STRANGER THINGS finale Spoiler Special w/Matt & Ross Duffer

SPOILER WARNING: In their first and thus far only post STRANGER THINGS spoiler chat, Matt and Ross Duffer return to Happy Sad Confused to answer ALL the big questions! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  What are you going to say to folks about 11's fate? Whether it's whether she lived or not?

• 1:04Speaker 03

  I'll tell them to listen to this podcast and we'll give our answer.

• 1:11Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:19Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, it's a Stranger Things spoiler spectacular with Matt and Ross Duffer. Here we go, guys. A very special edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. I know I say that a lot, but come on. How often does a show, a phenomenon like Stranger Things end? And this kind of opportunity come around where we can really do a deep dive? I know you folks love the spoiler specials, whether we've done them for Superman, the last season of Stranger Things, et cetera. And this one definitely lives up to the hype because Matt and Ross really spoiled a lot on character endings, reasons for what they did.

• 2:01Josh Horowitz?

  The ideas they entertained, that they didn't pursue, the future, the spinoff. There's a lot here. If you're a Stranger Things fan, this one is gonna be a special one for you. Before we get to that, a couple of quick reminders. Remember, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. That's your place for all early access bonus materials, discount codes, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. We have two new New York events kicking off the year. January 6th in New York City. Tom Hiddleston, 92nd Street Y. Be there. He's always a gem. And then January 7th, Jennifer Lawrence, first time guest on the podcast. I've done a lot with Jennifer over the years. She's one of the best interviews out there.

• 2:42Josh Horowitz?

  I have very high hopes this will be a very memorable episode of Happy Sad Confused. I have the utmost confidence in that. Tickets are going fast for both of these. Link is in the show notes. You know what to do. Okay, not much more preamble. By the way, if you're watching this on video, my internet is like so spotty, I'm like out of sync. I apologize. I don't know what's going on. Anyway, doesn't matter. Ross and Matt Duffer. They came out of nowhere. Nobody knew who they were a decade ago. And now they are at the top of the heap, riding high off of the end of Stranger Things. Very well received by critics and audiences alike. I certainly loved the finale.

• 3:22Josh Horowitz?

  And this is a full-on, deep dive, exit interview spoiler special, whatever you want to call it. So, last warning, make sure you've seen Stranger Things 5, make sure you've seen the finale, because there's a lot here to unpack. Without any further ado, here's Ross Duffer, here's Matt Duffer, talking the end of Stranger Things. Enjoy. All right, Matt. All right, Ross. You guys ready for this? This is what it's all about.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's do it, man.

• 3:51Josh Horowitz?

  Here we go, guys. Stranger Things 5, mission accomplished. Congratulations, guys. This has been a long, long road, to say the least, and this is the exit interview. You ready to let it all hang out?

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, man, let's do it. Let's, uh, we're ready. We're not gonna give you the answer, though, as we'll ever be. To 11, though, we're not gonna give you an answer there, but otherwise, we'll do our best.

• 4:15Josh Horowitz?

  Don't start, don't start from a negative place. I've got 45 minutes to wear you down. By the end, it's gonna be like a waterboarding. You're gonna spill it all. I was saying to Ross before, like, I was listening back to our last conversation, not our last, but the spoiler conversation we did after Stranger Things 4, and it really struck me, like, everything you guys said, you did. I mean, you talked about, you know, coming back to original groupings, you talked about potentially doing the finale in theaters, you talked about a long kind of epilogue or Return of the King-esque structure. So, I mean, it does feel like you kept to the plan. Is that safe to say that, like, there weren't major swings?

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Roughly, yeah, roughly. I mean, we had, because, you know, if you remember, I mean, season four was in the midst of COVID. So, we had a massive, massive break where we, and we actually had time, we had finished writing season four, and we started to work on season five. So, we had an outline for it. It changed radically, the outline, because, you know, after, you know, season four came out, we looked back at the outline, and we thought a lot could be different and improved. Holly was not in that outline, for instance. But the rough shape of it, and especially the ending, was all laid out.

• 5:38Josh Horowitz?

  It's interesting. I was looking back, I was thinking back to Return of the King. Return of the King's, you know, epilogue is about 28, 30 minutes. You out-returned of the king, Return of the King. Congratulations.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Oh, shit. I actually did not know that. I didn't know that, no. Hey, but, you know, if you think about it, we're longer, quite a bit longer than the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Because what are we, 40, 50 hours? And there, even with the extended, they're 10? What are they, with the extended? Yeah.

• 6:10Josh Horowitz?

  10, 11. Yeah, yeah. But it did strike me, in watching the finale, it's an excellent finale, first of all, get that out of the way. Like, you really, you guys really nailed it, and I'm not alone in saying that. But structurally, it is a very interesting finale, because, you know, the action, I haven't looked at literally the time code, but the action kind of ends, like, what, 75, 80 minutes in?

• 6:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 6:31Josh Horowitz?

  And then it is really a Long, kind of like, return to roots, no supernatural, just like, just really marinating in the characters.

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:40Josh Horowitz?

  And it's so satisfying for an audience, but talk to me a little bit about, like, did you have any conflict, any, any inner, I don't know, worry about the structure of that last episode, or was it sort of like, this is just what it, what it demands, what we've, what we've built it, how it has to end?

• 6:57Speaker 03

  Um, no, it was always the intention to have that, you know, long of an epilogue, I think. You know, because ultimately, at the end of the day, this is, despite all the supernatural going on, it is a coming of age story. We obviously also have a lot of characters and we wanted to spend time with them. So we were very, in even outlining and building the season, we were very cautious to give ourselves the space to do that. And it's structured very differently for that reason than, than season four. That's why all the planning, the buildup and all that's in seven, so we can just start at a full sprint, which is different than we've done on any other finale.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  And the reason we wanted to do that is to give ourselves the space to have, spend that much time with our characters on the other side of this, um, without having it be a, you know, a, a three or four hour, uh, gargantuan finale. We wanted to try to keep it around, um, two hours.

• 7:56Josh Horowitz?

  So, before we get into the eleven of it all, which is a big part of the conversation, I mean, you guys know, like, there has been this obsession. It's, it's not unique to Stranger Things, but like, at the end of every show, it's like, who's gonna make it? Who's gonna die? The whole thing. And there was even some of your cast members at some points were talking like, people gotta go down, et cetera. Did any, here's my question, did any of the actors actually come to you and say, you know what, I'd be cool with offing me in the final season, final episode?

• 8:26Speaker 03

  Um, I don't remember Ross, do you? I don't. About a specific actor? I don't think so, no. Really? Uh, no, they, no, no one was like, no one did a Harrison Ford, uh, Return of the, like, just kid, just kill me. No, um, no, because I think they, they, they love these characters too, and they feel passionate about them. So, I don't, I don't, I don't think a single one came up to us and said, uh, kill me.

• 8:55Josh Horowitz?

  You, you, you have said, look, this is, this is not Westeros, this is Hawkins, so it didn't demand that kind of like bloodletting at the end. But you also have said, you know, in the writer's room, all bets are off, everything's discussed, everything's on the table.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, why wouldn't you? I mean, by the, I mean, the writer's room, you go over, I mean, it's not just character deaths. I mean, you explore everything, because why wouldn't you? It's like, as much as possible, you want to, you want to explore every possible avenue in terms of where the, the season and the show could go. And you try to land on what, you know, what feels right. I mean, like, the percentage of time spent on talking about death, and death of characters is really small, you know, because that's not, you know, that's not what the show has ever been about, you know, it's an adventure, uh, an adventure coming of age story. We could definitely kill some people. So, it's just not, not, not what

• 9:49Speaker 03

  we, we wanted to do, and, you know, it's not, to me, what the show is, or what the show is about. So, there wasn't like- You have to follow that. Go ahead, go ahead, Ross. I was saying, you have to follow, like, you follow through, so you run it through, and if you, and you do that, and you go to the end, and you see how it affects the narrative and the story, and the themes of that story. And, um, generally, when we did it, um, you know, it, it sort of dismantled the whole thematic structure, um, of Stranger Things. And I think when we were looking at various, you know, the finales of long-running shows that, um, landed the plane, um, uh, the ones that did it the best really just stayed true

• 10:32Speaker 03

  to what they were. And so, whatever the noise is, or, you know, uh, you know, bloodlust, like, you have to, at the end of the day, you have to go, no, let's just, we need to be true to what, um, what Stranger Things is and always was, um, from season one on.

• 10:49Josh Horowitz?

  I don't want to feel like you to feel like I'm obsessed with death, but like there's not like, there's not like a 48 hour period where you guys fell in love with one idea of one death that felt like.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  No, it's at least go down this road seriously. Really? Yeah. No, we did through, literally you go through every character and you talk about it. We did, we definitely did that. We did that exercise and when, once you go through that, you realize that, it was, it was wrong. It was wrong for the show, the story of these characters and this, this coming of age story that ultimately we're telling.

• 11:26Josh Horowitz?

  The, the Steve of it all took on a life of its own over the years, like you.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  I don't even know where that came from. Yeah.

• 11:33Josh Horowitz?

  But, but. That was. We must have been playing with the expectations by the end, no? I mean, like that moment.

• 11:40Speaker 03

  Oh, for, yeah, I don't know. Like, first of all, Ross and I, you know, we, we did run and we're always trying to build towards a, um, you know, a makeup between, and bromance, a little bit of a bromance between Steve and Jonathan. And then that led to the idea of him saving Steve. But yes, I'm sure there was a part of us going, well, you know, this is going to really mess with people who are. And then you, and then you see that moment in theaters with a crowd and it was fucking incredible. Uh, and the reveal when it's Jonathan, I mean, the crowd went nuts. So it's, it's, it is fun.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  Um, but yes, ultimately also it gave us a fun moment, but also allowed us to, um, sort of, those were the two characters moving into the finale. I mean, outside of like 11 and Hopper, which is more complex, but Steve and Jonathan were, were two of the characters that hadn't really resolved, um, their differences.

• 12:48Speaker 00

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• 13:19Speaker 05

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• 13:51Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we could spend a lot of time on the 11 of it all. Let's dive in. Okay, because this, you have opened yourself up to a conversation for the rest of your life, or whenever you want to be definitive about it. Like, you were going to be asked, what's real, what's not? Is Mike's story true? Are you prepared to be accosted at Starbucks day to day? And what are you going to say to folks about 11 Spade? Whether it's, whether she lived or not?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  I'll tell them to listen to this podcast and we'll give our answer. No, I mean, you know, obviously, we left it ambiguous for, you know, for a reason. I mean, we want the audience to be in the shoes of that Mike and the whole group are in, which is, it's up to you to choose whether to believe or not, right? I mean, there's evidence that could point in both directions. So that, you know, that's, that's the, that's the intent of the scene. And I can also get into, you know, there's a couple of things.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  You know, you can talk about it thematically, that there was almost...

• 15:05Speaker 03

  There's this element of Eleven representing sort of the more fantastical elements of the show. I mean, she's, you know, super coward, you know, the upside down, the monsters, like, if she existed, she would, you know, with them, she would still be part of like that, the fantasy and the magic and the would still be a part of their lives. And to us, you know, in a way, that represents childhood and imagination and wonder. And that is leaving with them as they transition from young adults to adulthood and closing the door on that part of their lives. So we like that from a thematic point of view. And as far as Eleven and the

• 15:47Speaker 03

  character of Eleven, we want, you know, that was really the initial conversation that we were having is, you know, from a realistic standpoint, how does she continue to exist in the world? We had that debate and have characters having that debate throughout the season. It's like, what, what could that look like? Is a happy ending, is a happy ending possible? Like a fully happy ending where she's like married to Mike and they're living a perfectly happy life and the government has completely laid off them and they've ended their lab and their experiment. And we just couldn't figure out a way for that to work. We love Eleven so much. So we, you know, we have, but then there's Hopper's

• 16:32Speaker 03

  point of view, right? Which is also extremely valid. So we had Kali representing the point of view I just talked about. And then we had Hopper representing, you know, the other point of view, which is also very valid. And I guess the question was, is there an in-between for her? And that's what Mike lands on at the end. And his answer is, yes, and that's what she chose. And whether the audience believes that or not is up to them. And we like leaving it up to them.

• 17:01Josh Horowitz?

  I like to think that after having seen, I don't know if you've seen Wicked for Good, she's in the same place that Elphaba is at the end of Wicked for Good.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  No one told me that. Yeah, Sean was telling me that. And I haven't seen, I know, I've never seen, I saw Wicked, I haven't seen Wicked for Good, and I never saw the musical. So I did not know that. But that's cool.

• 17:22Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, three minds. So who knows definitively? You guys have definitive answers in your head about what's what hurt.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:30Josh Horowitz?

  Actually it's so.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  You can't write going, well, I don't know what the answer is. This is ambiguous. I mean, you're writing from a point of view of understanding what the truth is, right? And the reality is, but it's just so. So, yeah, Ross and I know. And we were just talking to Millie about it, but I don't, you know, it's just, I think it takes away the power of the ending if you if you tell people what what you were thinking as you were writing that.

• 18:00Josh Horowitz?

  So what? So Millie Millie knows definitively too? Does she have a take?

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, literally, we were texting with her 30 minutes ago. Yeah. Got it. Yeah, I was gonna say, she's not gonna tell you. She's not gonna tell you either. If you want to try to get. Don't bother. Yeah, don't waste your time.

• 18:18Josh Horowitz?

  Is there? Does Noah know? He's my he's the best bet at this point, obviously.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  Oh, that is the I gotta tell. No, no, no, Millie swore herself to secrecy. You better watch that. I was gonna say. Millie and Noah are very close. So that's thank you for reminding us, Josh. We're gonna tell her to to not tell. I'm not even joking. I'm literally gonna text her right now.

• 18:39Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, I was gonna say, is there anybody we want to get on the line to to loop in here? I was talking to Joe the other day. He was like, I want in on the postmortem. Shall we get somebody on the phone?

• 18:48Speaker 03

  If the proper question comes up, we will. Okay, fair enough. I literally do not tell Noah.

• 18:57Josh Horowitz?

  That's amazing. So so, um, the redemption or near redemption of Henry of Vecna? How close did we come to a full on Darth Vader redemption arc for him? Can someone that's done so much really be redeemed? Did you explore that in the writer's room?

• 19:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, we initially talked about giving him a moment where he can turn against the mindflayer and help them defeat it. And I think ultimately, again, as you start to play that out, it feels wrong and we didn't believe it. He is so far gone at this point. He's done so much evil that for him to turn around, even if there is part of him inside, deep inside, that is innocent, that innocent child, I, you know, I think it's just, it's been buried beneath so much violence and anger over the years. And in terms of ambiguity, we did want to

• 19:57Speaker 03

  leave it up a little bit to the audience, too, in terms of Henry, of course, is saying he is in control as well as the mindflayer. How much of that, you know, we leave up to the audience. But I think you see a lot of it play out in Jamie's face in that final scene in the mineshaft. He's just incredible at conveying all of these different emotions and layers.

• 20:21Josh Horowitz?

  You've, since the finale has run, you've kind of hinted, more than hinted, you've said that the connective tissue to the spinoff that you're developing is in this backstory, is in this scene, this kind of origin story for Henry. So can you, what are you willing to say about what we see in that sequence with this mysterious, is it the same suitcase at the end of Pulp Fiction? I don't know if it's the same stuff in there.

• 20:43Speaker 03

  If it was the same, we'd have a stronger glow of a face for the same. Yeah, but it's the same. Wait, sorry, I have an update for Millie. I used to just have, I said, don't tell Noah. She said, of course not. So.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  She knows, she knows better. She knows. She knows. We all know, we all know and love Noah, but we do not trust him.

• 21:05Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  With secrets related to the show. So that, you know, I mean, there are a couple, obviously, there's some, some things that we don't fully answer in the show. I mean, the briefcase and The Rock and The Scientist and all that being a big part of it. So that, you know, that's the one, you know, we had talked about, there's, there's something in there that is going to hint at where the spinoff was. I didn't want to have to talk about it, but I got pinned down so hard that we're just talking about it. But anyway, that's, that's the part that we will dive into in the spinoff. Although, and I just want to emphasize, because I just don't want people's.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Expectations to be incorrect, which is that it's not, you know, a spin off about the, you know, exactly focused on the origin of the rock or focused on the origin of the Mayan flair. It's there are explanations, but it really is its own story with its own mythology.

• 22:05Josh Horowitz?

  The in terms of the spin off, we know very little beyond what you just said, but like, is it, is it another ensemble? Is it a young cast? Can you say anything like that?

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be an ensemble again. I think ultimately it is its own story and new characters and mythology, but a lot of the, the style of storytelling that we've done for 10 years now and Stranger Things will that that is something that will carry over, even though it is, you know, completely new, new story.

• 22:41Josh Horowitz?

  Do you imagine you'll direct any episodes? You're not, you're not show running it, right? You're, you're.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  Exactly. So we're co-creating it. I can't talk too much more about it, Josh, because I'm gonna get in trouble. Okay. So that I think all this stuff is gonna get announced. There's a lot of exciting things I wish I could talk about, but and, and, and, you know, what, you know, it's just still in early stages and hopefully at some point, um, more of this will be, will be announced.

• 23:11Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Well, we're gonna be, you know, we'll be heavily involved, even if we're not, you know, we're not gonna be show running and directing, we'll see, but I think ultimately, you know, we're gonna be there from, from beginning to end of the process.

• 23:24Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. So let's talk a little bit more about some of the fates of your other characters. I love what you've talked about, like that you really, you involve the actors. You wanted them to feel like, you know, some ownership, some skin in the game. They have a lot of skin in the game. They've created these characters alongside you. Um, who had the strongest POV? Who really impacted most, you think, where each of these characters ended up in the end?

• 23:51Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't, God, who impacted the most where they ended up?

• 23:59Speaker 03

  I mean, obviously, over the years, just working with these, whether it's Joe Keery and where Steven it up, obviously shaped it. I mean, I think they all did. Noah with Will, Finn with Mike. I mean, everyone did to a certain extent, but I think there was a level of trust and understanding as we went into this final season. And we certainly talked to everyone and we definitely talked to everyone, you know, as we were, we were working on the finale, writing it amidst production as we typically do unless there's a pandemic. And, uh, and just figuring out where people saw their characters, um, ending up at the end of this. So in terms of the, you know, uh, the colleges they went to, the flash

• 24:42Speaker 03

  forwards, all of that was, those were based on, um, conversations that we had with all the actors because obviously these characters mean so much to Matt and I, but it means, they mean just as much, um, to these actors. So we wanted to make sure that everyone felt like we, they were ending up in the, in the right place.

• 25:01Josh Horowitz?

  Did anyone make a, a pitch that just didn't work? That was fun, but just didn't work in the grand scheme of things?

• 25:07Speaker 03

  Um, well, I think Brett wanted Murray to be like a private eye in Chicago. That didn't make it in, but I, maybe he is. I think that's pretty. You know, I mean, that, that would be a Coda thing that we just didn't, you know, we didn't include Finn really wanted a gun and we compromised by giving him a flare gun. Um, and I, I don't, you know, beyond that, I can't, I can't, I, you know, I can't think about it. I mean, obviously this would all been like two years ago.

• 25:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 25:37Speaker 03

  What do you think? Um, didn't Maya want to die, Ross? That's the only one I'm trying to think. Or am I making that up? I don't, I don't know. I think you're making that up.

• 25:47Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know why he would make it up. Like a strange thing to make up.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  Because Josh, man, I just, there was so much, this, I, my head is in a, like, I really shouldn't have done any of these postmortem interviews. I'm not in a good place. Like, why the hell we did any, why the hell we did any of them yesterday is beyond me.

• 26:05Josh Horowitz?

  That's the best time to talk to you, when you're totally fried.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  I'm like, fried, I was like, yeah, I'm getting over the flu. You know, so, anyone mad at any answers we gave yesterday, just give me a break. Cut me some slack.

• 26:20Josh Horowitz?

  No, never. Uh, that's not how the internet works, you know that.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 26:25Josh Horowitz?

  Joyce and Hopper, it was always meant to be, it was always gonna work out, right? There was, that, that, that was.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  No, that was, yeah, they were gonna go to Enzo's, they were gonna, it was, there was gonna be, uh, yeah, I think, yeah, there was always gonna be a proposal, so forth. The idea of, of the, the relocation, doing a callback to Montauk. Um, you know, if, if people don't know, the, the show was originally set in Montauk. So it was just a little, um, nod and a wink for people who are, um, super familiar with the show and its origins. That was new, but otherwise that was, that was in place for a very long time, as was the scene of the kids playing D and D in the basement.

• 27:01Josh Horowitz?

  One thing, I think you've talked about before, but since now this is kind of, we're looking all the way back, and, and David said this to me before, like, he's like, I'm, I know for a fact I was not the first choice for Hopper. I don't know, like, if, how close you came, but, you know, it's been said that, like, you and McGregor and Rockwell were on your list. Like, did you come actually close to casting either of those guys for Hopper back in the day?

• 27:24Speaker 03

  Um, man. I mean, yeah, I mean, we, we, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't go out to certain people. You have to remember, though, at the time, True Detective hadn't even come out yet. And so the idea of movie stars committing to a seven-year television run was really rare. So it's happening more now, but even now, they tend to just commit to the limited series. So the big coup was, you know, the big thing we landed, the, the person we landed was Winona. And that was hard. You know, I mean, Winona was, because she grew up in an era where that was not something that you did as a movie star.

• 28:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  And I think it was, it was a really hard decision for her to make. But she loved the character.

• 28:16Josh Horowitz?

  She just learned, she just learned last year what a

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Streaming services. It took her a few. Exactly. Exactly. So, so that was, that was a major, that was a major get for us. I do, I don't remember Ewan McGregor. I do remember going out to Sam. Um, Sam Rockwell. I love, well, I love him and maybe we'll get to work together. Um, in the future, but I just, I do think it's like Indiana Jones and like Tom Selleck. Turning down, you know, Indiana or whatever, or. You know, Michael J. Fox being whatever third choice for Back to the Future. Like. It just, this stuff worked out. I mean, can you imagine it without David? Like I'm so relieved. These actors as incredible as they are passed on it, you know?

• 29:03Speaker 03

  I'm so relieved.

• 29:04Josh Horowitz?

  I do, I do, speaking of Winona, the, um, the you fucked with the wrong family moment.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 29:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is it, is delicious. Is, is it what, did she enjoy? Oh, with that moment, which you found out she was getting that?

• 29:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, finally got to use that axe. Um, yeah, she came ready. I mean, I, I'm, I think that's the first. The, her line reading is take one, I believe. I mean, she just came like ready to. Chop this head off. She was just dialed in when we finally got to that moment. It was very, very satisfying.

• 29:36Josh Horowitz?

  Um, you talked a little bit about the, the final scene in the basement, but I do want to hear it straight from you guys. Because this, this is the idea that's been around for a long, long time, not, not necessarily the passing of the baton. So the next generation, but literally closing the door on that D and D game. Yes. Is that, does a lot of that scene? Honor what you guys thought of eight plus years ago?

• 29:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was the idea. That was the idea is they, the, the final D and D game and then, um, yeah, ultimately. Letting go and saying bye to their childhood and shutting that door. That's been. That, yeah, that's been in there and planned, um, since we realized that the show was going to go on for more than one season. Um, that, that's always been the plan.

• 30:20Josh Horowitz?

  And one of the more emotional days in the course of the series has to be shooting that, yes?

• 30:26Speaker 03

  That was, yeah, it was definitely the most emotional day. In the last shot that we ever did is them putting the, putting their D and D, it was like behind the shelf and they're each putting, one by one, putting their, their books away. And I think just knowing that it was the last shot, knowing that what that meant, both for the actors and the characters, was, yeah, everyone, everyone was crying.

• 30:52Josh Horowitz?

  Did they get their, their D and D books? They get the individual books? Is that part of the, the goodbye package?

• 30:59Speaker 03

  Oh, man. I don't, I don't think they did get those books. Did they, Ross? I don't know. We gave everyone sort of like a, a key prop to, that was specific to each of their characters. Like Joe got, Joe got the bat, Winona got the, got the axe. Millie got her original dress from season one. So we sort of picked like, like a key prop or costume and, and framed it and gave it to each of the actors. But I don't know what happened to the books. That's a really good question. I remember, Ross, did we end up actually being able to give Nat the gun? Cause I know there was pushback on that because we weren't- I think we did. It's a rubber gun. I think we gave her the gun.

• 31:42Speaker 03

  It's a rubber gun, to be clear. It's not- Yeah, but no, there was, oh, or, oh, is that, was that the compromise? I think we wanted to give her the actual gun, but they only let us give her the rubber gun, I think.

• 31:54Josh Horowitz?

  No, everybody, give out guns to all their young cast on the way out. Get a revolver.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  Like Nat accidentally shoots someone in her New York apartment and then Sue's Netflix. I don't know what the concern was.

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• 33:19Josh Horowitz?

  As you look back at this season, the finale, was there a creative choice, a decision that you were excited by but also were worried whether the audience would be with you? What felt like the biggest creative risk that you took in this?

• 33:33Speaker 03

  I mean, 11. You know, I mean, absolutely. And then, you know, for all the reasons we outlined, then, and mostly for, you know, the reason, and, you know, some people are, I knew some people were going to be upset about, and some people are upset about, you know, because of what she went through. And it's, you know, it is painful, and I mean, it's painful for us. But, you know, yeah, but this notion that, you know, if Mike's theory is true, that she's not...

• 34:08Speaker 03

  You know, she's not happier and capable of living a happy life. Like, like she's gonna sit in a dark hole crying, um, you know, it's not, you know, not accurate. She's actually able, would be able to, um, live in peace where she's not being hunted. But, but the big thing to, she's sacrificing herself to protect her friends and family and, you know, or found family and also to protect what happened to her from happening to any other child in the future.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  It is. And I think. I see no. Go ahead. Yeah. Uh, no, I was just gonna say, and we, you know, we obviously looked at a lot of endings to, to big stories and, uh, you know, Lord of the Rings being, um, it, it hugely important and influential one for us. And I, I remember reading that really young and of course, seeing the movies in, in high school. And there is part, there was part of me at the time that there was a, there was some disappointment. Like I wanted Frodo just to come back and just party with and celebrate with his friends. And, you know, Return of the Jedi, you just, and you cut to black and I'm just cheering. And it's obviously much more complicated and bittersweet than that ultimately.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  And that's the ending, that's, that sticks with me all these years later. And I, as I grow older, I, the more and more I respect it. And I think, you know, sometimes, yeah, the best endings are there, there sometimes can be something bittersweet about them and there can be some ambiguity. And I think that's what we ultimately were, wanted to do with, uh, the final scene of, of Stranger. I mean, we want to, mostly it was about,

• 35:55Speaker 03

  you know, it's not about plot, it's about.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Or thi- this was, this was our goal and what our focus was, which is capturing the feel. It's all about capturing a feeling, which is capturing the feeling of, of what it felt like to leave childhood and your childhood friends behind and what it feels like to become an adult. And what, what, what leaves your life at that point in time? Like, what does that passage feel like? That, that, that was the focus of the finale, right?

• 36:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  I mean, the focus of the finale is not mythology. The focus of finale is emotion and feeling and just capturing and bottling what that felt like. It's sort of us grappling with, um, and, and, you know, sort of our nostalgia for childhood and just the sadness of leaving that behind, but also this feeling of happiness because you can, you know, think back on it and you can tap back into it whenever you want. And also the joy of seeing a new generation of kids be able to experience it. Like having a kid of my own now and seeing them have those same experiences, having that kind of boundless imagination, experiencing movies and actually fully believing what

• 37:21Speaker 03

  they're seeing as opposed to being jaded and analyzing camera angles, you know? Like, and lighting and blocking, you know? There's something just so beautiful and innocent about that time in your life. And it just, you can never recapture it. It's like a drug you try to, um, you know, it's just, you, you, you try to get that same high and you never can quite get there. I think it's like why so many of us are where we are now in the entertainment business is just trying to pre-

• 37:56Josh Horowitz?

  Chase and whatever that, yeah, yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  You know, that we had when we were younger and you do every once in a while. It's just, and it feels amazing. It's just so much harder, I think, to get now. And the internet, if anything, is making it even harder. I think.

• 38:16Josh Horowitz?

  Well, let's trip back all, all your knowledge, all you know too much. There's too much cynicism, all these layers. And I do think, I, I do think, I mean, I was watching, when I was watching the finale, I thought of like the comp, which has been there from the start of like L to E T and like that emotional ending of like, like E T was a change agent for Elliot and, and a transitional point for Elliot. That's, that's one of the most emotional. Like endings of anything in the history of, of film. And I think.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Well, that's maybe.

• 38:48Josh Horowitz?

  To bit of that in terms of.

• 38:49Speaker 03

  My favorite last shot. It might be my favorite last shot of any movie. I mean, I'm just unbelievable. Which wasn't originally supposed to be the last shot, by the way. And I think Axon. Or Dan too. Was it? There was, did he, did Spielberg shoot that? I think he did. Yeah, he did. Yeah, I think so. And I think that's what's interesting. It's like there is, there is a much more definitive ending to E T where they're contacting him again. And I think, but it's so much more powerful to leave that open. Um, to, for, for audiences to tell that story themselves if they want to, but not to actually just, you know, and, and so we absolutely talked about that, obviously as well as a, a Lord of the Rings. I mean, those are two major references, you know?

• 39:32Speaker 03

  Right. So like it's, it just, you know, just be super clear. And maybe I'm wrong. This is what I remember. I believe, and, and I don't know if you know Josh or whatever, but like that it does go full circle in E T. They're playing, they're playing, um, they're, they are playing D and D again, just like the beginning and, and eating pizza and so forth. And then it goes up on the roof and you see Elliot's bit, you know, put up some antenna to connect again with E T, right? So it ends on this very hopeful note. And so the equivalent of that would be Mike having, getting some sort of sign from L that maybe they'll be able to meet up again one day.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  And it's just, you know, E T to me, Spielberg made the exact right call to leave that up in the air and to close on that final shot of Elliot as E T leaves. It's just so much more on you, I think.

• 40:30Josh Horowitz?

  I could talk about ET and you guys for all day, but I would you want to add some burning other questions that people have been brought up. Here's, let me throw up a few at you. A lot of people want to know about who unlocked the door in season one, episode one, let the demogorg get in definitively. Say now?

• 40:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that was, that's, that's back now using psionic, his psionic abilities through the demo.

• 40:59Josh Horowitz?

  Was there ever a consideration of a Eddie cameo flashback, anything in this final?

• 41:06Speaker 03

  No.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  No. No, because I mean, what a performance Joe gave. Like, it's just gonna, it's just gonna absolutely take away from it. You know, so it felt, you know, it was, and also the whole story is about Dustin's story is about grieving Eddie. So the only, the only moments of Eddie we see are flashbacks to things we've already seen. And that was always the plan. There was, there was never any discussion of bringing Eddie back.

• 41:36Josh Horowitz?

  Some, some relationship status questions. What happened to Robin and Vicky? Did it work out? Did it not work out?

• 41:44Speaker 03

  I mean, it's definitely implied that it did not work out. Right. I know, by the way, like, but you know, certain things are open to interpretation. They are, they're, they're having issues, you know, you know, Robin says a thing about overbearing significant others. So that's, you know, whether they're, whether it's rocky and, or they're taking a break from each other, or they broke it up. But by the way, like, when, how many couples do you know that, you know, were in high school that when they went to different colleges, stayed together? It's like zero. Zero. So the odds are bad. The odds are-

• 42:26Speaker 03

  Max and Lucas, yeah, it's not zero, because Max and Lucas, I believe- I know, but that is like a one in a million, like-

• 42:33Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, because that's the exception.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  True love.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  Max and, yeah, I mean, you see in the, you see that, you know, I know it's Mike saying what's gonna happen, but that is, you know, that, that is, that is real. Their love is just too, too pure, too strong.

• 42:50Josh Horowitz?

  And Hopper and Joyce, they're they're solid. They've this is life partners now. They're it's gonna work out.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  It's gonna it's gonna work out. I can't imagine. They're gonna move to Montauk. I can't imagine it not working out.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  And Joyce, she's finally gonna get out of Hawkins for real. It's gonna be it's gonna be good.

• 43:09Josh Horowitz?

  They finally get to Montauk where you're gonna shoot the show 10 years ago. They never got to shoot there.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  That's right. Just couldn't afford it.

• 43:16Josh Horowitz?

  Nancy's not getting back together with Jonathan, though. That's not that's probably not likely to happen.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  I mean, you don't know. I mean, they're they're they love each other, right? I mean, you just even see that look between them on on the roof. It's it's it's less about like

• 43:35Speaker 03

  they need time apart. Like Nancy needs time to find herself. Jonathan needs time to find himself. They're in different schools. It doesn't mean that they can't come back together. And we just we we don't know. And I don't I don't want

• 43:50Speaker 03

  to answer definitively one way or the other. I mean, we don't know. We end the show before that happens. But they're they're they're bonded for life and there's a deep love, you know, between each other. That's why I do, you know, love the breakup scene because it's a it is it is a breakup scene, but and but there's this deep love between them that's never gonna go away. They truly deeply love each other. So the question of, you know, could they reconnect and and and end up married? A hundred percent. We just don't know. Or do they find other life partners and just remain the best friends? I don't know. I mean, those are two two distinct possibilities.

• 44:28Josh Horowitz?

  I know you said there are no like cutscenes, but you did say that like there's an extended version of that rooftop.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's mostly just them talking more about Jonathan's movie. It's nice.

• 44:40Josh Horowitz?

  There's a 10 minute riff on Jonathan's movie.

• 44:41Speaker 03

  We were made. Yeah, we were made up all that on the day with the teens and we just had so much fun with it. We were fucking around. If there's ever gonna be any sort of continuation with the characters, we were like, let's just go make this stupid shitty, you know, let, you know, consumer movie with the teens, you know, shoot it on 16 millimeter. But I doubt that will ever happen. We'd only need like $100,000 from Netflix or something.

• 45:12Josh Horowitz?

  Some folks have spotted this call back to the dark crystal poster for the for the abyss. That's an accident?

• 45:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. Me, I should not saying this stuff and start taking credit for it. Just take credit for it. I agree. I agree. I know. I saw they pointed it out. I thought it was, I think it's, I think it's awesome. Listen, I don't know, but Josh, I mean, truly, I don't know how much of this is subconscious.

• 45:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  Right? I mean, because this stuff was all a big part of our childhood, as was Dark Crystal. So are you like, kind of, privying from it without even realizing it? I don't, I mean, maybe. I don't, I really truly don't know. I mean, we obviously loved Dark Crystal. We obviously were staring at that poster very recently. We just had it in the show. Um, it's in Mike's room. So it's not, it's not inconceivable. I'm just saying, it wasn't something in the room where we said, let's make it look like the Dark Crystal. Because it, you know, really it was, you know, what would the mind flare look like folded up? You know, that, that's, that's where it came from and our concept artist worked that out.

• 46:18Josh Horowitz?

  All right, I'm gonna let you go and a couple more if you guys are, will indulge me. You've, you, we, we know about the spinoff you guys are, are getting serious about. We know obviously about the play, which is exceptional. People should check it out. I've seen it a couple of times. You've hinted at something else, though. There, you've hinted at, there, is there another Stranger Things project that is yet unannounced on the animated show we know about? But is there something else cooking that we just don't know about?

• 46:42Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes, but it's not. I don't know why, man, I don't even know why you. Huh? I don't know, I don't know why you tease this. Uh, yeah, there is, there is something else, so. I don't want to be like, there's nothing else when there is something else and it's super rad. Uh, yeah, talking about, it's not, it's not what people are probably gonna think it is. So I don't, I don't.

• 47:03Josh Horowitz?

  Is it a different medium? Are we talking video game? Are we talking?

• 47:06Speaker 03

  No, it's not a video. I wish it was a video game. No, no, I'm, I'm not, I, I wish there was also a video game. Let me, let me rephrase. I, we've tried, Josh, we've tried. Um, um, I know, I, you know, it's rad. It'll be announced at some point. Um, but the big, big thing is the live action spinoff and that's, um, um, something we're gonna really start working on on Monday.

• 47:31Josh Horowitz?

  How do you equate, like, is there a comp for a universe you're building out? Like, we've seen, obviously, lots of, whether it's Star Wars, War of the Rings, DC, Marvel. Like, is, like, in how you're envisioning how to build out a Stranger Things universe? That's, that's an appropriate comp in your mind, or no?

• 47:50Speaker 03

  It's, it's hard, because most of the big franchises that you look at, whether it's, yeah, whether it's Marvel or, or Star Wars are just, it's a very different beast than what we have with Stranger Things, which is more of a contained world. It's not, oh, we don't have all these sprawling universes and alternate dimensions to go to. So I think it's, we're trying something a little bit different. And I, we're excited about it, because it allows us to tell new stories.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  And yes, it'll connect, but also it really is going to be its own, own, own thing with its own identity. Because I think the only other option would be to start to continue to mine these tiny little gaps or openings in the show, which they're, they're just becoming less and less. Obviously, we did it with the play, and we doing it with the, the cartoon. But we're, we're almost, we're, we're almost out of, of those little openings. So we really just have to, and it's just going to be diminishing returns. So we have to just go and build something completely new. But we're excited about it. It's, it's just an idea that we're just so, think it's going to be so awesome.

• 49:14Josh Horowitz?

  All right, well, we'll end with this. So as you sit here today, no, obviously, no plans to continue with any. of these characters ET never did it and they never did the sequel but you know the world you know the world we live in today it's hard to leave anything alone we're gonna keep talking over the subsequent years in five years in 10 years when we're talking are we talking about more stories with these characters if you're betting men what do you say

• 49:41Speaker 03

  I mean I hope not I because that would be

• 49:46Josh Horowitz?

  you know I'm taping this and I can put these out re-mat

• 49:48Speaker 03

  I could I could come back and and really regret this I uh no I don't want I we don't want to I mean we really don't um and um I mean listen we don't own the IP it's not up to me but I don't think that it's something Ross and I are interested in I mean we spent 10 years aren't a lot are of our lives on this and it's a coming of age story and if it's not a coming of age story you know what is it I mean I think the you'd have the only way it could work is we'd have to wait a really long time until our cast is so old that they would have kids that are around 12 years

• 50:29Speaker 03

  old like you know like the Goonies spinoff that is the only version that could possibly work but that's a long time for now and

• 50:37Josh Horowitz?

  Millie's helping you out already Millie started this off

• 50:43Speaker 03

  yeah what I think 12 but I think ultimately it take I I think it'll just take away from it would take away from this story and and the ending you know and and with this the ending with 11 that we have and um leaving it up to the audience uh you sort of in any direction you go you steal the power from that and you steal the the power from the from the ending so there are no no plans no plans

• 51:11Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, this was recorded. I will revisit this. We all will.

• 51:16Speaker 03

  Yes, if this not bite me in the ass when I'm like, I need some fucking money. What will George Lucas this? Enter. Is that possible?

• 51:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, sure.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, just lob it off before you ask that question.

• 51:33Josh Horowitz?

  No problem. I'm here for you. Congratulations, guys. Truly. It's been such a privilege to go on the journey with all of you guys, your cast. I'm in love with the show. You really wrapped it up so, so damn well. And you guys know better than anybody how difficult that is. I hope you're enjoying the moment and take 48 hours.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  Trying to, man.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  Very, it's a very confusing feeling. You know, I mean, we've been texting with the cast and everyone's everyone's not sure what to do. I mean, you know, and everybody, everybody's spread out. I think that's what's really hard. Like, we're all feeling so desperate to get together and no one's in the same location. And that's, that's challenging, but we'll see each other again soon. So, but yeah, it's been a blast. And thank you for, truly for supporting the show for so long. It means a lot to us.

• 52:30Josh Horowitz?

  Anytime. I'll see you guys soon, I'm sure. And congrats again. Thanks, Ross. Thanks, Matt.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  Thank you, Josh. Happy New Year, man. Yeah, happy new year.

• 52:38Josh Horowitz?

  All right. You too. Truly. Thanks, guys. Talk to you soon.

• 52:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:43Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 53:02Speaker 05

  You've got your favorite blanket, a freshly poured drink, and a cold case burning a hole in your streaming queue. You're not just watching true crime. You're running the investigation from the comfort of your couch. Welcome to Murder She Watched, the podcast where we recap, dissect, and slightly overanalyze some of the best and And craziest, true crime documentaries on our favorite streamers. Did the spouse do it? Why is the shady neighbor wearing leather gloves in July? Why did this guy agree to be interviewed in this documentary? We ask the tough questions that you're often just screaming at your TV. So every week, we break down the twists, red herrings, and absurd documentaries that have kept you up all night.

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