And they so. Not everybody has shunned her.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 38:13Esther Perel?

  How many siblings?

• 38:15Speaker 04

  Oh, on my dad's side, there are eight, there are six living siblings.

• 38:20Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 38:21Esther Perel?

  So there's six aunts.

• 38:24Speaker 04

  Um, most of them are.

• 38:25Esther Perel?

  Or uncles.

• 38:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, but a big family and this one family who my dad is also kind of severed ties with in a lot of ways because they still talk to my mom. It was interesting to hear you say, in just a very matter of fact way, that that is what families do. I always go back to the fact that.

• 38:49Esther Perel?

  Some, some, some families, you're either in or you're either out.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:54Esther Perel?

  When you're out, there's no need to mention you anymore.

• 38:57Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 38:57Esther Perel?

  That's one model. There are many different pieces, but some, yes, like your dad says, if you talk to my ex, you know, you make you you choose, basically, you choose, you choose me.

• 39:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:09Esther Perel?

  You know, you you choose your brother or you choose his ex-wife.

• 39:13Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 39:14Esther Perel?

  That's another either or, you know. Um, some try to stay in touch secretly.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:22Esther Perel?

  Some do it publicly. Some edit the story. Everybody will have a story about your your parents' marriage.

• 39:30Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 39:31Esther Perel?

  And what went wrong.

• 39:33Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 39:34Esther Perel?

  And.

• 39:36Esther Perel?

  The stories won't necessarily fit. And everybody is kind of a free author.

• 39:43Esther Perel?

  But some stories will have more currency than others.

• 39:48Esther Perel?

  And because people have been very much in touch through an extended family for a long time, it demands a ton of rearranging. And when your mom wants to invite your dad to come over for Christmas, it may be a premature, but it may also be that he will not, he won't give her that pleasure.

• 40:11Esther Perel?

  He wants to have the last word.

• 40:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:14Esther Perel?

  So he won't necessarily come, at least not immediately. It may come if his wife says, you know, there's a new whisperer. And she, if she's as wonderful as you described, she may say, it's important for you to maintain contact. It's important for your family to be able to be, maybe I'll bring my daughters as well. The puzzle

• 40:38Esther Perel?

  can take many shapes in this transition after a great divorce, right? Everybody already has their own family units. People were together for 40 years. There's a lot of stories they can use to rewrite story,

• 40:56Esther Perel?

  to rewrite history.

• 41:01Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

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• 43:20Esther Perel?

  The question for you is, how do you step out of this triangular situation?

• 43:29Esther Perel?

  And it seems to not be an easy thing for you to do. Yeah.

• 43:36Esther Perel?

  In fact, you don't like it, but you can't resign. And that's my question, is how do you resign from a job that is no longer needed?

• 43:50Esther Perel?

  Yeah, so true. They will not agree. Serves no purpose. No, they will each have a different story about what happened. You are not there to try to make one unified story. She will say this, he will say that, and you will say something else.

• 44:09Esther Perel?

  Everybody will have their version of what happened, why it ended this way, who ended it.

• 44:19Speaker 04

  So interesting. That makes me really think that, you know, the same thing that I keep faulting my father for, having this very black and white version of reality and what happened in their divorce is kind of exactly what I'm doing. I keep thinking, I'm in this triangular relationship. I was the one who was there for all the pain and suffering and therefore I'm the leading expert on their relationship. When in fact, like you said, that may be a job that isn't for hire anymore.

• 44:59Esther Perel?

  I mean, you do know a lot, but you may not want to keep your position.

• 45:07Esther Perel?

  But you know, it's disorienting when we resign.

• 45:13Esther Perel?

  Because while we don't like the position, it also confers a sense of specialness, a sense of expertise, sometimes a sense of a certain power. There's a certain kind of secondary benefits at times. Even while we think, why am I doing this? This shouldn't be me. I shouldn't have to be in the middle. But there is something about having been recruited for the middle

• 45:39Esther Perel?

  that then turned into voluntary

• 45:43Esther Perel?

  service. And to let go of the service is to no longer be that much in the center, to not be in the know. And while it clears a tremendous amount of psychic space, it also can be suddenly disorienting, like then, then where am I?

• 46:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:05Esther Perel?

  What's my place? When I had such a clearly defined place?

• 46:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm so close with my mom and when she comes over, you know, I really have tried to be better at like setting boundaries and saying, this whole weekend, we're not going to talk about dad.

• 46:23Esther Perel?

  And you succeed?

• 46:24Speaker 04

  No, eventually it always creeps in.

• 46:27Esther Perel?

  Alright, so how do we have a little button that buzzes?

• 46:34Esther Perel?

  Every time, you know, you're being pulled back in. Do you ever talk about you?

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 46:43Esther Perel?

  So it's not that there is a shortage of other topics, but this one is always on the menu?

• 46:49Speaker 04

  Yes, she's always willing to, you know, share another disheartening story that I somehow missed from my childhood.

• 46:58Esther Perel?

  And then you, what would you do if you actually did it differently?

• 47:06Speaker 04

  How would I do it differently if, if she started to engage in a conversation about my father? Yeah.

• 47:12Esther Perel?

  Did I ever tell you that time when we came home? And this is what happened?

• 47:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, usually I'd say, wow, you never told me that before. No, please tell.

• 47:27Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 47:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:28Esther Perel?

  And your dad that day was utterly unbearable.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  I might say, I need a break. I need to not even know this information because it creeps into my brain at three o'clock in the morning and I can't get it out. And it really kind of lives right inside of me and comes out in a really strong, awful, passionate way when I see my father the next time. So I just need to stop you right there and have you keep that one for yourself.

• 48:13Esther Perel?

  How does that one feel?

• 48:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, that feels good.

• 48:21Esther Perel?

  Mom, there's a lot that you need to work through and you have a lot of unpleasant memories. I know this is a lot for you to carry. Unfortunately, I can't carry it with you.

• 48:38Esther Perel?

  Whenever you tell me something, I go to bat for you. It translates into into a rift between me and Dad.

• 48:50Esther Perel?

  As if it had happened to me. And I know it hasn't. And I have to find a better way for your stories not to enter under my skin.

• 49:05Esther Perel?

  I wish I could hear your stories without personalizing them. If you told me you had coffee yesterday, I wouldn't personalize it.

• 49:16Esther Perel?

  If you told me you like pain au chocolat, I wouldn't personalize it.

• 49:21Esther Perel?

  I know that this is you and not me. But when you start talking about that, somehow the line has been crossed for me. I have not always known to separate the two. So, I know how hard it is for you to carry this, but I'm sorry, I can't listen.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:44Speaker 04

  I think for my mom, that would be...

• 49:49Speaker 04

  I anticipate that that would be heartbreaking for her to hear. I struggle with those kind of boundaries with her.

• 49:58Esther Perel?

  To hear which part? The part that you won't listen to her stories? Or the part that her stories create conflict between you and your dad?

• 50:09Speaker 04

  I think the first, and I think she takes it all in, she takes all the guilt on herself. I think that in a way, me creating a boundary just like adds to the guilt and shame somehow, instead of like freeing her up to problem solve on her own.

• 50:24Esther Perel?

  Hmm, so, let's address that.

• 50:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:28Esther Perel?

  And she feels guilty about what? Leaving him or staying?

• 50:33Speaker 04

  Both, at very different times. She, her, her line, my whole life would be, it's so much, so much easier to stay. It's so much harder to go.

• 50:43Esther Perel?

  Right. And she feels guilty in what sense?

• 50:49Speaker 04

  She, every time that I hang up the phone with her, she says, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I ruined my family."

• 50:56Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:56Speaker 04

  "I'm so sorry that you still have to overthink this and talk to somebody about this."

• 51:02Esther Perel?

  Right. Well, one way I may talk about it less is if you talk about it to me less.

• 51:10Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:12Esther Perel?

  By your continuously bringing it up,

• 51:15Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:16Esther Perel?

  it actually keeps it awake and alive.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm, definitely.

• 51:21Esther Perel?

  And if you really want to help me, this is what you can do.

• 51:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:31Esther Perel?

  But then it really needs to be, if you really want to help me.

• 51:36Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:37Esther Perel?

  Not if you say you wanna help me, but in fact you want me to help you.

• 51:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:45Esther Perel?

  You made your choices. It's okay, it's for you to deal with.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:51Esther Perel?

  I'm taking care of my part of the story.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:57Esther Perel?

  But if you think about the effect it had on me, then the best thing you can do is to stop.

• 52:05Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 52:08Esther Perel?

  And the best thing I will do is to stop you.

• 52:12Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, there have been, we've tried it. I think we've like dipped our toe in and now is the time to really commit to making that happen.

• 52:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, because I am so open and honest with her. And she's been there through the good and the bad.

• 52:36Esther Perel?

  Yeah, this is all done in love, with love.

• 52:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:39Esther Perel?

  You, you, I understand, you are continuously reexamining your relationship.

• 52:46Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:47Esther Perel?

  And it's important that you reexamine your relationship by yourself. More so.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's powerful to hear from you.

• 52:57Esther Perel?

  You know, but it's very important that this be done not in confrontation.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:02Esther Perel?

  With clarity, you're gonna do this trial and error, you're gonna miss many times because you're so routinized into tell me more and tell me the story and let me dig into your well.

• 53:13Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. Absolutely, yeah.

• 53:17Esther Perel?

  And then exactly at three o'clock in the morning, you wake up in the middle of the night and the next time you see your dad, you spit out to him as if you were the wife. And there is a confusion of roles and a confusion of who's who and what belongs to whom.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:34Esther Perel?

  A boundary is not about people staying outside, a boundary is how to actually connect to people. But you connect from who you are and not from a merging of the stories as if her life had been yours. You have your own marriage.

• 53:50Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:53Speaker 04

  There was an exact example of that role reversal. My mom went to go talk with my dad one-on-one recently, they went to go have brunch together and they had a lovely time. They hugged each other, they each apologized to each other.

• 54:07Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:08Speaker 04

  And then my mom came back and told me, oh, I hate that I was so friendly. I wish that I said this, this and this.

• 54:17Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  And then it was the next time that I saw him, I was.

• 54:22Esther Perel?

  You told him to decide this?

• 54:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:27Esther Perel?

  Okay, so I have to find a way not to be a thief, right? Everything goes through me poorously and pours out on the other side.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:39Esther Perel?

  And I feel like it's off. I realize that I am saying things.

• 54:48Esther Perel?

  They're not really mine.

• 54:53Esther Perel?

  I pour out, you know? It's as if I've been... Something has been dumped inside of me and it needs to be let out. But it doesn't feel...

• 55:08Esther Perel?

  In this case, I'm gonna use your word, it doesn't feel truthful.

• 55:13Esther Perel?

  Meaning it's yours, but it's not yours.

• 55:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, interesting. It always does feel like it lives right here. Like it's not even far down in me. It's just something that I take in and have to spit back out again.

• 55:27Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:29Esther Perel?

  Does that resonate, the description I just made?

• 55:32Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely.

• 55:35Esther Perel?

  Two or ten?

• 55:37Speaker 04

  It's definitely a ten.

• 55:39Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 55:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:42Esther Perel?

  So if you go home and you tell your mom about this session, since this is a session that she offered you, how do you thank her at the same time as you also say to her, "I'm about to do something that's gonna be new for both of us and maybe challenging for both of us"?

• 56:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it will be really good. I think, in a way, both of us anticipated that this would be a big theme brought up. My mom is truly selfless and I think she's, she's ready to receive it.

• 56:23Speaker 04

  It's going to be a little tricky and we're gonna definitely stumble on the way, but I think, I think a clear line in the sand needs to be drawn.

• 56:35Esther Perel?

  Let me ask you something. When your mom told you, "I should have said da, da, da, da, da", and then the next time you met him, you told him da, da, da, da, da,

• 56:48Esther Perel?

  at what point did you feel that the package had been dropped on your chest?

• 56:56Speaker 04

  Uh, good question. Probably as soon as my mom told me.

• 57:01Esther Perel?

  Okay. You're gonna use that cue.

• 57:06Esther Perel?

  You know, there is a kind of an incoherent but immediate feeling you have physically in your body. When she transfers

• 57:18Esther Perel?

  her emotional experience onto you.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:25Esther Perel?

  Generally, people know it. They don't, it, it, it, it's like it stiffens the neck and the shoulder. There's something, they know that something is entering them. That's a foreign object. It's not theirs. At that moment is when you have to act.

• 57:47Esther Perel?

  Not because of what she says. Because she can say other things at other times and you don't have that feeling and that's fine. That's how this is not becoming something so rigid. But when you have that feeling like, ooh, you know, foreign antennas are entering here.

• 58:06Esther Perel?

  Then you know that you have to create that demarcation.

• 58:11Speaker 04

  It's, it's funny how, how long it takes to realize that.

• 58:16Speaker 04

  To look back in retrospect and be like, huh, that's exactly how that played out. But yeah, usually I take lots of breaths and I huff and I puff and I might stand up and say, no, you've never told me that story before, but I'm like collecting it all right here.

• 58:30Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yes.

• 58:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:32Esther Perel?

  Yes, and it doesn't matter if you have or if you haven't. That story belongs to you.

• 58:41Esther Perel?

  And I trust that you will find a place for it.

• 58:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, she will. She has so many friends and coworkers and she has a great therapist, so she will. It's just, yeah, it's leaving this

• 59:01Speaker 04

  this relationship behind with my father and also, yeah, starting our own new path forward.

• 59:08Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 59:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:12Esther Perel?

  Thank you so much.

• 59:13Speaker 04

  Thank you so much, Esther.

• 59:23Speaker 08

  This was an Astaire calling. A one-time intervention phone call, reported remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 1:00:04Speaker 08

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 1:00:27Speaker 09

  I'm a voice agent powered by Deepgram. I don't just understand words, I understand context. Like when you're fixing the sink and say, "We've got a leak." You're talking about a pipe. But when you're a new parent and you say, "We've got a leak." You mean that you're going to have to change into a clean shirt. Oh, it's everywhere. Deepgram understands words and context across STT, TTS, and voice agents. That means better conversations at production scale. Learn more at deepgram.com/contextiseverything.

• 1:00:58Speaker 10

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