How JSOC Uses Instagram Ads to Track Terrorists | Mike Yeagley | Ep. 401

We sit down with ad tech and data analytics expert Mike Yeagley to discuss how commercial advertising data became a powerful intelligence tool used by the U. S. national security community. He explains how smartphones, apps, and location data can reveal patterns of life and how programs developed with special operations helped track terrorists and understand targets on the battlefield. We also discuss privacy, surveillance, and what this technology means for intelligence operations and everyday people. Today's Sponsors: Mando ⬇️ Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with MANDO and get 20% off + free shipping with promo code [TEAMHOUSE] at https://shopmando.com/ GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Miracle Made ⬇️ Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/HOUSE and use the code HOUSE to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF.” ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ PRE ORDER JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://a.co/d/0eOl8czU Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 Start 05:14 Mike Yeagley’s Tech Background 11:16 How Ad Tech Works 18:10 JSOC Discovers Ad Tech Intelligence 24:50 Fort Bragg to Syria Discovery 30:19 Smartphones and OPSEC Risks 40:34 Operating Under Surveillance 47:59 Locomotive to VISR Program 57:07 Tracking ISIS Targets with Data 1:00:35 Policy and Bureaucratic Challenges 1:08:41 Data-Driven Human Targeting 1:13:08 Legal Issues Using Civilian Data 1:21:14 Social Media and Disinformation 1:26:23 Why “Going Dark” Doesn’t Work 1:34:54 Training the Intel Community 1:40:12 The Unplugged Privacy Phone 1:46:30 Privacy and Future Tradecraft Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 3:37Speaker 03

  The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 3:49Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 401 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here today with our guest, Mike Yagley. Mike had a long career and this is a little bit different for our podcast in ad technology.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 4:02Jack Murphy?

  But that also played into using that technology for intelligence purposes with the special operations community. And Mike was a big part of the program that was called Locomotive and then Visor.

• 4:14Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 4:15Jack Murphy?

  I, and consults with the intelligence community with our government and actually has some very interesting stories to talk about regarding OPSEC and signature reduction and how we go looking for bad guys out there in the world. So, thank you, Mike, for joining us.

• 4:31Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me. It's great to be in the Team House.

• 4:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah, this is, I mean, I love, as much as I love interviewing like Rangers and operators and stuff like that, it's cool to get the behind the scenes and kind of hear the other side of the story because there's a lot, as I'm sure you learned when you were working there, there's a lot that goes into making these operations happen.

• 4:52Speaker 05

  It's, it's, so if you think about intelligence as a data set, whether it's human, ELINT, SIGINT, they are data sets. And there's this other component of data set that is called commercial data. It is the data that everybody generates, the telemetry off of your devices, your watches, your smartphones, your smart refrigerators, your cars.

• 5:23Jack Murphy?

  The stuff we click on, the videos we watch.

• 5:25Speaker 05

  Everything. We basically have agreed to carry sensors with us wherever we go, and those sensors have become systemic to our livelihoods. But that data tells a very, very interesting, very intimate story. And that story is told about operators, case officers, special agents, the community that has acute requirements for discretion or privacy,

• 6:04Speaker 05

  they can't outrun this. Our adversaries can't outrun it. And so it is emerging as an int that is low risk, low cost to acquire compared to other forms. And when introduced as this new concept about 10 years ago, you know, people were comparing it to the, you know, this is like the M4, you know, it was revolutionary. Meanwhile, the advertising community had been doing it since. Smartphones became ubiquitous.

• 6:45Speaker 05

  Some of the best geospatial intelligence analysts work on Madison Avenue wearing skinny jeans. But they are developing patterns of life of consumers for a different conversion metric. They're looking for lift and to sell us stuff we don't need. Whereas the conversion metric, whether it's a targeting application or an OPSEC or counterintelligence application is, the words are different, but at the same, we're looking for the same kind of lift. And we think about this, the intelligence world as having the answers to everything.

• 7:26Speaker 05

  And from the perspective of innovation and what the taxpayer should expect of their government to be innovating, there are pockets within our government that do this very well. And they're usually not, it's not in their remit to be innovators. They're doing it because the mission requires it.

• 7:50Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they have to.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  And this program happened because of 28-year-olds who weren't told to go and be innovative. They just were. And that should make us feel good.

• 8:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  So if you think about this evolution over this period of time, we've gotten a little better, but we need to be able to move a little faster. We're still trying to figure out what to make of commercial data. Well, we've had 10 years. We should be beyond the policy paper and we should be in full operational mode.

• 8:36Jack Murphy?

  Well, let's take a step back here. You've spent about 20 years in the private sector. Tell us a little bit about, you know, kind of like how you found your way into that line of work.

• 8:49Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 8:49Jack Murphy?

  What did you start doing as an entry level guy versus where you ended up 20 years later?

• 8:53Speaker 05

  Well, uh, so I came of age in the dot com revolution. Uh, worked for a bunch of startups, uh, in that period of time. None of them, uh, exited, which is why I'm still working. But, uh, um, but it was, I've always been in the data analytics, uh, field, either as a project manager, implementation on the BD side, business development side, but always in that, um, space of integrating various data sets into what we would call in the, in the community, a common operating picture, or what's called in the, in the private sector,

• 9:35Speaker 05

  business intelligence, um, where you're looking at, um, you know, the equivalent would be, uh, you may have heard the story, uh, where you've got, uh, a guy who comes into a store and he buys, he's there to buy diapers and he buys a six pack of beer. And that correlation, um, is visible in point of sale data. Well, the same mechanics work when we're talking about intelligence. We're looking for patterns and correlation and things that are non-obvious. But when you take a step back, it's like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So 20 years doing that type of work at a higher, uh, speed because of implementation mechanics and things like that.

• 10:18Jack Murphy?

  I mean, the timeframes involved, I mean, you're going from presumably a time when the internet was still pretty primitive to the advent of social media. I mean, you must've seen some pretty tremendous changes in your field.

• 10:29Speaker 05

  Oh, I mean, so the internet, I was, I was working in this field when the, didn't quite know what the internet was as a delivery mechanism. So think about it this way, oh, we had electricity and that was, that was groundbreaking. But what was the killer app for electricity?

• 10:53Speaker 05

  The light switch. That made it.

• 10:55Jack Murphy?

  I was gonna say AC electricity.

• 10:57Speaker 05

  Uh, the light switch was the equivalent of the browser.

• 11:02Jack Murphy?

  Right, right. The interface.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  The interface. It made it so that everybody could use it. You didn't need to write scripts and code. You could use it. Um, and then it just became the platform that everything is built off of. So, back then, it was, uh, interesting if your app was designed for the web. As opposed to being something you'd go and install on a corporate server.

• 11:30Jack Murphy?

  Got you, yeah.

• 11:31Speaker 05

  And hosted and you'd have to go to the, you know, the AS400 server to get to it. This was pre those, those days. And, uh, companies that sort of, you know, there were a lot of companies that were functioning as companies when they were really just features and functions of some larger capability.

• 11:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 11:53Speaker 05

  Um, and that's where you started seeing the consolidation. So, yeah, I, I was in, working in the valley when this was happening. Um, the hubris and arrogance and the self-righteousness was just like out of control.

• 12:10Jack Murphy?

  When you say that, you mean sort of that like famous Jurassic Park quote of like, you, you reign towards it so quickly that you never really thought if you should?

• 12:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. We, the, the note, the idea of I am smarter and have a vision that others can't quite ponder and get.

• 12:30Jack Murphy?

  Right. Only I.

• 12:31Speaker 05

  Only I can see, uh, through this. And so, there was a lot of, you know, and I was, I was, I was young at the time, um, but, uh... So I've seen a lot of the failures. I've seen how things don't scale. And when I started this with JSOC, we were able to look at it from a perspective of minimum viable product, MVP. So we're not going to try to boil the ocean with a match. We're going to start with very basic functionality and grow it incrementally,

• 13:14Speaker 05

  just along a linear path, but doing it in a way where I'm sitting with intelligence analysts at the Joint Intelligence Brigade, the JIB, which was my sponsoring entity, and sort of walking them through how this works in there. If we could do it this way, would that... And I'm just taking requirements and sort of building the capability that way. The interesting piece in all of this was that we decided that the command did not need more software. They did not need an interface. They did not need an application. They wanted data. They wanted the raw data.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  Which, you know...

• 14:00Jack Murphy?

  They have their analysts.

• 14:01Speaker 05

  We have our analysts and we have more geospatial capability than we know what to do with. We want data. And that was an interesting decision because typically people want the easy button. They want a really cool interface where they can log in, do their thing, they don't have to think about it. We were selling raw data to JSOC.

• 14:30Jack Murphy?

  So before we jump into the military side of it, I just want to dwell on this just a little bit longer for some of our viewers and myself included, who might not be familiar with the industry. When I think of ad tech, what is ad tech? To me, it is like you see those ads on Facebook.

• 14:48Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 14:48Jack Murphy?

  They're targeting me.

• 14:49Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:49Jack Murphy?

  Because they know I like to paint scale miniatures, so they're gonna try to sell me scale miniatures. Somebody who's a little more wealthy, they're trying to sell them Lexuses or something like this. How does, you know, if, what do you see ad tech as, you know, in the industry? What else am I missing there that it includes?

• 15:09Speaker 05

  I mean, that's, so if you think about ad tech, ad tech is technology infrastructure powered by data. The underlying, the decisions or the analysis is made through data. And what ad tech basically is nurturing is this ability to connect an advertiser with a consumer in a millisecond through something called real-time bidding, where there is space on your device for an ad placement.

• 15:43Jack Murphy?

  This is like Google Ads.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  Google Ads.

• 15:45Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 15:45Speaker 05

  Yep, yep. So this ad tech is the infrastructure that makes all of that happen at scale, where you're playing a game and you get an ad. And that ad, the premise or the thesis is that ad that you are seeing on your device is relevant to you. Now, chances are, because you're playing a game, the ad is going to source or consider that contextual signal, you are a gamer.

• 16:16Jack Murphy?

  So you'll buy more games.

• 16:17Speaker 05

  So you'll buy more games, so you're probably seeing more ads for games.

• 16:22Speaker 05

  I will tell you, there is no, I do not know of any situation where ad tech has intercepted, and I've heard this story before, that intercepted somebody who's on their way to Starbucks with an ad that diverted them to some other coffee place. Doesn't work that way. This is sort of a long tail of targeting you based upon some contextual.

• 16:45Jack Murphy?

  It's like, what do they say, that somebody has to have like eight impressions or something like that?

• 16:49Speaker 05

  Before, for recall and things like that. So, yeah, this is. What this is, this is the premise behind advertising, especially when you see billboard ads and you ask yourself, how is that, how's that moving me?

• 17:01Jack Murphy?

  And so what's your role in this industry? Are you a programmer? Are you a statistician? What is it?

• 17:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, in that, in that world, I was sourcing and looking at different data sets to enhance the targeting capability. So the ad tech world, they didn't invent data brokerage, but they were big consumers of companies that had data sets that were interesting, that could provide an unusual signal or a signal that was a differentiator. And so I came from that angle of the world where I'm out scouting for data sets and talking to companies that maybe they don't even know they've got a data set that's worth anything and bringing that to market.

• 17:53Jack Murphy?

  Purely on the commercial side and like I've known people that, you know, they talk about these folks in Madison Avenue that almost as life, you know, it's the Illuminati or something, but I'm, I am a little curious. Like working in this field for 20 years, did you ever have a moment like, holy shit?

• 18:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, so that I had the epiphany, you know, was we are building cohorts based upon these very discreet signals about who they are and what they, what they are likely to do.

• 18:31Speaker 05

  And, and at the time, being able to attribute those signals to an actual person, the community that industry wasn't doing that. They're looking to try to sell to a thousand people, but you could resolve an intense signal based upon an ad ID, GPS, and I think it's what's, what's, what's important to understand is that the mobile phone changed advertising because advertising was limited to what you were watching on TV and what you were doing on your browser.

• 19:08Jack Murphy?

  Magazines and newspapers.

• 19:11Speaker 05

  The mobile phone gave a new foundational understanding of human geography based upon where you go.

• 19:21Speaker 05

  And that, and we call that when you're offline, what are you doing? Well, you're going to CrossFit, you're going to gun ranges, you're going to a European car dealership, and then we see you at three other European car dealerships. You must be in the market for a European car. And resolving those signals and being able to then sell a group of people that are indicating that they are interested in a European import. As a very precise cohort group of likely buyers changed everything.

• 20:03Speaker 05

  Now, what I will tell you is that cat videos don't sell Nikes and Facebook or Meta learned that really hard when they lost the ad ID three years ago. Cost them about $10 billion in over two quarters because that precise, the ability to append your offline patterns of life to a stable identifier. If this is, if you're on your, your mobile device and you, you, you go to privacy settings and you say, don't, no cross-tracking, or you turn off all of your location services,

• 20:45Speaker 05

  that upended companies like Facebook and how they were doing targeted ads. And that was, again, another change in that industry that drove advertising to, to, to new levels of inference and awareness and being able to connect the dots that aren't so obvious to understand intent signals.

• 21:13Speaker 05

  And don't confuse an advertiser and an adversary. They're doing the same thing. Conversion metrics are a little different.

• 21:21Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 21:22Speaker 05

  But there's not, there's not a lot of difference in.

• 21:25Jack Murphy?

  How they target.

• 21:26Speaker 05

  How they target.

• 21:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Tell us the story about how you were talking to a company about ad tech and how JSOC initially approached you.

• 21:36Speaker 05

  So I, this is, I set the stage. I'm at a very bougie hotel, doing a presentation to an investor conference of, of hedge funds. They're quantitative analysts who do nothing but crunch data, looking for signal in that data to feed their black boxes, looking for buy signals that nobody else could see.

• 22:05Speaker 05

  And so I'm giving this presentation about alternative data and particularly this new sort of data set that gives high fidelity information about what's going on at locations.

• 22:21Speaker 05

  And so I wrap up my presentation. I was given a bunch of use cases involving the United States. And as, you know, people do when they're presenting and sort of dwelling at the podium, answering questions, passing business cards around. And I see two guys sort of lingering at the, sort of at the side. And I should also say that at a conference like this, it is very Patagonia laden, you know, sweater, Patagonia vests and the uniform of the day.

• 22:52Speaker 05

  But these guys are not dressed like that.

• 22:55Speaker 05

  And so they approach and I will tell you that they definitely did not fit into the hedge fund crowd. I'm wondering what, what is, what are the Hells Angels interested in? Cause they looked like one percenters from an MC.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  But the questions they asked were phenomenal.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  They were very aware of data. They were very aware of ad tech.

• 23:24Speaker 05

  But the question that they really had was, we're interested in every, the use cases that you presented about the United States. Can you do this overseas? Well, sure. Of course, we can do. We're advertising in Europe and Middle East, of course. How about sort of the developing world? What do you mean? And they sort of paused.

• 23:49Speaker 05

  Got permission, you know, to reveal some countries. And they said, could you do this in Syria, Libya, or Yemen? And it took me back and I, at that point, I realized that, okay, these are not, these are not hedge fund. These are not hedgies from Stanford, Connecticut.

• 24:09Jack Murphy?

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• 25:36Jack Murphy?

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• 25:41Jack Murphy?

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• 26:24Jack Murphy?

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• 27:06Jack Murphy?

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• 29:14Speaker 05

  And that began this long relationship with JSOC because they were they were referents from the Joint Intelligence Brigade. The one guy, John, was troop troop commander or something like that.

• 29:30Speaker 05

  And they were in the biz, they were there scouting for new data sets that would give them fidelity into these war zones. For pick your reason for targeting. Can we better understand what is going on in this, you know, this, this, this um, Polygon area?

• 29:52Speaker 05

  Do we, can we define how many women, children, who is interacting with this location?

• 30:00Speaker 05

  And that kicked off a proof of concept which you mentioned called locomotive, which was the combination of location and motive.

• 30:10Speaker 05

  I came up with that.

• 30:13Speaker 05

  Because I at the time had a 10 year old daughter and I said, I need some, I need a name to call this thing. And I can't keep saying location motive because that's just hard to say. So come up with something.

• 30:29Speaker 05

  And this was pre chat GPT days and like a minute later, she's like, locomotive.

• 30:35Jack Murphy?

  She came up with that. It's awesome.

• 30:36Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, um, and so.

• 30:41Speaker 05

  I talk about innovation because this is really sort of a two tier story. Um, because we were innovating. But it wasn't a, an innovation initiative. It was, we have hard targets and we need fidelity. Let's get after this. Um, and so it wasn't something where we were just out of the gate. You know, all, uh, you know, fireworks and bells and whistles. There were some struggles. There was a lot of entrenched sort of attitudes like from SIGINTERS who. Believe that the only way to get this kind of data was to.

• 31:23Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 31:24Speaker 05

  You know, intercept it, which, you know, you can, you can fly around, you can drive around, you can intercept a lot of stuff trying to, you know, invoking yourself as a cell tower. And if you own the airspace, yeah, you can do that at scale.

• 31:37Speaker 05

  And I had to repeatedly say, as I was being called a snake oil salesman in a charlatan, like to my face. I would have to say, I didn't hack, engineer, intercept, or steal this data. I bought it. And that took a long time for the community to get their head around like, okay, so. That's not intelligence. You bought it. Like, we need to go and spy on people and we need to intercept in order for it to be an int.

• 32:03Jack Murphy?

  Exactly. Yeah. And I think they struggled with OSINT for quite a while. Um, but for that reason, they're like, well, it's not classified. What is it? What do we do with it?

• 32:13Speaker 05

  Yeah. Same, same, same deal. And this is, you know, where they, they get wrapped around the axle trying to define what some of these things are. Who cares? It's data that's useful. It's data that's useful to the mission. So, um. Figure out where it fits. Now, I will say. That.

• 32:36Speaker 05

  In some of these, like there was, we were on the clock. You're at JSOC.

• 32:41Jack Murphy?

  So you're brought in as a contractor.

• 32:43Speaker 05

  I'm brought in as a.

• 32:43Jack Murphy?

  Show us that you can make this work in three months or something.

• 32:47Speaker 05

  I would, yeah, I had a little longer than three months, but you know how it is at JSOC. Like you've got one shot, you know, like, and they are unforgiving and they are hard customer. Right. Um, and so, you know, this wasn't something where it was like, I can show you where all your HVTs are tomorrow. It, it doesn't work that way. But that was sort of the expectation, like, oh, this is, this is magic. So trying to build a use case that they could, they could understand, like, you need to understand that we're not really going after the HVT. We're going after the areas, his centers of gravity to look and better understand what's going on.

• 33:29Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 33:30Speaker 05

  I needed a use case to show them that. So, uh, one night, uh, as I'm on the clock and like, I don't want to blow this.

• 33:44Speaker 05

  I draw a geo fence around an area on Fort Bragg that is not JSOC, not Fort Bragg large, a particular location at Fort Bragg, which is not, you know, it's anybody, everybody knows where, um, that compound is. And when you look down on it and you see all the red roofs, you know what you're looking at. So I geo fenced that area.

• 34:13Speaker 05

  I should also say that I'm doing all of this in a highly secure

• 34:19Speaker 05

  area in between my master bedroom and my daughter's bedroom in my home office.

• 34:27Speaker 05

  Uh, draw the geo fence around the Delta compound, hit play to see where the devices go, where they were before, where they were after, and.

• 34:40Speaker 05

  In Syria, I get a cluster of devices.

• 34:43Jack Murphy?

  That correlate with what you were seeing at Fort Bragg?

• 34:45Speaker 05

  Because they were there in Syria at this facility in Syria. They were at Fort Bragg. They have they have consistent dwell time between these two places. And I pulled it back a little further and was able to track the devices that started at Fort Bragg as my seed location. Now they're in this place in Syria making cement.

• 35:13Speaker 05

  And I bring them, I track these devices to residences in a town called Southern Pines, North Carolina. Now, if you are part of the Fort Bragg community, you know that Southern Pines is a bedroom community where if you can afford to live there because you make a little extra money.

• 35:32Jack Murphy?

  I'm surprised you didn't just put a geo fence around O'Donnell's. And

• 35:37Speaker 05

  That

• 35:39Speaker 05

  That would have been too easy.

• 35:42Speaker 05

  And I'm bringing up, I'm showing, I'm coming up with the homes of operators who are at this, at, at, what we call LCF, Lafarge Cement Factory.

• 35:56Speaker 05

  And I'm like, this is interesting. I had no a priori knowledge. I wasn't looking.

• 35:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you weren't read on to what they were doing over there.

• 36:01Speaker 05

  I wasn't, I did not, I was not looking for a French companies, a French conglomerate cement facility in Syria, nor was I even aware that Southern Pines had any connection to Delta.

• 36:18Speaker 05

  I kind of package it up. I don't really know what I have here.

• 36:24Speaker 05

  Drive down to Bragg. I think, I think you should see something. I don't know what it is. And I've got my PowerPoints and my handouts.

• 36:34Speaker 05

  And

• 36:36Speaker 05

  It's one of those moments where if I had known, it's the kind of thing where you say, do I have your fucking attention now? Because this was not an overt forward operating base. And the residences and who they belonged to, they were like, I showed pictures and people were like, that's Sergeant Major's house.

• 36:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 05

  That's, you know, that's.

• 37:02Jack Murphy?

  I, I imagine this brief went over like a lead balloon.

• 37:05Speaker 05

  That was like, room gets cleared. Uh, you know, my, my badge went from, you know, yellow to black or some, you know, it just, it, everything got a little bit more intense at that point. And I got an audience with CG and sort of explained to him how I did it, what I was doing. Signers weren't as, as hostile towards me from that point forward, but that was sort of the moment when, like the next meeting that I did briefing a much larger group, my contact down there introduces me as, you know, he's like, we've got the subject matter expert in this stuff.

• 37:48Speaker 05

  And I'm looking around like, who? Is there somebody else? And it was like, oh, that's me. And so over the course of 10 years, got involved with signature management, identity management, the various working groups, whether it's up north, down south, at the beach, in Tampa, all over the place, trying to sort of corral this signature management problem, this ubiquitous technical surveillance problem that you've had really great guests on before talking about it. And, you know, the community sort of approaches it from the perspective of, well,

• 38:29Speaker 05

  we just need to educate everybody about this risk and, and really overload them with ad tech stuff and really get them to understand what's going on. But we only have, you're an operator, you only have so many cognitive cycles to process things. It's like, tell me what I need to know. Tell me how we defeat this. And for the last 10 years, I've been explaining, this isn't something you defeat. You are up against, before we even talk about an adversary, you're up against an eight trillion dollar duopoly, Google and Apple. They support a nearly trillion dollar advertising ecosystem.

• 39:14Speaker 05

  They are both unified in a mission to predict behavior of humans at planetary scale. So, right out of the gate, you are trying to defeat nearly 10 trillion dollars of market cap with your mission center and three dudes who learned about ad tech three days ago.

• 39:34Jack Murphy?

  A leviathan.

• 39:34Speaker 05

  Yes. So, right out of the gate, the deck is stacked. This is not something you defeat. This is something that you figure out how to operate within. And, yes, tradecraft, yes, the things we do out in the field, cannot hide inside the embassy, cannot hide because of UTS, we have to figure out where are the seams where we can operate, where are the gaps that we can operate. And I think we're at a point now where the community has stopped referring to it as, referring to UTS as this existential threat, which, if you think about words, existential means, unless you solve this, your reason for existing is no longer.

• 40:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you're done.

• 40:18Speaker 05

  You're done. So, I wouldn't describe it as an existential threat. I would describe it as, you know, an operating condition that we need to figure out. And there are, there are fewer mitigations that one can apply. It's more about interventions. And the number one question that I get from the operational community is how do I get myself out of commercial data? And if we think about it from a first principles perspective, all of this risk starts with the devices we carry and all of the data that they emit.

• 40:59Speaker 05

  That tell a story about who we are. And particularly for the operational community, it's not so much what you're exposing when you're on the X or doing an act because, you know, those are, those are different scenarios. It's everything that happens when you're home, when you're just, you know, like you're, you're, you're working your CIA and you're working, you're working headquarters, but you're running around DC, going to sites, doing stuff, meeting with people.

• 41:33Speaker 05

  If I'm an adversary and I'm interested in that cohort, I'm very interested in what you're doing when you're not on the X or engaged in an operational act. All of that is very useful information. And

• 41:50Speaker 05

  when we think about UTS, the shift, and I hate to be somebody that's like AI is going to change the world, but the shift that is underway is, I mean firstly, you know, UTS, yeah, a lot of cameras and hardware and infrastructure, all that stuff.

• 42:10Speaker 05

  But I'm not convinced that our primary adversary has developed an integration scheme where all of this is manifesting itself in a minority report like environment. They collect a lot of data. They being the CCP is who I'm talking about.

• 42:27Jack Murphy?

  Right. But do they have like an op-son where they're correlating all of this?

• 42:30Speaker 05

  And, and in there, if you think about them culturally, they believe that I'm collecting a lot. That means I have, I have a lot of intelligence. And they're collecting a bunch of raw data.

• 42:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 05

  You know, and what are they doing with it?

• 42:49Speaker 05

  I'm not convinced that they have, you know, developed this, this prescient.

• 42:54Jack Murphy?

  The panopticon.

• 42:55Speaker 05

  The panopticon, but they are collecting. But what AI will do, and just think about your own use of some of these platforms. If you think about all of the data that is on your device and you think about it from the perspective of an, of an operator, case officer. The population, I'm going to use this example because this is possible. The population in the United States of people who power down their phone three or four times a week, twice a week, who power down their phone at all

• 43:33Speaker 05

  is very, very small. You leave your phone on at night, you're not powering it down

• 43:40Speaker 05

  during the day.

• 43:46Speaker 05

  The way in which apps are collecting data on your device. You've installed an app and you've basically given it permission to interrogate the entire device. Do you know Apple, the privacy device? Apple gives its consumers two selectors to suppress data in its privacy, in its privacy settings. The ad ID, you can click that off and location data. Those are the two selectors that Apple permits its consumers to invoke privacy.

• 44:24Speaker 05

  So you have an app on your phone. Maybe it's not collecting your ad ID because you're not allowing that. And maybe it can't get your GPS because you've turned that off. So it's going to look at all of the other telemetry that your device is collecting. It's going to pull it,

• 44:44Speaker 05

  prepare it to exfil off your device. And when it does that, and that's a very normal behavior between an app. It needs to exchange data for functionality, but it's also looking at all sorts of other extraneous components that have nothing to do with functionality. And it's pulling it, it encrypts it before it transmits.

• 45:08Jack Murphy?

  So it uses my phone as an encryption device?

• 45:13Speaker 05

  And you have no, you have no, you have no awareness of what it's collected, what it's done, what it's and why. So if you are somebody in the community and you're powering down your phone two or three times a week, and that is anomalous to the rest of the working population globally, let alone Washington DC, but in Washington DC, if I'm interested because I have awareness that there's policy that you can get off the internet that says on your way, one mile away from a black site or whatever you want to call it, power down your phone. That is, that is doctrine. If I'm interested in everybody in the DC area that does that two or three times a week, I now have

• 45:58Jack Murphy?

  Everyone.

• 45:59Speaker 05

  500 targets, 300 targets, 50 targets. And that, instead of looking at the population of DC and trying to figure out who's in the business, now I have the probability of who's in the business.

• 46:13Jack Murphy?

  I mean, they deal with it overseas too. Like if the bad guys catch you, you know, putting your phone in a Faraday bag or something like who the fuck does that?

• 46:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:22Jack Murphy?

  You know, a normal tourist isn't behaving like that.

• 46:24Speaker 05

  Right. So this is something that's interesting. And so, and this is just on the commercial side. So company will, let's, let's just, let's use a real scenario here. You, you travel overseas, you're traveling with a special phone or a phone that's your travel phone. So there's nothing, let's just assume there is nothing about you that anybody could glean from your phone. And it's a normal phone. It's not a OP phone. It's, it's a normal phone, but it's your travel phone.

• 46:59Jack Murphy?

  Your work phone.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  So you check into your hotel and the hotel has, knows nothing about you. You're not part of the rewards program. What the hotel or the adversary will do is sort of a cold start. What do cohorts that have come in from the States who stay at this type of hotel, what do we expect them to do when they are in our country?

• 47:26Speaker 05

  Let's model that and be able to do that while they're here looking for these anomalous behaviors. So if you think about, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to defeat UTS, I'm gonna try to defeat the machine with a travel phone, or they're, they're looking at it from that perspective and they're ahead of you. So how do you, how do you function? How do you do, how do you do your job without feeling like somebody is constantly watching you? Because they are. That is part of the, you have to accept that.

• 48:01Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 48:02Speaker 05

  Observation is ambient. You're gonna be observed. You are not gonna go black. You can, you can do an SDR for 12 hours. They're not, you know, they're, they're just gonna replay the tape. And they're gonna let AI look at, show me everybody who went, you know, walking around for eight hours and, you know, did these types of stops. Show me all of those devices. That's the power of AI from an inference capability, and that all comes from the devices we are carrying. So it doesn't have to be an overt, you know, uh, signature. It can be a very non-obvious, very slight, subtle permutation in that data that is, that

• 48:46Speaker 05

  exceeds the baseline of expectation. And that, to me, is, that's what UTS is going to look like, because that's what the commercial advertising world is doing. So the, the primitives are already available. Now we just need to sort of change the names to make it easier.

• 49:05Jack Murphy?

  So if you're trying to stay off the grid, so to speak, I mean, how do you work with this technology or flow in that technology while not pinging up on someone's radar?

• 49:15Speaker 05

  So, a couple of different ways of doing that. So if we think about it from a first principles perspective, the number one thing that we need to figure out, if commercial data, if telemetry is the problem, we need to figure out how to limit the amount of telemetry that we are making available by virtue of the phones we carry. Like de facto, let's cut out all the bullshit about persona management and signature management and all that. Let's figure out how to reduce the amount of data that we are willingly give.

• 49:46Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 49:47Speaker 05

  And that doesn't, that's not something that just an operator or into an I O should be. That is like a human dignity issue.

• 49:55Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 49:56Speaker 05

  And, and this capability is something that whether you're, you know, in the community or not, this is, this is privacy. Being able to carry a phone that works, functions and does all of the great things that phones do without it being this constant.

• 50:17Jack Murphy?

  Spy device.

• 50:17Speaker 05

  Spy device.

• 50:18Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 05

  So that's the first thing that we need to tackle from a posture of what do we accept as humans about what we're willing to, to share? And you wanna sort of tune up my, my adrenaline, tell me, well, I have nothing to hide, so I don't care. Okay, that assumes you know who's looking. Ask Lindsey Graham whether, Lindsey, I don't know whether you all are, I'm gonna attack him a little bit here because Lindsey Graham was telling us all back in the early days of the Patriot Act that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.

• 51:02Jack Murphy?

  You think he's got something to worry about?

• 51:04Speaker 05

  Until Arctic Frost and the FBI decided to pull his CDRs. And he decided, well, that's bullshit, I'm gonna sue you, $500,000 per incident. Mister, I have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry about the government, the NSA collecting your data, blah, blah, blah. Okay. You know, not for me, but for thee.

• 51:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 05

  Um, and this just, this is, this just happened a couple of months ago when he was told, Cash Patel disclosed that, I think it was eight senators were, were wrapped up in the Arctic Frost poll. And, uh, you know, the indignation and the outrage was, was palpable. And it's different, like, there was a warrant to go pull their data. But at the same time, Mister Senator, if you've got nothing to hide, what, what do you care? Maybe you have something to hide.

• 51:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, a little cautious about politicians telling us things like that.

• 52:03Speaker 05

  It, it's just, it's, it's the kind of thing where, um,

• 52:09Speaker 05

  we talk about this, the risk of data and adversaries.

• 52:15Speaker 05

  But who's the adversary? Is it, is it an advertiser? Who, do I want an advertiser to have this intimate knowledge of who I am and what I'm doing? What does that, how does that benefit me? And the more, you know, the more we allow convenience, these frictionless sort of technology interfaces to make it really easy for us, every, every point where friction has been alleviated is a point where your data now is available because we've, we've create, we've, we've eliminated those fire breaks.

• 52:56Jack Murphy?

  You know, I, as you're talking, I just got me thinking, I mean, when I think of ubiquitous surveillance and the panopticon and all this sort of thing, I think big countries, United States, China, Russia, but as you point out, you bought this data on the commercial market. That, that means that countries like Vietnam, Rwanda could be operationalizing this data against us potentially.

• 53:23Speaker 05

  A hundred percent. Because there's, there are no guardrails. There's not a, you don't need to, you know, send a note to the.

• 53:31Jack Murphy?

  What, you've got something to hide, Mike?

• 53:32Speaker 05

  Yeah. There's no, there are no guardrails. Anybody can do it. Uh, it's gotten a little tighter and, you know, companies have had some headline exposure by selling data to, you know, bail bondsmen and the private investigator.

• 53:47Jack Murphy?

  ICE recently.

• 53:48Speaker 05

  That kind, yep, absolutely. Um, and this is, this is, this is the hard question because we of course want our law enforcement to have every available tool at their disposal to go after criminals, bad guys.

• 54:06Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  That has been overs, that's being overseen by a judge and, and it is lawful. But when it becomes too easy to be able to look deeply into a potential suspect's life, we've got a slippery slope.

• 54:27Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 54:28Speaker 05

  And, and I've worked with one of my, one of the early customers advisor was the FBI. Another special agent, street agent, not a bureaucrat, street agent, the kind of guy that you want, when you think of an FBI agent, this is what, you know, six, five marine can recite the constitution, you know, came up in the FBI's father was an agent, but, you know, it's what you, you know, it's how we develop faith in our, these institutions. When that faith is broken, then it becomes difficult for me to say, we should, you know,

• 55:10Speaker 05

  this should be a no brainer, that they have all of these tools because we know, I know that there is abuse and corner cutting.

• 55:20Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 55:21Speaker 05

  And that is a problem for me.

• 55:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I can definitely see the double edged sword. Like on one hand, you want them to have all the tools to like catch internet predators and stuff like that.

• 55:31Speaker 05

  We can all agree on that.

• 55:32Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. But then there's, you know, when you're taking those shortcuts and you're not getting a judicially signed warrant, it becomes an issue.

• 55:41Speaker 05

  So if you think about it this way, if you were in the DC area around January 6th, 2020, you there with your family, you weren't, you weren't near the Capitol, but you were there with your family, you bought some souvenirs or you used a credit card to get into the Smithsonian, chances are the FBI had a look at you.

• 56:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 05

  They eliminated you probably quickly, but they were looking at you and that data was provided willfully by various banks. Did you know? Did you authorize it? And that gets into the who owns the data. It's not really your data. The credit card data isn't yours. Your cell phone data is not yours.

• 56:26Jack Murphy?

  So let's talk a little bit about how the program evolved from Locomotive to Vizer. What is Vizer? What was the next incarnation?

• 56:33Speaker 05

  Yep, so Locomotive was, think about Locomotive as a proof of concept where it was very limited and that's where I was trying to just demonstrate how this could work as a capability. Proved that and we upgraded it to something called Vizer, Virtual Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance. Kind of a stick in the face to the SIGENers who didn't believe that this was even possible.

• 57:04Speaker 05

  So we were doing ISR-type work virtually. I was buying the location data. And if you think about mobile location data at the time, your device was probably giving an event, a location event, once every 12 seconds. So not quite as persistent as a TTL device stuck on the back of a car in terms of like seeing the routes, but pretty close in terms of being able to see how people were moving about.

• 57:41Speaker 05

  And so the program was designed to be an inter-agency program. JSOC was the primary sponsor, but it became an inter-agency program where we were selling this data set, we were buying the data sets.

• 57:56Speaker 05

  And the license for that data gave me rights to make it available to the entire US government. So I didn't have to have one agency buying it. It was like one purchase. It was very, very efficient and a great deal for the taxpayer. And we just, we created a, basically a government cloud environment where data would come in from our suppliers. We would move it over to a classified cloud environment. And we had, at the full, we had seven different agencies participating.

• 58:39Speaker 05

  They had to fund and they had to pay, but if you think like, here's the budget, everybody had to pitch in. Um, it was, you know, kind of an interagency working group and, um, but it was designed to be efficient so that we weren't buying the same ad ID seventy different times, which is what, how we're doing it now.

• 59:02Jack Murphy?

  And I, I imagine these agencies are all using this ad tech data that you're purchasing in different ways to accomplish different things.

• 59:10Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 59:10Jack Murphy?

  What's sort of like the difference between how like the FBI versus CIA versus JSOC will use these data sets?

• 59:17Speaker 05

  So my first case that I worked for the Bureau was Stephen Paddock, the Vegas shooter.

• 59:24Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:26Speaker 05

  Uh, there was questions about possible transnational terrorism because his wife was Filipino.

• 59:32Jack Murphy?

  I remember this.

• 59:33Speaker 05

  He had traveled to the Philippines.

• 59:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 59:35Speaker 05

  Um, and so we did a workup on Stephen Paddock.

• 59:40Jack Murphy?

  He was very like opaque, very kind of like mysterious.

• 59:43Speaker 05

  Very opaque.

• 59:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 59:45Speaker 05

  I, I, I know that there are a lot of, like, I don't know what his motive, I don't know that. I don't think anybody really does.

• 59:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  I don't believe that there was a conspiracy because there were Saudis in the hotel because there are lots of Saudis in Vegas all the time.

• 1:00:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Speaker 05

  But I don't mean to stir up your listeners.

• 1:00:05Jack Murphy?

  No, no, I mean, I'm, I'm interested in like what the results.

• 1:00:08Speaker 05

  So Stephen Paddock, uh, Stephen Paddock had two residences in Vegas, two, two properties. So we were looking at those, saw no unusual co-location, co-presence. We would see like the UPS delivery guy, the FedEx guy.

• 1:00:26Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:27Speaker 05

  Uh, his, he had a landscape. We had one device that was showing up at both properties.

• 1:00:35Speaker 05

  It was his landscape. It was his, the guy that cut his grass. But we looked at him hard because that was the only, we're seeing this. He lives in a kind of a, you know, potential high crime area. What's this all about? It was the guy that cuts his grass. This was very early and so you have Bureau analysts, like I'm sort of over their shoulder looking at this stuff and all of a sudden somebody's like, holy shit.

• 1:01:09Speaker 05

  There was a device that they were looking at that had also spent time at Redstone Arsenal.

• 1:01:16Speaker 05

  Where they, where you learn how to make a bomb or, or.

• 1:01:21Jack Murphy?

  And it was connected to paddock in some capacity.

• 1:01:24Speaker 05

  I was, I was like, this is, this is, if this is what it is. Wait, wait a second. Let's have a look. Look at the date. Look at the time. It was your own EOD guy. Because now that same device, like he's in, he was in Texas. Like, is there anything going on in Texas? Yeah, there's a letter bomber. Like, that's your guy. So you have to watch what you're doing because this.

• 1:01:54Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:01:55Speaker 05

  Kind of stuff, like you're seeing it, you want to find.

• 1:01:58Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:01:59Speaker 05

  Just take a breath and this is not, there is no, there's no connection here with somebody that's got intimate explosive experience. This is your own technician, your own EOD guy that probably didn't clear the house before the rest of the forensics team came in. So those are the types of, of things. Um, from a law enforcement perspective, ad tech is not the best. It's not the best use of that data because law enforcement will come in and they will say, we have an incident that occurred on this date at this time. Show me everything that was there when that happened.

• 1:02:43Speaker 05

  And that requires an app to be functioning, to be broadcasting, to be pinging location. It's a very treacherous terrain to try to put a device at a specific location at a specific time. Unlike when you're doing tower dumps, you're getting like a range.

• 1:03:05Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:03:06Speaker 05

  Um, this is, this is why it's not the best use case for incident resolution and investigation. If you're looking at, show me, I've done a lot of like MS-13.

• 1:03:18Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think.

• 1:03:34Speaker 05

  I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:03:44Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:04:15Speaker 05

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com slash parents to learn more. Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat.

• 1:04:57Speaker 05

  With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Teen type work. Show me that type of cohort, where they go, what are their patterns of life? No different than if you're looking for.

• 1:05:21Jack Murphy?

  It's more of a big data tool.

• 1:05:23Speaker 05

  It is, it is. Take a big look at the cohort, where they live, what are their centers of gravity? What don't we know about where they're going on some kind of regular basis? It's excellent for that type of, for that type of work. But to try to go and like locate a device at a centroid, you know, very difficult to do. And agencies have tried to do it.

• 1:05:52Speaker 05

  And it's, they've sort of come up like, well, it doesn't work. No, it's not the right application for that type of stuff.

• 1:06:00Speaker 05

  And then.

• 1:06:03Speaker 05

  But on the, on the, um, on the intelligence side, a lot of, a lot of focus on our own community, OPSEC, signature management, help us understand what our risks are, how do we improve. Um, and then in the, in the ISIS days, a lot of targeting there on some, some pretty high value.

• 1:06:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So I was going to ask you about that. Look, what was the year that Lokomotive got started?

• 1:06:29Speaker 05

  So this was, we're going back 2016.

• 1:06:31Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:06:32Speaker 05

  And it was fully, full operational capability was around 2018.

• 1:06:37Jack Murphy?

  And so ISIS is a thing at this moment. This is a big priority for the United States government. And I remember someone telling me a story about early on in the war when we went and wiped out the Coruscant group, like very quickly with CIA intelligence airstrikes and, and did the deal. My understanding of that was one of the first times that open source intelligence was really used. And it was because there was a bunch of younger analysts in these offices that were like, hey, maybe we can do this and this and that. And sure enough, it worked.

• 1:07:09Speaker 05

  Yeah. Um, that was where they were tagging pictures. Uh, you had, you had.

• 1:07:14Jack Murphy?

  They were, they were going after those guys on Facebook and stuff. It was pretty funny.

• 1:07:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Jack Murphy?

  Um, so you get it there, 2016, 2018, it's really up and running. Um, kind of like, what are you seeing as far as like the evolution of the program? And like, how are the, the guys, boots on the ground, kind of take into it?

• 1:07:35Speaker 05

  So adoption or, hey, can we look at, can we get some of that ad tech stuff from, from the operator, from the unit level was, we got great feedback on that because I'm giving them the type, I'm giving them like slant information. I've got women, children, based upon the apps that they're using, the times.

• 1:07:56Jack Murphy?

  Holy shit. Okay.

• 1:07:58Speaker 05

  You know, not giving names. I don't have names, but I can tell you before you.

• 1:08:06Speaker 05

  As you are about to assault this compound,

• 1:08:10Speaker 05

  where the guy cried like a baby, that compound, I can tell you how many women and children there are before you begin, at the time you're about to, you're about to engage, I'm giving you updated information, like you've got anywhere between 12 and 18, I was off by one, noncombatants in this compound. I was off by one because one was with him and went down with him as a noncombatant. But I'm giving that type of fidelity at that ground level, which, you know, you're an operator, you're, you're happy if somebody can tell you if the door fucking opens this way or that way.

• 1:08:54Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:08:54Speaker 05

  I'm telling you how many women and children are in this compound you're about to assault, so.

• 1:09:00Jack Murphy?

  And I imagine when the operators get ground truth and they go and hit the target and like, wow, this was like very accurate, actually, that they probably took to it, I would think, yeah.

• 1:09:10Speaker 05

  I mean, it's, again, because you know this, our guys don't want to engage innocent people. They want, they want to know if they need to back off a little bit or give some time for them to get out. Because that's the type of people they are. They're not going in looking to just wipe every, so.

• 1:09:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, if there's no civilians on target, maybe the answer is a JDAM for that one.

• 1:09:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, why, exactly. But this is the type of thing where, and this is something Americans should know, we have a very capable unit that chose to not pause, but just, hey, if there, if there is, if there is information that helps us configure how we are assaulting this, or that we need to give the TARP more time on the, on the, on the megaphone.

• 1:10:06Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 05

  Come out or you will be killed, you know, if we need to do that, we're going to do that. We're not just going in guns blazing because, you know, there were like four children under the age of four. And they all, they all came out. And as the noncombatants are coming out, they are, they are giving ground truth. They are confirming where, where he is, what he's got and who he's with. So those types of things were the, you know, and again, I'm doing this in my highly secure operating, my, my, my, my forward deployed talk in Vienna, Virginia.

• 1:10:42Jack Murphy?

  I remember around this time hearing some consternation that using OSINT methods, which I'm guessing that was you, that they had identified like hundreds of targets in Syria. And there's a lot of frustration. It was not because of the technology, more the policy side that the guys felt like they're being kind of held back from action targets.

• 1:11:03Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, and this is, this is an excellent point. From a policy perspective, because the people who make policy don't have a fucking clue.

• 1:11:14Jack Murphy?

  What? Really?

• 1:11:17Speaker 05

  They don't, they're making, like, we're working on, they're working on, they're working on, you know, how do we, how do we define commercial data from open source data? We're beyond that.

• 1:11:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:31Speaker 05

  Our adversary is well beyond that. So I think if we, if you just look at the, at the way in which TikTok was handled, we just don't have a political, a policy class.

• 1:11:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I mean, the average age of our members of Congress are, you know, almost nursing home ready. No fault to them. Everyone ages, but.

• 1:11:51Speaker 05

  They're making, they're, they're doing reels about the, you know, disparaging TikTok on TikTok. It's just, it just doesn't make any sense. But I think that we are in a, the environment, the operating environment is highly technical now. So we, we need people at the policy level who, they don't have to be experts in this stuff.

• 1:12:14Jack Murphy?

  But they have to listen to the brief.

• 1:12:15Speaker 05

  Understand what, what they're dealing with.

• 1:12:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Speaker 05

  And I think that.

• 1:12:21Jack Murphy?

  And by comparison, the military average age is very young, which helps, I think, with this sort of thing.

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  I will tell you, when I was, when I would be briefing, I would look and if my room were mostly NCOs, I was good. I knew that it was going to be a productive brief. When it wasn't NCOs.

• 1:12:46Speaker 05

  And there were, there were others in the, in the brief, I knew that it was gonna be a shit show.

• 1:12:54Jack Murphy?

  With the Sharpies on the map and.

• 1:12:56Speaker 05

  I mean, and it, it never failed, like, you know, and I, I was never in the military, so I don't do all that sir shit. You know, so like some fucking captain is gonna come in and, and start sort of pushing around, pushing his rank. Telling me, you know, how these things should be. And I'm like, that's just, that's firstly, not a thing. Captain. Secondly, I don't really, you know, where are you going with this? Because you're, you're describing fantasy when this is not fantasy. I've had those moments.

• 1:13:31Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Army officers don't like to be told they're wrong.

• 1:13:36Speaker 05

  It, it, it was, it is a, it is, the culture I, I feel for the sergeant majors.

• 1:13:43Jack Murphy?

  Thoughts and prayers.

• 1:13:44Speaker 05

  Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, make sure your, your helmet is on forward and your, your nods are, you know, those things that you need to be seeing this way shouldn't be on the face in the back of your head. Um, uh, but I think that as a, when we think about data, just as a, from a national perspective, we have zero posture in terms of privacy. We have, we have lots of privacy laws on the books. We have a law that's, you know, the do not sell my data to bad guys law. But if you look at what it protects or what it controls, it's like, yeah, that might've had some teeth 10 years ago, but today,

• 1:14:27Speaker 05

  it's, it's, I can be in compliance and still do everything that you have legislated as illegal. Um, and I think that that's just because we have people that don't quite understand and don't get into the weeds of this, whereas, I don't, I don't naval gaze China, but their technocrats understand the value of data. Because their data does not leave their shore unless a guy like me walks it out within a brown paperback. I mean, that's the truth.

• 1:15:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:03Speaker 05

  There's no reciprocity. They don't participate. We don't, we are not getting WeChat data the way that they're getting Instagram data.

• 1:15:13Jack Murphy?

  And I have even like, I mean, when you find out about hackers that are selling hacked data sets and things like that, and I'm not in that world, but I mean, I've heard a lot about like hacked data sets out of Russia, out of Iran, actually haven't heard any out of China. But again, I'm not, that's not my, my area. So.

• 1:15:34Speaker 05

  They'll, their, their laws have teeth.

• 1:15:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you're going to the Gulag.

• 1:15:40Speaker 05

  You're not, you're never going to be seen again.

• 1:15:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:42Speaker 05

  Um, so there, the truth is that there are black markets where you can, you can get.

• 1:15:48Jack Murphy?

  Some stuff.

• 1:15:49Speaker 05

  Some stuff. Um, but that, I mean, that's almost like we need to have case officers who know how to do that.

• 1:15:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, go buy it.

• 1:15:59Speaker 05

  We need to have NOCs who know how to show up at a data conference and.

• 1:16:03Jack Murphy?

  It reminds me of when we had Jim Lawler on the show, who was big at interdicting terrorists who are trying to buy physio material and trying to build a nuclear weapon.

• 1:16:15Speaker 05

  He's famous.

• 1:16:16Jack Murphy?

  And I, I believe he teaches a whole course, actually. I'd, I'd have to ask Jim about this. I believe he teaches a course, teaching intelligence officers how to like attain a certain level of technical know-how to be able to talk to scientists and technical people in foreign countries. Um, and I, I remember him saying something that, uh, you know, engineers love to tell you about their job and how it works.

• 1:16:37Speaker 05

  I was just going to say that. Yeah. There's nothing, an engineer will not suffer somebody who is, comes from the soft sciences, you know? Um, but to, yeah, to be able to navigate those, those markets.

• 1:16:51Jack Murphy?

  You have to have fluency in that language.

• 1:16:54Speaker 05

  You have to, you have to be able to know the difference between, you know?

• 1:16:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I wouldn't.

• 1:16:59Speaker 05

  And, and that's, and that's important. Um, and that's kind of that skill set. Uh, who was the, you know, we need PhDs who can win a bar fight.

• 1:17:09Jack Murphy?

  Right. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:17:11Speaker 05

  Whoever that.

• 1:17:11Jack Murphy?

  Donovan.

• 1:17:12Speaker 05

  Donovan. Yes. Um, we need PhDs who can win a bar fight and write a little bit of code.

• 1:17:19Jack Murphy?

  It's also interesting, I think, it, this combination of high tech and low tech that we've kind of touched on a little bit. Um, but you know, using this ad tech and, and all the other cool things we have, uh, to get data. Um, but then. It sounds like in some cases, at least, that's really providing a vector to put a guy on the ground and do that terminal guidance, you know, not necessarily it's a lethal operation, it might be an intelligence operation, but I mean, do you see that kind of being like the future of intelligence work?

• 1:17:49Speaker 05

  I think it's a component. I, it's hard to say. I think all of this. When we think about a target and how we develop that target, I think that the data that is available, whether it's, and this could even be in, in sort of target spotting, everything should run through a first level, you know, what, what do we know, what can we understand about the motives, intentions, the philosophy of this individual or group of individuals

• 1:18:30Speaker 05

  before we even, before we do the bump, before we engage.

• 1:18:35Jack Murphy?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:18:37Speaker 05

  Or if we're going, if we've already identified this person and we need to have his good friend be a peer, how do we align our, our people with this target so that we're, that relationship, it's almost like a dating app where the algorithm has said, you two are a match. I, when I was needing to sort of demonstrate value, so I'm a hockey player, playing men's

• 1:19:18Speaker 05

  leagues around DC, and just as a test, I wanted to see if anybody from the Russian embassy plays in men's league hockey. And sure enough, I find three Russians from the Russian embassy who go to my rink to, to do something called lunch puck. It's like 12 o'clock, you just go out and you sort of, you split up everybody and you just sort of play, right? Lunch puck. And they're at my rink. So.

• 1:19:53Speaker 05

  And I know that they're there, you know, a couple of times a week. It don't, it's sporadic. Sometimes it's a Monday, sometimes it's a Thursday. So I went for three days and on the second day, I'm in the locker room with three Russians from the embassy, putting on our skates. And I'm like, are you guys Russian? You know, and I, you could smell the cigarette smoke before they even got into the locker room. But here I am, there to, to be at that point in time where they are.

• 1:20:22Jack Murphy?

  Right. The technology helped you.

• 1:20:24Speaker 05

  Technology enabled.

• 1:20:25Jack Murphy?

  Put you in the room.

• 1:20:25Speaker 05

  Put me, who, and I know how to put on hockey equipment. I know how to lace my skates. I know how to talk in the locker room. Like I, there was no, you know, like, who is this guy with all the new equipment who can't skate, who just so happens to be, you know, really interested in me being Russian. Um, I had been to Moscow playing hockey. So I was, I was able to be very conversational, build rapport, but I knew they were going to be there. It only took me two days.

• 1:20:54Jack Murphy?

  No, that, that exactly answers the question that I was asking. That combination of high tech and low tech.

• 1:20:58Speaker 05

  And it's, it's, you know, why, why wouldn't we want to try to do that sort of matchmaking?

• 1:21:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Why, why wouldn't you use the full breadth of our capabilities that we've developed?

• 1:21:08Speaker 05

  And those are the kinds of things that we can look at, you know, the, the entire cadre of, of case officers. And we need something, somebody with specific skill, somebody that's got a double E or a chemical and, you know, he's got a chemical degree.

• 1:21:25Jack Murphy?

  Oh, electrical engineer.

• 1:21:26Speaker 05

  A double, you know, it's, we need, we need that type of person to go and let's be able to put them into the mix faster and not wait for, or just do it based upon, well, you know, now he's going off to this post and, you know, he's, has, there's no, there's no connectivity to who we're, who we're, who we're going after. That's the kind of thing that all this data is really good to get us ahead of the game.

• 1:21:59Jack Murphy?

  Hey everyone. I want to tell you about my new novel, The Most Dangerous Man, out in June. It is a novel about a regimental reconnaissance company soldier who gets kidnapped while he's on a mission to West Africa. When he wakes up, he finds that he is now being hunted for sport by a group of tech billionaires through the wilds of West Africa. This book is based on stories that I heard over the years about safari guides taking wealthy clients hunting for poachers on game reserves in Africa. I took that and I took a century old short story, The Most Dangerous Game, and modernized it. And the product is this book, which I think will feel contemporary and resonate with audiences today. Thank you and please check it out.

• 1:22:48Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:23:03Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:23:14Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you are not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:23:45Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like Setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com PARENTS to learn more.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:24:50Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ushkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:25:05Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:25:16Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:25:47Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  com slash parents to learn more. Cash flow crunch on deck small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it cover seasonal dips manage payroll restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat with flexible draws transparent pricing and control over repayment get funded quickly and confidently apply today at on deck.com funds could be available as soon as tomorrow depending on certain loan attributes your business loan may be issued by on deck or Celtic bank on deck does not lend in North Dakota all loans and amounts subject to lender approval

• 1:26:49Jack Murphy?

  So back to the Syria stuff before we move on um what were your observations as that campaign really got up and running and the visor program got up and running too

• 1:27:04Speaker 05

  So I will miss I don't know if this is answering your question but so I was uh what do we call it compound delta

• 1:27:11Jack Murphy?

  Sure

• 1:27:12Speaker 05

  So I'm down in one of the bays where you know like not quite the team room but like

• 1:27:18Jack Murphy?

  Well the squadron is

• 1:27:19Speaker 05

  You know all of the laddering and you know like their garage

• 1:27:25Speaker 05

  And I'm standing on an ISIS flag And one of the operators who had just you know they were it's like we won the war And I'm like did this it's like yep just we just brought that back

• 1:27:40Speaker 05

  And I'm like okay like we just won the we just won the war and It was a few months later that we had you know announced that we'd basically won the war but

• 1:27:51Jack Murphy?

  Rockefeller and all that yeah

• 1:27:52Speaker 05

  All of that

• 1:27:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah yeah

• 1:27:53Speaker 05

  That group Just came just rolled in and I'm like standing on this black ISIS flag I I didn't even realize that I was but those are the types of things like

• 1:28:07Jack Murphy?

  You're like yeah holy shit

• 1:28:09Speaker 05

  You know this

• 1:28:12Speaker 05

  What the contribution, you know, did it, was the contribution, did it help? I think so. It made it so that we had more awareness of who we were going up against.

• 1:28:26Jack Murphy?

  The other thing I wanted to ask you about that too, and I know ultimately it's the JAGs that have to look at all this stuff from a legal perspective. But I was wondering if there's any issues with like title authorities or if it ever came up, like we're using civilian data for military targeting. I remember I heard a story once that the PSYOPs guys wanted to do a campaign in Syria using targeted Facebook ads. So we're going to target people specifically in this part of Syria with our PSYOP, you know, you know, virtual leaflets, so to speak. And it got shut down. They wouldn't let them do it because they were like the, the perception when it went up, I guess it got briefed to Congress at one point. And they said something like, like they thought they were going to hack Facebook.

• 1:29:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Jack Murphy?

  And they're like, no.

• 1:29:12Speaker 05

  I'm, I'm familiar with this.

• 1:29:13Jack Murphy?

  Okay, so you know exactly what I'm talking about.

• 1:29:15Speaker 05

  Yep. So the first, the first question, so, yep, we did, there was a JAG. And I just overwhelmed him with.

• 1:29:27Jack Murphy?

  Right. This is all unprecedented shit that he has to figure out.

• 1:29:30Speaker 05

  And he just, he was just like, make the man stop. Sign off. I mean, I, it was, it was, and he just wanted to, you know, his, he was not trying to re-litigate the constitution of the United States. He just, he was like, what's the?

• 1:29:47Jack Murphy?

  Because it's overseas, I imagine it's fairly straightforward.

• 1:29:50Speaker 05

  It was much, I will tell you, the, the, let me answer your question with, uh, the FBI seventh floor shut us down.

• 1:30:02Speaker 05

  Like, I get the call from the special agent who's six foot five, who's like, nope, terminate us, deep commission our licenses, we've been deactivated.

• 1:30:13Jack Murphy?

  Because they feel there's legal.

• 1:30:15Speaker 05

  Because of the legal issues, yep. And they're still, they still don't.

• 1:30:18Jack Murphy?

  Trying to figure it out.

• 1:30:19Speaker 05

  Have, have fidelity around that. Which, you know, um, so that did happen. It was like the rug got, you know, pulled right out from underneath us. We're in the middle of a bunch of stuff and they got shut down. Like, you are done. You are not to do this anymore. So, um, not so much on the, on the DOD side, only when we're looking at their own people is there a little bit of, of issue.

• 1:30:44Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:30:45Speaker 05

  Um, and I'm like, you know what? I'm not looking at anybody in particular. I am not looking at PII. I am looking at this constellation of cohorts.

• 1:30:56Jack Murphy?

  For force protection.

• 1:30:57Speaker 05

  For force protection. Force Pro, like, that's absolutely the right, the right use case. But nothing about what we're doing is, I'm gonna, you know.

• 1:31:06Jack Murphy?

  You're not looking up the guy's porn habits?

• 1:31:08Speaker 05

  Not, not for those, not for those use cases. That's, that's on the, that's for the, on the private side, I would do that. But on the DOD side, um, particularly around the ISIS timeframe, that was not, uh, that was not a big, you know, friction point, no. Um, but again, credit to the command.

• 1:31:31Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:31Speaker 05

  Force, you know, looking at this and saying, this is great, but this is not, how he's describing this dot on the map, that is not, you know, authorization to engage. Right? And that was, and.

• 1:31:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you need more.

• 1:31:47Speaker 05

  I, absolutely.

• 1:31:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:49Speaker 05

  Absolutely. You need to correlate it and other things, but.

• 1:31:51Jack Murphy?

  Other ins.

• 1:31:52Speaker 05

  If that gives us, hey, we're gonna go and.

• 1:31:56Jack Murphy?

  It's a lead.

• 1:31:57Speaker 05

  TFO is gonna go and, and build a constellation of sensors to, you know, monitor that place, then mission, mission accomplished. Like, we gave you a target that you didn't know about.

• 1:32:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 1:32:09Speaker 05

  And so, yeah, the, um, a lot of, a lot of really good work with TFO on this too. They, they, they were all in.

• 1:32:18Jack Murphy?

  Aggressive.

• 1:32:20Speaker 05

  They got it. Like, it was to the point, like, are we still playing around these stupid fucking TTS? Like, get the guy, get that guy with the funny hair to come in and, you know, just stop it. Uh, so a lot of those types of conversations down at, uh, Bell Harbor.

• 1:32:35Jack Murphy?

  And did you, you have some visibility on the psyops stuff that I was mentioning?

• 1:32:39Speaker 05

  Just, um, in terms of, they were, so it's very difficult to deploy an advertisement, an ad impression to 10 devices, 20 devices. You need to be able to do it to a thousand in order for it to run through the system. And so I was just trying to explain to them, like, unless you are.

• 1:33:09Jack Murphy?

  It's a mass blast.

• 1:33:10Speaker 05

  Unless you have, you know, some infrared gun where you're gonna like point it and shoot the ad.

• 1:33:17Speaker 05

  This is, you, you just need to open up the aperture a little bit. But trying to put, trying to deploy an ad to a very targeted group is, is difficult. To even know that you were, that you accomplished that target set. Because it just, you know, if you're, if you're, you have to understand how that ad goes from the supply to the demand side and those connections. And it's not just place an ad on.

• 1:33:48Jack Murphy?

  The concern, of course, is always that it's lawful for us to use psyops on our adversaries. Um, but we don't want to subject the American public even inadvertently. Um, because if you're running a psyop campaign on the internet, well, presumably anybody can access that, right? And I, in my view, my, I guess you could call it my opinion for now. I think that's what happened with, uh, President Trump talking about the discombobulator ray in Venezuela. I think that might've been. Some information that we introduced into the area of operations.

• 1:34:22Speaker 05

  Possibly.

• 1:34:22Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, but when we talk about like, running a campaign like that on Facebook, I mean, you can, I understand it's a shotgun blast, but it's a geographical area, like no one in the United States is going to see it, right?

• 1:34:35Speaker 05

  You can, you can target it that way. What you're really trying to, when you're, when you're developing the target, the audience, it's the contextual signals first, and then sort of the location second, because

• 1:34:55Speaker 05

  a campaign just based purely on location, there's a lot of bleed over, because you're, you're not, there's no way to be absolutely precise that you're not exceeding.

• 1:35:08Jack Murphy?

  But I mean, it's the same, and I mean, I understand, like, you have to make this make sense for policymakers, but I mean, when you do a leaflet drop, it's not precise.

• 1:35:18Speaker 05

  Which is, again, it's like, well, we, can't this just be like a leaflet drop where we're, you know, we're going to fly the C-130 over and it's, we're just going to push it out over, and it's, it's, it's, it just doesn't work that way.

• 1:35:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:33Speaker 05

  You know?

• 1:35:37Speaker 05

  You know, if you, if you look at the, the supposition about Russian hacking of Facebook ads, where they spent, you know, 250,000 bucks, and there were like, 10 impressions, and the impressions, if you look at the actual ad, I don't know that even the dumbest American would have been fooled or hoodwinked into thinking, you know, that the ad was real.

• 1:36:05Speaker 05

  So when you do these things, it has to be, it has.

• 1:36:09Speaker 06

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• 1:36:24Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:36:35Speaker 06

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• 1:37:06Jack Murphy?

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• 1:38:03Speaker 05

  To look and feel like a real ad.

• 1:38:06Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:38:08Speaker 05

  And the moderation teams at Meta and the platforms are looking for. Okay, who are you? What are you advertising? Have you advertised before? They're they're being very careful about suppressing what is not legitimate advertising. So.

• 1:38:28Jack Murphy?

  Do you think they've gotten good at or do they? These social media companies try to suppress like foreign disinformation campaigns that are coming into the United States like that became a big issue after 2016.

• 1:38:40Speaker 05

  I don't again, if so, if if the model has been trained to be able to recognize that something is clearly foreign disinformation. And it can suppress it. Okay. It has to look like something that it's seen before. But when it comes in from a new channel or the words are different or the configuration is different and it looks legitimate. How do you, how do you suppress that at scale? It's very difficult to do.

• 1:39:15Speaker 05

  And if it's being, if it's been amplified 10,000 times, you know, how do you, how do you stop that?

• 1:39:22Speaker 05

  I think they frankly, I think they put a lot of lip service to it that they're, you know, they're moderation teams and they're looking. But I just don't, I just don't know how they can be 100% confident that they are impervious.

• 1:39:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Speaker 05

  To that kind of stuff. I know, because at some point, the dis- the real information gets moderated out.

• 1:39:45Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:39:45Speaker 05

  We've seen that.

• 1:39:46Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:39:50Speaker 05

  Again, I, I think that's a slippery slope too, when you start trying to arbitrate what's real, what's not. Let, have some trust in your, in your users. You don't, we don't all need to be protected from, you know.

• 1:40:05Jack Murphy?

  I don't know, man. I, when I log on to Facebook, I see the old folks flipping out over clearly AI-generated pictures.

• 1:40:12Speaker 05

  That's a, you shouldn't be logging into Facebook. I don't, you know.

• 1:40:14Jack Murphy?

  Well, yeah, you're right. But presumably hundreds or tens of millions of people do.

• 1:40:21Speaker 05

  I, I, this is, this is one of those, I guess I would, the mental model that I attach to that is, I wonder if they had these types of conversations back when the printing press became a thing? And Ben Franklin, under his pseudo-name, was pushing out shitposts because he could. You know, was, was there a, you know, a moderation team sitting in, you know, Philadelphia, trying to figure out how to shut him down?

• 1:40:51Jack Murphy?

  I'm sure there was. King George was trying to shut that down.

• 1:40:53Speaker 05

  Probably. So I, I just, I think that this is one of those things that, you know, it's just, it's gonna be one of the things that we have to deal with.

• 1:41:02Speaker 05

  Propaganda is not new, you know. And we should probably, as a country, maybe moderate our indignation over foreign meddling.

• 1:41:19Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:19Speaker 05

  Unless we're gonna stop foreign meddling.

• 1:41:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the game is the game. But I do expect the United States government to proactively fight against, you know, enemy propaganda.

• 1:41:31Speaker 05

  I think so. I think so.

• 1:41:37Speaker 05

  So you ever done a, I was, I was trying to figure out the origination of Death to America, you know, the Iranian chants. Like where did that, when did they just decide to start chanting?

• 1:41:51Jack Murphy?

  Was it seventy-nine or eighty?

• 1:41:53Speaker 05

  Well, uh, goes back farther than that.

• 1:41:56Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:41:57Speaker 05

  Uh, if you think about, it goes back to fifty-two, fifty-three, when we, when Kermit Roosevelt, Kermit's coup, when we, British Petroleum was like, hey, the president, duly elected president of Iran wants to nationalize oil fields? How dare he? And, uh, you guys need to do something about it. And the Dulles Brothers snapped into action, sent Kermit over and overthrew the government, giving Iran the shah. Which then, over twenty-plus years, created this antipathy towards the United States.

• 1:42:42Speaker 05

  Because you wouldn't want, even if, you wouldn't want some foreign government picking and choosing your leader. It would piss me off, too. Um, so, you know, the, the influence, the campaigns, and, and if you think about the way that that influence campaign was lodged, uh, but going back to, you know, the fifties, there wasn't, it wasn't technical, but surely the information, uh, the disinformation, you know, allegations of corruption and all sorts of things to dislodge a duly-elected president from his post.

• 1:43:22Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, pisses some people off.

• 1:43:24Speaker 05

  I think so. Anyway, that was a, I went off, I went offline there.

• 1:43:29Jack Murphy?

  It's all right. It's topical. It's topical to world events right now. I guess the other thing I'd like to swing back a little bit to is like the the signature reduction, I guess is what we we'd call it, the defensive aspects. And what are you able to say about, you know, kind of where we are today in helping our clandestine personnel remain clandestine?

• 1:43:52Speaker 05

  So that is the million dollar question. So I think that I think we still have a ways to go in understanding that going black isn't what it used to be. And accepting the constraints of the world we live in, the eight trillion dollar duopoly, the trillion dollar advertising economy, all providing the primitives for UTS that go beyond just observing us.

• 1:44:28Speaker 05

  So if your if your premise is I need to operate without being observed, I don't know, go where I don't you're going to be operating in the jungle. I don't know, you're not going to be operating anywhere, you know, in a in in a city. So accept that universal truth, that it is no longer about trying to evade observation. It is it is the model, that behavioral model, that you need to worry about.

• 1:45:11Speaker 05

  And there are things that we can do that are real and not hocus pocus like playing with your phone, configuring your phone to at least minimize or mitigate some of that data that's revealing what we're what our intentions are.

• 1:45:35Speaker 05

  But it's it's almost like, you know, we we treated UTS or signatures almost like IEDs, where we went and stood up the IED defeat organization, JITO, and spent $10 billion to discover that we just need more dogs. This is not something to defeat, it's something to operate within. And understanding how to operate within means, how do I operate where I have a phone, because that's normal, but I am going to recognize that the thresholds of my actions under the

• 1:46:16Speaker 05

  umbrella of AI makes it far easier for an adversary to intervene as opposed to this episodic surveillance. So that goes back to to my point, like, data is, it all starts with the device, it starts with the device that you carry every day to the soccer game, to the headquarters, whatever you're doing, because that is revealing who you are, and you're not, but you're not operational.

• 1:46:55Speaker 05

  So it starts, it starts there with the device that you carry every day as a means of pushing back against the machine and being able to maneuver, whether it's operational or just as a person, without your intention being predictable at every moment, based upon the orientation of your phone or the battery level of your phone. So I'm starting to see a little bit of daylight, like, all right, we're not the, we're not the defeat, we're not trying to defeat this anymore, how do we operate within it?

• 1:47:36Speaker 05

  How do we understand what a cohort's pattern of life is when you're under state cover? What is, what is, what does a real State Department person look like when they are in that country? Where do they go? Where don't they go? How do we model ourselves after that to better?

• 1:48:01Speaker 05

  Operate below that radar.

• 1:48:02Jack Murphy?

  You know, the way we traditionally have taught case officers, uh, when they go abroad is obviously not to stand out, not to do anything that looks suspicious at all. You're trying to blend in with sort of the cultural baseline. Do we now have to do that electronically as well?

• 1:48:19Speaker 05

  A hundred percent.

• 1:48:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:20Speaker 05

  Yep. That is, and, and again, recognizing that a case officer or somebody who's in a denied hostile environment, they've only got so many things that they can be thinking about.

• 1:48:33Speaker 05

  And so I don't want them worried about their, their, the, their digital signature. Operate, behave as you normal, as a, as you normally would. And that is part of your signet, your digital signature management because there's not a tool that you can use. There's, you know, everything must be original and defendable in terms of

• 1:49:01Jack Murphy?

  Authenticity.

• 1:49:02Speaker 05

  Authenticity.

• 1:49:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:05Speaker 05

  Because it's that, the, the challenge in the digital signature management is it's a metadata field that you don't even know about. There are thousands of them that indicate that slight deviation from everybody else. Is that declaring you a spy? Not necessarily. It's just declaring that you're anomalous compared to everybody else.

• 1:49:33Speaker 05

  So, you know, that involves,

• 1:49:37Speaker 05

  you know, it, when you're doing your, when you're doing your, uh, area of familiarization, like understand where Americans go for dinner. And then understand where, if you need to have a meeting with somebody, where does that intersect? Where can you be?

• 1:49:54Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:49:55Speaker 05

  And that is digital casing that is very important to do. That all of this data helps us understand where, where can we operate without it triggering the Skynet.

• 1:50:09Jack Murphy?

  It can be a help and a hindrance, both at the same.

• 1:50:11Speaker 05

  We have to think about it that way. Until we start looking at it from the reclaiming initiative.

• 1:50:18Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:50:18Speaker 05

  As opposed to being afraid of it being defensive. Like you can't advance anything when you're constantly playing defense.

• 1:50:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I can't have my meetings because of this.

• 1:50:28Speaker 05

  I'm gonna just wait for walk-ins?

• 1:50:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:30Speaker 05

  Uh, okay. I guess so. I guess that'll work, but don't you want to be out? And how do we, how do we make it so that you can do that? Without you feeling like you, you know, you have to invoke all sorts of new tradecraft?

• 1:50:48Jack Murphy?

  I, I was thinking about this a little yesterday as a, for something I was writing. I mean, do you think that 1990s and the early 2000s will kind of be looked back at as sort of like a golden era of intelligence gathering? That we had the technology, but no one else did.

• 1:51:04Speaker 05

  I think it's a good lesson in, because look at where we are now. We're kind of, we stopped modernizing because the Cold War dividend made it such that, you know, we didn't have to be on the tip of the spear. And look what happened.

• 1:51:20Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:51:23Speaker 05

  So this is, this is one of those things at sort of the headquarters level. Unless you are, like, we should expect our intelligence agencies to be on the absolute cutting edge. And in many, sometimes, like, some of the things that we do are ama, like, you just, you can't make it up. It is so good. It just needs to be sort of culturally on the cutting edge. I shouldn't be explaining to a case officer of 10 years that the flashlight app made by a Chinese, you know, university does not need to know your location. You should click that off.

• 1:52:07Jack Murphy?

  And nowadays, you still do consulting with the US government?

• 1:52:11Speaker 05

  I do. Mostly on the training side. Um, and the training curve, you know, the, the programs of instruction have gone uh, from sort of these exhaustive dumps on what is ad tech? To how do we, how do we maneuver and manage it? Here are some solutions to minimizing the data that you are radiating individually. How do you, how do you think about that in terms of?

• 1:52:45Speaker 05

  Your career. And so we're starting to, there's, there's starting to be some acceptance that it's not just awareness and admiring the problem and calling it progress. It's how do we, how do we move forward?

• 1:53:01Jack Murphy?

  Aggressively.

• 1:53:02Speaker 05

  We're not going back to a pre-UTS environment.

• 1:53:06Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:53:07Speaker 05

  Those days are, those days are gone. This is the operating environment. And, you know, like the, the, the people that were working in Moscow, they figured it out when, and they came up with a whole new tradecraft program called Moscow Rules and had dummies in the passenger seat of their car that they could pop up when

• 1:53:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:26Speaker 05

  they needed to, you know, they had a little gap, put up the jack in the box. One guy dumps out, you know, the surveillance team doesn't know the difference. We need to be thinking in terms like that, and we can do that. And I think that, you know, there's all sorts of things that we can do that are on that bleeding edge that just give us that operational maneuverability or that ability to reclaim some initiative and not stick out like a sore thumb, you know, as someone who's carrying around some flip phone. And that's, so that's the, that's, I think, the curve or that's where we're moving towards.

• 1:54:08Jack Murphy?

  Normalization of, of this.

• 1:54:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. But again, it's, it's like trying to push a rock uphill and it, there needs to be buy-in at the, at the, um, at the headquarters account.

• 1:54:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:26Speaker 05

  Or, all right, we're not calling it an existential threat anymore. We are moving forward, figure it out. What do you need? How do we do, how do we deal with this? Because this isn't going away and our business is, we are in the people business.

• 1:54:43Speaker 05

  So, you know, those, but, but just, you know, think about if you, if you deconstruct that, that, that pipeline of intelligence work or operational work, you know, figure out where, where these types of data sets enhance, de-risk, you know, take out some slack in the chain, like, all right, we don't need to go and do this. We don't need to put somebody, you know, set aside watching a play. We can, we can watch it virtually and understand what's going on there. We need to be thinking in terms of how would an advertiser do this?

• 1:55:23Speaker 05

  And so that's sort of the, the meat of my, of my instruction is here's what the advertising community is doing. If we, if we look at this from a, here's where the, here's where the future is for you. They're laying it, they're laying the, the map out for you as, as we speak. You need to, you need to be part of that, part of that conversation, part of that solution. And it's, it is data, inference, probabilistic modeling, allocation of resources and attention. It's, the analog to that is you're going through customs in a foreign

• 1:56:06Speaker 05

  country and you're, there's something about you where you get pulled into secondary. What did you do to get pulled into secondary? From the data perspective, how are you getting pulled into an allocation of resource that is now going to look more deeply at you? Right. Whereas, you know, the model was looking at 10 million people, nothing to see here until that one outlier. And that's where UTS becomes sort of an action platform, not so much a event reconstruction capability. And that's, that's the future.

• 1:56:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the future's gonna be wild.

• 1:56:52Speaker 05

  But all these things are thing, you know, everything that I'm saying is I would give this advice to my next door neighbor.

• 1:56:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:58Speaker 05

  This is not, you know, think about privacy, the philosophy of privacy is a more dignified, you know, way to live.

• 1:57:07Jack Murphy?

  It's not something that's weird.

• 1:57:08Speaker 05

  It's not something that's weird. It's not something that's limited to or specific to, you know, the espionage business or the operational business. It is just a lifestyle choice.

• 1:57:21Jack Murphy?

  So some of the other stuff you're working on, tell us about, you sit on the board of directors of Unplugged.

• 1:57:25Speaker 05

  Unplugged, yeah. So Unplugged is a, is a privacy phone.

• 1:57:32Speaker 05

  It is a proprietary hardware operating system architecture. So there is a proprietary VPN that does everything that I've just been talking about in terms of mitigating the amount of data that's flowing off of your device. It is, it is, and if we think about sort of the consumer bolt on privacy tools, VPNs or the configuration toggles.

• 1:57:55Speaker 05

  That does not execute at the, at the operating system level. So an app on your phone has wide latitude to go and collect. The unplugged phone intervenes in that data collection and gives the user the capability.

• 1:58:15Jack Murphy?

  Like you were saying, Apple only has two toggles, this phone.

• 1:58:19Speaker 05

  You know, if you, if you carry around an iPhone, just go to your, go to privacy and security. And there's a bunch of security settings like access to your camera, microphone, things like that. But the privacy settings in Android is, is pretty much the same way. The privacy settings are your ID and location data. And the unplugged phone is taking the entire surface of the device that an app can interrogate.

• 1:58:48Speaker 05

  And collect, encrypt, transmit is intervening in that process because it has system level authority and control. You don't have that with an iPhone.

• 1:59:03Jack Murphy?

  Is this built off of an Android system?

• 1:59:05Speaker 05

  So it is. The hardware feels like an Android device, but the operating system is entirely proprietary.

• 1:59:15Jack Murphy?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:59:16Speaker 05

  Built hardware, software built for privacy, which, again, the only way to mitigate or to intervene in the exfil of data requires that system level control, that system level authority. Because, you know, when you install an app on your phone, the operating system, iOS or Android, does not have authority over what that app does. It is not overseeing whether that app is complying with policy. It is merely hosting that app. And that's a problem. Apps collect far more than they need to for functionality.

• 2:00:00Jack Murphy?

  I think there's going to be a tremendous emerging market for a product like that. Last night, I was reading a newsletter that's printed by what's called the Luddite Dispatch is the name of the newsletter. And I think it's a bunch of kids at like NYU and Columbia, but they're technology skeptical. They're not anti-technology necessarily, but they're like, the imposition of all these technologies into our lives is making our lives worse rather than better at this point. And so we need to like, pull a little back. Like, we're not against like, clean drinking water and things like that, but, you know, we need to limit some of these things. And it sounds like that's exactly what this phone does.

• 2:00:42Speaker 05

  It is. All of the apps that you would normally want to use still function.

• 2:00:49Speaker 05

  The intervention piece where the app is trying to send data. The app is still sending the essential data. But the data that it doesn't need is sort of zeroed out. So the app still is

• 2:01:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:05Speaker 05

  is functional.

• 2:01:07Jack Murphy?

  Just killing the adware in the background.

• 2:01:09Speaker 05

  Just mitigating that flow to the ad tech, to the monetization citadels that apps depend upon in order to be relevant. And so, you know, is it a maximalist solution? Am I sitting here saying this is going to 100% protect you from commercial? Anybody who says that is full of shit. But minimizing intervening, having some control is the first step. And, you know, like if I, you listen to sort of the ad reads of VPNs.

• 2:01:53Speaker 05

  All a VPN is doing is changing the route of your traffic.

• 2:01:57Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:01:57Speaker 05

  And the architecture of an app. You ever open up Uber while you're running a VPN and Uber knows exactly where you are? Because the VPNs are not operating at that, at that app level.

• 2:02:10Jack Murphy?

  So Not quite as protected as you think.

• 2:02:12Speaker 05

  Not quite as protected. So these bolt on solutions, I think they're all great. You should definitely use them. But in the meantime, if you are, if you really are thinking about this. And I only arrived at because I was getting the question that I kept getting. How do I, how do I get off of commercial data? How, like, how do I, how do I do this? And sort of going to a first principles. How do I, where does it all start? And it's these apps that

• 2:02:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:44Speaker 05

  you install it. That installation gives it permissions and it's like

• 2:02:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:51Speaker 05

  pulling that surface. And, and the way in which this has become even more sort of acute when Apple released its privacy initiative. I think it was iOS 14, a couple of years ago, where they gave the users the option to suppress the ad ID. It was a big deal.

• 2:03:15Speaker 05

  The monetization community, they said, okay, we don't get the ad, we don't get the stable identifier anymore. We'll go develop new ones. We don't get precise GPS anymore. We'll go infer location other ways. So they just sort of pivoted. Everybody's, you know, thinking, oh, I'm private. I've selected these things. The apps haven't, haven't gone away.

• 2:03:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Like you said, you're not going to defeat it.

• 2:03:40Speaker 05

  Not going to defeat it.

• 2:03:41Jack Murphy?

  And you're working on a book, too.

• 2:03:44Speaker 05

  I am. It's called The Quantum Signature. And it is, it's, it's, the intent behind it is to take all of the technology, things that sort of are, are introduced in, in sort of fiction, but to apply the, what is really going on in a, in a story that's readable and not just another book about surveillance capitalism.

• 2:04:12Jack Murphy?

  So it's going to be like a novel about, it's going to be real, everything that's...

• 2:04:16Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:04:31Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:04:41Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:05:13Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:06:11Speaker 05

  What's in it is a real thing, but it's, the intent is that readers will be able to connect to it because it's things that are happening to them.

• 2:06:20Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:06:21Speaker 05

  "How I Spy on Terrorists, Traitors, and You" is the subtitle. So, that'll come out in June.

• 2:06:30Jack Murphy?

  Oh, cool.

• 2:06:31Speaker 05

  Of this year.

• 2:06:32Jack Murphy?

  Awesome.

• 2:06:33Speaker 05

  So, you know how it goes.

• 2:06:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, no, my book's coming out in June, too.

• 2:06:36Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 2:06:37Jack Murphy?

  I'll give you a copy of it if you want.

• 2:06:38Speaker 05

  All right, cool, absolutely.

• 2:06:39Jack Murphy?

  Um, is there anything else we haven't talked about that you'd really like to touch upon?

• 2:06:43Speaker 05

  Um, privacy is normal. Everybody should think privacy, not just operators. It's worth, it's worth investing in.

• 2:06:56Jack Murphy?

  Well, for the, the like person out there that really is thinking like, I've got nothing to hide. I mean, what, what would you tell them, like, why your privacy is important? I mean, I guess this entire interview, we've talked about it a bit.

• 2:07:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, so my, my first reply to them is you assume you know who's looking, and maybe you have nothing to hide today, but you don't know who's gonna be looking in 10 years.

• 2:07:19Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 2:07:20Speaker 05

  So, and what's in it for you to have?

• 2:07:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:24Speaker 05

  What's the benefit?

• 2:07:25Jack Murphy?

  Because there's criminal And stuff looking also.

• 2:07:28Speaker 05

  Just you just don't know. It's it's like.

• 2:07:32Speaker 05

  You have keys to your house. You lock your door. You live in a very safe neighborhood, but you still lock your door. That is about access. Privacy is about access. There are some things that you just should maintain as something that is not between you and. Companies you've never heard about.

• 2:07:54Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:07:56Speaker 05

  And Phil, I mean, if you if you look at.

• 2:08:00Speaker 05

  Judge Brandeis wrote.

• 2:08:04Speaker 05

  The right to be left alone. It was a article that he wrote for the Harvard Law Review after his law partner. The paparazzi invaded his law partner's daughter's wedding. And this this became landmark. It's basically the basis for a lot of our privacy laws written in.

• 2:08:30Speaker 05

  50s, 40s. You go back and it could have been written today, just in terms of the risks that he was seeing.

• 2:08:40Speaker 05

  And that, I think, is.

• 2:08:43Speaker 05

  You know, the more things we think we're experiencing everything for the first time.

• 2:08:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:49Speaker 05

  It's all it's all. We've all seen it before.

• 2:08:54Speaker 05

  I had a reason to watch rewatch The Matrix the other day. And Laurence Fishburne is he should be like the the spokesperson for privacy because both in The Matrix. And in John Wick where he's, you know, using pigeons to communicate because he doesn't trust the Internet.

• 2:09:14Speaker 05

  If you think about you just the the sort of impressions of that movie in 1999. In terms of. Data, privacy, you know, the, the big machine in the sky. Like, okay, I don't know that they may be doing all sorts of acrobatic moves, but the rest of everything that they've described is pretty spot on.

• 2:09:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, the movie works, I think, real well as like a metaphor. Not that we're living in a virtual world, but rather that like our reality is crafted by these massive institutions all around us all the time.

• 2:09:51Speaker 05

  Absolutely, absolutely. And I, I think I just, it's, am I, do I, do I gain anything by saying no to that? I don't know, but I certainly don't need to just be a sheep to the, to the, to the eye of Tim Cook and Sergey Brin. Like, I don't need to be their, their ones and zero, their one and zero. I won't, I won't do that. And that's, and that's, that is the, that's the path to operational initiative. Privacy is, privacy is now sort of like the first pillar of tradecraft.

• 2:10:32Speaker 05

  You come in, you start out, do you want to broadcast to everybody that you've just joined the CIA?

• 2:10:37Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 2:10:38Speaker 05

  Probably want to, you know, think about that because in 10 years it'll matter. That you posted something, you know, a picture of you and the recruiter at the, at the recruiting fair with the CIA logo in the background with your thumb up. Like, probably, you know, that's going to come back and get you. So, anyway, but no, I appreciate you having me on. This is great.

• 2:11:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, thanks for doing it. I, I think this is like a very unique perspective and get people thinking a little bit outside the box.

• 2:11:06Speaker 05

  Hope so.

• 2:11:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:07Speaker 05

  Hope so.

• 2:11:09Jack Murphy?

  You have any websites or anything you want to direct people to, places where they can find you on LinkedIn?

• 2:11:16Speaker 05

  I'm on LinkedIn.

• 2:11:17Jack Murphy?

  Okay. Find you on TikTok? You have a TikTok?

• 2:11:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, you find me on TikTok, exactly. Other than that, I, I am, other than, you know, just Googling my name, but you can, you can get to me on, on LinkedIn. And that's, that's where I, that's where I spend most of my social media investment.

• 2:11:38Jack Murphy?

  Cool.

• 2:11:39Speaker 05

  So.

• 2:11:40Jack Murphy?

  Well, yeah, thank you. Thanks again, Mike. Appreciate it.

• 2:11:42Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 2:11:43Jack Murphy?

  And everyone out there, we will see you next time. Thanks for joining us.

• 2:11:49Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week, it's going to come into your inbox, and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House, and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you, as social media algorithms are pretty iffy, and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email, it'll slide into your inbox, and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week. It's really good, man. I'm checking it out.

• 2:12:33Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Go there, and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website, and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support, and hope you'll consider signing up. Where's the link? The link will also be down in the description, if you're looking for it there. And that's teamhousepodcast.kit, K-I-T, Kilo India Tango, dot com, backslash, join.

• 2:13:13Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:13:28Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:13:38Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:13:49Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:14:11Jack Murphy?

  For Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 2:14:37Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:15:14Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:15:29Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:15:40Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:16:11Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for Teens is Designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 2:16:38Speaker 01

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:17:16Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:17:31Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:17:42Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:18:13Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more. Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment,

• 2:18:58Jack Murphy?

  get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:19:19Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:19:33Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic", in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:19:44Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:20:15Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 2:20:43Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:21:21Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:21:35Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way, that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:21:46Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:22:18Jack Murphy?

  For Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more. Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll,

• 2:22:55Speaker 06

  restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:23:21Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:23:36Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:23:47Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:24:18Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed To help teens learn, think critically and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star

• 2:25:00Jack Murphy?

  TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:25:19Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:25:34Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:25:45Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:26:16Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports Active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com PARENTS to learn more.

• 2:26:43Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat with flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment. Get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:27:20Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:27:35Jack Murphy?

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:27:46Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 2:28:17Jack Murphy?

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT. For teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com slash parents to learn more.

• 2:28:44Speaker 05

  Cash flow crunch on deck small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Covers seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws,

• 2:29:00Jack Murphy?

  transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omelezumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Zolair 150 milligrams is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening

• 2:29:44Jack Murphy?

  allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches, and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis. Chat GPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. Chat GPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive

• 2:30:29Jack Murphy?

  quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com slash parents to learn more. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps. OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.