#1129 Shawn Ryan | Inside CIA Contracting with a Navy SEAL

Shawn Ryan is a former Navy SEAL, CIA Contractor & current host of the "Shawn Ryan Show" podcast. In this conversation, we discuss his military career, his time as a contractor, lessons learned from the military that he applies to the business world, his positive experience using psychedelics, and what he's learned from hosting his own podcast. ======================= Valour (formerly DeFi Technologies) represents what’s next in the digital economy -- providing simplified, trusted access to crypto, decentralized finance and Web 3.0 investment opportunities. Institutions and investors can gain diversified, secure, compliant, and easily tradable access to a diversified set of industry-leading equity products and protocols, through a single stock purchase on a regulated exchange. Currently listed on U. S. (OTC: DEFTF) and Canadian (NEO:DEFI) exchanges. For more information or to subscribe to receive company updates and financial information, visit our website at valour.com ======================= With a Messari Pro subscription, you gain access to exclusive industry-leading long-form daily research reports, daily crypto news & insights in your inbox, advanced asset screeners, curated sets of charts and metrics and so much more. Try Messari Pro today! Get up to 25% off their Messari Pro membership by visiting www.messari.io/pro and entering promo code "POMP" at checkout. ======================= Bullish is a digital asset exchange that offers industry-leading order depth, consistently tight spreads, and new ways to earn, with world-class security. Combining innovations of DeFi with the performance of a traditional, centralized order book, Bullish lets you trade with certainty across variable market conditions. All in a regulated environment. Learn more at Bullish.com and follow @Bullish on Twitter today. ======================= Compass Mining is the world's first online marketplace for bitcoin mining hardware and hosting. Compass was founded with the goal of making it easy for everyone to mine bitcoin. Visit https://compassmining.io/ to start mining bitcoin today! ======================= Exodus is leading the world out of the traditional financial system by building beautiful and user-friendly blockchain products. With its focus on design and user experience, Exodus has become one of the most popular and loved cryptocurrency apps. It’s supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync your wallet across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. You can instantly exchange around 100 different cryptocurrencies straight from your wallet. Interactive charts let you view an asset’s price history and your portfolio’s performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with the Trezor hardware wallet - making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit exodus.com/pomp for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or Playstore. ======================= The number one name in NFT domains and the world’s most powerful wallet are teaming up to bring something new to the crypto and Web3 world: Either sign up for a free blockchain.wallet or visit Unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today. ==================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Shawn Ryan, former Navy SEAL, CIA contractor, and the host of The Shawn Ryan Show. In this conversation, we talk about his illustrious military career, his time as a contractor, lessons he learned both in the military and as a contractor that he now applies to the business world, and generally what it takes to be successful in the world that we live in. Also, Shawn has built an amazing business and a great show that I highly suggest you go take a look at. We talk about why he does it, what exactly his experience with psychedelics was that unlocked a bunch of business success, and why you, as a listener or a viewer, should

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

  go and check out The Shawn Ryan Show. I really enjoyed this conversation with Shawn, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. Once you get done listening, jump on Twitter and let us know what you liked, what you didn't like, what you agreed with, and what you disagreed with. We love the feedback, and I consider it a gift. All right, let's get in this episode with Shawn. I hope you guys enjoy it.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:25Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Shawn here with me. I thought a great place to start would be Navy SEALs are known for just incredible training programs and process. We produce some of the best warfighters in the world. But in some ways, the Navy SEAL methodology is also like an apprenticeship model, where you spend time training, you get through kind of selection and all these. But then you go to a team, and you're the new guy. And you very much learn from the people who've been doing it longer. Talk a little bit about that experience. And like, do you learn more in the training process? Or do you learn more on the team, kind of just doing it and being thrown into the fire with people who are older, more experienced than you?

• 2:05Speaker 02

  That's a, you learn a lot in training, but you, you don't really learn how to be a SEAL in training. And so when you show up to the team, you hear all the rumors and, you know, oh, we're gonna get the shit beat out of us, or whatever. And from, from, actually for me personally, that did not happen right off the bat. But my, when I showed up, my platoon had a different methodology where they, they actually had it really bad. They showed up and there was a lot of kinda unnecessary hazing and knocking people around and stuff. And so they wanted to do it different. It was almost, I don't know if passive aggressive is the right word, but when you, when you get out of BUDs training and you get out of

• 2:50Speaker 02

  SQT and you show up to the team, you, you think you're on top of the world. You got your trident. And you think, oh yeah, I'm a SEAL. Little do you know, you know, you're, you know about this much of what it takes to go to combat with a SEAL platoon. And so what the, what, when I showed up, my platoon, they kinda waited for that ego to develop. And then they shut it down real fast. But, but as far as learning, um, and, and I think they're a lot better about it today. Learning is, when you show up to the team, you got kinda two types of, two types of SEALs when I was in. You got the guys that are just, they're just gonna be an asshole to you no matter what. You know, and if you mess up,

• 3:35Speaker 02

  then you're gonna hear about it. And they don't really correct you. And then you have the guys who are the superstars. And they'll tune you up, and then they'll take you to the side and say, look, this is how we need things to be done. And this is a better way to do it. And this is a better way to integrate into the team, or better way to clear that room. And, and for some reason, those guys always wind up being the rock star operators. You know, that, that, they really know their shit. The guys that can put their ego aside and, and, and help, help the FNGs.

• 4:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. The business world has become obsessed with the military in general, uh, but I think SEALs in recent years have been And kind of plastered across the media and obviously there's a number of stories of both heroic actions, but also just results that have become quite popular. And I think the reason why so many people in the business world are obsessed with this is because there's the aspects of leadership and teamwork and things that run across all organizations. But the difference is in the military, if somebody screws up, like it's literally life or death. Right. And so the stakes are higher and you need that cohesiveness. When you were operating in the SEAL teams and you're talking about these kind of superstars, it sounds like there was like this knowledge transfer where yes, they would be assholes.

• 4:50Anthony Pompliano?

  They would kind of hold you accountable, but they would still be willing to teach. How important was it that your peers were also teaching versus if it had come top down and it had been maybe officers or people kind of back at, you know, some sort of headquarters, a unit or something like that, trying to tell you what to do. Is it important that it was like the peers rather than more, maybe more kind of the superiors? Or do you think that it was just, no, if you got the knowledge, it would have had the same impact?

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Well, that's a, that's a great question, but it's not 100% relevant because the officers and the, the upper head shed, a lot of times they don't have the skills that the actual guys on running the team are, are, are the ground guys, you know? So let's like an officer, most officers don't go to sniper school. Most officers don't go to communication school. Most officers don't go to a breaching school. Their whole focus is to learn how to lead, you know? And so what they do is they allow all the guys who are the resident expert in their specific genre to teach the new guys, you know, their skill set.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  So they'll take a breacher, a breacher is a guy who is, uh, he blows doors up. He's a master of entry. And so they'll take the top breachers and they'll run. The new guys through, you know, through a, a, a basic breaching course to get them, you know, kind of up to speed and the snipers, you know, will run guys who haven't been through sniper school through a basic sniper course, stalking, shot placement, all that kind of stuff. Same with comms, same with diving, same with everything. And so when you get to a SEAL team, you have your head shed and they're in charge, but they're really good at disseminating. Like, look, you need to go and talk to Anthony, who, you know, is the best diver in the platoon and he's going to score you away with your gear and all that kind of stuff.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  And then you need to go talk to Sean, you know, the, the breacher and you need to go talk to this guy, the, the assaulter. And, and so that's kind of, does that answer your question?

• 6:58Anthony Pompliano?

  It, it does. And one of the things that immediately jumps to mind is, uh, there's a lot of debate around specialization versus, uh, kind of a generalist. And, uh, people debate this in terms of building their own careers, uh, regardless of the industry. People debate this with their kids, right? Should you start them out super specialized in maybe a sport versus allow them to play a bunch of different sports and figure out what they like? The SEALs seem to be unique in that you do have a specialization, but you have to be kind of a master, uh, of many other genres or skillsets as well, because you need to have that well-roundedness because on the battlefield, it's not like, hey, you only get to do comms, you don't have to shoot today, right? Is, is that kind of a fair characterization?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  It is. However, that specialization can change. So SEAL teams go in cycles. So when I was in, it was a, about a two-year cycle. It was a year and a half of training, workups, going to schools, getting specialized and stuff, and then it's a six-month deployment. So in that two years, your specialization, and, and at the beginning of that is when you can do, when you can go into a new specialization. So you have about six months where you can go to sniper school, breacher school, comm school, uh, free fall school, it, all kinds of schools, right? Well, if you go to one of the main ones, which would be like one of the ones that I

• 8:14Speaker 02

  listed, then that's your field of expertise for that two-year cycle or until you're placed into, if I go through sniper school, you know, at the beginning of that cycle. Beginning of the next cycle, I might say, hey, look, I wanna, I wanna go to breacher school. And then for that cycle, you might be the lead breacher. You know, and then it all depends on how many cycles you're doing and what you wanna do. A really good SEAL will develop all of his skill sets.

• 8:43Anthony Pompliano?

  And as you're going through these different schools, in the last 20 years, you pretty much knew, hey, there's a high likelihood that you're gonna go to war. Right? I've talked to a lot of people who were in the military pre 9/11, and they're like, yeah, we went to schools, it was cool, we kinda were screwing around, didn't really know what else to do with my life, but like, the threat of war was not nearly as obvious. And people would get deployed, but they'd go to Kosovo or somewhere where, you know, yes, technically you're forward, but it's somewhat peacetime operations. Did that change the way that SEALs trained, thought about going to different schools, or kind of the day-to-day operations when not deployed, knowing that, you know, at

• 9:25Anthony Pompliano?

  a moment's notice, you could be deployed and kind of put forward into some of the most ferocious battles that we now are starting to learn about?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  I can only speak from my own experience, you know, and when I, by the time I got to SEAL training BUDs, it was already post 9/11, so I saw a little bit of that transition by the time I showed up to the team. What, it definitely, I could tell that there was a transition in process, if that makes sense. I could see the old mindset, especially of the, the older SEALs and the more seasoned SEALs at the time, and then the guys that were coming back from early deployments, early on in the war. And when those meshed, it was, it was, it was an interesting time to be in, because

• 10:17Speaker 02

  you saw guys who had been in for 15, 20 years, you know, who hadn't Been to a con- to a real war zone. And then you got guys that are like me, a new guy coming back after one deployment or two deployments. And they have already been to Iraq, Afghanistan, maybe Pakistan, maybe more. And so what that did at the beginning is it created a lot of, uh, it created a lot of jealousy.

• 10:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  You know, because, I mean, you can figure it out. You got a guy who just came in, who went and did the job that the guy that's been in for 20 years has been trying to do. And so that created a lot of jealousy for a long time. And it took probably a good five, six years, I'm estimating, to kind of, to kind of switch that mindset. Cause the old mindset was, was, and it still is to this, some extent was work hard, play hard. And we work really hard and we play even harder. And that mindset kind of started to switch, you know, especially when you started seeing, um, more and more guys getting killed out there. It becomes, you know, it, it brings a realness to the, to the entire community when that kind of stuff starts happening.

• 11:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  You know, so, so, so the training environment did change. The focus would be, it went from, let's hurry up and get this shit done so we can go to the bar to, let's not hurry up and get this shit done. Let's get this shit right because we're going to be doing this in two months overseas.

• 11:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Well, um, I was deployed to Iraq, uh, for, uh, about a year. And, uh, in the big army, there was two things that I think surprised me in that experience, uh, among many, but two that really stuck out. The first was, uh, everyone has this big buildup to going to war. And now the big army is going to do very different types of operations than, uh, the SEALs were. Uh, but once you kind of see it and you feel it and you're in it. You're not exactly looking for a fight every day, right? There was this element of like, okay, cool. Like this shit's real. And if we have to, we'll fight. But it's not like we want to go and pick fights just for the hell of it. Because this is real, right? So I think that was one. And then two was as kind of a second component of that.

• 12:33Anthony Pompliano?

  I happened to be in a platoon where the very first engagement that we were in, the platoon leader was not there. And so everyone is getting combat action badges and kind of all these, like I think in the military, you don't really give a shit about. But from the outside, they seem important. And so through the rest of the deployment, the platoon leader seemed to make decisions that I'm not going to say put people at risk intentionally, but definitely felt like, hey, he wouldn't be upset if he was able to be in an environment where he could get some of these awards and things like that. And so like, maybe that was a one off case and it was just like human dynamics, but maybe not. And so like, how did the SEALs think about this?

• 13:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Is it something where most of the people while deployed were like, let's go get in firefights every night and like, you know, I live for this? Or was it more of like, let's go do our job. And if we have to do that, you know, we're prepared to do it. But it's not necessarily something we're seeking out. Like what was kind of the, maybe like the psyche of the SEALs going on these missions?

• 13:35Speaker 02

  For me, and I would say probably 90% of the SEAL teams, it's let's go get in the gunfight. Okay. Let's go, let's go do what we came here to do. Let's, let's, we have all this training, you know, it's a BUDs is six months. Usually it takes guys a year to get through. Then you go to jump school, then you go to SQT. Now I think the guys are going to some more schools. Then you show up to your team and you do a year and a half workup. And then you finally deploy. So add all that time up and then you finally get a chance. It's like, It's like a MLB player showing up on the, on the, on the field for the first time. It's like, shit, here we are.

• 14:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I need, I need at bats.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Put me in, coach.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  And now, guys that have been around longer, guys that have seen shit, guys that have that experience, they have a different mindset. And that, that is another thing at the very beginning, um, I was, I was war hungry. I really wanted to kick some ass. We had a lot of deaths. I, um, we went into Afghanistan right after Red Wings happened. That was the biggest loss in the SEAL teams at the time. And we weren't doing a whole lot and it was, it was extremely frustrating for me.

• 14:45Anthony Pompliano?

  And for those that don't know, Red Wings was the operation Marcus the Trail Lone Survivor.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Um, and I think it ended up being about 20 Navy SEALs were, were killed during that three or four day period. And so you went in right after.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yep. And it was very risk averse. So we had all these targets that we could have gone and hit, but we weren't doing it. And it created this, it, it, it, it really demoralized, um, the platoon. And so, does that answer it?

• 15:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  You know, we really wanted, we wanted to fight.

• 15:20Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and so it almost feels like when you're talking about this demoralization, uh, you know, the targets are there. You have the intel. We know where they are. We have the skill set to go and, and capture them, kill them, do, do whatever is asked of us. Uh, but it's frustration that you're not getting the green light to go do it. And you're kind of sitting there without being able to use the skill set?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Let me, yeah, let me try to paint this a little clearer for you. So I went to first or second deployment, I'm sorry, to Afghanistan. We show up, first thing we do is an intel brief. In that intel brief is video footage of the guys that went down in the helos that went to, um, QRF, Quick Reactionary Force, to the guys on the ground and the sniper hide, Marcus, Axelson, uh, Dietz. One of the first things I saw was a fighter, a foreign fighter, holding up Danny Dietz's ID, trying to figure out how to turn his night vision on, how to turn his laser on. They're ripping his clothes off and you could see the fresh tattoo that

• 16:23Speaker 02

  was just tattooed on Danny's ribs. And then we don't do anything, you know, and, and.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  The only question in your head is, why the fuck aren't we doing anything?

• 16:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, who is that guy?

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and then you see him collecting all the other rifles and going through the helo crash and, and getting everything they can, just scavenging off of our guys' dead bodies. And so, that demoralized us, guys that hadn't been out yet. Let's fast forward, then we go to Iraq, and we're doing just a lot of sniper stuff. Lot of, we killed a lot of bad guys that were trying to do harm, especially the infantry army that were running convoys. And it was just op after op of taking care of guys that were placing roadside bombs.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Well, then it started, once you get it, you know, and you get the taste, then you start, you start understanding, you know, hey, maybe this isn't worth going out for, you know, that we're not, yeah, there's a bunch of shitheads over here, but maybe we're waiting for the big one, you know? And if we go take care of all these shitheads, then the big guy's not going to come out. And so, you learn to develop patience and, and you start to begin to understand, you know, why things maybe don't move as fast as, as you want them to.

• 17:46Anthony Pompliano?

  It, it, it's, uh, you can take that learning and apply it across various industries and organizations, like the young person who shows up and is like, let's just go build everything right in business. And then somebody says, well, hold on, there's resources, there's budget, there's strategy, there's other components that you may or may not see. When did you realize that you were maybe gaining the experience or the patience or some of the discipline that the older guys had? Was it just reps, so literally just being on combat deployments and, and going on these operations? And eventually you just pick it up? Did somebody like sit you down and say, hey, here's why this is the way it is? And so, you know, once you have that knowledge, then you look at it differently, what changed?

• 18:27Speaker 02

  You know, I'm kind of a slow learner. So, I actually left the SEAL teams and I didn't. I didn't really pick up that bigger picture uh until I got into CIA. And then I started to realize, hey, there is a lot bigger of a picture here than Sean being able to go out and kick some ass every night. And uh and it it was probably a good four or five years into my agency career. Uh that I finally started picking that up. And the only reason I was able to pick that up is because the agency has their hands at so many different things. You start to build the bigger picture yourself in your own headed and it's

• 19:08Speaker 02

  okay, I see how all this shit is all connected throughout the entire battle space. I see how how we're utilizing the SEAL teams and how we're utilizing Green Berets and Delta and Team Six and and and assets that you're running and and and all these things, you know, and and and that's when you start to understand, okay. Patient, we we gotta be patient because we want to get number one. We don't want to get, you know, the minions.

• 19:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I I mean, it's very similar if if you've ever talked to like the DEA or uh police officers, right? Like they'll go do street drug buys because they want to figure out who this person is. They pick them up and say, hey, where do you get your drugs from? And they kind of work their way up the organization and eventually they try to get the leader, right? And we saw this, you can go look in the tri-state area with the mafia and kind of how they pinned those guys. Military is very similar. Um and I think what was fascinating to me uh was we weren't being given operations to go anywhere near big guys or anything like that. Um but there was names that were known. There was, you know, kind of almost myth- mythical figures to some degree, right? As to, oh, we don't go over here because A, B, or C reason, that's so and so's, you know, kind of domain.

• 20:23Anthony Pompliano?

  And you're like, well, if we know that dude's name.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? You're telling me that the the might and power of the United States military can't figure out where the fuck that guy is, right? Uh and so it was like very weird to some degree.

• 20:38Anthony Pompliano?

  But I do think that your point about like, once you got exposed to more, you learned. When you left the SEALs, you didn't expect to go to the CIA.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:47Anthony Pompliano?

  You went and if I remember correctly, wanted to go into like more business and kind of the investment world?

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I read, I read Donald Trump's book, The Apprentice. Was it the, no, it was How to Get Rich.

• 21:00Anthony Pompliano?

  How to Get Rich.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  It was How to Get Rich. I picked it up in, actually, I picked it up in Cuba at Guantanamo Bay. And I read the whole thing in like two days and I was like, fucking hey, man, I'm gonna go get rich.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  And they're like, well, how are you gonna do that? And I was like, I'm gonna sell my fucking condo and I'm gonna use that money to start flipping houses. And I'm gonna become a real estate agent. And then that turned into a whole disaster.

• 21:27Anthony Pompliano?

  How, how long did you last doing that?

• 21:29Speaker 02

  Oh, man, prob, I sold one house to my ex-girlfriend's mother for about a hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

• 21:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Success.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and so pretty, a very small commission. And I, I realized a lot of things very fast. I'm horrible at dealing with people, especially coming, I mean, right out of Afghanistan or right out of Iraq and to being a Realtor. I have no patience. I mean, I would ride around and print off, this is what, back in two thousand seven, two thousand six ish? I would print off like fifty pages of MapQuest because I was too broke to buy a TomTom. You know what a TomTom is?

• 22:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  And I would hand it to the client and then I would get pissed off because I don't know how to read a map. And, and so anyways, I just realized, I was like, you know, this isn't, this is, this is not my skill set.

• 22:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Dealing with people, selling, this isn't my skill set. And so, so I went into a fire academy.

• 22:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And you eventually end up at the CIA. I think I've heard you talk previously that a friend basically was like, hey, you know, you're looking for work. Send me a resume and I'll, I'll see what I can do. But it sounds like maybe you didn't know that it was the CIA, what you would be doing. Like, there's almost like a kind of a curtain and until you're behind the curtain, you don't really know what's going on. Is that a fair way?

• 22:53Speaker 02

  They don't really tell you.

• 22:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  And. So the way it was, was I left being a Realtor, obviously, and I was in the fire academy. That wasn't really going great. It was, you're not gonna get hired for two years and me, you know, I'm just gonna say I'm a white male, a white, straight male. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not high on the priority list, right?

• 23:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  So, um, so they told me, they were like, look, it's gonna be two years at least before you even think about getting in. Plus, you have all the family ties within the fire service as well.

• 23:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  You know, and so they need to entertain all of that and you know where I'm going. And, um, so, you know, I'm an adult at this point. Obviously, I have bills to pay and I'm like, well, this shit, this isn't gonna work. I don't have two years to wait, you know, for, for a firefighter salary. Just so happened, my buddy called me and, um, he was, hey, I'm working for Blackwater at the time. And I was like, no, I don't wanna do, I don't wanna work at Blackwater.

• 24:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Why not?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Well, it, Blackwater had, contractors in general had a reputation back then. And, uh, some of that reputation is true. A lot of the Blackwater stuff wasn't true. That was other companies that were doing things they shouldn't have done, saying that they were Blackwater when they weren't. Anyways, um, long story short, the contracting requirements, I didn't realize there were different sections. So if you look at Blackwater, Blackwater's an umbrella company, but they also, they have the State Department contract, they have the CIA contract, they have all kinds of contracts. Maybe they have the NSA contract, maybe they have the DEA contract. There's a ton of contracts. There's a mail contract

• 24:45Speaker 02

  to get mail and, uh, delivered. And I didn't realize that. So then they take all the resumes that they get and they put different qualified guys into different buckets. Just so happens, most of the guys coming from special operations get put into the CIA bucket, but they can't know that. Anyways, I didn't think I was gonna be working with the type of people who I was used to working with in the SEAL teams and I didn't. I wasn't in contractors at the time where they had the reputation of being blood thirsty. And.

• 25:19Anthony Pompliano?

  And for those that don't have the context, one of the things that ends up being, I think, a challenge for the contractors, especially at that time, is if you're blood thirsty, but you're not actually with the support of the military, as we saw a couple of times, you're kind of out on an island on your own. It can almost be more dangerous than if you had the full, you know, support and firepower of the, you know, the military where you could call QRF or you could call some of these organizations. You may not have the best equipment. Like there was a lot of things, especially early on, that changed over time. But depending on when you were looking at it, also, it could have just been more dangerous than even being a SEAL.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. What you had was you, because the contracts were so wide, right? And I didn't realize this when I was in the teams co-located with these guys, you know, in Iraq and Afghanistan is, I mean, I would be in the chow line or something and I'd talk to somebody, be like, oh, how did you get to work here? How did you get into contracting? Oh, I was a Bank of America security guard last week.

• 26:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Jesus.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  And I'm like, really? And now you're here? And you are not gonna have my back. I don't think I want to be a contractor when I leave this gig. And, well, anyways, my friend had told me, he's like, look, it's not like what you're thinking. He's like, it's not what we saw overseas. There's a bigger picture here. And he's like, everybody on this side of the house is like us or better than us. I think you might want to give me your resume. It pays extremely well and it's a great gig to be on. And so I said, all right, here it is. I mean, I had an idea. I was like, all right, it's got to be a three-letter agency contract, or at least attached to them.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  And yeah, so that's, so I gave my resume. I didn't hear anything. The first, the first correspondence I got was, we need a full body shot of you to make sure I'm not a fat ass. I didn't know that at the time.

• 27:18Anthony Pompliano?

  No way.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and that was like.

• 27:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Naked or clothed?

• 27:21Speaker 02

  No, no, no, clothed, clothed.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  We need a, we need a full frontal with a.

• 27:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Government was running OnlyFans before.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  I thought this was just a military kind of job, but, but yeah, so I was like, all right, well, that's kind of weird. So I sent it in and, and then I later found out, hey, we, we get a lot of, a lot of guys let themselves go when they get out and we don't want that. And so that's what that was.

• 27:48Anthony Pompliano?

  It's amazing. People think it's so sophisticated, but it's like, just as a picture, right? Like, we're gonna get like, uh, eighty percent of people filtered out that are just fat.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And you can't be fat in this job, whether people like that or not. Like, you gotta be able to be physically fit to do the job.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Yep. So, and they've already done all the other vetting, you know, or not, most of it. They've asked around, they've got opinions, your name might be in a wall, but it's a really small community. So they, they already kind of know at least a little bit about who you are as an operator before, before you have to give the full frontal. And, uh, and then I didn't hear anything for a long time again after that. And, uh, filled out some paperwork for a new security clearance. And then, I mean, I thought it was just done. And then I got, I got a, you know, hey, we need you here on this date. This is what you bring.

• 28:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Who says that? Like, is, is it your friend? Is it like, uh, somebody that's like, hey, I work for the CIA. I need you to come here?

• 28:44Speaker 02

  No, cause this was Blackwater. You know, I went to work for Blackwater. They were basically the, the, what would you call it? Subcontractor? The agency's like, I need this many guys. Blackwater's like, we'll find them. They work for us and. We'll give them to you.

• 29:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  You know, and there are only four allotted for the, the agency contract, which is called uh, special programs at the time, or something like that. And so it was an email and it just came from a regular Gmail account, you know, it wasn't like, it wasn't like [email protected], hey, show up here, or [email protected]. It was

• 29:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Whatever.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  [email protected], you know, and it's like, who the hell is Joel at, alright, well, you know, there's your plane tickets. We'll see you here. And, uh, and that's, that's, that's pretty much how that.

• 29:40Anthony Pompliano?

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• 30:23Anthony Pompliano?

  internet for quality crypto insights are over. Messari is your one-stop shop for all your crypto data and research needs. With Messari Pro, you gain access to exclusive, industry-leading, long-form daily research reports, daily crypto news, advanced asset screeners, and curated sets of charts and protocol metrics. You can try Messari Pro today, and listeners of this podcast will get 25% off the Messari Pro membership by visiting www.messari.io/pro and entering promo code POMP. Again, that's messari.io/pro and use promo code POMP. Navigate the market with confidence with Messari Pro. It's kind of how the military works, right? Obviously, once you get into the contracting world and some of the agencies, I think people would like to think they're more sophisticated.

• 31:08Anthony Pompliano?

  But in the military, people basically like, okay, here's your clothes, here's your equipment, and get on this plane, we're gonna take you somewhere, and then you're gonna do what we tell you to do, and then like, you're gonna come back. Okay.

• 31:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So like, there's some, I guess, familiarity with that. When you get there, is it like academic exercises? Cause is it like a tryout? Or is it basically like?

• 31:29Speaker 02

  It's a tryout.

• 31:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  It's a, it's a, they're not there to teach you, they're there to vet you. So it's, it's a tryout. A month-long tryout. And so you show up, and the first thing they do is run you through a physical test. You know, just run push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, you know? I think that's, I think that body drag, drag a 180-pound dummy so many, so many yards.

• 31:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you find it difficult? Or it was like a pretty basic?

• 31:59Speaker 02

  I mean, it's pretty basic. You know, again, it's just, can this guy move? Is he let himself go? Is he injured? You know, shit like that. It's, I mean, it'll get you breathing, it'll get a sweat going, but it's nothing too excruciating. And, which actually, to be honest with you, a lot of guys don't make it through that, which is sad. But like I said, a lot of guys let themselves go. So then, after that, you start getting into a shooting package. And you run that shooting package, you just run drills, drills, drills, drills. And they don't tell you, at least on this one, they didn't tell you times. They don't tell you, they tell you how many shots, and where to line up,

• 32:44Speaker 02

  and do it as best and as fast as you can. And that's it. So it's like, shit, I don't, you know?

• 32:51Anthony Pompliano?

  No slap on the back, no good job?

• 32:53Speaker 02

  No, no nothing, no, well, I mean, like, how fast do I need to be? You know, and, you know, cause you shoot, it sounds like you shoot, so, I mean, you know, the wheels fall off at a certain level there of speed. And so you just do the best you can. And guys, that's really where guys start disappearing. There's two quals that I can't get into. There's a, there's a whole series of pistol quals, there's a whole series of rifle quals. There's two, one pistol qual and one rifle qual in particular, that get... Probably seventy-five percent or more of the guys, um, they don't make it.

• 33:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And is it a difficulty of like what they're being asked to do? Or is it the unknown? And so guys may not try as hard or go as fast or they're like almost succumb to the uncertainty more so than the actual uh, skill they're being asked to uh, kind of display.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  I mean, it's all of it. It's a difficult call and uh, you're coming, you're coming from concealed and shooting a certain amount of rounds in a very show uh, few amount of seconds. And then um, the rifle one is actually a two-minute long qualification, but you only fire, I think, eight rounds and a lot of moving around and stuff, but.

• 34:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're now like, I, I think the best way to describe this, people listening or watching is like, uh, this is now moved from like novice, hey, can you shoot to uh, are you an elite operator?

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Who we can put in certain environments and like you've got a higher probability of succeeding than, than most.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Yes, we, we have an expectation and you're going to meet the expectation or you're not. But go, just rewind it a little bit. So when you do that, you know, you're shooting for a job that's going to pay you more money than you've ever been paid in your entire life, you know? So there's that. Then there's, you know, you're already at an elite level and everybody hates to fail, you know, especially in front of their peers, especially when it's, you know, Green Berets, Delta guys, SEALs, uh, you know, MARSOC guys, Force Reconnaissance guys, Paracord PJs. It's all, it's competitive, you know? And so if you're the SEAL that failed the fucking call, shame on you, you know? So you have that and then you have the difficulty of the actual qualification as well.

• 35:11Anthony Pompliano?

  And do you yet know as you're going through this, what's on the other side? Like, are you far enough into the process now where you know, hey, this is CIA? This is the types of things that uh, I would be going and doing? Uh, or is it still like, just do this, we're vetting you and we'll tell you later, you know, what your job's going to be?

• 35:29Speaker 02

  It's very no talking and um, yeah. So you don't know until you're, until you've completed it successfully. And um, looking after all my interviews that I've done, I think that they tried to model it maybe a little bit off of uh, what Delta, what Delta guys go through. And um, and so yeah, it's very, it's very professional, it's very.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Minimal conversation, it's very direct conversation or instruction. And it's just, don't talk back, just do what you're asked to do. Don't try to get a bunch of attention, you know, just, just show up, perform and go home.

• 36:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. For, for those who haven't read, there's a book Masters of Chaos that I think really kind of outlines the qualification course and a lot of the Green Beret process. And what I think is so interesting about that is like, there's a period that's very regimented, which is, we are going to instruct you, we are going to vet you, we are going to do all this. There's usually almost no certainty. So let's go for a run. We're running for a mile, we're running for 10.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's go for a walk. Again, have this, be here at this time, and I will tell you then at that point what you're going to do. But then there's a entire part of the vetting process, the Robin Sage event, where it's very much, hey, this is the objective, this is the goal, and it's towards the end. And so it's interesting that that training is regimented with uncertainty, and then there's basically certainty in the objective at the end, but there's not a lot of regimented instruction in terms of how to accomplish the objective.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:12Anthony Pompliano?

  And so they almost hit both sides. Is that similar to the, the vetting?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  It is.

• 37:15Anthony Pompliano?

  At the CIA?

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Especially in the next portion. So then you get through the shoot walls. And if you get through the shoot walls, then you go to basically tactics, which is driving, then you do a lot of CQB, which is clearing houses, you know, and, and that, the driving doesn't really get anybody. CQB, excuse me, it does start to get a lot of people. And it's tough because, once again, same thing, you're shooting for a job, you're being critiqued by people that you don't know. You don't even know if they're, you know, if it's, if they're subjective to, you know. And, and then on top of that, you're working with guys

• 37:58Speaker 02

  that you've not only not worked with, but are, that are from different units that do it a different way. And so then, in that portion, it's how does this guy think on his feet? Can he process fast by entering a room and not be shooting innocents and unknowns and and killing hostages and all that? And how does he, how does he adapt? How do these guys adapt working with each other?

• 38:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Interesting.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Who do it completely different ways?

• 38:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  And so that gets a lot of guys and, and that gets a lot of egos brought out too, because everybody thinks their way is the fucking best, right? Well, we all know there's a thousand different ways to skin a cat, you know, pick one and, and, and go with it and, and be able to operate at the level of your, you know, the guy that you're entering the room with or your team.

• 38:47Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you're talking about kind of different units having different styles, the Navy SEALs may do it one way, Green Berets do it another, right? You kind of go down the line. What is that like? So you're like, okay, we're gonna go clear this house. For those that may not know some of the details, there may be specific tactics around, hey, when we enter the door, if the door opens a certain way, I go left, I go right, I button hook, I, I clear a certain way, I, I am able to cover people a certain way. Is there a discussion before you do it? Or is it more so kicking the door and let's not shoot each other?

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Kicking the door, let's not shoot each other, let's not shoot any innocents. And, and, and you don't know what you're walking into. So they had, here's another scenario. So then you get through that and then at the end, they really tie it all together. And one of the drills was they put a hood over your head.

• 39:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Ooh.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Put it, they give you a rifle or a pistol. You don't know if it's loaded, you don't know if, if it's unloaded, you don't know if it's jammed, you just have this, if they put a hood on your head, then they give you a weapon, you know? And you don't know what condition the weapon's in. And then there's all these role player, it's simunition rounds, which is basically kind of like high speed paintball. And so they have all these role players in there. And you lift the hood up and it, it might be a bunch of bad dudes that look bad that are coming at you, but they're not really coming at you. And a lot of guys will get amped up and they. They'll shoot. You're done. Get out.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  You know, you can't handle it. And then the next, but you'll run through like, I don't know, three to five iterations, I think.

• 40:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that how quick the feedback loop is? So like, literally, you've got the bag on your head, you're standing there, you got a gun, they pull it up, and in the next 30 seconds, if you do something stupid, or they deem out of bounds, literally on the spot, they say, you're done, get out?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 40:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 40:47Anthony Pompliano?

  People get pissed?

• 40:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Or it's not the environment?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  They get upset, but it's not really, I mean, it's just, you're just, I mean, if you fail, I mean, it's that, it's, it's, it's humiliating.

• 40:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  And, uh, and, and there's a lot of shame. I didn't see anybody get pissed. I saw guys get pissed afterwards and try to argue it, you know, but in the moment like that, no. And if you argue, if you, if you're like, no, I didn't do that, then you're out.

• 41:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  You know, there is no, like I said, there's no conversation. A lot of times, if you, if you do something wrong, you don't even know what you did wrong.

• 41:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  You know, it's just unsatisfactory, back of the line.

• 41:27Anthony Pompliano?

  So when that hood comes up, what are, what are some of the things that I think maybe you, in hindsight, realize they're looking for? Is it the ability to control your emotions? Is it the ability to have accuracy in shooting? Is it, hey, did he check the weapon to even know if it's loaded or not before anything? Like, what are some of the things that maybe in hindsight are obvious that they would be looking for?

• 41:50Speaker 02

  All of the above. I think the biggest, the biggest thing that they're doing is they're, they are dumping a tremendous amount of stress on you, and they want to see that you can keep a level head, you know, and so they want to see when that hood comes up, you be able to process everything that's happening and, and, and, and perform the scenario. And, uh, so that, that could be anything from rescuing, rescuing a hostage, because as soon as that hood comes up, you're in scenario. And so that could be rescuing a hostage, that could be. There's nobody to shoot here. That could be, everybody's a bad guy. That could be a fistfight.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  One time I had the hood pulled up. The hood didn't even come all the way up and just get punched in the face. You know, right, right off the bat. And so the next thing you know, I'm on the ground. And, you know, did you hold on to your weapon when you got smacked? Or did it come flying out of your hand? I mean, a lot of, just all those things. And so, but I think the number one thing there that gets guys, they get too amped up. They can't handle the stress. And then you got a guy who's, he runs at you and might stop and he doesn't have a weapon. And some guys will shoot him, you know, and it's like, well, he was running at me. Well, did he have a weapon?

• 43:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  You know, no, he didn't. Well, maybe he was running because he was trying to get out of the room because you scared the shit out of him because you had a weapon.

• 43:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  And you just killed an innocent, you know, and, and so that's, that's kind of.

• 43:25Anthony Pompliano?

  What you're highlighting here is something I think is counterintuitive for a lot of people. So, uh, in the special operations community in general, there are people who are six, five, 280 pounds and look what you would expect to be a SEAL or, or whatever. But I think I've read the average height and weight is like five, 10, 180 pounds. These are people who, uh, generally don't look like what you would think the Navy SEALs look like in, in, in terms of, uh, at least the way they're portrayed in the movies now. I think Marcus Luttrell's six, five. So like there, there's outliers for sure. But also, uh, not only in what I'd consider like the physical, uh, metrics,

• 44:06Anthony Pompliano?

  but also I think a lot of people would expect SEALs or other special operators to, um, be blood thirsty, to be high adrenaline, to be, uh, egotistical and arrogant and, uh, walk into a room and think, yeah, there's 15 guys in here, but I'm going to knock every single one of these dudes out and, uh, I'm a badass. But you're highlighting that actually they may be looking for somebody who, uh, isn't six, five and, you know, two 80, uh, with, with muscles bulging out of their shirt. They may be looking for somebody who actually has more emotional control than just the, the hard charger. And so, did you ever kind of put it together and understand like maybe why they're doing that?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Oh, definitely.

• 44:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. What, what is kind of in hindsight, what, what do you think is like the big takeaways there?

• 44:48Speaker 02

  I mean, Everything that they're looking, everything that they're looking for just are just, they don't care what you look like. They don't, I mean, obviously you have to have a certain physical standard, but all they want to see. It sounds simple, but it's not, is guys that can perform and analyze situations under extremely high stress. Without freaking out, without curling up in a ball and going in the corner. You know, they just want to see people that can keep their head on straight and actually think themselves out of a situation. No matter how bad it is.

• 45:21Anthony Pompliano?

  So, once you get through the vetting process, is there then a training process on top of uh, kind of the training you'd received as a SEAL? Or is it pretty much, you've met the standard, we know you can do this job, here's an operation, go?

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Later on, uh, there could be training, there's different schools you can go to, uh, once you're in, but that portion, it's, you got the ominous, ominous, welcome to CIA, go to work. You know, and then when you get in, when you go to your, uh, your, when you go on your deployment, that's when you start getting trained by your team. It's kind of like, kind of similar to the SEAL teams where you show up, you think you know everything, you realize you don't know shit, and then the team schools you up on everything you need to know. With that being said, it's, working for the agency is complete, it's just totally different vibe than working at the SEAL teams.

• 46:15Anthony Pompliano?

  In what way?

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Um, I mean, it's more of a, you're not going to get hazed, you know, it's more of a gentleman's, it would be more of a gentleman's course, yeah.

• 46:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  And, um, than that, and it's just, it's a lot more, you have to be a lot more politically correct, you have to worry about people's feelings, you can't just jip somebody's ass because they fucked up. You have to actually, you know, go through steps and, and, which is, nobody coming from special operations is used to that, so that's a challenge in itself, in itself, but getting over there, the first thing you're going to do, uh, when you get to any location, so the training never ends, is figure out where the hell you're working, so, they give you a map.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Mine was Kabul, Afghanistan. That was my first deployment with them and it was, here's a map of Kabul. You need to know every road on this map, starting with the major routes. Then you need to know all the back roads. You need to know how to get to all these venues, which hundreds of venues, and you got two weeks to learn it. And then you're operational.

• 47:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So you have the map. They tell you you need to do this. Do you get in like a car and you drive around and like figure it out? Do you sit down with a big cup of coffee and just like start reading the map? Like, how do you get that amount of detail and information into your brain with high information retention in such a short period of time? Like, what is that process like?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  It is, it depends, you know, where you're at, how big the location is. You know, if you're going to a small, a very small location, you're not, I'll just tell you what I did. So I took the map and I just traced the routes over and over. You gotta know the names because when you do this, they want you to be able to navigate without a GPS, without a map, without, they want to be able to blindfold you, put you somewhere and be like, alright, this is where I'm at. Take us back home, you know, without anything. And so what I did is I took the map and I would just trace all the, the main routes over and over and over until I had that image ingrained, literally at the front of my brain. And then, while I was,

• 48:27Speaker 02

  and then after that, then I would have a mentor. Somebody would be assigned to me and they'd be like, hey, take Sean out, show him a little, show him the, the main routes, you know, a couple of times a day. And, because that's your only job, is to learn. So you do that. And then as more new guys start trickling in, then it's, hey, Sean knows a little bit about the city. Anthony just got here yesterday. Take him out. You guys go out. It is, here's keys. Don't burn the vehicle, meaning don't get compromised. Don't have, you know, don't be out there creating a scene. We don't want the vehicles to get burned, but you need to learn the city. Go drive the city. And so me and you would become basically best friends

• 49:10Speaker 02

  for two weeks. That's all we're doing is just navigating, navigating every little section of the city. So then we'd start breaking down, once we know the, the main routes, then we'd break down sections of the city. And you know every single section. Then they give you a test.

• 49:26Anthony Pompliano?

  We started a conversation around like the apprenticeship model of the SEALs. Very similar here. You're talking about essentially apprenticeship for two weeks where hey, this person knows maybe a little bit more than I do. They're going to offload that information to me. When military units switch out, they do left seat, right seat type stuff where they kind of slowly work in more and more of a unit into the various convoys and operations. And then eventually there's a full handoff and then the new team is 100% of it. Does that speak just like that's the best way to learn in your opinion is like, yeah, you can sit there and look at the map, but like you gotta get out on the road. You gotta have somebody who knows what they're doing and that can drastically accelerate the learning.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 50:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  I definitely.

• 50:07Anthony Pompliano?

  That's what it sounds like.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I took that model everywhere I went for the agency. So, but by the end of that, you don't even, you don't need a map. You don't need a GPS. You can, and the, and the reason they do that is, well, it's for a multitude of reasons. I want you to know what the, where the hell you're going in case something bad happens. Then once you'll be able to adjust on the fly. And when you're working there, everything is, it's, it's very precise times. So if you need to be somewhere, if you need to be on a target, if you need to meet somebody, if you need to snatch somebody, you need to be there damn near on the second.

• 50:43Anthony Pompliano?

  1037, not 1035, not 1039.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so that's why you need to know all those back routes so that if you do get there early, then you're not driving on the same road twice, going through the same area twice. You can weave in and out of these neighborhoods without going by the same house twice. So the people aren't going, hey, what the hell is that vehicle doing? We've never seen that here. It's, it passed by three times and you don't just loiter waiting for somebody to show up. It's, it's all right. Maybe you get to where you're going or the area, maybe five minutes early and then you jet in immediately, you know, on the timestamp.

• 51:24Anthony Pompliano?

  When you're doing this, you mentioned not burning the vehicles, not getting identified. What are you wearing? What kind of vehicles are they? And I'll obviously share whatever you can, but like, are you dressed like people would think of the CIA contractor that they see, you know, the movies? Is it, you've got the local kind of clothing and trying to fit into the, the culture? I'm assuming you're not in a military uniform, you know, what, what, what is that like? And is there any intentionality in what you're wearing, what vehicles you're driving and stuff in, in terms of not being identified?

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, again, it's kind of all of the above. It's, it's situational dependent. Some, some areas you go to, you'll be wearing the same thing every day. Some areas you go to, you're wearing a business suit in the morning and you're wearing a military uniform, fully kitted up, getting ready to go do something by night. And, and they're all, it's just different missions for different things. And, and, and so I can't get into specifics with vehicles and equipment, but you could be driving the most luxurious.

• 52:31Anthony Pompliano?

  The whole thing.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Sedan and, you know, you can think of with all the little gizmos and shit that you would think that would be in there to a beta, a beta.

• 52:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Does this run?

• 52:42Speaker 02

  Piece of crap, you know, something that, and then you get in and you're like, whoa, like, is that a rocket launch? No, I'm just kidding.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  But it's, it's, they're all, they're souped up. And then as far as dress, same thing. It's, you know, you might be going to have a meeting with President Karzai one day and you're all suited up. And then the next day, you know, you're, you're, you're doing some CIA spy shit and you're dressed up like, like the locals and Arab garms and, and, and however the locals dress.

• 53:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. During your time doing the CIA work, do you ever get in a situation where they're, you're like, fuck, they, they know that I'm here?

• 53:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? What, whatever you could share, like, how do you know that they know? And then like, what do you do? Right? And I think, I think of that as like probably one of the more stressful situations you'd be put in without it being full on combat and firefight and, and things like that. So like, how do you kind of navigate? One, identifying like shit, they got me. And then two, like, do you leave? Do you just like, fuck it, I got a gun and if they come over here, I'm shooting or? You could, but uh, how do you know?

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Well, uh, they'll shoot at you.

• 53:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, alright, so usually it's like, that guy doesn't belong here, I'm killing him.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Yep, some, it's not usually, it's, it's, I've had times where I've been walking somebody in and, which we can go over that in a little bit, but I've had times where I'm, I'm, I'm controlling an asset, I'll put it that way. And then we've been compromised and I look out my window and somebody's there point blank shooting at me. Luckily, it's an up armored vehicle, no, you're not gonna crack the vehicle and kill that guy because that's not what you're there to do. And if you do do that, then, I mean, there's other important people in the vehicle, there's, do you know what I'm saying? So it's not, yeah, you could let your ego get to you, crack seals and kill that guy, or you could just go, hey, we're in an up armored vehicle, fuck them, let's get out of here.

• 54:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  You know, before we make a bigger scene. And.

• 54:51Anthony Pompliano?

  And do they kind of know that to some degree? Like, one of the things, uh, in, in my limited experience was like, there almost was this like, uh, we know that if we shoot close to them, they're gonna do X. And like, as long as, uh, we can be antagonistic, uh, as long as we don't kill one of them or, or do anything like, the likelihood that they are going to take the most drastic response, it's not like an airstrike's gonna happen.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And almost in some way, they, they realize that in these situations, and so they're shooting at you and yeah, if they kill somebody, they'd like that, but they don't expect you to fire back? Or is it, no, they're like, down behind a vehicle and they're expecting a full on firefight?

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Both.

• 55:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  But they don't know, they don't, just because they're contacting you, doesn't mean they know who you are. You know, sometimes they do, most of the time, they don't, they just see.

• 55:38Anthony Pompliano?

  A white dude.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  They just see a white boy, you know, dressed up like an Arab and they're like,

• 55:42Anthony Pompliano?

  He doesn't belong.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  That doesn't, that doesn't, nice try, you know, and uh.

• 55:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Cute Halloween costume, Sean.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  They don't even sell those sandals anywhere in Afghanistan. But, you know, but uh.

• 55:55Anthony Pompliano?

  It's because I bought them on the beach in Mexico.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  But uh, so it's, it's, it's, it could be anything. It could be a full on assault like Benghazi. You know, or I've been in safe houses that have been compromised and had hundreds of fighters trying to take us out.

• 56:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 56:10Speaker 02

  To, you know, to what I just described, to, hey, it might just be a mob, you know, surrounding the vehicle. And honestly, those are the worst because you don't know what's coming, you know, it's like, oh shit. Am I, there's women, there's kids, there's bad guys, there's good guys that.

• 56:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's complex.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:28Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I think that's one of the other pieces of war in general that people uh forget. We had a uh, a gentleman who was on uh, from the intel community. And he was talking about like, uh, in Russia, Ukraine, everyone wants to say good guy, bad guy. And war is just fucking complex, right? The good guys can do bad things intentionally or unintentionally. The bad guys can do good things intentionally or unintentionally. And so uh, that complexity from like a macro standpoint or a macro analysis. Okay, I think people can kind of wrap their heads around it. But what you just described, you're sitting in a vehicle in a foreign land where you've been compromised and you're getting surrounded. That alone, if you hadn't passed all the vetting and have the emotional control.

• 57:13Anthony Pompliano?

  A lot of people who, I mean, we saw it literally in 2020, there's cops who just slam on the gas.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And it's like, it's, it's a human instinct. It's, it's not a, I hate these people. It's like, I'm fucking scared.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And you can't do that though. Cause if you do that, we receive on the news.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Right?

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Which revert back to that training I was talking about where they pull the hood up. You're in scenario, right? Well, now it's real. You're in scenario. And yeah, people do, they think it's black and white, but if you're surrounded by, you know, 300 people. And 10 of them are bad guys and they're shooting at you, they shoot at you, you see them. And then, or, or they're shooting at you, then they stop, they hand the, they hand their AK-47 to the pregnant woman standing next to them. Now you, the first thing you see is a pregnant woman holding an AK-47. What do you do while you're being shot at?

• 58:05Anthony Pompliano?

  It's crazy.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  You know, so it really chaps my ass when people are so quick to, you know, burn our guys down.

• 58:13Anthony Pompliano?

  When you were doing this, this is like 2010s, 2012, 2013, or what time period?

• 58:19Speaker 02

  My last, my last pump with the agency was 2015.

• 58:23Anthony Pompliano?

  2015, okay. So in 2008 and nine, when I was in Iraq, there was already talk of like, hey, if we violate the rules of engagement, hey, if we accidentally kill somebody that we're not supposed to kill, or all of those types of things, you're gonna end up on the news, you're gonna get arrested. Like, there was already this fear of the Monday morning quarterback on these situations. Now, the positive argument would have been, it made us think more critically about what we were doing, and so we didn't do dumb shit, because there was always this fear that it would be known and kind of punishment for it. The downside is, there's a hell of a lot of situations, I am 100% positive,

• 59:04Anthony Pompliano?

  dudes probably acted slower than they should have. Thankfully, in many cases, people didn't die. Some of them, maybe they did, because they were scared, right? Is that also true inside of the agencies as well? Or was that just like more of a military thing where it felt like there was extra scrutiny during those times?

• 59:26Speaker 02

  I've, I've never, I don't think that's an agency thing. I think that's a military thing. I think that's, yeah, that's a political type thing.

• 59:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  And, you know, they were pretty good about

• 59:38Anthony Pompliano?

  shielding you guys.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  lifting the reins and letting us do what we need to do to keep everybody safe and, and, and, you know, get rid of the bad guys. But I know exactly what you're talking about, and it was that timeframe.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  We were, I was with the agency and the Marine Corps was actually gonna do the biggest push since Fallujah in Helmand Province, and the new ROEs came out from the Obama administration. It was

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  If you're shot at and the enemy drops their rifle and you shoot, you're done. You're going to jail. And so, yeah, I think that got a lot of people killed that shouldn't have been killed because he chopped the legs off of the guys out there doing the job, you know?

• 1:00:22Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:01:07Anthony Pompliano?

  at home or in one of their 23 hosting facilities around the world. All you need to do to start mining your own Bitcoin is go to compassmining.io today. Again, if you want to get into Bitcoin mining, go check out compassmining.io today. I've told a story before, 2008, 2:30, 3 o'clock in the morning, we're rolling down a known place where our IEDs, we refer to it as IED alley, I think almost every rodent in Iraq at the time was probably known as IED alley. And it goes off, lifts up the first truck, slams down. We kind of go into our normal procedure. And the truck that I'm in,

• 1:01:49Anthony Pompliano?

  we see a dude, two guys, running across a field in the middle of the night with fucking guns. He has to call for permission to engage. And he calls and they tell him at first, no.

• 1:02:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Calls again. No. Finally, by the third or fourth time, they're like, go ahead. And so, long story short is eventually guys go out there, go down, and they walk into an ambush. And I remember just saying to myself, like, again, you are in a war zone. An IED just went off and there's two dudes at fucking three o'clock in the morning running through the field with guns.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't think that they're going to the store.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? You know, type. And so, like, again, it's this weird, complex thing. Because you understand why they're coming up with the rules, because there had been situations that had been negative. They're trying to cover their asses. The fact that you're calling. I mean, it was just like this crazy situation. And I'm thankful that I saw the situation because I understand it better. But it also highlighted, like, there's no way people in the media or kind of the mainstream audience can quite understand how complex those situations are. Where so it sounds like maybe the agency was actually a better place to operate because you didn't have to deal with some of that complexity. And it was more so just get your job done.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. I was in a similar situation, is what you're talking about in the SEAL teams. And it was a no shoot and I still regret it to this day.

• 1:03:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  But, um, but yeah, I didn't have to deal with that at the agency.

• 1:03:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. You mentioned earlier some pretty hairy situations. Your safe house gets compromised, etc. Is there one situation that's like the most dangerous that you could describe in some degree of detail in terms of either you were like, oh, fuck. Like, we're not getting out of here. Or in hindsight, it may have been really, really bad, but maybe didn't even realize it at the time?

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Couple of times. Uh, I've been in, I gotta be careful, you know, how I word this. But yeah, one time I was in a safe house and there were not very many of us at all, just less than 10. You know, in an area that where nobody, nobody else was, nobody else was down there. And.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  When you start getting into surveillance and counter surveillance and spying on people, one of the like, kind of the rule number one is don't be time and place predictable. Don't use the same routes, don't leave your house at the same time, don't go to the same spots every day. Everything has to be random. You don't wanna create what we call like a pattern of life.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Or if you do create a pattern of life, you want it to be a false one. You know, you want your pattern, the pattern of life that everybody else sees. It's, it's, it's a facade. You know, it's

• 1:04:39Anthony Pompliano?

  You're doing it intentionally.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  Yes. Because you're using I want everybody to see me go to Starbucks at eight o'clock in the morning every single day. Everyone from the, you know, I want everybody to see me go to the gym right after Starbucks, you know, and that would be like a, uh, something here. You know, so you, you, you kinda create your facade. Well, we weren't doing that at this spot and it was, this was an, remember I was talking about at the age, or at the SEAL teams, there was this, there was the guys that had been in for twenty years who hadn't done anything and then you have the assholes like me that come in and we'd go do it right away. Well, same with the agency, um, similar. You got all these guys that had been, you

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  know, during the Cold War, they came in, they were doing all these Cold War tactics with Russia, you know, and all that stuff. And then they throw them in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, wherever, right?

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  And they're still using those tactics from a Cold War environment, trying to get those to work in a wartime environment where everybody wants to kill you. It's not a permissive environment. Everybody wants to fucking kill you here. And you'd see a lot of these guys come and making transitions from that kind of a, a career into a wartime environment and it just, it just, without any training or very minimal and it didn't work for a long time because it was, all they cared about was collecting intelligence. It wasn't, it wasn't, hey, we need to, we're gonna be here for a while. Let's, let's not draw them into where we live. Well,

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Nobody wanted to listen and, uh, and I had mentioned, I said, hey, we're being really time and place predictable. We've been to this place, I don't know, three times in the past week. You know, we need to find different routes. We need to alter our times. We need to, you know, meet these people at different places. Didn't want to do it. Very next day, we got hit and, uh, turns out we did get compromised. We had over a hundred Taliban fighters, uh, closing in on our position and bullets, uh, flying everywhere. We really couldn't engage back because we didn't, we couldn't see where everything was coming from or it was too far, uh, for us to engage. And we actually, oh man, we, that

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  started early in the morning and I don't think we got pulled out until two or three AM at night by the British. They had to call in British guys to come get us, uh, from somewhere else.

• 1:07:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  And, um, but.

• 1:07:15Anthony Pompliano?

  And you're just like.

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  I didn't think we were making it out of that.

• 1:07:19Anthony Pompliano?

  You're just like sitting on your hands like, oh, fuck. Or are you guys at least shooting what you can and, and trying to fight back?

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  I mean, we're shooting what we can, but there was, there was, there was a couple of different positions. They had taken over a high where I was building that overlooked our neighborhood and we couldn't, we couldn't see where they were shooting from. So yeah, you could shoot at the building.

• 1:07:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  But you can't see where the hell it's coming from. And they were throwing grenades at, at, uh, anybody that tried to get down, uh, get up the building. They would just throw frags, RPGs, whatever. And then they had another position where all, where these Taliban fighters were massing.

• 1:07:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  And, uh, and then it came out, it actually came out in the news the next day that they were there to get us. And, uh, a lot of things like that happened.

• 1:08:09Anthony Pompliano?

  And so in those situations, um, you are operating with obviously what you guys can see. Are you also getting communications? Like they know that this, uh, these fighters are massing. They're able to kind of give you almost the play by play. I think a lot, uh, for those that, uh, may not know as much about this, uh, it's kind of like a football game. The football game is getting played, but they have coaches up in the box who can kind of see the, the full field. Are you guys getting like intel reports and stuff like that and you're using that to try to fight back? Or is it pretty much, hey, we're doing the best we can to get you there, you know, get there to get you guys, but, uh, you're on your own right now?

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  We were on our own. It was, we're probably gonna die. Let's destroy all the classified information and, uh, and hope for the best.

• 1:08:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Go down, take as many of them with us as we can.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 1:09:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And, um, how do you think about fight or flight in those situations? And, and what's fascinating to me is, uh, you've pretty much already said, hey, we're, we're likely to die here. If we try to run to the vehicles and, you know, go on a high speed chase, it sounds like you're pretty far. It's not like you can just drive down the street to a military base where there's, you know, help or anything like that. If you stay and fight, it sounds like you probably think we're gonna get overpowered here at some point.

• 1:09:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Is it just out of necessity? You, you stay? Or is there a calculation between like, try to run versus stay and fight?

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  There's just nowhere to go.

• 1:09:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  You know, and I mean, yes, it could, it could have been. Me and the two other operators that were on the ground could have evacuated out of there. But when you have.

• 1:09:49Anthony Pompliano?

  What are you gonna do with everybody else?

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  When you have a, a, a chief who's, doesn't take care of himself and he's overweight because he's fucking hot dogs every night. And, you know, you have, you have women who, who aren't gonna do well, you know? Leaving, you have all that ammo there. You have all the classified information there. It's, it's really, it's just not an option.

• 1:10:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:10:14Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I, I think a lot from this story, it reminds me a lot of the Benghazi story, right? Where basically, uh, the most general description is there's the ambassador and kind of his living quarters. There's a safe house or a compound that was uncompromised, from what I understand, uh, previously a couple of miles away. And, uh, there was a potential takeover of the ambassador and he became in danger. And so a number of operators, including CIA, went to try to protect him, evacuate him, et cetera. And then at some point they actually evacuate back to the safe house and are compromised. And now here comes everyone on that location.

• 1:10:56Anthony Pompliano?

  In those scenarios, uh, the operators, I think people have a higher degree of confidence, like. They're fucking trained to survive these situations, to excel in these situations and probably could get themselves individually out or the small group. But to your point, there's people who aren't trained.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:13Anthony Pompliano?

  And so in movies, it is presented as like, hey, everyone shut the fuck up, sit down in this room and like, we got this, we're gonna go and fight and like, you guys just stay here and don't do anything. Is that actually how it plays out? Or are there scenarios where, no, it's like, dude, we're all gonna die. Here's a gun. This is how you pull the trigger and like, get up here with us. And you're asking somebody who maybe doesn't have the right training or as much training to, you know, fight side by side with you?

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  You get, after you've been in, you know, a few of these situations and you see what a basic civilian mindset, because that is what CIA is basically, a lot of, it's a lot of college grads who are really smart, you know, not the best warfighters, but very intelligent college grads.

• 1:12:03Anthony Pompliano?

  They did put intelligence in the name?

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? So hopefully, yes.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, but you get really good at assessing what maybe somebody can handle. And so it might not be, hey, here's a gun. It might be, hey, just let me know if anybody, if you see anybody coming at us through that window, or let me, or watch that door. Let me know if anybody comes through that door. Here's a radio. I want you to tell this person everything that you're seeing right now, you know? And so a lot of times, what I would do in those situations is you give somebody a job and it might not be, and it'll calm them down because then their mind's on something other than, holy shit, all these bad guys are coming to get us. And so in that particular instance, it was, I mean, because

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  they're still, you know, even though he's a fat slob and he can't move, he's still a fucking American, you know, and you can't abandon Americans.

• 1:13:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And been successful enough to achieve, you know, a station chief or whatever. So like, he's not a complete moron.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so, so you give them a job and a lot of, in that particular scenario was, hey, watch communications, let us know what's coming through, you know, on comms. And with the others, it was.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Get all this classified stuff and and and get rid of it.

• 1:13:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  You know, and and so they're busy doing that. And when you do that, also, it doesn't, even if it's just a bullshit job, you know, like, hey, go, uh, make sure the fucking dogs are okay, you know? They're not seeing everything develop. They're not seeing the battlefield develop, no matter if, you know, if it's for the better or for the worse. And so it keeps them a little bit calmer when when they can't see the big picture.

• 1:13:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  And their mind's busy doing other things.

• 1:13:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Is there a flip of leadership in those moments, like, prior to engagement or combat? Is it like, kind of like, the smart people are in charge? And like, we're here to either protect them, execute, you know, orders, whatever. And like, now bullets are flying, shut up, sit down, I'm in control now, and and the operators take over? Or is there more of a balance in like, the more peaceful times?

• 1:14:13Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, a lot of times it's welcomed. It's not shut up, you know, we're in charge now, it's.

• 1:14:19Anthony Pompliano?

  They're like, hey, this is why you're here.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  We do like you.

• 1:14:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  You know, and and it's like, I got it, you know? And that's that's how it plays out a lot. When that's not happening, yes, there's definitely a lot of animosity, especially when it comes to the guys who are doing the cold work, because they're not used to having to work with people like us. Because they're not used to working in dangerous environments. So when when they have to get attached to people like us,

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  egos get involved and it turns into, you know, it could turn into a shit show.

• 1:14:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you look back across military and CIA, what are like, some of the core things that you've been able to take away? As you've gone into the business world and and the podcast and and that type of stuff? Like, there's probably like, the easy stuff of just like, hey, work hard, right? Like, have discipline, that type of stuff. But are there maybe one or two lessons that you learned that you're like, I actually use this much more often than people may realize? That have really helped you kind of in your post military or contractor career?

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  Patience, patience is a big one. And back to that bigger picture, you know, being able to step back and let a situation develop and and look at a bigger picture. Has has really helped me with my business, being able to not just look right here, but hey, let's let's look at all the peripherals and and and forward thinking and planning as well. I there's a lot of forward thinking and a lot of planning that goes into, you know, not just operations, but entire deployments. You know, if you're in a specific area of operation, the the the plan might, it might be a five year plan, you know, and so in in

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  those planning phases and everything, I learned, you know, hey, let's it, I brought it to business, let's do a lot more forward thinking and and and and I'm not talking projections, I'm just talking, you know, if I do this, what's what's gonna happen?

• 1:16:25Anthony Pompliano?

  War game.

• 1:16:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Do you think it helped going from the SEALs? You said you you mentioned that you then went and started doing some real estate stuff, but patience wasn't a key trade of yours, right? Some of the other things that that maybe you found challenging coming out of the military right into the civilian world. Did you feel like the CIA was somewhat of a step, you know, okay, I'm not in the military, I'm not a civilian, there's still danger, there's still, you know, levels of combat, obviously, but it helped almost like offboard you a little bit into the civilian world? Or did it actually go the opposite direction? And like, you felt like it actually compounded some of those problems, you needed to do more work once you got out of contracting to get back into the civilian world?

• 1:17:08Speaker 02

  I would say the CIA definitely was a it was a good, if you paid attention, there's a lot of lessons you you could have learned that helped you in the civilian world and a lot more than in the SEAL teams from my experience, especially when it comes to patience and dealing with people and and and what is and is not socially acceptable. With the SEAL teams, it's, I mean, it's a

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  It's a frat house. It's not a frat house. That's a, that's a horrible description, but you're with a bunch of, you're with 16 guys that you live, eat, sleep, shit with, you know, for your entire career.

• 1:17:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  And so that builds a camaraderie and there's a lot of trust and, and you know, I think you know where I'm going, you know?

• 1:17:56Anthony Pompliano?

  When I, when I think of the military in general, I'm assuming special operations is just, just this on steroids. Um, I always think of it as a high trust environment.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And it's like, whether that's the training, whether it's the fact that we all got uniforms on, whether it's the flag, whatever the, the reason is that can be dissected. But that high trust environment allows you to be super honest with people. People sure get offended sometimes, but like, not as much. Uh, and there's this element of like, you do your fucking job, I'll do my job and like, together as a team will be successful. Whereas I think that, uh, in large corporations, for sure, that doesn't exist, even in smaller teams, society in general, because there's not that high trust environment, you get a lot more of the political correctness, you get a lot more of the, uh, you offended me, right? And, and these things that just, they don't really exist in the military for the most part.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Um, sure, there are the outlier situations, but, uh, it allows for a level of efficiency on an interpersonal level that just I don't see replicated very often. And I think people who are listening or watching to this, um, if you have a friend who you can be like dead on honest with, like, I really appreciate that person.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:05Anthony Pompliano?

  And like, that person will call me back, you're fucking up right now. Right? Uh, but that's like, I'm assuming in SEAL team, it's like 15 other guys who are all willing to do that. And if you're fucking up and you're not listening, might come over there and smack you upside the head and say, hey, I told you, you weren't listening.

• 1:19:20Speaker 02

  A lot of things that happen within a SEAL team are inappropriate in other environments. And, and, um, it would probably be very similar to a firehouse.

• 1:19:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  And, um, that shit does not fly at the agency. And that took me a long time to kind of wrap my head around. I didn't like it for a long time, but the agency does have of, of, uh, a certain sophistication to it that it definitely carries over. You, you just, you learn how to carry yourself and deal with people in a more sophisticated and professional manner, uh, because you have to.

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  As of, is, is, is, um, as you would in the, in the SEAL teams.

• 1:20:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Um, when you came out of the CIA, uh, I've heard you talk about the use of psychedelics. And, um, it, it seems like that really had a profound positive impact on kind of, uh, your ability, uh, across a number of different parts of your life. Talk a little bit about that. Were you just like on the internet one day and like, I'm gonna go try this? Did you have a friend who tried it and suggested it, a doctor? Like, what, what was kind of your introduction to psychedelics? And then what was that experience like?

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  Well, the, no, I wasn't, I didn't read it on the internet. I was actually totally against them. Uh, um, I didn't like anything that I associated with hippies.

• 1:20:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:20:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Communism, psychedelics.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, um, and, and so I didn't even, it wasn't even on my radar, to be honest with it. But then I did this interview with, uh, this, uh, former SEAL Eddie Gallagher. And he had talked about psychedelics in his interview. And, and so I asked him about it. And then he connected me with, um, other people who, who, who started a nonprofit for psychedelic therapy. So I interviewed them and I learned about, a lot about it. Then I started, then it just kept happening. I started seeing former colleagues of mine coming on to my show to interview them. And it was just, I did the psychedelic therapy. My family dynamic changed. My business changed.

• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  My anxiety's gone, a lot of that stuff. And so I did it. I interviewed so many guys, uh, that had gone down and, and, and, and done the therapy that I was like, all right, I'm gonna,

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  you know, I still have my own demons that I need to deal with. I did three and a half years of therapy, talk therapy twice a week. And, uh, which did help me. I would definitely recommend it, but. But um, but then I moved from South Florida to Nashville and that therapy ended. Cause I didn't wanna build the trust with a new therapist. Things started getting out of whack. My business really was expanding. My mind wasn't present anymore. I just had a son. I wanted to be present. My anxiety was turning into anger again and just a lot of the stuff that guys deal with coming, you know, home from combat.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  And so things started getting really out of whack and I made a call and I said, hey, I would like to try this. You know, I've, I've heard a lot of good things and they got me right in. I went down there um, to do it and I did this. I did ibogaine and uh, five MAO DMT. And.

• 1:22:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Where do you go and like, what is, what is the actual process? When you say you did uh, these two specific ones, like is it something that you are ingesting? Are you drinking it? Is it a solid? Like just kind of walk people through. Cause I think a lot of people have heard of psychedelics, but they probably don't actually understand what that process looks like.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  Okay, ibogaine comes from the plant of bogota and which is a root in, I think it's Gabon, Africa. I could be off on that, but um, and so what, what I took was ibogaine, which is um, I've been told is the most powerful psychedelic uh, on the planet. And, and so it was a pill. I think I took four pills and um, and that was like a 12 hour experience. But it's very, it's not like, from my experience, it wasn't going out into the, into the jungle with a, with a medicine man and, and taking psychedelics, which I would totally do now.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  But this was a very controlled medical type environment. It was in kind of a luxurious beach house.

• 1:23:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Um, out of the country and, but before I went down, it was, what are your intentions? Why do you wanna do this? This isn't just, hey, let's take psychedelics, get naked and howl at the moon. It's, it's, why do you wanna do this? What, what do you wanna change about yourself? And, and, and talking to therapists before you go and.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  So I wrote down all these intentions that I wanted and then I got down there and it was, it was EKGs, it was physicals, you know, what medications are you on, we're gonna hook you up to a heart rate monitor when you do it. All this, all this stuff to make it safe. And um, so I did that.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  And when I came out, I had lost eleven, eleven pounds. In twelve hours. Eleven pound, in a week. I didn't weigh myself the whole time, but a week. And I ate, the food down there is amazing. And um, you're eating like four meals a day. Uh, great chef, whatever. I shouldn't have lost weight is the point I'm making. Lost eleven pounds, detoxed eleven pounds of heavy metals out of my system. Uh, my eye color changed, the whites of my eyes changed. Um, my anxiety was gone. My, I, I haven't had a drink in I think nine months now. I didn't even go down there to quit drinking.

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  And uh, and it wasn't, it's not, it's not, uh, it's not hard for me. You know, it's, it just, I just didn't want it. I, it's, it's almost like it showed me, this shit's poison, quit putting it in your fucking body because you're killing yourself. And so sugars went away, caffeine went away, alcohol went away, marijuana went away. Um, and I didn't go down there for any of that. The, the main reason I went down there was just to be in the moment with my, with my newborn son and my wife. Which happened. And then all this other stuff, all these other benefits came. The other thing that happened was I quit, I quit putting that pressure on myself of what does everybody think? What, you know, which really,

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  now I realize that really hindered my business. It was, oh, I don't want to do that because I might offend somebody and the, I think, I think they want to hear this and I can't do that. And it was like, fuck it, I don't care. You know, if I get canceled, I get fucking canceled. And if they don't like, if my audience doesn't like the content that I'm putting out, then I'll find a new audience that will. And, and so it kind of gave me like, I wouldn't say courage because I've always had courage. It just gave me this. I don't fucking care. I'm gonna do what I want to do finally. And, and when I came home and then, and then you add in, you know, the no drinking, you don't have that morning fog anymore. And, and man, it was like my business was always on an upward trajectory. And then after that, it went straight up.

• 1:26:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Um, why did you lose the weight? Is it like ayahuasca? I've had people come on and describe it as like, I'm throwing up, I'm shitting, I'm, you know, like literally purging my body the entire time. Is it a similar type of experience? Or was it something else?

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  Well, it's a heavy metal detox. So, you know, just think of all the heavy metals, the burn pits, the ammo, the bombs, the everything that, that you've ingested when you were in Iraq, you know? And, and I don't know how long you're over there, but that shit stays in there, you know? And so when that stuff gets sucked out of you, you know, by the Iber game, that's, that's, that's a lot of weight.

• 1:27:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Did you feel stronger when you came back? Like, did, did you feel, so you lost weight? How did you feel physically? Uh, it seems like you're mentally were much clearer, kind of all, all these benefits. What about physically? This episode is brought to you by Exodus. Accessing Web3 across multiple networks just got a hell of a lot easier. Exodus is one of the most popular crypto wallets for mobile and desktop, and they just added Chrome and Brave web browsers to the lineup. The new Exodus Web3 wallet is a multi-chain browser extension that lets you safely navigate Web3 and DeFi apps on Ethereum, Solana, and Algorand from one wallet. Manage, mint, and sell NFTs on multiple networks in one wallet. You can swap Solana and ETH tokens

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• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  It's not, uh, like, are you asking if I'm better in the gym or if I just felt healthier overall?

• 1:29:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Both.

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I felt a lot healthier overall.

• 1:29:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's like, it was like, it almost felt like a true detox that I think people aspire to have when they do, whether it's fad diets or whatever, that's what really what they're looking for is I want to be healthier, I want to look better or whatever as well.

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:29:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Um, you mentioned a second psychedelic that you took as well. Uh, you did those together in the same week?

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  Yes, you ended with this stuff called 5meodmt, which is a toad venom.

• 1:29:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:29:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Toad venom sounds way cooler than the scientific.

• 1:29:55Speaker 02

  But, uh, it's, it's, they call it a, they call it the bliss drug. Um, it's an ego death. You, you, this sounds weird. Have you ever done any psychedelics?

• 1:30:06Anthony Pompliano?

  I've never done any of them and, uh, it's something that I find fascinating. I've got friends who have built a number of psychedelic companies and he's been talking about it forever. And so, uh, I actually think there's like two or three people who I've heard talk about it. You're one of them, uh, in that we have similar types of backgrounds, probably similar interests, things like that. You're very different than I think most people who talk about it, right? Uh, and so I'm interested, uh, in understanding more.

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  So five, five MEODMT gives you, it's, it's, you die. It's a death experience.

• 1:30:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  And I know that's, I know how hard that is to wrap your head around, but those who've done it definitely understand, but you, you, there is no doubt in my mind that if I die a peaceful death, this is exactly what I'm going to experience.

• 1:31:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, explain more in terms of when you say you die, like mentally, there's like anguish and you're like, this fucking sucks. Is it like a physical thing?

• 1:31:10Speaker 02

  It's the most profound experience of my entire life and, and I don't, I don't say that lightly.

• 1:31:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  But I'll just go through the experience. So you smoke this and you smoke this and they say count backwards from 10. I hit about seven and it was lights out, but you're just sitting there, you fall back into the, you know, the pillow or whatever. I wanted to do it outside because I, with no blindfold, usually they do it blindfolded inside, but I wanted to be in nature because I'd always heard, you know, hey psychedelics makes you feel like you're in it, you're in nature. And so I did it. The first thing I felt was,

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  I felt more anxiety and fear all at once than I had ever felt in any other experience of my life, to include thinking I'm going to die in a safe house because we're getting overrun by bad guys, to include somebody shooting at me point blank, to include all the shit I saw on the teams. And this was more fear and more anxiety than I'd ever felt. And it literally, it literally felt like.

• 1:32:30Speaker 02

  Like just all this bad, negative shit was getting sucked out of my veins and um. And that probably lasted for about thirty to forty-five seconds. And I just, I just kept telling myself, just let it, let, just let go. I think a lot of, there are guys that have bad experiences with this stuff because I don't think they have. I don't say this in a bad way, but I don't think they have the courage.

• 1:32:58Speaker 02

  To let go because it is the, it's the feeling that you're dying. Like if there's no doubt in your head that you, that you're dying. And you know, I've, I've got a family. So that was the only thing left that I was holding on to is I was like, fuck, my fucking son needs me. My wife needs me to help raise my son. But then it was, I was like, I have to die, I have to, I have to do this and. And I, I let go. And man, like the next thing you feel is just like. Pure bliss and. And you realize every, everything that's happened to you, good, bad, everything in between.

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  It was, it's all.

• 1:33:48Speaker 02

  All had a purpose. It was all, everything happened just the way it's supposed to happen. And when it came to my wife and son, leaving them, um, and, and, and, and kind of succumbing to this death. I realized that's okay too, you know, it's like. They're, it's okay because they're gonna wind up here. And this is. It's, it's. Freedom. It is pure freedom. There's no ego. All your insecurities. Are gone. You, you know, like.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  None of that shit matters. Um, and so I sat up and I opened my eyes. And you know, uh, you hear people talk about, oh, the, the energy and, and bad energy and good energy. And I always looked at these people like, you're fucking crazy. And I opened my eyes and I saw, I didn't see anything that wasn't there. A lot of people have, uh, that wear the blindfold. They have, um,

• 1:34:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Hallucinations?

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  Yes, they have hallucinations. I didn't have any hallucinations. Mine was more intuitive. And what I felt and what I saw was just the transfer of energy through everything, through the sky, through the birds, the trees, the grass, the ocean, the islands. Off the ocean, everything. You could feel it, you know, transferring from the grass into your feet. And when you hear people say, you know, everything is one, that, that's the, that's the first time that I ever felt. And knew I was like, holy shit, we're all fucking one thing here. This is, so if I, you know,

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  reach over the table and, and try to fight you, I'm just fighting myself. It's really, it's really hard to describe.

• 1:35:40Anthony Pompliano?

  This is why I'm so interested in somebody like you who's gone and done this because I have the same reaction, right? Like, um, my wife's got a couple of friends that talk about crystals. If I hear about fucking crystals one more time, I'm like, shut up, right? This shit is all bullshit.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, uh, energy, like all, all, uh, everyone's heard all this stuff, right? I'm like, okay, sure, guys, whatever. Um, other than maybe like memes and vibes on the internet. Maybe I'm a little bit of a believer there, but, but other than that, uh, and then I, I hear you talk about this and it's like, look, you're, you're a, I'll call you a normal dude, right? And in terms of like, it's not like you were into a bunch of like woo woo stuff up until this point. And then the way that you describe it, you're like, oh, it's, it changed my life, right? And, and I think that the, it's almost the contrast before and after that's so fascinating to me.

• 1:36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:28Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and it sounds like when you came back, a bunch of good stuff started to happen.

• 1:36:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you change anything when you came back? Like, like action wise? Okay. So you, you mentioned things you took away, right? In terms of alcohol and caffeine, things like that. What else do you notice that you changed?

• 1:36:48Speaker 02

  Man, I just, I quit listening to all the bullshit. You know, I quit, I quit listening to what I thought

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  social media wanted me to do with my business. I quit, uh, guilt, you know, we all deal with a lot of guilt. It's, it's how do I tell this person I don't want to do this? Or how do I, I just don't feel it anymore, you know? And it's starting to come back a little bit, but it's, it, and, and because you're not focusing all your energy on, well, I don't want to hurt Anthony's feelings and, and because I don't want to fly down for his podcast. So how do I tell him this? And why the fuck is that person thinking that about? You know, instead of worrying about all this shit, it's, hey, man, I, I, I can't make it down. Or, you know, family, you know, I can't, I can't do it. I have this and it, and, and it takes, it takes the guilt away.

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  And if you think about how much time you waste on trying not to offend somebody or trying not to make somebody feel bad, or when somebody, you have to get asked all the time, could you just, could you, can you do this for me? Can you do that? You know, it, you don't feel bad saying, using the word no anymore. And it's just, no, I'm not, I'm not going to do it.

• 1:38:01Anthony Pompliano?

  I noticed that there's momentum with the use of the word no. There's something I've been thinking about recently. If I start to say no to people, it becomes easier, like the rest of the week or, or that month or whatever. And then if I become undisciplined and I say yes once or twice, next thing you know, I'll say yes to everything. Like, like there is this momentum or, or almost like, uh, maybe confidence. I, I don't know how you would describe it, but it's like, if you have the ability to say, starting today, I'm going to say no to people I, I want to say no to, it is easier.

• 1:38:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31Anthony Pompliano?

  And, and I don't know if it's like an identity thing, like I'm somebody who says no. I don't know if it's literally momentum or whatever, but it does feel like, uh, people who say yes to a couple of things, say yes to everything. People who say no are very disciplined in when they say no. And so it almost feels like just getting the right directional, like path of progress i- i- is an important piece to it. Sounds like this was a moment where it really set you on a certain path and you've just kind of stayed on that.

• 1:38:57Speaker 02

  That's I'd never thought of it like that. That's a great way to put it. But um, yeah, you know, I just I started. I finally started saying no. And and because I was, you know, somebody told me once, it was actually my mother in law said, every time you say yes to somebody, you're saying no to somebody else. And so I've always thought about that. And then after doing the psychedelics, I was like, shit, you know, she's right. And so I took all that energy of doing shit for people that they don't even really give a fuck if you're doing it for them. If they say, if you say no, they're just on to the next person, right? Hey, could you? And so I took all that energy and applied it to my family and my business and myself. And that's when things really, really started coming together for me.

• 1:39:44Anthony Pompliano?

  As you've gone through your career, you've had kind of, I'll call it three or four different careers, right? You had kind of the SEALs, CIA, what you're doing now at a minimum. Do you still have the same friends? Do you still have the same like peer group through all of that? Or have you found that either through necessity or or benefit that you've kind of changed over time? Right? And I think about this from the perspective of like, if it's an intentional thing, right? So you go from the SEALs to the CIA, CIA to kind of the business world. If you don't have the same friend group, they may be offended. Oh, he thinks he's too good for us. Oh, he he now doesn't have time for us or whatever. Do you experience that at all?

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:40:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 1:40:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, hell, yeah. Right? And and

• 1:40:34Anthony Pompliano?

  I mean, there's people who will listen to this and be like, he's talking about me. And there's people who listen to this, but he's definitely not talking about me. But some of them are intentional, right? Some of them are like, hey, this person is not conducive to what I'm trying to accomplish. And like, they're the energy vampire, whatever you want to describe it. But like, sorry, dude, right? Usually dudes. Just honestly, I don't have time for this.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:57Anthony Pompliano?

  And in those cases, to me, I don't feel guilty. I actually like, that's easier for me to deal with because I'm making the decision. It's the people in your life that like, you're just focused on what you're doing. And so like, there's not as many intersection points or like as much time that overlaps. And you just kind of grow apart. I still feel sometimes guilty to some degree. Or like, I'm like, damn, I wish it wasn't this way. And I almost have to like, yeah, but that's just the way it is.

• 1:41:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:23Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't know. What about you?

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  Well, I was gonna ask, have you figured out how to filter it yet? I'm still working on this. How I filter it.

• 1:41:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, how do you do it right now?

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  I filter it. I.

• 1:41:37Speaker 02

  I try to filter it is when it comes to friends, who, who can you tell your successes to? Without people getting jealous of where you're at in life. And that's what I'm really starting to figure out is. You can't, you can't be fucking around with people that aren't happy for you. If they're not happy for you. The only reason they're not happy with you is they're not happy with their own fucking performance. But they're not willing to do anything. To up their performance, they're just gonna keep you down. Wherever they're at. And so. When I, when I think of who I can tell my successes to, it's probably tell them to, you know. Five people, if that. And so that's who I concentrate all my energy on and everybody else, you know, if we were friends.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  And, and you're not happy for me now, that doesn't mean we're not, I hate you, or I'm not gonna talk to you, but I'm not gonna focus much energy on you anymore because. I know there's always gonna be that underlying resentment, you know, and that jealousy. And it, and that shit's toxic, you know, it is toxic.

• 1:42:39Anthony Pompliano?

  I had a, um, I went to a dinner and it was a dinner I should not have been at, there was. Four or five different billionaires there and they're all friends and so you're at this dinner, maybe there's. Eight to 10 people, whatever it was. And you already feel like a little bit of an outsider, right? Cause like they're all friends and you're like, Jesus, like some of you. In a business sense, I look up to you, I wanna learn from you, like all this stuff. And, uh, the things that they were talking about at this dinner. I was looking around and I was like, you guys sound like the most arrogant fucks. Ever heard, right? But what I realized was, no. Like, like a- after I left the dinner, I was like, these guys grew up together.

• 1:43:21Anthony Pompliano?

  They literally had nothing and so they used to talk about like the first customer they got together. Right? And they'd come and they'd be like, oh, I, I got my first customer, like, oh, that's cool, like, you know, whatever. And it's risen and now they're talking about, do you wanna buy, you know, a $50 million boat together? And none of them were judging each other because it was like they had risen up to this level of success. But they also were on the same level as well. So it wasn't like, uh, one of them was a billionaire and the other, you know, was unemployed. And so like if the billionaire was like, I think about buying this boat, the other person's like, well, fuck you, you know, I'm trying to find a job. And so there was like the path together, I think, kind of created some camaraderie, but also the ability to talk to people who didn't judge them, even though they were talking about

• 1:44:04Anthony Pompliano?

  things that everyone else in the world would be like, that's what you're worried about. You're literally worried about like, you can't find staff for your boat, right? I'm just making up whatever. But to the other ones, they're like, no, I can't either.

• 1:44:17Anthony Pompliano?

  How are you trying to solve that problem? And so it sounds similar to kind of what you're talking about of just like the people who want to see you successful, the people who you feel comfortable sharing the truth with are actually the people who you end up kind of spending your time with.

• 1:44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I'm, I don't think it always has to be like levels.

• 1:44:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  I think, I think it just has to be who's happy for you, who's happy with themselves. You know, I mean, because you see this, that would be like a financial or business scenario, but then you have family scenarios and, you know, you get a lot of people who, I don't know what your family situation is, but if it's good, you probably have a lot of people who are in a shitty family dynamic, who are jealous of what you have with your wife and your kid. You know, we see that, me and my wife see that, or, or, you know, they're, they're jealous of your business. They're jealous of, people get jealous on how many followers you have on Twitter, you know, and, and, and so when you see that, when I see

• 1:45:19Speaker 02

  any of that come out, I'm like, all right, we need to pull back here and, and concentrate more on, on, on these people because they're happy for us. They're happy in their lives. And does that make sense?

• 1:45:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it makes a hundred percent sense. And, and actually, when you mentioned things like social media, I've talked to people who have immense, millions of subscribers on YouTube or whatever, and every once in a while, they'll say something to me to the effect of like, sometimes I wish I could go back and have none.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Because you mentioned earlier, like what your audience wants. Some of them are like, hey, you know, there's one person I'm thinking in particular, he's one of the top 15 YouTubers in the world. He's like, when I started doing this, I had certain interests. Those aren't the same interests I necessarily have today, but I feel like I got a job now.

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:05Anthony Pompliano?

  And like they've almost become, the audience is the boss, which is a little weird as well, right? Do you feel that sometimes?

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  I did before psychedelics.

• 1:46:15Speaker 02

  Now I don't.

• 1:46:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk about the business that you have built. Like, how do you think about what it entails? And like, what are you trying to accomplish, right? I always think of like, businesses have some sort of mission or goal that they're going after. Like, what are you driving towards there?

• 1:46:30Speaker 02

  You know,

• 1:46:34Speaker 02

  everybody, it's everybody's, it's all preparation, right? I want to make more money so that my kid can go to the best private school. I can get the car I want. I could live in the good neighborhood. I don't want to be in a neighborhood with a bunch of crime and da, da, da, right? It's all money and possessions and stuff like that. And I don't think a lot of people invest for what's coming after this life. And in, in,

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  whether that's, you know, whether you believe in some type of religion or whatever. I just believe if you inject good into this world, then good shit is going to come your way. And that's all I fucking care about, man, is I want, you know, I, I, we do heavy, heavy, heavy interviews where I'll bring, you know, a Delta guy to his most vulnerable state that he's ever fucking been in, you know, mentally. And because he's there, or I go there, or whoever's on the show goes there, that, that lets everybody, because he's a Delta guy, or because I'm a SEAL and a CIA guy, or because you're a, you know, business phenomenon.

• 1:47:49Speaker 02

  You know, people look at that and they're like, well, fuck it, that guy, if that guy could admit that and, and, and then I can do that. Or if that guy can work on himself and admit these faults, then I can do that. And if he can get, if he's been through all that shit, I can get through my little mess, you know, and.

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  And that's one aspect. The other thing I like to accomplish is I'm, you know, with podcasts, a lot of people, all they care about is I need to get, I need to get the guy with a million followers on my show because everybody's gonna wanna listen to it. I never listened to that shit. I always liked getting the guy that nobody would give the fucking time of day to because he's new, starting a business, you know, struggling, grinding it out, and I can pull him and be like, hey, man, I see what you're doing and you're fucking doing a good job and, and I wanna give you an audience that you probably never would have had exposure to. And, and I'm lucky, you know, and I use it for good, but when people come on my show, their fucking business goes

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  through the roof. And so I'm very selective on, on, on who I bring on, especially when it comes to, you know, the former military guys or, or the CIA guys, but I bring them on and the audience gets to learn all these lessons. Their business takes off. They learn a lot. Uh, I'll, I'll do a lot of consulting, you know, for the guys after the show. Um, after release, I'll make sure like, hey, man, are you ready for this shit? Because, you know, like I just did this guy Cody Alfred and I called Cody, like the day before his episodes release. I'm like, hey, what are you doing? You know, are you ready? You're gonna fucking blow up. And he

• 1:49:35Speaker 02

  didn't believe me and he's like, man, I just, it's rough. My best friend just died.

• 1:49:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Tell a little bit about Cody's story because I think he's actually like a pretty interesting, uh, uh, maybe example.

• 1:49:47Speaker 02

  Cody?

• 1:49:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, of the types of people that you would bring on.

• 1:49:50Speaker 02

  Cody, normal guy, you know, didn't grow up in a, in a wealthy family, wasn't like a super athlete, anything. Joined the Marine Corps, was the fastest guy ever in the Marine Corps to make E8. Um, was one of the, was one of the first guys, uh, to stand up Marsoc, phenomenal operator, phenomenal, like, the guy's just a-

• 1:50:15Anthony Pompliano?

  The badass.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  He's, he's, he just wins at every fucking thing he does. And-

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  No matter what the struggle is, he overcomes it. So just phenomenal career, phenomenal operator, um, a very, just a solid human being. Call him up, he's, he's a little depressed, his best friend had just died, uh, obviously understandable. His business, he's grinding, grinding, grinding, he's not getting a fucking break.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  And he's like, man, I just, I don't have any shirts in stock, I don't have this, I don't have that. And I'm like, what the, I was like, hey, man, this fucking opportunity is not going to come again. I was like, so here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna fucking do a pre-sale on all your fucking shirts.

• 1:51:03Speaker 02

  You're gonna stand up a Patreon account, you're gonna get your online coaching going, and you're gonna have all this shit on your website by tomorrow.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  And he's like, people don't like pre-orders. I was like, I was like, you don't get it. I was like, nobody gives a fuck about your apparel. They give a fuck about you. And what you just told me on that show, people are gonna wanna support you. They don't care if you're selling fucking bathwater. They're going to buy it because you shared your darkest, deepest, most inner vulnerabilities and insecurities. And they're gonna take that, learn from it, and they wanna support you. And sure as shit, you know, I talked to him a week after, and he's like, man, he's like, I just had the biggest month. You can take every month of last year, put it together, and it wouldn't be the month that I just had after your show.

• 1:51:55Speaker 02

  And I was like, fucking a man, keep it going, you know, but, um, so to be able to do that, you know, is a big responsibility and, and, and it's, it's a gift. And it's putting good into the world, because Cody has a great message. He's a solid human, he's a good person, he's putting out things that are helping people. And really, all I did was just give him a platform to tell everybody what he's doing, what he's been through. And, and boom, and I've done that with, you know, a lot of people. Number of them. So.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  That's what I get out of it. Anything else, you know, it's kind of icing on the cake and, and, and I've always been a believer that if, if, if you do good and you just, the money's gonna be there. You know, I, I think the money's, it's just, it's gonna be there. And for me, you know, business and money was there, you know, it took a while, but that's what I get out of it.

• 1:52:50Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up with the gummy bears?

• 1:52:52Speaker 02

  The gummy, the gummy.

• 1:52:54Anthony Pompliano?

  I think, I think the first, um, I haven't told you this yet. Uh, I think the first episode I ever saw was when he did, uh, DJ Shipley.

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53:01Anthony Pompliano?

  And, uh, I didn't know who you were, didn't know anything about it. Somehow YouTube recommended it. Shout out to Susan and the YouTube team who, uh, you know, great, great recommendation algorithm.

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  (laughing)

• 1:53:12Anthony Pompliano?

  And, uh, uh, I clicked on it. I don't frankly, I don't even remember why. I don't remember what the title was, whatever, but like I, I clicked on it and, uh, you had like a, a piece of the interview up front, I think. I remember being like, oh shit. Okay. And I saw it. There was like three hours. I'm like, oh fuck, I got like five minutes.

• 1:53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28Anthony Pompliano?

  So I'm like, let me, let me save this one. And I remember, uh, that night I sat down to go watch it and, uh, my wife was coming in and out of the room and about 20 minutes into it, she goes, what the fuck are you watching?

• 1:53:40Speaker 02

  (laughing)

• 1:53:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Sitting here listening to these two dudes talk, whatever. And, but I was hooked, right? And I was just like, okay, like this is gonna be a great conversation. As I went further and further, I was like, oh, this is, uh, two guys who have very unique experiences in the world, but there's that high trust environment. They're gonna talk about things in a way that just isn't gonna be done elsewhere. And then, I don't know, a couple minutes into the interview or whatever, all of a sudden it's a fucking ad. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool ad. Then I realized it was ads for your gummy bears. And I was like, what a fucking guy. He's got all these badass guys coming in, having these great conversations, but he's selling gummy bears. If I ever talk to him, I'm gonna ask him, what is up with the gummy bears?

• 1:54:17Speaker 02

  (laughing)

• 1:54:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So what, where did the gummy bears come from? What, why did you say, hey, we should go actually have a product with gummy bears? What, what is this?

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  So it kind of started, so before I did the Sean Ryan Show, I was teaching tactics, how to clear rooms, shooting tactics, shit like that. And every time I enter a space, I like to research what, what is happening in the space. So.

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  I started training, started building social media and I was looking at what everybody else is doing. What are, excuse me, what are all my peers doing? Well, they're all acting like hard asses. They don't eat anything but protein shakes and chicken breasts. They never have any fun. They're always serious. You know, they look like an asshole. So I was like, all right, I'm gonna do the exact fucking opposite. (laughing) I was like, I was like, I'm a SEAL CIA guy, so people are already scared shitless of you just knowing that about you. So we have to disarm them if they actually want to learn anything. And so, and, and, and make yourself approachable and, and, and allow people to realize, oh, this guy's just a fucking human. And so, how I did that is

• 1:55:28Speaker 02

  I started, I, when everybody else was posting their, their milkshakes that they're taking in the morning and their testosterone shots and their chicken breasts, I was like, I like fucking donuts and milk duds and gummy bears and ice cream and I'm a human. I like, I like candy. Sugar tastes good. And, uh, and people like that, you know, and so, and I, I, so that's kind of how it started. And then, you know, I was just looking, people like, oh, well, you have to have apparel, you have to have products to sell. And so I was like, all right, well, I have sleep problems, let's do CBD gummies. And we'll, we'll make a CBD gummy line and,

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  and, uh, whatever. And my marketer was like, don't do that. You're gonna get sued for marketing to kids. So I said, all right, fine, we'll just do regular gummy bears. And, um, so I was like, all right, let's just order, let's find them, make them and market them and see what happens. And it just took off. And, uh, just, just regular gummy bears. And so, so it just stuck, you know, and then we ordered more and they sold out and then we ordered more and they sold out. So now it's It's just like this staple of my business.

• 1:56:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and you obviously do a great job kind of integrating into the show and you get the ads and all that stuff. Is it something that you want to take and put into stores and kind of grow, you know, as if you were a candy company, I guess? Or is it something that just like, no, we want to keep doing the content and have the conversations and that? And this is just, you know, a thing that is part of what we do, but it's not really going to be a massive focus.

• 1:57:10Speaker 02

  I would love to get something in stores, but I don't, I don't think that's the, I don't think that's the product because nobody's going to go to Walmart and buy a $10, a $10 bag of gummy bears when they can get three times the size of a different kind of gummy bears for three bucks. So it's a, you know, it's a novelty item and it's a way for, for people that like what I'm doing to, to support me. And so I'll probably just keep that online, you know?

• 1:57:39Anthony Pompliano?

  And as you think about the content itself, one of the things I noticed is it's very high quality. Right. It seems like you've been one, very thoughtful, but two, really focused on the quality.

• 1:57:51Anthony Pompliano?

  You've got the interviews. Do you have aspirations and kind of plans to do things outside of just the interviews? Or like, how do you think about like other pieces of content?

• 1:58:02Speaker 02

  I started, I started doing a lot of, I spent a lot of time dabbling in different projects. And, and so everything from going up to Alaska and doing like a quasi-survival series to going down to Tijuana and doing a whole cartel like, kind of, kind of cartel border, southern Mexico or northern Mexico kind of newsy type content that most people won't do because they're too scared to go get in those neighborhoods and do it. But where I'm going is, is.

• 1:58:43Speaker 02

  After the psychedelics, I decided it would be best to just concentrate on one thing and make that one thing really, really, really good. And so that's what I've done and I think I will just, I will continue to build this show up and instead of doing all these different types of content, getting more diverse guests is kind of where I'm headed.

• 1:59:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. I really enjoy the conversations and I always think about conversations are only as good as the questions they ask. What's the research process like that that you kind of go through and then how do you determine what are the questions you'll ask versus the things you're like, eh, I could ask, but not really something that either you're interested in or you think will be valuable for the audience?

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  I used to do, I used to do a ton of research.

• 1:59:27Anthony Pompliano?

  I think the DJ Shipley one, you had like a whole notebook full of questions, it seemed.

• 1:59:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did. And I used to do a ton of research and then I kind of just got into a groove and I got better to talking it, talking with people. And so sometimes I'll just go in there with no plan at all. And a lot of times those wind up being the best ones. But, and now I can do that with the operator type guests is I kind of know, I have a flow. I know a little bit about them, you know, and it's easy to research because I can ask around about them, but I really hindered my business with research early on.

• 2:00:11Speaker 02

  It was, I put so much fucking pressure on myself to know everything about the guests that's coming on. I tried to read every book they wrote. I'd try to, you know, do their online training programs and it hindered my business. So I was condensed it and then if I can, I just shit can it, to be honest with you. And, and what I go off of now is I just got really good at reading the guests. I know what they're willing to do. I know what they're not willing to do. And, and I always push the limits with the questions, you know, I ask the questions that the people don't want to ask. And like here's an example, I just interviewed, this hasn't come out yet, but I just interviewed this guy.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  Who in his childhood, he had a peeping Tom for four years in his window. His parents didn't believe it. Then his dad became abusive and uh and um and I could and he'd been through a ton of shit in the military. Um Marsa guy.

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  And he started standing up. He started, he didn't want to get into the abuse uh from his, from his father. And so normally people would just go, okay, well, he doesn't want to talk about it. Let's go on. We didn't want to talk about it. So I said, hey.

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  It doesn't appear to me that you don't want to talk about this because of what happened to you. It appears to me that you don't want to talk about this because you want to stand up for your fucking abuser. And I was like, all you're doing on this show is telling the audience what you experienced. And, and, and your interpretation of that in experience. So my question is, why the fuck are you standing up for the abuser? And questions like that, you know, will, it will just, it'll blow the interviewee out of the fucking water. They're just like, shit, you know?

• 2:02:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Called me out.

• 2:02:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and it turned into a really, really good conversation. But um finding those kind of rabbit holes to go down, I, I've found is, is, is. And there wouldn't, I would never found out that he was, you know, abused as a child had. And, and gone down that rabbit hole because it wasn't anywhere, you know? And so that's another thing with mine. People. They get in that interview room and they've seen a lot of the other episodes and they kind of know what they're in for now. So they're willing to go deeper.

• 2:02:45Anthony Pompliano?

  You only agree to show up if, if you're gonna have a conversation.

• 2:02:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:48Anthony Pompliano?

  I, I enjoyed talking to other people who do a lot of interviewing because uh I find the conversations are uh much more meaningful, right? And um I think I've come to the conclusion is because they know how to ask questions. And they also uh know that if you're gonna ask the questions, you gotta be willing to answer questions.

• 2:03:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And so like, I've got a couple of friends who they'll ask me stuff and I, eh, whatever. And they're like, no, no, no, no, hold on. If you're gonna ask other people questions, you gotta answer them. And I'm like, okay, fair. Uh so you gotta be careful people don't weaponize it against you, right? The, and last thing I want to talk about is just like, you've built this incredible audience. What have been some of the coolest moments for you? Like, most people would look at your life and be like, wow, it's amazing to be a Navy SEAL. It's amazing to work for the CIA. It's amazing to do all this stuff. But my guess is that you actually have like some pretty cool things that now you're like, I cannot believe this or that. Because the audience is made up of such diverse people. It's gotten so large. Like, what are some of the cool moments that you've experienced there? Where you're just kind of like, I gotta pinch myself because I can't believe this is real

• 2:03:49Anthony Pompliano?

  for somebody who's been through kind of what I've been through?

• 2:03:55Speaker 02

  Man, there's a lot. I will say, I don't dwell on success much. Do you?

• 2:04:01Anthony Pompliano?

  No.

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  I don't have time for it.

• 2:04:03Anthony Pompliano?

  It's my, maybe not my biggest downfall or like challenge, but I also am not probably as good as I should be in terms of giving people positive feedback. Like, I kind of more focused on the negative feedback. I'm just like, the positive shit is the expectation.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:22Speaker 02

  I like that too.

• 2:04:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I think it's kind of a, if you're into the military or that whole world, it's not a lot of guys walking around being like, good job. There's a lot of people being like, you're fucking up. And so I've tried to get better at it. But yeah, the successes are just kind of, I don't know.

• 2:04:38Speaker 02

  What's next?

• 2:04:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:40Speaker 02

  I'm like that too. Some of the things that stick out, I guess, the Eric Prince interview was

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  awesome. You know, just to, to have somebody like that sitting in front of you with the circles that that guy runs in, it's like, holy shit. And the knowledge that he's, I mean, I don't think half of America can even comprehend what was coming out of his mouth.

• 2:05:07Anthony Pompliano?

  No. And just, I told you this beforehand, but it's important to me that I say it on here. That interview specifically, I think is, in the last, for sure, year, maybe couple of years, it's probably my most shared interview in the sense of like, after I listened to it, I sent it to a bunch of people. Half of them were like, Pop, you're crazy. Like, stop sending me this shit. Right? It's just like, who the fuck is Eric Prince? And the other half of people were like, what? And The first half is interesting if you understand Blackwater and a lot of the controversy and things that they went through. The second half was kind of like, the world is fucked, right? It was kind of like one of the takeaways. And so I highly suggest people listen to it, but that one for you felt like that was a kind of a trophy that you were able to have that conversation.

• 2:05:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then another one would be the, what led to that interview was the Blackwater guys. And this is, that's probably my favorite one. There was back in 2007, I don't know if you remember, there was a big shootout in Nusor Square in Baghdad.

• 2:06:11Speaker 02

  Obama Biden administration railroaded those gents. Three of them were in for 30 years, one was in for life. They deleted the evidence, they deleted the drone footage, whatever. They got railroaded. If you want to know the ins and outs, there's an interview out there. I'm the only one to ever get those four guys in the same room to tell their side of what happened that day. And with the, the liberal news reporter who actually brought this to Trump, which led to their pardons.

• 2:06:45Speaker 02

  That was, and to see like, to see those guys get to open up about that day, because the media never gave them the fucking opportunity to tell their side. It was just railroaded these, Obama wants these guys railroaded, fucking railroad them. They never gave them the time of day. So to see like, the piece come over them after that interview like, we got our, we got to tell the world, you know, what, what really happened that day, our side of it.

• 2:07:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, their side was not helpful for the public narrative.

• 2:07:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:07:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And I think that we're seeing that across the mainstream media over and over and over again. Social media changed that, shows like yours have changed that where now people have a voice. It does make you think, damn, how many, you know, stories of history? If we got the other side?

• 2:07:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Again, not necessarily meaning that the other side is 100% accurate either, but like, maybe we would just kind of be in the middle. And say like, oh, this is more complex than either side wants us to understand.

• 2:07:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:07:45Anthony Pompliano?

  But yeah, it is fascinating to realize like these guys went all the way, including jail.

• 2:07:53Anthony Pompliano?

  And then got to tell their story.

• 2:07:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, tried three times. They tried them three times. And they they just weren't going to stop until they got a guilty verdict and and but.

• 2:08:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Are they mad, those guys?

• 2:08:07Speaker 02

  Man, you know, I think they're at peace.

• 2:08:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:11Speaker 02

  You know, I think sitting in prison for seven years, I think it was, you know, they it, I think it gave them, it's something that, you know, I can't ever comprehend, but I think that just gave them a new appreciation.

• 2:08:28Speaker 02

  You know, for for being free, you know, and and and they're just really appreciative of it. You know, one guy, Nick Slatten, he won't, I don't think that guy will ever leave his town again. He lives in a small town in Tennessee, but, you know, Paul, he's one of them. He's out public speaking now, which is just, I mean, did what they have been through to be able to come out in the public and that's just phenomenal, you know, and so so the biggest wins for me, you know, it's it's watching the success that I can help bring

• 2:09:07Speaker 02

  other people, you know, is is the real, that's what makes me feel the best, you know, there's, yeah, the business wins and stuff like that. That's always cool, but, you know, I think we're very similar. It's, we don't celebrate the successes. Who the hell are you going to celebrate them with anyways?

• 2:09:25Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a great way to look at it. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find more of the show?

• 2:09:30Speaker 02

  Uh, just Sean Ryan Show, SeanRyanShow.com, Sean Ryan Shows, all the social media handles and then my personal stuff, SeanRyan762.

• 2:09:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Well, listen, I really appreciate you coming and doing this. I've learned a lot from the show and I really enjoyed talking today and we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 2:09:48Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

• 2:09:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends, and I'll see you all for the next episode.