The internal AI tool that’s transforming how Stripe designs products | Owen Williams

Owen Williams is a design manager at Stripe who built Protodash, an internal AI-powered prototyping platform that lets designers and PMs create high-quality Stripe dashboard prototypes without writing code. What started as a bundle of Cursor rules and React components evolved into a full web-based prototyping studio that runs in dev boxes, complete with design review modes, variant testing, and AI-powered iteration. Surprisingly, PMs now use Protodash just as much as designers, fundamentally changing how Stripe approaches prototyping, design reviews, and engineering handoffs. What you’ll learn: How Stripe built an internal AI prototyping tool using Cursor rules, MCPs, and their design systemWhy “blurple slop” happens when designers use generic AI tools—and how to fix itThe architecture behind Protodash: React router, design system components, and MCP integrationsHow Stripe prototypes in dev boxes so designers never have to worry about local setupWhy “demos, not memos” transformed Stripe’s design review cultureHow Stripe built design review modes, variant testing, and AI annotation directly into your prototyping toolWhy internal tools don’t need to be production-grade to be transformative— Brought to you by: Celigo https://celigo.com/howIAI—Intelligent automation built for AI Cursor https://www.chatprd.ai/howiai—The best way to code with AI — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Welcome and intro to Owen Williams (02:19) The “blurple slop” problem with AI design tools (03:50) Protodash: an internal vibe-coding tool for Stripe prototypes (05:26) Why an engineering background helped Owen lower the bar for designers (07:55) The Cursor rules that taught the Stripe design system (09:04) Running prototypes on dev boxes vs. locally (10:30) “Demos, not memos” and rewiring design reviews at Stripe (14:50) Building Protodash Studio: a browser-based wrapper for prototyping (19:04) Live demo: variants, line charts, and remixing prototypes in browser (21:02) Self-testing prototypes that take screenshots and check their work (23:20) Multiple variant features (26:08) The annotate-for-AI button for in-canvas feedback (27:21) Design review mode: comments, summaries, and AI follow-up (29:39) Why building internal tools beats buying off-the-shelf (32:50) PMs as the surprise power users of Protodash (35:20) Live demo: a Black Friday/Cyber Monday pet store dashboard (42:03) Lo-fi modes, monospace fonts, and “Comic Sans for WIP” at Shopify (44:45) Quick recap (45:35) The Radar prototype that changed engineering handoff (49:08) Lightning round and final thoughts — Blog & detailed workflow walkthroughs from this episode: Stripe’s Owen Williams on Killing ‘Blurple Slop’ with an Internal Prototyping Studio: http://chatprd.ai/how-i-ai/stripe-owen-williams-on-buildling-internal-prototyping-studio ↳ How To Connect a Design System to an AI Code Editor for High Fidelity Prototypes: https://www.chatprd.ai/how-i-ai/workflows/how-to-connect-a-design-system-to-an-ai-code-editor-for-high-fidelity-prototypes ↳ Streamline Design Reviews with an AI-Powered Prototyping Studio: https://www.chatprd.ai/how-i-ai/workflows/streamline-design-reviews-with-an-ai-powered-prototyping-studio ↳ Build a Personal AI App to Track Purchases and User Manuals: https://www.chatprd.ai/how-i-ai/workflows/build-a-personal-ai-app-to-track-purchases-and-user-manuals — Tools referenced: • v0: https://v0.app/ • Cursor: https://cursor.com/ • Claude Code: https://www.claude.com/product/claude-code • Claude Design: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-design-anthropic-labs • Figma: https://www.figma.com/ • Stripe Radar: https://stripe.com/radar • Balsamiq: https://balsamiq.com/ — Where to find Owen Williams: X: https://x.com/ow Website: https://owenwillia.ms/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/owenpwilliams — Where to find Claire Vo: ChatPRD: https://www.chatprd.ai/ Website: https://clairevo.com/ X: https://x.com/clairevo — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My dream was I want something that's like V0 but fast. We have all of these tools internally that are really cool. We can connect different data sources together. Why can I not just do this in my browser? Like, why do I need Cursor?

• 0:10Claire Vo?

  You're seeing a lot of designers use it, but maybe even more PMs.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  I started seeing PMs use it and got a little nervous. Call my goodness, PMs designing. It's like, what's gonna happen?

• 0:19Claire Vo?

  I said, how painful is it to prototype a data dashboard with all its interactions, all its filters, all its states, different states, zero data, a bunch of data? It is nearly impossible to do that in Figma.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  It's sort of been this very transformative thing because all of a sudden I'm sitting in these design reviews and it's so convincing that I'm like, is this the real product? Or am I looking at something fake?

• 0:44Claire Vo?

  Welcome back to How I AI. I'm Claire Vaut, product leader and AI obsessive here on a mission to help you build better with these new tools. Today I have Owen Williams, design manager at Stripe. And he's going to show us how he vibe coded his own vibe coding platform for their internal design prototypes. It is one of the most impressive internal tools I have seen and such an awesome way to rethink how your product builds products with tools. Let's get to it. This episode is brought to you by Celigo. Every company today wants AI to improve how work gets done. The fastest way is building it directly into everyday business processes. Automating employee onboarding, keeping customer data accurate, managing orders and inventory,

• 1:29Claire Vo?

  or resolving finance and operations issues. When AI lives inside the flow of work, it can update records, trigger approvals, route work, and kick off the next step across systems. That's how teams operationalize AI and deliver measurable results. Celigo makes this possible. And now with Celigo Aura, it's never been easier. Celigo Aura gives you access to the entire platform through natural language, connecting your systems and turning intent into action. All of it under your control. Companies like Databricks, PayPal and Ollipop rely on Celigo to run critical business operations at scale. Ready to operationalize AI? Visit celigo.com/HowIAI.

• 2:14Claire Vo?

  That's C E L I G O dot com slash HowIAI. Oh, and thanks for joining HowIAI.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm happy to be here.

• 2:24Claire Vo?

  I know that you're stepping away for a few minutes from parental leave with your second. So I appreciate you giving us the time. And what I love about what you're going to show us is how to, we were joking before we started recording, how to get prototypes that don't look like generic Tailwind Indigo slop. So tell me about, tell me what the problem you're facing and kind of how you came to the solution that you came to.

• 2:51Speaker 00

  You know, I'm a design manager, so I'm, I'm sitting in a lot of design reviews and all of the designers at Stripe right now are like playing with these tools. They're exploring, they're like, you know, trying, I think, you know, V0 is pretty popular internally with a bunch of other than different tools. And like, they're sitting there like trying to build the Stripe experience in these tools. And kind of like what you're saying, they end up with this like weird uncanny valley, like Tailwind, we call like the Indigo like blur pull internally. So like blur pull slop is what I would call them. And like, they do a really, really good job, but they don't know about your design system, right? So I'm in these design reviews and I'm like, why does the dashboard look weird? Like it's very immersion breaking, like the nav is odd or like the fonts are off and no,

• 3:36Speaker 00

  no foul to these designers. Like I get that. But I was kind of thinking like, we have a design system, like this thing is very predictable. These tools should know about it. And then we can like construct the dashboard from those building blocks like pretty reliably. So I basically ended up starting on this like, I would say, it's been maybe 18 months now, rabbit hole, like all of these things, building a prototyping tool internally that we call Proto Dash and a large number of designers are using it. And then actually, the thing that surprises me is it's actually more PMs than designers these days, which is really interesting. And I can talk about that a bit more later. And what it does is it makes it basically like really easy to get a dashboard like.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Environment, like a very realistic dashboard without having to think about it much. So what it is, is it's basically like a bundle of cursor rules. It's, you know, a bunch of React that like sets up the navigation and the like Chrome and some routing to like let you have the prototype in the frame. And all of those things mean you can like jump into Cursor or Claw Code or whatever. And you can be like, I want to build a dashboard page with this, this and this. And it like knows how to do a pretty good job. I would say like it gets you there like 90% of the way, most of the time. Don't get me wrong, it still makes mistakes, it will make slop, but it gets you, you know, 90% and like, you know, designers, that's what they're here for. Like they're high craft, they can like then refine it from there.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  And it's been really interesting to see what people have built. Like I can show you, walk you through a couple of examples, but it's sort of been this like very transformative thing. Because all of a sudden I'm sitting in these design reviews and like it, it's so convincing that I'm like, is this the real product? Or am I looking at like something fake? And so that's kind of a cool change to see happening.

• 5:27Claire Vo?

  I'm curious if you just walk us through how, who's, who, who built this? Did you build this? How did you build it? What are the components? And I know you had like V1 and V2, so maybe you can walk us through, through that.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Maybe like some context on me actually. So I, I lead the like developer sort of space at Stripe and my background is actually engineering based. And I actually switched in the wrong direction. I feel like for a design manager, you feel like a designer, usually people go the other way. I always had like an engineering slant to my roles and I always kind of considered it a superpower. So when I would think about like my teams, I actually loved hiring kind of technical designers, I would call it. Where they understood enough often in the interviews, I'm like, do you feel like you can, you know, know enough terminal to be dangerous? This is pre-AI, just to be clear.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  And that was something that always got me excited is like, even if you, I don't know, like not able to code, but able to understand enough to feel confident, like messing around and experimenting. It always gave designers superpowers. The thing I'll say that was always frustrating is like that. I don't know what the right word for this would be like. The jump to that technical level is really hard. Like for a lot of designers, like, I don't know. If you didn't steep yourself in web development, it's like, oh, my God, this is NPM. Like, what is V? What is this thing? Blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, I get why a lot of people didn't know how. Now, I totally changed that, right? Because now you can just like jump into a cursor, a call code, whatever,

• 7:00Speaker 00

  and just be like, how does Git work? And that's actually been the biggest mindset shift I've had to like give designers is, um, A, not being afraid of the terminal anymore. And B, if you're like, I need to use NPM, you can just ask. Like, you don't even need to know the commands. And so, yeah, with my engineering background, I was sort of looking at the problem in a very pragmatic way, where I was like, how can I lower the barrier to entry on this? Like, how can I make it that a designer maybe only needs to know about NPM, run dev, and that's it? And it just works like they don't have to know about React or React Router or any of these things. Um, so the first version was a very basic, like, uh, you know, it's a router. It's a bunch of our design system components.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  So our design system is called Sale. And then it was a MCP integration with Sale. So there's an MCP server internally for that. And then just like a bundle of rules that'll flash up really quickly. So, yeah, when you, when you would jump to Cursor, there would be a bunch of bundled rules that basically taught Cursor how to use the project and like what to do in what order. So like, if a user pastes a Figma link, you should, you know, check the Sale MCP server before writing any code. And then like, I don't know, there's some common like pain points and things I should avoid, what it should do if the MCP server is unavailable. LLMs are so helpful, they will just like imagine. The entire design system without telling you when it's not there.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  So like all of these things, you know, I'd like sort of whittled down through my various experiments. And this means that like a designer or a PM or anybody can very quickly like open this folder in Cursor and just be like, help me make a prototype that shows this. And it just comes out like beautiful and to the quality bar that we expect. Like Stripe has a really high quality bar for all of our experiences. And that's the other thing. It's like you go into these reviews with a real prototype and it looks bad. It's just like, surely we can do better. And so that's what this sort of like helps with.

• 9:04Claire Vo?

  But looking at this, this is something that people are running locally. So they're pulling this, they're running it locally, they're making the changes. And then in the meeting, are they just presenting sort of off their local machine?

• 9:15Speaker 00

  So it's a mix, actually. What's really cool is, um, so initially we had like, it was running locally. You would just run NPM, run whatever. But we have DevBox infrastructure. I think you talked to the Minion folks.

• 9:26Claire Vo?

  Did.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  So you've probably heard about that. Um, and so like DevBox is at a high level, just let you just get a server on the internet in a certain state internally. So now designers can just go to a like URL. It's like go slash proto dash and it just creates one. It's like ready to go in two minutes. And all they have to do is like, just connect to it and cursor. And so it looks like it's running locally. It's not, it's already configured. They didn't even have to run NPM. That's actually like my favorite magic trick is it just works. Um, and so those, like the benefit of those is you get a URL. And so you can be in the design review and be like, just go to this. And like, can I just say, being in a design review where I can click things is my favorite. Like, I, I love design reviews.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  I'm a very like nosy person who loves seeing what people are working on, those kinds of things. But like, for maybe the last five years, it's been like drowning in presentations, right? Like, show me a JPG in your Figma, like all of these things. And it's like, how magic is it when somebody comes and they're like, okay, I'm not going to screen share. Here's my prototype, here's the context, let's just like go through it and give feedback. And so being able to do that has been like the probably my number one goal is like, I never want to see a slideshow again. It's like demos, not memos is something that Dan Nelson, another design leader at Stripe, talks about a lot. And I'm like, this is the way that we can do that.

• 10:46Claire Vo?

  What I think is interesting about this, especially for a product like Stripe, is it's such a data and visualization heavy product. And I used to tell this to my design team at Launch Darkly, you know, two years ago, when AI and this kind of prototyping was really coming out. I said, how painful is it to prototype a data dashboard with all its interactions, all its filters, all its states, different states, zero data, a bunch of data. It is nearly impossible to do that in Figma. And we were building a lot of dashboards. And what a great kind of experience as a designer to, you know, I'm looking at your dashboard, if you don't mind pulling it up.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:27Claire Vo?

  This is a company that's not doing too bad, you know, we love that. Almost half a million dollars in gross volume. But what if you want the zero state? What if you want the, you know, the company with 10 times more than that?

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Getting one transaction a day.

• 11:40Claire Vo?

  Exactly. And so I think the ability to prototype with data in code as a designer, both lets you make more interesting prototypes and lets you push the edges of the underlying data and use cases to make it more practical.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Well, that's it. And like before it was like even just, I don't know, the amount of effort it would be to get all the various states into a Figma file was just like unhinged. Even like, if you think about internationalization is one of them. That's my favorite as well. It's like, oh, it's in Dutch now. Okay. It looks terrible. Like, because it's all long and stuff.

• 12:15Claire Vo?

  Yep.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Or the business model is the one that I'm obsessed with. I can actually flash this one up really quickly, where, you know, you can just very quickly be like, I want to see a startup and an enterprise. And it just, it just does it.

• 12:28Claire Vo?

  I love that.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  You know, you could add an additional one here that's like messy data and it will just do it. And I think that's the transformative thing is like, Show me how real users will see this. It's something that was really hard until recently.

• 12:42Claire Vo?

  Well, and I don't want to show my age, but I like to tell people when I used to have to walk uphill both ways to my CSS, like,

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:50Claire Vo?

  Well, there used to be a cottage industry of um, Lorum Ipsum text generators, just for putting even just fake copy in this is like when I was making web designs in Photoshop. So, you know, and, and I just think like, you do not know, designers out there, please, if you have not experienced this, you do not know how spoiled you are.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have not seen Lorum Ipsum in a while.

• 13:14Claire Vo?

  In a long time. I used to be a Lorum Ipsum, I used Hipster Ipsum. That was like when it finally ended. Um, but I used to have to paste that stuff in. You would do dollar, dollar prices. You would be like, 10 comma XXX dot XX, because you didn't know what the fake dollar amount is. You should put on a dashboard. You were dragging and copying the same components. And I just think now with this, this transformation in terms of live prototyping, you can design more interesting things and, you know, have them touch reality a little sooner, which is what we all want.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And also like the multi-step flow is the other thing, right? It's like often you're just showing like there's one JPEG and maybe a second one where it's like, here's this and this. Everything's great.

• 14:00Claire Vo?

  Yep.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  But like, what are the error states? Like, what other things can you do on the page, right? Like I'm in all these design reviews with, like, what is that button doing? They're like, this is there. And that's, that's okay. But it's also like, now we can actually build stuff that's just really like, well thought through and like, everything that's there is very intentional. Um, and like, shows you the path as well, right? Like, the amount of work you have to do in a Figma file often to like, I don't know, if you, if I imagine something like a workflow builder, it's like, you have to get the landing page and then like the job and the workflow builder. And then it's like, actually, I only wanted to show the end bit, but you need the context. Well, now we can wire up a prototype and like reuse the bits. Once you've got them, by the way, because it's all in production and obviously it looks the same.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  Then you can like play with it and like really sequence it all out once, which is really cool.

• 14:49Claire Vo?

  Well, and let's get back to the prototype builder. So you built this, you know, React app that could run either locally or in these dev boxes, but then you decided to take it a step further.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think like the biggest challenge that I've seen, so like just to just to level with you is we have a like very large mono repo. And it's like getting that running on your laptop is a little fiddly. And like Cursor and Cloud Code and all of these tools make that a lot easier. But it's like a little bit slow. It's like a bit annoying. And like you alluded to earlier, you also like, I don't know. You you can't share the URL very easily, like those kinds of things.

• 15:27Claire Vo?

  Can I share one other thing? I I might hypothesize, which is when you're a software engineer in a in a in a company, you get issued the like 18 inch MacBook Pro behemoth that can run anything locally. And designers don't always get the machine. And so I think that's another barrier.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's something I can I just say, uh, we thankfully got right. Like, I think when this started happening a year and a half ago, designers started being considered like engineers in many ways internally. And, uh, as far as I remember, I believe all designers are now getting like the meaty MacBook Pro. Like, I think I'm on like a 64 gig machine. Which is like, I can't say that I've had that at any other job. They're like, oh, you open Figma, you can have 10 gigs of RAM, like.

• 16:13Claire Vo?

  Yeah, I I love it. I call mine, um, big boy.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:19Claire Vo?

  And I tell my kids.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Chonk book is.

• 16:21Claire Vo?

  Yeah, chonk book. I like, can you go grab me big boy?

• 16:24Speaker 00

  And yeah.

• 16:27Claire Vo?

  Okay, so so, um, lots of challenges with running, you know, big mono repo locally. I can advise that. So so what do you what do you do to solve that problem?

• 16:36Speaker 00

  So what I wanted, like, my dream was I want something that's like V zero, but fast. Like a really opinionated workflow for like building Stripe based prototypes. I don't know, it's like very specific, but it's like, you know, we have all of these tools internally that are really cool. Um, you know, we can connect different data sources together. Why can I not just do this in my browser? Like, why do I need Cursor? And so the the framework I approached it with was like, okay, have this really cool, like React, uh, site emulator, I guess, or like prototyping tool. Could I wrap that somehow in a way where it's like you can still use Cursor if you want to? Like those those folks are really good at like LLM training and like giving you all the options

• 17:21Speaker 00

  and blah, blah, blah. But like. Now I want to be able to layer on a thing where you can just build it in your browser. So you don't have to code because you don't need any app. I just want to like go on the web and be like, I want to try out this thing. Um, and so what I ended up building was this um, sort of extra layer called Proto Dash Studio. And so this is like almost a hundred percent used in dev boxes. So you go to like a URL, it creates it, it takes about like a minute. And then you get to go to your dev box URL. I'm just running it locally, so like the live demo gods appease us today. But when you go to it, you basically, whenever you spin it up, you see the things that you're working on. So you have your prototypes.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  I have a fun one here where you get uh, fun ways to enter like the Stripe test card number uh, in weird ways. And then you can also see like the vibe prototyping feed. Cause I think the other thing that's really cool about like the way that this is all going is one, you can take inspiration from other people, right? You can see like what they're building and their approach to prototyping, like the amount of stuff I've seen. I'll show you a real prototype in a minute. Um, uh, a bunch of designers built like, I think they replicated the entire functionality of our radar product, the fraud step, fraud detection product in Proto Dash. And then they use that to like emulate different business models, like you say, but also like try new ideas.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  And like they have this really cool baseline. But the other thing you can do is you can like remix anybody's prototype at any time, right? Like, I think that's something that's great about like Figma, except with this, you can take that like code and just like start playing with their thing really easily, which I think is really cool. So the really like the compelling thing in here was not so much the home screen. I just wanted to talk about it is you can come in here now. So, you know, imagine we have this like payments analytics prototype. Instead of having to go and open my cursor window and like start prompting here and like hope that it's gonna be set up. Now you can just open the embedded L O N and you can just keep sort of start working there.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  So you can say, I want to add a new variant of my prototype where the stack. But chat, it's a line chat. You didn't have to like do anything on your machine. You just went to a URL and you asked for it. Um, and it will go ahead and build it entirely in browser, um, which is really cool.

• 19:43Claire Vo?

  Quick, quick question. People are gonna ask this. How did you build this? Like, what is the, give me like some like little sniff components of how you built this.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Like yelling at Claude Code for 18 months. Um, it's a mix it like, I don't, I definitely handwrote some code, but not much. Like, I think having the engineering background made it work, right? Because I know what I need to achieve and like how to get the architecture right. But largely it was just like, okay, I'm just going to keep going on this and see how far I can get. And it started as a like, could I make something that lets me do this? And then became a, oh my gosh, it works. I'm just going to keep adding features. And what's really cool actually about building a tool like this for like internal use is it doesn't have to be like production grade, you know what I mean? Like if it breaks, it's kind of fine.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  It doesn't need to worry about like logins, like this, you know, it's just running on your dev box. So that's fine. And so I have a lot more leeway maybe than like if you were shipping to production. But it was just a matter of like trying new things and like exploring and just seeing how far I could get. And so let's see, it's, it's working on adding a variant here, so it should show up pretty quickly. And what's I think like been really cool for me to see is like seeing the different types of users that have shown up in here. Oh, it's going to self-test now.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  That's exciting.

• 21:12Claire Vo?

  This is exciting.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  So usually if it was on a dev box, you wouldn't see that because you don't actually connect to the dev box. But it's kind of fun to watch it drive.

• 21:21Claire Vo?

  Yep.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  So it's taking a screenshot and checking its work, which I really love. So this is like a really cool demo.

• 21:27Claire Vo?

  You really said Claude Code, make no mistakes.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Well, pretty much like if you think about, I said at the top, I was like Stripe really cares about like quality and our quality bar is really high. I think like having a really opinionated way to build these prototypes means that we can do this. So like if I send it a Figma link, I'm like, implement this.

• 21:50Claire Vo?

  Yep.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Make no mistakes.

• 21:51Claire Vo?

  Yep.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  It's able to like at least see the prototype, like look at the browser console, like take screenshots and like iterate on it to the point where it gets it pretty good and can ask for feedback. And so now it's finished. We have this variant bar here, so you can like try different things. So here's my line chart demo. Ta-da, it like went and swapped it out. And like, I think it's pretty cool to be able to very quickly do that from your browser. Like, I don't have to do anything. It's just there.

• 22:20Claire Vo?

  This episode is brought to you by Cursor. If you all have been watching How I AI, you already know this. Cursor is my favorite way to code with AI. Whether I'm using plan mode to build out an ambitious feature, reviewing AI-generated diffs right in my editor, or kicking off cloud agents to multi-thread our roadmap, I reach for Cursor as my favorite multi-model coding platform. Even better than building myself in Cursor, I love collaborating with Bugbot to fix PRs for code security and quality, and have begun relying on Cursor's automated agents to keep our codebase clean. It's not just me. The most ambitious teams love Cursor too, including engineers at Stripe, OpenAI, and Figma. Ready to build more?

• 23:04Claire Vo?

  We're giving $50 in Cursor credit to How I AI listeners. Claim your credits at chatprd.ai/HowIAI. That's $50 in Cursor credits by going to chatprd.ai/HowIAI. I love this, and I do want to just call out again for folks that maybe aren't watching this variant bar in the bottom. There's also a very similar feature in Claude Design of this. So Claude Design, well now, when you prompt it to create a prototype, it says, how many variations do you want? As someone who like, worked at many, many A/B testing companies and did a A/B testing startup, I'm like, oh, my time had finally arrived, you know, 20 years later.

• 23:47Claire Vo?

  But it'll create multiple variants and let you select. The other thing that I think maybe you'll want to play, you kind of play with with data, is it gives you kind of like modes of the design. So you could be like, extreme design, like, how far are you letting, letting the, the AI go with the design system? Might be something you play with. Because one of the benefits, I do think, of this prototyping tools, and I'm curious what you think as a, a designer that works on a very opinionated codebase, is the happy accidents of, I would have never designed that, but that's kind of interesting.

• 24:22Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 24:22Claire Vo?

  And you want to leave enough leeway, I think. For for those moments to come out because I think it's a real benefit.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's like where I get excited is you can just be like Claude make eight variants of this thing that are very different and like it will cook and then you can sort of like take bits from each of them. That's actually something I kind of wanna, it's my next quest, I think, is building in like a crazy AIDS mode almost like it just spits out eight designs and you choose the pieces. It's not super rigid with the design system. In fact, frankly, like my favorite thing with this is just doing silly stuff. Like I showed you this forty two forty two mode. It's like, okay, what can the design system do? I had another prototype where I was like, can I just make emojis rain in the dashboard? I don't know. So, but like the idea there being like, if you want to keep pushing it, you can.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  And then the other thing actually that we have built in, and this is where the opinionated part comes through is you don't have to just use our design system. So there's a little like rules selector in the sort of embedded thing. You can like sort of grunt the L L M access to Tailwind. The amount of like shouty rules I have to have in the design system rule that's like, do not use Tailwind unless you're told to is actually deeply amusing. But if you would turn that on, it's like a pre-themed version of our design system. So it's got like the right blur ball and that kind of thing. And so you then you can be like, I want to do generative stuff, right? Because I think the issue with the design system is like you can make list views and charts and like whatever, but doing something net new is harder. And so that's there for that reason.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  The other thing that I think you would have seen, what's it called? Agitation out there. We have our like own version that we had built internally. I don't want to be like, ah, ha, ha, first. But maybe a little bit I will here, where you can also like interact with the canvas directly to give the AI feedback. So imagine, you know, we have this payment analytics prototype with a bunch of charts on it. You can click this little annotate AI button and swap into the like selector mode and be like, I don't know. Let's say, let's make the tooltip here hoverable with helper text.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  And then you can like, I don't know, add a bunch of comments for the AI to fix like right on the page. That's the other thing. Like I used to lose my mind and cursor being like, the element with class name eighty two F, please fix this. And being able to just select something and like give the feedback and then hit like, like hawk ten pieces of feedback to the AI to fix is really exciting. So, you know, add more padding to the table here. And so I'll send this off to the AI and it will just work through them. Like it'll, it'll be like, okay, this comment, this one. And like, do that. And the other thing that you can do before that, there's so many things I wish I could show you.

• 27:17Claire Vo?

  Wow, I'm not in a rush.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  I love it. Is actually, you can take a step back from that. Imagine you're like doing a design review, right? You're showing your prototype. And at different companies, there are different traditions, but something that's common at Stripe is you will like show you, share your screen. And then you're like, send a Google Doc link with like a table in it. That's like, give me feedback as I go. And it ends up being this like dumping ground of like screenshots and like, trying to explain the thing. Something that we built was designer review mode. So you can jump into a comment section, you can click start review. And then like, share a URL. And then like, everybody can comment as like a normal human. Oh, look, the AI broke it finally.

• 28:04Claire Vo?

  And you know what? It's fine. It's just internal tooling.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  I love it. Well, it's probably gonna like, try and self fix it because it can see it. This is the thing. Um.

• 28:12Claire Vo?

  There we go.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  It self fixes it. I'm gonna switch back to that commenting thing now. So imagine you want to do a design review. You get all your feedback as like, comments like, what's with this filter?

• 28:28Speaker 00

  So let's try and imagine you're like wanting to go to a design review. You share the URL with like the leaders in the room and you get, you know, your feedback. You don't want the Google Doc. Oh, look, my comment did send seven times. That's fine. So you get all these pieces of feedback from your design leaders and now you want to like go through and just like get a summary of it, I guess. So one, AI is really good at that. So in this case, I accidentally send this a bunch of times, but you would get like a detailed summary of the design review at the top. And then you could actually enter like review mode and step through and be like, the filter pattern isn't right here. Please add three more options. I don't know if that's realistic, but whatever.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  And then that will add it to the queue that you can just send to the AI to fix. Like straight off the back of the design review and it will be like, I fixed Katie Dill's feedback for you and you can send this to her. And it's like my favorite thing to just like, right, because designers have to follow up. Like there's all this extra busy work that you have to do after a design review. And being able to be like, I fixed that. Here's the receipt.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Thread is amazing.

• 29:38Claire Vo?

  One thing I, I want to say as a sort of step back analysis of what you're showing me, which is,

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:43Claire Vo?

  We, a lot of people are going to watch this and be like, man, you know, like V zero is good enough or this is good enough. And I, I think what is so interesting is you are right. I have a lot of design teams. I am a specific kind of design leader and design cultures, review cultures, building cultures are so different company to company.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 30:02Claire Vo?

  Right? Completely different. You know, I used to run this thing called Product Craft Friday. I wanted three hours with everybody on what we were building across everything.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:13Claire Vo?

  And then we would create these things called vibe checks where we would all drag the most recent work into one spot in the Figma board. And then look at it and say, does this all look like it's from the same product?

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:24Claire Vo?

  Because a lot of times it did not.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:26Claire Vo?

  And I think that is not a product that anybody's going to build. Is like the vibe check in the design reproduct.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  And then can, you can just do it.

• 30:35Claire Vo?

  But then you do, I'm like, you can just build it. And so. I think people really underestimate the value of building internal tools right now, not to, as I said, like, replace the ARR of a product you would buy externally, right? It's not that. It's, so it can be so precisely matched to the culture and cadence of your team that it actually gets used, right? You actually get higher quality.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like, okay, we can actually nudge the way that we work in really satisfying ways. Like, you know, staffing internal tools teams has always been hard, actually. Like, I've had a few of those teams and, like, Stripe loves building custom tools, but like, getting resources to build a weird design review tool for like, whatever, would have never happened before. And now we can just like, completely evolve the way we work by just like, building tools and like, giving them to people. And something that I love about this as well is like, while I've been working on it, my whole thing has been like, anybody can contribute. Like, if the design reviews thing is not, right? Like, let's just evolve it. And so I actually get pull requests from designers, like, a surprising amount,

• 31:43Speaker 00

  and I love it so much. It makes me happy. I'm like, yeah, you should just evolve the culture. Like, that's kind of what I'm trying to do here. And so like, I get excited about that kind of thing because it's very empowering to be like, design reviews aren't working. Like, what could we, I don't know, what doesn't exist that should exist? I don't want to use Google Docs. I don't want to use this thing. And so it's similar, like, even with the PMs who are using this, like, something that you can actually do is you can just dump in a PRD into the chat from Google Docs and it just, it can go, next is Google Docs. It knows how to do that and like, then it can take it and just build it. And I think, like, making that buried entry that low is just incredibly magic.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  Like, the amount of people who are like, oh my God, like, I am blocked because I don't have a designer. Usually, like, I'm a PM, I have a PM I work with on, I don't know, let's say like MCP stuff. It's relatively new, so we haven't staffed it properly yet. Well, now he can like, go and explore things in a really, like, high-quality way. And we'll still design review it and all of that. But like, he can unblock himself, which is like, a whole new thing as well. Like, I will, can I just say in the safety of this, like, very public podcast?

• 32:57Speaker 00

  The first feeling I had when I started making this was, um, I, I started seeing PMs use it and got like a little nervous. So it's called my goodness, PM's designing. Uh, it's like, what's gonna happen? Um, but it's actually just been thrilling to see like them having the tools to like build things that look like Stripe in the right way and like being able to explore their ideas and actually also give them the, um, like the visual tools to do it. Like, I think the hardest thing for PMs is often they can't like manifest the thing that they want to. It actually makes them better at communicating with their own designer. But also UXR is completely different. Like they can test their idea a lot earlier in the funnel where it's like, I have this

• 33:40Speaker 00

  thing I want to do. Okay. How am I going to do that? I, I can build a prototype and like just go and talk to some users and make them click it without it being an elaborate JPG with like interactive zones everywhere. So it's, it's really cool to see that changing. And I actually, I think I love the PMs user now. Like at first I had that terror and now I'm like, no, this is like making the relationship better.

• 34:02Claire Vo?

  I, you know, maybe I'll add one more thing to that, which is your conversations, I'm guessing, turn more into let's talk about the work and the thing I built and how can it be better than perpetual arguments over whether we should staff a designer on the MCP or something else, which has been our life for, for like, how many conversations are going to, who should be on the project versus here's the actual work and let's discuss that. And I'm sure that makes everybody, especially.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Just makes it easier for them to also advocate for it, right? It's like, okay, this is what we can do with the current system, but like, we need to, we need to push it more and like go beyond what is just like capable now. And so it's, it's been really interesting to see how it's like changing the conversation to it's like, hey, here's, here's like what we can do with what we have off the shelf, but we need a designer to help us elevate this experience. And so like, it's also making it easier to talk the same language. Cause the other thing is like, I work on very technical things in the developer experience space where it's like really dense and like super like we've been working on this like webhooks thing with like seven steps for like a year now. And it's like very complicated and there's all these moving parts and states and whatever. And now we can actually just

• 35:09Speaker 00

  show them all as opposed to like trying to have to explain how webhooks work and like all of this different stuff. So it's been really interesting to see how that's changed as well. Um, I have like, should we just like try and like build something random really quickly?

• 35:23Claire Vo?

  Let's do it. Speedrun something.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  Demo. I'm thinking like it might be interesting to build like a Black Friday, Cyber Monday dashboard.

• 35:32Claire Vo?

  Great. Let's do it.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  Okay, let's, let's build a B F C M. Is it gonna know what that is? We'll see.

• 35:38Claire Vo?

  I'll see.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Dashboard for a pet store showing live sales on a chart at the top of the page, a ticker with the latest sales and hmm, what else should it have? I don't want to overcomplicate it.

• 36:01Claire Vo?

  Top performing products.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, you had the same thought as me. Are trending.

• 36:05Claire Vo?

  Right. Look at this. Still got it. Still got it as a product manager.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  We're building together.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Uh, make sure the data is realistic and real time. This is, we're gonna full YOLO this and see what it does.

• 36:20Claire Vo?

  Okay. And now while it's loading, I have to say as a now parent of two with a little baby, we gotta get you voice mode on this.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  I, I, yes, that's actually a good point because it has, that's changed my life. It's just being able to like, I don't know. First of all, I'll say the voice transcription built into iOS, it's like, makes me feel insane every time I use it. I'm like, how do you not understand basic sentences? But then like the Claude voice mode, like you can have a baby screaming and whisper in it and it still nails it.

• 36:50Claire Vo?

  Yep. Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  So I do need to, I do need to add that. This is actually really interesting though, like as maybe a way to describe how this thing works as we watch it cook. The, the, under the herd, what's actually happening right now is like I said, it's building the dashboard. It's calling our sale F C P server. So that's like the design system, like getting all of the content and like sort of working through the problem. So it's like, what components do I need to, to build that thing? Um, how will I structure the page? What template will I use? And then it's like going to figure out how to couple them together and hopefully make something beautiful. We'll see at the end. Let's work it out. We're seeing it made a page already. And so we'll see where it winds up.

• 37:29Claire Vo?

  And were you able to just translate those, basically those cursor rules into how this system works to kind of follow some of the same patterns? Or was there something different you did?

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's pretty similar. I think it's probably a little bit more opinionated, right? So there's additional tools that this has. It's like got that built in like browser tools. It's got like a bunch of extra things like you can deploy the prototype to a like permanent URL by chatting with it. Like all of those types of like niceties. You can also be like, check your work and it will. But it's largely the same. A lot of my rules, this might be a little spicy, are like for Figma files. It's been really interesting, like trying to, I think, like, everybody's still figuring out how this changes in this world. Like frankly, I think I come from the engineering world. So I'm like, it's easier for me to use words to like describe the page I want to build.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  But like designers want to make a Figma and then translate it, which I totally get. But like Figma and like a canvas is pretty hard for these tools still. And so a lot of the rules are insane things to like make cursor act, sorry, not cursor, make Figma act correctly. Cause it will be like, oh, here's a thousand tailwind styles and like this random component I built from scratch for some reason. Or like matching, the biggest one is like matching our internal components to like the thing in Figma. Like if you see the thing that looks like this, make this, not that. Like I feel insane writing these rules. But like, once you've got them, it works pretty well. So.

• 38:58Claire Vo?

  I think what you said is really funny. As you said, like as an engineer, I feel like prompting it this way is gets a better result. And designers like, no, I feel like as a designer, I was talking to a friend about Claude design and we both came to completely opposite conclusions. I said, I use Claude Design and I think it's actually pretty good at marketing and brand kind of style design work. And I think it's garbage, garbage at UI. And he is a marketer and he was like, I think that it's pretty good at UI work and garbage at marketing. And I was like, we just both know what we're talking about in our own domain. Like cannot recognize the slop in others. And so I think it's really funny to see what people identify in these generations and how

• 39:43Claire Vo?

  they use stuff, just depending on the point of view they bring.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  Well, that's, that's the thing. And it's like, I, I don't think, I don't want to set any expectations. This will solve everything. Like, it's been interesting trying to like, balance that with all of this work. Like, how can I make sure that the, um, the tool knows enough to be dangerous? Like, it gets to 80%. But like, that taste, that craft is like, that's why designers will always exist, in my opinion. Like, they, they know how to elevate the experience. Like, this thing knows how to use the components. The components are well-designed. But like, it's not gonna be perfect. And like, we are here to steer them.

• 40:19Claire Vo?

  Yeah, I'm like, you know, hey, hey, hey, ProtoDust, that's a, that's a big ol' chart.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, no, but this is, this is a really great demo. I love it. It's just like, shit, first iteration of the page popped up. I'm just like, what if I built a chart that's the entire height of the browser?

• 40:33Claire Vo?

  Yeah, why not?

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Let's do it. But it's interesting to look at this. I, of course, use Blowball. I does love a good Blowball. Um, it got 90% of the way. Oh, I would say 80% of the way there with a very vague prompt. Like, I was like, give me a BSCM dashboard with a ticker and some charts. And it did it. I didn't just, um, and but now is like, sort of the iteration part. And so this is a good, probably like, live demo. And now you can say, like, grab this chart, jump back into here and say, the chart is way too tall. It should be a narrow page spanning chart. And just like, it will fix it.

• 41:12Claire Vo?

  Well, the other thing you might need to put into your overall rules is if you scroll down, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy, does it love emoji.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  I know. I have a rule and cursor for my, like when I'm working on the actual tool that I clearly need to put in the tool. Cause like I lose my mind.

• 41:31Claire Vo?

  This is not what I would expect to see in.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  But look at that. The chart is fixed, right? I like pointed at it with the built in like, look at this element for me. L M tool that we have. And I said, fix this. And it fixed the chart without me having to describe it. Um, and the, the page is live. Like, don't get me wrong. It's like, not the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But it's now you could like iterate on and like build up from there. It looks like stripedish.

• 41:57Claire Vo?

  Yep.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  It uses the right, it didn't use Comic Sans.

• 42:00Claire Vo?

  There we go.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  But yeah, the, the other thing I wanted to quickly talk about though, that I didn't show you is, um, you can also change the fidelity in here. Like something else that like I just miss is like, just give me like monospace fonts so that you know you're looking at something fake. Um, of course it didn't work.

• 42:21Claire Vo?

  Will you, will you pretty please turn on black and white mode? This is, this is like bringing me back to my, it didn't do it. That's fine.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  It didn't do it.

• 42:30Claire Vo?

  Okay. But this is bringing me back to my like truly OG designer days. I used to do this. You all, you have to be very old to appreciate this. So we used to do these designs in Photoshop. And you know, you get these like long scrollly things, your, you know, rounding corners by hand, all this stuff.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:47Claire Vo?

  And then one of the tricks I used to teach my designers is I said, grayscale the whole thing and look for contrast.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:55Claire Vo?

  And you built it.

• 42:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's just a mode. Like this is, I, I love it because it's like, okay, there is, we didn't even talk about this. But like one challenge with these tools is like, now I'm bringing high fidelity stuff to every review. It can be a little unnerving. Like I actually, so I worked, I worked at Shopify before Stripe. And something that we did at Shopify to signify like work in progress or like still figuring things out. As we would change the fonts to Comic Sans, which was like both like deeply painful, but also you, you knew visually, like immediately you're like, this is not done. Um, which I love. And so like having these built in modes, we can, I guess, like see.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Very clearly that it's not done or like Black and White or Monospace is my favorite is just like, clearly this is not the dashboard, but like you, you get it. It's like 80% of it. Um, is really cool. And so that's built in. And then the other thing is like, this is, this is the core of the original prototyping tool and now in like a visual setting, but you can emulate different states throughout really easily. So, um, I don't know. You want to override a certain nav section or, um, you want to show the like sandboxes banner or hide the nav. Like you can do all of that in your prototype. And so these are like things that would have been otherwise hard. Actually merchant name is my favorite too. It's like you're doing UX art and you want to pretend for Uber to like get them into the immersion. Like you can just write the word Uber and it's there, which is, which is really cool.

• 44:21Claire Vo?

  I love it. I'm thinking about your, your Shopify Comic Sans example. And I'm like, oh, it's Balsamic core is what it is. You know, remember the old?

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I kind of want, I kind of want that in here. It's like the goal eventually, like, can we build a distracted, like lo-fi stuff and like build like, maybe Balsamic mode is the right way to this car.

• 44:42Claire Vo?

  You know, see, you know, if you know, you know, okay. This has been so incredible. Just to recap for folks that have made it this far with us. You built a pretty high fidelity replica app that anybody could pull down, run locally or in a dev box, had a bunch of cursor rules. You turned that into a web hosted, interactive prototyping tool with a bunch of, I think this is the, the, the trick. A bunch of controls, both for how your design process works in terms of getting feedback on specific components, reviewing them, processing them and different states of your prototype that you know are useful across the design team and you can just ship fun things and work things. And then

• 45:26Claire Vo?

  you're seeing a lot of designers use it, but maybe even more PMs. So the stuff that people are doing and the tools that are using is really changing.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, do we have like two minutes to show you one more thing? There's one more thing. Well, like

• 45:39Claire Vo?

  There's one more thing, y'all.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  One more thing. I wanted to show this prototype that, um, two designers built internally, just like using the tool. Um, so Ryan and Sarika, they've been building like the entire, they work on the radar product, which is like fraud detection. And like for them, They've been basically like working on net new features and being able to like actually show the entire multi-step flow from every point of the journey. Like, okay, we're on Stripe Home, you see a banner that's like this, then you see a list view of like potential fraud risk and like here are the reasons and like here's the data and the animations and like it's all working. Like you can add a node, hi, and it will work. You can even like jump into the rules and see what reasons something happened. Like being able to do this like

• 46:24Speaker 00

  really, really high fidelity, like here is the exact way the dashboard will work also changes the handoff. Like the handoff for this, this piece of work on radar has been fascinating because it's like they literally have a pull request of a prototype that I had, I see an engineer working on and I'm like, this has never happened ever in my career as a design manager, like them and, and they're like, I'll just use the prototype as the source of truth. And like being able to just pick that up and be like, all of the components are the same. There's some translation to do, but like they can just take it and do that is a huge change. And so like having that level of like preciseness and not having to like, I'm gonna show my age again, like red line a Photoshop file or like some, all

• 47:08Speaker 00

  of that stuff is, is really incredible. Like now they can just inspect element and look at the padding.

• 47:13Claire Vo?

  I love it. I love it. Oh, prototypes everywhere. Okay. Uh, you've blown my mind. Now I want one of these. Um, I will say one, one trick that I've also used something like this for, because I built a very similar kind of like replica app.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Cool.

• 47:28Claire Vo?

  Is I make every component a downloadable PNG so that we can use it in marketing assets.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Oh, that's good.

• 47:35Claire Vo?

  So you know, like how many, how many often are you screenshotting stuff? And I'm like, I need a real example of like an enterprise, you know, PRD or this component with this. So then I just like everything, every element you can download as a PNG and then you can drop it into slides and stuff.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  Can I just say like the worst and best cursed thing working on these types of tools? Like I've gotten it far enough where I'm like, wow, this is like magical to use is like, I just have like 90 other ideas I want to add and I can just add them. Like every day I'm like, what if I just did this? And then I do it and I'm like, what?

• 48:07Claire Vo?

  Yeah, and you can just impose your will on your teammate customers as opposed to like have to worry about your real customer feedback.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Well, right, like, let's just, let's just change the way we all work, like. But it does speed up that process, right? Like if we can, I don't know, one idea I've had in the back of my head for a while that I tried at one point and was just like, too many layers at the time was like, just let me clone a dashboard URL. Like, give a dashboard URL, clone the whole thing and it'll be in here. And like, then you can, I don't know, you've got customer feedback, I want to fix this bug, boom, here's the prototype for it, go and fix it. And so I think like, we're nearing that, where like, you can have this like, pretty compelling facsimile of your environment and like, much more rapidly evolve it without like, worrying about just like, breaking things, or, you know, all of the like, traditional

• 48:57Speaker 00

  boundaries of the product. So it's, yeah, I find it, I find it very exciting. I just have to stop myself sometimes. I'm like, stop, stop adding things.

• 49:06Claire Vo?

  All right. And speaking of stop adding things, I know I have to get you out of here to the little one soon. So we're gonna do one lightning round, well, two lightning round questions. I'm gonna get you out of here. My first one is, this is my hypothesis, that every parental leave is what like, people are spending, vibe coding, they're just spending their parental leave, holding a baby in one arm, and holding a Claude in the other, and making stuff happen. Are you AIing through your parental leave? Tell me the truth.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Yes, I, it's so funny, because like, this is my second child. My first kid, I feel like these things were nascent and didn't really exist. This time, it's like, so different, right? Like, you can just yeet a prompt into Claude card from your phone and like, all of this stuff. So he'll be like asleep on me and I'm just like, can you make an app that does this? And like, yeah, I made, I made at least one app. I think I can flash it up really quickly if I can find the rebrowser window. That's basically like, this is the most dad thing of all time that you would ever want, but like, an app where you take a photo of like, say you buy something expensive, like a bike or a TV, you take a photo of

• 50:18Speaker 00

  the receipt, it's like, expenseify sort of, and then off the product, and then it basically like, saves the serial number in the app. First of all, who saves this stuff? When you bought it, from where, right? Downloads the manual. And then just like you have it there. It's like, I bought this on this day for this much. Here's the manual. Um, because I have this thing where it's like, you buy something nice and then like two, I don't know, 18 months later in my break, you're like, where did I get that? I can never find the receipt ever.

• 50:46Claire Vo?

  Okay.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  And so, yeah.

• 50:48Claire Vo?

  I love this. Let me, I'm gonna do a feature request here because your kids will get older and those womb bikes are expensive.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Oh, they're so good, though.

• 50:57Claire Vo?

  And they're so good. But at some point, after kid number two is done with it, you're gonna want like three years later, a reminder to sell this thing.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Oh, that is a good idea. I like that. It's like, yeah, remind, remind me in two years, I don't need this anymore.

• 51:11Claire Vo?

  Remind me in two years, this thing needs to get out of the garage and somewhere else. That is Jean. Yes.

• 51:19Speaker 00

  Well, thank you. I need to finish it, but.

• 51:21Claire Vo?

  Also, like when the warranty expires.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 51:25Claire Vo?

  If it requires any maintenance.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Well, that was the only reason I started this is I had a bad experience with a warranty where like it broke probably three days before the warranty was up. But I had a kid during that time.

• 51:36Claire Vo?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  And I, you know, if I had had a week's notice, I would have been like quickly emailing the company.

• 51:41Claire Vo?

  Yep.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  So that's why I did it.

• 51:44Claire Vo?

  You need to join the family live, love, claw Slack that I run. That's all just parents trying to figure out how to use AI and open claw and all these things to do real boring ass stuff. Okay.

• 51:58Speaker 00

  I clearly need more side projects, don't I?

• 52:00Claire Vo?

  Clearly. Okay. Oh, and this has been amazing. Uh, last question. When AI is not listening, when you're whispering, you're like, claw, make no mistakes. Um, my baby's crying, make no mistakes. When it's not listening, what is your prompting strategy?

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Hmm. Uh, old cats. No.

• 52:17Claire Vo?

  That's fine.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  I do a lot of shouting. Um, I think I, I just try and be really specific. Like I, I can, my, I have a lot of meandering career paths. I had a content background at one point and like just being specific upfront helps a lot. And then like, uh, I have, I have learned, okay, actually I'll, I'll give you this piece of advice. I find if I, as soon as I've sent the first shouty prompt, it's time to like reset the like slash clear and start again. Like the context window is full. It's not going well. Start again. As soon as I feel like swearing in there, like, start again.

• 52:56Claire Vo?

  I feel like this is also applicable again to parenting children where I'm like, if being loud didn't work, I wouldn't do it, guys.

• 53:05Speaker 00

  I know, but it's like such a funny, I think it's like I had to retrain my brain, right? Like, as somebody who has built a bunch of stuff, you get that, like, sunk cost fallacy. At some point, you're like, surely I'll get this to work. But, like, often just throwing it away and starting again.

• 53:17Claire Vo?

  Throw it away.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:19Claire Vo?

  I love this. Oh, and this has been so fun. Where can we find you and how can we be helpful?

• 53:24Speaker 00

  I'm on Twitter. Do we still say that? I say that. Twitter at at OW, very short username. Um, that's why I can't leave. Uh, and I am also on my website, Owen Williams, that's just the domain name, but dot before the MS and it works. Um, and gosh, how can you help me? How, like, just build cool design tools. We're actually, like, this prototyping thing, we believe in it so much that we're hiring, like, I don't know how to describe it, but like a design engineering type person to, like, drive this stuff. Like, we think it's gonna transform the way that we build. And so we're hiring that kind of person so I don't have to build it as my other job. Um, so please join us if you're like the kind of weirdo like me that likes to code and also likes design stuff.

• 54:08Speaker 00

  Uh, send me a DM. I'd love to talk.

• 54:10Claire Vo?

  Love it. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining How AI.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you for having me.

• 54:16Claire Vo?

  Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed the show, please like and subscribe here on YouTube, or even better, leave us a comment with your thoughts. You can also find this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Please consider leaving us a rating and review, which will help others find the show. You can see all our episodes and learn more about the show at howiaipod.com. See you next time.