Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Wikipedia: Jimmy Wales (2018) About this episode During the dot-com boom of the late 1990s, Jimmy Wales was running an internet search company. That's when he began to experiment with the idea of an online encyclopedia. In 2001, Wales launched Wikipedia, a website where thousands of community members could contribute, edit, and monitor content on just about anything. Today, the non-profit has stayed true to its open source roots and is one of the ten most visited websites in the world. PLUS in our post-script "How You Built That," we check back with Leigh D'Angelo, who explains how her sister's break up inspired them to create a dating app—for dog owners.
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0:00 Guy Raz? Hey, everyone. So think of the last time you got into an argument with someone, right? The kind of argument that could be resolved with a simple fact. You know, like, is a lobster a crustacean or a mollusk? What was the final score in game seven of the World Series? How long does it take the light from the sun to reach the earth? Anyway, chances are, if you grab your phone and type in any of those questions, the answers will come up on Wikipedia. It's become a ubiquitous first stop for finding out just about anything. My interview with Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales first ran about two years ago, but it is an incredible story and incredibly surprising. So we're playing it again, and I hope you enjoy it.
0:43 Guy Raz? What was the first Wikipedia entry?
0:47 Speaker 01 The earliest article that anyone has found was an article on the letter Q. And in those early days, it was very exciting. You could just be the first person to say Africa is a continent and hit save. And while it's not very good, but it's not wrong, and it's a start.
1:09 Guy Raz? From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.
1:23 Guy Raz? I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, the story of how Jimmy Wales started an online encyclopedia as a side project and watched it grow into one of the pillars of the internet.
1:43 Guy Raz? OK, so I'm looking at a list of some of the most viewed websites in the world. Number one, of course, you probably know, is Google. Also at the top of the list, YouTube and, of course, Facebook. Also, a handful of Chinese websites like Baidu. And then, clocking in somewhere around number 10,
2:03 Guy Raz? Wikipedia. So imagine for a moment that you are the founder of one of these enormous websites. Well, Forbes puts out an annual list of their net worth. And here's what we found. Larry Page, founder of Google, sits on about $66 billion. Mark Zuckerberg edges him out with about $82 billion. One of the founders of Baidu is worth around $10 billion. And the founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales, well, he's not listed by Forbes, but judging from media reports, Jimmy's net worth is nowhere near the billions. In fact, it's likely in the low millions. In other words, Jimmy Wales is quite possibly
2:44 Guy Raz? the least rich internet titan in the world. But unlike a lot of famous founders, Jimmy Wales' legacy is likely to live on for centuries because in some ways, he's like a modern day Johannes Gutenberg. And just like Gutenberg's press made it possible to spread knowledge beyond a village or town, Wikipedia made it possible for every single person on earth with an internet connection to gain access to probably the biggest collection of knowledge ever assembled online. And like a lot of the entrepreneurs we interview on the show, Jimmy's story starts with influential people and important events that happened pretty early in life. He grew up in Huntsville, Alabama, where his uncle owned a shop that
3:29 Guy Raz? sold early personal computers. And Jimmy worked there part-time. And his two big hobbies were tinkering with computers and reading, reading just about anything he found interesting.
3:41 Speaker 01 I read basically anything I could get my hands on, including I spent a lot of time reading the encyclopedia. You know, you hear about something and you want to learn more and you go to the encyclopedia and find the article and read that. And yeah, it was a beloved thing in our house that we had the encyclopedia and we would all use it.
3:59 Guy Raz? Did you buy it in the store or did somebody like come to your house and...
4:02 Speaker 01 No, it was somebody came to the house door to door. When I was a baby, as the family legend goes, that somebody came to the house and sold it to my mother. And every year, they would send out an annual update.
4:14 Guy Raz? Yeah.
4:15 Speaker 01 For example, the article on the moon was updated when someone landed on the moon. And so there were all these stickers and you would take the sticker out and you would go to look up M. Moon and you would find the old article on the moon and you put in a sticker saying, there's an update. My mom and I would do that every year when the stickers came in. My first editing an encyclopedia.
4:35 Guy Raz? Jimmy eventually went to college in his home state of Alabama and he was really good at complex mathematics. So good, in fact, that he went on to do a PhD in finance. But around 1992, Jimmy decided that academia really wasn't the place for him. So he left to take a job as an options trader in Chicago.
4:56 Speaker 01 What I was doing is really just trading, like buying and selling every day, arbitrage. So there's a lot of mathematical modeling to relate the prices of different things to each other, to look for opportunities, to find imperfections in the market in pricing.
5:10 Guy Raz? So while you were in Chicago in the early 90s, this was also around the time the internet starts to become something that ordinary people are using. Netscape comes out and people are like browsing the internet. Did you get into that?
5:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, completely. Yeah, I was really, so even when I was, before I came to Chicago, I was really getting into the internet. So what I was doing, I had no life. I was, I just traded in the day and then I would go home at night and I was working on my own web browser.
5:39 Guy Raz? Wait, you were making your own web browser, like on the side, like in your apartment?
5:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:44 Guy Raz? How did you know how to do that? Did you, were you just like sort of self-taught?
5:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. I mean, in grad school, obviously if I'm doing very quantitative data analysis, things like that, I learned to program. I was a bad programmer, but I, you know, I can code.
5:59 Guy Raz? Yeah.
6:00 Speaker 01 I just remember very clearly the day that Netscape went public and I had the, I had been convinced for a few years' time that the internet was going to be really big and really important and really kind of fundamentally changed the world. And this was the moment when I felt like, okay, look, the market is validating that, like other people are seeing it and people are really investing money here. And so there was a bit of a transition period, but it was really in 90, I'd say about 98 is when I left Chicago and I moved to San Diego. And that was when I really decided, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna focus full-time on my internet ideas and projects.
6:37 Guy Raz? Once Jimmy settled down in San Diego, he founded a small internet search company called Bombas. And because this was the late 1990s, during the dot-com boom, companies were paying top rates to advertise on these new things called websites. And so for the next few years, those ad dollars made it possible for Jimmy to hire a small staff of programmers. And they had the money to just kind of experiment.
7:03 Speaker 01 So the idea was really, at that time, this is pre-Google, remember? The best web directory around was Yahoo. And Yahoo hired, I don't know, hundreds of people to go around and index, manually, by hand, index topics and categories on the web.
7:17 Guy Raz? Yeah.
7:17 Speaker 01 And then I said, well, look, maybe the community can do that. Maybe other people can help out. And if you could get thousands of people involved, it could be really bigger than what Yahoo's doing. And that was really the thought. So we allowed people to come in and build an index to any topic that they were interested in. And we called it a web ring. And I remember one of the first community members came in and built a web ring about Jupiter. And so they had gathered a bunch of links about the planet Jupiter, and they put it in, and we're like, OK, that's cool. That's great. Now, of course, we dabbled in all kinds of things. We had a few blogs. And I remember my business partner at the time was talking about building what today, I would say, his idea sounded a lot like Facebook,
8:01 Speaker 01 but it was really more about people reconnecting with people from their schools and universities. It was a classmates.com kind of idea. But I mean, keep in mind that this was also where we started Newpedia, the predecessor to Wikipedia.
8:17 Guy Raz? Yeah, so tell me about that. Because while you're at Bombas, this thing, Newpedia, grows out of it, right? What was it?
8:25 Speaker 01 So, you know, as I said, at Bombas, we were always experimenting. We were thinking of new ideas and new possibilities, new things to do. And I was looking at the model of open source software, seeing that that worked. I was also looking at, you know, at BOMAS, we had community members who were building indexes to content that they were interested in. So the idea of Newpedia was to basically replicate that, to say, well, let's build an encyclopedia and have volunteers contribute to it. And I just thought, you know, this, this seems like a low hanging fruit. Actually, I remember I was in quite a panic when I had the idea to hurry up and get started because I thought it was so obvious. So when I started Newpedia, I really thought that other competitors were going to be out
9:07 Speaker 01 there, but after two years, there was still no one really competing with us because it maybe wasn't as obvious as I thought.
9:13 Guy Raz? And the idea was basically to just put a, make an online encyclopedia?
9:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, but of course, at the time, I didn't really understand Wiki, the concept of a website anyone can edit. And also, we had, you know, a seven stage review process to get anything published.
9:31 Guy Raz? So how would it work? You would, you would write an article for Newpedia and then it went through like seven stages before it was published?
9:38 Speaker 01 Seven stages, but I mean, some of the stages had to do with, first, you had to propose the article, you had to prove your qualifications to write it. We had hired some staff, so Larry Sanger was the editor in chief and he would, there was a whole process whereby you could apply to submit something and so forth. And then there would be copy editing reviewers, much like academic review, where you send it out to experts in the field for review. And actually, one of the things that was really a light bulb moment in my mind was one of the first few articles that got through that process and was published, we had it up on the web for just a few days, I would say, and suddenly it came to our attention. Somebody said, hey, this is really plagiarized.
10:23 Guy Raz? Oh.
10:24 Speaker 01 And we checked into it and it's like, ouch, so.
10:26 Guy Raz? Like somebody just copied the encyclopedia?
10:29 Speaker 01 No, it wasn't from another encyclopedia, it was from other sources, but it was, it was just, it was not good. And I realized, even with all this process we built up to prevent this, there was still plagiarism and that was a huge problem. And in fact, the only thing that revealed it was. More people reading it and people seeing it and saying, hey, this is actually a problem. And that, there's an old saying in the open source software world that given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow. And what that means is oftentimes when you're programming, there's some kind of bug in your code and you just cannot find it. And if you get another set of eyes on it, or 10 sets of eyes, it becomes very obvious. Somebody will spot it.
11:08 Guy Raz? Yeah.
11:08 Speaker 01 And so that concept does actually apply in lots of areas of life. If you get a lot of people looking at something, people can say, hey, there's actually a problem here that maybe nobody else noticed. And then sometimes after it's been pointed out, you say, oh yeah, that's kind of obvious.
11:21 Guy Raz? So I read that within a year after launching Newpedia, you, the site produced a sum total of 21 articles, which doesn't sound like it was churning and burning.
11:33 Speaker 01 No, it was not good. And in fact, as we proceeded through that year, and I was very frustrated with the slow pace of progress, I decided to write an entry myself. I thought, I just need to go through this process myself to see what's wrong with it, or how can we improve it. And so I decided to write an article about Robert Merton because I'd read all of his professional work on option pricing theory, which was my specialty back in academia. So I was qualified enough to write a basic biography of him. But I found it very intimidating because I knew that they were going to take my draft and send it out to the most prestigious finance professors they could find to agree to review it. And I was going to get feedback, and it felt really a lot like grad school.
12:17 Guy Raz? Yeah.
12:17 Speaker 01 And that was really the moment when I said, okay, look, this isn't going to work. Like, this isn't fun. We really have to make this a lot easier and a lot more open. And so that was a really crucial moment, the moment that I tried to get something through the system.
12:32 Guy Raz? So when you were working on Newpedia and you were like sending these draft articles around, I guess probably like all over the country, how were you collaborating with people?
12:43 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, this was the thing. One of the problems that Newpedia had is that the only real way to collaborate back then was to email around a Word doc. And if you emailed around a Word doc, then The typical case is, nobody responds. But the worst case is, five people respond and they've all changed the document in different ways. And now you've got to figure out how to integrate that all. But, you know, the, the concept of a wiki, which is a website anyone can edit, was actually invented by a guy called Ward Cunningham, who's this lovely, great programmer. And so the word wiki, it's a Hawaiian word, which means quick. And the idea was quick collaboration. And so the idea is that there's a document on the web, but anybody can come along and
13:28 Speaker 01 edit it and save it and so forth. We were the first to really say, hey, let's use that tool to build an encyclopedia.
13:35 Guy Raz? So the idea was you would, you find out about this wiki software and you think, yeah, let's democratize this process of writing articles, throw it open to everyone, and then the entire community will, will kind of cross-reference and check it?
13:48 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, it grew a little more organically than that. We had a good-sized community of people who were working on Newpedia. And so these people were all very eager, people who loved the concept of a free encyclopedia for everyone in their own language. That was a really exciting concept. And so initially, we thought, well, let's start this as a tool for that community. So it'll still be Newpedia, but we're going to use this wiki as a way for that community to begin to work together a little more efficiently. And I made the decision to put it up at the domain name Wikipedia.com rather than keep it on Newpedia, because we weren't really sure, like, we had a lot of academics and
14:32 Speaker 01 a lot of very serious people on the mailing list, and this seemed a bit of a crazy idea, and we thought they might find it offensive. And so we said, okay, let's just set up on a different domain and see what happens. But of course, the history is that Wikipedia very, very quickly outstripped Newpedia in terms of the content created and the quality and everything else.
14:51 Guy Raz? I should know this, Jimmy, but I don't. What was the, what was the first Wikipedia entry?
14:56 Speaker 01 Unfortunately, there was no history kept of the very early days. The earliest history was lost. So we don't really know. The earliest article that anyone has found was an article on the letter Q. And I'm sure that was not the first article in Wikipedia. I know the first words in Wikipedia, they were hello world, and I know because I typed them. And then very quickly, we just started doing lists of things, states and things like that.
15:24 Guy Raz? So I guess you launched Wikipedia in January of 2001. Newpedia still exists.
15:31 Speaker 01 Yep.
15:31 Guy Raz? But within like, in like, two weeks, you had more articles on Wikipedia than Newpedia had generated in the previous two years.
15:38 Speaker 01 That's right, yeah. Yeah, of course, as you mentioned earlier, that was something like 21. So it was a pretty minor achievement in one sense, but it was, it was an eye opener. It was like, wow, we've got this great community. And people just started writing, making articles on various random things and other people editing them. And there's a lot of pent up excitement about, let's just get started building this. And the, the change from really this huge, very intimidating process that was not very collaborative to being able to say, you know, and in those early days, it was very exciting. You could just be the first person to say, Africa is a continent and hit save. And while it's not very good, but it's not wrong and it's a start.
16:19 Guy Raz? Yeah.
16:19 Speaker 01 And that was very addictive, the, the idea that you could actually change something.
16:24 Guy Raz? This was all being run out of where? Like, did you have an office in San Diego or was it just your apartment or what?
16:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, small office. This was during the Obama stays, so we had a few programmers and sort of cheap office in a warehouse space. This is the period of time when ad revenue was good. So we were able to just hire some people and get started.
16:46 Guy Raz? So I guess you very quickly realized that Wikipedia is going to be, could potentially be huge. Like, did it seem clear, like, within the first months or year?
16:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, it did, it did. I mean, it, you know, I remember looking at a list of the top websites at the time. And there was an encyclopedia reference kind of site at, ranked at number 50. And I thought, gee, if we do a really good job, we might be number 100 or maybe even in the top 50. But there was always this idea of like, this could be a big thing. If we can figure out how to do it, it could have a huge impact.
17:23 Guy Raz? In just a minute, when Jimmy Wales was faced with the question of how Wikipedia was going to make money, he decided that it wasn't. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.
17:51 Guy Raz? Welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So in the early days, Jimmy Wales was able to get Wikipedia up and running, and he was funding it with money from his first internet startup, Bomis. Bomis was running ads, the dot com boom was in high gear. But then, of course, came the dot com crash. And all that ad money, it dried up pretty fast. And Bomis would eventually have to shut down completely. But at the same time, Wikipedia was growing. And Jimmy had to figure out how to keep it growing without a lot of cash.
18:29 Speaker 01 There was no money really to support Wikipedia, but it didn't cost a lot of money. It was really community driven. And so, you know, it really was the volunteers. And in fact, one of the reasons that Wikipedia became a huge success, I would say ironically, is the lack of funding. Because if I had had the money, if I'd gone to Silicon Valley and convinced somebody to give me millions of dollars to start this, then your natural instinct, if you have any problem on the site, is to say, OK, well, we just need to hire some moderators. And we're going to make decisions and we're going to have staff members who decide things. And instead, there was no money. We couldn't hire anybody. So as a community working together, we had to find our own solutions. And so we had to say, you know, what are the software solutions
19:13 Speaker 01 we need to be able to control for vandalism? And then imagine we have a really, really tough editorial decision we have to make. How do we make those decisions? All of those things happened because there was no money to hire anyone, because it would have been much easier to just hire people. And that would have actually prevented the rise of a more natural set of solutions.
19:33 Guy Raz? And who was managing it? Was it just you and Larry Singer? Was it just the two of you?
19:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, pretty much. I mean, we had other employees who were helping out in this and that, of course. But, you know, it's basically, we had to think a lot about how to move the community in the right direction. You know, there were a lot of really complicated questions around, OK, when do we ban people? When do we block people from editing? When do we think they've gone too far? And a lot of the editorial policy, you know, you have questions like, to what extent do we allow people to write essays or commentary or put jokes in articles? And we decided, no, you know, neutral point of view is like our core belief and so on. But all those decisions had to be made and they were made in discussions with community and so forth.
20:17 Guy Raz? I mean, you must have known, Jimmy, at this point in 2001, 2002, that Wikipedia was growing super fast and it was going to be, could potentially be huge. You decide, I guess around 2003, to basically create a nonprofit organization to run Wikipedia. What was the thinking behind that? Why did you do that?
20:40 Speaker 01 So there were a few things going on there. So first of all, this was still the depth of the dot com crash, so there was no obvious business model. The community of volunteers very much wanted it to be in a nonprofit and I thought that had to be taken into consideration. And then finally, for me, it just made sense. Like, it was aesthetically, it just seemed like the right thing, that Wikipedia, my ambitions for Wikipedia, to become a really important moment in history and a really important cultural contribution, really made a nonprofit a much more sensible option. And indeed, you know, I think if we had gone in a different route, it would be very different today.
21:21 Guy Raz? You gave an interview to Slashdot, the website Slashdot, and you said, "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." That's an amazing idea, but I wonder why you could not have done that same thing and still put ads on Wikipedia, like banner ads and stuff.
21:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, so here's the thing. If you think about the DNA of any organization, it's very difficult to stop an organization from following the money. So Wikipedia is a nonprofit and as a nonprofit, we could run ads. No legal prohibition on a nonprofit running ads as a means of support.
22:06 Guy Raz? Sure.
22:07 Speaker 01 Yet, because the organization would tend to follow the money, then suddenly, inside the organization, people would start caring a lot more about our traffic in highly developed advertising markets. We would begin to care more about which pages you're reading, because if you're reading about Queen Victoria, there's probably very little to sell to you and there's probably, the ad rates are very poor. If you're reading about- Tesla cars or vacations in Las Vegas or something like that. I mean, we would have an incentive to start creating content that would drive higher ed revenues, which is really not what we want to do. We're an encyclopedia. We don't think about adding features that might drive page views for traffic.
22:49 Speaker 01 We just think about how do we make the encyclopedia better and how do we reach more people, particularly in the developing world? That's just like fundamental to what this is all about.
22:59 Guy Raz? So when you basically said, right, this is a nonprofit. We're not going to have any advertising. We're gonna, it's going to be user generated content. How do you even fund that? How are you going to get the money to even fund the paying the servers?
23:11 Speaker 01 Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, so what happened was the main reason that we went ahead and set up the nonprofit was exactly thinking of that for the future, but I had no idea whether it was going to be possible. So we set up the nonprofit in June and at that time we were running on two or three servers. And so then we had this disaster. It was a Christmas day when two of our three servers crashed and I had to scramble to get the site running on one server and it was painfully slow and so forth. And it was clearly obvious because the traffic kept doubling that we were going to have to buy a bunch of servers. And so that was the first time that I decided to do a fundraising campaign to ask people on the site to give money.
23:54 Speaker 01 And these days we call it crowdfunding and it's, you know, everybody knows it, but back then that was not a normal way of doing things. And I remember very clearly that I had hoped to raise about $20,000 in a month's time, but in about two weeks' time, we had raised nearly 30,000. So the first fundraiser was a huge success. I mean, people really said, hey, well, this is great. We really want to support this. And so a lot of small donors and that, of course, today is the model for Wikipedia, that people who believe in Wikipedia, who think it's useful in their lives, say, hey, I should chip in.
24:31 Guy Raz? When did you-- so Wikipedia really kind of starts to just blow up in the early 2000s. When did you-- when were you first sort of cognizant of that? When did you realize that Wikipedia was becoming really big, like part of the national conversation?
24:47 Speaker 01 Well, I think there were a few moments, but I think one of the most important ones, there's a guy, John Sigenthaler Jr., who is a very esteemed journalist. And he had called me up to complain about his entry.
25:02 Guy Raz? When was this?
25:03 Speaker 01 2005. And he said, hey, there's a problem because Wikipedia says that I was briefly suspected of having something to do with the Kennedy assassination. Now, this is a man who was one of the pallbearers at Robert Kennedy's funeral, if I remember the story correctly. So a big friend of the Kennedy family. And this story was absolutely untrue. And once he called, it took about 10 minutes to get that fixed and changed, and we looked into how it had happened and so forth. And so we thought, OK, problem resolved. But then he wrote this scathing editorial in USA Today about the site, and it got a lot of traction, that story.
25:43 Speaker 01 So we had this really big thing, and they dragged me on CNN to yell at me and so forth. And suddenly, we're in all the press everywhere. Our traffic really exploded because of all the news coverage, so that was the upside. But that's not the way you want your traffic to explode. But in the end, that was actually a moment that was important for us.
26:05 Guy Raz? How come? Why?
26:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, so this led, in the community, to a real reflection on quality, on sourcing. This is when we came up with the biography of living persons policy and really started to say, look, if it's a biography of a person, then anything negative in the article really needs to have a good quality source, because that's just not acceptable to have negative things about people that aren't true. And so we became quite vigilant about that afterwards. And of course, there's always the possibility of this happening and so forth, and it does happen. But the community is very, very vigilant about it and really tries hard to keep anything like that out of the site.
26:45 Guy Raz? I mean, it's amazing because Wikipedia, obviously, on a day-to-day basis, everyone uses it. I use it, everyone uses it, you use it. But I remember at that time, that John Segenthaler article, just 2005, you know, NPR, we were not allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. And it wasn't just NPR, it was all news organizations. Like, Wikipedia was not considered a reliable source. And it just shows you sort of-
27:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, I mean, I think that should still be your policy.
27:09 Guy Raz? Right.
27:10 Speaker 01 Wikipedia is quite good. It is definitely not perfect. And what I always say is, Wikipedia is the place to go to get the questions, not the answers. It's the way to get yourself oriented in a context. And I actually always say, go on the talk page of any article and see, what are the Wikipedians struggling with? If they're saying, gee, you know, this source says this, and these sources say that, and there seems to be a conflict, hey, that might be the most interesting question you can ask, is, let's get to the bottom of this. There's conflicting information out there. And also, you know, if you want to use Wikipedia as a starting point, then you can always go to the footnotes and go to the actual source. And that's what you should do.
27:48 Guy Raz? So, Jimmy, I just cannot imagine, like, running this volunteer organization with hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people, today certainly millions, who were voluntarily editing sites. And did that ever just, like, get you so wound up that you just didn't want to do it anymore?
28:06 Speaker 01 No, not really. And, you know, the interesting thing is, I remember in the very early days, I would get up at night and check the site, because I was convinced that somebody was going to come in and trash it overnight, which never happened. And then quickly, I realized, like, oh, yes, a vandal did show up at 3:00 AM, my time, last night. But guess what? Somebody who's a known community member was up in Australia and actually blocked the person and fixed the problem. And so, I began to understand, like, communities do inherently scale. And I think that is part of what held me not be overwhelmed by anything.
28:43 Guy Raz? So we're now in this phase in like the history of the internet. People call it fake news. I don't like that term for obvious reasons, but so much information that looks real that's not real. This is not new. I mean, this has happened throughout human history. But now, because there is so much information available, it's sometimes difficult for people to discern what's real and what's not. And I wonder whether one of the challenges with Wikipedia is reasonable people are disagreeing about basic facts. So how do you reconcile that? How does Wikipedia deal with that?
29:18 Speaker 01 I mean, a few of the elements. So one, when we think about the quality of sources, that's a really core thing in Wikipedia, and we have a lot of discussions and debates, and I think a fairly sophisticated approach to thinking about the quality of sources. And I agree with you. I don't like the term fake news, but the original use of the term was really about clearly, completely made up websites that look like news sites with no concern for the truth, with outrageous headlines and so on. And those kinds of sites have had almost zero impact at Wikipedia because while, you know, they might do well to share on Facebook something that comes from a publication called The Denver Guardian because it looks like a news site, and Denver, everybody knows Denver's
30:02 Speaker 01 a city in America, and Guardian sounds like a newspaper, so it seems plausible enough. The Wikipedians would take one look at it and say, I've never heard of that paper. That stuff doesn't really get into Wikipedia. A broader problem that I am concerned about is, right now, that the trust in media in the US, but also around the world, but in the US is really at an all time low. But it's a tough problem, and I think it's a societal problem to say, look, we really do need quality information. Most people are very passionate about wanting to be told the truth.
30:36 Guy Raz? Yeah.
30:37 Speaker 01 You know, the best way to prepare people for authoritarian rule is not to indoctrinate them into an authoritarian philosophy, but to make them believe that there's no such thing as truth. And that's a trend that I'm not happy about.
30:53 Guy Raz? How many, do you know how many Wikipedia pages there are today in English, for example?
30:58 Speaker 01 Uh, there's over 5 million.
31:00 Guy Raz? In English?
31:00 Speaker 01 The last I checked.
31:01 Guy Raz? So, so total, probably, in all languages, it's gotta be-
31:06 Speaker 01 40 million.
31:07 Guy Raz? Wow.
31:07 Speaker 01 Close to 50, close to 50, yeah.
31:10 Guy Raz? Do you know, do you even know how many people contribute to Wikipedia around the world?
31:16 Speaker 01 It's something around 75,000 people every month who make at least five edits. It's probably 3,000 to 5,000 is the core community of people who are making 100 or more edits. And so that's quite a lot of people, but it's not as many people as some might think. Now, of course, making five edits in a month, that's not a huge amount of participation, but you're pretty, you know, you're around.
31:40 Guy Raz? Yeah.
31:41 Speaker 01 And there'll be a lot more people who just make one edit a year. But in terms of the real community, it's probably that 75,000.
31:49 Guy Raz? Jimmy, what motivates 75,000 people, or a few hundred thousand people, to donate hundreds of hours of their time every year for free to do this?
32:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it's two things. So, first, you know, the mission, a free encyclopedia for everyone in the world, is meaningful. I mean, you could spend your hobby time playing Grand Theft Auto or doing something else, and the world wouldn't be any better off when you're done. And if you spend a few hours editing Wikipedia, you can go to sleep and think, yeah, it was productive. The world is a little bit better than it was, and someone, somewhere will benefit from that, and that's great. And then also, just fun. People, you get to meet people who are interested in the things you're interested in, no matter how obscure. The ethos of the community is to say, look, no personal attacks, we're here to discuss the content.
32:44 Speaker 01 If you go on the discussion page for a controversial topic, you're not there to just debate that topic. You can do that lots of places on the internet. What you get at Wikipedia is a debate about how do we improve this article? And that's just a refreshing kind of feeling. And so, a lot of people really find it suits their personality.
33:04 Guy Raz? Do you know what the revenue is, like annual revenue for Wikipedia from donations?
33:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, our revenue, I should know the number exactly off the top of my head, but I don't. But I think last year was around $85 million.
33:17 Guy Raz? Wow, just from donations?
33:19 Speaker 01 Just from donations, yeah.
33:20 Guy Raz? Incredible.
33:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, primarily from small donors. That's important to understand, that when the community gets together to debate something about what they want to have Wikipedia say, or what a policy should be, there's never a question of, well, what will the funders think?
33:32 Guy Raz? Yeah.
33:33 Speaker 01 And over the years, we've really tried to run the organization in a very financially conservative way. Every year, we try to build our reserves. A lot of our donors, one of the things that they really want from Wikipedia is that Wikipedia be safe. And so that drives us to say, OK, they don't want us to run on a shoestring. They don't want us to run nearly at break even and nearly going broke every year. We need to be stable. And that's been a real value for many years.
34:00 Guy Raz? When you think about this thing that you built and your role in the history of the Internet, how much of the success of Wikipedia do you think is because of your brilliance and your hard work? And how much do you think is simply because of luck?
34:17 Speaker 01 A huge amount due to luck. Brilliance and hard work, OK, maybe not so much. I do think a component of the success of Wikipedia is that I'm a very friendly and nice person, and I'm very laid back. And so therefore, I was able to work in a community environment where people basically yell at you, and you just have to kind of roll with it. And you're, in some sense, a leader, but you can't tell anyone what to do. They're volunteers, so you have to work with love and reason to kind of move people along in a useful way. So I do think that I'm not irrelevant to the process, but I also think that, you know, the community is amazing.
34:58 Speaker 01 And the luck of the timing of really hitting that moment when it was possible to build Wikipedia.
35:06 Guy Raz? Jimmy, you've seen the estimates that, you know, that if Wikipedia were a for-profit, it could be worth at least $5 billion, maybe more.
35:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:18 Guy Raz? Does it mean anything to you?
35:20 Speaker 01 No, not really. I mean, it's, you know, people, they love to write about Jimmy Wales is not a billionaire.
35:29 Guy Raz? I think there's actually, there are articles with that headline, Jimmy Wales is not an internet billionaire.
35:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. And for me, that's all a bit odd because, you know, my life is unbelievably interesting. I have the ability to meet almost anyone in the world who I want to meet.
35:44 Guy Raz? Yeah.
35:44 Speaker 01 And usually I introduce myself, I'm Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, and they go, oh, wow.
35:48 Guy Raz? Right, yeah.
35:49 Speaker 01 And if I say, oh, I'm Jimmy Wales, I own the largest chain of car dealers across the southern part of America, people will be like, oh, OK, whatever, like, not that interesting.
35:59 Guy Raz? Right, yeah.
36:00 Speaker 01 At least in that regard, I do, I do think that no one will remember me in 500 years, but they'll definitely remember Wikipedia. And that's really, I mean, it's really something. I mean, that's something that you can really hardly even get your mind around.
36:13 Guy Raz? There've been comparisons to the Gutenberg press, right? This is the biggest sort of dissemination of knowledge in, in modern world history.
36:21 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, but I don't know, it's a bit embarrassing to talk about it that way. I'm just trying to have fun.
36:29 Guy Raz? That's Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia. By the way, a few years ago, Jimmy got grief for trying to change his own Wikipedia entry, which is a big no-no. His entry showed he was born on August 8, 1966, which is what his birth certificate also says. But that was a mistake because, according to his mother, Jimmy was actually born shortly before midnight on August 7. So he made the change only to be confronted by angry Wikipedia editors who demanded documentary evidence, which of course he could not furnish because all he had to go on was his mother's version of when it happened. Anyway, for the record, we just double-checked the page.
37:10 Guy Raz? And according to Wikipedia, the man who created Wikipedia was in fact born on August 7, 1966.
37:25 Guy Raz? Hey, thanks so much for sticking around because it's time now for How You Built That. And today, we're updating a story we did about a year ago about a dating app. But not just any dating app.
37:37 Speaker 02 I'm a single dad of a sweet, weet and terrier who loves to play and make new friends.
37:40 Guy Raz? This is a dating app with profiles of people and their dogs.
37:45 Speaker 02 Very friendly and well-educated, never bites, always wagging his tail. Let's go to the park and let's get our dogs to play.
37:51 Guy Raz? So the voice you just heard is Lee D'Angelo. And Lee's story starts in 2016, when her younger sister Casey had just gone through a breakup.
38:01 Speaker 02 She was dating a guy who tried to be a dog person for her. But by the end of the relationship, he didn't want the dog in his apartment. He would put towels down on the couch so the dog didn't touch anything. And she came to me and said, I wish I just knew from the start that this wasn't going to work because of my dog.
38:19 Guy Raz? And so the sisters thought, could there be a dating app that might solve this problem? An app where someone like Casey could say upfront, me and my dog, we are a package deal.
38:31 Speaker 02 She has a cavapoo. I mean, there's truly nothing that looks more like a teddy bear than her dog. And so we said, you know, if someone can't like this, then clearly, you know, you need to find someone with at least a little bit more dog person in them.
38:44 Guy Raz? So they started to kick around this idea. And they realized the way people take care of their dogs can say a lot about their personalities.
38:53 Speaker 02 How much money do you spend on your pets or other things in the house? You know, how clean do you keep your house?
38:59 Guy Raz? Things like that might predict whether two dog owners are really compatible.
39:04 Speaker 02 Does your dog sleep in the bed or out of the bed? Do you let your dogs on furniture? Do you always pick up dog poop on the walk? That's a big one.
39:11 Guy Raz? That's a big one. And by the way, if you are listening and you have a dog, please do pick up the dog poop off the sidewalk. Just a favor I'm asking. Anyway, in July of 2017, the sisters began developing their app. Now, Lee has a background in journalism, and Casey works in advertising design. They had never done anything like this before. So at first, they pooled their money together, and their dad put in a little bit, too. And then they got into an accelerator program. They found a chief tech officer and a team of developers to help them build the app.
39:44 Speaker 02 We actually went through four development teams.
39:46 Guy Raz? Because Lee and Casey had a hard time finding just the right match.
39:51 Speaker 02 It can be very scary when you have a limited amount of money to build this product, and you see it either taking forever or not looking the way you want it to and watching your money drain at the same time.
40:04 Guy Raz? But after seven months, their dating app was ready, and they launched it on Valentine's Day.
40:10 Speaker 02 We weren't the first dating app out there. So we were able to learn from a lot of other people's mistakes. There have been interesting dating apps that have tried to launch nationally, and they get a lot of attention really quickly. But because you need a lot of people in one place in order for a dating app to work, they just fell apart.
40:30 Guy Raz? So Lee and Casey decided to get the word out city by city, starting in New York. Lee even hosted events in each city, these big, dog-friendly parties. Pet companies paid to set up booths. That meant revenue. And dog owners, well, they would come and stay and mingle. And after each launch, Lee and Casey saw a spike in new users.
40:52 Speaker 02 We knew there was nothing more valuable than getting a lot of people in the app so our users could find more people to match with.
40:59 Guy Raz? The app is called DIG. And since we first ran this story, it's launched in 15 cities and now has nearly 135,000 users. Lee and Casey also got a $50,000 startup grant from Purina to help with marketing. And they even celebrated the first engagement of a couple who met on DIG. And yes, Lee knows what some of you single people with cats are thinking. Where's my app?
41:24 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. We get the cat question all the time. You know, surprisingly, we actually get the horse question all the time. Of course, people definitely need to have their own conversations, too.
41:34 Guy Raz? But for now, DIG is all about the dogs and the people who love them.
41:41 Guy Raz? If you want to find out more about DIG or hear previous episodes, head to our podcast page, howibuiltthis.npr.org. And of course, if you want to tell us your story, go to build.npr.org. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please do give us a review. You can also write to us at [email protected] . And if you want to send a tweet, it's at how I built this or at Guy Raz. Our show was produced this week by Casey Herman, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks also to Sequoia Carrillo, Candace Lim, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Raini Toll. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
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