How to Let Go after Being Let Go with Oprah and authors Laura Brown & Kristina O’Neill

In this episode of The Oprah Podcast former In Style Editor-in-Chief Laura Brown and former Wall Street Journal Magazine Editor-in-Chief Kristina O’Neill talk about the many challenges—and opportunities—that come with losing a job, no matter where you are in your career. They discuss their new book All the Cool Girls Get Fired which dives into everything you need to know if you’ve recently lost your job including how to figure out who you are without your job title. Oprah shares her own story of being fired when she was let go from being the co-anchor of the Baltimore evening news at age 22 and former CNN news anchor Brooke Baldwin talks about how she dealt with losing her high-profile job. We also hear from another woman who says she learned to bounce back better after losing her corporate role of 34 years. BUY THE BOOK! https://amzn.to/45wUR9O Subscribe: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah?sub_confirmation=1 https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah?sub_confirmation=1 Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:30Oprah Winfrey?

  I actually said to the journal manager, is this an April Fool's joke? And he goes, no, we're taking you off of the news. Gayle King was a production assistant at the time. I was the six o'clock co-anchor. And I went back downstairs and I go, meet me in the bathroom now.

• 0:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, everybody, hi. I'm so glad you all are here. And I know life is busy. So I thank you all for spending your time with us on the Oprah Podcast, where every week we're diving into topics that we hear are top of mind for so many of you watching and listening. And on this episode, whoa, we're talking about something that is just so timely about the seismic shift that millions of you are facing in the job market. These days, nobody is safe. Don't care where you are. You're not safe from the stress of thinking you may be let go. You may be laid off or experience a reduction in force, RIFs, as your company may call them, downsizing, restructuring, reorgs, all the corporate buzzwords and euphemisms that, you know, people use.

• 1:34Oprah Winfrey?

  But let's face it, no matter what it's called, what it feels like is getting fired. And for women, it just hits differently. And oftentimes, it feels like shame. And this is a really important conversation that rarely gets attention. So I'm so happy to welcome to the Tea House the authors of a new book, Working Women Need Right Now. It's called All the Cool Girls Get Fired. All the cool girls get fired. When you say it, you have to say it like that.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  All the cool girls get fired.

• 2:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Powerhouse executives Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill have decades of experience in fashion and media. The two friends spent 10 years working together at Harper's Bazaar. Christina then rose to editor in chief of the Wall Street Journal magazine. Later, Laura became editor in chief of InStyle magazine. In 2022, Laura was stunned when she was asked to step down. 14 months later, Christina was also let go.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  10 minutes before, the meeting changed from her office to the HR room. So I knew instantly after 10 years, my time was up.

• 2:48Oprah Winfrey?

  While out for a drink to commiserate, Laura and Christina posted a photo on Laura's Instagram with the caption, "All the coolest girls get fired."

• 2:56Speaker 05

  We posted it that night because, and there was no second guessing. There was no ambiguity because it was like, we were great at our jobs. We got fired.

• 3:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Their posts hit a nerve and inspired them to write a book.

• 3:09Speaker 05

  There was this deluge immediately from women going, "Oh, wow, you said it. Oh, me too."

• 3:15Oprah Winfrey?

  "All the cool girls get fired" is a roadmap for rebuilding your career and figuring out who you really are without your job title.

• 3:22Speaker 06

  In all my time at CNN, I would make phone calls and be CNN's Brooke Baldwin. I'm then all of a sudden record scratch. I'm just making a phone call and I'm just Brooke. And I had to have a real sort of come to Jesus with who that person is.

• 3:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Laura Brown.

• 3:41Speaker 05

  Hello. Thank you for having us.

• 3:42Oprah Winfrey?

  And Christina O'Neill. Welcome.

• 3:44Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 3:45Oprah Winfrey?

  So I want to start by hearing what happened to you cool girls, to each of you. You were at different popular magazines, but both of you were at the peaks of your careers. You had the titles. And what happened?

• 4:01Speaker 05

  Do you want to go chronologically? Because I was first, not to brag, I was first. Yes, I ran InStyle magazine and all the way through COVID. You know, it was a really challenging time. As an editor, we worked for three different companies during the time at the same magazine. You were on our cover seven years ago. And in early 2022, I got a call from my immediate boss.

• 4:23Speaker 05

  And I was like, hi. And there was also, there was also an HR professional on the phone. And I was given 20 minutes notice that in the in-store print side is what they refer to it, was being shut down. So 20 minutes later, myself and my entire team were on a Zoom. They call it like an all hands meeting.

• 4:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:39Speaker 05

  And we were laid off on Zoom. And that was that. And it was like, okay, you're going to get your paperwork. You're going to get your HR contacts. Roll up your, your stuff and, and you're done.

• 4:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Had you had any warning, any signs before?

• 4:50Speaker 05

  I mean, I think, yes, I think that, well, I was a bit head out the window. I was looking to do my own thing. But yes, my managing editor one day said, Laura, we don't have a budget.

• 5:00Speaker 05

  But I was, no, I was like, because we'd been through so much change and coming through COVID and all of those huge seismic cultural things. We'd been rolling with things so much. So this just seemed like another thing to roll with. And, and our rolling stopped on that morning when we were all laid off. And immediately after that, we all just got back on.

• 5:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, always is a sign is if HR is on the call.

• 5:22Speaker 05

  With HR, if an HR professional is on the call, because there's always a script.

• 5:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 5:26Speaker 05

  You know, and because they've got to do all the legal stuff and the language has to be correct. And so we got through that. But yeah, I sort of got everybody back on a Zoom right after. And I was like, okay, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? Because it was 35 people.

• 5:37Oprah Winfrey?

  35 people.

• 5:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 5:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Christina, how about you?

• 5:39Speaker 04

  I was one of one.

• 5:41Oprah Winfrey?

  One of one.

• 5:41Speaker 04

  One of one. Special.

• 5:44Speaker 04

  There was a regime change at the top of the masthead at the Wall Street Journal at the beginning of 2023. The editor in chief of the newspaper was replaced, who was my direct boss. And the new woman who came in, you know, started in February, February went by, March went by. And I couldn't get a meeting with her. So in late April, I finally got the meeting. 10 minutes before, the meeting changed from her office to the HR room.

• 6:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Whoa.

• 6:12Speaker 04

  So I knew instantly.

• 6:14Oprah Winfrey?

  You knew instantly.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  After 10 years, you know, my time was up.

• 6:18Oprah Winfrey?

  But you hadn't had any indication before. So the fact that you're going to HR, would you think? I would think, well, this isn't about me. This must be about somebody else. Yes.

• 6:28Speaker 04

  I had PowerPoints, I had printouts. I was ready, you know, I was ready to knock her socks off. But unfortunately, I think her message to me was that she wanted to go into a different direction.

• 6:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And then she, didn't she say that you can, you know, help create your own narrative?

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:44Oprah Winfrey?

  And you said?

• 6:46Speaker 04

  No. We are going to go and tell my team that you're firing me. And I don't know how I had the wherewithal in that moment, in that room, but I knew if I had to add a layer of complexity to this situation when I was-

• 7:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Like shaping the story?

• 7:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. If I had to carry a lie in addition to carrying the shock and the devastation,

• 7:09Speaker 04

  I would never get through it.

• 7:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. I think it's so good that you're using those words that a lot of women use throughout, "All the cool girls get fired." It's shock at first and devastation.

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Because I'll tell you all my story later. My story is in this book. But I remember leaving the general manager's office, being told, and I was just kind of numb. There is a kind of, you are in a state of disbelief. So tell us, Laura, how the book title and the idea of this book came about?

• 7:41Speaker 05

  And it came, what Christina was mentioning, from ownership, from owning what happened to us and being straightforward about it.

• 7:47Oprah Winfrey?

  The book title, let me remind you, "All the cool girls get fired."

• 7:50Speaker 05

  So as cool girls do when they get fired, or if they're into this, they tend to go to a bar. And I had, I'd just come back from a trip to South Africa, and Christina had been fired, and she'd actually texted me when I was in South Africa, being, getting canned.

• 8:03Speaker 04

  From under the table, in the HR room.

• 8:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Really? Yes.

• 8:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  And so I arrived back from South Africa, I was like, I've got to see my friend. And so we went, we went to meet at a bar.

• 8:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Because remind us, how long had this happened to her? How long had it been since?

• 8:17Speaker 05

  14 months between.

• 8:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I was February 2022, and you were end of April 23.

• 8:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 8:25Speaker 05

  So on the way down to the bar, I texted Christina, and I was like, here's what we're going to do. And she's like, yes, that's our relationship, basically.

• 8:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Speaker 05

  And I said, we're going to take a picture for Instagram. We're going to look super cute. And we're captioning it, "All the cool girls get fired." And she went? Okay. And we did it and we posted it that night because and there was no second guessing. There was no ambiguity because it was like we were great at our jobs. We got fired. This happened. This is honesty and this is ownership. And so we flung it out on the internet and there was this deluge immediately from women going, oh, wow, you said it. Oh, me too. Oh, oh, damn. Like, there's kind of almost like this psychological door opening with women that we we said. And honestly, there was some ego in it, too. It was like, we are good. We are good at what we do. This happened. It will happen to you.

• 9:18Speaker 05

  It may it's happening to everyone right now. We're going to own it. It's actually also the easiest way out because it cuts short all of this spin and narrative that so many women feel like they still have to do.

• 9:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Then you all decided you decided then with the drinks.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. The next morning.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  It was the next morning.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  Cut to our mutual bathrooms.

• 9:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I was, you know, hurriedly getting ready and I called Laura and I said, this is a book. I knew instantly that this was the messaging that we needed to put out into the world. Also, I think at that point Laura was probably sick of me asking her questions. You know, there's so much you don't know when you get fired. You know, I didn't know how to navigate Cobra. I didn't know if I needed a lawyer. And then if I had a lawyer or, you know, was I paying them, you know, the right amount? Like, all these things that sort of, you know, present themselves when you're suddenly let go. So we thought it was so important to, you know, combine that service element with the with the stories of the women who we had seen kind of immediately respond on Instagram.

• 10:18Oprah Winfrey?

  So I think it's so it's so smart what these women did. They have chapters with experts who offer practical step by step advice on what to do and what not to do once you're fired. It's just invaluable information that nobody ever tells you. So what do you want to say about that, Christina?

• 10:37Speaker 04

  Well, it's the book we wish we had, you know?

• 10:39Oprah Winfrey?

  It's a book I wish I had.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 10:41Oprah Winfrey?

  I thought, wow, if there had been this book.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:44Oprah Winfrey?

  I wouldn't have felt so alone.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  But in addition to all the emotions, you're sitting there Googling like 101 stuff that thankfully, you know, now is exists in one place. But that was really what we felt like was missing. And that inspiration, those women talking about what they'd been through and that opportunity to hopefully fire up some dreams.

• 11:05Oprah Winfrey?

  I am so glad to be with you here. When we come back, what I learned from getting fired from anchoring the evening news in Baltimore. Big lesson.

• 11:15Speaker 07

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• 11:36Oprah Winfrey?

  A warm welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm with the authors of a timely new book called All the Cool Girls Get Fired, Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill. And then you also have these personal interviews with women you call badass who've been fired at one time, or--

• 11:53Speaker 08

  Thanks, I'm one of the badasses.

• 11:56Oprah Winfrey?

  But others, Lisa Kudrow and Tarana Burke and Jamie Lee Curtis and Katie Couric, to name just a few. Why did you want to incorporate other women besides yourselves? Because your stories are strong.

• 12:09Speaker 05

  It was very deliberate, because when you're alone and on that couch and you've lost your job and you don't know where your money's coming from, or you don't know if you have healthcare anymore, and you're staring at your bank balance and you may be picking up a glass of wine, or you're just staring at the window, whether you have--guess, breaking news, it's easier in life to have more resources than less. But when you're fired, from whatever context it is, you all feel the same.

• 12:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 12:31Speaker 05

  You feel terrible. And so, the important thing was to remind everyone, we specifically chose high-profile, extremely successful, well-known women for this book, because these women, including yourself, felt like that. When you were fired, you weren't here. You didn't have a rose garden.

• 12:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 05

  You know? And all of these women, none of these women did. So, they were there on the couch, they were crying, they felt alone. And look at them now. So, it was very deliberate.

• 12:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And even if you have a rose garden, you're still gonna feel pretty bad.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. Exactly. It's just not part of the legends that are told about women, right? It's part of the lore that Steve Jobs got fired. It's part of Mike Bloomberg's narrative, that he was let go from Solomon Brothers. There aren't that many women out there who--

• 13:16Speaker 04

  Have acknowledged a setback that unlocked what came next for them. And we need to change that. We need to have more conversations with women so that other women, you know, can sort of see the, I mean, More stories. That's why we're so happy you're in the book.

• 13:29Oprah Winfrey?

  But this is the thing. Why is it that men seem to, or maybe they're just hiding behind it too, but they seem to be able to move on? Because I think, I love one of the quotes in the book. Men are expected to be brave, but women are expected to be perfect.

• 13:44Speaker 05

  That's a Johnny.

• 13:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. That's who says that.

• 13:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Men are expected to be brave, but women are expected to be perfect. And because of that, women carry more shame

• 13:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:55Oprah Winfrey?

  with the firings

• 13:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:56Oprah Winfrey?

  than men do.

• 13:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Men just seem to pick themselves up and keep moving on.

• 14:01Speaker 05

  Also, remember that the workplace in itself is a male construct. You know, men started working before we did. We only got the vote 100 years ago.

• 14:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 14:09Speaker 05

  So, you know, when, when we, one of our HR experts said, we were like, why does it hit harder?

• 14:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:14Speaker 05

  And, and she said, because it took us longer to get there. Generationally, we do carry that. When we got up this little rung and we're pushed off, that we hit, it's, it hits more harder. And that's again, part of the book is like, if you own it and you have a little bit of, I don't know, be male, be whatever, whatever that thing is. The sooner you own it, the sooner we change this culture. We want more women to put up their hands. We would have done double the amount of stories in this book, but people still, women we know are still spinning it. And it's like, enough. It does no one any good.

• 14:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, I think too, when you have public jobs that everyone else knows, and also when you have jobs like yourselves, you get that editor in chief title, you've worked for whatever that means and all that that means to the rest of the world. And you feel that there's a sense of embarrassment. I know for me, because for me, it was being on the evening news and having had, this is when I was 22, and having had so much promotion about it that, you know, everybody in town was like, well, who is this girl coming to Baltimore? And then I end up being, a year later, less than a year later, removed from the evening news. And as I was saying, when I got called up, it was on April Fool's Day. So it was April 1st. Yeah.

• 15:27Oprah Winfrey?

  And I thought, oh, this is an April Fool's joke. I actually said to the journal manager, is this an April Fool's joke? And he goes, no, we're taking you off of. We're taking you off the news. Gail King was a production assistant at the time. I was the six o'clock co-anchor. And I went back downstairs and I go, "Meet me in the bathroom now." And I told her that I've just been taken off the six o'clock news, but I still have to do the six o'clock news. And the embarrassment of everybody knowing it, I think, is very much like having to go back in the office when you have been the manager, director, you've been, or not, and everybody knowing it.

• 16:08Speaker 05

  Oh, it's reputational. I mean, everyone has different levels of where the stress comes from. Financial, health, reputational. Everyone, Tehran talks about that. There's certain, whatever industry you're in, there is sometimes a status that comes with that. There's relationships that comes with that, that come with that. There's comfort that comes with that. There's rituals that come with that. And you are yanked out of those. You are like a beetle on its back. And that's an absolutely normal feeling.

• 16:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 04

  But one of the things, you know, I think that was consistent across the reporting that we did for the book was the fact that women think they're wearing a sweater with a scarlet F on it is mostly in their head. And they have created that shame. They have put the shame upon themselves.

• 16:49Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  And the sooner you're able to shake the shame and take off the, you know, metaphorical sweater and stop thinking that everyone in the room is talking about you when you walk in or they're talking about you behind your back.

• 17:03Speaker 05

  They're not.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  You know, they're not. And the sooner you can shake that, you can move on and reach out to people about other opportunities.

• 17:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, the other thing is, I remember when it happened to me at 22, because there'd been so much publicity about me coming to Baltimore and doing the evening news and I had a co-anchor who didn't want me there and all of that stuff that I walked into that I didn't know. I felt shame and embarrassed by it. I was embarrassed by it. And I also felt like a failure. I felt like I had failed at this thing that I had come to do, which eventually turned out to be OK because they put me on a talk show. And that was really where I...

• 17:44Speaker 05

  Touche.

• 17:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Touche. But something you said earlier, Laura, you said, "We knew we were good at our jobs."

• 17:51Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 17:52Oprah Winfrey?

  You know? And we're left to feel like there's something you did that was inadequate. It's very different when you feel like you're being blamed for being inadequate and you failed. Then, you know, something happened in the company. I was great at my job and we're no longer. Do you see a difference?

• 18:09Speaker 05

  Yes, there's absolutely a difference, but there's also a difference in numbers. So if you feel like, you know, especially the Doze layoffs and we're just reading about all the college educated people now who have lost jobs. And you do, it is, you know, harder to control, but there's so many more of you unfortunately.

• 18:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 18:26Speaker 05

  And so what you do have, while you have this terrible feeling, you do have, you actually do have a community.

• 18:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 18:30Speaker 05

  Because there's thousands of people.

• 18:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 18:33Speaker 05

  Who lost their job at the same time as you.

• 18:35Oprah Winfrey?

  So you're not blaming yourself.

• 18:36Speaker 05

  So try not to wear it on yourself because sadly you don't have the exclusive on it.

• 18:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 18:40Speaker 05

  You know?

• 18:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Right. I think so many of you will relate to this passage. If you're not confident in your position, you don't know where you stand day to day or worse, if you're even valued, well, get out of there, sister. Leave them before they leave you. Oh, and forget that quiet quitting thing nonsense. Why would you want to passively prolong a situation that is chipping away at you every day? Christina, you say you fantasized about firing yourself, right? But you never had the courage to do it. How do you know when it's time to leave?

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, read the room.

• 19:14Speaker 05

  Vibes are off?

• 19:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, are the vibes off? And, you know, I think if you dread going to work, that's a pretty telling sign. If, you know, you're having sleepless nights, if you're, you know, sitting there sort of, you know, wishing Friday came sooner. You know, I think all of that is very, you know, your body tells you before maybe your mind catches up. So, you know, I think if you're in a situation like that, protect yourself. Also, there's so many things that people can do, even if they love their jobs. But there were things that I hadn't done in 10 years. I hadn't updated my resume. I had not gone on LinkedIn. I hadn't downloaded a single contact or backed up an email. So when this happened to me, I felt like the triage that needed to be done, just to

• 19:59Speaker 04

  sort of save the like, simple things that you could be doing along the way. To sort of put yourself in a better place, you know? If I had done some of those things, maybe I would have felt a little more confident in the next step.

• 20:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for listening to the Oprah Podcast. Stay with us. We're going to be talking with former CNN news anchor Brooke Baldwin about how she coped with losing her identity after being fired.

• 20:25Speaker 01

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• 20:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for listening to the Oprah Podcast. We're back with all the cool girls, get fired authors Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill. We're talking with former CNN news anchor Brooke Baldwin. You all know Brooke Baldwin. Yeah. She was a high-profile CNN news anchor for more than a decade with her own show. It was her dream job since she was a little girl. And then she was fired in 2021. This year, Brooke gave a TEDx talk title, "Getting Fired From My Dream Job Taught Me About Truth," and wrote an essay for Vanity Fair title, "Leaving CNN Was How I Found My Voice." So, hi, Brooke. Good to see you.

• 21:24Speaker 06

  Hi, Brooke. Hi, everyone. I needed this book four years ago. I needed it four years ago.

• 21:31Oprah Winfrey?

  You described getting fired as an unraveling, but in a good way. How so? Let's talk about that.

• 21:38Speaker 06

  I mean, at the time, not so much. And I'm listening to all of y'all, and I'm like, there was no HR involved in mine. I was like, does anyone want an exit interview? No? No? Okay. I can't tell the truth as to why I'm actually leaving? No? Okay. That was so, so hard. And my bar was three weeks in the British Virgin Islands, drinking a lot of Darkin Stormies.

• 21:59Speaker 06

  That said, after I wiped, you know, my tears and had wiser friends say to me, Brooke, like, this is, this is a gift. This is a gift. And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. You know, ultimately, I realized this was the beginning of my unraveling. Like, Oprah, you say this, and it's so right on. It's like, the universe comes, and first, it's the whisper. And we don't really always, we're like, I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear. And then comes the knock, and we're like, I don't want to know who's on the other side of the door. And then, as I put it, like, the frying pan to the forehead.

• 22:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 06

  And I got the frying pan, and I only now know that I needed it, that I had veered so totally off my path, and I needed to come home to myself, which is exactly what I've been doing.

• 22:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. But did you know why at the time you were being fired? And was it a surprise?

• 22:47Speaker 06

  It was a total surprise. You know, like, I think it was Laura who said, I had sort of one foot out the door. I knew I wasn't in full alignment. I knew that, you know, I was into covering stories using my humanity, my authenticity. And I think the currency more and more in cable news was around being pugilistic and interviewing people and having these cable news food fights. And it just wasn't my jam. There are people way better at that than me. And so one day I got a call, you know, during like a Trump impeachment trial and he got impeached. And that was my version of April Fool's Day. And I got a little, I got impeached as well. And to this day, I have no, I have no idea. I got fired without cause. I have that on paper. And that was part of the hardest part.

• 23:30Speaker 06

  It's like, you know, I had this perseverating, like, I'm a good person, I'm a good person, I'm a good person. Like, how, how did this happen? Why did this happen? But it needed to happen and I know that now.

• 23:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Hmm. How did it affect your self-identity? You know, I think particularly people who are in high-profile jobs that other people recognize as high-profile jobs.

• 23:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:53Oprah Winfrey?

  You, you lose yourself in that job. You lose yourself in the identity of what you do. So how did it affect how you saw yourself? I've also heard this from other women who aren't in high-profile jobs. You become, and I know you all talk to lots of people. So I want your thoughts on that and then your thoughts on that.

• 24:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, my identity was inextricably linked with those three little letters. Like, in all my, you know, time at CNN, I would make phone calls and be, you know, CNN's Brooke Baldwin, I'm CNN, this is Brooke calling from CNN. And then all of a sudden, like, you know, record scratch, I'm just making a phone call and I'm, I'm just Brooke? Who's just Brooke?

• 24:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 06

  And, and I had to have a real sort of come to Jesus with who that person is. But, you know, to, to all of y'all's point, I have, in, in In coming home to myself, I literally get down on my knees and pray all the time. It helped me free myself to now figure out, ah, who is just Brooke? And what does just Brooke now want to do?

• 24:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Did a lot of people talk about self-identity?

• 24:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, it's an easy thing to do. If you enjoy what you do and you're passionate about what you do, you do place some of your value in what you do. But that's the dangerous part, if it becomes all of your value. And, you know, it's an easy thing to say you don't do it, but we all do it. Especially, you know, in any business, again, there's status, there's comfort, there's all of these things.

• 25:17Oprah Winfrey?

  The Oprah Show was my life.

• 25:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:19Oprah Winfrey?

  It was my life. I know, and that's similar to you, Brooke. It was my, that's all I did.

• 25:24Speaker 06

  Everything.

• 25:24Oprah Winfrey?

  I went to work, I did work, and then I got up and went to work again. Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I think that it's a very seductive thing, obviously, and it's a very rewarding thing. But you have to just peek around it a bit, you know? Just to remind yourself that there is something else out there to keep something else going on in your life, your friends, your family, some other thing that just broadens you as a person. So when this happens, you're not totally laid out, you know what I mean? And that's what's really, really hard, though.

• 25:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Christina?

• 25:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I think we live in an interesting time where the types of jobs that people are able to create when they walk away from something as monumental as what you had built and what Brooke's role on CNN was. There's so many more opportunities out there than there were when we were coming up, right? And I think it's been really exciting to sort of see people who lose their jobs create new opportunities to start working for themselves. You know, the landscape has changed so dramatically, even in the three, two and a half years since we left our positions. And I think that's such a good reminder that you can create something new out of the ashes.

• 26:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I love what Brooke said too about coming home to herself. I think no matter who you are, no matter who you are, when it happens, you have to give yourself room to be still. Have the drinks, go out and do the drinks. Lay on the sofa. Lay on the sofa, do the tears, all of that. But be still enough to come back home because it is a resetting for yourself. No matter who you are, I think it's a resetting.

• 26:56Speaker 05

  It is, and honestly, I mean, my husband made, came up with this. It comes with the Johnny Appleseed rule. Where basically like, you don't know this, but in any career you're in, if you're a nice person and you've worked hard, you're actually throwing seeds around.

• 27:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 05

  You know, all the time, unwittingly. And then, when you need it, you look around and there's a little orchard for you because you've created this world for yourself. And we had, people will show up for you. Don't be shy, ask them. If you've done good work and you have good relationships, people will show up for you and don't isolate yourself and open yourself up to that because you're reminded of who you are and not what your job was.

• 27:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely. Brooke, what do you want to say to anyone listening about how you recovered? What didn't work, what did?

• 27:35Speaker 06

  You know, I think one of the things that was actually the hardest part was, I really had to get to know my younger self. Like, we had to get in, we had to be in deep conversation, you know, because when I was graduating college and all my girlfriends were living in the big city and living these, you know, Sex and the City exciting lives. I was moving to small-town America. You know, I'm rolling the teleprompter under the desk with my foot. I'm covering water skiing squirrels. I'm working all the graveyard shit, you know. I dated the wrong guys. I put off having kids. Like, my eggs were still frozen. And so, I had to really, I had to tell her, like, talk to your younger self. She's not disappointed in you, you know. You're gonna make her proud, just watch. Just watch and wait and have faith.

• 28:18Speaker 06

  And, speaking of the drinking, I'll end with this. I quit, you know. For the first time in my life, I realized, gosh, with all this change happening for me, I felt myself starting to reach a numb in a way that I felt was unhealthy and I feel fortunate that I could just quit cold turkey like that. But I like, clarity is a gift. That's where I am.

• 28:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Clarity is your gift. Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 06

  Agree.

• 28:43Oprah Winfrey?

  And it takes time to get there.

• 28:44Speaker 06

  It does.

• 28:46Oprah Winfrey?

  It does. It does. Well, thanks, Brooks. Good to see you. Thank you. Good to see you. Thriving, flourishing. Good to see you. Adina Presley is a single mom of two daughters. And for 34 years, she was vice president at a well-known financial group. And last year, she was laid off due to large-scale downsizing. And Adina, I hear you relate to the shame piece. But now you're feeling better about it, excited, right?

• 29:14Speaker 03

  I'm feeling so excited about it. And you know, I'm sitting back here.

• 29:17Oprah Winfrey?

  So now you belong to the, now you belong to all the cool girls.

• 29:20Speaker 03

  I'm a cool girl.

• 29:22Oprah Winfrey?

  One of the cool girls.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  High five.

• 29:24Oprah Winfrey?

  High five.

• 29:24Speaker 03

  That's right, high five. I'm such a cool girl. As I'm sitting here and I'm listening to Christina and Laura and even Brooke, I'm sitting here and I'm just like, oh, my God, yes, that was me. Every single thing that they spoke about happened to me. And I think what I really wanted to let people know is, yeah, it's OK to be a cool girl and get fired. It's OK for you to say, you know what? I don't want to work for anybody else anymore. I want to work for myself, you know? And I looked at it as, you know what? You guys actually did me a favor. You put a battery in my back. And you gave me the confidence to say, I can do this, and I can do this on my own. So I am loving it.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  I have to be honest, when I first got the call, I didn't say that I was let go. And I think the reason why I didn't, it wasn't so much shame. It was so much, like, I'm not going to let your bad decisions or your, you know, the decisions you made with regards to business and that you had to downsize diminish the work that I did. You know, I was successful at what I did. I was good at what I did. And yeah, I was a cool girl where I was. So I was not going to let that define me. So.

• 30:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  That's where I'm at right now.

• 30:37Oprah Winfrey?

  But did you grieve in the beginning? Was there some grief for you about the job that was? Or did you immediately go into, I'm going to do something on my own?

• 30:47Speaker 03

  Well, first of all, I think like Laura had mentioned, I kind of knew it was coming because 15 minutes before the virtual meeting, I saw that it was my boss and the HR professional.

• 30:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, my God.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  It's so cliche. I mean, that's the most like

• 31:03Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  We're all in the same boat.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. And the script. Yeah. Yes. So I knew it was coming. And when they, you know, when you finally hear the words, I sat there for a second and I literally closed my laptop and I said, wow, that wasn't so bad. I feel like, like a ton of bricks is lifted up off of my chest because like Christina, um, you know, in my role, I was starting to become discouraged. I was starting to become, um, you know, I couldn't even motivate my team. You know, it was a struggle for me because I didn't like the direction that the company was going in. I didn't like the decisions that they were making. Um, you know, I saw the cutbacks that was coming. And to be honest with you,

• 31:45Speaker 03

  um, I was actually shocked. So my question is, um, and this could be for either one of you ladies, what advice would you give women, especially those like me who's further along in their career, um, because I'm 54, um, and, um, we have to reinvent ourselves and start over, you know, like what advice would you give with regards to that?

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Well, I was inspired to hear that you're working for yourself. And I think that that is such a good reminder that everything you built didn't evaporate when your job did.

• 32:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, that's good.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  And that you're able to take it with you and put it to work for yourself. And I think that so many people get shocked into, you know, discouragement and can't see, you know, an opportunity. And I think it's really impressive that you were able to sort of see the forest from the trees and, you know, came and put something together for yourself.

• 32:40Speaker 05

  Yes, you've built a platform of your own skills and, and, and history, and it doesn't disappear if you lose your job. You stand on that and you should feel tall and not make yourself small. Uh, number, the second thing I would say is one of our experts have mentioned this, when this happens to you and you are in shock, but, uh, but he said, um, look at, take a beat and we all have a beat, you know, to what made you more happy and less happy over the course of your career. So what can you do to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness? And we call it math for your dreams. Like, take that moment. And there's just, and any job we've had, we're like, okay, this is fine, this is fine. I've got it, sort of, I've got it. And there's a little, hopefully, a bit of curiosity, or a bit of a, um, attention to change, or a bit of a passion that's been lying in you that you haven't explored because you've been in this job.

• 33:25Speaker 05

  You know, the job that you're in, sometimes it's like a sandpit. You know, when you go to the same sandpit every day, you know everyone there. Hi Jimmy.

• 33:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:32Speaker 05

  Hi Johnny. Hi Jimmy, hi Johnny. And you know the sandpit, you know the sandpit. And you go there, maybe the sandpit's a little dirtier, but you still know it. And then something happens when you're fired. You're like, there was a beach. The entire time I've been sitting in this sandpit, there's a whole beach out there I didn't notice.

• 33:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:48Speaker 05

  That's the beach, and that's what you look, I look at as, especially, we're all in our 50s. You know, we have that experience and that ability to look at that beach and follow that passion. You've done that by working for yourself, so, bravo.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  And experience doesn't, doesn't go away. Experience becomes, that's the, the thing that you bring with you.

• 34:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I absolutely believe that. One of the things I said in, uh, All the Cool Girls Get Fired, is that when I was telling my story about, you know, being taken off the 6 o'clock news, is that the bounce back is even greater. However far down you are taken, the bounce back comes back even greater. Because it gives you a moment to reassess, as Brooke was saying, to come home to yourself. Which is exactly how I felt the very first day I did my first talk show interview. And I felt like, oh, this is why that happened. This is what I was supposed to do. And now that's exactly where you are, Dina. Congratulations, actually.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 34:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Congratulations on the setback was a setup, girl. Setback was a setup. Thank you. You all write that getting fired can actually be a wake-up call, that it's actually a wake-up call. And you say that if one's identity is tied to that job, then it's time to reset. Exactly. So what do you want to say to women about resetting boundaries at work?

• 35:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, listen, it's so tempting to answer the emails at eight, nine o'clock at night or on the weekend.

• 35:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, it is.

• 35:23Speaker 04

  And it's very tempting to kind of only, you know, hang out with friends that you met in the office.

• 35:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:29Speaker 04

  You know, but I think with time and age and perspective, you know, I have learned, you know, going into my new job, you have to set boundaries, you have to create passions and interests outside of the day job. And those are the things that that remain when when the job doesn't. You have work friends and then you have real friends. And you have to have those, you have to be able to make a distinction. And I think too many people get wrapped up in...

• 35:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. You lose your, you lose your, lose the line, lose the boundaries. You've given it all. Yes.

• 36:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, keep your eye on the horizon, I think, you know, and and what you're in right now is what you're in right now. But if you are, there's, I mean, look at the change that we're all just facing as a country every single day.

• 36:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 05

  You know, it's like Christina said, read the room in your workplace, read the room in the world, you know, and and be aware of what's happening in your business, what's happening around you. And just, there's, there's strength in that. There's strength in that for when something does happen, that you feel that you have some power. And that's really key, I think. It's just like, that's, so there's your job, and here's the world, and just keep your eye on the bigger picture.

• 36:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, you end the book with a collection of epiphanies. In one, you write, "What you've experienced, hopefully, is a capital R revelation. You have options you never knew you had, in worlds you'd never explored, working with people you really respect, and hopefully, you're not only inspired, you are prepared." What do you most want all the cool girls who are watching us right now, listening to us, to know about getting fired?

• 37:07Speaker 05

  It's not the end.

• 37:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 05

  It is the beginning. It can sound trite, but we promise you, even if you're shocked into this moment,

• 37:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:15Speaker 05

  Sit with it, rest, don't rest, you know, rest, but don't retreat. And open your eyes up to what's out there. And we promise you the reward is out there and it'll be more on your own terms.

• 37:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, no echoing that. I mean, we wouldn't be here if we hadn't been fired.

• 37:32Speaker 04

  You know, we kind of joke that we're now the poster girls for getting fired. But we really, you know, we're proud of that. And I think, starting the conversation, reach out to people, let them know what you're going through, let them lift you up. You have to let people know you want to be lifted and carried. And I think that that is so important and was such a reminder. How many people reached out to us in the moments that it happened? It was so refreshing and so rewarding to have that network. And, you know, just a reminder to everyone who's going through it, just keep your head up, you know, stay positive and, you know, do some math for your dreams.

• 38:12Oprah Winfrey?

  I go back to the fact that when your boss said, you know, I'm gonna let you create your own narrative, you're like, no, I want to tell people the truth that I've been fired. And I think, one of the things you all have done with this book, All the Cool Girls Getting Fired, I mean, listen, I hope that it's a best, best, best, best, best seller. And that it gets normalized.

• 38:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:33Oprah Winfrey?

  That we can say the words out loud.

• 38:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:35Oprah Winfrey?

  There's no shame, no blame, no, you know, grief and sorrow attached to that. That it's like, it's a fact of life.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:44Oprah Winfrey?

  And now I'm gonna reset and use that setback to set myself up for something even more attuned to what I really want to do. I mean, I think it's a, it's a, it's a wake up call and it's also a growth spurt.

• 38:58Speaker 05

  It's such a growth spurt. I mean, I've had, you know, literally women coming up to me in the street, saying, is, when's the book? I need it. Oh, I got fired. Or here's my friend, she got fired and they're having drinks in a restaurant, whatever. And I just go. You are so cool. And just that moment of like, there's a community for you. There's no shame. You see the faces change. You know, women light up and it's like, let's flip this. Let's get a bit of bravado. Let's get a bit of ownership and let's move on. Let's change the culture.

• 39:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, I love that you've done this. Thank you. Mar Brown and Christina O'Neill, their inspiring new book, All the Cool Girls Get Fired, is available wherever books are sold. And thank you Brooke Baldwin and Adina for sharing your stories. Listeners, thank you for your valuable time. Let's meet up again next week. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.

• 40:00Speaker 08

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