Should I Have Another Baby?

When we become parents, many of us quietly promise ourselves that we won't be like our parents. We're going to do it differently. This week’s caller finds herself wrestling with a deeper question: Is her longing for another child born from genuine desire or from defiance? After a traumatic start to motherhood, she's now yearning for another child. But beneath that yearning lies the doubt: Am I doing this for me, or to prove that I’m not like her? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. My annual Sessions Live two-day live event is coming up next month! Through clinical, cultural, and creative perspectives, Sessions Live 2026: Cultivating Aliveness: Desire & Its Disruptions explores how relationships are evolving, and how we can translate those insights into practice. Whether you’re a practicing clinician or curious mind, you’ll discover fresh insights and takeaways to help you connect and thrive. Come see me live on May 15th and 16th in NYC! Podcast listeners get a special discount with the code FRIENDSLIVE to get $100 off an in-person ticket, or FRIENDSVIRTUAL for $50 off a virtual ticket at checkout on the Sessions Live ticket page. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Esther Perel?

  En cette session suivante, nous discutons l'assaut. Et je veux que vous le sachiez avant de l'écouter.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Salut Estelle. Je suis venue avec une question. J'ai eu un moment intéressant dans ma vie. Je suis mère de deux enfants beaux, deux enfants de trois ans et demi. Et je me trouve et je l'ai toujours trouvé, depuis longtemps. J'ai envie d'un autre enfant. Cette envie est compliquée par le fait que j'ai eu une très effrayante, intense et dangereuse grossesse avec les enfants. Une naissance très traumatique qui a laissé des cicatrices.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Et un période immédiate postpartum où mes enfants sont nés avec des problèmes de santé qui ont finalement été résolus. Mais il y a eu quelques mois au début où nous ne savions pas si l'un de mes enfants en particulier avait un impact sur leur durée de vie. Et il y avait beaucoup d'appointments de médecins et d'questions à trouver liées à ces problèmes de santé que les deux avaient. Et ma question est sur la façon dont je peux avancer avec une autre grossesse sans mettre un désir qui n'est pas juste pour un nouveau enfant, que j'aurai une expérience différente cette fois,

• 1:36Speaker 01

  que j'aurai une expérience plus positive, une expérience qui serait joyeuse de toute façon parce qu'il n'y avait vraiment pas de joie. Ou toute la joie était cachée par le peur dans ma grossesse, naissance et période postpartum. Et ne mettre trop ce désir sur une nouvelle vie parce que je ne veux pas avoir un enfant juste pour essayer d'avoir une expérience redémptante parce que ce n'est pas raison assez pour amener un sol dans ce monde et ce n'est pas juste pour cet enfant. Donc, comment je débrouille cette, je pense, l'espérance naturelle et désir de avoir une grossesse joyeuse, naissance ou période postpartum

• 2:17Speaker 01

  sans faire le désir si grand que si ça ne se passe pas, ça me crache. Particularly as I am somebody who experienced abuse and neglect in my childhood and youth and I've always wanted to be a mother and in some ways always wanted to create a family I never had and I feel so grateful that I get to do that in so many ways but my process of becoming a mother was just horrible, it was a nightmare. How can I reconcile all of these things together? And move forward because I do want another baby? I would love any help that you have or any thoughts about this question. Thank you so much.

• 3:10Speaker 02

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• 3:37Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 4:18Esther Perel?

  You're reliving it, huh?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Yes, sure. Don't often talk about it, so it's a new experience in some ways to hear all three things put together. I speak with certain friends about certain snippets of it, but I don't really ever talk about the whole journey that way, so.

• 4:45Esther Perel?

  And when you say the three parts, for you, they are?

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Pregnancy, the birth, and postpartum.

• 4:54Esther Perel?

  I had, in my head, childhood,

• 5:00Esther Perel?

  motherhood, and redemptive experience.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  That's very interesting.

• 5:10Esther Perel?

  That's where I went. It's not any more right than yours.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  It's interesting that it parallels.

• 5:20Esther Perel?

  Because those are the three things you don't often put together either.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Right, that's true.

• 5:27Esther Perel?

  Are you making this decision alone, or is there a partner in your life?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  I have a wonderful husband. I have a wonderful husband. And he's the father of my twins. And we are hoping for a third, but we're both very scared.

• 5:46Esther Perel?

  And he is part of the decision, or he says, "You decide"? Or you say, "I decide"?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  No, it's a decision we make together, because it's important to me. We make all our decisions together, and especially one like this.

• 6:03Esther Perel?

  Is it purely an emotional and an existential decision? Or is there a medical element involved there too?

• 6:11Speaker 01

  There's a medical element.

• 6:13Esther Perel?

  So you're taking a risk?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  It's hard to say. I was given some bad advice during my pregnancy, because the condition I had is not very well understood. And later on in the pregnancy, I got better advice. And that helped. And if we choose to have another baby, then we would be using that advice moving forward. A doctor I saw said I should refuse the medication they were prescribing me. And I was very scared. And so I listened to the doctor. And I kept landing in the hospital until a doctor asked me, why are you not taking the medication? And I told her and she said, you have to take this medication.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Uh, it will save your life. And when I started to take the medication, things got better. So, and it's also hard to say if the medical issue I had was related to the twin pregnancy or if it's something I would experience again. I had a condition called hyperemesis gravidarum. It's when you cannot stop vomiting. It's not morning sickness, it's important to say, but it's very dangerous because you, some people are vomiting up to a hundred times a day. You lose massive amounts of weight. Uh, it's very, very serious and it's very horrible.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Because it's not just the vomiting, but the twenty-four seven.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  I was, I couldn't eat, I couldn't drink water. I was bedridden for months, uh, couldn't work. It's, uh, really a devastating condition. And there's not a lot of information and people think you're pregnant, so you know, you're vomiting, that's just par for the course.

• 8:08Esther Perel?

  And part of the concern is that this may reoccur?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:14Esther Perel?

  Yeah, no, no, it's very serious. And then what happened after that? What was the postpartum piece about it or the birth piece? All connected or different things?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Um, a bit different. The birth was tricky. I was alone when my water broke. My husband was traveling for business. My sister was here, but it was during COVID, so she wasn't allowed to come to the hospital. When I was admitted, they put me in a room on a hospital gurney. And there was just a water basin and a window with bars on it. And they left me alone, uh, for about six hours.

• 8:49Esther Perel?

  Oh, my God.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  The only time, um.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 8:59Esther Perel?

  No, no, no, no, no. There's nothing to be sorry about.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  The only time somebody came in was, uh, when a midwife came and said that, uh, the woman next door was actively pushing and she wasn't even being as loud as I was and I needed to be more quiet. And then she left. And then they came back after about an hour and told me I was getting an epidural and that the anesthesiologist was here and I needed to get this epidural right now. And, um, after I got the epidural, my husband was allowed to come in.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  And, um, things were going well and then all of a sudden things changed and they said that I had a fever and they drew blood and said I had an infection. And the baby's heart rates weren't good and they needed to perform a C-section, which I thought, do whatever you need to do. I mean, take them, it's okay, via C-section. And, um, when they came out, I, uh, was overjoyed, um. But when I saw one of my children, I really just thought something's not right. She was so small. She was more of a fetus than a baby.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  And, um, they took us to the room and they looked at her and they said she's very small, but because of a few grams, she doesn't have to go to the NICU and I was shocked. I was so happy that she could stay with me and they could both stay with me.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  And when we went to leave the hospital, they performed, uh, some tests to make sure the babies were okay and they found that my son had a heart condition.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  And, um, they told us the name of it and I'd obviously never heard of it before and I just asked, is it fatal? That's all I wanted to know. Is it fatal?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  And the doctor very flippantly said, uh, I mean, not at the moment, but we'll have to see how it develops.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  And I really thought it was gonna pass out.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  And they told us we could leave the hospital, but we had to come back in a few days to see a cardiologist for him and they didn't give us any information. They told us not to Google it. But they said, um, here are some things to look out for that would be indications that your son is having a heart attack. Uh, if he cries a lot or if he sweats when he nurses and uh we're first time parents to twins. We were already so overwhelmed.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  And I I never knew. Because to top it all off, he had colic. So whenever he would cry, I never knew, is he crying because he's hungry or because he's tired or because?

• 11:47Esther Perel?

  He's dying.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  He's dying.

• 11:50Esther Perel?

  Yeah, oh la la.

• 11:54Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  And we were at different cardiologists. We were getting referred to different specialists every week, if I think and um everyone was giving us different information. So we'd get some good news and then we'd get some bad news a few days later and then some good news. And it wasn't until about three and a half months after the birth that a cardiologist said, we can pretty much definitively say that, yes, he has this defect that needs to be monitored every few months, but there's no reason to think that he won't live a

• 12:32Speaker 01

  a happy life.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  And that really was one of the best days of my life.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  But it was also after three and a half months of

• 12:46Speaker 01

  terror.

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  As you're telling me this

• 12:54Esther Perel?

  medical trauma. I kept thinking this is part of what you mean when you say, I don't want to put all of this

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:04Esther Perel?

  on another child and say, redeem me from this terrible experience.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:13Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you, have you done any EMDR?

• 13:17Speaker 01

  I haven't, but I'm very interested in it.

• 13:20Esther Perel?

  You have to go.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Okay, I will.

• 13:23Esther Perel?

  You really do, because it's so visceral on you. It's three and a half years later and it's like breathing and oozing out of you. It's vivid and you can soften this.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:39Esther Perel?

  And no talking, just as talking will be sufficient. Basically, there are experiences that are almost impossible to put into words. They are visceral, they are physical. Your whole body is relieving this as you're telling it to me. And something in the switching of the laterality between the two brain hemispheres unlocks this that is trapped in the amygdala. And basically, you speak while you're being stimulated in this bilateral way,

• 14:23Esther Perel?

  and it unlocks something. That's about as mysterious and unarticulate a way I can be about it. But I sometimes know things that are useful even when I don't fully understand how it works. But whoever is the practitioner will be able to give this to you in a much more articulate way than me.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:47Esther Perel?

  But don't stay like this.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  This is kind of the start, because for so long I just had to...

• 14:55Esther Perel?

  Attend to them, yes.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I had to get through it.

• 14:58Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  And it's really now starting to come up.

• 15:02Esther Perel?

  Because you were in doing, fixing, and saving mode. And so you didn't think much about you and what's happening to you, and all energy geared onto them, you know? But this wish of having another child is a form of thinking about you.

• 15:21Esther Perel?

  If you spend three and a half years thinking, what do they need, what do they need? When you say, "I want another child", you basically are allowing yourself for the first time to say, "What do I need?"

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 15:38Esther Perel?

  You know, what do we need, you and your husband? But basically, it's like, for the first time, you're switching the arrow from caring for them and attending to all their needs to saying, "And now me."

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:55Esther Perel?

  But then you're looking at this "and now me," and you're saying, "What does it represent? Am I putting myself at risk? Am I putting my kids at risk?

• 16:06Esther Perel?

  Am I putting a tremendous amount of weight and tacit expectations

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:13Esther Perel?

  onto this other child to give me the experience that I feel was robbed from me?"

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. And I don't want to do that.

• 16:22Esther Perel?

  "Am I being ungrateful for what I have? Why do I need more? We finally are coming to a place of some equilibrium."

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:30Esther Perel?

  "What the hell am I doing?"

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 16:33Esther Perel?

  "What is it about me that suddenly, you know, at the moment, peace can and balance and equilibrium can begin to settle, I suddenly want to create a whole other upheaval? Is this wishful thinking? Is this actually realistic? Some people will tell me, "Every pregnancy is different."

• 16:54Esther Perel?

  You know, it's not because it went totally south one time that the next time is the same. But I'm going to hear advice in every direction possible. Every person and their experience is going to tell me something different.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:09Esther Perel?

  But these are my questions. But these are also, I think, your questions of yourself.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 17:20Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us. And let's see where this goes.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalise coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbour, State Farm is there.

• 18:29Esther Perel?

  Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Starting a business requires you to be resourceful, and the more you flex that muscle, the more you start to recognise growth opportunities, like using Shopify to launch your business. And that's especially true if you launch with Black Friday approaching so you can take advantage of the extra online traffic. Shopify is the platform for a record-breaking, reliable holiday selling season for businesses at every stage. Their pre-built website themes and AI site builder make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional-looking website. And you don't even need to touch a line of code to do it. They also have a mobile app that lets you run your online store from anywhere.

• 19:12Esther Perel?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Esther to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Esther. Go to Shopify.com/Esther today to hear your first...

• 19:32Esther Perel?

  And I say, in between is also a period of you saying, "Okay, I can focus on myself a little bit again, and are there other ways I can do so?"

• 19:46Esther Perel?

  To start, so that I loosen the burden on this unborn child. I don't just feel like the only thing I can ask is the family I never had. I can have more wishes. This is not a bad one, but I can have other wishes. Right. And the only way to repair isn't just in this way. I may still end up in the same conclusion and say, "I'm going for this." And we will decide, and we will consult, and do all the things we need to do. But there needs to be, from what I'm imagining, a little bit of a space in between. Right, yes.

• 20:32Esther Perel?

  Maybe space for you and your husband? Yes, yeah.

• 20:37Esther Perel?

  Maybe space just for you? Maybe space for you and the people who are important in your life that are not your children, so that you recreate a more diversified focus? And you will find some of the answers to this question. You may also say, "We want a third child, but it doesn't have to come through me."

• 21:01Esther Perel?

  There's many, many ways to have another child in the family.

• 21:07Esther Perel?

  But right now, it's tight. It's... I had a shitty family. I dreamed about having the repair family. I thought I was on my way. It totally derailed. I feel robbed and pissed, but I couldn't even think about that because I had to show up. I'm totally spent. And now that I'm completely spent, I finally can think about having the child that was gonna give me the story that I didn't have at the beg-

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't, I don't want it to feel that way. And it feels like a real betrayal of the two children I have and the experience that we had. I don't, I don't want that to be-

• 21:50Esther Perel?

  But when you tell me the story as you do, it's, it, it has that element. I felt it too, you feel it too. We're both hearing the same thing.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:01Esther Perel?

  They're wonderful, they're wonderful, but they didn't give me X.

• 22:06Esther Perel?

  Not they didn't give me, the, the experience didn't give me.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  I think I would, it's interesting. When you said that, I thought, no, I didn't give me X. It, it feels like a failure on my part.

• 22:17Esther Perel?

  Okay, okay. Good correction, important correction.

• 22:22Esther Perel?

  But it's not almost, it almost feels like it's not clear if she's giving herself something or is she punishing herself?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 22:32Esther Perel?

  For not having succeeded at this thing. Something is harsh in there.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 22:39Esther Perel?

  You know?

• 22:39Speaker 01

  That's true, yes.

• 22:41Esther Perel?

  You have post-traumatic stress.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:45Esther Perel?

  You know, you have PTSD from this thing. It's not a word I throw lightly.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Okay, it's interesting, yeah.

• 22:53Esther Perel?

  Because when, and when you tell me this thing, you're not telling me because you remember it, you're reliving it. You can't even tell it to me in big brushstrokes. You give it to me blow by blow. And you're going from one room to another and from one image that is carved in your memory and in your body to another.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  That wasn't intentional, it just-

• 23:18Esther Perel?

  No, that's what PTSD does.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:22Esther Perel?

  That's, no, no, absolutely not. I know that. It's like every detail matters in the story.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:31Esther Perel?

  That is, to me, one feature. There are many features to P T S D, but this is one where you say, wow. It's like, that's it, you're in for the ride. And you're gonna get the story as it unfolded. Because she's reliving it, moment by moment. And that tells me, we need some help here, first.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Right, that's, I should say that this idea of having another child is not something we would do for at least another two years. I mean, this is something that's really, but I want to start now. I can feel that it's coming now and I, I've noticed it, that I want, I don't wanna walk around with all of this pain. And I want to give myself, to give my husband and me the room, without a ticking clock on this, to work through it. And how can we work through that?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  When it just feels like it, ah. I just, I feel a lot of, ah, so a lot of guilt and a lot of shame about it. Because I feel like, I do feel ungrateful. I have two healthy children and we made it through it. Ah, I had a doctor say to me at one point during the pregnancy, other women would kill for your problems.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  And that's made it really hard to start to work through it because whatever anything would come up while I was going through it, other than having to, for the reasons of just having to function and get through. I just had that refrain in my head, other women would kill for your problems, other women would kill for your problems.

• 25:17Esther Perel?

  Wow, and how does, where is your husband at with this here? Cause he, he lived it with you, you know?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yes, um, he's a lot better at setting boundaries than I am, and he is.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  He is scared for me, I think primarily what it could do to my health. I think he, well, I don't think, I know he's worried that I have a tendency when I want something. And I've decided I really want something not to stop.

• 25:46Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  And that concerns him, understandably, it concerns me too. And I think he, he has said that he could absolutely imagine a third and, and before we had the twins, we had talked about three children, four children, we wanted a big family. So I think the wish is there, but he also has real fear about what it could mean. And I think we would have to have a really very honest conversation about what are our boundaries? At what point do we make certain choices? What choices are they? What can we live with? What can we not live with? I wouldn't say that I was cavalier at the pregnancy with my

• 26:31Speaker 01

  life, but I was certainly convinced that I could get through this if I just buckle down and got through it. But now we have two children and they need their mother and that's a different situation. It probably shouldn't be because my life is valuable, whether we have kids or not, but it.

• 26:50Esther Perel?

  If you allow me.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 26:52Esther Perel?

  I would like to change something in how you described him.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 26:58Esther Perel?

  When you say he's better with boundaries than me. I would say he seems to be better at protecting you

• 27:08Esther Perel?

  than you know to protect yourself.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Well, Esther, yeah, that's

• 27:14Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Accurate, yeah, it's correct.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:18Esther Perel?

  You think, because you had to fight through some pretty bad stuff.

• 27:25Esther Perel?

  That you can muscle through anything.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yes. And not just from the pregnancy, but from my life before.

• 27:33Esther Perel?

  Yes, I was talking about your life before.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 27:36Esther Perel?

  I don't know anything about it, but

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Esther Perel?

  it doesn't look like it was charming.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:45Esther Perel?

  And so, there are two stances in your life. You're either strong and victorious, or you're weak and you get trampled on.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, that's correct, yeah.

• 28:02Esther Perel?

  What do I need to know about this? For our conversation? I'm aware that we're only meeting once and not everything needs and can be told.

• 28:15Esther Perel?

  But I have a feeling that that stuff is part of

• 28:19Esther Perel?

  why the wish to have another child, why the wish to show that you really can, to defy, there's a defiance in this.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, for sure.

• 28:29Esther Perel?

  There's a desire and there's a defiance.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that, but it's absolutely true, yeah. Yeah. I think the best example of that would be, at some point in my life, there was somebody in my life who was hitting me pretty viciously, pretty regularly.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  And it came to a point where I thought, my life is really in danger here because this person is using me as a stress release valve. It's not based on any behavior. There's no rivalries and it's, it's, there's an enjoyment to it.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  And I thought, I have to, I have to stand up for myself and I have to think of something to say because I'm not going to be able to do it in the moment.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna say it the next time it starts and I went to this person and when they started and I said, the next time you hit me, I will hit you back. And this person never hit me again.

• 29:31Esther Perel?

  How old?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Uh, sixteen. And that was really pivotal in my life because I thought sometimes you have to

• 29:41Speaker 01

  gather a crazy amount of resources and strength and courage and just bust through the wall and do the thing, say the thing that you don't think you can do. And you have to get

• 29:56Speaker 01

  the other person to back off.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  And you can do it, but you have to believe you can do it and you have to do it with a resolve. Or you're going to be in danger.

• 30:13Esther Perel?

  You see her?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:16Esther Perel?

  Hmm, you just saw her as you were talking?

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm proud of her.

• 30:24Esther Perel?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  And I remember I thought, make yourself as big as you can before you know, make yourself get up on your toes. And it just breaks my heart to think about a child thinking about how do I make myself physically intimidating enough to get somebody to stop hitting me.

• 30:46Esther Perel?

  Who was it?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  But I'm proud of her. Pardon?

• 30:48Esther Perel?

  Who was it?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  It was my mother.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  And maybe there's a part of me that wants to prove that I'm a better mother than she was.

• 31:07Esther Perel?

  That's why I asked you who it was.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  But I can, not only will I not hurt my children, but I will endure hurt for my children. The opposite of her in that way, even though I know that she's a complex person. She wasn't all horrible. She had her own trauma and I've done a lot of work and she's done a lot of work in the meantime, but

• 31:36Speaker 01

  in this way, you know, some people say they understand their parents more. Once they become parents, I understand my parents less.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  And I told her what time I don't even.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Honestly, I don't blame you even for hitting me once. I blame you for hitting me more than once.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  I blame you for not realizing I need help and this could never happen again or something, anything.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  I don't have her life and I don't have her limitations.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  And at the same time, I can't imagine harming one of my children intentionally. I can't imagine saying the things or doing the things

• 32:22Speaker 01

  that were done to me or said to me. I know that she carries her own trauma that's unresolved and I know how that cycle perpetuates. It's what I mean, years before I even got pregnant, I went to therapy and worked with a therapist for two and a half years on my childhood and this trauma because I did not want to leave this unresolved before I had children of my own.

• 32:58Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 33:13Speaker 02

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• 33:41Speaker 03

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• 34:09Speaker 04

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• 34:40Esther Perel?

  We started this track because I said, it's not that your husband is more boundaried, it's that he is more protective of you than you sometimes know to be. And you said, when my mother would hit me, and not just because she was stressed, but because it felt sadistic. That's what I understood was inside your sentence. I, one day, pumped up my chest, made myself bigger than I ever was, more fearless than I ever was,

• 35:25Esther Perel?

  and basically stood up to her and said, "You hit me once more, I hit you back." And this illusion of power...

• 35:37Esther Perel?

  Saved me.

• 35:41Esther Perel?

  But I carry this illusion of power inside of me.

• 35:46Esther Perel?

  Oh, yes.

• 35:48Esther Perel?

  And I live with this sense that I can handle anything. And I can defy the giants. Yes. Or the forces of evil, or whatever. Therefore, I need really to ground myself in reality when I say I want another child. Yeah. Because I can't make that decision from a position of illusion of power. I can talk my way into terrible situations and save my skin. Yes. This is a different story. And I have two little schmerfs who I need to protect.

• 36:33Esther Perel?

  Yes. And I may be protecting them because I don't hate and all of that. But I also need to protect them by not embarking on something. Yes. Very true, yeah. So it's this criteria. You have time, you're not in a rush. But it's on your mind. And when something is on your mind, you dig. You dig in. Yes. It's like it becomes this idée fixe. And now you're gonna, by hook and by crook, you're gonna find a way to make this possible. You're gonna hear what you want, you're gonna filter what you don't want. You're gonna create the narrative that sustains it.

• 37:17Esther Perel?

  You're gonna take your power and convince your husband. You're gonna stand up to all the people who say nay. You're gonna reinforce all the people who say yea.

• 37:29Esther Perel?

  It's a whole mise en scène, you know, it's an entire elaboration of how we get ourselves to a place like this. This is what, when people say, "How did you think?" Because it's a slow process of putting all the pieces.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:46Esther Perel?

  And what would happen if you lay flat for almost a year? Do you, can you do that with your two little ones? It's not just the problems of birth, it's the whole thing. So, you're right. What are the creative ways we can think about having many children? I mean, how do we, it may not be the story we originally imagined, but if we want more children, more children we can have.

• 38:15Esther Perel?

  But I do, as you said, you know, so much of, at the heart of this whole conversation is outdoing my mom.

• 38:26Esther Perel?

  Proving to myself that I'm really different, that I'm really better.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:31Esther Perel?

  So there is an act of defiance.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  And that's also not, I don't, it's, I don't want to have a child from a place of defiance. It's not,

• 38:43Speaker 01

  it's not a good thing. But I feel a lot of frustration that it's yet another thing that I

• 38:54Speaker 01

  feel that I want for myself, that I have to question because I don't know how long the shadow is that she's cast. Do I do what I do because I want to do it? Or do I want to do it because I want to?

• 39:10Esther Perel?

  Prove to her, or prove to myself, yes. But you have that with other things too, I imagine, right? Or is that primarily?

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:20Esther Perel?

  And how do you deal with it in other situations? It's a great question. Do I do what I do because I really want it? Or do I want it because I need to prove to myself that I'm not like her?

• 39:37Esther Perel?

  The core of differentiation lies in that question.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  It's tricky. The way that I approach things is if I have a decision to make,

• 39:51Speaker 01

  because we are in contact. I don't tell her about it until I've made the decision because I don't want her input and I don't want to be thinking about what her input might be. And I make a decision and then I I tell her what the decision is. And I try and think about, I'm I'm trying more and more because I do have a wonderful husband who asks me these questions. There's a saying in our language, not everything that you can do, you must do.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  And it's okay to know that you could do something, but still not do it.

• 40:30Esther Perel?

  And what language is that?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  That's German.

• 40:32Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  My husband, we talk sometimes about the way we make decisions and how they're different. And we'll be at the starting line and I'll look to the castle and he'll look to the castle and then he'll look at what's between him and the castle and he'll make the decision based on that, whether he wants to get to the castle. And I look at the castle and I don't care about what's in between the castle and me. I just get there and he tries to encourage me to think about what would it entail? Is that something you really want or is it something you're trying to prove?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  And I've walked away from things more recently in my life, like work things. And I've been listening to that voice more saying, it's just too much, it's okay, it's not a feeling, it's just too much. Und nicht alles was kann, muss.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  I think I've just also, I've been worried about, um. I wanna make sure that other people know that I'm not my mother as well. And maybe in some ways, I.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  I'm trying to.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Prove that her influence is not something that I.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Suffer under. It's, it's another piece of defiance of, you know, I can live this life that I have and. Do these things and. I'm not going to let that hold me back.

• 41:59Esther Perel?

  One of the ways. That we express our difference from our parents, in this case from your mom. Is not in huge decisions.

• 42:13Esther Perel?

  It's in the everyday.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:19Esther Perel?

  It's actually in the details. But as you were talking, because we're arriving to the end of our conversation, I thought it would be very interesting. For your husband to listen to this conversation.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:34Esther Perel?

  And then for us to have a conversation together.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I agree. That would be very interesting.

• 42:43Esther Perel?

  If he's open to it and if you're open to it.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Of course, of course, of course.

• 42:47Esther Perel?

  You know.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Incredibly amazing.

• 42:51Esther Perel?

  But there's a sequence here, right? One piece is you go and you do some EMDR. And two is you actually take some time to explore the space between you and the castle.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Okay, I will.

• 43:08Esther Perel?

  And three is you separate between desire and defiance. That's your question. Do I want it because it's me? Or do I want it because I'm proving something? As in how much influence does she have over my life? That she doesn't even know she has.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:31Esther Perel?

  I may not call her when I have to make a decision, but that's not because of her, that's because of what she represents inside of me.

• 43:39Esther Perel?

  And I spend a lot of time, as you say, working on this in therapy. But things come back, and you're right, things come back when you become a parent and you start to see yourself in the age of your children.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:58Esther Perel?

  Because it's one thing when you say I was four years old, it's another thing when you see the four-year-old or the three-and-a-half-year-old.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:05Esther Perel?

  And I say, oh, wow, I was so young, I was so little, and this is what happened, and that is what happened.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Right, I think about that a lot. I feel such love for my children at this age that I just, it helps me feel love for myself at that age, to be honest.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  And I think it's a good sign that I'm asking this question and that I, I'm thinking about it and not just doing it and, and running straight ahead.

• 44:34Esther Perel?

  And the next thing is this idea that your pregnancy and your birth was somehow a failure.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:43Esther Perel?

  I wish we had more time together, but that too is like, oh, if we start from there, it gets very complicated to really know whether you want it, whether it's possible, and whether it should.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:01Esther Perel?

  Not everything that is possible must be.

• 45:08Esther Perel?

  Thank you for allowing me to meet you.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness, it's a great privilege for me.

• 45:15Esther Perel?

  Okay, thank you.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for this session with Esther. Thank you.

• 45:30Speaker 05

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, could be answered in a forty or fifty-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected].

• 45:52Speaker 05

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.