Nick Viall on What Reality Taught Him about America & Learning the Difference between Love and Infatuation

Nick Viall (former BACHELOR star, bestselling author of “Don’t Text Your Ex Happy Birthday”, host of the chart-topping podcast The Viall Files) reveals the shocking truths behind the franchise's evolution and his own emotional journey as he navigated the process. From surviving the heartbreak of being a runner-up twice on Andi Dorfman & Kaitlyn Bristowe’s Bachelorette seasons to dealing with public vilification, Nick opens up about the psychological toll of reality TV, the need for therapists on set, and how filming the show made him question his own feelings. He dives deep into his spiritual crisis, the grief he shared with his wife after their miscarriage, and why he’s chosen to stay off social media. Plus, find out why texting your ex "Happy Birthday" is a huge mistake and more helpful dating advice and tips! You won’t want to miss his candid, eye-opening reflections on love, fame, and personal growth! Nick Viall's Podcast, The Viall Files: https://www.viallfiles.com/ Nick’s Viall's book, Don't Text Your Ex Happy Birthday: And Other Advice on Love, Sex, and Dating: https://www.viallfiles.com/book Check out Mayim's episode of The Viall Files: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjMoZbarBm0 BialikBreakdown.com https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ YouTube.com/mayimbialik https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTOocPnDh2YQZZwh86K2OxA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  As a key player on four seasons of The Bachelor franchise, Nick Vile has practically made a

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Going on The Bachelor, I felt like I kind of emotionally relapsed back into 19-year-old me.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  That environment basically says, "If it feels good, do it." When I got off that show, I was a mess. I was emotionally [BLEEP] with for like six weeks and then like thrown to the wolves.

• 0:25Mayim Bialik?

  If you were, God forbid, having a crisis, I'm assuming they would get help.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  There's a lot of producers playing therapists and the actual therapist was more of a legal requirement. I don't think the people making that show have any idea what it's like to be a contestant on that show. I don't think they do a good job of preparing people for being thrown into public life. I felt like on an island and I was looking for my support system. I learned a lot about America filming reality TV.

• 0:59Mayim Bialik?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I'm gonna ask you to do something very quick, very easy, but super helpful. I'm gonna ask you to hit the subscribe button. You see it? Go get it. Hit the subscribe button. It just takes a second, but it means a lot to us. You have probably noticed from all of the comments that we get, many people find that listening to MBB regularly is helping them feel happier, healthier, more inspired. And you know what? That actually is why we are doing this. It makes my heart swell to hear that so many of you are feeling inspired. So subscribing to this show, whether you're listening on YouTube or whether you're listening to it through a podcast app,

• 1:43Mayim Bialik?

  it's the easiest way to ensure that you will never miss an episode. So we don't want you to miss a single one and you don't want to miss a single one. So you'll get notified as soon as a new episode drops. All you have to do is subscribe. And share this episode with someone if you enjoy it. We're trying to spread the word. Help us do that. The best way to support our show is by subscribing, so do it now. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate you. Let's get back to the good stuff. Hi, I'm Iain Bialik.

• 2:11Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 2:12Mayim Bialik?

  Welcome to our breakdown.

• 2:14Jonathan Cohen?

  This is the place we break down. Reality TV today.

• 2:18Mayim Bialik?

  This is the place where we break down how quickly can you know that you are connected with someone and possibly want to date them?

• 2:26Jonathan Cohen?

  Apparently instantaneously.

• 2:28Mayim Bialik?

  This is also the place where we break down award-winning entertainment podcast host, bestselling author, and personality Nick Vile. You may know Nick Vile from his runner-up status on two seasons of The Bachelorette, and then he was The Bachelor. We got to watch him go through a dating process and choose someone. He's not with that person, but Nick is going to break down all of the nitty-gritty details of how he was chosen and why, why he was nervous to be part of The Bachelor, why he still is nervous that he was part of The Bachelor, and how it really changed his view of himself, love, and how it impacts his current relationship.

• 3:12Jonathan Cohen?

  If you're thinking, Mayim and Jonathan, how is it that you speak to neuroscientists one week, psychedelic experts, longevity experts, other celebrities? Now, Nick, there is an interesting microcosm that happens on this show. It's also fascinating to think about, there are so many people in our society that have now lived very public lives in different ways. And what does that say about us as a culture? And what do they learn from those experiences that they take back into the real world?

• 3:45Mayim Bialik?

  We're going to also talk to Nick about spirituality. We're going to talk about his and his wife's recent miscarriage and their decision to be public about it. Also, how he balances others' opinions of him and how he uses that to sort of mold who he is today. In addition, he's the second of 11 children.

• 4:02Jonathan Cohen?

  Unbelievable.

• 4:03Mayim Bialik?

  He grew up in the Midwest, and we talked to him about how our early childhood experiences can impact who we choose and why. He's currently the creator and host of The Vile Files, which you may have caught me on a couple months back. Such a pleasure to invite Nick Vile here in person. Nick Vile, welcome to The Breakdown.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Break it down.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 4:26Mayim Bialik?

  You got the cardigan memo, I see.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  I just thought about that. I do feel like it makes me feel or look smarter, and I think this is a surreal podcast.

• 4:35Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, really?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I dress the part.

• 4:37Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so I was on your podcast.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:40Mayim Bialik?

  And it seems like every human on the planet...

• 4:45Mayim Bialik?

  Heard it.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Allowed to hear that.

• 4:47Mayim Bialik?

  People love.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  That how you felt?

• 4:48Mayim Bialik?

  Um, I mean, the comment of mine that was picked up was when I asked if what happens if people get pregnant? Like, on The Bachelor? And to me, that's like, the most logical thing to ask. And I don't know why people were so surprised that I was like, what if people get pregnant?

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, people are weird.

• 5:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Has there ever been a confirmed potential Bachelor baby while in season?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Not, to my knowledge, as I told my um, when, um, I don't know if you, but when I was a contestant, I was, um, it was towards the end of the season. And so, you know, spoilers and things like that. So like, you know, the publications have kind of relationships with the networks where they kind of play ball to not spoil things and things like that. But, um, the headline was like, you know, I don't know which Bachelorette it was, but it was like,

• 5:39Mayim Bialik?

  Which is all the same to you, aren't they?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Bachelorette is pregnant with runner-ups baby. I was the runner-up in that respective season. And I remember being like, wow, that would be wild, you know, like, you know, definitely, I knew it wasn't true, but, um.

• 5:52Mayim Bialik?

  I like that we're just supposed to put that out of our minds. We're just supposed to be like, they're all dating, but like, that's the first thing, maybe it's just me.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  But you're, I mean, listen, um, I think it's changed recently because there's been so many eyes. I mean, like, The Bachelor's been around since early 2000s and.

• 6:09Mayim Bialik?

  That's like, over 20 years.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  It's crazy, yeah. It's crazy when you think about just, and we were talking about this, we were, we, we often, as one of our, kind of our pet projects on The Vile Files, we recap old episodes of Vanderpump. And so Vanderpump started in 2012, 13 era. And when you watch that back and you just think about just then, what was allowed, what was talked about, what was politically okay, or whatever, you know, and then you think about 2002. You know, that's a whole nother decade before, but.

• 6:41Mayim Bialik?

  I think you were all in Puritan habits, like, nobody was even allowed.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Well, almost the opposite, in a way, you know? I feel like, I mean, there was an episode of Vanderpump we were watching back, and clearly. Everyone in the scene was blackout drunk. I mean, you know, sometimes if you've seen a friend.

• 6:57Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  You know, you're just like, that person is not here. And that was like a thing that happened on TV. You know, where producers and cameramen, and you're surrounded by people while watching people who don't even know what they're doing, and somehow that was okay.

• 7:15Mayim Bialik?

  And that's reality TV.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Well, not anymore.

• 7:18Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  I don't think, but that's what it used to be.

• 7:21Mayim Bialik?

  That's what it used to be.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  And it's almost surprising, to your point, the fact, I mean, I think, I think what I was about to say, it happens less and less, I think there's less sex in the fantasy suites these days. Because I think there's more eyes on it.

• 7:35Mayim Bialik?

  And young people aren't having sex, I read the statistics.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  There is that as well.

• 7:38Mayim Bialik?

  They're just on their phones in there.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  You know, I think the first 15 years of the Bachelor franchise, you know, people would joke, but it was never like a talking point.

• 7:48Mayim Bialik?

  Interesting.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Like, did you guys have sex or anything like that? And I think people were having sex.

• 7:51Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  And most leads, to my knowledge, I'd say on average, if you were to break down all the previous seasons of how much sex happens during fantasy suites weeks, I would say 1.7. You know, like, close to 2.

• 8:07Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  You know, and so, almost shocking that nothing happened.

• 8:11Mayim Bialik?

  That's true. I mean, the stats are pretty much in the favor of not having a baby, but.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  True.

• 8:15Mayim Bialik?

  You're a dad, you understand, the only way to not get pregnant is to not have sex.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:21Mayim Bialik?

  Great place to talk about the fact that you're one of 11, speaking of people making babies and having sex.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  My parents definitely were, yeah, for sure.

• 8:28Mayim Bialik?

  Do you come from a family that did not?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  We were, they were, we were very Catholic, yeah.

• 8:32Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so not a.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  My parents did not practice any type of contraception or anything like that.

• 8:36Mayim Bialik?

  So, over what, I'm fascinated by large families. Over what span of years does someone have 11 children?

• 8:43Speaker 01

  I have an older sister.

• 8:43Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  She was born 78, I think. Or, no, January of 79.

• 8:50Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  And she was born January 79.

• 8:54Mayim Bialik?

  And then.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  And my youngest sibling.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Is I eighteen-ish, nineteen, maybe?

• 9:00Mayim Bialik?

  Oh.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  I know I'm six months closer in age to my father than I am to my youngest sibling.

• 9:04Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:07Jonathan Cohen?

  It's a lot of kids.

• 9:08Mayim Bialik?

  What's your mom like?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  She's lovely, yeah, she's nice.

• 9:12Jonathan Cohen?

  She's very busy.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  It's a complicated question.

• 9:15Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and you were number two, so I'm assuming you helped a lot.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:19Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:22Mayim Bialik?

  You're supposed to, the older kids are supposed to help.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  I, I helped in my own way. No, I mean, I, I did, and we had chores and, you know, and things like that. Babysitting-wise, I was not very helpful.

• 9:31Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's funny because I, I was, I have an older sister and then the two children after me were women as well.

• 9:39Mayim Bialik?

  I see.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  I was, so I was very much like in a very independent boy, surrounded by sisters.

• 9:48Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  And I was heavily involved in sports and activities and things like that. And I think I was able to finagle my way out of like diapers.

• 9:54Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And babysitting and things like that. I, I had changed a diaper with one of my younger siblings, I don't remember who. I was definitely

• 10:05Speaker 01

  maybe eleven or twelve, maybe single digits. And the first diaper I had ever changed since was my daughter's.

• 10:10Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  You know, because I just kind of avoided it. But I mowed lawns, you know, and I had chores and things like that. But I definitely was, I, I, I got out of the babysitting duties and things like that.

• 10:23Mayim Bialik?

  But that's a lot of siblings after you, that's nine humans.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:26Mayim Bialik?

  That came into your world. That's intense. It's like a constant baby factory.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but when you're in it.

• 10:35Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  You don't know any better.

• 10:38Mayim Bialik?

  Right, well, that's why I asked what your mom is like, because like I can barely handle two.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, and I don't have two, and, and it's a lot of work.

• 10:45Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  My mom's always tired, or at least that's, you know.

• 10:49Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  She certainly gave the appearance, but.

• 10:52Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, she may not have any nutrients left in her body.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  She's doing okay. She looks great, you know.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think honestly it kept her young, I don't know. You'd have to ask her, but my parents very much, I will say this, like their whole life was us.

• 11:10Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Taking care of us kids.

• 11:12Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, was your mom a, a homemaker?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  She very much was, yeah. I mean, I came from a very blue collar family, I mean. You know, one of the greatest privileges of my life has been the ability to now take care of my parents. And a couple of years ago, I never knew like what my parents, you know, my mom, my mom stayed at home. My dad worked. I was a junior in high school. I was a smart ass. And, you know, you join a, I was starting baseball season and every like beginning of the season, you have to kind of like write your mom's occupation, your dad's occupation. My mom makes babies or something like that. But yeah, she wasn't, you know, her job was to take care of us. And she, you know, it's, I mean, it was the hardest job in the world. She truly, she woke up and, you know, fed us, did our laundry,

• 11:59Speaker 01

  you know, made us dinner. Like, she was always doing things for us. And my dad had a very modest job, you know.

• 12:07Mayim Bialik?

  What was his profession?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  He worked for a printing company, you know, so in the printing business. And it was a family owned business. And he was like, you know, the highest up you can go in a family owned business when you're not the family. Which is, you know, it's like, it was a modest business. But a couple, a few years back, I, you know, my parents are getting older and like, because you have a lot of kids, you know, they, they still had to work to take care of their family. Where a lot of their peers or friends that, you know, people that were their peers when I was growing up, you know.

• 12:41Jonathan Cohen?

  Empty nesters at that point.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  For years, you know, they had, they had met so many empty nesters and they're still, and they're still in it. I mean, I think my, my, my youngest sibling recently graduated. And there was like, you know, they kind of did a whole thing where there was a vile baby at, at North High School for I don't know how many 30 some years.

• 13:03Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Maybe longer. But yeah, I was, I had no idea how much my dad made. You know, you never asked my, my dad. But there was a few Christmases back, I was, you know, my, you could just tell that it was a hard job on my dad, you know, it just, he wasn't getting any younger. And to think there was this concerns around like, this job's kind of killing her dad, kind of thing. And.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  I finally, it was this, I felt uncomfortable asking him, but I was like, it was, we were alone. And I said, how much do you make? Then he told me and I told him to quit. And I was just like, I can, I can handle that. Which was very cool to be able to do. But that, more than anything, it was more like, I don't know how they did that. You know, I don't know how they took care of us and raised us on that, and on that budget. And I had a wonderful childhood. I had a, you know, we didn't take family trips to Disneyland.

• 13:58Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  But we had a beautiful house. It was a middle-class house.

• 14:04Mayim Bialik?

  How many bedrooms are there for 11 kids?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Five. They remodeled. They turned our living room into their master bedroom downstairs at some, when I was very young. But it was a good-sized house with a nice-sized lawn. I mean, I grew up with friends who had smaller houses, you know? But my parents, you know, they did a lot of that work on their own. My dad's very handy. He did, you know, like some things they couldn't do on their own. But, you know, my mom, they, they made it work. My mom's Christmas shopping in January, you know, to find a sale. You know? She was always looking at, you know, and I had great Christmases. And, you know, it's really like, when I think about, you know, my childhood and what I was given and what they had to work with, I'm always very grateful.

• 14:49Mayim Bialik?

  I'm curious a little bit about how, if at all, you see the way you were raised as playing a part in sort of this public role that you ended up having, you know, as sort of everybody's possible boyfriend? Meaning, were there things you learned about relationships or partnership or love from growing up in that kind of home? That, I don't know, made you feel like, I know more than other people?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Well, I think, yeah, it probably made me think I knew more. And then, and then I got into the real world and I kind of think I had to get a little bit of humble pie.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  What my parents taught me, my parents taught me a lot of great things about love and relationships. But it was, you know, was with rose colored glasses, so to speak, you know. My parents, you know, like a lot, you know, now more and more days, there's people who can say their parents are still married and things like that, you know. And thankfully, I can. And, you know, I was, I, I grew up in an environment where I never saw my parents argue. And I don't know, I'm sure they did, but they.

• 15:59Mayim Bialik?

  They had 11 kids, I'm sure there was something to argue about.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I never saw it, you know. And, and so my parents taught me that love is hard and you have to work really hard for it and it's a magical thing if you can have it. And that it's worth fighting for, which I think is all true. But I also think that love isn't enough and I think sometimes you have to. I think when you are taught that, you're not taught the value of compatibility. And things like that or, you know, and within compatibility comes, you know, how do you guys communicate and things like that because love is definitely not enough.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  And I think I, I was given this blueprint of what my parents were and I very much tried to replicate that in my twenties, very unsuccessfully. And I think that was, a lot of it was deciding that I could, you know, muscle my way through these, you know, these problems. But again, different times, right? Like my parents met, you know, I met my first girlfriend at a time that if it were, you know, 1978, whenever my parents met, we probably would have got married and I, we would have, I guess, maybe figured it out or we wouldn't have figured it out. But we didn't thankfully at the time and I had to learn some tough lessons that I, I'm glad I've learned and now, you know, very much value the importance of compatibility

• 17:27Speaker 01

  and communication and things I took for granted in my younger relationships were. I was what I like to refer to as kind of a love martyr, you know, where I would just, um, I would think love is enough and I would stubbornly fight for things that, I mean, you know, I didn't think, looking back, was, was worth fighting for. Yeah. If that answers your question.

• 17:50Mayim Bialik?

  I know you had me at love martyr.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:52Mayim Bialik?

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• 19:24Jonathan Cohen?

  What's the title? I have a multi-part question, so stick with me for a second here. Have you seen the show Unreal?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  I'm familiar with the show.

• 19:32Jonathan Cohen?

  You're familiar with the show.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  I have not sat down and watched it. Probably for the same reason that I don't enjoy the movie Cheaper by the Dozen.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  You know.

• 19:41Jonathan Cohen?

  Were you aware of that show before you thought about applying and getting involved with the franchise? Okay.

• 19:50Jonathan Cohen?

  What's fascinating to me is like someone in your position who enters a franchise like this in the later years? Because there's so much information that you have, right? Like, and I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but to go into something like almost in the early years where you're like, it's so random and like you don't know what's gonna happen, but there's so much data for you to draw on. What is your thought process? Like, well before you apply, when like this is an idea, like do you have a memory of like, it striking you, like how did the steps lead up to you actually being like, I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna pursue it?

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, I didn't apply, so there was that. And I think a lot of, depending on, you know, I think back then I was nominated by my buddy's wife, which I think was fairly typical for the men who got casted on that show.

• 20:45Jonathan Cohen?

  Did you know you were being nominated?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  She had joked with me, you know, I was, I actually teased her about watching the show. I was at his house and it was on a Monday night and that was earlier in the season, which college football was going on. So I went to my buddy's house to watch the game. She was watching The Bachelor and I was like, why are you watching this stupid show? And then, you know, and she was like, shut up, I'm gonna, I'm gonna nominate you. Cause I had just broken up with my then-girlfriend and I kind of laughed it off. And then she told me she did and I thought nothing of it. And then like eight months later, I got some random call.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  And they were like, this is ABC, The Bachelor, are you, are you still interested in coming on the show? And I remember, I'm still, and I kind of vaguely remember that my friend's wife had told me that and. At the time, I was actually in San Francisco. I remember when I was working for Salesforce and I was at Dreamforce, their big kind of tech conference. I had never been to LA at that point and I, and they were, they were like, well, we're going to be in Chicago. We'd love to meet you. And so I was more like, sure, I mean, I'll meet you. This sounds interesting. Like, I absolutely no plans of doing it.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  I very much enjoyed my job at Salesforce at the time. I valued it. It was a relatively new job. You know, within a year and it was a job that I was very grateful to have and felt like at that point, I was like, man, I really found my thing, you know? I found a company that there's a lot of upward mobility and, you know, like at that point, I really worked hard to get into a position to work for a company like Salesforce. So I was like, I'm not fucking with this at all. And so I agreed to meet with them in Chicago. They liked me immediately. I could tell that. Then they offered, they were like-

• 22:22Mayim Bialik?

  What was that meeting like?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  It was in a hotel conference room.

• 22:26Mayim Bialik?

  But this is like, talk to Nick and see if he's charming?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  I met, I met with, yeah, kinda. I met with, well, no, first they bring you into a room and you're me, and I don't know anything about TV at all at this point. I know nothing, right? And so they bring me into this room and there's this little camcorder and they hire some like local

• 22:45Speaker 01

  person, you know, maybe like a college intern or something or works for news. And, and they do like a test little like confessional, right? So they're sitting behind a camera, you're sitting there and they just try to talk to you and I was very awkward and like memorably awkward. And I remember being like, what are we doing here? Like, this is like, which is, I don't even know how I got on the show. I almost didn't get on the show. Because like, part of why they're doing that is this kind of see, can you do the thing that they do to make a TV show? And then I, then I got brought into the room where the two like head of casting were there. They seemed to, they took a liking to me, I could tell early on. They invited me to come to LA, which was the next step. And that's when they kind of bring- I think like anywhere from like 60 to 100 of their finalists.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  And then you do like psych tests and you do blood tests and you do STD tests.

• 23:34Mayim Bialik?

  To make sure you're not pregnant.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Not pregnant, not crazy, not suicidal, and you're not going to give anyone an STD if you happen to, you know, have sex in the fantasy suite. And, uh, and so, yeah, at that point, I was very much like, I'll just go to, I, I, I said yes to a free trip to LA.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  At that point, I really was like, they're gonna, they're gonna ask me to do this. Like, cause at first they give you a call and you're just like, oh, sure, I'll, I'll do your thing.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  And I don't know, I don't know what made me, you know, I don't guess curiosity, I guess. They were, they were very, they were like, we want you on the show. I'm like, Jesus Christ, like this got real, real fast.

• 24:14Jonathan Cohen?

  Just so I can track the timeline here, the LA trip, that's when they do the battery of tests?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I got a call like in November, I met him in December in Chicago. By, in January, I'm flown out to LA.

• 24:28Jonathan Cohen?

  How many days is that? Cause that's a lot of tests and.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  It's a weekend.

• 24:31Jonathan Cohen?

  I would imagine it feels a little bit invasive.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  You're locked into a hotel for two nights, basically. I mean, like, you can leave.

• 24:38Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, this just sounds like what I do with someone on a first date, so.

• 24:42Jonathan Cohen?

  Battery of psychological tests.

• 24:43Mayim Bialik?

  Lock them in a hotel.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a process, for sure. And then you, you know, you got, you did the test, you get bring it, you got brought into another room with like all of the producers and it's very darkly lit and they can see you and you can't really see them. And they ask you a lot of random questions and you're being recorded and again.

• 25:00Mayim Bialik?

  What'd they ask? What's your favorite?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Uh, one question was like, who's the hottest chick you had sex with? You know, I think that was one question. They just, they're just trying to see.

• 25:08Mayim Bialik?

  Also first date question for me.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  They're just trying to see, what's your comfort level of opening up? And talking about some of this shit on camera, you know? And I was very. Not playing ball.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  But, um, and so at that point, I was like, I think they might ask me. And so I started asking people at work that I trusted, that like, I didn't report to, that but were, that were higher up than me. And to my surprise, they were like, you absolutely need to fucking do this. Like pushing me into doing this. They're like, we love you here. We'll, we'll make it work. You know, Salesforce was definitely back then.

• 25:48Mayim Bialik?

  But we've always felt like you're way too handsome and charming to be like, working behind a computer. You should be on television.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  I think part of it was, you know, I was in my early 30s at the time. Midwest, so a lot of people my age were married with kids. And I think it was like, this is so fucking cool. I, I want to watch you on this show. I were always, it was like, I've used the, I always refer to producers as like, they're the friends who want you to buy the boat. But I came up with that analogy while being casted for The Bachelor. Cause even when I was asking my friends, it was a lot of like, you've got to do this. And I was like, I don't think you have my best interests in mind. I think you, I think you want to watch me on this show.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  But it was a lot of those same conversations. And finally I got to the point where I think, I, I don't know, this seems like a once in a life opportunity. I think my company will let me do this. They've been incredibly supportive. I have this kind of like unbelievable, like golden parachute of I can do this thing and come back to like a job. And they were just incredibly supportive and so.

• 26:52Mayim Bialik?

  They were all like, can you believe he works here? He should, he has television.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  And you know, and that's how I said yes to it because without their blessing, I would have not have done it. And they, they're like, yeah, you have a, you have a spot here no matter what. And, and they encouraged me to, to go do it.

• 27:07Mayim Bialik?

  So originally you were, you were on, and I had to have Valerie walk me through this. Originally you were on The Bachelorette. That's where it's one lady.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 27:20Mayim Bialik?

  And a lot of men.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yes. I did that twice.

• 27:23Mayim Bialik?

  You did that twice. You were the runner up to Josh Murray. It was the first time.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 27:27Mayim Bialik?

  Where is Josh today?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Dunham.

• 27:29Mayim Bialik?

  I don't know either. And then you were runner up again. And then what's that conversation that takes you from you were the runner up twice to like now? You're gonna do The Bachelor?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Well, there was a, an appearance in between called Bachelor in Paradise.

• 27:46Mayim Bialik?

  That's true.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  But was pivotal.

• 27:48Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  So after, I don't know, after I'm left on the altar. For the second time, yeah, that was.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like, you know, not to tell that whole story again, but, you know, it's a very incestual community. It's a very intense experience that we all go through that's unrelatable to anyone else who's done it.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  And I connected with who ended up being the next Bachelorette and, you know, we struck up a little bit of a, you know, fling or whatever, or just a connection, if you will, and the show caught wind of that and then gave me an opportunity to come back and yada, yada, yada, and, you know. So.

• 28:29Mayim Bialik?

  I like that connection and fling are the same thing to you. I have connections with people all the time.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  I mean, it was one of those things where, again, like, there was a show element too, right?

• 28:37Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  You know, I don't think I was at that point fully aware of just like, you know, the effect that show had on my psyche, you know? I was, I was still trying to, you know, when I got done with that first stint, I was so grateful of Salesforce and their willingness to, to have me come back that as soon as I got back, I went right back to work, which was a terrible idea.

• 28:57Mayim Bialik?

  Like, type, type, type, type.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Because, you know.

• 28:59Mayim Bialik?

  I'm Nick Vile.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Everyone has very different experiences, but when you're the runner up, that's the worst experience you can have, you know?

• 29:06Mayim Bialik?

  Tell us about it.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  I mean, you're just like, you really, you already think you're gonna. You think you're gonna do this crazy thing. I remember that morning and I remember waking up thinking, holy shit, I'm gonna get engaged today. That's crazy because this does not seem smart. And you're like, you're, at least for me, I can't speak for everyone else, like.

• 29:23Mayim Bialik?

  Were you drunk?

• 29:24Speaker 01

  No, but you're like, you're aware of what you're, you know, like you're aware, like I remember I was in Dominican Republic. I'll never forget, I was taking a pee, looking out my window and like, you know, the bathroom where it was like a designated place for the toilet. And you go in and there's this little like, like I was in prison looking out and I just remember thinking, I think it honestly might just be easier if she just breaks up with me because the idea of going home and like telling my community that I did the thing that I was like, that I was telling them no way would happen. When people are like, are you gonna go fall in love? I'm like, no, like that's dumb, you know, like I was just saying yes to like, I'd never been to Europe. And I'm like, I hear they travel, you know?

• 30:04Speaker 01

  And so I got, you know, you do like, but once I got there, I consciously decided to, well, I'm here. You know, I'm gonna embrace whatever this is. And yeah, so I, it's a social experiment. It's a beautifully designed social experiment that strips down, you know, all your support system, really. And takes your phone away, your community, your access to.

• 30:29Mayim Bialik?

  It creates an insular community where these things can happen.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Yes, and so if you, if you are going to feel something, it's going to be magnified tenfold, a hundredfold, whatever.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, and so anyway, she ended up ending the relationship. But immediately then I just felt those typical feelings of heartbreak and embarrassment and rejection and things like that.

• 30:53Mayim Bialik?

  Can you, can you talk a little bit about this? Cause it also relates to, I think, why people do love to like, listen to you and talk to you and Natalie and hear the things that you have to say about human interactions. Can you fall in love like that?

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah, absolutely. I've, I, I have mixed feelings about the feelings I felt.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  I stated I was in love more than once to more than one person. And when I said it, it felt real. You know, I, so to me, it was real.

• 31:35Mayim Bialik?

  That just sounds like every interaction I've ever had with a human.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  But that's what I'm saying.

• 31:38Mayim Bialik?

  But I mean, like, is any time we say it, it's real in that moment, but?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Sure, because it wasn't like-

• 31:44Mayim Bialik?

  What's the test of it, I guess?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  But, but like, isn't love subjective, so to speak? You know, like, the way I love my wife Natalie today, after having a child together.

• 31:53Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  After getting married together, after experiencing ups and downs, like every relationship has, and, and going through the fire together, whatever you want to call it, like, our love, or at least, I can, I'll speak for myself, my love for her is far deeper. And what I refer, you know, we have built an emotional connection. And that emotional connection is, has layers of history and conversation. I think it's less of an emotional connection and more of an emotional infatuation.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  But those feelings are real.

• 32:25Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  There's less behind it, you know, type of thing.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  What I always say, it's like, the people who get engaged on The Bachelor. You know, when you're at the end, you know, whether you're the lead or you're the person who won, you truly felt like you fought for that relationship. Because if you're one of many, you certainly, you literally competed with at least 24 other people.

• 32:51Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  And that, and that, and it's, it really feels like a fight, you know?

• 32:55Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  And then when you're the lead, like, what, in my cases, and I imagine, I know this from most conversations with the other leads that I've had, you know pretty early who you want to pick. And when you know, you're honestly, like, I remember knowing who I was going to pick by week three.

• 33:13Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  You know, and honestly, I knew night one, and then it was kind of like, you know, I don't really know her. But like, there's one other girl, maybe, and then like, the other girl-

• 33:22Mayim Bialik?

  What is it? Like, what, because I'm also thinking, to extrapolate that, you know?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  It mostly looks.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  You know, if you're being real, like you, you trust.

• 33:31Mayim Bialik?

  Well, is that chemistry?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Sure. You can trust your eyes, right? You really can't trust anything else.

• 33:36Mayim Bialik?

  Maybe you can.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Sure, but you get what I'm saying. Like, obviously, there was a physical attraction. And you can also tell personality-wise pretty quickly.

• 33:44Mayim Bialik?

  So that's chemistry, I'd say, if we're being generous.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  There's definitely chemistry.

• 33:48Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  You know, but you just, and what I'm saying is, and so the lead, you know, once I.

• 33:53Mayim Bialik?

  Then you gotta go through all those weeks and make all that television.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. And so, once you know, even when, even when you're the person and you, you're seemingly in control.

• 34:01Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  As soon as I thought, oh, I'm gonna pick this person, I felt like I was on The Bachelorette again. Because I was like, well, what if, what if she doesn't like me? What if she leaves? What if the only person I'm interested in even like,

• 34:14Speaker 01

  you know, because I knew if I get engaged to anyone, it's a huge leap of faith. Didn't matter how I felt, it didn't matter what I knew or didn't know, I'm taking a huge leap of faith.

• 34:21Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Right? And I'm taking a huge leap of faith, knowing that it's a pretty easy get out of jail card. You just have to break up. There's no lawyers.

• 34:27Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  There's a standing on your resume, so to speak, but once you get that, past that emotion, you know, it's not that hard to get out of, but it's a leap of faith. And then you, you know, for all the people who've gotten engaged, it's why those, that's why those engagements are years long. Because the reality is, they're, they're getting to know each other for the first time. And there's this like commitment. It's like an arranged marriage in a way.

• 34:47Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, you haven't gone through enough time in life.

• 34:49Mayim Bialik?

  But sometimes you just know. My friend, her parents met, and like on the second date, they're like, we're moving in together. They've been together for like a million years.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's, that's luck.

• 34:57Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, that's luck.

• 34:58Mayim Bialik?

  What do you?

• 34:59Jonathan Cohen?

  Like, in that scenario that you're describing, where the, all the feelings are heightened, and there's cameras, and like, it's so hard to trust that stuff because it's a manufactured environment. So, yeah, you could feel the connection, but I think the big leap of faith is, what happens when all that goes away? And like, what is real life? And like, going to the grocery store, and they're upset, and they don't have a producer to help them.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah. And how do they handle their emotions when they're upset?

• 35:25Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  You know, like, are your, you don't talk about love language. Like, falling in love on The Bachelorette is a relationship built with, with holding love. It's, it's, it's, you spend, if you were to, I, you know, we, people joke about it all the time. I've never done the math. But like you spend minutes, hours with someone. If you're, you know, you're, the most time you'll ever get with someone is on a one-on-one. And that's maybe six hours you'll have with that person. Surrounded by other people, never any really alone time.

• 35:52Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  If you ever get alone time, it's during like, it's maybe, it's, it's five hours during the fantasy suite. Because the date doesn't usually end till like 1pm and they're waking you up at 7. So you either can sleep or you can pull in all nighter and talk. And usually people talk and get like two hours of bad sleep. But that's all your alone time you have.

• 36:08Mayim Bialik?

  I don't look good at this.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  And so when you're competing with all these people, they're always pulling you away, right? They're pulling you away to, to talk about it. And so you're, you're, you're fantasizing about this love and this person when you're not with them. And so your relationship, when you get to the end, is really just in your head. It's not even reality. You've just, it's whatever you decided what her life is with them. Because you're literally thinking about that person while they're on a date with someone else. And you're romanticizing yesterday, because that's the time that you had. And you spend the next four days thinking about them.

• 36:38Mayim Bialik?

  Don't you think this is just what dating is like?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  I was supposed to say the same thing.

• 36:41Mayim Bialik?

  This is the thing, because I think, I, I think that there's something really, I, I really like the way you, I have never seen an episode of the show. I've never seen The Bachelorette, I've never seen The Bachelor, I haven't seen any of these. But when you talk about it, there's something that clearly is very artificial. It's very manufactured. And I don't mean that in a, in a pejorative sense, but like, it's entertainment. And there's all these kind of things. But what you're describing, like, I remember what it's like to go to a bar full of people, right? And you're wondering like, is that the person? Am I gonna meet the person? I'm competing with all these other people for that person. I picked them, what if they don't pick me? I mean, like, all these things. But this is just really interesting to me, because I think what you had is like, you're, you're showing like a microcosm, right?

• 37:25Mayim Bialik?

  Of what is actually going on in a really polished way.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  The old showrunner told me that The Bachelor was a show that's loosely structured around how dating was in like the 50s.

• 37:36Mayim Bialik?

  Interesting.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Where women would, like, when they were ready for engagement or marriage, would go on a series of dates.

• 37:43Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, you were eligible.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  And then pick someone and then just get married, you know? But I guess when we, we kind of agree that was love.

• 37:49Mayim Bialik?

  The best dowry is.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm saying for all the people out there who who met someone and said, let's move in tomorrow and get engaged, and it was love at first sight. There's nine other people who said that same thing and didn't, you know.

• 38:00Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, at least.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  And the difference is they made it work, you know, and and some of it was luck. They they were ended up.

• 38:05Mayim Bialik?

  Codependency.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. Well, you know, trauma, real, you know, love, you know, you know, it's it's a lot of different things, but.

• 38:12Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  It is a bit of luck.

• 38:13Jonathan Cohen?

  When you're a contestant and you're fighting for the relationship, how many of the guys are like, I fought so hard, but I just wanted to win. I didn't actually want the prize.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Few, yeah. I think I think most seasons, there's one or two people who develop genuine feelings.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  And then the vast majority of people who honestly get almost no time with that lead and know pretty quickly, he or she is not into me. Uh, and then there's like, you know, the final six, they, you know, depending on their ego or how honest they are with themselves. Some of them might be like, yeah, there's nothing here, but I'm along for the ride. Some people might, you know, because they just decide like this person, no, they're super into me. Because that's what, you know, every you want to date, the producer like, they love you, you know. Um, you know, and you'll have to decide how honest you are. But one or two people every season do develop what feels real, like real feelings. And when you're at the end, that's what I mean. You really feel like you fought for it. You really feel like you, you know, had to had to fight for this relationship.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  And it feels right and it feels honorable in a way.

• 39:23Mayim Bialik?

  Is it true that there are kind of therapists or mental health support on these shows? Was that always the case?

• 39:30Speaker 01

  When I was on, they had a person.

• 39:33Mayim Bialik?

  Who is that person?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  It's my understanding they were a doctor of therapy of some kind. I just trusted, um, you don't really know. Uh, they were the same person who was part of the evaluation process.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  They, in theory, were available to you during filming?

• 39:52Mayim Bialik?

  Nobody used them?

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I remember asking for them once. You know, and I was like, oh, yeah, we'll see, we'll try, we'll do what we can, they're kind of busy, we're busy.

• 40:00Mayim Bialik?

  So maybe it wasn't like a real thing?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like, you know.

• 40:05Mayim Bialik?

  Like, if you were, God forbid, having a crisis, I'm assuming they would get help, but if you wanted sort of normal mental health support throughout this kind of process, that doesn't seem like it's what it was designed for.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, that was more the role of producer playing therapist. There's a lot of producers playing therapists.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  And the actual therapist was more of a legal requirement.

• 40:27Mayim Bialik?

  Got it.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Is my understanding.

• 40:29Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Also, my understanding is that, you know, I think also just a lot has happened over the years and not good things have happened and there has been some checks and balances implemented. You know, I think there's drinking rules now and things like that. And I do think some of these shows do have far more robust, like,

• 40:53Speaker 01

  kind of, what are they, you know, offboarding or whatever.

• 40:56Mayim Bialik?

  Screening.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Screening, or just like checking in post-filming. There's a lot to be desired of what they could do. Because like, yeah, when I got off that show, I was a mess.

• 41:08Mayim Bialik?

  Why?

• 41:09Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, you're just, because I was emotionally fucked with for like a month or six weeks, you know, and then like thrown to the wolves. And I don't think, I don't think the people making that show have any idea what it's like to be a contestant on that show. And there is, still to this day, I don't think any, I don't think they do a good job of preparing people for

• 41:35Speaker 01

  being thrown into public life. And how to handle that with social media and things to do to, you know, help your mental health and et cetera, et cetera.

• 41:45Mayim Bialik?

  That's interesting.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  You really, it's a really, it's an on-the-job training, so to speak, that I wouldn't recommend anyone do by themselves if they can avoid it.

• 41:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Before getting thrown out there, before the public media, what does it look like to sort of be messed with in that way? You know, when you reached out for help, for example, what state were you in?

• 42:03Speaker 01

  I mean, it wasn't like help, I was just more like, you know, I'm a long-winded guy and I just needed to get things off my chest and. You know, I honestly just was like, if that person's available to talk to, I'll talk to them.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, it was just more, you really are alone, you know, and at that point, I was developing feelings. I was all, I was kind of like, I mean, I was having these unexpected feelings and I was also living with guys that I could tell weren't. And so, um, they, they were kind of growing up and I was like, I felt like on an island and I was looking for my support system, so to speak, you know, because you don't have one.

• 42:43Jonathan Cohen?

  Was there a culture of guys trying to get in each other's heads at all, or was it pretty brotherly?

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Well, here's what I'll say. Um, I'll never, I've always thought of myself as smart enough. When I worked at Salesforce at the time when I worked, I, I remember feeling like, wow, just really happy to be here and I, I'm doing my best to keep up. Uh, I've never been called out as smart so many times while going, when I was filming reality TV.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  I just, I'll just like every day, people were just like, God, you're so smart.

• 43:17Mayim Bialik?

  What was it?

• 43:18Speaker 01

  I was like, I don't know. I don't think I, I'm, I don't think, I, I don't know. I was, I was known as the strategic guy. I don't know. Like, you know, they, they've casted plenty of smart people on that show, but there's also, there's a variety of people and.

• 43:31Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I'm wondering if it was a euphemism for a deep thinker or, you know, as you said, you were long-winded and.

• 43:36Jonathan Cohen?

  Articulate.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Or articulate, and I think there was a handful of guys who I was, you know, I would say things like, I think this might happen next. After being there for like two weeks and it was kind of like a, every week was the same. And they were like, really? Why? And I'm like, well, I don't know.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  But you're so smart. I'm like, I guess.

• 43:57Mayim Bialik?

  Just reading the tea leaves here.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  I, I learned a lot about America filming reality TV. If I'm being honest, you know, I.

• 44:04Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, you're from the Midwest. You're from the heartland. So what did you learn?

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess, yeah, but you're still, you don't realize just how. I mean, overall, I think you have to, you know, simplify things. The larger the group you want to connect with, the simpler you have to make your message.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  You know?

• 44:24Jonathan Cohen?

  That's very true.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  And I never thought about that until I had to care. You know?

• 44:32Speaker 01

  You know, so I do remember learning that.

• 44:36Mayim Bialik?

  I'm just, I can't help but think about what we do here and, you know, the amount of people we try and reach. I think about being on Big Bang Theory, right? Which reached millions and millions of people and like, how do you communicate to people? Obviously, it's different in a scripted environment, but I think that's really interesting. Did you, did you see the contestant? That was the documentary that came out in 2023 about Nasubi, who is a Japanese actor who was cast in a reality show.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:07Mayim Bialik?

  You haven't seen this?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 45:08Mayim Bialik?

  I highly recommend it. It's a, it's a documentary about his experience because, you know, the, the director was an artiste of sorts who believed in putting him through tremendous suffering and torture for the amusement of an audience. And he like knew, but he didn't know the whole story. Anyway, I recommend it highly because it is, it's about that interface.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  What was the overall takeaway?

• 45:33Mayim Bialik?

  Um. He thought he was okay with something and it turned out he wasn't. But when you're in it and when there is so much momentum and the stakes are so high and you're getting so much attention, it can be hard.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 45:50Mayim Bialik?

  To, you know, kind of tell the difference. This is a very, very extreme. He had to sort of perform crazy acts to eat. And so we were basically watching someone. Yeah, it's a fascinating documentary. Anyway, I recommend it highly.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  It's interesting.

• 46:03Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I do remember also, like, you don't really know what's true. You know, I remember.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  I remember, you know, early on, I, you know, I got, I had an early connection with the person. So I was kind of like, I got sucked in pretty early. And as, as things got to the end, I was self-aware enough to know that I'm a competitive person and that I was in a competitive environment. And I was self-aware to know that I liked this person. Like, I definitely was attracted to her and it definitely, we had a good time. But I had no idea what was driving my feelings more was that the environment in my competitive nature or my feelings, you know, and I just, I didn't know. And I had to just decide to just say, fuck it. And, and hope that it was more real than fake.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  And, and this, having that awareness.

• 46:56Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  To know, but not still be able to get it to any conclusion because you really, you can't honestly, while you're in that environment, know how you really feel because the environment itself is so potent and strong is a fascinating feeling. But at the same time, I am grateful the experience and I do think it also was a simulation that, you know, put, gave me some trauma and all that stuff. But like it, there, if you're able to survive it and get through it, you really develop some emotional resiliency that I think has served me well in life.

• 47:32Mayim Bialik?

  When you got off the show, um, did you have, you know, when, when kind of things settled down, did you have any feeling of like, oh my gosh, what did I do? How am I actually going to date and find someone?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Not really. I don't know. Maybe that's just, I had just enough hubris or whatever.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, not really.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Because you're also like, you know, my experience, I was, I was the villain, you know? So online, I was like, I fucking hate you, you know? But I'd walk into a bar in Chicago and I was like, I'm Michael Jackson, you know? Like, I'm a rock star. Like, I would, I could walk, you know, at the height of it being aired, I could walk into a, a bar in Chicago and feel the energy of the room shift to me. And just all night long, I'm taking pictures, you know? People say terrible things about me online and I'm, I'm. I'm a, I'm a rock star at whatever bar I was walking into for an entire year. So yeah, I definitely wasn't worried about meeting people. I think is that-

• 48:34Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, but are you meeting the right kind of people?

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Sure, I mean, there's that. I mean, you know, I guess what I'm saying is right after, I guess I definitely wasn't- as, as things died down and I kept dating, um, you know, and this was more like after I was done being the Bachelor and I was kind of done with that whole experience. I definitely struggled with knowing the difference, you know, back to, bringing it back to when I was younger.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  In my early twenties, I was this kind of like romantic young man who wanted to emulate my parents' relationship. And I wanted to and expected to find love and settle down by the time I was 25. So much so that when I turned 25, I had like this quarter life breakdown, being like, where am I? You know, like, I don't have my BMW that I thought I was gonna have or something. And I hate my job and like, oh my God, and, um, and then, and then I got comfortable with being single. And then I did this stint on The Bachelor, which I, I felt like I went through a lot of emotional maturing in my late twenties. And, and I often find that a lot of adults will have some year in their late to early, late twenties, early thirties.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  And when they say like, I really knew my, I finally knew who I was at this age. Something, you know, for me, it was like around 28, 29.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  And then going on The Bachelor, I felt like I, I kind of emotionally relapsed back into 19-year-old me. You know, because of the environment. And, you know, that environment basically says, if it feels good, do it, you know? Follow your feelings, just, just go with it, you know? And that's very much us, our younger selves. It's like, we meet, you're like, I don't know, I'm feeling something. I think we should probably date. I don't know. And then when you get older, after you've had some breakups or heartbreak or disappointment, it's almost, yeah, you come a little too cynical. You meet people, you start looking for everything that's wrong with them right away.

• 50:24Mayim Bialik?

  I'm feeling something, this is gonna end in travesty.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So that, that, that, that, I would be the other end of that spectrum. And, and so in my thirties, I, I was- Trying to understand my cynicism, like balance my cynicism versus realism. And yeah, I had to figure that out as well. And I think that negatively affected me because I think at times I there was a legit time in my life where like in my, before I met my wife, where I consciously was like, I think I needed to just pick somebody. Because it was like, the only time I remember falling in love is I was either in my early, like I was either young and immature

• 51:09Speaker 01

  and didn't know myself that well, or I was on The Bachelor in a manufactured environment. So how else am I going to replicate this feeling of falling in love and really feeling this intangible pull, this whatever it is that people are looking for when they're dating. I was having the darnedest time finding that. And I was honestly worried if I was just like, if I just need to just close my eyes and pick the nicest person that I kind of get along with. And thankfully, that wasn't true. But that was a real concern.

• 51:40Jonathan Cohen?

  Tell us a little bit more about the resilience that you felt like you learned from being on the show and how that's carried over.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, for me in particular, I was someone who felt real hurt and embarrassment and shame and, you know, of I, you know, I didn't have a, you know, I didn't, I was vilified. I mean, it just like wasn't great. It wasn't a great experience. Thankfully, I've always had a bit of a personality of like, I'm kind of comfortable in my own skin. I'm

• 52:13Speaker 01

  maybe it's a product of having, I've always been independent. I've had a lot of siblings and I've never really been a tattletale or concerned myself with others. I kind of did my own thing. And so I think that helped innately.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  But I had to get through that, you know, of that kind of bad experience. And, and I had to find perspective. I had to, you know, I had to have the perspective of I could go online and feel like everyone hates me, but I could go into a bar and realize that people like me. And I had to

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Wrestle with that a little bit and I had to understand that and talk through that and you know, type of thing. And you know, I think life is hard regardless of who you are, or your station in life, or your privilege, or whatever. But I do think there are certain things that regardless of who you are, you can't escape. And disappointment and health concerns, heartbreak, you know, it affects us all. You know, you can't escape disappointment in life. And sometimes the more privileged you are, the easier it is to be disappointed and the easier it is to be caught off guard. And I think that happens all the time in life. And I think that happened in spades on The Bachelor. And it felt like

• 53:27Speaker 01

  every day was a new fucking terrible thing that I couldn't expect or wish upon anyone else as happening to me. And you get through it. You realize it's not as bad as it feels, that it's a temporary feeling. And all these things that I think anyone who's grieving any type of trauma, or loss, or pain, has to go through. And that process of healing has to go through those thoughts and feelings. And they have to gain perspective. And you really have to, you have to do that to survive on The Bachelor. And I think that was something that I was able to do successfully.

• 54:06Mayim Bialik?

  Did you rely on faith? Or did you seek out therapy? Like, was there something that sort of helped you bridge that as you re-entered the world?

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Um, I kind of lost my religion after going off to The Bachelor, to be honest.

• 54:20Mayim Bialik?

  What do you mean?

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Uh, I kind of just, I stopped going to church. You know, I used to go every Sunday. I was a eucharistic minister. I was Catholic. I was doing, you know, I was, I grew up around priests and nuns as a young man. I had a, I had a good experience despite other people not. Um, which was interesting, especially learning that some of the priests I grew up with. We're not great people, even though I had a very positive experience overall.

• 54:47Mayim Bialik?

  Sorry, it's been a rough century for the Catholics.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  You know, it's harder on others.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  You know, it was just more like, I think I just stopped getting what I... There was a level of, I think I conquered my Catholic guilt, maybe. I don't know. The shame of going, why, you know, I was just getting less out of it and I kind of stopped going and...

• 55:09Mayim Bialik?

  Did you still believe in God?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Sure, I don't know.

• 55:13Mayim Bialik?

  Because I don't really care if you go to church or don't go to church. Like, I'm more interested in like, where's your heart? Do you believe in something bigger than you? Do you believe there's a path for you?

• 55:20Speaker 01

  I believe in something bigger than me.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but people have, I think, have soiled me on religion in general. And just, I think, as a young Catholic person, or just someone who's had a front row seat to religion, you see how people weaponize it and use it for their own personal benefit. And I think, I just saw a lot of that. And I think I felt like I can get out of what I get out of my religion without...

• 55:49Mayim Bialik?

  No, I'm not trying to put you on the defense, I'm just curious.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, I have kind of complicated feelings when it comes to that. I think there's a, especially if you're someone like me who grew up with a good

• 56:02Speaker 01

  relationship with religion in general, there's a desire to want to believe, for sure.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  You know, I think I have, you know, the difference between my heart and my brain, you know, type of thing, or in conflict. I will say to that end, I don't have a burning desire to figure it out. You know what I'm saying? Like, I haven't been like, well, now that I've questioned my religion or faith, I need to get to the bottom of this.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  It's kind of like, I hope there is. I believe in something greater than myself. I believe in energy, I really do. I've always, that's always been a constant. You know, when I was younger, I believed it in a more spiritual, kind of god-like thing. But you can feel, I think, energy is a tangible thing that we treat like an intangible thing often. And when it comes to, you know, I think, if I have one bit of advice for people when it comes to relationships in general, it is centered around your energy. I think we constantly, you know, I'm someone who, I used to tell, you know, I was going through a bit of heartbreak and I remember my dad being like, "You gotta stop, man." I was just really, for like six months, just really feeling sorry for myself.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  I remember telling my dad that I have a better chance of levitating.

• 57:16Mayim Bialik?

  That's a little dramatic.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  But I believed it when I said it.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  But you can control your thoughts, right? And not only can you control your thoughts,

• 57:27Speaker 01

  what you're thinking about is you could be thinking about anything else, you know? And your thoughts take energy and then time, and that is a tangible thing that we are often not mindful of. And I think sometimes we enjoy talking about the things we say we don't enjoy talking about, or we wish we could get over, and yet we're talking about it all the time. And I think that's... Anyways, yeah, I think people should be mindful of their energy. But I think to that end, I've always believed in that. I think there's something tangibly there. And I don't have a burning desire to like get any more clarity on that. I very much try to be a good person. And I think our choices matter, you know? And I think whatever happens when I die,

• 58:11Speaker 01

  I'm prepared to be accountable for my choices.

• 58:15Jonathan Cohen?

  That's a big statement.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:17Mayim Bialik?

  When your daughter was born, did you feel anything energetic or divine about that moment?

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Divine?

• 58:26Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  No. But I felt, I mean, it felt like a miracle, and it certainly felt like surreal. It was more surreal. Now, and I don't know how it's been for you, but every once in a while, we'll be like, can you believe she's our daughter?

• 58:39Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  You know, like, it's almost as if I... Now, as a parent, I understand where the whole like stork thing came. And I don't think it was for children. I think it was for parents.

• 58:49Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Because I think there's this whole like, wait, that happened? Like, we had sex, and then it grew in your body, and then that came out? And I saw the whole thing. I honestly don't believe that happened. It seems almost just as unbelievable as she like got dropped off. I don't know, maybe other, maybe we're the only ones who've had that feeling, but it kind of feels like, huh? It's a weird feeling.

• 59:13Mayim Bialik?

  It still feels that way. Mine are 16 and 19 and I still get very freaked out by it. Like, wait, that was that person, that was that tiny helpless, you know, being.

• 59:25Jonathan Cohen?

  It's very easy. Last week, I was just like, where did you come from?

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's weird. It's so weird.

• 59:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Like, there was a time where you didn't exist, which is also very strange.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  But I, you know, divine, I don't know.

• 59:36Mayim Bialik?

  You, you recently had a loss that the two of you talked about on your show. And I wonder, I mean, first of all, you know, for you to share that level of grief, I think with, with people is in many ways very helpful. It's something a lot of people don't talk about. I wonder if being public feels scary at times like that because everything is out there.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:01Mayim Bialik?

  Or how have you sort of, I don't know, how have you sort of processed sharing something so enormous on such a large level when it's also a very personal experience?

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was really unsure. You know, on our show, Natalie and I, we like to sprinkle in stories about our relationship. I'm, I almost feel like hypocritical for saying, but I like to think of as a generally a private person. A lot of what I do is not very private. But, you know, I pick my spots, so to speak, and I definitely don't feel like I owe my entire life to my audience. So when, when Natalie, you know, had a miscarriage, yeah, my, my, my main priority was I just need to be there for Natalie.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  That's all I knew I needed, I, I knew enough to know that. And, you know, I had good, you know, I had, my mom, I had experienced a couple miscarriages and so I was old enough to, to remember those and I, that helped. Natalie had mentioned that Natalie really struggled with it. Obviously, and one thing she really struggled with is, you know, there's this weird, you know, for me, it was more. I had as many people, a handful of friends and family members who have sadly had an experience.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  And when I was old, that's always like, I'm so sorry.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  I'm so sorry. And then I would go about my day.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  It was treated differently than if, thankfully, I've never had a friend or someone come to me saying I've lost my child.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Because I don't think you have to be a parent to just.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Never, you know, but I remember after Natalie experienced a miscarriage, immediately feeling bad and disconnected from anyone who's ever told me that's happened to them in the past.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  And that was my big takeaway. Natalie was, felt like this fear of, of losing that connection that I think, that I don't know, because I don't know what it's be like, but Natalie felt a connection with River the moment she found out she was pregnant. And I think for dads, it's a little differently, different. I will say that like, once River was born, I found out that River was born when Natalie like opened, I opened, you know, she hid the pregnancy test in the drawer and I had a terrible, I was like, no one will ever see that video.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  I was like, huh, you know? I thought we're making a cooking video. And then I was like, oh, wait, I'm supposed to have a different reaction.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  But I think about that all the time, because River's been in my life since that moment. I didn't realize it at the time, but it's like you can, you get to play it back in your mind. So Natalie really wanted to find a way to memorialize our child and stay connected to that child. And so she, she was her, she came up with the idea of maybe talking about it. And we, at that point, we were like, well, let's just do it. We can, we own our, you know, our company, we can do what we want. And it was like, maybe, maybe we'll write a letter that we don't send. Kind of mentality. We felt good about it. I definitely had some cold feet. The internet, our internet's a prick. So yeah, but we, we put it out there and I think it, there was,

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  you know, the, the hope was that was like, yeah, that this, no one talks about this, you know? People just kind of brush over it. People pay their condolences. They move on.

• 1:03:42Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, it's common. It happens to so many women.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  And it's like, yeah, it's like, do you want to go to beer later? And like, you know, there's this huge disconnect. And I don't, and again, I, I've been that person on the other side. And so the hope was to maybe anyone who, who felt like no one else really gave them the empathy they wish they received, but know that they didn't give the same empathy when they're on the other side to maybe feel a little bit less alone. I think we accomplished that, although I did very much stay offline that day. But from the people I don't do know who have access to me, it seemed very well received.

• 1:04:19Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the internet being such a dick. You know, you've, you've been quoted as saying you as a policy, don't read comments and you don't engage that way. Is that a soundbite or is that true? Like is this something?

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  It's mostly true.

• 1:04:36Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  I'm a human being. I have like, I'm mostly on Twitter, X, whatever you want to call it. Because for whatever reason, I figured out that like, I can get my Packer sports content. But what I don't find on X is stuff about me that often. And I'm able to disconnect from that. And

• 1:04:56Mayim Bialik?

  Interesting.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  And that, I never go on TikTok. In fact, that when there was that temporary ban, I didn't even have it on my phone because it was, you know, and then I wasn't even allowed to put it on my phone. Now I can bring it back on my phone.

• 1:05:10Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  But thankfully I have a team, team members who post for me and I, I stay off it as a consumer. So yeah, I just have certain things that I've figured out work for me. And I'm really good at just not being curious and not looking and not doing the thing I used to do. I'd never Google myself. I don't, I used to listen to like, if I would do a podcast, I would listen to it and wonder if I sounded good and yada, yada, and reading comments. I just don't do that anymore. It's not for me to decide. I, you know, I'm really, you know, what other people think of me is really just none of my business. And it's, it, I think it handcuffs you creatively. There's just way too many negatives and it takes up your energy more than anything,

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  you know, and so I've gotten really good at self policing and not giving in to the ego of having to make to check my work and I'm pretty good, you know, I have my moments. And but I'm pretty good.

• 1:06:09Mayim Bialik?

  I want to ask about you did this special forces world's toughest test. You did that in 2023. I wonder what it was like to kind of re-enter that world. Obviously, very different from the second world's toughest test, which is trying to find love. But I wonder if you can talk a little bit about it because it was obviously super intense.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:30Mayim Bialik?

  And you chose a specific time in your life that you did it and you met Jack Osborne, who we've had on here. And I saw that you made friends with Jojo Siwa, which I think is awesome. But talk a little bit about that experience, why you did it and sort of what you got out of it.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, in the three years of its existence, I think six people have completed the course and half of them are from the Bachelor franchise. And I don't think that's a coincidence, speaking to the emotional resiliency that you develop on The Bachelor. And those three people who have finished were all either finalists or leads, you know, so.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it came out season one. My wife Natalie was like, you should do that. And I was like, you're going to you would think I'm sexy. And I was like, she's like, yeah, and I'm like, all right, well, if I get asked, I'll definitely try to look sexy for you. Was seriously like the how I became aware of that show.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  And, you know, I'm, you know, I'm 44 years old. We had just found out Natalie was pregnant with River. And, yeah, I definitely have always been someone who likes to test myself, see what I'm capable of. I'm at the point in my life, I used to be in athletics and I used to have the ability to test my, you know, test my endurance or strength and resiliency and, you know, I'm doing, I'm not doing that anymore. And so it was a little bit of like, let's see what I got, you know, I'm about to be a dad and there was kind of a metaphor of, and especially once I got there, of, you know, I don't know what's life, what life's going to throw at me as a dad. And, and that whole experience is it's very physically demanding.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  But it's not a physical test, it's an emotional test and it's about not quitting. That's all it is. It's about not quitting. It's not about passing the tasks, it's not about anything but not quitting and all they're trying to do for eight days is torture you, not metaphorically, and see if you quit.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  You know, and they feed you less as each day goes by, you get less sleep as each goes by, you're working harder and harder and the mental tasks get increased until there's only few standing.

• 1:08:43Mayim Bialik?

  That's unbelievable.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  But it was definitely something that while I look back on my Bachelor experience as something that I did without any sort of pride, I'm grateful for the experience because everything I'm doing today is stemming from that. But my Special Forces experience, I am very proud of and I'm so glad I did it and it was an experience that I will value for the rest of my life. I hope to God my children never watch me on The Bachelor and I look forward to the day that they find my Special Forces footage and be like, you know, dad did that, you know?

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  So like very, very different thoughts on those two experiences.

• 1:09:31Mayim Bialik?

  That's sweet. And also, can you talk a little bit just about Envy Media, which I think you launched, it was at the beginning of 2024, right? Can you talk about sort of why you do what you do the way you do it?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Well, I love what I do and like I've able, you know, it's a job and I work very hard at, but like, yeah, I mean, I started The Vile Files in 2019, I've grown it every year. I love doing it and I felt like we developed, I guess, a playbook, if you will, using some business acumen about like how we build our show and what we do to make it successful. And I had seen other people try to produce other shows and things like that. I mean, and as someone who moved to Hollywood or LA, like, thinking it would be cool to be Witness 3 on the local news, knowing nothing about television or TV, I really enjoyed

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  the creative side of things and thought, I think I can do this, you know? And so, we, we, basically, essentially, I wanted to apply my playbook to my show to other shows and see if I could build something. And, and then, once we successfully launched Disrespectfully with Kenny Maloney and Data Cathan, I was like, oh, I think we can do this, you know, and scale it. And then ultimately, it became something, well, I had seen other people build without a vision, you know, and it was just more like, let's just, let's just do a bunch of shows and we'll say we have 50 shows. And I'd seen that fail.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  And so, I wanted to do it with more, you know, I think intentionality is overused, but be more intentional. And, you know, we, our audience is 95% women, 80% millennial women. That's our audience. I'm sometimes shocked that that's my audience, but it is my audience and I'm grateful that is my audience. It's a very brother-sister relationship that I have with my audience. And, yeah, we, you know, we, you know, alternative media is the future, you know, what we, what you do, what I do. You know, we can sit here and debate all that in terms of its impact on the election

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  and pros and cons to this kind of open market of, of things, but I do see a lot of pros and things like that. And I want to create, you know, a place for my audience to get as much pop culture and relationship and, you know, reality TV entertainment and be the place for that.

• 1:12:04Mayim Bialik?

  That's awesome. We recommend checking out The Wild Files, but if you're listening to this, you probably already have. And also, your book, Don't Text Your Ex Happy Birthday and Other Advice on Love, Sex, and Dating, which came out a couple of years ago. Before we let you go, why shouldn't you text your ex happy birthday?

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  It's a great way of making someone else's day about you. I mean, there's no, think about it like, and there's always exceptions to every rule. I'm not, you know, if, if you by somehow, by some miracle truly became friends with your ex and years later you guys-

• 1:12:35Mayim Bialik?

  Like you and me, like I have to text you on every-

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely. But in the, in the days, weeks, or months that follow a breakup, you know, whether it's your, their birthday, or Christmas, or the sweater you left over at your house, it's just an excuse to get in contact with someone and check in to see if they miss you, or if you miss them, or if you still have some sort of pull or connection in your life. And if it's their birthday and you're reaching out to them, you'll probably ruin their day. And if it's your birthday and you think you want your ex to reach out to you, it'll probably ruin your day. It's just, it's never about the thing that you

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  claim it's about. And so, yeah, you should definitely not do it.

• 1:13:23Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, good advice. Nick, thank you so much. Really so much fun to get to talk to you. And you're very smart.

• 1:13:32Mayim Bialik?

  I really related to a very strange thing that he said.

• 1:13:36Jonathan Cohen?

  Which was?

• 1:13:37Mayim Bialik?

  That at a certain point, he thought maybe he should just close his eyes and just like, pick the nicest person who he doesn't mind talking to. Because I think when you get scared, and I, I did relate, because like, I come from a traditional home, and you know, most of my cousins were married, you know, in their late teens, early twenties, like, that's just like, you know, like, my religious family, it's like, very normal to just like, already have found someone by the time you're twenty. And so, I totally related to that.

• 1:14:07Jonathan Cohen?

  At a certain point, it's not about chemistry, it's not about optimizing-

• 1:14:11Mayim Bialik?

  Are they nice?

• 1:14:12Jonathan Cohen?

  Can I sit across from this person and have a meal in peace?

• 1:14:17Mayim Bialik?

  I just, I really appreciate his perspective, you know, I think he's very respectful in talking about this in a way that doesn't feel mean, or like, he's got sour grapes, but he really is like, owning his part. He's very present in what he participated in and what he got out of it. And I just really think it's such an interesting, you know, microcosm of what we're all experiencing, which is like, trying to find someone, trying to find connection, trying to find our way.

• 1:14:46Jonathan Cohen?

  I related to the microcosm because when he explained-

• 1:14:52Jonathan Cohen?

  Almost reality checking, trying to gauge what is real, what is not real. Um, yes, he's in a manufactured environment, but most people are going through that. Oh, did that person say something that is actually gonna impact me? And how accurate is the broken telephone that we get between three or four people? As they describe something, what action should I take next? And then I have all these feelings, what do I do with them? Even, you know, again, outside of reality TV.

• 1:15:19Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I just had this image and I remember this mostly from college. You know, I went to UCLA and there were lots of bars. And, you know, if anyone went to a college where there was a college town, there's a bunch of bars. And I just remember what it was like. I mean, Valerie or Olivia, you're welcome to nod your head, maybe you, Jonathan. Just, you know what it's like to be with a group of girls? And you're all single and you go into the bar and it's like, who's there? Who can I look at? Who can I dance with? Who's gonna buy me a drink? Or who am I gonna go up to? And like, you've, you've been in a bar where you see there's a group of dudes that come in and they're just scanning, like, that's what we do. That when we have a gathering place to do that, that's what we do.

• 1:15:59Mayim Bialik?

  And it's like, it's that precarious dance of, you know, am I right for them? Are they right for me? And when I think about, you know, a lot of people listening to this might be maybe married or maybe dating for the second time, right? Like, maybe you're divorced and like, not much changes. We just wanna be accepted, we wanna be loved, we want someone attractive to us, we wanna have good chemistry. Those things don't really change in all these kind of different environments. So I just kept flashing back to that notion of like, yeah, The Bachelor and The Bachelorette, it's this manufactured dating scenario. But when, if you turn off all the cameras, that's kind of just like a bar on a Friday night.

• 1:16:39Jonathan Cohen?

  What about the fact that he knew so early in the process, who he was vibing with and who he wasn't, and then you still have to go through the process?

• 1:16:46Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I'm more interested in the fact that like, that's how quickly we often know.

• 1:16:50Jonathan Cohen?

  Hmm, yeah, exactly. Like, it's about luck, but it is also about, you start talking, is there a vibe? Is there not?

• 1:16:57Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00Mayim Bialik?

  Remains to be seen with us. Or our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.