Pod Insights The Sporkful Pho The Love Of Slurping Noodles (Reheat) About this episode We're reheating this episode in honor of Chef Charles Phan, owner of The Slanted Door, who recently died. In 2016, he showed us the right way to eat the Vietnamese noodle soup pho. Then we take a deep dive into the science of soup slurping with a researcher who studies the mechanics of eating.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dan Pashman? As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean, whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker protein products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker protein
0:42 Dan Pashman? products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker. Available at a store near you.
1:01 Dan Pashman? Hey, everyone. Dan here with another Sporkful reheat for you. And this one we're bringing to you in memory of the acclaimed chef, Charles Fan, who recently died at the age of 62. I was so sorry to hear that he passed away. I was so glad that I got the chance to meet him and interview him in person. He really popularized modern Vietnamese cuisine in America. He was instrumental with his restaurant, The Slanted Door, which has locations in San Ramon, Napa, and in France. And I just remember him as being a guy who was super knowledgeable, super passionate, but also just no BS. Like if I said something that was wrong or made a sense, he would just like shoot me down. He's also the guy who taught me that in Vietnam, at a fudge shop, you could ask for like extra beef fat, like a beef fat floater on top. Like, I just, I still, I want to go to Vietnam just to do that. I really enjoyed getting
1:45 Dan Pashman? to meet Charles in person. He was generous and genuine, and I really will miss him. This episode also includes some pretty hardcore nerding out on the science of slurping noodles. It's a good one. This is an episode that I think back on all the time. Now, remember, there's a Sporkful you'd like us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat. Please let us know. Send us an email or voice memo to [email protected] . Include your first name, location, which episode you'd like us to reheat, and why. Thanks so much, and enjoy.
2:14 Speaker 01 Taste the broth, see if you like it. You could always add more stuff to it. Never put hoisin's in there. Most white people, they pour the hoisin right in and they kill my broth. So I like to slurp it down.
2:23 Dan Pashman? This is Chef Charles Phan. He's probably the most famous Vietnamese-American chef in the country. His restaurant in San Francisco is called The Slanted Door. And I'm sitting in front of this steaming hot bowl of pho that Charles just made for me. Pho is a Vietnamese soup with rice noodles and this thinly, thinly sliced meat and a rich, delicate broth.
2:44 Speaker 01 I have to say, only broth that tastes like this is broth when I have in Vietnam. This is what I remember. You walk in, you smell beef, you smell butters, like a butcher shop, you know?
2:54 Dan Pashman? A bowl of pho also comes with all these sides that you can add as you eat. There's Thai basil and bean sprouts, lime, and I love it. I love pho. It has all these different flavors coming together, so many different bites that you can compose. But as I told Charles, pho also kind of stresses me out. One of the things that I think is kind of fun about pho, but also a little intimidating to maybe white folks and people who haven't eaten it that much, is the sort of interactive element of it.
3:19 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
3:20 Dan Pashman? Because I think there's sort of the fear that like, what if I do it wrong?
3:24 Speaker 01 Well, you're not gonna die, first of all.
3:32 Dan Pashman? Yeah, you're not gonna die, but you can definitely screw it up. And you just take, is this sriracha?
3:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:38 Dan Pashman? Take the sriracha, you put it right in the broth?
3:40 Speaker 01 No. A lot of people do that. I hate that.
3:43 Dan Pashman? Tell me how you do it.
3:44 Speaker 01 The sriracha and all that is really meant for you dip the meat, take the meat, dip the sriracha. But the minute you put that sriracha into the broth, you kind of ruin the broth. If somebody already perfected the broth, why are you messing with it, you know?
3:58 Dan Pashman? This was not reducing my pho anxiety. Then, it got worse. Have I been using my chopsticks backwards all this time? This is embarrassing.
4:08 Dan Pashman? I totally would use my chopstick backwards.
4:10 Speaker 01 That's another show.
4:13 Dan Pashman? Today on The Sporkful, Chef Charles Phan sets me straight on pho. Then later in the show, we'll do a deep dive on the science of soup slurping with a researcher who knows all about the minutia of eating.
4:24 Speaker 02 I have a student studying animal tongues. She's known as Tongue Girl over in our lab. I mean, food is a very mechanical process, and I just wrote a grant today about how much saliva you produce when you eat.
4:36 Dan Pashman? That's all coming up, stick around.
4:46 Dan Pashman? This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess over the details of eating to uncover truths about food and people. I went into my interview with chef Charles Phan, looking for guidance, really. Like I said, I love pho, but I always felt like I just wasn't eating it right. Like, there was a flavor combination that I wanted to unlock, and I thought it was there, somewhere in that bowl, but I just couldn't find the key. I thought Charles could help. Now, a bit more about pho. It's spelled P-H-O, but it's not pronounced pho, it's pronounced pho. The beef is sliced really thin, and they drop it in the soup raw, and then the hot broth cooks the meat in the bowl.
5:28 Dan Pashman? And that broth, whoa. I mean, Charles just takes six hours to cook, and that broth is fatty, but it's light. It's a little salty and a little spicy. It's just so good. And Charles knows it. Right.
5:43 Speaker 01 I just love the purity of the broth, and you should enjoy it, and should never dump stuff in it. And I just, I see it all the time. It drives me bonker. I don't know where that started from. People in this country had this fascination towards sauce. And they, everything, like, we sell a steam bun, they ask for sauce. But they don't do it, you know, you don't go to Subway and say, "Give me some sauce, order my sandwich." But somehow, they eat a steam bun from a Chinese restaurant, and it's like, "Where's the sauce? Where's the sriracha?"
6:10 Dan Pashman? But in this sort of, like, I guess I would say dumbed-down, American adaptation of a lot of Asian food, so much of it is just about taking some meat or vegetables and dumping sauce on top. In the, in the not-as-good versions of the food, I'm saying, that sort of has become very popular.
6:28 Speaker 01 I don't know. I mean, there are a lot of bad people making a lot of bad food. But it's just, I'm just talking about the act of eating.
6:35 Dan Pashman? One of the things that I struggle with when I eat pho is there's so many great flavors and components that are kind of all coming together. You have the jalapenos, you have these different herbs, you have the noodles, you have the meat, you have the broth. I feel compelled to try to get all of these things together into one amazing, mind-altering bite.
6:53 Speaker 01 This is not a hamburger. You don't have to shove the whole thing into your face, so. So you ought to do one thing at a time, you know, you ought to do um like I would drink and enjoy the basil with that and take a bite of the noodle separately. And if you're ready for the bean sprout, you know, in fact, you don't want to dump all the stuff at once. What happens is you're cooling the soup down, right? And then I think soup temperature is very important. Once it gets cold, it doesn't, you know, that's why we heat up the bowl. Um, and this is like, no, no, I'm sticking your chopsticks straight up.
7:28 Dan Pashman? Oh, sorry.
7:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, like you gotta put it down. That's like some bad juju almond almond stuff.
7:34 Dan Pashman? Oh, no.
7:35 Speaker 01 Um, but just don't stick it up like you stick a fork in a haystack.
7:40 Dan Pashman? Okay, you can't have the the eating end of the chopsticks sitting in the soup.
7:44 Speaker 01 The food sticking up. I don't know why, but.
7:47 Dan Pashman? You just can't.
7:48 Speaker 01 Well, they tell you these things as an Asian kid, like if you leave a lot of rice in the bowl, you're gonna marry an ugly woman because because you don't finish your food.
7:56 Dan Pashman? How's your love life?
7:57 Speaker 01 No, I got a beautiful wife, so I eat all my food. What are you talking about?
8:02 Dan Pashman? But isn't it funny that now even as an adult, when I would drop my chopsticks into the pho and they're sticking up that way, even now you had like a visceral reaction, like,
8:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, my my uncle used to hit me across the table like with his chopstick, you know, smack me.
8:16 Dan Pashman? I want to get back to the idea of the perfect bite of pho. I'm not talking about shoving it. It's not about quantity. I'm just saying that when I see this many different ingredients together in one dish, my instinct is that there must be a way to combine them all in in in some sort of perfect nirvana bite that is going to like.
8:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, but but that's your, I mean, like, first of all, like, there's no way you're gonna get the jalapeno, the basil, they're all different distinct thing, the bean sprout. So they're meant to eat like individual bite with the broth. That so you're saying that you want to have the basil, the Thai chili, the the jalapeno, the bean sprout and the beef and a new all in one bite and swallowing it.
9:00 Dan Pashman? Well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's not what it's for. It sounds like what you're saying is that pho is more like.
9:05 Speaker 01 It's it's not like a. Fancy pairing, I mean, they're meant to eat in his kind of own thing, you know, so. It's a very individual preference. I mean. You know, you're talking to a guy who like to eat their sandwiches in layers, so. I'm a little biased, you know, I don't shove the whole thing in my mouth. I like to eat and enjoy each item's flavor.
9:30 Dan Pashman? Now, typically, pho comes with, you get the chopsticks and you get the spoon.
9:34 Speaker 01 Right.
9:35 Dan Pashman? Is there anything you use the spoon for, other than the broth?
9:39 Speaker 01 If you wanna be really elegant in front of a lady, then you put the noodle in your spoon. If you don't care like me, I just slurp it.
9:48 Dan Pashman? Oh, slurping. Well, let's get to slurping. Tell me about your slurping technique.
9:53 Speaker 01 I slurp if there's no pretty people in front of me.
9:58 Speaker 01 Nobody's watching, I slurp. But if you're a little bit more serious business conversation, then. Then you wouldn't do that. You take your spoon and slowly bring that up. But I never like to do that, because I lose all the heat. So I like to slurp it down with the bowl in my face. But if I'm in a serious meeting, chances are I'm gonna sacrifice my noodle soup and let it die and. More focus and hopefully I can close the deal.
10:21 Dan Pashman? That's how you've gotten so far by, uh, sometimes the focus is not on the food, is what you're telling me.
10:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:27 Dan Pashman? One of the things that I think is interesting is that. I asked you about, you know, getting the different components of the dish together into one bite. To me, a soup would be a dish where you have these different components, but they're. In theory, they're, you know, it's greater than the sum of its parts. They all come together into one bite, one dish. But it's clear from talking to you that that's not what this is, right? Separately from that, you're also talking about how Americans are always asking for sauce. And you're like, what the hell? We don't need any sauce. This is delicious as it is. In essence, with pho, it's not a soup. Really what it is, is a dish in which the broth is like the sauce.
11:06 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
11:08 Dan Pashman? So you don't need more sauce because the broth is the sauce?
11:10 Speaker 01 That's the vehicle already.
11:12 Dan Pashman? So that's what it is. That's what people need to understand.
11:14 Speaker 01 Now, if you're in the pho shop, you would ask for extra fat. Some of the shop-
11:20 Dan Pashman? You can ask for that?
11:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. So-
11:22 Dan Pashman? Oh, snap.
11:23 Speaker 01 So, because in Vietnam and some of the better shop, if you get there before 8 o'clock, you get there by 7, there's marrow that floats at the top. That's another extra price that you can ask for. You want marrow and fat. So you literally get the bone marrow and technically wolf that down with a piece of, you know, donut. It's not good for you, but it's really good.
11:56 Dan Pashman? That's Chef Charles Phan. His restaurant in San Francisco is called The Slanted Door. He's also the author of a cookbook called The Slanted Door: Modern Vietnamese Food. And after talking to him, I feel a lot better about my pho game. What I learned is that I was, I was just approaching it all wrong. To put it in sporkful terms, you know, like I was trying to find one amazing, all encompassing bite that I could perfect and then repeat over and over again. I was looking for bite consistency. But that's not what you're supposed to be looking for when you eat pho. You're supposed to look for bite variety. So now, when I eat pho, I think of it more like a buffet in a bowl. Coming up, we'll dig in on one of the topics that I just sort of touched on with Charles: slurping. Is there a right and a wrong way to slurp?
12:41 Dan Pashman? What are the mechanics at play when we slurp soup and noodles? Is there a way to slurp noodles without splattering sauce and broth all over myself? These are the questions that keep me up at night. Stick around, we'll get the answers.
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15:20 Dan Pashman? Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. You ever like go to our show page in your podcasting app and you're scrolling back and you're like, oh, that that's like a good episode. Why? How did I miss that? Well, you missed it because you're probably not following our show in your podcasting app. And it's really important that you do. So please do this right now. Go to our show page in your podcasting app of choice. If it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify, you click follow. Other apps, maybe it's a plus sign, or a heart, or a favorite, or the word subscribe, whatever it is in your app. It's really important that you click it. That way you won't miss great episodes. Super quick and easy. You can do it right now. Thank you so much. Now, back to this week's reheat.
16:01 Dan Pashman? All right, let's get to slurping. I've always been fascinated by the science and mechanics of slurping. Like, does it actually cool down hot liquids? What are the physics at play? Are there ways to do it that will actually make your food more or less delicious? Fortunately, I found the perfect guy to answer these questions. David Hu is a professor of mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech, and he's definitely a kindred spirit. He's obsessed with the tiniest details of eating, from how our tongues work, to the role of saliva in eating, to, yes, slurping.
16:34 Speaker 02 Slurping, it's an interesting thing because it brings two things into the mouth: the soup and the air above the soup, which is where a lot of the, you know, a lot of the flavor is.
16:46 Dan Pashman? And are you actually cooling the temperature of the soup when you slurp?
16:51 Speaker 02 Well, I actually kind of like getting my mouth spurned, but that's kind of a masochistic thing.
16:56 Dan Pashman? That'll be for another episode.
17:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, I don't think it tastes good unless I come back with an injury.
17:04 Dan Pashman? Full contact soup consumption.
17:07 Speaker 02 So I mean, you notice when it's really, really hot, like when it's almost still boiling, you still want to take a little, and you can still drink it. Like if I have a boiling soup that's still boiling in front of me, I can actually take tiny little sips. And what I'll do is just change the ratio of the air to the liquid. The thing is, our lungs are really powerful. We can bring a lot more air than soup. So you could imagine, you know, when you exhale, your lungs, you have this whole liter full of air that comes out. You can really use all that air and basically the heat from the soup will get absorbed into the air and the soup will go down in temperature, not so that it's cold, but just so that you don't get burnt, which is this threshold at which the cells in your mouth just, just don't like it anymore. Slurping soup is kind of like beginner level slurping. Slurping noodles can be highly dangerous.
17:52 Speaker 02 So it really is more for the advanced, advanced level.
17:55 Dan Pashman? So really, I guess the issue is that you're slurping in a noodle and depending on a variety of factors, that noodle can more or less fishtail. The, the end of the noodle will wiggle around. And that can-
18:08 Speaker 02 That's right.
18:09 Dan Pashman? -spray whatever is on the noodle all over you and everyone you're eating with if you're not careful. Is that-
18:14 Speaker 02 You could create a basically mealtime disaster.
18:18 Dan Pashman? That's right. Especially-
18:20 Speaker 02 I mean, especially imagine, yeah.
18:21 Dan Pashman? Little kids.
18:22 Speaker 02 With little kids, right.
18:23 Dan Pashman? Exactly. I was just going there, totally. Do your kids slurp their noodles?
18:26 Speaker 02 They really like slurping noodles. So we're Chinese, so our noodles don't have that much sauce. If they were Italian, I mean, it could be, it could be really dangerous.
18:34 Dan Pashman? Why? What's the difference between an Italian-style noodle and a Chinese-style noodle that makes the Italian one more dangerous?
18:40 Speaker 02 It's not so much the noodle, it's with the, um, sort of the weaponry that covers the noodle. You have-
18:47 Dan Pashman? The sauces.
18:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, because it basically goes ballistic. So, things are fine if you do it slowly. But let's say you are in a rush and you do it at a high speed. So your lungs, when you sneeze, you can actually generate airflow that are like 25, 50 miles an hour. You can generate like really high speeds. It's a powerful weapon, your lungs. And you're applying all this force on this tiny little piece of flexible spaghetti. So if you were bringing in sort of a stiff rod, it wouldn't be a big deal. It's the flexibility of the spaghetti that makes it a weapon. So you bring this in and you imagine your slurp, this noodle is like a foot long. And you're slowly, it starts slowly because you want to start carefully. And your mouth is lubricated, so it actually has very little friction. It comes in at pretty high speed, but it also accelerates.
19:33 Speaker 02 It gets faster and faster. And moreover, the sort of remaining part of the noodle that's outside your mouth gets shorter and shorter. And so as a result, that smaller and smaller part gets higher and higher acceleration, and it starts really getting fast. And when you have high speeds applied to really flexible objects, they start generating what we call instabilities, whipping around. So it might be flapping just a little bit as it comes in, but as by the time it gets to halfway its length, it flaps at a higher frequency and a higher amplitude. And the last three inches, it's just going all over the place. It's like, you might even hit your own face with it.
20:11 Dan Pashman? So how exactly does the thickness of the sauce determine how much splatter you're going to get? Why does thickness matter?
20:19 Speaker 02 So the thickness, engineers call it the viscosity. And like honey has a really high viscosity, water has low viscosity. And it tells you how much it clings to stuff. If you're eating really thin sauce, when you pick a noodle up out of the bowl, it doesn't have that much on it. But if you, I don't know, want to eat something with thick sauce, you could have more sort of debris on the noodle as you're sucking it in. You could have enough sauce on a noodle that could fill a whole spoon. It's like taking a spoon, holding it back, and just flicking it at the table. And that's the danger of thick sauce.
20:50 Dan Pashman? Is there another, like you talked about how the noodle, as you slurp it in, and it becomes shorter and shorter because less and less of it is outside your mouth, it will increase in speed. You have more velocity, which increases instability. So is there something I can do with the speed at which I slurp to reduce that sort of fishtailing effect that you get with the very end of the noodle?
21:11 Speaker 02 The easiest one is you could just eat shorter noodles. Now, when you have a longer noodle, you're just pulling it in, and it just gets faster and faster. So if you had basically noodles that were half the length, I mean, this is not that much fun, right? It's only fun when you can actually endanger yourself. But you can imagine.
21:27 Dan Pashman? Do you tell your kids that?
21:29 Speaker 02 No, no, they're not young, they're not old enough. If I told them that, it'd be havoc.
21:34 Speaker 02 It's only because we're professionals.
21:35 Dan Pashman? Right, no, naturally, no.
21:36 Speaker 02 You can also imagine having pasta that's long and skinny on one end and then really heavy on the other end. If you basically slurped in the skinny end, it wouldn't flap around because it would basically, you know, while this spaghetti is trying to break the speed limit, it gets heavier and heavier. Your sort of kinetic energy, the energy that you're putting in to whip this thing around, can't compensate for the fact this thing is getting sort of thicker and heavier. So that, I don't think, would also be so dangerous because then, while you're accelerating it, it just doesn't, can't lift off your own plate and go airborne.
22:05 Dan Pashman? I feel that when I slurp, I often end up with air going into my stomach. And then that fills up my stomach with a lot of air over many slurps. And I get a similar phenomenon that I get if I drink soda, which is that you sort of feel full and bloated. And then you may burp and release that air and then suddenly realize that you're more hungry again and that you didn't, you could have eaten more. You could have had more soup and then you didn't. That's something that I call slurper's remorse. Is there any science to back up this condition that I've identified?
22:37 Speaker 02 So our lab, we've been studying the digestive system. So the process of peristalsis, probably it will not allow air to go down. It really is pretty good at getting, getting just the food. The apigotis is also good for only getting air down the lungs and not, not food. So it's a pretty finely tuned process. I mean, I can imagine if you eat very fast, you could start to get confused. And I think that's what happens when you get this, what was the technical term you said?
23:00 Dan Pashman? Slurper's remorse.
23:01 Speaker 02 I mean, you also notice you can only eat so fast. It's because these muscles have a maximum speed. They can only really contract so quickly.
23:06 Dan Pashman? Okay. So, so if I feel like I'm getting slurper's remorse, it's not the slurping that's at fault, it's my own just eating too fast. And maybe if I slow down, then the systems will work better.
23:17 Speaker 02 That's right.
23:18 Dan Pashman? All right. Well, Dr. David Hu, enjoy that next bowl of soup. Don't burn your mouth too badly.
23:23 Speaker 02 Thanks. It was great being on the show.
23:34 Dan Pashman? That's Professor David Hu from Georgia Tech. So is there a right and wrong way to slurp? Well, there's a recent study out, actually, about how you breathe when you eat and how it affects taste. So here's the bottom line. If you breathe at a slow, steady pace while you eat, the aroma from the food that's in your mouth will naturally waft up to your nose, and you'll smell it and your taste sensation will be heightened. But if you eat too fast and you start gasping or gulping air, you'll suck those aromas down into your stomach before you've had a chance to actually smell them. On the other hand, if you take super slow, shallow breaths, there won't be enough airflow to bring the aromas up to your nose. So the key in breathing and slurping is the same: moderation.
24:19 Dan Pashman? This show is a production of WNYC Studios and The Sporkful. It's produced by Anne Sannick and me. Engineering help today from Irene Trudell in New York and Ellen Reinhardt at Georgia Public Broadcasting. Music help from Black Label Music. Special thanks to Joanna Solotaroff and Paula Schuman. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
24:35 Speaker 04 And this is Kelly from Mandan, North Dakota, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
24:59 Dan Pashman? This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is
25:09 Speaker 02 Jared O'Connell.
25:10 Dan Pashman? The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
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26:47 Dan Pashman? Hey, it's Dan here. Thank you so much, first of all, for tuning into this podcast every week. We really appreciate it. And I want to let you know, if you want to hear new episodes ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts, or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Thanks.
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