Playing Devil’s Advocate Against Our Own Money Advice

📕 Grab George Kamel’s book, Breaking Free from Broke. Sometimes, you’ve got to entertain the haters and put your own teachings to the test. Today, we’re taking turns playing devil’s advocate against our own financial advice—tune in and let us know how we did in the comments! Next Steps: 🎙️ Catch our episode We Dedicated an Entire Episode to Respond to the Haters. 🍸 Follow Smart Money Happy Hour on TikTok: @smartmoneyhappyhour 📱 Submit a Guilty As Charged question for Rachel and George! Leave us a voicemail with your question at 877-306-1517 or send a DM to @rachelcruze or @georgekamel on Instagram! Be sure to type “GUILTY?” at the top of your message so we don’t miss it. 💵 Create a free budget and find more margin with EveryDollar. Connect With Our Sponsors: Check out the FAIRWINDS Credit Union exclusive account bundle. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. Get up to 40% off with code SMARTMONEY at Cozy Earth. Today’s Happy Hour Special: 🍹 Bourbon Milk Punch Recipe from Liquour.com 2 ounces bourbon 3 ounces whole milk 1 ounce simple syrup 2 dashes vanilla extract Garnish: nutmeg, freshly grated Instructions: Add bourbon, whole milk, simple syrup and vanilla extract into a shaker with ice and shake until well-chilled. Strain into a rocks glass, and garnish with freshly grated nutmeg. Explore More From Ramsey Network: 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🧠 The Dr. John Delony Show 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05George Kamel?

  Today, we're flirting with the dark side of personal finance. Let's play devil's advocate with some controversial money topics. I'm out here defending Rachel.

• 0:12Rachel Cruze?

  I want to win one of these. I feel like you're a...

• 0:15George Kamel?

  I'm a trial lawyer. I'm trying to think of a time you would break the law, but then not know you broke the law.

• 0:20Rachel Cruze?

  Uh, that was me.

• 0:26Rachel Cruze?

  Hey, guys, I'm Rachel Cruz.

• 0:28George Kamel?

  I'm George Kamel.

• 0:30Rachel Cruze?

  And this is Smart Money Happy Hour.

• 0:38Rachel Cruze?

  Cheers, George.

• 0:39George Kamel?

  Cheers. To milk.

• 0:42Rachel Cruze?

  Oh.

• 0:43George Kamel?

  May she live forever.

• 0:46Rachel Cruze?

  And it'd always be part of our story.

• 0:47George Kamel?

  Shout out to Big Dairy.

• 0:48Rachel Cruze?

  You know, I'm not mad at it. Okay. This is the show where two friends who happen to be money experts talk about what you're talking about. So everything from pop culture, current events, and money.

• 0:58George Kamel?

  But first, let's talk about milk. We're sipping on milk.

• 1:02Rachel Cruze?

  No, stop, no.

• 1:03George Kamel?

  Technically, it's a bourbon milk punch.

• 1:05Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 1:06George Kamel?

  If that makes it sound any better.

• 1:08Rachel Cruze?

  It does. A little eggnog. It's like a little bit of a it's a holiday. I think there's the nutbags on top, right?

• 1:14George Kamel?

  Yeah, a little nutmeg shaved around there.

• 1:16Rachel Cruze?

  It's a very holiday. I'm not mad at it. This by a fire with like a cozy earth blanket, you know? You're just like hanging.

• 1:24George Kamel?

  Okay, you really painted a picture there for me.

• 1:25Rachel Cruze?

  I think it's great with a good book, a little

• 1:27George Kamel?

  You lost me at the book.

• 1:28Rachel Cruze?

  Crackle pop through the fire.

• 1:29George Kamel?

  Why not a good Hallmark movie? Why we gotta read? It's the holidays. Let me enjoy my life. Hey, stick around till the end. We're going to give you our rating and reveal the cost per glass at the end of the episode. All right, Rachel, we spend a lot of our time explaining, or maybe defending our stance on personal finance and building wealth.

• 1:47Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, and you know, I love a good debate, George.

• 1:49George Kamel?

  More than anyone.

• 1:50Rachel Cruze?

  I love stirring the pot. I had one upstairs earlier this afternoon. I mean, like, I guess earlier this morning with some of our team. It was great. Just a hot button topic. We were all

• 2:01George Kamel?

  Like you just kind of dropped a little conversation grenade in there just to see?

• 2:04Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah.

• 2:04George Kamel?

  How to go?

• 2:05Rachel Cruze?

  It was great. So fun.

• 2:07George Kamel?

  I love it. Well, today, we thought it would be fun to take turns playing devil's advocate and debate each other on some dicey money topics. So be sure to drop your take in the comments and play along with us.

• 2:18Rachel Cruze?

  Hey, so before we get started, do you want to know where devil's advocate comes from?

• 2:22George Kamel?

  I would say I'm mildly intrigued.

• 2:24Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 2:24George Kamel?

  Tell me more.

• 2:25Rachel Cruze?

  Well, I like it because it's going back to church history. And you know my fascination these days about church history. Uh, the Third Communal Council, no, we're not, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding, JK. I was gonna go back to church history, but I won't, so.

• 2:38George Kamel?

  Don't do it. Don't get her started.

• 2:40Rachel Cruze?

  In the 16th century, you ready for this, the Catholic Church? In precisely 1587, the Pope established, uh, God, it's Latin for devil's advocate. Can you do it? Uh. This makes me nervous.

• 2:53George Kamel?

  Advocatus diaboli.

• 2:55Rachel Cruze?

  Good, George!

• 2:56George Kamel?

  I don't know if that was right. It felt more, it leaned more Harry Potter than it did Catholic Church. I'll say that.

• 3:02Rachel Cruze?

  Well, that is basically, they were saying they don't want anyone to enter sainthood without basically some criticism pushed back. Like if you have any counter arguments against this person who's going to enter sainthood, you get to be devil's advocate. So that's like where it came from.

• 3:18George Kamel?

  So like they're trying to raise up all the doubts, the flaws, the inconsistencies to make sure they are ripe for sainthood.

• 3:24Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 3:25George Kamel?

  That'd be scary.

• 3:25Rachel Cruze?

  So I think, oh my gosh, terrible. Yeah.

• 3:28George Kamel?

  Especially whatever dungeon they were doing this in back in medieval days.

• 3:31Rachel Cruze?

  All the chiseled.

• 3:33George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 3:33Rachel Cruze?

  Stone, I guess they were writing.

• 3:35George Kamel?

  Wow, that makes sense.

• 3:36Rachel Cruze?

  We're not going all the way back to Moses getting stone tablets.

• 3:42George Kamel?

  Oh, that's where you went.

• 3:44Rachel Cruze?

  I'm kidding. You know, I'm terrible with timelines. Who was the artist that like just died like?

• 3:49George Kamel?

  Picasso.

• 3:49Rachel Cruze?

  Yes!

• 3:50George Kamel?

  You were like 1800s, it was like, uh, 1960s?

• 3:54Rachel Cruze?

  Blew my mind. It's crazy.

• 3:57George Kamel?

  Well, this makes sense. Sometimes when you have a firm belief or a stance, people assume you're completely uninformed about the other side.

• 4:03Rachel Cruze?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:04George Kamel?

  And I think healthy people have no problem having a healthy debate, healthy discussion, playing the devil's advocate without losing their mind.

• 4:10Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, that's what I. I love because I think you could have your stance of like, okay, yes, I lean this way in life about a subject, but also be genuinely interested in, okay, where are you coming from if it's opposite? Because there's a reason you have your opinion too, and I want to hear from it. So we're going to do the unthinkable, George.

• 4:26George Kamel?

  What's that?

• 4:27Rachel Cruze?

  We're going to do devil's advocate with Ramsey financial advice.

• 4:31George Kamel?

  So one of us has to go against Ramsey advice as a game.

• 4:34Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 4:34George Kamel?

  What kind of sick twisted game is this?

• 4:36Rachel Cruze?

  Are you so excited?

• 4:38George Kamel?

  Dave, just know I didn't want to be a part of this. I said I would do it.

• 4:42Rachel Cruze?

  He wanted to opt out. He wanted to opt out, but it was sucker gin.

• 4:46George Kamel?

  Okay, don't clip this out of context, guys. All right?

• 4:49Rachel Cruze?

  This is gonna be fun. Okay, I'll play devil's advocate first.

• 4:52George Kamel?

  All right, first category?

• 4:54Rachel Cruze?

  Uh, we're gonna go prenups.

• 4:55George Kamel?

  Juicy.

• 4:56Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, okay, so you give the Ramsey take and then I'll go devil's advocate.

• 5:00George Kamel?

  All right, Ramsey take on prenups, in general, you don't need one, you shouldn't want one. It usually points to some deeper trust issues. And unless you have extreme variance in wealth, like one person, you know, is coming in with a seven-figure net worth, the other person is broke, okay, maybe a prenup could make sense. So if there's a family business involved on one side, but for the average American, you don't need a prenup.

• 5:23Rachel Cruze?

  Okay, I would say, yes, you do, George, to be devil's advocate, protect yourself. That majority of, I say majority of marriages and divorce, I don't think it's majority, maybe 50% or whatever that stat is. You have a, you have a one in two chance of an ending, so might as well protect yourself and your assets go again. Why would you not? That's crazy, George.

• 5:43George Kamel?

  Well, speak to this from the female's perspective. A lot of women out there are worried because what if, you know, they end up staying at home and they don't have an income? And now they're left in a lurch.

• 5:52Rachel Cruze?

  A hundred percent.

• 5:52George Kamel?

  If the marriage ends.

• 5:53Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, you sound like you're on my side now.

• 5:55George Kamel?

  I'm just trying to, I'm trying to help you out as the devil.

• 5:59Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, yeah, so you want to protect yourself and make sure that you have assets if you ever have to leave a marriage.

• 6:04George Kamel?

  I mean, there's a legal process of getting divorced.

• 6:06Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, do you know how much money that takes to get lawyers involved and everything? No, hassle, no.

• 6:11George Kamel?

  Get a mediator, you'll be all right.

• 6:13Rachel Cruze?

  No, stop, no, just give me a document.

• 6:15George Kamel?

  A document that says, dismines.

• 6:18Rachel Cruze?

  This is mine.

• 6:18George Kamel?

  No takey from me.

• 6:19Rachel Cruze?

  This is mine.

• 6:20George Kamel?

  What if you're the person coming into it with nothing and you want to build wealth with this person? That feels unfair.

• 6:27Rachel Cruze?

  Uh, no, cuz I started, I got us up on the, on the ledge to go forward and you're, I'm dragging you behind me.

• 6:36George Kamel?

  I raise you one devil's advocate. Let's say Winston came into this marriage with two properties and they have mortgages on them. Well, now you're married, you're building wealth together and some of your money is going towards fixing up that property, paying down the mortgage of that property and your name isn't on it. But the prenup says, hey, this is Winston's, you don't get to touch that if the marriage ends.

• 6:55Rachel Cruze?

  Then we're gonna continue to not put money towards his properties.

• 7:01George Kamel?

  This feels like there's some marital dissent now.

• 7:04Rachel Cruze?

  It starts to dwindle.

• 7:05George Kamel?

  But you see where it becomes...

• 7:06Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, I know.

• 7:08George Kamel?

  That's the part I don't like.

• 7:09Rachel Cruze?

  Scene. Now we're back to regular Rachel and George.

• 7:12George Kamel?

  Snapped out of it.

• 7:15Rachel Cruze?

  Uh, no, but for real, I get why some people are fearful going into marriage if they do have money and assets, right? Cuz you're just like, oh my gosh. But I think that's the thing is I think that it, I do have to believe, which we did not get a prenup, Winston and I didn't, so I can't speak to this. But there, I think there is a level of like going into it automatically being like, I'm not, we're not on the full same team. Does that make sense? Like, I like the idea of not a prenup personally, there's something about that.

• 7:43George Kamel?

  There's a spirit about that that says, I'm all in.

• 7:45Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, and that was, we're building life together, we're building it together fully and there's not this like, peace that is always gonna be yours, I don't know. But again, if it's, if it's crazy difference, I agree with our advice usually, like, then yes, I think that's fair. But it's this like, it's not that big, it's not that much of a difference, I think it already...

• 8:05George Kamel?

  I'll play devil's advocate to yours.

• 8:06Rachel Cruze?

  Oh my gosh.

• 8:07George Kamel?

  I saw, I saw a divorce lawyer talking about this and he said something to the effect of, when you are getting married and in that prenup process, you like each other the most that you're gonna like each other essentially. So like, do it when you have that spirit and you'll go into it making good decisions with the prenup versus it being, well, this is mine, that's yours. You know, you're, you're in a good spot when you're about to get married.

• 8:27Rachel Cruze?

  Well, also too, I mean, a lot of times, the state is your, I mean, a lot of times, it gets split 50/50.

• 8:33George Kamel?

  They'll decide what's fair.

• 8:35Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 8:35George Kamel?

  And that's where I'm like, the question is, do you trust?

• 8:38Rachel Cruze?

  The system.

• 8:39George Kamel?

  The system.

• 8:39Rachel Cruze?

  Right.

• 8:40George Kamel?

  To decide what's fair.

• 8:40Rachel Cruze?

  Right, and how good is your lawyer and how much can you afford, yeah.

• 8:43George Kamel?

  And whose, whose side are they gonna lean on depending on what happened in the situation?

• 8:48Rachel Cruze?

  Super crazy, yeah.

• 8:50George Kamel?

  Yikes. Yikes. Yeah, we get calls where it's like, well, I'm making 60 and she makes 40 and I feel like I need to-

• 8:55Rachel Cruze?

  That was one call I got. He was making 85, she was making 60. He was like, we need a prenup. I was like, dude, stop that. That is so, no. I'm like, get off your high horse, dude.

• 9:04George Kamel?

  Get off the high horse. You got roasted for that. That was fun.

• 9:07Rachel Cruze?

  I did. Well, because they, the team clipped me in the middle of my rant.

• 9:10George Kamel?

  Well, they made it sound like, you make 85, shut up. And you were not saying that's a bad income.

• 9:15Rachel Cruze?

  No.

• 9:16George Kamel?

  You were saying comparatively to her income, it's not that wildly different.

• 9:19Rachel Cruze?

  No, no, if it was 385, do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's what we're talking about. It's like, yes.

• 9:24George Kamel?

  I'm out here defending Rachel.

• 9:26Rachel Cruze?

  Unbelievable. Okay.

• 9:27George Kamel?

  What has this come to?

• 9:28Rachel Cruze?

  Next up, car loans, George.

• 9:31George Kamel?

  Oh, boy.

• 9:32Rachel Cruze?

  Okay. You get to be devil's advocate. See, the prenup one was tough because you could, you could get a lot of different ways. You can kind of-

• 9:38George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 9:39Rachel Cruze?

  This one-

• 9:39George Kamel?

  I have to defend the car loan.

• 9:40Rachel Cruze?

  You get to defend the car loan.

• 9:41George Kamel?

  Like, why is it smart to take out a car loan?

• 9:43Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 9:44George Kamel?

  Okay, what's the Ramsey take?

• 9:45Rachel Cruze?

  Okay, so, majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. And, I mean, it's over, over half. And the average new car payment is over $700. And if you had invested that money versus paying that amount, maybe even with interest on top of it, all the things, in an asset that's going down in value, uh, what you would have is literally millions of dollars. So, you're basically trading your future for a car that is going to be worth maybe 5,000 when you sell it, uh, to trade it out for something else. And then if you don't have money saved and you're in the car loan loop, you're going to go right back into that car loan, into another one. And then that's money leaving every single month.

• 10:29Rachel Cruze?

  So, uh, I think it's probably one of the worst financial decisions to make.

• 10:33George Kamel?

  Wow. Okay. Insert devil's advocate.

• 10:36Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, go.

• 10:38George Kamel?

  Rachel, have you seen the prices of cars these days? It is totally unreasonable to tell someone to pay for a car in cash.

• 10:45Rachel Cruze?

  I know. It may, it may not be a great car. And it may be a car you only drive for like 6, 8 months and you end up selling it.

• 10:51George Kamel?

  Well, that's a whole process.

• 10:53Rachel Cruze?

  And then getting a new one.

• 10:54George Kamel?

  And who's going to pay for the repairs and maintenance on this crappy used car that I bought?

• 10:58Rachel Cruze?

  Well, as you're going, hopefully it's not a ton if you're not having it for a long period of time.

• 11:02George Kamel?

  And so you keep stepping- You want me to just get in and out of cars every 6 months? That feels crazy.

• 11:06Rachel Cruze?

  Eight, yeah. And then if, as you keep going up, and you can find reliable cars. It is very doable.

• 11:11George Kamel?

  But then after like, if I'm gonna save up 600 bucks a month to go get this car, why not just take on a $600 a month payment? What's the difference?

• 11:19Rachel Cruze?

  Because when you actually have it, you own the car full out and then

• 11:22George Kamel?

  It's an appreciating asset. I don't care to own something that's going down in value.

• 11:27Rachel Cruze?

  Well, you're so you're gonna pay extra on something that's going down in value.

• 11:30George Kamel?

  It's a little bit of interest. I can get a good rate with my credit score.

• 11:32Rachel Cruze?

  Man, you're really good at this, George. It's not that. It's terrible. I feel like you really

• 11:36George Kamel?

  I'll lease it. I'll lease it. It's even cheaper. It's basically a cheap rental car.

• 11:39Rachel Cruze?

  No, that's actually the most expensive way to finance a vehicle is leasing. I'd rather you take out a car payment.

• 11:45George Kamel?

  Cause at least at the end, you own it. At least at the end of the car payment, you own the car. The insurance is built in. I never have to do maintenance on it.

• 11:52Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, but the amount of interest that's baked into it is extremely high, usually higher on average than a car payment.

• 11:57George Kamel?

  That's a fee I'm willing to pay for the convenience and reliability.

• 12:00Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 12:00George Kamel?

  And driving a new car all the time.

• 12:01Rachel Cruze?

  Don't complain that life is expensive then, so.

• 12:04George Kamel?

  I'll delete the tweets.

• 12:07Rachel Cruze?

  That's good, George.

• 12:07George Kamel?

  That was really, you know what?

• 12:08Rachel Cruze?

  Man.

• 12:09George Kamel?

  It feels good to be on the wrong side of history. That felt really good to justify why I needed a super luxuries $50,000 car.

• 12:19Rachel Cruze?

  Lease car.

• 12:20George Kamel?

  I make good money. I can afford the payment. Who cares?

• 12:22Rachel Cruze?

  Who cares?

• 12:22George Kamel?

  It's not your life.

• 12:23Rachel Cruze?

  Mm hmm. Let me live my life.

• 12:24George Kamel?

  Let me live my life. I want to live in a nice apartment, drive a nice car.

• 12:28Rachel Cruze?

  What would be, what would be the crazy car you would get?

• 12:30George Kamel?

  If I was gonna lease a car?

• 12:31Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah. What would you do?

• 12:32George Kamel?

  I guess you'd go luxury.

• 12:34Rachel Cruze?

  Yo, for sure.

• 12:35George Kamel?

  Like, I'm not gonna lease a Nissan Sentra.

• 12:37Rachel Cruze?

  You know what I kinda wanna drive? I would never buy one.

• 12:39George Kamel?

  A Range Rover. Uh, the G-Wagon.

• 12:41Rachel Cruze?

  G-Wagon? How'd you know? Oh my gosh, very like Chris Jenner.

• 12:44George Kamel?

  How did I know? Every white woman in America is dreaming about driving a G-Wagon.

• 12:49Rachel Cruze?

  I do think they're, I think they're cool.

• 12:51George Kamel?

  Is it because of the Kardashians? Do they popularize it?

• 12:53Rachel Cruze?

  I think they did, like, years and years and years ago. I think they were the first ones I ever saw drive one on Keeping Up With The Kardashians. Um, but now they've made their way to Nashville. I just think they're cool looking. I like them.

• 13:04George Kamel?

  I will say, they're very unique and I'm sure it's a wonderful vehicle.

• 13:08Rachel Cruze?

  Yep.

• 13:08George Kamel?

  Is it worth hundreds of thousands of dollars? I don't think so.

• 13:11Rachel Cruze?

  Probably not.

• 13:12George Kamel?

  But would you buy a used one if you could find like a decent used one?

• 13:16Rachel Cruze?

  Well, I have three kids. I can't. It's not.

• 13:18George Kamel?

  It's not a fan. It's a.

• 13:19Rachel Cruze?

  It's a.

• 13:19George Kamel?

  Kids are out of the house.

• 13:20Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, yes. If I had one kid, maybe. I don't know.

• 13:25George Kamel?

  Yeah, I'd probably end up.

• 13:26Rachel Cruze?

  Too late for that game.

• 13:27George Kamel?

  In another planet, I'd probably be like leasing a Tesla or something because I'm just like, I like to. It's like leasing an iPhone.

• 13:33Rachel Cruze?

  You would pick a Tesla? You would pick a Tesla, though? That would be it?

• 13:37George Kamel?

  You're saying it with judgment.

• 13:38Rachel Cruze?

  No, I mean, I like Teslas.

• 13:40George Kamel?

  I don't know. I just feel like a luxury car. It's got too many bells and whistles for me.

• 13:44Rachel Cruze?

  Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

• 13:46George Kamel?

  It's stressful. I can't even figure out my wife's SUV. There's so many buttons everywhere and I just want it to have an iPad.

• 13:52Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah.

• 13:52George Kamel?

  Does it all for me.

• 13:52Rachel Cruze?

  Do you know the new, brand new cars have the like screen that goes all the way across? Have you seen that?

• 13:57George Kamel?

  Oh, yeah. That's fancy.

• 13:59Rachel Cruze?

  Fancy schmancy.

• 14:00George Kamel?

  Why do I need a screen that goes all the way across? I don't know.

• 14:02Rachel Cruze?

  We don't know.

• 14:02George Kamel?

  What am I doing looking way over there?

• 14:04Rachel Cruze?

  But that is, that's what the, that's what's happening now in technology. So fun. All right.

• 14:09George Kamel?

  I need a Pepto Bismol after that.

• 14:11Rachel Cruze?

  Do you?

• 14:12George Kamel?

  It's getting stressful.

• 14:13Rachel Cruze?

  You need that and a glass of milk and your Cozy Earth blanket.

• 14:16George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 14:16Rachel Cruze?

  Like we talked about earlier because Cozy Earth, their products, oh my gosh, could you imagine?

• 14:22George Kamel?

  Pairs very well with a cocktail, anything from Cozy Earth.

• 14:24Rachel Cruze?

  And with a G-Wagon, you know?

• 14:26George Kamel?

  Cozy, bougie, beautiful cover.

• 14:28Rachel Cruze?

  But honestly, Cozy Earth products, the quality is as good as a G-Wagon, let's be honest. But it is amazing, like all the fit from all the clothes, spot on, their bedding, their sheets, all of it. Incredible. The blankets, by far the best.

• 14:43George Kamel?

  To die for.

• 14:44Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 14:45George Kamel?

  And it makes the best gift. There's a lot of people I love in my life and it's hard to shop for them. But then I go, bet they don't have a Cozy Earth PJ set in navy.

• 14:55Rachel Cruze?

  And in that color, periwinkle. Uh huh. No, it's great, though. The, the, the products are incredible. And they're giving our listeners an incredible discount.

• 15:04George Kamel?

  Up to 40% off when you go to cozylearth.com/smartmoney and use the promo code SMARTMONEY at checkout. I think people will only love you more if you give them the gift of everyday luxury.

• 15:15Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, absolutely. So enjoy your athleisure, enjoy your bedding and enjoy it all at Cozy Earth.

• 15:22George Kamel?

  Oh, and by the way, you got to place the order by December 12th to. Get the deal for guaranteed Christmas delivery. Don't be that person where it shows up on the 27th. They've already forgotten about you. Okay, make sure it arrives on time. Order by the 12th. Up to 40% off cozylearth.com/smartmoney or use the link in the show notes.

• 15:40Rachel Cruze?

  All right. Next up, George, credit cards.

• 15:43George Kamel?

  Oh, boy. I'm gonna let you take this one.

• 15:45Rachel Cruze?

  I'll play devil's advocate for this one.

• 15:46George Kamel?

  This is a fun one.

• 15:47Rachel Cruze?

  Okay, so what's Ramsey's take with credit cards?

• 15:49George Kamel?

  The take is that debt is a slippery slope. And it's virtually impossible to go into debt when you use your own money. Because that money worn out, but the credit card company will always be happy to give you a bigger line of credit. At 27% APR, something ridiculous. We're now, you know, well over a trillion dollars in credit card debt as a nation. And I think it's a bad habit and you get coaxed into it with all these rewards. And miles and points and I can build my credit score and fraud protection, blah, blah, blah. I don't think it's worth it. I think you do way better to build wealth with your own money than borrowing someone else's. End scene.

• 16:26Rachel Cruze?

  No, but seriously, we travel all the time and getting the airline miles and the points. And to get to go to all the lounges in the airports. It is the best. You literally what you pay in a fee to have that credit card. You make up with with your like three glasses of champagne. In the in the lounge when you travel, you're done. So it is, but it is worth it because I'm gonna be spending the money anyways. And I only use it on bills, like things where like electricity, water, things we're already gonna buy gas for our cars.

• 16:58Rachel Cruze?

  So it's already gonna be going out of our house and of our accounts. So I might as well get a reward for it and use the rewards. So I'm actually beating the credit card company because I pay it off every month. And so I don't pay interest.

• 17:11George Kamel?

  You're finessing the system, as they would say.

• 17:13Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 17:14George Kamel?

  How much have you spent on that credit card in a given year?

• 17:17Rachel Cruze?

  A year?

• 17:18George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Rachel Cruze?

  Trying to think household, but I mean, let's go like, I don't know. $24,000?

• 17:23George Kamel?

  24,000. Okay, so two random months is what's going on these cards?

• 17:27Rachel Cruze?

  Food, gas, everything, yeah.

• 17:29George Kamel?

  And what's the total amount of cash value and rewards you've gotten in that year?

• 17:34Rachel Cruze?

  You know, George, I haven't really looked it up. I just know we got a

• 17:36George Kamel?

  So you just assume that you're winning?

• 17:38Rachel Cruze?

  Four free flights.

• 17:38George Kamel?

  Okay.

• 17:40Rachel Cruze?

  Four free flights. 16 free flights.

• 17:44George Kamel?

  16 flights on 24 grand a year.

• 17:47Rachel Cruze?

  Thirty-nine flights? I don't know how many.

• 17:50George Kamel?

  Next question, Your Honor.

• 17:51Rachel Cruze?

  I don't know how many flights.

• 17:54George Kamel?

  Now, the question is, and this is hypothetical.

• 17:56Rachel Cruze?

  And I get cash back.

• 17:57George Kamel?

  If it was your own money.

• 17:58Rachel Cruze?

  And I get cash back.

• 18:00George Kamel?

  Okay, so you get your 2% cash back.

• 18:02Rachel Cruze?

  Yep, yep.

• 18:03George Kamel?

  Which on $24,000 gets you, you know, some Christmas money, I guess?

• 18:07Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, yeah, Christmas was actually brought to you by MasterCard.

• 18:11George Kamel?

  Oh, nice.

• 18:12Rachel Cruze?

  And my cash back.

• 18:12George Kamel?

  I'm guessing you put that on the card as well.

• 18:14Rachel Cruze?

  I did, actually, so I'm double-dipping, as they say.

• 18:18George Kamel?

  The old double-dipper.

• 18:19Rachel Cruze?

  It's a little, yeah, right here.

• 18:21George Kamel?

  Okay, will you do an experiment for me?

• 18:22Rachel Cruze?

  Not just a hat rock, my friend. Sure.

• 18:24George Kamel?

  Will you just use your own money?

• 18:26Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 18:26George Kamel?

  For one year and see if you spend less than that $24,000?

• 18:29Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, because you think, subconsciously, I'm spending more because I'm spending other people's money and getting rewards for it, George? Is that what you're saying?

• 18:34George Kamel?

  Let's say you spend 20 instead of 24. Well, that's a $4,000 reward you gave yourself.

• 18:39Rachel Cruze?

  No.

• 18:40George Kamel?

  By being more conscious of your spending.

• 18:41Rachel Cruze?

  But I didn't get those four flights.

• 18:44George Kamel?

  What if you just saved up and paid for your flights, like a normal adult?

• 18:48Rachel Cruze?

  Because we're going to be traveling anyways.

• 18:50George Kamel?

  But then you might be stuck to a certain airline or a certain time. You don't have the flexibility to actually do your research and get the best deal. You're beholden to whatever the credit card companies will give you.

• 19:01Rachel Cruze?

  Is that true?

• 19:02George Kamel?

  And where are these rewards coming from, Rachel? Someone's paying for them.

• 19:05Rachel Cruze?

  The credit card companies.

• 19:07George Kamel?

  There's, where are they getting that money?

• 19:10Rachel Cruze?

  They make a lot of money off of people.

• 19:12George Kamel?

  Who are not paying their bills, struggling, paycheck to paycheck, you would say. Wow, that's gotta feel icky inside.

• 19:21Rachel Cruze?

  Kind of like this milk.

• 19:22George Kamel?

  And you said you're paying bills with that card? You know they add an extra 3% on top of the bill amount for a credit card?

• 19:28Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, but our, it's so nice when we get to fly and not to pay for those flights, George.

• 19:32George Kamel?

  I'm just saying, we gotta account for all the fees you are paying on top of the annual fee, which is $795, if you have the card I'm thinking of.

• 19:39Rachel Cruze?

  Uh, you probably, I probably do have that card because it's a very nice card. We spend a lot of money on it.

• 19:44George Kamel?

  And is it made of titanium? Are you impressed by the card?

• 19:47Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 19:47George Kamel?

  Every time you pull it out, do you feel like, I've made it?

• 19:49Rachel Cruze?

  I think, wow, she must have a lot of money.

• 19:54George Kamel?

  I'm glad that's the image you're trying to put forward. It's exhausting.

• 19:58Rachel Cruze?

  Man, I want to win one of these. I feel like you're a...

• 20:01George Kamel?

  I'm a trial lawyer here.

• 20:02Rachel Cruze?

  I was gonna say, it's pretty good.

• 20:04George Kamel?

  No, that is, that is good.

• 20:05Rachel Cruze?

  Scene.

• 20:05George Kamel?

  But here's the thing.

• 20:06Rachel Cruze?

  Scene.

• 20:06George Kamel?

  Yes, thank you for playing devil's advocate.

• 20:08Rachel Cruze?

  I don't know how many flights can you get if you've spent $24,000 on a credit card?

• 20:12George Kamel?

  Unlimited, if you ask most people. There's like, I never pay for a flight.

• 20:16Rachel Cruze?

  But granted, how many trips are people really going on realistically a year?

• 20:19George Kamel?

  Two.

• 20:20Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah.

• 20:20George Kamel?

  They went to Boise. And they're bragging about it. No, but I get it. There is a truth to this, that if you play the credit card game perfectly, are there rewards to be had? Sure. But what is it really costing you? The mental gymnastics of... I met, I met someone who has 16 cards.

• 20:37Rachel Cruze?

  Oh my gosh.

• 20:38George Kamel?

  And they just spent like half of their day trying to figure out what card would maximize the reward based on where they were at.

• 20:43Rachel Cruze?

  It's the brain calories for me. Not worth it.

• 20:45George Kamel?

  So there's that.

• 20:46Rachel Cruze?

  Can I tell you too, I think one of the biggest benefits is, besides not going deep in credit card debt, which everyone's like, I pay mine off every month, and then we talk to people on the show all the time. And in sad situations, like people aren't wanting to rack up credit card, right? I mean, like, it is a lot of situations where they...

• 21:00George Kamel?

  Nobody opens it thinking, I'll carry a balance month to month.

• 21:03Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, not, right, right. But I like the idea of not getting a bill. I like paying for something. Like, we went to a nice dinner last night with some friends. And I'm done. Like, and I think we were the only ones, you know, maybe that probably used a debit card, I don't know.

• 21:17Rachel Cruze?

  But I'm like, I just like that. I'm like, I'll never...

• 21:18George Kamel?

  Everyone else said, put it on my tab. And you went, no, I don't want a tab. No, thank you.

• 21:22Rachel Cruze?

  No, I just, I don't know. I like the idea that it's done. It's not coming back to me at all.

• 21:26George Kamel?

  Out of sight, out of mind.

• 21:27Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 21:27George Kamel?

  It's in the past.

• 21:28Rachel Cruze?

  Yes. Because it's already done. The food's eaten, experience is done, and we need to pay for something later.

• 21:33George Kamel?

  That is weird. Because like, your body digested that, and then it's exited out of your body, and you're still paying for it.

• 21:39Rachel Cruze?

  That's it. It's true, George. It's true.

• 21:41George Kamel?

  Hate to be gross.

• 21:42Rachel Cruze?

  Hate to be that person.

• 21:44George Kamel?

  All right, that was a fun one.

• 21:45Rachel Cruze?

  Okay. Uh, should we do another one?

• 21:47George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 21:48Rachel Cruze?

  All right, ready? Shared bank accounts after marriage. Okay, so Ramsey's take on this is that when you get married, you are one in every aspect of your life, including your money. So together, you are working together, banking together, everything is together. And so when you both make an income, or one of you makes an income, it goes to the household to be shared and to be used, not just to that individual person who made that specific money. So. That's our take. Uh, and it creates a lot of intimacy and much of a healthier relationship and unity in marriage. That I think spills over to other areas. That's Ramsey's take. Devil.

• 22:32George Kamel?

  I'm playing devil's advocate.

• 22:33Rachel Cruze?

  Devil's advocate.

• 22:34George Kamel?

  So I have to pretend to be a big proponent of separate bank accounts.

• 22:37Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, go.

• 22:41George Kamel?

  Hi, Rachel.

• 22:42Rachel Cruze?

  Hello, sir.

• 22:43George Kamel?

  Uh, my wife and I, in this wild example, we, we don't have a joint bank account. I mean, we pay bills out of an account, you know, but like my paycheck goes to my account. Her paycheck goes to her account and then we just split bills. What's the big deal?

• 22:56Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 22:57George Kamel?

  Our marriage is great.

• 22:58Rachel Cruze?

  Do you feel like thriving? Is it weird you have Venmo each other?

• 23:02George Kamel?

  Occasionally just to settle up, but who cares?

• 23:05Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah. I mean, do you honestly though, feel like, oh yeah, we are in this all together as a team. The unity is there because I think what's happening, and you don't even probably realize it subconsciously, that there is a, a level of that separation because money does create something in us. And it, it's probably a level of vulnerability for sure to like, say, oh my gosh, I'm going to share my life with you and my money. But in that unity and the, and functioning that together, you're not only going to build wealth faster, but also, I mean, studies show that marriages actually have a higher levels of happiness and joy when they are united financially.

• 23:44George Kamel?

  Wow. That's a lot to think about. I would say though, I am vulnerable in my marriage. Like just the other night, I cried while we watched Dancing with the Stars at Danielle Fisher's performance. I would say we have a lot of intimacy, vulnerability. We're shared in our, in our goals. We both love Dancing with the Stars.

• 24:05George Kamel?

  And we're doing fine financially. All the bills are getting paid. Like we're investing, we're doing all the right things, but we just have our independence still. I'm not codependent where I need each other to have a joint account.

• 24:16Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, and that's codependency for you.

• 24:18George Kamel?

  Yeah, I just feel like we don't, you know, not everything has to be ours.

• 24:22Rachel Cruze?

  Shared together.

• 24:22George Kamel?

  I can still be a person and spend my money how I want to spend it.

• 24:25Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, you can. And you can do the same if you have a joint account and you guys are spending out of the same account. Because what if one day she, what if she's not making a lot? And you're making more, who picks up dinner? Do you split it 50 50?

• 24:36George Kamel?

  She'll get an allowance and if she chooses to use that on dinner, she can do that.

• 24:42George Kamel?

  That's, I think that's fair. You know what I mean?

• 24:45Rachel Cruze?

  Just like, you're just like equalizing everything.

• 24:47George Kamel?

  Yeah, she's still bringing something to this, to this marriage. It just may not be.

• 24:50Rachel Cruze?

  But she does, so does she pay like a percentage of the bills that she brings in?

• 24:54George Kamel?

  Yeah, we just go, all right, I make a hundred, you make fifty, so I'll, I'll cover seventy-five percent, you cover twenty-five percent. You know, we just switch up the percentages.

• 25:01Rachel Cruze?

  Okay. Uh, financially, your goals, what are y'all doing? Are you guys working, are you?

• 25:05George Kamel?

  We're going on vacations.

• 25:06Rachel Cruze?

  Who pays for those?

• 25:08George Kamel?

  Uh, we'll kind of split it, we'll kind of put it on the card and just make payments and...

• 25:12Rachel Cruze?

  And just go fifty-fifty on it?

• 25:14George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 25:14Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah. And you're good with it?

• 25:15George Kamel?

  It's worked out so far.

• 25:16Rachel Cruze?

  Okay, see, this is what's hard to debate, is like apathy.

• 25:20George Kamel?

  It's fine.

• 25:21Rachel Cruze?

  All right, well, if that, if that's working for you.

• 25:23George Kamel?

  I'm representing the average American here.

• 25:24Rachel Cruze?

  You can, uh...

• 25:24George Kamel?

  We're doing fine. Here's your assumption, Rachel, that our marriage is suffering because we don't have a joint account.

• 25:31Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, and I would say, and that's the thing, is that it's not on the surface, a level of, oh, right here. But what it does create is this avenue where you're living basically two different lives, financially speaking. And then not only can financial infidelity start to creep in, where you're spending money and you don't have to tell her.

• 25:49George Kamel?

  I did some sports betting the other day.

• 25:50Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, there is like that, that level of secrecy, right? You start to do this, and then you look up and you're like, oh my gosh, if we had joined everything, not only from an investing standpoint, could we have been so much further along financially? But also, it does creep in to your marriage, it does. And, and to be able to say, okay, that we are truly living two separate lives in this area, that is so important, that could be so uniting. And so, it is hard when you're not one team in marriage, even though you decided to marry and give your life to this other person. You get to keep yours on one side, so how selfish of you. It's great.

• 26:24George Kamel?

  Wow, you just convinced me to get a joint account.

• 26:26Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 26:27George Kamel?

  End scene.

• 26:28Rachel Cruze?

  Name-calling you. That's what I did at the end.

• 26:31George Kamel?

  Man, that was stressful.

• 26:32Rachel Cruze?

  You're good, George, you're, you should be in a chime.

• 26:35George Kamel?

  Maniacal. No, that is, that is one of the toughest ones, because it's, you can't convince someone that their marriage would be better if they did this a different way. And it's, it goes beyond just the money, because there is this level of like, you can put a line item in your budget for Rachel's fun money and Winston's fun money, why do you need? This other account.

• 26:52Rachel Cruze?

  Right, cuz it's.

• 26:53George Kamel?

  You dig down, it's a level of distrust, a level, maybe there's some selfishness, maybe there's something you're hiding.

• 26:58Rachel Cruze?

  Well, and there's like an autonomy thing too, I think that people feel when they get married of like, oh, I don't want to lose who I am. And my money is a level of my worth and my income.

• 27:08George Kamel?

  And I work hard for it.

• 27:09Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, and if you take that from me, and so again, what that does over time, I do, I do think it erodes. What the purity of marriage is supposed to be, and when you go all in with someone, and again, from a financial perspective, I'm like. There is, there is something just to be said of like, I'm laying everything out and I trust you fully, you trust me and we're, we're the same, we're the same team. Instead of like, kind of battling against each other and keeping, keeping it separate. It's just that, it's a, it's a.

• 27:35George Kamel?

  Yeah, that transparency and accountability, I, I think creates a better marriage long term. Now there are couples who go. We've been married for 24 years and we've always had our separate accounts and it's fine. Maybe it is, and I'm glad you guys are still together, but you don't know what could have been and what would be.

• 27:50Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 27:50George Kamel?

  If you fully combined everything.

• 27:52Rachel Cruze?

  Well, and I have found, at least in our marriage, it's the subjects that you're like, oh, if we can get a quick fix and not have to fight about this. You just do that and I'll just do this. You actually put like a terrible like little Band-Aid over an issue that actually could have caused you guys to go deeper. To know each other more, to have that level of connection and you don't get that opportunity at all when you just avoid the hard subjects. And I think a lot of people do that with money, that like we fight about it, so just go separate and we just won't worry about it. And that's a, it's a, yeah, you're choosing not to live in a certain vulnerability when you do that. In, in any issue in marriage, including money, but hot topic.

• 28:32George Kamel?

  That's fair. I think, here's my hot take, I think you should have to sleep in separate twin beds until you have a joint account.

• 28:40George Kamel?

  What's the difference? I want my independence on the mattress, alright?

• 28:44Rachel Cruze?

  Give me my own space.

• 28:46George Kamel?

  No little spoon for you, bud.

• 28:47Rachel Cruze?

  Give me, no little spoon, what does that mean?

• 28:52George Kamel?

  Do you, you've never heard of spooning?

• 28:53Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, spooning, yes.

• 28:55George Kamel?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Rachel Cruze?

  But little spoon.

• 28:56George Kamel?

  Little spoon, big spoon.

• 28:58Rachel Cruze?

  If you're the little.

• 28:58George Kamel?

  Big spoon's on the outside.

• 28:59Rachel Cruze?

  Funny.

• 29:00George Kamel?

  Little spoon's on the inside.

• 29:01Rachel Cruze?

  I hear ya.

• 29:02George Kamel?

  It's like Winston prefers to be little spoon famously.

• 29:07Rachel Cruze?

  No, I don't think so.

• 29:08George Kamel?

  Winston's never gonna hear this.

• 29:12Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, man.

• 29:13George Kamel?

  It's a fun visual.

• 29:14Rachel Cruze?

  That was...

• 29:15George Kamel?

  Winston being cradled.

• 29:17Rachel Cruze?

  By me, just...

• 29:19George Kamel?

  Oh, that's great.

• 29:20Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 29:21George Kamel?

  That was a fun one. How fun.

• 29:23Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, I'm just surprised. I can't, I can't break you, George. I just... You're not to be rattled.

• 29:29George Kamel?

  I have an unbreakable spirit.

• 29:30Rachel Cruze?

  You are not to be rattled.

• 29:31George Kamel?

  I'm honestly terrible at debates.

• 29:33Rachel Cruze?

  No, are you kidding? I feel like you did fantastic.

• 29:35George Kamel?

  Thank you. I think you're doing a great job. I'm really, I'm throwing some curveballs at you here.

• 29:39Rachel Cruze?

  I appreciate it, yeah.

• 29:41George Kamel?

  That's a sports reference.

• 29:42Rachel Cruze?

  Thank... And, and a scammer reference. Yeah, but you know what? You can avoid for scammers and spammers. Delete Me.

• 29:53George Kamel?

  No curveballs there. I avoid the curveballs of the internet.

• 29:55Rachel Cruze?

  You know exactly what you're getting. The pitch is right down the line with Delete Me because you know they are gonna remove your data from data broker websites that actually end up selling your data. And that puts you at risk for robocalls and text spam and all of it, right? They remove it and that's what we love.

• 30:15George Kamel?

  They hit it out of the park. They have data privacy experts that work behind the scenes all year long to find this information online and then remove it. And they'll send you a report showing you what they've done, what they removed, how much time it saved you. And it gives me great joy and peace of mind whenever I see that new report come in. And in my heart, not out loud, I say, "Thanks, Delete Me."

• 30:33Rachel Cruze?

  Thanks, Delete Me, yeah. They will never strike you out of a game because the game of life is expensive and we have to hold our data closely because our names and addresses and kids' names and all of it is out there. And when it is gone and erased, we say, "Safe."

• 30:50George Kamel?

  Wow, that was actually, you landed the plane beautifully on that analogy.

• 30:54Rachel Cruze?

  Thank you.

• 30:54George Kamel?

  And for that, I think they should all go to joindelete.me.com/smartmoney because they'll get 20% off their annual plans. So, check it out. We'll put a link in the show notes as well. That's joindelete.me.com/smartmoney. Play ball.

• 31:12George Kamel?

  No one's list, they tuned out.

• 31:13Rachel Cruze?

  We got like, we got like six baseball references.

• 31:15George Kamel?

  They're either angry at that or impressed. There's no in-between.

• 31:17Rachel Cruze?

  I know. I hope they love it. I hope they love it. We will see.

• 31:21George Kamel?

  All right.

• 31:22Rachel Cruze?

  Um, all right, George. Next up, we got tithing.

• 31:27George Kamel?

  This is controversial?

• 31:28Rachel Cruze?

  Wow.

• 31:29George Kamel?

  Wow. Okay.

• 31:30Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, and I'm, and I'm gonna be playing devil's advocate over here.

• 31:33George Kamel?

  Here's the Ramsey take on tithing. If you are a person of faith, those are the people, that's why we call it the tithe, that's biblical, and we say that's 10% of your income. Now gross or net, you, you can decide. We think you're gonna get into heaven either way. But we think that prioritizing generosity changes you from the inside out. It'll make money feel less stressful, it'll make money more joyful when you live life with an open hand, when you put giving first. And my friend Rachel Cruz has this great quote, "Give a little until you can give a lot." So just be generous with what you have, and when you have more, you'll give even more. And if you're not religious, you can still use your money to do good in the world by giving to organizations, to specific people in need. It's just a beautiful thing to be generous. What do you have against generosity, Rachel?

• 32:16Rachel Cruze?

  Devil's advocate. Well, I'm paying off debt and trying to get myself in a place where I can actually not have to live paycheck to paycheck, because, I mean, we barely, and we get maybe $120 extra per month in margin, and then my husband works two extra jobs, and we are trying to get out of debt as quickly as possible. And so the fact that we have to take some of that money and give it away, like, we just, we're not in a space to do that right now.

• 32:46George Kamel?

  That's, that's tough to argue with, Rachel. I would say-

• 32:49Rachel Cruze?

  I have three kids at home.

• 32:50George Kamel?

  Three kids?

• 32:51Rachel Cruze?

  Very hard.

• 32:52George Kamel?

  Oh my goodness. How old's the youngest?

• 32:57Rachel Cruze?

  Eight days.

• 32:58George Kamel?

  Eight days? Oh my goodness. Wow. Well, hey, you know what? Can I, do you have a meal train link? I'd love to bring you guys a meal, just out of generosity.

• 33:07Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, that's very nice of you.

• 33:08George Kamel?

  I think I should go first and be generous.

• 33:10Rachel Cruze?

  Very nice. But yeah, um, yeah, I just, we don't have any room to give right now. But our hope is that someday we will.

• 33:18George Kamel?

  Do you think that, uh, you know, God would, would bless your generosity if you just gave what you could? Cause it's a matter of the heart. It's not about a certain-

• 33:25Rachel Cruze?

  That's how prosperity got, no, whoa, whoa.

• 33:27George Kamel?

  Oh, you're not gonna get more money?

• 33:28Rachel Cruze?

  Oh yeah, slow that down.

• 33:29George Kamel?

  Here's what I'm saying. Do you think it would change your spirit if you were just able to give as much as you felt able to?

• 33:37Rachel Cruze?

  It would change it to, uh, stress and anxiety.

• 33:39George Kamel?

  Wow.

• 33:41George Kamel?

  That's tough. Can I pray for you guys?

• 33:46Rachel Cruze?

  That was pretty good.

• 33:46George Kamel?

  Yeah, this is, well, this is one of the tougher ones.

• 33:48Rachel Cruze?

  That's a hard one.

• 33:49George Kamel?

  It's especially hard. Here's the other thing. If you're not a religious person, you think the tithe is some sort of like culty scam.

• 33:56Rachel Cruze?

  Sure. Especially giving to a church. Yes.

• 33:58George Kamel?

  What are they doing with it? You know, there's a lot of cynicism towards how the church handles money.

• 34:03Rachel Cruze?

  And people of faith should have levels of question of what their church is doing with money, too. So it's just not non-religious people.

• 34:11George Kamel?

  That's a whole nother thing of your tithing. Where is the money going?

• 34:14Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 34:15George Kamel?

  Is it going to pay off debts that you wish they didn't take on?

• 34:18Rachel Cruze?

  That is hard.

• 34:19George Kamel?

  That's a hot take.

• 34:19Rachel Cruze?

  That's hard. If your church has debt and it's like going to Bank of America to build another bill, their own bill, you know what I'm saying? You're like, oh, man, that feels, that feels off.

• 34:29George Kamel?

  That is a tough one.

• 34:30Rachel Cruze?

  Yep.

• 34:31George Kamel?

  Yeah, you win that one.

• 34:31Rachel Cruze?

  I will say, this is one topic I don't like to be legalistic on.

• 34:35George Kamel?

  Yeah, it felt weird for me to be like, well, Rachel, you should do it anyways because it's the law.

• 34:40Rachel Cruze?

  I know. I know. Right.

• 34:41George Kamel?

  The letter of the law.

• 34:42Rachel Cruze?

  And so I think, yeah, there's a reality to life and this is not one of these, you know, I think we kind of have a hard and fast rule for it at Ramsey and I kind of like that. I kind of like having a stance and then your own personal situation and conviction, you can decide what you want to do with this topic.

• 34:58George Kamel?

  Yeah, I would never judge someone for not doing it.

• 35:00Rachel Cruze?

  No, no, no, no. But I think there is something to be said overall when you live life with an open hands, that it does, it does change you and it changes you over time. And I think it just makes you, when you want to win with money and you want to do well with money, it just doesn't become all about you because that starts to be empty really fast. So that, I don't know, there is something it's great about. And again, wherever you want to give, I think is great, too. So you get to decide. But yes, if you are a, I would say, yes, a Christian and you're in church, I think helping your local church is a beautiful thing. But also the least of these, you know, I mean, I think it's, it's a big deal what we're called to. And I think that's a great part of humanity when you're giving. That's why our, I think we, and we go to the same church, they actually give a portion of the tithe to the community.

• 35:45Rachel Cruze?

  Like they tithe on the tithe kind of thing.

• 35:47George Kamel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:48Rachel Cruze?

  And they have like 10 different organizations around Nashville that they Give to, which I love. I'm like, that's, I think that's amazing.

• 35:52George Kamel?

  And that is something I do look into like, what is the church's, I like when they're transparent about what they're doing, why they're doing it. And our church had a whole thing where they, they wanted to become debt free and pay off the mortgage aggressively. And they did it in a year.

• 36:04Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah.

• 36:05George Kamel?

  And I, I like knowing that like the money now is just going to fund the new stuff, not to pay for the old stuff.

• 36:11Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, totally. Yep.

• 36:12George Kamel?

  That's not a, that's not a, you know, if your church has debt, I'm not saying leave. We did get that question before. The church was about to take on debt.

• 36:18Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:19George Kamel?

  And he was like, should I stay? I was like, if it's gonna affect, if it's gonna eat you alive, I don't think you should stay.

• 36:24Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, right, right. If, yeah, if any issue of the church happens and you're like, I can't keep doing this, then yeah.

• 36:29George Kamel?

  If you don't trust the leadership, get out of there. But I don't think they're evil either for, for doing that. All right, next up.

• 36:37George Kamel?

  Paying down low interest debt.

• 36:40Rachel Cruze?

  Ooh, okay. So you want to be devil's advocate on this one?

• 36:44George Kamel?

  I guess so.

• 36:45Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 36:46George Kamel?

  I have to defend why I'm not gonna pay down my low interest debt.

• 36:50Rachel Cruze?

  That's right.

• 36:51George Kamel?

  I'm gonna hang on to the debt.

• 36:52Rachel Cruze?

  Hang on to the debt.

• 36:53George Kamel?

  Okay, what is the Ramsey stance on this?

• 36:55Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, so we would say for sure, getting out of all debt is necessary regardless of the interest rates. And as you're paying off debt, you actually want to pay off the lowest amount of debt versus the lowest interest rate. And so when you are completely debt free and there are, there are no payments, you get to use your whole income for you and your family and to give and to save and do everything we're talking about. So, yeah, there's power in having no debt, even if the interest on the debt is small.

• 37:26George Kamel?

  Okay, now here's the situation. I have student loans and I have a really low interest rate. It's 3.2%. And I have the money, I could pay it off, but I'm making 4% in my high yield savings account right now. So why would I pay that off?

• 37:43Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, so that's a debate, a mathematical debate we hear a lot and not usually even about low interest debt, but sometimes mortgages and even recent mortgages, you know, 8%. But what's interesting is when you actually factor in when you are debt free mathematically, how much faster you start to build wealth and then also the other effects of debt that are not in a spreadsheet, but your stress, your anxiety, when you owe someone something, it changes your decisions in life. And so even though you don't feel like it's a big deal and you, and you even have the money to pay it off.

• 38:15George Kamel?

  Yeah, I can pay it off. I'm doing fine.

• 38:17Rachel Cruze?

  Yep. So I would tell you just pay it off. And if you hate being debt free, you can go get a low interest personal loan if you want.

• 38:25George Kamel?

  Well, I mean, I'm not going to be 3%. That's a pretty crazy good low rate.

• 38:29Rachel Cruze?

  It is low, but over time, I think it's not about the math. I think it's about your, the position of what you're choosing to live with your money. If you're choosing to live in debt, the borrower is slave to the lender. And over time, when you owe someone money, paycheck after paycheck, there is something to be said about, um, yeah, those payments going out.

• 38:49George Kamel?

  You clearly don't understand arbitrage, Rachel, and it shows.

• 38:53Rachel Cruze?

  Arbitrage?

• 38:54George Kamel?

  I'm finessing the system. I'm making a spread.

• 38:58Rachel Cruze?

  You're making a spread and everything's fine.

• 38:59George Kamel?

  Yep.

• 39:00Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah.

• 39:00George Kamel?

  And I did a parlay and won.

• 39:02Rachel Cruze?

  Until you.

• 39:03George Kamel?

  On FanDuel.

• 39:04Rachel Cruze?

  Until, oh gosh.

• 39:05George Kamel?

  Against the Rams.

• 39:06Rachel Cruze?

  Going all the way.

• 39:07George Kamel?

  I don't know what any of that meant, but it sounded right.

• 39:09Rachel Cruze?

  And the sports betting, he's winning.

• 39:11George Kamel?

  Can you do, is that what I, did I say it correctly? Okay, I got a thumbs up.

• 39:16Rachel Cruze?

  He got it.

• 39:17George Kamel?

  From a sports guy back there.

• 39:18Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, that was hard. That was hard. And you know, when you talk about debt, usually you're talking about banks that have debt available. So to bank with a financial institution that actually is for you, not against you, would be magic.

• 39:35George Kamel?

  Those exist?

• 39:36Rachel Cruze?

  Yes. And it's called Fair Winds Credit Union. They are the most incredible credit union because not only do they encourage you through the Ramsey baby steps and they want you to be financially free, like a bank wants you to do that. Isn't that crazy? But they also have a great bundle for Ramsey listeners, the Smart Checking and Savings Bundle. So you get a checking account, a high yield savings account, and your own debit card.

• 40:00George Kamel?

  I've loved using the debit card.

• 40:02Rachel Cruze?

  Ramsey debit card.

• 40:03George Kamel?

  I flaunt it. I'm kind of like, read it.

• 40:05Rachel Cruze?

  Here it is.

• 40:06George Kamel?

  What does it say?

• 40:07Rachel Cruze?

  Be weird.

• 40:09George Kamel?

  Debt is normal, be weird.

• 40:10Rachel Cruze?

  I love it. I know, but the be weird is big. So everyone's like, wait, what?

• 40:13George Kamel?

  They know. They know this is not a credit card at that point.

• 40:15Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, and it's great. I mean, we have shifted a lot of our money into our FairWinds checking. And so, and I've been using it all the time and I love it. It's so great.

• 40:24George Kamel?

  And they, because they watched my YouTube video, they went, you know what? We're gonna get rid of international fees on our debit cards.

• 40:30Rachel Cruze?

  Yes.

• 40:30George Kamel?

  We don't need those. Get rid of those. Let's do what's right for the people. And they just did it. That's how much they want to see you guys win. They're changing the way they do business to help our fans out and we love them for it. They're amazing people.

• 40:41Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah.

• 40:41George Kamel?

  An amazing credit union. Go check them out. Go to fairwins.org/Ramsey today to get that bundle. You're gonna get low fees, great rates, great high-yield savings account, all that good stuff. When you go to fairwins.org/Ramsey or use the link in the description.

• 40:55Rachel Cruze?

  We love it. Oh, man. What an episode, George.

• 40:59George Kamel?

  This was a sweaty one. It just made me uncomfortable.

• 41:01Rachel Cruze?

  This was like, yeah, it was much tougher.

• 41:03George Kamel?

  It was like, like going against your values and principles, even as a game, is weirdly difficult.

• 41:09Rachel Cruze?

  Yes, but you're a great debater. I found it hard to like, even though I debate with people, or not debate, but we talk about, we talk to people all the time on the Ramsey Show.

• 41:16George Kamel?

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:17Rachel Cruze?

  So I'm used to talking to another person.

• 41:18George Kamel?

  That's what was in my head.

• 41:19Rachel Cruze?

  But I think what was weird is if it's you talking, I'm always like, hey, George is...

• 41:22George Kamel?

  Evil George. What is he doing?

• 41:24Rachel Cruze?

  Evil devil advocate, George.

• 41:25George Kamel?

  What I did was channel all of the YouTube comments I've ever seen.

• 41:28Rachel Cruze?

  There you go, and into one.

• 41:30George Kamel?

  Well, he just doesn't understand. I'm like, dude, I understand reality. And the reality is, most people are broke, anxious, stressed. And if you can remove that by living debt-free, going against the grain, living counterculturally, why wouldn't you?

• 41:43Rachel Cruze?

  See, that's the key. That's what I think is a big deal, is if you are not happy with where you are financially. Like if you are, if you're just sitting there and you're like, I feel stressed, I feel like I'm making no progress. I don't like money. I don't like where I, if it's just a negative subject in your life, then do something different. Like, you have to do a complete 180. Do something totally different. And that's usually what Ramsey principles are these days. It's kind of this common sense approach to money. Of live on less than you make, don't take on debt, save up and pay for things, have an emergency fund. Like, again, it's like pretty common sense principles, but most people can't, won't, whatever you want to say, do it. Um, so that's what I would encourage you. If you're not happy with where you are financially, do something totally different.

• 42:26George Kamel?

  Hmm. This does feel like a little bit of that comfort crisis, kind of Michael Easter vibe of just, we're comfortable with the payments, we're comfortable with the low interest, we're comfortable having our own bank account. Everything's about us and our comfort. And I think having a little bit of discomfort for a season to get to a place where you're set financially, you're not stressed, you have a better marriage.

• 42:45Rachel Cruze?

  We're truly safe financially. Do you know what I mean?

• 42:48George Kamel?

  You don't owe people money. You've got money in the bank.

• 42:50Rachel Cruze?

  You have no risk. Yes, you have your own money there if you need it. So it's an amazing thing, you guys. Amazing thing.

• 42:57George Kamel?

  And if you need a place to start, the reason I was so good at Debate Club is because I wrote a book about this called Breaking Free From Broke, where I go through every objection I've heard. I break down this whole debt system.

• 43:07Rachel Cruze?

  It's a great book, y'all.

• 43:08George Kamel?

  A lot of stats. I just hit you where I know, I'm reading your mail in this book. So I hope it'll help you overcome some of the objections you might have when it comes to the Ramsey Principle. So you can check it out. It's called Breaking Free From Broke. There's also an audiobook. That's really fun as well.

• 43:20Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, and also check out Every Dollar. It's Ramsey's app that looks over your entire financial picture. So not just your monthly budget, which is so great at doing that, but also your whole financial roadmap. It's like where you are with everything, and it's walking you through the Ramsey way of doing money. And so it is so helpful. We'll put a link down below to make sure to check it out as well.

• 43:39George Kamel?

  A lot of goodies in the description today.

• 43:41Rachel Cruze?

  Oh my gosh, George.

• 43:43George Kamel?

  Whew. All right. I need a drink after that.

• 43:45Rachel Cruze?

  We need a drink. I know. What is, what's the milk again? The bourbon milk, what's it called?

• 43:50George Kamel?

  This is a bourbon milk punch.

• 43:51Rachel Cruze?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:52George Kamel?

  And I gotta say, it's the best bourbon milk punch I've had.

• 43:55Rachel Cruze?

  I think it's great.

• 43:56George Kamel?

  It is reminiscent of eggnog without the viscosity, the thickness, if you will.

• 44:00Rachel Cruze?

  Wow, yes. What a word.

• 44:01George Kamel?

  You know what I mean? Like, sometimes eggnog, you're like, that was...

• 44:04Rachel Cruze?

  I know. I want, I want to like eggnog.

• 44:07George Kamel?

  It can be, if it's made fresh, it hits.

• 44:10Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, really?

• 44:10George Kamel?

  But add up like a bottle, it's risky.

• 44:12Rachel Cruze?

  Or a carton.

• 44:13George Kamel?

  A carton?

• 44:14Rachel Cruze?

  Ooh, that's what, that's what I've done. That's my, that's my, or a jug.

• 44:19George Kamel?

  We were...

• 44:19Rachel Cruze?

  Jug of eggnog.

• 44:21George Kamel?

  Yeah, jug. Anything that's in mass quantity, you're amazing.

• 44:24Rachel Cruze?

  That's what I, that's what I've thought.

• 44:26George Kamel?

  I need it to be artisanal.

• 44:27Rachel Cruze?

  Where do you get fresh eggnog?

• 44:29George Kamel?

  You make it.

• 44:31Rachel Cruze?

  Wow.

• 44:33George Kamel?

  It has to be fresh.

• 44:34Rachel Cruze?

  How's, how's that process?

• 44:35George Kamel?

  I've never done it, but I, I like friends who would make it fresh.

• 44:38Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, that is very nice of them.

• 44:39George Kamel?

  Like Michael, Michael Reddish.

• 44:41Rachel Cruze?

  He made-

• 44:41George Kamel?

  Makes a great eggnog cocktail.

• 44:43Rachel Cruze?

  Seriously?

• 44:44George Kamel?

  Yes, like real ingredients.

• 44:45Rachel Cruze?

  And it's actually delicious. Man, we may need that next time.

• 44:47George Kamel?

  So shout out to Michael Reddish, by the way. This is his 100th cocktail he has made for us on Smarter Money Happy Hour. So-

• 44:54Rachel Cruze?

  I can't believe it.

• 44:55George Kamel?

  Thank you, Michael, for a lot of great drinks. A few bad ones in there, but mostly amazing cocktails made with love. We appreciate you, bud.

• 45:02Rachel Cruze?

  Michael, we appreciate you so much. So good. Okay, so what's in it? Or no, yeah, rate it. I'm going nine out of 10.

• 45:08George Kamel?

  Yeah, I'm going nine out of 10. I could not improve on it.

• 45:10Rachel Cruze?

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:11George Kamel?

  Now, I'm not a huge fan of dairy in my drinks, but this, this is the best one I've had. It's got bourbon, whole milk, simple syrup, vanilla extract, and nutmeg. Freshly grated, I might add. Cause Michael goes the extra mile.

• 45:24Rachel Cruze?

  He's a little ch-ch-ch-ch.

• 45:27George Kamel?

  He's back there doing that.

• 45:28Rachel Cruze?

  He's got just a little ch-ch-ch-ch.

• 45:29George Kamel?

  At his little bar.

• 45:30Rachel Cruze?

  With that eggnog.

• 45:31George Kamel?

  The total cost?

• 45:32Rachel Cruze?

  That nutmeg.

• 45:32George Kamel?

  $3.18.

• 45:34Rachel Cruze?

  Oh, it's a little pricey.

• 45:36George Kamel?

  Well, you know, that's what class will cost you these days, Rachel.

• 45:39Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, that's right. Now, debate that.

• 45:42George Kamel?

  No, it's a good one. Get the recipe in the show notes. Give it a try this weekend. If you're of age, it's a great seasonal drink to make.

• 45:49Rachel Cruze?

  All right, George, now it's time for Guilty as Charged. And this is where we ask each other a guilty as charged question every week, and if we're guilty, we take a sip. All right, George, question. Have you ever unintentionally broken the law? And were there financial consequences?

• 46:07George Kamel?

  Oh, wow.

• 46:09Rachel Cruze?

  Unintentionally broken the law.

• 46:11George Kamel?

  I'm trying to think of a time you would break the law, but then not know you broke the law.

• 46:15Rachel Cruze?

  You know what? That happened. Uh, that was me. That happened to me this summer.

• 46:20George Kamel?

  What'd you do?

• 46:20Rachel Cruze?

  Unintentionally. We were at my parents' lake house and we took the boat out to go tubing. And so we have like four tubes on the back of, you know, with all the kids.

• 46:32George Kamel?

  Oh, yeah, I've been on that thing. That's, that's risky.

• 46:34Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, you've been to the lake house. Yeah. And so we have a no wake zone, which means there's like a loading dock where people put boats in and out. So they, they put buoys around it. So people don't fly through and create wake and waves. And it gets hard for people to look.

• 46:48George Kamel?

  Rocking the boats around.

• 46:49Rachel Cruze?

  So yeah, so there's always a no wake zone, which means you gotta just like.

• 46:53George Kamel?

  It's like a school zone.

• 46:55Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah. Great way of putting it. Great way of putting it. And if we have tubes, the kids are on the tubes through the no wake zone. But we just slowly go.

• 47:02George Kamel?

  Just go slow through the wake zone with the tubes.

• 47:03Rachel Cruze?

  So, uh, we see a boat going.

• 47:08George Kamel?

  Siren on top?

• 47:09Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, a little light. And the, the sheriff, the lake sheriff, sheriff of the county, I don't know, whatever the came. Yes. Pull this over.

• 47:21George Kamel?

  How do you get pulled over in a boat?

• 47:22Rachel Cruze?

  I mean, they just come up, kind of like anchor to you and they were like, uh, yeah, you're gonna be fine. Cause you can't have, you can't have objects or people outside the boat during, through a no wake zone. It's like, you can't have the tubes out. You have to pull the tubes in. And I'm like, what? We have.

• 47:41George Kamel?

  That's a law.

• 47:42Rachel Cruze?

  Never. My mom and dad bought the lake house.

• 47:44George Kamel?

  They've been there for like decades.

• 47:46Rachel Cruze?

  It was right before September 11th, 2001, when they bought the lake house, which is crazy to remember. So y'all, it's been over, yeah, 24 years. For 24 years, never have we ever pulled in things from the back of the boat. I didn't even know, I genuinely didn't even know that was a law or a rule. And I was like, is that a new law? And they were like, no. I was like, oh my gosh, we've been breaking the law for 24 years.

• 48:08George Kamel?

  Can they retroactively find you?

• 48:10Rachel Cruze?

  I don't know. That'd be a lot. So anyways, then they asked for the, the title of the boat. Well, the tags were expired on the boat. So then we had to call dad and be like, oh, what do we do? Oh my gosh. And so he's like on speakerphone. He's like, well, just pay the bill, pay it, pay the ticket, you know? Well, none of us have a license.

• 48:32George Kamel?

  Oh, no.

• 48:33Rachel Cruze?

  Except for my sister-in-law, who wasn't even driving. And she ended up paying the, paying the ticket for us. So I think we were supposed to all Venmo her back. I'm not sure if we did, Allison. I'm not sure if we did.

• 48:45George Kamel?

  Sorry, Allison.

• 48:46Rachel Cruze?

  Sorry, Allison, Daniel.

• 48:47George Kamel?

  How much was it? What's a boat fine cost these days?

• 48:49Rachel Cruze?

  Maybe, maybe like 200 bucks. I don't know. Yeah, I know.

• 48:54George Kamel?

  The water popo busted you.

• 48:55Rachel Cruze?

  Who would have known? And then the funniest thing is when we got off the phone with dad, one of the sheriff guys was like, is this gonna be on the show tomorrow? And I was like, do you know who we are? Oh, my gosh.

• 49:05George Kamel?

  That's amazing.

• 49:06Rachel Cruze?

  So funny.

• 49:06George Kamel?

  He wouldn't waive it as a one-time, like, you guys have been out there for decades.

• 49:09Rachel Cruze?

  You kind of thought it'd be a little like, I'm debt-free.

• 49:11George Kamel?

  You know who Dave is.

• 49:12Rachel Cruze?

  Thank you, you know, and like, help us out.

• 49:14George Kamel?

  Just like, hey, don't let it happen again.

• 49:16Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, give me one of those.

• 49:17George Kamel?

  Be a cool sheriff on the water.

• 49:19Rachel Cruze?

  I know, one of those. But no, they were, they were ready to give a ticket.

• 49:22George Kamel?

  You guys weren't hunting game illegally. Like, just be cool, man.

• 49:26Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah, we were just taking some tubes through a no-wake zone, but yeah.

• 49:29George Kamel?

  That guy had to make his quota that day.

• 49:30Rachel Cruze?

  Hashtag. You know, I think that all the time. When I get a ticket where I'm like, they totally could have just let me off because it wasn't that big of a deal. Do they have quotas to meet?

• 49:37George Kamel?

  I think it's a real thing.

• 49:38Rachel Cruze?

  Tell us in the comments if you're a cop.

• 49:41George Kamel?

  If you're a cop, you have to legally tell us if you're a cop in the comments.

• 49:45Rachel Cruze?

  But I do want to know.

• 49:46George Kamel?

  Yeah, we did get, we got ambushed by police.

• 49:50Rachel Cruze?

  What?

• 49:50George Kamel?

  We were skateboarding in Charlestown, outside of Boston, at these great ledges they have.

• 49:56Rachel Cruze?

  How old were you?

• 49:56George Kamel?

  Famous ledges. Well, I was probably 15.

• 49:58Rachel Cruze?

  Okay.

• 49:58George Kamel?

  And they came out of the bushes, like a SWAT team.

• 50:01Rachel Cruze?

  Stop it.

• 50:01George Kamel?

  And they sort of just chasing us around. And if you're a skateboarder, you just start running, you know? And so I ran like the dickens and they ended up catching us all.

• 50:09Rachel Cruze?

  Did they like tackle you to the ground? Like, how did he catch you?

• 50:11George Kamel?

  No, I mean, they, I think they do maybe so with some grabbing. Because, you know, we're kids, we're fast. So they ended up, they didn't arrest us. What they did was they took our skateboards away. And they said, you can come to this precinct in the most dangerous part of Boston and pick it up after 10:00 PM.

• 50:29Rachel Cruze?

  What?

• 50:29George Kamel?

  That was our punishment.

• 50:30Rachel Cruze?

  Okay, why is it illegal to skateboard?

• 50:32George Kamel?

  Oh, you know, like no trespassing, no skate, they have like some no skateboarding signs.

• 50:37Rachel Cruze?

  Wow, it's Boston, a big skateboarding area.

• 50:40George Kamel?

  It was trespassing, maybe destruction of property because you're, you know, jumping up on the ledges and grinding on them and, you know.

• 50:45Rachel Cruze?

  Oh no, okay, sure.

• 50:47George Kamel?

  You know, we were kids skateboarding.

• 50:49Rachel Cruze?

  Yeah.

• 50:49George Kamel?

  We weren't doing drugs.

• 50:50Rachel Cruze?

  But you ran from the cops, George.

• 50:52George Kamel?

  Yeah, not the first time. When you're skateboarding in Boston, no, it happened, it happened pretty often in Boston. Security guards, you know, you're on private property, you're skateboarding, you see a security guard, you run. That's how it goes.

• 51:05Rachel Cruze?

  That is so funny.

• 51:06George Kamel?

  And usually you can outrun them, because no offense, they weren't in as good a shape as a 15-year-old skateboarder.

• 51:10Rachel Cruze?

  Totally, you just.

• 51:11George Kamel?

  You know?

• 51:12Rachel Cruze?

  Running a little hard out.

• 51:13George Kamel?

  It's like Paul Blart, mall cop, and you're running away.

• 51:15Rachel Cruze?

  Run, George, run.

• 51:16George Kamel?

  So yeah, that's probably unintentional. I'm not trying to break the law. We're just kids having a good time.

• 51:20Rachel Cruze?

  You're just skateboarding, and then it happens to be that.

• 51:22George Kamel?

  We're not a nuisance.

• 51:23Rachel Cruze?

  That's fair, that's fair.

• 51:24George Kamel?

  So, don't do anything illegal, guys. No financial consequences, though. I guess you did, you had to pay a bill.

• 51:29Rachel Cruze?

  I think I still owe, owe my sister-in-law some money for that ticket.

• 51:33George Kamel?

  Allison, we have it on good record, Rachel's getting you a really nice Christmas gift this year.

• 51:37Rachel Cruze?

  I promise, I will make up, make it up to you. Well, if you have a guilty as charged question, make sure to DM us at Rachel Cruz and at George Kamel, because we love your guilty as charged questions. And if you enjoyed this episode, you're going to love our episode. We dedicated an entire episode to respond to the haters. Some more dicey conversations coming up next. And make sure to subscribe, so you don't miss an all-new episode of Smart Money Happy Hour.