Stop Asking Your Kid Who Their Best Friend Is, with Adam Grant

Dr. Becky and Adam Grant talk about how and why friendship is more nuanced than we give it credit for.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, I want to vent for a sec. How many times have you or I read, I don't know, a piece of parenting advice? Or, I don't know, some quiz and it ended with, "You really need more friends in your life. You have your kids, you're busy, but you need more friends." And I don't know about you, but I'm thinking, "When am I making such friends? Like, are you also gonna carve out, I don't know, the three hours I used to have on a Saturday morning, morning, starting at 11:00 AM in college, when I would make friends over brunch? I don't have the time anymore." Well, this is gonna be a different type of episode where we're actually talking about adult relationships. But I promise you, it's anything but the typical advice. And the reason I'm excited to bring this to you

• 0:41Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  is because I was really excited after reading Adam Grant's new book, Vibe. One of the things he talks about in this book is that we tend to value this idea of best friend across so many different stages of our life, when really, we can value kind of the constellation of close relationships we have. Like, maybe that person that I see at work, where, I don't know, we have fun, we talk about things, we work on something well, but let me be honest, we're not having a coffee outside of the office. I'm definitely not calling this person on a Saturday. Maybe I'm not valuing that relationship appropriately. That doesn't mean I don't also need friends, but there was such freedom to this way of thinking

• 1:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  that I knew I had to talk about it with you. So that's what we're going to do today. Let's jump in.

• 1:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  All right, here's where I want to start. I feel like every parent, me included, is tempted to ask our kid the question at every point in the year, "Who's your best friend? Tell me about your best friend." And one of the things I got from your book is that this is just the wrong question to be asking to our kids, to ourselves. So what should we be thinking about instead?

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Becky, this is such a fun place to start our conversation. I think, I would say two things to that question. The first one is, best friends are overrated. I did not know they're a relatively recent phenomenon, that for most of American history, people did not have one best friend. It really seemed to start during the 1800s. Most countries don't limit people to one best friend. And I think the implications of this are profound. It turns out, there have been multiple studies showing that even if kids are well-liked in school, if they don't have one best friend, they feel excluded and isolated.

• 2:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  So I'd say first, stop looking for a best friend.

• 2:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Question about that study or your understanding of it. If they don't have one best friend, they feel excluded. Are you saying we've a little done that by our focus on that being the most important thing?

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the defining feature of friendship for kids is having a bestie. And if you don't have that, you feel like you don't have friends. I've, I've actually watched, I've watched our kids go through this a little bit. When one of our kids was in middle school, there were lots of friendlies, but there wasn't one bestie. And every day, like, there was, we had a conversation about where, where can I find that person?

• 3:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  And how do I build that? As opposed to saying, "Wait a minute, you have a lot of people you like. Maybe that's okay."

• 3:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And there's pros and cons. You have a lot of people you like, there's a lot of different options. The one con, and I always think about it this way, is when, when that snow day comes, you and I are in the Northeast, you don't have kind of complete conviction in the one person you might have a plan with. Right? But also, I think you're saying the more we focus on that as the only thing that matters, the more that situation is gonna kind of give our kids some anxiety.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  I think that's right. And I think that in general, kids might be better off with a few close friends than one best friend. And I think this goes to the other point, which is, I think kids need different kinds of friends. And I never thought about this until I wrote Vibe, and now it's all I can think about.

• 3:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You, you talk about four types. I love a little graph or typology. So can, can you walk me through these four types of relationships?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I, I think we can vibe on four different wavelengths. I've come to think of them as associates, allies, pals, and companions. Associates are like one step above acquaintances. You have compatible needs, but you're probably not having any kind of meaningful interaction with them. They might be the, like, the person that gives you the notes when you miss class. Or they might be the, like, the, the kid on your team who comes with the extra pair of cleats when you forget your, your soccer shoes. I think meaningful connections are the other three types, allies, pals, and companions. So your allies are people who share your goals. You're on a mission together. Your pals are people who share your interests and hobbies. You have fun together.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  And your companions are people who share your values. You have deep affection and care for each other.

• 4:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And when people say bestie, what do you, are they talking about that last one?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  I think when people say bestie, they're saying, "This is my go-to companion." But also, they're a pal and an ally. So they live in the center of that Venn diagram.

• 4:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm. And you're saying all four relationships are valuable, especially the last three. You can have really meaningful connections. You can vibe with people in any of those categories.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can actually be, you can have different levels of closeness on each of those wavelengths. So you can have a go-to ally who is your favorite person to do a group project with, that doesn't have a great sense of humor and isn't the pal that you want to get together with when you're gonna watch a funny movie.

• 5:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is this like the, the mom friend? Where like, we can, we can carpool together. I know that maybe she'll tell me, "Hey, do you remember tomorrow's picture day?" Because I definitely do not remember. My kids are gonna go to school wearing nothing important. And at the same time, I don't know, I have some emotional issue I'm going through. I might not call her.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's my, that's my ally.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I don't have mom friends, but that sounds like a great ally.

• 5:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm your, I'm your mom friend.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Are you?

• 5:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think so.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  I think you might be, actually.

• 5:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So in our adult life, do we have more of one category than the other? Or some easier to find?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  I've actually been collecting data on this. And what I can tell you is companions are the hardest to find. But people vary a lot in whether their go-to is to accumulate a lot of allies, which people who love work tend to. People who are active volunteers or joiners tend to be in lots of groups where they can collaborate to, to do lots of things. I think for most people, the most common category is pals. Because it's just, it's the lowest bar to say, "Yeah, we have something we like doing together or talking about together, and I enjoy their company." And I think that's probably where most people have the majority of their friends.

• 6:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm thinking about the parent listening. Let's say this is a parent who works outside the home. And they say, "Yeah, there's, there's a million people I talk to. I have those watercooler moments. I have someone we travel really, you know, well together. We have interesting conversations." But maybe they're missing another relationship. What you're saying is maybe, maybe they haven't found that companion through work or they haven't invested that time outside of work to find that person. But they have those other really meaningful connections. But that kind of helps clarify, maybe what am, what am I looking for that I'm not getting?

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that we need, we need every type of relationship in our life. And we are closer with people if we vibe on multiple wavelengths. So if, you know, if your partner or your best friend is your ally, your pal, and your companion, you are gonna have a really tight bond with them. But you also might be putting too much pressure on that relationship.

• 7:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I was gonna say, I got a little nervous at the idea of, my heart was racing at someone being all four.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's, there's nothing wrong with having people in our lives who are. But I've read a series of studies now showing that if you go to different friends for different things, you actually have higher well-being. And I think that it actually helps with avoiding the, the disappointment and sometimes betrayal of having different expectations.

• 7:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like the estrangement.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Estrangement is such a common response. I love that you chose that word, not because I like estrangement, but because I've seen it happen with, and I didn't have language for it until this framework sort of landed in my head after a lot of research. I've seen a lot of people, and I've lived this personally, be let down by a friend that they thought was a companion when they opened up about something really hard in their life and found out, you know what? That person is just a pal or an ally. And I think what a lot of people do then is they say, "I can't count on that person. They're out, they weren't there for me." What they should be doing is saying, "You know what? That person is not a reliable companion for me." That doesn't mean they can't be a good ally or pal.

• 8:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Oh, you're saying I have to, I have to re-categorize. I didn't even know, maybe.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I had this person in a certain category, but maybe my letdown is showing that I did, but maybe it's not, throw everything out the window. Maybe I need a new category for this person.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  I think that's right. I think that the feeling of disappointment and betrayal is often what clarifies your own expectations. And so when a friend lets you down, that's actually a mirror for you to, for you to discover, "What kind of relationship did I think we were building? What kind of connection did I think we had?" And I either need to adjust my expectations or communicate to them about what I thought we were or could be.

• 9:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, when you have kids, you meet all these people who you might not originally, on your own, have become friends with years ago, but you become friendly with them because your kids are in music class together, you're on the soccer field with them, run the parent group text. And maybe in our head, we start to form this idea of, "Oh, that person's just like my best friend from college." Like, we're gonna have the same connection. I can rely on them for the same things. Then we find out about something. "Oh, my goodness, I can't believe they had a birthday dinner and they invited this person and, and not me."

• 9:37Speaker 01

  How could they not invite me?

• 9:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I feel hurt, which, on some level...

• 9:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Is a feeling I have because maybe I didn't even know I had a certain expectation. I thought this person was my true companion, but maybe actually, if I take a moment, maybe they could still be, you're saying, a good ally.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they could even be a close ally. Somebody that you really trust when it comes to responding when you're in a pinch.

• 10:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  And you need your kids to be picked up from somewhere and you can't make it

• 10:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  to school or practice in time.

• 10:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  There are people who might be, they might have really great skills to bring to the table, but ultimately, for whatever reason, they are not your dream confidant.

• 10:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  They're not the person who is there for you emotionally.

• 10:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, it's funny, actually, you, you mentioned this example of, like, I didn't get invited. We actually had that happen. Basically, Alison and I met another couple through, uh, through like our kids being friends with their parents. And then we really hit it off with the parents. And then COVID happened. And we didn't see them for a while. And then we found out there was a big party that we weren't invited to, and some friends that were equally close did get the invite. And so the first thing we do is we ask the friends, do you know what happened? We were there, we couldn't believe you weren't there, we didn't know why. My whole life, Becky, I have avoided that kind of confrontation. It's too awkward, don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. I

• 11:03Speaker 01

  don't want to be that person anymore. I want to be a person who says, in a meaningful relationship, you care enough to tell the truth. And I want the people in my life to be forthcoming with me. And so I actually, I reached out to, uh, I reached out to the guy and I said, uh, I, I was really surprised that we weren't invited and I wanted to find out, is there something that we did to offend you? Because if so, I want to make it right. And he wrote back and he said, I feel like such an idiot. We thought you wouldn't want to come and we thought you would feel pressure to come. And we didn't want to put that burden on you because we knew it was not a convenient time and you guys had gone through some tough stuff and you had a lot on your plate. And I was like, wow, ship's passing in the night. And that conversation has rekindled our bond.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  We have gotten together with them multiple times. We've done family activities. We've done couple, double date activities. And the, I should have known, because there's a whole body of, of experiments showing that when people are randomly assigned to have that kind of confrontation or give that sort of tough love. Two weeks later, they are closer. They feel more connected to the person that they just opened up to, and the other person feels it too. And so I'm not saying that you should have every fight with every person, or you should give every bit of maybe constructive criticism that you have. Uh, some thoughts do need to be filtered. But I think there's, there's sometimes power in saying, you know what? This relationship matters to me.

• 12:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  And I, I wanted to let you know that this hurt me because I care about you and I care about us and I don't want this to create distance between us.

• 12:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  There was another path, which is, I could have just said nothing and thought for a long time about saying nothing because I didn't know how they would take it. And I didn't want to hurt their feelings by saying I was hurt. I didn't want them to feel guilty. I'm, I'm sure there were lots of good reasons for that. I don't feel entitled to be invited to their party, but I did want them to know that I care about them.

• 13:03Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  And I wanted to rekindle our connection.

• 13:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  And I think if I had just said nothing and we had tried to reconnect, we would have almost had to start over. It had been so long, we would have had to kind of rebuild the relationship as opposed to saying, hey, I miss what we had before.

• 13:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  And we'd like to pick up where we left off.

• 13:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Love that. So one of the things that I was reading your book and thinking about those four categories of vibing with someone or four categories of connections is, I was thinking about the difference between focusing on my kid's best friend or who they're closest with, or who's your snow day person, you know?

• 13:41Speaker 01

  You're very into the snow days.

• 13:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Because it just like represents to me in a, you know, I like things that are concrete, brings it up. Um, versus helping my kid value the constellation of relationships.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yes, I love that.

• 13:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Really different.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  I, I wish we'd had this conversation when I was writing the book because I would have put this in the family chapter, for sure. As, as soon as I hear you say that, I think, oh, what, what I should have been doing all along is helping our kids look at who in their life is a good ally, pal, companion, and associate. And there are, I, I've seen this so much in, in clubs and sports. There are kids who are great teammates that are actually not really good pals at all. You can count on them on the field. They will bring their A game to, like, to the school play or to debate. Uh, but they're just, like, they're pretty goal oriented and task focused and they don't know how to chill.

• 14:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. And I think you want them on your group project.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Big time. For sure. And like, I don't know, I'm guessing you were that person in a group project and so was I.

• 14:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, I was.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  But I think that, that, that layer of nuance, it allows you, I think it gives you the freedom to not write people off and instead say, oh, there's a role for them in my life.

• 14:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. And to, I'm just thinking about, you know, how I don't often say to my kids, but I'm going to now, so amazing you found someone that you can do math, you know, within class. So awesome that you love doing that Spanish project with that kid, right? And then if my kid says, yeah, but you know, we don't hang out at recess, a hundred percent, you're right.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Totally right.

• 15:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Great at that project, not interested in the same things you're interested in at recess. Both are true.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  No, and that, that doesn't even mean that they're not a potential pal. It means recess does not have the set of activities that you happen to enjoy together.

• 15:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  But you might really have fun playing video games or reading or doing jigsaw puzzles or whatever your go-to hobby is.

• 15:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You wrote a whole book about vibes, about connection. And you've been also really candid that you felt pretty alone and friendless as, like, when you were younger. So tell me a little bit about that back then. Like, what was going on for you in those years?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  This is where I see you as a clinical psychologist in action.

• 16:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Welcome to my office.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Where's your couch, Becky? What do you want to know? Tell me. Uh, I'm, I'm an open book.

• 16:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I, I guess I'm curious a little, um, well, two things. I'll, I'll, I'll share both questions, starting with, what was just going on for you then? How would you, how would you explain how you kind of experienced those years? And the second question, only after that is, how, how does Adam today kind of understand, maybe through the work that you did?

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What was going on for you?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm an introvert. I was extremely shy and extremely nerdy. And that led to, I think, a fair amount of bullying in elementary school. But also, I had a bunch of friends who I now know were pals. We just, we loved comics and sports cards and playing basketball and football and hockey and every sport we could, we could do. And I just, there were a bunch of kids nearby who I was lucky to click with that way. And then we got to middle school and we stopped doing a bunch of those activities. And I didn't realize it, right? We just kind of evolved. So we were doing our own fantasy football and basketball leagues and keeping score by hand every week. And I should have noticed and I didn't at the time, like, instead of appreciating the, the stats

• 17:11Speaker 01

  that I was calculating, a couple of those kids in the group started calling me Mr. Facts and making fun of me. And I thought I was, I was adding value to the group, but apparently I was, I was out nerding the group. And I, I didn't really notice that they were, like, I remember feeling like I was on the outside of a group that I was, I had formerly been on the inside of. But I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it. And then, like, one day, they just kind of dropped me from the group. And I felt isolated. I felt rejected. I felt confused. What did I do? But I don't think it took as much of a toll on me as it, as it might have because I had two really close friends who are not part of the group.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  And I did not know this at the time, Becky, but looking back, one of the main things we had in common was, none of us really had other friends at that point. And, but we were still doing all the pal activities. We played video games together. We actually were on the phone during Seinfeld and Friends so that we could talk during the commercials about our favorite lines. And, you know, we, we, and we played a ton of sports. And so I think we, we just kind of stayed kids longer, in a way. And that allowed us to stay close. And I think, looking back, I should have paid more attention to the rituals that were shifting, right? That, like, I was still, like, I, I've come to think we all have a fun age. Like, what is, like, what are, what age are you in pal mode?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Like, what are the activities you're doing? What, what are your go-to pal activities?

• 18:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean, I think about, like, now or?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  No, right now. Like, if you were gonna go, if you had a day for pure fun, what would you do?

• 18:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, so I would start with this, like, dance kind of, kind of exercise, but dancey class with friends, um, maybe take a walk in the park. Um, I don't know, maybe I do, because actually, you know this about me. I love a ropes course.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 19:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Did that with your daughter once. I would, like, go do some fun adventure outdoors that involves a little bit of risk and, and so thus saying, like, I can't believe we did that. Um, and then I'd probably eat, like, a bunch of, again, kind of new adventurous food with that person.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Okay, love it. So I would say your fun age is somewhere thirties or forties.

• 19:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  By the way, I think I'm way more fun now than I was.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 19:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Years ago. So you, you pegged me, right? This is gonna save me a lot of money in therapy. Thank you.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Your activities are age appropriate, in other words, right?

• 19:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  As opposed to you were knitting and doing crosswords?

• 19:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  No, no, that would be in the future. And yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Okay, so I think, so my fun age is nine, roughly. My fun day is I'm at a water park. I am jumping on a trampoline. I'm playing video games, doing Legos. And that's still kind of my dream day.

• 20:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Which is one of my favorite things about having kids who are, you know, who are that age.

• 20:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  I was kind of frozen in time with these rituals that were so fun in fourth and fifth grade.

• 20:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  And didn't know other ways to bond as a seventh and eighth grader. And I was lucky that I had two and then a third friend by ninth grade who shared those. But I think if I could go back, I would say, okay, different people have different activities that are probably gonna create a power bond. You can, you know, you can evolve that and try out some things that you haven't. Like I should have done debate, for example. That would have been a natural fit for my love of arguing. Never, not once.

• 20:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I like, if so, many more questions for a different episode for you. Cause I feel like you would have just crushed debate.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  I feel like, I don't know if I would have crushed it. I would have loved it more than anything. And so joining a group where I could do an activity that I would enjoy, but it was also gonna appeal to other people would have made a ton of sense.

• 20:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  It just wasn't on my radar.

• 20:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm. I think what you're saying, Tony, if I got this right, is looking back at those ages. And it's interesting to hear you describe them as friendless, but to also say there were some of these key people. But as so many of the overlapping areas of interests were no longer interesting to a group of friends, and maybe they developed other areas without you.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, they did.

• 21:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You didn't simultaneously get the new activities that maybe other kids your age were doing that would have given you more pal opportunities.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  I think that's right.

• 21:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm. I want to ask you about some things that stopped me in this book.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Who?

• 21:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Um, and it kind of is along the category of like the myth of instant chemistry, or I just knew, or friendship at first sight. I don't know. Um, 50 hours to go from a stranger to a friend, but 100 by the time you're in college and 200 after. Did I get those numbers right?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Roughly.

• 21:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Roughly.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  I think the, the original finding, this is Jeffrey Hall's research, was it takes on average about 50 hours of interaction to make a friend. And then either 100 or 200 to make a good or close friend.

• 22:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Talk to me about that, because I think it's interesting. I'm talking to you right now, at least in the New York area in the beginning of school. And who do you play with? Who's your friend? These are questions we ask, I don't know, 16 hours into the school year. And so let's just start with 50. Like, it takes a little while.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  It doesn't have to, though. So that's an average. And if you look at the data, both on college students and on adults, you're coming to college and you're meeting a whole bunch of new people or adults. It's people who moved to a new city and they don't know anyone there.

• 22:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, on average, it's 50 or 100 hours. But guess what? Some people make a good friend in just five hours.

• 22:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Five hours.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  And that you, you, I know you know the research on fast friends. There are ways to accelerate chemistry and closeness. And so I don't think it's a problem to be asking, we, I mean, we just started the school year, right? First week, our kids are coming home saying, I made a new friend. I think that's great. What I've tried to do is just make those categories a little bit looser and say, who did you meet that might be friend material?

• 23:07Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Or if I was gonna be one of those psychologists who brings my work home, I would say, okay, who's a potential ally, pal, companion, associate? But I think we're, we're too quick to categorize because of the insecurity.

• 23:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Initially, I want to feel like I found my people or my group or that best friend. And so really quickly, we want to put people in a bucket as opposed to saying, who did you enjoy interacting with? Who did you have a really fun conversation or do a hilarious activity with? Who did you, like, who did you really like working on a project with this week? Who asked a thoughtful question in class that you would love to study with? And I think, I think just allowing for a little bit more of that time.

• 23:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Prevents people from making snap judgments and maybe pre-committing to people who are not gonna align, which is a problem.

• 23:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I think that's a really interesting thing, too, because I always think we're our kids' mirrors to some degree. And our kids are noticing, like, what version of them do we reflect back? How excited am I that, oh, they seem to have a best friend? Or they, they notice what we ask and, right, what we spend time talking about. And that do, that, I don't know. What I'm trying to hold at once is my kid has a first impression of someone, but also leaving room to think again, to modify, to say, hold on a second. You know, I had a lot of fun with this person at recess the first week, but ever since this new kid came along, that kid hasn't been so nice to me, right? So how do we kind of help our kids honor that first impression,

• 24:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  but also leave room for updates?

• 24:42Speaker 01

  You know, I actually, Alison taught me something about this when we first met.

• 24:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  She, we had, we had some conversation and then I think I had, I'd sent her an article that I liked. And she said, another piece of the atom puzzle falls into place. I never thought of looking at a person like a puzzle before. But this actually resonates really well with the way that we think about personality and values, which is when we meet somebody, we tend to judge them by their most dominant trait. So, you know, somebody who's an extrovert, that will stand out immediately. Somebody who's intensely disagreeable, we will notice that about them. Somebody who is emotionally reactive and leaks anxiety, that's gonna be written all over their face and body language, whether they mean it or not. What we forget to do then is see them in 3D and look at all the other dimensions of them.

• 25:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  And I think looking at people like a puzzle and saying, okay, I just saw one piece. And there are a lot of other pieces I haven't discovered yet. And if I interact with them in different situations, or I observe them in different moments and different roles, different pieces are gonna show up. I think that's a great way, both to acknowledge what you've observed, right? Which is valid. You saw an aspect of a person, a snapshot of them in time, while also withholding judgment and saying, you know what? I might discover there are things that I like about the person I disliked initially. And also I might discover that my, like, the person I immediately clicked with actually has some annoying vices.

• 26:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Here's a question parents ask me all the time. How can I help my kid take ownership of their routine? I love this question because owning a routine is such a good way for kids to build independence and confidence. It's why I'm excited to tell you about Yodo, the screen-free audio player for kids. In the mornings, your kid can wake up with Yodo's alarm clock. When your kid gets home from school, Yodo has focus tracks, audiobooks, music and learning content. One of my kids really likes to write and record their own stories with the make your own cards. Then at night, your kid can build a wind down routine with Yodo's toothbrush timer, white noise and night light. With the right sounds, stories and a bit of structure, thanks to Yodo, mornings feel more manageable. Homework time feels calmer and winding down before bed becomes something kids can run themselves,

• 26:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  making the whole school year feel a little easier for everyone. Use the code DRBECKY15 for 15% off your order at Yodoplay.com. New customers only, ends October 31st. Terms apply. Offer valid on select products only.

• 27:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm just thinking, in my own house, the other day, one of my kids was commenting about this friend she has. And she was saying, you know, it's interesting when it's just us and we're walking the halls. She's so nice. But when these, you know, most popular girls are around, she's sarcastic to me in a way that's kind of mean.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  We just had this exact conversation.

• 27:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And you know what's interesting? What I find, what I found myself saying to that, because I think it goes back, Adam, to what you were saying. I want to be able to share what feels like the truths with someone. Sometimes I think we train kids out of noticing the truth, because for so many years, we just tell them something that feels like we're just trying to, you know, smooth things out. And I just found myself saying to her, like, kind of tell me more. And then I was like, you know, it sounds like you're right to notice that.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Oh, that's such a great response.

• 28:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And then I just.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Where were you three nights ago when we were talking this through?

• 28:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Saying something different. That's where I was. But, but that is kind of the, that's kind of all, I don't even know what else to say. So yeah, what, what happened in your home?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Well, what, what I find so clever about that is you're right to notice that doesn't mean you're right to write that person off.

• 28:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  You're right to dismiss that person. You're validating the observation, not a sweeping conclusion or a blanket judgment of the person.

• 28:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  So in our house, it was a conversation, it was the exact same dynamic of, basically, there's, there's a kid who's a great friend when it's one-on-one, but then in front of a group, hangs out with the popular kids and maybe kind of leaves our kid feeling excluded a little bit.

• 28:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  And I think that we actually encouraged an open conversation about it and ended up doing it, the parents with our kids and saying, you know, how have you, how have you felt let down by each other? And what has hurt your friendship? And how do you feel about coming into this conversation? It was so interesting. Both kids, both of our kids said, I was nervous about having this conversation because I thought it would hurt our friendship. And then afterward, they said, we're so glad we talked about it and now we can do this on our own. And we were missing, though, the, the part where going into the conversation, we could have said, that's a valid observation. You're right that your so-called friend is not being an equally good friend in all situations.

• 29:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Have you ever pointed that out? Are they even aware of it?

• 29:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  You have to give them a chance to change it in order to invite them to be a better friend.

• 29:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  And I think they, they built the skills to do that now, I hope.

• 29:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, that's a good prompt for me, too, just because it leads to, well, do you want, you, do you want to do anything about that? Do you want to let her know, right? Because again, withholding that information, even if my kid's right to notice it, we then make up a story in our head about what it might mean. And that that story might not be accurate. Maybe our friend would be so glad to be, you know, kind of called in to like, oh, am I doing that? Like, I care about your friendship and I don't really want to show up that way. Thanks for letting me know.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or, you know what? You're right, I do that. And maybe I don't want to be friends with that group anymore. Or maybe we should form our own group together.

• 30:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So one of the things you're kind of circling around here, and I know you talk about it in your book and even broader way, is hard moments can bring people closer.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Tell me about that.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Well, I think, you know, before, before I sat down to write, I thought closeness enables healthy conflict.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  And now I know the arrow goes in both directions, that healthy conflict can actually build closeness. I think if you do it thoughtfully, if you explain, like we were talking about earlier, if you explain that you're trying to help the other person, or you're trying to improve your bond, that signals this relationship matters to me, you matter to me. But we don't always have the language to do that. And so I, I've really learned a lot from the research on how to initiate a confrontation, or even just constructive criticism. And I think one thing I found myself doing is saying, I care a lot about our relationship, and I wanted to talk about something that I think is, you know, is, is hurting it, or, you know, is, is not helping it.

• 31:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Or another, another conversation I found enormously helpful is to say, you know, actually, for me, a defining quality of a great relationship is we help each other grow. And I don't feel like you tell me enough when you see things I can be better at. And I want that to be part of the kind of bond we have.

• 31:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  And so if you ever see anything that I could improve, even if it's something as basic as you have food in your teeth, I want to know, I want to benefit from your observations. I trust your judgment, I value your feedback. And very often, the person will either have something to share, or they will say, you know what, actually, I, I feel the same way. And that opens the door.

• 32:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. You know, I, I always think about that as name your intention, like when you really name your, and you're naming your values, you're naming, my intention is for this to bring us closer. I know if I keep this to myself, I'll pull away, and I actually want us to stay closer. I want us to get closer. It also helps, I find whenever I start a conversation, that way it reminds me the kind of tone I should have after, right? It kind of is like a promise to myself as well.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and doing it out loud really reinforces it, because you're setting the tone for it.

• 32:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Totally.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  I, I, I think it's, it's sometimes hard, because I think you can feel self-centered, to say, here's something that I think is hurting our relationship. And I think that over time, I have tried to, I've tried to frame it much more as a, hey, I noticed this is affecting the way that I approach our relationship.

• 32:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  And that's probably affecting how I show up for you, and how you react to me. And so I actually wanted to talk about this dynamic. I think it's so common for people, it's either you, or it's me, right? It is like, the, the two common attributions is, I, I mean, I think, I, I've watched this so many times, people just beating themselves up, saying, oh, no, I messed that up, it's definitely me. And then, of course, enters the, no, no, no, it's not me, it's you.

• 33:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yep.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  And that's almost, both of those stories are almost always lies in relationships. It is not you, it's not me, it's us. I love the research that psychologists have done on this, on, they call them relational attributions. And it's a whole third category of explaining when something doesn't go well interpersonally, of saying, instead of attributing it to one person or the other, it is a, it's a social dynamic that's, that's unique from either of your traits, and sometimes even, it's a pattern of interaction that you got stuck in. It's a bad ritual.

• 33:56Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  And I've, I don't know that I would use this language, but I, I have found myself trying to actively reset rituals with people, and say, you know what, like, there's a person that I always go into attack to fend spirals with.

• 34:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yep.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  And so I am initiating that when I give the feedback that feels like an attack. I need to come into that conversation and say, I just wanted to check in. Have I done anything that offended you, or upset you? And if so, I want to not only make amends for that, I'm going to change my, my behavior and show you that I mean it. The, the other dynamic that comes into play, into play a lot on this, when I think about families vibing, and I think about what interferes with both couples and parent-child dynamics a lot.

• 34:37Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Is the person who's more emotionally reactive ends up with the majority of the power. So one person ends up walking on eggshells to not upset the other person.

• 34:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Why, why? I have a lot to say about that. But you're saying the pert, the kid who has the biggest reaction to not picking the music in the car somehow gets to pick the music on every-

• 34:58Speaker 01

  The music.

• 34:59Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Car ride.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And that, and that happens across the board, right?

• 35:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Although, and this is, you know, one of my favorite topics, really, nobody wins there, because that kid becomes, almost gets the message, the mirror back, like, everyone's a little scared of you. And so actually, what they take in is, I'm a big overpowering scary person, that identity isn't going to help me at times regulate or smooth things over, it's going to actually kind of calcify the dynamic, right?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting. So what would you do instead?

• 35:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So first of all, 20% of the time, I'm going to be like, kid, pick the music, because I just like, don't want to deal with, you know, meltdowns every car ride. But I think not walking on eggshells around those kids is the most, one of the most important things they need, not in a mean way, but hey, I want to tell you, tomorrow, your sister's choosing the music. And let me just be clear, I know it's not going to be fun for you, you might complain the whole time, as a family, you might listen to no music, because it's going to be a little bit of music and a lot of your protest, but your mom and I are ready for that. Your kids are older, but especially when they're younger, in fact, I'm going to sit in the backseat with you and stop you from taking your seatbelt off, I'm already ready, it's not going to be my most car ride, but that's what's going to happen, because this family needs to have multiple kids learn how to pick music, and every kid in this family also needs to learn how to be in a car when their favorite music isn't playing.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I love you enough to set you up for that.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  That's exactly what's missing often in these interactions.

• 36:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right. And so, in a way, we're giving the power back to the parents, and in a way, you're giving the power back to the kid in the future, to not be someone who can only feel okay being them, and like, the narrowest range of the world going their way. That's real power.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  This is why we need to do more podcasts together.

• 36:37Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  There we go.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Because me coming on your podcast is my Trojan horse for saying, I want to become a better parent and a better partner, and you're going to teach me how.

• 36:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Always fun. Okay, one more thing about the hard things, because as you know, then about me, I'm kind of obsessed with thinking about how to help kids feel more capable doing hard things. But what I got from your book, that was, that I hadn't thought about, is that hard things don't just build a kid, hard things actually build kids' relationships. Like, when a kid says, I don't want to try out for that basketball team, I don't know anyone.

• 37:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  One of the things I first go to is, wait, it's going to be such a good thing for a kid to watch themselves try out, make it or not, it's just like a good experience. But I think you're saying too, maybe some of the best friendships that kid's going to have are going to be with those kids they eventually meet on the basketball team, because they're on this hard team together, that friendships, connections, vibes get built through putting yourself in situations that are challenging. So tell me more about that.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  I, I didn't think about it that way, and I think that's such an interesting characterization of it. I think people think it's shared suffering that matters. It's not. What the research tells us is, it's not adversity that brings us closer, it's intensity. Having an emotional experience where our hearts are racing, and they are beating together, is what bonds us together. And so if you shield your kid from hard things, they're never going to have those emotionally intense situations where they bond with other kids. And, I mean, I think some of the examples are really clear. So we know that physical endurance or exertion challenges are really good, in the sense that sweating together is a form of social grease.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  That, you know, if kids have to push themselves through a run or a bike ride, then, you know, they, and they go through that together, it will generally bring them closer, because we conquered that challenge together, something that I think most sports coaches know intuitively.

• 38:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  I think that we don't think about the range of ways that we could create emotional intensity. So I love this experiment that was done recently, where people go to a haunted house together, and afterward, they feel closer, but only if they debrief together. So it's not just having the jump scare, it's, whoa, that happened to us, right? That leads us to say, wow, that is a unique moment for our dynamic. And I think, so I think you're right. I think that as parents, if we encourage our kids to try hard things, to put themselves in uncomfortable situations, to challenge themselves, and they're doing that with other kids, there is more opportunity for bonding, because you end up being a little bit vulnerable together.

• 39:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  And that allows you to, to feel like, wow, those people understand what I went through, I trust them, and we've, we've got something.

• 39:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, you know, it, it also, as, just kind of consulted by parents who were struggling because their kid doesn't really like to do sports, but wants a lot of private lessons. Okay. And one of the things this book reframed for me, is I think about it as kind of this hyper-optimization we're doing for kids, that again, you can see by my hands, in the name of making kids really good at things, you're really narrowing the range of experiences that felt comfortable.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  And the, the range of relationships.

• 39:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But I'm thinking about, I hadn't really thought about, oh, this is a kid who's true, is pretty good at hockey and lacrosse, all these things, but look at the kids he'd be meeting in those classes, probably kids with so many interesting, you know, areas of interest and overlap, and those are kids that could be, forget the class, but even outside of class, so many friendship opportunities missed.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  I, I think that's a huge thing. I mean, if you, if you're the parent who's having your kids do private tennis lessons instead of group lessons.

• 40:23Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  You are sacrificing social skills building. You are also missing out then, on a group of peers who are going to challenge them.

• 40:31Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  And help them develop their skills. You know, it's, it's funny, if you, if you go back to, you know, I start high school, and my friend group has dropped me, and I've got these two friends left. My diving coach told me recently, that, he said, you showed up in high school, and you only had one friend. And I said, actually, you didn't know the other. There were two.

• 40:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hold on a second.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  A, a, a third friendship was forming at, at that time, but I didn't know it. It was a, somebody at middle school I'd been randomly assigned a room with on a school trip, and then we were in a class together in ninth grade, and, and that kind of brought us together. But I had very few friends, and Eric, my coach, was laughing, he said, you, you were not well-liked, you were not socially skilled at all, you annoyed everybody, you argued with every single thing that you disagreed with me on, and I knew a little bit more about diving than you did. And he said, by the time you graduated, I watched you completely transform, social skills-wise. He said, I was like a caterpillar that became a butterfly. And I said, well, first of all, thank you, like, thank you for telling me I had basically no friends now.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  But I said, if, I, I, I don't, I, I don't exactly know what happened. And he said, well, you spent most of practice waiting in line to dive. And you had to talk to the other people on the team. And you weren't, you didn't hit it off with all of them. And you were stuck with them and you had to figure it out. And Becky, I never thought of this. I spent six years of my life obsessed with, with springboard diving. And I thought about all of the hard things I did to overcome my fear of heights and of getting lost in midair and just boosting my pain tolerance to smack on my back at 30 miles an hour and have bruises for six weeks. That was what was hard about diving in my head.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  I had that conversation with Eric and I realized, actually, one of the biggest challenges of diving was figuring out how to get along with people I didn't like. And how to take somebody who is definitely not a companion, not a pal, and make them at least a partial ally. And I think those are the, it's not just sports, right? It's any kind of goal oriented activity that we encourage our kids to do. If we don't force them to collaborate with peers that they don't like, we are depriving them of skills that they need in their adulthood.

• 42:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, I think that's exactly it. For most of us who are doing any form of youth sports, the thing that's going to stay with us far longer than any of the skills for that sport are the relationships we built and the skills we built getting along with other people. And that clearly was the most lifelong skill you got from all those years. Top thing you want people to take away from your latest book, what would that be?

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Oh, this is like choosing a favorite child, Becky.

• 43:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You can do it. You can do hard things.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Can I?

• 43:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. Not the child, the takeaway from the book. I don't need the answer to that question.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Nope. Okay, so let's see, my biggest takeaway, I think every interaction is an expanding set of possibilities to get to know people on different levels and to bond in different ways. And I think too often we get stuck in one lane and then we just drive in it. So you're the class clown, or you're good at cracking jokes, and you approach everyone as the potential pal. And not everybody is going to be your pal. And you need to broaden your repertoire and say, okay, let me find out what people's challenges are and try to help them and be a good ally. Let me show a little bit of vulnerability and talk about something I'm struggling with, or ask them about something they're regretting right now. And let me try to elicit some companionship.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  I think that we have a go to way of connecting with other people. It may not match what theirs is. And if we can recognize that range of possibilities, we have a better chance at not missing out on great interactions and meaningful connections.

• 44:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I love that. And I think that's such a direct kind of, there's such a direct application to parents listening, just to make one comment about a type of relationship your kid has that you've never thought to explicitly value. Wow, it's so amazing you have a friend to laugh with. You know, they've never had a playdate with them. That's okay. It's so awesome that you know exactly who you want to partner with when you have science experiments. And then just ended at that, that we're kind of planting the seeds for our kids to value that constellation.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Ah, that's such, yes, yes, yes, yes, I agree. And I don't care whether people use the terms allies, pals and companions. For me, they're a convenient shorthand, but I don't think it's hard to have a conversation with kids about, look, you have friends that you can really count on. You have friends that you can laugh with. You have friends that are, are good at solving problems. And those are different kinds of relationships and some people will be multiple and some people will be just one. And that's okay. You need all of them in your life.

• 45:22Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, here's what I want to end with today. They're actually the two things that keep pinging around in my brain. And one is a takeaway for us as adults. And the other one is a takeaway in terms of something very concrete you could say to your kid today that I know I'm going to say first for us adults. I love this idea that we can look at getting to know someone as completing a puzzle. Now, I don't know if we ever complete it, but if you think about it that way, the first experience you have with someone, yeah, it's a few puzzle pieces. And I think what can often happen is we learn something new. Kind of like a brand new puzzle piece. We're like, whoa, I don't know you'd react that way in that situation. And we could look at that new piece of information as a way of throwing out all the others. Oh, forget it. I'm never going to talk to that person again.

• 46:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Now, maybe that's warranted, but it's a different framework to say, huh?

• 46:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  This puzzle is not going to end up the way I thought. All right. Let's add that piece in. Huh? What might be next? And it just gives us permission to kind of get to know someone instead of being so attached to the version of who they are that may be the first few pieces indicated, but time might shift. All right, here's the concrete thing with our kid. I really love this idea of helping my kid at a young age, value a whole constellation of relationships. And I think if you're like me, it's just easy to get caught in best friend mode. Who's your best friend? Who'd you play with? Who are you hanging out with on this day? It's just a lot of pressure.

• 46:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Plus, it might set my kid up to be older and picturing my kid in their twenties and they move somewhere new. What an amazing adventure to move to a new city. They're not going to have a best friend for a while. And if that's the only thing they've been taught to value, they might feel lonely. But if they've been taught to value relationships that are many different categories, oh, that feels, I don't know, it's easier to be successful. There's something I'm going to say to my kid this week, when it's natural, something like, oh, you found someone you really loved doing that English project with. How cool. Wait, you have a math partner there? Tell me, what do you like about doing math with that person? Oh, the two of you are both in this club together? Oh, but you haven't really played at recess? Cool, tell me more about that.

• 47:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  To focus less on best friend and more on showing your kid that you actually value this idea of a constellation, because they're going to take that in and it's going to be so useful for them for the rest of their life. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.

• 48:08Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'll see you soon.

• 48:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hey there, Gilli here. I'm the baby sleep expert at Good Inside and I've helped over 60,000 families get more sleep. Our baby sleep program is here. We'll help you navigate everything from newborn nights to sleep regressions to building independent sleep skills with clear steps that respect your comfort level and protect your connection with your baby. Plus, you get two gifts on us, a one-on-one session with a sleep coach like me and three months access to the Good Inside app. You deserve more sleep and a plan you feel good about. Head to goodinside.com or tap the link in the show notes to learn more.