#1276 Oliver Rust | Here Is Proof That Inflation Data Is Wrong...

Oliver Rust is the Head of Product at Truflation. In this conversation, we talk about outdated process used for calculating CPI, what Truflation is doing with new data collection, how good data would change Fed’s response & lead to better decision making, why Truflation believes inflation will be sticky in 2024, and what success looks like for Truflation. ======================= Auradine, a leader in web infrastructure solutions including blockchain, AI, and privacy, has unveiled the world's first 4nm Bitcoin mining systems, featuring breakthrough EnergyTune™ technology, setting new standards in performance and energy efficiency. The Teraflux™ product line from Auradine offers best-in-class performance, efficiency, and total cost of ownership (TCO), positioning it as the optimal choice for Bitcoin mining needs. With EnergyTune™, a patent-pending technology, Auradine's Teraflux™ systems enable rapid demand response and optimal energy usage, fostering a symbiotic relationship with electrical grids, and contributing to sustainable energy practices. Designed and manufactured in the US, Auradine's Teraflux™ product line not only ensures cutting-edge technology but also mitigates supply chain risks and provides increased supply chain resiliency. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.auradine.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information the Teraflux bitcoin mining systems. ======================= Cal.com is leading the charge of scheduling platforms in the open-source sphere, offering you the chance to harness the efficiency previously reserved for elite corporations and tech gurus. That's right, Cal.com is transforming sophisticated calendar management into an accessible tool for all via a user-friendly interface. Discover how countless users are optimizing their time in unprecedented ways. Use code “POMP” for $500 off when you set your team up with Cal.com. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 250,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Oliver Rust is the head of product at Truflation. In this conversation, we talk about why CPI, the Bureau of Labor Statistics methodology for calculating inflation, is incorrect or inaccurate. What exactly Truflation is doing with a new data collection and methodology?

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  How the Fed would respond if they had a different data set? Why Truflation believes that inflation will be stickier than everyone else believes in 2024? How good data could lead to better decision-making? And also, then we talk about the product. Who's using it? How exactly are they doing it? And what does success look like for somebody like Trueflation, who wants to build a much better inflation measurement? I really enjoyed this conversation with Oliver, and I think that you all will learn a ton from it. So I'm excited for you all to listen to my episode with Oliver Rust.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:38Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:19Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:00Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:41Anthony Pompliano?

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• 4:01Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Oliver here with me. I thought a great place to start is Truflation wants to build a better measurement of inflation. That is probably the high level kind of mission. But first, we got to talk about the old method. It is pretty well understood across Wall Street, across macro economy, across market participants. The inflation metric is the best we got. CPI, a lot of questions, a lot of controversies, a lot of debate. How do you all think about what is good about CPI and the data collection and methodology? And then where are the areas where maybe they're lacking or could be improved?

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. So first of all, thanks for having me on. Let me go through it. The BLS, which is the Official Bureau of Labor Statistics, which is the government measurement tool of inflation, is measured by doing roughly, I think it's 80,000 interviews on a monthly basis where they go and either do store checks to check prices, or they have a survey that goes out, but eventually they ask households, what are the price points of these particular items? And I think the great thing is it's been going on for so long that it gives you a very nice longitudinal trend. The downside with for that history of having all that time series analysis that you can do with

• 5:17Speaker 02

  that data set is that, of course, that you're bound by the lack, the constraints of innovation of this type of a data set. And so when Truflation started approaching it was like, we got to find a way how to update and modernize this capability. And of course, if you think back to the BLS when it first started, it was pre First World War. It's more than 100 years old. And if you think about it, what's the real evolution that's been there? Not that dramatic. And since then, you know, we've also not only had the consumer boom of the 70s and 80s, we've had the whole internet

• 5:57Speaker 02

  bubble of online shopping, e-commerce, and all that's changed how to measure inflation as what it was done historically. And I think that's that has allowed us to modernize it in our own way, that what we believe is the right way to go forward to measuring inflation as comprehensive as one possibly can.

• 6:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, let's talk about how you guys actually are doing it differently. There's like data collection and then there's the methodology or the calculation. Maybe start first with data collection. What are using different data points or you have some other methodology? Do you have just way more people going into the stores? How does it work?

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, we don't actually have people at the stores. We collect data from about 40 different data sources. And they, all those data sources aggregate up to about 18 million price points of goods and services on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. So we aggregate all that data set into 12 product categories ranging from things like food and beverages, all the way through to housing, transportation, recreation, culture, education, health, and so forth. And we measure each of those indexes on a daily basis. And I think the key fundamental difference for us has always been not only the volume of data that we're dealing with, but I think most more importantly is the frequency,

• 7:12Speaker 02

  which allows for a much more analytical capability by having many more trend points along the way. Yes, by having daily, you get a lot more noise and variability, but it gives you a considerably greater trendability and forecastability applications rather than having one dot per month.

• 7:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, when you start looking at the calculation and methodology, if you're getting, let's say, more robust data, better data, you could still screw up the methodology. You could be just as wrong as anyone else or not. Like, how do you think about the calculation being maybe more accurate or more advanced?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the calculation is more comprehensive as a result of having the volume of data that we have, the robustness, as you mentioned. And I think that's for a number of reasons is that we don't need to put in separate calculations in there for, for people downgrading or upgrading or new materials coming into clothing. Therefore, the price point changes. We don't need to reflect those. And some, the BLS and others use things like the Fisher index to look at cost of living adjustments. You also have the PASH index, which looks at this down trading, up trading. And all these different types of calculations that are sitting on top of the index means that you're adding, in our view,

• 8:32Speaker 02

  You're adding a potential error on top of a data set, on top of a calculation that's sitting on top of another calculation, on top of another calculation, but at the root cause of everything is this 80,000 sample interview that they do to collect price points of goods and services. And I think that's the fundamental thing is the volume of data allows us to remove these additional calculations that other organizations have because we're measuring not only prices, but we're also seeing volumetric data set coming in, which gives us this consumer understanding whether downgrading, upgrading without having to create an additional calculation for that.

• 9:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, as we look at a better calculation with more robust data, one of the questions becomes, would the Federal Reserve or other people in the economy actually make better decisions? So if we had a different but better measurement, how much would it change decision making? What are the things that would be different if this became the standard kind of measurement that everyone looked at?

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, I mean, at the end of the day, we're trying to, Truflation is trying to measure inflation in the most comprehensive manner possible, right? And our goal is to achieve that. And I think we're a long way off from there. There's a lot more that we can do, but I think we, given the volume of data sets that we're dealing with, the frequency of data sets that we've got, I think it does alternatively change market outlook. So if we look, you know, where our predictability as a result of our data has been of the BLS, for example, where we try and match our data to the BLS and predict what their numbers

• 10:08Speaker 02

  are, you know, we've got a really comprehensive forecasting capabilities, you know, we're on an average month, we're for the last year and a half, I think that we've been doing this, we've only got a variability of 0.14%, right? And that's better than where Bloomberg is, it's better than the average of 40 different economists that we track. So, you know, that gives us better forecastability. I think that's one aspect of it. Do we see our data being a replacement of the BLS by organizations? Look, that's up to our clients and organizations to predict. I think what we tend to position ourselves as an alternative data set, at least in the interim, so that they can start using our data, seeing the value of it.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  And then in due course, people might choose to replace the data sets altogether. But I think in the initial term, we see it very much as an alternative data set, which gives you another triangulation of what the likely trends are in the marketplace.

• 11:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk to me about who are the types of people using this? So are these macro fund, you know, kind of hedge fund traders? Are these economists? Who's actually consuming the data and what are they doing with it?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you got, it ranges quite broadly and much broader than we initially thought when we launched the capability. So at one end, you got macro people that are very interested in just looking at what our forecast is for the next three months, six months. What are some of the structural foundations that we're looking in within the inflationary numbers that could point to a different trend in the long term? Then you get the quant guys who are looking at to adjust their trading strategies and how they adjust their investment decisions. And then you've got people who are producing, even in the DeFi world, who are producing products of our data for, you know, real world assets, for example.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  People creating inflationary protected stable coins or flat coins. You're getting people looking at trying to use our data to, you know, tokenize oil data, then add an inflationary protection oil data on top of that. So all these variabilities of data sets that we actually partially knew, but partially didn't sort of expect the volume of growth that to come on has been phenomenal. So those are broadly aspecting are the various types of users in our data sets.

• 12:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, one of the things that's interesting is if you spend all day trying to figure out how to build a great product that can collect data, can calculate and use the methodology to have this alternative data set, you eventually have to have a personal opinion in terms of what's going to happen with inflation, right? Like, you can't just stare at the data all along like, I have no clue. And so one of the things that's interesting to me is I get, maybe it's daily or weekly email from you guys, and it's different kind of thought processes of, hey, this is something I'll pay attention to, this is something we're seeing in the data, this is something that we think is going to happen. One of those emails recently talked about sticky inflation in 2024. That is somewhat against the narrative. There's many people who think the Fed is winning the fight and inflation is going to wave the white flag, it's over, the Fed's going to win, and let's move on with our life. Are

• 13:10Anthony Pompliano?

  they wrong? Why do you guys think that inflation is going to continue to be sticky?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we certainly believe inflation is going to be a little stickier than people expect. I think the short-term outlook for the remaining part of this year, coming into the Q1 next year, you know, we sort of see a bit of a rise again back in maybe December and January in inflation numbers, not a massive jump where we are, but it's sort of an upward trajectory. And then it'll slowly come down again. I think there are, you know, I think there are three longer terms, longer-term outlooks that I think we need to understand before we can really deal with inflation. And those are the structural elements. And one of them is, you know, the government's investing a lot of money to onshore capability,

• 13:59Speaker 02

  looking at semiconductor elements, investments the government's doing, you're looking at the green energy investments the government's doing, all that is bringing capabilities back onshore and using, fantastically using US labor, but that's all going to increase costs from where they are produced today, right? And so that cost structure is going to be passed on to the consumer at some point, or at some point. That's one aspect of it. The second aspect of it is this removal of the middle class. Right. You look at the variability of the last ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty years. The middle class, the middle class has been eroding.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  And the bulk of that middle class has actually been, um, been either, well, the bulk of it has been dropping down into a sort of a lower income base. But there are individuals that are going up in the higher income. And higher income are just spending and that's fueling again more growth and more, uh, more spending power, therefore more pricing power that's coming into the market. I think the third thing why we think that inflation is going to be a lot more sticky is there can be less innovation in the marketplace because the cost of capital is high. And that cost of capital then is then, you know, where are you going to get productivity gains? How much is AI going to impact that? If the capital injection money flowing into organizations is gonna, is gonna benefit through there.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  And I think finally, within that, you know, I, I don't, I don't believe, I, I'm not a, I'm an avid promoter and believer of AI. But I don't believe the impact of AI is going to be instantaneously. And I think that's going to be a much longer outlook, about three, maybe four years before corporations start to really see the long-term gains and productivity gains from AI. So I think those are some of the structural elements that need to be addressed. I think in the short term, where we feel that things are going to be a lot more stickier. I think is going to be the service-based economies, uh, service-based goods, uh, sorry, service-based prices. With unemployment market, you look at the jobless claims, most recently been holding relatively stable. The continued, uh, jobless claims have been rising up a bit the last couple of weeks.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Uh, it's coming down again recently. I think you're holding, it'll be interesting what the unemployment number comes out with, but that's been relatively stable. It's softening a bit, but not too much. So, and wage inflations are still quite, quite high. So although it's coming down, it's still quite strong. So I think that whole service bucket is going to be a key focus for the Fed to look into, to see what decision base they come out with. Um, I think then on the flip side, you've also got the housing market, right? And housing is one of the biggest contributors to household. household expenditure and I think the housing market in the US is restricted by significant supply right I think volumes the sales of housing has dropped that's clear no one's disputing that I think that's caused by you know the increased mortgage rates the interest rates

• 16:48Speaker 02

  as a result of that I think you know there's also the fact the lack of movement of labor and talent across the country we've seen previously and I think all this work from home and this new working environment is causing less movement of labor as well and I think somewhere that lack of supply and the lack of restriction of housing is going to keep those prices relatively strong in the short term and in the longer term that will slowly start to come down or reverse the trends but at least in the interim that I we don't see a viewpoint of our opinion that that's going to come down in the near in the near future

• 17:24Anthony Pompliano?

  as we see AI continue to permeate throughout the society economy etc how much of AI is just like a reinforcement of the deflationary effects and that actually gives more runway to the Fed and others for loose monetary policy and kind of like hey our big worry should be deflation not high inflation because AI is going to be this dominant thing

• 17:46Speaker 02

  yeah I think I know like I I I'm of the I mean we use AI like crazy in our in our organization and we love it right but as I said I I think that the timing of when AI is really adopted at a mass scale that produces the productivity gains that everyone is expecting I I don't see that in the immediate horizon at least that much more in the longer term and so therefore the Fed is probably in our view probably looking at that more as a longer term outlook and like coming back to that structural element changes that's coming on on board I think I think in the in the more shorter term the Fed's can be focused on things like core inflation and be focused on services and they're going to be focused on you know the gas prices right if OPEC

• 18:28Speaker 02

  can can proceed with their desires of Saudi Arabia and Russia looking trying to restrict OPEC production and what's going on in in Israel versus Hamas and the war there I think there is

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Opportunity or a lot of concern for the Fed to maintain their price, their interest rates at a, at a high level for longer because if, if oil prices go up, that affects so many product categories that we, that we use on a daily basis, whether it's, you know, fifty percent of the oil prices at the pump, at this oil prices follow through right down to the pump. But then it affects all the whole raft of other product categories and services, right? So I think it's the shorter term outlook is where the Fed will be concerned about for the next three to six months and the outlook horizon there. I think the services element is going to be a critical factor for them and see if that starts to soften.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  I think they'll start to see a bit of a, a, maybe a loosening of their viewpoints of, of, of interest rates and maybe that start coming down a bit earlier than expected. I think the other thing to think in effect is the, the rate of, the rate of increase of interest rates has been so fast. Um, and it's so rapid. The question now is also being, how does the Fed cut its interest rate and what volume does it cut its interest rate? Is it going to, is it going to be significant chunks at a time or is it going to be gradual? I'm of the belief that it will be significant chunks, uh, rather than smaller twenty five percent basis points, uh, drops.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  I think it's going to be more, more likely seventy five, um, fifty, seventy five, if not even a hundred basis point drops.

• 20:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Why do you think that? What, why do you think it's going to be so aggressive?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  I, I just think you start looking at economic data and if you start looking at the level of which they've accelerated to, and if there is a softening in the economic data sets that's coming through in Q one, early, late Q one. Um, you know, no one's expect, I mean, the, the GDP forecast in quarter three was at four point nine percent. Uh, you know, you're like, that's, it's obviously anomaly in the grand scheme of things. You're, everyone's expecting the Q, Q four number to come down again. Um, but still, it's still going to be, it's going to be a strong number, or at least the forecasts are. And I think somewhere, once the, the numbers start To soften a bit and if if the I know the prices of goods and services starts to see some softening,

• 20:59Speaker 02

  then I think they'll start to drop it. And because of the level they're at, it's going to come down more dramatic than otherwise. And so that's why I think it's going to be much more of a dramatic chunks of decline rather than a gradual 25 basis drops at a time.

• 21:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Now, when we start to look at maybe other areas of the economy in terms of inflation, one of the things I always remind people is when prices go up, they don't come back down. I don't see any of the restaurants cutting their prices back. I don't see, you know, a number of these things that that all went up. How do you think about trying to incorporate, you know, that level? It's almost more like cost of living and the persistent rise of that over time, more so than it is just a true like year over year inflation number.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, if we go back, I mean, this is the this is the thing that we've been reporting on for quite a while, Truflation, which is to say, if we went back to before the inflationary increase started occurring, so back down to 2020, for example, people have had, you know, 20% of their money has been eroded, right? And a very, I mean, the income groups, it varies, but more than 20% of your income has been eroded because of inflation. And that number is not going to come down, right? It's it's the rate of increase will slow down. That is clear. But we're not expecting, I mean, maybe one or two categories will expect will expect real deflation. But again, it's real deflation versus last year or versus a year ago. It's not real deflation back to, you know, three, two, three years ago.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  We've had this massive surge of 20%, 25% increases of erosion of people's income and therefore purchasing power. And I think that's that's the real fundamental thing. And I don't see us going back down to those levels in any manner, shape or form.

• 22:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, when we see the consumer, obviously, they feel inflation. They complain about things being expensive, but I think if you walk down the street, most people couldn't tell you what the inflation number is itself. How do you see their behaviors actually changing in terms of these high inflation environments? And is there some sort of psychological scarring that occurs where the high inflation that we experienced over the last couple of years will change behavior that even when inflation gets back under control, these people will continue to kind of act the same way as if inflation was still closer to 10%?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's actually an interesting question for us because we've been actually doing some, we're starting to do some quite deep analysis into that right now. We're trying to understand what are the trigger points of when we'll start to see a real change. And one of the factors we're looking at, of course, is is consumer expenditure, consumer purchasing power, consumer spending levels. And if you look at all those variables that are out there for a form of metric of consumer spending, they haven't really slowed down, right? There's post-COVID, we saw huge government stimulus packages coming in to bulk up people's expenditure patterns. They spent more. The savings rate went up, they couldn't go out, then they had revenge spending and that all came back.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  And now where people are, came out this summer, huge retail sales. Yes, it's markedly come down a bit this month, but a huge significant retail sales in September. And I think somewhere, you know, the question for us is to say is, how are people funding that, the expenditure patterns? And we're seeing saving rates being eroded. We're seeing

• 24:22Speaker 02

  debt levels increasing, whether it's household debt from a mortgage perspective, whether it's credit card debt. You've got all these other debt factors that people are dealing with, whether it's auto loans, whether it's student loans and so forth. And they've only been increasing at a household level. And so you're starting to see, okay, well, savings is eroding and household debt levels increasing. I've got higher interest rates to refinance that debt. So, you know, that's the sort of correlation that we've been looking into. And one of the things that we're looking into now is that saying, well, if you look at an, if there's lack of mobility and people are not moving around the country, not buying new homes because of the higher interest rates

• 25:03Speaker 02

  and people and the owner occupancy rates are very high in the US, so therefore. People are most likely not going to be switching out from their 30-year fixed mortgages to get anything else and their purchasing power is still relatively strong unlike if you look in other markets like in Europe where the variability of that mortgage rate changes every five years. I mean, so you don't have a 10 to 30-year fixed in other markets. Very few other markets have that. And so that gives it the US that takes a bit of a longer, longer time for that impact of an erosion of consumer expenditure to change behavior. And we see that most likely to come in probably sometime in the end of Q1,

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Q2 next year if things hold as they, as we expect them to hold. But we'll get more up to date to that once we start finishing on modeling.

• 25:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk to me about the product itself in terms of how do people interface with you all? How much of this is API versus more like dashboard type stuff? What are you seeing from actual customer usage?

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we got three, Trueface has got three basic platforms. You either go on the dashboard, you look at the, at the website, you can access all the data that's there. You can see that you can also go there and consume as a retail investor, you can go and, and, and purchase the data, or you can get the access data through an API with the forecast ability with matching into, into the BLS data sets if people want that. We have our, our economist teams or analyst teams coming together with clients one-on-one to, to debrief the outlook of the future, why it's happening, what our forecasts are, what our three-month rolling forecasts are and so forth. So those are generally the three platforms. You either got an enterprise solution at one end, or you got the dashboard access

• 26:48Speaker 02

  on the website on the other end.

• 26:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, what are some of the challenges that you guys are facing right now from a pure product standpoint? So not data collection, not kind of the methodology, but what are some of the things you're thinking about with user experience or how you'd be able to actually make this much more kind of prevalent across Wall Street and elsewhere?

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think for us is one, I think, first of all, the exposure of our dataset, I think it's fairly well-known. Of course, there's more work for us to be doing to accelerate exposure. But I think the other factor for us is how do we drive more defined usability of the data, right? You know, especially now in a world where we believe inflation is going to be hanging around a lot more, a lot longer than the market is expecting. But how do we translate that into additional models, forecasting, and then we start doing nowcasting with every new data injection that we get? You know, how do we leverage that into models and quant aspects for end users, right?

• 27:47Speaker 02

  And that creates for us, you know, a bit more of a stickier relationship and a bit more of a deeper understanding with the community of what they're asking for versus what we can deliver. So it's more trying to go deeper into the dataset, more trying to find deeper and supporting the analysis and applications that our end users are using the data for. And I think that combination is where our focus is right now.

• 28:13Anthony Pompliano?

  What's been the most surprising thing to you in terms of doing this? Has it been the receptivity, maybe the resistance from people, maybe something with the product? What's really been surprising?

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I look, we, I think we were very fortunate around the timing of our launch. Let's be clear about that. We launched nearly two years ago and the timing was, you know, spot on. And I think that blew up the receptivity of it. You know, the amount of monthly, monthly users we're getting on the site is incredible, right? And, and the fact that there are, you know, Bloomberg chat groups about truthflation data, I think is amazing. And so I think, you know, the receptivity blew us, blew us quite considerably. I think that on the flip side, where we've been desperately trying to keep up with the high demand

• 29:04Speaker 02

  is about how do we Provide the data in the most usable format to be able to

• 29:12Speaker 02

  be able for consumers to digest the data as much as they possibly can. And so it's keeping up with the usability of it. It's keeping up with the volume of data. Can we find other data sets? Can we find things that explain the movements of inflation? So what's the housing supply? What's building material costs? For example, all these types of aspects is where we've been focused on. And that's, that's been the flip side of it is getting the demand to drive that as much as we possibly can with the resources that we've got.

• 29:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, what does success look like in terms of 20 years from now? Truflation is quote, quote, successful. Does it replace BLS? Is it just the best alternative resource? Is there a bunch of financial products that are built off of this? Like, how do you think about success for the product itself?

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Yes, I think, look, that there are multiple problems for success for us. One is, um, how do we get more into products, especially in the DeFi world? And, but also in the traditional finance world. So how do we get our data ingrained in products and developments that's happening around? That's one aspect of it. I think the tokenization ability certainly plays, plays very nicely into our data set. I think the second aspect of it, yes, is that the data becomes in due course, not overnight, but I think in due course becomes the gold standard for inflation. That is our aim. That's what we've always been designed to do.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  And we certainly hope the market will follow us on a journey to achieve that over a period of time. It's, it's, we're going to need more credibility. We have to get people to become more familiar with the data and so forth. But yes, that's very much the longer term application. I think that the third thing for us is then also not only trying to get a gold standard and also becoming more ingrained in products. But I think also is, you know, driving the applications, the analytics of the data. How do we, how do we customize this a lot more? How do we become more bespoke and apply all the data requirements that everyone wants to do? And that's going to require not only Getting the analytical and using AI a lot more than what we already are using them today,

• 31:22Speaker 02

  but more also data sets. What other data sets can we build into this that is that's far reaching? And then become, you know, potentially a marketplace where people buy and trade and create custom indexes of our data sets by combining, I don't know, oil commodities with inflation data or, you know, wheat production with temperature and rain data in Arkansas versus the price of of carbs in grocery retailing, for example. So I, you know, the the applications, that's sort of where we're looking at where that future becomes, the success looks like from a three-point approach.

• 31:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Makes complete sense to me. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Truflation?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're you can go to trueflation.com. You'll find the websites there. Contact us is on there if you need anything from us. You can go to our Telegram account or you can go to our Twitter account, both at Truflation, or you can go to our LinkedIn account. But yeah, any questions, we're welcome. Any ideas, suggestions? Love to hear from everybody.

• 32:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Well, I appreciate it very much, Oliver. It's been fantastic. I always learn something. We talk, and I think people will learn from this conversation as well. So we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Thanks a lot for having me, Anthony. It's been a great conversation.