#196 Joshua Broome - "Rocco Reed," Inside The Adult Film Industry

Joshua Broome is a former adult film star turned pastor, speaker, and advocate for redemption. Born in Charlotte, North Carolina, he entered the porn industry in his early 20s, earning accolades like “Porn Star of the Year” and appearing in over 1,000 films before walking away in 2013. After hitting rock bottom—struggling with identity, shame, and a life unraveling—he found faith, left the industry, and rebuilt from scratch. Now married with four children, Broome shares his raw journey of transformation, warning about the destructive ripple effects of porn on marriages, mental health, and society. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.roka.com⁠⁠⁠ - USE CODE SRS ⁠⁠https://www.americanfinancing.net/SRS⁠⁠ NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org ⁠⁠https://www.expressvpn.com/SRS⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.shawnlikesgold.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.hillsdale.edu/SRS⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.shopify.com/SRS⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://trueclassic.com/SRS⁠⁠ ⁠⁠https://www.ziprecruiter.com/SRS⁠ Joshua Broome Links: X - ⁠https://x.com/iamJoshuaBroome⁠ Instagram - ⁠https://www.instagram.com/iamjoshuabroome⁠ Book - ⁠https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/154600565X⁠ Book me to speak - ⁠https://www.joshuabroome.me/speaking-requests⁠ Resources for unwanted sexual behavior - ⁠https://ignitemen.net/the-p51-project Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. For 125 years, Nordstrom has been part of your story. The stylist who found the perfect outfit for your big interview. The first pair of walking shoes for your one-year-old. The tomato soup you shared with your sister at the cafe. These are the moments that make Nordstrom Nordstrom. Big or small, we're here for all of it. Celebrating 125 years with new moments still ad. Discover it all in Nordstrom stores and at nordstrom.com.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  I went there and got drugged. I thought it was my fault. I was filming in Atlanta. It was a disgusting shoot. Like, people were, like, urinating on each other, spitting on my face, in my mouth, stuff like that. I'm just like, what have I become? I was like, I want to die. I didn't realize that that scene was for the most popular website in America at that time. When I heard the pain in her voice, when she said, "Why did you do that?", Satan said to me, "See, you're exactly who you thought you were."

• 1:40Shawn Ryan?

  Joshua Broome, welcome to the show, man.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Man, so glad to be here. What an honor.

• 1:46Shawn Ryan?

  I'm pumped to have you. So we got a mutual friend, Victor Marks, huh?

• 1:50Speaker 02

  What a guy.

• 1:51Shawn Ryan?

  Victor shot me a text this morning, and I love hearing from Victor. You never know what you're gonna hear, but...

• 1:57Speaker 02

  You never know. It could be a four-minute voice memo of just chaos.

• 2:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm pumped that you know him, and that just reinforces, you know, you're good people to be around if Victor's hanging out with you. So, once again, thank you for coming, man. And so, we're gonna talk about...

• 2:20Shawn Ryan?

  Little bit of your life story. And ins- inside into the adult film industry. What got you out of it and being a pastor now so? So, and I'm sure we'll go down a handful of rabbit holes.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:34Shawn Ryan?

  You know, um, throughout the interview, but I'm really curious, you know, it's. I mean. The adult film industry is huge. What's that girl's name? This is the girl that's, she's like.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  She slept with a thousand guys in 24 hours or something like that? I, and I.

• 2:51Shawn Ryan?

  And now like, now it seems like all these other. Girls are like trying to top it. You just keep hearing this stuff like there was some other girl, I think it was in Miami, she was shooting a. Film set or like some kind of a gangbang or something on a balcony and like. Fell off the balcony to her death.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think what we're seeing is, you know, content creation became a legitimized career. And then because we live in an over-sexualized culture, um, and then you, you see the, the, the birth and rise up of OnlyFans. Those worlds kind of intermeshed and it really happened during COVID, um, during COVID, um, OnlyFans, um. Uh, production, um, people who are participating in OnlyFans went up by 1600%.

• 3:40Shawn Ryan?

  1600%?

• 3:41Speaker 02

  1600% and then porn produ- uh, porn consumption went up 400%.

• 3:47Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  And, um, but, but what you would see is essentially they were using social media like a funnel in that. You know, I've, I've, I've met with, um, many girls who used to be, um, in OnlyFans or, um, girls that worked on the marketing arm. Of OnlyFans and the way they would work is, you know, once a girl became popular, once they became, you know, the top 10%. They would grab that girl and they would say, hey, we're going to represent you, we're going to take great care of you. And they would bring them, um, into a studio and they would shoot all this stock footage and they'll say, hey, uh, we're going to 10x. Um, you know, you're the way that you're being monetized because we're going to shoot all of this footage.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  And then we're going to have, you know, 30 random, you know, guys in a basement in the Philippines or whatever. Um, they're, they're going to be chatting with the people, so they're going to have your password. You're not gonna have to be on OnlyFans anymore. We're just gonna shoot all this stock content and it's like catfishing 2.0. Where, you know, you pay per message, per video, per picture. And then you got a guy sitting there pretending to be her and you're talking with these people. And they're saying, you know, whatever in the comments. And they're just plugging, playing stuff from stock footage. So, once a month, I just go and shoot all this footage. Now you got this, you know, this stuff to work with and you're just plugging and playing.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  So now they can be talking to 30 people at once, but they're talking to no one at all. And then, you know, they're getting, you know, 75, 80% of that revenue.

• 5:18Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  So you're not even, so to the person that is, uh, you know, addicted to OnlyFans. Uh, if you're talking to a popular creator, I can almost guarantee you, you're not talking to that person.

• 5:30Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding. Why do you think, why do you think that, uh, I mean, we're gonna get way more in depth on this stuff later on, but. I mean, what? Where does this shit end?

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:41Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it's just, it's just, I mean, it's like anything else you see, right? But it's just, they're constantly one-upping each other like, oh, how, how? You know, how disgusting can I make it? You know, a thousand, a thousand dudes in 24 hours?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 6:00Shawn Ryan?

  What does that even look like? I mean, how do you even recruit that?

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it's, it's pretty easy. Um, and I, cause like I, you know, I was in the porn industry for almost seven years and, you know, when, when girls would do gangbangs. Um, because like guys that were like professionally, like in the industry. For the most part, didn't do gangbangs because a director's not paying, you know, top. Uh, you know, because you, you, you have a day rate, you have an individual rate that you, you make per day. Um, so you're not paying that per guy, you know? So you're, you're finding anyone off the street that's willing to go get, uh, an STD and AIDS test. So you're, you're, you're probably, you might not be paying them at all.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  So you, you know, and these girls, again, they got all these fans. All you gotta do is post a, a story in the comments saying, hey, um, anyone in this vicinity that follows me, um, do you wanna be part of this? Go get a test, bring the test here and you get to have sex with me. And it works. And as I wear like, social media is working like a funnel now where the girls, they're, they're supposed to be provocative on TikTok and in the TikTok it says, go to my IG and on IG there's a, you know, a, a little link in their page and here's my link tree and all my link tree is my OnlyFans. And it's just a, a big funnel, um, to sell porn.

• 7:25Shawn Ryan?

  Jeez, jeez, what do you, isn't Kanye West getting back into the, not, not back into, is he getting into it? He just had his girlfriend pretty much naked at whatever award show that was. I don't follow any of this.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's wild being because like.

• 7:41Shawn Ryan?

  And kids were around. It's like little kids looking at this.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like you see like Kanye go from someone who was having these like, these like church things.

• 7:50Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, right?

• 7:51Speaker 02

  And had like, pretty decent like Christian rap come out and then like really like, go on this like bender. But I would say, man, like the guy experienced significant brokenness in his life and I think, um, to the person is saying, man, how, how could this person actually know Jesus? I think he liked the idea of Jesus, but for Jesus to invade and to, to, to help you, um, to invade your heart, um, you have to surrender and submit and that's not a, that's not a natural thing. Um, especially to the guy who has, you know, millions upon millions of dollars and everyone around him saying like, you're the guy, you're the guy, you're the guy.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Um, for you to say, I'm not the guy and the, the, the way to find healing and wholeness is for me to bend my knee to the lordship of Jesus Christ. Um, that's very different than acknowledging that something exists. So I would just say, um, I think he liked the idea of Jesus and then he experienced some brokenness and he was trying really hard to. To be okay and he just wasn't.

• 9:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Cause he just kinda been up, down, up, down, up, down, but I saw like he, he got kicked off of Twitter cause he just went on this like rampage. He posted like porn, like for, you know, two or three hours, like nonstop, just posting like hardcore pornography right after um that happened, like right after he showed up to the award show with this, with the girl. Is it his wife?

• 9:24Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Or who, whoever.

• 9:26Shawn Ryan?

  I don't follow any of that stuff.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  You know, it's like he was, he was married to a Kardashian and they got, you know.

• 9:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  I, I mean, I don't know what, I don't know exactly what happened, but it's sad. It's sad.

• 9:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you know, well, I got your, I got your whole life's outline right here, but I don't really wanna go down the outline. I'm, I, I just, I think this is gonna be a very fascinating conversation and um, and so I just wanna riff.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:52Shawn Ryan?

  And I hope you're okay with that, but you know, I really wanna talk about, you know, in a lot of my interviews, we talk about like the effects of war and, and, and, and extreme trauma and how to get over it and what that does and

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:06Shawn Ryan?

  The rabbit, you know, the downward spiral that sends you on and I gotta, I just have this feeling that this is gonna be very similar to that.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 10:17Shawn Ryan?

  And um, and to be honest with you, I've been, I tried to get Jenna Jameson to come on here to talk about this. I've been trying to get her for years, but uh, I think she's got some health stuff going on, but um, but yeah, it's just always been a subject that I'm, I've been really interested to dive into and, and especially like, I, I don't, are you familiar with like the, the, the effects that it, you know, that it has on kids?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 10:41Shawn Ryan?

  And, and the addictions and all that kinda, I mean, this stuff is like really bad.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you, you look at, you know, look at research, average age of exposure, three years ago was 11, it's trending towards eight years old now and um.

• 10:57Shawn Ryan?

  Eight?

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Eight years old. And, and what's interesting, so 84% of first time exposure to pornography for kids, it's secondhand exposure, meaning that um, they, they weren't looking for it. They were either on an unprotected device and it, it was looking for them, um, because we, this is the world that we live in, um, because of streaming and things like that, like you, ev- everything has porn on it, um, to the extent, depend on what your definition would, of porn would be, um, and then. Just, you know, being at, you know, school or someone else's home and then it was shown to them. Um, but it's crazy, man. Um, not, not to come out swinging, but, um, I would say probably the most dramatic thing I would share with you.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Is that, um, so a really good friend of mine, she's a, she, she once was a critical care nurse in, um, Kansas City, Missouri. Um, about six months ago, she started a nonprofit and she's just speaking on this full time. Um, but she started seeing a reoccurring theme. And it was that, um, so she was an examiner for sexual abuse cases of children. And she was noticing over and over again that, um, two things were happening, that the abuser of the child, um, was between, uh, 10 to 14 years old and it was a sibling. And she was like, well, is, and, and it was a lot of cases like that in Kansas City. And she's like,

• 12:28Speaker 02

  is there just something weird going on here? And she started asking her peers in different places.

• 12:34Shawn Ryan?

  I know where you're going with this. I think I know where you're going with this. I interviewed somebody. A while ago, or I was talking with somebody and we, we, it was, we, we were talking about, like before the show, we're talking about the sexual exploitation of kids and.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:49Shawn Ryan?

  Are you going into, he told me that the, the number one most searched type of porn is incest.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:58Shawn Ryan?

  Is that where you're going with this?

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I mean, just, just the reality that, so in around 60% of the sexual assault cases that happen to children in the United States, the perpetrator is A, um, between, uh, 10 to 12, uh, 10 to 14 years old and B, it's a sibling. So that's, it's in the 60% in the U S. It's higher in Europe, highest in Australia, around 73%. And, and then. Fastest growing niche of pornography is incestual, the step bro, stepsister stuff. And the reality is a hundred percent of the cases, the kids are addicted to porn. They're watching porn, they're developing fantasies, and then they're super imposing these,

• 13:41Speaker 02

  these fictitious desires, they're imposing them on their sibling. They're tying up their brother and sister and raping them because they've developed an appetite for something that they don't know what to do with, and the porn does it. Again, like we were talking earlier, this belief that you can consume something and it not have a real impact on your output, like in what world does that make sense? You can't, like, whatever you ingest, once it metabolizes, there has to be somewhere for it to go.

• 14:16Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  So to the person thinking, you know, porn's harmless, who can it hurt? Kids.

• 14:24Shawn Ryan?

  There you go.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  In a significant rate.

• 14:27Shawn Ryan?

  Well, we'll get more into that real quick. Let me, everybody starts out with an intro. Joshua Broome, you're a guy who went from a small town, South Carolina, to the bright lights of Hollywood, chasing the acting dream, only to fall into the adult film industry. You became Rocco Reed, starring in over 1,000 films and raking in over a million dollars as one of the top male performers on the planet. You're a man who hit rock bottom, staring down depression and suicidal thoughts until God stepped in. You're a voice behind the Counterfeit Culture Podcast and the Unmentionable docu-series. Taking the fight to the very industry you once ruled, you're now pastor, a husband, and a father of four.

• 15:12Shawn Ryan?

  And something else I want to dive into is spiritual warfare.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:16Shawn Ryan?

  As you know, we got a Patreon account, there are top supporters, they've been with us since the beginning, when I was doing this in the attic of my house, and their support's brought us here, and now we're building a new studio, I got an amazing team who you've met, and so, one of the things I do is I offer them, each and every guest that comes on, they get the opportunity to ask a question. And so, this one's from Stephen Casey. What would you recommend to parents of children so that they could set up their family's habits to prevent their children from being lured either passively or actively into the environment that caused you so much grief and pain and is hurting others, the porn industry?

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know this as someone who was in the military and, you know, anyone that's been around athletics, I have to have good self-awareness before I can have discipline. So for us, as parents, we can't, we can't believe that we can just protect our kids from the world. You know, the Bible tells us that bad things will happen, you know, that the world is not, you know, a safe place. You can't protect your kids from everything. So I would say the way that you protect them is you inform them. So talk

• 16:38Speaker 02

  about sex in an age-appropriate way that is real and that is helpful. There's a book called A Good Book, I think it's Good Book, Bad Pictures. And so I think it's been around for about 20 years, but there's a theme in it that's helpful for even adults. There are bad pictures in the world that you probably will see, but if you see those pictures, that doesn't make you bad. So if you see them, if you're hungry, run to mom and dad. Scared, run to mom and dad. See something you shouldn't see, come tell mom and dad so that we can process it with you. Because if you don't create a space to have that

• 17:21Speaker 02

  conversation, what you don't talk about says something. So I would say that's the biggest problem with porn, sex, you know, in the church, where it's not talked about in the way that gives people a comfortability of talking about it. Because any time that you would say porn or sex and you cringe, you probably have an unhealthy relationship with it, you know. So say, hey, you know, sex is this beautiful thing. This is how you got here, you know, to your son, to your daughter, and, you know, explain it in a way that makes sense. And then also, we need to protect ourselves from the world. The world is a dangerous place trying to come at us. So Bark is a really great piece of technology where...

• 18:03Speaker 02

  You, you know, bark.org is the website and you get to control everything that your children has access to if they're gonna use any kind of smart technology. And what I love about it is you get a report of everything that they see and everything that they're sent. So if, if you're allowing them to use text messages, emails, things like that, you will get a notification if someone's, you know, there's bullying, there's any kind of conversation around self-harm, either by them or someone else, anything pornographic, any key words. And then you can have a healthy conversation where instead of being accusatory of, hey, I, I know that I saw this, you know, you know that I saw this, so, you know, you know, fess up.

• 18:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  You can say, hey, is there anything that, you know, was said to you or you saw today that you want to talk about with me? So I would say that's, that's how we have to navigate that conversation because what we don't say is not helpful, but it also says something.

• 19:04Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Because, you know, Romans 12 too, either you're being conformed by the world or being transformed by the renewing of your mind. So the world is going to teach you, but the prince of the air, the devil, wants to teach you something that's drastically different than what God wants to teach you.

• 19:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you know, I mean, with the phone stuff, we were just talking about Ryan Montgomery, my friend before the podcast, and he, he had an interesting quote, made a hell of a lot of sense to me. He said, when you give, when you give your kid a phone, you're not giving your, your kid access to the world, you're giving the world access to your kid. And that's resonated with me ever since. And, you know, but you had mentioned, you had mentioned it age appropriate, when, what, what is age appropriate now? I mean, you just mentioned earlier that eight years old is eight-year-olds. How old are your kids?

• 19:53Speaker 02

  So my, my kids, so Cannon is almost seven, but so six, four, three, and one. So, I mean, for example, Cannon, last year when he was still sticks, he, I, there's this, this apologetics camp that I always speak at and I teach sexual ethic. And he comes with me, because I'm not saying anything that's inappropriate, I'm saying everything is true and everything that I'm saying is, is biblically accurate. So he, he's heard me, you know, he's, he sits, you know, up on stage and, you know, he's probably like drawing, you know. Paw Patrol or something like that, but he he's hearing me, he's listening.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Um, so I would say it's it's like there, there's no like line in the sand. Um, with kids, just, you know, uh, pay attention to them and just know your kids.

• 20:44Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how do you, how do you bring it up?

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:47Shawn Ryan?

  Have you had any one on ones yet?

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, just like, you know, just the fact that we've got four kids, like mommy's pregnant. You know, where, where is this baby coming from, you know? Um, you know, my mommy's parts are different than ours, you know, yet we're, you know, she's, she's, uh, you know, outmanned in our house significantly. Um, but they're just asking questions, you know, like what, you know, what, why, why, why do I have something different than mom, um, you know, what, where do babies come from, stuff like that? Uh, they're just kind of naturally inquisitive. So we just tell them truth, you know? And I think you, but like, you know, we don't get, you know, over, uh, we don't over explain ourselves.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  We just say it, you know, matter of fact, and it is what it is. And I think like when you make, when you make it a bigger deal than it should be, it becomes a big deal, you know?

• 21:40Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. And I mean, I think about this stuff all the time, you know, I got a, got little, little ones.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:46Shawn Ryan?

  And, um, and, uh, it just, man, the shit that's out there now just is terrifying.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:54Shawn Ryan?

  And I, I, I can see how it will.

• 21:58Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it, it, it can destroy your mind.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:02Shawn Ryan?

  In those certain aspects of, in just so many ways.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. For 125 years, Nordstrom has been part of your story. The stylist who found the perfect outfit for your big interview. The first pair of walking shoes for your one-year-old. The tomato soup you shared with your sister at the cafe. These are the moments that make Nordstrom Nordstrom. Big or small, we're here for all of it. Celebrating 125 years with new moments still add. Discover it all in Nordstrom stores and at nordstrom.com.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Well, another thing, you know, I was sharing with you around like the whole incest thing regarding like the niche in pornography and all the stuff that's happening with sexual assault. But in addition to that, you know, image-based like sexual exploitation, you know, that that's a new thing that's on the rise. And especially with young men, but the importance of like kids not watching porn is this. There's a, there's a new scam that's on the rise. And I think like so far this year, this has happened, I think around like 170,000 times it's been documented.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Where a kid was approached by a scammer and it, you know, they have a fictitious profile. Looks like a cute girl and they have an interaction with a guy and they say, you know, they, they send them a fake naked picture. And they said, you send me one back. And once they send one, got you. Okay, I want you to send me $500 or I've hacked your account. I'm going to send this photo to everyone at your school, all of your family. You got 24 hours. And I think around 150 of those kids committed suicide.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Because as a teenage boy, you're like, my whole life is ruined.

• 24:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, or a girl.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:32Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know. And it's wild around like around ninety percent of those cases are guys. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's everywhere. That's why it's so important to have those conversations because you, you don't send a naked photo to someone you don't know online unless you've been watching pornography. Like, that's not, you know, a rational thought unless your mind has been corrupted and perverted in a way that, you know, maybe there's a, you know, exceptions to this, but for the most part, like that thinking comes from pornography.

• 25:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you know, I, I mean, I was talking to somebody else and they were talking about, you know, how this, you know, it starts, it starts with regular, it starts with, I don't know, Sports Illustrated.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:22Shawn Ryan?

  And then it's, and then it's Playboy, and then it's softcore porn, and then it's hardcore porn, and then it's gangbangs, and then it's, you know, it just gets, and then it goes into the incest stuff. And they were talking about how young, young men, boys get addicted to this, and it just keeps getting, you know, more perverted and more perverted and more perverted. And at the same time, the kids that are the same age, the girls are online and they're getting exploited. And they're only talking to older men online because, or they get, they get trapped, like you were just saying, but it's, it's, hey, do you want this Louis Vuitton bag? Cool, send me this.

• 26:06Shawn Ryan?

  Then they're blackmailed, or they're not, and they're only interested in older men because they shoot some pictures or take some videos of themselves for the new iPhone, a new purse, whatever the latest fad is. And so that takes the interest away from the boys. So then the boys don't even have anybody to go date, and it's like this fucked up.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  I mean, that's why, I mean, we live, we're living in a post-Christian United States. Um, I mean, luckily, there, there's been some, you know, progress in the right direction. I saw Bible sales are up twenty-two percent, you know? But for the most part, it's like the world is looking dark and bleak in, in, in some ways. Um, but yeah, it's, it's nuts, man.

• 26:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, everybody gets a gift on the show.

• 26:59Shawn Ryan?

  Gummy bears.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 27:02Shawn Ryan?

  Made in the USA, no funny business.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Very.

• 27:05Shawn Ryan?

  Candy. Awesome. Horrible for it, but they taste great.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Awesome. Thank you so much.

• 27:09Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you're welcome.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  I have something for you.

• 27:11Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, nice.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  So I have a copy of my book. Um, copy of my book and, and what I love to do to that book. So seven lives that'll ruin your life. So really it's like, hey, here's seven lives from culture that negatively impacted my life. And then, uh, here's seven truths from God's word. They kind of eradicated that lie and gave me a new foundation to stand on. If, if you, you know, kind of like a, a, a, a progressive overloading like workout plan. If you do, you know, 10 sets of two, uh, for 10 weeks, you will get stronger in the same way. If you apply God's word, um, to your life, your life will change.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Um, but man, uh, my life, like just me, me being in this room, you know, what, how, how, you know, like got out of plan, you know, but I would say, um, my life has been made up of people inviting me into places that I don't have any business being into, um, because they saw something in me and people that gave me time that they didn't have. And, uh, so this is my friend, uh, Jonathan Peculda's new book. It says, it's called your story has a villain and he just did like a, like a two or three year deep dive into spiritual warfare, um, grew up Catholic, um, kind of, you know, threw it by the wayside and kind of lived for the world and, you know, was very successful in the marketplace.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  And then came to faith later in life and, you know, he's, he's been part of, you know, some of those college revivals that you've been seeing, like baptizing thousands of people at, uh, college campuses and stuff, but.

• 28:48Shawn Ryan?

  He was a part of that?

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he's, he's one of the, he's one of the people that have been part of each event. Um, him and Jenny Allen, along with, um, Tanya. But yeah, so he's there preaching at every event and baptizing those kids. Um, but it's wild, but, um, because he poured into this guy, Andrew.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  That poured into me and uh just kind of a neat discipleship circle, but I wanted to give you that.

• 29:15Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Cause I love, love giving people, you know, literature that was uh, it's, it's simple, it's clear and uh, you know, it was a, it was, it was game changer for me, but he's somebody that, you know, uh, Proverbs 27 six talks about the wounds of a friend. And while, you know, sometimes you need to hear, um, you know, encouragement, but, but you know, every once in a while you need a kick in the butt, you know, so.

• 29:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Thank you. I can't wait to dive in. We've been tracking this guy.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:42Shawn Ryan?

  We've been tracking this guy.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a good, good friend of mine. So he, he lives in Waco. So he pastors a church in Waco. So a little bit north of me in Dallas.

• 29:49Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Um, but phenomenal dude, phenomenal dude. I thought he's, he's the, he's the biggest tallest person that I know that does not play basketball.

• 30:01Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. Well, I love the spiritual warfare topic. It's fascinating. So we'll uh.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. And he's got, you have to ask him about Victor also.

• 30:10Shawn Ryan?

  I will, I will.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:12Shawn Ryan?

  But um, well, let's, so I know you grew up in South Carolina, correct? And um, I mean, how, how, how old were you when you got into the porn industry?

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, if, if I could, if I could take what you said and just back up a little bit, I think it's um, so important. So um, I grew up in South Carolina. Uh, mom got pregnant with me when she was 15, had me at 16 in a like super small town, like, you know, one gas station, one grocery store and um, my dad was in that town, but never in my life.

• 30:48Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  And my mom worked at this like, flounder and fried chicken, you know, like restaurant. And that it had like big glass windows and the windows, I would sit there and I would eat pretty much the same thing.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  I pretty much eat the same thing um after school every day. Um, this is when I was earlier, but I would, I would uh. I would look out that window and it was called Rogers was called the convenience store and Rogers is my grandfather. And also, so it was in my father was Roger Dell Jr. And he was Roger Dell Senior. And I saw the convenience store and I saw the, the green Z seventy one like pull up every once in a while and um. So I, I, I saw him.

• 31:35Shawn Ryan?

  Your dad?

• 31:35Speaker 02

  It was my dad. And I, I, I saw him. So he, it was, he was in close enough proximity for me to see him often, but never know him. And I was confronted with, so I was confronted with, you know, um. Over and over again, not being chosen. And um, you know, just the way that attachment theory works, you know, neurologically. Just how we develop an understanding of our emotions. It's like, man, um, I had this conflict and this chaos that I didn't understand and the way that I made sense of it will. Must be on me, you know, there must be something wrong with me. That he's not choosing me, so. The best I can do is, is try to overcome.

• 32:21Shawn Ryan?

  How, how young were you when you started saying that?

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Um, I mean. Nine, ten, I mean, when I, when I started like comprehending it.

• 32:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Um, but.

• 32:31Shawn Ryan?

  And it went all the way through?

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, my whole life, you know, up until graduated high school.

• 32:35Shawn Ryan?

  No interaction at all, just looking at him through a window?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, there was probably like a few times where there was some fumbled awkward attempt for us to. Have a conversation. Um, he was never, there was never any malice involved, but um.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  It was just, it was just strange, you know, and I, and in retrospect, um, at a place now, I, I can have an understanding of, man, um, you know, what, what stays in the dark grows. And, you know, the, to, today's the easiest day to apologize for the some, the thing that you did today, you know, uh, tomorrow is gonna be even harder. And, you know, the next day and the next day and next day, it's just gonna compound over time, especially if there's shame involved. So I, I don't think he's like, man, I, I don't wanna be this kid's dad. Uh, maybe he didn't know what to say, and then so much time passed by, he, he just became crippled by it.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  But either way, it impacted me, you know?

• 33:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  And, uh, so then I, I go to college, study theater, I was in a fraternity, all the stuff, and, um, I was sharing earlier with someone, um, one of your team members, I was sharing how my fraternity brother was the one who taught me how to tie a tie for the first time, cause our fraternity, we wore, you know, suit and tie on Tuesdays in a pin. And, uh, they were like, man, you can't be wearing a clip-on, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll get a smackdown for that. And I was like, man, I don't know how to tie a tie. And I remember my big brother like teaching me how to tie this like single Windsor tie. And, uh, it, you know, stuck with me forever, you know? And, uh, just like moments like that, it was, I was, it's this like duality of, um,

• 34:21Speaker 02

  I'll always be this like kid that his daddy didn't want, but also like, man, um, I need guys in my life to teach me something.

• 34:30Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  You know? Um, but, but kinda like wi- with that foundation, I believed at my, you know, core of my being is like, man, um, if I earn enough, if I become enough, if I do enough, maybe I'll feel as if I'm enough.

• 34:47Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  And what I really wanted to hear was, "Son, I'm proud of you."

• 34:53Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  And because I never heard that, I thought I could earn it from the world.

• 34:58Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  And, you know, I was just kind of one of those guys where like everything I did, I found success in. Like I was a good, I was a good ball player. I was good at acting. I had a lot of success in modeling. Um, so kind of took that to Hollywood and I was, I had an agent and I was, I was having more success in modeling than acting. But everything was great. I was living in Hollywood, had a great place to stay, had a good friend group, had a great agent, had opportunities.

• 35:28Shawn Ryan?

  I just want to backtrack real quick. I mean, that, I think that affects a lot of people.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:34Shawn Ryan?

  And, you know, with my kids, I've made it a point, I make it a point to make sure I tell my kids I'm proud of them. Every day, multiple times a day, tell them why I'm proud of them, not just, hey, I'm proud of you. I tell them why I'm proud of them. And even if they don't understand, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's in there.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think, I think what, what you said is, is so important, that, that added layer. Cause it's one thing, um, to say, I'm proud of you, or you did a good job, um, or, or whatever that might be. But when you make it intentional and explain why, um, I feel like that would be even more meaningful and, and allow them to understand.

• 36:23Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah, I mean, kind of all that foundation led me to that moment of, of, of being in, you know, being in Hollywood and, and, you know, still. Acting like an idiot, like living like an absolute fool. Um, but, you know, kind of with all that factored in. I saw porn for the first time when I was 13, um, never, you know, saw my mom in a healthy relationship. She was married for a very short period of time to someone who was very abusive, drug addict. Um, so outside of that, I never saw her in a healthy dynamic. Um, my grandmother and grandfather, they didn't sleep in the same bed. My grandfather was like fishing every day, you know, like, um, bad back or whatever.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  They didn't share a bed. But I just had no like foundation of what is a healthy relationship? What is love? What is intimacy? What is, you know, never had a sex talk, saw porn when I was 13. And I thought, man, um, maybe if I act out what else, what I'm seeing in this magazine, maybe I'll feel what I don't. And, you know, that was kind of the, the start of me living a very promiscuous lifestyle. In addition to that, where you.

• 37:39Shawn Ryan?

  Did you ever, did you ever, did your dad ever come into the picture? Still to this day.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I have a, I have a really great story about forgiveness. Um, because at the end of the day, it's like, I, I, I'd say, um, I love that I get to share. Thank you for asking that. Um, and I, I love that I have the platform that I do today with the maturity that I do. Because when I used to talk about him, when I used to talk about him, um, I think I did it in a way that I was still a little bit angry with him. Um, but I've, I forgave him and it was just, it was a big moment for me because, you know,

• 38:24Speaker 02

  when like forgiveness is easy or easier when you know that reconciliation is on the other side. Um, but when reconciliation doesn't meet your expectations, are you still willing to forgive? Uh, meaning that, um, why would I forgive my dad if he's not going to become my dad? And become a grandfather to my kids? Why would I forgive him? Um, why would I forgive the person that's not going to change? Why would I forgive the person that did wrong and is not gonna, you know, be sorry for it or pay a price for that?

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Like, I, I understand that God is, you know, a, a God of justice and, and justice will be served in the end. But, um, we often find ourselves saying, I, I want to play God in some way. I want to control the outcome. I want to have some kind of autonomy and I'll forgive if.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Not in the, not in God's economy, not in God's kingdom. Um, we forgive because we've been forgiven. And when you don't forgive, the thing that, um, the person who pays the price is you. And, um, for a long time I was dealing with, man, like, you know, it was on the other side of me conquering all these other things, like all these addictions and traumas and lust and all this stuff, but I was still wrestling with a little bit of anger issues. And, um, it was because I would, like, in my heart of hearts, I would say, man, um, the, the messed up stuff that people say about me,

• 40:02Speaker 02

  um, or say about me to my wife, or say about my kids, or whatever. Um, there was a little part of me that said, um, Dad, if you would have been there, I wouldn't have done those things and this wouldn't have been happening. So it's kind of your fault.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  And I had to come to, come to grips with that's not true. Like my trauma impacted the way that I saw the world, yes. Um, but I, I, upon my own volition, I made those decisions. I have free will. So I had to take ownership of my mistakes and I had to let go of that with him. So, um, so I see, I speak about him very differently. I speak with him, uh, I speak about him with more empathy today than I have in the past. Um, we don't have the relationship that I wish we did, but.

• 41:02Shawn Ryan?

  Where'd you learn forgiveness from?

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Victor.

• 41:05Shawn Ryan?

  Me too. Me too.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Really?

• 41:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, no bullshit. After hearing his story and he forgave his dad and what he did.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:17Shawn Ryan?

  I was like, whoa. And he called me one day and told me I needed to forgive somebody for something they did that he, that is a friend of his. And

• 41:29Shawn Ryan?

  I was like, are you fucking asking me to forgive this asshole? And he's, he's like, yes, I am. And I was like.

• 41:38Shawn Ryan?

  I was like, man, after what you've been through, it's really hard to say no to you, but I'll figure out how to do it. And you know what I realized, for me at least? Forgiveness isn't for the other person. Forgiveness is for yourself because you imprison yourself in that fucking resentment and that anger. And it just never leaves. And every time, you know, the name comes up, it's like. But if you can, and it's hard, it is hard, man, to just let it go. Um, you've like, you pull yourself out of that prison.

• 42:20Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, but I learned that from Victor too. And I tell people that and I thought, you know, I don't, I don't know if it resonates or not, but you have to think of that's how, that's how I have to think of it. If I don't forgive this person, it's going to eat me alive.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:35Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, and it will eat you alive.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:39Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, and when I was able to do it, like it, man, it's like having a 10,000 pound rucksack lifted off your back.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:48Shawn Ryan?

  But, so, so you forgave your dad?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:53Shawn Ryan?

  Did you tell him that?

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:55Shawn Ryan?

  How did that go?

• 42:57Speaker 02

  I mean, it was super emotional. I mean, I was, I was so like, I'd made up my mind what I was gonna say before, you know, it got too far. So as soon as I got him on the phone, I said it soon and, um, he apologized and.

• 43:14Shawn Ryan?

  What did he say?

• 43:16Speaker 02

  He, he didn't, I, I don't remember much about it, you know, it was more, it wasn't this like, he's not an emotional guy, you know, it was like, it wasn't like I conjured up in my head. I thought it was gonna be this,

• 43:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  like great, this groundbreaking moment where, you know, I thought it was gonna be like, you know, Rocky and Apollo, like, you know, dapping up on the beach. Um, but yeah, I mean.

• 43:42Shawn Ryan?

  What did you say?

• 43:43Speaker 02

  I said, I, well, I said, I, I'm, I'm sorry that I blamed you for every bad thing that I've ever done.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  And I've been holding a lot of resentment for you not being there. And I missed you a lot. I needed you.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  But the frustration that I have in my life and the unforgiveness that I have in my heart, I want to let it go.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  And he pretty much said me too, you know, he said he was sorry for not being there.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  That was kind of it. And I think, you know, my prayer is that my life and the way that I pursue him is healing for him in some way because I can't imagine what goes on in his head and his heart internally.

• 44:38Shawn Ryan?

  That's what I was just gonna say too. Another thing that kind of, it helps me is knowing like,

• 44:47Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, you have to be able to like, I guess you don't have to, but to put yourself in their shoes and to have to carry the guilt of never being around.

• 45:03Shawn Ryan?

  Had a massive

• 45:06Shawn Ryan?

  part in how things turned out or how they didn't turn out.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:10Shawn Ryan?

  And, I mean,

• 45:15Shawn Ryan?

  they're gonna carry that shit for the rest of their life. They think about this stuff unless they're a total narcissist.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:21Shawn Ryan?

  You know, which most people aren't. I mean, that's every day of their life that's haunting them.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:27Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and, and.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  And that impacts everyone they touch.

• 45:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yep, yep.

• 45:33Speaker 00

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• 46:03Speaker 01

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• 46:34Shawn Ryan?

  Man, well, all right, so back to, back to Hollywood.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, yeah, so kind of all that leading up to me being in Hollywood. And, um, I was at this, uh, this bar, um, Saddle Ranch. So like mechanical bulls and all this stuff. And, uh, these three girls walk up to me and they were headhunters for the porn industry. And they worked with a porn agent and they asked me straight up like, hey, um, would you be interested in being in a porn? And I was like,

• 47:12Speaker 02

  not really, you know, but maybe, um, I didn't have a, I think it's like when you don't have a good reason to say no, sometimes you say yes to something you should say no to, you know? But they, you know, like, some people asked me like, was, is there a correlation between sex trafficking and the porn industry? And think about trafficking, you know, generally involves force, fraud and coercion. And, you know, people ask me, well, you know, is that, does some of that exist in the porn industry? It doesn't exist. It is completely dependent on it.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  It's manipulation is, you know, a, a, at the cornerstone of the porn industry. And that the girls were trained to use language where they're in a place where, you know, a lot of people are trying to make it and they're using, you know, meet with our agent and you'll do an interview and you'll, you know, he'll help you with your career and, and all that stuff, you know, you'll, and it's, it's almost like,

• 48:20Speaker 02

  You know, when, when we say things or when we call things different than what they are, it creates this unrealistic barrier. And that, you know, we, we say, um, we don't wanna say porn. We say adult film industry, yet porn is a word that is from the, the Greek New Testament. So, pornia, um, and it's, you know, but we, we wanna say adult film industry. But when we say that, trying not to be abrasive, what are we saying? We, we're insinuating that that's adult behavior. That's how adults act, you know? Um, so it's just so interesting that they would use specific language of saying agent, this and that. And then they, essentially they're like, hey, if you want to do this, oh, you know, you'll meet with our agent.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  And I was like, you know, I've been watching porn for a long time. I've been acting like an idiot forever. If I get paid for what I'm already doing, like, maybe, you know, that would be cool.

• 49:15Shawn Ryan?

  How old are you at this point?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Twenty-two.

• 49:18Shawn Ryan?

  You're only twenty-two?

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  And, uh,

• 49:21Shawn Ryan?

  I could, I mean, just being totally honest, if I was twenty-two and got approached with that, I probably would've been, yes.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:28Shawn Ryan?

  You're gonna pay me to bang hot women?

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:31Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:33Shawn Ryan?

  Let's do it.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  That's pretty much what I heard.

• 49:34Shawn Ryan?

  Sign.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, and I go and I meet with this guy and, um,

• 49:39Shawn Ryan?

  And it's three attractive women.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Three smoking hot girls.

• 49:43Shawn Ryan?

  Approach.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, um, yeah, so I, I'm like, sure, I'll, I'll meet with the guy, you know, like,

• 49:50Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  And I thought, so I, I had, I had like in my head, I'm like, if it's weird, I'll just, you know, hi, if, if I'm, if I go to the place and it's like,

• 50:02Speaker 02

  you know, at a hostel or at like a, you know,

• 50:05Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Some sketchy like motel and he's like a guy like picking lint out of his belly button, you know, I'm just gonna get out of there. But it was at, you know, a, a, uh, like a business complex, like in Studio City, adjacent to Universal Studios. Walk in, you know, they brought me in through like the, like underground like parking garages. And they're just like, you know, the Bentleys and Beamers everywhere. And I go up and, Walk through this hallway and he's got, you know, almost like if you were a sport agent, how you would have all, you know, any players you represent. So there were, you know, anyone that was on the cover of Penthouse, Playboy, Hustler, whatever. And I'm walking through and sit there reception. It's like, you know, his, his name is Derek.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  And like Derek will be right with you. And I'm waiting and there's like porn on the, you know, the coffee table in the, you know, waiting area. He calls me into his office and sits me down. He's like, so tell me, um, how did you grow up? What are you doing in LA and, um, what do you hope to accomplish?

• 51:12Shawn Ryan?

  How did you grow up?

• 51:13Speaker 02

  I know, but like in, in retrospect, I didn't think about it, but not-

• 51:16Shawn Ryan?

  Looking for broken homes.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, yeah. I was like, uh, did, did you grow up not having something that I can, that I can use to manipulate you to do what I want so I can extract value from you? A hundred percent yes. That's what he was saying, but I was too naive to hear it. How'd you grow up? Just me and my mom. Perfect. You know, should have been a red, a red flag. It was a green flag for him. Um, what do you, you know, what do you, you know, what are you doing in LA? Modeling, acting, you know, doing what most people are out here doing, trying to make it, trying to live out my dream, whatever.

• 51:47Shawn Ryan?

  What year is this?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Uh, this is two thousand six.

• 51:53Shawn Ryan?

  Two thousand six.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  And, um, and then he was like, well, what do you hope to accomplish? And I was like, yes, be famous. And, um, what's sad about that is, you know, famous is, you know, a, objective. It's, it's fictitious. Because, you know, if you think, um, you know, if, if enough people know, you know, how many people need to know who I am to equate to being famous? Like, how many followers do you need to have? You know, like what's, what's the mark? And if there's no mark, there's no measure. If there's no measure, there's no reality, you know? And if you, if you get to the place that you thought if you would get to, that you would feel

• 52:34Speaker 02

  some sort of way, and you don't, you just increase the measure. Um, you know, being rich is the same way. It's like, if I had this, I would feel that, you know, over and over again. And we, we know the deal. It doesn't work. But I thought, man, if I become somebody, I will feel like I'm somebody. And again, what I was trying to do is I was, I was trying to, you know, stack the scale in my favor enough where-

• 53:03Speaker 02

  This, the kid that didn't have the dad would feel like I was wanted, seen, heard, known. And he kind of spoke into all that. He's like, man, he's like, you've got acting experience. Um, the porn industry is shifting. We're parroting all these movies. They're doing big films. Like you can be the lead in all these. Um, you can make a ton of money. Like you can do like by doing the films and you can do, you know, marketing with this. I've got deals with clubs in Vegas. They'll bring you out. You know, you'll sit in the VIP and they'll, they'll pay you $10,000 just to be there. You know, like all this stuff. And, you know, like my career was going okay, um, but I was having more success modeling than I was acting.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  I really wanted to act. That was my passion. Um, but I, but there was a part of me, again, I couldn't shake that like, man, um, maybe I'm just not good enough to make it, you know, at 22, um, you know, your modeling career is, is not peaked out, but you know, most people have their, their best years modeling like 16 to 21. Um, not, that's not definitively true across the board, but you know, a lot of people do. Acting has this big, you know, a lot longer, you know, range.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  And I just thought, man, I just don't have the capability of being successful because what, you know, what was that based on? Well, me, you know, comparing myself on my peers. And a lot of people that were in the same network as me or even had the same agent as me, they were doing, you know, they had booked their first lead role or they've done this and they've done that. And I hadn't quite done as much as they've done, so I must not be good enough. And I thought, man, uh, maybe this is just a, you know, a counterfeit version of the dream that I have and I, I should hop on this boat before it leaves because maybe this is as good as it's going to get for me.

• 55:04Shawn Ryan?

  Did he tell you that as well during the meeting? Did he destroy your dreams of what you wanted to do to get what he wanted?

• 55:10Speaker 02

  I did that to myself.

• 55:11Shawn Ryan?

  You did that to yourself? He threw all this money on, on, and everything on you, right?

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:16Shawn Ryan?

  Right at the get go?

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I, and I, and I said, okay, well, you know, where, where do we start? And it's so interesting because-

• 55:23Shawn Ryan?

  You were already in before you were in.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, well, at least I was like, well, I'm, I'm, I'll do one. You know? I'll do one, we'll see, you know? And, um, he's like, okay, well, you gotta go get a full STD test and AIDS test. And, um, when that panel comes back, it generally takes 24 hours when that panel comes back. Um, you know, I'll set up a shoot for you. And I was like, you know, great, sounds good. I'm thinking like, all right, I'm, I'm gonna get paid to like, you know, take a camcorder and go like, hook up with this hot girl and, and then I'm gonna get a check.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  I do the test. I go there and it's full blown like, like any other like, you know, the biggest project I've done. Yeah, I, I walk in as a receptionist and it's so interesting. I'd, I'd love to, to, to dig into this, um, come back to it. So they give me paperwork to sign. This is how you get paid. Sign here, sign here, sign here. So, so many people-

• 56:29Shawn Ryan?

  They on the IP.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, all of it.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, all of it, a hundred percent. So, so, so many people ask, you know, they just like, especially when they see that I'm a Christian and specifically see that I do ministry vocationally. Um, they're like, well, um, did you give the money back? And are, what are you doing the, the, with the residuals? What are you doing with the royalties? Royalties and residuals don't exist in porn. You're a day rate employee and you, you give away everything. But not only do you sign away everything, what you're signing, the last thing you sign is, it, it's saying that, um, they reserve the right to, uh, disperse and to sell to as many third parties for, and, and, you know, a, a forever, you know, time limit.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Um, so they, so what happens is you do a porn and all of a sudden, my pictures are on dating sites, my pictures are on sex toys, my pictures are on billboards. Am I compensated for any of that? No.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  You know, um, but anyway, I signed all that paperwork and I walk in and there's, you know, girls in a makeup chair and, you know, like a big, you know, studio, there's catering, there's all this stuff. And then there's this like daybed and there's this like sea of lights around this girl and, you know, the, the P A. That's with me is like, that's the girl you're going to be working with. Um, she's taking, you know, some photos. She's taking some photos and, um, we'll need you about thirty, forty minutes. We understand this is your first time. So here's a Viagra, put it in my hand. He's like, if you've never taken it before, I'd buy it in half. So I was like, oh my gosh, like what, you know, what have I gotten myself into?

• 58:17Speaker 02

  And I'm like in the bathroom, like, you know, still, you know, pretty much a kid, you know? And I'm like talking to myself in the mirror, like, you know, what are you gonna do? And, um, and I felt like I'd gone too far to turn back. But again, everything's so intentional.

• 58:35Shawn Ryan?

  You knew it wasn't the right thing, right?

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I, I'm just waiting on my mom to jump out and like judo chop me in the throat. Um, but, but, but so intentional. I got, I got picked up in a town car. I was not told the address that I was going to. So what did I have to do if I wanted to leave?

• 58:55Speaker 02

  I'd have to call the agent and say, hey, you know, like a kid that went to a sleepover that changed their mind. Like, hey, you know, I, I, you know, I'm scared. I want to come home.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  So I felt like I couldn't make that call. I think so many of us will, will do something and we believe the lie that's from Satan. Uh, we'll believe the lie that's from Satan that, um, you've gone too far to turn back. So your only choice is to keep going. And that's kinda...

• 59:28Speaker 02

  What I did, so I I popped the whole thing, drank a bottle of water. Walked out there and waited a few minutes and. You know, when you take Viagra, you start to feel like feel blotchy like in your chest and. And I was like, I was like, am I gonna pass out? Like, what, you know, what's going on? And um. They kind of waved me over and I never had any kind of interaction with the girl like I never. Nothing? Like, never talked to her, like, I didn't even know, like, what her stage name was, her real name was, I wasn't sure. Because all you do is you, so you sign that, so they have uh photocopies of her ID. And then a a printout of her STD and AIDS test.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  And you have to see that the test is current, so it has to be um twenty seven days or newer. And um her ID has to be valid and not expired, so I had to look at that, match the names, and I had to sign that I saw it. And that was the only interaction I had with her. Walk over to the, you know, to the scene and, you know, pretty much the, you know, this is, this is still, this is, you know, somewhat back in the day, so like. Bigger cameras, so the director in it has this camera and the videographer, videographer has this big camera. And he's kind of like over my shoulder and the girl is not looking at me, looking at the camera.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  So it's like, you know, the the fantasy that you you you become to believe when you watch porn is. There's this like intense connection between the girl and the guy. It's a hundred percent disconnection. No kidding? Well, because the director is telling you what to do and telling you how to do it. And you're not having sex for pleasure, you're having sex for show, so it literally has to show. So you're strategically doing it in a way that is visible.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  So it's very uncomfortable. And it's it's it's performance art at best, it's certainly not sex. Regarding what we would know it to be.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  So I, that happens and I was like, man, um, I felt pretty disgusting afterwards. How long does it take? I mean. You know, it it just depends on like what's going on, what it is. How many people were in the room? Probably twenty. Twenty people? Yeah. It was it was wild. I mean, like, again, like, there's the boom mic over my head, someone literally like holding a sea light like underneath my junk. Um.

• 1:02:08Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Camera A, camera B, someone shooting BTS, you know, um, the most of the girls, they either have, you know, um, someone that's there with them, uh, they would call them a boyfriend more often than not a pimp. Um, that's that's there watching, um.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes.

• 1:02:28Shawn Ryan?

  Women had you slept with before this approximately?

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  I mean, probably hundreds.

• 1:02:33Shawn Ryan?

  Hundreds of twenty-two?

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Or may- maybe not a hundred, but probably a hundred.

• 1:02:45Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  And, uh, but I did that and I was like, I felt, man, that was, and I just, I can't, I just always remember it. So on my way home, I'm in this town car going home and it's like.

• 1:02:56Shawn Ryan?

  What about afterwards? Hold on. What about afterwards? Is there any interaction with the other, with the woman, with the talent?

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  No, like as soon as you finish, like you move, cause like as soon as you orgasm, like they want to take pictures of that. And then you get, you just like, you're, you're like, you're done.

• 1:03:13Shawn Ryan?

  You're shuffled out?

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And then they want to take photos and and stuff.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you're you're out of there. But, uh, it was like, it was so interesting. So there was like showers on set. Um, but I remember there, there was like, there was not body wash in the shower. There was just like dial hand soap. Um, and I was just like trying to wash myself with that. And then I'm in the town car and I'm on my way home. And I was like, I can still feel the like lube in the hair of my legs. It felt gross. And then I got home and I like took this like shower. Um, have you seen Redeeming Love?

• 1:03:54Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  It's just, it's a, it's a, it's a faith-based film, but essentially there's a girl that works in a brothel. She meets a guy that has a faith. They connect and he's kind of like trying to get her.

• 1:04:06Shawn Ryan?

  A faith?

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  A faith, yeah. Um, and, you know, he's trying to lead her to the Lord and also like wanting to be with her. But like for us to be together, like I want you to follow the Lord. And there's this point where she's, and I mean, I can just relate to this so much where like, there's something inside her that was craving the only thing that she knew, which was chaos. Cause like, you know, he's in a, in a, in a cottage, on a farm, now they're eating good food. Um, but that's it. They're on a farm. It's just him and her. This is like, you know, this is pre, um, you know, television and internet, you know, it's just them.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  It was like, she was going crazy not experiencing chaos and she ended up going back to the brothel and she, you know, turned a trick and it, it didn't feel the same and she felt so dirty and so disgusting. She couldn't believe that she went back to the thing that she wanted to be rescued from. And there's this scene where she's in this like river and she's got a rock and she's scrubbing her body. But what she's trying to scrub off is not on a surface level.

• 1:05:26Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh, uh huh.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  And man, I've took many of those showers.

• 1:05:32Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  And, uh, but I was like, never gonna do it again.

• 1:05:37Shawn Ryan?

  It hit you right off the bat.

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  Oh, I was, it was.

• 1:05:40Shawn Ryan?

  Before it even happened, it.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  And I got paid like 500 bucks. And I was like, man, I got paid 500 bucks to do that and like,

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  I mean, it, it was not sexy. The girl's not super attractive. There, there was, there was nothing, there was no positive experience. Like, I mean, I, I could make $500 like bartending at a bar in Hollywood. I mean, there's like 500 bucks for that. I'm like, what a mistake that was, you know? I'm out. But, you know, 2006, different world. So that I, I didn't realize that that scene was for the most popular website. Um, the most popular porn website in America at that time. And they, they, they, they shoot like three to five scenes a day and they post every day. So the turnaround was

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  pretty quick. So it was up the next week.

• 1:06:34Shawn Ryan?

  What was the website?

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Uh, it was like Naughty America or something like that. And um, it was like, so all of a sudden like, a few of my fraternity brothers and then a few other people was like, dude, I saw you on this website. I saw you on this website. I saw you on this website. And then, you know, you know, being from a small town, the thing about a small town, it only takes one person to know one thing about your life. For everyone to know everything about your life. And someone told my uncle at work and then my uncle told my mom and then I get a phone call from my mom and, you know, growing up in the South, like, how much of your name is used and how much trouble you're in? And I heard, you know, when I answered the phone, like Joshua Luke Broome. Did you do a porn? You know, did you, did you do a porno film? And I was like,

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  I was like, I did, mom.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  And like in that moment, like Satan just put his foot on my throat. Cause I already believed there was something wrong with me. But I, I can remember it so clearly because when I heard the pain in her voice, when she said, why did you do that? Satan said to me, see, you're exactly who you thought you were.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  You're not a kid that does bad things. You are bad.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  And then I began to shrink.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  And I began to believe, man, I hurt the only person that never hurt me.

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  Maybe I'm not even good enough to be her son.

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  And then a few days go by and then my manager calls me.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  Normally when they want me to come by, the agency to have an in-person meeting is a good thing. It's like, hey, here's an offer on the table and, you know, let's assess it. Do you want to accept it? Now,

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  your name's attached to a pornography website. That's a big problem for us. I think a lot of you, but we're gonna have to end our professional relationship. Fired.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  So now I'm like,

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  Now what? I blew up my whole life.

• 1:09:00Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, on the very first one.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  So then, like, well, what do I do? And then I begin to believe the, the lie that the only thing that I could do as a twenty-two-year-old is continuing to do the very thing that created so much turmoil in my life, because that was the only viable option. And in perfect timing, agent calls me, porn agent calls me, hey, man, that, that scene went viral. I'd love to offer you a contract.

• 1:09:34Shawn Ryan?

  Hold on. What did your mom say after you told her yes?

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  She was hurt, disappointed, um, told me that I probably needed to move back home.

• 1:09:47Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  And if I'm honest, I didn't know what to say. I didn't say anything because I didn't know what to say, you know? Um, I didn't say I was sorry, um, I was kinda... Yeah, you know, I did it. I didn't know what to do, so I didn't say anything.

• 1:10:12Shawn Ryan?

  How's your relationship with your mom today?

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  Oh, so good.

• 1:10:15Shawn Ryan?

  It is?

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Shawn Ryan?

  Good, I'm happy to hear that.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. But yeah, I mean, that, um, that the porn agent calls me and like, hey, you know, wanna sign you to a contract? And so I doubled down. I was like, well, you know, I'd, I'd found some way to, for the most part, everything that I've done in life, I'm relatively successful at. And I thought, well, I have good work ethic, um, I, I have good communication and people skills, so I feel like I can really figure out this industry. So I, I feel like... I can become the guy. And I did, you know, over seven years, I did over a thousand films. Won around twenty different awards, directed for some big companies, wrote some movies.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  Started, you know, some of the biggest, you know, grossing movies that they've, you know, ever put out like in the porn industry. And, uh, cause they, they did crazy stuff like we, uh, we did, um, like. We did a Star Wars movie and I played Han Solo and like it was think you like, most people just think, oh, they had sex like, well. It was, it was shot over several months, like they, they built a replica like millennial Falcon. Like we had like actual like replicas of like guns and stuff and costumes and grew my hair out and stuff.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  But, you know, and then as I'm doing that, it's like a little part of me was like, oh, this, this is art in a way. But it's like, still, you know, still poured. But doubled down and had a lot of success and got nominated for performer of the year four times. And, uh, I didn't win it until 2012. Won it in 2012 and I thought, man, if I ever won that award.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  That would solidify for me.

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  You know, my worth, if I just won that award, like. I just believe that like something would happen, like something supernatural would happen like in me, like the, the feeling of. You know, worthlessness or inadequacy or whatever I, I wrestle with on the pillow at night, it'll just go away if I won that award. Then I won it.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Nothing happened and when nothing happened, everything got worse.

• 1:12:47Speaker 00

  Let's take a quick break.

• 1:12:51Speaker 00

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• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. For 125 years, Nordstrom has been part of your story. The stylist who found the perfect outfit for your big interview. The first pair of walking shoes for your one-year-old. The tomato soup you shared with your sister at the cafe. These are the moments that make Nordstrom Nordstrom. Big or small, we're here for all of it. Celebrating 125 years with new moments still ad. Discover it all in Nordstrom stores and at nordstrom.com.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. For 125 years, Nordstrom has been part of your story. The stylist who found the perfect outfit for your big interview. The first pair of walking shoes for your one-year-old. The tomato soup you shared with your sister at the cafe. These are the moments that make Nordstrom Nordstrom. Big or small, we're here for all of it. Celebrating 125 years with new moments still ad. Discover it all in Nordstrom stores and at nordstrom.com.

• 1:14:32Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Joshua, we're back from the break. Kind of, we hit your first film, and then we breezed through everything else, pretty much. But I think we left off with 1,000 film, 1,000-plus films. You won the, you won the award. Male performer of the year. And so, I mean, it sounds like you got, I mean, just a household name in the industry. Yeah. And so, you know, we want, I really want to get a snapshot of what that lifestyle is like. Yeah. And...

• 1:15:10Shawn Ryan?

  So a thousand plus films in how many years?

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Six and a half.

• 1:15:15Shawn Ryan?

  Six and a half years? So how much are you on camera?

• 1:15:23Shawn Ryan?

  Performing?

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I was doing.

• 1:15:25Shawn Ryan?

  Every day?

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Well, because like the industry, so the the award show is in January. And everyone's trying to get stuff turned in for the year. Um, to submit for that. So to make it because if something wins an award, then you know, it has notoriety. You can push it, etc. So kind of the industry, um, doesn't shut down, but slows down significantly in.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  December and January. So like, so really like 10 month increments. You're I was doing, you know, 20, 20 scenes a month. Minimum. And then during the summer, sometimes, you know, I was shooting two, three times a day. I do, I think I've done like 40 something in a month. Um, was the most I did. But.

• 1:16:19Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, what constitutes an award?

• 1:16:22Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, you, you, uh.

• 1:16:24Shawn Ryan?

  Is it view counts? What is it?

• 1:16:26Speaker 02

  So I mean, there's. It used to be on Showtime, you know, it was.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Voted by fans and the studios.

• 1:16:38Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:39Shawn Ryan?

  And then, you know, you had mentioned it. On the first, on the first shoot, there was no interaction between you. And the woman, at least verbally. And so as you, as you grew in that industry, I mean, there had to be more. Human interaction other than sexual intercourse, right?

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00Shawn Ryan?

  And so who, who are your? Like, what's the lifestyle? Who are your friends? What do you do? I mean, what is, what is it like?

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for the most part, like, you were friends with, and if you dated, you dated from inside the, the pool of the people who are in that industry.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  Like, your friend group wasn't exclusive to people who were just in that industry, but dating, it would be really hard to, maybe not in today's age, but,

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  it, it was hard to kind of say, what do you, you know, you're, you're meeting someone, you know, at the gym or, or wherever you might meet someone and you're talking about what you do for a living. It's like, well, I'm a porn star, you know, um, that's probably not gonna be someone you, you know, see yourself compatible with. Maybe for a fling, but not a relationship, you know?

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  So, people would date, um, from wi- within the industry, and that, um, I think was a large part of my mental and emotional demise, in that I was dating someone, um, for a while, um, in the industry for almost two years. And she was already popular, became even more popular. Who was it? Like, her, Asa Akira is, uh, her, you know, her name. So she was, she's like the face of Pornhub now.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  Um, she's a spokesperson for Pornhub. Um, she's, you know, gone viral for multiple things, like crazy things she said, but, um, but she was, you know, she was my person at that time, and, but the- Do you guys still interact? No, no, I mean, I haven't, I haven't spoke to her, you know, since, like, well over ten years.

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  But the the thing was, you know, if if all of my friends are in that industry and my, you know, girlfriend is in that industry, you you you live in this suppression of reality in that we would say that we were in a monogamous relationship while having sex with other people, just calling the work in which we did, you know, or calling, you know, us having sex with other people at work, we would just call that work. It wasn't sex, it was just work. Um, so they didn't count. And we suppressed that as reality, but what we claimed as reality is that we were in a

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  monogamous relationship because off camera and on camera were two different realities.

• 1:20:03Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  But then you're faced with, I'm sitting at, you know, Mastro's in Beverly Hills with a friend of mine and he's there with his uh, his girlfriend and uh, my friend had had sex with my girlfriend on Monday and I had sex with his girlfriend that day. And we're pretending as if that's not real and it's not problematic to the atmosphere. And when you suppress reality, chaos is a promise.

• 1:20:38Shawn Ryan?

  Is it an outward appearance or is, I mean, is it always in your head?

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 1:20:43Shawn Ryan?

  Do you actually trick your mind into?

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I was in a place where, I mean, I could have sex, you know, and and I would, I would do them. It's like I would have sex in a, in a theater in front of hundreds of thousands of people and especially in Europe and um, not think twice about it.

• 1:21:02Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, what?

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, they would have live sex shows. Used to be a thing. Like now, you know how people are taking-

• 1:21:09Shawn Ryan?

  Hundreds of thousands of people?

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or you know how now it's become popular to take your podcast on the road?

• 1:21:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  To have that live element. Well, instead of watching a porn, you know, on a screen, you would watch it happen live. That that was a thing for a while. But um, that, I could do that drop of the hat, like no, no problem at all, like, you know, not face me, but you looked me in the eye and shake my hand, tears would stream down my face because that was real. It was terrifying.

• 1:21:45Shawn Ryan?

  Geez.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  Like, that's how much I had suppressed reality.

• 1:21:49Shawn Ryan?

  When's the first time you did it live? In front of a, in front of a live audience?

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  I think it was in, uh, probably two years in, um, but, um, is either in Vegas or, uh, was one of the first times and then like, stuff like that happens a lot, like in Europe or like Barcelona, um, just to-

• 1:22:16Shawn Ryan?

  Do you remember the first time?

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 1:22:19Shawn Ryan?

  No?

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  Everything just became so, like, there was no interaction that was more special than the others. The only thing that like, like, um, I have like real memories around is like the roles I played where there was like significant, you know, there was a script to learn, a, a character to play, um, things that were outside of, you know, the, the, the sex aspect because in a porn, you know, cause like Star Wars, we, we filmed, you know, over three or four months. There's five sex scenes, you know, um, which takes, you know, a few hours to film. So, like, there was a lot of the movie that wasn't sex.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  So I just like that, like that whole thing, that whole experience was very memorable to me.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  But yeah, I mean, the, the sex, it just, the sex and the people, it just-

• 1:23:19Shawn Ryan?

  So everybody had convinced themselves that, you know, that was in a monogamous, monogamous relationship inside that that industry. Everybody had convinced themselves mentally that it, it, this is on screen, doesn't matter.

• 1:23:33Speaker 02

  Or, or-

• 1:23:34Shawn Ryan?

  This is off screen, this is real.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Even, yeah, or either that or the polar opposite of like they're all in and they're swingers 24 seven and like sex is just, you know, sex and, and high fiving someone is all the same. Let's just have a party, have fun, you know? Um, cause some people, like some people could like work as a director and someone be having sex with their, you know, significant other and they would just film it and it would just be whatever.

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  Um, or, you know, and I just, for me, like, again, uh, single parent, you know, like my mom was young, she's a beautiful woman, like, I remember, like, throwing cans of like corn like at a guy like, um, like trying to talk to my mom, like, get away from my mom, I'm gonna protect my mom. So like jealous kid turned into jealous boyfriend, um, which turned into, even though I was in that industry, I was, I like, that was my girl. I didn't want to even want to touch her, which, which is how I felt, but I had to suppress that feeling because of what I said. And I think that would, you know, bring up an interesting point where people say, you know, I love what I do.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Well, if you love what you do, let's, let's, you know, go back to that moment where I said yes to being in the porn industry. Uh, well, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna make you famous. Okay, Derek, you're gonna make me famous. Um, what, what's, what's the first thing I do? What's next? You know, uh, okay, well, we gotta pick you, uh, an, uh, a name to go by.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  Sorry. I gotta pick it, pick you a name to go by. You go by Sudanu.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  Because if I can get you to detach yourself from who you are, you will do things that are outside of and different than things that you would ever do. Like you think about social media, um, you know, the, the, the antagonist on the other side that's, you know, talking trash to everyone online. What are two things that are always common of that person? They have an obscure username and they have, you know, a meme or a random photo as their photo. Because if I can detach who I am from what I do, then I'm not held accountable for what I do. So it's not me doing the things. In the porn industry, very same thing.

• 1:26:08Speaker 02

  I'm gonna get you to go by Sudanu because I can get you to detach yourself from your humanity. That's interesting. Um, so that was, that was the first thing I did.

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  So kind of, you know, with, with that, you know, that thought, like in our mind,

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  you know, who I am, it began to matter less and less. So.

• 1:26:33Shawn Ryan?

  Is there drugs and alcohol? Is there a lot of that involved?

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  I mean, uh, it's it's interesting.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  It's uh, it's really interesting, um, because like drugs and alcohol. Onset, like there was some of that um, before me, like there was, you know, um, there there was always like

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  times or if it was like, if it was like a live shoot, kinda like, everything's kinda out the window, there's no no rules, you know, um, but for the most part.

• 1:27:10Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean a live shoot?

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  Like what I was live shoot, like a live.

• 1:27:13Shawn Ryan?

  Like a live show.

• 1:27:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, where it's like, we're filming something happening live and it's streaming or someone's watching, so we're we're not creating uh, you know, a curated and, you know, crafted and edited product, um, like if if we're if we're creating that, then they want a more controlled environment. Um, so if you showed up to set drunk or high, you would get sent home because more often than not, like in LA, like you would have to get a permit to film porn and a lot of times, uh, you know, they would come by and check for your permit and when they would check for the permit, they're, you know, trying to get a peek. Um, but

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  I I didn't see a lot of like that onset. But is it part of the industry a hundred percent, but it's more so to deal with the consequence of what you did in contrast of being able to do what you did. You know, like people aren't getting drunk and high on set to do the scene, they're getting drunk and high because they did the scene.

• 1:28:21Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  And then once addiction sets in, they, you know, those things start to bleed um, into each other. I mean, there were certainly like there were certainly like times where people came to set drunk, high, um, you know, all the things.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, I've seen it all. I mean, part, part of the reason I'm so passionate about talking about it is as of today, it's over forty people have committed suicide or died of overdose. Every roommate I've ever had except one dead. Um, and these are people, not just like total in the industry, like these are people I knew personally, like friends of mine. Um, you know, people we had meals with, like traveled places together, like people I knew. And when they would die, the porn industry would make a compilation film

• 1:29:16Speaker 02

  of, you know, their best ofs. Why? To monetize on the thing in which caused their demise.

• 1:29:24Shawn Ryan?

  Geez.

• 1:29:28Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:29:30Shawn Ryan?

  Was there?

• 1:29:33Shawn Ryan?

  What should I be asking you?

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, um.

• 1:29:37Shawn Ryan?

  About the industry?

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  I mean, just the, just paint a picture of how like fictitious it is. I mean, like the girls are using numbing cream, um, the girl, the, all the guys are using erectile dysfunction medication. Um, you know, there were some directors that would require you to, to use Caverjack. So Caverjack is, you know, for paraplegic, you know, people where, you know, you would in- inject something into the cavern of your penis and, you know, you would have, uh, an erection for, you know, three or four hours. It doesn't matter if you're reading the newspaper or, you know, whatever. Um, and then the danger is if you use too much, then you've, you've got to go to the hospital, get lanced,

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  um, because it's not going to subside, you know? Um, or, uh, you use it for long enough, then you become dependent on it.

• 1:30:34Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, was sex even enjoyable?

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:30:36Shawn Ryan?

  You know, like real, like real sex with your, with your, whoever you're in a monogamous relationship with.

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:30:44Shawn Ryan?

  Is that, how, how, I mean?

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, for the mo- like, for the most part, like, even if you did that, you would, like, because I worked so much, I would, like, not finish, because I was like, you know, you'd, you'd, you'd wanna save your orgasm, you know, because the, the quantity

• 1:31:03Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  was important, um, because if that wasn't there and they couldn't capture what they needed, then, you know, they would be upset about that.

• 1:31:11Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 1:31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so when you had sex, it was like,

• 1:31:16Speaker 02

  yeah, not that often, not unless you had a, you know, big break and you went on a vacation or something like that.

• 1:31:25Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  It was like, you know, it's, it's almost like, you know,

• 1:31:30Speaker 02

  if, if you worked at Krispy Kreme and you loved donuts, like, the, the last thing that you would wanna do is eat donuts.

• 1:31:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  And I think, like, just like the, like, when, so the, the, the agent that I had, when,

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  the agent that I had, when, when girls would come into the industry, they'd ask them their no list, right? So things you don't wanna do, you know, anal, stuff like that, like, what, what do you not wanna do? So that was on your no list. And then, you know, if a director would ask, well, you know, does this girl do this? No, it's on the no list. But the way that worked was, like, in the industry, your, your no doesn't really mean no, it means how much. Yeah, so the way that the porn agents would work is there would be things that girls wouldn't do, and, um, after, after a period of time, if their popularity would start to subside,

• 1:32:39Speaker 02

  you know, they're not getting as many requests, they would go to a few studios and say, hey, how much would you pay for such and such to do anal? Like, you know, fifteen K, twenty K, thirty K. Thirty K, okay, highest bidder. Then he would go back to the girl. It's like, hey, out of nowhere. This studio just said that they would give you thirty thousand dollars if you would be willing to do anal. And I know you said you didn't want to do it, but you know, you're not getting as any request as you had been in the past. And you know, you do that, you know, they'll make a big deal of it. You'll become relevant again. And then your career is just gonna start to, uh, you know, skyrocket.

• 1:33:23Speaker 02

  She does it, but what happens? What she did, what she never wanted to do, and she did one time, becomes something that she does all the time. Because once she does it, it loses, you know, it's whatever. And they would just do that with girls over and over and over again. At the same time, they would convince them to do escorting. And it's like, you know, they would spend weekends or go on trips, you know, with guys. And it's like, well, you know, there's a check and there's a test. As long as there's a check and a test, it's all the same, is the way they would present it to them.

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  We're making, we're making the client get, you know, the same STD and AIDS panel. So they're clean and you're getting paid.

• 1:34:08Speaker 02

  So they just convinced them that, you know, so that they were, you know, they were trafficking them. Wow. Because it was, it wasn't on like a public site. It was, you know, it wasn't quite on the dark web, but it wasn't far from it. Or not, you know, this, that guy Derek, like he ended up, you know, serving time for sex trafficking because he was, he was extorting girls. He would bring girls in from different countries, get them fake IDs, have them paid in cash, living in his own house. Um, charging them rent to pay in their house, taking some of their money that they were getting paid as their agent and, you know, their landlord. Um, and making the, the, the, the, the people who paid them, paid them in cash. So he would take the money and he decided how much they got.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Shit. I'm gonna go to some, I'm gonna go somewhere pretty dark. Um.

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  Um, so.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  I, I, uh.

• 1:35:12Speaker 02

  So with, with guys, you know, um, they would ask, do you wanna do like VIP parties? Do you wanna like bartend or whatever, like you bartend shirtless? And you'd make, you know, ten, twenty thousand bucks. And, um, I would do stuff like that sometimes and it was almost like, you know, you. It's kind of what we're talking about, like, how do you, how do you ever get to, you know, this place? Like, how do you go from here to here? Like, how do you go from, you know, me personally, the first magazine that I ever saw that like created a sexual thought in my head? It was, um, like, it was, uh, I think it was like, Matt, no, like GQ, like, um, or the.

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  I don't know, like swimsuit version of like Maxim or something like that, but it was just like a see-through bathing suit. Like, how did I go from there to like watching hardcore porn, you know?

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  So doing porn, getting paid for sex. Then doing these bartending, bartending stuff. And then, um, there was, uh, a high-profile company. Um, in the fashion industry, they would have these parties and they would bring out guys and girls to do these parties. And, you know, the girls would walk around naked, guys would work, walk around, you know, in boxers, whatever, serve everyone drinks.

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  And, uh, I went there, um, it was in Paris. And, um, I mean, long story short, I, I went there and, um.

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  Got drugged and raped. Um, by the owner of a very well-known fashion. Uh, well, he used to be the CEO of a very well-known fashion organization. And, uh, when that happened to me, I thought.

• 1:37:15Speaker 02

  It's my fault.

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  This is what I signed up for, you know, this is, this is who I am. And um.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  Then I started like trying to sabotage, I was like towards the end of my career, so I was like. Started trying to sabotage myself and um.

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  Started making a pretty clear plan to take my life. And I kind of looked up like I had this pretty strong pain medication, you know, like how many pills would do the trick? Okay, well, take that number, maybe add two more and I put them on the counter. And I'd separate them, it's like I took, you know, old school vitamins, I used to take like the like Vita pack, like an animal pack or whatever. I'd take like forty vitamins at once, so I'm like, I knew like I take a lot of pills at once, so. I separated them so I could make sure I'd, I'd get them down, swallow them, it wouldn't chicken out. And I set them up like that. Time after time after time, I just could never do it.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  And then um, this one day, I was filming in Atlanta. And it was like, it was just like, it was a disgusting shoot, like. People were like urinating on each other, um, like.

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  Spitting on, on my face, in my mouth, stuff like that, I'm just like.

• 1:38:47Speaker 02

  What have I become?

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  I was like, I want to die.

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  Can't undo what I've done.

• 1:38:59Speaker 02

  Got, you know, more money than I thought I would ever see, you know, growing up. Food stamps, trailer, government housing, like.

• 1:39:11Speaker 02

  Got a nice, you know, Breitling collection and nice home. Do all the stuff. Um, but I'm miserable. And this is what I've made of my life. There's no hope. There's no hope, there's no way out. But I needed someone to agree with me. So I got paid from that scene and um, the directors on the memo of the checks, they would always write something grotesque. Like if the title of the movie wasn't sexually explicit enough, they would write something um, being antagonistic.

• 1:39:56Speaker 02

  Knowing that you're gonna have to give that check to someone. And I, I normally wouldn't do that. I would just ATM, Dropbox, you know, anything other than hand it to a person. But on this day, that was gonna be my formula. I put the water on the counter. I lined up the pills. Um, the wachovia that I banked at was across the street from the place that I lived. And I walked over there. Had the check, waited in line, handed the check to the teller. And I waited. What did it say on the check?

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  It's like some gang bang or like something like that. And um, I, I wanted that person to, you know, some look of disgust. Best case scenario, say like, you know, how sick are you or something? She said nothing, you know? Deposit of the check, handed me the receipt. You know, I got tears streaming down my face, pale, like, you know, shaking. And I'm defeated because I didn't get what I wanted and I didn't know what to do. And then I look up and she had walked around

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  the counter and she put her hand on my shoulder and she said, Joshua, are you okay? Joshua, can I get you some help?

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  And Sean, that was the first time I had heard my real name in eighteen months. Wow. And it just like,

• 1:41:48Speaker 02

  it just like woke me up.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  And I beelined it to my place and I called my mom. And I hadn't, you know, my mom had been calling and texting me, didn't respond.

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  Thought, you know, I, she's just reaching out to me because she feels like she has to, but I've lost the right of being her son. I've disqualified myself. I think it was my pride, shame.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  But I called her and when she answered the phone, she lit me up. She, you know, good southern mama, she cussed me out, you know, for, she was worried about me.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  But then she said everything that I didn't think she would.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  She said, I'll, I will always love you and you will always be my son. And you're so much better than the way you're living. Please come home. So right then and there, I called everybody I needed to call. I quit, I quit, I quit. And I subleased my place pretty quickly and left LA. And, but like when I, when I left, I didn't think I could change and I didn't have any kind of, it wasn't any kind of spiritual awakening, but I do think that was the Holy Spirit in that bank.

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  But very quickly I thought, okay, you know, what, what do I have? What do I have that I can use? Okay. Well, you know, I'd been doing CrossFit for a while. I got a level one certification. Maybe I can coach CrossFit. I got a exercise science background, a little bit, um, strength conditioning, you know, understand that, maybe I can get into that. And then I did, you know, the formula that I knew that worked. Find a good mentor. Get, you know, double down, work really hard, get some credentials, you know, build, build a kingdom for myself. And, you know, I was working with this guy, Jason Davidson. He was the strength and conditioning coach for the Carolina Hurricanes.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  He was leading the Thor program at Fort Bragg. Plugged me into some right circles. Vows for me. And, uh, all of a sudden, you know, I had, you know, what, what I like to say is I, I put enough good dirt on my bad dirt, so I didn't look dirty. Cause I couldn't change. I didn't believe I could. But what I thought I could do is I, I could manage people's, you know, perception of me. And if I did enough good, it would outweigh the bad that was impossible for me to run from. And I spent about two years doing that.

• 1:44:38Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, when you were, before you left the industry, I mean, was it a buildup of misery or was it literally that one scene? Or that one shoot? Or was that one shoot the last straw?

• 1:44:52Speaker 02

  The, that one shoot, that, that last shoot was the last straw, but it was, you know, the relationship. So that relationship got more toxic. It went from us being at dinner where we had sex with the other person across the, you know, table to her wanting to talk about stuff that was happening on the set, like, you know, in our home. And I was, it was interesting because I was like, man, I need to man up. It shouldn't bother me, but it does. And I, I think, you know, we look at men in today's society, it's like, you know,

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  we're struggling with a mental health crisis because we pretend like we're okay when we're not. And the inevitable fact of pretending like you're okay when you're not, the thing that's not okay is not going to get better, it's going to get worse. So.

• 1:45:52Speaker 02

  I allowed that to be part of

• 1:45:57Speaker 02

  our relationship, or her to tell me stuff that she was doing with other people and pretending like that was arousing to me. And I think, again, just like further and further compromising like myself as an individual and suppressing reality led to

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  combustion, you know, internally.

• 1:46:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you're trying to convince yourself to change what you know is right and wrong.

• 1:46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, a- again, like the the jealous kid, you know, in the grocery store is still the jealous kid that I I don't want anyone to look at my girlfriend. Now I'm saying that I'm okay with people having sex with her.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  But yeah. So I mean, that that progression

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  and just the reality of like me having sex with as many people as I did and it just becoming the most arbitrary thing in the world is incredibly dangerous for your mental and emotional health. For me to walk into, you know, a li- you know, this studio and a girl to be sitting there and for me not to talk to her or anything and I just walk up to her and start having sex with her. And then there's a bunch of cameras around and I'm doing it for these cameras and then I orgasm and then leave. And that's my job. That's what I do for my career. That's what I do, you know,

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  four or five days a week and I do that for, you know, short of a decade. Like that's, I mean, that's going to damage you significantly.

• 1:48:06Shawn Ryan?

  Was there any talk within the industry on your way out about or just any time at all in there?

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  When, when I

• 1:48:13Shawn Ryan?

  That other people were struggling with or?

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean, there was, there was, yeah. I mean, suicide is rampant in the suicide and over like people are dying of overdose. Probably five, I think, um, last time I looked around 500 people have died of overdose, suicide and murder. Over the last 20, 25 years and murder, because if you believe little of your, you know, if you believe little yourself, you're going to end up in a relationship where that person thinks little of you and there's abuse and that abuse turns into, you know, you losing your life and like the amount that happening, it's documented is pretty astronomical.

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  Um, and then just, I mean, you know, we were talking about, not to change the topic, but, um, we were talking about guardian angels. It's like, man, um, there was HIV outbreaks, like in the industry, you know, there, like there were people I had unprotected sex with that had HIV that they died.

• 1:49:18Speaker 02

  There were, there was an HIV outbreak that was big enough near in the industry that it shut down for, you know, not, not a long time, but around two months.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:49:34Shawn Ryan?

  Were there ever any open discussions about it? I mean, did, did you have any, any friends in the industry where you would have these like talks with about leaving or about things that were affecting you or anything like that?

• 1:49:48Speaker 02

  Um,

• 1:49:49Shawn Ryan?

  Or was everybody wearing a mask?

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I call it a first date mask, you know, um, where you don't know who you are, but you pretend to be whoever you think the person across from you wants you to be so that you can, you know,

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  appease them, um, or so that they will like you because you don't really know who you are or you believe who you are doesn't have any value. Um, but I'll say there's this like, there's this generally across the board, there was this belief that, you know, doing something outside of the industry, the longer that you stayed in the industry was impossible.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  So the, the only like, the best possible outcome is that you have a good longstanding career in the industry and then one of the studios that you worked for a lot, you get hired on as a director and then you work as a director. You know, that, that was the, the next hopeful progression because not being in the porn industry wasn't an option because being in the porn industry meant you couldn't do anything else. At least that's what I wanted you to believe.

• 1:51:09Speaker 02

  I mean, um, for example, Cagney Lynn Carter, um, she was a, a great friend of mine. She got in a little bit after me, stayed in much longer than me, um, much later than, than me. And, um, I think it was last year, she had left the industry, opened a dance studio. Um, she was like a ballet dancer, like in her teens, something she, she still was passionate about and she opened up a place. But everyone around her was like, you can do whatever you want.

• 1:51:52Speaker 02

  You can say that your name is whatever, but I know who you are. You'll, you'll never escape from, from that. You'll always be that person. And she tried really hard and it's so sad, bro, because, um, she, she took her life. And the day that she took her life, she posted a photo of herself on the beach saying, I'm free. But what, but what's true is, is she was in prison.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  Like you, like, I wanted to leave the industry. I wanted to do something else. But you begin to believe that you can't.

• 1:52:51Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:52:51Speaker 02

  And it's not something you do.

• 1:52:56Speaker 02

  It's who you are.

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  And if the only thing in which you can do is to sell yourself for sex, then your no loses its volition.

• 1:53:09Speaker 02

  You know, it, it, it loses its validity. Your no loses its validity. Because if the only thing that you can say yes to is selling yourself for sex, then you can't say no to anything. So you say yes to everything.

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  And it's just so sad, man.

• 1:53:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  I mean, just to think it, you know, I, I was sharing with someone. You know, there's, you know, forty, forty of my friends. Suicide overdose.

• 1:53:47Speaker 02

  Those porns are still there.

• 1:53:51Speaker 02

  You know? It's like, man, if I could encourage someone that's watching that now, it's like, man. You know, that, there's this like, there's all these things that are true while you don't know if there was forced fraud or coercion, you know, regarding

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  the scene that you're watching. You don't know how old that person is. Like, you don't know if they gave consent. And you, and then in, in this situation, what I'm saying is, you don't know if the thing in which they did caused them so much pain and hurt that it led to their death. And you're partaking in the thing in which caused their demise. And you're, and you're extracting pleasure from it.

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  And that person is dead because of what they did. And it's, and they're, they're still making money off of it.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  I mean, it's crazy.

• 1:54:47Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:54:47Speaker 02

  I mean, past, you know, you know, uh, you're right, right before November 4th. Last big push from the Harris Walz campaigned, they ran ads on Pornhub in seven different states. Why? A hundred and twenty million viewers a day. They, they ran a, uh, an ad saying, it was, it was someone that, you know, a character that somewhat resembled Trump, walking in and, and this, it was so gross, it was so gross. There was this guy masturbating underneath a blanket. And he was looking at his phone and someone that looks like Trump comes in and takes the phone away.

• 1:55:28Speaker 02

  And says, if you don't want to lose your right to watch porn, you better vote in the same way that you want, you know, to consume that.

• 1:55:39Shawn Ryan?

  Are you shitting me?

• 1:55:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  Seven states ran those ads.

• 1:55:46Shawn Ryan?

  What states?

• 1:55:48Speaker 02

  I'm not sure.

• 1:55:50Shawn Ryan?

  Geez.

• 1:55:51Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I would assume very left states. But we're about to get to a point in the story that's pretty cool.

• 1:55:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:04Shawn Ryan?

  Man. They really trap you.

• 1:56:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:11Shawn Ryan?

  Had you known anybody that had made it out?

• 1:56:14Speaker 02

  I know one girl. I don't know one guy. Um, well, I know guys that have made it out. I don't know how guys who are whole and healthy. For example, a, a good friend of mine, his name's Greg, um, his porn name is Randy Spears. Um, he, he even had, you know, a character on Family Guy. And, um, he, uh, he lives in San Antonio and, um, he still goes by Randy Spears.

• 1:56:46Speaker 02

  You know, he's got a normal job.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  You know, not in the point of the street anymore. Uh, he's about, you know, ten years older than me. Um. But, you know, I talked to him and it's like, you know, he called me Rocco. Like when he called, I, I called him and left him a voice memo or a voice message because he didn't answer. And, uh, me, when he called me back, he called me Rocco and he said that, you know, he was Randy. And he sent me his social, he like text me his social media and Randy Spears. Um, and, and I think it's this belief that who I am can never supersede that persona.

• 1:57:32Speaker 02

  So I'm, I'm going to cling on to that because my worth is so much less than this. Um.

• 1:57:44Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I know one, one person named Brittany, she lives in, uh, Santa Barbara with her husband, Richard. Um, they're actually both in ministry. They do, uh, they actually help girls that, um, are in trafficking or like prostitution, they kind of help them get back on their feet. Uh, but yeah, like she's the only person that I know.

• 1:58:09Shawn Ryan?

  Are any of them reaching out to you? Anybody like, like, like, how do we get out of this?

• 1:58:15Speaker 02

  Tons, every day.

• 1:58:19Speaker 02

  And it's like, and it, it, you know, some people are very frustrated with me. Cause I, I mean, there's still people who are in the industry that are very successful. That either I, you know, I mentored or were good friends to me because, you know, a lot of the guys who were younger, uh, when I was in the industry, you know, they were like, you know, how do I do this? How do I do this right? How do I make a career out of this? You know, how do I, you know, because the thing that I was best at was, well, I understood, well, if you get relational equity with a director, then he's going to hire you often. He's going to recommend you, you know, to other people. I understood networking, I understood relationships. And it's like, I wasn't,

• 1:59:01Speaker 02

  I was a good actor, you know, but I cared about people and I remembered people's names and, you know, so like simple stuff was the things that allowed me to be very successful in that industry. And I was just, you know, teaching them simple things that worked well for them. But I've had conversations as of recently, you know, as, as recent as a month ago, of people who are very, very successful in the industry today that have been in the industry, you know, now, you know, approaching fifteen, twenty years, saying, man, I thought we were friends. And I was like, what do you mean by that? He's like, you say all this stuff about the industry.

• 1:59:42Speaker 02

  I'm like, yeah, man, I detest the industry with every fiber of my being. And I think it's vile and evil, but I love you.

• 1:59:58Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't have to agree with what you're doing. I, I mean, I understand you found, you, you find identity in that. So I understand why that feels offensive to you, but I, I don't have any animosity towards you. I wish you would do something different with your life. Because the reality is, bro, if you are, uh, girls also, if you're into the top three to five percent of any industry, you have the capacity of being excellent at another trade and being more successful. Like you have charisma and gifts and talents that you're

• 2:00:40Speaker 02

  misappropriating, but if you surrender and you submit to your, to your life, to the person of Jesus Christ, and allow him to take the things that he put in you and point them in the right direction, guess what? You're going to ten X your success. And it's going to be something that you're doing that is fulfilling, because it's going to be the thing that you're made to do.

• 2:01:04Speaker 02

  So yeah, I, I, I don't hate you. I hate the choices that you're making, but I don't, I don't hate you. And they, they just don't get it. So there, there, there, there has, there has been a lot of like situations that I, I wish that I could have had the conversation in person.

• 2:01:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:30Shawn Ryan?

  So you leave the industry, become a CrossFit trainer.

• 2:01:37Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how many people are coming up to you that recognize you?

• 2:01:42Speaker 02

  So day one, I'm, I'm living now in Raleigh, North Carolina. And first thing I do, I'm like, you know what? I've got a Celtic cross tattoo on my shoulder that it for some reason in my mind, like, I'm not walking around with my shirt off, but I'm like, I know that is on a hundred, you know, covers of porn, you know?

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  I'm going to get that covered up. So I get it covered up. I got like a, I got a fish like coming out of water and like, ah, you know, freaking cool, you know? Um, but I got that covered up and shaved my head, deleted my social media. It's like

• 2:02:25Speaker 02

  Rock or Reed, gone, dead.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  New life. Walking to Whole Foods, like literally, I haven't even moved into my place yet. And a guy in the meat section is like, Rock or Reed? I was like,

• 2:02:47Speaker 02

  are you kidding me?

• 2:02:52Speaker 02

  And then it just continued to happen over and over again.

• 2:02:56Speaker 02

  And then I'm just kind of like, I was kind of found, you know, I was, I was found, I was found out. Um, but I just kind of, you know, deflect from it. And I was just trying to build like, I'm a trainer, I'm a trainer, I'm a trainer, I'm a good trainer, I'm a good trainer. I got a lot of personal training clients, you know, making money, I'm doing good, I'm helping people, I'm doing good. And, uh, two years of that. And, uh, two years in, this girl comes into the gym. She's wearing like all Iowa Hawkeye cheerleading stuff. So she had obviously, you know, was an alum, was very proud that she had cheered at Iowa.

• 2:03:39Speaker 02

  Gorgeous, best athlete in the gym, but she was different in that she worked really hard. She would kick everybody's butt in the workout. She was a gymnast, so she could, you know, all this like old school crossfit. Like if you could walk with your hands and like do stuff like that, like if you were good at that, like you already had a, you know, uh, an edge over everybody else.

• 2:04:01Speaker 02

  But she was just better than everybody and I was just fascinated about, you know, with her and she was gorgeous. So I asked her on a date and she was like, I'm good.

• 2:04:13Speaker 02

  With love, you know, rejection, you know.

• 2:04:18Speaker 02

  So I asked her out a bunch of times and she was finally like, well, I go, I'll go, uh, for a long run. Before church on Sunday mornings, if you want to meet me at this park, we can go for a run. And I was like, all right, you know, I'll take whatever I can get. And I get there and I'm there early and I'm waiting. And I started thinking, I'm like, man. You know, Christmas party and like a few other parties we have, like.

• 2:04:51Speaker 02

  She didn't really hang out that much.

• 2:04:54Speaker 02

  She's always at the gym, but after the workout, if she's not like doing extra work or whatever, um, like she's not hanging out mingling, like she's not like.

• 2:05:06Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh. She's not looking for fronts.

• 2:05:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so AKA, she doesn't know my story.

• 2:05:12Shawn Ryan?

  She doesn't.

• 2:05:13Speaker 02

  No. And I'm like, man, if she knew who I was,

• 2:05:19Speaker 02

  she would not, you know, agree to this. And, and there was just like some conviction that I had. I'm like, man, I need to, I need to be forthcoming with this, not something I had done, you know, in the past. And when she got there, like the, the run never made its way to a run, or you know, it was a maybe a brisk walk. And I was like, hey, that's what I, I want to share something with you. It's gonna, you know, be a little heavy. She was like, okay, but you know, what's up? And I was like, you know, kind of like laid out my guts, you know, I was like, man, I'm the kid that his daddy didn't want and I'm, and I did all this porn and it's still all over the, the internet and like every bad thing I've ever done that creates shame in my life. You know, it's on the internet forever. And this is who I am.

• 2:06:05Speaker 02

  And she was just like, holy crap, you know, like super taken back. And she didn't say anything. We just continued to walk. You know, she didn't say a word and I didn't know if she was mad or she was gonna slap me or, you know, I don't know, I was gonna, am I gonna get fired? You know, I, I was just thinking like all these. Then she stopped and she looked at me like, you know, she's an elementary teacher. There's like, there, there's the, you know, a look that like a mom or a teacher has, and she just looked at me with this like,

• 2:06:40Speaker 02

  she's like, hey, um, I don't wanna minimize the pain that you've experienced in your life. And I don't want to negate the, the real problems that your decisions have made for you. But I want you to know that you're not defined by the worst thing you've ever done.

• 2:07:07Speaker 02

  And you won't be defined by the greatest thing you ever do.

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  Because there's one author of you. And it's not you.

• 2:07:23Speaker 02

  It's God. Do you know who that is? Do you know God? And I was like.

• 2:07:30Speaker 02

  Maybe. I went to church a little bit when I was a kid because my grandmother, my grandfather, they went to church. They had a faith.

• 2:07:44Speaker 02

  I was like, I know of God. I certainly don't know God. And she was like, well, I've been following Jesus since I was in the seventh grade. And I'm not perfect by any means, but my foundation that I live from is from my relationship with him. Like, the way I live my life is contingent on my relationship with him.

• 2:08:12Speaker 02

  So what kind of food do you like? I was like, what? Are you like an alien or something like, what? Like, what are you talking about? Like, you don't want me to leave? Like, she's asking me about SMART goals. I'm like, dude, I don't know what an acronym is. Like, what are you talking about? Like, I, like, I had the worst of intentions with you. Like, I, my plan A, B, and C is to hook up with you, you know? I, I don't, I have no idea, you know?

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  And then we just walked and talked and she asked me questions that I didn't think of for a long time. You know, like, what, what do I want to like, in, in the gym industry? Would you ever want to own a gym?

• 2:09:05Speaker 02

  You know, what's your relationship like with your family? Like, do you, like, would you ever want to have kids? You're just asking me things that like, I.

• 2:09:16Speaker 02

  Like honestly, like, I feel like it had been so long of like me thinking like that. I was like reaching for humanity. I didn't know if I still had. That went on for, you know, we, we walked and talked for like probably two hours. And then, you know, she, you know, we, we went separate ways and, you know, text like high school idiots for a week. And then on Saturday, she was like, "Hey, um, I would love for you to come with me to church." And I was like, "Wherever you're going, yes, you know, I'll, I'll be there. Wherever the pretty girl's going, yes."

• 2:09:59Speaker 02

  And, um, she had, like, she had been catalytic for, like, some curiosity. I'm like, "What in you allowed you to respond to me like that?"

• 2:10:15Speaker 02

  You know, like, um, there's this really great book I, I love, uh, Master Plan of Evangelism. Uh, Robert E. Coleman wrote it and he talks about how, um, it's good to tell people, you know, something, but it's better to show that, like, people are often not looking for an explanation. They're looking for a demonstration. And I think, you know, Colossians four, like Paul's talking about, hey, um, you know, "I'm in prison for preaching the gospel, but I'm praying for opportunities to preach the gospel, and I'm praying to do it with clarity, and I'm praying to do it with tact. You know, I want to be wise towards, um, outsiders.

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  And most importantly, man, allow my speech to be gracious and seasoned with salt, so I might know how I ought to answer each person. Because how I respond matters.

• 2:11:13Speaker 02

  How I respond to the individual in front of me, not a blanket statement, the person in front of me, how I am aware, how I'm an intentional,

• 2:11:24Speaker 02

  how I react is important.

• 2:11:28Speaker 02

  And the way that she reacted to me, like,

• 2:11:33Speaker 02

  it,

• 2:11:35Speaker 02

  it was like, wow, dude. And um, she invited me to church. And um, we went there and I thought, you know, am I gonna like, set, you know, into,

• 2:11:49Speaker 02

  am I gonna catch on fire when I walk in, you know, like, um, I certainly have no business here, is what I was thinking. And then, you know, my, my only, like,

• 2:12:00Shawn Ryan?

  I think a lot of people can relate to that.

• 2:12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I thought, you know,

• 2:12:04Shawn Ryan?

  I thought the same thing when I walked in.

• 2:12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:06Shawn Ryan?

  Totally different reasons. Maybe not so different, but, I get it.

• 2:12:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I thought, you know, if you had, you know, tattoos on your arm and wrinkles on your shirt, like you're going to hell. You know, that's what, that's what I thought. And then I saw a, a man with tattoos and, you know, a t-shirt and jeans, like, get up on stage, um, preaching.

• 2:12:34Speaker 02

  And he's told, he told the story of uh, Second Samuel, chapter nine, and um, just to provide a little bit of context, so um, Second Samuel, chapter nine, it's King David. David had just rebuilt the camp, the temple. And now he's, you know, kinda at the pinnacle of his reign as king. And he just rebuilt the temple and he had done something for God. And then he was asking himself introspectively, Lord, what can I do for your people to show your loving kindness to me? How can I reciprocate the love that I've experienced from you, like, to your people?

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  And then he's like, oh yeah, um, I made this promise to my friend Jonathan. So Jonathan was the son of Saul. Saul, his kingdom was stripped from him when he sinned, and then David was chosen and anointed to be king. And then there was this conflict between Saul and David. And Saul had a son, Jonathan, and Jonathan and David were great friends. And Jonathan even was like, hey, um, I know my dad's like trying to like throw spears at you and like trying to kill you and like he's, you know, kinda lost it. If he's plotting on you, I'm gonna have your back, I'm gonna let you know. And then David said, hey, I'm gonna make this covenant a promise with you

• 2:13:55Speaker 02

  that I'm gonna show you love and affection, not only to you forever, but to your family as well. Now, fast forward, he's remembering this, and he's saying, man, um, how can I show this to, you know, God's people? And he's, oh, I wonder if there's anyone left out of the house of Saul? And he finds a guard, um, Zeba is the guard's name, and he served under Saul, and he's like, hey, is there anyone left? And he's like, yeah, Mufabelsheth. Mufabelsheth was the son of Jonathan, but he's in this place called Lotovar. It means place of no pasture, he's in hiding, because, um, he was, you know, when, when he was

• 2:14:38Speaker 02

  around like five or six years old, when his, uh, his dad and his grandfather, when Jonathan and Saul were killing battle, you know, there was this hierarchy where he was next in line to be king, but David was chosen and anointed to be king. So if David had his right place of the throne, historically, if there was an opposing person, that could potentially cause an upheaval, they were identified and eradicated. You know, that, that was the plan. So he was in hiding because he thought his head was on the chopping block. David goes, finds him, brings him in front of him, and Mufabelsheth is like, you know, doomsday, today's the day, I'm gonna die, I've been found.

• 2:15:23Speaker 02

  And, um, David says, actually, I'm going to give to you, I'm gonna restore back to you your grandfather's land, which is part of Canaan, so the promised land. I'm gonna give you access back to your land, and I'm gonna invite you into my kingdom, and I want you to have a seat at my table, not for a day, not for a week, but forever. You are now part of this family. And, uh, I was like, wow, this is amazing. It's a, it's a beautiful picture of grace. But 2 Samuel chapter nine, verse eight, Mufabelsheth, how does he respond to this? Does he's like, wow, you know, God is so good, wow, this is amazing? No.

• 2:16:04Speaker 02

  He refers to himself as a dead dog. Says, "What would you want to do with a dead dog like me?" And I was like, "Yeah." That's it. Because before, he was talking about, man, you know, Romans 3:23 says that we've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, so everybody's guilty. Romans 6:23, you know, the wages of sin is death. So if we're all guilty, and that guilt equates to death, eternal separation from God, if that's true for everyone, then okay, I'm on the same playing field. But then you're talking about, you know, this grace of God. You know, I'm like, okay, you know, Romans 10:9, whoever confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe that he was raised on the third day will be saved.

• 2:16:48Speaker 02

  I'm like, this is amazing. But then I still find myself, "Don't you know who I am? Don't you know what I've done? Don't you know who my daddy is? Don't you know even he didn't want me?" And then he read Hebrews 12:2. It talks about how Jesus went to the cross with joy in his heart set before him, scorning our shame, before he sat down at the right hand of God. And I'm like, joy?

• 2:17:27Speaker 02

  You're talking about that, okay, Jesus was fully God, fully man, so fully perfect. He's omniscient, he's all-knowing. So an all-powerful, all-knowing God went to the cross. Okay, he was obedient to his Father, so that makes sense. But why would he have joy in his heart? And then it hit me. Because he loves me.

• 2:18:09Speaker 02

  Because he loves me.

• 2:18:13Speaker 02

  God loves me.

• 2:18:16Speaker 02

  And I just kept saying it to myself over and over and over again.

• 2:18:23Speaker 02

  And I fell to my knees and I started to cry.

• 2:18:33Speaker 02

  I'm not sure what happened that day, but when I stood up, you know, I gave my life to Jesus the best I knew how. And what I felt when I stood up was the ruck was off my back.

• 2:18:55Speaker 02

  And I understood that the Father that I always wanted, he gave me pictures of shielding me and protecting me and walking with me and fighting for me and believing the best about me.

• 2:19:14Speaker 02

  That's why Romans 5:8 is so powerful.

• 2:19:18Speaker 02

  Like while knowing the worst thing you've ever done, Jesus went to the cross and died for you. Like he would, like you, it talks about how, you know, you wouldn't do that, you know, for a bad person, maybe for a righteous person, but, but not someone that had done the things, you know, that we did that put him on the cross, like no way. Yeah, while knowing the worst thing you've ever done, the thing that you would not want to say out loud, he knows that and he chooses you. Why? Because he loves you.

• 2:19:57Speaker 02

  And that love, it changed me that day. It didn't fix all my problems. I was still, you know, very much a knucklehead.

• 2:20:08Speaker 02

  But man, if there was something that I was sure of was that God loved me.

• 2:20:15Speaker 02

  And I wanted to be different. And the thing that I didn't think was possible

• 2:20:24Speaker 02

  just came true is that I had a father

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  who adored me. And that girl, her name is Hope, which is pretty cool. And, you know, I'm not the smartest person in the world, but married her. And we've been married for nine years. And got four boys. And I've just seen so much beauty come from the ashes of my life. And, you know, from, you know, that moment of being discipled going to Liberty and getting a theological education to preaching at Liberty at Convocation

• 2:21:09Speaker 02

  last month and doing, you know, having conversations with incredible people like yourself. Like, I didn't have the guts.

• 2:21:19Shawn Ryan?

  How did you immediately start implementing this stuff into your life?

• 2:21:25Shawn Ryan?

  After that hour at church?

• 2:21:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for me, it's like, you know, so thinking about like, like fighting, like, I wasn't the best fighter, but I was a good counterpuncher, you know? Basketball, I was, I was quick, but I wasn't fast. So I was a shooter, so I had to, I could, I could create separation so I could get my shot off. All these things were technique driven, but I understood that it would yield results. So I believed, man, if I take inventory of the things in my life that don't line up with where I want to go, and I implement a regiment of things that

• 2:22:12Speaker 02

  will set me on the trajectory for me to go, then it'll work. Okay, so where do I start? Need a mentor. So first thing I did is is so crazy. I I go to this church. It was a pretty big church in Raleigh. And I was like, there's a pastor I can talk to. Like, sure, you know, executive pastor was, you know, around the corner, just happened to be in there. His name's Gary Vett. And I walked in there and I was like, can I tell you a story? Because I feel like God wants me to build a boat.

• 2:22:47Speaker 02

  But I share with him my story. And I was like, man, I I feel like I need to build a foundation, because I think there's people that God's gonna use my story to rescue to point to himself. And that's the boat that I feel like I need to build. What am I supposed to do? He's like, wow, you know. And then he grabs this guy Andrew. And Andrew just graduated from DTS, Dallas Theological Seminary, moved to Raleigh to help open another campus. And discipleship was something that he was passionate about and gifted in, like, very gifted teacher.

• 2:23:28Speaker 02

  And, you know, if if I, you know, it's funny, I used to tell a story, it was like, man, he was a new guy on staff, he had all this free time, you know, knowing what I know now in ministry, the new guy on staff does not have free time, you know, you're doing all the stuff. But he's like, I didn't have time. And honestly, you know, my plan was to give you a Bible, tell you, you know, what to read, and tell you to get plugged into a small group.

• 2:23:59Speaker 02

  And he was like, man, just the Holy Spirit just fell on me and convicted me. Like, when you walked in my office, and I was like, man, I've got to. Pour out every bit of me into him. And I don't know why. And, you know, he, he didn't know what he was getting himself into. He's like, man, I just want you to open up my office to you. You know, I want to spend as much time discipling you as, as you want to spend. So I was like, okay. You know, I've got a little, little bit of a crazy work ethic where I was like, all right. So I was like, doing everything I could to like, I was like giving away personal training clients.

• 2:24:42Speaker 02

  And I was showing up at his office and I was spending 10 to 15 hours a week with Andrew. And, you know, we started in the book of John where the book of John, you know, anyone asked me, what's the first book of the Bible I need to read? The book of John, book of John is an eyewitness account of the life of Jesus, you know? Jee- John walked with Jesus and John wants you to know, hey, this is who Jesus is. This is what Jesus did. And this is how it matters to all that believe. And, you know, and it's like John specifically is written to not specifically like a Greek audience, not specifically a Jewish audience. It's an overarching audience, so it uses language that's not confusing. It's very clear.

• 2:25:28Speaker 02

  So we, we dug into that and it like, I wasn't like a scholarly dude, but like I could read and like regurgitate stuff. But it wouldn't always like conceptualize. There was, I mean, it's, it's true that the, you know, the Bible says that the Bible is, you know, the word of God is alive and active, sharper than, you know, to any two edged sword divides bone and marrow. Where if, if you are allowing the Holy Spirit to, to lead you, I think it's important that we pray before we read our Bible. Man, I was reading this text and it was like, it wasn't just words on a page. It was like, it was coming into my heart and undoing things.

• 2:26:15Speaker 02

  And it was like, I was like, receiving, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, I think it's appropriate that we talk about, you know, Jesus is the bread of life, you know, it's the water that'll never leave you thirsty, because once you experience like true sustenance, like if you've ever been starving, and then you find sustenance, like you're satisfied in a way that is almost like, you can't fully articulate, it was that, and I experienced a peace that came with that, that I became very hungry for, and I couldn't get enough. And for me, you know, it used to be,

• 2:26:57Speaker 02

  man, if you come to my house, you know, or my grandma's house, her buttermilk biscuits are ridiculous, and, you know, she's such a great grandma, that, you know, I, I get out of school, you know, at three thirty-seven, she's taking them out of the oven at three forty, you know, they're hitting, you know, a plate, and you can bite them, they're still crispy on the top, and they're, you know, soft in the middle, you see times it perfect, you gotta try this. The, the gospel became that for me, it was like, man, uh, this really works, this really is changing my life, and it's beautiful, and interesting, and captivating, and, um, it's the best story

• 2:27:38Speaker 02

  ever told, and that story, it's about a God that is personal and wants to get to know you, and man, I can't wait to tell you about him. And that just became all I ever wanted to do, and that's, you know, a hundred, if I'm honest, like, I, I get to do some really cool stuff, but at the end of the day, like, that's the thing that fires me up most. So it started there, um, but I think, like, if you're to teach anyone anything, you know, I'm talking about Victor, you know, like, uh, Victor's gonna show, uh, show me how to do something with a knife. And then he was gonna give me the knife and then I need to show him what he showed me. Uh, because, because if I can't replicate what you just taught me, I didn't catch it, you know?

• 2:28:22Speaker 02

  Um, and you have to apply it to truly learn it. And I think when, when we reciprocate our, our faith in that we, we share things that God has, you know, implanted on us to others, there's something that's solidified. You think there's, you know, there's something beautiful that happens when there's a, a, a physical and practical response to something that's prompted in us spiritually. And that's just, has been natural for me.

• 2:28:53Shawn Ryan?

  How long did it take you to learn forgiveness?

• 2:28:58Speaker 02

  A lo- a lot longer, a lot longer. Um, I think the, the first, the, the first step of that was, um, when our first son was born. Um, I remember like, I remember, I'm like, my wife is like a germaphobe and she's always like, you know, have you washed your hands? Have you washed your hands? Like, our kids, like, any, like, we will, like, be somewhere and wash our hands and get in our car. And if we pick up, like, takeout, you know, and we're gonna eat it on the way home and they're in the back, like, watching a movie or whatever, they know, like, you gotta get the hand sanitizer also, you know?

• 2:29:41Speaker 02

  But, so when our son's born, you know, I'm like, she's already instilled the fear in me. But by that point, I'm like, are my hands clean enough? You know, to touch our, our son, you know? Uh, because he, the nurses had him and, you know, he's all like slimy and cold-headed and got the little bonnet like hanging off his head. And, um, I'm freaked out 'cause like, so she was in the middle of a CrossFit workout when her water broke. And like she, like, we went home, we'd, like, we had just bought our first house, um, been married for about two years and, um,

• 2:30:16Speaker 02

  Just like, she was like, I'm gonna just do my makeup and then we'll go to the hospital. Like, your water broke, you know, I'm like freaking out. I thought I needed to have like, you know. But we get there and her, her water broke, but she wasn't dilated enough. And then almost twenty-four hours later, he's born. So I'm like, crackhead by that point. And um, he's born. I'm like emotional and hungry and tired and all the things. And um, the nurse has him and he's looking, you know, all alien-like. And uh, she's like, do you wanna touch him? You wanna see him? And I walk over him like, you know.

• 2:30:57Speaker 02

  And as I'm reaching in his direction, his little hand reaches up and grabs my finger. And I started weeping.

• 2:31:09Speaker 02

  And like, not audibly, but you know, in my spirit, I heard God say, I love you more than that.

• 2:31:22Speaker 02

  And I said, man, I, I don't deserve that. I don't deserve to be a dad.

• 2:31:30Speaker 02

  I don't know how to be a dad. Scared.

• 2:31:36Speaker 02

  I don't know how to do it right. I've never seen it done.

• 2:31:42Speaker 02

  I'm a, you know, I'm a screw up. You know, I, I, I started just thinking all these things.

• 2:31:49Speaker 02

  I was thinking, man, I was, I was thirty, you know, um, thirty-three at that time. And I was like, man, my dad was sixteen.

• 2:32:02Speaker 02

  And I think like that moment, it, it was the beginning of me feeling some empathy for him. And um,

• 2:32:15Speaker 02

  Some time passed and um

• 2:32:20Speaker 02

  God started opening up some cool opportunities. Um, I was on staff at Life Church for a while as an associate pastor and then took a teaching position in Iowa. Um, and then kind of thing after thing started happening. You know, I did Tucker and Candace Owens and you know, a few other things and started getting a lot of momentum, a lot of opportunities and God was just moving. And um, kind of in the middle of that, I was in Dallas, actually before we lived there and I was staying in the Omni and um, I'd woke like, I'd woken up around

• 2:33:01Speaker 02

  like 2am and it's often, not super often, but often that God will like wake me up and I felt prompted to pray in the middle of night. And um,

• 2:33:14Speaker 02

  I was lazy. So I was just like, I'm just gonna lay here.

• 2:33:21Speaker 02

  And I began to think like, hey, what am I doing? And I just felt like super distracted. And then I started to think, it's almost like the Holy Spirit kind of brought to the forefront of my mind, like, do you fear me?

• 2:33:40Speaker 02

  Like, do you revere me? Like, the fear of the Lord rightly understood is reverence, not, you know, human fear. Like, do you revere me as Lord?

• 2:33:55Speaker 02

  Get on my face and um, begin to pray. And then I started to see, almost like if you would like go through a flip book, my dad,

• 2:34:16Speaker 02

  The way that I would look out that glass, like looking for my dad,

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  is my dad is a kid looking for me.

• 2:34:27Speaker 02

  And um, how it just got harder over time.

• 2:34:35Speaker 02

  And

• 2:34:38Speaker 02

  while I was feeling empathy, I was also feeling this like bubble of rage at the same time. You know, these like two conflicting emotions. And I was just like, man, because I've like screamed into my pillow before, like when, you know, especially was like the day that we found out we were pregnant for the first time, someone hacked my wife's Facebook and sent every single person, like family, friends, like grandma, like my pornography.

• 2:35:10Speaker 02

  It's like we announced, we're pregnant.

• 2:35:13Speaker 02

  Five minutes later. Damn. So like in moments like that,

• 2:35:19Speaker 02

  I was like, I don't know why, like, obviously, I'm like, man, I'd love to, you know, grab that IT, you know, the IP address and go like curb kick that person. But also, like something in me, like, it was almost like the first thing I would think was like, man,

• 2:35:37Speaker 02

  Dad, if you would have been there, this stuff would have happened. I wouldn't be experiencing that.

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  It's your fault. And it would go from like, it's your fault to like, Dad, it's your fault.

• 2:35:49Speaker 02

  Why couldn't you just be there? You were down the street. Like, why do you hate me?

• 2:36:03Speaker 02

  And then just my heart broke and I was just like, I have to forgive him.

• 2:36:10Speaker 02

  I don't know what that looks like, but I have to figure out a way. And then I tell my wife, my wife be my wife. She like some, she like messages.

• 2:36:20Speaker 02

  He's got, you know, I have a half brother and sister that I don't know very well, but she reaches out to Justin. And then she gets his number and then I end up with his number and she was like, you know, very quickly, she's like, here you go.

• 2:36:36Speaker 02

  Do what you need to do.

• 2:36:41Speaker 02

  I called him and um we had that phone call and it was like, man, um like

• 2:36:52Speaker 02

  when I, when I had that conversation with him, like it would, it didn't go exactly like I thought it would. But a million pounds came off of me. Um but what's really wild is in between that dream and that phone call. The weekend I had with Victor Marks. It was um nuts. Um, so we know Victor and it was, uh, well, it was, I think maybe it was like the third or fourth time I'd hung out with him. And uh, we were filming

• 2:37:34Speaker 02

  a uh, a spiritual warfare documentary. Um, and uh, he'd interviewed me for that and he's got, you know, this, this prayer, you know, this retooling prayer where you identify like, is there any, you know, demonic oppression on you, calls them out.

• 2:37:55Shawn Ryan?

  We did it on here.

• 2:37:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:57Speaker 02

  Um, but he, he did that with me and I was just like, you know, it's like, um, you know, I, I would say I'm like Baptist coastal, you know, I'm like Baptist in my theology and Pentecostal in my expression. Um, but like the demonic, you know, what like wasn't super familiar with, you know? Um, definitely experienced a lot of evil, but regarding stuff like that, not, you know, not super in tune with and um

• 2:38:28Shawn Ryan?

  I think your whole life's been spiritual warfare, man.

• 2:38:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  Um, but

• 2:38:38Shawn Ryan?

  And I think of the demonic is sorry.

• 2:38:41Speaker 02

  No, no, please.

• 2:38:44Shawn Ryan?

  It's traps. It's these fucking traps.

• 2:38:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:49Shawn Ryan?

  It's vices, it's addiction, it's lust, sex. It's temptation, money.

• 2:38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:00Shawn Ryan?

  Jealousy, resentment, those are, I think that, I think how that, I think, I think about this shit all the time. I think that's how it works.

• 2:39:14Shawn Ryan?

  Different traps work for different people.

• 2:39:16Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 2:39:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yours was, I mean, it doesn't sound like yours was even really lust. It was more fame and money.

• 2:39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and affirmation.

• 2:39:28Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, and your whole life has been acceptance. Where can I get accepted? First one that came along, or at least the first one you noticed.

• 2:39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:39Shawn Ryan?

  You know, was, so there was three traps, acceptance, fame, money.

• 2:39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:39:50Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and so I think it's, if you, if you display what you really, I don't know how to say this. If you, if you display what you're really craving or want, whether it's, you know, sex,

• 2:40:06Shawn Ryan?

  power, fame, money.

• 2:40:13Shawn Ryan?

  Those things will come.

• 2:40:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:16Shawn Ryan?

  They might not be good.

• 2:40:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, I would say.

• 2:40:20Shawn Ryan?

  It's easy to fall into this shit.

• 2:40:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:40:22Shawn Ryan?

  I see it all the time.

• 2:40:23Speaker 02

  I mean, you're, you're, I mean, I think you're really tapping into something important because the reality is that most people that struggle with porn, like porn is problematic in their life, but porn's not their problem. Like porn is the Band-Aid that they've covered, you know, the, the wound, the lack, the need with, and now that the porn has become problematic in their life. Where, you know, you, you started watching porn, um, because of what, whatever, um.

• 2:40:58Speaker 02

  But it's covering something that's so much deeper. That's why, you know, helping people stop watching it, it's not, you shouldn't do that. We do stuff that I ought not do all the time, you know? It's so much deeper than that. It's like, why? Why do I do what I do? In contrast of, why do I do, you know, stuff that I don't want to do? You know, Paul talks about that. Like, why do I have this desire to do things I ought not do? Why do I find myself doing these things?

• 2:41:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I mean.

• 2:41:41Shawn Ryan?

  It doesn't even necessarily appear like a trap. It doesn't look like a trap at the time.

• 2:41:46Speaker 02

  Well, that's a good trap there, right?

• 2:41:47Shawn Ryan?

  And then, and then you're in.

• 2:41:49Speaker 02

  Well, a good, you know, a good trap would have camouflage. I think, you know, that's why, you know, John 10:10 talks about the enemy wants to kill, steal and destroy. And, you know, he, you know, you're thinking about, you know, if he's going to put you in change, he's not going to show you the, the full picture of the chain that you will be in. He's just going to show you a link and like how that, that link's not a big deal. I love this, uh, this, this Dallas Willard quote. I believe it's Dallas Willard, but he just talks about how repentance seems easy at first. And then after you sin, it seems impossible.

• 2:42:29Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:42:32Speaker 02

  I mean, how like, there's a demonic assignment on each person. And, you know, I think the, I would say the, the biggest problem, especially like in like Protestant circles, is this, this negligence or this disbelief that evil can tangibly impact your life as a follower of Christ. Because are we without sin? No. And when we sin, what do we do? We, we, you know, essentially invite an opportunity for deception, you know? So.

• 2:43:15Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, I mean, I, I love, uh, the way that JP just like lays it out there. He spent two years just talking about man, uh, or digging into the fact that, you know, there's, that, that the devil, like, you're not interested, you know, that you're not interesting to the devil, um, per se, but he's got legions of demons that, you know, they know the, the wounds, you know, in your, in your family history. They know the things in which you have a proclivity like towards. He knows, you know, what kind of trap to set for you. He can't make you take the bait. They can make it seem enticing and even more so, um, once you take it,

• 2:44:01Speaker 02

  he can make you believe that it's not a big deal.

• 2:44:05Speaker 00

  Uh huh, uh huh.

• 2:44:10Speaker 02

  But yeah, man, back to, uh, to, to that moment with Victor, we're, we were doing that retooling prayer and I was like, I was pretty dismissive of it. And then, um, we did it. And then as soon as he started talking, um, it was like, I was a kid and I was in a room where it was, he took me, it took me to a moment that I had suppressed as a kid. I was seven and a half years old and I was, I heard my mom being hit by this guy that she was married to.

• 2:44:48Speaker 02

  And I, there was the, the dresser was pressed up against the door and I was pressing with my forearm against the door. And I got it open just enough where I could see through it and I saw him hitting her. And I was screaming at him and I felt so weak and so useless because I couldn't open that door. And then I cried until I fell asleep.

• 2:45:17Speaker 02

  And, um, I woke up

• 2:45:22Speaker 02

  and he was just like, what, what lie did the enemy tell you?

• 2:45:27Speaker 02

  It's like, uh, that I'm not good enough.

• 2:45:32Speaker 02

  It was just like.

• 2:45:38Speaker 02

  Man.

• 2:45:41Speaker 02

  And it was like, so how do you undo, you know? How do you undo something like that? It's like, how do you replace a lie? Well, you have to replace it with a truth. You know, Thomas Kepis talks about habit has to be replaced with habit. A lie has to be replaced with truth. So I'm like, man, um, how do I fix this? How do I undo this? How do I, you know? What do I do with this? What do I do with this like new, like unearthed trauma? You know, I've already like been to counseling for two years. You know, I've already, it was like something I didn't deal with. I never even thought of. I didn't even know it happened really.

• 2:46:26Speaker 02

  And the first thing I could think of was again, that dream when I was praying. You know, that moment when I was praying, it's like, man.

• 2:46:36Speaker 02

  The reason I don't believe that I'm enough, it came from another lie.

• 2:46:43Speaker 02

  That my dad wasn't there for me.

• 2:46:48Speaker 02

  Because I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to be his son.

• 2:46:55Speaker 02

  So I'm going to choose to forgive him in spite of an outcome. And I did. And I think the enemy like, like I, I, I thought in my head, like, man, God had orchestrated this incredible moment, you know, that I was gonna like, when I called him, there was gonna be like fireworks shooting off. And then we were gonna like, you know, grab some shotguns and go hunting or something. You know, like, um.

• 2:47:28Speaker 02

  But it was just not the case.

• 2:47:32Speaker 02

  And um, I was talking with a buddy of mine recently, uh, Matt Chandler. And um, he was telling me a story of like him and his dad like reconnecting like later in life. And uh, he was like, I was like, well, how did, you know, how did that happen? And he was like, man, just like randomly one day, I just got like this inkling to say, hey dad,

• 2:48:00Speaker 02

  I've got access to this cabin. I'm going out there for three days. Hunt, fish, do all the stuff you love to do. Why don't you come with me? It's all on me, all, it's all taken care of. Why don't you come hang out with me? And he did, and you know, ended up professing Jesus as Lord. Ended up having a great relationship, even moved closer to him. And I was just like,

• 2:48:31Speaker 02

  my dad like has a, you know, he, like my dad's like office like looks like this if it was like deer and boar and you know.

• 2:48:43Speaker 02

  And I was like, he'll be all over that. Send out a text, look at it.

• 2:48:51Speaker 02

  Show it to my wife. Hit send. Thirty seconds go by, I don't think it's gonna work.

• 2:49:02Speaker 02

  There was so much in me that wanted to like,

• 2:49:06Speaker 02

  take ten steps back, you know?

• 2:49:12Speaker 02

  It's like, man, like what?

• 2:49:17Speaker 02

  What do I have to do?

• 2:49:23Speaker 02

  But at the end of the day, it's like, man,

• 2:49:26Speaker 02

  I can't control his decisions. And I can't control like his response

• 2:49:34Speaker 02

  to dictate

• 2:49:36Speaker 02

  how I perceive reality and and and live my life. All I can do is be the best father I can be and the best husband I can be, be the best Christ follower I can be, be the best leader in the organization that I'm part of.

• 2:49:55Shawn Ryan?

  It's not you, it's him.

• 2:49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it sucked, you know, it sucked like I thought for sure like that was it.

• 2:50:07Speaker 02

  But I think a better way to think about it, you know, as I'm sitting here, it's like, maybe it was a seed, you know?

• 2:50:16Shawn Ryan?

  When was that?

• 2:50:18Speaker 02

  Three months ago.

• 2:50:21Shawn Ryan?

  It's a lot of pain.

• 2:50:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. It is wild. It's like, you know, I I spent a lot of time talking about porn and um but when I do men's events,

• 2:50:35Speaker 02

  like, I know ninety percent or more of the guys there have or are struggling with porn. The thing that I get to minister to people about is that

• 2:50:51Speaker 02

  there's some kind of father wound and there's there's levels of fatherlessness, you know, there's there's guys, you know, fathers that they weren't there at all. Um, they were got their fathers that, you know, divorce or death or it would be easy for me to become the father that's absent in that I'm there, but I'm trying to overcompensate so hard that I'm not present.

• 2:51:21Speaker 02

  So so many guys with a similar wound.

• 2:51:28Shawn Ryan?

  How do you keep that balance?

• 2:51:30Speaker 02

  How do I keep the balance?

• 2:51:36Speaker 02

  I mean, for for me, it's like, again, like, my wife is just the best.

• 2:51:45Speaker 02

  Where we were doing premarital counseling and

• 2:51:52Speaker 02

  you know, looking, we were looking at like the five love languages. And she was saying, well, her top love language is quality time. And naturally, the way that we are naturally inclined to love people is the way in which we most naturally receive love, which often is not the same as our spouse. And, you know, with hope, she wanted quality time. Like, she was like, never, like, not seen as a, like, her family, it's like, if they they fell out of the Hallmark Channel, you know, it's like, not real life, you know.

• 2:52:33Speaker 02

  She, it's like, she talks to her mom and her sister multiple times a day and, you know, they're on like, you know, I, I, her sister just had a baby and they're like, you know, it, it's, it's wild. It's nothing like I've ever seen. It's almost, it's not uncomfortable, but it's like, it's so normal, it's weird to me.

• 2:52:54Speaker 02

  But she was like, quality time. So like, when I hear quality time, I'm like, quality date, quality dinner, quali- like, something really good.

• 2:53:09Speaker 02

  It's like, you know, I want, you know, sit on the, the end of a pier where the water is completely, you know, placid and just sit there, you know, no phones, nothing. Just unattached from everything, just me and you. The greatest gift that you can give me, the greatest present that you can give me is your presence. And that's hard for somebody that doesn't think a lot of themselves. So it was almost like the, the way that the way that she required me to love her well allowed me to heal.

• 2:53:52Speaker 02

  Feels like, man, how could you see that in me?

• 2:53:56Speaker 02

  And there's just been so many times where she has just did things and said things that have been so healing to me.

• 2:54:07Speaker 02

  So with our kids, you know, she reminds me that, you know, like Canon especially, that's my dude.

• 2:54:19Speaker 02

  He, he likes presents and likes like stuff. The end of the day, like he wants me to sit on the ground and play tic-tac-toe with him.

• 2:54:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:33Speaker 02

  And it's like we overcomplicate simple things that distracts us from the most meaningful things.

• 2:54:41Shawn Ryan?

  Good way to put it.

• 2:54:45Speaker 02

  So it's that, it's, you know, the way that she loves me well is she lovingly course corrects me from time to time. Sometimes it's, you know, a bony elbow and sometimes it's a, it's a kiss on the cheek, but

• 2:55:03Speaker 02

  she's never afraid to tell me the truth. And I appreciate that about, so much about her.

• 2:55:08Shawn Ryan?

  Sounds like a great woman.

• 2:55:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:55:13Speaker 02

  It is wild. I mean, like, we were, we were, you know, we were sitting with a group of people and someone asked her, like, well, you know, in good faith, they were asking her, like, like, gosh, I just admire you so much. Like, how do you not have animosity towards him? Slept with thousands of girls, you know, did all this stuff, it's all over the internet. And how do you not have, like, something like in you that causes you to compare yourself? You know, like, how do you not have animosity and like, how do you not have that in you? And she was like, well, I, I knew him for five days before he gave his life to Christ.

• 2:55:57Speaker 02

  So I'm not going to hold his past against him, like, and.

• 2:56:06Speaker 02

  I don't believe that when you Google him, you will find the thing that's most true about him. The thing that's most true about him

• 2:56:16Speaker 02

  is that he is a son of the king of kings.

• 2:56:22Speaker 02

  So I'm gonna speak to him and think of him the way that God does, not the way that Satan does.

• 2:56:29Speaker 02

  Because Satan would like me to hold on to his past. But God says, "That is my son whom I'm well pleased, that's been forgiven and cleansed by his blood." Like the prodigal son, like the prodigal son took one step toward his father. The father ran towards him and put a ring on his finger, sandals on his feet, a robe on his back, and threw a party because, you know, he said, "This is my son who's come home."

• 2:57:02Speaker 02

  And I think, man, it's like, if, if, I mean, if we can just understand like who God is, he would seem not only more attractive, but irresistible.

• 2:57:20Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, man.

• 2:57:24Shawn Ryan?

  That is a hell of a story.

• 2:57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:29Shawn Ryan?

  What a strong woman. Well, you wanna end it in a prayer?

• 2:57:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 2:57:34Shawn Ryan?

  All right, you lead it.

• 2:57:41Speaker 02

  Father, we thank you that

• 2:57:47Speaker 02

  we get to look at you and say, "Abba, Father."

• 2:57:57Speaker 02

  We thank you for our time together.

• 2:58:01Speaker 02

  And Lord, we just pray that the conversation that we had, it is both convicting and comforting in that it doesn't matter what you've done. It doesn't matter what's happened to you. It doesn't matter how far you've gone. You cannot outrun or outsend what Jesus has done for you on the cross. And to the person that is wrestling with and struggling with pornography addiction, God, I pray that you lovingly correct them, that you do not condemn them for their sin, that if they are a follower of you, that they are someone that would say, hey,

• 2:58:44Speaker 02

  I call myself a follower of Jesus. Your word says that Romans 8:1, that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So I pray that they don't feel condemned in shame, but they do feel corrected in their spirit in that this is not a good thing. This is not something that they should hide. This is something they need to tell someone that's close to them and that they pursue freedom and healing. And God, I just pray that to the person that doesn't know you, that we understand that we were created to live forever and where we spend forever is up to us.

• 2:59:27Speaker 02

  That you sent your son into this world to die the death that we deserved. He paid our debt on the cross. And God, I just pray that to the person that doesn't know you, that they, right now in this moment, that you draw them close to yourself and they say, hey, I'm a sinner that needs saving. I don't know how to do it on my own. But Jesus, I pray that you come to my life, that I turn from my sin and I turn to you and I give you my life and I trust you. And I pray that you fill them with the Holy Spirit so they can follow you with all their life for the rest of their life. We pray this all in Jesus' mighty name. Amen.

• 3:00:04Shawn Ryan?

  Amen.

• 3:00:07Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Josh, thank you, man.

• 3:00:10Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:00:11Shawn Ryan?

  I just hope that, uh, when I just hope that, and I know you will, and I wish you the best of, best of success with what you're doing now and spreading the message and, and I just hope that this conversation, you know, just, a lot of people out there caught in a vice, a trap, a prison, and they don't think they can find their way out of it. I've been in one multiple times. I know, I mean, it's a big part of what we do and, and, uh, I just hope people take this and, and realize there's always a way out. There is always a way out.

• 3:00:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, yeah, just the reality that wherever you are today, you're not, you're not stuck. You know, you're, you, you can change. It doesn't have to always be this way. Um, that's the gospel, that, you know, God loves us enough to meet us where we are, no matter what our situation is. Um, but he also loves us enough to not leave us as we are.

• 3:01:11Shawn Ryan?

  God bless, brother.