E300: How I Raised $100 Billion w/Rahul Moodgal

Can institutional capital really afford to rush or is patience the ultimate edge in fundraising? In this episode, I sit down with Rahul Moodgal to unpack what it actually takes to build long-duration institutional relationships in today’s cautious capital environment. We talk about why capital raising is harder than it looks, how elite LPs think about alignment over performance, and why the best partnerships are often built over a decade—not a quarter.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Weisburd?

  Last time we spoke, you were at $99 billion raised. I've been waiting to ask, have you reached 100 billion? And if so, who's the check?

• 0:11Speaker 01

  I reached it at the end of September with a handful of investors. And we took a third of that capital. And then we'll deploy it over. We've deployed it and then we'll call on them when we see more opportunities and stuff. So yeah, so I've done it officially now post October, 100.1 billion.

• 0:34David Weisburd?

  Okay.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 0:35David Weisburd?

  Excellent. Now you're immediately thinking about 200.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  I said to someone the other day, 250, but I don't know if I'll be alive that long. It's getting harder and harder. So, yeah.

• 0:46David Weisburd?

  How's the capital raising market today?

• 0:49Speaker 01

  So hard, so hard, and it's still hard.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  It's getting harder and harder because people have so many issues in their portfolio, particularly institutions. Whether it's changing government policy in the US or it's liquidity or it's China exposure. Whatever it may be, there's a lot of things going on. So it's not that people, I think people are very active. They just take their time.

• 1:17David Weisburd?

  And double click on that. So you have these liquidity issues, these China issues. Essentially, people don't have dry powder or they're stuck in some governance hell.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  It's a lot of things. So I think they don't have dry powder and the dry powder they have, they have to pay out. So that's, that's.

• 1:34David Weisburd?

  They have more requests for funds, funds are.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Well, they have re-ups and then they have, you know, they're non-for-profit, they have their 5% they have to pay out every year. So they need to have that available to them. And then I think just people are taking their time, they're being more cautious. I think we've got a real economic cycle finally because we've got inflation, we've got interest rates, we've got volatility. And so people are sitting back and saying, well, what might be said on the political arena may. It pays not to just react to everything. Let's step back and just wait and see what, what happens as a consequence. Because sometimes what you expect to happen doesn't happen. And sometimes what you don't expect to happen, happen.

• 2:12David Weisburd?

  Do you think it's rational to wait and see? And in what ways, does that make sense? In what ways is it?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  The thing is with all, with all politics everywhere today. People say one thing one day and another thing the other day. So if you react every time something is said, you're chasing your tail the whole time. But if you just sort of take a step back and see what is said and say, see what happens and really what is the impact going to be. So for example, when there was the endowment tax, it was a really big thing that people worried about, talking about and everything. Everyone's calmed down right now. We know where things are going to land and now to think about things. If at that moment, everyone decided they're going to do something dramatic and then they realized they didn't need to do it. It would have been probably overzealous and people sort of thought, oh no, I overreacted. So I think I see now people actually just taking their time and just be more slow, more patient.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  You know, the hardest day, Ted Saris always says the hardest day to invest is today and I agree with that. So I think just taking your time, which is what people are doing more and more is the right way to do it. You know, pre-GFC, everyone was in a rush. I just don't see that now. People are fine. This kind of Jomo, this phrase I heard, joy of missing out. I think people are fine to miss out on stuff now. It's not like it was.

• 3:24David Weisburd?

  And when they say they're taking their time, are they actually doing more diligence? Are they waiting to see macroeconomic factors play out? What does that mean exactly?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  So taking their time to make sure they get to know a manager and if it's the right fit. Smart investors don't chase performance. They're trying to understand is their philosophical fit. Are the values of our organization the same as the values of this manager as a person? Are they going to be transparent? Are they going to give us access? Are they doing something that we don't have in our portfolio already? So it's just watching someone. And I think over time, people just want to find someone that's consistent, that allows them to sleep at night and is just adding value to their portfolio. The thing about performance, right? It's hindsight, it's 2020. It doesn't tell you anything about the future. And you never know, even if someone's got a great track record, if it's the right thing for your portfolio.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  I think the philosophical alignment is more important. If someone invested you because you've got good performance, then when you don't have good performance, they're going to redeem. So I think people taking their time is a good thing because the longer they take, the longer they'll stay with you.

• 4:33David Weisburd?

  Have you found that to be the case? In what cases is it that people that take time are actually long-term holders versus the ones that are first off?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Good example, the investors that we took on board in October took between five and 15 years, right? To come.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  And it's fine, but I knew at every stage what they were thinking, why they were taking their time, whether we were a fit for their portfolio at the time or not. And so just having those ongoing relationships, I think, really, really helps you understand how they see you as an organization. If someone says, oh, you've had five great years, I want to give you money. And then we have a terrible year and they redeem. What's the point? It's a lot of hard work for nothing and you're not building a partnership. It's transactional.

• 5:19David Weisburd?

  But what are they de-risking over that five to 15 years?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  It could be anything. It could be change in governance, change in CIO. Actually, we want more equities. No, we want less equities or actually your portfolio is more correlated than we thought it was. Or it's less correct than we think it was. Already have a lot of exposure in the names you already have in your portfolio. Let's wait and see. It's so many things. It's not, you ask 100 people, it'd be 101 different things. It's just not the same thing. So I think I've just learned over time to just take my time and be patient. Because again, the thing for me, I said it to you before, I think the thing for me is if I can pick up the phone and call that person in 20 years' time, that's what's more important to me than if they're going to invest with the managers I work with. Having access to people is more important than if they invest with you.

• 6:07David Weisburd?

  Why is that?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Because at any time in the future, you could end up working with them. If you're short-term and transactional about it and they don't invest in you, you tend to just walk away from it and say, move on to the next person. But a lot of people who are transactional also tend to have inappropriate behavior. They're really annoyed that someone's not invested in them or they don't understand or they don't agree with their reasoning. And so they go away and they tend to have behavior which upsets an LP. And they'll be like, I'm never going to deal with that person again because they behaved inappropriately. Anna Marshall I worked with for, I've worked with the Hewlett Foundation since 1998 and her for 21 years. And she's worked with me across 11 managers, right? And the first manager I ever worked with her and she fired me. I fired my firm. Still came the next manager she invested with.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  So the first manager I worked with her on was the first manager she fired. The next manager she invested me with is the biggest manager in her portfolio ever and still today. So the fact is, you've got to maintain those relationships with people regardless of what they do. Sometimes it's not their choice. Sometimes the governance thing is an investment committee thing is something that's beyond your control. So that's, I just think about it in that way.

• 7:17David Weisburd?

  There's a GP hat, which is you have to be patient. You have to wait until they have an opportunity in their portfolio, until the strategy makes sense. But there's also the LP hat, which is they're waiting five, 10 years. Is that rational? My default framework is that the worst thing you could do is not invest. So the second worst thing you could do is invest too much or be over allocating the strategy. But the worst thing you could do is just not invest because over time, you know, the, the market goes up every five years typically.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  But those people are always invested.

• 7:51David Weisburd?

  They're just another strategy.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Every GP will say the worst thing you did was not invest with us. Every GP would say that, right? Because every GP thinks their funds are great, it's fun in the world. But the reality is if someone invests with you at the right time, when you know they're going to stay with you for 20 years, I'd rather wait for that. Then they invest with you and you have having a rough period and they redeem. What's the point? So I think this whole philosophy of building a relationship and them investing at the time was right for them. But they build the position and build the relationship is the right way to do it. So I kind of always say to people, it's like eating a sandwich. If you take bites of it, you taste it and you know what's in it. But if you, if you eat the whole thing, you'll be sick, right? You never know what a manager is going to do until he's actually in your portfolio.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And when they're in your portfolio, all of a sudden like, oh, wow, actually it's more volatile or it's more correlated. Or it's not doing what I thought it would do. Well, there seems to be a correlation between this strategy and that strategy, and I don't understand why. So I prefer to sort of take your time, you know? If you go dating with someone, you don't want to meet them on the first date and tell them everything about you. You need to sort of build that relationship, that rapport, that trust, that alignment of values.

• 9:01David Weisburd?

  There's a speed limit to it.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  I think there is. And look, sometimes it goes faster in certain phases, sometimes slower. But I'm lucky because it's a lucky.

• 9:10David Weisburd?

  Is that also true? You somehow, somebody needs access to a specific manager, you fit that bill, they invest. Maybe they only know 10% about what they should know about your fund, but that they start to learn as an investor.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. But I always say to people, you know, you should ask these questions when you meet managers. Investors, there's a lot of questions investors don't ask that they should be asking, or they ask a question, but not in the right way. And this is just me sitting on the other side because I sit on the receiving end when they find out things that are surprising. Not just from me, but from other managers like, did you know this? Did you know that? I didn't realize this. I didn't realize that.

• 9:51David Weisburd?

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• 10:36David Weisburd?

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• 11:21David Weisburd?

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• 11:28Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. But it's.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  The first money you raise is the hardest money to raise, right? And then after that,

• 11:40Speaker 01

  it should get easier. The irony for me, it's been the other way around.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  The first money I ever raised was the easiest to raise.

• 11:49David Weisburd?

  Because of the market cycle?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Market cycle, the firm that I was at, where things were in terms of how people were investing and thinking about things.

• 11:59David Weisburd?

  You mentioned last podcast, I believe it was Tamasic, that had two million in exposure into one of your funds and then I think in the next fund,

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Fifty, fifty, fifty million, yeah, yeah.

• 12:09David Weisburd?

  Is that common? Is that how you've scaled your business in that you get large investors to write small tickets and you build trust over time?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  That was just pure luck, David, honestly. So I worked at a private bank and they were, I looked after all the international institutional clients. They were a client of mine and they had two million in this, with this manager that I went to work for. And when the announcer came, I'm going to work, they said, can we give you 50 million? I hadn't even started. And when I went to see the CIO, I said, oh, by the way, I've got my first ticket. He said, you haven't even started. I said, I know, but these guys are a client and they, they love what you're doing and they want to do. And for them, it was a big ticket at the time. It was 20 years ago. They, they understood what the manager was doing and they were able to get access. And so, but that's, for me, it's a trust thing and I still have a relationship with them and speak to them.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  So it's, it's again, the person, this is a person, the person to person thing. I just emphasize it time and time again.

• 13:08David Weisburd?

  Your episode, episode 199, one of the most listened to episodes we've had on the show. And the one piece of feedback I get over and over, and I think you said that you got similar feedback, is it must be nice to be able to think so long term, to be able to wait five to 15 years. Why is that not ultimate luxury? And is it really? Is there a whole model, something that could be replicated by everyday people?

• 13:32Speaker 01

  It's a luxury. It's a luxury. And I pinch myself every day that I'm in a situation where I can be that long term. But when you do fundraising, marketing, whatever you want to call it, the first principle is that there's an alignment between the person who's doing the fundraising and the CIO or the founder of the firm. It's the first principle that everyone doesn't understand or doesn't realize. And if you have that and that person trusts you, or you have an agreement of how this should go, what pace it should go, the quality of clients you want to have, then you're right with it. For me, I'm in that situation, so I'm very lucky. Not everyone's in that situation. So for me, that is a luxury and I'm lucky to be in that situation.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  I don't ever want to be in a situation where I'm forced to raise capital, either because I don't believe in the manager or the manager's pushing me to raise money when they're having a terrible time and no one's ever going to buy it. And then I'll get blamed for not raising money. So I think everyone who does what I do needs to sit down with the person they're working for, working with and say, right, what's the five-year plan? What do you expect to achieve? And we'll say it to people when they're building a firm. Three things you need to think about is that what's your edge? What are the mistakes you made and the lessons you've learned? Because that's what shaped your philosophy and your process. And then really, let's get a one-page, build a timeline along the bottom, whether it's five years or 10 years, and think about assets under management, infrastructure and people. Because those are the three things that everyone wants to understand. Today, people don't just invest in funds.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  They want to understand what you're trying to build and do they want to be part of that journey? Funds can lose money, but if a business goes wrong, you're dead. So I think people spend more time trying to understand that. And obviously, ODD is a big part now of people investing. So I think that finding that alignment and that path to success is really.

• 15:21David Weisburd?

  Is that just on the downside that people are concerned about the processes? Or why wouldn't LP care about a manager that might grow? Isn't that kind of a negative?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  It depends. So if a manager's got a hundred million, they want to go to two billion. They want to understand, do they understand what it takes to get from a hundred to two, two billion? Are they going to build out their technology and their infrastructure? Are they going to build out an ops team and things like that as they grow? So, you know, I, I had mentioned, suggested this idea to someone who had built a firm in London. She remained nameless and an investor that I know very well said to me, I could see that you'd given me your advice, but he had no clue what he was doing because it was just him at the top with tons and tons of investment people, no infrastructure, no ops super or anything like that. So he kind of misunderstood the whole thing.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  So I think that, that's the stuff that's going to make the whole thing work. And if it's not, it's not going to work. So I think people paying more and more attention to that now.

• 16:22David Weisburd?

  And for new firms, maybe they're Fund One, maybe they're just going into Fund Two. How many years does it take to get to scale? And what are some predictable things that they run into as they scale?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  You have the guys who are, you know, the goal scorers, they, they come out, they launch, they shut. And then you have the guys who are like planting seeds endlessly to try and grow the business, right? So on the first one, obviously that's, that's the dream. But the problem about that, and I've worked with a firm like that, who is four times oversubscribed, is that they think it's easy, right? And so when it goes wrong, they don't understand how to deal with it. Because from day one, they raise more money than they expected, everyone wants to give them money and they can walk on water. And then when it doesn't go right, they don't know what to do and they're lost.

• 17:14David Weisburd?

  Why is that? Because they never put in the discipline or they never?

• 17:17Speaker 01

  They had it easy. They didn't fight, right? If you, if you have a PM who starts with 10 million and it takes them two years to get to a hundred, then another two years to get to 250. I love those guys because they never go up there, fighters, and they know how hard it is to raise money. And so they appreciate every investor. I think this whole industry. Is to me about a fine line between it being an honor to manage people's money and people who feel it's their right to manage people's money. And that's a very fine line. And if you feel it's an honor, you appreciate the process and you appreciate how people think and what it takes for them to commit to you and say, I'm going to invest with you and what that partnership really means. If you raise all that money quickly because everyone thinks you're amazing, all of a

• 18:02Speaker 01

  sudden, there's a lot of pressure on you. And then when it doesn't go right, you're like, oh, my goodness. What am I going to do? I thought I walked on water. And we've seen endless numbers of those in the last 10 years. Right? So all these spin outs come out, raise two billion, three billion, whatever. And then it doesn't work.

• 18:20David Weisburd?

  And they lose, what happens next? They lose talent, they're not able to.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  They lose talent, they turn into family offices, they shut down, they start again. You know, it's. It's um, same old story.

• 18:37David Weisburd?

  We were talking before we started, I had somewhat of an opposite philosophical episode with Yasmin from CNA FNA.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:46David Weisburd?

  And she actually focuses on, she'll work with LPs and she'll figure out what holes they have in their portfolio and she'll only deal with providing them those funds at the time that they need it. And it's much more pragmatic in that you're trying to fill a hole with specific product.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:07David Weisburd?

  Almost like an opposite of your strategy, which is you build a relationship and wait until they actually need or could benefit from one of your funds. Is there truth to that model and why can't that model also be true?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  They're all true. Whenever I speak about how I think about things, I always say it's one way, it's not the way. Right? I always think about Frank Sinatra, it's my way, not, not, not the way. There's loads of ways to do this, but the philosophically long-term minded relationship, everything is kind of suitable to my personality because I'm a people person. I'm not a transactional person.

• 19:44David Weisburd?

  It's founder product fit essentially. It's fit to your strengths.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it fits my personality, my strengths. How seriously I take relationships. And also, I sort of have this aversion to what I call wheelbarrowing. Hey, David, do you want this? No, hey, David, do you want this? There's going to come a point in life.

• 20:01David Weisburd?

  Is that a British thing?

• 20:02Speaker 01

  It's not a British thing. I've seen plenty of people do it everywhere. But I guess the terminology is British. I kind of just have an aversion to doing that. I rather contact people less, but when I contact them, it's substantive and you have a good conversation. Even if they don't work with you, you understand what they're doing, what they're up to, where they need help. And to be able to have access to people and spend time with them is just, that's priceless. You can't put, you know, I always, people, more of my peers in London will say to me, why do you go to the US every month? It's like to spend time with people because I get feel for what's going on in the market. I get feel for what people are worried about, what they're interested in. And literally, if there's a path to taking an exit with any of these people or not. And there always isn't.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  And sometimes there are people I meet that I'll never have a relationship with, or I never will have a relationship with them again. I had it before. Doesn't matter. I learn a lot and people move, they transcend organizations. You know, we've had, some people have invested us five times. They've moved to different organizations and stuff. So you just never know what's around the corner. You never know.

• 21:09David Weisburd?

  Why is that, that they'll invest with you from different positions or for different ones of your funds? What's the consistent principle there that they're relying on?

• 21:17Speaker 01

  I don't think it's performance, even though some of them say it is. I think it's relationships.

• 21:24David Weisburd?

  Is it trust?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Trust, transparency, accessibility, and just allowing them to sleep at night, knowing that if something goes wrong, I'm going to pick up the phone and tell them.

• 21:34David Weisburd?

  It's funny because I'm more of this cynical person that I believe that I'm this hyper rational performance investor myself. And then I realized I had this moment of self-awareness when I was investing in crypto. This was, I think, 2019. And I realized I wasn't actually investing into the fund that had the best track record. And I'm like, why? And it's because there's another fund, which I won't name because it's kind of a backward. But it's somebody I really trust and I knew that he might lose my money, but he wasn't going to lose my money, which was a real concern in crypto at the time. So I realized that me myself, I was investing not on profit maximization, but also on trust, on transparency, all those things.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  One of my friends said to me, and I quote it all the time, is performance is commoditized, but integrity is not.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  And it's, I would rather someone invest in me because of trust than because of performance. Because performance is not always going to be there. But, you know, I, I always believed that I've been brought up to do the right thing, and I would always do the right thing.

• 22:38David Weisburd?

  Is that a principal agent thing? In that if I'm at ABC Endowment?

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:44David Weisburd?

  It's not, my career is not based on, am I getting an 11% or a 10% return? It's whether I could justify my decision, whether any of my funds are going to blow up, all these kind of asymmetric downside situations?

• 22:58Speaker 01

  It is, but every organization is different. I just, it starts with me every day how different every organization is, whether it's process, whether it's governance, whether it's legacy. And just, I, in COVID, I was part of this group that organized these get togethers online.

• 23:21David Weisburd?

  With less than?

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And we'd have these discussions about different topics. And the stuff that people said, I, I'm glad we did it on, what was that technology?

• 23:33David Weisburd?

  Clubhouse.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Clubhouse, we did it on Clubhouse. And I was so glad that people couldn't see my face. Because some of the comments that people made, I was so shocked. They were saying, why, why would I invest in a new fund? Because by the time it does well, I'm not going to even be here and I won't get conversated on it. And I was like, you're in a situation where you have permanent capital and you have the ability to be long term and go early and really, really take advantage of that and get people at their, you know, their best time and their hungriest time. So it just, it shocks me still day to day. I, I think all the, all the principles that we think LPs have, they don't all have them. A lot of them do, but not all of them.

• 24:15David Weisburd?

  What do you mean by that?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  So I think people don't take advantage of their situation or their seat to fulfill their abilities and their potential based on the asset base, the client base or the assets they have, and they think too short term.

• 24:36David Weisburd?

  Said another way, they don't care about their mission or they're not aligned with their mission.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:40David Weisburd?

  They're just managing their career.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Their mission is long term, but they're, yes, a hundred percent, they're short term. So it's not investment management, it's career management.

• 24:46David Weisburd?

  What do you think? I had a conversation with Dan Federer from University of Michigan.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:52David Weisburd?

  And he really focuses on, he wants to go in early on a lot of funds because he wants to build that really, he wants to help that fund build.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:01David Weisburd?

  And you believe that it creates a lot of great goodwill with fund managers. Several elite LPs believe that. Do you believe that to be the case and what are some examples of that?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  I think it's a huge thing and I think more and more people do that. And you, you know, you think about all the funds that Yale backed A1 when they went on to become some of the best funds in the world, whether it was Farrelly or Baupost or Loan Bank. And I think over time, I remember Seth Alexander said to me when he left Yale and went to MIT, you know, everyone calls David, I want everyone to call me and he's achieved that now, right? I think even, I would say, he's almost turned the model upside down because today, in the old days, you had a jigsaw puzzle and everyone's like, right, I've got my endowment model, I need a bit of this, a bit of this, a bit of this to make it work. But he sort of said, well, actually, I'm going to be a treasure hunter and just go

• 25:57Speaker 01

  and find the best managers, whatever they're doing.

• 25:59David Weisburd?

  The TPA approach.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. So they both work, but everyone calls him now, right? When they first want to.

• 26:05David Weisburd?

  And these are not even contractual. This is just good old fashioned loyalty. You backed me earlier, I'm going to show you that.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Some people go and they get really good terms because they can give people big checks and things like that.

• 26:20David Weisburd?

  I guess those aren't mutually exclusive. Even if they're getting good terms, they still could king make.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but everyone does it differently. Some people want term, some people don't want term, some people want economics, some people don't want economics. It just depends on what aligns with you or how much money you want day one or whatever it may be. Everyone's different, everyone's different. There's no right or wrong model. I think you just have to find the person and the firm that suits you and is aligned to what you're trying to build, you know. MIT will have a limit on how much they want you to raise day one. And some people are like, I don't want to raise that small amount, I want to raise a bigger amount. So there's not alignment. And other people say, it doesn't matter to me. Some people say, as you grow, I want your asset, your management piece to come down. So you just have to find the right partner that's aligned with you

• 27:06Speaker 01

  and how you think about it. And some people want to work with certain mission-based organizations, but there's an endowment that they went to or a foundation, whatever, that's doing work in this space they're interested in. So this, this is all just so much less black and white than it's ever been, I think. Because there's no one way, there's lots of ways, similarly to raising capital. I have a way, but it's not the way for everyone. And, you know, I wake up every day and picture myself saying, I'm lucky to be able to be in that situation. But I would have breakfast, lunch and dinner with every single client that we have. Because I love them all and they're great people. They've really taken their time to get to know us.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  And I think, I really believe if you take your time to get to know someone, they'll stay with you for longer. Because they understand what you do and they understand where you fit into their portfolio.

• 27:55David Weisburd?

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• 28:40David Weisburd?

  What are some other really top best practices that the elite LPs do that almost no one else does?

• 28:46Speaker 01

  So I think first of all, process in terms of how they get to know you. Some great examples of that, Rothschild Investment Trust. Some of the best due diligence I've ever seen in terms of them laying out their whole process. And who's going to be involved when from our side, from their side, how long they need, the documents they need. Just incredibly diligent, thoughtful. Texas Teachers, again, they have a document called the Texas Way, which sets out their entire organization and what they manage internally, what they manage externally. Then what they expect from the external managers and the process of getting into their system, as it were.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  And then how you get onto the premier list and then how they invest and how they think about different managers. And I think when you lay that out, the people know what you're doing and how you fit into that process. You know, it's interesting. I always say to investors, you always say, these managers keep contacting me all the time. And I'm not interested. It's like, well, then tell them you're not interested. They don't know all the time. Now, some of them will still ignore it and still contact you. But if you say to them, listen, it's not a fit. If it changes, we'll let you know. Nine times out of 10, I think they'll leave you alone.

• 30:02David Weisburd?

  I always thought this kind of playing for optionality is an absurd strategy. Because there's just enormous opportunity cost. If you're spending half of your time for one in 100 chance that somebody turns around a $100 million fund into like the next Sequoia.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:21David Weisburd?

  Then you're spending half of your energy on these extremely long tail bets that it didn't ever seem to. It might make sense if you have infinite energy and infinite time. But this like play for optionality to me always seems absurd. And yet it seems like the default operating principle of LPs.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  But it's always a frequent option for LPs, always.

• 30:42David Weisburd?

  But isn't there a trade off there in terms of time, energy, opportunity cost?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  I think LPs and LPs will always have that.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Some GPs have it, not many. But GPs are always going to be at the mercy of what the LPs want because ultimately they're the ones with the money, right? Now, there's ways around it. People say, I'm not going to succumb to those, those terms or those requirements or everything. But the reality is that at the end of the day. The LPs are the ones who will fund the business and give the capital to go forward.

• 31:17David Weisburd?

  I want to double click a little bit and bring it to life for the audience. So you went from 99 billion to 100, 100.3 billion.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  100.1, yeah.

• 31:27David Weisburd?

  100.1, so 1.1 billion.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:30David Weisburd?

  And last close, some of those were five to 15 year processes. Unpack that, how did specific relationships evolve over that five to 15 years? And more specifically, how are you providing value in the short term in order for them to want to meet with you for five, 10, 15 years?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  So with all of those people, 515, I've known them all for at least 20 years. Okay, so the one that took 15 years ironically was a day one investor of ours. And then there was changes in personnel and the person who was there when we got fired just decided they didn't want to work with us anymore. So it just went away and it was a horrible ending.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  And then the person that took over is someone who was a, someone I'd worked with before. And we just, we're friends and we just talked and they said three years later, can, can you just send me some information on what you guys are doing? I said, yeah, sure. So I sent it. And then over time, we sort of talked, just kept on talking, just kept on talking, just kept on talking. And then about three years ago, the conversation changed and said, what you guys do is actually really interesting. And over the next two, three years, we're going to do some work, but I've got lots of other priorities right now. And then some changes in the team, whatever. And then it came, came to the fore this year and said, right, we're ready now to do some work.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  The adding value was just maintaining the relationship with the person, number one. Number two, helping them with things that they were looking at, whether it's Japan, whether it's India, whatever it may be.

• 32:59David Weisburd?

  Making introductions to managers?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  To managers or to other people who are looking at the same space. Or they're traveling to different parts of the world, hey, meet these people, they're really smart, meet these people, they're really smart. Inviting them to dinners in London where our clients are there. So all of those things, it worked out, it worked out great.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  You know, another one was someone I've seen, this is their third CIO role, but someone on their team has been investor of ours twice before. And it's just been a slow burn. The organization had a lot of change, a lot of turnover. And but eventually they got to it. But we've been speaking for nine years, on and off, on and off.

• 33:39David Weisburd?

  And I've seen you challenged on other podcasts about this, this issue of you, you never actually ask people to invest or send them materials, which the reason I think a lot of people challenge you on this is because it's antithetical to any other business process. So any other sales process, you're always asking for the close. That doesn't mean you push things on them. Doesn't mean that you're will bearing them and sending them five different products. But you're always asking for the sale. Why do you not believe in asking for the sale? And maybe unpack the wisdom behind your strategy.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  It's because it's a binary outcome. It's a yes or a no. And I'd rather not know if it's a yes or a no. I'd rather wait because the longer you leave it, the chances are hopefully that it works in your favor. I think everyone has a gut instinct whether someone's ready or not ready.

• 34:30David Weisburd?

  But it's not necessarily that you don't ask for a sale. You just have this sixth sense of when the time is right.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Look, there's ways to do it rather than to, you know, I sat next to a really dear friend of mine who asked an investor, we were at, we were at lunch, said, so, so you're going to invest with us a lot? And they went, no, you're not fair. And I just wanted the world to swallow me up because I felt terrible for my friend. And I also felt bad for the investor because that question shouldn't have been asked in front of me, number one. And number two, it just wasn't asked in a delicate articulate way. I would have sort of said, so how are you feeling about the world? What are you looking at? What you're not looking at? You'd have to say, is what we do of interest? There's ways around it. And I always ask people for feedback. When you look at a firm like ours, what, what are

• 35:20Speaker 01

  the things that excite you? What are the things that, you know, worry you? So there's ways around it and ways to ask it. And I just kind of do it.

• 35:27David Weisburd?

  More delicate ways of gauging the temperature.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, maybe it's. I don't want to be rejected, but I think when you do this role, I always say to all these young people that I meet that want to do I am business, I said, the first thing you need to be able to do is have every door shut in your face, right? I literally say you need to be punched in the face and if you can take that, you're gonna be fine. You know, you think every invest, every hundred investors you meet, twenty will do work, five might invest. This is to kiss a lot of frogs and deal with people's processes and governance and issues and whatever it may be, but if you can deal with all that, then I think you can, you can take it and deal with all those no's and those rejections.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I, I don't want, I think, I guess I'm scared of those conversations being permanent no's. I'm more interested in let's, let's stay in touch, see what happens and, you know, I've met plenty of investors who are looking for managers in our space, but I never talk about us. And then another manager says, if they're not told, have you not asked him about his firm? It's like he never talks about it. It's a deliberate thing that it's so funny, I was with, had breakfast today with one of our clients who'd been with us for a long time. And he said to me, I see you guys pop up more and more. I said, yeah, but I love is there's people who say, you guys have been around for twenty one years and I'm an investor in T C R and you're on the T C R platform. I've never heard of you.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  And I love that because I don't want, I want to be that extra little bit special. Um, I don't want to be the manager that's harder to find. That's more interesting. I don't want to be the manager that everyone's invested in. You know, can you have few relationships that you can have proper relationships with people and deal with them and pick up the phone to them and interact with them and have time for them? That's just much more interesting than saying, oh my goodness, I've got whatever thousands of investors and I can never see all of them or spend time with them or help them out, whatever.

• 37:29David Weisburd?

  Today, we have a lot of, you mentioned some of the endowments and foundations are taking a step back, but you also have the retail push, you have these interval funds, all these new structures coming on board. How does that affect your business?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  It doesn't because I stay away from it. I'm quite cynical about it. Maybe it's because I'm old fashioned. I like institutions. I split investors into asset owners and asset allocators. So the asset owners are the people that have fiduciary responsibility for the assets they're managing, or they're the principals of that capital. The problem is when you're dealing with intermediaries, you never know who you're dealing with. You never know who's behind the curtain. And the problem is the person who's guarding the curtain is guarding their business first before they're investing. So I always want to know who I'm dealing with.

• 38:15David Weisburd?

  Principal agent issue?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 38:17David Weisburd?

  Why is that not just a cost of doing business where you get access to more capital, there's going to be some churn and then, you know, that's just part of the business?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  I just don't like that business. I want to know who I'm dealing with. I want to understand how they're thinking and why they're with us, rather than them giving us capital because someone told them to, or someone's forcing the money on us, rather than understand the rationale for being a partner of ours. That's what I'm more interested in. Why have you chosen to work with us? And I remember, it goes all the way back to the first firm I worked at, where we were growing, we were small, and we won this massive pension client. And I was really happy we won the client, but I said to CIO the first time I saw him, I was like, "Why did you give us the money?" Not to sort of say, "Oh, my goodness, are you crazy?" And he said, "We met everyone in your space, and you were the smallest firm, but we gave you the money because when we asked if you had any trading errors,

• 39:11Speaker 01

  you were the only firm who admitted you had trading errors. And you'd logged them, and you told us what went wrong and why it went wrong, and how are you going to mitigate against those in the future? That's why we gave you the money. It's a trust issue." And that's always stuck with me. And so, having those relationships and understanding why someone's going to work with you is really important, because when they start working with you, you understand the reason. When you have allocators, you don't always know that, because people are just pushing money around. Usually it's because they're chasing performance.

• 39:43David Weisburd?

  And this is one of those things that everybody talks about, having a hole in your portfolio once an LP leaves. But it seems like getting from Fund One to Fund Two with any capital, good or bad.

• 39:57David Weisburd?

  Is probabilistically smarter than optimizing on LP quality and avoiding any holes on Fund 3, Fund 4, Fund 5. I know no one wants to publicly talk about this trade-off, but isn't there something to be said about just getting capital in and then solving the problems as they go on? And why is the quality of the LP so important early on?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  The caps, the quality of the capsule determines the duration of that capital.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  And that duration comes from understanding who you're invested with and that there's an alignment. If someone invested you because you've got good performance, when you don't have the good performance, they're going to go. So that's why I think it's so important to spend time understanding who's sitting across the table from you, what they're looking for, are you a fit, are you not a fit? I've said, when we were, we closed our long-only strategy in October, I met probably seven or eight investors this year who were interested in us. I didn't even follow up with half of them because there was not a philosophical fit. And the moment we have a tough time, all my energy is going to be spent on trying to explain to them why we've lost money. And I don't mind explaining to them why we've lost money, but that's all their focus on. They're not going to be focused on that.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  The reason we lost money is because it aligns with how we invest, right? We're contrarian, so we're going to lose money before we make money and things like that, or we're going to be too early, or there's a change in regulation, but we're not worried about that change in regulation. So I just, I think about that alignment thing as just being the most important thing and having that quality of relationship. And if those people move, you know what? They're going to come back like it's happened to us many, many times because they understand who we are and what we do and why we do it. Not that we're the guys that make them loads of money. Of course, that's important, but it's one factor. If that's the only factor, then they're going to go away when it's not there.

• 41:48David Weisburd?

  It's interesting because I think one of the most underappreciated aspect in finance is the concept of LP capture. The quality of your LPs could dictate your fund. So people kind of look at GPs and LPs almost as this two different worlds and LPs being passive, GPs being active. But oftentimes, the LPs can massively change the trajectory of the fund. An example, today, everybody's yelling for DPI, which obviously is an important thing, but Forcing managers to get DPI, especially in assets that don't naturally have a liquid buyer or a lot of demand, could destroy, could cut off the legs of that fund for future vintages. Versus other endowments that are thinking really long term and want to be long term capital partners.

• 42:33David Weisburd?

  Not only can they avoid forcing this DPI, but sometimes, to your point, sometimes the best LPs will back you when the market's down because that's a great buying opportunity.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  To me, that's the epitome of having the right LP, is that they double down, not that they run away. That's exactly, to me, the definition of finding the right LP.

• 42:57David Weisburd?

  That's a LEMIS test.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  It is, it is. So again.

• 43:00David Weisburd?

  Do you ever prescreen that?

• 43:02Speaker 01

  We ask questions. I always ask, how do you think about volatility? How do you think about concentration, lockups, all of that? But it also plays into, when you work with someone, you say to them, give us a quarter or a third of your capital. And then when the volatility comes and you call capital, like we do Brexit, Ukraine, COVID, do they add or do they not add? And then that's the first test. And 99% of the time, they add. They usually don't add, either because they haven't got liquidity or because they're full on us. But, yeah.

• 43:37David Weisburd?

  So outside of Parvis, you also have a lot of other interesting activities. So tell me about the other things that you work on.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  So do loads of stuff with Ted Sides. The main thing is, we started doing these summits post-COVID.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  We sort of took the model of summits and what people were doing and turned them on its head. So we don't have any panels or anything. We do small group discussions. Because the reality is that people want to talk to other people. Yeah, their peers, and they want to do it in a safe environment. But we mix LPs and GPs for most of the part. And so we have always a session where the GPs are challenging the LPs and the LPs are challenging the GPs. And it's great, same when issues come up. But also the perspective for the LP, for the GPs, understand what the LPs are going through in terms of their processes, in terms of governance, in terms of liquidity and all the rest of it. And nine times out of 10, they walk away and go, I didn't realize all this stuff was going on at these organizations.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  It's not that they're not interested, but they've got so much else to deal with. And then it's LPs giving GPs advice on how to build a business well and do all that stuff. So that takes up a lot of time. And then um working with Ron Ron Biscardi Eye Connections, um which is was great. And I'm on the board of a few funds and then loads and loads and loads and loads of charity work. And especially September to December is just crazy time. So um it's something I I learnt from my mum and I really care about. And I think my mum always said to me, there's always going to be people worse off with you and then people better off than you. So just, you know, make sure that you're lucky and make sure you realise you're lucky and um do good things. But also, my kids

• 45:18Speaker 01

  are seven and I want them to see that saying something is one thing, but doing it is another. And if you do it, then they pick up on it and they say, actually, this is a real thing and we can we can help people who are less fortunate. So twice a year, we make our kids clear out their their playroom and and and their bedrooms. This stuff's all going to kids who are less fortunate. And these clothes are all going to their kids as well. And they they like it. They like doing it.

• 45:44David Weisburd?

  Does that help? Does it help bring perspective to your career and help you in career wise?

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. And it makes you want to work more and more admission based organisations. Um but there's some amazing families that do so much philanthropy, incredible amounts of philanthropy, in so much so that some of them, we have one family that we work with. I wouldn't even say it's a family or say it's a foundation. They give all their gains away every year to to charity. So just incredible people. And then obviously working for pensions, um where you're working for teachers or firemen, whatever, it's an honour, you know, those people sacrifice so much to serve the public. So it's great. At the end of the day, it's just finding the right people you can have great conversations with, have a good time with and, you know, hopefully work with for a long time. Yeah.

• 46:34David Weisburd?

  You've had this illustrious career, but you've also seen other people's careers, maybe some not as illustrious. And what are some timeless lessons that you've seen that GPs or LPs that succeed in the space?

• 46:48Speaker 01

  I love people who are just themselves and they don't conform. So they always stand out. I kind of am envious of people who do that because they just have managed to just be themselves regardless of what's going on in the market or what's going on in the world. I love people who always send the elevator back down. I think it's a really important thing. A lot of people don't, but those who do.

• 47:15David Weisburd?

  Is that in terms of career development?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Career development or, you know, someone pings you on LinkedIn, you don't know them or you don't know what they're after. But if they're just saying, listen, can I just have five minutes or 10 minutes of your time? It's never five minutes. It's usually half an hour.

• 47:31David Weisburd?

  Yeah.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  And you can't do all of them. But, you know, it's, we are in this industry are really lucky and privileged to be in this industry, right? You know, I saw something on LinkedIn recently, which was great, you know, it's, we are privileged to wake up tight. We are privileged to wake up and have choices. We are privileged to wake up and, you know, be able to do all the things we want to do. And when you're in that situation and they're not even in that situation, I think we have an obligation, a right to,

• 48:00Speaker 01

  to help people who are not in that situation. That's how I think about it. But maybe I'm too, too emotional about it. But I just think, why wouldn't you? I'd always help a young person because I was a young person once and not everyone helped me. So I need to take that and say, well, let's help a young person who's in that situation.

• 48:20David Weisburd?

  I think there's definitely some younger people that have the skill of being mentee. Sometimes I observe, you know, I don't respond. There's a whole question of why do you respond to some LinkedIn messages, not others? It seems like it's random.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 48:33David Weisburd?

  Typically like how they're phrased, how they present themselves. So there's this interesting skill. It's a unique skill set that some people have of being great mentees. It's an underappreciated skill.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  I think that's spot on. But also I think when you have these LinkedIn messages where you're like, where's this going? I just say, how can I help you? I literally just go straight to a point. And they'll say something. I'm like, I can't help you with that. Or you should do this or think about this. I think you shouldn't ignore people. I don't anyway, even if it's one liner.

• 49:11David Weisburd?

  What's an underrated quality or behavior in the industry? That you feel really sets people apart and makes them successful?

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Integrity. It's just so undervalued. I think so many people chase performance. I've had investors tell me of managers they're invested in, but they don't actually like the manager or they don't trust the manager. I'm like, why are you invested with them then? They record all their phone calls, they record all their meetings. They're like, because we don't trust that person. I'm like, how can you invest with that?

• 49:47David Weisburd?

  What's the answer?

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Makes money.

• 49:51David Weisburd?

  Do you think that's a bad answer?

• 49:53Speaker 01

  It's not my, I would never.

• 49:55David Weisburd?

  It's a tough lifestyle.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  It's tough, right? But I always say, you know, if you're CIO of an endowment and you've got two managers that you're down to two managers for a strategy and one makes thirty percent a year, but gives you no transparency, has a tough personality, you can't get access to them. You don't know what's in their portfolio versus someone who gives you fifteen percent, fully transparent, you can see the team, you know what they're invested in, which you're gonna do. Some will say the thirty percent, give me the fifteen percent because I know what I'm investing in and I know.

• 50:30David Weisburd?

  And that's quite a difference, fifteen, thirty. If it's thirty and twenty-five, I'd say probably ninety-nine percent of people would say the twenty-five.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the reason I've emphasized that difference is because for me, it's worth that trade-off because what certainly the GPs forget is that line of reporting, right? You're dealing with, whether it's an MD or an analyst, and it goes all the way up then to the CIO, then to the investment committee, Chair of the Investment Committee, then maybe to a board and president above that. So I don't think people realize that line of reporting. Now, if I'm in that situation, I would take the fifteen percent guy because I know what I'm investing in and I know when it goes wrong, what's gone wrong, and I know when it's working, what's making money. But if you don't know that, then how are you gonna report to your board when that person loses twenty, thirty, forty percent?

• 51:22Speaker 01

  If they're not telling you what's in their portfolio?

• 51:25David Weisburd?

  You gave this example earlier of integrity, which is you tell them when you had trading errors. And that's why this small pension fund invested. What's another example of having integrity?

• 51:36Speaker 01

  It's picking up the phone when you've made a mistake, is telling people when someone's leaving your phone. It's, you know, it's this major personal thing that's going on with someone and in your organization. And you tell your clients about it.

• 51:49David Weisburd?

  It's something that almost invariably or definitionally has short term cost to you. That's in the nature of the long term relationship.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  The way I think about it is this industry, there's a lot of rumor and a lot of gossip and stuff. What is it that I need to do to control the narrative in case something gets out? Right? So if something's gonna happen or something's gonna go wrong, it's more important you communicate that than the communication finds its way to your LPs and then you've got to explain why you didn't talk about it. So for me, that's, you know, doing the right thing. I've just got to remember that these guys have responsibility and they've entrusted their capital. It's not, it's not David's capital or my capital. It's that they're working for an institution or a mission. So you, I think you've got to help them do their job.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Right? And when you're transparent, people are just gonna stay with you. And again, going back to what I said before, when people sell their business, I always say, always talk about the mistakes you've made and the lessons you've learned. Because that's what shaped who you are and what you do. And to be honest, if someone's doing good work on you, they're gonna find out about the mistakes you made from your previous shop and things you got wrong. So just be honest about it, you know? I said this to someone recently, if you start dating someone and you say, oh, when I drink, I'm a bit of an idiot. At least they know, right? But if they find out after you got married and you've got kids, they're gonna be like, hold on, what's going on here? So, you know, I just kind of think just be open and upfront.

• 53:22David Weisburd?

  I learned this from Naval, Naval Ravikant.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:24David Weisburd?

  I had on my second date with my now wife, Jessica, I told her like all the negatives or many of the negatives. And I'm like, this is, this is my positive, these are my negatives and I just live with them. And we, we kind of had a long conversation about it. And as I could see that she was fine with those. And then, then it was the basis of the relationship.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  But

• 53:44David Weisburd?

  It's counterintuitive because everyone wants, it's that optionality. They rather, I'd rather have been alone and find my true life partner rather than keep it going with somebody that I thought would not be a fit.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. So again, I quite often start a pitch with, these are the reasons people don't invest with us. And you should see people's faces and they're like, what's going on here? I'm like, you spent whatever, a day, two days, a week in London getting pitched by every fund on the street. We're not here to do that. We're here to tell you what, why people don't invest with us. And if it's a fit, we can talk more. And if it's not, it doesn't matter.

• 54:22David Weisburd?

  What's something you've changed your mind about in the last 12 months?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Probably AI.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  I think I'm so old school.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna use AI for my relationships, but I'm curious about learning about how it can be used to probably allow me to do even more things than I do. I'm curious about it. I don't know if I'm a believer. I mean, obviously it's gonna grow and be a bigger, bigger part of our world and what we do. I chair my kids' schools development board. So one of the parents is obsessed with Clicquot champagne. And so we had these special ones made for our school, for a charity night. And even though they were meant to go into an auction, we had some spare ones and the mum came to me and said, oh, listen, I'm obsessed with verb. Can you get me some of those? And I said, well, these are the tickets. And she said, I could spend all this money on these raffle tickets, but I just want those bottles.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  So I offered her a price point, which wasn't cheap. And she said, I'll take them. And she, she bought them off me. So then I thought, I'm going to create a verb, Clicquot champagne collection for the school charity. And so I, for the first time, I think it might have been the first time I ever used AI. I typed in all the names of all the champagnes and just went, can you create a picture? And it came out like, do you want them in height order? Do you want them in age order? Do you want them? I was like, wow. And it created this beautiful picture of all these bottles together.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  I thought, oh, this is quite cool. So my daughter keeps, she's seven. And she keeps saying AI. She said it to me on Sunday like three times. I'm like, how do you even know about that phrase? So I need to learn about it and be cool with the kid, hanging out with the kids. But I think that's probably.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  The biggest thing that I've changed my mind on.

• 56:18David Weisburd?

  After our last podcast, you've sent me three handwritten notes. Tell me about this and do you send this to everybody that you meet?

• 56:27Speaker 01

  There's nothing like getting a piece of mail because no one gets it anymore. It's such a lost art. And I remember when I was a kid, you know, I had a really close group of friends in high school and none of our parents had any money. But the one thing that we like had an agreement was like, we're always going to give each other a card. It was like a thing is I don't care about present, but I want a card. So it sort of started from there. My mom was always sending cards to to family and we were getting cards from them. So it's something I've grown up with. And I don't know if it will be a thing when my kids are adults, you know, Denmark's just closing down its whole postal system now. And so maybe more and more countries follow in that in that way. But when you send a card across the ocean, I know

• 57:13Speaker 01

  what it means to people. I always go back to that Maya Angelou quote, people may not remember what you said or what you did, but always remember how you made them feel. And I know when people message you like, I love my card or thank you for writing me a card. I know how I feel when I get one, so I want to just do that back to people.

• 57:29David Weisburd?

  Yeah, well, it was quite an experience. Even Jessica mentioned, she's like, who's sending you cards? I'm like, don't worry, it's a guy.

• 57:37David Weisburd?

  So on that note, thanks so much, Rahul. I appreciate you jumping on.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Thank you, David. Thanks for having me.

• 57:43David Weisburd?

  That's it for today's episode of How I Invest. If this conversation gave you new insights or ideas, do me a quick favor. Share with one person in your network who'd find it valuable or leave a short review wherever you listen. This helps more investors discover the show and keeps us bringing you these conversations week after week. Thank you for your continued support.