The Twisted Tale of Travis the Chimpanzee

Wes tells the horrifying and tragic story of Charla Nash, Sandra Herold, and Travis the chimpanzee. ~~ MasterClass: Get 15% off any annual membership at MasterClass by visiting https://masterclass.com/TOOTH and using promo code TOOTH Ollie Pet Food: Cozy up with your pup this season—go to https://ollie.com/tooth and use code tooth to get 60% off your first box! Remi: Get 50% off your custom night guard at https://shopremi.com/tooth with code TOOTH at checkout. Rocket Money: Let Rockey Money help you reach your financial goals faster—join at https://RocketMoney.com/CLAW with promo code CLAW. Smalls: For a limited time, get 60% off your first order plus free shipping at https://Smalls.com/TOOTH ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/c/toothandclawpodcast ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social: Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Jeff Larson?

  Hello everyone. Welcome back to Tooth and Claw Podcast. We have our chimpanzee biologist Wes Larson with us.

• 0:20Wes Larson?

  That's not me.

• 0:22Jeff Larson?

  Or which one?

• 0:23Wes Larson?

  What? I'm not a chimpanzee biologist.

• 0:25Jeff Larson?

  Or which one?

• 0:26Wes Larson?

  Bears. Or which one?

• 0:28Jeff Larson?

  Bears?

• 0:28Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 0:29Jeff Larson?

  Okay. Yeah, we have a bear biologist. Is that right?

• 0:34Wes Larson?

  That's better. Yeah.

• 0:35Jeff Larson?

  Don't need to say the type of bear?

• 0:37Wes Larson?

  I'm pretty much a chimpanzee biologist after our chimp crazy episodes. Mike's one too.

• 0:45Jeff Larson?

  And then, yeah, we have Mike Smith with us and he's a good guy. That's all I can say about Mike.

• 0:51Mike Smith?

  Yeah, he is. I try to be.

• 0:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I like your hat today, Mike.

• 0:56Mike Smith?

  Thanks.

• 0:56Wes Larson?

  It's a good hat.

• 0:57Mike Smith?

  You're a good guy to just complimenting me. That's a good guy behavior.

• 1:01Wes Larson?

  I guess.

• 1:02Jeff Larson?

  Oh, really? Thank you.

• 1:03Wes Larson?

  Sometimes I feel like that is a you. You've gotten at me once or twice before for doing nervous laughter, which I do, and I am trying to kind of work on. I think I kind of nervously compliment people too. Like, I think if I don't have, I think if there's a lull in the conversation, I don't have like something to say, I just throw out a compliment.

• 1:24Mike Smith?

  I think that's a great reaction, though.

• 1:27Wes Larson?

  I guess.

• 1:27Mike Smith?

  If that's where your brain goes to fill dead air.

• 1:30Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 1:30Mike Smith?

  Yeah, okay. Well.

• 1:32Jeff Larson?

  A cop is like framing him with drugs and he's like, I like your gun.

• 1:40Wes Larson?

  Uh, all right. Well, I brought up chimp crazy a second ago, and there's a reason I did that. We, in 2024, we partnered with HBO documentaries and we did a series of episodes on their series, Chimp Crazy. It was a lot of work, but we are really proud of what we put out. And there was a part in that series where they go into one of the premier animal attack stories of our lifetimes. When we started this podcast, this was one of the stories that was like top of mind for me. And I actually started putting it together and then I stumbled on the story of Mo the chimpanzee. And he kind of pushed out this story.

• 2:23Wes Larson?

  And then we were going to do it during the chimp crazy episodes, but they kind of wanted us to wait. And so we waited, but now we're finally doing the story in full of Travis, the chimpanzee.

• 2:34Jeff Larson?

  Great.

• 2:34Wes Larson?

  So we have talked about this in those chimp crazy episodes, but not really at length. We haven't really dove into it the way I've wanted to. It was all over the news. It rocked the world when it happened. The details came out and people are still kind of reeling from this one. This is still one that is very much in the public mind because it's such a crazy attack.

• 2:55Jeff Larson?

  You added the words, the world after you said it rocked. I was afraid you were just gonna let it.

• 3:00Wes Larson?

  It rocked.

• 3:01Jeff Larson?

  It rocked. Rested. It rocked. It's like, ah.

• 3:04Wes Larson?

  Rocked.

• 3:05Jeff Larson?

  That's a weird way to approach this one.

• 3:07Wes Larson?

  To describe it. All right. So the other reason for doing this is there's a movie coming out this month called Primate. I can't say if it's good or not. I haven't seen it. Uh, I think it's made by Shudder. It's all about a, a pet chimpanzee that kind of goes on a rampage. I think it becomes rabid and it just seemed like good timing to finally do Travis's story. Based on that movie coming out, there being enough separation from our chimp crazy episodes. Here we go. We're gonna do Travis finally.

• 3:37Jeff Larson?

  I was talking to a guy yesterday and telling him about our podcast. And I was saying like, oh yeah, we're about to do Travis the chimp. And he's like, oh, that's such a crazy story. He's like, the biggest one ever, this ape killed like 20 people on a TV set, right? I was like, you know, I'm not positive, but I think you're just thinking of the movie Nope.

• 3:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Wes Larson?

  That's a kind way to say that to him. That's great.

• 4:04Jeff Larson?

  That's true. There was, this is like probably the biggest known chimp attack ever, right?

• 4:11Wes Larson?

  Without a doubt. And the, the events in Nope were very much based off of Travis, especially when you see the victim later and she has that veil over her face. Because our victim would commonly wear a veil like that in real life. So yeah, Jordan Peele really dug into this story a bit when he did the story of Gordy and Nope. Okay. Sandy Harold was born in 1938 in Stamford, Connecticut.

• 4:38Wes Larson?

  To a Jewish Italian family. Uh, her dad operated a popular bakery in the town and Sandy had a relatively unassuming childhood. As an only child, she was obsessed with dogs, especially with their family, German Shepherd. But she kind of just grew up like most only childs back then, very loved by her parents, a pretty typical American upbringing. She grew up, she got married in the 50s, right out of high school, and then got divorced and then married again. She graduated high school when she was 50? No, in the 1950s, she got married. Super senior. Right out of high school. She's a Stranger Things. Yeah, like Eddie.

• 5:20Wes Larson?

  Then she got divorced and she got married again in 1960. So pretty quick turnaround. The second marriage was much more romantic, but also filled with a lot of intensity and a lot of fighting. And it really though, did bring Sandy's first true love of her life, which was her daughter named Susan, or Sue, who was born in 1961. But Sandy's husband had an addiction that makes, in my opinion, makes married life kind of hard. And that addiction was sleeping with lots and lots of other women and being an asshole. Tough. Oh, both of those things are tough. Don't be either of those things, guys. Yeah, those are bad things to be if you want your marriage to work out. So she got

• 6:01Wes Larson?

  her second divorce in the mid 60s. And a little bit, just to describe Sandy, she's on the shorter side. She has long jet black hair with cropped bangs, very like bronze looking, like maybe lots of tanning or self tanner. Call Hollywood, kinda? Yeah. Um, and just very vivacious, like dresses, maybe like a little bit, uh, exorbitantly or whatever the word would be enthusiastically. But a person that everyone said was very funny, very fun to be around and just a real character. All right. When she turned 30, she married the next love of her life, after her daughter Sue, who's Jerry Harold. He was very different from her other two husbands in that he was kind, intelligent,

• 6:46Wes Larson?

  doting, and loyal. And finally Sandy found some stability. Her and Jerry moved in with her parents in the house that she had grown up in, and Jerry raised Sue, the daughter, as if she were her own, his own daughter. They also started a few different businesses in town, including a towing business and an auto body shop. And both of those businesses actually really flourished and they became millionaires, but very low key millionaires. They weren't like flaunting their wealth. They were kind of spending it more on like dogs. And I don't know, whatever.

• 7:17Jeff Larson?

  It's kind of like what you do with your millions.

• 7:19Wes Larson?

  It's whatever Jesse spends her money on. I think they were spending their money on that, too. I definitely don't have millions, but maybe one day. They also got into, pretty into semi-professional barrel racing in rodeos, or at least Sandy.

• 7:32Mike Smith?

  No way. Yeah, that's the coolest thing I've ever heard.

• 7:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah. So in the seventies, the whole family would follow her around when she went from rodeo to rodeo and did barrel racing. And it was during this time that Sandy met an 18-year-old runaway named Charla Nash. She met her on this rodeo circuit. The two became fast friends. They spent a lot of time traveling around to different rodeos together, and they were really good friends. So one day, the two women were at the rodeo and this rodeo had-

• 8:00Mike Smith?

  Wait a minute.

• 8:01Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Mike Smith?

  Am I envisioning the wrong thing when I hear barrel racing? I was picturing like the hobbits in the river in barrels. That's probably not going on.

• 8:09Jeff Larson?

  I was surprised because it's just horses running around barrels.

• 8:13Mike Smith?

  That's, yeah. No, fuck that.

• 8:15Jeff Larson?

  And you said the coolest thing ever. You thought they were like rolling on top of the barrels with their feet.

• 8:21Mike Smith?

  All right. Correction corner.

• 8:23Jeff Larson?

  What did you think he meant?

• 8:25Mike Smith?

  You were- I thought he was talking about like-

• 8:27Wes Larson?

  Picturing hobbits in the river.

• 8:29Mike Smith?

  Barrels going over the Niagara Falls, dude. That would have been so sick. Just a race to see who got down to the bottom of the waterfall.

• 8:38Jeff Larson?

  You're thinking like Donkey Kong. Like you gotta jump over the barrels coming out, right?

• 8:45Mike Smith?

  Jeez, come on, that's such a misleading name.

• 8:48Wes Larson?

  So actual barrel racing. It's when the barrels are like put up around the arena and they ride around him and do really tight turns around the barrels.

• 8:55Mike Smith?

  Boring, boring.

• 8:57Jeff Larson?

  That is a good point by Mike, though, like barrel racing, you think the barrels would be racing.

• 9:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 9:03Jeff Larson?

  Right. Like if we ever race barrels, what can we call it now?

• 9:07Wes Larson?

  I don't know.

• 9:08Mike Smith?

  Barrel one. I don't know, it's like.

• 9:10Wes Larson?

  There's probably someone.

• 9:11Mike Smith?

  But B1.

• 9:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah, all right, I'm gonna get off of this. All right, so one day, these two women, Sandy and Charla, were at a rodeo that had a special attraction. And that attraction was a chimpanzee dressed like a cowboy that was riding a horse around the arena. And the crowd, rightfully so, was losing its mind.

• 9:32Wes Larson?

  Later, Sandy found the chimpanzee backstage and gave it a few gummy bears. Then a little bit later, when the chimpanzee was back on its horse again in the arena, it saw Sandy in the audience, it jumped down, ran over and jumped in her arms, and it made a pretty big impression on Sandy.

• 9:50Jeff Larson?

  That'll do it.

• 9:51Wes Larson?

  It'll do it, yep. Just it running around on a horse, you know, dressed as a cowboy is probably enough. It's enough for Jeff.

• 10:00Jeff Larson?

  Well, I mean, it gets back to Mike's point, too. They had a chimpanzee there, they could have easily done Donkey Kong, just had them throw barrels.

• 10:11Mike Smith?

  Just needed one gorilla and we would have been set.

• 10:15Jeff Larson?

  Well, I'm saying, you got the chim, that's good enough.

• 10:17Wes Larson?

  Close enough.

• 10:18Mike Smith?

  Well, that's Diddy Kong, right? We need to get the whole crew together.

• 10:23Wes Larson?

  So the following years are really just some golden years for this little family. Sue grew up kind of like a younger copy of her mom. She just has platinum blonde hair instead of black. Her and her mom rodeo together, they dance together, they work together, they're constantly just chatting and having fun around their house, their horses, their dogs, and Jerry. But then Sue falls in love, she marries, and her husband convinces her to move away. And then right after that- The third marriage? No, this is Sue, the daughter. Oh, yeah, yeah. And she had been living with Sandy and whatnot. And then, right after that, both of Sandy's parents grew ill and died. So, everything really goes from being wonderful and golden and perfect to kind of stale and gray.

• 11:07Wes Larson?

  And Sandy and Jerry realize that they're kind of on the far end of middle age, and they really don't have a lot around to keep them happy and fulfilled. And Sandy's about to change all of that with a visit to Festus, Missouri in 1994. Do you guys remember who lives in Festus, Missouri? Hmm, that lady that Tanya worked for. Yes. What was her name? Barb? Connie Casey. There it is. Chimp queen. Yes, she is the chimp queen. Connie Casey, this is a woman who, if you listen to our Chimp Crazy episodes, is in large part responsible for a lot of the captive chimpanzees in the United States. She was a breeder, she sold chimpanzees to private owners.

• 11:51Wes Larson?

  And then, when that became legally complicated for her, she started like a rescue for her chimpanzees. She's just trying to help out. Yeah. If you want to learn more about her, go back and listen to those episodes, or watch the Chimp Crazy documentary. Actually, do both. But, a few days earlier, Connie Casey had called Sandy to tell her that her baby had arrived, and that it was a boy. Sandy had been in contact with Connie for a while now, and over the months, they'd negotiated a deal for Sandy to buy a newborn chimpanzee. And her swaddling babe had been born, and Sandy flew to Missouri, went to the Casey's house, and bought her chimpanzee for 40 grand, uh, after they sedated its mom and took it out of the cage.

• 12:35Wes Larson?

  Wow, is that like the going rate for chimps? Yeah. I think it's probably a lot more now. This was in 1994. Doggone. They're expensive. There's like worse ways you could spend $40,000. Sure. Yeah, without a doubt.

• 12:51Wes Larson?

  She named him Travis after her favorite country singer, Travis Tritt, who I couldn't name a song from if you put a gun to my head. Bill, play a clip right here.

• 13:07Mike Smith?

  Uh, have you guys seen, there's a clip going around the internet of someone who like pieced, made a song out of all the country songs, talking about like drinking ice cold beer. And it's like, really long and it's just all these different clips from different country songs going like, ice cold beer.

• 13:26Jeff Larson?

  They do so much. It's always whiskey too. Like every time it's, like if it's liquor, it's whiskey every.

• 13:35Jeff Larson?

  Got to be tough.

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• 14:37Mike Smith?

  This episode is brought to you by MasterClass. It's the start of a new year and what better time is there to start a new habit? And that's why we want to talk to you about MasterClass. A new year, new me kind of thing. When we first partnered with MasterClass here at Tooth and Claw, I was sifting through their library of classes that they had on offer. I was honestly just blown away and one in particular really caught my eye. It was such a pleasant surprise to see that a class was being offered by author Michael Lewis. The author of a fantastic book called Moneyball. You'll probably know it inspired the movie, uh, an amazing movie as well. And so you know, I had to click onto that and pick his brain, see what he had to say. And it was just such an elucidating exercise for those brief moments I clicked in.

• 15:16Wes Larson?

  Got sucked into it. I couldn't stop watching and I was immediately sold on a subscription to MasterClass. With MasterClass, you can learn from the best to become your best. With plans starting at $10 a month, billed annually, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and more. And they really do make a difference. Three in four surveyed members feel inspired every time they watch MasterClass. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/tooth. That's 15% off at masterclass.com/tooth. Masterclass.com/tooth.

• 15:57Wes Larson?

  All right. The first few months of Travis's life were really not that different from a human newborn. Sandy and Jerry bottle fed him. They took turns holding him. They let him lay on blankets around the house or in his crib. And he just took time absorbing their smells, their sounds, and bonding to them. Then around three months old, he was able to turn himself over. Not long after that, he was scooting around and then walking on his hands and legs. Which is something I didn't really understand, that they're pretty like immobile for their first few months of life. So they're always just holding on to their moms.

• 16:29Mike Smith?

  That is really interesting.

• 16:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Mike Smith?

  Like a human, right?

• 16:33Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 16:33Mike Smith?

  Like it's a big milestone for a baby when they flip over for this first time. It's like, we're celebrating that. And it's usually animals are like, what's the big deal here?

• 16:43Wes Larson?

  But yeah.

• 16:44Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 16:44Wes Larson?

  No, that was, that's the thought I had too, because I thought that we were kind of unique in how helpless we were for how long we're helpless. And it turns out that chimpanzees are pretty similar. And it makes sense because they're our closest living relative.

• 16:58Jeff Larson?

  Sharks too.

• 17:00Wes Larson?

  What about?

• 17:00Jeff Larson?

  They don't flip over for a really long time.

• 17:03Wes Larson?

  Yeah, they don't really ever flip over unless they have to. Yeah, that's true. Uh, but not really a good comparison.

• 17:11Mike Smith?

  All right.

• 17:11Mike Smith?

  They never do like a barrel roll in the water?

• 17:14Jeff Larson?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 17:15Wes Larson?

  Yeah, sometimes. Yeah.

• 17:16Jeff Larson?

  Not till they're adults.

• 17:18Wes Larson?

  I don't know about that.

• 17:19Mike Smith?

  Takes a long time, right?

• 17:20Wes Larson?

  I don't think that's true at all.

• 17:22Mike Smith?

  It's an advanced move.

• 17:23Wes Larson?

  I think they're kind of born doing a barrel roll. All right.

• 17:26Jeff Larson?

  Whoa.

• 17:27Wes Larson?

  Sandy and Jerry taught Travis how to be a member of their family, how to use the toilet, how to brush his teeth, how to take a bath. Uh, again, a lot of the same thing, same things you would teach a toddler or little kid in a family. They bought him a whole wardrobe and each day Sandy would dress him in different outfits, which we've established is the best thing about having a pet chimpanzee is there's one good thing about it. It's putting them in fun outfits.

• 17:52Jeff Larson?

  Here's, yeah, it's like, we're already way past being morally correct here. So.

• 17:59Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Jeff Larson?

  Go ahead and dress him up.

• 18:01Wes Larson?

  Right.

• 18:02Jeff Larson?

  In my opinion.

• 18:02Wes Larson?

  If you're gonna have one, you might as well make him look good. Yeah.

• 18:06Mike Smith?

  What's your, the number one article of clothing? Cause for me, it's a little cap with a propeller on it. That's like.

• 18:12Jeff Larson?

  That's what I, my mind went to.

• 18:14Wes Larson?

  Buy.

• 18:15Jeff Larson?

  I think this is, I think like overalls is really high.

• 18:18Wes Larson?

  Spenders are overalls. Yeah.

• 18:22Jeff Larson?

  You know, I'm, I'm a sucker too for like a professional chimpanzee, like in a suit and tie.

• 18:29Mike Smith?

  That's real good.

• 18:31Wes Larson?

  Well, that's like, that means something too. There's like some hidden depth to that photo, you know? It's like, oh man. We think we're so smart going off to the rat race, but we're all just a bunch of apes.

• 18:41Jeff Larson?

  And like, maybe it's just me, but like, I assume that's a successful chimpanzee every single time.

• 18:48Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 18:49Jeff Larson?

  A boss.

• 18:51Mike Smith?

  Uh, well, they, I got, they got a leg up in negotiations because they're like, if you don't agree to this deal, I'm gonna rip your balls off. So.

• 19:00Jeff Larson?

  Well.

• 19:01Wes Larson?

  Horrifically maul you.

• 19:02Mike Smith?

  Right.

• 19:03Jeff Larson?

  But on the other end, it's like, if they're running a company and all you gotta offer them is like a truckload of bananas, it's pretty good on, for you too.

• 19:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's cheap. Yeah. Jeff, I think if you, if we were to say you're a scientist, you could be like a chimpanzee outfit professional. I think that would be something you could claim pretty quick.

• 19:26Jeff Larson?

  I think I'm, I don't think I'm the best in the, it's like you, you're not the best bear biologist in the world, but you're top 10.

• 19:35Wes Larson?

  Sure. I'm not top 10.

• 19:38Wes Larson?

  All right. So they ended up retrofitting their house to make areas for Travis where he could roam freely. They hung ropes and tires and whatnot in his room. But they did have some strong metal doors, some caging, some different things to install. So that they did have an area where they could secure him if needed. But most nights, especially as a baby, Travis slept in bed with them or in their room. And as a young chimpanzee. Yeah. And it really helped them kill their loneliness. They felt like they had a new lease on life. They would take him to work. He quickly became the mascot of their businesses. And both employees and local residents really started falling in love with Travis. Even the policeman really, really liked him.

• 20:21Jeff Larson?

  Sure. Would you say it's like a good thing to do if you're in a relationship that's kind of lost its luster a bit?

• 20:30Wes Larson?

  You're losing your spark.

• 20:32Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 20:33Wes Larson?

  Go adopt a chimpanzee. I would not say that.

• 20:35Jeff Larson?

  You wouldn't recommend getting a chimpanzee?

• 20:38Wes Larson?

  No, I'd say more like-

• 20:39Jeff Larson?

  In struggling couples.

• 20:40Wes Larson?

  Couples therapist might be a better idea or yeah. We'll see how this ends out, but I don't think it's going to be a good ending for any of these people. Things got even better for Jerry and Sandy not long after, and that's because Sue, Sandy's daughter, got a divorce and decided to move back home with her young son. And they moved into an apartment Sandy and Jerry had built next to the auto body shop. And Sue and Sandy really picked up right where they left off. They spent the day joking and gossiping while they were working. And Sue's son Tyler was actually the same age as Travis, the chimpanzee. So those two played a lot together as well. Cousins, you know, just playing with your normal cousin. Just having a good old time.

• 21:24Wes Larson?

  Charla Nash would also come visit sometimes and she would bring her daughter Brianna and they would play and bond with Travis as well. But Travis grew up pretty quickly. He started acting a bit on TV commercials. He became really famous around the town. He would eat meals with the Harrods. He loved lobster tail, Italian food, filet mignon, candy, ice cream.

• 21:46Jeff Larson?

  That would suck to like have a chimp that just likes the most expensive thing on the menu.

• 21:52Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Caviar. I do kind of get the feeling that they had more money than they knew what to do with. But they also like, didn't really wanna like, travel the world or buy really gaudy expensive things. So a little bit of lobster tail and filet mignon was like, pretty easy for them.

• 22:10Mike Smith?

  Okay.

• 22:11Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Sandy and Jerry, though, felt happier than they'd felt in a long, long time, but things were about to change. When Travis was around five years old, Sue, once again, found love and remarried. She had two more kids, and much to Sandy's horror, they decided to move again to North Carolina. And Sandy was crushed, but she would constantly write letters and send gifts to Sue and her family, and would treasure any response she got from her daughter. She would even like, seal up the letters and reread them over and over and over again. It took Sue a while to move-

• 22:43Mike Smith?

  Like, opening the letter again?

• 22:45Wes Larson?

  Uh, no, she would like, put it in like, a plastic sealed kinda thing, so that the letters wouldn't get lost or anything.

• 22:51Mike Smith?

  Like, when you get a really rare Pokemon card, maybe?

• 22:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 22:55Mike Smith?

  You wanna protect it?

• 22:55Wes Larson?

  Like, laminated but not laminated, like, in a little, yeah.

• 22:58Mike Smith?

  Alright.

• 22:59Wes Larson?

  That's all just to illustrate that she really, really loved her daughter. Like, her daughter was her whole world. Any kind of communication or whatever was so important to her, from her daughter. And during this time, Sue was kind of, she took a really long time to move all of her stuff from Connecticut down to North Carolina. So she was doing a lot of trips back and forth. In the year 2000, she was on one of these trips, and she was having some back pains, so she took a Percocet. And then that night, she left to drive back to North Carolina. Somewhere in Virginia, she went off the road and hit a tree. And she was ejected from the car, and killed instantly.

• 23:40Mike Smith?

  Oh, no.

• 23:42Wes Larson?

  And when Sandy got this news, her world just totally imploded. She became really depressed, she considered suicide, she distanced herself from her friends, from Sue's kids, and really, her whole world became Jerry and Travis. And at this point, Travis is already starting to age out of his adolescence and into adulthood, and he and Jerry would even share a glass of wine each night before bed. But with this newfound kind of adulthood came a new assertiveness and kind of a new bit of unpredictability. He wasn't just this like constantly happy, hooting, wonderful baby chimpanzee anymore. All right. In October of 2003, the little family was relaxing after

• 24:26Wes Larson?

  dinner, watching the World Series, when Jerry and Sandy realized they had to go to the tow shop for something. So they got into their RAV4 and Travis hopped in as well, and they did the same drive they'd done hundreds of times together. But when they got to an intersection in town and were stopped at a stoplight, for some reason, someone threw an empty plastic soda bottle through their open window and onto Travis's lap. And at this point, the 170-pound chimp grunted, unbuckled his seatbelt, opened the door, and shot out into the road in just his diaper. Oh, no. Wow. You gotta think, like, if you threw, like, a soda bottle through someone's window,

• 25:06Wes Larson?

  and then suddenly a huge chimpanzee just bolts out after you, that would be the scariest thing ever.

• 25:14Jeff Larson?

  I would assume they saw the chimpanzee, and that's why they throw an empty... I mean, that's why it makes sense to me to throw an empty bottle in the car, just to, like, interact with the chimp.

• 25:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that might be true. They might have just known that it was Sandy and Jerry, and that Travis was probably with them. But if you didn't know, that would be the surprise of a lifetime. So it would take Sandy, Jerry, and the police hours to corral Travis and get back in the car. And the whole incident was kind of funny, because Travis was just hooting and smacking cops on their butts and running around and doing tricks. And a huge crowd gathered to watch this big spectacle. But they couldn't get him back in the car. And the only reason he finally went back in the car is because he got bored, and he went back on his own, buckled his seatbelt, and was ready to go. So, I mean, it was like,

• 26:08Wes Larson?

  I think this was a big turning point for the Harolds, where they realized, we're not in full control of this chimpanzee anymore. You know, we have a wild animal living with us. And no one pressed any charges. And I think that's because Travis was a pretty big bulllicker, and all the police had photos of themselves with Travis. So they didn't really want him or the Harolds to get in trouble. But trouble was definitely brewing for this little family. And after this incident, it was all over national news. So Connecticut actually added what would come to be known as the Travis Amendment to their exotic animal laws. And it would require anyone with a pet primate over 50 pounds to hold a special permit. But because Travis was this local celebrity and no one really wanted to separate him

• 26:53Wes Larson?

  from his family, they kind of just let him be grandfathered in to the old way. And they let Sandy and Jerry keep Travis with the understanding that they were on really thin ice. And an animal control officer in Stamford actually talked to Sandy and did his best to explain the physical changes that were starting to happen to Travis and how highly sexualized and potentially violent chimpanzees can be as they enter adulthood. And that the Herald's were about to be living with a very different animal than the ones they were used to. And I like, the highly sexualized thing is something not to gloss over here. Male chimpanzees, when they're mating, they'll mate dozens of times per day. I mean, they really go for it.

• 27:36Mike Smith?

  Mike?

• 27:37Wes Larson?

  Yeah. What's that?

• 27:39Mike Smith?

  Couldn't be me. Mike?

• 27:41Wes Larson?

  Dozens? Come on.

• 27:46Mike Smith?

  At what point is it just not even fun anymore?

• 27:50Wes Larson?

  And with that, with that sexualization comes aggression. You know, that's just like, their body is being flooded with those hormones that lead to both of those things kind of being expressed.

• 28:02Mike Smith?

  Mike?

• 28:06Wes Larson?

  All right. Mike's feeling that aggression right now.

• 28:11Mike Smith?

  Yeah. No, I'm, I released that. He wants to mate with me.

• 28:15Wes Larson?

  Couple of weeks ago. I would, with you, Jeff, get over yourself. Maybe if your hair was actually pink still, but not interested.

• 28:24Mike Smith?

  Oh.

• 28:25Wes Larson?

  All right. What happened to it? It's only just very lightly pink now.

• 28:30Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 28:30Wes Larson?

  It's okay.

• 28:31Mike Smith?

  It just fades and I haven't been putting conditioner in it. I'm getting it cut tomorrow, so.

• 28:36Wes Larson?

  I like it still. There I go. There I go, complimenting. All right.

• 28:43Wes Larson?

  The Herald's were about to be living with a very different animal than the one they were used to. Jeff, we learned this when we did the chimp crazy episodes, but can you tell us about how old all the different actor chimps are, just in like, basic terms?

• 28:57Jeff Larson?

  Um, no.

• 29:00Wes Larson?

  You brought this up recently, you know this, like, how, when you see an actor chimpanzee, a chimpanzee in a commercial or a movie or whatever, you can bet that it is in what stage of its life?

• 29:13Jeff Larson?

  Adolescence.

• 29:15Wes Larson?

  Right.

• 29:15Jeff Larson?

  I brought that up. I didn't know that for sure.

• 29:18Wes Larson?

  A couple of episodes ago, how-

• 29:20Jeff Larson?

  Because didn't Tonka act to like, her frickin' twenties?

• 29:25Wes Larson?

  Not really. No, they generally retire these chimps once they hit adolescence and go into adulthood, and that's because they do become so much harder to control. And I think that's something that we didn't really realize growing up, is we saw all these chimpanzees in different movies and TV and whatnot, and we just kinda saw them as being this cute, bubbly, friendly animal. But that's because we're only seeing babies and adolescent chimpanzees. We're not seeing the adults, and the adults behave very differently. And they just become much more volatile and difficult to control. So Sandy and Jerry stopped taking Travis off the property much. Travis had to get used to a life confined to the house and often stuck in his room. And

• 30:07Wes Larson?

  now, all of the responsibility to entertain an adult chimpanzee fell to Sandy and Jerry. And while they did their best to create enrichment for Travis, he started becoming more sullen and having bigger mood swings. Mike?

• 30:21Mike Smith?

  Oh, man. It's less a swing and more just like a constant nadir of mood, you know? I'm waiting for that upswing, to be honest. It's been years.

• 30:30Jeff Larson?

  You guys do not want to see Mike if he hasn't mated 12 times a day.

• 30:36Mike Smith?

  Start running around town in my diaper, slapping cops on the butt.

• 30:40Jeff Larson?

  Doing backflips.

• 30:45Mike Smith?

  Sullenly. Maybe that's Benson Boone's problem. He just needs to have more sex. Yeah.

• 30:53Mike Smith?

  Stop doing so many backflips. Yeah.

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• 31:56Wes Larson?

  You know, after the holidays, I feel like things just kind of slow down. We ease into winter and it means more time at home, more time in a warm, cozy house and more time just to hang out with my dog. And for me, I want to be able to give my dog that same experience of just slowing down and having a really nice winter. And also having the energy that I have myself. And that's why we use Ollie. It's fresh, human-grade meals with real ingredients and five delicious, slow-cooked recipes. Now, I say delicious, I haven't tried them myself, but I have given my dog a lot of different types of food. And by far, Ollie looks the best, smells the best, and my dog responds with the best. And actually, Jessie was just in California fostering another dog, which we end up adopting, of course.

• 32:39Wes Larson?

  And that dog was very picky, but as soon as we put Ollie in front of her, she absolutely devoured it. She loved it and it really was just another great data point for us to show. How much dogs love Ollie. Ollie has tailored meal plans to meet your dog's specific needs. They're perfectly proportioned meals in mess-free packaging, and it even comes with a scoop and this really cool storage container for zero fridge stink. For me, a difference I've noticed in now both of our dogs after giving them Ollie is they're just much happier to eat, much more excited. They seem to have better energy and it's just a more enjoyable experience for them overall. So your dog's wellbeing starts with their food, and that's why Ollie delivers fresh, human-grade food that your dog will love. Head to Ollie.com/tooth.

• 33:23Wes Larson?

  Tell them all about your dog and use code TOOTH to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the very first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. That's O-L-L-I-E.com/tooth and use code TOOTH to get 60% off your first box. Tooth and Claw is brought to you by Remy. You know, it's 2026. I made some resolutions and one of them is just to take better care of myself. Getting a little older and I have to really be cognizant of that. And one of the things I really need to pay attention to are my teeth. I tend to clench and grind a lot at night, so much so that I've cracked my teeth in the past. And that's why I'm really excited to tell you guys about Remy.

• 34:07Wes Larson?

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• 34:50Wes Larson?

  They craft and ship you your custom-fit night guard and you get your night guard back and you start protecting your teeth. So start the new year right and use code TOOTH to get 50% off a purchase of a new night guard. That's 50% off at shop R E M I dot com slash tooth with code tooth. So again, if you've ever even considered getting a night guard, this is your best opportunity ever. Dentist-quality night guard for a fraction of the price. Go to shop R E M I dot com slash tooth with code tooth. Thank you, Remy, for sponsoring this episode. About a year after the incident at the intersection, Jerry starts to feel sick more and more. And then one day at work, he gets really sick and has some intense pain.

• 35:34Wes Larson?

  And some of his employees take him to the hospital. He was diagnosed with advanced stomach cancer, spent the next few weeks at the hospital with Sandy by his side, but he would never make it home. He knew he was dying. He told Sandy that when he was gone, she should take Travis to a sanctuary because he was too much to handle for just her. Meanwhile, at home, Travis is losing his mind without Jerry around. When Jerry would call to talk to Travis on the phone, he would get really upset and frustrated. And he would even pull pictures of Jerry down off of the wall and kiss them and hold them close to his chest. And just was really aggravated that he couldn't see his dad and he didn't know where his dad was.

• 36:15Wes Larson?

  And I think that's an important thing to realize is that these two had a very strong bond. And Travis cared deeply about Jerry and vice versa.

• 36:24Jeff Larson?

  They didn't try like the thing in movies and TV where you walk in the hospital and it's like, "Family only, please," and you say, "Oh, he is family."

• 36:34Wes Larson?

  He is family. And they're like, oh, that's actually a chimpanzee. Uh, no, I don't think they did. Should have. Jerry died in April of 2005, and it was the last sad domino in a series of events that would lead to Charla Nash having her face ripped off by a chimpanzee. All right, tiny bit of biology here. We went over chimps very extensively in our mo episode, as well as our chimp crazy episode. So I'm not going to rehash a ton here. We are going to do a little bit. They're the third largest non-human great ape. Can you guys name the great apes? King Kong. Gorillas? Sure. Yeah.

• 37:17Wes Larson?

  There's Bobo, Bobos? Not there. Benobos? Yeah, Benobos are one. So we got gorillas, Benobos. Oh, man, mandrills. Nope. Orangutan? I'm pretty sure. They're not. Orangutan is another one. Uh, and then chimpanzees. And humans, you can actually put humans in that category if you want. But yeah, those are the great apes. Mandrills are actually in the monkey family. They're closely related to bam, uh, baboons. The lesser apes are like the gibbons. But the great apes are the ones we just listed. Which one is the girl from Twilight? Girl, she's a spider monkey. Yeah, is that a? That's a monkey. Yep. It's not an ape.

• 38:01Wes Larson?

  That's a lesser ape? What are they called? Those ones lesser? Uh, so really quickly springs up a good point and something I just want to reiterate. Great point, Mike. All of these animals that we're talking about are primates, but monkeys and apes are separated. They are not, apes are not monkeys. Monkeys are not apes. They're different. They are all primates. Um, but they are in different, those are different groups. If you're calling like another human, a monkey, that's wrong. You should call him a primate. You should call him an ape or a primate. An ape. Yeah. You're an ape. So a more fitting nickname for Bella would maybe be like spider gorilla. Yeah, spider gibbon, spider chimp. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Won't make a lot of sense. All right.

• 38:46Wes Larson?

  Hop on chimp. So they are the third largest non-human great ape. Uh, hold on tight, chimp. Males on average.

• 38:58Wes Larson?

  Males on average are going to be between 90 and 135 pounds or 40 to 60 kilograms. So remember Travis is already 170 pounds in the story, so he's far larger than average. Yeah. Females tend to be a bit smaller, so there is a bit of sexual dimorphism. I can take a female. Kind of similar to the range you would see in like, no, you couldn't in humans. Human males and females, like that kind of size difference, not, it's not like glaringly obvious, but it is definitely a difference. They're born black with pale faces and their face darkens over time. Both males and females tend to have a fine white beard under their chin.

• 39:39Wes Larson?

  They're found throughout equatorial Africa and their range extends into 21 countries, though they're just barely hanging on in some of those countries. They definitely have some hotspots where they're hanging on, where they're doing a lot better than other places. They'll mostly eat vegetation and fruit and insects, but they're very opportunistic and will hunt and eat meat when it's available. Uh, growing up, I, I had this video series called Trials of Life when I was a kid. And the last segment in the last video showed chimpanzees hunting, catching and eating colobus monkeys while they're still alive. And it really left an impression on me. It was like too violent for me and I didn't think that existed in the natural world when I was that age.

• 40:23Wes Larson?

  And that was too much, seeing these monkeys like screaming as they were being eaten alive by chimpanzees was a little too visceral, maybe a little bit too like uncanny valley. I don't like it. Yeah. The main thing I wanted to go over though, is how smart and how social they are. So here's a few bullet points that I think illustrates how smart they are. And after each one, I want you guys to vote whether this is smart or not smart. Okay. We can just say smarter or stupid to make it easier. Okay. All right. Sure. They've passed the mirror test, which shows they are capable of self-awareness. When they look in a mirror, they know they're looking at themselves. It's not just like some other random animal. Smart or stupid?

• 41:09Jeff Larson?

  Smart.

• 41:10Wes Larson?

  Smart.

• 41:11Mike Smith?

  Greed.

• 41:11Jeff Larson?

  There's like, there's that clip I always see on my algorithm of a drunk guy who doesn't even realize his reflection is himself. And he keeps like punching it and trying to like, he's like, no, you get out of my way.

• 41:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah, there's definitely some overlap between the smartest chimpanzees and the dumbest humans.

• 41:34Wes Larson?

  All right. They have been used, they've been shown to use certain insects to treat wounds.

• 41:41Mike Smith?

  Smart or stupid?

• 41:42Jeff Larson?

  I think it's dumb, stupid, doesn't work.

• 41:47Wes Larson?

  Uh, it kind of does for them though. They're using ones that have like certain properties that help them treat their wounds.

• 41:52Jeff Larson?

  I thought you said maggots don't work in wounds.

• 41:56Wes Larson?

  Did I say that?

• 41:57Jeff Larson?

  I don't know.

• 42:02Wes Larson?

  They use tools for things like catching termites and ants and getting honey out of hives. And some chimpanzees even sharpened sticks with their teeth to spear bush babies in their holes in trees.

• 42:14Mike Smith?

  Stupid. That's dumb.

• 42:18Jeff Larson?

  That's smart.

• 42:19Wes Larson?

  I think it's smart. This is kind of the like breakthrough that Jane Goodall had was she showed chimpanzees using like blades of grass to fish termites out of their mounds. Uh, and tool use and in animals, even though we're discovering more and more animals use tools, it does show kind of a higher level of an intelligence.

• 42:35Mike Smith?

  Well.

• 42:35Wes Larson?

  Mike, why do you think it's stupid?

• 42:37Jeff Larson?

  I was gonna answer that.

• 42:39Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 42:39Mike Smith?

  Okay. Yeah, Jeff, this show is yours. Go ahead.

• 42:44Wes Larson?

  Stage is set.

• 42:47Jeff Larson?

  Because Mike thinks they should use a gun, but he doesn't realize how small bush babies are. Like a gun would destroy most of what they're gonna eat.

• 42:56Mike Smith?

  That actually brings up a good point. You, you said bullet points. You have bullet points, Wes. Remember when the NBA team, uh, the bullets was changed to the Wizards to like promote more of a nonviolent message? Should we start calling them wizard points?

• 43:09Wes Larson?

  Sure. These are my wizard points.

• 43:13Mike Smith?

  Uh, no. That's all I've got to say on the matter.

• 43:17Wes Larson?

  All right. I think it's smart. I think all these are smart. They have a good photographic memory and one chimpanzee was shown jumbled digits on a screen for less than a quarter of a second and was able to remember their positions better than humans that were tested with the same test. So not all chimpanzees are able to do this immediately, but some of them have such good photographic memories that like this screen with numbers can appear for a quarter of a second and then it remembers exactly where all the numbers were.

• 43:44Jeff Larson?

  Wow. Yeah, I don't think I could do that.

• 43:46Mike Smith?

  It's like those Severance guys.

• 43:48Wes Larson?

  All right. So we all think it's smart. Uh, next one. They like being tickled when they're happy. Smart or stupid? This is maybe the one that I think is stupid.

• 44:00Jeff Larson?

  I think it's smart. Okay. Because most animals wouldn't. Most animals would be like, oh, it's trying to hurt me. Yeah. They figured out we're not trying to hurt them.

• 44:09Wes Larson?

  Mike, what do you think?

• 44:11Mike Smith?

  I think it's a little stupid. I think you're, yeah, leaving yourself a little vulnerable.

• 44:17Wes Larson?

  This is the

• 44:17Mike Smith?

  Showing signs of weakness or something.

• 44:19Wes Larson?

  The only one that I think is stupid because I really don't like being tickled. So I don't, yeah. It makes me unhappy.

• 44:26Jeff Larson?

  The only thing I think they're really stupid for is all those times we like put a hundred of them in a room to write a book and they haven't wrote one book yet.

• 44:36Wes Larson?

  They will over time though.

• 44:37Mike Smith?

  Shakespeare.

• 44:37Wes Larson?

  They will. If you give them enough time, they'll write the complete works of Shakespeare. All right. A captive chimpanzee learned over 350 American Sign Language signs and even spontaneously taught some of those signs to her son.

• 44:51Mike Smith?

  It's more than I know.

• 44:52Wes Larson?

  It's pretty smart. That to me is like the smartest thing they've done. Jeff, smart, stupid?

• 44:58Jeff Larson?

  I wasn't listening to that one.

• 45:00Wes Larson?

  Okay. As far as their social, that's the end of that game. As far as their social structure.

• 45:06Jeff Larson?

  Typing, I'm sorry.

• 45:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it's okay. Thank goodness. That's what you're usually thinking of. I forgot that that was a trigger for you. As far as their social structure is concerned, it's really complex. And that's because they often live in large groups of up to 100 individuals. And they have what's called a fission fusion society. And to dumb that down a little bit, this isn't like the smart way of explaining this, but it, or the elongated way of explaining it. But basically, it just means that small groups are constantly forming and splitting off of that big group and then rejoining. So they're constantly like forming these like hunting parties or maternal groups or whatever

• 45:48Wes Larson?

  else mating groups that kind of split off and then rejoin and split off and rejoin. And it really means that there's like a lot of fluidity in these big groups.

• 45:59Jeff Larson?

  That's interesting.

• 46:00Wes Larson?

  Yeah, it comes with a lot of-

• 46:01Jeff Larson?

  That like seems like high school, you know, where you have like your little like-

• 46:05Wes Larson?

  Clicks.

• 46:06Jeff Larson?

  Clicks, but then like they'll be part of a bigger click and they kind of, you know?

• 46:10Wes Larson?

  That's true. Yeah, it's a good point. And just like high school, that comes with a lot of different hierarchy and dominance changes. So the basic lesson that I want to illustrate here is that chimpanzees have to be very socially aware because their groups are quite dynamic in the wild. And I think that really is important when you talk about then a chimpanzee being socialized with humans because that is still built into its genetics. Speaking of genetics, really quickly chimpanzee evolution. There's still a fair amount of debate over ape evolution and the time periods and whatnot. But I want to give you guys a really simplified version of it because I think it's really interesting and probably speaks to why you see human chimpanzee bonds more than you would

• 46:53Wes Larson?

  see like human and gorilla bonds or human and orangutan bonds. Okay. So we're going to picture a big, thick branch coming off of a tree. That branch represents the common ancestry of all the great apes. The first branch coming off of it would be the common ancestor of the orangutans. That split happened somewhere around 14 million years ago, and all these dates are give or take a few million years. The next branch is the common ancestor of the gorillas that happened about seven million years ago. And humans, chimpanzees, and bonobos only diverged about four to six million years ago. So the interesting thing about that is it makes chimpanzees our closest

• 47:33Wes Larson?

  living relative of all of the great apes and of all the animals. And I think it maybe speaks to why people can form such intense bonds with pet chimpanzees. Because it is, there's a lot of similarities to like raising a human being when you're raising a pet chimpanzee.

• 47:50Jeff Larson?

  And to be honest, chimpanzees can form really strong bonds to us, too. Like, I feel like, I feel like dogs definitely do as well, but like, having, just what you were saying about Travis, like, hugging the photo, couldn't take that, what was the guy's name?

• 48:10Wes Larson?

  Jerry.

• 48:10Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, couldn't take that Jerry wasn't there, just was devastated. And that feels like real, like grief from a chimp, you know? So that's pretty unique.

• 48:22Wes Larson?

  And the difference is dogs, we've socialized to be part of our groups, but this is genetic. Like, there is a genetic similarity, makes them easier to bond with us. So chimpanzees and bonobos are the two that are the closest related, but then we, like us and chimpanzees would be the next closest relation, which I think is really interesting. All right.

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• 49:43Mike Smith?

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• 51:14Mike Smith?

  So I just had almost three weeks home alone with my cat, Toad, and I am more obsessed with him than I ever have been. He's just so sweet.

• 51:22Wes Larson?

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• 52:06Wes Larson?

  60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com/tooth. Smalls cat food is protein-packed recipes made with preservative-free ingredients that you'd find in your fridge, and it's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. Cats.com is like, you know, that's, you don't get higher than that. And they're saying it's their best overall cat food. So again, make 2026 your cat's healthiest year and take advantage of their new year's special and get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com/tooth. One last time, that's 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com/tooth.

• 52:48Wes Larson?

  After Jerry's death, Sandy enters a much darker depression. She pretty much cuts off all communication with her friends and family. She starts going on these shopping sprees at TJ Maxx and Marshalls and somehow at those stores spends hundreds of thousands of dollars and becomes a bit of a hoarder. I feel like you could buy a TJ Maxx for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah, right. But there are photos from this time of her home and there's just shopping bags everywhere. And she'd buy stuff for herself and Travis, but it would all just kind of sit in certain rooms of the house. And it made it so really only like her room and Travis's room were the open areas where they had any move, any room to move around.

• 53:30Wes Larson?

  She mostly just spent a lot of time at home with Travis, crying, missing Jerry, missing Sue, and Travis also entered into depression without Jerry, and he spent a lot of time just rocking back and forth in his cage. Around this time, one person that Sandy did let into her life was her old friend, Charla Nash. Charla had been working odd jobs and traveling around with her daughter, and even spent some time in a homeless shelter, so Sandy kind of took her under her wing and let them move into Sue's old apartment rent-free. She gave Charla a job doing bookkeeping for her businesses, and that job kind of just morphed into a bunch of stuff, and Charla would spend time tending to Sandy's house or their property,

• 54:12Wes Larson?

  or even watching Travis if Sandy needed to go somewhere and wasn't able to watch him. So by early 2008, Travis was 14, and he's no longer the cute bubbly baby chimpanzee he used to be. He's obese for a chimpanzee, he weighs 240 pounds. He's five feet tall when he stands up, and his face had turned black and his torso had grayed. So he kind of went from looking like Bubbles the chimpanzee to Koba the chimpanzee. You guys remember both of them. I mean, he looks very different than he did as a baby.

• 54:46Jeff Larson?

  I'm glad you said rocking back and forth in his cage.

• 54:51Jeff Larson?

  I thought you were just gonna say rocking.

• 54:53Wes Larson?

  Rocking. Just rocking, yeah. Sandy knew she was in over her head. She'd even drafted letters to chimpanzee sanctuaries, but she never sent them. Travis was the last remaining member of her family, and I think deep down, she knew that she was never gonna let him go. On February 16th, 2009, Sandy's having a big problem with Travis. She'd gone into his room to clean, and while she was in there, Travis went to the kitchen and stole her car keys, and was now out in the front yard, running between the two cars, basically telling Sandy that he wanted to go for a ride. And he's not allowed to go for rides anymore because of the incident in the intersection, but he's just agitated, he's been agitated all day.

• 55:37Wes Larson?

  He's refusing food, ignoring Sandy and the other pets, and she was even so worried that she put some Xanax in his morning tea to try and calm him down. Which with medications, you don't know what kind of effect they're going to have on an animal, even people sometimes. So it's not necessarily the best move. Sandy had made plans to meet a friend that afternoon and she called that friend and told her she was gonna be late because Travis was out of control. He wanted to go for a ride and he had stolen her keys. And around that same time, Charla Nash had called Sandy. And while Sandy asserted that Charla volunteered to come help with Travis, Charla would later say that she was asked to come help. But either way, regardless of who, you know, like what order that happened

• 56:22Wes Larson?

  in, Charla headed over to Sandy's house after the phone call to help her control Travis and get her keys back. And on the way, Charla had picked up an Elmo doll because Travis loved Elmo and she thought it might be a good distraction and a good way to convince him to go back inside. One other detail that could be important, but maybe not, is that Charla had a new or Charla had a new hairstyle that Travis hadn't seen at this point. All right. When she pulled up to the house, Charla got out of the car with the Elmo doll and walked toward Travis with the doll in front of her face. And something about this, whether it was the doll in front of her face, the new hairstyle, just the fact that he was already overly agitated, the Xanax, who knows?

• 57:07Wes Larson?

  But something about this interaction enraged this 200-pound chimpanzee. He's about 35 feet away from Charla and he charged, first on his feet and knuckles, and then just on two legs, with his arms swinging through the air. And Sandy saw all of this from the front of the house and she screamed, Travis, Travis, Travis, what are you doing? Travis, stop. Travis, it's Charla. Kind of like Shia LaBeouf, how he attacks people. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of similarities here. Uh, but her screams did nothing to stop the angry, depressed, and massive chimpanzee. Travis slammed into Charla, hurling her into

• 57:49Wes Larson?

  the side of the car and then onto the ground, and then tearing into her with his fingers and teeth, while both human and chimpanzee's screams filled the air. Sandy grabs a snow shovel. She runs at Travis, hitting him repeatedly, but he just kept screaming and tearing and biting at Charla. Blood was already everywhere, all over Charla, all over Travis's face, down the side of the car, and spilling onto the frozen ground. So now Sandy runs screaming into the house and without thinking she grabs a butcher knife and then runs back out still screaming, plunges the butcher knife into Travis's back. He doesn't even flinch, but just keeps biting and tearing and pulling and ripping at Charla's

• 58:30Wes Larson?

  face. Sandy stabs him twice more, and after the third stab Travis turns and looks at Sandy directly in the face. His entire muzzle is covered in blood and bits of skin and tissue. And Sandy can now see past him and down to her friend on the ground. And Charla's face had been almost entirely removed by the chimpanzee's teeth and hands and now is just a wet, bloody, pulpy mess where her features had previously been.

• 58:59Jeff Larson?

  Oh my god.

• 59:00Wes Larson?

  So she thinks her friend is dead. Travis turns back to Charla. Sandy runs into the house screaming. She picks up the phone to call the police. And I want to read part of the transcript from their nearly 12-minute call, and we'll probably play a little bit of this too. So here's what she said to the police. She says, "Send the police." The emergency operator says, "What's the problem there?" "The chimp, the chimp killed my friend." "What's wrong with your friend?" "Oh, please, send the police with the gun, with the gun, hurry up." "Who has the gun?" "Please hurry up, please hurry up, he's killing my girlfriend." Then they try and calm her down to really, this operator's having a hard time understanding what's going on. He says, "What's the problem?" And she says, "He's killing my friend." "Who's killing your friend?"

• 59:45Wes Larson?

  "Chimp, my chimpanzee." "Oh, your chimpanzee is killing your friend?" "Yes, he ripped her apart, hurry up, hurry up, please." Then this operator says, "What's going on? What is the monkey doing? Tell me what the monkey's doing." "He ripped her face off." "He ripped her face off?" "Gun, they've got to shoot him, please, please hurry, please." And she goes on to say, the operator says, "I need you to calm down, they're on their way." And she says, "I can't, I can't, he's eating her, he's eating her." And then she just keeps kind of saying like, "Please, God, where are they, where are they?"

• 1:00:20Speaker 07

  Send the police!

• 1:00:22Wes Larson?

  What's the problem there?

• 1:00:24Speaker 07

  The kids killed my, my friend. Lock your doors on your car and stay there with me. It don't matter. It don't matter. It don't matter. He will rip the doors right open. Just do what I'm telling you to. Stay in the car. The police officers will handle it. He's not dead. He's not dead. Oh, God. Oh, God.

• 1:00:46Wes Larson?

  So this takes 12 minutes for the police to show up. When the first responding officers respond, uh, some of them did know Sandy and Travis. So they kind of, even though they had heard monkey go out over the call, they knew what they were walking into. And Frank Shiafarri was one of the first on the scene. And as he pulled into the property, it didn't take him long to see Travis and the carnage that Travis had left behind. Charla Nash was laying on the ground, unconscious, mostly naked and almost unrecognizable. And as soon as Travis clocked the police cruiser, he ran toward it. Immediately he knocks off the rearview mirror. He tries opening the passenger side door. And when he finds it locked, he goes to the driver's side door. And according to this,

• 1:01:29Wes Larson?

  this officer rips the door off of the cruiser.

• 1:01:33Jeff Larson?

  Really wanted to go on that ride.

• 1:01:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah, he really wanted to get in a car. That honestly could be what he was trying to do. Who knows? But as he does this, the officer inside Frank Shiafarri lurches toward the passenger side of the vehicle, kind of gets caught up in that big computer thing they have in the middle of their cars. And Travis leans in, bares his teeth that are still streaked and dripping with blood. And Frank pulls out his gun and fires four rounds.

• 1:01:59Jeff Larson?

  Man.

• 1:02:00Wes Larson?

  Travis takes a few steps backward, screams, takes a shit and runs off. Oh, no. Clean that up. Yeah.

• 1:02:11Jeff Larson?

  Tearing the door off is so insane.

• 1:02:13Wes Larson?

  Yeah. It's unbelievable.

• 1:02:15Jeff Larson?

  I think Vin Diesel might have done that once, but that's the only time I can think of anyone doing that.

• 1:02:22Wes Larson?

  If Vin got shot in those four times, though, he would just like, kind of turn his shoulder a little bit.

• 1:02:28Jeff Larson?

  That's true.

• 1:02:30Wes Larson?

  Sandy is meanwhile locked inside of one of the other cars. That's where she's secured herself. She hears the shots and she watches as Travis runs inside. And she tells emergency services on the other end that he's still alive. But she was wrong. Travis had walked on his knuckles through the kitchen, the bedroom, and into his own room where he fell over and died.

• 1:02:52Wes Larson?

  And it's, it's funny for me, like I

• 1:02:55Jeff Larson?

  It is funny.

• 1:02:57Wes Larson?

  No, that's not funny. Going over this story a bunch of times already. I never really, I felt bad for Travis, but it didn't really hit me. How sad his story is and preparing this episode, it made me really sad. I was kind of just like, that really sucks. That he had this happy life and that he didn't understand why it was all taken away from him. And I see him and Charlotte as the victims here, you know, like it's really, really sad.

• 1:03:26Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, no, like, I do think it wasn't just Travis was their family, but also Travis felt like they were his family. And it'd be so hard to have your dad just die and you don't really understand why you didn't get to see him again.

• 1:03:45Wes Larson?

  He just disappeared.

• 1:03:47Jeff Larson?

  Then your whole life changes. You're in your cage more often. You're going through puberty and no one is explaining to you what's happening.

• 1:03:57Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Jeff Larson?

  And you just want to go on a ride. And, but rightfully for Sandra, like if your kid's throwing a tantrum, you can't always give them what they want.

• 1:04:07Wes Larson?

  Yeah. It always, it makes me think like, if Jesse were to ever die, I would want our dog to die with her. Because I would feel so sad all the time. Looking at my dog and not being able to explain to her why Jesse is gone. No. And that like, that's how I feel about Travis is like, he loved these people. He loved Sue. He loved Jerry and he lost them both and he didn't know why. And that's like really, really sad.

• 1:04:38Mike Smith?

  I remember when in the chimp crazy documentary, I forget if it was Travis's story or if it was another chimp. But at the end of just a tortuous life. There is a moment where the policeman or whoever it was that pulled the trigger on the other end, they made this connection with each other and the policeman felt it felt like the chimp wanted to end the suffering. They wanted that trigger to be pulled and to just be put out of their misery. And that was just a really emotionally devastating moment.

• 1:05:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah, that's

• 1:05:07Mike Smith?

  To like, consider that.

• 1:05:08Wes Larson?

  No, go ahead. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

• 1:05:10Mike Smith?

  I was just gonna say like that a chimp that's so at the end of its emotional chain that it's looking for an escape, you know? And I don't know. I guess we can't say for sure that that's what the chimp is thinking. But I mean, he put it the way Jeff did where everything was just taken away and nothing's explained and nothing makes sense. It's

• 1:05:27Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Mike Smith?

  Yeah, just looking for any kind of escape.

• 1:05:30Wes Larson?

  That's what this Frank Shifari guy said on the guy that killed Travis is that he he says that he is certain that they had that connection and that Travis was saying, kill me like I want this to be over.

• 1:05:43Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:44Wes Larson?

  So when he leaves his car, his cruiser and goes looking around, he sees pieces of scalp, skin, fingers and other body parts scattered around the ground and a growing pool of blood around the body. As he approaches Charla Nash, she reaches out with a bloody stump where her hand used to be, and she tries grabbing Frank's foot. She's rushed to the hospital where she'd get over seven hours of emergency surgery just to stabilize her by four groups of surgeons. She'd lost her eyelids, her nose, her lower jaw and her scalp, and he had pummeled the bones of her face to a point that there was almost no structure, had removed one of her hands completely and four of the five fingers on the other hand. Both eyes became infected in

• 1:06:28Wes Larson?

  the attack and she lost her eyesight. Some of the medical workers that assisted with her procedures following the attack would need special counseling and therapy just to process the extreme nature of her injuries. Her family very quickly would open a $50 million lawsuit against Sandy. Ultimately, Charla would be awarded $4 million. She would go on to have facial reconstruction surgery and she would become an advocate for exotic animal ownership laws. We're gonna leave her from this point onward, just because I think she's been under the public eye so much and there's been so much scrutiny that I don't want to like go too much into her recovery, but it's been a long, hard road for her.

• 1:07:11Mike Smith?

  Miraculous that she was able to survive. Like, yeah.

• 1:07:16Wes Larson?

  It really is.

• 1:07:18Mike Smith?

  Unbelievable work by that medical team.

• 1:07:20Wes Larson?

  Yeah. Following the attack, Sandy retreats into her home. She really doesn't speak to the press or even try to clarify what had happened much. The big question remained if she was more upset about losing Travis or the attack on Charla. And she did answer that to friends by saying, "Well, I stabbed him. You know, I was trying to kill him." And I do think like, the emergency call transcript where she's just like, "They need to get here. They need to kill him," answers that question. Like, she cared more about her friend that was being killed by her chimpanzee than her chimpanzee. So I don't think it's too, like, super fair. But she did really miss Travis. She didn't clean up the blood in his room. She also put in a big stuffed chimpanzee doll in

• 1:08:03Wes Larson?

  his room. She continued shopping excessively and hoarding, tried to put a new life together. But whenever she would talk to friends, she would just end up crying about Travis. She started feeding local deer and raccoons. But then in a last ditch effort to just feel anything, she went 50/50 on another baby chimpanzee with the chimp trainer in Florida. And she knew she would never be able to have this chimpanzee in her house or bring it home, but she paid for half of it. And it was, for all intents and purposes, half her chimpanzee. We went over that pretty extensively in the Chimp Crazy episodes, but it's pretty insane to me. It's like, someone that has not learned their lesson, unfortunately. But when you're

• 1:08:46Wes Larson?

  that sad, you do crazy things, you know? Just do. Maybe get a dog. Maybe get a cat. Yeah, yeah. Anything. Reach out to your grandkids, you know? Get a gorilla. Yeah, not a gorilla. I don't think a gorilla would be better.

• 1:09:01Mike Smith?

  A gorilla?

• 1:09:01Wes Larson?

  A gorilla. Gorilla.

• 1:09:04Wes Larson?

  They named this new baby Chance. Sandy went out to Florida to visit and got very emotional, giving little baby Chance a hug. But then in May of 2010, a little more than a year after the attack, Sandy started having some intense chest pain, called a friend who ended up taking her to the hospital, and it turned out her aorta had ruptured and Sandy died in emergency surgery. She was buried next to Jerry, and inside of her coffin, they placed the urn with Sue's remains, her daughter, and on the other side of her body, the urn with Travis's remains. And that ends the tragic story of Travis the chimpanzee. You guys got any questions?

• 1:09:44Mike Smith?

  It's a tough one.

• 1:09:45Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:46Mike Smith?

  That's sad.

• 1:09:47Jeff Larson?

  Do you think this was just kind of bad luck, or do you think people made mistakes?

• 1:09:52Wes Larson?

  I think people made some pretty big mistakes.

• 1:09:56Wes Larson?

  It's a crazy question for the end of this episode. Uh, yeah, I think it's a mistake to keep a chimpanzee in your house regardless. Uh, I think we've learned that that almost always goes poorly, especially when there's not other chimpanzees around. But yeah, there's mistakes, mistakes were made. Okay, let's hear it.

• 1:10:15Jeff Larson?

  Counter argument.

• 1:10:16Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Jeff Larson?

  She owned two chimps, and one of them didn't rip her friend's face off.

• 1:10:22Wes Larson?

  The second one, Chance?

• 1:10:23Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:24Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I mean, she only had Chance for a year.

• 1:10:27Mike Smith?

  Like 50/50.

• 1:10:28Wes Larson?

  I can't remember. Chance died, um, and it wasn't, there was something, something happened with Chance. So, life doesn't usually go really well for these chimpanzees in captivity. It's not a good thing. We've learned.

• 1:10:42Mike Smith?

  It seems like the very best case scenario is they start acting up and then they're taken away before anything truly terrible can happen. But it, yeah, I never heard, I don't know, maybe there, are there stories out there where a chimp just lives to a nice, ripe old age and dies without any

• 1:10:59Wes Larson?

  I don't know of any.

• 1:11:00Mike Smith?

  thing terrible happening?

• 1:11:01Jeff Larson?

  Honestly, I mean, obviously, I think it's bad. I was joking, but I do think Tonka would have been that example. Like, it seemed like Tonka, even for an older chimp, was pretty chill.

• 1:11:13Wes Larson?

  See, I disagree, because Tonka was like rocking back and forth in his little tiny cage. And when Tanya would bring like a phone to the window, he would just have to like sit there and depressed, stare at photos of other chimpanzees. I don't think, I don't think a human family is enough for a chimpanzee. I think they have more complex social requirements than that.

• 1:11:35Jeff Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:11:36Wes Larson?

  And I don't think you can give them the space that they need either.

• 1:11:39Jeff Larson?

  Well, I wasn't saying this like.

• 1:11:41Wes Larson?

  And stuff.

• 1:11:42Jeff Larson?

  A good life, but I'm saying I don't, I don't think it would have ended in tragedy in that one case. But I don't know.

• 1:11:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:51Jeff Larson?

  Like it could have, it was a chimpanzee.

• 1:11:53Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I kind of think it would have, but I don't know. Yeah.

• 1:11:56Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. She was afraid of Tonka too. It's like she, she wasn't like, it's like, yeah, this is my daughter, but also, or was it Tonka a boy or girl?

• 1:12:05Wes Larson?

  Tonka was a boy.

• 1:12:06Jeff Larson?

  Boy. This is my son, even though I have a son and my son might bite my finger off any day.

• 1:12:14Wes Larson?

  Yeah. All right. Yeah, don't do it. I don't, I don't. There's better things to spend 50 grand on or 40 grand or whatever. And, uh.

• 1:12:24Jeff Larson?

  I love thinking that someone listening right now was going to get a chimpanzee until that right there.

• 1:12:31Wes Larson?

  Their mouse is hovering over the two day delivery Amazon button.

• 1:12:37Jeff Larson?

  They're like, can I still, can I still cancel this order?

• 1:12:43Wes Larson?

  All right, let's move on to our categories. Um, yes. Our first one is your favorite Travis from the world of pop culture.

• 1:12:51Jeff Larson?

  I felt like I maybe could have, if I really thought about it, thought of a better answer, but the one I want to say is Travis Barker. Because I never got like super huge into music like you guys. And I was more definitely just like mainstream bands and music. And so for me, Travis Barker was the only person in a band where the drummer was easily the most famous member of that band. And especially bands I liked. So I thought it's kind of cool to have like a drummer be like the main star of a band.

• 1:13:34Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Mike Smith?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Wes Larson?

  He's, he's an incredible drummer too, like one of the all time bests. So I think that's a good pick.

• 1:13:40Jeff Larson?

  Which is like so interesting because they're like lyrics are so basic and like, let's just make money and then they just have one of the best drummers ever.

• 1:13:50Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I love Blink though. I'm a fan.

• 1:13:52Jeff Larson?

  I know, but it's still like,

• 1:13:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:54Jeff Larson?

  Fell in love with a girl at the rock show.

• 1:14:00Wes Larson?

  Fair enough.

• 1:14:01Jeff Larson?

  Excited for my first date. What I don't know. Like a lot of their songs are just like very,

• 1:14:08Wes Larson?

  bubblegummy. Yeah.

• 1:14:09Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:10Wes Larson?

  Mike, who's your favorite Travis?

• 1:14:12Mike Smith?

  I'm gonna stay on the music tack and say Travis Scott. I know a bit of a controversy surrounding him in multiple different parts of his life, but um, specifically his album Rodeo, I think is one of the best trap albums, maybe I probably my favorite. I don't know if best is always a weird word to ascribe to anything, but um, man, rodeo, some of my all time favorite tracks. I haven't really gotten into any of his later stuff or earlier stuff, but that one album is pretty infallible in my ears, in my eyes.

• 1:14:46Jeff Larson?

  Who's your least favorite Travis?

• 1:14:49Mike Smith?

  Travis, who's this Travis Tritt guy? I'm not gonna say who you want me to say.

• 1:14:54Jeff Larson?

  That guy's alley-ooping you there.

• 1:14:57Mike Smith?

  I know. I don't wanna, I don't wanna get into it.

• 1:14:59Wes Larson?

  We're not doing it. All right. I, I kind of, I had a hard time deciding between two. One was Travis Pastrana, who, I don't know anything about him personally, or if he's a good person or not, but I just remember him doing some of the craziest stunts ever. Like jumping out of an airplane with no parachute.

• 1:15:17Jeff Larson?

  That's what I was gonna say. He did the, he did the point break thing in real life.

• 1:15:23Wes Larson?

  That's pretty impressive to do that. And then the other one I thought I was Travis Fimmel or Fimmel. He's the guy that played Ragnar Lothbrok in the Vikings series. I feel like he hasn't had a huge career since, but he still pops up here and there. But that, I loved that show pretty much up until he left it. Cause he was just such like an anchoring, amazing part of it and so good in his role. So I think it's like a really good show with him in it. So that's who I picked. All right.

• 1:15:55Mike Smith?

  Shout out Travis Tritt. I don't know. You might be a great guy. You're not my least favorite.

• 1:16:01Wes Larson?

  All right. I had top three primates you want to see in the wild. We've seen a few together. We saw orangutans. We've seen some monkeys. What are your top three?

• 1:16:10Jeff Larson?

  Primates include apes and apes.

• 1:16:15Wes Larson?

  Apes and monkeys. Yeah.

• 1:16:18Jeff Larson?

  I would go, I want to see one of those golden monkeys in China. What are they called? The super fluffy ones that don't look real.

• 1:16:28Wes Larson?

  The golden langurs?

• 1:16:30Jeff Larson?

  No, like the super like.

• 1:16:32Wes Larson?

  The Chinese snub nose monkey.

• 1:16:34Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:34Wes Larson?

  That's, that's one of my picks.

• 1:16:36Jeff Larson?

  Chinese snub.

• 1:16:37Wes Larson?

  With the blue faces and the.

• 1:16:39Jeff Larson?

  I want to see a mandrill and I want to see a colobus.

• 1:16:44Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:16:45Jeff Larson?

  Shoot me.

• 1:16:47Mike Smith?

  I will. I will. Just give me a minute. I'll go with gorilla baboon and one other one. I don't care.

• 1:16:54Wes Larson?

  You've seen a baboon.

• 1:16:55Mike Smith?

  Yeah, but I'll see another one.

• 1:16:57Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:17:00Wes Larson?

  Baboon and one other. I don't care. Love it. All right. Jeff, we had two of the same. I want the Chinese snub nose monkey and the mandrill. My other one is gorilla. So Mike, we had gorilla the same too. Yeah.

• 1:17:13Mike Smith?

  Nice.

• 1:17:13Jeff Larson?

  I'd love to see some gorillas.

• 1:17:16Wes Larson?

  Okay.

• 1:17:17Mike Smith?

  That's sad, but yeah.

• 1:17:20Jeff Larson?

  Mike, what about like those monkeys in Japan that go in the hot springs?

• 1:17:28Mike Smith?

  I don't want to be in a hot spring with a monkey.

• 1:17:30Jeff Larson?

  Would you want to see him in one? Or would you be pissed that they're like in the hot springs?

• 1:17:35Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Mike Smith?

  I don't know what I feel about that, but I don't want to be there with one.

• 1:17:39Wes Larson?

  Yeah, their red faces in the heated water kind of has a weird feeling to me, even though their faces are just red anyways. I've never really done that.

• 1:17:48Mike Smith?

  This is a group of animals that just makes me uneasy.

• 1:17:51Wes Larson?

  I'm kind of tired of, of macaques anyways. Like I feel like everywhere you go, there's macaques and I've had my fill. All right. I got a, it came from Cora.

• 1:18:02Wes Larson?

  This is a funny, a question that I found to be funny. Not so much the answers, but the question was good. Do you think Travis the chimp went to hell or heaven? Let's discuss that.

• 1:18:15Wes Larson?

  The answers were just like very literal on who makes it to hell in heaven. A lot of scriptures that were referenced. So the answers weren't that great, but what do you guys think?

• 1:18:26Jeff Larson?

  It's interesting. I mean, what there's the scripture that all dogs go to heaven.

• 1:18:33Wes Larson?

  I don't think that's.

• 1:18:34Jeff Larson?

  So even bad dogs go to heaven, like even dogs have killed way more people than Travis and.

• 1:18:41Wes Larson?

  That's true.

• 1:18:41Jeff Larson?

  They all go to heaven.

• 1:18:43Wes Larson?

  I think he's in heaven if heaven exists.

• 1:18:46Jeff Larson?

  But I mean, Travis is smarter than a dog.

• 1:18:49Wes Larson?

  Yeah. I think he didn't know it was Charla or Charla. I think the Elmo doll in front of the face is probably the big thing where he just didn't realize what was coming at him. That makes it better.

• 1:19:00Jeff Larson?

  Like, I don't know, it's kind of evil to want to kill Elmo too.

• 1:19:06Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:07Jeff Larson?

  Like Elmo's, what did Elmo ever do?

• 1:19:11Wes Larson?

  I think Travis had some pretty serious mental illness going on, so I'm not going to blame him.

• 1:19:17Jeff Larson?

  But yeah, you think he gets off on like the psycho thing?

• 1:19:21Wes Larson?

  I think he does more than people even. Yeah. He's an animal. I think animals are going to make it to heaven, probably all of them.

• 1:19:30Jeff Larson?

  Sharks?

• 1:19:31Wes Larson?

  Yeah, sharks especially.

• 1:19:33Jeff Larson?

  That'd be crazy. You have sharks in heaven.

• 1:19:35Wes Larson?

  Is there water in heaven? Sure, there's got to be water in heaven, right? That was a bad, I asked a bad question.

• 1:19:41Jeff Larson?

  What are?

• 1:19:42Wes Larson?

  You're right.

• 1:19:43Jeff Larson?

  Like sharks aren't going to eat things in heaven, are they?

• 1:19:46Wes Larson?

  I don't know. That's a good question.

• 1:19:48Jeff Larson?

  That's like all they do.

• 1:19:50Wes Larson?

  You know, this heaven thing's really falling apart the more we talk about it.

• 1:19:56Wes Larson?

  Mike, what do you think? Is Travis making it to heaven or hell? Uh, yeah, sure. Yeah, I'll, I want him to be there. Mike's just done with categories. All right. I just, I don't know.

• 1:20:08Jeff Larson?

  I'll tell you this, if Travis is going to hell, that's where I want to be too.

• 1:20:12Wes Larson?

  All right, fair enough. Okay, a quick let's argue with the question mark on the end. I don't know if we're actually gonna argue because I could see us all agreeing on this. My argument-

• 1:20:23Jeff Larson?

  I'll take the other side. I don't care.

• 1:20:24Wes Larson?

  Okay. Surprise parties are bad, is what I think. Travis got surprised, didn't go well. I think surprise parties in general are just aren't fun and bad for either the people that have to do the surprising and the person that's being surprised. I just prefer not to have one. It's really unfair. It's really unfair?

• 1:20:47Jeff Larson?

  That's why you spoiled mine in India.

• 1:20:51Wes Larson?

  Didn't mean to.

• 1:20:53Wes Larson?

  Why do you think it's really unfair, Mike? Because all of a sudden, it kind of turns into your responsibility to make sure that everyone that planned the surprise party feels like that was a success. And I'm not gonna give you the reaction that you're hoping for. I just, I promise you, I'm not. And then all of a sudden, it's like, I kind of feel like the bad guy, and I didn't want all of you over at my house. How'd you even learn where I live? I don't want you there. Get out of there. For me, my main argument- Leave the cake, though. Is like, I really like the anticipation of a fun event as much as I like the event itself. And I feel like if you're being surprised, you kind of go through your whole day, like if it's your birthday or something, thinking like, oh, everyone forgot my birthday.

• 1:21:35Wes Larson?

  Like, this kind of sucks. This is like a bummer of a birthday. And then at the end, it's like, oh- I can't imagine how that feels. They did forget. Sorry.

• 1:21:43Wes Larson?

  I don't care. I really don't. At the end, it's kind of like, oh, they didn't forget. But then, I don't know. I just, I would just rather know that, like, I'm gonna have some fun with my friends and not worry about it.

• 1:21:54Jeff Larson?

  I am genuinely gonna take the other side of this.

• 1:21:58Wes Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:59Jeff Larson?

  Because the thing about surprise parties is it's not like they do it every birthday. It's like-

• 1:22:04Wes Larson?

  True.

• 1:22:04Jeff Larson?

  You get like one surprise party in your life, maybe, if you're lucky, in my opinion.

• 1:22:09Wes Larson?

  Yeah, I've never had one.

• 1:22:11Jeff Larson?

  It's like-

• 1:22:11Wes Larson?

  It's maybe I'm just sour.

• 1:22:12Jeff Larson?

  Yeah. That-

• 1:22:13Wes Larson?

  I'm not giving you one.

• 1:22:14Jeff Larson?

  I don't know. I feel like birthdays get boring. Like, I'm tired of my birthdays. So it's like, I don't know, maybe a surprise party would be kind of fun.

• 1:22:24Wes Larson?

  Mix it up?

• 1:22:25Jeff Larson?

  Yeah, mix it up once in your life.

• 1:22:27Wes Larson?

  Okay. I think that's a good argument. And yeah, maybe I'm just, I'm just sour because I've never had one, but-

• 1:22:33Jeff Larson?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:34Wes Larson?

  The ones that I've had to do the surprising, I'm always kind of like, oh, this is so overly complicated. Okay.

• 1:22:40Jeff Larson?

  You don't need to have Elmo there.

• 1:22:42Wes Larson?

  I got, I got a question for you guys that I came up with. Let's say you're with the absolute love of your life. Everything is truly perfect, like every single thing about your relationship is great. But then she says she wants to, she or he said they want to legally raise a chimpanzee in your house. It's going to live with you for its entire lifespan, 50 plus years. Would that be a deal breaker for you? This is the true, like, perfect relationship up until that point.

• 1:23:12Jeff Larson?

  Mike would be like, okay, but I'm never going to interact with it. I'm never gonna help.

• 1:23:20Wes Larson?

  That like. Yeah, and I think that's an incredibly fair and reasonable stance to take. But you wouldn't be able to do that unless you had like a huge house. You're going to be interacting with this chimpanzee. There's no way you're not. That's why I'm leaving. Yeah, I think I'm leaving. There's no, not a chance. I think it's too much for me. And I would be afraid of it, knowing what I know about chimpanzees. Once it's an adult, I would just live my life and like on edge.

• 1:23:45Jeff Larson?

  Honestly.

• 1:23:45Wes Larson?

  Of all the car doors you have to replace and repair and stuff.

• 1:23:48Jeff Larson?

  Pre-tooth and claw, I think I would be like, this relationship just got even better.

• 1:23:54Wes Larson?

  Yeah, you'd be the one proposing buying the chimpanzee.

• 1:23:58Jeff Larson?

  Now it's just like, it's not gonna end well. This is gonna make things bad.

• 1:24:05Wes Larson?

  Think of all the lobster tail you'd have to buy.

• 1:24:07Jeff Larson?

  Oh, man, maybe I could just adopt a kid and dress him up like a chimp and be like, oh, look.

• 1:24:15Wes Larson?

  All right, so it's a deal breaker for all of us. All right, we're gonna do a quick conservation corner and then wrap this up. There's somewhere. Adopt a lobster tail. That'd be pretty. There's somewhere between 150,000 and 300,000. Help take care of it. Chimpanzees in the wild. Uh, they are IUCN endangered because they are rapidly losing their habitat. And they're poached for bushmeat and some other things. Um, they.

• 1:24:44Wes Larson?

  Because you know, you hear 150,000 to 300,000 and you think of like, oh, there's only 5,000 tigers or whatever. It seems like they're doing pretty well compared to a lot of our imperiled species. But they, I can't stress enough, like these parts of Equatorial Africa where they're found are some of our most threatened ecosystems in the world. They are under threat from a lot of exploitation, from climate change, from human conflicts like wars. And there's just a lot going on in this part of the world that is stacking up against animals like chimpanzees and gorillas and mandrills, some of these other primates that live there. So even though there's a fair amount of them, they've got a lot of pretty substantial threats that they're

• 1:25:29Wes Larson?

  facing. Okay, I think we're gonna wrap it up. I'm gonna skip listener questions for today, but we appreciate all the questions you've been sending us. We will do them still, but sometimes, sometimes we don't. We're not gonna do it today, I decided. Alright. Alright. Fine. Uh, Mike. We... Yeah. Nothing. Alright, guys. Thanks for listening to the story of Travis. We love you. And let us know if that primate movie's any good. I love you guys. Alright, see ya. See ya. Bye.