Wedding Woes About My Mom

She’s getting married soon, but before she walks down the aisle, she wants to walk toward her mother with more understanding. Years of complicated emotions since her parents’ divorce have built walls between them. With Esther’s insight, she learns how to acknowledge her own feelings, understand her mother’s defenses, and lay the groundwork for a more loving connection. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. My annual Sessions Live two-day live event is coming up next month! Through clinical, cultural, and creative perspectives, Sessions Live 2026: Cultivating Aliveness: Desire & Its Disruptions explores how relationships are evolving, and how we can translate those insights into practice. Whether you’re a practicing clinician or curious mind, you’ll discover fresh insights and takeaways to help you connect and thrive. Come see me live on May 15th and 16th in NYC! Podcast listeners get a special discount with the code FRIENDSLIVE to get $100 off an in-person ticket, or FRIENDSVIRTUAL for $50 off a virtual ticket at checkout on the Sessions Live ticket page. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  My mom and I have gone through many phases over the last 10 years. And there's this cycle that typically goes, everything's kind of fine. She's doing things or saying things that make me feel uncomfortable or upset, but I'm, you know, dealing with them on my own. I'm not expressing it. And then at some point, it all becomes too much and it all comes out. So I say how I feel, that makes her angry. We don't talk for a while. Then we have some sort of resolution conversation in which I feel cautiously optimistic that a different kind of relationship is possible. Then we kind of rinse and repeat.

• 0:48Speaker 00

  And so when I first reached out, we were kind of at the beginning of that cycle again. We'd had one of those blowout conversations. And I was just feeling and still am feeling like there's got to be something else to try because I really feel like I'm just running into the same wall over and over again. You know, now I would say my mom and I are kind of back in a peaceful place where we're speaking, but I still feel quite guarded. And so I guess my central question, is there another way to do this? Is there another way that I can interact with her

• 1:31Speaker 00

  and rebuild this relationship that doesn't leave me feeling either like I'm putting myself in an emotionally unsafe position or I'm ignoring my true feelings of hurt?

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• 2:37Speaker 02

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• 2:41Speaker 03

  Life's too short to be like manually filing insurance claims and like being on hold, waiting for like the lab tests that the, you know, that the doctor did. Like, I don't know, I feel like it's allowing me to show up in ways that I've always wished I could show up. I just am so strapped for time.

• 2:56Speaker 02

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• 3:23Esther Perel?

  At this moment, what I mainly know is my mom and I get into knots. I get stuck. I don't know what I need to do in order, A, to accommodate her without feeling that then I abandon myself, or I stay close to my truth. And then I feel like I can't connect with her. And I love the rinse and repeat image because what you're admitting is I'm stuck. I realize this isn't the way to go about it. I would like to find a different route. And I'm ready to take the risk because you've reached out twice.

• 4:04Esther Perel?

  So I see that as an invitation to see if there was a whole different way to go about this. But I do need to hear a little more from you and to get a little bit more color to the palette.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Absolutely, yeah. So I grew up in a very loving nuclear family of two moms, me and my brother. And my parents had a very close relationship. And our family had a close relationship. And their relationship and marriage was was really central to our family identity. Because they were two women. And they were two women having a family in the nineties. And they didn't have the legal recognition and protection.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  And so they really went out of their way as they had to. And as they chose to, to be incredibly intentional and devoted to that.

• 5:13Esther Perel?

  And they were together before they had the two of you?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Yes, they had been together for a while, maybe over ten years, I think.

• 5:23Esther Perel?

  And they each bore a child or they?

• 5:25Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:26Esther Perel?

  Each born, uh huh. And the one that you're having detention with?

• 5:30Speaker 00

  She is my non-biological mother.

• 5:32Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  When I was nineteen, my parents split up.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  And it was, not to be dramatic, but it really was devastating. It really felt like it came completely out of nowhere. It just felt so confusing and shattering. And for the first few weeks, I wasn't at home during this time. But over the phone, I kept asking, what what happened? This doesn't make sense. This like, this doesn't add up to me. And they didn't want to tell me, and they didn't want to tell me, and they didn't want to tell me. And then finally, uh, my mother told me that she'd had an affair.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  And they tried for for a while to repair the relationship. And this was 10 years ago now.

• 6:32Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  They ended up getting divorced a few years after they separated. And they both have new partners. And it was very hard for me for, you know, at at the beginning of that. And it continued to be hard and I continue to have complex emotions about it. But overwhelmingly, I'm at a place with my other mom, definitely. And kind of with the scenario really of peace where so many wonderful things have come since then. My other mother's new partner, who I absolutely resented so intensely, and God bless him for

• 7:15Speaker 00

  his patience with me, is now an incredibly important person in my life. And what remains is this incredibly difficult relationship with the mother who had the affair.

• 7:30Esther Perel?

  Is that a piece of the story? Is the fact that she had an affair, the fact that the relationship dissolved?

• 7:39Speaker 00

  So it's a piece of the story because

• 7:43Speaker 00

  the central conflict that kind of underlies all of our issues. It's her refusal to take any responsibility for her own role in what happened. So in in her mind, she didn't do anything wrong. You know, this all happened to her. And in her mind, she does not have any responsibility in that. And at the time, I felt very much like all of the responsibility is hers. And now I have much more nuance than that. And I I recognize that it never is as simple as that. And I don't completely blame her at all.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  But she won't recognize her own actions and how they've affected me. And it just always comes back to that for me, where she wants me to feel

• 8:39Speaker 00

  bad for her and feel the sorrow that she's lost her family. And I am just like, I just can't, I can't go there with her.

• 8:49Esther Perel?

  Give me a few lines, just so I can hear the script.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  It goes something like,

• 8:59Speaker 00

  "I feel really hurt by everything that happened, and I feel as if you've never acknowledged those feelings and how your actions affected me." And she'll say, "Well, I was hurt too. I lost my family too." And I'll say, "Yes, I understand that, but I didn't have any say in it. I was the kid in this scenario and you were the adult." And it goes kind of back and forth on that, where she says, "Well, you don't have the right to be so upset at me. I didn't do anything. These things happen."

• 9:45Speaker 00

  And she and my other mother don't really have a relationship because my other mother also found it difficult to move on without her acknowledging

• 10:00Speaker 00

  her responsibility, and so she chose to walk away. And it's difficult because the jealousy that comes from my mother, who I have a difficult time with, like she's jealous of my relationship with my other moms. She's, she's very stuck in this like...

• 10:21Esther Perel?

  So let me ask you something. These traits of defensiveness, lack of accountability, justification of one's actions,

• 10:34Esther Perel?

  is that the first time that she acted this way? Or this is the woman you've actually always known that now applied it to another set of circumstances?

• 10:44Esther Perel?

  What's the history between the two of you? When you're upset, when you're mad, when you're frustrated, when you wanna make a comment? Are your feelings had all allowed, recognized if they counterhers?

• 10:59Esther Perel?

  You were nineteen, right? So there was nineteen years of history before that.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. When it happened and it it felt very much like a night and day shift. It felt very much like, who is this person? I don't recognize her.

• 11:19Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, okay.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  With more time and hindsight, some of it tracks more. And I'm able to see ways in which my other mom balanced her out and she wasn't as intense. But there were a few times, there definitely were, when her emotions trumped all else and it was like she had blinders on.

• 11:47Esther Perel?

  And when you talk about it with your other mom, what does she say?

• 11:52Speaker 00

  She's sympathetic. She wishes it weren't so difficult for me. She understands what I'm feeling because she's felt it.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  And she is set a firm boundary of protecting herself. And she's very supportive of me around my relationship with my other mom. She's always offering to have less time with me so that my other mom can have more time with me, which is just frustrating because that's not what I want in that, you know? It's it's sweet, but...

• 12:32Esther Perel?

  But it makes you wanna have more time with her.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, right, yeah.

• 12:38Esther Perel?

  What would you want? Do you want her to recognize more of your experience? Or you want a different way of dealing with her?

• 12:51Esther Perel?

  It's not the same, right?

• 12:55Speaker 00

  It's not the same, and I'm thinking about how she's not completely unaware to my emotions and my feelings, and I think she is sympathetic in her way.

• 13:10Esther Perel?

  Like, have you ever had the chance of simply asking her,

• 13:15Esther Perel?

  "Is it difficult for you to recognize that this was a real painful experience for me?" And that that doesn't mean that it wasn't painful for you too, but is it difficult for you because you feel like you contributed to my pain? Or because you think that when I say that, I don't recognize yours? Just curious.

• 13:39Speaker 00

  We've had many conversations that are in that vein. It's usually much more emotionally charged because, well, I'm much more emotionally charged because I've let myself get to a point where I have all this pent-up feeling, a feeling as if I'm putting my own desires and comfort and beliefs on hold so that we can be civil, and she gets very defensive.

• 14:10Esther Perel?

  Have you ever had the opportunity of asking her just about her own experience without inserting yours? Just kind of tell me, you know, tell me the story as you see it.

• 14:26Speaker 00

  I haven't, and it's hard to imagine that.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  And maybe this is the place where I'm stuck, and it's the part that I have to let go of. But hearing you say that, I want to say, but she's like, why should I give her more

• 14:49Speaker 00

  grace and room to share her story? All we've been talking about is her story and her pain.

• 15:00Esther Perel?

  That is true. This is not going to be about how you make her recognize you more. This is going to be about how you deal with her differently. And I have a feeling that some of the things I'm going to say are going to twist your stomach.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  That's okay.

• 15:15Esther Perel?

  Because we have to go, we don't have to, but because I'm imagining loosening the grip. Because you keep coming back to receive something that you don't get. And that makes you come back for more that you don't get. And then you're stuck between do I give in or do I hold up? As if there's only two options. And I'm thinking, when you ask her that question, you just kind of say, okay, can I listen for 10 minutes to her without instantly feeling that I'm sacrificing myself

• 15:59Esther Perel?

  and compromising my own integrity and just simply be curious? Without thinking, why shall I give her when she gives me nothing? I give her because I'm curious, because I want to actually figure this out. That's my only reason. And because I don't feel that what I do works. I don't know what I want to do instead, but one thing I know is that what I do is not working.

• 16:29Speaker 05

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• 16:55Esther Perel?

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• 17:40Esther Perel?

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• 18:02Esther Perel?

  Did I read correctly that you are getting married?

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:06Esther Perel?

  So,

• 18:09Esther Perel?

  this is an interesting moment to be having this conversation, right? Because part of it is going to be, how much do I want her involved? And how close can she come to me, et cetera? Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna think out loud a few, and you can, with your finger, tell me up or down, or you can tell me two or five. Five means better than two.

• 18:32Esther Perel?

  And we're gonna just play a little game. Some of this is often paradoxical. Just so we are clear, it's not meant to be taken at a literal level. One option is exactly this. You know, I noticed that many times you've been trying to tell me how hard this was for you. And unfortunately, it's as if you're saying it only when I come to try to tell you, but I'd love to hear. And then you sit down, you take a pen, you take a piece of paper and you write it down, so that you don't have to react. And you just say, "Let me see how this woman puts her story together."

• 19:16Esther Perel?

  Option two is, there's something you've been trying to tell me. And we seem to always circle back and know at the same bone. Curious. Now, every time you say "I'm curious," you're gonna have to fight, "Why do I have to be curious and why should she not be curious? Why me?" Simply because you're trying to differentiate yourself from her. Because you don't like what you're doing and you're doing it for yourself. You're not doing it because you think it makes life easier on her and it gives her a pass. Version three, I see no fingers yet.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Oh. Both good.

• 19:58Esther Perel?

  Other line is, um, you know, when I tell you how difficult this was for me, I really am not trying to tell you that you wronged me. I'm actually seeking to connect with you. And somehow, that's not coming across. I'm coming to get closer to you. In your mind, that getting closer includes you recognizing me. But basically, I'm not coming just to vent. I'm coming because I'm trying to repair something. Have you noticed that? Thank you. Three up. But I need to grade them too. They're not all at the same quality level.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  That one sparked the most, um, discomfort in me, which I think means that it's maybe the best one.

• 20:50Esther Perel?

  Because I turned it upside down, you see? Because you say, "If I go to tell her how hurt I was and how shocked I was, it's as if I'm coming to attack her." But in fact, if I want her to recognize my pain, I'm actually coming to seek a connection.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that feels very true to me.

• 21:08Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:10Esther Perel?

  So, how do I tell her that? And then you say, "I really need you to not speak right now. Because I want you to actually take in what I'm saying."

• 21:23Esther Perel?

  I think you experience me as coming to attack you and blame you. But in fact, I am coming because I want you to know what was going on with me as a way to weave back the thread between you and I.

• 21:40Esther Perel?

  I am actually not coming to talk about you. I'm coming to talk about me.

• 21:46Esther Perel?

  And if she tries to talk, you just say, just to me, the courtesy, and stay with me. I have more. And then you say, I am 10 years later, and I don't see things in the same way that I used to. I bought into your story. I bought into the beauty of this relationship. And I really thought things were beautiful. And maybe they even were. I don't know what prompted you or what happened. But I think what I need to hear from you is that what I believed in was real. Especially as I get married myself, it's very important for me to know that I didn't live in a lie.

• 22:32Esther Perel?

  That a love story in which I grew up actually existed.

• 22:38Speaker 00

  I actually do believe that.

• 22:40Esther Perel?

  Good. Good.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  That part I don't struggle with.

• 22:45Esther Perel?

  Then if you don't struggle with it, it may even be more of a reason why to bring it to her.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:52Esther Perel?

  Because it gives her a different understanding of what you're coming to ask. Now, she may be very defensive, generally speaking, because it feels to her that one wrong thing means that the whole thing is wrong.

• 23:08Esther Perel?

  In which case, usually, we say, there is a strategy, which is that we start with a bunch of positive things. Now, sometimes that feels very difficult, because it's like, why do I have to rub this in sugar?

• 23:21Esther Perel?

  If all I want to say is a few things, you know, straight out of my mouth. Because we talk in order for the other person to hear it.

• 23:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:29Esther Perel?

  To just get it out of our system, you can talk to anybody. So what you know about her is she's maybe sensitive to criticism and...

• 23:43Esther Perel?

  She doesn't like not to do things well. And she doesn't like the idea that her actions may have been hurtful to others. And so, I am clear, you can say, that hurting me was not the thing you intentionally meant to do. I know that. The whole point is that you hold her hand, by the way, while you're speaking, because there's plenty of research about how digging into conflict while actually having physical contact creates a bridge. I would almost call it a transmission of oxytocin that allows two people who are at odds to actually become closer.

• 24:28Esther Perel?

  The other thing is also to say, "And I know that you really did not mean to hurt me. And that's why I can come and tell you how hurt I was. Because if I thought you had been intentional, I wouldn't trust you." And then you hold her hand. You just said, "I just want you to hold my hand. As we go into this wedding, I need to say a few things to you. And I need you to..." And if she speaks, you put your finger in front and you just very gently say, "Wait a little bit longer. I'm here to give to you. I'm not here to scold you.

• 25:13Esther Perel?

  I'm not here to berate you. I'm not here to score points with you." The goal of this whole thing is not necessarily for her to acknowledge and to recognize. It's actually for you to not need her to acknowledge it to the extent that you do in order to experience the legitimacy of what you're feeling.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  I'm definitely open to trying that. And I think in in talking through it with you, it's helpful to hear back the way that I the way that I sound in, well, why should I be the one? And I have known that, but it's it's different to hear you say it and think about it as I can choose to let go of that and it doesn't change what happened.

• 26:12Esther Perel?

  Nor how I feel.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Nor how I feel.

• 26:15Esther Perel?

  Meaning about these issues. It's I don't need her.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:22Esther Perel?

  To see it, to acknowledge it, to recognize it for me to know that is it's it's just it's my experience, it's valid. And I may have to live with the fact that there's a lot of things that are wonderful with her and there's a few places that are really stuck. If I bring this up, I'm rarely gonna get, she just can't.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:45Esther Perel?

  And I don't really wanna be Moses and the rock.

• 26:50Esther Perel?

  And I'll bang and bang and hope that water will flow 'cause the water won't flow.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:56Esther Perel?

  Not from that place.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Because it doesn't, even if I'm not arguing with her or being confrontational, I feel really confined and uncomfortable and like I like it's an uncomfortable shirt I wanna take off.

• 27:18Esther Perel?

  Do you get along with her new partner?

• 27:21Speaker 00

  She's fine.

• 27:26Esther Perel?

  All right, that says it all.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  She's fine and I'm really glad that my mom has found someone. It's made my life a lot easier.

• 27:37Esther Perel?

  Because before?

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Before so much more of her energy was focused on the past and going back to that or

• 27:54Speaker 00

  resenting me moving on, maybe? And so it felt like a lot more to ho- to hold off, almost.

• 28:04Esther Perel?

  So let me ask you. Is there a community around your family of close friends?

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:12Esther Perel?

  And is there one of these close friends who you could identify as a liaison?

• 28:19Speaker 00

  For what?

• 28:22Esther Perel?

  For transmitting some messages.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  I mean, there definitely is someone, but I don't know how that would feel to her.

• 28:36Esther Perel?

  You would never send her as a messenger?

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 28:40Esther Perel?

  You would simply, one day, have the opportunity to talk and to ask how did she experience this whole transition? And then you will share some of how you've experienced the whole transition. And then you will express some of your own longings about the wish that some of your own transition had been more acknowledged. And you'll just deposit seats. You don't say anything.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I have had those conversations.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  I have those people and I have had those conversations and

• 29:22Esther Perel?

  And did the information flow?

• 29:25Speaker 00

  No, because I believe that they also know that that wouldn't be taken.

• 29:33Esther Perel?

  Okay, so you're not alone. So that's, that helps you. On some level, that helps you even more, because then you know that it's less about how do I get in there? And it's more about how do I resist the urge to knock at the door where this is not what I'm gonna receive?

• 29:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:56Esther Perel?

  And in fact, this is about her. And I see it because I talked to a number of her, of their friends. And I see that there's a bit of a consensus. That some people are wonderful. And there's a few areas where it's better not to reach out to them.

• 30:16Esther Perel?

  And then sometimes people say, well, if I can't do that, then I shouldn't have a relationship at all. But I don't hear that. I think you may have had that at some phases.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  But I don't feel that now. Yeah.

• 30:29Esther Perel?

  So then you know.

• 30:34Esther Perel?

  She can't. She won't. Not yet. Not now. And then when she reacts, it was very hard for me too.

• 30:45Esther Perel?

  Here's the answer. Brace yourself.

• 30:50Esther Perel?

  I know that. And I also know that you have often felt that there was not enough recognition for that toward you.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:01Esther Perel?

  I know that you're telling it to me each time.

• 31:06Esther Perel?

  Because there is this belief that since you're the one who left. You have nothing to complain about. You did what you wanted. Or you had the affair. And you're saying it like someone who feels that nobody actually ever saw their pain. Because all they saw was their action. You cringing or it's okay?

• 31:31Speaker 00

  No, no, it's okay.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  It is. I think you're right. I think that is how she feels. Yeah.

• 31:43Esther Perel?

  Anyone who would be in that position and say this, it's a fair guess.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:48Esther Perel?

  It's not very scientific to, to, to guess that. But it is the thing that most of the time people will not recognize. Of course, that doesn't explain why she can't hear you.

• 32:00Esther Perel?

  We know there is more to the story. But these kind of responses will be very surprising to her.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:11Esther Perel?

  And sometimes, when people actually finally feel that someone sees their story, it's remarkable how they're accidentally able to see someone else's.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:25Esther Perel?

  Because instead of pulling on the rope, "Me too, me first, why not me, why you?"

• 32:32Esther Perel?

  But if actually you come all the way to the other side.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  It's funny that you say this because it's a concept I'm familiar with and it's one that...

• 32:45Esther Perel?

  How do you name it?

• 32:46Speaker 00

  My fiance and I call it the Chinese finger trap.

• 32:51Esther Perel?

  Explain it to me.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  And do you know about those?

• 32:54Esther Perel?

  No, I do.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  So it was this toy that we had, that people had when I was a kid and it was this like woven tube and you put two fingers in it and when you, and it was loose when you put your fingers and when you pull tight, you can't get your fingers out. And in order to get your fingers out, you have to relax and then they can come out. And we use that all the time as shorthand for when we know that we're in one of those situations where we're just pulling for the sake or for a good reason. Either way, it's not working. And letting go isn't giving up your point of view or your feelings.

• 33:36Esther Perel?

  Actually, letting go is freeing yourself.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:39Esther Perel?

  Getting the finger out.

• 33:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:41Esther Perel?

  It's the idea that in order to actually get out, I can't pull more, but I have to surrender some, loosen my finger in order to be able to pull it out. And that not holding tight to my need, to my yearning, to my... What would you say, to my what? My anger, my sadness?

• 34:08Speaker 00

  To my teenage self.

• 34:11Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 34:22Esther Perel?

  What would you tell her?

• 34:26Esther Perel?

  Would she feel abandoned if you changed course?

• 34:29Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so. I think, I would say that there are things that you can't comprehend

• 34:41Speaker 00

  that will change and that's not a bad thing, even though it feels like the worst thing in the world right now.

• 34:50Esther Perel?

  Be more specific.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  I never could have imagined that I would be happy and okay that my family is no longer a family of four. And so many good things have happened out of that. And it has taught me so much about my own resilience and about my own pitfalls. And it's all just part of the course. You can't have the up without the down.

• 35:30Esther Perel?

  What are some of the highlights of that post-adolescence learning?

• 35:38Speaker 00

  I think I was so angry with my mom right away that after that, I felt really afraid of anger. And it took me a while to find it and realize the utility of it and that ignoring it doesn't, doesn't make it go away. I do feel really

• 36:03Speaker 00

  to be the product of the home my parents created for us. And even though that home doesn't exist in the same way, I still have the foundation that they gave me. So maybe that, that I was able to learn that the foundation didn't go away in a way that I thought it had, that it felt like it had dropped out and that I was floating. But it, it hadn't and it's still there.

• 36:37Esther Perel?

  What do you think of the sentence?

• 36:41Esther Perel?

  Divorce is the end of a marriage

• 36:46Esther Perel?

  and the transformation of a family.

• 36:52Esther Perel?

  It's not the end of the family.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:56Esther Perel?

  They all come to your wedding, right?

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:59Esther Perel?

  Six of them. Four of them and two of you.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  That's hard for me

• 37:11Speaker 00

  to get on board with. I feel somehow attached to that narrative.

• 37:18Esther Perel?

  Of the four of you.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Of that family having ended.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  As opposed to having transformed.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  I have relationships with each of them and these, each of these configurations, but it doesn't feel like the four of us have

• 37:36Speaker 00

  anything other than uncomfortable

• 37:42Speaker 00

  other than something that's uncomfortable and, and we do that, you know, cordially.

• 37:48Esther Perel?

  So you try not to be too much the four of you?

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Or hardly ever the four of us.

• 37:54Esther Perel?

  But the, the six of you, yes?

• 37:57Speaker 00

  No. No, my parents don't really see each other.

• 38:01Esther Perel?

  And do you have a need to have them one time be able to gather around you?

• 38:09Speaker 00

  I did at a point think that that would feel healing. And it wasn't. But they're both walking me down the aisle. They will all be together and I'm really glad that they will all be there.

• 38:27Esther Perel?

  So they are rallying for you.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, they can be in the same room. They just choose not to be.

• 38:35Esther Perel?

  But they don't have to be in the same room. The goal is for them, for you to feel that they can wrap around you.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't know how it will feel in the moment, but they'll be standing under the hippo with us, so.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  We'll find out, I guess, if it will feel that way.

• 38:57Esther Perel?

  Do you plan to speak with them before?

• 39:00Speaker 00

  About this?

• 39:02Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 39:05Esther Perel?

  About what would feel, about, yeah, what would feel good on that particular day

• 39:12Esther Perel?

  that you want from them as your mothers,

• 39:17Esther Perel?

  not as the couple.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:19Esther Perel?

  The couple doesn't come into the same room too often. But the mothers have roles that they continue to play.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:29Esther Perel?

  To inhabit.

• 39:32Esther Perel?

  And it's very clear. And when people know to distinguish between

• 39:41Esther Perel?

  wives, parents, mothers, new partners, the roles dictate the behavior. The role is filled with a clear set of expectations.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  I think that I stopped feeling that maternal support from my mom when they split up.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  And I've tied that fairly or unfairly to feeling as if she wasn't taking care of me emotionally by recognizing my experience. Yeah.

• 40:23Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you something?

• 40:25Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 40:26Esther Perel?

  And it's a question I would not have asked you ten years ago. Okay, I think it's a question that is very developmental. Do you think that your mom experienced you as attacking her as a woman

• 40:44Esther Perel?

  and then resenting her as a mother?

• 40:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 40:51Esther Perel?

  Is there space there to separate between these two? Because sometimes people are doing things in their marriage. But that doesn't mean they become bad parents.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, it's felt so connected. And I guess I felt that their marriage was part of

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Of that, you know, in in the marriage ending, it was ending the safe space that they created as mothers.

• 41:30Esther Perel?

  Which is why I wouldn't ask you this question ten years ago.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's not, right. Yeah, it's not something I feel for my other mother.

• 41:38Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 41:42Esther Perel?

  Is there room for you to say, I wish on occasion I would feel the motherly quality from you again, I miss it.

• 41:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't know that that would be beneficial. I imagine that she would interpret that as.

• 42:04Esther Perel?

  If you say, I want more of something, she will instantly think that you're telling her that she hasn't done enough of that thing.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:11Esther Perel?

  That's what defensiveness usually does.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:15Esther Perel?

  So then one has to say, I love when you are motherly. And I can't get enough of it.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:25Esther Perel?

  I mean, there is a syntax that accompanies, how can people who hear instantly the veiled criticism that is behind every wish?

• 42:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  Or reverse, behind every wish, they think there is a veiled criticism.

• 42:46Esther Perel?

  But this is really developmental. Let's be very clear, I would not suggest that when you're nineteen, because you do need that.

• 42:55Esther Perel?

  The marriage is the family, but at this stage.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  You're right, it's not.

• 43:00Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  And I think that's why I said that I want, that it feels like letting go of that teenage part of me.

• 43:14Esther Perel?

  You know, I have an image. I think that you should have the six of you at a wedding and the teenage girl.

• 43:23Esther Perel?

  And you can represent her in any way you want. A bracelet on your hand.

• 43:30Esther Perel?

  A picture of her somewhere on the chupa. But she should really... She belongs there too. But somewhere, she needs to be profoundly acknowledged. Because she really confronted a lot.

• 43:46Esther Perel?

  She sits there today and says, "I learned a lot and there were many opportunities." And she's been kind of very mature about it. But it took a lot.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:00Esther Perel?

  And you will give yourself that recognition.

• 44:07Esther Perel?

  Meaning, you are the third mother

• 44:11Esther Perel?

  of that teenage girl who really sees what it took.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:18Esther Perel?

  If you said something to her today, what would it be?

• 44:24Speaker 00

  Um, I think I'd say that

• 44:28Speaker 00

  it's okay to be angry and that it makes sense that you're angry and hurt. And you'll find a way through that with or without her help. That she doesn't hold the key to finding closure to that chapter of my life.

• 44:54Esther Perel?

  Is there more?

• 44:58Speaker 00

  What's coming to mind is like,

• 45:02Speaker 00

  you can yell and scream as much as you want and it's not going to change anything.

• 45:10Esther Perel?

  But I'll hold it for us.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's not useful. It just means that maybe you're trying to change the wrong person.

• 45:26Esther Perel?

  Do you do nice things with her? Or does it feel to you every time you see her that you have to bring up the big issues?

• 45:37Speaker 00

  We don't bring it up every time, but things don't feel nice when we do them together.

• 45:43Esther Perel?

  They don't? Because there is tension between the two of you or because inside you're trying to hold it in?

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Because inside I'm conflicted with the outside, yeah.

• 45:59Esther Perel?

  Choose something that you say, "This I like to do with her."

• 46:06Esther Perel?

  What's one of those things that you enjoy together? Or that you turn to her for?

• 46:14Speaker 00

  She's very good at giving advice.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  And over the years, has been an incredibly non-judgmental

• 46:28Speaker 00

  advice giver and confidant. And I felt I could call her and I knew she wouldn't judge whatever I had, whatever was going on and would have an open mind about what to do.

• 46:44Esther Perel?

  And have you continued to go to her?

• 46:48Speaker 00

  No.

• 46:52Esther Perel?

  Is she involved in the wedding planning?

• 46:58Speaker 00

  She is.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Not in equal proportion.

• 47:05Speaker 00

  But she is involved, yeah.

• 47:11Esther Perel?

  I'm thinking, is there something concrete that you can ask from her?

• 47:20Esther Perel?

  And that you know she can deliver?

• 47:24Speaker 00

  She takes a lot of pride in her home and in hosting people. And so she's going to host a post-wedding gathering. And I know that she will do an amazing job at that.

• 47:41Esther Perel?

  Have you told her?

• 47:43Speaker 00

  No.

• 47:45Esther Perel?

  You may want to consider.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  It's a good idea.

• 47:50Esther Perel?

  And again, you're not saying that because you want to be nice to her and placate her or accommodate. You're saying it because when you reconnect with those aspects, it frees you.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I really appreciate that distinction.

• 48:08Esther Perel?

  Because sometimes it's seen as, you know, and I have to go and be nice, you know?

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Right, and that's how it's felt. I'm either being nice or I'm being honest.

• 48:17Esther Perel?

  Right, right. And here, you're being nice and honest.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  Is that true?

• 48:23Esther Perel?

  You can't say it on things that are not authentic.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:27Esther Perel?

  But yes, how can I be nice and honest?

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:32Esther Perel?

  When that gap gets smaller, I get more free.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:37Esther Perel?

  I feel more differentiated and I'm less trapped into wanting her to deliver something, which the less she delivers, and the worse I feel.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  I'm excited to try a few of those things out. And I feel hopeful in having a different, just something different to try.

• 49:05Esther Perel?

  Wonderful.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for your time.

• 49:07Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 49:16Speaker 06

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected].

• 49:37Speaker 06

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, and Kristin Muller. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.