Amy Dresner: Getting Dirty, Staying Clean & The Power Of Owning Your Truth

Shame can’t survive the light. I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating. If you’ve been on this podcast adventure with me for a while, then you know well that addiction, alcoholism and recovery are recurring themes of the show — subjects very close to my heart as someone whose life has been spared by sobriety. These themes recur because millions of people from every cross section of life suffer in silence. Deeply ashamed and terrified to confront their truth, these lost souls dwell in the shadows. Paralyzed and powerless, addiction strips them of their humanity as they descend into darkness, wandering lost and alone in what author and addiction medicine specialist Gabor Maté (RRP #188) dubs the realm of the hungry ghost. As a culture we perpetuate the cycle of shame by judging those afflicted as weak, even sub-human. This creates a climate of fear and silence, further entrenching a deep sense of self-hatred that drives the addict into a prison of loneliness and despair, isolating that individual from the life-saving solution to their fatal disease. But shame can’t survive the light. So let’s shine a light on it. Towards that end, I give you the story of Amy Dresner. A former stand up comic, recovering drug addict and all around fuck up (her words), Amy is a writer and author who humorously chronicles her epic ups and downs for The Fix, Refinery 29, Alternet, After Party Chat, Salon, The Frisky, Cosmo Latina, Addiction.com and Psychology Today. I first came across Amy by way of our mutual friend (and record-setting 8-time podcast guest) Mishka Shubaly and her recently released memoir, My Fair Junkie: A Memoir of Getting Dirty and Staying Clean*. I dig a good addiction yarn, and Amy’s descent into the throes of addiction and ultimate redemption is one for the ages. Growing up in Beverly Hills, Amy had it all: a top-notch private school education, the most expensive summer camps and even a weekly clothing allowance. But at 24, she started dabbling in meth in San Francisco and unleashed a fiendish addiction monster. Soon, if you could snort it, smoke it, or have sex with, she did. Smart and charming, with daddy’s money to fall back on, she sort of managed to keep it all together. But on Christmas Eve of 2011, all of that changed when, high on Oxycontin, she stupidly “brandished” a bread knife on her husband and was promptly arrested for felony domestic violence with a deadly weapon. Within months, she found herself in the psych ward–and then penniless, divorced and looking out on a court-ordered 240 hours of community service. For the next two years, assigned to a Hollywood Boulevard “chain gang,” she would sweep up syringes (and worse) on Hollywood Boulevard as she bounced from rehabs to halfway houses, all while struggling with sobriety, sex addiction, and starting over in her 40s. Amy pulls no punches. Her raw honesty is as devastating as it is courageous – perhaps even shocking for those less intimately familiar with the ravishes of addiction. But she’s also hilarious. Today we get into all of it. This is a candid conversation about the dark underbelly of drug abuse, sex addiction, and alcoholism. It’s about violence, fear, self-hatred, and shame. It’s about the very real struggle to survive. And it’s about the conviction and strength required to achieve sobriety. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I had to lose everything so I could be grateful. And sweeping the streets created a sense of unity and compassion for other people I'd never had before. Growing up in Beverly Hills, it was like, well, that'll never happen to me. And it's like, I'm here to tell you, anything can happen to you. You are not immune. So if there's someone else and they've gone through that, have compassion. That could be you. I'm here to tell you, that absolutely could be you.

• 1:32Rich Roll?

  That's Amy Dresner, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:46Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody, how's it going? What's the good word? I hope this streaming cyberspace audio file finds you well today. And I mean that. I really do mean that. My name is Rich Roll. This is called a podcast. Welcome to it. So I've been hunkered down over the last week, week and a half, two weeks, and have been pretty much off social media lately in comparison to kind of my relationship with it in the past. And it feels good, but I also admit that I kind of miss it. I really do miss it. I like posting stories on Instagram.

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  I like seeing what other people are up to, but I will say that it has been to my benefit. I definitely feel more focused, which is important because it's been a really busy period for me. I'm editing pages on a new book that's coming out soon. I'll tell you more about that this spring. I'm also cracking the structure of a brand new book that I'm working on. And we're almost done with our new cookbook, The Plant Power Way Italia, which is coming out in April. So that's three writing projects. And as for the cookbook, we're going to reveal the cover for that soon, which is pretty exciting. And then I spent all day the other day recording the audiobook for someone else's book, not one of my books. And that's a book that's coming out at the end of the month.

• 3:09Rich Roll?

  And that was new for me and cool. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to talk about that specific project, so I better not reveal anything right now. But it's exciting. It's exciting for me at least, I guess. And on top of all of that, I put out two podcasts last week. So it's been a lot, but it's been good. And I feel like I'm in a good creative groove at the moment, which is awesome. But you know, I realized one thing, which is that I can't do all of that and keep up with social media, make videos, do a lot of the other things that I enjoy doing, that I find to be creatively rewarding. In other words, you got to prioritize your energies, man. You got to aim them in the direction

• 3:52Rich Roll?

  that will serve the most people and serve them in the best way in a long-term sense, if you know what I mean, if that makes sense. Did I mention I got Amy Dresner on the podcast today? I don't think I did mention that. Interesting woman, that Amy Dresner. If you've been on board this podcast adventure with me for a while, then you know well that addiction, alcoholism, sobriety, recovery, these are big recurring themes of the show. They are subjects that are close to my heart as somebody who is in recovery. They are issues I think are important to discuss, especially in the midst of this explosion of opiate addiction

• 4:37Rich Roll?

  that is devastating millions of people. But too often, this and other issues that kind of swirl around addiction are not dealt with out in the open. They're dealt with in the dark, hidden away. And that's usually a function of shame. So let's talk about it. And to do that, I invited Amy on the show, who, despite the fact that I've had a litany of recovering addicts and alcoholics on the podcast in the past, Mishka Shubali, Charlie Ingle, Joseph Now, David Clark, Chris Davis, Steve O. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting at the moment. But I know one thing, which is that I've never shared a woman's perspective on this subject.

• 5:22Rich Roll?

  So I am excited about this one for that specific reason, as well as for many other reasons, because Amy's amazing. A former stand-up comic, recovering drug addict, and all-around fuck-up, those are her words. Amy Dresner is a writer, she's an author, who humorously chronicles her epic ups and downs for The Fix, which is a recovery-themed online publication, as well as Refinery29, Alternate, Afterparty Chat, Salon, The Frisky, Cosmo Latina, Addiction.com, and Psychology Today. You guys know I love a good addiction recovery yarn and Amy's first book hits

• 6:03Rich Roll?

  the spot for me. It's called My Fair Junkie, A Memoir of Getting Dirty and Staying Clean. It's a wild ride. It's so crazy, her story. And it chronicles her downward spiral from somebody who pretty much had it all, growing up in Beverly Hills, to becoming to kind of descending into this fiending addiction. Monster. Meth, Oxycontin, alcohol, and sex were all among her drugs of choice. And it's a journey that led her to a felony conviction for domestic abuse. It led her to psych wards. It rendered her penniless and ultimately found her on a community service chain gang and kind of going in and out of more rehabs

• 6:48Rich Roll?

  and halfway houses that you can count until she finally gets sober and has to face completely starting over her life in her 40s. And her book and Amy herself in person pulls no punches. It's what I really love about her and her writing. It's so devastatingly honest, but also hilarious. Like, she's really funny and at times, perhaps even a bit shocking, especially for those who might be a little less intimately familiar with the extent to which addiction can ravish a life. And today, we're going to get into all of it.

• 7:36Rich Roll?

  Okay, so this is the very raw, brutally honest, courageous, and funny, she's really funny, story of Amy Dresner. We talk about her privileged and tame upbringing. We talk about her descent into drugs and alcohol and her roller coaster journey to recovery. So this is about sex, drugs, comedy, rehab, violence, the dark, pernicious force that is unbridled addiction, and ultimately, the path to sobriety.

• 8:10Rich Roll?

  But honestly, in many ways similar to my conversation with Myrna Valerio, but also very different, what this is really about is the redemptive power of simply facing, owning, and ultimately summoning the courage to share your truth. And the incredible, indelible power that ownership, that that kind of ownership, the ability to be profoundly honest with yourself, which takes a tremendous amount of courage. The power that that holds to overcome shame and heal oneself and serve as an example to heal others.

• 8:54Rich Roll?

  In other words, rooting out shame by shedding light upon the facts of your experience. So, really powerful stuff. Whether you are in recovery or not, whether you're suffering from some kind of addiction, be it substance, or behavioral, or maybe you know somebody who suffers. I think we can all get something out of Amy's story, even if it just serves to help you better understand the nature of this condition, this disease. And even if you don't think you have a problem, I would encourage you to think of addiction, to define addiction for yourself a little bit more broadly. Because addiction truly is a spectrum. And personally, I believe that we all, that all of us,

• 9:39Rich Roll?

  suffer on some level, either consciously or unconsciously, from some kind of unhealthy obsession or compulsion that we feel powerless to combat, or resist, or overcome. And it could be substance, it can be booze or drugs, or it can be a behavior, like gambling, or shopping, or social media, or television, or relationships, or texting while driving. Or it can even just be a thought pattern, victimhood, a sense of unworthiness, for example. So, I think it's important to talk about these things. So, let's do that. Let's talk about it. Here's Amy.

• 10:22Rich Roll?

  You ready to rock?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I'm ready to rock.

• 10:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks for coming out, all the way out to the countryside.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a nice drive.

• 10:28Rich Roll?

  To do this, I appreciate it. I've been looking forward to talking to you for a long time.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Oh, nice, me too.

• 10:33Rich Roll?

  I thought, before we get into it, I wanted to ask you, well, basically, this is on behalf of Mishka, he wants to know, like, why you give him so much shit about his body hair? Before we get into anything, we gotta talk about Mishka a little bit?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Oh my god!

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  Mishka's a podcast fave, he's been on my show like, I don't know, seven times.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  I know, I love, well, that's how we got connected. Yeah, Mishka, oh, come on, does he have to always have to make it about him?

• 11:02Rich Roll?

  Of course he does!

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Oh my god, because he's hairy! He's super duper duper hairy!

• 11:08Rich Roll?

  I know, what are we gonna do about that?

• 11:10Speaker 01

  I mean, you know...

• 11:11Rich Roll?

  We should like, send him to the depilatory, just for a video.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  God, can you imagine, just like, I wanna just see him get waxed. I mean, how much would you pay to see a video of him being waxed?

• 11:20Rich Roll?

  He would do it.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Well, he's gorgeous, and it's like, he's gorgeous and a great writer, it's like, what are you gonna give him crap about? Like, that you're hairy like a gorilla, I'm like, you're very her suit, it's like, he is!

• 11:30Rich Roll?

  But he has some like, pride around that, I think.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:35Rich Roll?

  I don't know, he should be here, I feel bad.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Don't feel bad?

• 11:40Rich Roll?

  You can't respond! But anyway, we're here to talk about you, and we're here to talk about your amazing book, My Fair Junkie, I loved it.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Oh, awesome.

• 11:49Rich Roll?

  It's so refreshing to read, not just an addiction recovery memoir, but like, any book, or any memoir, I should say, that's just honest, you know, that's not trying to convince you of some image or persona, other than like, who you are. And your level of like, vulnerability and honesty and just rawness in this book, it just leaps off the page. It's insane, yeah, I mean, it's an incredible story, and, you know, although the facts of our experience are different, the emotions, like, it was so vivid for me, because I got sober in Hollywood too, and you know, I know those places that you're talking about, and you know, you would sort of,

• 12:33Rich Roll?

  you know, reference somebody, and I was like, I think I know who that is.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  I was like, I went through legal vetting. I was like, really?

• 12:41Rich Roll?

  Well, of course. Yeah, of course.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  But some people are like, they can guess who certain people are.

• 12:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  And certain people like got permission, completely permission.

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  But, but recovery in Los Angeles is a very specific

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:53Rich Roll?

  subculture. Unlike, I would imagine, recovery circles in other cities.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  I agree. I would agree with that. It can be very incestuous.

• 13:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Hollywood especially.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Especially.

• 13:04Rich Roll?

  But when I got sober, I needed the circus, you know, I needed the, I needed that drama. Like I was, I was like, my life's gonna be so boring and I need new friends. And I'm not gonna go sit in a church basement with a bunch of 50 year olds. Like, I need, like, so I would go to the places where I knew it was gonna be crazy. You know, there would be like hot girls and somebody would be hanging from the rafters.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Hey, whatever gets you there.

• 13:27Rich Roll?

  And maybe the cops would show up.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Oh my god, right? That's happened at some meetings.

• 13:31Rich Roll?

  I've seen it many times.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  And I didn't even go to like Midnight Madness and those like really crazy meetings.

• 13:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Like I was just like, hmm.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  Chinatown.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I used to go. Cause I was like, you know, you're looking, you know, it's your social life.

• 13:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  So I'd get all dressed up and go and that's not my life now.

• 13:47Rich Roll?

  Right. No, it's not mine either. Like I go to, I basically go to men's. I go to like small men's meetings only. And it's very, only very occasionally do I pop in at like a sundowners or a place like that.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  I can't.

• 14:01Rich Roll?

  And I'm like, wow, you know, I used to like look so forward to that.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 14:05Rich Roll?

  But now it just seems so bizarre.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  I know. I just, I hate it.

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  I guess that's growth. I don't know.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Or just us like retreating in ourselves.

• 14:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you're sober five years now?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  I'll be five years in January 2nd. Yeah.

• 14:20Rich Roll?

  Congrats.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Not my first sobriety.

• 14:22Rich Roll?

  No, it's not. We were talking before the podcast, you're like, oh yeah, January 2nd. It's like the lamest thing ever. Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  It's just a cheesy date. It's like, okay, so you're still hungover on New Years and like did hair the dog that day? And then the second you were like, okay, I get it together. My resolution. It's like. I don't know.

• 14:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but then when you back it up, when you back the truck up and like really get connected with the your crazy story.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  It was so bad. It was so bad.

• 14:49Rich Roll?

  So let's take it back.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:51Rich Roll?

  Let's start. Should we start at the beginning?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Where were you? You're the boss.

• 14:54Rich Roll?

  What it was like, what happened.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  You're the boss.

• 14:57Rich Roll?

  No, this is an open-ended conversation. It's not an interview. But yeah, you grew up in LA. You grew up in Beverly Hills.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Grew up in Laurel Canyon and in Benedict Canyon. I went to school in Bel Air. It's like, you know, I didn't, you know, I was privileged. My parents split when I was two. There's a lot of alcoholism and mental illness in my family. So I feel like genetically I was like loaded up with that from the beginning.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  But even from like, I don't know, nine years old, I had that weird feeling that everyone talks about, which is like not fitting in, not being good enough, not kind of really getting, you know, how things worked and feeling like, am I missing this manual that everyone has, just, you know?

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  So what kind of kid were you? Like, what was your crowd? What kind of music were you listening to?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I went to Catholic school, even though I'm a Jew, for junior high. And then I went to an all-girls private uniform school. I was a good girl. I mean, that's what's weird. It was like, I was super in a purity. What was I listening to? I was listening to like, Go West and Howard Jones. And it was like, you know, and I was like a straight A student. And I didn't kiss anyone and I didn't smoke cigarettes and nothing. I mean, I was super in a purity.

• 16:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was, I was, I was the same.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was. Really?

• 16:18Rich Roll?

  And I was very judgmental.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 16:20Rich Roll?

  Of everybody who was going out partying.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 16:22Rich Roll?

  Because I was like super into school and like my sport and I was very focused on that. And I would be like, you're never gonna go anywhere in life. You know, it's like the joke was on me later, you know?

• 16:32Speaker 01

  I know.

• 16:32Rich Roll?

  What is that?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  It's like everything I judged, I became, it was like, I was really, really snobby about it. I was just like, oh my God. Like drugs are a cop-out and like you need to be present and like feel your feelings and reality. It was like, oh. And then fast forward, you know, it's like six rehabs. People are like, I mean, I was the last person people thought was gonna end up a drug addict.

• 16:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And yeah, I was really sexually kind of weird too. It was like, I mean, I didn't kiss anyone until I was 18 years old. I knew this was my virginity until I was 19. I was just obsessed with purity.

• 17:06Rich Roll?

  The Catholic school thing?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  No, I was just weirdly obsessed with purity and I was afraid. I was afraid of life.

• 17:12Rich Roll?

  A reaction to the chaos in your household?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  I mean, to be honest, I think it was a reaction to my father being sort of my primary caretaker. My mother was living in Mexico when I was going through puberty. So my father was my father and my mother. And I didn't really wanna become a woman and become sexual and I thought that that would make him pull away from me. And I needed, he was my main parent and I needed to stay close to him and I was, so I sort of stayed asexual.

• 17:41Rich Roll?

  So you couldn't bifurcate your intimacy?

• 17:43Speaker 01

  You know, yeah. So wow.

• 17:46Rich Roll?

  And he's like a creative dude, screenwriter?

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, screenwriter, writer. Yeah, I used to do porn, I used to write porn in the 60s. Like softcore, like cheesy, those like novels.

• 17:55Rich Roll?

  Did you know that when you were young?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  God, I don't remember when I, when I found that out, but like, you know, he, those things like The Throbbing Manhood, like those cheesy cheesy books, like with Larry, him and Larry Block and all those guys on Westlake used to write that. And that's how they made their living in their twenties in New York, playing poker and writing these softcore books. And then he wrote A Man Who Wrote Dirty Books, which was about a pornographer. And then that got him into movies and then he was a screenwriter and TV writer.

• 18:24Rich Roll?

  But he, but he kind of made it in Hollywood, right?

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Totally, absolutely.

• 18:27Rich Roll?

  Working writer?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 18:29Rich Roll?

  Bunch of credits and stuff like that.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  But, you know, he has not read the book and he's like, I've told my friends. No way, are you kidding?

• 18:35Rich Roll?

  Cause he's too scared?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  He's not scared, but I just don't think he want, I don't want him to read, some of those scenes are really, the sex addiction scenes are really dark and mortifying. I don't think he wants to see his little girl that way. And I also, it's funny, when I had my book soup opening, he was there, he flew down from Oregon and I said, come on, you wrote porn. And he goes, I made it up. Your shit is real.

• 19:02Rich Roll?

  That's a good point.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Like, I was like frightened, you know?

• 19:05Rich Roll?

  When you were writing, were you, did you have that, uh, did you have to overcome that resistance of, you know, if my dad reads this, what's he gonna?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  I knew he wasn't going to. He doesn't want, yeah, yeah. I mean, even my boyfriend at the time, it was the happy ending, who is no longer in my life, didn't, he started to read the book, he started crying like four pages in, and he's a normie, and I was like, this book is not for you. You're not gonna be able to handle it.

• 19:31Rich Roll?

  If you're a normie, you're like, what universe does this person live on?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's gnarly. And it's like, and I didn't, also, my parents lived through all of that, like IV drug use and seizures, and it was like, my mom's read it, and she, um, but she's in recovery, so.

• 19:46Rich Roll?

  What did she say?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  She just was more upset about the way I depicted her.

• 19:54Rich Roll?

  Classic alcoholic. It's about her.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  What about me? Um, it made her really sad, actually, you know? She's like, she remembers all those times. I didn't, my father was extremely freaked out by my drug use. So, I mean, I remember, uh, I guess I was, I went up to Oregon once, and I was, it was a relapse, and I had track marks all over my arms, and it was like a hun, it was like ninety something degrees in Ashland, and I'm wearing a t-shirt, and he goes, put a fucking sweatshirt on. And I was like, well, it's so hot. He goes, I don't wanna see that. I wanna see you as my kid. I don't wanna see you as a drug addict. I can just continue to see you as my kid.

• 20:35Rich Roll?

  It's like a weird denial, though.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:36Rich Roll?

  You know, and, and, and even with not reading the book, too.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 20:40Rich Roll?

  Like, I just don't wanna know.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  He always thought it was-

• 20:42Rich Roll?

  I mean, I can't, as a father of young girls, though, I guess, you know, I'm trying to imagine, like, my daughter wrote the book that you, you wrote, it would be heartbreaking.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't wanna hear that men treated your daughter like that, or that she hated herself, that she was allowing it, or she put herself through that, or she was so self-destructive. So, his girlfriend read him the safe parts.

• 21:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Alright, so you're in Catholic school, you're goody-two-shoes, you're, you know, you're, you're shaving everyone around you. So where does it start to shift? Like, where do you, what's your entry point?

• 21:13Speaker 01

  So, I'm in college, I'm nineteen, and I'm a virgin, and I've never drank, and I'm a weirdo. Going to school at Emerson, and I realize I'm a freak, and this thing that I was like so proud of is like this horrible albatross around my neck, and everyone's fucking, and everyone's getting drunk, and I'm- Like, I feel out of it. So I'm like, I gotta get rid of all this stuff.

• 21:35Rich Roll?

  When you were in high school, though, did you go, I mean, you're a very extroverted person. And you're funny, right? So I would imagine you still, were you going to the parties and stuff like that?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  No, I really wasn't. Really wasn't. I wasn't a party girl at all then. I've never really been a party girl. Even when I was using, it was like me and the cat.

• 21:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Like, and like, listening to.

• 21:53Rich Roll?

  Last word.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Nine Inch Nails. What started?

• 21:55Rich Roll?

  It begins.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  I'm weirdly socially freaked out. Like, I have like, social anxiety. Like, I don't, I don't know. Like, I didn't like clubs. I kind of, bars were okay, but clubs have always terrified me. Always.

• 22:10Rich Roll?

  So you're in Emerson?

• 22:12Speaker 01

  So I'm Emerson. So I started drinking. I had my first blackout at 20. You know, but it's college. And everyone's throwing up and everyone's skipping class. And so my drinking doesn't look that different from anyone else's. And it was fun and I liked it, but it wasn't, I didn't feel that click. You know, where I was like, ah, this is what I need for my, you know, to be on the planet.

• 22:31Rich Roll?

  It wasn't like that.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  It wasn't, not booze. So I have my first nervous breakdown at 19.

• 22:38Rich Roll?

  What was that about?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  I don't even know. I mean, I was anorexic, was depressed. I mean, again, I have like, a lot of depression in my family. Uh, I lost my virginity. It was a horrible, horrible experience. I just kind of fell apart.

• 22:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  And, and then I had another nervous breakdown at like, 23.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  And then I was driving to San Francisco. You know, you've heard, I don't know if you've heard of like, the year of yes, the year that, that. Is it Shonda Rhimes that wrote a book called The Year of Yes? Or wrote an essay? Well, it's funny, because I wrote an essay for addiction.com called The Year, My Year of Yes. So I'm driving to San Francisco in my 67 navy blue T-bird. You know, and I'm like, oh, you know, I don't, I, I was like, I knew I was really shut down. And I was like, I gotta figure out who I am. I'm gonna figure out who I am by who I'm not. So I'm gonna say yes to every opportunity that comes my way. So, yeah, yeah, right?

• 23:39Rich Roll?

  You can get it in some dark nasty places pretty quick.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Well, that's exactly what happened.

• 23:43Rich Roll?

  Drinking and using.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Well, I hadn't started using really. So I was just like, you know, I'm gonna say yes to every sexual experience that comes my way. Men, women, whatever, vegetables, let's do this. You know, it was like, drugs, performing, let's do it. Let's see, let's see who we are. And that's how I got into crystal meth, which was the drug for me that felt like it made me feel normal.

• 24:06Rich Roll?

  So walk me through that, that experience because I think what's interesting is we all make these rules like, oh, well, I do this, but I'm never, I'm not that person or I'm never gonna do that, right? You know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a professional cyclist, but I would never dope or I'm a, I'm a, I work in a hedge fund, but I would never be an insider trader or, you know, yeah, I'm an alcoholic, but I would never do IV drugs.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I cross all those lines.

• 24:32Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? So like, what's super interesting is like that first, like what, what, what the kind of environment that, that is conducive to, you know, stepping over that line for the first time.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Well, like I said, I'd made the decision to sort of be open to experiences and I didn't realize how prone to addiction I was. I'd never been around addicts. I hadn't seen it. I didn't know.

• 24:56Rich Roll?

  But it was in your, it was in your family.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I didn't really get, get it. You know, my mom had been an alcoholic and addicted to amphetamines for 15 years and my uncle had been addicted to amphetamines and there's a lot of like schizophrenia and like, you know, electrocution, fulsome therapy and people in asylums. And it was like, I didn't really know the extent of it. So I think I did ecstasy and I like, I stroked this young pierced couple and we were like, I was like, okay, you know, when you're on, you know, it's like, I was like 24 and they were like 18 and they were like super pierced in San Francisco. And it was like, you know, I, ecstasy never really worked on me. I just, maybe I just don't have enough dopamine or maybe because I've been on antidepressants

• 25:40Speaker 01

  since I was 19 years old, like that I just, it never really, I never really got the feeling that everyone talked about, so. I was working as a waitress and I was working as a dishwasher because it's San Francisco man and it's cool to like do low end jobs and like panhandle and you know, so I was like totally

• 25:59Rich Roll?

  There is that weird thing in San Francisco.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. So it was like I pretend I didn't have a trust fund. I was like pretend I was a totally different person. I had like a pierced lip and I was like, you know, doing this whole thing. And I was so tired because I'd been up all night with the pierced couple and um, a neighbor offered me some pinkish powder. I didn't even know what it was. I didn't even ask. He's like, this will help you get you through your waitressing shift at the Ethiopian restaurant. And I was like, okay, cool. And so I snorted it and it was like, woo, it burned. And I was like, very, very shaky and I didn't like it. I was like, I don't think I'm gonna do that again. Fast forward, those are the most common words ever, right? I'm not gonna do that again. Um, fast forward, I'm in the sort

• 26:41Speaker 01

  of spoken word scene with all the junky poets in San Francisco and someone offers it to me again. And I do it again. And this time, the experience is totally different. For whatever reason, it's different stuff. I have no idea. But I felt a click and I felt normal.

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  And you were like, this is it?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  This is it. I was like, this is Prozac with wings. I don't know what the psychiatrists are fucking around with. Like, this is what I've needed my whole life. I feel confident, beautiful, I have energy, I'm creative. Like, I need this to be on the planet.

• 27:09Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And so there was some, on some level, conscious or otherwise, there was an intention that was kind of put in place that this was gonna be, this was gonna be what you were gonna be doing.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I thought I was kind of experimenting. I was just, you know, I was like, oh, I'm experimenting, even though it was like every day, all day.

• 27:28Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Um, I didn't really see that I was sort of getting strung out.

• 27:34Rich Roll?

  And were you drinking too, to take the edge off that so you could sleep? Or was it just basically it became about meth?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was drinking then, um, too, but eventually, I mean, true tweakers don't drink. We don't wanna, we don't wanna take the edge off our high. We want that grindy high. And so eventually I didn't really, I just was doing crystal.

• 27:56Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Uh, and then I got this like weird infection in my face and my nose from snorting all this like street crank. And I kind of called my parents and I was like, I'm sick. And they came up and, you know, they figured out what was going on and they were like, whoa. And they dragged me back to LA to be sober and I was sober for about two months, but I was drinking every night, like two bottles of wine in my house, writing and I was like, I'm, it's like Hemingway, Bukowski and it's cool to write and be a drunkard and, you know, I'm like 24 years old. And then I started doing crystal again and, oh, it was like, that was the next like year and a half of like staying up for like

• 28:37Speaker 01

  five to 17 days in a row and refinishing furniture and dumpster diving and the whole tweaker world, taking apart electronics and.

• 28:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and the characters that start to come into your life.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, tweakers, I mean, the tweaker scene in LA is much darker than the tweaker scene in San Francisco. It was like really low bottom people, like talk, lower, lower companion.

• 28:59Rich Roll?

  And, you know, you're an attractive woman and you're putting yourself into like a really vulnerable, dangerous situation by doing that.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  I know.

• 29:07Rich Roll?

  I mean.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  I never got, I never got like assaulted or molested or.

• 29:13Rich Roll?

  It's crazy that that didn't happen, actually.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Which is really, I know, because I was living by myself and I was so naive. I mean, I was really kind of fronting. I sort of put on this like front that I was sort of like a badass, but you know, there's this, a bit in the book where those Mexican gangsters are at my house and like, hey, you know, you know, anyone who wants to buy this? And I was like, I don't even know what that is. They're like, it's a gun silencer, man. I was like, whoa, am I out of my league? You know, it's like, oh, I was like, I'm, let me ask around, you know, just, I was like, I'm gonna die, you know? I got ripped off a couple of times and stuff like that, but.

• 29:47Rich Roll?

  And when did you start to develop a sense of like, all right, this is getting out of control, like maybe I want to reel this back or quit altogether? Like what was the internal monologue?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Well, there was like times where there were speed droughts in California during that period where no one had any. And I real, and I couldn't get out of bed. I'd start to go through, I mean, you can't really get physically addicted, like I would, I just couldn't get out of bed. And I was like, ooh.

• 30:15Rich Roll?

  It's like your hormonal system is so screwed up.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Adrenaline or whatever. I literally couldn't get a shower. I couldn't put my arms over my head, like I was gray. And I was like, this is kind of, you know? And also, it stopped working. I felt my depression sort of surfaced up above the crystal, the high of the crystal. So then I'm high and I'm also depressed.

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  And I would just cry, smoke meth off foil and listen to Nirvana and lay in the bathtub for hours. And I was like, this is not good.

• 30:50Rich Roll?

  And what were you doing at the time? Like, where are your parents in all this?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  My mom's in Santa Fe, my dad's in Oregon, I'm living off a trust fund, but I kept like blowing through my rent, you know, because I had a huge habit.

• 31:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  I had like, I was doing, I was smoking like a, like a half an eight ball every day and a half.

• 31:09Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  That's a lot of crystal.

• 31:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How did you not like lose your teeth and stuff?

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Well, I have epilepsy now.

• 31:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:16Rich Roll?

  As a result of that?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:18Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  But I have my teeth and it's LA. That's what's important.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Right? No one, um, I don't know. I just have good teeth.

• 31:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  It's just genetics, but it did screw my brain up. I have like hyperactive lesions on my frontal lobe now. And I have for 15 years now. It's a totally direct result of that.

• 31:37Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  But, um, so then I started buying and selling to cover my habit because my dad kept saying, I was like, I misbudgeted. And he was like, hmm.

• 31:47Rich Roll?

  And he knows what's going on.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm not ready to, I refuse to go to treatment.

• 31:53Rich Roll?

  And he never said like, I'm going to cut you off until?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  That was later. They were afraid to. They were afraid like I'd become a hooker or like a major drug dealer. They were scared. They didn't know what to do. I mean, they were really frightened. I wouldn't go to AA. I went to see an addiction, an addiction specialist.

• 32:12Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  And I just like, you know, talked my way around this guy and he deemed me an atypical addict because I was like, well, you know, I've been diagnosed as borderline, you know, look at all these, these studies that say amphetamines are the best things for borderline. I mean, I just went, I was too smart, way too smart for it. But I did see one psychiatrist. And I said, I had a physician's desk reference, like every good drug addict. And so you know, like what you're going in, looking for. So you know what you're, gotta say what's wrong with you.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  What you have to say in order to get the appropriate script.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  And so I was trying to get pharmaceutical speed. And she was on to me and she was just like, you know, she gave me like slow release tablets, which of course didn't work at all. I was so pissed. I like tried to boil them down and crush them. Yeah, nothing. I was like, fuck. So I go back and I was like, no, I need like the, you know. And she goes, I think you, you know, I think you need to go to AAA. And I was like, fuck you lady. And I didn't go. I wasn't ready to go. I knew I was a drug addict, but I,

• 33:21Speaker 01

  I was scared to let it go. I was really scared that I would not be able to function on the planet without it.

• 33:28Rich Roll?

  Of course. I think that's the thing that people don't get. That normal people don't really fully understand that, you know, it's a, it's not a matter of intellectually understanding what's happening. Of course you do, you know, you, you know, it's out of control.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I was writing about it.

• 33:44Rich Roll?

  You're just powerless to stop it. And the fear, the terror of, of addressing it far exceeds the misery that you experience by perpetuating it.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I was already super, super, super depressed while I was on speed. And I just thought, if I take the speed away, I'm going to just fall through the floor. I mean, I, I, I'll kill myself. Like I, I'll just be swallowed up by my grief and my depression. And I just, I was just so terrified to let it go. But I was very aware that I was a drug addict and I was kind of embracing it. I was like, I'm a junk, you know, like I'm a junkie. I was writing all about it. I was reading Burroughs at the time. I was totally like into it. Oh, yeah. I was all about it.

• 34:26Rich Roll?

  When you were, were you writing about it publicly?

• 34:29Speaker 01

  I was, no, I was writing about it. Yeah. I was writing a book. Yeah. While I was high, you know, and talking about how I'm in love with the drug. Yeah. They're so frightening. They're so frightening. They're in like this container. They're not bad. They're not bad, but it's like, there's weird, like, I was really into collaging at the time. So there's like weird collage, like, you know, there's like, you just, you like glued over things. I was like, it's, ugh.

• 34:57Rich Roll?

  You could make another book out of that.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I'm sure. I just couldn't even bear to read it. I was, I wanted to delve into it for this book, but I was just so freaked out. It's still in like a sealed container in my kitchen.

• 35:08Rich Roll?

  I think that that is also common with, you know, most people who are, who are creatively inclined, who are addicts, the fear of, of letting go of, of the, the substance is tremendous because you have this sense that that's what's feeling the creativity.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 35:25Rich Roll?

  That is, like, if you remove that, then you'll never write a song again. Forget about writing a book. Like, you're, you're never gonna have a, an interesting, original thought ever again.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  I've written a couple. I wrote a piece for The Fix about that called Too Sober to Be Creative.

• 35:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  And I wrote, actually, uh, this guy, Simon Mason, who is a British musician and had written a memoir, Too High, Too Far, I can't remember the total name of it, but he, um, asked me for some quotes about that. And it's like, so I was, I, I, I actually, yeah, I was very aware of that, too. And it's like, and I'm aware, too, like, you know, it was like when I was doing stand-up. It was like, when you're happy, it's, there's, no one wants to hear, like, "I'm so happy." That's not funny. What's funny is like, "I'm living in a studio with four other dudes and, you know, you know, my, like, no one will date me," and, you know, that kind of stuff.

• 36:14Rich Roll?

  Right, well, the, the relationship between comedy and pain.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 36:17Rich Roll?

  Is intertwined.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  And the same thing with, like, I was like, what am I gonna write about?

• 36:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Like, what am I gonna write about? Like, you know, what am I, what's my next book gonna be about?

• 36:27Rich Roll?

  I have a trust fund and I live in, you know, I grew up, you know, in Beverly, the Beverly Hills area.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  I mean, even like, my next book, I'm like, what am I gonna, do I have to burn my life to the ground to have material again? It's like, I said, you know, it's like, I don't know what, I'm sure, you know, something will come up. Because once you have an attitude and a voice, people will follow you, you know? And it's like that. They wanna see it through your lens. And I'm obnoxious and whatever and strange, so.

• 36:50Rich Roll?

  And, and you know well enough that, from being around the recovery community in Los Angeles, you see these broken artists who come in, um...

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  And then when they, when they get it, when they get sober, like their careers, their creativity, their output just goes through the roof.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 37:08Rich Roll?

  So you see time and time again that that myth that we hold on to so dearly is just an illusion.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't doing nothing.

• 37:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Except like plucking my eyebrows. You know what I mean? And like, yeah.

• 37:22Rich Roll?

  So when's the first like come to Jesus moment?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  I walked into a market and I woke up in an ambulance. And they were like.

• 37:31Rich Roll?

  Blacked out, you don't know what happened.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  I don't even, I think I had a seizure. That's what they think. And so I'm strapped to a gurney and they said, did you do some drugs tonight? And I said, obviously some really shitty ones. Because here I am, still obnoxious, still, right? Still an asshole, just had a seizure, still an asshole. And they're like, can you tell us who the president is? I was like, of course. Just totally blank. I mean, my mind was blank. They're like, what's your name? And I was like, I just blank. It was really frightening. So they did a CAT scan, they fed me a sandwich, they charcoaled me and they let me go. But that scared, that scared me enough to go into treatment. And I went into treatment and I was in a dual diagnosis treatment for two months. And then I was in sober living for four months.

• 38:17Rich Roll?

  Was that in LA?

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:18Rich Roll?

  Or where was that? Uh huh. And so why didn't that stick?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  It did stick. Well, it stuck sort of, so I, I stayed away from crystal. I went to, I was going to meetings and I was hating it. I was like, this is creepy. I don't dig it. You know, I didn't think I was an alcoholic. I thought I was just a drug addict. I stayed clean and sober for about a year and then I was like, I can drink. Let's try this. And I was in a blackout for three weeks drinking.

• 38:44Rich Roll?

  So was the idea though, like I'll drink, but I won't do meth?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. Of course. And drinking made me, you know, a monstrous, naked, violent lunatic immediately. And I would blackout and I was like, okay, maybe not. So then I stayed sort of dry for like six, seven years. I was living in Paris. I lived in London. I didn't touch it.

• 39:07Rich Roll?

  And what were you doing during that time?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Doing fashion. I was doing, I had a fashion. Fashion line with this British designer. Um, and then I relapsed in England. I had another nervous breakdown. And I was, I took a box, I was gonna kill myself. And so I thought, well, let's just go out. Let's pop a bottle of wine like.

• 39:25Rich Roll?

  And during that time, were you dealing with the psychological stuff?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:30Rich Roll?

  Psych meds or anything like that?

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I've always been on psych meds. I'm nuts. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I'm only on antidepressants now and medication for my epilepsy, but like, I've tried everything. I mean, they're like, you're borderline, you're bipolar, you're this, you're that. And it's like, the more that I've done the work on myself, a lot of that's fallen away. And I've started to stabilize.

• 39:51Rich Roll?

  But psychologically, you know, to be hearing that all the time, and then also to be, you know, clearly struggling with this profound drug habit. And alcoholism has to be, you know, emotionally destabilizing. Like, everybody's telling me I have this disorder and that disorder, and I can't stop using drugs. Like, you know, that's, that's a very desperate state of mind to be walking around with like, this is my identity.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Well, uh, yeah, well, I just clung to it. And I was like, I'm broken.

• 40:18Rich Roll?

  So you just like, you, you, instead of like, shirking from that, you just own it?

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I owned it. I was like, I'm broken and crazy, and everyone needs to take care of me. And that's how I manipulated my parents and everybody. And, you know, was like, I need to be taken care of. And, you know, I'm, I got married, you know, to someone who I thought would take care of me. Well, you don't know how that ended.

• 40:41Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, a lot of the book is about that relationship and, you know, the sort of climactic moment of.

• 40:48Rich Roll?

  Well, let's talk about that.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  You know, so how long were you married, uh, before this all, this whole?

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Three and a half years.

• 40:55Rich Roll?

  Culminating in this episode?

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Three and a half years.

• 40:57Rich Roll?

  Right, okay.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  And it was crumbling, and I was really not a good wife. I was super mentally ill. I was very depressed. I'd lay in bed all day. I was on a lot of medications. And then I would go and tell dick jokes at night. You know what I mean? I was doing comedy or whatever.

• 41:10Rich Roll?

  When did the comedy come into it?

• 41:12Speaker 01

  I started doing comedy around 39 when I first got sober, because I was sharing in the rooms and people, I was just being honest. But I guess I'm so outrageous and so incredibly gruesomely honest that people were hysterical. And so a couple of comics came up to me and they're like, you should really think about doing stand up. So I did. So I started doing stand-up and I ended up touring and it was great.

• 41:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it was like, it wasn't just like, oh, I think I'll like try open mic. Like you had a whole thing going on.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did for five years. I was like, you know, at the store, at the improv. I went on a tour with two other sober comics. I did the whole thing and it was great.

• 41:51Rich Roll?

  How come you didn't, you know, stay with that?

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Well, when you get arrested and you have a nervous breakdown and try and kill yourself and relapse and you lose everything, your sort of, your, your attention is sort of more on like, how am I going to survive this divorce and criminal trial and get sober? And like, find a way to eat versus like, you know, like, you know, hey, can I get a spot on your 10 o'clock show, you know?

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  I get that. I mean, I get, I get why it was interrupted, but now with, with five years.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  I don't miss it. I don't miss it.

• 42:24Rich Roll?

  So you don't have that like comic thing where like they just have to get off.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  No, I don't miss it at all. I don't miss it at all.

• 42:30Rich Roll?

  The, the, the comedy aspect of itself or just the fact that you have to sort of be in these dark places?

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want, you know, I'm older now. I'm sober. You know, I, I can be funny in my writing from the comfort of my own home. And I don't have to, I don't want to be around people that are drinking. I don't want to be out at 12:30 at night waiting for a spot. I'm just, I'm over it.

• 42:53Rich Roll?

  You're over it, yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm over the grind too, man. You know, it's a grind. It's like, yeah. You gotta really, really keep at it. You got, you know, and it's like, I just don't have that energy. And also I have, I really, I like writing better because it's like you can deliver a message. Like I have a message. There's stuff I want to talk about. I don't want to just be funny. But I also want to be funny because like if that book wasn't funny, you'd blow your brains out.

• 43:16Rich Roll?

  Oh, it's just be, it's so devastating. Even, even with the humor, it's devastating.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  People were like, I had to put it down.

• 43:22Rich Roll?

  It's digestible because of the humor.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  I knew that though. I was like, you have, I mean, going through it, I had to find the humor. Otherwise I was like, I can't, I'm not going to make it through this. And I knew that reading it, if I didn't give people some space, some levity and some places to kind of,

• 43:38Speaker 01

  take a rest, they were just going to be like, oh my God, let me garrot myself with dental floss right now. Like, oh, this is so dark. Some people rip through it in like a night. And other people are like, I had to put it down and like come back to it. Like it got so intense where it triggered me so much or whatever, but.

• 43:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  So I just don't miss stand up.

• 43:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 44:06Rich Roll?

  All right, so you're married for

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Three and a half years. It's no bueno.

• 44:11Rich Roll?

  It's unraveling.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's Christmas 2011 and we get in a fight and I'm high on oxy that I'd been prescribed for a shoulder injury. I guess I'd had about a year and a half back sober then again.

• 44:25Rich Roll?

  Without AA though, just

• 44:26Speaker 01

  No, I was in AA.

• 44:27Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were in AA.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, right.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  I had three and a half years. I had three and a half years and then I tried to kill myself with with my epilepsy meds and I my sponsor at the time made me reset my time. I'm like, I wasn't trying to get high. I was trying to die. And she's like, well, did you take your medication as prescribed? I'm like, no, I took all of it. She's like, there's your answer. I was like.

• 44:50Rich Roll?

  Why epilepsy medicine?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  It was phenobarbital. It's phenobarbital. Yeah, it's like what all everyone's dog is on.

• 44:57Rich Roll?

  And so what was going on that made you that desperate?

• 45:00Speaker 01

  I was just unhappy in that marriage. That marriage was not good. We were not a good match. It was not good.

• 45:05Rich Roll?

  And he's normie.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  No comment.

• 45:08Rich Roll?

  Okay. All right. So it's 2011.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Um, and we get in a fight and I just

• 45:18Speaker 01

  I pull up knife and I'm like, I'll gut you like a fish, you fat fuck. And he called the cops on me and I got arrested for felony domestic violence with a deadly weapon and went to jail.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  And that was, I mean, I thought I had hit bottom before, but that was a brand, I mean, what, you know, what every parent dreams for their, you know, Beverly Hills daughter who graduated magna cum laude to get arrested for felony domestic violence, you know. I mean, whether I would have done that if I hadn't been high, well, I'll never know. I've never done it since. I would hope, I'm not generally like super violent, although I was pretty abusive in that marriage. I just wasn't, I was really mentally ill at the time and it just wasn't a good match. But yeah, so that was sort of, I lost everything. And I went to stay with my

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Best Friend in Eagle Rock and Try and Get Clean. And of course, you know, a classic alcoholic addict. It's like, you've ruined your life with your addiction. Does that make you stop? No, now you're gonna drink and drug over the mess.

• 46:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. I mean, yeah, I had a, my version of that, which was like a, you know, wedding that ended the day that it, you know, like, ended on the honeymoon and I haven't seen the woman since.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  It's the whole thing, but like, everybody that I loved was witness to this thing. And it was so horribly demoralizing and painful. And I was so ashamed of it that you'd think like, well, that should get you sober. But, you know, it took me a year, year and a half of like medicating myself because I couldn't deal with that emotionally.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Of course. So I'm drinking over that. I'm trying to get sober. I'm going to meetings. I'm going, and then, uh, you know, I'll get some time and then I'll slip and I'll get some time and I'll slip. And, you know, I'm going through this horrible divorce and I just,

• 47:23Speaker 01

  I took a knife and slit my wrists and sent pictures to, which is so stupid. Like, you know, I sent pictures to my ex and I sent pictures to my friends and I was like, bye. You know, really dramatic, you know, listening to Nine Inch Nails, like really like, where is everybody on loop? And just like, poor me, like drunk on Four Loko, which is so gnarly, that stuff. And I got 5150 for the fourth time. And that was sort of, after that, I went into treatment, you know.

• 47:59Rich Roll?

  The, the sending the pictures part of it is sort of, seems to me to be half like, I'll show you how much pain I'm in.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Of course, it was totally that.

• 48:09Rich Roll?

  And the other half is like, I don't really want to kill myself.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 48:12Rich Roll?

  It's a cry for help.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 48:13Rich Roll?

  Come and get me before I die.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Exactly that, of course, of course that, you know.

• 48:18Rich Roll?

  I think that what's probably the most powerful, uh, aspect of your book.

• 48:25Rich Roll?

  Is that it is about relapse. It is, it's embracing this nonlinear path to sobriety. Because one would imagine if somebody's listening to this and they're hearing your story for the first time, like, oh, my God, you know, you pull this knife and this thing happens, like, that's your moment. And then, you know, you're, you're brought to your knees and then it's the journey to sobriety, you know, and then it's this

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  Straight line into, you know, detox treatment,

• 48:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:49Rich Roll?

  Sober living and rebuilding your life.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:51Rich Roll?

  And, and that happens for some people, but that's a small minority

• 48:56Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 48:57Rich Roll?

  Of the recovery population.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  People are like, relapse doesn't have to be part of recovery. I'm like, for real? Like, for most people, it is. Yeah, I, I relapsed in this sober living, then I relapsed in the next sober living, and then I got clean and I've stayed clean since. But then I got this sex addiction. It was like, I just couldn't, I had, you know,

• 49:13Rich Roll?

  We're gonna talk about that.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  And also, you know, there was that whole period where I was shooting cocaine.

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we haven't even talked about that.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 49:20Rich Roll?

  There's so many chapters.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  I know. There's stories that aren't even in there, too. It's like,

• 49:25Rich Roll?

  But the point being that when somebody hears, like, when a normal person hears, like, that somebody's struggling with sobriety relapses, they're like, oh, A, it doesn't work, or that person's weak, or why can't they get it? Why don't they understand? They have all the support they need. Relapse is, for most people, an integral part of the

• 49:44Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 49:44Rich Roll?

  journey to sobriety.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 49:46Rich Roll?

  And, and I think it's important that people understand if they are struggling themselves, or they have somebody that they love, or someone who's in their life that is dealing with this right now, that, you know, that's normal.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  I agree. I mean, you know, I learned a lot from my relapses and I also, I mean, sometimes I thought it would be different. Some, you know, that was the whole thing. I just didn't want to totally give everything up. And I thought, well, I can just smoke pot, because I hate pot.

• 50:14Rich Roll?

  Right. It's, you have to, you

• 50:16Speaker 01

  You have to do all this.

• 50:17Rich Roll?

  No matter how many people tell you, like, look, you gotta, you gotta do it, like, just let go of your ideas and come in and let us help you. You have to do your own experimentation.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 50:26Rich Roll?

  Because you're a precious, unique snowfla, snowflake, and you, you, people don't understand your unique pain and your story.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 50:34Rich Roll?

  And like, I'm gonna do it this way, and it's gonna work for me, even though everybody says it won't.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I think that You know, in terms of like saying, you know, I, I, I don't think AA is the only way to get sober, nor is it the best way for everyone. That's why there is smart recovery and refuge recovery. And whatever gets you sober, great. That's my attitude. I'm no, you know, AA works for me because it gives me a compass on not how to be like a total asshole. You know, how to navigate in the world. And, you know, and it's, and it's boiled down from a lot of really cool things from psychology and religions and stuff like that. So it's like, but I'm not like, if you get sober, you know, like, like Mishka, like running, great. Like, we're all trying to get to the same location. So who cares how you get there?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  I don't like this one upmanship among programs. I don't like that.

• 51:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I agree with that. I'm totally on your page with that. But I also think it's refreshing that you're somebody who, who really owns the fact that 12-step like saved your life and you're proud of that and you write about that.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  And even though I talk, I got, even though I take shots at it.

• 51:41Rich Roll?

  Well, it's fine to take shots at it, but you're, you're, you're, you are like a proud card carrying member of this community and to a certain, to a certain extent, right?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:50Rich Roll?

  And in a climate in which it's all about, um, you know, 12 steps antiquated and.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  It's cognitive behavioral therapy. I think that's what it is. I think it's cognitive behavioral therapy. And for someone like myself who is driven by emotions, I needed to take the action no matter how I felt. And that's the basis of AA. So I'm when, when you say, oh, well, you were in AA and it, you know, you relapsed. And so it means AA doesn't work. First of all, and this is something, this is a metaphor I always use. So like, okay, I have cancer and I do chemotherapy and I still die. Do people think chemotherapy doesn't work?

• 52:28Rich Roll?

  Of course not.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 52:30Rich Roll?

  Right. But it's easy to take a shot at AA for that reason. And that, and that's a big reason why there is the, you know, the, the tradition of anonymity.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't.

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  Let's talk about that a little bit because we're very openly talking about 12-step. And I, I, and I've said this before on the podcast, like, like yourself, I've been very open about my addiction and my recovery journey. And I talk about AA and 12-step, but I kind of skirt around the edges of it because I do want to be respectful of that principle. Like I've made a choice about my own anonymity and that's fine. And I would never like. Talk about any other people.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  That's exactly the same as me.

• 53:09Rich Roll?

  Learning like that, that's, that's definitely, you know, something I would never do. But I get conflicted when it comes to talking about the principles of this program that saved my life.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:26Rich Roll?

  Because a traditionalist would say that's verboten to even address that on something like a podcast. And yet, had I been privy to a conversation like this when I was struggling, I might have gone into recovery a lot sooner.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 53:43Rich Roll?

  Because I thought it was what I saw on television and in movies.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 53:47Rich Roll?

  Because that's all I knew about it.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 53:49Rich Roll?

  Because it is so shrouded in mystery.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:52Rich Roll?

  And had I had a better understanding of what it could do.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  That it's not some weird Christian cult.

• 53:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that I, that I might have gone in sooner. Now, I guess that's breaking that tradition.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  I think it's a different, I mean, I agree with you completely. And I think that there's a lot of misinformation and a lot of people are like, they think it's some weird Christian cult. That's what they think.

• 54:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  And I think there are some problems with the fellowship, for sure. And I do take shots at it.

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  Because the fellowship is composed of human beings.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Right. So it's a microcosm of the real world. You know, and I mean, what I talk about, like the sexual predatory behavior that happens in AA, well, that happens wherever there's a power hierarchy. You know, we're seeing it now in Hollywood. It happens in the military. It happens, you know, you're taking a bunch of sick people, you know, and they're, they've put down drugs and alcohol. What are they gonna go towards? Sex, caffeine, nicotine, gambling, shopping. They're still gonna be trying to get that rush or fill that hole or whatever. So it's like, um, oh yeah, I've gotten blowback for articles I've written where I take shots. And like, you know, she's too AA, she's not AA enough. It's like, this is, this is not a book about AA. This is a book about my experiences.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, I mean, there's stuff they cut that would, you know, A, people would Flip out about, but it's like real, like I got fucked by a sponsor and stuff like that. It's like during a relapse. It's like that shit happens though.

• 55:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's terrible.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  But it's like that shit happens and people need to know. I mean, I wish someone had pulled me aside and said, okay. You know, you're the hot new meat. Like, these are the predators, because it's always the same dudes.

• 55:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  And it's like, just FYI, you know, I wasn't taken aside and pulled into a group of women in the beginning. I was just kind of floundering around and it's like, I was never raped. I was willing participant, but it was like, I was definitely in a very vulnerable state. Where I'm counting, you know, days or weeks or months and these guys have double-digit sobriety and, you know, it's my, and I'm really sort of just need love and validation and attention and, you know, and then when they, you know, fuck you and don't ever call you again, throw you away, it's like, oh.

• 56:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's bad.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  It's, you know, it's like, I mean, they have more respect for that and it's like slaw. Because that's the main thing about it.

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  Sex and love addiction.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:14Rich Roll?

  So.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  And it's like, oh, and then I was in SAA too. It's like that. How funny are those scenes? Oh, my God. God.

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  We're gonna, we're gonna work our way up towards that. But while we're on this subject, I am interested, I mean, you've already kind of spoken to this, but the unique experience of what it's like to be a woman in, in AA or in recovery, right? Like, it's different than it is for guys.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 56:41Rich Roll?

  Way different.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  You know, and also I think in terms of like the anonymity thing. I was writing for Recovery, and I still do, Write For The Fix. So it's like, I'm in, I was going to meetings and I was in this, writing for Recovery magazine. So I was in this recovery bubble. So, I didn't need to be anonymous. But when I got out into the real world, like if I had like a corporate job, like maybe I would feel differently about it.

• 57:05Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I make my living off not, off talking about this stuff. And it's like, I mean, my, you know, my last boyfriend was a normie. And I got to see how normies feel about it. And it was like, very eye-opening.

• 57:23Rich Roll?

  In what way, specifically?

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Well, the stuff we laugh about is terrifying to them. It's horrifying. Horrifying. They don't think it's funny at all. They think, you know, it's sad. They think it's a measure of sickness. They don't realize that we can laugh. They also like, were like, you know, he would get in the car and he was like, oh my God, you have to have the music blasting. You, why do you need constant stimulation? Do you have to drink a six-shot latte? And be vaping and be rizzling and like, can you not just, you know? He was just horrified by like, the consumption, my consumption of everything. Um, and when I met his parents, we really, you know, everything would got put on the DL.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Well, she's, you know, had some problems. She was in rehab, you know, six rehabs and four psych wards and three suicide attempts became some problems. You know, and all of a sudden I felt like a weird shame. But I get it. Like, who wants their son? Like, you know?

• 58:21Rich Roll?

  Well, that's weird too, because you're so open about it and you do own it on such a profound level through the work that you do and just the personality that you have. And then to be in a relationship where you feel like you have to repress that.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, he, I was open with him, but like, you know, it freaked him out. And it was like, yeah, I had to sort of kind of keep it on the DL with his parents and that felt like shameful, but it's like, I get it. No one's going to be like, well, I hope you marry a junkie. You know, it's like, you know, I get it. I mean, I don't look good on paper.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? You know, like the domestic violence and the epilepsy and the mental illness. Like, it doesn't look great on paper. Like, I get it. But, um, you know, and I was also sort of, I think it needs to be talked about. I don't think you could break the stigma of addiction without breaking the stigma of recovery. And I think you have to, I think, uh, the most creative, by far most intelligent, brave people have come out of, uh, come out of addictions and what they do. And so it's like, you know, I- I think it's important to own it and to de-stigmatize it. And it's like, some people were like, oh, you say junkie. Like, I was on this Canadian podcast and they were like, we were afraid to put your book on our podcast,

• 59:37Speaker 01

  on our website because you say junkie. I'm like, I mean, to me, that's like owning it. It's like-

• 59:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a fear and there's a shame around that that isn't helpful, right? And I think you're, you're, you're so bold in, in the lengths that you've gone to just own it all the way to the wall. And I think it gives people permission to, uh, to own whatever they're struggling with themselves.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  That's been-

• 1:00:00Rich Roll?

  That's the transformative power of like being so, um, unfiltered.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  That's been the message, the, the sort of reception I've gotten from the messages from readers. They're like, God, thank you. Thank you for being real and raw and you've made me feel so much less ashamed and less alone. And you've made me laugh and I feel better and I have hope and like, you know, that's the other thing. Like when you relapse for 20 years and then get it together and write a book, like people have hope. They're like, fuck, you know, she can do it.

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  You know, it's like six rehabs. I'm like, don't give up, you know? It's like, you know, believe me, I had periods where it got really bad. Shooting coke in my neck, that was like not a good period at all. But it's like, I just, you know, it's like shooting coke with epilepsy, right? With the helmet, the helmet scene, oh God, which I thought was so smart.

• 1:00:46Rich Roll?

  Wearing a bike helmet so that you don't hurt yourself.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Right. I was like, I don't want, you know, because I kept shooting coke and I have a seizure. And I was like, I don't want to crack my head open, but I don't want to stop shooting cocaine. Oh my God, a bike helmet.

• 1:00:57Rich Roll?

  Right. That's the solution.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Right, of course, which seemed really brilliant at the time.

• 1:01:03Rich Roll?

  So insane.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  I know, it's lunacy.

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  But I was like, it's a high-impact sport. I gotta wear protective gear. Like, I get it. You know what I mean?

• 1:01:11Rich Roll?

  Was that part of your, did you use that in the stand-up?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  I think I did.

• 1:01:14Rich Roll?

  That story?

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I did. Does it sound too canned? Can you tell?

• 1:01:18Rich Roll?

  No, not at all. But like, it's so, it's so, it's so vivid. It's so specific.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  I mean, my mom even used it because I'd get emotional and she'd be like, honey, you sound like you're getting very upset. Will you put your helmet on, please? Like, because my, my seizures were also brought on by like, like emotion. If I'd get really, really upset and hysterical, bam, grandma seizure. Not, you know, as well as like rock star drinks and, you know, too much caffeine or whatever. But, um, honestly, that, that's my coping mechanism is I'm ashamed of something, so I completely own it.

• 1:01:53Rich Roll?

  Right. Because shame can't survive the light.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Then what are you gonna say? Oh, I, oh, you're a da-da-da. It's like, I wrote about it.

• 1:02:01Rich Roll?

  I already, yeah, I already.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  It's out there.

• 1:02:02Rich Roll?

  It's on the page.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  You know, I thought I'd feel really sort of nude when the book came out. And I'm like, oh, my God, because there's some really very mortifying sex scenes in there. But I don't. I feel almost freed by it.

• 1:02:17Rich Roll?

  Like cathartic.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like, you know, weirdly armored now. I feel sort of, yeah, I feel like.

• 1:02:23Rich Roll?

  Because there's no, there's nothing that anybody can pull covers on with you.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:27Rich Roll?

  Right? Yeah. I mean, my experience, my, you know, my story is nowhere near as crazy as yours. But there was a lot of stuff that when I was writing, I did, you know, I did feel uncomfortable writing, but I knew there was no reason to write the book unless I was gonna write about those things that made me uncomfortable.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:02:45Rich Roll?

  Like, that's the, that's the good stuff. Like, without that, there's no point, right?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Believe me, I wasn't like, God, I can't wait to write this black dildo scene. Like, you know what I mean? I was like, more, I was like, I don't want to write this.

• 1:02:56Rich Roll?

  And that's exactly why you, it's like when you're doing your, your inventory.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the stuff that has to go on.

• 1:03:02Rich Roll?

  You'll write all the stuff thing, and then there's like that one thing that I was like, yeah, I'm just not gonna write that. It's like, forget about everything else. That's the one thing that you have to laser in on and focus on.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:03:12Rich Roll?

  And that's what you learn. That's what you learn.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Rich Roll?

  Through this program, through this process of trying to own your bullshit.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20Rich Roll?

  And so, yeah, so when I was writing it, I was like, I had to get into a mindset of, I'm writing a diary and no one's gonna read this because otherwise it was too terrifying. And I remember when I turned the book into my editor, to the, to the publishing house, and the manuscript was done, I was like, I said to my wife, I was like, this is either like the worst decision I've ever made in my life, or, you know, this will be what I, what, you know, what I want it to be. Like, there's no in-between, right?

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. Totally.

• 1:03:47Rich Roll?

  And of course, it's those moments of vulnerability that really anchor the book and what people gravitate towards. And you're, there isn't a single page in your book where you're not doing that. And it is so empowering. Like, it's very, it's a, it's a very courageous act.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:04:02Rich Roll?

  Because you're very extroverted and, and yes, you, in some, in some respects. I see you as somebody who kind of almost wears this, wears these stories on your sleeve as armor against, is almost like a barrier to intimacy. Like, look at all the crazy stuff I did. Like, I would imagine that's more of your challenge than the fear of being public about some of these things.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  But I took that off in this last relationship, despite it ending. I really, he wasn't interested. He didn't buy into that.

• 1:04:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  He was just like, I don't see it as being cool. I don't think you're a badass. I think you're a girl that had some problems. And I think that that's kind of like a measure of how sick you are and it makes me sad. So don't, don't pull that card with me that you're like such a badass. Cause, you know, so I was very intimate and vulnerable with him and I took off all that armor and, you know, cried more in that relationship. And was really open and loving and vulnerable. And, I mean, that just, that ends and, you know, we were together for another year or a year and a half after that.

• 1:05:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  And then he broke up with me in April and wow, I really fell through the floor. I was like, you know, my first thoughts were like, I'm gonna kill myself. And then my second thought was, I'm gonna use. And I was like, that'll be awesome. When the book comes out, they're like, well, our author can't be here, but she's Skyping in from her eighth rehab. Amy, are you there? And I just thought, you know, and also I just, I couldn't burn my life to the ground again and do it. It was just, I didn't have it in me.

• 1:05:27Rich Roll?

  So what was different that allowed you to take the contrary action this time?

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  I just was like, okay, it's a heartbreak and people survive it and it sucks and I'm gonna feel my feelings. And they are not gonna kill me and it's okay to feel like shit. And I cried and cried and cried and I lost a ton of weight. Like, I'm still haven't put all of my weight back on. Like, people were like, are you ill? Like, you know, I looked, you know, it's back to like my weight when I was anorexic. I started smoking again and I'm still not totally over it. It's like eight months and I still cry. I still dream about him and it's like really painful.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  But you had enough recovery.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  But I didn't go into, but I didn't go into like a weird sex addiction place either.

• 1:06:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  I've just, I've been celibate since. I've just been like, okay, closed for renovation. Like, you know what I mean? We're like, we're gonna sort this. Like, you know, like, all right, let's, let's heal and figure it out. I just knew it wasn't the answer.

• 1:06:27Rich Roll?

  That's huge growth. I mean, that's to, to undergo something as emotionally painful as that and not do what you've been doing your entire life. Like to, I mean, did you double down on your program? I mean, you made the phone calls. Like, what prevented you from, you know, reaching out for the thing that you've always used to?

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Cause I just knew. I just, I respect my disease too much, whatever it is. I don't even like to say disease, whatever it is, whatever it is. And I'm terrified of my epilepsy. And

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  I couldn't do that, you know, honestly, my dad was so proud, my mom was so proud. I couldn't do it to my publisher and my agent. And I just, I had put something out into the world to give people hope and I couldn't, you know, not like I'm some fucking hero, but it was like, you know, you can't write a thing of like, that gives people hope and then relapse before it comes out. I just couldn't do that to people. And it was like, what?

• 1:07:26Rich Roll?

  That's what happened to me.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Did you really?

• 1:07:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Oh, shit.

• 1:07:30Rich Roll?

  I was finishing Finding Ultra. It was 2011. I've talked about this on the podcast before. And, and I had a one day relapse. It's a long story. I won't go into it now because people, listeners have heard it before. But, I mean, it was literally five beers and I was at an AA meeting that night.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  And it was over.

• 1:07:49Rich Roll?

  And it was over, but it was devastating.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Rich Roll?

  It was devastating for a zillion reasons.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:07:55Rich Roll?

  You know, to do that. My family saw me, my wife saw me, my youngest daughter saw me. And, you know, I was a guy who at that time had How many years? Thirteen years?

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:08:07Rich Roll?

  Eleven years, something like, like

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:08:08Rich Roll?

  The person who, like, I got it together.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:08:11Rich Roll?

  I'm the one who people call.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:08:14Rich Roll?

  I'm the guy who's sponsoring all these people.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  I think that's very dangerous, and I actually just wrote a piece, I wrote a piece about that.

• 1:08:18Rich Roll?

  Super dangerous.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Because then, you don't feel like you can be honest when you're struggling, and you don't feel, and so many people don't come back. Like, you went back.

• 1:08:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I went right back, and thank God.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  But so many people don't. They blow their brains out.

• 1:08:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, my sobriety is better than ever as a result of that.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:08:33Rich Roll?

  In retrospect, it was, it was what I needed. I needed, I needed my, I needed some humility, and I needed my ego to be removed from the equation. But it was, it was devastating, and to be on the precipice of releasing a book that was about my addiction story. And I couldn't, I mean, you know, look, I made all those phone calls you don't want to make, that night, crying, you know, with my friends, and, you know, called, called people you know, and those are very hard phone calls to make.

• 1:09:04Rich Roll?

  And so everybody in my recovery community, like, knew what was going on, and I, and I own it, and every time I speak, I tell the story.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:09:12Rich Roll?

  But I never, I didn't, I didn't own it publicly for a couple of years.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Did you feel weird about that?

• 1:09:18Rich Roll?

  Deeply ashamed of it, yeah. And finally, it was untenable. Like, I was like, I need, I had to do, like, I did a whole podcast episode where I was like, this is what happened. Like, I just couldn't live with, I couldn't live with that dissonance anymore.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:09:31Rich Roll?

  Because it was eating me alive.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:33Rich Roll?

  Shame was so profound, even though I was owning it in a different, in a, in a private forum, I needed to, like, own it publicly.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:09:41Rich Roll?

  It was such a relief, and, you know, my sobriety is, you know, it's, it's great now, like, everything is amazing, but I know what that feels like. Like, I, I made the wrong choice. You made the right choice.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just was like, I can't. I just was like, I will not. I will not. And I just, I have done that experiment so many times. And, what is it gonna, numb it? It's not gonna bring him back? Is it gonna fix it? It's just gonna fuck everything up. And I just thought, no way, man. Not doing it again. But feeling feelings like normal people, fuck that shit. Like it is, I slept a lot. I mean, I cried so much. My neighbors heard me just wailing. Like a little girl.

• 1:10:23Rich Roll?

  But rather than trying to avoid those feelings, just allowing yourself to feel them.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I started smoking. I started smoking again. I was like, you know, now I'm vaping and it's like eight months. I'm like, oh, you know, but I was like, you know, I, I, I, but I let myself have it. I was like, you know what? If I'm gonna pick up something, let's pick that up. I'll let myself have it. I wanted to just take the edge off and it doesn't really do that. But I didn't sexually act out. I didn't, you know, try and destroy him. I just, and I, you know, and, and I feel stronger through it. It's like, you know, feelings come in waves and I survived that. And usually, you know, like my divorce really took me out and, and other relationships ending have really taken me out.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  That's been a big, big thing for me is men and that, you know, and relapsing over men. And so the fact that I survived that and stayed sober, you know?

• 1:11:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's huge.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  I was like, yeah, so that gave, I have new sort of like I, a resiliency to me and I knew belief and I know I can get through it now. Like if I got through that and kind of get through anything.

• 1:11:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:36Rich Roll?

  Well, let's talk about the, the sex stuff.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:11:39Rich Roll?

  Because I think it also, it's important, you know, for people.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Can we light some incense?

• 1:11:45Rich Roll?

  We can. I have it right there. For people to understand, when, you know, when you remove, like, the drugs and the alcohol are the solution, not the problem.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:11:57Rich Roll?

  Right? And when you remove them, it's not all, it's not a rose garden.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Oh, no way.

• 1:12:02Rich Roll?

  You're a raw nerve. You have all these crazy emotions that are percolating up. You're so uncomfortable in your own skin. You don't have any tools for how to manage that. And so what happens traditionally, in many cases, most cases probably, is you, you know, whether it's conscious or unconscious, you start finding other ways to, to get out of how you feel. So whether that's shopping or gambling or watching television.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Why couldn't it have been exercise? Why? Why? Why, God, why?

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  Training for Ultraman. You know, or, or sex, right? And so, um, you know, sex becomes a big thing for you and is a huge part of this book. And it's painful to read about all these things, but it's so powerful because I think this is something that, you know, I think a lot of people go through, even people that aren't, you know, quote unquote addicts or alcoholics in sobriety, like people who seek out, um, sex to, you know, fill that hole.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:13:05Rich Roll?

  And the places that, you know, that takes you as a woman.

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  They cut, they cut some of the really, they cut a lot of stuff. I mean, I was much sluttier than that book. They cut a lot of the stories for narrative arc. It's narrative arc so important, which is like, you know, and it's like, you know, it's very hard to do a really good narrative arc when you've had 9,000 times that you've eaten sand too.

• 1:13:28Rich Roll?

  Right. Like, how many times can you tell a story?

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  You know, and then she got it together and it's like, and then she relapsed, then she got it together and then she, that's what it'd be like if it was linear.

• 1:13:36Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, they cut some of the stuff, not because it was like shocking, because there's obviously plenty of shocking stuff in there, but, um, they cut some of the stuff just for, I guess they felt it was repetitive.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  It was, that was the most painful thing I've ever been through. Uh, there are people now that don't think sex addiction exists. I have no idea whether that's true or not. All I know, to me, it was absolutely a manifestation of my alcoholism.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  It, it wasn't a separate thing. I was very clear on that.

• 1:14:14Rich Roll?

  So, explain that. In other, in other words, what you're saying is not, you're not drinking and using, but you still have this compulsion.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  Took compulsion to get out.

• 1:14:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  I got, I gotta get out. I gotta get out. I gotta numb my feelings. I gotta get out of myself, you know? And so I needed to stay clean because I was in Sober Living and I was doing my career, I was sweeping streets, so doing my community labor on the chain gang.

• 1:14:37Rich Roll?

  And your roommate was like, I'm not sure what part of, your roommate was like a high-paid escort, right?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  No, she wasn't. Which one? I don't know, you had a bunch. But there was at one point, right? You know? Oh, yeah. Oh, in rehab, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was in rehab. That was way before. Okay. That was in sober living, yeah.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  And there, so I had to stay sober. It was the last, it was really, literally, the last, like, house on the block. There was nowhere to go, and my parents were over it. And we talked about, they were just like, we're done. My dad was like, I'm done. So done. Like, I'm so exhausted with the roller coaster and you financially and emotionally draining me. I'm so over it. Like, call me with good news or don't call me. Like, I was like, ooh. So it was like, the rug had been pulled. I was on medical disability. My ex, he was like, you know, my ex-husband had left me. It was like, you know, fuck you, no money, like, you know, I was like, it was me and I had to keep it together. But I was in so much pain and I was so scared and so confused about how to navigate in the world because I'd never done it before. Like I said, I'd always been like, I'm broken and everyone will

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  take care of me. And people did. So all of a sudden, now I'm in my 40s and no one's taking care of me. It's not so cute anymore. Yeah, it's like really an outgrown behavior, you know, and it's, but I'm still using, and it's like, it's over. No one's, you know, no one's gonna pay anything. No one's gonna take care of me. I'm in my 40s and it's like, it's embarrassing. And I just, I don't even know exactly how it started, but Tinder was the death of me. I mean, that's like, you know, as I say in the book, it's like eBay for cock. It's like too easy. You got good pictures, like you're good looking, you know? And it's specifically designed to be addictive, right? Oh, I know. It's like a, yeah. I've never been on it. Oh, it's brutal. Oh, yeah. I haven't been on it for years. It's like, I won't touch that.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  I'm like scared of it. Yeah, because it's like, it's like, it's like a slot machine. It's like, ding, match. And it's like, brring. And then you just, you get this hit of dopamine and it's like, so, but...

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know how male sex addicts feel. For me, part of it was the divorce backlash. Part of it was, you know, I'd been celibate for seven years during my life. Like, I'd always had a really weird relationship with sex. I was really kind of shut down and couldn't own it. And so I was, part of it was like, I'm gonna fuck you. You know, I'm gonna own this. And I was trying to do that, like, pro, like, you know, I'm not a slut, I'm a stud, and like, you know, pro-sex thing. But, um, I wanted love. I was hoping all of those guys would be my boyfriend and call me and fall in love with me and, you know, or hold me, and they didn't. And I tried to have this, you know, attitude of like,

• 1:17:18Rich Roll?

  You set up the rules, though.

• 1:17:22Rich Roll?

  If you're going, if you're going into it with, like, you know, I'm, I'm gonna, you know, this is what it is, and, you know, with that kind of,

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  No, but I tried to change the rules, too. There was one that's not in there where I was like, hey, I don't wanna just, you know, get, you know, boned once and never called again. Like, you know, I want like a lover. Are you down? He was like, yeah, the guy's gonna say anything to get laid, come on. So, you know.

• 1:17:41Rich Roll?

  And then not calling.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. Um, and it was totally devastating. I'd never felt so much shame. And I would be driving home crying and go, I'm never doing this again. And then I'd be doing it again. And I was like, God, this is exactly like my drug addiction. It's so frightening. It was exactly the same. You know, even driving to meet someone new, you'd be like shaking with anticipation, like going to score dope. Your bo, your brain was like, you know, it was like the excitement and you knew what was coming. It was like, it was just, it was, it was really intense.

• 1:18:18Rich Roll?

  And so how did you bottom out with that?

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  I had an experience in the book that was fucking mortifying, as you know.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  And I called someone in SAA, Sex Addicts Anonymous, and for help, of course, it was a guy, which was probably the mistake, and said, you know, I just did something really, really embarrassing. And he's like, are you hurt? And I was like, well, my asshole hurts. And he's like, well, you know, yeah, he's like, but are you emot- like physically really hurt? And I said, no. And he's like, you know, this is what we do. Like, you're okay. And then he ended up like masturbating on the phone. And I was just like, fuck this shit. Fuck that program. I was like, fuck this program, fuck those programs. You know what? I was like, I, I just didn't recognize myself anymore. And I was like,

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  done. I'm done with this. I'm done. I'd hit, I just hit a bottom that just shifted it. And you know, it's like, as my sponsor says, like, you know, you stop a behavior when what it's doing for you is, um, when what it's doing to you is worse than what it's doing for you. And that's exactly what happened. It was just, that was so mortifying. And that was really-

• 1:19:34Rich Roll?

  And then the betrayal.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that also, yeah, I was just like, yeah, fuck, there's, I was like, there's no recovery in that program. I mean, I'm sure there is, but it was like, um, so I just, I was like, done. You know, but then I got in a sort of almost like a love addiction thing with the guy that became, you know-

• 1:19:57Rich Roll?

  Right. You can say I'm done, but you, that doesn't mean that you've healed from that.

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, well, I will never go back to that behavior. I mean, I just, also, I'm older and it's like, yeah, no. Um, if I would have gone back to it, I would have gone back to it already, I think. Um, and then I sort of like, you know, fell in love with this guy and was sort of in my like weird love addiction stuff or whatever. I mean, I don't know, that's what my problem with those programs is they pathologize everything. Why couldn't I have just fallen in love and didn't want to fuck anyone else? Like, why is it love addiction? Like, they pathologize everything. And it's like, that was my problem with those programs, besides the fact that they did not like me in those meetings.

• 1:20:42Rich Roll?

  Why? Because you're challenging them?

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, just, you know, you read the one where there's the female like SAA meeting. There's one female SAA meeting in all of Los Angeles and I went to it and they were horrified by me. I guess you're not supposed to use bone as a verb. That's not very respectful to the disease of sex addiction. Not even that, just like they didn't think I was taking it seriously or whatever. And it was like, I don't know. It's hard for me to take that seri- like as a fatal illness when you've, you know, had a needle in your neck.

• 1:21:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, I can see the argument to pathologize a behavior when it's a reaction to a wound and it's, and it's conducted in an unhealthy way. And there is something to be said about just falling in love and, and the healing aspect of that.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and having real intimacy, like having someone, having sex with someone with real intimacy. I was like, this is it.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  This is a completely different experience and it was, you know, really healing and really wonderful.

• 1:21:48Rich Roll?

  Right. And just because it ended doesn't mean that it was a failure, right? It was, I would imagine it was, it was healing and it was a growth experience.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I was an amazing partner and I never knew I could be an amazing partner. I was a really, really, even he would tell you that, like, he was like, you're the best girlfriend I've ever had. It was like, and I think that I had been a really shitty wife and maybe I was doing like a living amends and I, I maybe I over gave and I just, I really loved him and I got into a very nurturing, maternal, sort of loving wifey, you know, doing his laundry and I'd cook for him and I loved it. And then I was like, it felt really good. And that was also after, remember I had taken care of the baby. So I had, I kind of had that shift where, so I can be a good partner and now. I know that I'm a good partner and so now I can wait for someone to be a good partner.

• 1:22:37Rich Roll?

  So then how do you currently think about the relationship between unhealthy behaviors and addiction? Because as somebody who's five years sober, who's not using, who's not drinking, but now you have an understanding of kind of what your

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  Who's not having sex.

• 1:22:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, alright, what the fuck is left, right? It's like they say the road gets narrower. It's like all these things that used to be like, you know, like, I can't watch TV for 10 hours in a row anymore. Like, I can't do that, I can't do this, I can't do, you know, it's like, what is left, right? The road is narrower, so, and, and we can pathologize all of these behaviors, or we can just recognize that this is our disease sort of flaring up in a certain way, and, and understand, oh, I need to temper it there. I need to kind of look at that and maybe not do that. Or maybe I need to double down on some of this work so that I don't behave that way next time. But it doesn't have to become, you know, a mushroom cloud

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:23:33Rich Roll?

  of shame over, like, because you ate ice cream or something like that, right? So where, where is it? Because it is that like water balloon, when you squeeze it, it starts popping up in all these different places. Like, where do you feel it, like, doing that now?

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Sleeping.

• 1:23:53Rich Roll?

  You don't sleep?

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  No, I sleep all the time.

• 1:23:55Rich Roll?

  You sleep too much?

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, part of it is epilepsy meds, but I think, you know, sometimes when I'm just like, oh, I can't deal, I'll just nap, so I'm gonna start napaholic.

• 1:24:05Rich Roll?

  Part of that is self-care.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  I think so too, I feel like it's just rebooting. Like, I unplug, I'm sorry, there's nothing like a massage and a nap won't fix. Like, you just, you know, I go get a massage, you know? Not like a happy ending massage, like, just like a normal massage.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  I'm really into, I don't think I'm a workaholic. I mean, I'm still too lazy to do that, but it's like, you know, I'm really busy promoting the book. I write, I have an editing job on the side. You know, we're in a serious negotiation, like, I'm, I'm just trying to be really productive, and I guess I get my high from the fact that the book is helping people. I mean, I cry, I get messages and I just cry.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  And I just, I, and I write everyone back. And I'm just like, I'm so, I'm like, you made my day. Like, thank you. So happy that it helped you. So thrilled that you feel like it came along at the right time, or that I, I'm the voice that you can hear and nothing else. And like, they're like, you're so honest and raw, you know, you're funny. And so it's like, you know, even my dad said, he just said, I have no more anger or sadness about what you went through, because I really feel very strongly that you went through all of that. So you could write this book, so you could help people, and there is no higher calling. And so, and I was just like, so, yeah.

• 1:25:30Rich Roll?

  It is, it is. There is no higher calling. Like, it's an amazing thing.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  I mean, getting those messages, I get them every day, I'm gonna cry. It's so fucking moving. It's from, and it's like,

• 1:25:39Rich Roll?

  It's a, it's a physical manifestation of the, your primary purpose.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like, also, yeah. But also, I mean, think about the balls it takes for these people to just reach out to someone they don't know. And some of them freak out. I write back and they're like, oh my God, you wrote me back? Like, I'm like, I'm just a junkie who wrote a book, who has a cat. Like, it's...

• 1:26:00Rich Roll?

  Well, you've given them permission to be open and honest.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, they tell me their stuff.

• 1:26:04Rich Roll?

  And so, what's, what's happened to me, and what it sounds like is happening to you, is you get these amazing letters where people are opening their hearts, and they're telling you things that they've never told anyone. You know, and that's a very special, precious thing. Because that permission is the first step that that person perhaps is taking towards their own healing.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I totally agree with you.

• 1:26:28Rich Roll?

  But the book for you, it didn't come out of the blue. I mean, you made a decision years ago that you were gonna start writing about this subject, yourself, and about addiction in general. So what, what was that decision about? Like, when did you first decide, like, I'm gonna start expressing myself about this path that I'm on?

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  Well, I was chronicling some of this stuff years ago. I always wanted to write a book.

• 1:26:51Rich Roll?

  Back with the collages.

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Right back, yeah. Even back with the tweaking collages, on the fourth day up. Oh my God.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  And then also through the cocaine, shooting the cocaine and the depression and the suicide attempts and even some of the earlier sobriety, I have, I have, you know, three half-finished novels on my, on my computer and old hard drives and I always wanted to do it, but like I said, there was never a place where I felt like I had landed, that there was really a story to tell. It was just like, "And she just kept relapsing," you know? And so it was when I got arrested, to the community labor, well, see, okay.

• 1:27:33Rich Roll?

  And also, you can't write a book unless you can at least put together a couple of years of sobriety.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Well, I agree. What are you talking about? Yeah, what are you talking about? I mean, I was three years sober when that book, when I finished that book, but I'm almost five years sober now. That's how long it takes to, you know?

• 1:27:49Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Like copyright, legally, you know, all that stuff. I started writing for the Addiction Recovery Magazine, The Fix, in 2012, and I started chronicling all that stuff. And then also, when I got arrested, I was sentenced to a year of domestic violence class and 240 hours of community labor. So it's me and 20, you know, 40 cholos sweeping trash on the street. And of course, like you said, instead of like, a lot of the people there were like, you know, "We can be friends on Facebook, but don't mention that this is what I'm doing, that you met me here." Like, you know, like, "You met me at a premiere," or whatever. Like, you know, it's just like, whatever, you know? I chronicled it on Facebook.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  I was like, "Another day on the chain, gang! You know, look at the jewels I found sweeping the streets." And I would take pictures of stuff on the street and like what I learned that day and like whatever my experience. And people were like, "Oh, my God!" They were bummed when it ended. They were bummed when I finished.

• 1:28:50Rich Roll?

  Well, it's so great, too, because it is a perfect example of something that somebody would just be so mortified about that they'd be like, "I have to do this, but the last thing I'm gonna do is like, you know, post on Facebook."

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  I was just like, "Fuck it!" I was like, you know, you know, I would totally tell stories, I would show pictures. People were really bummed when it was over. They were like, "Get arrested again!" I was like, "Hey, guys, calm down."

• 1:29:12Rich Roll?

  They're like, binging on your like Netflix series of like, cleaning up the highway.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  It was like that, honestly, that was life changing. That was, that changed me more than anything.

• 1:29:24Rich Roll?

  Because it made you realize like, oh, people are connecting to this, like, you know.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  No, because I, when I was sweeping the streets, first of all, talk about humbling. I mean, no one talks to you. Except for like.

• 1:29:37Rich Roll?

  And you're wearing the orange thing, right?

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  No, I had like a tan Dicky shirt that said Clean Team on the back. Or if we were doing like graffiti removal, we had like yellow, like business, you know, I don't know. You know, beautification team or whatever. It was like different, you know, it was different, different areas, but no one talked to us. We were criminals, except for like drunk homeless people who'd be like, stay out of the pen, you know, or whatever. It's like, you know, and a couple of people would be like, I love the environmentalism you're doing. Like, how do I become part of this? You know, I was like, just get arrested. It's so easy. It's not that hard.

• 1:30:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Pull a knife on your husband.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  It was really humbling. And it was really exhausting and I learned about hard work and labor and finishing something that you start. And the consequence, taking the full consequences of your actions.

• 1:30:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, in the book, it's, you vividly describe like just when you would come home after the day, it just collapsed.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  It was so exhausting. I mean, you would be fine because of the kind of like exercise you did.

• 1:30:36Rich Roll?

  Different kind of thing.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was gnarly and it changed me in a, I've never been the same. And I think losing everything changed me too. I'd never been happy, never been enough. And then all of a sudden, just being sober and, you know, not having to be on the chain gang. And I mean, you know, even if the last relationship, we were living in Inglewood and then we were living in a pool house. And we were so poor together, but I was in love and it was enough. Where in before I was married and living in this condo and driving an $8,000 car and I was miserable. And so it's like, having money would be terrific and it's nice, but it doesn't make you happy.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  I forget even what your question was now. It's like.

• 1:31:21Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, it was just about what you got out of that experience. I mean, behind that was the beginning of starting to share all of this stuff publicly.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, I'm all that's, I mean, people are like, you have no filter. It's like, okay. I mean, I don't, that's my blessing and my curse.

• 1:31:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  You know? But what was like, I was so, what was I gonna pretend I was doing? I mean, there's that joke. I mean, it's in the book where this other girl was like, I found her Twitter. She was sort of like a famous chick on, she had a reality show and she goes, just finished hiking with underprivileged children for eight hours. I was like, really? Is that what you call sweeping syringes and bum shit for eight hours on fucking Hollywood?

• 1:32:02Rich Roll?

  Did you reply to her and say that?

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:32:04Rich Roll?

  Or you didn't out her?

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  But I was like, wow. And I just thought.

• 1:32:07Rich Roll?

  She's ashamed. I mean, that's the normal.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Well, everyone was. No one else owned it. No one else owned it.

• 1:32:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, see, that's the thing. Like, you're, you're angry at her, but that was, that's what.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  I'm not angry. I think it's funny. I just think it's like.

• 1:32:16Rich Roll?

  Right. But she's, most people would not do what you did.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  You know, but it's like, she's, you know, I mean, she was also notorious for being notorious. So it's like, why just not own it? I mean, but everyone else was like, there was, you know, a publicist and, you know, a teacher and a lawyer. I can understand them not being like, you know.

• 1:32:32Rich Roll?

  Right, because they got jobs.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, you know, where people are gonna disrespect them for it, where I, I'm at the bottom, so there's nothing to disrespect.

• 1:32:42Rich Roll?

  But you began writing and, I mean, you, yeah, you write for The Fix, but like, your stuff is all over the place. I mean, Salon, Huffington Post. Where else have you written?

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  Vice.

• 1:32:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Vice, that's right.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Sorry, writing for Tonic.

• 1:32:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool. So there's, and there's a lot, I mean, I'll link in the show notes. I'll put links up to all, to all your stuff, but you got like tons and dozens and dozens of articles out there.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  I mean, people also repost stuff that I don't even know, you know, but my, my main thing has like been The Fix. You know, I'm like their girl.

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  And The Fix is still going strong?

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they let me use pieces that I, from, you know, they let me use pieces of articles.

• 1:33:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, I know, and they, they publish excerpts of the book there as well.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, and so did Tonic.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  Is Anna David still part of The Fix?

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:33:24Rich Roll?

  She, I didn't think so.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 1:33:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  But she was my first editor, um, in 2012. She asked me to become, she was like, write a piece about sex and dating and sobriety. And I was like, she's like, I think you'd be great. And I was like, why? Because I'm. A fuck bunny, because I was slutty, you know, I had like a reputation, or because I was funny, and I wrote a piece and people flipped out and loved it, and so that's how I started writing. So I'll always be grateful for her, for her bringing me in in that entree, even though she's not there anymore.

• 1:33:52Rich Roll?

  I think the sex and the relationship stuff is, is super powerful, and your willingness to be so honest about that, I think, I mean, if I was, like, if I was giving you advice about the next book, or I would go deep into that. Because whether somebody, you know, is in sobriety, or struggles with drugs and alcohol, like, all of that aside, like, the relationship piece is super powerful, and people that don't have substance problems really struggle in that regard.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:34:19Rich Roll?

  And the fact that you're willing to, like, go all the way to the wall,

• 1:34:24Rich Roll?

  you know, with what you've undergone, what you've, what you've, you know, experienced, with respect to that, I think can help a lot of people.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I write on my Psychology Today blog, and I also write, I wrote some pieces for your Tango about relationship stuff, and how to fight without knives, you know?

• 1:34:41Rich Roll?

  Well, you know how to fight with knives, but...

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  You know, how to be loving and respectful and all that kind of stuff, and it's like, I mean,

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  there is always that fear of being super vulnerable with all that stuff, that like, who's gonna want to date me, or marry me? Like...

• 1:35:02Rich Roll?

  That's the fear that's beneath it still.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:35:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  Like, because, like, who, you know, it's like, you know, I mean, there's a lot of deal breakers, there's gotta be someone who's really kinda, you know, accepting. It's like, so I was, you know, I was...

• 1:35:18Rich Roll?

  But there's a warrior strength, though. There's a certain courage that it, that's required to like, own it the way you do, and I think that that, that puts you in a different ca... you know, it's like...

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  I never think of it as that, I just, you know, it's like, everyone's like, you're so brave, it's like, honestly, that's just who I am, I'm just like, brrr. I just say it. Like, maybe it's the epilepsy, maybe it just blew out that filter, you know what I mean? It is the frontal lobe, like, where that thing, like, maybe I should say that, maybe I shouldn't. That part is like, broken, that's where the, that's the seizure center, like, I don't even...

• 1:35:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you were like that before you had epilepsy.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  Good call. Good call.

• 1:35:56Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So tell me about the, can you talk about the series?

• 1:36:00Speaker 01

  I can't really. It's just, there's interest, it's negotiations, it's very exciting. It would be wonderful. I would, it would be a dream.

• 1:36:09Rich Roll?

  That's incredible.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  It would be a dream.

• 1:36:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  And I would love to have the, the opportunity to accurately portray addiction and addicts in all of our, you know, rock star needy, multi-layered glory and accurately portray rehabs and accurately portray meetings. And all of it, let people in. It's like, that's the other thing. It's like, you know, talk about the anonymity. It's like, I'm sorry, have you seen Judd Apatow's show Love? She's in meetings. It's like, there's people, there's, AA meetings are in movies now. It's on TV. We had Celebrity Rehab. We had Sober House. It's like,

• 1:36:53Rich Roll?

  Intervention.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Intervention. If you say you're in recovery, what do people think? You're in recovery from cancer? No, I mean, they know. You know, and it's like, they know.

• 1:37:02Rich Roll?

  So if we are talking about it, let's try to talk about it honestly and portray it as accurately as possible.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think that if, like you said, some people are like, well, your book, you know, you take shots at AA. I think it's bad for newcomers. I can't even tell you how many people have said, you've inspired me to get sober. And I say, hey, go to a meeting. Get a sponsor. Work the steps. You know, I don't, just because I don't think the program is perf- or the fellowship is perfect, or the program is perfect. I mean, I think the program is perfect, but it's like, I mean, the God stuff still freaks me out a little bit. I'm a little bit weirded out by that, but I know plenty of atheists who have stayed sober doing the steps. Cause like I said, it's cognitive behavioral therapy. That's exactly what someone who can mindfuck themselves and talk and is so super smart

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  and driven by their emotions, needs. I learned to show up, no matter how I feel. And that's part of maybe how I got through the breakup was like,

• 1:37:58Rich Roll?

  Of course it is.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  I kept my job. I showed up. I'd be crying, brainstorming humor for her column, but I'd be crying, but I was still there.

• 1:38:06Rich Roll?

  Showing up.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I learned how to show up finally. I never had done that before. I'd always, you know. Nope, can't do it.

• 1:38:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it taught me that. It uh, it saved my life. It's still, you know, the priority of my existence to this day. And it's weird because as much as I talk about it, I still get messages every day from people who are struggling, who say, you know, are you still in AA? Are you like, what do you do? What should I do?

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  I know, right? That's really tough. I get those too.

• 1:38:33Rich Roll?

  And

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  Like, what should I do?

• 1:38:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, it's like, all, but all I can tell you is like, all I can do is share my experience.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:38:39Rich Roll?

  And my experience is that when I went to AA, my life changed. So set aside whatever preconceived ideas you have, whatever issues you have, stop questioning it and just let go. Like, raise your hand. Find somebody who looks like somebody you can talk to and like, tell them the truth.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:38:54Rich Roll?

  Like, there's no other advice for me to give, other than that.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. People are asking, asking me and I'm like, I'm not a therapist, like, you know. It's like, I mean, I have a, I have a sponsee now. I didn't, I hadn't had sponsees for a while and I was like, you know, calling my sponsor and he was like, God, I'm so sick of you talking about your ex-boyfriend in the book. Like, get some sponsees. Shut up. Get out of yourself. Oh, he's just like, oh, killing me. So, and that's the other thing. I have a male sponsor.

• 1:39:23Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  People get really weirded out by that. I know, I'm the rebel of AA. People get really weirded out by that. And it's like, you know, I mean, if you're gonna do, I just,

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  he had what I wanted. He had a very long marriage, a successful marriage. And I heard him speak about the traditions as applied to relationships and I cried through the entire share. And he, he also is a very compassionate person and he is a hospice nurse. And I wanted to learn how to be in a relationship and I wanted to learn how to be really loving and compassionate.

• 1:40:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, you're, you're supposed to find somebody that you feel comfortable with, who has what you want and who, you know, has enough experience in the areas that you feel like you want to develop.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, the whole thing of like same-sex sponsorship. What if you're gay? You can crush out on your sponsor.

• 1:40:18Rich Roll?

  Well, it's not in the big book.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  I know, but that's the reason to, I'm not a big book thumper, but that's the reason to read the big book is to know, so you know, like, what's bullshit? What's just like taught, like stuff that's being talked about in the rooms? It's not the real deal. Like, not, you know, dating in the first year. That's not in the book either. All that stuff, you know, I just feel like, again, with all the rules, like, just do how it works, do it so that it works for you. But I agree with you. It's like,

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  I think people have these weird ideas about AA and that's sort of why, I mean, yeah, who's, who's in it newly in AA? And it's like, I love it. You know what I mean? I was super angry and I was like, that was a really strict meeting. Come on, it's a 90 minute book study and I'm newly sober. I wanted to.

• 1:41:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're not there because you wanna be there.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, so I'm just being honest, you know, about it all.

• 1:41:11Rich Roll?

  But the honesty is what, is what saves your ass.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Did you cry?

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  In my first meeting?

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  No, did you cry in my book?

• 1:41:17Rich Roll?

  Did I cry in your book?

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  Did you cry?

• 1:41:19Rich Roll?

  No, I laughed. I didn't cry.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  You did, you did laugh?

• 1:41:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  What made you laugh?

• 1:41:23Rich Roll?

  I think just, I'm trying to remember what episode specifically.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  Episode?

• 1:41:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:28Speaker 01

  Yes, manifest that series.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  The, you know, the picking up trash stuff is pretty funny, you know?

• 1:41:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's good.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  It was really fun. I had to.

• 1:41:41Rich Roll?

  It's funny.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  Oh, I had to find the humor.

• 1:41:43Rich Roll?

  It's funny in a heartbreaking way. It is that like, you know, comedy is tragedy.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Well, always.

• 1:41:47Rich Roll?

  Tragic, you're seeing this person just like, continue to stumble downward, you know?

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  And then you feel guilty about laughing, but.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Really? Did you feel guilty?

• 1:41:55Rich Roll?

  Well, just because it's, it's like, you wanna just, you know, it's, I feel like, she's, I just wanna hug her.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:42:02Rich Roll?

  And tell her it's gonna be okay.

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, some people have said like, I, sorry, but I like really enjoyed reading about your pain. And I'm like, that is okay.

• 1:42:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  You know, that's total, I mean, I wrote it, like you said, with some levity because otherwise, I mean, I had to find the levity when I was going through it. I really, I had that moment where I was just like, okay, like, we have to do this or we're gonna go to jail. So, what's the gift here?

• 1:42:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  This can be the best thing that happened to you, or the worst thing that happened to you, and it's your decision.

• 1:42:34Rich Roll?

  It's your divine moment.

• 1:42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's like, okay, like, it's your, you know, you get to shift your attitude. It was really, it was like, almost like, it was really an epiphany in my life.

• 1:42:44Rich Roll?

  Do you, are you, are you somebody who looks back on it now with gratitude?

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 1:42:49Rich Roll?

  This is what had to happen for me to live.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I had to lose everything so I could be grateful and make it and, and build it back on my own. So I could have self-esteem. I think that when you're privileged and you're given everything.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  It cripples you in a weird way. I just, I never did anything because I didn't have to and then I felt like I couldn't and then I didn't. And it was this horrible cycle. And so.

• 1:43:18Rich Roll?

  You had to be dismantled.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:20Rich Roll?

  Dragged through the mud for years in order to wake up and.

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  And it's like, and I mean, sweeping the streets. I mean, created a sense of unity and compassion for other people I'd never had before. It was like, you know, at growing up in Beverly Hills and all this stuff was like, well, that'll never happen to me. And it's like, I'm here to tell you, like, or getting arrested for felony, like all the thing or shooting up in your neck, all of it. Psych wards, like you, anything can happen to you. You are not immune. So if there's someone else and they've gone through that, try, have compassion. That could be you. I'm here to tell you that absolutely could be you.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  Under the right or wrong circumstances with the right mix and wrong, it just.

• 1:44:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  I mean, that all those things that I, and I was just like, wow, I'm not immune. And it really humbled me and connected me with other people. In a way that I hadn't been before.

• 1:44:18Rich Roll?

  Well, the rooms are full of people who say, you know, I'd never thought I would do this, or I'd never thought I would do that. And then here's what happened.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Right, of course, crossing that line, that line, that line.

• 1:44:28Rich Roll?

  But back to that point you, you made a couple of minutes ago about, uh, about like, you know, you do you, like, you know, whatever works for you to get sober, like do it your way. I, I'm with you to a certain extent on that. But I think it's also important for people to understand, like, part of getting sober is setting aside your idea of what you think you need to do. You know, it's like, you need to have your, you need to go in humble.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  Oh, I agree with you.

• 1:44:53Rich Roll?

  Set aside your idea of what you think. It's like, your best thing got you here, buddy. You know what I mean?

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  Oh, I totally agree with you.

• 1:44:59Rich Roll?

  You know, you're not, you're not here because you ain't got no problems.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:02Rich Roll?

  So you need to like, listen.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:45:05Rich Roll?

  And be willing to.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  Do the work.

• 1:45:07Rich Roll?

  Take direction and do something a little bit different than what you've been doing.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  Oh, I totally agree with you. I meant sort of like the God stuff, take the God stuff or throw, you know, but like, I have sponsors. I mean, I'm from a lineage that's a lot of step work, a lot of step work. It's a lot of writing. It's a lot of going to meetings, you know, and, I. I'm not the harshest sponsor in the world and but I'm not the easiest either. It's a lot of work, you know, and it's like I'll cut, I've cut people loose. I'm not, I don't have time for it. I don't have time for it. Like if you don't want, I can't care about your sobriety more than you care about it. Like you gotta want, you gotta wanna do it.

• 1:45:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  You gotta do the work.

• 1:45:45Rich Roll?

  It's for people that want it.

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's like, get your hand up, do the things that are uncomfortable. That's how you change. Oh, you're shy? You don't feel like sharing? I don't give a shit. Like, you know, like that kind of stuff. Like, get a commitment and like, I mean, I got, it's so funny. I was, I've been, I've been in a little bit of a depression and you still, I mean, just because you get sober doesn't mean life stops. Like, still, you know, I'm lonely, you know, I'm like, I mean, the book has changed, you know, like, it's changed my life and it hasn't changed my life. You know what I mean? You think it's gonna be, Mishka gets so mad, I mean, we fight all the time. I like called him to complain and he handed me my ass in a Facebook message and he knew I was mad

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  because I wouldn't, I didn't really, I was like, okay, and then

• 1:46:32Rich Roll?

  Basically saying, like, get over yourself.

• 1:46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like, wake up. Like, I didn't get this opportunity and I didn't get that opportunity and like, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, this is your first book and like, you're, like, basically that I was ungrateful and like, just, you know, move on to the next thing and be grateful for the, you know, I'm complaining about opportunities he didn't have and I'm like, you know, and his, you know, his Kindle single sold really, really well and it was like, he just really was harsh with me and I was so pissed and I didn't make fun of his body hair for like weeks.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  Or tell him that he was hot or anything like that. And so he knew I was mad. And then finally I made a comment on something, you know, I'd usually give him like, when he has that habit trail and I'd be like, what are you, a 13-year-old girl? Like, a lot of, like, with a mustache? You know, whatever. And then finally, he, I said something, goes, oh, good, you're not mad at me anymore. And I go, how did you know I was mad? He's like, because you didn't give me any shit. You know?

• 1:47:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  And he, um, he told me to send the book to Doug Stanhope, who fucking loved it.

• 1:47:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm not surprised. I mean, Doug, Doug, well Doug loves Mishka, you know?

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:42Rich Roll?

  And, you know, and it's, it's, it's an odd thing, you know? I, I just listened to Doug on Joe Rogan's podcast the other day. I was like, that guy's so out of control, you know?

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  But he was just like-

• 1:47:51Rich Roll?

  But the fact that he like, he loves you, he loves Mishka, he likes having these like sober success stories around him, which is super interesting. I don't know what that's about.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  Well-

• 1:48:02Rich Roll?

  Maybe one day he's gonna get sober.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  Well, his mom was an AA and it was like, he, Mishka was like, send Doug Stanhope the book. And I was just like, God, he's like, he's like, really likes drinking. Like, I don't think he's gonna like this book, like, really? Like, you know, and I sent him the book, fucking loved it. He tweeted about it, he was like, 10 pages in, I knew I'd be here all night, buy it now! And he put the Amazon link, I was like, God, I love you. And he was just like, I loved your book.

• 1:48:25Rich Roll?

  Because it's honest. Like, he, he appreciates like the unapologetic, like-

• 1:48:30Speaker 01

  In your face.

• 1:48:31Rich Roll?

  In your face, honesty, like, this is what it is, you know what I mean? Cause that's, that's what he's all about.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:36Rich Roll?

  In a very different way.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:37Rich Roll?

  But like, he, he identifies with that aspect of-

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  And he said, he said, you know, I loved your book, I blocked out when you became the needy, country girlfriend and you got sober, but the rest of it I loved. And I was just like, yeah, he loves all the just like gross, like just me in the psych wards and the boning stories and the just trash and the needles. And it's funny, when you go on Amazon, like, one of the books, it's like, people who also looked at the book, it's like his book, you know? He's been so nice, we've emailed and, um, I'm, you know, he's like the nicest guy.

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know him, but from what I understand from Mishka-

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:12Rich Roll?

  He's very, he's a very loyal person.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Really, really, really sweet. And I mean, you know, he wants me to come on his podcast, it's like, but, you know, I'm told Mishka, I'm like, alright, you and I are taking a road trip to Bisbee, Arizona.

• 1:49:23Rich Roll?

  Are you gonna actually go to Bisbee? That would scare me.

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  What? What was scary? Mishka and I in the car?

• 1:49:28Rich Roll?

  No, not you guys. No, like me, like I, like the idea of going to, like, I just like being in this compound in the middle of nowhere. That's like party central. Like I was like, I, I tell Mishka, I was like, I don't know how you do it, man. Like, how do you go down and hang out at Stan Hope's place in Bisbee and go on the road and be in all these dive bars and playing, you know, it's like, it would wear on me, man. It would be really difficult.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Well, that's why he wants to go with me.

• 1:49:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  He's afraid that I'll go down there with five years and come back, come back without them.

• 1:49:59Rich Roll?

  You don't need that. Like, I would.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  But I mean, I did, you know, I did comedy and I was around booze and drugs and everyone was high and drinking and doing, you know, it's like.

• 1:50:09Rich Roll?

  But just like the day and like if you're like with Mishka is just touring and he's in those places like every night.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, it's just, to me, it's just like, it's not like, oh, this looks good. It's like, it almost looks bad, but it's like, it's, I mean, drunk people are annoying when you're sober. That's what you realize. You're just like, uh, I mean, I was super irritating when I was, when I was drunk. I, I was, you know, I thought I was terrific and funny and like, and everyone was just like, oh, what an asshole. It's like, it was just, it was, for me, it was that relief, you know? I just didn't care what anyone thought. I care so much, even though you're like, oh, you're so brave. It's like, I care so much what people think. I pretend not to and I try not to.

• 1:50:49Rich Roll?

  Of course, you're a sensitive alcoholic.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  You know, but it's like, you know, my dad's like, don't ever read the comments. Don't ever read the reviews. Like, one chick left a review. I mean, most of my reviews have been amazing. I don't know if you've looked on Amazon.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  I have, yeah.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, like people are loving it. I'm like, whoa. But it's like, you can't, you gotta stay in the middle because, you know, it's like, if you let that get you high.

• 1:51:09Rich Roll?

  If you believe all the super nice ones, then you gotta believe the terrible ones.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  Then when someone wrote like, you know, oh, what a wasted life. I don't know why she even wrote this book, you know, one star. And my dad, my dad looked and she'd given a one star to every book she'd ever read. Okay. So my dad wrote, well, considering that you gave one star to every book, maybe reading's not your thing.

• 1:51:35Rich Roll?

  That's a great response.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  I was like, he's like, I got your back Ames. I was like, God, I love my dad. I love my dad. It was like, it's true. She gave him one star to every book. It's like, oh, she's just a hater.

• 1:51:45Rich Roll?

  She's a malcontent.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  She's just a hater.

• 1:51:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:51:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God. You know, I got some classic negative reviews on my book. Like, one of them I shared, I can't remember, like, the guy compared me to George Bush.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  Oh, what?

• 1:51:58Rich Roll?

  It was like, it was the strangest, like...

• 1:52:00Speaker 01

  How so?

• 1:52:02Rich Roll?

  Well, I think part of it was in a similar way to you, like, I had a fairly privileged background.

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:12Rich Roll?

  And I'm honest about that in the book. Like, we were middle class, but then my dad got a really good job and we kind of moved up and I went to private high school.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  I think people have less, they have less compassion for us.

• 1:52:22Rich Roll?

  Yes, you're not as empathetic of a protagonist.

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Like Joseph Nowes, that horrible, horrible childhood.

• 1:52:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's easier to like be, you know, to champion them.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  What's her problem? She had everything.

• 1:52:33Rich Roll?

  Right, and then you squander it, right? And so there's, it's not a sympathetic situation. So it was, it was a response to that, you know, really.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:52:39Rich Roll?

  I get it, but like, I can't change how I grew up. I'm just trying to be honest about what happened.

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I definitely, people have sort of gotten that too. And it's like, you know, I told you I had coffee with Joseph Nowes of Straight Pepper Diet. And one person had compared, they're like, if you want to read a really good rehab, addiction memoir, read Straight Pepper Diet. I was like, all right, Joseph, I'll have coffee with you and I won't hold that comment against you that someone said your book is better than mine. And we went and we swapped books and he just said, don't read, don't read the reviews because they said, he said, they're, they're commenting like it's fiction, but it's your life.

• 1:53:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so it's so personal because they're basically taking, they're taking your inventory. They're commenting on what they think about who you are as a person.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:53:22Rich Roll?

  And it's painful.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Gnarly, yeah. It's super gnarly.

• 1:53:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28Rich Roll?

  So, we gotta wrap this up, but I don't want to end this without asking you.

• 1:53:36Rich Roll?

  To talk a little bit about, you know, when I have people on that are in recovery, like, I always want to hear what they have to say to somebody who might be listening, who is struggling, whether it's with relationships, sex, or substances, or some other behavior that is causing them pain. As somebody who's been there and found their way out, like, how do you speak to that person?

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  I would say, first of all, be gentle with yourself, you know?

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  Drop the shame, because that will just continue the use. Like, you're doing the best you can with the tools that you have. I would say to be honest with other people and get help, and go get a therapist, or go to AA, or go to SLA, or whatever, get into a support group, because it's so important, you know, when we're in a behavior that's, that feels pathological, we isolate, and that just makes it so much worse. And for me, a huge part of the healing has been the fellowship, and my friends, and feeling connected, and reaching out. I would say, don't give up, no matter how many times you slip. Like, if you're alive,

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  you've still got a chance. You can get through this, that you're not a bad person, even if you've done bad things.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  I feel like I need, you're waiting, you're looking at me with like, some, like, I need some, I'm looking at the Buddha, like, some big, big wisdom.

• 1:55:06Rich Roll?

  I wasn't waiting for it, you just looked like you had something more to say. I mean, I think that's amazing advice. I think the hardest part for people is that first step, like, well, how do I reach out? Or like, what exactly is, what is the thing that I actually need to do first?

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  And the other thing is, don't wait till you feel like you're ready. You'll wait forever. Like, if I waited till I was ready to write a book, or if I, like, I've been waiting to feel like I'm ready and want to go to the gym, and that's been a year and a half, I know, don't judge me. But it's like, you know, you, you take action, and that changes the feeling.

• 1:55:43Rich Roll?

  Mood follows action.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  That took me forever to figure out. And there's a line in the book, you know, that my dad told me, and it took me 20 years to figure it out. He said, he said, stability... Doesn't create discipline. Discipline creates stability. I was waiting to feel okay before I could do these things. But it was doing these things that made me feel okay. So I would say, you know, tell your feelings to shut the fuck up, your head to shut the fuck up, and you take the action and it will change things, you know? And it's like, you can get better. If I can get sober, anyone can get sober, sorry. Like, come on. That story is gnarly.

• 1:56:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, and one of the things you've written a lot about is, is the importance of structure in your life.

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yeah. Well, now, I mean, I work from home. I, you know, I, I, I work from home. I have a three-day-a-week editing job. I, you know, work for the, and it's hard. It's really hard. I have to force myself, you know, to like, get out and do things like.

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  I wanted to, I was thinking about also what, you know, it's like. I guess the other thing too, it's like, you, you're not, you can change. You can change. I really thought forever I was broken and I was stuck with that person who I was. And it's like, I, I'm not that person today. I'm a completely different person. And it's like, I never thought that I could be the person who shows up and is inspiring to people and, you know, sweeps the floor, not the streets, but you know what I mean? Like, it's.

• 1:57:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and when you're in that cycle and you're surrounded by people who are telling you you're a piece of shit and you're never gonna change.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, yeah.

• 1:57:37Rich Roll?

  You believe that you're never gonna change.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:57:38Rich Roll?

  And you can never see your way out of it.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, fuck what people tell you, you know, you can do it. And also, the other thing too, is like, you know, if you have an urge to use or drink or whatever, or text that guy that's bad for you or whatever, it's like, give yourself 20 minutes. Take a bath, call someone, watch an episode of Ozark, jack off, whatever it is. Like, do something and buy yourself 20 minutes. Call someone, take a drive, take a walk. The, because the urge passes whether you pick up or not. That's really, it took me a long time to figure that out. And it's like, but if you don't ever sort of wade through that feeling, you don't realize that you can get through it. It feels overwhelming and then the urge comes to you like, I gotta do it, I gotta do it. You know?

• 1:58:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you feel like you're gonna die.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  If you don't do it.

• 1:58:26Rich Roll?

  Indulge that impulse and you don't understand that it's so true.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:31Rich Roll?

  Like, it will pass.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and if you could just get through that and realize and go, oh.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  You realize that the feeling doesn't control you, it doesn't, it won't kill you, you don't have to obey it. And that's where that freedom comes from. You know, you can, you're like, oh, I can change. And it's slow, it's a slow process, as you know.

• 1:58:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  Takes a while to...

• 1:58:55Rich Roll?

  Slow bridey.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  I know, right? I hate that.

• 1:58:57Rich Roll?

  All the annoying slogans.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  But that you can rewire your brain slowly over time, you know, through action, you really can. And you can, you can be happy, you can have a good life and you don't have to be, you know, a prisoner to that crap. You know, and just also don't care what people in the room think, like if you eat it and just come back. It's not a competition, I don't like that. Everyone's got their own stuff, everyone's got their own baggage, some people have like really severe mental illness, like everyone has their own thing, you know?

• 1:59:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that keeps a lot of people away, they come in and they get, they have a weird exchange with somebody and then they're like, I'm done with that.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:59:38Rich Roll?

  And then they're dead or they can't, you know, they can't get sober.

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, you know, find another meeting or it's like, you know, I mean, I just wrote a piece about this and this doctor, Howard Wetzman, said 50% of people who

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  who relapse will never go back to AA.

• 1:59:58Rich Roll?

  That's heartbreaking.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, because either someone said something to them or because of shame. Not that they, yeah, not 50% get sober, but they will never even make a second try. And it was like, you know, I have such a big dose of like, who gives a fuck about me? Like, I was never like, I gotta be queen of the drunks, like, I was just like, I don't care, like, this is my life and I don't care what these people think and my social capital is not based on what people in AA think about me. And I was just like, you know, I'm on my own trajectory.

• 2:00:25Rich Roll?

  Well, that's how you get well, because you can't

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  Compare and despair, man.

• 2:00:29Rich Roll?

  If you're trying to save face and look good, then you're working at cross purposes.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:00:34Rich Roll?

  Getting better.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Exactly, it's like, it's not a competition.

• 2:00:38Rich Roll?

  No.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  You know.

• 2:00:40Rich Roll?

  It's good talking to you.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  You too.

• 2:00:41Rich Roll?

  That was super fun.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 2:00:42Rich Roll?

  Very cool. So, My Fair Junkie.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  My Fair Junkie.

• 2:00:46Rich Roll?

  Bookstores everywhere, soon to be

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  At Barnes and Noble.

• 2:00:49Rich Roll?

  A super amazing television show somewhere that When that happens, you can come back and talk to

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  I probably shouldn't even be talking about that.

• 2:00:55Rich Roll?

  I know, it's like, I feel bad, like, I don't want to jinx it.

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  Like, I'm gonna get called, and they're like, "Don't mention that." I was like, "Oh, sorry." Um, it's at Barnes and Noble, it's at Amazon, it's on IndieBound, it's at Kobo, it's at, you know, um,

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  you know, all those places. There's an audiobook where you can hear my really manly voice and my bad impressions.

• 2:01:16Rich Roll?

  No, it was great. Of course you're reading the book. Like, it wouldn't, you can't have, you could have had somebody else read your, read your, read this book.

• 2:01:22Speaker 01

  So I don't know, some people have to audition to read their own book, you know?

• 2:01:25Rich Roll?

  I had to kind of lobby to make it happen.

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  See?

• 2:01:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But I'm so glad that I did.

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:31Rich Roll?

  It's important when it's a memoir, I think, you know? And because you're a performer, I mean, it was

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  Ex-performer, recovering performer, recovering comic.

• 2:01:39Rich Roll?

  You're performing.

• 2:01:41Speaker 01

  I know, it never goes away. I can't kill that part. I know, even in shares.

• 2:01:44Rich Roll?

  Why should you, though?

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  Oh, god, but even in shares, I'm just like, "Oh, here we go." It's like, gotta, you know, it's like, just be honest. I mean, I've gotten much better about that. I used to just really, like, have to just like

• 2:01:54Rich Roll?

  Turn it up.

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, "I gotta have a good set," you know?

• 2:01:58Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the, yeah, but that's, that's just another layer. That's another mask, right?

• 2:02:01Speaker 01

  And now, you know, it's just like, yeah. I had the flu for two weeks, and that'll break you down. I just come into meetings, I'm like, "Ooh."

• 2:02:09Rich Roll?

  So what's, uh, what's next?

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  What's next?

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  More promotion.

• 2:02:22Speaker 01

  You know, hopefully, hopefully a series, um, just, you know, writing, writing more, connecting to people more, um.

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  Continuing to write about, I want to write, I just want to continue to write. I mean, that's kind of, my creativity kind of keeps me alive.

• 2:02:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know if that's my newest addiction, but it's like, that's what really sort of feeds me where I get in the flow and I feel connected and I started meditating again.

• 2:02:50Rich Roll?

  Good for you.

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  I know. I hadn't, I did it and I felt so good that I stopped, which is so alcoholic, right?

• 2:02:56Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, it's like, that's like relapsing when you have 30 days or a year, right?

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  It's like, I feel amazing. I'm gonna stop.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  I feel too happy. I'm gonna stop doing it. This is working and I stopped.

• 2:03:08Rich Roll?

  It's so.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  And then it's like.

• 2:03:09Rich Roll?

  Human beings are idiots.

• 2:03:10Speaker 01

  I know. It's so weird. Same thing with the gym. I was like, I feel so great. Look at my tushy. Like, and then like.

• 2:03:15Rich Roll?

  Take a break.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  That was like, yeah. And then I never go back. So it's like, I've started meditating again, so I feel more centered and it's like, you know, I'm just like, kind of just seeing what comes my way, you know?

• 2:03:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  I just, I'm happy, I'm happy the book is, I'm happy that I made my pain into something that can help people. To me, that is like, was my help.

• 2:03:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you achieved that. It's a great book. You're a great writer. I can't wait to see what you do next.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:03:39Rich Roll?

  And please continue to write. I think it is helping a lot of people and, and the book is a gift.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  Thanks very much.

• 2:03:45Rich Roll?

  So if people are listening and they are struggling, or they know someone who's struggling, or they just want to have a better understanding of this pernicious disease, or maybe you just want to be entertained.

• 2:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you just want to laugh a lot, you want to feel better about your life.

• 2:03:58Rich Roll?

  You can check it out. And if you want to know more about Amy, you can go to her website, amydresner.com and you're at amydresner all over the internet.

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  Twitter, Instagram.

• 2:04:08Rich Roll?

  Where do you, where do you live the most on social media?

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  Probably Twitter. Instagram's like too many pictures of my cat.

• 2:04:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:19Speaker 01

  Everyone's like, stop. Like, you know, this picture's the book, the cat. I like Twitter because I like to say funny things, tell funny stories, you know?

• 2:04:26Rich Roll?

  Cool. And are you doing any events or traveling or like giving talks about the book or anything like that? If people are listening, they want to come and see you?

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Hmm, nothing right now that I can talk about, no.

• 2:04:39Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Mm-mm. But you can go, you can write to me. I'll write back, you know?

• 2:04:43Rich Roll?

  She says that she replies to all emails.

• 2:04:45Speaker 01

  Oh, God, I hate you. Thanks.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  You promised.

• 2:04:52Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Good talking to you, Amy.

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:04:54Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:04:57Rich Roll?

  All right. I hope you guys enjoyed that. Please make a point of checking out Amy's book, My Fair Junkie. It is a torrid read. And hit up the episode page for this episode at richroll.com for tons of links so you can learn a little bit more about Amy and take your edification beyond the earbuds. If you would like to support my work, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. That's the one thing you can do that is very un-time consuming. It'll only take you like a second, but it actually helps me out a lot. It really aids in the show's visibility, extending reach and growing the audience, which in turn will make it easier for me to book the very best people for future shows for you guys. You can also share the show with your friends on our social media, leave a review

• 2:05:41Rich Roll?

  on Apple Podcasts, on iTunes, subscribe to my YouTube channel, youtube.com/richroll. We did not video this episode because I recorded it quite a while ago and it was in between videographers. So this one unfortunately is not on YouTube. But going forward, we are taping essentially every interview that I'm doing, which is exciting. We also have a Patreon set up. If you want to contribute financially to my work, thank you to everybody who has done that. I'm going to be doing an AMA very soon, Ask Me Anything, a live video, Ask Me Anything for my Patreon supporters. And I'll keep you posted on that on the Patreon page. How are those New Year's resolutions going regarding your food and your diet and

• 2:06:22Rich Roll?

  your plate? Have you guys checked out our meal planner yet? It is the most powerful, most cost-effective, most affordable tool that packs this amazing punch to really keep you on track, to really dial up your nutritional regimen. Thousands of custom, plant-based recipes at your fingertips. Amazing customer support, grocery lists, even grocery delivery in most US metropolitan cities. It's an incredible product. We're so proud of it.

• 2:06:53Rich Roll?

  I really think it over-delivers on every level. So to learn more about that, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, interstitial music, help with the show notes. He helps configure the website, all kinds of stuff. Shawn Patterson for help on graphics. Theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here soon. Peace, plants. Salas. [Music]