Medieval Europe's Biggest Sex Scandal

This is the wild story of a 12th century French philosopher, Abelard, who fell in love with his student, Heloise. There are a lot of problematic issues going on. Not least their age gap, the resulting power dynamic, and, oh yes—Abelard was castrated. So why does this love story endure? Joining Kate today is the fantastic Dr Eleanor Janega, historian, author and co-host of our sister podcast Gone Medieval. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards. Click to place your vote on the Spotify mobile app: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa This episode was edited by Natasha Hughes. The producer was Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:35Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely Betwixters, it's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back to Betwix the Sheets. Hello, how fabulous it is to see you once again, you little historical pervert. Yeah, I know, I know what you really are. I know why you're here. It's why I'm here as well. But before we can go any further together, I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast book about adults, other adults, about adult things and adults away, covering a range of subjects, news, being an adult too. Do you feel safer? I certainly feel safer. Right, let's crack on.

• 1:03Kate Lister?

  Well, we are in a convent, as it happens, and so far, nobody on the Betwix team has burst into flames, which is all for the good. Now, the women in here seem so calm and so serene in their situations, quietly praying, doing a little bit of sewing. But what's that sound that I can hear? That is a quill really going at it. That is Eloise, and she is writing again. What is she writing? Things that nuns should not be writing. She says, "Even during the celebration of the Mass, when our prayers should be pure, lewd visions of those pleasures take such hold upon my unhappy soul, I should be groaning over the sins I have committed, but I can only sigh for what I've lost." Eloise? Eloise?

• 1:48Kate Lister?

  If I had pills, I would clutch them. I'm not sure that you should be thinking about that in church.

• 2:14Kate Lister?

  Well, hello and welcome back to Betwix the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister.

• 2:21Kate Lister?

  In the 12th century, a 40-year-old Catholic professor has an affair with his student. That is not good, that is not good, but he did pay a terrible price for doing so. So how has that rather gruesome story gone down as one of the greatest love stories in history? Hmm? Well, today, I'm joined by the one and only Dr. Eleanor Janiger to talk about Eloise and Abelard, twin flames whose loves burned their lives to the ground, ending up in a monastery and in a nunnery, respectively. Are you ready to do it? Let's do this.

• 3:02Kate Lister?

  Well, hello, Eleanor Janiger. Thank you so much for dropping by our new studio. How the hell are you?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm great. I am considering moving in here because the aircon's quite good in it.

• 3:13Kate Lister?

  The aircon is fabulous. And the decor is pretty damn good as well. I like my banana.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that is pretty good. Yeah, damn, all right.

• 3:22Kate Lister?

  But we're not here to talk about bananas. We are here to talk about, well, slightly talk about bananas.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Ayo.

• 3:29Kate Lister?

  Ayo.

• 3:32Kate Lister?

  We're here to talk about one of the greatest love stories ever, or at least that's often how it's pitched. The Victorians went nuts for this, didn't they? Eloise and Abelard.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Oh, man, two of the best to ever do it.

• 3:43Kate Lister?

  Do you think?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Okay, listen, at least Eloise, all right. Peter Abelard is a complex guy, but Eloise is like one of my favorite people.

• 3:52Kate Lister?

  Okay, I'll tread gently.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Because she is so smart, like she's an absolute genius. And also, she's a weird little guy, which is kind of like what my favorite thing for a medieval person to be is, because she's really stubborn and she wants things a particular way. She is genuinely an iconoclast in that she pushes back against expectations of the period. I mean, slightly for a trash man, yes.

• 4:17Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like you're, like, a girl can like a trash man as a treat. Listen.

• 4:22Kate Lister?

  I don't think he's gonna come up very well.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Listen, okay, yeah. I used to say that a good way to think about Peter Abelard is that he's kind of like the Kanye West of the medieval period.

• 4:35Kate Lister?

  Oh, oh, no. He was going on social media and being anti-Semitic.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, no. See, that was before.

• 4:41Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  I like to pretend in my head that Kanye West died in a car crash, right? And I'm just like, we just don't pretend now. But, you know, it used to be with things like, you know, when he would like jump on stage and be like, oh, but Beyonce made the best music video of all time, where it was like, well, you're not wrong, but you're just a dick.

• 5:00Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  And that's, that's the way that you need to think about Peter Abelard. He's usually not wrong, but he's kind of a dick.

• 5:06Kate Lister?

  He is being a prick about it.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  But he's being a prick. And so it, like, this is incredibly important. So like, here we go. Let's, let's set the scene.

• 5:14Kate Lister?

  Yeah, please do. Introduce our cast of characters. Who are Eloise and Abelard?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  We're in the 12th century Renaissance, babe. Okay, like, it's all happening. It's all happening. We are inventing the university, girl.

• 5:25Kate Lister?

  Ooh.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Which is like a fantastic thing to do. We are into philosophy, like, you know, we need to understand that, like, theologians and philosophers at this point in time, they're like the rock stars of the medieval period. And it's kind of like how we treat, like astrophysicists now. You know how, like, everybody knows who Neil deGrasse Tyson is, you know, stuff like that, where we're like, wow, big, big, cool ideas. That's what theologians are like. So 12th century Renaissance.

• 5:53Kate Lister?

  Where are we, by the way?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Paris.

• 5:55Kate Lister?

  Ooh, nice.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Decore, you know? So here we are, and this is where we have the second university ever founded. So the first university in Europe is founded in Bologna as a result of students kind of banding together and they're saying, we want a university. Second one is founded in Paris as a result of the church who's like, ooh.

• 6:15Kate Lister?

  We want one too.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  We want one too, like, we want one that we have a little bit more control over. And so a university then doesn't look like a university now in that it's more of a concept, right? It's like you have a bunch of teachers there and you work in different churches. And key to this is that everyone who is attending the university or who teaches in a university is a cleric. You have to be a member of the church.

• 6:38Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's a twist.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so in order to do this, you can't just be like a guy off the street. You have to be like a member of the order, right?

• 6:47Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  And, and they are teaching two things. So the first one, if you want to take your, your equivalent of a BA, you are learning and teaching the trivium, and that's grammar, logic, and rhetoric. Okay, so.

• 6:59Kate Lister?

  It's a very limited curriculum.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so basically what it means is you're doing the classics. So grammar is like, you're gonna learn Latin real good.

• 7:07Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  You know? And logic, you're going to learn philosophy, so you're going to be studying Aristotle, you're going to be studying Plato, you're gonna be studying a lot of Cicero. And then rhetoric, they scream at each other.

• 7:18Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's an interesting addition. Okay, like a debate club.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so it's all just debate, debate, debate.

• 7:23Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  And then if, once you finish that, you move on to the quadrivium, and that is music, arithmetic, geometry, and astronomy.

• 7:32Kate Lister?

  I'm falling down already. I'm terrible at maths.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Listen, at least it's like, you would figure it out.

• 7:37Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  I promise. And then if you do that, then you're a doctor.

• 7:40Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Fantastic. And that's where the term doctor is. You and I both know, people with PhDs are the real doctors. We only started calling medical professionals doctors in the 19th century because we were being nice to them because they felt a little left out. Okay, and so Peter Abelard is one of these guys, right?

• 7:54Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  The thing about Peter Abelard also is he's noted, you know, the bit about, the bit about the arguing with each other? I'm not joking. Peter Abelard will find out where you are giving a lecture and he'll come in and he'll be like, you're an idiot, Kate, it's not gonna be like that at all. No, like, everybody look at me, it's me, Peter Abelard. And he kicks the doors in and he brings all his students in, they're like, break it off, Peter, let him know. He's got like seven hype men with him at all time.

• 8:21Kate Lister?

  He's the original, it's not a question, it's more of a comment guy.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he will come in and yell. And like, by his own admission, he writes this down in his autobiography. Okay.

• 8:29Kate Lister?

  Is he proud of this?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  He's super proud of it. He's like, I, it was so cool when I did this. And you're like, Peter, anyway, so foreshadowing, right?

• 8:37Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  He then, at a point in time, decides, hey ho, that he decides that he wants to have like a love affair.

• 8:45Kate Lister?

  Just decides?

• 8:46Speaker 01

  He decides this, he writes this out, and so he writes this autobiography, which is called The Historia Calamitatum, or like the, the history of my calamities, right?

• 8:55Kate Lister?

  Oh, Peter.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Because it's, it's.

• 8:57Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  It's really funny.

• 8:59Kate Lister?

  I mean, that's something's happened, hasn't it? The end of your life and your autobiography is called The History of My Calamities.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  I mean, like, he's so self-serving, but anyway, he, he straight up decides, I want to find a chick to bang.

• 9:11Kate Lister?

  So he's a virgin at this point?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Hmm, probably, yeah, because he's supposed to be, because he's like a member of the church.

• 9:16Kate Lister?

  Oh, yes, of course.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Right, he's a member of the church. That is so important. He's not supposed to be banging chicks.

• 9:20Kate Lister?

  I forgot that bit.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:22Kate Lister?

  Yes, you did say.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  And he then decides that he is going to find someone to sleep with, and his mind settles on Eloise of Montrouille. Okay.

• 9:32Kate Lister?

  All right.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Eloise, hmm, we don't exactly know how old she is. She's maybe like 16, possibly like 18. But she has a reputation in Paris because she is incredibly smart and apparently a drop-dead gorgeous babe.

• 9:49Kate Lister?

  Who is she, apart from being smart and drop-dead gorgeous?

• 9:52Speaker 01

  So she is from a noble family in Montrouille, but she is under the care of her uncle in Paris because she is like crème de la crème. They're like, this girl is gonna be. A shining star. We are gonna get her a really, really good marriage and we're gonna educate her right up, right? So she's with her uncle to receive the best education that one can and kind of like debut onto the scene and make an excellent marriage for herself because that's what happens for noble young ladies in, in the medieval period. So here we go. Her uncle is like, well, we've got to find a good tutor for her and Peter Abelard is like, hello.

• 10:30Kate Lister?

  Oh, no.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  And it's intentional.

• 10:33Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Which is even grosser. Yeah, it's, it's not great. It's not great. So he says that he's like, he introduces himself and says, heard you're looking for a tutor and everyone agrees I am the best around. And Eloise's uncle is like, yeah, I heard that that is true. So in he goes.

• 10:52Kate Lister?

  Priest? What could go wrong?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  So much, right? Uh, so in they go and pretty much immediately the love affair starts. Okay. And so here's the thing, uh, as we would say in Czech, toje problematicy, right? Like it's a very problematic thing in that, you know, Abelard, he's probably around 37 at the time. We don't exactly, it's one of these things in the medieval period. We don't know how old Eloise is.

• 11:19Kate Lister?

  So he's, but he is older and she's younger.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  And she is younger and also like, obviously there is the fact that he is literally her teacher. So it's like.

• 11:27Kate Lister?

  And he's a priest.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  So it's like, come on.

• 11:29Kate Lister?

  And he's her teacher and she's supposed to be like getting ready for the marriage market and he knows that.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  And he knows that.

• 11:35Kate Lister?

  As crappy as that system is, that's the deal is she's gonna be married off.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And.

• 11:41Kate Lister?

  And in he comes.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  And, and he comes, right? And they know, they know this is bad, right? Now, the way Eloise writes about this, Eloise is like, yeah, I really loved him. Everything was fantastic, blah, blah, blah. But still, you know, it, it is difficult for us to get our heads around now. Let's just say that. And they know that it's bad. Abelard writes about this and he says, you know, we are supposed to be, uh, we are supposed to be like a reading and learning. But he'll say, my, our hands strayed more from the parchment and on to each other. And this is like a really visceral thing to say, you know, because like the parchment, the books that they're made out of are made of animal skin. And so it's like, that's like quite a sexy thing to write, you know, because they're not, they're not like, they're not touching that skin. They're touching this skin, you know? And basically he's like, we

• 12:27Speaker 01

  were doing it always, like a banging morning till night. And there's also like this weird kink thing that they do too, where it's like, in order to, um, not raise suspicion, he hits her in front of other people a lot. And, but they both write about it.

• 12:46Kate Lister?

  I have read that actually. He used to beat her. Yes.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they, and they write about it and it's like, quite like, ooh, uh, but it's like the blows have felt as soft as any kisses and things like that. And it is really like, listen, I'm not here to kink shame.

• 13:00Kate Lister?

  I bet that didn't raise any suspicion.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  And it, it's weird though, because it's like, teachers did hit kids a lot.

• 13:06Kate Lister?

  Not like that, I don't think.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Not, not like that.

• 13:10Kate Lister?

  Hopefully, right?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  At the time, it is like one of those things where it's just sort of like understood that they do be hitting, which is sort of like, okay, okay? Question mark. You know, Victorians do it too. It's, it is only until very recently that we stopped hitting children.

• 13:23Kate Lister?

  But also, didn't you say that like, she's like 16, 18? She's got a child. She's a complete hottie and he's giving her a spanking?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, like, who even?

• 13:31Kate Lister?

  And everyone was like, well, he is a firm disciplinarian.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  They're like, wow, that he's so professional.

• 13:37Kate Lister?

  He's really serious about mathematics and Peter.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  So like, this is all well and good. Like this is, I mean, in theory, apparently everyone is like, this is fine. I don't see any problems with this at all.

• 13:50Kate Lister?

  At all.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Until Eloise falls pregnant.

• 13:52Kate Lister?

  Shit. Well, that was, that was inevitable, wasn't it? I guess.

• 14:00Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Eleanor after this short break.

• 14:07Kate Lister?

  In case you weren't aware, World Mental Health Day takes place in October. And I don't know about you, but I'm taking this as a reminder to practice some proper self-care. Saying no to plans I don't wanna go to guilt-free snacking and Halloween movie marathons. It's also the perfect time to check in with yourself and your mental health. For many, it can mean taking that step and speaking to a professional who can help and guide you through any difficulties you're having. But often when you try to do that, it's still way harder than it should be. A lot of online therapy platforms don't accept insurance at all, which means even during a month focused on mental health, you're stuck paying out of pocket or signing

• 14:49Kate Lister?

  up for an expensive monthly subscription. This is where Ruler comes in. They partner with over 120 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Because the whole point of World Mental Health Day is making sure people actually get help, not just think about it. And Ruler sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure your care is actually helping you move forward. With World Mental Health Day this October, it's a good reminder that taking care of your mental health can start with one step. Visit ruler.com/shets to get started. That's R U L A dot com slash S H E E T S. You

• 15:34Kate Lister?

  deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.

• 15:40Kate Lister?

  Hello, betwixters. I am jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right. It took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there. And the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  And now the thing that would happen ordinarily in the circumstances, okay, well, you need to get married.

• 16:30Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Eloise says no.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Really interesting. Eloise says no because if they get married, he has to stop working at the university.

• 16:41Kate Lister?

  Oh, Eloise.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Because if they get married, then it's like, he's got no career because he has to be a member of the clergy in order to do his little shouty shouty thing.

• 16:53Kate Lister?

  Did he offer to marry her?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  He did.

• 16:55Kate Lister?

  So it's out now? The affair's out?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  The affair's out. And he's like, look, I guess I'll marry her or whatever. Yeah, fair enough. You, you found us out. I don't know what they thought was gonna happen, but you know, there, there it is. And, um, he says, okay, yeah, I'll do it. But Eloise says no. But Eloise's uncle didn't really get the memo on this one.

• 17:15Kate Lister?

  What's the uncle's name, by the way?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Fulbert. So, oh, great. Bring it back.

• 17:20Kate Lister?

  That is, I've never met a Fulbert.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Name your child Fulbert.

• 17:23Kate Lister?

  No.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, I don't know.

• 17:25Kate Lister?

  Maybe get away with Bert for short. Right.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, Bert, what birdie when he was a kid. That'd be kinda cute. Anyway.

• 17:31Kate Lister?

  Well, Fulbert, I, I don't know how he's feeling about his niece being knocked up and unmarried.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  So he's pretty upset, you know? And like, obviously, because here's his ward. He was trying to do everything right for her. He has this very specific thing that he was attempting to do.

• 17:44Kate Lister?

  Her education is clearly suffering.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And she's been like scurried off the minute she, they found out she was pregnant. They're like, you are off to hang out in a nunnery while we figure out what is going on. And, um, so she's saying no. And Abelard is like, come on, girl. Like, we're gonna have to figure something out about this.

• 18:03Kate Lister?

  So he's, he's trying to marry her then?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  He's sort of trying to marry her. She's saying, no, no, no. Fulbert doesn't understand this.

• 18:09Kate Lister?

  Think of your career.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  And then Fulbert gets a bit annoyed with everything that's going on. And Fulbert,

• 18:17Speaker 01

  real medieval moment, Fulbert orders that Abelard to be castrated.

• 18:21Kate Lister?

  Oh dear. Oh, dearie, dear.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Straight in there.

• 18:26Kate Lister?

  Orders? Who?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  You know, he's just ordinary, your ordinary gang of guys who will castrate your niece's boyfriend.

• 18:36Kate Lister?

  Oh, those guys?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, he's hired goons.

• 18:39Kate Lister?

  Hired goons.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Hired goons. So he's got these hired goons. And so I love the sort of the Historia Colomitatum because they basically like bust into Abelard's apartment in the middle of the night, straight off with that dick. Yeet the dick. Dick's out the window. I don't know what they did with the dick. Okay. But dick is gone.

• 18:57Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  R I P.

• 18:58Kate Lister?

  Do we, like, not to get too graphic, but like, what are we talking here? Because castration can mean like a few things. Was like everything gone or is it just?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  I know at least the D is gone. I don't know if they leave him with the balls.

• 19:10Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Shaft out of here.

• 19:12Kate Lister?

  Okay, okay. It's just, it's just. Ten doll time.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  And, uh, they like do, you know, a, a pretty good job at this. It's like, again, these hired goons really know how to castrate.

• 19:21Kate Lister?

  I'm surprised she didn't like bleed out.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, so it's like they got, they got it all torsioned off. It's all fine. Right? Uh, but so, so.

• 19:27Kate Lister?

  Oh, wow. They really knew what they were doing.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  And they want him to survive. Right? It's like, this is, this is supposed to intentionally be like this humiliation. And so, uh, so Abelard's got no D now.

• 19:38Kate Lister?

  Why did Fulbert do this?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Well, a hundred percent, it's like making a statement about what he's done. Right? It's like, oh, you go around knocking girls up, is it?

• 19:48Kate Lister?

  So he thought that Peter Abelard wasn't gonna marry?

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, Eloise.

• 19:52Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay. Okay. So this is like a hard day disgrace.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  He feels as though Abelard is the one dragging his feet. Whereas in the letters that Eloise is writing, which has survived us, we understand that it's actually Eloise who's dragging her feet.

• 20:05Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Um, and listen, it kind of doesn't matter as far as Fulbert is concerned because he's like.

• 20:11Kate Lister?

  You brought shame upon our house.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like it, you should have sorted this out by now. Like a control Eloise a little better too, I think, which, which is like, hmm, interesting. Uh, so D is gone.

• 20:22Kate Lister?

  Oh, dear.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Um, Abelard writes in the Historia Colomitatum, according to him, people are just like out in the streets of Paris, rending their garden. They're weeping. They're like, Abelard's dick? Why? I loved it so much. We all loved it. Oh, oh, why? And.

• 20:42Kate Lister?

  Have you heard? The most tragic news. Are you sitting down?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I know. And I'm, and apparently no, and no one is laughing.

• 20:49Kate Lister?

  Oh, right.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Like at all. Anyway, so.

• 20:52Kate Lister?

  And we're definitely not laughing about it. That, I mean, like all joking aside, that is a really brutal crime.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And like, here's the thing about it though, is it's like, so now you know that he, everybody knows he, he's castrated. And so he's like this kind of. Imperfect man, like castration is a form of punishment that can be meted out usually in more legal senses, but like also let's be clear, it's the Middle Ages, there's no such thing as the cops.

• 21:18Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Right, like there's no police.

• 21:20Kate Lister?

  Apparently there's the castration goons.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  There is the castration goons if you're wealthy, because like this is the thing is that the higher echelons of society can sort of do what they want.

• 21:29Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And ordinarily, in situations like this, you know, some light reciprocity might be expected, but because Abelard is clearly in the wrong and he's a member of the church, what's the church gonna do? The most the church could do in response is perhaps excommunicate you, but they're not going to be able to do that because he did knock Eloise up.

• 21:49Kate Lister?

  He did do that.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Right, so there's sort of like nothing you can do almost. And also what this does is this humiliation, this blemishing that he has as a result of the castration means he also can no longer participate in the public life of the university.

• 22:04Kate Lister?

  Why?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Because everybody know he done got a dick.

• 22:08Kate Lister?

  But that's, I've worked at a university, that's not on the admissions criteria.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  It is then, right? It's like, you can't, you can't be out in public, like, and you can't be teaching kids, right? It's like, so in the first place.

• 22:19Kate Lister?

  I would have thought having no penis is an ideal criteria for teaching children in the church.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  No, because you should be overcoming what your penis tells you to do. It shouldn't be that you're in this place because you have been castrated, so you no longer have these urges. You're not overcoming a damn thing.

• 22:35Kate Lister?

  Is it as well that like, in some cultures I've seen that there is quite a lot of stigma around being a unit? Like, it's a weird, like, it's a weird thing to be.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely, because, you know, there is, there's so much importance placed on men's genitalia.

• 22:52Kate Lister?

  And masculinity.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And like a conception of like vibrility and a conception of, you know, even for medieval people, in theory, some kind of level of stoicism is implied by this. So, you know, the ideal man is a member of the church who's overcome sexual urges and they only kind of experience this masculine fortitude and logic, which makes them able to resist sexual urges. So in this case, he's not overcoming anything, right? Like, he's just been placed in this particular thing, so he's kind of like a woman. So you can't put him in front of students any longer because of this very particular humiliation. So it's not just about, you know, the, the fact that you can't possibly be a danger

• 23:38Speaker 01

  anymore, but it's like, this is, this is a ritual humiliation.

• 23:41Kate Lister?

  What else might you suffer castration for in the Middle Ages? Like, how common was this? I mean, and I don't mean like the castration goons, I mean like actual, like, legal apparatus, like, why might you be castrated?

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Well, you might be castrated in situations like this, it is something that would be quite common if you are a member of the nobility and you attack or you have sex with another member of the nobility. And basically, if you get girls in trouble like this, they will castrate you, because the thing that that also stops you from doing is making another marriage.

• 24:09Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Right? So it's odd for it to happen for a member of the clergy, because ordinarily, being a part of the church, that would protect you, but also being a part of the church, usually you don't do this.

• 24:20Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Or if you do it, you know, there's lots of members of the clergy who are having sex with women, but it's not like women who are this high up in the scale, right? So if you were a nobleman and you knocked up a noble woman and you refused to marry her, it is quite, well, it's not super common, but it is on the cards.

• 24:40Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  That you might be castrated, because what that does is saying, okay, well, who are you gonna marry now?

• 24:45Kate Lister?

  Yeah, okay.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Right, so you're, it's out, because marriage is specifically for.

• 24:49Kate Lister?

  Procreation.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:51Kate Lister?

  Yeah. All right, so the, the castration goons got him, and apparently people are crying in the streets.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  People are crying, they're so sad.

• 24:58Kate Lister?

  Don't believe that.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  They're so sad.

• 25:00Kate Lister?

  I'm not sure about that, but, but like, when does the news get back to Eloise? Who, who is apparently knocked up and in a convent?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Like, so yeah, she is in the convent, she is knocked up, she gives birth to their, get ready for what they name their son.

• 25:13Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Cause it's like, it's very, I love this because it is incredibly like, celebrity names now. They name their son Astrolab.

• 25:22Kate Lister?

  Which is.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  For those not in the know, um, and Astrolab is like.

• 25:31Kate Lister?

  Astrolab.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  It's like a star chart that, or like compass that like shows you a map of the night sky.

• 25:37Kate Lister?

  Well, that's quite sweet, but unfortunately, that does sound like Astrolabia, doesn't it?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  I mean, listen, if, if she was a girl, it's a beautiful name for a girl.

• 25:44Kate Lister?

  Oh, is it a boy?

• 25:45Speaker 01

  It's a boy.

• 25:46Kate Lister?

  It's a boy, okay.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  It's a boy, so Astrolab is born, um, and she's like, okay, well, I'm just gonna stay a nun. Like, here I am.

• 25:55Kate Lister?

  She calls it, right.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  And she, she's just like, I'm, I'm gonna stay right in here. Meanwhile, Abelard is shuffled off to a monastery. Um, he's still unpleasant in the monastery.

• 26:08Kate Lister?

  Even more so now, I would imagine.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Even more so now, and they have this long exchange of letters back and forth. It's really interesting, because like, since he's still personally unpleasant, like, he alleges that at a point in time, like, his fellow monks attempt to poison him, he has to be moved out of one monastery into another, and eventually he and Eloise set up a monastery and nunnery together that is.

• 26:34Kate Lister?

  I didn't know that.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's dedicated to the Holy Spirit, um, and they kind of set up their own, and she is the abbess, which means that she controls like the community of nuns working there. And they do end up kind of working together again, but we have, before that happens, this incredible exchange of love letters back and forth, and it's incredibly interesting, because Eloise is like, baby, remember all that hot sex we had? I remember when we were doing it, it was so great, oh man, I miss it so much. And he's like, a girl, I do not have a penis.

• 27:06Kate Lister?

  Oh, no.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  It's really funny, because she's still quite hot and heavy for him, and he's like, but they.

• 27:14Kate Lister?

  Can't help you with that, love, sorry.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  But they're still kind of like really obviously in love.

• 27:18Kate Lister?

  Oh, they are, right, okay.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  They do, they do still really kind of like write back and forth to each other, so, I mean, like, say what you will, they're, they're really dedicated.

• 27:29Kate Lister?

  They did actually love one another.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is, I mean, I'm like, Eloise, I want so much better for you, but she's this absolutely brilliant woman, you know, she's.

• 27:38Kate Lister?

  And she's the abbess.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  And she's the abbess, which you, you don't get to, unless you're very, very clever. So, very clearly, she's also kind of like, well, I kind of got the best of both worlds, because she gets to have this life of the mind, which she wouldn't necessarily have if she had become just a wife and mother. It's very difficult to negotiate that sort of academic freedom, that ability to write things down. And I, I mean, there's, there's so much more that Peter Abelard gets into, he's accused of heresy by, uh, Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, one of my most hated people from the Middle Ages.

• 28:14Kate Lister?

  Why?

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Um, basically, he writes a really complex theology of the Trinity. And Saint Bernard of Clairvaux also just doesn't like Peter Abelard very much, because Peter Abelard is personally unpleasant.

• 28:26Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  And so Peter Abelard is like, come debate me, bro. Come debate me about the nature of the Trinity. I never said anything heretical, and Peter Abelard is like, come on, we're gonna have this big debate. Saint Bernard is just like, no.

• 28:38Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Because he knows he'll lose, because he knows he'll lose.

• 28:42Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Because Peter Abelard, whatever you want to say about him, like, he is a bit of a wrong one, he is a ridiculous perv, he's also really, really smart.

• 28:53Kate Lister?

  I know the type.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  And.

• 28:55Kate Lister?

  I know that type.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  And like, annoyingly, he's right, I, I've read these things now, like, a lot of them are ordered to be burnt, but some of them have survived. And it's true that heresy is whatever the church says is heresy, but I'm like, babe, I don't see what's heretical about this. And what's heretical about this is actually that he's much smarter than Saint Bernard of Clairvaux.

• 29:14Kate Lister?

  That he's just doing it better.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's just doing it better, and Saint Bernard, for whatever reason, is just kind of like the church cops, which don't really exist, but it's basically if he doesn't like you, he will see to it that you, you're declared a heretic, like, one of the worst to ever do it.

• 29:29Kate Lister?

  But he did leave us some nice dogs.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  He did, I love the dogs.

• 29:33Kate Lister?

  I love the dogs.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  I love the dogs. So it's like, it's impossible to say what's good or bad, because those dogs are really cute.

• 29:39Kate Lister?

  That, if that's his legacy, being an absolute asshole, heresy, but very nice dogs.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 29:49Kate Lister?

  Hold that thought, we're gonna be back with Eleanor after this short break.

• 29:57Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters, I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe, because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing. So here we we we get we get through this really difficult life and you know, Eloise is constantly talking to Abelard.

• 30:50Kate Lister?

  Do you think, is she happy? Like, it's like such an iconic love story. I mean, I know the Victorians went nuts for it and there's like paintings and everything. I think, well, maybe you can tell me, I think a lot of it comes from their love letters.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:01Kate Lister?

  That were rediscovered and republished. And they are, I mean, there is a lot of spice in there, you'd have to say. If like you were talking about it on like, you know, smut talk, you'd give it like five or six of the little red chilies, wouldn't you?

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like, spice is high. Yeah.

• 31:15Kate Lister?

  They're very passionate as well. This isn't just like throw down stuff. Like, they really, she really loves him.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  She really loves him. And I do think, I mean, the way Peter Abelard writes about her as well as like, you know, at first, he's like, oh, yeah, I was just like into it because she was like hot and clever. But she was so hot and clever.

• 31:32Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  But I mean, he is devoted to her. And it's one of these very difficult things because clearly, there is this passion. There is a really enduring love, which is is very interesting. And actually, if you sort of left them alone, like if these structures of what constitutes a necessary marriage, if what is the prerequisites for being a university lecturer didn't exist, they could have just had a nice little relationship. You know, Eloise was genuinely like, yeah, babe, I want you to be able to work. I'll have our kid. We'll figure it out. Who cares? Right?

• 32:09Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  And even now, that would be possible.

• 32:13Kate Lister?

  They kind of do maintain a, not kind of, they do maintain a relationship, but it's

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Until death.

• 32:19Kate Lister?

  Until death. I mean, for obvious reasons, they can't have any shenanigans. He doesn't seem particularly up for that, I guess. We can, we can understand why as well. But they have like an intellectual love affair for the rest of their lives.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Goddamn right, they do. And like, I'm sorry, for me, as a nerd, like, that's incredibly romantic.

• 32:39Kate Lister?

  Yeah, right? Because the spice is gonna fade, right?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  The spice will fade, but yeah, when, when you have someone that you can really talk about intellectual things as, at a high level with, you know, that's why I'm so in love with you.

• 32:54Kate Lister?

  Oh, thank you.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  That's why, you know, that's why, you know, we're besties, right?

• 32:58Kate Lister?

  I will never call the castration goons on you. Thank you.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  It would be really difficult to do that, too. They're gonna get there and be like, girl, what is this?

• 33:08Kate Lister?

  What happens to Astrolabia?

• 33:10Speaker 01

  So Astrolabia is, Astrolabia is, he is raised by Eloise's family and he goes on to just have like a normal noble life.

• 33:18Kate Lister?

  Oh, good for him.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  So, you know, he, he is raised very well, does have a relationship in particular with his mother, but basically, her family takes care of him, which is kind of traditional.

• 33:28Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  And they sort of do so well at a church level that everyone does kind of agree.

• 33:34Kate Lister?

  Like, maybe we shouldn't have done the thing.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Like, maybe, maybe it's not that embarrassing.

• 33:40Kate Lister?

  Did Fulbert, was there any, ever any record of him going, oh, damn, sorry, I hadn't realized?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  No, he's all like, yeah, the penis deserved to die, and I hope it rots in hell. That's kind of like Fulbert's.

• 33:51Kate Lister?

  Yeah, exactly. No regrets. Don't, don't apologize.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, don't, don't, don't back down, double down, etc.

• 33:57Kate Lister?

  Never complain, don't explain.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  And, and so he just kind of like goes through it. But, you know, it's to a point where everyone agrees enough that perhaps these two were in love. And perhaps the structures of the time were such that like, they end up buried together in a Pere Lachey cemetery.

• 34:16Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's sweet. They're buried together.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, because I'm a nerd, like, I've gone to go see the grave and like leave flowers.

• 34:21Kate Lister?

  I didn't realize that. I thought like, the, the love story was like, they were in love, they're definitely in love, then the castration goons were called, and they all were kind of wrong. But like, they were in love for the rest of their lives and were buried together.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:32Kate Lister?

  Oh, wow. Oh, that, now, see, I'm quite a cynical old hag, but that is romantic.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  I mean, unfortunately.

• 34:38Kate Lister?

  That is romantic.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  I'm just like, dog, I hate to hand it to them, but.

• 34:42Kate Lister?

  That is.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  And it's one of these things, right? Because we can do whatever we want. We can say, I have some problems with this. Obviously, I don't love hitting on your student.

• 34:51Kate Lister?

  No.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  And I think that's bad. And you ought not do it.

• 34:54Kate Lister?

  I agree.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  But, on the other hand, who am I to say to Eloise, who is like, this man is the love of my life, I'm maintaining a long lasting relationship with him?

• 35:03Kate Lister?

  And she maintains that until the day she dies. There's no revelation moment of like, hang on a minute.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  No, no. And in fact, one of the things that she really says is like, this is one of the only men who is my intellectual equal. This is like, one of the only men that I can actually talk to about things. And one of the only men who does really respect my intellect.

• 35:21Kate Lister?

  Who dies first?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  He dies first. He is quite a bit older.

• 35:25Kate Lister?

  Oh, yeah, of course, of course.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  So, so he dies first, and everyone is like, thank God for that. But she's in pieces, she's in bits. But she's still got, she's still got the Donnarida run, etc., etc.

• 35:37Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  So, and they are considered, especially like in France, they're kind of like national heroes, which is why they're in Pere Lachey now, you know. So, they're moved there, eventually. They were.

• 35:48Kate Lister?

  The bones were moved a few times, weren't they?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, so at first, they're, they're out, they're out at their, their little school together, which is where they're buried initially. And then they get moved around because like, well, in the first place, the church is still taking a dim view. Peter Abelard, you know, they don't want anyone, they don't want anyone, like, getting, getting ideas above Abelard's station. But eventually, they, they are moved to Pere Lachey because everyone kind of agrees.

• 36:16Kate Lister?

  Just let them have it.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  You know?

• 36:18Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Like, it's, it's not fair, right? Like, to a certain extent, it, it isn't fair. And granted, another thing that isn't fair, is that I'm sure that medieval history is littered with love affairs like this. You know, people who were desperately in love, and they couldn't be together for whatever reason.

• 36:34Kate Lister?

  Castration goons.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, castration goons. The requirements of an education, the required.

• 36:42Kate Lister?

  Gotta go and get married to someone else.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so this is one of the only times we really get to see how actual love affairs work, right? Because they're both literate, because they were both important, so we keep their letters. You know, so we get to see this real agonizing romantic relationship.

• 37:03Kate Lister?

  And it is agonizing.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  It is. It's sad. I mean, like, listen, I'm here giggling about Abelard getting castrated, but it's kind of not nice to my girl, who didn't really want that.

• 37:12Kate Lister?

  No, that was, that's definitely unfair for her. She, she didn't, she didn't deserve that. And they were both brilliant. Like, I've read some of Abelard's writing, I wrote about it in, in my latest book, Flick, The Story of Female Pleasure. When he writes about, he's trying to like, basically understand the nature of women, and he's trying to answer the question of like, why are women more weak willed than men? And he comes, it's really, the gymnastics he goes through, and he comes with the idea that, that women are weaker, so God can love them more. Because they have to try even harder to be, to be nice, to be made themselves.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's a, it is this ongoing idea that you get from the Middle Ages of the fact that when women are good, they're better than men are. So it's like, you know, like, the Virgin Mary is this exemplum of this, where it's like, that's the best possible thing a human can be. However, they have more to overcome in order to get to that. So, you know, we'll now talk about like, the Freudian virgin horror complex thing, you know, not his term, not mine. But, you know, there is a similar thing in the Middle Ages, which it's, it's like the Virgin Mary or Eve.

• 38:22Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Right? And Eve is clearly weak willed. She's very easy to be tempted by the serpent, which is why, that's why there's that picture on the cover of my book.

• 38:30Kate Lister?

  Fabulous book.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  The ones of future sex, right?

• 38:32Kate Lister?

  Fabulous, yes.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Because you've got the Virgin Mary on one hand, and you've got Eve on the other. And these, it's like, which way, Western woman? Right? Like, are you gonna be easily tempted, specifically by sexuality? Or are you going to be able to rise above this and just become a nice mommy? Right? And so this is the thing that happens to Eloise, is she falls down the traditional route, that what, what, what people are expecting you to do in the Middle Ages when you're a woman, they're expecting you, even if you're super intelligent, to cave into the pleasures of the flesh. Because that's what women are. Women inhabit this much more, I suppose sensual kind of body. They are, they are more earthly, they are more corporeal, which is seen as bad.

• 39:16Kate Lister?

  And what's interesting about that is despite of all, like, Peter Abelard's writings, and he's writing to Eloise about like, you know, I'm paraphrasing now, but just be a good nun. That's kind of what I'm kind of saying.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  He's like, Jesus, knock it off. Knock it off with a sexy time.

• 39:31Kate Lister?

  Stop it, woman, stop it. But she doesn't. And that's what I love about her letters, is like, it, like, the woman is living in a nunnery. Her partner has been like, they took it and they went. Like, she's paid a huge price for this. And even though he's writing to her going, I really can't help you with what you're after, her letters are so passionate. She's owning this, like, sexuality. And it's such, like you said, an insight, a rare insight into some lives of medieval women. We just don't get to see it, that despite all of that rhetoric about behave yourself, she's still there. Like, in one of her letters, she's saying, call me a whore.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:07Kate Lister?

  Basically. Like, I'm paraphrasing again, but that's what she writes.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a bit that she writes in where she talks about how sometimes during mass, her thoughts stray to how they used to have sex. And sometimes, the movements of her body betray her thoughts. So she's sitting there in mass, giving it that.

• 40:26Kate Lister?

  I love that for her.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  It's so good. Have you ever seen Being John Malkovich?

• 40:31Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Okay, so you know, there's a, he's doing a puppet show at the beginning and it's like really quite horny and a guy comes up to him in the street and punches him. That's Abelard and Eloise. It's really good. It's really good. I used to show it to my students in class. I'd be like, check this out. And they're like, girl, what is this?

• 40:46Kate Lister?

  So as a final question then, why do you think that this love story is endured? Because there are many, many, many love stories. It's a really interesting one. There's a lot of tragedy in it. But why did this one catch people's imagination? Because another way of looking at it is like mucky tutor diddled his student and the uncle found out and did for him. End of story.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  I think that it is down to the fact that these two were incredible intellects.

• 41:13Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  If all you heard was gross guy from the church banging the niece, dick off, you'd be like, huh, amusing story. But we get to hear from them.

• 41:22Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  This is one of the few cases from the Middle Ages where you really get to hear from these people. Source survival doesn't usually work this way, but the reason the source survival kicked in is because even at the time, with all the sordidness around it, everyone was like, yeah, they do seem quite clever.

• 41:37Kate Lister?

  Yeah, and they do seem to quite like each other as well.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so these are privileged documents that are saved. Because they're like, woof, actually, this stuff is, you know, they're, they are, yeah, Eloise is doing sexy talk. And she's like, anyway, back to meditations on what I consider, you know, and so she has this, this really incredible way of writing where she'll be like horny, horny, horny. The smartest thing you've ever read in your life.

• 42:01Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  And so everybody saves that. And as a result, we get this really top drawer intellectualism. But it makes them these whole people, you know, they are not two dimensional individuals. We really get to hear what they think, flaws in all, right? Like Peter Abelard is a deeply, deeply flawed man, but he's interesting.

• 42:24Kate Lister?

  He is interesting.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  And it's really interesting to read his work and they're involved in like such dramatic things. So it tells us a lot about how medieval people actually are. It's, they're not just these, you know, ideas, brief sketches of a person who, you know, they're all just God fearing and attempting to do the right thing, you know? They are difficult individuals who have a lot of motivations. And it just tells us this story that is so incredibly compelling. And that, that's why I'm obsessed with them. We should all be obsessed with Abelard and Eloise. I mean, really, you can go pick up, there's like a Penguin version of it. It's like, you know, the love letters of Abelard and Eloise. It's got the Historia Coloma Totum at the beginning.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  And they're intensely romantic. There's nothing else you can say about it. You're like, I'm sorry, these people are in love and.

• 43:12Kate Lister?

  They will put any kind of you up text to shame, quite frankly.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 43:17Kate Lister?

  Like, that's what we've deteriorated to by the time we get to 2026 is just you up. Oh, it's so depressing.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  And Abelard is like, I will never be up again. We've been over this.

• 43:30Kate Lister?

  Oh, you have been marvelous. Thank you so much once again. And if the lovely people want to know more about you, where can they find you?

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Oh, come on over to Gone Medieval where I am talking about medieval stuff as per usual. You can check out my book, The Once and Future Sex, where indeed I do discuss Abelard and Eloise. And such things as women being intensely horny in the Middle Ages. And yeah, you know, we're, we're doing our thing. We're throwing it down.

• 43:54Kate Lister?

  What about social media? Can the nice people find you there?

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, they absolutely can. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Eleanor Yanaga and I am on bluesky.app at Going Medieval.

• 44:05Kate Lister?

  Well, fabulous. And I'm sure that I'll see you around these parts sometime very soon.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Oh, you'll be lucky if you can get me out of here, babe.

• 44:14Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Eleanor for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you wanted us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast was edited by Natasha Hughes and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, The History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.