Director David Lynch Transcends

David Lynch was an artist in every sense of the word. Rest in peace to the legendary filmmaker, who passed away this month at the age of 78. Today we present a tribute to Lynch, featuring excerpts from two of his most enduring collaborators: actors Kyle MacLachlan and Laura Dern. In each conversation, they reflect on the early projects they worked on with Lynch—together in Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks, separately in Dune and Wild at Heart. They also discuss David’s original creative process, his fascination with the mysteries of life, and memories from over three decades alongside the beloved director. To close, a love letter to the movies and a piece of music by Lynch himself. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Lemonada.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:38Sam Fragoso?

  Today, a celebration of the late David Lynch. Beginning in 1977, Lynch directed 10 groundbreaking features through his career. Eraserhead, The Elephant Man, Dune, Blue Velvet, Wild at Heart, Twin Peaks, Fire Walk with Me, Lost Highway, The Straight Story, Mahal and Drive, and Inland Empire. His television work also left an indelible mark. In 1990, Twin Peaks premiered on ABC to 36 million people, a number, in fact, I had to check at least three times before recording it. In turn, the show laid the foundation for what we now

• 1:20Sam Fragoso?

  call prestige TV. Lynch was an artist in every sense of the word. He painted, wrote poetry, played music, and even authored a few books like Room to Dream and Catching the Big Fish, Meditation, Consciousness, and Creativity. He passed away earlier this month at the age of 78, less than a year after revealing his ongoing battle with emphysema. There have been many moving tributes to Lynch since he passed on January 15. Steven Spielberg had one I really liked. He cast Lynch as director John Ford in what ended up being his last on-screen performance in The Fableman's.

• 2:04Sam Fragoso?

  And he said, "Here was one of my heroes, playing one of my other heroes. It was surreal and seemed like a scene out of one of David's own movies. His films have already stood the test of time, and they always will." And I think Spielberg is right. Lynch's work always felt untethered to time and place, at least as we understand it. Whether it was through the bewildering byways of Hollywood or the Pacific Northwest, his work often played like reverberations of half-remembered dreams, an attempt to give language to what critic David Erlich called "the indescribable strangeness of our shared reality."

• 2:47Sam Fragoso?

  And yet, despite the movie sometimes feeling impenetrable, Lynch himself was a forthcoming artist in interviews. Joshua Rothman in The New Yorker wrote this week, "Lynch wasn't a secretive artist. He spoke happily and at length about his work. If he didn't explain where his ideas came from, it's probably because he couldn't. He was as mysterious to himself as to the rest of us." And yet, although he may have been mysterious, Lynch wasn't elusive. His movies struck viewers in direct, intuitive, and often uncomplicated ways. It was hard to say what his films were about or why you liked them.

• 3:30Sam Fragoso?

  What you knew mainly was that they moved you. You were as mysterious as Lynch was. You had something in common. But what? So today, we enter David's world through stories from two of his most enduring collaborators, actors Kyle MacLachlan and Laura Dern. These passages come from conversations I've had with both of them in earlier episodes of this show. And although they were taped some years apart, they follow parallel tracks, discussing their respective memories of David, the early work they created both together and separately, and how their lives were forever changed by one of the most original filmmakers this country has ever produced.

• 4:15Sam Fragoso?

  To start, here's Kyle talking about his big break on the 1984 film Dune. Enjoy.

• 4:35Sam Fragoso?

  You take your aversion to dark and difficult emotions.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:40Sam Fragoso?

  And decide, you know what I should do? Is work with David Lynch.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:47Sam Fragoso?

  On my first film. You're a little bit out of college, you're 23, 24 years old. You fly to Los Angeles for an audition.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:55Sam Fragoso?

  In what would become this $40 million film in Dune.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:59Sam Fragoso?

  But I want to hold that day that you auditioned for a second.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:03Sam Fragoso?

  You touchdown in LAX in the afternoon. You're taken to the Universal lot and you're told to wait as David Lynch finishes his late lunch of coffee and chocolate milkshakes at Bob's Big Boy across the street. It's where he went to lunch almost every day. Always a late lunch, always opting for the coffee and chocolate milkshakes.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:25Sam Fragoso?

  I would have had a heart attack by day three of that experience. As you're sitting there waiting.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:33Sam Fragoso?

  I was wondering what images in this moment first come to mind? Like, what do you remember seeing? And what do you remember feeling in that moment?

• 5:43Speaker 02

  The back lot bungalows is where I had been taken. I didn't know that that's what they were, but this is where they were prepping for Dune. They were small, had a certain kind of smell because they'd been around for a long time.

• 5:58Sam Fragoso?

  What kind of smell?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  You know, it was kind of a musty, old smell. You know, you walk into a place, I mean, the carpet was new and everything, but it was an old, old construction.

• 6:07Sam Fragoso?

  Because this is an audio medium, so you need to add description.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Very good. It was a dark and stormy night.

• 6:14Sam Fragoso?

  There we go. Now we know you're a podcast.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  And I sat and I thought to myself, David's coming. And everyone was like, David's coming. I was like, I wonder what he's like. I have no idea.

• 6:26Sam Fragoso?

  Have you seen Eraserhead?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  I've seen Eraserhead and I thought, this is an unusual film. I said, I have no idea.

• 6:31Sam Fragoso?

  I saw it and I thought, that's a well-adjusted man.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  This is somebody you want to spend some time with in a dark room. And I remember seeing, um, they said, oh, he's here, he's here. He comes in and is sort of a, hey, how you doing? Very friendly, kind of feels like a midwestern kind of sensibility. Great to see you. Yeah, he has kind of a, kind of a little bit of a twang, kind of a nasal thing like this. And sit down and really made me feel comfortable and very personable. And we sat in a room and I remember it was, it was not a, I mean, it was kind of a desk, chair, not much going on as you would imagine in a, in, in those, because they're temporary, these facilities.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Um, and we just sat and we talked, not about Dune. We talked about where you grew up, you know, and what it was like. And we, turns out we shared the Pacific Northwest as a location for, he's from Missoula, grew up in Missoula and some of the other cities around that area. His dad was in the Forest Service, uh, grew up in Yakima. We, you know, talked about that. I talked about spending time up at Priest Lake when I was a little kid with my grandparents and he recognized that. He said, oh, yeah, I knew about that. So we found these common links. Uh, and at the end of the conversation, he said, here's the script to Dune. And he handed me a very thick script, my first ever film script that I'd seen. It's like, wow. And he said, you learn these scenes here, and they had been marked up,

• 8:03Speaker 02

  and, and we'll screen test and, you know, come back in about four or five days and we'll screen test. And I said, sounds great. So I went back to Seattle and I learned the scenes, came back down five days later and screen tested, very nervous.

• 8:17Sam Fragoso?

  How did you work through those nerves?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  I think I was ready, you know, I'd graduated, spent three years in training, very intense training. I kind of launched into the world. I worked at the Shakespeare Festival right out of school. I was doing a play in Seattle. I'd had some success and I was on my way. And I think there was a, a sense of confidence that was there, that overrode the nerves. And I couldn't believe how nice all the people were that I was surrounded by, you know, they had the, they had hair and makeup. I never had hair and makeup done. This is something you did in a theater yourself. They had to costume for you, the wardrobe stuff. And I was like, this is amazing. And we were, I remember we were working at John Dykstra's studio, Apogee Studio, which is where they had the screen test. And I had the scenes down cold and I knew kind of what to do.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  And he just told me to do, you know, stand here, do this. Kind of like laid it out for me. I'd never been in front of a camera before. I had to do one speech in particular, straight to the camera. That was a tough one. That's where I sort of lost my focus. And David came in and said, you got this. He just said, you know, you're gonna be okay. Just, you know, take your time. It's all right. You're doing great. You know, just a very simple words of encouragement that I took to heart and finished the scene.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  The guild and the entire universe depends on spice. He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing. I will take 100 of your warriors and train them. This 100 will train the thousands that remain. When the spice flow stops, all eyes will turn to Arrakis. The Baron and the Emperor himself will be forced to deal with us. Arrakis will become the center of the universe.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  And I went back to my hotel, the Beverly Garland Holiday Inn. And there was a bottle of wine on my table. And David had sent that bottle over as a gesture of goodwill, a thank you and kind of, I think you, you know, I hope this works out.

• 10:24Sam Fragoso?

  You said once that David and I went into a sort of tailspin. In 1985, what did that look like?

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Well, so Dune premiered in December of 84. And I remember we had the premiere and everything was great. I, we all, I all went back home. We had Christmas at home in Yakima. And shortly after Christmas, the intention was that we were gonna go shoot Blue Velvet because David had given me the script of Blue Velvet. We were gonna start on that in January. Well, I got a call that said the film's been put on hold. Dune, no one really said that Dune wasn't doing very well. It wasn't doing very well, but I wasn't really paying attention. I was focused on the next thing. I just remember getting the call for some reason at my dad's office. I don't know why they called me there. Um, but I had a manager at that time. They called and said, I think you better come down and, you know, we gotta sort of get going here on the next thing, because there was nothing.

• 11:15Sam Fragoso?

  How did you feel on that?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  I was like, okay. I said, sounds like another adventure. I was really up for it. And I said, well, so I packed up my stuff. I got in my Jeep and I drove to Los Angeles and found an apartment. I had an agent already and I had a manager who was working and a lawyer. And so I was like, all right, we'll just, we'll figure this out. I had a whole team in place, yeah.

• 11:36Sam Fragoso?

  But when you say tailspin, what did that look like?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Well, I think it was because we were trying to do, we were gonna go shoot Blue Velvet and then I got canceled. And then so David, David suffered as well. So he had, you know, everything all lined up to go. And then suddenly it's not going. So it's like, we gotta figure this out because Dune got severely damaged by the critics. It was, it was not pretty. But Blue Velvet, when I read the script that David gave me while we were filming Dune, I was really enchanted with it. I, I really, there was something about it that I felt connected to somehow, or I understood the journey. It was interesting, it was something you could, I could really, you know, playing Paul Atreides is a challenge because so much of it is internal.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  And here was Jeffrey Beaumont going through these experiences. And I said, no, this is kind of something that I can relate to, understand what might happen with the character.

• 12:30Sam Fragoso?

  Someone having some trouble accessing emotions.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, but at the same time, it was, that was part of the journey for, for me, because he does get to the point where.

• 12:42Sam Fragoso?

  A breaking point.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, uh, and that was a, it was, it was a breaking point for the character. It was also sort of a breakthrough point for me in an odd way, because it required this emotional reaction, this response. And David, again, coming back to David, was very, very generous and helpful, gentle through the process and allowed me the time, the space to be able to do that scene. You know, it helped me, helped me, helped me sort of get through that.

• 13:10Sam Fragoso?

  What were you working through at that time?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  I think it was just the idea of, of that kind of exposure.

• 13:17Sam Fragoso?

  Exposure to?

• 13:18Speaker 02

  That kind of like vulnerability, honestly, I think in that moment. In an environment that is not necessarily, you're surrounded by people, the camera's there, there's a clock ticking, there's an expectation, this is going to happen at a certain point in time in the scene. And that stuff will make, you know, it makes you freeze up. Makes me freeze up, gets me tighten, tighten up is a good word. But again, David was generous and kind with the, with the time and the allowance and everything and I, I was very, I was like, okay. What I love, still love is the, it's almost an investigative process with a character.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  And that kind of exploration, discovery of what this person is and how they fit within the world that they are of the story. That is always something that, that's something I think I, that was what I, what I loved, even though I, maybe I didn't really understand what it was in the very beginning. It was that process of becoming another person, of creating another reality that I really, really liked.

• 14:23Sam Fragoso?

  So what was that process like for Agent Cooper, late eighties, early nineties, making Twin Peaks? What does that look like?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  It is a lot of joy, a lot of fun, just great pleasure in exploring some of the things that he relishes as a character, whether it's fir trees or coffee or cherry pie.

• 14:46Speaker 04

  Oh, afternoon, guys. Need some coffee?

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Afternoon, Shelley, yes. We should be on our way. Harry? I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it, don't wait for it, just let it happen. Could be a new shirt at the men's store, a cat nap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot, black coffee.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  And it's kind of embracing the quirkiness of that as well.

• 15:25Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean by that?

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Well, just his turn, a turn of phrase, or an observation, or, you know, something he gets excited about, finding the letter under the fingernail, you know, with the tweezers, you know, that kind of stuff like that. Having a mystery, having a secret. And then also working with David. It was simply that, the pleasure of that, and the joy of seeing him smile or laugh, you know, that that felt to me like we're on to something here.

• 15:54Sam Fragoso?

  When you mentioned those investigative elements that you were talking about and making the character, is that process different for each role? And for that one in particular, what did that look like to you?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  It is different, but the journey is, the journey is different, but the process is the same. So it's really about using the script as a blueprint and then bringing in your own, who I am, and my thoughts and feelings about it. And then you have another layer, which is the working component with the other person. And what that dynamic is, and how that changes and morphs as you go through a scene.

• 16:32Sam Fragoso?

  And did your relationship with David change by that point? I know he only did the first couple of episodes, but having made Dune, then Blue Velvet, and here, you two both probably changed as artists in that time.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  I think, yes, I think the impact of the structure of episodic television like that on network television was one that I think we both didn't anticipate, having such a strong influence and...

• 17:00Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean by that?

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Well, I think it was creatively not that fulfilling, honestly. The expectations that were, that are in place, that exist for a reason. You know, you've got to move the story forward. You have to satisfy your audience. And I don't think that's something that David thinks about. He's creating something that works for him when he does his work. And so I think having to answer to other people is something that he just was not into at all. That was challenging.

• 17:32Sam Fragoso?

  You've said multiple times that you were frustrated that he made the show and that he left, and then you were kind of there to continue making it.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Trying to, yeah, trying to, trying to hold it together. But I, at the same, I mean, from this perspective, I, I understand this is not who he is as an artist. And Twin Peaks, I don't know if in their minds, it really was meant to be more than what it was. I mean, I think this, I think the idea of, of an ongoing story was really appealing to David. But it was a story that would have had so many branches and variety, and it wasn't really about solving

• 18:12Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  the murder ever, really. It was about that, about the journey of these interesting, quirky, eccentric characters.

• 18:19Sam Fragoso?

  And thinking about your career in a sort of more big picture way.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:23Sam Fragoso?

  People have called up David Lynch many times for profiles of yours as a kind of reference. And I always say, why do you gravitate towards Kyle over and over and over again? And he has basically the same quote, some variations, but it's basically the same one. And he says, Kyle plays innocents who are interested in the mysteries of life. He's the person you trust enough to go into the strange world with.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 18:52Sam Fragoso?

  And I just love that description.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 18:55Sam Fragoso?

  And I wonder, as, you know, soon to be 65.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:00Sam Fragoso?

  If you're still interested in exploring the mysteries of life through your work in the years to come, is that something you still want to do, however challenging, or complex, or dark the worlds may be? Is that something that

• 19:16Speaker 02

  I do.

• 19:16Sam Fragoso?

  Do you still want to be the gateway?

• 19:17Speaker 02

  I do. And I think part of the fun of this, looking back over 40 plus years, is that, that journey, pursuing those mysteries, changes because I'm now not 23. And so what I'm interested in and where I want to go and what I'm curious about, completely different.

• 19:38Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Than when I was that age.

• 19:40Sam Fragoso?

  The best analogy I can find. To what you do as an actor comes from this cartoon.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 19:50Sam Fragoso?

  That I think you really like. And I was wondering if you could take a look at it.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:58Sam Fragoso?

  And explain it to the listeners and see if it means anything to you.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  This is like a mysterious. You can see an old man with a cane, taking a curtain call. And the crowd is going crazy. Next, you see him backstage, pulling off the old man costume. And you see he's a strapping young guy. In the last frame, you see him at home, pulling off the young man mask. And he's actually the old man with the cane.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  I think that's pretty brilliant.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  I love that. There is something that I about acting that I think is important to me, which is, I don't have to agree with everything the character does. I don't have to, but I have to understand why they do what they do. I have to understand where it comes from. And I think if if you understand that, or make an attempt to understand that, you are all people. You know what I mean? You're you're we are all the we're all connected as people. But it's like, you can make that journey between the old man and the young man and back again, because you are all of those things somehow. That's important to me.

• 21:06Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, that's been pretty much your life's work.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, crazy.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  I still love doing it, Sam. Thank you so very much.

• 21:16Sam Fragoso?

  We took the strange scenic route.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  I like this route because it's in both of our own words. And it's not an article written that would modify it. Right? So this is, you know, for better or worse, this is this is the expression of this moment, which I think is great.

• 21:32Sam Fragoso?

  So this will be Kyle McLaughlin in his own words, parentheses, and some of Sam's.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  A lot of Sam, great questions, probing. The coffee was certainly worthwhile.

• 21:44Sam Fragoso?

  Damn fine.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Damn fine.

• 21:49Sam Fragoso?

  That was actor Kyle McLaughlin. After a short break, the one and only Lord.

• 22:01Sam Fragoso?

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• 23:33Sam Fragoso?

  The pivotal moment seems to be, which has been written about a little bit, is that '17, you go to college. You are rooming with Marianne Williamson, which I don't even know what that looks like. But I'm curious if you could go back to that. Can you remember that brief period where you're in school for, I think, two days before getting the offer to play a part in Blue Velvet?

• 24:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I will say, I was studying acting with Peggy Fury, extraordinary acting teacher. And, you know, here in L.A., had Mary Ann as my roommate, started these couple of days, got that part, ultimately went away and was asked to leave school. They would not give me a leave of absence to go do this film, which was very heartbreaking to me. But then came back and applied to a different local amazing college and went there for almost a year. Almost finished my second semester and then got another film that was undeniable

• 24:43Speaker 05

  and ended up leaving and realizing that that was my great passion.

• 24:47Sam Fragoso?

  Did you have your own Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore moment when you're the actor on set producing this performance? Do you remember a film early on where you're like, "Oh, right, that's what I wanted to do"?

• 25:03Speaker 05

  I think it would circle back to family. When I've sat at a dinner or sat on the floor rehearsing and brainstorming, it's the community part that I felt that. Not actually being in the moment as an actor.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  More, you know, my relationship with David Lynch or Jonathan Demme or Robert Altman and now Greta and Noah. It's like, oh, right. We're at play together. We're making this thing together. We all have room for our voice and we're a family and we love each other. That's such an amazing feeling.

• 25:44Sam Fragoso?

  I sensed it rewatching Wild at Heart last night.

• 25:49Speaker 06

  Let's go down some peanut. I'm ready.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  But we better be careful. Because mom's gonna have Johnny Faragut on us like a duck on a June bug. And that Johnny is one clever detective. You know how clever?

• 26:05Speaker 06

  How clever?

• 26:06Speaker 00

  If you told me once, he could find an honest man in Washington.

• 26:10Speaker 06

  Wild.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Just one, two more moments and my toes will be dry.

• 26:19Speaker 06

  Well, one thing puzzles my mind, sugar.

• 26:21Speaker 00

  What's that?

• 26:22Speaker 06

  You're 20 years old. Ain't you ever curious why your mom's got this fixation on keeping us apart?

• 26:32Speaker 06

  I'll tell you, Lila.

• 26:35Speaker 06

  Well...

• 26:38Speaker 06

  It's more of me killing Bob Ray Lemon.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  Well, maybe my mama cares for me just a little too much.

• 26:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, maybe.

• 26:52Sam Fragoso?

  What's going on in that movie? My god, it is like so magnetic and so wonderful.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 26:59Sam Fragoso?

  And then as someone who is making movies myself and is trying to figure out what I'd like to say, I see that and I think, not a fucking chance. I could never make anything like that. That is so singular.

• 27:12Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:12Sam Fragoso?

  So on to him.

• 27:14Speaker 05

  I mean...

• 27:15Sam Fragoso?

  I like how I made this about me. It's actually about you.

• 27:17Speaker 05

  But by the way, we all share that when it comes to David Lynch because he is the Renaissance man and there is no one like him. And when we were at the Governor's Awards for the Academy, David won an honorary Oscar. And myself, Kyle McLaughlin, and Isabella Rossellini had the honor of giving it to him, which was amazing. And when they showed David's clip reel, every filmmaker who we worship, who is in that room,

• 27:47Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:48Speaker 05

  literally looked at the person next to them or came up to me after and was like, "Oh, my god, why am I doing this?" Like, no one will ever have a clip reel like that. That's insane. The level of bravery. The level of even worrying about boundary.

• 28:04Speaker 05

  David doesn't have the DNA makeup for, "Do you think it's OK if I..." It doesn't exist in him. He's in it. He's not looking at it from the outside. He doesn't finish a script and then reread it and go, "Ooh, maybe I should take this part out." He's an unedited, pure vessel of art and intuition. And I've never seen anything like it, and it's the gift of my lifetime to have been raised with that kind of sensibility.

• 28:36Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm. This is maybe a silly question, but when you're looking at your collaborations with him and that sort of lifelong, you know, team that you have created together, what do you think he saw in you that made him think, "Yes, I need her in my movies"?

• 28:58Speaker 05

  Well, it wasn't talent, because he didn't see me in anything, and he doesn't audition mostly. So I didn't audition, and he hadn't seen me in a movie.

• 29:11Speaker 05

  And he cast me. And it's the first time I was ever cast without auditioning. So I walked in the room and clearly embodied Sandy for him. And I think it's a purity. I really do. I think I was a very innocent, pure believer.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  There are a couple of cases I get mixed up on. But one name that keeps coming up is this woman singer. She lives in an apartment building that is real close to your house. It's also close to the field where you found the year.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  It's a strange world, isn't it?

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Do you know where this woman's apartment building is?

• 29:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's really close by. That's what's so creepy. They had her under surveillance for a couple of months, except I don't know what they found out, because it's not my dad's case, so...

• 30:05Speaker 03

  I guess you gotta get back home pretty soon, huh?

• 30:08Speaker 00

  Not really. Why?

• 30:10Speaker 03

  Well, um...

• 30:12Speaker 00

  You wanna see the building?

• 30:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Come on, I'll show you.

• 30:20Speaker 05

  You know, when I've gone through hard times in life, or heartbreak, and other friends have gone through the same, and I listen to them talk about, "Oh, trust me, I'll never trust this kind of person again," or "I'll never do that again," or, I realize my great gift and my deep challenge is that I don't have cynicism and bitterness. And I am so grateful for it. And I do think it's a wonderful trait as an artist. It's challenging in relationship because it is hard to set boundaries when you aren't over it and saying, "I'm done with this kind of dynamic in my life," or something like that.

• 31:04Speaker 05

  And I think I don't want to lose a belief in other people. And that's, I think, the deepest heartbreak of these times. You know, especially when political officials are saying, "You know, it's not about the guns, it's about mental health." It's actually about the guns. Because we've known plenty of people, and I've loved plenty of people, with deep, challenging mood disorders, who, you know, don't come into a classroom and create horror. So you need belief in people, but you also need boundary. And I think David saw the belief part, and over time, as a person

• 31:48Speaker 05

  and as an artist, over time, I've learned to create boundary.

• 31:53Sam Fragoso?

  You're talking about something even larger, though, that seems to be at the core of you, which is you are deeply empathetic, it seems. That you, like you said, you want to believe in the good of people. Has it been challenging to keep that?

• 32:09Speaker 05

  I think, yes, and I think it is for all of us. I think we are all given... And maybe this is pre-designed, but I think we are all given experiences that shake us and give us an opportunity to deepen our commitment to trusting self, trusting others' integrity, you know, loving thy neighbor, if you will, despite the stuff we've been through. And so it's not an easy task. And I'm amazed watching loved ones who've been through such horror and tragedies and still feel so joyful and hopeful. And I do think it keeps art pure.

• 32:54Speaker 05

  And I think for David, keeps everything pure. Art, sexuality in the character, longing for love, belief in something larger out there. I think these are things he's really wanted in characters, even ones that are horrifically misguided.

• 33:11Sam Fragoso?

  In 1994, your mother decides to direct her first movie. It's called Mrs. Monk. And in the process of making it, she allows you to make a behind-the-scenes documentary. It is called Mom and Dad's Movie. I couldn't find it online. I looked, I searched, I asked, nothing. I'm very curious. What is that like? You're on set, they invite you to do this piece in a very intimate space between your mother and father, who had their, whatever, public spats. What was that like as their kid watching?

• 33:53Speaker 05

  Amazing. And I don't, I have to find it. I don't know where it is.

• 33:59Sam Fragoso?

  Please, please.

• 34:00Speaker 05

  But I'll find it. And amazing, brilliant artist Pam Goldblum and Jeffrey Kaiser shot, both amazing painters, artists and teachers. Pam, who's the sister of Jeff Goldblum. I loved them and I loved their work and they helped me shoot it. And we had so much fun cutting it together. And it was an amazing experience because they were honest and they gave us access to dailies and I found complicated dailies and delicious dailies.

• 34:32Sam Fragoso?

  What does that look like?

• 34:34Speaker 05

  You know, I think what it looked like was them being each other's... Best friends. You know, I never saw them together, really.

• 34:44Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 34:45Speaker 05

  So this was, in a way, one of my first opportunities to see them in art collaboration. And I realized, oh, they're best friends. They love each other. They feel the same way about art. They work the same way. And I saw all these amazing commonalities that bonded them, as well as their love for me. Like, when I showed up and started talking to them, their delight in being in conversation with me. Usually, I'm with my dad or I'm with my mom. And since that film, since Mrs. Monk, I've had a relationship with both of them. We spend Thanksgivings and Christmases together. So it was an altering experience.

• 35:27Sam Fragoso?

  There is some poetry to the fact that it took a movie being made for them to come together with you.

• 35:34Speaker 05

  Totally, totally.

• 35:35Sam Fragoso?

  That is so wild to me.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. But I mean, I feel that throughout my life with my mother. And I've felt it throughout my life. So when I'm back with David, or was back with Altman, or, you know, and I do have that feeling with Noah and Greta, like, we'll keep working together and mining and loving each other. And, you know, the safety that you feel to go farther with people who have an innate faith in you means there's no audition in the process. You're just to work, being in the creative and trying to find it in the moment. And I find it so freeing. So to be in that space already

• 36:22Speaker 05

  and then work with my mom in that space as a 20-year-old and a 24-year-old, and then again, as a 40-year-old, unenlightened, you know, it's an amazing thing to kind of reconsider the mother-daughter dynamic over and over again in totally different ways. Like, the most extreme possibilities.

• 36:42Sam Fragoso?

  Different iterations as the years go along.

• 36:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that's been amazing. You know, I've Had people I was so close to with David that I didn't see for years. And then on Twin Peaks, we had such reunions. And in Lindempire, we had a few. So it's, that's just incredible to heal wounds or spend time with people from your past. As intimate or not as it's been, you're all different people 15 years later. You know, there's something gorgeous about that.

• 37:16Sam Fragoso?

  When you think about your kids, they're about to enter adulthood of some kind. Maybe they already have. And then when you look at 35 years of work, are you happy with it? Are you happy with how you've done?

• 37:32Speaker 05

  Oh, God, I'm so happy. I mean, I haven't done near what I want to do. And that's so exciting. I'm so happy to be at what I assume is a midpoint of a very long career that will keep me impassioned and excited forever and will involve other crafts and studying and learning and a million journeys and new families to find. And I don't get to say that, I don't have to say it, as a sort of actor-y pipe dream. My parents are 80 and I'm hoping to see them at Thanksgiving

• 38:17Speaker 05

  because they might be too busy while one is promoting a film and one's on location in Vancouver. That's fantastic. I love it. You know, and talking to me about the, my mother's talking about some scoff she found that is so iconic to the character. You know, my dad's like, yeah, you know, I just ran a 5K. I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, and I finished third.

• 38:41Sam Fragoso?

  You did her accent, but not his.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, this is a little him. I get him blended with David Lynch sometimes. But he's like, I finished third in this race and thing and I gotta go to a Q and A for Mustang and then I'm going to do this movie in South Carolina. I'm just like, wow. They love it. And they will do that till they leave this earth. They will be artists. It's great inspiration. And David has been like that as an inspiration for me, too. So lucky.

• 39:53Speaker 05

  Every film, I think, is, as I said, going into a new world, going into the unknown. But you should be not afraid of using your intuition and feel, think your way through. Have the experience and trust your inner knowing of what it is.

• 40:13Sam Fragoso?

  Cinema is such a beautiful language. And all of you all, you have the gift of words. But cinema is a thing that deals with things beyond words. And it's so beautiful. And so to go with cinema is to go like the same kind of thing you go with music. But the intellect travels along with it. It's so fantastic. It talks to you, but not with words alone. So just go in open and just go in and have an experience in a different world.

• 41:19Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show.

• 41:21Sam Fragoso?

  I want to give a special thanks this week to Spotify Studios, Pierce Harvey, and of course, Kyle McLaughlin and Laura Dern. To hear our original conversations with both of them in full, visit our show notes at talkeasypod.com. For more episodes, I'd recommend Willem Dafoe, Natasha Lyonne, and Francis Ford Coppola. This episode was produced by Caroline Reebok and executive produced by Janix Bravo. It was edited by Caitlin Dryden, Andre Lin, and Matt Sasaki. It was mixed by Andrew Bastola. Our illustrations are by Khrisha Shanway. Music this week comes from Dylan Peck, Viki Lee, and the inimitable

• 42:02Sam Fragoso?

  David Lynch. This show is made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media, and I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Until then, stay safe, and so long.

• 42:35Speaker 05

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together. We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats. I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there? There were 32,000 pounds of them. 32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats. That's it. Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.

• 43:05Sam Fragoso?

  History gets written, then rewritten, sometimes by scholars correcting the record, sometimes by committees deciding what a generation of kids will and won't learn. The version that makes it into the textbook isn't always the only story. It's the one that won out. That's the kind of thing Ground News was built for. It shows you how outlets across the spectrum tell the same story, side by side, so you can spot the shading for yourself. Ground News gives each outlet a factuality rating, so you know how much weight to give the source, and shows you who owns it, so you know what's behind it. The Nobel Peace Center called it "an excellent way to stay informed,

• 43:48Sam Fragoso?

  avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview." So go to groundnews.com/rz. That's G-R-O-U-N-D-N-E-W-S dot com slash R-C for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/rz, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/rz.