Jessie Reyez - Goliath

Jessie Reyez is a singer and songwriter originally from Toronto. She's won two of Canada's Juno awards, and she's been nominated for a Grammy. In addition to writing her own music, Jessie's been a songwriter on tracks by Calvin Harris, Dua Lipa, Sam Smith, Eminem, and many others. You're probably aware that there are songwriters and producers whose names you'll find over and over again in the credits for big hits; Jessie is one of them. But for this episode, I talked to her about her own song "Goliath." And the day that she wrote that song, she happened to be in the studio with a bunch of other songwriters and producers. So I also talked to Jordan and Stefan Johnson, from the production team Monsters & Strangerz, and Jeff Gitelman, AKA Gitty. Between the three of them, their credits also include songs by Selena Gomez, Maroon 5, Alicia Keys, Mac Miller, and again, tons more. When a group like this gets together to write music, they don't always know if they're going to be making a song that's going to get recorded and released by an artist somewhere down the line, or if the song's going to get recorded at all. But in the case of "Goliath," what came out was a song that was very personal to Jessie Reyez. For more info, visit songexploder.net/jessie-reyez. https://songexploder.net/jessie-reyez

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and, piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway.

• 0:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I'm going to be on tour, playing some shows this fall. I'm going to be in London on Wednesday, November 18th. I'm going to be performing solo at Rough Trade Records on Denmark Street, and I'm going to be in conversation about my music moderated by one of my favorite actors and writers, Matthew Bainton. And a ticket to the show also gets you a copy of my album on vinyl or CD. And in December, I'm going to be on tour supporting S. Carrie. We're going to be playing a bunch of shows in the Northeast US. So I hope to see you in one of those places. You can find all the details and get links to tickets at songexploder.net/live. That's songexploder.net/live.

• 0:55Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 1:39Hrishikesh Hirway?

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• 2:27Hrishikesh Hirway?

  This episode contains explicit language.

• 2:32Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Jessie Reyes is a singer and songwriter, originally from Toronto. She's won two of Canada's Juno Awards, and she's been nominated for a Grammy. In addition to writing her own music, Jessie's been a songwriter on tracks by Calvin Harris, Dua Lipa, Sam Smith, Eminem, and many others. You're probably aware that there are songwriters and producers whose names you'll find over and over again in the credits for big hits. Jessie is one of them. But for this episode, I talk to her about her own song, "Goliath." And the day that she wrote that song, she happened to be in the studio with a bunch of other songwriters and producers. So I also talked to Jordan and Stephen Johnson from the production team Monsters and Strangers, and Jeff Gitelman, aka Giddy. Between the three of them, their credits also include songs by Selena Gomez, Maroon

• 3:15Hrishikesh Hirway?

  5, Alicia Keys, Mac Miller, and again, tons more. When a group like this gets together to write music, they don't always know if they're going to be making a song that's going to get recorded and released by an artist somewhere down the line, or if that song's going to get recorded at all. But in the case of "Goliath," what came out was a song that was very personal to Jessie Reyes.

• 4:05Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Where were you on the first day that you started working on this song?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  We were at the studio at the Monsters and Strangers spa. It's a house that's been converted into a studio, which is great, because the more I've done it, and the more I've been lucky enough to be a full-time musician, the more I've found that I have a special love for when it's like a home setup. It just feels much more intimate. And so they have a house that's been converted.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  We have a house in Sherman Oaks, California, where the garage is a studio, the master bedroom's a studio, the guest bedroom's a studio. It's kind of like our home base for work.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  My name is Jordan Johnson, Monsters and Strangers.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  And I'm Stefan Johnson, Monsters and Strangers.

• 4:45Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And who else was in the studio with the two of you and Jessie that day?

• 4:48Speaker 03

  We don't write with Jessie with co-writers very often. Like, she, you know, is a full-fledged, she can do lyric, melody, do the whole thing. But Jeff Giddy and also for Goliath, Lunch Money Lewis actually happened to be there.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  So was me and the boys.

• 5:06Speaker 04

  We were having a conversation with Jessie about some stuff that was going on in her life. And then the producer we were working with, Jeff Giddy, he pulled up a bunch of music beds.

• 5:17Speaker 05

  Hello, my name is Jeff Gitelman, AKA Giddy. The more experience I get and the older I get in this industry, the more I just really like to be prepared. And so with this song in particular, I had an idea that I prepped.

• 5:36Speaker 05

  I came up with the idea on the Wurlitzer.

• 5:51Speaker 05

  And so I just heard like a 1, 2, 3, 4 major chord progression.

• 5:58Speaker 05

  And then I laid down the guitar.

• 6:03Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What's your main instrument? Do you have one?

• 6:05Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, I came up as a guitar player. My first job in the business was touring with Lauryn Hill, playing guitar in 2005.

• 6:14Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Was this lead guitar melody part in there from the very beginning?

• 6:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, I just wanted to do something that's melodic and iconic.

• 6:23Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Do you think you could explain why that's so important?

• 6:27Speaker 05

  So I asked one of my OGs, Craig Callman, one time, what makes a hit record, you know? And he said, well, listen, rule number one is before the vocals come in, the music's got to sound like a hit. So I was like, oh, shit, as a producer, I actually have a power without the lyrics and the melody, which are so important. But I have the power outside of that to make somebody feel something. And so, yeah, I wanted to have a melody, but I didn't want to make it too high to where it gets in the way of the vocal.

• 6:58Speaker 05

  The older I get, the more I want to do with less. So it's literally one take of each instrument and onto tape. And off the bat, when I hear it back, it sounds exactly how I want it to sound versus spending the same amount of time doing the take and then having to spend 30 minutes like messing with plugins. And so besides the bass and the two guitars, an important element that I thought belonged was a Hammond B3 organ.

• 7:31Speaker 05

  Instead of just playing one sound, I'm constantly changing my foot pedal on the volume, I'm constantly changing the drawbars. And so you're not listening for it, it's subconscious, but it's evolving pretty much throughout the whole thing.

• 7:59Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Who's playing that trumpet?

• 8:01Speaker 05

  That is my friend, Miles Julian. And so, yeah, that was in the original little loop that I played for Monsters and Jesse that day.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  So, we were in the room playing the music, and I was in there with my eyes closed.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  It was my niece's birthday, and I hadn't been able to speak to her in a long time, despite trying. I hadn't been able to speak to her, which is a difficult time with my family, some of my family.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Me and my brother and my sister-in-law have been going through it, and by default, I haven't been able to see the kids as much as I'd like to.

• 8:40Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Their kids?

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, who are my favorite people. And then I got my call returned, and I got her on the phone, and I left the studio and I went outside and I was trying to keep it together, and she's younger, and I started getting emotional, and I was really trying to control it, because you know, adults understand those kind of tears, but kids don't, they're kind of perplexed. So it was just, it was combustible, it was like, really, it was a lot, and I was trying to keep it together. We talked for a bit, and then we said goodbye, and then it was waterworks.

• 9:16Speaker 06

  And then I got my bearings and then I went back inside. And when I got back in the room, I shut my eyes but also leaned back because if there was tears coming, I'm not trying to cry in a room full of people either. So I was leaning back, the tears are going sideways because I was just thinking about how much I love her.

• 9:36Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Let me play the voice memo that you sent me.

• 9:39Speaker 06

  When I say I love you, I mean I would pull every star from the sky down, cause my everman on the bible, and I would walk through any fire, walk, walk through bed, walk, walk in bed, foot through the fire. When I say I love you, it means I'd pull every star from the sky down. For you, I would pass on the title, the youth and the miss in the time. When I say I love you.

• 10:14Hrishikesh Hirway?

  It's interesting to listen to that voice memo because, well, one, the music is slower, but also you're going through this thing, but the guys in the background are just, they're just chatting.

• 10:27Speaker 06

  I was in the same room, but I was in another world.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I remember her getting emotional that day during the process. You could see it was like a definitely a pure feeling that she was channeling. She just went into her, we call her little trance state, where she'll literally stay silent for 30 minutes to an hour, two hours, and then she'll pop her head up, she'll be like, alright, I got something.

• 10:49Speaker 06

  It's funny because it sounds so easy, but it's also a technique that I've worked on for over a decade.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  Her writing process is so crazy and she doesn't write anything down and it's like almost so instant.

• 11:05Hrishikesh Hirway?

  She doesn't write anything down?

• 11:06Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. She doesn't write a thing down. She got that from Babyface. Babyface said, "If it's good enough, you'll remember." And this was a long time ago because I've been working with her for years. I've never seen her write stuff down and she instantly gets the melody and the lyrics.

• 11:21Speaker 06

  And the chorus to "Goliath" came up. When I say I love you, I mean I would pull every star from the sky down, I'll square up with any Goliath, I'll moonwalk it through any fire. When I say I love you.

• 11:47Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What was right about this music to connect this experience that you'd been going through to that feeling?

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Some chords just elicit that sort of reaction. They feel warm, they feel nostalgic, they feel like a hug. Yeah, it just feels like love. So it was like the perfect canvas. Every lyric couldn't be more true. I just love her.

• 12:11Hrishikesh Hirway?

  My conversation with Jesse Reyes and the story of Making Goliath continues after this.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  When I first heard the hook, I was like, yo, this is like one of the sickest love songs. Like, this could be timeless classic. And then that's when she kind of explained that like she wasn't writing it as a love song, a romantic love song.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  And then once the chorus was done, I again got my bearings again, kind of got my footing. And then I looked at it a little bit more pragmatically and strategically and almost reminded myself that not everybody understands that sort of love unless you have kids in your life, unless you have a relationship like that with kids where it's like pure love. You don't really understand that until you do.

• 12:57Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  But if you don't, it's something foreign. So I thought, what's more universal? Well, it seems like romantic love is much more universal than that kind of love. So then the verses are deliberately more romantic.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  That lyric?

• 13:34Speaker 02

  Let me broken, the water's pouring. You turned me into apple pie. So that lyric, it was originally in this song that I wrote years ago called French Boys. And it ended up going in the pitch folder because it just didn't feel right for me at the time.

• 13:53Hrishikesh Hirway?

  What does that mean, the pitch folder?

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Just songs that I love, but don't, like sweaters I've made that don't fit me, but I know they're elite. So they go in the pitch folder for when artists are looking that I know I could pitch this song for that artist or pitch this song for, for that movie, you know? So it went into that pitch folder and then we ended up pitching it to Lisa from Blackpink. They loved it, but they asked for some revisions. But it's so cool when moments happen like this where a lyric can come to live and still see the light of day just somewhere else. It was nice that I was able to save it. Deleted every contact from my phone, baby. If I'm honest, I ain't trying to talk to no one but to cuddle in your arms of my home, baby. If I'm honest, I dropped every single hole for you.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  I recorded it without drums, so it's very leaned back.

• 14:44Hrishikesh Hirway?

  In terms of the rhythm and feel of your delivery?

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was hella leaning back because there was no drums. And then the drums got added after.

• 15:02Speaker 05

  The person playing drums on this record is Drew McCann.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  And when the drums got added after, I talked to the guys and I was like, fuck, I feel like I should re-record it.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Jesse tried multiple times to re-sing over the drums.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  But they looked at me and they were like, Jess, it sounds elite because it sounds like very floaty. It sounds right still. Don't second guess it. It sounds right. And I was like, okay.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  But I felt like some of the pocket was a little off, so then we manually adjusted, I don't know, maybe three or four words in the second verse, just to sit forward a bit more.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Jesse ran me through the ringer a little bit. What we ended up doing is nudging some of the original vocals around instead of using the new ones.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  It was just nice to be able to go in meticulous and I love. I just gotta sing their praises so much because in the moments where I do feel like going into the minutia and editing and like to someone else, to someone that doesn't care about it, it's gonna feel tedious. But to someone who cares just as much and who someone who trusts you as much as you trust them, they're gonna be like, cool, come in, I'll make two hours today, I'll make an hour of my time, I got sessions, but come in and we'll do those little minor changes. To move a word, a millisecond to the right and a millisecond to the left, and then the left is too much, so now split the millisecond difference and now do that. And now let's change the BPM again, and now let's AMB them.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  And it's very, very tedious, meticulous, but tedious shit arguably, but when you give a fuck, it matters. And again, not everybody's like that. Not every producer or production team is gonna be like, yeah, sure, come in, we got sessions today, but we'll go in the other room and we'll make this happen. And they did.

• 16:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, anything for Jessie. Watching her write songs is like watching a basketball player do 360 double-handed dunks and just, it's just, it's an incredible thing to witness. It's really, I feel privileged to be able to witness her process. And, and also very grateful that she lets us into the process to be able to mold things, specifically in the pre-course.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  The pre, for me, was originally the post. Finders keepers, losers weepers, let the streets cry. Finders keepers, losers weepers, now you're all mine. I recorded everything and then I think I went to do something. And then when I came back, Steph was at the board and he was like, hey, he was like, we just did a little change, like, tell me how you feel. And it just feels so much better. And he was 100% right. They were right.

• 17:48Speaker 05

  The beautiful thing about Monsters and Strangers is that they really understand, you know, what's the most iconic part of the record? What's the part that's the hook? What's the key? Just formatting and putting a record together and getting the best out of artists.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  I'm a student of this game. And I remember years ago, I saw an interview that Pharrell did. And he was talking about how in songs, there's just nothing new. There's nothing new under the sun. Everything's been written about. But the beauty and the artistry is in finding those classic, quintessential, human emotions or moments, and describing them in a different way. Also, he was like, it's really slick if you can pull on someone's nostalgia. Because there's moments that you just, you know, your inner child just holds close. He's like, it's slick if you could, if you could do that. Because it's gonna resonate more with somebody if you're able to pull that way. I think that's so cool. So I was able to do that in that pre.

• 18:58Hrishikesh Hirway?

  By saying find, just by saying the words.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Finders keepers, yeah. Post to nostalgia already.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  When she first laid down the chorus, I think we were just in the room all kind of being like, new shit, new shit. We'll just do that sometimes in the room, just get her hyped up.

• 19:12Speaker 05

  And Lunch Money Lewis was like, oh, it's that brand new Jesse, Jesse, Jesse. And he literally did it like that. And we were like, that should be the intro of the record. And he picked up the mic and he literally did that.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  That's so good. That moment, to me, it just started feeling like a record. I don't know, it just felt like magic. That's one of my favorite parts about the record, too, just that little piece.

• 19:44Hrishikesh Hirway?

  How did you feel about the song by the time you'd finished all the work for it?

• 19:48Speaker 02

  I knew the song was great that they even made it. I'm not, I'm grateful, but I knew it was great.

• 19:54Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Yeah. How often do you feel that way?

• 19:57Speaker 02

  A lot of my quality product comes from my quantity. I'm lucky that I, that I'm able to do that because not all my songs are great. Some of my songs suck, but that's how I'm able to get them. Because I, my output is so fucking high that I can make 10. And 10 might be shit, but 11 is gonna be lit.

• 20:13Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And you're not gonna get to number 11 unless you do.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  You're not gonna get to the good songs, yeah, until you get to the shitty ones.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  The funny thing about this one, I actually prepped this idea for a whole other artist.

• 20:23Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Really?

• 20:24Speaker 05

  I sent it to the artist that I was prepping it for. And they, I don't think they ever replied to my text message. And so I'm just like, oh, okay, I guess they don't love it. And so I put it back into my vault. And then when, you know, when we're working with Jesse, I was like, ah, you know what? Let me, let me go into this little chapter right here. And then that's when I pressed play and right off the bat, Jesse heard it, knew what it was and nailed it.

• 20:52Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Has your niece been able to hear the song? Have you had a chance to talk to her since that, that call?

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 21:00Hrishikesh Hirway?

  I'm sorry.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  That's okay. That's okay. It is what it is. Nothing's perfect. I don't know if she's been able to hear. Hopefully she has. I just love her.

• 21:16Hrishikesh Hirway?

  And now here's "Goliath" by Jesse Reyes in its entirety.

• 21:33Speaker 06

  When I said I love you, I mean I would pull every star from the sky down, I'll square up with any goliath, I'll moonwalk it through any fire. When I said I love you, I mean I ain't trying to do this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm around you. I was protecting you till I found you. You love me like a Sunday morning, but you kiss me like a Friday night. Many blessings stuck up when it's over. Slow loving is a holy night. Love you broke and the water's pouring. You turned me into apple pie. No letting go, baby, it's you I'm holding. Holding on to till the end of time.

• 22:18Speaker 06

  Finders keepers, losers weepers, let the streets cry. Finders keepers, losers weepers, now you're all mine. When I said I love you, I mean I would pull every star from the sky down, I'll square up with any goliath, I'll moonwalk it through any fire. When I said I love you. I mean, I ain't trying to do this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm around you. I was about to give up till I found you. When I say I love you.

• 22:57Speaker 06

  When I say I love ya.

• 23:03Speaker 06

  Deleted every contact from my phone. Baby, if I'm honest, I ain't trying to talk to no one but you. Cuddled in your arms, I found my home. Baby, if I'm honest, I'd jack every single hole for you. I'm a little loca, but your loco rematch. And Gemini's, I really know for getting attached. Would I be looking at our pics in my phone? Think you got me hooked on you like a hit song. Finders keepers, losers weepers, let the streets cry. Finders keepers, losers weepers, now you're all mine. When I say I love you. I mean, I would pull every star from the sky down. I'll square up with the nigga lion. Or moonwalking through any fire.

• 23:47Speaker 06

  When I say I love you. I mean, I ain't trying to do this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm around you. I was about to give up till I found you. When I say I love you.

• 24:04Speaker 06

  When I say I love ya.

• 24:22Hrishikesh Hirway?

  Visit songexploder.net to learn more. You'll find links to buy and stream Goliath, and you can watch the music video. This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Biscuit. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. I write a newsletter where I talk about the making of some of these episodes, and about music and film, and generally about the creative process. And you can find a link to that newsletter on the Song Exploder website.

• 25:07Hrishikesh Hirway?

  You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net/shirt. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. Thanks for listening.

• 25:22Speaker 06

  Radiotopia.

• 25:25Speaker 06

  From PRX.