#2462 - Aaron Siri

Aaron Siri is an attorney and managing partner of Siri & Glimstad LLP, where he focuses on civil litigation, constitutional law, and vaccine-related injury claims. He is the host of the podcast “Informed with Aaron Siri” and the author of “Vaccines, Amen: The Religion of Vaccines.”www.aaronsiri.substack.comwww.youtube.com/@AaronSiriSGwww.aaronsiriofficial.comwww.sirillp.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Montana Knife Company - working knives for working people. Head over to https://montanaknifecompany.com to shop now. This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  So you had a pile of notes and then you just folded them up. Like, did you commit them to memory?

• 0:16Speaker 03

  No, I just, these two things. I have the links I sent you guys.

• 0:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 0:20Speaker 03

  And just some stuff there.

• 0:21Joe Rogan?

  I just saw the pieces of paper that you folded. I was like, what's in there?

• 0:26Joe Rogan?

  How did, first of all, I want to, I want to talk you through, like, when you were a younger man, before you had looked into this, what was your opinions on medical science? What was your opinions on vaccines? Were you skeptical? Or did you just kind of assume that everything that we're told is exactly how it is? And the experts have only the best interests of human beings in mind and not, not money?

• 0:49Speaker 03

  I had what you would effectively call the mainstream view. Vaccines saved humanity.

• 0:53Joe Rogan?

  Me too.

• 0:53Speaker 03

  We'd all be dead without them. You know, there are the, there was the Bible, giving it to Moses at Sinai, and then there were vaccines.

• 1:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  That's basically, you know.

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  I think it's anybody that didn't consider themselves a fool. You know, if you, you would have to be a fool, like a real fool, to ignore all this medical science, which is the reason why there's so many people alive today that would have died. And a lot of that's true, like penicillin, antibiotics, there's a lot of stuff that's saved a lot of people's lives. But the vaccine won. Until this COVID epidemic, I would have never questioned it. I mocked anti-vaxxers. I was like, these people are silly. Don't they know all the good things that vaccines have done? And the, there's the blatant propaganda that we were force-fed, like one of those ducks are trying to make foie gras with. It just made me stop and pause and go, is the whole thing like this?

• 1:49Joe Rogan?

  Is this whole thing just a dirty money laundering operation? Because it kind of seems like that's at least part of the reason why they were telling people to get boosted when they knew it wasn't working, and, and telling young people that didn't need it to. They wanted to make a lot of money. That's the only reason why you would do any of those things. After a certain amount of information is out? And so it just made me stop and think about the whole thing. And go, well, why would I assume that this is the one area where pharmaceutical drug companies, doctors, everybody's been totally honest in this one area?

• 2:25Joe Rogan?

  When it's like a religious thing, if you question it. And that's why I love the title of your book.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  Yes. Vaccines, Amen.

• 2:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  The Religion of Vaccines.

• 2:36Joe Rogan?

  You, it's, that's what it is. It's a religion for secular, intelligent people with a higher education.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  And it causes incredible cognitive dissonance for anybody out there to come to the conclusion that the CDC and the FDA and our public health authorities and what the entire medical establishment has been telling you may not be accurate about vaccines. Because like what you just said, the claim that you're a flat-earther, you're an anti-vaxer, a zers, and they're used as a way to say you are really out there and dumb.

• 3:16Joe Rogan?

  They're completely equal in their impact.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  And so it takes incredible cognitive dissonance to say there are real problems with vaccines. But vaccines really sit in their own little universe. They're unlike any other medical product. They're not like penicillin. They're not like any other drugs. They're not like any other product out there, any other product in this room, anything out there, for one major reason. Every other product that exists, I can sue the company. I can hold them accountable if that product injures or kills you or your child on the basis that product could have been safer.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  The only product, and I mean this literally, the only product in America where you cannot sue to say, had you made that product safer, my child wouldn't be dead, my child wouldn't be seriously injured, they wouldn't have a neurological disorder, they wouldn't have immunological disorder, they wouldn't have a nervous system disorder, they wouldn't have a cardiac issue, are childhood vaccines and child vaccines used by adults. It's the only one. And that's because of a law called the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. It gave pharma companies that incredibly special immunity. Now, just to put that into context, okay?

• 4:42Speaker 03

  And I'll tie this back in a second as to how we ended up with this notion of this belief, religion in vaccines, because, you know, given industry 40 years of unopposed ability to influence, they're going to get pretty dang far, and they did with vaccines. And so, you know, a lot of industries face a crossroads where their products are causing more harm than good. Gas tanks used to explode. What did they do? They had a better gas tank, all right? Building materials had asbestos, caused cancer. What did they do? They make better building materials, all right? Did they give them immunity? No, of course not.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  But in the instance of vaccines, leading up to 1986, there were only three routine vaccines. That's it. That's all there was. A child following the CDC's schedule in 1986 got three injections on or before their first birthday, okay? Those three products were causing so much harm and injury that every manufacturer of them went out of business, and that was the MMR vaccine, the DTP, and the OPV vaccine. Every single one, from six down to one, or for the pertussis vaccine, six down to one for measles, about three down to one for polio. And with one company left for each, instead of forcing them to do what every other industry

• 6:07Speaker 03

  has to do, like I said, make better building materials without asbestos, make better cars that don't explode, go down the chain of different products out there, Congress did something completely unique. It said, you know what? We're just going to give you immunity. We're going to make it. So that no company, excuse me, no individual, no parent, no child can sue you for the injuries and deaths caused by your vaccine products. That is what the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act in 1986 did. And not only for those three products, but for any other childhood vaccine thereafter. And what that effectively has done is given 40 years for the industry to promote their products, no pushback. When you read about a problem with a car, where are you reading about it from?

• 6:52Speaker 03

  Usually a class action lawsuit in the paper, right? You're not going to read about that in vaccines typically. And because of that, you ended up where we are. Anyways, there's a lot more detail to that, but I'll stop there for now. No, please keep going. Well, I mean, when you think about what makes products safer, right? Because I've got a law firm with over 100 individuals. I'm the managing partner of the firm. Half my firm does all types of plate design class actions. We can hold companies accountable for almost anything. Your data, we do hundreds of data breach cases, genetic privacy cases, biometric privacy cases. We do all kinds, all types of lawsuits of that nature, by the way. And New York Times loves those lawsuits, by the way.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  That stuff, nobody attacks me for, okay? Oh, making my privacy better? Oh, protecting me from cars that explode? Oh, thank you. Make vaccines safer? You want to kill everybody, okay. But that's where it's really weird. But, well, here's where I think I can make, I'm hoping I can make it make sense without causing cognitive dissonance. So going back to how we make products safer in America, or anywhere, okay? It's not the government. Governments don't make products safer. Look at extremely authoritarian regimes where there was very little free market, like the former USSR. You think products were safe? No.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  What makes products safe? It's the economic self-interest of the company. It's the economic interest of the company to make the product safer. Why? You probably own stock, right? And where do you want your stock to go? Up or down? How do you want it to go? You want it to go up or you want it to go down? Where do you want it to go? Up. You want it to go up. Okay. So do all the investors. Right. So does everybody who owns that stock. So does Wall Street. So does the CEO. So does the board. So does everybody, the people who have the stock. Everybody involved. All the employees that have stock options, including usually the major ones. Everybody wants it to go up. If you lose money, it doesn't go up.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  So normally, the interest to assure a product is safer is aligned with the profit motive. Because if your product causes injury and harm, then you're going to lose money. So you'll want to know typically. You have an economic self-interest as a corporation to know. Not because you're altruistic. Not because you're moral. Not because you're ethical. Just because you have that economic self-interest to assure the product is safe before you go to market and after you go to market. Okay? And that exists for every product in America with effectively one exception. Vaccines. That's really it.

• 9:37Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change? Your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone. It's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill and pocketing some savings for yourself. All the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Switch today at visible.com.

• 10:20Joe Rogan?

  The Visible plan starts at just $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and Network management details. This episode is brought to you by the Apple Sports App. Guys, this is the ultimate best time of the year to be a sports fan. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer. The calendar is stacked, but it can also be hard to keep track of it all. And that is where the Apple Sports App comes into play. It is the fastest and easiest way to stay on top of all the action. With scores and play-by-play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you

• 11:05Joe Rogan?

  follow are playing, that means you don't have to figure out when the games are on and how your team is doing, which is especially nice when you're following a bunch of teams and your friends are constantly blowing up the group chat. The Apple Sports App gives you all the important game details for your favorite sports teams, fast and simple. Download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone. After a year away, Canelo Alvarez is back in the ring October 31st, facing undefeated Christian Mobily live on The Zone, and DraftKings Sportsbook has you covered for the fight. With DraftKings Sportsbook, your number one sportsbook for live betting, you can stay

• 11:50Joe Rogan?

  connected as the action unfolds and makes your picks in real time. Whether you're locked in for the main event or watching the full card with friends, DraftKings Sportsbook gives you another way to follow the fights you already care about. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use the code ROGEN. New DraftKings Sportsbook customers can spend $5 and get $200 in total bonuses within 21 days. That's code ROGEN. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, call 1-800-MYRESSET. 21 and over, Virginia only. Eligibility restrictions apply. $50 in non-withdrawable bonus bets issued every seven days via click to claim for 21 days. Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Limited time offer.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  I'm going to show you one result of that in practice. Okay.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  When you think of drugs, and this will help, I think, tie into what you're saying about what happened with COVID. Most drugs are licensed based on multi-year placebo-controlled trials. Most of them. Why? Because the FDA requires it? Because the FDA is so great? No. Nothing to do with the FDA. It's because the company wants to know whether the drug is safe or not before it goes to market. Because you know what happens with the drug that they put out that's going to make 40 billion in revenue or 20 billion but causes 100 billion in harm? They end up upside down. So they want to know, to a reasonable degree, how safe the drug is before it goes to market.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  In an attempt not to cherry pick, as I did in my book, I found an article that listed the top four selling profitable drugs by Pfizer as of like 2020, 21 or something, 2019. Okay? And if you look at those four most profitable drugs, as I put in my book, each one has two to seven years of follow-up in the clinical trial that was relied upon to license that drug against a placebo-controlled group. Just to make sure everybody, I'm sure everybody knows what that means, but that just means a group that gets something inert. So this way, you give a group the experimental drug, you give a group the placebo, something inert, you track them for multiple years, and then you compare all the outcomes: cardiovascular

• 14:11Speaker 03

  outcomes, neurological outcomes, immunology, go down the list. Cancer rates, and you see the difference. You get a real, actual sense of the safety between those two for that product. In contrast, for most childhood vaccines...

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Instead of years, it's often days or weeks of safety review in the clinical trial. I would allow them to license them. Not a single, and I know that folks contest this all the time, but it's in the FDA literature. Not a single routine injected childhood vaccine was licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, save for the COVID vaccine, by the way, for children. It's the only one. Not a single one, okay? Nor was the vaccine, sometimes uses the control itself, licensed based on a placebo-controlled trial, nor anywhere down that chain.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  Chapter 10 of my book, I go through every vaccine. I go through, I have it all cited to the FDA licensed documents. You can listen to the talking heads, or you can rely on the primary sources from the FDA, which is why I call my book Vaccines Amen, because there's what they tell you, and then there's what the actual evidence shows, right? So that gives you an example of the outcome of not having an economic self-interest. With drugs, they have it, so they want to know the safety.

• 15:41Joe Rogan?

  Can I challenge you on that?

• 15:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:44Joe Rogan?

  What about Vioxx? Like, the Vioxx people knew that there was, one of the things that was revealed during the trial, is that they knew that there was going to be issues. They, I think the quote was, "We still think we'll do well." And that was one of the damning aspects of the email disclosure, because you got a chance to see how these guys talk about this drug that they're about to release. I think they wound up paying a percentage of the amount of money they made from the drug, but they made way more from the drug than they did the fine.

• 16:16Speaker 03

  No, I appreciate that challenge, and it's why I said when I was saying that they do the analysis of whether they're going to have 100 billion in loss or 40 billion in revenue. I'm not saying they won't put out a drug that causes harm.

• 16:30Joe Rogan?

  You're saying it can't cause too much harm?

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 16:33Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  They can't, they don't want to end up upside down. And remember, the whole reason a drug is licensed is because it can cause harm.

• 16:42Joe Rogan?

  The crazy thing about the Vioxx one is I think it killed somewhere north of 50,000 people, and they still made profit off of it, which is kind of bananas. They pulled it and made billions in profit.

• 16:58Joe Rogan?

  This is the darker aspect of this. If you were talking about companies that never did anything wrong and had the highest moral and ethical standards, and they're the ones, because it's not about money. It's about saving people's health, and it's about public safety, and we've got to make sure that we do this right, we're going to make sure we squash all the disinformation. But that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about these companies that have been fined billions, billions of dollars in criminal fines for fraud, for all kinds of shit. These are the people. And the idea that they wouldn't lie about vaccines, like, this is the one thing, they're going to tell you the truth. Ruthless capitalists attached to money and drugs. This is the one thing they're going to 100% tell you the truth about.

• 17:42Joe Rogan?

  That seems kind of kooky. That's a hard sell for anybody who's not ideologically captured. That's a hard sell.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I don't think you need to go down the road that there's some kind of evil nefariousness there.

• 17:56Joe Rogan?

  No. That's not what I'm saying.

• 17:57Speaker 03

  It's a broken economic and regulatory system from my perspective.

• 18:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  It's just a completely broken economic. To your point about Vioxx, right? So, in Vioxx, it caused incredible amount of harm, but they still decided that the benefits of it raised the risk. Do you know the story about the cars that used to explode? It's the classic case we learn in law school. And the gas tank, and, you know, these cars-

• 18:23Joe Rogan?

  Was it a Pinto?

• 18:24Speaker 03

  It was the Pintos, that's right. And a number of them exploded every year, burning the people inside them alive to death, right? Horrible way to go. And there was a lawsuit, and in that lawsuit, what they discovered was, the company had done an internal calculation, in which it did the math. What's it going to cost to actually fix all the gas tanks? What's that dollar number versus what's it going to cost to just pay out for those deaths every year for those people that we burn knowingly are going to die and burn to death in those cars? And the calculation was that it was going to cost less to pay out for the deaths. And that is what the internal document showed. And that, by the way, is in part the case, the quintessential case you learn in law school

• 19:09Speaker 03

  for why they have punitive damages. Because the punitive damages were there to force the company-

• 19:17Speaker 03

  To conform its conduct in exactly that scenario where the economics weren't going to do it, right? Even in something that horrible, when the market forces weren't sufficient, the economic self-interest wasn't there, you had to make it happen. How? Through punitive damages. I know there's a lot of, you know, news about punitive damages, oh, it's excessive and so forth, but that's what they're there for. They're there for that scenario where we're just holding them accountable. Now, go back to vaccines. Think about how incredibly harmful and how much harm these vaccines must do that they cannot survive on the market without this immunity from 1986. Think about that.

• 20:01Joe Rogan?

  If you were going to steel me on the argument against that.

• 20:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:04Joe Rogan?

  Wouldn't you say, look, these are, we can't have frivolous lawsuits against these people that are providing us the most important medication that's available to humans. The whole reason why we survive smallpox and polio and all these different things, it's these vaccines. Without them, we'd all be dead. This episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. I have used their knives for years. They are absolutely fantastic. The company was founded by one of the most experienced master bladesmiths in the world, my friend, Josh Smith. He has been making knives since he was a kid. He's been making knives for 30 years. He made his first hunting knife when he was 11 years old and became a master bladesmith at 19.

• 20:47Joe Rogan?

  This man loves knives, the construction of knives. They are absolutely next level. Everything is made right here in the USA, in Montana, and these knives are designed, tested, and built by hunters. They come insanely sharp out of the box and are crazy easy to sharpen. Montana Knife Company is a young company working hard to keep up with demand because these knives sell out in minutes. If you want one, head over to montanaknifecompany.com to see what's available now. Sign up for their email newsletter so you know when they restock and get in on their SMS notifications for special knife drops. My personal favorite blade is the Speedgoat 2.0. I use it all the time. It's an amazing knife.

• 21:30Joe Rogan?

  Montana Knife Company, working knives for working people.

• 21:33Speaker 03

  Let's just assume that the last part of what you said is true, which we know it's not. But with that said.

• 21:40Joe Rogan?

  We have steel manning it.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  Let's steel manning it.

• 21:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Easy response, okay?

• 21:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Drugs, drugs that are for very small populations, meaning not a lot of market, not a lot of sales, that cause incredible side effects, can survive in the market profitably. Think about that for a second. Why? Okay? Here's why. It's a little bit of legal stuff, but it's not that hard. It's not that bad, okay? The primary claim you would typically bring against a product is the claim that it could have been made safer. It's called a design defect claim. It's a claim where I say, hey, had you put in a two-cent stopper on that gas tank, it wouldn't have exploded.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  If you'd have put in a one penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd have had my finger, okay? Design defect claim. The claim you could have made a product safer. It is the primary claim you would bring for a product, okay? Injury claim. So, how do you protect against it? You make the product as technologically safe as possible, right? So, if you have a drug that causes incredible side effects, that we just talked about, make the drug as safe as possible. Make sure that there are no contaminants. Make sure that you use the best possible ingredients. Make sure the combination, right? The safest adjuvant. Go down the road. That's number one. Number two, the second most, the second way you hold them accountable is you bring a

• 23:13Speaker 03

  claim called a failure to warn claim. I failed to warn you about the harm that the drug could have caused, okay? And so, what do you have to do there to protect yourself? The company has to disclose all the potential harms. If it has it right there in the package insert, and you get it, and it says, hey, it can cause this, this, this, this, this, you were told. You chose to still take the product. They made it as safe as technologically feasible, they disclosed the risks, and that is how companies typically limit their liability with medical products, with drug products, okay? Why can't they do that with vaccines? Why can't they just make them as safe as technologically feasible, can't sue them for design defect, and disclose all the actual risks in the package insert, okay? The logical conclusion is, and one other point that, and then I'll respond to your steel man, okay?

• 23:57Speaker 03

  And it's this, all right? It's been 40 years for some of these vaccines. Hb vaccine, for example, licensed in 86 and 89, the two standalones. It's been 40 years. You're telling me they still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? You're giving it to millions of kids a year, you're making billions of dollars on the sales of this product, and you still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? Please.

• 24:19Joe Rogan?

  Okay, if I was a silly person.

• 24:22Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:22Joe Rogan?

  I would probably say these vaccines are more important than any medication that's ever existed, because they are the reason why we are here, because that's how we survive smallpox and polio and the measles and everything else. And without them, we would have perished. We would have never achieved the technological states that we're at, because we wouldn't have been healthy. We would have gone through mass plagues.

• 24:49Speaker 03

  Okay, I'll respond to that.

• 24:50Joe Rogan?

  So because of that, it's just important that they stay in business.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  Well, a few things.

• 24:56Joe Rogan?

  And we trust the science. You should trust the science, Aaron.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  Trust the science, yes, believe.

• 24:59Joe Rogan?

  Aaron, trust the science.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  Yes, sir.

• 25:04Joe Rogan?

  Amen.

• 25:05Speaker 03

  Amen.

• 25:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I try not to do too much believing, and I try to do a little bit of evidence-based thinking. But any event, look, when it comes to these products, I save my beliefs for religion, the unanswerables, where to go when we die.

• 25:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  And so forth. I have to take a leap of faith, and I do it when I need to, but you don't need to with these products. Okay, on the first part of what you said, first of all, there are products probably that are far more important to humanity at the moment, no question about it, than vaccines, even assuming it had the results that you just claimed, which I'll address in a second. Imagine you said, "Look, cars are essential. I mean, cars, you can't get an ambulance, you can't get to the hospital. Without cars, you can't get to work, you can't get your kids to school. I mean, it's essential to a functioning society, so let's give cars immediate liability." Intuitively, you'd say, "That's ridiculous." On the deaths point, that is one of the myths. That is one of the mythologies around vaccines that has developed over time.

• 26:02Speaker 03

  This notion that everybody in America die without vaccines. In chapter seven of my book, and I lay it out for every single disease, and what I do there is I say, okay, how many deaths were there in America the year before the vaccine was first introduced? Or widely used, or so forth, okay? In any real degree. And what you find is, if you go down the list, there were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe a thousand or so deaths from each disease for which we vaccinate. The further back in time you go, the larger the number in that, dozens to a thousand or so deaths, okay?

• 26:42Speaker 03

  For example, measles, the dreaded measles that they say everybody will die from. No measles vaccine, we're all gonna die, right? That is the impression they give you. You have any idea how many people died of measles in the years before there was a measles vaccine in the United States?

• 26:56Joe Rogan?

  How many?

• 26:57Speaker 03

  About 400 a year.

• 26:58Joe Rogan?

  That's it?

• 26:59Speaker 03

  That's it. 400 a year, died in the United States at a time when everybody had measles, which comes out to about 1 in 450,000 Americans dying of measles. That's in the CDC. Anybody listening to this who's like, come on, that's not true. CDC mortality documents on the CDC website, cited in my book, 400.

• 27:18Joe Rogan?

  And don't about 50,000 people every year die from the flu?

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Well, that statistic includes bacterial deaths that they say are potentially the result from having influenza, but...

• 27:35Joe Rogan?

  So your immune system gets weakened and then something else hits you? And that kills you? Is that the idea behind it?

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Well, that's just the way they gather the data, is the way I'll put it. But with influenza...

• 27:50Speaker 03

  Well, let me finish up with measles. Because I think this is important on the measles one, and I can deal with influenza as well. But on the measles one, just to really, because you're saying, well, everybody would die without these. I don't think people think of influenza, by the way. They think of measles.

• 28:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  They think of those diseases.

• 28:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  I don't ever hear anybody say to me, well, everybody will die of influenza without influenza vaccines. Everybody, it's available, everybody can get it. The mortality hasn't changed much. In fact, if you look at the mortality of influenza before influenza vaccines were widespread, we're not doing that great. Okay, anyway, putting that aside for a moment.

• 28:27Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, isn't there data that shows that if you get it, you're more likely to get other colds?

• 28:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have a whole giant footnote in my book about this, and I actually tweeted this out and did a stuff stick about this, a whole series of articles. Studies that show that those that have had the influenza vaccines, maybe these studies often have around the same rate of influenza, maybe they have less respiratory influenza infections, but they, many studies show they have multiple times the rate of other respiratory infections. So, good job. Maybe you've reduced your risk of influenza by this much, but you've increased your risk of another different respiratory disease by that much.

• 29:12Joe Rogan?

  How much is it? How much have they increased?

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Depends on the study. Some studies show four times risk, some studies show three times risk. Yeah. I mean, literally three, four. I mean, huge percentages. So, and they're statistically significant in these studies. And so, you know, when you're looking at a, now, these are all retrospective epidemiological studies, and, but when you do a retrospective epi study, which means you take existing data, and then you study it versus saying, okay, we're going to do a study and follow people going forward. Okay? If you find like a 1.3 time, which means 30% increased risk, like that's a published report finding. This is three, 400% increased risk. Yes. And in many of these studies, it's inconvenient data, so obviously it's not talked about.

• 29:55Joe Rogan?

  Right. So 400 people's not a whole lot. I'm sure, I mean, it's sad when 400 people die. But it's also one of those diseases that when you're a child, it's much more survivable, right, than adult. Adult, it's rough, isn't it?

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. So measles, the ideal age to get it is not when you're an infant, which in the pre-vaccine era, infants typically did not get measles because they got maternal immunity from the mother. And you don't want to get it as an adult because it is more likely to cause problems, which again, in the pre-vaccine era, wasn't a problem because everybody virtually got it as a child.

• 30:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:38Joe Rogan?

  And when you got it as a child, my recollection of it was the episode of the Brady Bunch. Do you remember?

• 30:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:45Joe Rogan?

  Remember that episode?

• 30:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were laughing about it.

• 30:47Joe Rogan?

  Let's watch this. Find that clip and let's watch it because it's so indicative of what measles was actually like in the culture of the people that would get it all the time versus this boogeyman of today. I mean, it is, it's so stark. It's so, I mean, it's like, imagine the kid coming home, "Hey mom, I've got AIDS, I've got to stay home from school." It's not that, right?

• 31:11Speaker 03

  It's the way that most folks who've had chickenpox think of chickenpox.

• 31:14Joe Rogan?

  Right. But we're told that it's killing people. We're told that it's killing people now. We're told that it's killing, it's always kids. We're told it's killing kids now. And look, if anybody dies from measles, I'm very sad. But I want to know, is it with measles? Remember the with COVID or from COVID? Like, what kind of condition were these people in before this hit them? Because some, I mean, that was the thing about COVID. It's like, yeah, it's fatal. If you have four plus comorbidities, that's, it's more, you're more likely to be fatal. And that was most of the people that wind up dying from it, right?

• 31:51Speaker 03

  That's almost certainly the case, and I can, I can add another data point to that, to help support that, which is that between 1900, and this is again, CDC data, between 1900 and the late 1950s, early 1960s, the mortality from measles declined in the United States by over 98%. You know what didn't cause that?

• 32:13Joe Rogan?

  Vaccines.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it didn't exist. I know. But, but...

• 32:18Joe Rogan?

  So immunity had become a herd thing, just like COVID-ish right now. Everybody basically has had COVID, or at least has been exposed to it by now. Here it is.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 05

  It's a whole episode. There's multiple clips. I don't know which one is the best one, but here's one.

• 32:35Joe Rogan?

  Just, just, let's just try. I think it's, he finds out he's coming over. Put on your headphones for a second, so we could hear this. Aaron.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 32:43Joe Rogan?

  Grab your headphones.

• 32:44Speaker 04

  No, are you sure it's the measles?

• 32:47Speaker 06

  Well, he certainly got all the symptoms. A slight temperature, a lot of dots, and a great big smile.

• 32:51Speaker 04

  A great big smile?

• 32:53Speaker 06

  No school for a few days.

• 32:57Speaker 06

  You've got measles. Golly, mothers are supposed to know everything, but do you have to keep proving it? Well, you've got a temperature too. What do you mean, two? Well, Peter was sent home from school a little while ago. Oh, what was his temperature? 101.1. Oh, is that all? I'm 101.2. Oh, Greg, you want my railroad. I'll be a sport. You can ride on it free. Thanks a lot. It's your turn, Peter.

• 33:24Joe Rogan?

  They're having a measles party.

• 33:26Speaker 06

  Oh, missed it.

• 33:29Speaker 06

  Boy, this is the life, isn't it? Yeah. If you have to get sick, sure can't beat the measles. That's right. No medicine. Inside or out. Like shots, I mean. Don't even mention shots. Yeah.

• 33:40Joe Rogan?

  Okay. I mean, am I crazy? Or have we gone through the one of the wildest gaslightings of anything ever? There's people out there that because of the things that you've said so far about the measles, will be 100% freaking out on Twitter. Right? But this is a window into how the American public thought. I know it's a television show, I know it's a sitcom, but you can't joke around about stuff that other people wouldn't think is funny. People would think that was funny, these kids saying, "If you're gonna get sick, you should get the measles." And everybody at home be like, "Oh, I wish I had a day off." That's how they thought of it.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, and to put hard data on it, going back to that statistic, over 98% reduction. Remember, it's not like COVID, Joe, because COVID, there was no immunity in the population. Right?

• 34:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  Measles has been around for forever, as far as we know, thousands of years. The year 1900 wasn't the beginning of herd immunity. 1900, measles already endemic. Everybody was getting measles. So every year, there's a few million people cohort that were getting it, and you had this decline, and so you have to ask yourself, what was the decline?

• 34:56Speaker 03

  It was probably better sanitation, better acute medical care, I mean, all kinds of things. And you know who could take credit for most of that stuff? Better sanitation, better living conditions, better, you name it. Probably public health authorities. Meaning, the improvement in acute care, the introduction of antibiotics, better living conditions, not having sewage in the street, you name it.

• 35:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Probably had a massive contributor to that reduction, but they never point to that. And there's one other really inconvenient data point with measles, and this is really where it gets upsetting for folks out there who you were just saying are gonna watch the show, and it's this.

• 35:37Speaker 03

  That over 98% reduction in mortality, there's no reason that that curve was not going to continue. Because pockets of the United States in the late 50s, early 60s were like a developing country. In a developing country, kids are going to die of any infectious disease because of extremely poor living conditions. And as those improved, most likely that 400 deaths also would have continued to decline. 4.2 million births in the United States in the late 50s, early 60s, about 3.8 million births today. So in fact, there's less children being born in America today than there was then. So you have a, you have a smaller cohort of babies, young children to infect. And, final data point, and it's this, and this is really, I know this is, this is going

• 36:22Speaker 03

  to cause cognitive dissonance for some, but studies that have looked at those that have had measles versus those that don't, find that those that have had measles have a statistically significant greater reduction in deaths from cardiovascular disease and various cancers. So I'll give you an example. There's a 20-year, 22-year prospective study in Japan, done by, funded by the government of Japan and major universities, that tracked 100,000 people in Japan for 22 years. And it found that those that had measles and mumps had a 20% statistically significant decline in deaths from cardiovascular disease.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Think about that for a second. Just think about that. About 800,000 Americans die of cardiovascular disease. If eliminating measles and mumps has increased cardiovascular deaths in the United States by even 1% on a life-years-lost basis, you are still way upside down on your public health benefit by eliminating measles.

• 37:28Joe Rogan?

  Can I ask you what the speculation is and how that could be? Why would measles and mumps infection at an early age improve your, your health cardiovascularly?

• 37:37Speaker 03

  Why would it also, those that have not had measles have a 66% increase rate of Hodgkin, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, and 266% increase rate of Hodgkin's lymphoma, which kills 20,000 people a year? Why would women that have had measles have 50% less ovarian cancer, which kills a lot of women every year? What is it about it? Maybe, and here's the thing...

• 38:01Joe Rogan?

  I'm, you know, and you can have a evolutionary biologist talk about this as well. You've had some on. Think about it this way, pathogens have come and gone throughout the ages, right? Right. This one didn't. Measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, they didn't. It could be, maybe, I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying this is what the data appears to reflect. What I just told you about with cardiovascular disease and cancer, they're all in PubMed. They're all PubMed studies, they're all in the published literature, and they're all consistent having the findings that I just described, okay? I'm just a lawyer, I'm just repeating to you what the data reflects. It could be that having those febrile childhood infections conferred a survival advantage overall.

• 38:42Joe Rogan?

  And it could be the reason they never actually went away over time, became less, obviously, pathogenic. It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, buy a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long because it's not football without food. Popeyes offer valid through November 1st. Add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout.

• 39:26Joe Rogan?

  Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, joe rogan dot com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to squarespace dot com slash rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

• 40:11Joe Rogan?

  So it has like a hermetic effect and it makes you physically stronger somehow or another? It makes your immune system stronger, your cardio, like a stress test?

• 40:21Joe Rogan?

  That means not outside the realm of possibility, right? I mean, if lifting weights makes you stronger and, you know, studying makes you smarter, wouldn't it make sense that some form of infection that you recover from will make you more resilient? It does make sense. It's just like, no one wants to say, "Hey, you should go get measles."

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Look, theory of relativity...

• 40:41Joe Rogan?

  In this world...

• 40:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, theory of relativity is not intuitive. Why is it, as you approach a more massive object, or approach the speed of light, does time relatively slow down? I don't know if it makes sense or not. It's just what, when you put two atomic clocks on a plane, one on the ground, one in the plane, you fly it around the earth, they're not ticking the same, so, there it is.

• 41:01Joe Rogan?

  Right. You can't pretend that's not data.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  The data is what it is.

• 41:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  It doesn't have to make sense to be true.

• 41:06Joe Rogan?

  That's a good point.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  That's just what it is. And I'm just saying what the studies show. Very inconvenient, a lot of cognizance is there, but it could very well be that our whole, this whole program, not only do we, so going back to your whole, going all the way back to your point, you're like, "Well, they'll say, "Vaccines are so important, we gotta give them this immunity." No. In fact, quite the opposite. Our babies are so precious, are so important, we want to make sure we have the safest possible product you couldn't have. And the way to do that is to make sure the companies have an economic interest to make sure they're as safe as possible.

• 41:41Joe Rogan?

  I agree with you entirely, but if I was questioning anything, I would say, "Okay, if we don't have genetic immunity anymore, because our parents didn't have it, because our parents are vaccinated against measles, wouldn't it be better to keep vaccinating people, rather than let a whole bunch of people with no immunity to measles get it, particularly like, older people?"

• 42:05Speaker 03

  So, this is a really important point, actually. I agree with you in the...

• 42:09Joe Rogan?

  Because...

• 42:10Speaker 03

  Here's, here, well, I'll put it in context.

• 42:12Joe Rogan?

  Before we get going, when, in, when they mandated vaccines, or when they started giving them to people, was what, in like, the early 60s, I believe?

• 42:19Speaker 03

  For measles vaccines.

• 42:20Joe Rogan?

  For measles, yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  63.

• 42:22Joe Rogan?

  Did a lot of people resist it? Was it back then, were the hippies opting out, or there, is there like, a group that you could follow and track that never got it, never got the vaccine, while everybody else did? Has to be, right?

• 42:34Speaker 03

  I'm sure there's a group out there you can identify, I mean, the Amish.

• 42:37Joe Rogan?

  There you go.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  So, you know, we represent right now because New York's trying to basically kick them out of New York for not vaccinating.

• 42:46Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  We just won in, we just, in the US Supreme Court, we were just successful in vacating the lower court decisions just a few weeks ago.

• 42:55Joe Rogan?

  Do you remember when Kathy Hochul was talking about the vaccines like they're a gift from God?

• 43:00Speaker 03

  She believes it.

• 43:01Joe Rogan?

  Did you, but do you remember how she was saying it? It was like, in any other business, if you were running a pharmaceutical drug business, if you're running, if you run a Chevy, and you're making a new Corvette, and you started talking about how this Corvette is a gift from God, everybody will go, oh, Kathy's cracked.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:18Joe Rogan?

  Like, what are you talking about? It's a bunch of engineers, we put together a great car. Like, what are you, it's a gift from God. What?

• 43:25Speaker 03

  People don't say, I believe in tables, or I believe in chairs, I believe in TVs, and I believe in wallpaper.

• 43:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  But they say, I believe in vaccines all the time because it carries a truism.

• 43:34Joe Rogan?

  But do they work? Like, does the measles vaccine prevent people from getting measles? Or is it a leaky vaccine? Is it a completely?

• 43:41Speaker 03

  So, answering that and your prior question at the same time.

• 43:46Joe Rogan?

  Sorry.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  No, no, no, don't be so.

• 43:47Joe Rogan?

  I'm very scattered.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  No, you're not scattered at all. Is that, is that, is that the measles vaccine, measles, MMR vaccine and chicken pox vaccine can prevent transmission. That is not true of most vaccines, but those can't. So.

• 44:05Joe Rogan?

  Those can.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  Those can. And so, to your, now going back, so that's the differential. And in fact, for most of the other vaccines, like pertussis vaccine and so forth, they make you more likely to spread the pathogen if you're vaccinated, and I can tell you all about that. But before I do that, let me just point out that, to your last comment, because measles, MMR vaccine and chicken pox vaccine can prevent transmission, you are correct.

• 44:30Speaker 03

  If measles were to come through society right now, right now, in the current time, it would be problematic because babies who aren't supposed to get it would be more likely to get it because the mothers aren't conferring the same eternal immunity that they did in the pre-vaccine era because the vaccine doesn't confer the same level of immunity anywhere near. And older folks, because the vaccine is nowhere as efficacious as having had the infection, depending on the study, 2% to 10% do not sero-convert even after two doses, meaning they are not getting immunity at all, pretty much, or immunity as considered immune.

• 45:05Joe Rogan?

  Is this when they take it later in life or when they take it when they're young?

• 45:09Speaker 03

  This is when they take it when they're young. And that's why when there's a measles outbreak, a lot of times you'll hear a call to even have folks who are older get the measles vaccine again, right? There's guidance on that. Because it doesn't confer. If you've had measles, you're done. You never need a vaccine. Again, you'll never get measles again. One and done.

• 45:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:29Speaker 03

  But, so yes, it would be problematic right now for those, for MMR, measles, most rubella, and chicken pox to just kind of let it rip. You would have to really, you know, have an educational campaign beforehand if you were going to do that. But for the other vaccines, Hep B vaccine, pertussis vaccine, not a problem. Those vaccines don't stop transmission.

• 45:53Joe Rogan?

  The Hep B ones, kind of crazy that they give that to babies. It's kind of crazy. Kind of crazy if the parent aren't immunized drug users or whatever, whatever would give them Hep B, that you're going to inject a baby with a vaccine that prevents them from getting a sexually transmitted disease and like a rarely, you gotta be doing something rough.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Joe, you just don't understand what goes on in the NICU.

• 46:22Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's the, it just seems crazy.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  It is, and here, I'll give you another data point, which is, in Denmark, okay, there is no Hep B, universal Hep B for kids. The only time they give Hep B in Denmark is if the mother is Hep B positive. So their Hep B vaccination rate amongst children is like 0.1% or something to that effect. Okay? So, here you go. Two first world countries, America and Denmark. Universal Hep B here, virtually zero Hep B vaccine given there. The rate of Hep B amongst children, not statistically significant. You know what is different between those two countries? The rate of harm from Hep B vaccine, that's different.

• 47:08Speaker 03

  You know what a baby's never died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B vaccine. In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a newborn that died from a Hep B vaccine. And I said earlier, you can't sue the manufacturers, you cannot. There is a little program, though, in the federal government where you can bring a claim if you're injured from a vaccine. That's what I'm talking about right now, about the baby that died of Hep B.

• 47:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  It's called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. I have like 20 folks at my firm that do that work. And, you know, it's not like a regular court. You don't get an Article III judge, Article III of the Constitution, a federal judge. You don't get any discovery as a right, which is how you prove harms. There's a $250,000 statutory cap on pain and suffering and on death, which is ridiculous. And it doesn't have, you know, anyways, long story short, it's paid out about $5 billion for damages and so forth from vaccines over the years. But, so, I didn't want people to get confused, like, when I said, well, how did this baby get adjudicated?

• 48:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 48:08Speaker 03

  Got adjudicated in this program.

• 48:10Joe Rogan?

  Got it, got it. So, when you have conversations with people and they are the way you used to be and the way I used to be.

• 48:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:21Joe Rogan?

  Where you just sort of...

• 48:24Joe Rogan?

  Just assumed that these, the people that are experts in their fields are doing a great job and that's why we're alive. And you start telling them these things, like, are you a real problem at a cocktail party? Like, have you ever, have you ever, have you ever had a conversation that just went completely sideways and they started getting angry at you for quoting things?

• 48:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:44Joe Rogan?

  Cause that's a, it's-

• 48:45Speaker 03

  It's not a problem for me, cause I don't know emotions or feelings about the products. They're just products.

• 48:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  They're no different for me, but a lot of folks, they, there's two things. First, for some, like medical professionals, a lot of them seem to derive a lot of their self-schema almost, their value, their worth from these products. They saved humanity. How could you question that? We are the saviors, right? In some respects, almost like supplanting God, right? What's the only thing that will save us during COVID? Was it God? No. Vaccines, that's the only thing. And then for others, they think that they know, okay? But they don't know intellectually. They've never looked at the primary sources. So when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from? The intellect? No. They draw from their emotions, they draw from their feelings, and that's why they get angry.

• 49:35Speaker 03

  I get that, I do get that all, I get that all the time, but I also often get folks who are just curious and interested to listen.

• 49:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think there's more of those now than there's ever been before.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I think COVID, in that respect, forced the conversation. You had millions of people who were listening to basic stuff that 10 years ago, when I started doing this work, nobody talked about, what is a placebo? What's a clinical trial? What's this stuff? Like, this became, or even the idea that a vaccine can cause a harm, was even, just that notion, was totally taboo seven years ago.

• 50:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  No more.

• 50:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think you're entirely correct. And also, credit to YouTube, cause YouTube doesn't suppress this stuff anymore, which is why I found dozens of interviews with you on YouTube. I mean, before, I had, I mean, I'd seen some of your stuff on social media, but then, you know, I've watched a bunch of your stuff now on YouTube, whereas during the pandemic, everything you said, you would've got removed.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  I was removed. Everything I said was rude. I'll tell you the first thing that Everett posted that got sent. It was on, it was on Twitter.

• 50:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the old Twitter.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  So we brought this lawsuit against the FDA to get all the documents they relied upon to license Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine. Okay.

• 50:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 03

  They licensed it in 42 days and we said, all right, 42 days, give us all the documents, right? And they wanted forever. They wanted to produce at a rate of a few hundred pages a month, which would have taken hundreds of years effectively. Got a tranche of those documents, took some of them, literally took one of the documents and posted it. And my tweet was just literally quoting from the document effectively. And that was taken down as misinformation. Pfizer's own documents submitted to the FDA. One of the first things, that, that was just, that was mind jarring.

• 51:22Joe Rogan?

  It was stunning. It was stunning to watch people not be outraged too. When information was getting out about different people that were silenced, Jay Bhattacharya and all those different people that were getting attacked, Martin Coldorf. It was stunning how no one was going, hey, what is going on here? This seems really weird that you're removing posts from guys from MIT and Stanford and banning their accounts. Like, that's fucking crazy. And until Elon purchased Twitter, we really didn't know the extent of it. We didn't really, we really weren't aware that it was government involvement, that they were stepping in to remove and remove malinformation. That was my favorite. They came up with, you know that one?

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Disinformation, malinformation.

• 52:04Joe Rogan?

  Mal's the best because it's true information that might cause problems. Which is fucking almost everything. As soon as you have a problem with malinformation, like you are encouraging the creepiest kind of group think that's available and no one freaked out. Well, a few people freaked out, but not enough. It wasn't, it should have been bipartisan, should have been a bipartisan freak out. It should have been left and right, but it got politicized in this really stupid way. Where people on the left were pro-vaccine and pro-pharmaceutical drug company and pro-narrative. And people on the right were like, I'm gonna take my chances. And those were the kooks. And, you know, it was this like ideological battle as much as it was a public health crisis.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  Censorship was bad. It was very bad. Real bad. But, I'll tell you what made me think people were gonna go into the street with pitchforks, was when the government told everybody, "Stay at home." That wasn't hidden. That wasn't behind the scenes, the stuff you're talking about. They said, "Stay in your house." They didn't say, "We recommend you stay in your houses." Right. They didn't say, "We recommend you get this vaccine." "We don't recommend you wear this mask." They said, "Stay in your house." When they had that first order came down, I was like, "People are just gonna be outraged. People are going to protest." And when they didn't, that's what dismayed me personally, and I'll tell you why. Okay?

• 53:32Speaker 03

  Because when you think about civil and individual rights, First Amendment, the right to free speech, the assembly, alright? That was passed and adopted by the states in 1791. What's the First Amendment intended to do? Restrict government from infringing on those rights. You think life was easy in 1791? What do you think life was like in 1791? You think it was easy? You think it was all hunky-dory? Life in 1791 was brutal! Brutal! You wanna talk about disease, pestilence, famine, war? You wanna talk about a life that is no electricity, no running water, no sewage, nothing?

• 54:14Speaker 03

  And that amendment was passed for times that are more brutal than that. And here comes a virus. And every right you have is basically taken away. And Americans are like, "Take it! Take it away!" That is what outraged me, because look. What was the whole point of this country? What is America born out of? In my view? It's born out of the idea that every other government that preceded it got it wrong in the following sense. Your life should not be dictated by a king, or a dictator, or a polyburo, or a central authority. It's the idea that you are born with inalienable rights.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  You should be able to choose your destiny, including what risks you want to take. Individual rights come with risks. Letting Joe Rogan say what he wants on this podcast comes with risks. Letting you practice what religion you want, assemble with who you want, especially in Austin. Very interesting time yesterday. That comes with risks, let me tell you. A lot of risks, okay? But the greater risk is always ceding that right to the government. Because once you do, you don't get it back often. And so, yes, there was that hidden stuff you talk about, and that's not, that was bad. Don't get me wrong, that was bad stuff. That's really, really bad. But, but the stuff they did in the open, to me, in some ways was, was even worse. And I hope that there's a lesson that folks learn from that. Because let me tell you something.

• 55:44Speaker 03

  Even if you love every vaccine out there, you're listening to this, you love every vaccine. You love every mask, right? Great, I, I support every American's right. You're 17, you're 18, you're totally healthy, no comorbidities, and you want to get a vaccine a day? Wear 70 masks and live in your basement in a self-imposed stay-at-home order? This is America, I'm, I support your right to do, I'll fight for your right to do that. And you're 90, and you're a war veteran? And you want to go to the, you have 16 comorbidities? And you want to go to the coffee shop with no vaccine and no mask? You should be free to do that, because that's America too, that's freedom also.

• 56:16Joe Rogan?

  Just like you can bull ride.

• 56:17Speaker 03

  And if you don't stand up for that right now. The day comes when there's something, a medical product you don't want. The government says you have to get, because trust me, it is so much cheaper. To lobby to get a medical product required than it is to market to get people to get it. Oh, they've learned that lesson. That's why there's so much lobbying to get mandates, get rid of exemptions across the country. That you don't want, and you can't get a job, and you can't go to school, and you can't live your house. Then what good are the rest of your rights? They're useless. That's why medical liberty truly is a fundamental right. I'm off my high horse.

• 56:55Joe Rogan?

  No, it's a great high horse. That was an awesome rant. You're absolutely 100% on the money. And it's, that's- It's such an important thing to to get out there, to to get people to understand that you it's such a natural human inclination to when you're in a place of power, of control, any form of government, you want more control. And it's just natural. And what you're talking about, when you lose rights, you very rarely get them back. That was so on display in California with the COVID regulations, because they had everybody locked down way past where they had to. A friend of mine's brother worked in one of

• 57:38Joe Rogan?

  the COVID, some government office, when they were considering the closing of outdoor dining. And he brought up, but it's there's no transmission related to outdoor dining. And the woman who was in charge said, yes, but it's all about the optics. So she was willing to, with a wave of her magic wand, shut down outdoor dining for a bunch of small family businesses that were probably barely staying alive after COVID, barely. We lost somewhere around 70% of Los Angeles restaurants went under during COVID. That's fucking bananas. And so they finally get outdoor dining. Like, okay, we could we could kind of pay the bills this

• 58:22Joe Rogan?

  month. And then they shut down outdoor dining for optics. So this this kind of desire to just put a foot down, control people, keep a boot on their neck, it's normal, even if it doesn't make sense. Everybody knows that from high school. Everybody knows that from, I mean, the Stanford prison experiments. People like to control people. They enjoy it. And when they get a place like becoming the mayor, or becoming the governor, and being able to tell people, oh, you had to listen to me. I've got rule. Everyone stay inside, be scared. Fucking California, Garcetti literally had a campaign that said, "Snitches get rewards." Snitches, snitching on people, having more than one person over your house, standing too

• 59:07Joe Rogan?

  close in the backyard, you get money, you get money for ratting out your neighbor. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. In honor of International Women's Day, BetterHelp is celebrating the women in your life. I think we can all appreciate everything the women in our lives have done for us, and everyone deserves a little self-care. A good way to get that is through therapy, because not only is therapy a time for you to focus on yourself, it's also a way to create balance and learn how to take care of your needs in your daily life. And BetterHelp, as one of the largest online therapy platforms, makes it so easy to meet with the right therapist. All you need to do is fill out a short questionnaire.

• 59:51Joe Rogan?

  You don't even need to go into an office to meet them. You can chat at home, from your couch, in your car, before you hit the gym, or while you're walking your dog. Plus, if you aren't jiving with your first match, you can switch to a different therapist whenever you need. Your emotional well-being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's better H-E-L-P dot com slash J-R-E.

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  Well, when the government gets it wrong, they always, always double down, because, and that's the problem with the mandates. Once they've required it, they have taken a position, and then to admit they're wrong, often what government ends up saying is, "Oh, well, we're the CDC. If we admit we're wrong about this, that's gonna hurt our ability to influence the public, and that's more important than admitting we're wrong on this or correcting course." Because our legitimacy, our ability to influence the public is so important, we have to, you know, we can't admit we're wrong. That's what Bobby's doing right now with some of these things, is, you know, is some of the stuff, like the

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  new autism page on the CDC website, for example, is contrary to anything I've ever seen come out of the federal health authorities to date. But yes, it's disturbing, and it's why...

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  Government should, no public health authority should ever be able to tell you and infringe on your rights. They should be able to recommend, recommend the law, recommend like crazy.

• 1:01:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  But never do it because that is the normal course of how tyranny, dictators, bullies, thugs operate. First, they tell you what to do. You don't listen, apply a little pressure. You don't listen, then they mandate. You still don't listen, they censor you. Still, take away more of your rights. That is the normal progression throughout history, and we saw it happen in front of our eyes, which is why it should be a line in the sand. Federal health authorities, state health authorities should be able to recommend and encourage, never mandate, ever.

• 1:02:01Joe Rogan?

  Fauci literally expressed it that way. I'm sure you've heard that recording of him, said, "Once people realize they can't go to work, they'll drop their ideological bullshit and they'll get vaccinated."

• 1:02:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Joe Rogan?

  Like, he's, he's essentially telling them, "You're gonna make people's life hell and they'll do what you want them to do." Not, "They will have free will, they will have the ability to choose." No, no, no. You will make them do what you want.

• 1:02:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. Who wants a government that persuades you on the merits? Forget that.

• 1:02:33Joe Rogan?

  But imagine that that's, that is something that someone said out loud.

• 1:02:38Speaker 03

  But, but, but, but that, I don't think that what Fauci was saying is anything, Fauci, everything in my view that you saw during COVID is not like some giant leap into some new territory. To me, it's just another natural step in progression from where we've gone over the last 40 years with vaccines. Fauci saying that is no different than school mandates right now.

• 1:03:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  To get children, most states have, 45 states have basically checked the box exemption to send your kids to school. There's about five that don't. They're trying to eliminate exemptions, right? Clearly, they're able to persuade most parents on the merits, but yet, they can't take it. They can't take that 2, 3, 4% just will not take these products. And I, you know, and I'll tell you about where most of these folks are. They're the folks who really need the exemptions because, you know, most people who don't choose to take child to vaccines, they don't typically just wake up and decide to do that for fun. Not many people wake up one day and go, "You know what I'm gonna do today?" I'm gonna take a socially ostracizing position that might get my kids kicked out of

• 1:03:47Speaker 03

  school, me thrown out of my job, my friends call me an anti-this and anti-that, you know, you name it, all the horribles that come with not vaccinating. No, most people don't vaccinate, don't vaccinate because they've had a very, very personal or negative experience with these products, they are one of their kids or one of their family members, or they've learned stuff they cannot learn about them, okay? They have usually a very good reason not to, and yet, as you saw during COVID, it's not about, in many respects, the medicine to the examples you gave. It's about, they cannot stand that somebody is not agreeing

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  with their beliefs. They cannot extend the exceptions, those who stand up, say, no, I've come to a different medical conclusion. They can't let that exist.

• 1:04:38Joe Rogan?

  Right. That is what it is. And it happens for people regardless of their religious status. It's a weird thing. It's like, it is like a religion. I mean, which is why I'm so glad you wrote your book that way, because I think there's these natural patterns of groupthink and of just complying that people automatically fall into. It's very easy. That's why people can get people to join cults, that's why people are part of like weird Christian sects, like, wait, what do you guys do? Huh? You're like, who's the guy? Who's the head guy? This guy? And he gets to marry everybody? What? Okay. What?

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  Well, that's what happened.

• 1:05:21Joe Rogan?

  It's normal. It's a normal thing. And if you scale it outward, it goes to a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that people just have these like, climate change is a religion right now. Like, there's certain people that if you confront them with, like, the actual- The ones that are willing to question the narrative that are legitimate client scientists, they'll tell you like, it is so complicated to figure out what is causing the changes in the earth's climate, warmth and cold, and the fact that it's never been static, ever, in human history, never before humans, never, millions of years, it's done this crazy thing, it involves the procession of the equinoxes and the fucking polar vortex and it's a lot

• 1:06:02Joe Rogan?

  of, and then also stuff we burn, that too, but like what percentage is what, but it doesn't matter, you can't have that conversation, it's like you questioning, you know, whatever Messiah this person believes in, they'll just lock down and climate change is this, not one climate change prediction of doom has been accurate, not one, not even in the ballpark. You remember the fucking Al Gore movie? Yeah. We're supposed to be dead. Yeah. Meanwhile, they're all buying fucking oceanfront houses in Maui, you know, get out of here, shut the fuck up, this is another thing, this is another thing, like, yeah, we shouldn't pollute, yeah, we shouldn't release particulates in the atmosphere, yeah, we should have clean energy, yeah, but also, you guys are crooks, you guys are a bunch

• 1:06:47Joe Rogan?

  of crooks that are making money off of this idea that you're forcing down everybody's throat, that everybody's got a Green New Deal and everybody's got to do renewable this, renewable, and then who's got money invested in all this stuff, a bunch of people who are pushing it, and it's a fucking scam, just like so many of these things are fucking scams, doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the damage that we're doing to the earth, we should probably stop overfishing the ocean, we should probably stop dumping shit into the rivers, a hundred percent, you know who used to go to court for that? Bobby. RFK Junior, he fucking cranks, the guy who was like cleaning up the East River, that's Bobby Kennedy Junior, he was the guy.

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  And an easy way to identify that somebody is not really coming at you with science and they're coming at you with belief, religion.

• 1:07:38Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  Is exactly what you just said, which is they're not willing to debate, they're not willing to discuss it, they're not willing to engage because that is antithetical to the scientific method. The whole idea is it's never settled. The whole idea is you push the fringes, you push new theories, you push new ideas. Where would science be if you said this is it? Of course. That is the whole notion of it, dispassionately looking at it over and over and over and seeing what more you can learn. And the moment somebody says, no, we need to stop, you can't discuss, you can't debate that, that's when you know you're dealing with a religion, not science.

• 1:08:15Joe Rogan?

  And when I've talked to certain scientists in different fields that feel very constricted by the academic environment, one of the things that they point to is that the group think involved in that is just like the group think involved in everything, in left-wing politics, whatever it is, just figure out whatever it is, right-wing politics. Group think in academia is also higher, it's hierarchical, there's tiers. And you gotta agree with everybody that's above you. You want to get tenure, you want to progress, you want to get grants, it's gotta be, you guys gotta be in line on all this shit. And he's like, and anybody thinks out of the box is ruthlessly attacked. And even when they turn out to be correct, no one apologizes.

• 1:08:56Joe Rogan?

  No, they're reluctantly agree that the person was initially correct, but they'll destroy their career if they can. He's like, the pissing matches are horrifying. And these are the people that are in charge of telling you what's real in the world. They're just like everybody else. They're, they're, they have ego and there's a fucking social scramble going on at all times and people are playing succession in Game of Thrones. It's like, it's, the reality is not what you're being told in the news. What you're being told in the news is a narrative and when the news has a giant chunk of their money for advertising, it's paid by pharmaceutical drug companies and they never criticizing me like, this is wild.

• 1:09:41Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is wild, that this, this is America in 2026 and the only way you can find out what's kind of real is on the internet.

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  Yes, and also, when it comes to censorship.

• 1:09:59Speaker 03

  If I said some totally crazy stupid thing about you that was totally untrue,

• 1:10:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:10:04Speaker 03

  Ignore it. If I said it by government, they ignore it. When do they censor? They censor when it's true, because that's when they're scared.

• 1:10:11Joe Rogan?

  Right. If you start talking about the government being lizard people, nobody's gonna

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  Nobody cares.

• 1:10:15Joe Rogan?

  Nobody comes for you. They're all shapeshifters. Nobody cares.

• 1:10:18Speaker 03

  But when you start talking about something that's true, that's when it hurts. That's when they, that's what they need to suppress. You think they need to suppress stuff about, I don't know, a certain island with death? If it's not true, no. But if it is true, that's when it gets scary, and that's when you need suppression.

• 1:10:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:10:38Speaker 03

  And also, I'll note, I went to Berkeley for law school. So, I'm familiar with a little bit of what you were just talking about.

• 1:10:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:44Speaker 03

  And that experience too. It was two, even though it was over two decades ago, it was going strong back then.

• 1:10:49Joe Rogan?

  It was going strong back then, but I feel like it was much more reasonable. Like, I used to love San Francisco back then. It was a, it was a great town to visit. They were smart, they were cool, they were laid back, people liked to drink. But they were fun. They always seemed like a smarter LA that got out of show business.

• 1:11:06Speaker 03

  San Francisco, Berkeley,

• 1:11:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's another.

• 1:11:09Speaker 03

  Were two different things. I completely agree. And even in, I mean, if, let's go outside the bubble of Berkeley from 20 years ago. Look back over 20, 20 years ago, who was fighting for civil individual rights? It was the left. ACLU, think about Skokie, Illinois, right? Fighting for the neo-Nazis to be able to march through a Jewish town to say what they want. Who fought that case? Who protected their right to say that? Democrat, ACLU, liberal lawyers and liberal judges, and they said, protecting their right to say the things they're saying is despicable, as horrible as we might find it, protects all our right to free speech. Could you imagine those same folks today? Bringing that case and deciding that way? No way.

• 1:11:51Joe Rogan?

  No way.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  No way.

• 1:11:53Joe Rogan?

  And what's stunning is that if you asked anybody alive then, if you had ultimate access to information, literally you could pick up your phone and ask it any question about anything and get information instantaneously, would people be more or less informed?

• 1:12:13Joe Rogan?

  You would say, well, certainly they'll be more informed, so there'll be more understanding of the value of free speech and they'll know more about that ruling and what a brave stance they took to allow the KKK to march and how it just shows intellectual superiority, the way to beat a bad idea is not to silence it, is to argue it with a much better idea. But you would think by 2026, oh, they'll, they'll be way better, this will be a super advanced society of flying cars. No, no, no, it's more ideologically captured, more wrapped up in the algorithm, which I think is probably at least 50% fake. 50% is a bunch of bots tweeting a bunch of shit that's, you know, they don't even believe.

• 1:12:56Joe Rogan?

  They're just trying to rile people up and stir people up and, and push certain narratives. And then people are locked into it 12 hours a day, so they're really crazy and no one's considering things like the important, well, let's go back to old cases and let's look at why they did that. And it was like, no, no, no, everybody's like captured with whatever the fuck is on TikTok today. What's the latest stupid thing you're supposed to be paying attention to? And the fact that now we're at war. Right? Okay. Great.

• 1:13:23Speaker 03

  Social media and the scrolling through those videos, which is what you're describing, I think, is so troubling. First of all, my understanding is that they just show you stuff that confirms what you already believe because that's what you want to see. You want to see the things that you already agree with. So you just get this incredible confirmation bias that happens, which is antithetical to, to, to thinking critically, to really opening your mind to it. And then you end up, you know, without, because without actually understanding both sides of an argument, without really understanding it. I mean, look, I understand the stuff about vaccines that I know which ones stop transmission and I know which ones don't. Right? And I don't have to live in the world of believing, for example, they all do.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  I know how much death there was before each vaccine and I know, so I don't have to say, didn't ever save any alive and I don't have to say, millions would die, I just, the data's the data. Right? And but you're not if all you're getting is one viewpoint all the time, you're not you get this terrible confirmation bias. And did you see this recent study that I I just read the the abstracts, so I didn't delve into it. But apparently, watching social media reduces your IQ over time, you know, just doing all of that scrolling. That's that's really scary when you think about

• 1:14:38Joe Rogan?

  It makes sense.

• 1:14:38Speaker 03

  Our current generation. Yeah.

• 1:14:39Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if it could make you smarter. How many more people would be interested in doing it? Right? Like, if there was a thing, if you could just stare at your phone for a few hours a day, and you get significantly smarter, like, it's a 10-point jump in IQ.

• 1:14:50Speaker 03

  You know, my wife calls our Wi-Fi at our house.

• 1:14:52Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 1:14:53Speaker 03

  If you found the Wi-Fi, it's called read a book.

• 1:14:54Joe Rogan?

  Ah, that's funny. That's funny. And then you hear things like you shouldn't have Wi-Fi in your house, because all the signals flying around are bad for you. Like, how bad? Are you sure? Like, what is that? Like, how long have we been doing the Wi-Fi thing? A decade? Two decades? Three decades? This episode is brought to you by The Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and

• 1:15:38Joe Rogan?

  death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galitzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis, The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th, because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead

• 1:16:17Joe Rogan?

  of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H-E-L-P, dot com.

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  I mean, in the course of the length of humanity, that's not very long.

• 1:16:54Joe Rogan?

  It's not very long.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  I mean, look, I-

• 1:16:56Joe Rogan?

  I hope Wi-Fi's not killing us. I really do. It's so convenient.

• 1:16:58Speaker 03

  Look at most, most, listen, obviously, most things that will just kill you get identified.

• 1:17:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:06Speaker 03

  It's not the things that kill you immediately that are a problem typically, because-

• 1:17:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:10Speaker 03

  They killed you, and so you know. It's the things that, that cause slow issues, ongoing issues. I mean, we know folks who work on high-power lines have higher, far higher rates of cancer. Study after study reflects that, for example.

• 1:17:22Joe Rogan?

  Which makes sense. I mean-

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  I mean, and look, for the-

• 1:17:25Joe Rogan?

  If iPod's bad for you, you know what I mean? If AirPods are bad in your ears? Imagine being next to those power lines? What does that do to you?

• 1:17:34Speaker 03

  I don't want to go down this rabbit hole, because it's not my, my area, per se, but for the whole length of humanity, right? When you think of the, of, of the spectrum, right? We were pretty much only exposed to natural light, which is a very narrow light, narrow band of the, of the spectrum, okay? Right? When you think of waves. So as you go down on the left side of the spectrum, the waves get longer, like AM rays, really long, FM rays, microwaves, natural light, and then above that, you get X-rays, cosmic rays, and anything above natural light, they say, "Oh, it's really bad. That's just gonna mess you up." And stuff below natural light, they, they say, "Well, as long as it doesn't heat up your cells," that's typically the standard our government uses, "it's safe." So as long as it's not heating your cell.

• 1:18:19Speaker 03

  But that's not, that's a very old standard, but it's still the one in effect today. So, in any event, when you think about microwaves, they said, "Stay away from it," even though it's below natural light, there's, you know, what is the cumulative effect of being, if you put your Wi-Fi under your bed every night, your whole life? What is the effect? There are numerous studies that show that it does have certain effects, but I, anyway, it's not worth going down that road, but yeah.

• 1:18:46Joe Rogan?

  But it might just be minor, or it might be cumulative, right? Yeah, and then how about cellphone signals? You can't even stop those. They're around you all the time.

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Joe Rogan?

  I mean, if you can FaceTime someone in New Zealand right now from your phone, clearly something's going on in the air.

• 1:19:02Speaker 03

  I'll put it this way. Every environmental insult has the potential to cause some kind of dysregulation in your body, whether it's microplastics, whether it's, you name it, okay? And the precautionary principle would indicate that until you know it's safe, the onus is on those who want to expose you to it to prove to you it is, right? It shouldn't be the other way around. I don't think anybody has to prove to you that Wi-Fi is not safe to say, you know what, based on the precautionary principle, I'm just gonna turn off the Wi-Fi every night in my house because, I don't know. Like, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Because humans have been exposed to it forever. I've not seen the studies that validate that it doesn't cause an issue, or large, robust studies.

• 1:19:43Speaker 03

  And so, you know, but obviously, I think what I just said, some people might hear and go, "Well, that sounds crazy." But why?

• 1:19:52Joe Rogan?

  Why would it be crazy? If we found out that there's a particular frequency that's bad for your memory or bad for your brain and that we're using it to broadcast something, that completely makes sense.

• 1:20:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, except that I never think about harms the way you just said it because that would indicate that we have to find out what harms it causes.

• 1:20:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  To me, when I go into a car dealership, for example, I walk in and the salesman says, "All right, this car." Okay? And I say, "Well, is it safe?" And the car dealer says to me, "Prove to me it's not safe." And I said, "Well..." And I said, "Well, what do you mean? If you can't prove it, you gotta take this car." By the way, that's how vaccines work. That's how I... And that is, that is become a little bit of the, depending on, mostly for vaccines, but a little bit for some of these other products, where it's like, "You gotta prove it's not safe." "No, I don't have to prove it's not safe. I'm not buying this car. You prove to me it's..." "No, you prove to me this vaccine causes harm, or you better take it." That's the way it's approached.

• 1:20:55Speaker 03

  A little bit like that Wi-Fi and with 5G and the LTE and all that stuff, it's almost like, "You prove to me that doing this all day is gonna cause brain cancer or else you're a kook." "No, why don't you show me the study shows it doesn't do that?" That's the way it should work with products and product safety.

• 1:21:10Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense. That's very reasonable.

• 1:21:14Joe Rogan?

  Again, I don't know. I'm not saying that it does. But what I'm saying is there's been things that human beings did and they found it was really bad for you. We've talked about it a few times, but those ladies, they used to test the x-ray machines with their hands. And no one told them, no one told them that x-rays can give you cancer and fuck you up. And these poor ladies, every day, when they would show up at the medical office, they would put their hand in the x-ray machine to make sure it worked. And then you see their hands next to each other. It's horrifying. Like, they got horrible lesions on their hands. And it's like, it's really creepy.

• 1:21:49Speaker 03

  They x-rayed pregnant women until the 70s.

• 1:21:50Joe Rogan?

  Jeez.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  Until the 70s, they were x-raying pregnant women, not with the x-rays of today that are far less radiation exposure. The x-rays of the 70s, which is a lot. They gave the, I believe the Nobel Prize, I'm pretty sure about this, for the lobotomy.

• 1:22:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:06Speaker 03

  If I'm not mistaken.

• 1:22:07Joe Rogan?

  I think they did. I think you're right. I think they did. Find that out. Jamie, put that into our sponsor perplexity. The Nobel Prize, Peter Berg told me about the origins of it. And I was like, wait, what?

• 1:22:18Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 1:22:19Joe Rogan?

  There was a guy who made dynamite.

• 1:22:21Speaker 03

  Dynamite, yeah.

• 1:22:22Joe Rogan?

  And there was a false story about his death. And in the newspaper, they called him the merchant of death. And he realized it and he was like, oh shit, I gotta change my PR. I gotta change my image. And so he came up with the Nobel Prize. And started awarding this prestigious prize. And then, instead of him being connected with blowing people up with dynamite, he became connected with the most prestigious prize in all of medicine and all of government and the peace. The Nobel Peace Prize. Pretty crazy.

• 1:22:55Speaker 03

  It's amazing, when you have money, how you can influence the world to think certain things about, in his instance, him, and others' certain products. Exactly. Absolutely.

• 1:23:06Joe Rogan?

  But what's really stunning is you're also allowed to influence the people that actually deliver the news. Which is, you know, that's the crazy one. Like, Callie Neen's talked about that. Like, they're advertising not because they want to sell their products with the advertisement that they're putting on the air. They're doing that too. But they're also ensuring that this steady stream of revenue that's going to these networks, they won't be opening up any lines of...

• 1:23:35Joe Rogan?

  Investigation into the vaccine injuries like it's not gonna happen. You're not gonna see a giant CNN piece about COVID-19 vaccine injuries. It's not happening. It's not happening. You're not gonna hear much about anything. It's gonna be, it has to be a big fucking story where they have to say it. Well, they'll just mention a judgment real quick and then move on. Moving on.

• 1:23:58Speaker 03

  The Rast mutant poll, I don't know if you remember this one, found that I believe one in four, and I'm not, I think that's right, but I'm not sure, 100%. People said they believe they knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine. Or knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine. When you have that many people with that, with that lived experience. And yet, the mainstream media, as you just said, was still able to continue to push the narrative around COVID vaccines the way they did on the Nobel Prize.

• 1:24:27Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Nobel Prize related lobotomy refers to 1949 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine awarded to Antonio Agos Moniz, a Portuguese neurologist for developing the prefrontal lobotomy.

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  I believe that continued until the 60s, by the way.

• 1:24:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, imagine that he got that prize in 49. They were like, good job.

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  Meaning the medical profession as it stood in the 60s when measles vaccine was rolling out, was still doing this, by the way.

• 1:24:54Joe Rogan?

  I think they stopped lobotomies in 60, was it 67?

• 1:24:58Speaker 05

  He developed something called a leukotomy, which was slightly different than what became known as the lobotomy, which we know as like the ice pick method.

• 1:25:08Joe Rogan?

  What was his?

• 1:25:09Speaker 05

  It said also called the leukotomy. Yeah, so that was this Freeman, that's the guy who was like the doc, I think they called him even Dr. Death or something like that. For he did like, he did a ton of lobotomies all over the country.

• 1:25:22Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, today, you don't need a lobotomy apparently to have a lobotomy. Just spend a lot of time on social media and get your information from certain places.

• 1:25:30Joe Rogan?

  It's so bad for people.

• 1:25:32Speaker 03

  You can maybe end up in the same place.

• 1:25:34Joe Rogan?

  It's just hard, hard to recommend a certain amount of it. It's like, how much Twinkies should you eat a day? I don't mind if you eat Twinkies, but if you're eating Twinkies all day long, you're gonna be fucked up, man. That's how I feel about like social media interactions. But I do think it's an important way to distribute information. It's if you're with, say, if you're working for some corporation and you know something fucked up is going on and you could put it up on Twitter and with with details and facts and and people could look into it. And you could open up a line of reporters and investigative journalists that are going to find this, expose it, and you could really break a story that is like good for everybody. Like having a way to communicate ideas like that is fantastic.

• 1:26:18Joe Rogan?

  Everything else, like all the arguing, all the shit that people do back and forth, you're just rotting your brain out and we're all guilty of it. If you're on it.

• 1:26:27Speaker 03

  I mean, during the COVID pandemic, when all of these government overreaches were occurring, but for the existence of social media, you know, podcasts like yours and other alternative platforms, right? The information in many respects wouldn't have come out if you didn't have Peter McCullough on.

• 1:26:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:47Speaker 03

  Robert Malone on, and if Fox and some, just that little portion of the, I guess, more traditional media sphere wasn't willing for a time period to have folks on. I mean, and let's trust me, when I started doing vaccine related work a decade ago, I never thought a single outlet, whether it's Fox or CNN, would ever have me on.

• 1:27:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:27:06Speaker 03

  They had me on numerous times until, you know, vaccines kind of like, all right, let's not touch that again.

• 1:27:11Joe Rogan?

  Was this during, this was during the Biden administration then, and I think part of that was because it was a point of contention between the right and the left, right? It was the right opposing the draconian measures that the left, who is in power, and we got to get the right back in power because we're all about freedom. Yeah, so I think there was a little bit of that going on there, right?

• 1:27:32Speaker 03

  For sure, there was some of that going on, as you pointed out, I believe, in the past. When Trump was promoting the vaccine, we're not taking that vaccine. And the moment Biden was like, we're taking the vaccine.

• 1:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Kamala Harris was saying it. Why would you trust him and whatever his vaccine is like, that is so crazy. These people are fake.

• 1:27:50Speaker 03

  I mean, if Trump came out tomorrow and said, everybody should get every vaccine out there, I, you know, see what would happen. I don't know.

• 1:27:57Joe Rogan?

  That's the way.

• 1:27:58Speaker 03

  Would stop saking it.

• 1:27:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, if he really got into trans kids.

• 1:28:02Joe Rogan?

  They put a ban to it immediately. Yeah, it's weird. It's weird to watch. Weird to watch us so divided and at each other's throats. And I really do think that a giant percentage of the uptick and the craziness is just social media. I don't think people are designed for it. I just, thank God Elon bought Twitter. Because if he didn't, we would not have the kind of access to the actual truth, the real data. It would all be suppressed. You would never find out about it. How would you know about these studies? No one's gonna, you're not gonna go scouring through journals. And even if you do, what are you gonna do? You gotta get on Rumble and talk about it? That's probably the only way you can. And if anybody from Rumble tries to share that on a Twitter, they'll get banned.

• 1:28:44Joe Rogan?

  So it's like, we were in a real pickle. It was a bad spot.

• 1:28:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:49Joe Rogan?

  And it was just a few years ago.

• 1:28:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Joe Rogan?

  Which is nuts.

• 1:28:52Speaker 03

  We could've gone a very different direction.

• 1:28:54Joe Rogan?

  Very different.

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  I'll use an analogy. When they, remember the airlines, you know, because CDC required masks on planes?

• 1:29:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:01Speaker 03

  When that got struck down by the courts, okay? A number of airlines said, "We're gonna keep our mask mandate." I don't know if you remember that. You know, they proudly came out. The CEOs said, "We're gonna keep it." Half of them said they were gonna keep it. The other half immediately lifted the mask mandate on planes. And those that decided to keep it, they dropped it within a day or two, I think. Or something like that. Really rapidly. Because economically, they were losing business.

• 1:29:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:24Speaker 03

  And I think that changed the center of gravity on that issue. I think Elon buying Twitter, X, basically changed the center of gravity on censorship. Whereby, without that, they might've all just kept going even in the worst direction. And they saw they were losing market share to X. Once he bought it and he didn't have censorship, I think that conformed their conduct.

• 1:29:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, it was also, it was indicative of how people actually felt versus what was suppressed. Like, when you realize that there's, well, have you ever seen like how people identifying as non-binary and trans dropped off like, like, right after purchase of Twitter? Because people got a chance to talk about it now. And you can criticize it. And people could put up memes and they can call it a mental illness again. And then all of a sudden, everybody's like, "Hey, what are we supporting? Men with penises in the women's room?" Like... Did we get hypnotized? Like, what the fuck happened? And now you're seeing even prestigious mainstream media publications talking about the dangers of gender transition for young kids.

• 1:30:33Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Okay, so what happened? What happened? What happened was Elon bought Twitter and people were out to actually accurately gauge what people were willing to tolerate and what they actually want versus what's being shoved down everybody's throats with censorship and with mainstream media narratives. They just keep piping back and forth pretending everybody agrees with them.

• 1:30:54Speaker 03

  That's one piece of it. They're also, by the way, a lot of the hospitals and doctors are getting sued.

• 1:30:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:30:59Speaker 03

  Left and right on this. In fact, you know, we've-

• 1:31:03Joe Rogan?

  Especially after that first ruling, right?

• 1:31:05Speaker 03

  We have, you know, um, um, um, I can't talk about it, but-

• 1:31:13Joe Rogan?

  It's okay.

• 1:31:13Speaker 03

  Very, very troubling matters, which includes suicide and hiding it from parents.

• 1:31:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:20Speaker 03

  Um, school districts hiding, I mean, it's really troubling stuff.

• 1:31:23Joe Rogan?

  Do you have children?

• 1:31:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do.

• 1:31:25Joe Rogan?

  I do too. And one of the things you realize if you have children is that they are very malleable and they want to fit in and they are subject to social contingents. And that social contagion can be dressing up goth, it could be like, whatever it is. Like, they want to fit in and they're experimenting, they're kids. And if you just decide, oh, you're a boy, and then you bring the boy, that kid to it and you're giving them all this positive attention and you're giving them all this positive feedback and then you go to school, I'm trans now, and everyone says you're brave. Like, for awkward kids, that is absolutely enticing.

• 1:32:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32:01Joe Rogan?

  And not only that, they do it in clusters. Like, Abigail Schreier has written about this, that this is, a lot of these girls have autism and a lot of these girls, they're socially awkward and they're very uncomfortable with their body and they're going through puberty, which kind of freaks them out already, freaks out any girl.

• 1:32:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Joe Rogan?

  And then something comes along like this, and now you've been taken to a doctor and had your breasts removed and you're 15. That's fucking crazy. And to say anything in opposition to that somehow became, you're a bigot, or you're a Nazi, or you're transphobic. This is crazy talk. Like, you're talking about very malleable children doing something, you can't even get a fucking tattoo if you're 15. Why can you get your breasts removed? That's nuts.

• 1:32:46Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, it became a very big business. The number of centers in America that perform these surgeries exploded. And so with that explosion, you need clients. Like, every business, it needs to feed, right? That business model, right? And so...

• 1:33:03Joe Rogan?

  That is so evil. It's so creepy to think that people are willing to talk people into that just for money. But they've done it with so many other things. It's not impossible to believe that it's true. It's scary.

• 1:33:21Speaker 03

  A lot of times, if you follow the money trail, you can see how things develop and where they go. It often helps, you know, puts in perspective. And, look, rare is the person that says, "I'm evil, I'm bad." I mean, people find a way to justify things. They find a way to excuse them and, you know, find, you know, the, "Well, I'm doing more good than bad." Justification in their minds.

• 1:33:44Joe Rogan?

  Or there's the diffusion of responsibility that comes with being a part of a corporation that's doing something. "Hey, look, I'm just an accountant." Or, "Hey, I'm just an engineer." Or, "Hey, you know, I'm doing, I'm not, I don't want the company to move in this direction, however I do own stock." So, as it goes up.

• 1:33:58Speaker 03

  Especially in publicly traded companies, which brings us back to the very beginning of this.

• 1:34:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:34:03Speaker 03

  Which is, you know, that is what happens in those corporations.

• 1:34:07Joe Rogan?

  Should that be a thing? Like, if you could redo the, if you had a magic wand and you could completely redo the economy, would you have the stock market? I mean, isn't it enough that people just buy things, sell things? Your company's worth money because it makes money. Isn't that enough? Why do we have to complicate it? Why do we have a stock market? This episode is brought to you by Quince. Putting together a good wardrobe isn't actually that hard. You just need the right pieces, and that's where Quince comes in. Quince is all about creating quality, versatile clothing with premium materials, like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from just $60,

• 1:34:49Joe Rogan?

  and organic cotton tees that are soft and breathable. Personally, I got a... A bunch of their stuff and I love it. I really love the fleece pullover hoodie and the flow knit breeze performance tees. They're, they have really simple, smooth designs. Perfect for recording sessions or my workouts. I, I like wearing them on stage. It's just great quality clothing and it's cool how Quince still gives you luxury quality, but without the insane markup. Find your new fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com/rogan. Get free shipping on your order and

• 1:35:27Joe Rogan?

  365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash rogan. This episode is brought to you by Simply Safe. Stuff can always be replaced, but your loved ones, a sense of security, those are priceless and often overlooked in security systems, but not with Simply Safe. In fact, they have a pretty interesting and smart approach, taking action before the worst can happen, instead of after. Their smart cameras can alert real agents to any threats and those agents can take action immediately. That's why 6 million people already trust and use Simply Safe. It's important to protect

• 1:36:09Joe Rogan?

  your family and no one deserves to feel like their home isn't safe. So use Simply Safe. Right now, get 60% off your plan with professional monitoring at simplysafe.com/rogan. That's simplysafe.com/rogan. And when you order, let them know we sent you. In the survey, it helps to support the show. Simply Safe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 1:36:31Speaker 03

  I don't know if the stock market itself is the problem. I mean, stocks, the whole idea is just to find a, you know, a, a, a more, a efficient way for me to sell you shares in my company. That's all it is, but the underlying problem is not the market in my view. It's not the existence of the stock market. It's the government intervening into the No market forces in a way that do not result in a good outcome. And often that is at the behest of industry. When government, there needs to be some government regulations.

• 1:37:06Joe Rogan?

  So that's the problem. The problem is that corporations have money. They can use that money to influence laws, influence government.

• 1:37:13Speaker 03

  That is a significant part of the problem because, look, most regulatory agencies are born out of some crisis, right?

• 1:37:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:37:24Speaker 03

  So they often start as a great idea, like people wanting to do good, members of our Congress wanting to do good. But then who's got the time, money and inclination to influence that regulatory agency? You? Well, you do have some money, but you, me? Who? No, it's going to be even with, even wealthy folks don't have it. They don't, they're not going to do it. The very, it's not even the lobbyists per se. It's the very industry they're trying to regulate. They have the money, time, patience, inclination to do that, to create the revolving door, right?

• 1:37:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:37:59Speaker 03

  Think about it like this. Article one of the Constitution creates Congress, right? First article. And what's its purpose, primary purpose is to pass laws, right? How many laws a year is it passed, you think, approximately? About 200, okay?

• 1:38:16Speaker 03

  Our agencies on the federal government, do you know how many regulations which have the same exact weight as law, are, they pass every year?

• 1:38:23Joe Rogan?

  Can I guess?

• 1:38:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:24Joe Rogan?

  2,000.

• 1:38:26Speaker 03

  It depends on the year, but often more.

• 1:38:28Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:38:28Speaker 03

  Yes. There's a chart on this, I'm sure it's going to be pulled up. But it's not, but it's something to that effect, depends on the year, but somewhere between, let's say, 100, 300, 2,000's on the other side. And who are those folks passing? Are they part of the Article One, the constitutional branch supposed to pass laws? They're elected representatives? No.

• 1:38:48Speaker 03

  The unelected bureaucrats, sitting there and you've named your alphabet agency that you've probably never heard of, that pass these regs that are the same force of law. And who's really has, again, the time and inclination to influence them? It's often the very industry. So it starts as a good idea, but unfortunately, it ends up being what the literature calls, this is the political science literature, came out of Harvard and Yale and all those places, they don't want to talk about it today, captive agencies. Okay? That's what they often become. CDC, FDA, and very much are, to varying degrees, depending on what they're doing, are very

• 1:39:32Speaker 03

  much captive agencies, when you look closely at it and you understand it. That's true of many other parts of the government, and so...

• 1:39:39Joe Rogan?

  Well, particularly, people don't know, a lot of people don't know, that haven't gone down these rabbit holes, that a lot of these people, it's a revolving door, they leave the FDA, and then they go and work for the pharmaceutical drug companies, they make a lot of money.

• 1:39:53Speaker 03

  Yes. Like Julie Gerberding, who was the head of the CDC in the 90s, that oversaw some of the most controversial disputes about what? Whose products? Merck's vaccine products. Okay? And then after her, you know, she cleaned all that up, left CDC and went to work for who? Merck, making tens of millions of dollars, I believe, she's made over the time that she's been there. So she did good, she got rewarded. You think if she didn't do good, she wouldn't get rewarded? You don't think other people see that in the federal health? Of course they know, they all know.

• 1:40:31Joe Rogan?

  Of course. So it's the golden parachute, and everybody strives for it. If you can get that post, if you can get the top of the food chain over at the CDC, guys, see you in about five years. Then in five years, you're thinking about your Lamborghini, you got a yacht in your future. It's just, it's kooky.

• 1:40:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:50Joe Rogan?

  It's kooky that it's legal.

• 1:40:51Speaker 03

  Look, I don't know if it's as nefarious to that in the minds of people in public health. Let's put it that way, since we're talking about public health officials. But I think that it has a corrupting influence that cannot be detangled from the fact that they're human. It will influence them. I don't think it's like-

• 1:41:10Joe Rogan?

  There's also a precedent. There's a precedent that's been set with many people before them. So it's something they look forward to. If you get this job, you will likely get a job like this afterwards. A bunch of people have, and so you think about that while you're trying to get that job. It's part of the motivation is financial reward.

• 1:41:27Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Well, there was a-

• 1:41:28Joe Rogan?

  Has to be.

• 1:41:29Speaker 03

  There's a Pfizer executive who was serendipitously recorded specifically saying that. Something, it's in my, I have the exchange in my book. It's something to the effect of, well, you know, those who are working at the FDA, you know, or, you know, they, they're eventually gonna, you know, come work for industry, so they don't wanna, you know, hurt industry too much. And the person asking the question says, well, you think that's bad? He goes, yeah, it's bad for America, you know, but not bad for the companies.

• 1:41:59Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem.

• 1:41:59Speaker 03

  That's exactly right.

• 1:42:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is the thing about having an obligation to your shareholders, which brings me back to the whole stock market thing. I know this is a kooky thought, but I mean, if we never had the stock market in the first place and you didn't have an obligation to your shareholders to consistently make more money every quarter.

• 1:42:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:15Joe Rogan?

  If people could just like accept the fact that you own this business, this person, you make a certain amount of money, everybody's doing great. Like, why, why have all these people making money, just moving stocks around?

• 1:42:27Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:42:28Joe Rogan?

  Insane amounts of wealth, manipulating systems to crash stocks. And there's, there's people that are like in public office that say things that aren't necessarily true, that influence the market, and then it turns out they were totally wrong. And then you find out that they bet on it and they made a bunch of money in the stock market. This is crazy. This is crazy. And it's all true. And it's all, it's all legal, which is so fucking bizarre that in-

• 1:42:54Joe Rogan?

  A time where we are completely aware that all this stuff is taking place.

• 1:43:00Speaker 03

  All right, can I put that into three different buckets?

• 1:43:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, please.

• 1:43:02Speaker 03

  I'll put it in three different buckets. There's the bucket of making products.

• 1:43:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:06Speaker 03

  There are companies that make products, or companies that provide services, including financial services that can be useful, like you need a mortgage if you can buy a house, you can't afford it. Mortgage products are a service that are brought from the financial industry. And then there's, I think, what you're talking about, which is the part of our economy that is finance, it's just moving money. It's just moving numbers, where they've got, you know, high-speed computers that are trying in micro fractions of a second to beat out the other guy, to basically triage and make money based on, that adds no value to our economy. You know, products and services add value. And to our life, everything you see around that we're sitting in right now is made by a company, right?

• 1:43:46Speaker 03

  And so, and I'm not aware of a system that has been more efficient at producing products and services that improve the lives of others than the free-market system, with some regulation, okay? I'm not aware of one. Socialism doesn't do it, we've seen that in action.

• 1:44:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:44:08Speaker 03

  Communism does not do it, we've seen that in action.

• 1:44:10Joe Rogan?

  We need to just do it right.

• 1:44:11Speaker 03

  Dictators, but so...

• 1:44:13Joe Rogan?

  Kidding.

• 1:44:14Speaker 03

  So...

• 1:44:15Joe Rogan?

  Clearly.

• 1:44:15Speaker 03

  So, I wouldn't throw out the whole system, is what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that...

• 1:44:19Joe Rogan?

  I'm not saying that.

• 1:44:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm saying that that part of it's good. Now, when you break the alignment of economic self-interests of the companies, the market interests, to whatever it is, protect consumers, that's when you're a problem. And that is the idea, or at least they sell it as the idea, from a lot of government regulations. Well, the company is not on its own going to do what's right in this instance, so we need government to do it. And if government really only stepped in when it was truly needed, it would be a good system. You're right.

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:00Speaker 03

  But the system often breaks when they step in, when they're not needed, and sometimes when they step in and have the opposite effect, when they're really just protecting the industry at the expense of consumers, which happens too often.

• 1:45:14Joe Rogan?

  Is the benefit of the stock market, and this is again nonsense, right? I'm not an economist, clearly. But if we had never invented it, if human beings had never come up with this idea, if instead we just had a free market, what has the stock market, what has publicly traded companies, what has the ability to own stock in companies and hedge funds and all that stuff? What has that done for innovation and for progress and for creating more products? Do you think it's encouraged more products and encouraged more activity in the economy? And we're further ahead than we would have been if no one had invented it?

• 1:45:53Joe Rogan?

  Because it seems like, at the very least, it's a weird opening for people that just move money around and add no value and extract enormous amounts of wealth. So that seems like you've got a hole in your pipe. Like, why are people that aren't even involved, why do they get to make all the money on this? Like, what is going on here? You're doing a weird thing that I don't know if you had to do to achieve the same result that you achieved with a free market capitalist society that doesn't have a stock market, that just has a bunch of companies making money and everybody doing the stuff they do. It's like, is it a necessity, is what I'm asking?

• 1:46:32Speaker 03

  Well, outside of my air expertise, but...

• 1:46:36Joe Rogan?

  Definitely outside of mine.

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  I mean, I'll give you my musings.

• 1:46:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes, please.

• 1:46:42Speaker 03

  So this is just my off-the-cuff musings, and that's something I'd actually really want to think about more. But, so when I think about, you know, companies going public, it certainly appears to help drive capital to those companies because hedge, you know, venture capital funds, a lot of times they're exit strategy. So I'm willing to give you all this, I'm a venture capital, I'm willing to give you all this money to start this company because I know what the, you know, my goal is three to five years from now, it can go public and I, the venture capital fund, can get back X amount of my money. That's my, that's the exit strategy for that investment.

• 1:47:27Speaker 03

  Now, if there was no efficient market to do that, right? Meaning, you couldn't just have a publicly traded market where it's just easy to sell shit, right? To have this public offering. What would that do to venture capital funds? Well, I mean, would they still invest as much? They might, and instead, they might just focus on hard money returns.

• 1:47:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  They want companies that really just make money, you know, cash on cash versus this immediate bubble of equity inflation that happens when you go public because it's now liquid, the ownership.

• 1:48:06Joe Rogan?

  Right, market caps.

• 1:48:07Speaker 03

  I don't know if that answers your question, but that's like...

• 1:48:10Joe Rogan?

  No, it does.

• 1:48:10Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think it does because, you know, your question was a good one. It's far more sophisticated than what I answered because you're saying, what does it contribute to society?

• 1:48:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, I don't think it contributes anything.

• 1:48:23Speaker 03

  It contributes... I just answered it so narrowly and said, "Well, it might add some... it might entice venture capitalists, though I don't know if... I don't even know if what I just said is entirely... like, they might still do it anyway because they'll just might do the best thing now." What does it add to society, all of it have liquid... I mean, it'd be harder to have like a retirement account in the way you have right now to own stock, right? That would be more difficult to put your money in and buy shares of Coca-Cola. Would you prefer for big corporations to be owned by, you know, certain families? Or would you rather than be owned by the public?

• 1:48:57Joe Rogan?

  I think you should be allowed to keep your company in your family if you own it.

• 1:49:03Speaker 03

  Well, you should be... well, you certainly can look at New York Times. The New York Times, the family kept control, if I... my understanding, again, we're outside of my normal area of expertise, but the family, my understanding, has the controlling votes in that company, but it's publicly traded as well in New York Times.

• 1:49:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:20Speaker 03

  If I'm not mistaken.

• 1:49:22Joe Rogan?

  I know people that have taken their company public and regretted it. Like, it's too much shit. You had to deal with too much nonsense afterwards, and then they're like, "It wasn't worth it." Just for the hassle and the quality of life, I would have never done it if I had known this.

• 1:49:36Speaker 03

  I guess it depends what they wanted.

• 1:49:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I guess it depends what they wanted, but the question is, like, if a bunch of people are making money that aren't contributing, they're just like siphoning money by moving money around all over the place, like, isn't that leaky money? Like, if you don't really contribute... Anything, you don't provide any value and yet you're extracting extreme wealth. Don't you have a leak in the pipe? It seems like if that money was just being distributed normally, like the buying and selling of goods and services. That would be a much more like honest society. But would it have the same amount of in, uh, would, would it have the same amount of innovation? And would it have the same amount of productivity? Or is that productivity not just enhanced by this flood of capital?

• 1:50:21Joe Rogan?

  But also encouraged, so it like stimulates everything. So like having these vampires sucking on the pipe. Like ultimately it does move numbers around and it gets more stuff out there. And which also encourages innovation. I don't know.

• 1:50:38Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I think that there is a gray, all right. I think there's a gray area between the second and third bucket. So we were probably like products and services. Maybe we'll make that one bucket because those can have value deciding from many of them. And then there are the extreme, there's like, just like triage nonsense that happens, you know? I put my supercomputer as close as possible to the, you know, the, the, the super.

• 1:51:02Joe Rogan?

  The stock exchange.

• 1:51:03Speaker 03

  Exchange and so I can like make money on fractions of a fraction like.

• 1:51:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:51:08Speaker 03

  That's like the, and then there's something, then there's like that gray zone in between where there's, you know, mortgages, good, okay?

• 1:51:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:51:17Speaker 03

  Help the American, American family achieve their dream of owning a home. Now, uh, mortgage backed securities, oh, maybe not so good. Mortgage backed securities that are double, triple sliced into all these tranches. Getting worse, going down that road. Like there's a degree where you're, you're getting further and further away from the very point of that financial instrument that was, that had good. So I, I think that there is, there's a point at which, yeah, no good. Um, but, but I think we, it's hard to talk in generalities in my mind. Like if you have a specific example, let's go down that road.

• 1:51:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, Bernie Madoff is the best example. Right? Obviously, everybody had to know something was, there was some shenanigans taking place because the returns were too crazy. But look out how many intelligent people invested money with him because he was so successful. Just...

• 1:52:06Speaker 03

  My old office in Manhattan, when I used to work at Latham Watkins, was I think three floors above Bernie's office in the lipstick building. It was on 2030, I think it was on 2040. Nothing to do with him. Anyways, uh, zero. Okay, but Bernie, Bernie just straight up...

• 1:52:23Joe Rogan?

  Stole.

• 1:52:24Speaker 03

  Just stole. I mean, that's not, that's not even a thing. Come on, he just...

• 1:52:27Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, you're right.

• 1:52:28Speaker 03

  He just made, he just, he just stole...

• 1:52:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:31Speaker 03

  Money and gave out like fake returns, as far as I know.

• 1:52:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, he had people thinking that they were making all this money.

• 1:52:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's just... It was a pyramid scheme, basically.

• 1:52:41Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:52:41Speaker 03

  That was eventually gonna fail. I mean, it only could go on for so long.

• 1:52:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think it fucked up because of the 2008 crisis, right? They think he could have kept it going if there wasn't the crash. Wasn't that what did him in?

• 1:52:52Speaker 03

  There's always gonna be a dip, so it was only a matter of time. I mean, he was gonna get...

• 1:52:56Joe Rogan?

  That was a big one, though, and people wanted their money back and he was like, "Yikes."

• 1:53:00Speaker 03

  Just, I mean, that's an incredible, it's an incredible scheme. It's, it's amazing that somebody could even pull that off, frankly.

• 1:53:07Joe Rogan?

  It is crazy and it is incredible, but it just shows you that this is a weird system, that you, you can pretend to be moving money around and you don't have any products.

• 1:53:16Speaker 03

  But it corrected.

• 1:53:17Joe Rogan?

  It did. It's a good point, because he did go to jail.

• 1:53:19Speaker 03

  He corrected, he went to jail, and man, did he become the post-trial of like...

• 1:53:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:23Speaker 03

  Wall Street fraud, don't do that.

• 1:53:24Joe Rogan?

  Don't do that. He became, don't do that, yeah. It's just, uh, it's probably a stupid question because I don't know anything about economics, but I was just thinking that like, couldn't we have the same world and not have that? Wouldn't that be more honest and more beneficial? But it would have to have happened from the beginning. It would have to be like there was never publicly traded companies from the beginning.

• 1:53:49Speaker 03

  All right, let's, let's think of a company you like.

• 1:53:52Joe Rogan?

  Coca-Cola.

• 1:53:53Speaker 03

  You like Coca-Cola?

• 1:53:54Joe Rogan?

  I like a little Diet Coke every now and then when I want some brain fog.

• 1:53:56Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:53:59Joe Rogan?

  I don't want a nice taste in my mouth and an aspartame hangover. Okay, I'll think of another one.

• 1:54:04Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:54:05Joe Rogan?

  Chevy.

• 1:54:06Speaker 03

  Chevy, okay, Chevy. So, I don't know, without, without the ability to raise money in liquid capital markets, would Chevy have grown to what Chevy became? Or at least in the, in the, in the, in the speed at which it did that then revolutionized what a motive in other industries?

• 1:54:25Joe Rogan?

  Probably not.

• 1:54:25Speaker 03

  Maybe not?

• 1:54:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, maybe not.

• 1:54:27Speaker 03

  Maybe not?

• 1:54:27Joe Rogan?

  But you wonder, like, if people were motivated and, and people were ambitious, and we always have been, you know, like, if that wasn't a part of our economy.

• 1:54:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:54:36Joe Rogan?

  I wonder. I bet, I bet it has a pretty big impact, when you put it that way, you think about something as big as Chevy, you know? But it's just, the motivation of money is always going to be there. And if people ignore it because it's inconvenient and it doesn't align with their ideology, you've been captured. And this is why I think what you're, you're talking about all the time is so hard for people that are true believers to swallow. Because it, it makes you have, you're forced to reformulate your entire worldview. If you've been duped that hard by something like the actual data on vaccine efficacy

• 1:55:18Joe Rogan?

  and, you know, who's really profiting and why it's set up the way it is, and what the studies really are, when you realize you've been duped that hard, it's, it's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.

• 1:55:29Speaker 03

  Absolutely. But I will say this, you don't need to go down a rabbit hole, okay? Because that happens to a lot of people with vaccines, I've seen. Not the major, not most, but it happens to some where it's like, oh my goodness, if the government's lying or not telling me the truth about these products, then what can I believe? And I, and, you know, people, some folks can go down some, some different alleys. And I would say that, I would, really, truly, I have not seen anything like vaccines. Vaccines really are in their own bucket because of that immunity. It's what I call original sin in my book. There really is no product, no product that I'm aware of, that operates in this kind of landscape.

• 1:56:14Speaker 03

  Like I said, every other product, the market force will, to varying degrees with wrinkles, correct for the issues because there's economic self-interest. They broke that with vaccines. So we've gone from three shots following the 1986, one before the first year of age, at the beginning of 2025, you know how many shots it was that a baby got on before their first birthday? Take a guess. Seventy-two. No, no, that's their whole childhood. Twenty-nine. Twenty-nine by their first birthday? Yes, on before their first birthday, went from three to twenty-nine shots, including in utero. Now, with the recent changes, it's down to nineteen. And the reason I focus on the first year, most of the shots in the first six months

• 1:56:56Speaker 03

  of life, is that's when the baby is going through really critical stages of neurological, immunological development, right? Synapse, and think how small a baby is, okay? And so, they're really susceptible to various effects. Also, babies can't express what's going wrong with them, okay? So now, in the normal course, okay? In the normal course, you've got a product. You've gone from three of them in 1986 by the first year. You're up to twenty-nine beginning of 2025. Now you're at nineteen still. During that period, you've gone from under ten percent of kids had a chronic health issue in the early 1980s, according to the data.

• 1:57:39Speaker 03

  You now have over forty percent, some data show over fifty percent of kids having chronic health issues, often multiple times the rate, okay? And what are those chronic health issues that have exploded? To be sure, by the way, any environmental insult can cause dysregulation in the body, okay? Including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines. But when you look at those chronic diseases that have exploded, almost all of them have an etiology.

• 1:58:07Speaker 03

  Relating to some form of immune system dysregulation. Look at asthma, look at atopic issues, look at tics. Look at ADHD. Nobody thinks about it this way, but if you look at the public and literature, there's immune markers that have gone awry in kids with ADHD. Okay? So you look at that. Now, I'd say, okay, the lawyers, those who would hold these companies accountable, would look at that, and then they would start looking at the data. And I'll show you what some of the data shows. We talked about the Amish earlier, for example. Okay? The Amish that I represent in New York, there's three schools. The New York Health Department decided that it doesn't like what the Amish beliefs are. It wants the Amish to adopt their beliefs and abandon their real religious beliefs

• 1:58:52Speaker 03

  and to give their kids these vaccines. Otherwise, they were going to impose crushing fines on these three Amish schools. Three schools, by the way, which means a room, no electricity, a teacher, you know what I mean? On Amish land, they don't take tax money. They pay taxes, but they refuse to take tax money, taught by Amish teachers. And so amongst those families of those three schools, there was like 160 or something kids. And what we did is we did a survey. We asked them, what health conditions do those kids have? Those 160 kids, many of them already older, too. So you would know their health outcomes. And this is all in our court papers, it's all in a federal docket. Anybody can go and read it for themselves. Okay?

• 1:59:34Speaker 03

  Amongst those children, you would expect to have, because like 1 in 10 kids approximately have asthma, you'd expect to have like nine cases of asthma, you'd expect to have six cases of this, five. They have none, zero of the chronic health conditions plaguing kids in America today. And the approximately 10 or so studies that have been done, and I'm going to bring this back to my legal point, the approximately 10 or so studies that have done that compare kids with no exposure, meaning zero vaccines, to kids that have had one or more vaccines, show the same outcome. Kids with zero vaccines, almost none of the chronic health issues that face kids today in America. Kids with one or more vaccines, multiple rates of the chronic health issues

• 2:00:19Speaker 03

  facing kids today. Now, that data all exists. I put those studies in my book, anybody could read them. I even put the Amish information in my book, it's all cited, you can go look at it yourself. If you're out there, some of them are even up in the... The market could have corrected for that if you could hold those pharma companies accountable, but you can't.

• 2:00:36Joe Rogan?

  Is it correct that the only instances of autism they found in Amish kids were adopted kids?

• 2:00:45Speaker 03

  There are data and some reports that reflect that, but if we... So there are that, but those are more news reports, those are not... Somebody will criticize you, by the way. You're gonna get criticism and say, "Well, that's not a peer-reviewed study."

• 2:01:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, I had a follow-up question that maybe clarify.

• 2:01:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, and so, we can say, we can go move on to what does the peer-reviewed literature show, if you want.

• 2:01:12Joe Rogan?

  The follow-up question would be, are they even being diagnosed? So if they're getting Amish care, and Amish teachers, and Amish... Is it possible that there are some kids that are just behaving odd that would be diagnosed? Like, this is the criticism.

• 2:01:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:01:29Joe Rogan?

  People say, like, this is when you hear some mainstream suit talking on television, "Well, there was always someone odd when we were kids." You know, there's no... They just... The diagnosis is different today. That's why it's 1 in 12 boys in California, they're over-diagnosing. I'm like, "No, no, I have friends that have... I have multiple friends that have non-verbal children. That... I never had that when I was a kid. That was not normal. That was not a common thing. It was very, very, very rare."

• 2:01:55Speaker 03

  The notion that autism is just better diagnosed, and that's the only reason for the increase, is, I don't know a better word for it than to say nonsense, okay? Even if you look at the... Because they've changed the DSM-5, which is what we're up to, the Diagnostic Manual, that is the psychiatric manual.

• 2:02:19Speaker 03

  That has the criteria for diagnosing autism. It has changed over time. But when you even just look at severe autism, just severe autism, which California has very good data on, from the seventies and onward into today, it's exploded. Okay, so the notion that we just have better diagnoses is not a serious point. But putting that aside, the Amish do go to doctors. Do they go to Amish doctors? No. Okay. They go to regular doctors. The Amish, the Amish, for example, could even go in a car. They just can't drive a car. But, so they can get an Uber? There's different, I should be, I should be more- If somebody orders it? I should be clear about that. Just like every religion, there are different, you know- Okay.

• 2:03:00Speaker 03

  -communities. And so, there's like, old, old line Amish, and then there's old line Amish, and so- Got it. You know, and Christianity, and Islam, and Judaism, and all different, you know, there's different degrees. The black hat Jews, and there's so forth. Right. So, in many respects, they do still go, but, you know, as I was told by one of the main folks who I interact with, and I've been up there, and I've slept there, and I've interacted with them, he told me, he said, "Yeah, you know, there are a few that mistake got some vaccines," and he goes, "One of those kids, they just don't act right," he said it to me. "But we don't see that with our other kids," and I'll tell you this about

• 2:03:40Speaker 03

  the Amish community. They don't have phones. Not, not, not, not, you know, smartphones. They have old school phones, some of them. They don't have TVs. When they're with their kids, they're with their kids. When they're there, at the end of the day, they really are so much more in tune. When I spend time with them, and when I went up there, I mean, it's incredible, you know. We have lost, it's a hard thing to experience, maybe for somebody who keeps like, maybe the closest thing I think of is like, those who observe the Sabbath biblically, you know, so they're just, they're just totally locked in. They lock in with their families for a day, or things like that. And so, they're very in

• 2:04:22Speaker 03

  tune with their kids. They know if those kids have health issues. And those kids don't have those issues. But forget the Amish. Go to the rest of the kids in the other studies that are not Amish studies. The 10 other studies that I just told you about. One is three pediatric practices that are vaccinated or unvaccinated kids. There are a whole line of studies of nothing to do with the Amish community. But if you do want to focus on autism, okay, which is just one potential issue for vaccines, by the way.

• 2:04:52Speaker 03

  What you find in the peer-reviewed literature is that 40% to 70% of parents who have a child with autism report, still report, that they believe vaccines cause their child's autism. Okay, 40 to 70%. That's after how much billions of dollars to try to tell them and gaslight them and convince them that it's not autism, that vaccines don't cause autism. Apparently, no matter how much you beat these families, they're just not going to change their lived experience. And what vaccines do they point to? They often, they point to the vaccines given in the first six months of life. When you ask them, what vaccines you think cause your child's autism? They'll say the vaccines given in the first six months of life.

• 2:05:36Speaker 03

  And then they'll also point to MMR vaccine, which is given earlier than one year of age. Okay? And so, on behalf of ICANN, which is the Informant Action Network, a nonprofit that our law firm represents, we sent a Freedom of Information Act request, FOIA request, to the CDC and we said, hey, your website says vaccines do not cause autism. Great. Please give us the studies that show that Hb vaccine, given three times in the first six months of life, do not cause autism. Please give us the studies that show that DTAB vaccine, given three times in the first six months of life, do not cause autism.

• 2:06:13Speaker 03

  Same thing for IPV vaccine, for PCV vaccine, and for Hiv vaccine. Okay? Each one of those vaccines is given three times each in the first six months of life. 15 injections. Okay? Okay. You say vaccines don't cause autism. These parents are saying these vaccines cause their child's autism. Provide us the studies. They never gave us the studies. I sued them in federal court. I didn't go to Texas. I sued them in Southern District of New York. Okay? Not the friendliest territory to bring that kind of lawsuit. Okay?

• 2:06:52Speaker 03

  Days before the hearing, I get a list of 20 studies finally, also from the DOJ, because they represent the CDC, okay? Maybe they think I don't read. So I looked at the 20 studies. I've read them. 19 of them have nothing to do with the vaccines given in the first six months of life. They were all either MMR studies, or studies of an ingredient that wasn't in those vaccines. One of them was an Institute of Medicine review from 2012 that canvassed all the literature on whether DTAP vaccine does or does not cause autism.

• 2:07:31Speaker 03

  Because the CDC and HERSA, which is the agency in HHS that fights vaccine injury claims, asked the IOM to look at whether DTAP causes autism because it remained one of the most commonly claimed injuries still, according to them, okay? And the Institute of Medicine, which came back and said, "We could only find one study on DTAP and autism." And in fact, it showed an association between DTAP vaccine and autism, but the IOM threw it out because it said there's no unvaccinated control in it. So they threw out the studies based on VAERS data, if you know what that is. So I called up the DOJ attorney. This is days before the hearing. And I said, "I got the list of 20 studies."

• 2:08:15Speaker 03

  I said, "Are you sure that your client, the CDC, wants to settle this case, basically, on the basis that these are the studies they rely upon to claim? That vaccines don't cause autism? The vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism?" Because that's what the lawsuit was about, that FOIA request. He went, he called me back, and he said, "Yeah, they want to settle it." I said, "All right." I gave him another chance. Those 20 studies were put into a settlement agreement between the CDC and ICANN, my client. The DOJ signed it on behalf of the CDC. I signed it on behalf of my client. And a federal judge in the Southern District of New York entered as an order of the court in 2019, I believe it was. And there it was. I mean, I had done years and years of work fighting with them to try and

• 2:09:00Speaker 03

  figure out, "Show me the vaccines don't cause autism." This was the crescendo. This was the end. I mean, when their back was to the wall, they had, they had nothing. There are no studies. They could not produce one that showed the vaccines given in the first six months of life do not cause autism. And here's the thing they left out. There is one study out there regarding Hep B vaccines and autism. It's from Gallagher and Goodman out of the University of Stony Brook. It's in the peer-reviewed literature, and it showed that kids that got Hep B vaccine versus those that did in the first month of life had three times the rate of autism, statistically significant. Gallagher, Goodman, University of Stony Brook, it's on PubMed. That is the only study of Hep B vaccine autism you will find in peer-reviewed literature. If you're going to do it based on the science,

• 2:09:45Speaker 03

  on the published literature, that's the only one out there. That D-TAP vaccine study is the only one out there for D-TAP given in the first six months of life.

• 2:09:51Joe Rogan?

  So when this narrative, which you hear all the time on these panels, on these news shows, "Vaccines do not cause autism," that has been thoroughly debunked. Where's that come from?

• 2:10:05Speaker 03

  Vaccines amen. That's why I call my book Vaccines Amen.

• 2:10:10Joe Rogan?

  The crowd cheers. Have you seen those live shows where crowds cheer?

• 2:10:12Speaker 03

  But this is what I'm talking about. This is why I wrote the book. I wrote the book because in 10 years that I have litigated 100, 200 lawsuits against federal and state health agencies, that I have deposed the world's leading vaccinologists, including Dr. Stanley Plak, and you go down the list, and chasing them, when they're in a deposition, when their back is against the wall in a federal or state lawsuit, and they have no choice but to admit the truth or give the evidence, put up or shut up, what I have found is that the claims they make about vaccines versus the reality are completely different. And it is disjarring. When I came into this...

• 2:10:55Speaker 03

  Had you told me, "Yeah, they don't have any studies that show vaccines don't cause autism" for six months, I'd be like, "You're crazy. Get out of here." They tell you, it's thoroughly debunked, thoroughly studied, the most studied thing ever. They have a mountain of science. Joe, there's a mountain of studies. You know how big it is? It's so big. And you know what's on top of that mountain? Another mountain of studies. You know how, another mountain, there's so many studies, they're drowning in studies that vaccines don't cause autism. But then when you demand it, not the bull crap that they say on TV, but you actually demand it, that's the result. And that, you could pull it up on the internet, by the way, that, that, that, that, that, that court stipulation, it's right there. You could also hear me depose Dr. Stanley Plak in the world's leading vaccinologists.

• 2:11:40Speaker 03

  Well, I said to him, I said, "Doctor," you know, and you have, this clips on the internet. I said, "I said, 'There's no studies that support that D-TAP doesn't cause autism,' right?" And he's, and at first he said, "Well," I said, "Well, what do you think the IOM concluded?" He goes, "Well, I would assume they said it doesn't." I showed it to him, he goes, "Oh, it's the world's leading vaccinologists." He didn't even know this. Goes, "Oh, okay, there are no studies. Okay." He goes, so I said, "Shouldn't you wait until you do? Shouldn't you wait until you have the studies that show that D-TAP doesn't cause autism to then tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism?" You know what he said to me? "No. No, I don't wait. I don't wait because I have to take into account the health of the child," he said. I said, "So for that reason, you're willing to tell parents that

• 2:12:23Speaker 03

  vaccines don't cause autism even though you don't have the data to support it?" He said, "Absolutely." You can play that clip if you want. It's on the internet. And then I deposed in a case about vaccines and autism. It was about it, Dr. Katherine Edwards, who is one of the four, I guess, leading vaccinologists in the world, one of the four editors of the medical textbooks on vaccine, which is called Plakton's Vaccines. I deposed her about vaccines and autism. And I said, "Do you have a study that shows HAB-B vaccine doesn't cause autism?" This was after this court stipulation, the court order I told you about. She didn't have any for HAB-B, for HAB, for the ones I just took, the first six months of life.

• 2:13:02Speaker 03

  So, yes, they say on TV, it's thoroughly debunked, but I'm telling you, that is a belief that is not science, that is not fact. It is not based on data, it is based on pure belief. And they say it, just like they say, you know, Jesus Christ is Lord. I think they believe actually in vaccines more, because they'll kick kids out of school in some archdiocese even, in some other Christian schools far less. Most archdiocese won't, if the kid won't get vaccine. So I actually think they believe in vaccines more than Jesus in some places, by the way.

• 2:13:40Speaker 03

  What an amazing job of gaslighting and propaganda they've done. But I just wanna, I just gotta be clear, because anybody hearing this might think that that just sounds crazy. But I implore anybody who heard me say that, pull up the court order yourself, look at it yourself, watch the depositions, go to PubMed, see for yourself. Oh, and by the way, do not rely on AI, because I've done this fun job with them. Like, I'm like, do you have B-vaccines because autism? It's been thoroughly researched and there's no studies. I just go, okay, great. So how do you, and I say to AI, I go, how do you reach a scientific conclusion? Well, you use peer-reviewed studies. I go, wonderful. So to conclude that happy vaccine does not cause autism, you need peer-reviewed studies? That is correct. Wonderful. Now, please, in a list, these studies that show happy vaccine does cause autism.

• 2:14:31Speaker 03

  Give me three studies. I've had, I've had ChatGPT make up studies, literally, happy vaccine does not cause autism. And I'm like, that doesn't exist. Give me the PubMed number. You are correct. I aim to provide valid information, but in this instance, I fell short. Literally made up a, I'm not joking, made up a study. That's crazy. I've had it. I fell short, I lied to you. I've done this for fun with friends. And so I'm like, watch this, watch this. And finally, I'll get it to admit that the only study is the Gallagher and Goodman study. That is the only study. I will get it to admit, it takes about often 45 minutes to an hour. Really? Yeah, it takes a while, but it will eventually admit it. And they all do it. Grok does it too, by the way. Grok's better, by the way, better, but it's bad too.

• 2:15:12Speaker 03

  And they will, they will say, you know, on all of these questions, they will make stuff up. And unless you know, like, I know the universe of studies. I know it's.

• 2:15:21Joe Rogan?

  Can I ask you this? Do you think that these large language models are programmed with certain truths that they can't fight against? Or do you think it's because they're pulling from so much bullshit on the internet? And so many bullshit narratives on the internet from trusted sources that'll tell you that vaccines don't cause autism? Like, there's a ton of, you know, major newspapers, major magazines, there's a ton of them that have talked about how it's been thoroughly debunked. And then they'll quote doctors and scientists that don't list any specific studies, but they'll say, "We've done exhaustive studies, they've been thoroughly debunked." They'll say that, and then they'll print that. And so is the AI just pulling from so much bullshit online that it, like, looks through

• 2:16:06Joe Rogan?

  all the noise and says, "Like, 89% say vaccines do not cause autism, therefore it must be true"? Or is it programmed to say, "Hey, this is what you say. Vaccines don't cause autism"?

• 2:16:21Speaker 03

  You must hold me in very high regard. You've held me out as an, you've held me to incredibly complex economic questions, and now language, large language model questions. I appreciate.

• 2:16:30Joe Rogan?

  You're a very smart guy.

• 2:16:30Speaker 03

  I appreciate the compliment so far on that score. With that said, um, I mean, I, I, I don't know the answer, but I will speculate, because I don't know the answer, that, I, I'm gonna guess, I'm guess, I'm really guessing, that it might be a mix of some programming, because Google, for example, I, you know, if you go and you search for Aaron Seri's Substack, you get Paul Offit Substack. Why? How in the world do you get Paul Offit Substack when you search for mine? And mine's like, it's not even like on the first page.

• 2:17:15Speaker 03

  I don't even think it's on the second. Now, I, maybe they fixed that, I don't know. So, some of that.

• 2:17:21Joe Rogan?

  Is that using Google?

• 2:17:22Speaker 03

  That's using Google.

• 2:17:23Joe Rogan?

  Let's look right now.

• 2:17:24Speaker 03

  Last time I've done it.

• 2:17:25Joe Rogan?

  Let's do it right now.

• 2:17:27Speaker 03

  Let's do it.

• 2:17:27Joe Rogan?

  Let's do it. Because have you seen Robert Epstein's work? Robert Epstein's been on my podcast a few times, unfortunate last name. But he has nothing to do with that. He is a data scientist. Well, I don't know what his original background is, but what he does is, he is very vocal about how they're using these coordinated, it's very curated, search results. And through that, especially during election times, they can take a lot of people that are undecided voters and swing them, a very noticeable number. Like, I forget what the number was, but it's a large percentage, 10%, 20%, something like that. So if you Google something about, say, Hillary Clinton, for instance, during that first election, you would get all these positive articles.

• 2:18:12Joe Rogan?

  If you Googled Trump, you would get all these negative articles. And if you, you know, asked it certain things, it would give you things that were completely contrary to that, so you'd look at that first. And I think that's you and Paul Offit.

• 2:18:24Speaker 03

  It could be. Maybe it's fixed at this point.

• 2:18:26Speaker 05

  How do you want me to word this?

• 2:18:28Joe Rogan?

  Aaron's Series Substack.

• 2:18:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, just do Aaron's Series Substack.

• 2:18:32Joe Rogan?

  Just do that on Google. On Google, and let's see what the results are.

• 2:18:34Speaker 03

  But while he's pulling that up, I'll add that, so there might be some of that. Again, I'm on speculation territory. And then separately, though...

• 2:18:41Joe Rogan?

  So it goes right away to you.

• 2:18:43Speaker 03

  It goes right away to me this time.

• 2:18:45Joe Rogan?

  You know what it is? They got Jamie's fucking data, and they know from your metadata.

• 2:18:50Speaker 05

  If you ask a question in a word way, it might come up differently. It's like, what?

• 2:18:54Speaker 03

  No, that's what I did. Try Aaron's Series Injecting Freedom Substack, see what happens. That could be the way we search for it.

• 2:19:04Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee, the only coffee we drink here at the JRE Studios. America's 250th birthday celebration may be over for some brands, but not for Black Rifle Coffee. They've celebrated America since their founding in 2014 and continue supporting the communities that make America strong. Last year, they eliminated $34 million in veterans' medical debt. That's real relief to families who served our nation. And this year, they're doing it again, aiming to eliminate even more. Beyond financial support, Black Rifle lives its mission. Every month, they send their employees to support initiatives by the Boot Campaign, Folds of Honor, and others. Giving back to veterans, first responders and their families. Every bag, box, or can directly supports that mission.

• 2:19:48Joe Rogan?

  You can grab killer roasts like Just Black, that's my favorite, Spirit of 76, or the extra caffeinated Wake the Neighbors at Walmart, your local Black Rifle Coffee Shop, or if you're in Texas at HEB. Veteran-founded, American-roasted, Black Rifle Coffee is America's coffee.

• 2:20:04Speaker 01

  Traditional banks are making it harder than ever to secure a small business loan. That's why thousands of business owners trust Cardiff for same-day funding. With over two decades of expertise, business owners keep voting Cardiff, America's favorite small business lender. Apply now for up to $500,000 in same-day business funding at cardiff.co/rogan. Again, that's cardiff.co/rogan. Cardiff, borrow better.

• 2:20:35Speaker 05

  See, that shows up different.

• 2:20:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well.

• 2:20:38Speaker 05

  See, I'm telling you, when you add words, it kind of really fucks up all Google searches.

• 2:20:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but I don't see Paul Offit in there.

• 2:20:44Speaker 03

  I don't see Paul Offit in there.

• 2:20:45Joe Rogan?

  Have you talked about this publicly before?

• 2:20:47Speaker 03

  No, never.

• 2:20:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, too bad.

• 2:20:48Speaker 03

  No, I just did, I just, this happened, this was actually literally just a few days ago.

• 2:20:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think, one of the things that Robert Epstein, because of, he's been on my podcast, been on multiple podcasts, but he's been talking about the dangers of these curated search engines and how it's, it's essentially election rigging. Like, you're manipulating a statistically significant number of people to one side or the other, and you could do it by curating search engines.

• 2:21:12Speaker 03

  Well, the experiment we just did might reflect that my first theory might be less of that, right? Because, look, there it is, it's happenstance. That's why I said, I have no idea, I'm speculating. But it could be, it could not.

• 2:21:27Joe Rogan?

  It could be also your own algorithm, because maybe you were searching for Paul Offit. Maybe you had Googled "Paul Offit's full of shit" just before that.

• 2:21:37Speaker 03

  I don't need to Google that. That's not, I don't need to, I've had.

• 2:21:41Speaker 05

  I don't know when they've added this, but they've, they definitely added on the screen what they call personalization for these results.

• 2:21:47Joe Rogan?

  Uh-huh, results are personalized, try without personalization.

• 2:21:51Speaker 05

  That could have something to do with it.

• 2:21:53Joe Rogan?

  Let's try it without personalization, let's see if it changes. Well, I'm already done a different. Oh, you already put Paul Offit in there? Yeah, I already started searching for that. Okay, okay.

• 2:22:01Speaker 03

  So if you do without personally, it doesn't delete the prior one?

• 2:22:04Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. Personalized. It knows you're a right winger. Well, they started using AI a long time ago. It knows you're a radical.

• 2:22:10Speaker 03

  But I would, I would, I would speculate that the probably bigger component is the, uh, who's got, again, it comes back to who's got the money to understand how these AI algorithms work and to maybe put the stuff out there that it's going to most likely read from. I mean, when you do AI, you, you can get that. I see that like crazy scroll of all the things it's looking at, right?

• 2:22:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:22:31Speaker 03

  So if I've got, if I am a pharma company and I've got a multi-billion dollar budget every year to influence and to market and so forth, you know, I'm, I'm going to deploy that in, in the way that's probably the most effective. One of the things I probably would do is maybe do the things that would influence the results on AI. Potentially.

• 2:22:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I would do, especially if there's no regulations. That's the weird thing about curating search engines. If it's like your search engine, you can kind of do whatever you want, especially if your company, like, wasn't it like, one of the major tech companies after Donald Trump won in 2016 that had a meeting that were like, we can't let this happen again. Was that Facebook or Google? Do you remember, Jamie? It was like very famous that people were like, what are you talking about? You, why, what? How can you say that? How could you even say that? Even if you, you're right.

• 2:23:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:23:24Joe Rogan?

  Like, the idea that you can somehow other stop someone from being elected if the public wants that person to be elected because you disagree with it is kind of a crazy thing to say out loud.

• 2:23:35Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I'm thinking more about your question. So when we found that thing with Paul Offit, we found that thing with Paul Offit a few days ago. My social media manager, my, and my, I've got a, you know, got a lot of folks at my law firm. And we have somebody who does like Google AdWords stuff and, and, and SEO stuff. And then we have another guy who does the, the web related stuff. Um, I know they did some things and maybe with my little measly budget, it had that effect. And so Matt, so if that would go to my second point, that with enough dollar, and who cares about my, I mean, I don't think pharma cares about my Substack. Trust me, they're not scared of my Substack.

• 2:24:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't know about that because even if you don't have a ton of subscribers, it's still out there. And all it takes is one podcast appearance like this one, and people go there. And then all it takes is one investigative reporter to talk about it, to get a, it's a weird time for stuff like that.

• 2:24:34Speaker 03

  Let's see if two weeks from now it goes back.

• 2:24:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they'll, they'll never put it back. They'll never put it back. But if you guys did do something about it, that does make sense, that they corrected it. You complained about it.

• 2:24:44Speaker 03

  Well, no, I think that, you know, they had brought up doing like keywords and stuff like that. Cause I did, there was some emails about, I remember trying to fix it, amazed that it looks like it did.

• 2:24:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't want that smoke, you know.

• 2:24:58Speaker 03

  So maybe it's, you know, it just kinda shows you.

• 2:25:01Joe Rogan?

  They just need to be, yeah, shine light on it. It's the best disinfection, sunlight. Um, I, I just don't like the idea of curated search engines. It's really spooky. It's, it's no different to me than curating information on social media platforms based on whatever your ideology is. Like, I don't think you should be able to do that in terms of like, I don't think the company should be able to tell you, you can't see certain things. And YouTube was terrible about that during the pandemic. All the things that turned out to be true could have got you banned from YouTube. The lab leak theory kicked, kicked off, you know, the, the fact that the vaccines, even if you get vaccinated, you're still, you still can catch COVID. Remember that was a breakthrough infection? It was extremely rare, extremely rare breakthrough infection. Never heard of it.

• 2:25:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:46Joe Rogan?

  And now it's everybody, literally everybody. And then it became this weird fucking, everybody did these weird mental gymnastics where they started repeating, oh, but it stops hospitalization and death. And like, what, what, what are you talking about? You never said that before. You are saying that they were saying it stops hospitalization and death. And you don't even have anything to gain here. You just don't want to be wrong about your decision to get injected and to promote it, which is nuts. It's like people are doing the man's work for the man. They've signed up as volunteers in the propaganda army and shaming all the people that didn't go along with it.

• 2:26:22Joe Rogan?

  And never apologizing, no one wants to apologize for calling people plague rats and telling people that they should have their children taken away from them. Nutty, weird, dystopian shit.

• 2:26:35Speaker 03

  They don't realize that they are the, they are creating more vaccine hesitancy with that kind of conduct than anything that you and I could do on this podcast at all. Cause you know, and like they say, you know, the CDC webpage on vaccines and autism has now been updated. And it says now that there's effectively no studies to show the vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism. It now says that and that we have missed, that the CDC has misled the public on that score. And people trash, the mainstream media trash Bobby for that. While instead of celebrating it as an opportunity to correct course of transparency.

• 2:27:14Speaker 03

  Honestly, people are more likely to trust our federal health agencies when they're honest, when they're apologized, when they're willing to admit mistakes. They don't, they're not there yet though, unfortunately.

• 2:27:24Joe Rogan?

  No, because it's, it's still a part of their political ideology. It's a part of their clan and they, they don't even think about it. They don't look into it. They don't read any studies. They don't read any synopsis of any studies. They just go full bore ahead. It's been thoroughly debunked and they'll argue with you. It's been thoroughly debunked. It's all nonsense.

• 2:27:44Speaker 03

  You know, many depositions I've taken of vaccinologists, pediatricians, infectious diseases, experts, immunologists, where I will say something about this, you know, these studies show that, for example, the studies show that children that have had cancer and measles have lower rated cancers. And they'll go, ah, that's, that's just nonsense. Those studies are just junk. I'll say, have you read the studies? Uh, no, have you seen them? No, but see, but they knew already, you know, they've already reached that a priori conclusion. I remember my deposition, not to go back to autism of Dr. Edwards, where I said to her, um, you have any studies show the Hep B vaccine does not cause autism?

• 2:28:22Speaker 03

  She said, no. I said, but there is a study that shows the three times rate of autism amongst kids that didn't get Hep B vaccine. And she says, well, I don't think that's, that's not a good study. I said, what study is that? She goes.

• 2:28:36Speaker 03

  Why don't you show me the study? Because she hadn't read it. She doesn't know. Why don't you show me the study?

• 2:28:44Speaker 03

  That's that because it doesn't fit within the, you know, the belief system unfortunately when it comes to this. And it's so easy because like you said, all you gotta do is just say, eh, they're just an anti-vaxxer. And you're done.

• 2:28:57Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, exactly. And it's all when, when the entire, when you have a company, like whatever company it is, whether it's Google or Facebook or whatever. And that company operates on an ideology that's not grounded in reality and then they enforce it across their platform. It gets, it's, it's very frustrating and really nutty to watch and just thank God there exists some alternatives. Like you would need a, you need a crazy person worth a ton of money, like Elon, to just go and buy it. And then also show, hey, it's still the number one platform for distributing information.

• 2:29:31Speaker 03

  In the same way that what, what Elon did for social media, if he could do that for search, that'd be great. But I think search is dying. I don't think.

• 2:29:41Joe Rogan?

  I think AI is search now.

• 2:29:42Speaker 03

  Yes, AI is gonna take over. I don't see.

• 2:29:44Joe Rogan?

  I hardly ever search things anymore.

• 2:29:45Speaker 03

  Everybody goes to AI these days from what I could see.

• 2:29:47Joe Rogan?

  Because I can ask a question, like, how did this come about? I could, I could ask follow-ups. Is there any dissenting opinions? I love doing that.

• 2:29:54Speaker 03

  It's good, but it also requires less thinking, so it's bad in that regard, but yes.

• 2:29:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, it depends on how you're using it. When I'm using it is usually when I'm writing, I'm writing about a certain subject. I'm like, well, who, who were the first people to discover these Aztec pyramids? You know, I'll, I'll get into something like that, like, what were they looking for? Like, you know what I mean? And like, you could, it's almost like you're talking to an expert. So instead of it being like something that I use to think for me, it's like a super smart friend I'm bouncing questions off of. You could find so much about things so quickly as opposed to having to go through article after article after article. And like, and that's the one I'm looking for. What did Court, how did he trick those people and give them up their land? There's only fucking 600 of them. How'd they do that? You know, like, you need to fuck, like, AI is fantastic for that kind of shit.

• 2:30:39Joe Rogan?

  But if you're using it all day, like, a lot of kids in my school, um, my kids' schools are getting busted for writing papers that are 100% AI. Like, they were a moron.

• 2:30:51Speaker 03

  It's like PhD genius level paper. Uh, yeah.

• 2:30:57Joe Rogan?

  Those are these 12 year olds are fucking wizards.

• 2:31:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:01Joe Rogan?

  It's hilarious.

• 2:31:02Speaker 03

  It's, it's not good. I mean, you saw those.

• 2:31:03Joe Rogan?

  That's not good.

• 2:31:04Speaker 03

  You saw those studies that came out. Again, not my area, but, and I don't know, I've only read the abstracts. I don't, I don't know. But that, that, the more that technology been adopted into classrooms, it appears the more detrimental it has been. And actually the, the, the markers of what you would consider an educated or education or intelligence.

• 2:31:23Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent. It's a distraction. It's like, it's, there's no way it could be good. You're, you're on TikTok all day.

• 2:31:28Speaker 03

  But if you're using AI, the one thing I will say, depending on the topic, but you probably should do it for all topics is never just rely on the output. You gotta ask if, show me the primary source and look at it yourself. It's so critical in every area.

• 2:31:40Joe Rogan?

  Especially if it's something controversial. I mean, generally I'm asking it questions about something I'm looking up. That's not that controversial in terms of like whether or not it's argued.

• 2:31:49Speaker 03

  You ever look up yourself?

• 2:31:50Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:31:51Speaker 03

  No, why not?

• 2:31:52Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ. I don't look up myself ever. Cause I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know people's opinions. I don't wanna know what it thinks of me. I couldn't care less. I think it's much better to just keep on going. If you're in a public eye, including you now, everyone is subject to an opinion. And there's certain opinions that are just, they're not people that you would ever wanna talk to. And those kinda people exist. There's gonna be shitty people out there and their opinion written down looks just like your opinion. Better to not have any of it. Better to not watch any videos. Better to not listen to anything.

• 2:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Just be a good internal judge. Be objective about your own self and be self-critical to the point where it's healthy and leave it alone. I was watching, like I was talking to this the other day. I was watching this lady who was this very boring, not very exciting lady, talking about how bad the Beatles were. I was like, "You should shut the fuck up." Like, no, the Beatles are incredible. You're just a moron. You're just a dull-brained fucking dork, just wandering through life. But you're allowed to. You're allowed to have those opinions. It's like, good luck finding a bunch of people that agree with you, but you're allowed to try. But I don't want to be a part of it. I don't want to be washing, swimming through bullshit opinions all day long. I don't think it's healthy.

• 2:33:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I do think facing the opinions and the views, substantive opinions, views of those that don't agree with you is an important exercise in life and in any, in every area, frankly. I mean, I'm, you know, when it comes to the work that I do, you know, I welcome having debates with those who claim they are the vaccine app person. I mean, I'm-

• 2:33:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is, we're talking about a very different kind of thing than looking at yourself. Yeah, you're looking up hard-line data. And it's very important what you do, because it's crazy to say that being honest in this regard is courageous. But it is courageous, because I've seen you attacked. I've seen crazy shit that people said about you. And it's like, "Good lord, are you paying attention to what he's actually saying? Or are you some bot from somewhere, some fucking bot farm in Vietnam that's been hired to push a narrative? I don't know." But there's a reality to data that's undeniable that needs to be promoted. And I think that's what you're doing. There's a reality to the data.

• 2:34:20Joe Rogan?

  You really, I don't imagine a whole lot of people are lining up to debate you about this.

• 2:34:27Speaker 03

  Oh, well, Paul Offit and I had an exchange on the internet. First, we had it on Twitter-

• 2:34:31Joe Rogan?

  In person?

• 2:34:32Speaker 03

  In Twitter, no, he won't do it.

• 2:34:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

• 2:34:35Speaker 03

  And then he moved it on to Substack, and it's all there. It's a great exchange. And I've offered him, and not, just to be clear, not like a gotcha debate. I've offered him to have a debate where we each get 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and we each get to present the evidence. So we have a screen. We can put up our evidence, and we can go back and forth. With equal amount of time, so nobody's talking over each other. It's civil and it's based on the substance. I've offered him to do that, but the truth is, I don't need to debate him. I've already debated the world's leading vaccinologist, Dr. Stanlock in a nine-hour deposition. People talk about, you want, we should have a vaccine debate. Well, I've done that. It's nine hours, it's all on internet and you can watch it.

• 2:35:19Speaker 03

  And when my client put it out there and it ended up on YouTube, this was many years ago. It had like millions of views at one point and then YouTube took it off. And then people keep putting it back on and it's just a deposition. It just keeps coming back and forth and back and forth.

• 2:35:33Joe Rogan?

  Why are they taking YouTube? Leave it up, stop.

• 2:35:36Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know if they're still taking it down right now.

• 2:35:38Joe Rogan?

  I hope now the climate's changed enough.

• 2:35:40Speaker 03

  It used to, it used to take it on and down and so, and I've, you know, and I've done senate hearings where they've... But those vaccinologists, they don't want to show up anymore.

• 2:35:48Joe Rogan?

  I offered Peter Hotez that opportunity on the podcast and I told him I would donate $100,000 to whatever charity of his choice. And he like mocked that number as being insignificant. I'm like, well, tell me what the fucking number is. Like, just come on. And I was gonna have him and RFK Jr., because he was talking about me having RFK Jr. on, they're saying a bunch of lies and like, well, instead of saying that, and I think he, oh god, I forget what term he used for me. I'm like, Peter, you've been on my podcast twice. So what the fuck are you talking about? Like, why are you behaving like this? This is crazy. What did he call me?

• 2:36:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, it was something about, it was some alt-right adjacent or neo-fascist adjacent podcast.

• 2:36:34Speaker 03

  The point is it was ad hominem instead of substance. You gave him an opportunity to show he was right in front of the world. He is the vaccinologist. Bobby, just a lawyer, obviously will drool on himself. Like, debate him. What's the big deal?

• 2:36:47Joe Rogan?

  I only did this after he did that. I didn't, I didn't, he had said all this stuff about me because Bobby was on the podcast. And it was one of the rare times that I ever to go after, that I ever go after anyone on Twitter. But I was like, stop.

• 2:37:01Speaker 03

  I remember this.

• 2:37:01Joe Rogan?

  Why are you saying that? This is stupid.

• 2:37:03Speaker 03

  And I remember a whole bunch of people added in, like, they were willing to add. I thought it was over, I forgot the number. It was in like a million, two million?

• 2:37:10Joe Rogan?

  It was in the millions.

• 2:37:11Speaker 03

  They were willing to and he still would not sit down and do it. And the, and the argument that you'll often hear is they'll say, well, I'm not good at debating. It's, you know, he's a lawyer, he'll use lawyer tricks.

• 2:37:21Joe Rogan?

  Peter Hotez a lawyer?

• 2:37:22Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no.

• 2:37:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's a lawyer. Bobby's a lawyer.

• 2:37:24Speaker 03

  Bobby's a lawyer. Or they'll say that, that he's a lawyer, or I'm a lawyer. You know, and what they don't, but, but, you know.

• 2:37:32Joe Rogan?

  Data wins.

• 2:37:32Speaker 03

  Exactly. The substance.

• 2:37:34Joe Rogan?

  And I would let that data win.

• 2:37:35Speaker 03

  The substance should win.

• 2:37:36Joe Rogan?

  I want, if you're right, I want to know. Like, I don't fucking know. You tell me.

• 2:37:40Speaker 03

  I'm willing to debate Peter Hotez here any day.

• 2:37:43Joe Rogan?

  I don't think he's gonna do it.

• 2:37:43Speaker 03

  I'll debate Paul Offit, any of them. They can all, in fact, Stanley Plaken just wrote me a letter. After all these years, after a deposition, first time ever, wrote me a letter.

• 2:37:52Joe Rogan?

  Really? What'd he say?

• 2:37:53Speaker 03

  He said, "I heard you wrote a book. I heard you wrote a book. And your deposition went very, very long, and I wasn't prepared enough," he's a world's leading vaccinologist. "And I will be credited with saving millions, and you will go down in history as the one who's harmed and killed children." That's what he wrote me a letter. And I, I wrote him back, a, a response. I, and I, and I said, "Look," I said, "Dr. Plaken, I said, 'Thank you for your letter. I appreciate that you're writing me finally.'" Because I've reached out to him before, one time at least. And I said, "Look," I, I said, "I, I think we can agree on one thing. I, I, we want to save as many children as possible. I, I want to save children from infectious disease. That's important. I agree.

• 2:38:37Speaker 03

  But I also want to save children from the harm from these products. They matter too. They're not just, they shouldn't be accepted casualties. The tens of thousands of families have contacted my law firm. Devastating harm from these products, they, they matter too." And I said, "Let's work together. Let's work constructively." I said, "Because, look, at the end of the day, if you don't address this, if you don't address this issue," I said, "History's not gonna remember you for the good. History's gonna remember you for all the harm you caused." Because when people look back in history at products that caused devastating harm, which vaccines can do, they don't remember the good those products did. They remember the harms that people ignored, that were overlooked,

• 2:39:20Speaker 03

  and, and those were just cast aside. I said, "That will be your legacy." I said, "But there's time to correct it." He hasn't written me back, so.

• 2:39:26Joe Rogan?

  Of course he hasn't written you back.

• 2:39:27Speaker 03

  I posted, I posted both letters on my Substack, and I tweeted them out, so this way, I figured they could do some good that way. So they're available to everybody to read.

• 2:39:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, um... I think it's a very unique time that this message can get out there. Because what they did when they removed liability and they gave them blanket protection like that, they opened up the door to a bunch of people that really don't give a shit about you. They just want to make as much money as possible. There's the scientists, that's why I always describe like these companies. You've got the people that are making these drugs. You've got these really interesting, brilliant scientists. And then you get the fucking money people. And the money people don't give a shit. They just want to make more money. And they're both together. So you have this weird contradictory world where you have like some amazing pharmaceutical drugs

• 2:40:19Joe Rogan?

  that helped so many people and kept people alive and cured diseases. And then you got the money people who want everybody to get shot up because it's going to make them more money. And those two working together is a very bad mixture. Especially when you have mandates. And you mandate that these people have to be able to inject you and inject your children with this thing that's going to make them money and they have zero liability. Like, how could that possibly go well? Knowing what you know about human beings, who would sign off on that?

• 2:40:52Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 2:40:53Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:40:54Speaker 03

  You know, I had a business idea for you.

• 2:40:56Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:40:56Speaker 03

  Want to hear it?

• 2:40:57Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:40:57Speaker 03

  It's a great business idea. Hey, listen, we're going to sell this product.

• 2:41:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:41:00Speaker 03

  We're going to.

• 2:41:01Joe Rogan?

  Let's go.

• 2:41:01Speaker 03

  Okay, we can inject it into people. Are you worried it's going to hurt people?

• 2:41:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm a little worried until I, I want to hear your story first.

• 2:41:07Speaker 03

  But don't worry. Don't worry.

• 2:41:09Joe Rogan?

  Okay, I'm not worried.

• 2:41:09Speaker 03

  Don't worry about it. Because governments can give us immunity liability, no matter how many people we hurt or kill.

• 2:41:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:41:15Speaker 03

  Okay?

• 2:41:15Joe Rogan?

  How'd you work that out?

• 2:41:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. Now, the weird part is you might be saying to me, you say, Aaron, Aaron, wait a second. But, but who the hell's going to take that? And I'll say, Joe, don't worry. The government's going to mandate it too.

• 2:41:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:41:27Speaker 03

  And you might say.

• 2:41:28Joe Rogan?

  Clever.

• 2:41:28Speaker 03

  Okay, but what if people rise up? And I'll say, Joe, don't worry. They're going to spend billions convincing the public it's the best thing since sliced bread. And then you're going to say, but, but what if people still don't want to pay for it? And I'll say, don't worry. The government through a program literally pays for half of all vaccine guarantees payments to the pharma companies even if people cannot pay. So.

• 2:41:53Joe Rogan?

  Sounds like a good investment.

• 2:41:54Speaker 03

  No liability guaranteed market, free promotion guaranteed payment. It's the most if it wasn't vaccines, you'd say it's insane. It is insane and that is the business model of vaccines. That literally is what I just said. Think of it's just so you're right. It's perverse, but this thing that you're just saying before about like the money men who want to just make money like, look, we live in a capitalist system where we have tapped into that.

• 2:42:26Speaker 03

  That self-interest. But we try to harness it for good. So every company has that to some degree. You know, people have that to some degree, but the idea with capitalism is yeah, but you gotta channel that and you gotta do good. You gotta do a good product. You gotta do a good service. You gotta do something positive. And if you and if you don't, you'll be held accountable. So it's it's it's got guardrails.

• 2:42:47Joe Rogan?

  It's balance.

• 2:42:48Speaker 03

  It's got guardrails.

• 2:42:48Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:42:49Speaker 03

  So, you know, it's it's, you know, because I, you know, a few people are like, well, what are you saying? Like people are sitting there in a pharma company with horns and evil. And like, no, they're just, but they're just, they don't have guardrails and they've and they've gone totally, you know, they've gone totally off the rail. Do you like my business idea?

• 2:43:05Joe Rogan?

  It's a great idea. I'll make talk to my lawyer first because I don't want to go to jail.

• 2:43:10Speaker 03

  Well, you're right.

• 2:43:12Joe Rogan?

  I would think it'd save society. I'd get locked up for the rest of my life, especially if he killed a bunch of people and which is really crazy that none of these people do wind up going to jail. They paid giant criminal fines and then they slip away. I mean, look at the Sackler family. They haven't been jailed, right? Wasn't there like they were going to get immunity in favor of like $6 billion or something crazy, but then a judge kind of put the kibosh on that after Painkiller, the Netflix docu drama came out.

• 2:43:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then, and critically too, I would say it's like, remember during the bank crisis, there were the banks that were too big to fail.

• 2:43:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:47Speaker 03

  So they want to touch those. The Sackler family to me, it's like the smaller bank that they could, there was, I mean, it was bad, but they could sacrifice them. They could sacrifice that pharma company. Are they going to sacrifice Merck, Sanofi, Pfizer, GSK, any of those guys? Are they going to sac, are they really going to sacrifice them at the end of the day, no matter how much harm they do? I don't know. It's hard to see it.

• 2:44:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, I'm glad you're out there and I'm glad you can articulate these points so clearly and passionately because people need to hear it. They need to know what the actual data is, what the actual story is about all of it. And it's better for all of us. And as hard as it is, a pill to swallow, people need to get that glass of water and start swallowing.

• 2:44:35Joe Rogan?

  So, thank you very much. Thanks for being here. I really enjoyed it. And tell everybody your book. Did you do an audio version of it?

• 2:44:40Speaker 03

  I did.

• 2:44:41Joe Rogan?

  Did you read it?

• 2:44:42Speaker 03

  I did.

• 2:44:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:44:43Speaker 03

  I did.

• 2:44:43Joe Rogan?

  How much work was it?

• 2:44:44Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. That was a lot. I didn't, I didn't, I thought I could read, by the way. I was like, I could read, yeah, it's reading. And then I realized, but I had to read the book. It was like, I couldn't read anymore.

• 2:44:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's hilarious.

• 2:44:58Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh. Did you ever have to read an audiobook?

• 2:44:59Joe Rogan?

  No, but I do ads for the podcast and Jamie will tell you. I'm always like, fuck. I'm always fucking up sentences that you gotta redo them. It's brutal.

• 2:45:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:45:08Joe Rogan?

  Talk, just talking is fine.

• 2:45:10Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:45:11Joe Rogan?

  But when you have to read out loud, like your tongue gets all tripped up and...

• 2:45:14Speaker 03

  I'm like, I go to federal court, I can argue, I go to Senate hearings, I can like, I'm like, tell them the audio guy, because we're in the studio alone. I'm like, I really am, I think I'm, I, it might seem like a total moron, but I, I probably am a moron, but I'm just a little bit, I don't know. I felt like such a moron.

• 2:45:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I have friends that have read their own books and they feel the exact same way.

• 2:45:36Speaker 03

  It was so painful. Oh, my goodness. It's like, but I did it. It's done. It's out there on Audible and the book's on Amazon.

• 2:45:45Joe Rogan?

  All right. Aaron, thank you very much. It was an honor and a pleasure having you in here. I really appreciate it.

• 2:45:50Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:45:50Joe Rogan?

  You're great. Thank you, Jamie. Goodbye, everybody.

• 2:46:20Speaker 00

  Some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reused needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

• 2:47:04Speaker 00

  Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 2:47:37Speaker 07

  With Truvia Sweeteners, it's simple to make sweetness part of your routine. From sweetening your creamy morning matcha to freshly baked blueberry scones, Truvia Sweeteners make it easy to enjoy the flavors you love with less sugar per serving. From everyday drinks to homemade favorites, they're made to fit right in. Because with Truvia, every moment tastes better. Find Truvia at your favorite local grocery retailer and bring better sweetness home.